From corey at joule-energy.com Tue Jan 3 14:09:50 2017 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:09:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Quality Test Message-ID: The contract for one of our upcoming utility-scale projects includes a requirement for recording/analyzing power quality: "Submit a report that includes AC voltage, current, impedance, frequency, the maximum and minimum of ranges continuously during the 72 hour period with intentional and daily start up and shut down trials. Devices such as a Candura Power Pro or Power Site can be used to analyze power." Does anyone have experience with either of these devices and can comment on their use? Or else can you recommend a similar device that will fulfill these requirements? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 00:30:22 2017 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 00:30:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Quality Test Message-ID: Greetings Corey, I do not have experience with the specific devices referenced in the contract language you have cited, but can offer the names of a couple other manufacturers who make power quality (PQ) analyzers and loggers/recorders. Here are three: Power Monitors, Inc. (PMI), Virginia, USA Radian Research, Inc., Indiana & Mississippi, USA AEMC Instruments (Chauvin Arnoux), New Hampshire, USA These companies produce gear which many utilities and line contractor firms use in their PQ testing programs. I have worked with some of the gear from PMI and Radian Research, but probably not their latest models. If it is unlikely that your company would have an ongoing need for a PQ logger it may consider hiring a local/regional PQ test company/contractor (or appropriately equipped engineering firm) to fulfill this requirement in the contract you have mentioned. They could potentially perform the testing, review the logged data, and prepare a report for less than what a new PQ analyzer logger unit and software would cost your company. If your company does purchase new gear some manufacturers or their regional representative may come out and train/assist/demo the unit with your technician/team. SEI Professional Services may be of help on this issue too. They have members on the RE-wrenches list as well. On larger or complex projects I like the practice of PQ testing and data logging at a project site before the system installation as well as during commissioning activities. The pre-install data can be helpful in seeing potential PQ issues before work begins. The pre-install data can also be used later for comparative purposes if there is any concern or dispute regarding PQ issues recognized post install. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com ---- Original Message Below ---- [RE-wrenches] Power Quality Test Corey Shalanski corey at joule-energy.com Tue Jan 3 11:09:50 PST 2017 The contract for one of our upcoming utility-scale projects includes a requirement for recording/analyzing power quality: "Submit a report that includes AC voltage, current, impedance, frequency, the maximum and minimum of ranges continuously during the 72 hour period with intentional and daily start up and shut down trials. Devices such as a Candura Power Pro or Power Site can be used to analyze power." Does anyone have experience with either of these devices and can comment on their use? Or else can you recommend a similar device that will fulfill these requirements? Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Jan 4 12:15:41 2017 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 10:15:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stripped screws... Fronius IG Plus PV terminals Message-ID: Happy New Year Wrenches! Wondering if anyone has had issues with stripping screws for PV (or other...AC/gr) set-screw terminals that are integral to an inverter? In this case specifically, a Fronius IG Plus 11.4-3. A torque screwdrivers was not used at this point as it happened as the wires were initially being terminated. The ones that did strip, did so with noticeably less (hand torque) pressure than was applied to other terminals in same inverters that snugged up just fine. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:28:35 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:28:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stripped screws... Fronius IG Plus PV terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Every once in awhile we have had issues with cross tread or striped threads on screws, this happens when the screws are backed out to far and dont line up correctly and this causes the problems, I have had this with SMA, Fronius and Outback along with combiners, I get called to fix this when someone does this, what I have had to do is to take the plastic covers off and swap screws and clamps to get them where they need to be. I do not recommend this but when in Rome. FyI dont let anyone use powered screw drivers as this can cause some of these issues. Jerry On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 7:15 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Happy New Year Wrenches! > > Wondering if anyone has had issues with stripping screws for PV (or > other...AC/gr) set-screw terminals that are integral to an inverter? In > this case specifically, a Fronius IG Plus 11.4-3. > > A torque screwdrivers was not used at this point as it happened as the > wires were initially being terminated. The ones that did strip, did so with > noticeably less (hand torque) pressure than was applied to other terminals > in same inverters that snugged up just fine. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Jan 5 13:54:39 2017 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 11:54:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stripped screws... Fronius IG Plus PV terminals Message-ID: <20170105115439.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.28dfe42885.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 13:15:20 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 13:15:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Bridge microinverters power usage Message-ID: <006101d26848$d7eea140$87cbe3c0$@com> I have a net metered system using six AUO Unison PM 250W modules with built in SolarBridge microinverters. It is a 1.5kW system installed in late 2011. . Homeowner called today saying her PV production meter (standard analog EZ read kWh meter) has gone backwards. She read 7,006 kWh on 12/21/2016 and read 7,000 kWh this morning 15 days later. . She says she watches her system pretty closely and she has never seen kWh numbers that have gone backwards. . The site does not get much winter production at all due to clouds, snow and low path of the sun behind a hillside - we knew all this 6 yrs ago at the site survey so little to no production during late Dec., early Jan. is not a problem. . My question is: Do the SolarBridge microinverters draw 16 to 20 Watts 24/7? That would account for the 6kWh usage over the 15 days assuming little to no PV production due to snow and shade. . Other ideas? Thanks for the help! Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 10 17:30:43 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:30:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Message-ID: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> Greetings All; I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the frame by high winds. Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right through the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was still tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top down clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back of the module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a contact at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I have. First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing from the back side, and Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older modules. I'll share some pics when available. As always thanks in advance for your comments, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Tue Jan 10 18:38:45 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:38:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> References: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> Message-ID: <3d2e31c2ebb281b61586c9b38181277a.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Hi Ray, I don't have much advice, but I can tell you that we have a couple of ground mounted arrays at a local college (along the ocean) on the same DPW high wind rated racks. The college chose to buy Chinese modules from a competitor instead of my recommendation and one of the modules, after about three years of being installed, gave way the same way, literally ripping the washers and hardware through the thin aluminum frame. I did tell them when I did the installation that they should check every few years that all hardware was tight, as wind, over time, vibrates the frame and I feel better when the client watches their array for weak points. It is possible over time that the hardware worked free a bit and allowed the wind to do what it did. Not sure, but I've only seen it this one time in 29 years. We always torque our hardware to DPW specs. Daryl > Greetings All; > > I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial > clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the > frame by high winds. > Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right > through the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" > bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was > still tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a > top down clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the > back of the module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. > In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a > contact at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support > line I have. > First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing > from the back side, and > Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. > One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total > destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go > yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef > it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older > modules. I'll share some pics when available. > > As always thanks in advance for your comments, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 10 18:49:52 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:49:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <3d2e31c2ebb281b61586c9b38181277a.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> <3d2e31c2ebb281b61586c9b38181277a.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Daryl; I wonder if the DP&W rack is allowing some bending or torqueing of the module frame, that over time with thin aluminum causes metal fatigue, cracking, and finally total failure. Funny both of our isolated failures involved the same rack. Also, I did more sluething and these modules were the thinner (31 mm) 2.5 frame from Solarworld. They've since gone back to a 33 mm frame; version 4.0. I also found in the specs that the back pressure these modules can handle is 64 PSF, so I can't believe we exceeded that. In dry, cold air at 9000 ft elevation, even winds over 100 mph aren't half that pressure. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/10/2017 4:38 PM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > Hi Ray, > I don't have much advice, but I can tell you that we have a couple of > ground mounted arrays at a local college (along the ocean) on the same > DPW high wind rated racks. The college chose to buy Chinese modules > from a competitor instead of my recommendation and one of the modules, > after about three years of being installed, gave way the same way, > literally ripping the washers and hardware through the thin aluminum > frame. I did tell them when I did the installation that they should > check every few years that all hardware was tight, as wind, over time, > vibrates the frame and I feel better when the client watches their > array for weak points. It is possible over time that the hardware > worked free a bit and allowed the wind to do what it did. Not sure, but > I've only seen it this one time in 29 years. We always torque our > hardware to DPW specs. > > Daryl > > >> Greetings All; >> >> I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial >> clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the >> frame by high winds. >> Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right >> through the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" >> bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was >> still tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a >> top down clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the >> back of the module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. >> In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a >> contact at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support >> line I have. >> First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing >> from the back side, and >> Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. >> One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total >> destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go >> yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef >> it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older >> modules. I'll share some pics when available. >> >> As always thanks in advance for your comments, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Jan 10 19:30:43 2017 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 19:30:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage References: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray We use a lot of SW, lost our first system this last year on a ballasted roof mount during a hurricane. Good Solar World contact below, if he is unable to help he should be able to point you in the right direction. Patience. Mark Magallanes Account Development Representative Solar World Americas Hillsboro, Oregon, USA Office: 503.693.5204 thx peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Walters" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 5:30 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage > Greetings All; > > I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial > clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the frame > by high winds. > Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right through > the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" bolt > hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was still > tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top down > clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back of the > module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. > In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a contact > at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I have. > First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing from > the back side, and > Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. > One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total > destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go > yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef > it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older > modules. I'll share some pics when available. > > As always thanks in advance for your comments, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Tue Jan 10 20:26:19 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 17:26:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> References: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> Message-ID: <664a630a561dac4f7a44dc075d9313c0@mail.gmail.com> Ray: I can't say I have a solution to your problem, but I can share some photos of two similar failures in case you can glean any information from them. See: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_dama ge.html The first failure is a Zomeworks. On the same exact spot we tried a DPW TOP. Neither could withstand a funnel effect provided by the topography. At the same location we installed a roof mount as well that has never failed (to my knowledge, we don't service that customer anymore). I think if you have terrain that is tilted in the correct direction a mount that hugs the ground is best. That is a lay opinion, however. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Greetings All; I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the frame by high winds. Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right through the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was still tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top down clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back of the module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a contact at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I have. First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing from the back side, and Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older modules. I'll share some pics when available. As always thanks in advance for your comments, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 10 23:31:41 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 21:31:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <664a630a561dac4f7a44dc075d9313c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> <664a630a561dac4f7a44dc075d9313c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1521ae77-5313-56da-fded-17e250c14428@solarray.com> Hi William; Your link had a glitch, I think this should be it? http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_damage.html We have DP&W's high wind option which bumped the pole size from 4" to 6" along with heavier hardware throughout. I haven't been to the site yet, but the techs were reporting just the module failed and the rack is still good. I'm going up next week and I'll try to figure this out. This site also has a funnel effect as you mentioned. Higher ridges to the North and South, and this smaller peak between with our rack almost right at the top. Roof mounts actually do seem to be much better; the wind doesn't get behind it, and if the array is set back from the edge, the side edge of the array isn't getting pummeled. Our failure occurred with an angled wind, not perpendicular. Your rack failures look also to have had uneven loading: the way it twisted that top rail off. I almost wonder if these racks aren't hitting some resonance that's causing the rack to twist and torque back and forth repeatedly. You can grab the corner of the array and "pluck" it, then watch it bounce back and forth: that's the simple way to determine its harmonic resonance. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/10/2017 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: > Ray: > > I can't say I have a solution to your problem, but I can share some photos > of two similar failures in case you can glean any information from them. > See: > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_dama > ge.html > > The first failure is a Zomeworks. On the same exact spot we tried a DPW > TOP. Neither could withstand a funnel effect provided by the topography. > > At the same location we installed a roof mount as well that has never > failed (to my knowledge, we don't service that customer anymore). > > I think if you have terrain that is tilted in the correct direction a > mount that hugs the ground is best. That is a lay opinion, however. > > William > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage > > Greetings All; > > I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial > clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the frame > by high winds. > Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right through > the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" > bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was still > tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top down > clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back of the > module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. > In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a contact > at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I have. > First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing from > the back side, and Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. > One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total > destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go > yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef > it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older > modules. I'll share some pics when available. > > As always thanks in advance for your comments, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 23:54:46 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:54:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racks. Message-ID: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> I can't find the link to Jeff randles new rack company? Can someone help me out Thx Jay Peltz power. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 10, 2017, at 8:31 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Hi William; > > Your link had a glitch, I think this should be it? > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_damage.html > > We have DP&W's high wind option which bumped the pole size from 4" to 6" along with heavier hardware throughout. I haven't been to the site yet, but the techs were reporting just the module failed and the rack is still good. I'm going up next week and I'll try to figure this out. This site also has a funnel effect as you mentioned. Higher ridges to the North and South, and this smaller peak between with our rack almost right at the top. > Roof mounts actually do seem to be much better; the wind doesn't get behind it, and if the array is set back from the edge, the side edge of the array isn't getting pummeled. > Our failure occurred with an angled wind, not perpendicular. Your rack failures look also to have had uneven loading: the way it twisted that top rail off. I almost wonder if these racks aren't hitting some resonance that's causing the rack to twist and torque back and forth repeatedly. You can grab the corner of the array and "pluck" it, then watch it bounce back and forth: that's the simple way to determine its harmonic resonance. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > >> On 1/10/2017 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Ray: >> >> I can't say I have a solution to your problem, but I can share some photos >> of two similar failures in case you can glean any information from them. >> See: >> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_dama >> ge.html >> >> The first failure is a Zomeworks. On the same exact spot we tried a DPW >> TOP. Neither could withstand a funnel effect provided by the topography. >> >> At the same location we installed a roof mount as well that has never >> failed (to my knowledge, we don't service that customer anymore). >> >> I think if you have terrain that is tilted in the correct direction a >> mount that hugs the ground is best. That is a lay opinion, however. >> >> William >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:31 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage >> >> Greetings All; >> >> I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial >> clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the frame >> by high winds. >> Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right through >> the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" >> bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was still >> tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top down >> clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back of the >> module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. >> In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a contact >> at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I have. >> First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing from >> the back side, and Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. >> One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total >> destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go >> yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef >> it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older >> modules. I'll share some pics when available. >> >> As always thanks in advance for your comments, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm >> l >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Wed Jan 11 07:51:13 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 07:51:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racks. In-Reply-To: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> References: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2aa147f9053e04b6d5fedde41b66b7d5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> He changed the name to RC Fab about a year ago, but when I last talked with him they were changing the name again. Check RC Fab in Albuquerque, NM > I can't find the link to Jeff randles new rack company? > > Can someone help me out > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 10, 2017, at 8:31 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> Hi William; >> >> Your link had a glitch, I think this should be it? >> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_damage.html >> >> We have DP&W's high wind option which bumped the pole size from 4" to 6" >> along with heavier hardware throughout. I haven't been to the site yet, >> but the techs were reporting just the module failed and the rack is >> still good. I'm going up next week and I'll try to figure this out. >> This site also has a funnel effect as you mentioned. Higher ridges to >> the North and South, and this smaller peak between with our rack almost >> right at the top. >> Roof mounts actually do seem to be much better; the wind doesn't get >> behind it, and if the array is set back from the edge, the side edge of >> the array isn't getting pummeled. >> Our failure occurred with an angled wind, not perpendicular. Your rack >> failures look also to have had uneven loading: the way it twisted that >> top rail off. I almost wonder if these racks aren't hitting some >> resonance that's causing the rack to twist and torque back and forth >> repeatedly. You can grab the corner of the array and "pluck" it, then >> watch it bounce back and forth: that's the simple way to determine its >> harmonic resonance. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >>> On 1/10/2017 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> Ray: >>> >>> I can't say I have a solution to your problem, but I can share some >>> photos >>> of two similar failures in case you can glean any information from >>> them. >>> See: >>> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_dama >>> ge.html >>> >>> The first failure is a Zomeworks. On the same exact spot we tried a >>> DPW >>> TOP. Neither could withstand a funnel effect provided by the >>> topography. >>> >>> At the same location we installed a roof mount as well that has never >>> failed (to my knowledge, we don't service that customer anymore). >>> >>> I think if you have terrain that is tilted in the correct direction a >>> mount that hugs the ground is best. That is a lay opinion, however. >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >>> Behalf Of Ray Walters >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:31 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage >>> >>> Greetings All; >>> >>> I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial >>> clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the >>> frame >>> by high winds. >>> Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right >>> through >>> the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" >>> bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was >>> still >>> tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top >>> down >>> clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back of >>> the >>> module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. >>> In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a >>> contact >>> at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I >>> have. >>> First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing >>> from >>> the back side, and Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. >>> One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds >>> (total >>> destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go >>> yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to >>> beef >>> it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older >>> modules. I'll share some pics when available. >>> >>> As always thanks in advance for your comments, >>> >>> -- >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm >>> l >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Wed Jan 11 08:03:23 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:03:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racks. Jeff Randalls info In-Reply-To: <2aa147f9053e04b6d5fedde41b66b7d5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> <2aa147f9053e04b6d5fedde41b66b7d5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: Jeff Randall RC FAB Corporation 2615 Princeton Dr NE Albuquerque, NM 87107 505-503-6459 Cell: 505-288-5552 > He changed the name to RC Fab about a year ago, but when I last talked > with him they were changing the name again. Check RC Fab in Albuquerque, > NM > > > >> I can't find the link to Jeff randles new rack company? >> >> Can someone help me out >> >> Thx >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 10, 2017, at 8:31 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>> >>> Hi William; >>> >>> Your link had a glitch, I think this should be it? >>> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_damage.html >>> >>> We have DP&W's high wind option which bumped the pole size from 4" to >>> 6" >>> along with heavier hardware throughout. I haven't been to the site >>> yet, >>> but the techs were reporting just the module failed and the rack is >>> still good. I'm going up next week and I'll try to figure this out. >>> This site also has a funnel effect as you mentioned. Higher ridges to >>> the North and South, and this smaller peak between with our rack almost >>> right at the top. >>> Roof mounts actually do seem to be much better; the wind doesn't get >>> behind it, and if the array is set back from the edge, the side edge >>> of >>> the array isn't getting pummeled. >>> Our failure occurred with an angled wind, not perpendicular. Your >>> rack >>> failures look also to have had uneven loading: the way it twisted that >>> top rail off. I almost wonder if these racks aren't hitting some >>> resonance that's causing the rack to twist and torque back and forth >>> repeatedly. You can grab the corner of the array and "pluck" it, then >>> watch it bounce back and forth: that's the simple way to determine its >>> harmonic resonance. >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>>> On 1/10/2017 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >>>> Ray: >>>> >>>> I can't say I have a solution to your problem, but I can share some >>>> photos >>>> of two similar failures in case you can glean any information from >>>> them. >>>> See: >>>> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_dama >>>> ge.html >>>> >>>> The first failure is a Zomeworks. On the same exact spot we tried a >>>> DPW >>>> TOP. Neither could withstand a funnel effect provided by the >>>> topography. >>>> >>>> At the same location we installed a roof mount as well that has never >>>> failed (to my knowledge, we don't service that customer anymore). >>>> >>>> I think if you have terrain that is tilted in the correct direction a >>>> mount that hugs the ground is best. That is a lay opinion, however. >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lic 773985 >>>> millersolar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Ray Walters >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:31 PM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage >>>> >>>> Greetings All; >>>> >>>> I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial >>>> clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the >>>> frame >>>> by high winds. >>>> Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right >>>> through >>>> the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" >>>> bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was >>>> still >>>> tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top >>>> down >>>> clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back of >>>> the >>>> module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. >>>> In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a >>>> contact >>>> at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I >>>> have. >>>> First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing >>>> from >>>> the back side, and Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. >>>> One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds >>>> (total >>>> destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go >>>> yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to >>>> beef >>>> it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older >>>> modules. I'll share some pics when available. >>>> >>>> As always thanks in advance for your comments, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> R.Ray Walters >>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>>> Licensed Master Electrician >>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm >>>> l >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jan 11 09:49:25 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 06:49:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racks. In-Reply-To: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> References: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e9b10a5-5999-813a-49ba-5f685a35d848@psln.com> http://www.solarrackworks.com/ All of Jeff's contact info is there Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net Solar powered since 1982 On 1/10/2017 8:54 PM, Jay wrote: > I can't find the link to Jeff randles new rack company? > > Can someone help me out > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jan 11 10:09:53 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 07:09:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racks, wind In-Reply-To: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> References: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f34c3d1-8297-19a3-8f2b-81037ce10ed9@psln.com> Also, gotta say Jeff is building very high quality TOP racks. We've installed 7-8 of them since his "departure" from DPW, now Preformed Line Products. Welds, materials, powder coating are top notch. Right at first, as you can imagine getting started again, there were a couple small details that were a little wonky but they seem to have it wired now. Ship times might be a little better too. William, curious how old some of the wind ravaged racks are? I haven't seen that 2X2" material being used for awhile on a rack that size. I used to have some problems with snow when they were using that 2X2" square steel tubing...that was several years ago, like 10? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/10/2017 8:54 PM, Jay wrote: > I can't find the link to Jeff randles new rack company? > > Can someone help me out > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 10, 2017, at 8:31 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> Hi William; >> >> Your link had a glitch, I think this should be it? >> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_damage.html >> >> We have DP&W's high wind option which bumped the pole size from 4" to 6" along with heavier hardware throughout. I haven't been to the site yet, but the techs were reporting just the module failed and the rack is still good. I'm going up next week and I'll try to figure this out. This site also has a funnel effect as you mentioned. Higher ridges to the North and South, and this smaller peak between with our rack almost right at the top. >> Roof mounts actually do seem to be much better; the wind doesn't get behind it, and if the array is set back from the edge, the side edge of the array isn't getting pummeled. >> Our failure occurred with an angled wind, not perpendicular. Your rack failures look also to have had uneven loading: the way it twisted that top rail off. I almost wonder if these racks aren't hitting some resonance that's causing the rack to twist and torque back and forth repeatedly. You can grab the corner of the array and "pluck" it, then watch it bounce back and forth: that's the simple way to determine its harmonic resonance. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >>> On 1/10/2017 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> Ray: >>> >>> I can't say I have a solution to your problem, but I can share some photos >>> of two similar failures in case you can glean any information from them. >>> See: >>> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_dama >>> ge.html >>> >>> The first failure is a Zomeworks. On the same exact spot we tried a DPW >>> TOP. Neither could withstand a funnel effect provided by the topography. >>> >>> At the same location we installed a roof mount as well that has never >>> failed (to my knowledge, we don't service that customer anymore). >>> >>> I think if you have terrain that is tilted in the correct direction a >>> mount that hugs the ground is best. That is a lay opinion, however. >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jan 11 10:20:01 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 07:20:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <664a630a561dac4f7a44dc075d9313c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> <664a630a561dac4f7a44dc075d9313c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47533a74-a5ff-334a-3cb9-20f829380cb7@psln.com> William, Looking closely at your picture of the rack failure with the tower in the background, it looks like there is some discoloration/staining/rust? at the main spar center bolt. I went back to some of my older installs to discover this happening and on a couple of them was able to rock the rack E-W more than I should have been able to. I think this was discussed on the list a ways back, you may be aware of it that that center bolt needs to be reefed on to prevent any movement. If the hole in that main spar was compromised and the rack was able to shift back and forth...not sure if that would contribute to failure of the kind you experienced. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/10/2017 5:26 PM, William Miller wrote: > Ray: > > I can't say I have a solution to your problem, but I can share some photos > of two similar failures in case you can glean any information from them. > See: > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_dama > ge.html > > The first failure is a Zomeworks. On the same exact spot we tried a DPW > TOP. Neither could withstand a funnel effect provided by the topography. > > At the same location we installed a roof mount as well that has never > failed (to my knowledge, we don't service that customer anymore). > > I think if you have terrain that is tilted in the correct direction a > mount that hugs the ground is best. That is a lay opinion, however. > > William > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage > > Greetings All; > > I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial > clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the frame > by high winds. > Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right through > the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" > bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was still > tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top down > clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back of the > module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. > In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a contact > at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I have. > First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing from > the back side, and Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. > One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total > destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go > yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef > it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older > modules. I'll share some pics when available. > > As always thanks in advance for your comments, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From solarwks at cybermesa.com Wed Jan 11 13:04:37 2017 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:04:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racks. In-Reply-To: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> References: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, here is the website for Solarrackworks, Jeff Randall's new business. http://solarrackworks.com/ On 1/10/2017 9:54 PM, Jay wrote: > I can't find the link to Jeff randles new rack company? > > Can someone help me out > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 10, 2017, at 8:31 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> Hi William; >> >> Your link had a glitch, I think this should be it? >> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_damage.html >> >> We have DP&W's high wind option which bumped the pole size from 4" to 6" along with heavier hardware throughout. I haven't been to the site yet, but the techs were reporting just the module failed and the rack is still good. I'm going up next week and I'll try to figure this out. This site also has a funnel effect as you mentioned. Higher ridges to the North and South, and this smaller peak between with our rack almost right at the top. >> Roof mounts actually do seem to be much better; the wind doesn't get behind it, and if the array is set back from the edge, the side edge of the array isn't getting pummeled. >> Our failure occurred with an angled wind, not perpendicular. Your rack failures look also to have had uneven loading: the way it twisted that top rail off. I almost wonder if these racks aren't hitting some resonance that's causing the rack to twist and torque back and forth repeatedly. You can grab the corner of the array and "pluck" it, then watch it bounce back and forth: that's the simple way to determine its harmonic resonance. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >>> On 1/10/2017 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> Ray: >>> >>> I can't say I have a solution to your problem, but I can share some photos >>> of two similar failures in case you can glean any information from them. >>> See: >>> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_dama >>> ge.html >>> >>> The first failure is a Zomeworks. On the same exact spot we tried a DPW >>> TOP. Neither could withstand a funnel effect provided by the topography. >>> >>> At the same location we installed a roof mount as well that has never >>> failed (to my knowledge, we don't service that customer anymore). >>> >>> I think if you have terrain that is tilted in the correct direction a >>> mount that hugs the ground is best. That is a lay opinion, however. >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >>> Behalf Of Ray Walters >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:31 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage >>> >>> Greetings All; >>> >>> I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial >>> clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the frame >>> by high winds. >>> Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right through >>> the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" >>> bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was still >>> tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top down >>> clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back of the >>> module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. >>> In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a contact >>> at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I have. >>> First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing from >>> the back side, and Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. >>> One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total >>> destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go >>> yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef >>> it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older >>> modules. I'll share some pics when available. >>> >>> As always thanks in advance for your comments, >>> >>> -- >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm >>> l >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > From ray at solarray.com Wed Jan 11 13:26:02 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:26:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <47533a74-a5ff-334a-3cb9-20f829380cb7@psln.com> References: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> <664a630a561dac4f7a44dc075d9313c0@mail.gmail.com> <47533a74-a5ff-334a-3cb9-20f829380cb7@psln.com> Message-ID: <0bb4b834-bc76-f480-86dd-b96ce6574bc7@solarray.com> Bill; Great point, I have had the exact same trouble not being able to torque that center bolt down. I went back on a DP&W rack that was rocking E-W as you described, and brought a big socket (1-1/16"?) and my new Milwaukee 1/2" impact driver. It only took a 1/4 turn more, but what a difference: completely tight. I don't know what the torque spec on that bolt is, but its obviously more than I can do with regular wrenches. My Pocket Ref shows 257 ft-lbs for a 3/4" bolt. I'm suspecting that might be part of the trouble on the rack that I just reported module failure on. If that rack can start rocking back and forth in high wind, it can really cause damage. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/11/2017 8:20 AM, frenergy wrote: > William, > > Looking closely at your picture of the rack failure with > the tower in the background, it looks like there is some > discoloration/staining/rust? at the main spar center bolt. I went > back to some of my older installs to discover this happening and on a > couple of them was able to rock the rack E-W more than I should have > been able to. I think this was discussed on the list a ways back, you > may be aware of it that that center bolt needs to be reefed on to > prevent any movement. If the hole in that main spar was compromised > and the rack was able to shift back and forth...not sure if that would > contribute to failure of the kind you experienced. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 1/10/2017 5:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Ray: >> >> I can't say I have a solution to your problem, but I can share some >> photos >> of two similar failures in case you can glean any information from them. >> See: >> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wind_damage/_wind_dama >> >> ge.html >> >> The first failure is a Zomeworks. On the same exact spot we tried a DPW >> TOP. Neither could withstand a funnel effect provided by the >> topography. >> >> At the same location we installed a roof mount as well that has never >> failed (to my knowledge, we don't service that customer anymore). >> >> I think if you have terrain that is tilted in the correct direction a >> mount that hugs the ground is best. That is a lay opinion, however. >> >> William >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:31 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage >> >> Greetings All; >> >> I just had the dreaded call from one of my higher profile commercial >> clients: a remote radio repeater station had modules ripped off the >> frame >> by high winds. >> Two SW285s were damaged. The wind was strong enough to rip right >> through >> the aluminum side rails. We had used the proper stainless 1/4" >> bolt hardware with washers on the inside, etc. All the hardware was >> still >> tight, it just tore the aluminum past the washers. This is not a top >> down >> clamp system, but uses bolts through the mounting holes on the back >> of the >> module. This was all on a DP&W rack with high wind option. >> In 20 years in business, I've never seen that happen. Is there a >> contact >> at Solar World? I'm not getting through on the tech support line I >> have. >> First, I need to know what the wind rating is on the modules blowing >> from >> the back side, and Second, a suggested fix for the remaining modules. >> One module was completely ripped from the frame and thrown 30 yds (total >> destruction), a 2nd one has cracks in the Aluminum, but has not let go >> yet. I was thinking of adding some angle aluminum on the inside to beef >> it up. IMHO, the frames are pretty thin aluminum compared to older >> modules. I'll share some pics when available. >> >> As always thanks in advance for your comments, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 14:42:22 2017 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:42:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Message-ID: Hi Ray, Have you checked the torquing on all the other bolts? My company's had a few projects where some modules blew off - it's always been due to over-torquing of the bolts. Steven Lawrence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jan 11 15:08:24 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:08:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469f77c2-ee9a-190a-cbc3-60820d531a72@solarray.com> HI Steven; Do you mean the bolts were over torqued and then later broke? Here's some pics that just came in of the damage. Hardware looks good, just ripped the module's framing. The old Solarworld 2.5 frame not only was thinner (31mm) and so could possibly flex more, but it had less metal to bolt to. Their newer 4.0 frame is 33 mm thick, but also appears to have a wider flange to bolt to. I still have not had any contact from Solar World. Not good. I've been installing their stuff since the ARCO days, so I need some support for the first time in decades. Solar World Reps are you out there? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/11/2017 12:42 PM, Steven Lawrence wrote: > Hi Ray, > > Have you checked the torquing on all the other bolts? My company's > had a few projects where some modules blew off - it's always been due > to over-torquing of the bolts. > > Steven Lawrence > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oljjkjadieafaihj.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95282 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: iicbadobcjjnfpmc.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 52143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jan 11 23:07:34 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 20:07:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <469f77c2-ee9a-190a-cbc3-60820d531a72@solarray.com> References: <469f77c2-ee9a-190a-cbc3-60820d531a72@solarray.com> Message-ID: Let's see, we're all on the same page here, right? The 33 vs 31 mm refers to the frame height not the thickness of the frame material where fastener pulled through. Also, hang in there with getting help from Solarworld. They have given me exceptional help in the past...not sure if they can/will in this case, but..... Bill On 1/11/2017 12:08 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > HI Steven; > > Do you mean the bolts were over torqued and then later broke? Here's > some pics that just came in of the damage. Hardware looks good, just > ripped the module's framing. The old Solarworld 2.5 frame not only > was thinner (31mm) and so could possibly flex more, but it had less > metal to bolt to. Their newer 4.0 frame is 33 mm thick, but also > appears to have a wider flange to bolt to. I still have not had any > contact from Solar World. Not good. I've been installing their stuff > since the ARCO days, so I need some support for the first time in > decades. Solar World Reps are you out there? > > > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 1/11/2017 12:42 PM, Steven Lawrence wrote: >> Hi Ray, >> >> Have you checked the torquing on all the other bolts? My company's >> had a few projects where some modules blew off - it's always been due >> to over-torquing of the bolts. >> >> Steven Lawrence >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 95282 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 52143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 12:18:33 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:18:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <0bb4b834-bc76-f480-86dd-b96ce6574bc7@solarray.com> References: <42afcd4a-5817-9d99-186b-edea799c81fb@solarray.com> <664a630a561dac4f7a44dc075d9313c0@mail.gmail.com> <47533a74-a5ff-334a-3cb9-20f829380cb7@psln.com> <0bb4b834-bc76-f480-86dd-b96ce6574bc7@solarray.com> Message-ID: <2BE0D5F1-A98F-43FC-A167-3AE863DD9707@gmail.com> HI Ray, Like some of you, I’ve been installing DPW racks since 90’s. And I think this center bolt design isn’t well suited to the much larger racks we have today. You can tighten that bolt up tight as you want, but any tolerance and there is always some will allow it to move. This movement rounds the hole, creating more space and more movement. Its why they have gone to the tie down kit for the larger racks. I’ve also seen these racks broken from side wind loads. I use General Specialties for larger racks. Im not saying they are perfect, but I don’t worry about side wind loading or having to use tie down kits. And as to the modules exiting the rack, well all the older smaller modules used 4 holes to mount, and had thicker frames. Now we are using substantially larger modules with same 4 holes and thinner frames, at least the “L” part. I”ll be curious to see what fixes you guys come up with or if the OEM’s change things or if the rack folks offer some added parts to address this issue. Jay Peltz Power > On Jan 11, 2017, at 10:26 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Bill; > > Great point, I have had the exact same trouble not being able to torque that center bolt down. I went back on a DP&W rack that was rocking E-W as you described, and brought a big socket (1-1/16"?) and my new Milwaukee 1/2" impact driver. It only took a 1/4 turn more, but what a difference: completely tight. I don't know what the torque spec on that bolt is, but its obviously more than I can do with regular wrenches. My Pocket Ref shows 257 ft-lbs for a 3/4" bolt. I'm suspecting that might be part of the trouble on the rack that I just reported module failure on. If that rack can start rocking back and forth in high wind, it can really cause damage. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > > From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 12 16:16:27 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:16:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: References: <469f77c2-ee9a-190a-cbc3-60820d531a72@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill; Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing my information. As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? *Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations.* I'm taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc BSME 1988, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/11/2017 9:07 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Let's see, we're all on the same page here, right? The 33 vs 31 mm > refers to the frame height not the thickness of the frame material > where fastener pulled through. > > Also, hang in there with getting help from Solarworld. They have > given me exceptional help in the past...not sure if they can/will in > this case, but..... > Bill > > > On 1/11/2017 12:08 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> HI Steven; >> >> Do you mean the bolts were over torqued and then later broke? Here's >> some pics that just came in of the damage. Hardware looks good, just >> ripped the module's framing. The old Solarworld 2.5 frame not only >> was thinner (31mm) and so could possibly flex more, but it had less >> metal to bolt to. Their newer 4.0 frame is 33 mm thick, but also >> appears to have a wider flange to bolt to. I still have not had any >> contact from Solar World. Not good. I've been installing their >> stuff since the ARCO days, so I need some support for the first time >> in decades. Solar World Reps are you out there? >> >> >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 1/11/2017 12:42 PM, Steven Lawrence wrote: >>> Hi Ray, >>> >>> Have you checked the torquing on all the other bolts? My company's >>> had a few projects where some modules blew off - it's always been >>> due to over-torquing of the bolts. >>> >>> Steven Lawrence >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 95282 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 52143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at OasisMontana.com Thu Jan 12 16:39:09 2017 From: info at OasisMontana.com (Chris @ The Oasis) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:39:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky Mountain front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not unusual with 150 to 175 MPH gusts. The system was installed in 2011 (with Sanyo 215W modules). No problems yet; we certainly over-engineered the racks, knowing what high winds there are! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com _____ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sefchick, Steve Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Hi Bill; Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing my information. As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations. I'm taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc BSME 1988, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/11/2017 9:07 PM, frenergy wrote: Let's see, we're all on the same page here, right? The 33 vs 31 mm refers to the frame height not the thickness of the frame material where fastener pulled through. Also, hang in there with getting help from Solarworld. They have given me exceptional help in the past...not sure if they can/will in this case, but..... Bill On 1/11/2017 12:08 PM, Ray Walters wrote: HI Steven; Do you mean the bolts were over torqued and then later broke? Here's some pics that just came in of the damage. Hardware looks good, just ripped the module's framing. The old Solarworld 2.5 frame not only was thinner (31mm) and so could possibly flex more, but it had less metal to bolt to. Their newer 4.0 frame is 33 mm thick, but also appears to have a wider flange to bolt to. I still have not had any contact from Solar World. Not good. I've been installing their stuff since the ARCO days, so I need some support for the first time in decades. Solar World Reps are you out there? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/11/2017 12:42 PM, Steven Lawrence wrote: Hi Ray, Have you checked the torquing on all the other bolts? My company's had a few projects where some modules blew off - it's always been due to over-torquing of the bolts. Steven Lawrence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ATT00348.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95282 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ATT00351.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 52143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Dana at solarwork.com Thu Jan 12 17:14:37 2017 From: Dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:14:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: References: <469f77c2-ee9a-190a-cbc3-60820d531a72@solarray.com> Message-ID: <002101d26d21$455bd400$d0137c00$@com> At a 13,200' elevation installation in W CO we had an anemometer lose its cups at 135MPH. The SWWP Air lost its blades at some point, but the Solarex modules stayed on their rack. The NWS said that this was typical of the jet stream touching down to ground level [if you consider 13.2K Ft ground level]. It seems that at a high elevation this could be a much greater possibility than say sea level. How high an elevation install was this? and was it subject to a ventury effect between 2 opposing canyon or valley walls, like on a canyon side wall or something similar? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - 208.721.7003 NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sefchick, Steve Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Hi Bill; Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing my information. As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations. I'm taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc BSME 1988, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/11/2017 9:07 PM, frenergy wrote: Let's see, we're all on the same page here, right? The 33 vs 31 mm refers to the frame height not the thickness of the frame material where fastener pulled through. Also, hang in there with getting help from Solarworld. They have given me exceptional help in the past...not sure if they can/will in this case, but..... Bill On 1/11/2017 12:08 PM, Ray Walters wrote: HI Steven; Do you mean the bolts were over torqued and then later broke? Here's some pics that just came in of the damage. Hardware looks good, just ripped the module's framing. The old Solarworld 2.5 frame not only was thinner (31mm) and so could possibly flex more, but it had less metal to bolt to. Their newer 4.0 frame is 33 mm thick, but also appears to have a wider flange to bolt to. I still have not had any contact from Solar World. Not good. I've been installing their stuff since the ARCO days, so I need some support for the first time in decades. Solar World Reps are you out there? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/11/2017 12:42 PM, Steven Lawrence wrote: Hi Ray, Have you checked the torquing on all the other bolts? My company's had a few projects where some modules blew off - it's always been due to over-torquing of the bolts. Steven Lawrence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95282 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 52143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 12 19:22:24 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:22:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> Chris & Dana; Our site is a mountain in Wyoming and does have some focusing effects, so maybe 170 mph is possible. Are your arrays using top down clamps? I think that is apparently stronger, also possibly the 2011 Sanyos look to have beefier frames. However, I looked at their spec sheet and they're only rated at 60 PSF (less than the SWs). From my measurements here of Solar World 4.0 frames, I'm seeing a flange thickness of approx 1.3 mm, while an old Siemens SP 75 has 1.8 mm thick metal. I'm coming up with a fix for the Solar Worlds: 3/4 x 3/4 Stainless steel Angle fits just inside the lip of the module, and will distribute the forces more evenly. The question then is, are we just going to lose the glass next? Anyone have a currently available module that is beefier? I may recommend we swap the whole array out, if we are indeed exceeding the design of the Solar Worlds. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 2:39 PM, Chris @ The Oasis wrote: > Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky Mountain > front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not unusual with 150 to 175 > MPH gusts. The system was installed in 2011 (with Sanyo 215W > modules). No problems yet; we certainly over-engineered the racks, > knowing what high winds there are! > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-0830 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Sefchick, Steve > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage > > Hi Bill; > > Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying > colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now > though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to > the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to > over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. > Their engineering team is reviewing my information. > As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph > winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? > > *Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme > situation, I definitely stand by my installations.* I'm taking a snow > cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully > get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be > many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. > > Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have > a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is > conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I > will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with > all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner > metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules > down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w > module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. > R.Ray Walters > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dana at solarwork.com Thu Jan 12 20:01:53 2017 From: Dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 18:01:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> References: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> Message-ID: <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> Bottom side bolt up. But they were 1995 Solarex remember the weight of those frames! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - 208.721.7003 NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 5:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Chris & Dana; Our site is a mountain in Wyoming and does have some focusing effects, so maybe 170 mph is possible. Are your arrays using top down clamps? I think that is apparently stronger, also possibly the 2011 Sanyos look to have beefier frames. However, I looked at their spec sheet and they're only rated at 60 PSF (less than the SWs). From my measurements here of Solar World 4.0 frames, I'm seeing a flange thickness of approx 1.3 mm, while an old Siemens SP 75 has 1.8 mm thick metal. I'm coming up with a fix for the Solar Worlds: 3/4 x 3/4 Stainless steel Angle fits just inside the lip of the module, and will distribute the forces more evenly. The question then is, are we just going to lose the glass next? Anyone have a currently available module that is beefier? I may recommend we swap the whole array out, if we are indeed exceeding the design of the Solar Worlds. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 2:39 PM, Chris @ The Oasis wrote: Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky Mountain front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not unusual with 150 to 175 MPH gusts. The system was installed in 2011 (with Sanyo 215W modules). No problems yet; we certainly over-engineered the racks, knowing what high winds there are! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com _____ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sefchick, Steve Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Hi Bill; Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing my information. As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations. I'm taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. R.Ray Walters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 12 21:39:30 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:39:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> References: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> Message-ID: <0c43c0cf-f056-2718-331f-bee805065f6a@solarray.com> Yep, the old modules were heavier, had a thicker frame, and most importantly: much less total surface area. The old 75 w modules were less than 7 sq ft, compared to almost 18 sq ft of a new 60 cell module. 2-1/2 times the forces on even thinner metal. Not that I want to go back to the good ol' days, but I think the industry got a little too thin on the frame, or at the least, we need a beefier hardware solution for bottom mounted arrays on open frames in high wind locations. I'll send a pic of our fix, once we try it. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 6:01 PM, Dana wrote: > > Bottom side bolt up. But they were 1995 Solarex remember the weight of > those frames! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - *208.721.7003* > > NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 > > E - *dana at solarwork.com* - Web - www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2017 5:22 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage > > Chris & Dana; > > Our site is a mountain in Wyoming and does have some focusing effects, > so maybe 170 mph is possible. Are your arrays using top down clamps? > I think that is apparently stronger, also possibly the 2011 Sanyos > look to have beefier frames. However, I looked at their spec sheet > and they're only rated at 60 PSF (less than the SWs). From my > measurements here of Solar World 4.0 frames, I'm seeing a flange > thickness of approx 1.3 mm, while an old Siemens SP 75 has 1.8 mm > thick metal. > I'm coming up with a fix for the Solar Worlds: 3/4 x 3/4 Stainless > steel Angle fits just inside the lip of the module, and will > distribute the forces more evenly. The question then is, are we just > going to lose the glass next? Anyone have a currently available > module that is beefier? I may recommend we swap the whole array out, > if we are indeed exceeding the design of the Solar Worlds. > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/12/2017 2:39 PM, Chris @ The Oasis wrote: > > Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky > Mountain front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not > unusual with 150 to 175 MPH gusts. The system was installed in > 2011 (with Sanyo 215W modules). No problems yet; we certainly > over-engineered the racks, knowing what high winds there are! > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-0830 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Sefchick, Steve > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage > > Hi Bill; > > Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with > flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. > Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF > rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that > that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite > ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing > my information. > As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph > winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? > > *Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this > extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations.* I'm > taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next > week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain > after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one > replacement module anyway. > > Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't > have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and > it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good > micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module > brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems > to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're > bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the > same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely > surprising to start seeing high wind failures. > > R.Ray Walters > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Jan 12 21:00:27 2017 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:00:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> Message-ID: Makes you wonder if we just couldn't get a manufacturer to make beefier modules for really harsh sites, eh? --Chris @ the Oasis MT _____ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 5:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Chris & Dana; Our site is a mountain in Wyoming and does have some focusing effects, so maybe 170 mph is possible. Are your arrays using top down clamps? I think that is apparently stronger, also possibly the 2011 Sanyos look to have beefier frames. However, I looked at their spec sheet and they're only rated at 60 PSF (less than the SWs). From my measurements here of Solar World 4.0 frames, I'm seeing a flange thickness of approx 1.3 mm, while an old Siemens SP 75 has 1.8 mm thick metal. I'm coming up with a fix for the Solar Worlds: 3/4 x 3/4 Stainless steel Angle fits just inside the lip of the module, and will distribute the forces more evenly. The question then is, are we just going to lose the glass next? Anyone have a currently available module that is beefier? I may recommend we swap the whole array out, if we are indeed exceeding the design of the Solar Worlds. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 2:39 PM, Chris @ The Oasis wrote: Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky Mountain front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not unusual with 150 to 175 MPH gusts. The system was installed in 2011 (with Sanyo 215W modules). No problems yet; we certainly over-engineered the racks, knowing what high winds there are! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com _____ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sefchick, Steve Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Hi Bill; Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing my information. As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations. I'm taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. R.Ray Walters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 21:33:42 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 18:33:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> References: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> Message-ID: <64C4D3FB-81CC-40DE-B2E7-C807A964B360@gmail.com> Its not just the weight but the size, i.e. so small! jay peltz power > On Jan 12, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Dana wrote: > > Bottom side bolt up. But they were 1995 Solarex remember the weight of those frames! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - 208.721.7003 > NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 12 22:10:55 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 19:10:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: <0c43c0cf-f056-2718-331f-bee805065f6a@solarray.com> References: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> <0c43c0cf-f056-2718-331f-bee805065f6a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray: Great thread. Thanks for starting it. An idea crossed my mind (and there was plenty of room in there): If one could find a sturdy aluminum channel that happened to fit firmly over your module frame, one could use it along the long access, or maybe even the short access, of the module frame to reinforce it. Bottom mounted, the fasteners would go through a hole in the module frame and the aluminum channel. The outside channel could stiffen up a module pretty significantly. Now the above idea may not be practical, especially if you can’t find the right channel, but I would not be surprised if this idea maybe someone else on the list come up with a related idea that might be better. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Yep, the old modules were heavier, had a thicker frame, and most importantly: much less total surface area. The old 75 w modules were less than 7 sq ft, compared to almost 18 sq ft of a new 60 cell module. 2-1/2 times the forces on even thinner metal. Not that I want to go back to the good ol' days, but I think the industry got a little too thin on the frame, or at the least, we need a beefier hardware solution for bottom mounted arrays on open frames in high wind locations. I'll send a pic of our fix, once we try it. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 6:01 PM, Dana wrote: Bottom side bolt up. But they were 1995 Solarex remember the weight of those frames! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - *208.721.7003* NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 E - *dana at solarwork.com * - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2017 5:22 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Chris & Dana; Our site is a mountain in Wyoming and does have some focusing effects, so maybe 170 mph is possible. Are your arrays using top down clamps? I think that is apparently stronger, also possibly the 2011 Sanyos look to have beefier frames. However, I looked at their spec sheet and they're only rated at 60 PSF (less than the SWs). From my measurements here of Solar World 4.0 frames, I'm seeing a flange thickness of approx 1.3 mm, while an old Siemens SP 75 has 1.8 mm thick metal. I'm coming up with a fix for the Solar Worlds: 3/4 x 3/4 Stainless steel Angle fits just inside the lip of the module, and will distribute the forces more evenly. The question then is, are we just going to lose the glass next? Anyone have a currently available module that is beefier? I may recommend we swap the whole array out, if we are indeed exceeding the design of the Solar Worlds. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 2:39 PM, Chris @ The Oasis wrote: Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky Mountain front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not unusual with 150 to 175 MPH gusts. The system was installed in 2011 (with Sanyo 215W modules). No problems yet; we certainly over-engineered the racks, knowing what high winds there are! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com ------------------------------ *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Sefchick, Steve *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Hi Bill; Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing my information. As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? *Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations.* I'm taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. R.Ray Walters _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Fri Jan 13 12:01:23 2017 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 17:01:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: References: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> <0c43c0cf-f056-2718-331f-bee805065f6a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Similar to what William mentions, PV Racking makes a clamp-free rail that would support the frame along the entire length of the module. I’m not sure if their solution is engineered for higher wind speeds than a bottom mount or clamp based system, but it might be worth looking into. They are also now listed to UL 2703, which is helpful. https://www.pvracking.com/ground-mounting-systems/overview/ Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 9:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Ray: Great thread. Thanks for starting it. An idea crossed my mind (and there was plenty of room in there): If one could find a sturdy aluminum channel that happened to fit firmly over your module frame, one could use it along the long access, or maybe even the short access, of the module frame to reinforce it. Bottom mounted, the fasteners would go through a hole in the module frame and the aluminum channel. The outside channel could stiffen up a module pretty significantly. Now the above idea may not be practical, especially if you can’t find the right channel, but I would not be surprised if this idea maybe someone else on the list come up with a related idea that might be better. William [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Yep, the old modules were heavier, had a thicker frame, and most importantly: much less total surface area. The old 75 w modules were less than 7 sq ft, compared to almost 18 sq ft of a new 60 cell module. 2-1/2 times the forces on even thinner metal. Not that I want to go back to the good ol' days, but I think the industry got a little too thin on the frame, or at the least, we need a beefier hardware solution for bottom mounted arrays on open frames in high wind locations. I'll send a pic of our fix, once we try it. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 6:01 PM, Dana wrote: Bottom side bolt up. But they were 1995 Solarex remember the weight of those frames! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - 208.721.7003 NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 5:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Chris & Dana; Our site is a mountain in Wyoming and does have some focusing effects, so maybe 170 mph is possible. Are your arrays using top down clamps? I think that is apparently stronger, also possibly the 2011 Sanyos look to have beefier frames. However, I looked at their spec sheet and they're only rated at 60 PSF (less than the SWs). From my measurements here of Solar World 4.0 frames, I'm seeing a flange thickness of approx 1.3 mm, while an old Siemens SP 75 has 1.8 mm thick metal. I'm coming up with a fix for the Solar Worlds: 3/4 x 3/4 Stainless steel Angle fits just inside the lip of the module, and will distribute the forces more evenly. The question then is, are we just going to lose the glass next? Anyone have a currently available module that is beefier? I may recommend we swap the whole array out, if we are indeed exceeding the design of the Solar Worlds. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 2:39 PM, Chris @ The Oasis wrote: Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky Mountain front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not unusual with 150 to 175 MPH gusts. The system was installed in 2011 (with Sanyo 215W modules). No problems yet; we certainly over-engineered the racks, knowing what high winds there are! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sefchick, Steve Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Hi Bill; Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing my information. As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations. I'm taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. R.Ray Walters _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jan 13 14:18:00 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (markf at berkeleysolar.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 11:18:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB240 - Multigate Required Message-ID: <33905.66.117.140.18.1484335080.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Folks, The SMA installation manual is clear that the Multigate is an integral part of the micorinverter system and must be installed with the microinverters. It is clear that the Multigate is required to meter and monitor the microinverter system. I would never advocate that anyone attempt to deviate from these manufacture instructions. However, I wonder if anyone has incidentally, momentarily, bypassed the connection through the Multigate and if so, did they observe whether or not the microinverters happened to export power to the AC system in this configuration? Mark From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 13 13:26:38 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 10:26:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB2500U vac-bfr error Message-ID: Dear Wrenches: I have a customer with a SMA SB2500U exhibiting the vac-bfr error code. I believe this indicates a grid voltage out of tolerance. The inverter has correct grid voltage and frequency to the grid terminals and is a model that does not include the fuse. This inverter is on longer supported so I can’t get a repair. I have previously changed out the firmware and used the reset sequence. I tried resetting the inverter by cycling power for several minutes and using the ENS1/ENS2 procedure. No change in status. Does anyone happen to know of any other method to reset this inverter? Otherwise it becomes a boat anchor. Thanks, William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Dana at solarwork.com Fri Jan 13 11:53:41 2017 From: Dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 09:53:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: References: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> <0c43c0cf-f056-2718-331f-bee805065f6a@solarray.com> Message-ID: <001801d26dbd$983d81e0$c8b885a0$@com> I have used a 1.25” fender washer with one side partially snipped off to reinforce a tie down not on a module but on another application that we thought was a bit flimsy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - 208.721.7003 NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 8:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Ray: Great thread. Thanks for starting it. An idea crossed my mind (and there was plenty of room in there): If one could find a sturdy aluminum channel that happened to fit firmly over your module frame, one could use it along the long access, or maybe even the short access, of the module frame to reinforce it. Bottom mounted, the fasteners would go through a hole in the module frame and the aluminum channel. The outside channel could stiffen up a module pretty significantly. Now the above idea may not be practical, especially if you can’t find the right channel, but I would not be surprised if this idea maybe someone else on the list come up with a related idea that might be better. William Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Yep, the old modules were heavier, had a thicker frame, and most importantly: much less total surface area. The old 75 w modules were less than 7 sq ft, compared to almost 18 sq ft of a new 60 cell module. 2-1/2 times the forces on even thinner metal. Not that I want to go back to the good ol' days, but I think the industry got a little too thin on the frame, or at the least, we need a beefier hardware solution for bottom mounted arrays on open frames in high wind locations. I'll send a pic of our fix, once we try it. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 6:01 PM, Dana wrote: Bottom side bolt up. But they were 1995 Solarex remember the weight of those frames! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - 208.721.7003 NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 5:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Chris & Dana; Our site is a mountain in Wyoming and does have some focusing effects, so maybe 170 mph is possible. Are your arrays using top down clamps? I think that is apparently stronger, also possibly the 2011 Sanyos look to have beefier frames. However, I looked at their spec sheet and they're only rated at 60 PSF (less than the SWs). From my measurements here of Solar World 4.0 frames, I'm seeing a flange thickness of approx 1.3 mm, while an old Siemens SP 75 has 1.8 mm thick metal. I'm coming up with a fix for the Solar Worlds: 3/4 x 3/4 Stainless steel Angle fits just inside the lip of the module, and will distribute the forces more evenly. The question then is, are we just going to lose the glass next? Anyone have a currently available module that is beefier? I may recommend we swap the whole array out, if we are indeed exceeding the design of the Solar Worlds. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 2:39 PM, Chris @ The Oasis wrote: Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky Mountain front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not unusual with 150 to 175 MPH gusts. The system was installed in 2011 (with Sanyo 215W modules). No problems yet; we certainly over-engineered the racks, knowing what high winds there are! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com _____ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sefchick, Steve Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Hi Bill; Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing my information. As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations. I'm taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. R.Ray Walters _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 18:44:04 2017 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 15:44:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB240 - Multigate Required In-Reply-To: <33905.66.117.140.18.1484335080.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> References: <33905.66.117.140.18.1484335080.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: It would be difficult to know what the inverters are doing without a Multigate in the circuit. There is no monitoring, LED indicators, or other means to see the status of the inverters. It would require a third party meter to see if there was current flow or not. My hunch is that the inverters would not connect to the grid at all, but I have not tested that inadvertently or on purpose. Other that the monitoring my SMA micros have been rock solid for a couple of years, too bad they are discontinued. I still have a dozen beta test units and multigate sitting in the basement if someone knows of a use for them. They are not listed. Brad On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 11:18 AM, wrote: > Folks, > > The SMA installation manual is clear that the Multigate is an integral > part of the micorinverter system and must be installed with the > microinverters. It is clear that the Multigate is required to meter and > monitor the microinverter system. > > I would never advocate that anyone attempt to deviate from these > manufacture instructions. However, I wonder if anyone has incidentally, > momentarily, bypassed the connection through the Multigate and if so, did > they observe whether or not the microinverters happened to export power to > the AC system in this configuration? > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 18:50:27 2017 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 15:50:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: References: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> <0c43c0cf-f056-2718-331f-bee805065f6a@solarray.com> Message-ID: SnapNrack makes a snap on channel for the REC module as part of their rail-less system. I expect it would be a little pricey to buy full lengths of it, assuming they'd sell it that way. One can ask. Brad AEE Solar On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 7:10 PM, William Miller wrote: > Ray: > > > > Great thread. Thanks for starting it. > > > > An idea crossed my mind (and there was plenty of room in there): If one > could find a sturdy aluminum channel that happened to fit firmly over your > module frame, one could use it along the long access, or maybe even the > short access, of the module frame to reinforce it. Bottom mounted, the > fasteners would go through a hole in the module frame and the aluminum > channel. The outside channel could stiffen up a module pretty > significantly. > > > > Now the above idea may not be practical, especially if you can’t find the > right channel, but I would not be surprised if this idea maybe someone else > on the list come up with a related idea that might be better. > > > > William > > > > > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:40 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage > > > > Yep, the old modules were heavier, had a thicker frame, and most > importantly: much less total surface area. The old 75 w modules were less > than 7 sq ft, compared to almost 18 sq ft of a new 60 cell module. 2-1/2 > times the forces on even thinner metal. > Not that I want to go back to the good ol' days, but I think the industry > got a little too thin on the frame, or at the least, we need a beefier > hardware solution for bottom mounted arrays on open frames in high wind > locations. I'll send a pic of our fix, once we try it. > > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> > > On 1/12/2017 6:01 PM, Dana wrote: > > Bottom side bolt up. But they were 1995 Solarex remember the weight of > those frames! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - *208.721.7003 > <(208)%20721-7003>* > > NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 > > E - *dana at solarwork.com * - Web - www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2017 5:22 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage > > > > Chris & Dana; > > Our site is a mountain in Wyoming and does have some focusing effects, so > maybe 170 mph is possible. Are your arrays using top down clamps? I think > that is apparently stronger, also possibly the 2011 Sanyos look to have > beefier frames. However, I looked at their spec sheet and they're only > rated at 60 PSF (less than the SWs). From my measurements here of Solar > World 4.0 frames, I'm seeing a flange thickness of approx 1.3 mm, while an > old Siemens SP 75 has 1.8 mm thick metal. > I'm coming up with a fix for the Solar Worlds: 3/4 x 3/4 Stainless steel > Angle fits just inside the lip of the module, and will distribute the > forces more evenly. The question then is, are we just going to lose the > glass next? Anyone have a currently available module that is beefier? I > may recommend we swap the whole array out, if we are indeed exceeding the > design of the Solar Worlds. > > Thanks, > > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> > > On 1/12/2017 2:39 PM, Chris @ The Oasis wrote: > > Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky Mountain > front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not unusual with 150 to 175 MPH > gusts. The system was installed in 2011 (with Sanyo 215W modules). No > problems yet; we certainly over-engineered the racks, knowing what high > winds there are! > > > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 <(406)%20777-4309> > 406-777-0830 <(406)%20777-0830> fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Sefchick, Steve > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage > > Hi Bill; > > Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying > colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, > they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of > the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph > winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering > team is reviewing my information. > As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds > possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? > > *Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme > situation, I definitely stand by my installations.* I'm taking a snow cat > up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a > little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times > the cost of one replacement module anyway. > > Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a > version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is > conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will > compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the > cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As > Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker > flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not > entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. > > > R.Ray Walters > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 18:53:22 2017 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 15:53:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB2500U vac-bfr error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try Solar Cowboyz in Grass Valley. They may be able to repair it, they say. http://www.solarcowboyz.com/ Brad On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 10:26 AM, William Miller wrote: > Dear Wrenches: > > > > I have a customer with a SMA SB2500U exhibiting the vac-bfr error code. I > believe this indicates a grid voltage out of tolerance. The inverter has > correct grid voltage and frequency to the grid terminals and is a model > that does not include the fuse. This inverter is on longer supported so I > can’t get a repair. I have previously changed out the firmware and used the > reset sequence. > > > > I tried resetting the inverter by cycling power for several minutes and > using the ENS1/ENS2 procedure. No change in status. Does anyone happen to > know of any other method to reset this inverter? Otherwise it becomes a > boat anchor. > > > > Thanks, > > > > William > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Fri Jan 13 17:49:01 2017 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 15:49:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: SolarWorld wind damage References: Message-ID: Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad Begin forwarded message: > From: Tom Lane > Date: January 13, 2017 at 3:25:10 PM MST > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: Solar World wind damage > > Better English sorry Mike > > Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad > >> On Jan 13, 2017, at 3:12 PM, Tom Lane wrote: >> >> In Florida due to hurricanes we have learned that THE MODULES THAT ARE ON THE ENDS OF EACH ARRAY that we should always ADD ANOTHER RAIL WITH CLAMPS . For example if you have an array facing south then the east and west most module in each row MUST HAVE AN EXTRA OR A THIRD RAIL ! This prevents peeling , also use a five pattern INSTEAD OF A four pattern that ties all the trusts together , a four pattern skips every other trust . If modules are raise on struts ALL END MODULES SHOULD HAVE 11/2 sets of mounting hardware ON EACH END module and be cross braced on the struts in an X pattern to the bottom AND top of the adjacent module's two struts so that all five struts ( 3 on the end module ) and the two on the adjacent module are tied front and back of ALL the back struts with two L bar 3/16 thick rails in the X pattern with 5/16 SS bolts . Gator Tom >> PS : Do not blame the module manufacturer it is always the responsibility to look for the worst scenario possible i.e. The Record Storm at the sites history , then up it .15% . Also use common sense which is now a super power ! I have seen people using clamps alone on modules just attached to the seems of metal roofs WITHOUT A RAIL TO TIE IT ALL TOGETHER ! Rails should always be tied to metal roofs and THEN each module clamped to the rails . Uneven expansion and contraction on metal roofs leads to a disaster waiting to happen in rails are not used . Mounting the array is the most important part of the contracting A) no leaks B ) no wind or storm damage . You have nothing to do with anything else except aesthetics . 90 % is no leaks and no wind damage . Esthetics is 10 % . The modules make the electricity not the contractor , wiring professionally should be a given . Roofing work is what separates a Solar Contractor from an electrician in Florida . Only CVC solar licenses and Roofers are allowed to attach modules to a roof . An Electrician has to use a roofer in Florida or a CVC Solar Contractor unless the electrician is doing a ground mount . >> Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jan 14 00:17:58 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:17:58 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB2500U vac-bfr error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William Some of the SB inverters had a fuse on one leg inside the inverter and it will exibit this condition, right next to the AC taps Jerry On Jan 13, 2017 9:42 AM, "William Miller" wrote: > Dear Wrenches: > > > > I have a customer with a SMA SB2500U exhibiting the vac-bfr error code. I > believe this indicates a grid voltage out of tolerance. The inverter has > correct grid voltage and frequency to the grid terminals and is a model > that does not include the fuse. This inverter is on longer supported so I > can’t get a repair. I have previously changed out the firmware and used the > reset sequence. > > > > I tried resetting the inverter by cycling power for several minutes and > using the ENS1/ENS2 procedure. No change in status. Does anyone happen to > know of any other method to reset this inverter? Otherwise it becomes a > boat anchor. > > > > Thanks, > > > > William > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Sun Jan 15 17:04:07 2017 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:04:07 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump.... Message-ID: <001101d26f7b$4c42c330$e4c84990$@gosolar.co.nz> Hi all, can any pumping guys recommend a simple straightforward replacement for the Shurflo 9325. The one in question has worked faithfully for a number of years now and has already been repaired once, but they don't last forever. Of course replacement parts availability is always important. The 9325 was a good all 'round inexpensive workhorse but the application does not warrant replacing with a more expensive pump like Lorentz, etc. Thanks for any suggestions - John Veix, N.Z. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jan 15 17:08:55 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2017 14:08:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump.... In-Reply-To: <001101d26f7b$4c42c330$e4c84990$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <001101d26f7b$4c42c330$e4c84990$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <26A71734-82DE-4866-8AB7-5F4FD9216EA0@gmail.com> Hi John, If you are looking for something similar to the 9325 but better then. Check out Sunpumps. Much better pump because of the superior case, cheaper, more reliable and easier to repair Also Sunpumps make some really nice LCB controls. jay peltz power > On Jan 15, 2017, at 2:04 PM, John wrote: > > Hi all, can any pumping guys recommend a simple straightforward replacement for the Shurflo 9325. The one in question has worked faithfully for a number of years now and has already been repaired once, but they don’t last forever. > > Of course replacement parts availability is always important. > > The 9325 was a good all ‘round inexpensive workhorse but the application does not warrant replacing with a more expensive pump like Lorentz, etc. > > Thanks for any suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Jan 15 20:58:24 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:58:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanthrax Model # SWPLUS4024 In-Reply-To: <001101d26f7b$4c42c330$e4c84990$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <001101d26f7b$4c42c330$e4c84990$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <7cab99e5-5707-1fc6-6ff3-0dbac550c7fb@psln.com> Dearest Graybeards, I've searched for but cannot find an owner's manual for the Xantrex SWPLUS4024 (early 2005). The search comes up but when you download, the OM downloads as a TRACE 4024. That's all fine and dandy but the display/control center is laid out different and I'm assuming the menus are not the same. Anyone have a link to the Xantrex? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From william at millersolar.com Sun Jan 15 22:16:07 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2017 19:16:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanthrax Model # SWPLUS4024 In-Reply-To: <7cab99e5-5707-1fc6-6ff3-0dbac550c7fb@psln.com> References: <001101d26f7b$4c42c330$e4c84990$@gosolar.co.nz> <7cab99e5-5707-1fc6-6ff3-0dbac550c7fb@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill: I've got a manual PDF. I will put it up on my web site and post a link later tonight or early tomorrow. William > On Jan 15, 2017, at 5:58 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Dearest Graybeards, > > I've searched for but cannot find an owner's manual for the Xantrex SWPLUS4024 (early 2005). The search comes up but when you download, the OM downloads as a TRACE 4024. That's all fine and dandy but the display/control center is laid out different and I'm assuming the menus are not the same. Anyone have a link to the Xantrex? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Mon Jan 16 00:42:40 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:42:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanthrax Model # SWPLUS4024 In-Reply-To: <7cab99e5-5707-1fc6-6ff3-0dbac550c7fb@psln.com> References: <001101d26f7b$4c42c330$e4c84990$@gosolar.co.nz> <7cab99e5-5707-1fc6-6ff3-0dbac550c7fb@psln.com> Message-ID: <5fa58b27402d3737fbeee510bb371364@mail.gmail.com> Bill: The manual was already listed on our web site. Look here: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Resources/Xantrex/_xantrex.html William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 5:58 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanthrax Model # SWPLUS4024 Dearest Graybeards, I've searched for but cannot find an owner's manual for the Xantrex SWPLUS4024 (early 2005). The search comes up but when you download, the OM downloads as a TRACE 4024. That's all fine and dandy but the display/control center is laid out different and I'm assuming the menus are not the same. Anyone have a link to the Xantrex? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Mon Jan 16 09:58:09 2017 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 14:58:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage In-Reply-To: References: <54abc590-83cb-2280-9b58-a4713908e1ec@solarray.com> <006e01d26d38$a1c823d0$e5586b70$@com> <0c43c0cf-f056-2718-331f-bee805065f6a@solarray.com> Message-ID: PV Racking also makes a clamp-free rail that would support and secure the frame along the entire length of the module. I’m not sure if their solution is engineered for higher wind speeds than a bottom mount or clamp based system, but it might be worth looking into. I believe their rack is also now listed to UL 2703, which could be a benefit over a custom solution. https://www.pvracking.com/ground-mounting-systems/overview/ Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bradley Bassett Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 5:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage SnapNrack makes a snap on channel for the REC module as part of their rail-less system. I expect it would be a little pricey to buy full lengths of it, assuming they'd sell it that way. One can ask. Brad AEE Solar On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 7:10 PM, William Miller > wrote: Ray: Great thread. Thanks for starting it. An idea crossed my mind (and there was plenty of room in there): If one could find a sturdy aluminum channel that happened to fit firmly over your module frame, one could use it along the long access, or maybe even the short access, of the module frame to reinforce it. Bottom mounted, the fasteners would go through a hole in the module frame and the aluminum channel. The outside channel could stiffen up a module pretty significantly. Now the above idea may not be practical, especially if you can’t find the right channel, but I would not be surprised if this idea maybe someone else on the list come up with a related idea that might be better. William [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Yep, the old modules were heavier, had a thicker frame, and most importantly: much less total surface area. The old 75 w modules were less than 7 sq ft, compared to almost 18 sq ft of a new 60 cell module. 2-1/2 times the forces on even thinner metal. Not that I want to go back to the good ol' days, but I think the industry got a little too thin on the frame, or at the least, we need a beefier hardware solution for bottom mounted arrays on open frames in high wind locations. I'll send a pic of our fix, once we try it. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 6:01 PM, Dana wrote: Bottom side bolt up. But they were 1995 Solarex remember the weight of those frames! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - 208.721.7003 NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 5:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Chris & Dana; Our site is a mountain in Wyoming and does have some focusing effects, so maybe 170 mph is possible. Are your arrays using top down clamps? I think that is apparently stronger, also possibly the 2011 Sanyos look to have beefier frames. However, I looked at their spec sheet and they're only rated at 60 PSF (less than the SWs). From my measurements here of Solar World 4.0 frames, I'm seeing a flange thickness of approx 1.3 mm, while an old Siemens SP 75 has 1.8 mm thick metal. I'm coming up with a fix for the Solar Worlds: 3/4 x 3/4 Stainless steel Angle fits just inside the lip of the module, and will distribute the forces more evenly. The question then is, are we just going to lose the glass next? Anyone have a currently available module that is beefier? I may recommend we swap the whole array out, if we are indeed exceeding the design of the Solar Worlds. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/12/2017 2:39 PM, Chris @ The Oasis wrote: Wrenches: We have a ~70KW ground mounted array on the Rocky Mountain front near Choteau, MT. Springs winds are not unusual with 150 to 175 MPH gusts. The system was installed in 2011 (with Sanyo 215W modules). No problems yet; we certainly over-engineered the racks, knowing what high winds there are! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sefchick, Steve Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World Wind Damage Hi Bill; Solar World customer support did come through yesterday with flying colors. They got hit by a big storm in the North West. Right now though, they are saying that we exceeded the 64 PSF rated loading to the back of the module. I've pointed out that that would correspond to over 170 mph winds, so I'm not quite ready to concede the warranty. Their engineering team is reviewing my information. As always, the Wrench list experience is invaluable. Are 170 mph winds possible, outside of a tornado or hurricane? Whether or not Solar World stands by their product in this extreme situation, I definitely stand by my installations. I'm taking a snow cat up to replace and reinforce the modules next week, then hopefully get a little help from my supply chain after. My repair costs will be many times the cost of one replacement module anyway. Yes, the 33 mm vs 31 mm refers to the module thickness. I don't have a version 2.5 frame to check the flange metal thickness, and it is conspicuously absent from the specs. I have a good micrometer, and I will compare metal thicknesses of several module brands, because with all the cost cutting, many module manus seems to be using thinner metal lately. As Jay pointed out, we're bolting much bigger modules down with much weaker flanges, and the same hardware we used on a 75 w module, so its not entirely surprising to start seeing high wind failures. R.Ray Walters _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Mon Jan 16 18:30:13 2017 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:30:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C7E0854-26A0-4B0A-8299-C7D227CEB25A@mac.com> Hi John / and Jay Jay is correct to recommend that you consider Sunpumps or something like that. To be more specific, Sunpumps has a line called SunRotor www.sunrotor.com. Along with Lorentz HR and Grundfos SQF, these are HELICAL ROTOR (progressive cavity) pumps. Eventually, I believe they will send Shurflo and other diaphragm pumps packing to the scrap heap. They have one moving part / brushless motor / easy to service and in general, far greater life expectancy without any demand for preventive maintenance like diaphragm pumps. Pump rotor and stator will last many years if water is generally clean. I’m including much about this in my upcoming book, so I’m pretty up to date. Lorentz and Grundfos are oversized when looking for replacement for Shurflo, and they run 48V nominal and up. (Shurflo is 24V) SunRotor has a niche in the low power end, starting at 24V. You may find something compatible or easy to adapt to the existing system. Several Chinese companies are producing helical rotor (HR) subs, so you may find something if you search. When I search I get Alibaba pages, from which you can order (like Amazon), but they don’t give complete specs. They even get terminology mixed up and who-knows what else. But from there, you can search the manufacturers directly by name and make direct contact. OR You may find someone in your quarter of the planet who distributes them, which is ideal. At least SOME of those Chinese pumps are good. I can’t say which. Hope this helps. Windy Dankoff // Co-author, upcoming book: Solar Water Pumping (Taylor & Francis, London) > On Jan 16, 2017, at 12:13 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > From: "John" > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump.... > Date: January 15, 2017 at 3:04:07 PM MST > To: > > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > > > Hi all, can any pumping guys recommend a simple straightforward replacement for the Shurflo 9325. The one in question has worked faithfully for a number of years now and has already been repaired once, but they don’t last forever. > > Of course replacement parts availability is always important. > > The 9325 was a good all ‘round inexpensive workhorse but the application does not warrant replacing with a more expensive pump like Lorentz, etc. > > Thanks for any suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. > > > > From: jay > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump.... > Date: January 15, 2017 at 3:08:55 PM MST > To: RE-wrenches > > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > > > Hi John, > > If you are looking for something similar to the 9325 but better then. > Check out Sunpumps. > Much better pump because of the superior case, cheaper, more reliable and easier to repair > > Also Sunpumps make some really nice LCB controls. > > jay > peltz power > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jan 16 19:54:47 2017 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 17:54:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump.... In-Reply-To: <0C7E0854-26A0-4B0A-8299-C7D227CEB25A@mac.com> References: <0C7E0854-26A0-4B0A-8299-C7D227CEB25A@mac.com> Message-ID: John and Jay, What Windy wrote didn't jive with me, so I called him to check. Indeed there's an error, and Windy can address it later, as he was rushing out the door when I called. Sunpumps is the respected successor to Solarjack of years gone by. The SunRotor was developed and is distributed by Solar Power and Pump, http://www.solarpowerandpump.com. The rest of the info is OK. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 1/16/2017 4:30 PM, Windy Dankoff wrote: > Hi John / and Jay > > Jay is correct to recommend that you consider Sunpumps or something > like that. To be more specific, Sunpumps has a line called SunRotor > www.sunrotor.com . Along with Lorentz HR and > Grundfos SQF, these are HELICAL ROTOR (progressive cavity) pumps. > Eventually, I believe they will send Shurflo and other diaphragm pumps > packing to the scrap heap. They have one moving part / brushless motor > / easy to service and in general, far greater life expectancy without > any demand for preventive maintenance like diaphragm pumps. Pump rotor > and stator will last many years if water is generally clean. > > I’m including much about this in my upcoming book, so I’m pretty up to > date. > > Lorentz and Grundfos are oversized when looking for replacement for > Shurflo, and they run 48V nominal and up. (Shurflo is 24V) SunRotor > has a niche in the low power end, starting at 24V. You may find > something compatible or easy to adapt to the existing system. > > Several Chinese companies are producing helical rotor (HR) subs, so > you may find something if you search. When I search I get Alibaba > pages, from which you can order (like Amazon), but they don’t give > complete specs. They even get terminology mixed up and who-knows what > else. But from there, you can search the manufacturers directly by > name and make direct contact. OR You may find someone in your quarter > of the planet who distributes them, which is ideal. > > At least SOME of those Chinese pumps are good. I can’t say which. > > Hope this helps. > Windy Dankoff // Co-author, upcoming book: Solar Water Pumping (Taylor > & Francis, London) > > >> On Jan 16, 2017, at 12:13 PM, >> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> wrote: >> >> *From:*"John" > >> *Subject:**[RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump....* >> *Date:*January 15, 2017 at 3:04:07 PM MST >> *To:*> > >> *Reply-To:*RE-wrenches > > >> >> >> Hi all, can any pumping guys recommend a simple straightforward >> replacement for the Shurflo 9325. The one in question has worked >> faithfully for a number of years now and has already been repaired >> once, but they don’t last forever. >> Of course replacement parts availability is always important. >> The 9325 was a good all ‘round inexpensive workhorse but the >> application does not warrant replacing with a more expensive pump >> like Lorentz, etc. >> Thanks for any suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. >> >> >> >> *From:*jay > >> *Subject:**Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump....* >> *Date:*January 15, 2017 at 3:08:55 PM MST >> *To:*RE-wrenches > > >> *Reply-To:*RE-wrenches > > >> >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you are looking for something similar to the 9325 but better then. >> Check out Sunpumps. >> Much better pump because of the superior case, cheaper, more >> reliable and easier to repair >> >> Also Sunpumps make some really nice LCB controls. >> >> jay >> peltz power >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Mon Jan 16 21:21:45 2017 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:21:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John / Jay … WOW did I get MY names crossed! Jay was recommending Sunpumps because they make a superior diaphragm pump that is superior to Shurflo. I read it wrong / I thought he was referring you to SunRotor, not Sunpumps!! SunRotor is Solar Power & Pump Co. THEY have the helical rotor pumps I like to rave about. Forgive my Sun-name confusion. Sunpumps is top-line diaphragm pump and SunRotor (or other helical rotor pumps) are more in the direction of the 21st century. HR pumps all have brushless motors (liquid filled) which always require a different controller than brush motors (diaphragm pumps) :-? Windy Hi John / and Jay Jay is correct to recommend that you consider Sunpumps or something like that. To be more specific, Sunpumps has a line called SunRotor www.sunrotor.com . Along with Lorentz HR and Grundfos SQF, these are HELICAL ROTOR (progressive cavity) pumps. Eventually, I believe they will send Shurflo and other diaphragm pumps packing to the scrap heap. They have one moving part / brushless motor / easy to service and in general, far greater life expectancy without any demand for preventive maintenance like diaphragm pumps. Pump rotor and stator will last many years if water is generally clean. I’m including much about this in my upcoming book, so I’m pretty up to date. Lorentz and Grundfos are oversized when looking for replacement for Shurflo, and they run 48V nominal and up. (Shurflo is 24V) SunRotor has a niche in the low power end, starting at 24V. You may find something compatible or easy to adapt to the existing system. Several Chinese companies are producing helical rotor (HR) subs, so you may find something if you search. When I search I get Alibaba pages, from which you can order (like Amazon), but they don’t give complete specs. They even get terminology mixed up and who-knows what else. But from there, you can search the manufacturers directly by name and make direct contact. OR You may find someone in your quarter of the planet who distributes them, which is ideal. At least SOME of those Chinese pumps are good. I can’t say which. Hope this helps. Windy Dankoff // Co-author, upcoming book: Solar Water Pumping (Taylor & Francis, London) > On Jan 16, 2017, at 12:13 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > From: "John" > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump.... > Date: January 15, 2017 at 3:04:07 PM MST > To: > > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > > > Hi all, can any pumping guys recommend a simple straightforward replacement for the Shurflo 9325. The one in question has worked faithfully for a number of years now and has already been repaired once, but they don’t last forever. > > Of course replacement parts availability is always important. > > The 9325 was a good all ‘round inexpensive workhorse but the application does not warrant replacing with a more expensive pump like Lorentz, etc. > > Thanks for any suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. > > > > From: jay > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacement for the Shurflo 9325 pump.... > Date: January 15, 2017 at 3:08:55 PM MST > To: RE-wrenches > > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > > > Hi John, > > If you are looking for something similar to the 9325 but better then. > Check out Sunpumps. > Much better pump because of the superior case, cheaper, more reliable and easier to repair > > Also Sunpumps make some really nice LCB controls. > > jay > peltz power > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Tue Jan 17 19:30:06 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:30:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Saluda, South Carolina In-Reply-To: References: <874C6D5E-0CAC-48FA-A128-322740B54C94@gmail.com> <2aa147f9053e04b6d5fedde41b66b7d5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: Hello wrenches, I have a serious inquiry from a man in Saluda, SC. Is anyone on here close to this area of western South Carolina and want a live one? Please contact me off list. Thanks, Daryl From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 19:41:46 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 16:41:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schuco rack tool Message-ID: HI All, Does anyone know what the tip size is for the allen key on the Schuco racking? I’m not sure if the rack I’m dealing with is metric or SAE. I’ve got the manual, but it doesn’t say alley key size. Yea 1/2” wrench, which leads me to believe SAE, but Its a really long trip for this rack, so I just want to make sure I’ve got the right tips. thanks jay peltz power From steve at mountainpowersolutions.com Wed Jan 18 22:52:17 2017 From: steve at mountainpowersolutions.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 20:52:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schuco rack tool In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BD20CB3-B6EF-454D-AFF6-91FE9240DA3F@mountainpowersolutions.com> 6mm. I haven't used Schuco racking in 8 years. I have the tool, if you would like it let me know and I'll send it to you. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 939070 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPad > On Jan 18, 2017, at 5:41 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > Does anyone know what the tip size is for the allen key on the Schuco racking? > I’m not sure if the rack I’m dealing with is metric or SAE. > > I’ve got the manual, but it doesn’t say alley key size. > Yea 1/2” wrench, which leads me to believe SAE, but Its a really long trip for this rack, so I just want to make sure I’ve got the right tips. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From louis at solarcowboyz.com Thu Jan 19 15:11:58 2017 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 13:11:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB2500U vac-bfr error Message-ID: <20170119131158.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.78fb02f02e.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Fri Jan 20 12:52:50 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:52:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure Message-ID: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received today. I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE techs not familiar enough with proper battery bank care and as a reminder for those of us with years of storage battery experience. I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied below my bullet points to highlight the teachable issues. . Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but also for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well: #1) Use an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a similar moderate temperature. #2) Use your fingers to check temperatures. I'm practiced at this second method because inexpensive IR thermometers were not available when I began to care for storage batteries. I simply use my bare fingers (with a light coating of petroleum jelly) to wiggle test each battery cable at the battery terminal. Fingers are sensitive enough to gauge proper temperature. I have easily found several warm or hot connection points over the years caused by loose or corroded hardware. Do this as preventive maintenance every time you water the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed cells. Corrective measures (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or replacing, and reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual connection is identified. . It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any "anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been discussed a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of us have found that a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is one brand) does the best job of protecting against corrosion while still allowing some visual inspection. from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17. << This past summer Backwoods had a visit from one of our retired co-workers, xxxxx. While it is always good to have friends visit, the circumstances for his dropping by were less than ideal. A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery bank, two inverters, and a voltage converter. Ultimately, the failure was traced back to a single nut and bolt in the battery bank cable connections, that had developed hidden corrosion over time. Corrosion causes resistance to the flow of electricity, which in turn generates heat. With enough corrosion, and enough current flow, the amount of heat generated can be sufficient to melt battery terminal connections; which is exactly what happened in xxxxx's case. The melted metal flowed between the negative and positive terminals of his industrial battery, causing a high power short that was beyond the capabilities of any of the circuit protection, resulting in the damage to the equipment. Now keep in mind, xxxxx is one of the more detail-oriented people we've had here at Backwoods. The discipline of a military background, along with critical thinking of an engineer, were still not enough to overlook one very tiny detail. xxxxx does his mechanical maintenance on a routine schedule; checking for tightness in wiring connections, cleaning accumulated spray off battery tops, cleaning out dust and spider webs, and keeping his battery terminal posts coated with anti-corrosion paste. This is not the type of person you'd expect to see such a failure. So what happened? It all boiled down to the battery terminal connections. What xxxxx had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and bolts from the battery terminals and cables to check for internal, hidden corrosion. It had been about 6 years since he had done that level of inspection. When previously reviewed, the hardware had been thoroughly inspected, cleaned, and re-assembled, and then coated with anti-corrosion paste on the exterior. In one of the 16 nut/bolt pairs, a small bit of contamination or moisture must have been left trapped inside. Over the course of the next six years, the corrosion grew, contaminating the entire connection; but was NOT visible externally at all! >> Best regards, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From truscitti at taitem.com Fri Jan 20 17:03:00 2017 From: truscitti at taitem.com (Tom Ruscitti) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 17:03:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seaward PV210 I-V Curve Tracer Message-ID: Hello, We're considering buying the Seaward PV210 Solarlink kit, the new unit that does I-V curve tracing. I do see any recent threads on Seaward products in the archives. Does anyone have any experience to share on the PV210? Also, I've got some concerns about the range of the 200R irradiance meter wireless connection. When we tested a used PV150 kit last year I couldn't get more than about 30ft line of site with fresh batteries. I understand the connectivity has been improved in this generation but does anyone have any better range to report? Thanks, - Tom -- Tom Ruscitti Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Mobile: (607) 220-7022 www.taitem.com From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Jan 21 09:54:10 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 09:54:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure In-Reply-To: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> References: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> Message-ID: <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared? Chris On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received > today. I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE techs > not familiar enough with proper battery bank care and as a reminder > for those of us with years of storage battery experience. > > I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied below > my bullet points to highlight the teachable issues. > > ·Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but also > for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well: #1) Use > an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a similar moderate > temperature. #2) Use your fingers to check temperatures. I'm > practiced at this second method because inexpensive IR thermometers > were not available when I began to care for storage batteries. I > simply use my bare fingers (with a light coating of petroleum jelly) > to wiggle test each battery cable at the battery terminal. Fingers are > sensitive enough to gauge proper temperature. I have easily found > several warm or hot connection points over the years caused by loose > or corroded hardware. Do this as preventive maintenance every time you > water the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed cells. Corrective > measures (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or replacing, and > reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual > connection is identified. > > ·It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any > "anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been > discussed a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of us > have found that a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is one > brand) does the best job of protecting against corrosion while still > allowing some visual inspection. > > from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17. << This past summer Backwoods had a > visit from one of our retired co-workers, xxxxx. While it is always > good to have friends visit, the circumstances for his dropping by were > less than ideal. > > A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery bank, > two inverters, and a voltage converter. Ultimately, the failure was > traced back to a single nut and bolt in the battery bank cable > connections, that had developed hidden corrosion over time. Corrosion > causes resistance to the flow of electricity, which in turn generates > heat. With enough corrosion, and enough current flow, the amount of > heat generated can be sufficient to melt battery terminal connections; > which is exactly what happened in xxxxx’s case. The melted metal > flowed between the negative and positive terminals of his industrial > battery, causing a high power short that was beyond the capabilities > of any of the circuit protection, resulting in the damage to the > equipment. > > Now keep in mind, xxxxx is one of the more detail-oriented people > we’ve had here at Backwoods. The discipline of a military background, > along with critical thinking of an engineer, were still not enough to > overlook one very tiny detail. xxxxx does his mechanical maintenance > on a routine schedule; _checking for tightness in wiring connections_, > cleaning accumulated spray off battery tops, cleaning out dust and > spider webs, _and keeping his battery terminal posts coated with > anti-corrosion paste._ This is not the type of person you’d expect to > see such a failure. > > So what happened? It all boiled down to the battery terminal > connections. What xxxxx had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and > bolts from the battery terminals and cables to check for internal, > hidden corrosion. It had been about 6 years since he had done that > level of inspection. When previously reviewed, the hardware had been > thoroughly inspected, cleaned, and re-assembled, and then coated with > _anti-corrosion paste on the exterior_. In one of the 16 nut/bolt > pairs, a small bit of contamination or moisture must have been left > trapped inside. Over the course of the next six years, the corrosion > grew, contaminating the entire connection; but was NOT visible > externally at all! >> > > Best regards, > > Dave > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 cell > > 802-888-4917 home > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Sat Jan 21 10:52:07 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:52:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure In-Reply-To: <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> References: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <002f01d273fe$5231f9a0$f695ece0$@com> Hi Chris, I don't have any pictures myself, the Backwoods email included a photo of a corroded bolt and a clean assembly which I've snipped and attached. Off the Wrenches list I have had a conversation with another wrench who shared his successful methods which I will share here. << The issue I remember from before on this thread was do you put the material between the lug and post or outside of it? And I'm not sure from the article if it was put on between or outside? Personally I've done between and never had a problem. Yes I've seen corrosion around the lug, but take the lug off and its clean. Outside seals the corrosion in, inside prevents it from forming IMO. However, if the bolt got lose, it would generate heat, which would melt out any and all material, creating oxidation, more heat and away you go to failure mode. Also the photo doesn't show split/lock washer. I think its really important as the lead does flow over time, so no matter how tight you make it, it will loosen up over time especially with higher currents/heat. The lock washer will buy you some time before needing to retorque the fasteners. I'm curious about the damage mode to the inverter and all that. I don't understand how a short on the battery would destroy all the electronics? I've gone to a battery angle grinder with flappy wheel to prep the terminal posts. - fast. >> My response to him. I wondered about the failure of those big expensive components too, but I have never had a dead short for more than a split second at the batteries (a few misplaced cables when working too quickly are easily dealt with). I have been installing a catastrophic class T fuse between the battery bank and the DC distribution center breaker also. I would always buff the cable ends with a green scrubbie and file the battery terminals to remove any corrosion and then lightly coat all surfaces, including all the hardware thoroughly (incldng lock washer), with petroleum jelly before assembling and tightening (very tight - tight as I could without breaking the hardware, lead starts to compress). I've been very happy with doing it this way for 30+ years. Learned much of this from Peter Talmage and Rob Wills here back east as well as from Richard Perez (RIP). Dave From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of cwarfel Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 9:54 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared? Chris On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received today. I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE techs not familiar enough with proper battery bank care and as a reminder for those of us with years of storage battery experience. I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied below my bullet points to highlight the teachable issues. . Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but also for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well: #1) Use an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a similar moderate temperature. #2) Use your fingers to check temperatures. I'm practiced at this second method because inexpensive IR thermometers were not available when I began to care for storage batteries. I simply use my bare fingers (with a light coating of petroleum jelly) to wiggle test each battery cable at the battery terminal. Fingers are sensitive enough to gauge proper temperature. I have easily found several warm or hot connection points over the years caused by loose or corroded hardware. Do this as preventive maintenance every time you water the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed cells. Corrective measures (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or replacing, and reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual connection is identified. . It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any "anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been discussed a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of us have found that a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is one brand) does the best job of protecting against corrosion while still allowing some visual inspection. from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17. << This past summer Backwoods had a visit from one of our retired co-workers, xxxxx. While it is always good to have friends visit, the circumstances for his dropping by were less than ideal. A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery bank, two inverters, and a voltage converter. Ultimately, the failure was traced back to a single nut and bolt in the battery bank cable connections, that had developed hidden corrosion over time. Corrosion causes resistance to the flow of electricity, which in turn generates heat. With enough corrosion, and enough current flow, the amount of heat generated can be sufficient to melt battery terminal connections; which is exactly what happened in xxxxx's case. The melted metal flowed between the negative and positive terminals of his industrial battery, causing a high power short that was beyond the capabilities of any of the circuit protection, resulting in the damage to the equipment. Now keep in mind, xxxxx is one of the more detail-oriented people we've had here at Backwoods. The discipline of a military background, along with critical thinking of an engineer, were still not enough to overlook one very tiny detail. xxxxx does his mechanical maintenance on a routine schedule; checking for tightness in wiring connections, cleaning accumulated spray off battery tops, cleaning out dust and spider webs, and keeping his battery terminal posts coated with anti-corrosion paste. This is not the type of person you'd expect to see such a failure. So what happened? It all boiled down to the battery terminal connections. What xxxxx had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and bolts from the battery terminals and cables to check for internal, hidden corrosion. It had been about 6 years since he had done that level of inspection. When previously reviewed, the hardware had been thoroughly inspected, cleaned, and re-assembled, and then coated with anti-corrosion paste on the exterior. In one of the 16 nut/bolt pairs, a small bit of contamination or moisture must have been left trapped inside. Over the course of the next six years, the corrosion grew, contaminating the entire connection; but was NOT visible externally at all! >> Best regards, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: battery bolts.PNG Type: image/png Size: 63871 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Jan 21 10:58:17 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:58:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure In-Reply-To: <002f01d273fe$5231f9a0$f695ece0$@com> References: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> <002f01d273fe$5231f9a0$f695ece0$@com> Message-ID: Thanks Dave, This is all helpful. We do90% battery systems, and I need to emphasize periodic maintenance. This will help. Chris On 1/21/2017 10:52 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > I don't have any pictures myself, the Backwoods email included a photo > of a corroded bolt and a clean assembly which I've snipped and attached. > > Off the Wrenches list I have had a conversation with another wrench > who shared his successful methods which I will share here. > > << The issue I remember from before on this thread was do you put the > material between the lug and post or outside of it? > > And I’m not sure from the article if it was put on between or outside? > > Personally I’ve done between and never had a problem. Yes I’ve seen > corrosion around the lug, but take the lug off and its clean. > Outside seals the corrosion in, inside prevents it from forming IMO. > > However, if the bolt got lose, it would generate heat, which would > melt out any and all material, creating oxidation, more heat and away > you go to failure mode. > > Also the photo doesn’t show split/lock washer. I think its really > important as the lead does flow over time, so no matter how tight you > make it, it will loosen up over time especially with higher > currents/heat. > > The lock washer will buy you some time before needing to retorque the > fasteners. > > I’m curious about the damage mode to the inverter and all that. I > don’t understand how a short on the battery would destroy all the > electronics? > > I’ve gone to a battery angle grinder with flappy wheel to prep the > terminal posts. - fast. >> > > My response to him. > > I wondered about the failure of those big expensive components too, > but I have never had a dead short for more than a split second at the > batteries (a few misplaced cables when working too quickly are easily > dealt with). I have been installing a catastrophic class T fuse > between the battery bank and the DC distribution center breaker also. > > I would always buff the cable ends with a green scrubbie and file the > battery terminals to remove any corrosion and then lightly coat all > surfaces, including all the hardware thoroughly (incldng lock > washer), with petroleum jelly before assembling and tightening (very > tight - tight as I could without breaking the hardware, lead starts to > compress). I've been very happy with doing it this way for 30+ years. > Learned much of this from Peter Talmage and Rob Wills here back east > as well as from Richard Perez (RIP). > > Dave > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *cwarfel > *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 9:54 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic > battery system failure > > Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared? Chris > > On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received > today. I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE > techs not familiar enough with proper battery bank care and as a > reminder for those of us with years of storage battery experience. > > I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied > below my bullet points to highlight the teachable issues. > > ·Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but > also for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well: > #1) Use an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a > similar moderate temperature. #2) Use your fingers to check > temperatures. I'm practiced at this second method because > inexpensive IR thermometers were not available when I began to > care for storage batteries. I simply use my bare fingers (with a > light coating of petroleum jelly) to wiggle test each battery > cable at the battery terminal. Fingers are sensitive enough to > gauge proper temperature. I have easily found several warm or hot > connection points over the years caused by loose or corroded > hardware. Do this as preventive maintenance every time you water > the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed cells. Corrective measures > (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or replacing, and > reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual > connection is identified. > > ·It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any > "anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been > discussed a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of > us have found that a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is > one brand) does the best job of protecting against corrosion while > still allowing some visual inspection. > > from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17. << This past summer Backwoods had a > visit from one of our retired co-workers, xxxxx. While it is > always good to have friends visit, the circumstances for his > dropping by were less than ideal. > > A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery > bank, two inverters, and a voltage converter. Ultimately, the > failure was traced back to a single nut and bolt in the battery > bank cable connections, that had developed hidden corrosion over > time. Corrosion causes resistance to the flow of electricity, > which in turn generates heat. With enough corrosion, and enough > current flow, the amount of heat generated can be sufficient to > melt battery terminal connections; which is exactly what happened > in xxxxx’s case. The melted metal flowed between the negative and > positive terminals of his industrial battery, causing a high power > short that was beyond the capabilities of any of the circuit > protection, resulting in the damage to the equipment. > > Now keep in mind, xxxxx is one of the more detail-oriented people > we’ve had here at Backwoods. The discipline of a military > background, along with critical thinking of an engineer, were > still not enough to overlook one very tiny detail. xxxxx does his > mechanical maintenance on a routine schedule; _checking for > tightness in wiring connections_, cleaning accumulated spray off > battery tops, cleaning out dust and spider webs, _and keeping his > battery terminal posts coated with anti-corrosion paste._ This is > not the type of person you’d expect to see such a failure. > > So what happened? It all boiled down to the battery terminal > connections. What xxxxx had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and > bolts from the battery terminals and cables to check for internal, > hidden corrosion. It had been about 6 years since he had done > that level of inspection. When previously reviewed, the hardware > had been thoroughly inspected, cleaned, and re-assembled, and then > coated with _anti-corrosion paste on the exterior_. In one of the > 16 nut/bolt pairs, a small bit of contamination or moisture must > have been left trapped inside. Over the course of the next six > years, the corrosion grew, contaminating the entire connection; > but was NOT visible externally at all! >> > > Best regards, > > Dave > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 cell > > 802-888-4917 home > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > Entech Engineering, Inc. > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat Jan 21 11:13:10 2017 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 08:13:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure In-Reply-To: <002f01d273fe$5231f9a0$f695ece0$@com> References: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> <002f01d273fe$5231f9a0$f695ece0$@com> Message-ID: <1485015190.410232389@email.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: P1151383-s.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 225500 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: P1151380-s.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 365993 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Jan 21 15:05:02 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:05:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure In-Reply-To: <002f01d273fe$5231f9a0$f695ece0$@com> References: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> <002f01d273fe$5231f9a0$f695ece0$@com> Message-ID: <0cc50c58-4fc7-77ab-f633-b040513f7aac@solarray.com> HI Dave; Based on the evidence, I might suspect a short in the inverter, or the inverter was feeding a heavy load when the melt down occurred. I can't see how a short at the battery would cause an inverter failure, unless the melted lead caused the polarity to be reversed, or created a positive grounded system. My theory is that the Catastrophic Electronics failure may have occurred first, and then the subsequent high current caused the battery melt down. If the resistance were high enough at the battery terminal, then the current flow might have been low enough to not blow the Fuse. 250 amps across a 6 volt drop at a bad connection would not trip a breaker or trip the inverter LVD, but would be 1500 watts of concentrated heat that is going to melt lead very quickly. We had a case a couple of years ago, where we switched from our tried and true Vaseline, to an anti-corrosion paste made especially for batteries. We thought it was an "improvement". However, the grit in the paste kept the connection from making full contact, and when we were operating the inverters at full capacity, a battery terminal started smoking. We shut the system down before the lead started melting, but I'm sure that would have happened soon after. We cleaned the paste off, redid all the connections with a complete coating of Vaseline, and now *only apply the paste after the connection is tight, never to the contact surfaces*. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/21/2017 8:52 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > I don't have any pictures myself, the Backwoods email included a photo > of a corroded bolt and a clean assembly which I've snipped and attached. > > Off the Wrenches list I have had a conversation with another wrench > who shared his successful methods which I will share here. > > << The issue I remember from before on this thread was do you put the > material between the lug and post or outside of it? > > And I’m not sure from the article if it was put on between or outside? > > Personally I’ve done between and never had a problem. Yes I’ve seen > corrosion around the lug, but take the lug off and its clean. > Outside seals the corrosion in, inside prevents it from forming IMO. > > However, if the bolt got lose, it would generate heat, which would > melt out any and all material, creating oxidation, more heat and away > you go to failure mode. > > Also the photo doesn’t show split/lock washer. I think its really > important as the lead does flow over time, so no matter how tight you > make it, it will loosen up over time especially with higher > currents/heat. > > The lock washer will buy you some time before needing to retorque the > fasteners. > > I’m curious about the damage mode to the inverter and all that. I > don’t understand how a short on the battery would destroy all the > electronics? > > I’ve gone to a battery angle grinder with flappy wheel to prep the > terminal posts. - fast. >> > > My response to him. > > I wondered about the failure of those big expensive components too, > but I have never had a dead short for more than a split second at the > batteries (a few misplaced cables when working too quickly are easily > dealt with). I have been installing a catastrophic class T fuse > between the battery bank and the DC distribution center breaker also. > > I would always buff the cable ends with a green scrubbie and file the > battery terminals to remove any corrosion and then lightly coat all > surfaces, including all the hardware thoroughly (incldng lock > washer), with petroleum jelly before assembling and tightening (very > tight - tight as I could without breaking the hardware, lead starts to > compress). I've been very happy with doing it this way for 30+ years. > Learned much of this from Peter Talmage and Rob Wills here back east > as well as from Richard Perez (RIP). > > Dave > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *cwarfel > *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 9:54 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic > battery system failure > > Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared? Chris > > On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received > today. I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE > techs not familiar enough with proper battery bank care and as a > reminder for those of us with years of storage battery experience. > > I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied > below my bullet points to highlight the teachable issues. > > ·Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but > also for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well: > #1) Use an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a > similar moderate temperature. #2) Use your fingers to check > temperatures. I'm practiced at this second method because > inexpensive IR thermometers were not available when I began to > care for storage batteries. I simply use my bare fingers (with a > light coating of petroleum jelly) to wiggle test each battery > cable at the battery terminal. Fingers are sensitive enough to > gauge proper temperature. I have easily found several warm or hot > connection points over the years caused by loose or corroded > hardware. Do this as preventive maintenance every time you water > the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed cells. Corrective measures > (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or replacing, and > reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual > connection is identified. > > ·It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any > "anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been > discussed a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of > us have found that a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is > one brand) does the best job of protecting against corrosion while > still allowing some visual inspection. > > from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17. << This past summer Backwoods had a > visit from one of our retired co-workers, xxxxx. While it is > always good to have friends visit, the circumstances for his > dropping by were less than ideal. > > A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery > bank, two inverters, and a voltage converter. Ultimately, the > failure was traced back to a single nut and bolt in the battery > bank cable connections, that had developed hidden corrosion over > time. Corrosion causes resistance to the flow of electricity, > which in turn generates heat. With enough corrosion, and enough > current flow, the amount of heat generated can be sufficient to > melt battery terminal connections; which is exactly what happened > in xxxxx’s case. The melted metal flowed between the negative and > positive terminals of his industrial battery, causing a high power > short that was beyond the capabilities of any of the circuit > protection, resulting in the damage to the equipment. > > Now keep in mind, xxxxx is one of the more detail-oriented people > we’ve had here at Backwoods. The discipline of a military > background, along with critical thinking of an engineer, were > still not enough to overlook one very tiny detail. xxxxx does his > mechanical maintenance on a routine schedule; _checking for > tightness in wiring connections_, cleaning accumulated spray off > battery tops, cleaning out dust and spider webs, _and keeping his > battery terminal posts coated with anti-corrosion paste._ This is > not the type of person you’d expect to see such a failure. > > So what happened? It all boiled down to the battery terminal > connections. What xxxxx had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and > bolts from the battery terminals and cables to check for internal, > hidden corrosion. It had been about 6 years since he had done > that level of inspection. When previously reviewed, the hardware > had been thoroughly inspected, cleaned, and re-assembled, and then > coated with _anti-corrosion paste on the exterior_. In one of the > 16 nut/bolt pairs, a small bit of contamination or moisture must > have been left trapped inside. Over the course of the next six > years, the corrosion grew, contaminating the entire connection; > but was NOT visible externally at all! >> > > Best regards, > > Dave > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 cell > > 802-888-4917 home > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > Entech Engineering, Inc. > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Sat Jan 21 16:39:18 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 16:39:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure In-Reply-To: <0cc50c58-4fc7-77ab-f633-b040513f7aac@solarray.com> References: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> <002f01d273fe$5231f9a0$f695ece0$@com> <0cc50c58-4fc7-77ab-f633-b040513f7aac@solarray.com> Message-ID: <006e01d2742e$d355f830$7a01e890$@com> Hello Ray, Good thinking on the inverter failure part in all of this and thanks for sharing your experience with a smoking hot battery terminal. Good point on using the Vaseline with making the connections before using any gritty coating. Some good reminders/lessons on making good battery connections. Dave From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 3:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure HI Dave; Based on the evidence, I might suspect a short in the inverter, or the inverter was feeding a heavy load when the melt down occurred. I can't see how a short at the battery would cause an inverter failure, unless the melted lead caused the polarity to be reversed, or created a positive grounded system. My theory is that the Catastrophic Electronics failure may have occurred first, and then the subsequent high current caused the battery melt down. If the resistance were high enough at the battery terminal, then the current flow might have been low enough to not blow the Fuse. 250 amps across a 6 volt drop at a bad connection would not trip a breaker or trip the inverter LVD, but would be 1500 watts of concentrated heat that is going to melt lead very quickly. We had a case a couple of years ago, where we switched from our tried and true Vaseline, to an anti-corrosion paste made especially for batteries. We thought it was an "improvement". However, the grit in the paste kept the connection from making full contact, and when we were operating the inverters at full capacity, a battery terminal started smoking. We shut the system down before the lead started melting, but I'm sure that would have happened soon after. We cleaned the paste off, redid all the connections with a complete coating of Vaseline, and now only apply the paste after the connection is tight, never to the contact surfaces. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/21/2017 8:52 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Hi Chris, I don't have any pictures myself, the Backwoods email included a photo of a corroded bolt and a clean assembly which I've snipped and attached. Off the Wrenches list I have had a conversation with another wrench who shared his successful methods which I will share here. << The issue I remember from before on this thread was do you put the material between the lug and post or outside of it? And I'm not sure from the article if it was put on between or outside? Personally I've done between and never had a problem. Yes I've seen corrosion around the lug, but take the lug off and its clean. Outside seals the corrosion in, inside prevents it from forming IMO. However, if the bolt got lose, it would generate heat, which would melt out any and all material, creating oxidation, more heat and away you go to failure mode. Also the photo doesn't show split/lock washer. I think its really important as the lead does flow over time, so no matter how tight you make it, it will loosen up over time especially with higher currents/heat. The lock washer will buy you some time before needing to retorque the fasteners. I'm curious about the damage mode to the inverter and all that. I don't understand how a short on the battery would destroy all the electronics? I've gone to a battery angle grinder with flappy wheel to prep the terminal posts. - fast. >> My response to him. I wondered about the failure of those big expensive components too, but I have never had a dead short for more than a split second at the batteries (a few misplaced cables when working too quickly are easily dealt with). I have been installing a catastrophic class T fuse between the battery bank and the DC distribution center breaker also. I would always buff the cable ends with a green scrubbie and file the battery terminals to remove any corrosion and then lightly coat all surfaces, including all the hardware thoroughly (incldng lock washer), with petroleum jelly before assembling and tightening (very tight - tight as I could without breaking the hardware, lead starts to compress). I've been very happy with doing it this way for 30+ years. Learned much of this from Peter Talmage and Rob Wills here back east as well as from Richard Perez (RIP). Dave From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of cwarfel Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 9:54 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared? Chris On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received today. I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE techs not familiar enough with proper battery bank care and as a reminder for those of us with years of storage battery experience. I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied below my bullet points to highlight the teachable issues. . Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but also for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well: #1) Use an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a similar moderate temperature. #2) Use your fingers to check temperatures. I'm practiced at this second method because inexpensive IR thermometers were not available when I began to care for storage batteries. I simply use my bare fingers (with a light coating of petroleum jelly) to wiggle test each battery cable at the battery terminal. Fingers are sensitive enough to gauge proper temperature. I have easily found several warm or hot connection points over the years caused by loose or corroded hardware. Do this as preventive maintenance every time you water the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed cells. Corrective measures (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or replacing, and reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual connection is identified. . It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any "anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been discussed a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of us have found that a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is one brand) does the best job of protecting against corrosion while still allowing some visual inspection. from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17. << This past summer Backwoods had a visit from one of our retired co-workers, xxxxx. While it is always good to have friends visit, the circumstances for his dropping by were less than ideal. A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery bank, two inverters, and a voltage converter. Ultimately, the failure was traced back to a single nut and bolt in the battery bank cable connections, that had developed hidden corrosion over time. Corrosion causes resistance to the flow of electricity, which in turn generates heat. With enough corrosion, and enough current flow, the amount of heat generated can be sufficient to melt battery terminal connections; which is exactly what happened in xxxxx's case. The melted metal flowed between the negative and positive terminals of his industrial battery, causing a high power short that was beyond the capabilities of any of the circuit protection, resulting in the damage to the equipment. Now keep in mind, xxxxx is one of the more detail-oriented people we've had here at Backwoods. The discipline of a military background, along with critical thinking of an engineer, were still not enough to overlook one very tiny detail. xxxxx does his mechanical maintenance on a routine schedule; checking for tightness in wiring connections, cleaning accumulated spray off battery tops, cleaning out dust and spider webs, and keeping his battery terminal posts coated with anti-corrosion paste. This is not the type of person you'd expect to see such a failure. So what happened? It all boiled down to the battery terminal connections. What xxxxx had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and bolts from the battery terminals and cables to check for internal, hidden corrosion. It had been about 6 years since he had done that level of inspection. When previously reviewed, the hardware had been thoroughly inspected, cleaned, and re-assembled, and then coated with anti-corrosion paste on the exterior. In one of the 16 nut/bolt pairs, a small bit of contamination or moisture must have been left trapped inside. Over the course of the next six years, the corrosion grew, contaminating the entire connection; but was NOT visible externally at all! >> Best regards, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jan 21 17:16:48 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:16:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure In-Reply-To: <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> References: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Last weekend. 3-year old, 24v battery bank, series/parallel. 6v Trojan L-16 in an 8-battery bank, one battery on one string showing 4v. Negative end of string. Replaced the one upstream of it last summer, same problem. Aha! I say, and folks here on the Wrenches list (including me) complaining about Trojan cell failures, factory defects (I've had one too) and that the battery on the negative end fails first. Darn you Trojan. Up your game. 3yr - 3yr - 3yr - 3yr 4v - new - bubbling - 3yr So as I am disconnecting this string so the homeowner has at least half a battery bank, I can hear the next battery upstream of the NEW one bubbling, with no power in or out, system shut down. Didn't need the thermal imager this time, we could feel it was hot. And, as we are doing this disconnect and pulling off interconnects, the cable between the 4v battery and the new one pulled right out of the ring terminal lug. Bad crimp. Cause of problem now known. These were factory interconnects purchased from AltEDirect.com. Never again...I have the tools to make up interconnects and do it on small projects, it's just they are so time consuming to do right (crimper, glue-melt heat shrink, etc) that it costs me more in labor (unless I have student interns working for free) than buying them from AltE. That crappy crimp cost my customer 3 Trojan L-16s. I have notified AltE. They should be ashamed. I believe it was Mr. Tom Duffy, SolarBiz, on this list who pointed out during the Trojan thread that cell failures were rare, most failures are due bad connections. I've had a real cell failure (Trojan J185) but in this case, Mr. Duffy was spot-on. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 7:54 AM, cwarfel wrote: > Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared? Chris > > On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received today. > I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE techs not familiar > enough with proper battery bank care and as a reminder for those of us with > years of storage battery experience. > > I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied below my > bullet points to highlight the teachable issues. > > · Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but > also for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well: #1) Use > an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a similar moderate > temperature. #2) Use your fingers to check temperatures. I'm practiced at > this second method because inexpensive IR thermometers were not available > when I began to care for storage batteries. I simply use my bare fingers > (with a light coating of petroleum jelly) to wiggle test each battery cable > at the battery terminal. Fingers are sensitive enough to gauge proper > temperature. I have easily found several warm or hot connection points over > the years caused by loose or corroded hardware. Do this as preventive > maintenance every time you water the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed > cells. Corrective measures (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or > replacing, and reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual > connection is identified. > > · It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any > "anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been discussed > a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of us have found that > a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is one brand) does the best job > of protecting against corrosion while still allowing some visual inspection. > > from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17. << This past summer Backwoods had a visit > from one of our retired co-workers, xxxxx. While it is always good to have > friends visit, the circumstances for his dropping by were less than ideal. > > A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery bank, two > inverters, and a voltage converter. Ultimately, the failure was traced > back to a single nut and bolt in the battery bank cable connections, that > had developed hidden corrosion over time. Corrosion causes resistance to > the flow of electricity, which in turn generates heat. With enough > corrosion, and enough current flow, the amount of heat generated can be > sufficient to melt battery terminal connections; which is exactly what > happened in xxxxx’s case. The melted metal flowed between the negative and > positive terminals of his industrial battery, causing a high power short > that was beyond the capabilities of any of the circuit protection, > resulting in the damage to the equipment. > > Now keep in mind, xxxxx is one of the more detail-oriented people we’ve > had here at Backwoods. The discipline of a military background, along with > critical thinking of an engineer, were still not enough to overlook one > very tiny detail. xxxxx does his mechanical maintenance on a routine > schedule; *checking for tightness in wiring connections*, cleaning > accumulated spray off battery tops, cleaning out dust and spider webs, *and > keeping his battery terminal posts coated with anti-corrosion paste.* > This is not the type of person you’d expect to see such a failure. > > So what happened? It all boiled down to the battery terminal > connections. What xxxxx had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and bolts > from the battery terminals and cables to check for internal, hidden > corrosion. It had been about 6 years since he had done that level of > inspection. When previously reviewed, the hardware had been thoroughly > inspected, cleaned, and re-assembled, and then coated with *anti-corrosion > paste on the exterior*. In one of the 16 nut/bolt pairs, a small bit of > contamination or moisture must have been left trapped inside. Over the > course of the next six years, the corrosion grew, contaminating the entire > connection; but was NOT visible externally at all! >> > > Best regards, > > Dave > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 <(802)%20371-8678> cell > > 802-888-4917 <(802)%20888-4917> home > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > Entech Engineering, Inc.401-466-8978 <(401)%20466-8978> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Jan 21 20:29:54 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 18:29:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure In-Reply-To: References: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <83f43ea5-164c-a37b-f751-cffd3a42b33e@solarray.com> When I'm evaluating an old system, one thing I do is really yank on all the battery connections. If it turns, tighten it down, and in several cases, the cable just pulls loose from the connector. They are time consuming to do right. Cable has to be stripped long enough, the crimper needs to be set correctly, and be the right crimper for the particular lug. Below is an example of: the wrong cable (THHN, not X Flex) Not enough cable stripped Wrong Size Lug Not Crimped Properly Not Vaselined Now let's put 150 amps continuous through that garbage and see if we have some long term issues...... R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/21/2017 3:16 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Last weekend. 3-year old, 24v battery bank, series/parallel. > 6v Trojan L-16 in an 8-battery bank, one battery on one string showing > 4v. Negative end of string. Replaced the one upstream of it last > summer, same problem. Aha! I say, and folks here on the Wrenches list > (including me) complaining about Trojan cell failures, factory defects > (I've had one too) and that the battery on the negative end fails > first. Darn you Trojan. Up your game. > > 3yr - 3yr - 3yr - 3yr > 4v - new - bubbling - 3yr > > So as I am disconnecting this string so the homeowner has at least > half a battery bank, I can hear the next battery upstream of the NEW > one bubbling, with no power in or out, system shut down. Didn't need > the thermal imager this time, we could feel it was hot. > > And, as we are doing this disconnect and pulling off interconnects, > the cable between the 4v battery and the new one pulled right out of > the ring terminal lug. Bad crimp. Cause of problem now known. These > were factory interconnects purchased from AltEDirect.com. > > Never again...I have the tools to make up interconnects and do it on > small projects, it's just they are so time consuming to do right > (crimper, glue-melt heat shrink, etc) that it costs me more in labor > (unless I have student interns working for free) than buying them from > AltE. > > That crappy crimp cost my customer 3 Trojan L-16s. I have notified > AltE. They should be ashamed. > > I believe it was Mr. Tom Duffy, SolarBiz, on this list who pointed out > during the Trojan thread that cell failures were rare, most failures > are due bad connections. I've had a real cell failure (Trojan J185) > but in this case, Mr. Duffy was spot-on. > > Best regards; > > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 7:54 AM, cwarfel > > wrote: > > Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared? > Chris > > > On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: >> >> Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I >> received today. I would like to share this as a teachable point >> for RE techs not familiar enough with proper battery bank care >> and as a reminder for those of us with years of storage battery >> experience. >> >> I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied >> below my bullet points to highlight the teachable issues. >> >> ·Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but >> also for temperature. There are two simple methods that work >> well: #1) Use an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of >> a similar moderate temperature. #2) Use your fingers to check >> temperatures. I'm practiced at this second method because >> inexpensive IR thermometers were not available when I began to >> care for storage batteries. I simply use my bare fingers (with a >> light coating of petroleum jelly) to wiggle test each battery >> cable at the battery terminal. Fingers are sensitive enough to >> gauge proper temperature. I have easily found several warm or hot >> connection points over the years caused by loose or corroded >> hardware. Do this as preventive maintenance every time you water >> the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed cells. Corrective >> measures (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or replacing, >> and reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual >> connection is identified. >> >> ·It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any >> "anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been >> discussed a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most >> of us have found that a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline >> is one brand) does the best job of protecting against corrosion >> while still allowing some visual inspection. >> >> from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17. << This past summer Backwoods had >> a visit from one of our retired co-workers, xxxxx. While it is >> always good to have friends visit, the circumstances for his >> dropping by were less than ideal. >> >> A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery >> bank, two inverters, and a voltage converter. Ultimately, the >> failure was traced back to a single nut and bolt in the battery >> bank cable connections, that had developed hidden corrosion over >> time. Corrosion causes resistance to the flow of electricity, >> which in turn generates heat. With enough corrosion, and enough >> current flow, the amount of heat generated can be sufficient to >> melt battery terminal connections; which is exactly what happened >> in xxxxx’s case. The melted metal flowed between the negative and >> positive terminals of his industrial battery, causing a high >> power short that was beyond the capabilities of any of the >> circuit protection, resulting in the damage to the equipment. >> >> Now keep in mind, xxxxx is one of the more detail-oriented people >> we’ve had here at Backwoods. The discipline of a military >> background, along with critical thinking of an engineer, were >> still not enough to overlook one very tiny detail. xxxxx does >> his mechanical maintenance on a routine schedule; _checking for >> tightness in wiring connections_, cleaning accumulated spray off >> battery tops, cleaning out dust and spider webs, _and keeping his >> battery terminal posts coated with anti-corrosion paste._ This >> is not the type of person you’d expect to see such a failure. >> >> So what happened? It all boiled down to the battery terminal >> connections. What xxxxx had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and >> bolts from the battery terminals and cables to check for >> internal, hidden corrosion. It had been about 6 years since he >> had done that level of inspection. When previously reviewed, the >> hardware had been thoroughly inspected, cleaned, and >> re-assembled, and then coated with _anti-corrosion paste on the >> exterior_. In one of the 16 nut/bolt pairs, a small bit of >> contamination or moisture must have been left trapped inside. >> Over the course of the next six years, the corrosion grew, >> contaminating the entire connection; but was NOT visible >> externally at all! >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Dave >> >> David Palumbo >> >> Independent Power LLC >> >> 462 Solar Way Drive >> >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> >> 802-371-8678 cell >> >> 802-888-4917 home >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > Entech Engineering, Inc. > 401-466-8978 > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email > address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update > participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pcbhomkofijehnfb.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 74110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jan 21 22:39:50 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:39:50 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure In-Reply-To: References: <012701d27346$04fb9ff0$0ef2dfd0$@com> <6efbe392-5f3c-bc87-2350-71a34029d3f1@entech-engineering.com> <002f01d273fe$5231f9a0$f695ece0$@com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have been around batteries for many years and I have had poor battery construction issues and installation issues but in most cases, failures can be avoided by visual inspections and not the fire and forget that so many people that think maintenance free means. The trogan pic is a result of a over heated terminal as the plastic will not corrode but instead melt, loose connection resulting from improper crimp, gauge of wire, over/under torg of the terminal being the most common, not crimped is not a common problem. Over torq of the stud will crack the lead and result in failure down the road, under torq happens sooner and may just cause an open in the circuit or god forbid a spark, both are installer issues not battery manufactures. Over-filling of batteries attempting to reduce service intervals is another common issue on flooded batteries and will boil over of acid all over and a diluted SG both reducing the life of the battery again not a manufacturing issue. Something that is commonly missed, is all the cable must be at rest when installed and not under a sprung load, this will prevent terminal moving as result, again causing a failure and possible spark under the right conditions. Something that l did that I think increased the life of my batteries was to rotate position in the 48 volt arrays. I did large scale events off grid and had individual volt meters on each battery and at times there was an imbalance which rotating corrected. because of the nature of what I did l would push the 48 volt system to 38 volts before the LVD would shut me down (Gennys were in most cases not wanted due to the smell and noise). Even with the hard cycling along with being mobile, I would see 6 to 7 years out of my 8-D's and L-16's. FYI, for who ever services FLA batteries get a one gallon weed sprayer, label it for distilled water only, cut the nozzle tip off and you have a easy watering system for your batteries. Jerry On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 5:58 AM, cwarfel wrote: > Thanks Dave, This is all helpful. We do 90% battery systems, and I need > to emphasize periodic maintenance. This will help. Chris > > On 1/21/2017 10:52 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > > > I don't have any pictures myself, the Backwoods email included a photo of > a corroded bolt and a clean assembly which I've snipped and attached. > > > > Off the Wrenches list I have had a conversation with another wrench who > shared his successful methods which I will share here. > > > > << The issue I remember from before on this thread was do you put the > material between the lug and post or outside of it? > > And I’m not sure from the article if it was put on between or outside? > > > > Personally I’ve done between and never had a problem. Yes I’ve seen > corrosion around the lug, but take the lug off and its clean. Outside > seals the corrosion in, inside prevents it from forming IMO. > > > > However, if the bolt got lose, it would generate heat, which would melt > out any and all material, creating oxidation, more heat and away you go to > failure mode. > > > > Also the photo doesn’t show split/lock washer. I think its really > important as the lead does flow over time, so no matter how tight you make > it, it will loosen up over time especially with higher currents/heat. > > The lock washer will buy you some time before needing to retorque the > fasteners. > > > > I’m curious about the damage mode to the inverter and all that. I don’t > understand how a short on the battery would destroy all the electronics? > > > > I’ve gone to a battery angle grinder with flappy wheel to prep the > terminal posts. - fast. >> > > > > My response to him. > > I wondered about the failure of those big expensive components too, but I > have never had a dead short for more than a split second at the batteries > (a few misplaced cables when working too quickly are easily dealt with). I > have been installing a catastrophic class T fuse between the battery bank > and the DC distribution center breaker also. > > > > I would always buff the cable ends with a green scrubbie and file the > battery terminals to remove any corrosion and then lightly coat all > surfaces, including all the hardware thoroughly (incldng lock washer), > with petroleum jelly before assembling and tightening (very tight - tight > as I could without breaking the hardware, lead starts to compress). I've > been very happy with doing it this way for 30+ years. Learned much of this > from Peter Talmage and Rob Wills here back east as well as from Richard > Perez (RIP). > > Dave > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *cwarfel > *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 9:54 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery > system failure > > > > Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared? Chris > > > > On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received today. > I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE techs not familiar > enough with proper battery bank care and as a reminder for those of us with > years of storage battery experience. > > I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied below my > bullet points to highlight the teachable issues. > > · Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but > also for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well: #1) Use > an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a similar moderate > temperature. #2) Use your fingers to check temperatures. I'm practiced at > this second method because inexpensive IR thermometers were not available > when I began to care for storage batteries. I simply use my bare fingers > (with a light coating of petroleum jelly) to wiggle test each battery cable > at the battery terminal. Fingers are sensitive enough to gauge proper > temperature. I have easily found several warm or hot connection points over > the years caused by loose or corroded hardware. Do this as preventive > maintenance every time you water the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed > cells. Corrective measures (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or > replacing, and reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual > connection is identified. > > · It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any > "anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been discussed > a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of us have found that > a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is one brand) does the best job > of protecting against corrosion while still allowing some visual inspection. > > from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17. << This past summer Backwoods had a visit > from one of our retired co-workers, xxxxx. While it is always good to have > friends visit, the circumstances for his dropping by were less than ideal. > > A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery bank, two > inverters, and a voltage converter. Ultimately, the failure was traced > back to a single nut and bolt in the battery bank cable connections, that > had developed hidden corrosion over time. Corrosion causes resistance to > the flow of electricity, which in turn generates heat. With enough > corrosion, and enough current flow, the amount of heat generated can be > sufficient to melt battery terminal connections; which is exactly what > happened in xxxxx’s case. The melted metal flowed between the negative and > positive terminals of his industrial battery, causing a high power short > that was beyond the capabilities of any of the circuit protection, > resulting in the damage to the equipment. > > Now keep in mind, xxxxx is one of the more detail-oriented people we’ve > had here at Backwoods. The discipline of a military background, along with > critical thinking of an engineer, were still not enough to overlook one > very tiny detail. xxxxx does his mechanical maintenance on a routine > schedule; *checking for tightness in wiring connections*, cleaning > accumulated spray off battery tops, cleaning out dust and spider webs, *and > keeping his battery terminal posts coated with anti-corrosion paste.* > This is not the type of person you’d expect to see such a failure. > > So what happened? It all boiled down to the battery terminal > connections. What xxxxx had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and bolts > from the battery terminals and cables to check for internal, hidden > corrosion. It had been about 6 years since he had done that level of > inspection. When previously reviewed, the hardware had been thoroughly > inspected, cleaned, and re-assembled, and then coated with *anti-corrosion > paste on the exterior*. In one of the 16 nut/bolt pairs, a small bit of > contamination or moisture must have been left trapped inside. Over the > course of the next six years, the corrosion grew, contaminating the entire > connection; but was NOT visible externally at all! >> > > Best regards, > > Dave > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 <(802)%20371-8678> cell > > 802-888-4917 <(802)%20888-4917> home > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > > Entech Engineering, Inc. > > 401-466-8978 <(401)%20466-8978> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > Entech Engineering, Inc.401-466-8978 <(401)%20466-8978> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at jordansolar.net Mon Jan 23 13:26:16 2017 From: travis at jordansolar.net (Travis Jordan) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 11:26:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MT Solar / Iron Ridge Issue Message-ID: One of our customers installed 3 of our MT Solar TOP15 pole mounts for his off-grid customer in Vermont this last fall. During a recent severe wind storm 4 modules blew off of the middle array. Two of the mounts also turned on their poles. As the manufacturer of the pole mount we have identified several issues but we are looking for feedback and any information/recommendations from other installers to future proof our design. This thread dovetails with the recent thread about the back-mount module failure, but in this case the modules didn't fail, the bolts just pulled out of the rail! I am assuming that we had greatly in excess of the normal wind speeds at the site, but we have no way of determining what they actually were. Our many other pole mounts installed in Vermont were not affected by the storm. Here is the situation. The site has 3 independent pole mounts with (15) SW285's on each mount and the mounts are separated by roughly 20'. The home owner took the liberty of cranking the mounts all the way to 90 degree tilt for winter to eliminate snow build up. The modules that blew out were not all adjacent to each other. The top two on the left and then two in the middle are the ones that blew out, and they were all on the middle array. The end clamps were still in position and did not fail. Both the end array and the middle array turned on the pole, but the other end array neither moved nor showed any adverse affects at all. The modules that blew off ended up 20' BEHIND the middle array (to the North), and the installer determined that the array did NOT turn clear around since the wires were not pulled out. We are not sure how the modules got behind the array... Regarding the rail failure: The pictures show the rails were not bent but the T bolts had pulled clear out of the top slot of the Iron Ridge rail. Iron Ridge only specifies data for up to 45 degree tilt (not 90 degree), so we assumed responsibility for the rail failure and paid for the 12 modules that were scratched or damaged including the 4 that blew out, but now we are looking for a long term solution. We are changing our manuals to say max 60 degree tilt (is that acceptable to you installers?), and we are looking for a different rail manufacturer than Iron Ridge. We are considering switching to S-Flex so we can get away from the T bolt concept, but we are open to other suggestions? Has anyone else had issues with Iron Ridge clamps failing? Regarding the pole mount turning: The engineers specified two set bolts, and we already had three for a margin of safety. To determine where we are starting from we mounted the pole cap on a jig in the shop press and applied 10,000 ft/lbs of rotational force before the pole cap turned. After changing the back plate design we were able to get that to 15,000 ft/lbs. Adding a 3/8" bolt clear through the pole adds an additional 5,000 ft/lbs of capacity so we are adding a hole in the pole cap for that as well. This puts us at double of what we had, but we are reaching out to see if anyone has more actual data from the field to add to the mix since we are already above and beyond engineering data. We are also re-visiting the topic with another engineering firm to determine if they have any additional data. We have also agreed to compensate the installer for his time to repair the system, whatever he chooses to invoice us for. As soon as this issue is resolved we plan to provide a kit to modify all of our 15 module and bigger mounts that are already installed to insure this does not happen again! Eric, if you have any additional info or corrections to add as the installer please chime in! Looking forward to any questions, comments, or feedback any of you have! Thanks in advance, Travis Jordan travis at jordansolar.net travis at mtsolar.us Direct: 406-206-5105 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Mon Jan 23 16:12:43 2017 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 15:12:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MT Solar / Iron Ridge Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d455b16-5a26-6516-e1f5-b3ba389de3e4@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Mon Jan 23 16:33:57 2017 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 16:33:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MT Solar / Iron Ridge Issue In-Reply-To: <6d455b16-5a26-6516-e1f5-b3ba389de3e4@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <6d455b16-5a26-6516-e1f5-b3ba389de3e4@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: I whole heartedly agree with Gary! Having been on the site (but not responsible for the install) I looked at the carnage with an eye toward either installation error or equipment shortfall. I could see nothing that indicated either and was amazed at the failure. There were no trees down, no visible other wind damage, just trashed equipment from clearly a very powerful, likely narrow, wind burst. I've never seen IronRidge fail before like this either, having used it now for several years. I've only used MT a couple of times, but have been impressed with the smart and robust design. Thank you Travis for supporting Eric in specific and Wrenches in general! Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jan 23, 2017 4:14 PM, "Gary Willett" wrote: TRAVIS: I have nothing technical to add. However, I am very impressed that your company stood up, took ownership of the issue, responsibility for the solution, and the good sense and humility to ask for advice. That is so rare in today's world! Best regards to you and your company! Gary Willett PE Icarus Engineering LLC Irving TX On 1/23/17 12:26 PM, Travis Jordan wrote: One of our customers installed 3 of our MT Solar TOP15 pole mounts for his off-grid customer in Vermont this last fall. During a recent severe wind storm 4 modules blew off of the middle array. Two of the mounts also turned on their poles. As the manufacturer of the pole mount we have identified several issues but we are looking for feedback and any information/recommendations from other installers to future proof our design. This thread dovetails with the recent thread about the back-mount module failure, but in this case the modules didn't fail, the bolts just pulled out of the rail! I am assuming that we had greatly in excess of the normal wind speeds at the site, but we have no way of determining what they actually were. Our many other pole mounts installed in Vermont were not affected by the storm. Here is the situation. The site has 3 independent pole mounts with (15) SW285's on each mount and the mounts are separated by roughly 20'. The home owner took the liberty of cranking the mounts all the way to 90 degree tilt for winter to eliminate snow build up. The modules that blew out were not all adjacent to each other. The top two on the left and then two in the middle are the ones that blew out, and they were all on the middle array. The end clamps were still in position and did not fail. Both the end array and the middle array turned on the pole, but the other end array neither moved nor showed any adverse affects at all. The modules that blew off ended up 20' BEHIND the middle array (to the North), and the installer determined that the array did NOT turn clear around since the wires were not pulled out. We are not sure how the modules got behind the array... Regarding the rail failure: The pictures show the rails were not bent but the T bolts had pulled clear out of the top slot of the Iron Ridge rail. Iron Ridge only specifies data for up to 45 degree tilt (not 90 degree), so we assumed responsibility for the rail failure and paid for the 12 modules that were scratched or damaged including the 4 that blew out, but now we are looking for a long term solution. We are changing our manuals to say max 60 degree tilt (is that acceptable to you installers?), and we are looking for a different rail manufacturer than Iron Ridge. We are considering switching to S-Flex so we can get away from the T bolt concept, but we are open to other suggestions? Has anyone else had issues with Iron Ridge clamps failing? Regarding the pole mount turning: The engineers specified two set bolts, and we already had three for a margin of safety. To determine where we are starting from we mounted the pole cap on a jig in the shop press and applied 10,000 ft/lbs of rotational force before the pole cap turned. After changing the back plate design we were able to get that to 15,000 ft/lbs. Adding a 3/8" bolt clear through the pole adds an additional 5,000 ft/lbs of capacity so we are adding a hole in the pole cap for that as well. This puts us at double of what we had, but we are reaching out to see if anyone has more actual data from the field to add to the mix since we are already above and beyond engineering data. We are also re-visiting the topic with another engineering firm to determine if they have any additional data. We have also agreed to compensate the installer for his time to repair the system, whatever he chooses to invoice us for. As soon as this issue is resolved we plan to provide a kit to modify all of our 15 module and bigger mounts that are already installed to insure this does not happen again! Eric, if you have any additional info or corrections to add as the installer please chime in! Looking forward to any questions, comments, or feedback any of you have! Thanks in advance, Travis Jordan travis at jordansolar.net travis at mtsolar.us Direct: 406-206-5105 <(406)%20206-5105> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Jan 23 16:51:19 2017 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 16:51:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MT Solar / Iron Ridge Issue In-Reply-To: References: <6d455b16-5a26-6516-e1f5-b3ba389de3e4@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Here at Solar & Wind FX 95% of our installs are poles or DAT's. We changed over to MT I believe 3 seasons ago. I've got several of their 16 and 15 module racks out there. I did have a 15 module rack rotate on me this past fall. It was a two pole system but only one rotated about 10 degrees. No damage, no worries. The rack was at a winter tilt angle but not 90 degrees. I use a 3/4 drive ratchet to tighten. While the through bolt you are considering using is a thought, all our poles are schedule 80 8" pipe and would be a real bitch to drill through especially at ladder height. Might I suggest your backing plate which has the locking/engaging bolts have a couple of pointed edges that would dig into the pole when tightened. Perhaps even the bolts them selves have a point in them? With the DAT's we use a 3/8" roll pin to keep them from rotating on top of the large bolts that hold it in place. Now for our units in the higher elevations and heavier snow falls we do in fact leave them @ 90 degrees for obvious reasons. Keep up the great work and I intend to keep buying from you. Christopher Schaefer, Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > I whole heartedly agree with Gary! > > Having been on the site (but not responsible for the install) I looked at > the carnage with an eye toward either installation error or equipment > shortfall. I could see nothing that indicated either and was amazed at the > failure. There were no trees down, no visible other wind damage, just > trashed equipment from clearly a very powerful, likely narrow, wind burst. > I've never seen IronRidge fail before like this either, having used it now > for several years. I've only used MT a couple of times, but have been > impressed with the smart and robust design. > > Thank you Travis for supporting Eric in specific and Wrenches in general! > > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 <(802)%20272-0004> > > On Jan 23, 2017 4:14 PM, "Gary Willett" > wrote: > > TRAVIS: > > I have nothing technical to add. > > However, I am very impressed that your company stood up, took ownership of > the issue, responsibility for the solution, and the good sense and humility > to ask for advice. That is so rare in today's world! > > Best regards to you and your company! > Gary Willett PE > Icarus Engineering LLC > Irving TX > > > On 1/23/17 12:26 PM, Travis Jordan wrote: > > One of our customers installed 3 of our MT Solar TOP15 pole mounts for his > off-grid customer in Vermont this last fall. During a recent severe wind > storm 4 modules blew off of the middle array. Two of the mounts also turned > on their poles. As the manufacturer of the pole mount we have identified > several issues but we are looking for feedback and any > information/recommendations from other installers to future proof our > design. This thread dovetails with the recent thread about the back-mount > module failure, but in this case the modules didn't fail, the bolts just > pulled out of the rail! I am assuming that we had greatly in excess of the > normal wind speeds at the site, but we have no way of determining what they > actually were. Our many other pole mounts installed in Vermont were not > affected by the storm. > > Here is the situation. The site has 3 independent pole mounts with (15) > SW285's on each mount and the mounts are separated by roughly 20'. The home > owner took the liberty of cranking the mounts all the way to 90 degree tilt > for winter to eliminate snow build up. The modules that blew out were not > all adjacent to each other. The top two on the left and then two in the > middle are the ones that blew out, and they were all on the middle array. > The end clamps were still in position and did not fail. Both the end array > and the middle array turned on the pole, but the other end array neither > moved nor showed any adverse affects at all. The modules that blew off > ended up 20' BEHIND the middle array (to the North), and the installer > determined that the array did NOT turn clear around since the wires were > not pulled out. We are not sure how the modules got behind the array... > > Regarding the rail failure: > The pictures show the rails were not bent but the T bolts had pulled clear > out of the top slot of the Iron Ridge rail. Iron Ridge only specifies data > for up to 45 degree tilt (not 90 degree), so we assumed responsibility for > the rail failure and paid for the 12 modules that were scratched or damaged > including the 4 that blew out, but now we are looking for a long term > solution. We are changing our manuals to say max 60 degree tilt (is that > acceptable to you installers?), and we are looking for a different rail > manufacturer than Iron Ridge. We are considering switching to S-Flex so we > can get away from the T bolt concept, but we are open to other suggestions? > Has anyone else had issues with Iron Ridge clamps failing? > > Regarding the pole mount turning: > The engineers specified two set bolts, and we already had three for a > margin of safety. To determine where we are starting from we mounted the > pole cap on a jig in the shop press and applied 10,000 ft/lbs of rotational > force before the pole cap turned. After changing the back plate design we > were able to get that to 15,000 ft/lbs. Adding a 3/8" bolt clear through > the pole adds an additional 5,000 ft/lbs of capacity so we are adding a > hole in the pole cap for that as well. This puts us at double of what we > had, but we are reaching out to see if anyone has more actual data from the > field to add to the mix since we are already above and beyond engineering > data. We are also re-visiting the topic with another engineering firm to > determine if they have any additional data. We have also agreed to > compensate the installer for his time to repair the system, whatever he > chooses to invoice us for. As soon as this issue is resolved we plan to > provide a kit to modify all of our 15 module and bigger mounts that are > already installed to insure this does not happen again! > > Eric, if you have any additional info or corrections to add as the > installer please chime in! > > Looking forward to any questions, comments, or feedback any of you have! > > Thanks in advance, > > Travis Jordan > travis at jordansolar.net > travis at mtsolar.us > Direct: 406-206-5105 <(406)%20206-5105> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Tue Jan 24 16:16:30 2017 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 13:16:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off topic items Message-ID: <481824.35782.bm@smtp116.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi there gang. If you have any questions, please contact me off list. Here's my occasional reminder about not posting off topic items. 1. Don't post jokes, thanks, apologies, news items, chit-chat, events, politics, marketing, virus info, or anything else that is off-topic. 2. Don't respond on-list to others' off topic posts. 3. Don't post items that are available for sale, either from you or from others. 3a. From time to time people post items that they need but are having problems locating (like an older model PV module to replace a broken one), but these requests should be responded to off-list. And these requests should state within them, something like "if you have one, please contact me off list." 4. If you have a message that is intended for individuals who are on the list, like "thanks" or "yes, I have one of those things you are looking for," don't send it to the whole list -- just send it to the individuals. 5. Do not post administrative inquiries, but rather send them to me off-list. 6. And finally, a reminder to never post job leads of any kind on the list. Thank-you. [The RE-Wrenches listserver and other associated lists are managed by Michael Welch, through Redwood Alliance, a nonprofit energy-related environmental organization.] From william at millersolar.com Tue Jan 24 19:05:16 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 16:05:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any California PG&E territory wrenches wish to discuss rate tariffs? Message-ID: <3fdc5b7ced486de3168b91177ed73049@mail.gmail.com> Ca Wrenches: I am analyzing the New PG&E NEM2 program tariff rates. I’d like to start a conversation with any Wrenches off-line about the subject. william at millersolar.com Thanks, William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 25 23:49:25 2017 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2017 22:49:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand charges Message-ID: <023f01d2778f$92f2f3b0$b8d8db10$@sbcglobal.net> This is the trend for all of us no matter where the utility, so we need to kick this around fairly well. We had a thread maybe a month ago about hardware to allow our customers to first monitor their household consumption and then load shift with a series of lockout relays. Attached is a listing of various hardware that is being offered during that thread. We've got to know this stuff and offer this hardware to our future and probably existing system owners as a value added service.can also increase our bottom line. While California's laws often become the rest or our future, it would be helpful to have general emails presented to the list as a whole. Thanks for keeping this discussion alive. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Monitoring Control 2017.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1254753 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Thu Jan 26 09:06:47 2017 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 14:06:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand Charges Message-ID: In Florida it is not unusable to have a $700 dollar demand charge AND only a $165 electric useage charge . A classic example is a Church or Temple that has only two services a week and tremendous useage during those brief hourly services . For example Duke Energy's demand charge is for the highest 15 minutes during the monthly billing cycle . I have always suggested to people who come to me for help with Solar that they are better off using multiple time clocks on the heating and cooling units etc . Since they cannot use a tax credit they need a White Knight investor for Solar OR a battery storage system to release power during the demand period obviously. An big battery system and Inverter or inverters . Any ideas . Gator Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 26 16:04:59 2017 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:04:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand Charges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, are you sure it isn’t the highest 15 minute period for the last rolling 12 month period? That’s how FPL is set up. It’s brutal for some industries that have infrequent high demand. On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Tom Lane wrote: > In Florida it is not unusable to have a $700 dollar demand charge AND only > a $165 electric useage charge . A classic example is a Church or Temple > that has only two services a week and tremendous useage during those brief > hourly services . For example Duke Energy's demand charge is for the > highest 15 minutes during the monthly billing cycle . I have always > suggested to people who come to me for help with Solar that they are better > off using multiple time clocks on the heating and cooling units etc . Since > they cannot use a tax credit they need a White Knight investor for Solar OR > a battery storage system to release power during the demand period > obviously. An big battery system and Inverter or inverters . Any ideas . > Gator Tom > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Jan 26 16:28:50 2017 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:28:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand Charges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it varies by Utility and rate schedule. On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Tom, are you sure it isn’t the highest 15 minute period for the last > rolling 12 month period? That’s how FPL is set up. It’s brutal for some > industries that have infrequent high demand. > > > > > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Tom Lane wrote: > >> In Florida it is not unusable to have a $700 dollar demand charge AND >> only a $165 electric useage charge . A classic example is a Church or >> Temple that has only two services a week and tremendous useage during those >> brief hourly services . For example Duke Energy's demand charge is for the >> highest 15 minutes during the monthly billing cycle . I have always >> suggested to people who come to me for help with Solar that they are better >> off using multiple time clocks on the heating and cooling units etc . Since >> they cannot use a tax credit they need a White Knight investor for Solar OR >> a battery storage system to release power during the demand period >> obviously. An big battery system and Inverter or inverters . Any ideas . >> Gator Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer [image: Inline image 3] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 16761 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Sat Jan 28 09:09:00 2017 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 14:09:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Demand Charges and Time of Day Charges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Tom Lane Date: Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 7:40 AM Subject: Demand Charges and Time of Day Charges To: The Demand charge I am familiar with is the Duke Energy's demand charge based on the highest 15 minutes recorded in the monthly cycle . I do not know about FP&L 'S I have heard that utilities in Florida are going to start using Demand Charges like this AND /OR Time of Day on residential customers ! .Also if a customer ( typically one who uses an instaneous electric water heater I.e. 11,000 watts ) blows the transformer THE CUSTOMER pays for the transformer upgrade in all cases by all utilities . FP&L , Duke , and the large utilies in Florida hate residential and commercial solar AND look ALSO for any way to gouge their customers . Any advice on how to overcome Demand Charges and time of day Charges CHEAPLY like the use of timers and or other strategies is important . Sizing adice on batteries and inverters also . Thanks . Gator Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Sat Jan 28 15:29:05 2017 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 12:29:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Demand Charges and Time of Day Charges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <599013.55627.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi gang. I don't really want to get into discussions about rates and charges at individual utilities because there are so many different ones represented by territories you all work in. Probably hundreds. So if we could keep the discussion to design and equipment strategies in this age of unreasonable charges, that will be helpful for the many. Tom Lane wrote at 06:09 AM 1/28/2017: >The Demand charge I am familiar with is the Duke Energy's demand charge based on the highest 15 minutes recorded in the monthly cycle . I do not know about FP&L 'S I have heard that utilities in Florida are going to start using Demand  Charges like this AND /OR Time of Day on residential customers ! .Also if a customer ( typically one who uses an instaneous electric water heater I.e. 11,000 watts ) blows the transformer THE CUSTOMER pays for the transformer upgrade in all cases by all utilities . FP&L , Duke , and the large utilies in Florida hate residential and commercial solar AND look ALSO  for any way to gouge their customers . Any advice on how to overcome Demand  Charges and time of day Charges CHEAPLY like the use of timers and or other strategies is important . Sizing adice on batteries and inverters also . Thanks . Gator Tom From rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com Sat Jan 28 16:06:31 2017 From: rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 14:06:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] net zero 'ready' home Message-ID: New politics ASIDE, is anyone else noticing that the DOE continues to really promote 'zero energy ready homes' but is apparently not ready to commit to net zero homes? I find myself persistently frustrated that DOE and builders (and therefore customers) are willing to settle for 'net zero ready' even when net zero is physically and financially feasible and beneficial. We live in a net positive home, including our EV, and it wasn't even that challenging to accomplish. Not sure why that story isn't being told as readily? Rebecca Lundberg Solar Home Builders Colorado, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Jan 30 12:25:21 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (markf at berkeleysolar.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 09:25:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down Box In In-Accessible Location vs SMA Multigate XT Message-ID: <43733.66.117.140.18.1485797121.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Folks, Clearly residential rapid shutdown boxes will generally be located on roofs and as such will be in inaccessible locations. I guess this works because the equipment is remotely operated. I have an SMA Multigate for use with my SMA microinverters. If I put just the Multigate in a box with no disconnecting means inside the box, can I then mount it in an in-accessible location? I have the Multigate XT which is a listed assebly which comes with a disconnecting means built into the box, so now I have to put it in an accessible location? What code reference tells use when different equipment needs to be in an accessible location? Mark From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Jan 30 12:54:24 2017 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 10:54:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down Box In In-Accessible Location vs SMA Multigate XT In-Reply-To: <43733.66.117.140.18.1485797121.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> References: <43733.66.117.140.18.1485797121.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: <52842922-D517-4AE3-AE52-C9B2EC068D5B@skyfireenergy.com> Mark, Not being familiar with NEC...are you still required to have rapid shutdown when using microinverters? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Jan 30, 2017, at 10:25 AM, markf at berkeleysolar.com wrote: > > Folks, > Clearly residential rapid shutdown boxes will generally be located on > roofs and as such will be in inaccessible locations. > > I guess this works because the equipment is remotely operated. > > I have an SMA Multigate for use with my SMA microinverters. If I put just > the Multigate in a box with no disconnecting means inside the box, can I > then mount it in an in-accessible location? > > I have the Multigate XT which is a listed assebly which comes with a > disconnecting means built into the box, so now I have to put it in an > accessible location? > > What code reference tells use when different equipment needs to be in an > accessible location? > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Jan 30 13:20:07 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (markf at berkeleysolar.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 10:20:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down Box In In-Accessible Location vs SMA Multigate XT In-Reply-To: <52842922-D517-4AE3-AE52-C9B2EC068D5B@skyfireenergy.com> References: <43733.66.117.140.18.1485797121.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <52842922-D517-4AE3-AE52-C9B2EC068D5B@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <57549.66.117.140.18.1485800407.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> No, it's not required with microinverters. > Mark, > Not being familiar with NEC...are you still required to have rapid > shutdown when using microinverters? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > >> On Jan 30, 2017, at 10:25 AM, markf at berkeleysolar.com wrote: >> >> Folks, >> Clearly residential rapid shutdown boxes will generally be located on >> roofs and as such will be in inaccessible locations. >> >> I guess this works because the equipment is remotely operated. >> >> I have an SMA Multigate for use with my SMA microinverters. If I put >> just >> the Multigate in a box with no disconnecting means inside the box, can I >> then mount it in an in-accessible location? >> >> I have the Multigate XT which is a listed assebly which comes with a >> disconnecting means built into the box, so now I have to put it in an >> accessible location? >> >> What code reference tells use when different equipment needs to be in an >> accessible location? >> >> Mark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Jan 30 13:23:37 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (markf at berkeleysolar.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 10:23:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) Message-ID: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Folks, NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as a requirement. Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"? Mark From august at luminalt.com Mon Jan 30 13:47:02 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 10:47:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) In-Reply-To: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> References: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4c5834148e2ccbe1250eaad6b298af6b@mail.gmail.com> Hi Mark, The current issue of IAEI magazine has an article writing by Bill Brooks called "Hot Topics for PV System Installations." In the article, he directly addresses 2014 NEC 690.47(D). Unfortunately I don't see this article posted online, but you might want to check it out if you can find it. My understanding is that the intent of 690.47(D) is to require an additional electrode when PV is installed on structures that don't already have and electrode system such as a separate building, garage, etc. August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:24 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) Folks, NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as a requirement. Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"? Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Jan 30 14:00:30 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (markf at berkeleysolar.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 11:00:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) In-Reply-To: <4c5834148e2ccbe1250eaad6b298af6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <4c5834148e2ccbe1250eaad6b298af6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42193.66.117.140.18.1485802830.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Thanks August, I have seen the IAEI article from May-June 2015. It seemed to try the line that if the exisitng electrode is within 6 feet of the building, then that same electrode is within 6 feet of the "Array". I guess my plan at this point is to not install the aux. electrode and use the IAEI article as my justification and see what the inspector is thinking. Mark > Hi Mark, > > The current issue of IAEI magazine has an article writing by Bill Brooks > called "Hot Topics for PV System Installations." In the article, he > directly addresses 2014 NEC 690.47(D). > > Unfortunately I don't see this article posted online, but you might want > to check it out if you can find it. > > My understanding is that the intent of 690.47(D) is to require an > additional electrode when PV is installed on structures that don't already > have and electrode system such as a separate building, garage, etc. > > August > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:24 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) > > Folks, > > NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a > residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as > a requirement. > > Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am > planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to > say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"? > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jan 30 14:00:52 2017 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 14:00:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) In-Reply-To: <4c5834148e2ccbe1250eaad6b298af6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <4c5834148e2ccbe1250eaad6b298af6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Further to August’s reply, here it is: http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2015/06/23/bonding-and-grounding-pv-systems/ ​Jason​ On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 1:47 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Mark, > > The current issue of IAEI magazine has an article writing by Bill Brooks > called "Hot Topics for PV System Installations." In the article, he > directly addresses 2014 NEC 690.47(D). > > Unfortunately I don't see this article posted online, but you might want > to check it out if you can find it. > > My understanding is that the intent of 690.47(D) is to require an > additional electrode when PV is installed on structures that don't already > have and electrode system such as a separate building, garage, etc. > > August > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:24 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) > > Folks, > > NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a > residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as > a requirement. > > Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am > planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to > say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"? > > Mark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jan 30 13:57:35 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 10:57:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) In-Reply-To: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> References: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: <13b5d0ce4a40eb38361b71323f9f0382@mail.gmail.com> Mark: For micro-inverter systems I have successfully argued the application of Exception No. 1. in that the load is the micro-inverter. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:24 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) Folks, NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as a requirement. Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"? Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jan 30 14:01:29 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 14:01:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) In-Reply-To: <4c5834148e2ccbe1250eaad6b298af6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <4c5834148e2ccbe1250eaad6b298af6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170130190137.D25121080A@che.dreamhost.com> FYI, this has changed to more of a permissive rule in the 2017 NEC, than the mandatory one in 2014. -----Original Message----- From: "August Goers" Sent: ‎1/‎30/‎2017 13:47 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) Hi Mark, The current issue of IAEI magazine has an article writing by Bill Brooks called "Hot Topics for PV System Installations." In the article, he directly addresses 2014 NEC 690.47(D). Unfortunately I don't see this article posted online, but you might want to check it out if you can find it. My understanding is that the intent of 690.47(D) is to require an additional electrode when PV is installed on structures that don't already have and electrode system such as a separate building, garage, etc. August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:24 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) Folks, NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as a requirement. Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"? Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jan 30 14:54:49 2017 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 14:54:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) In-Reply-To: <13b5d0ce4a40eb38361b71323f9f0382@mail.gmail.com> References: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <13b5d0ce4a40eb38361b71323f9f0382@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I don’t think that was the intention necessarily, but I have argued the same thing with varying degrees of success. Fortunately (?) we are still on 2011 here, but 2014 is coming and hopefully AHJs will remain permissive of no additional electrode if the home already has one within 6 feet of the service entrance (which it almost always does). Jason Szumlanski On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 1:57 PM, William Miller wrote: > Mark: > > For micro-inverter systems I have successfully argued the application of > Exception No. 1. in that the load is the micro-inverter. > > William > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:24 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) > > Folks, > > NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a > residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as > a requirement. > > Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am > planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to > say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"? > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Jan 30 15:40:03 2017 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 13:40:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote option for older inverter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone have a SW-RC (and 50' cable) for a Trace SW4024MC2 inverter? If you have one to part with, please contact me off list. Thanks Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Tue Jan 31 22:00:14 2017 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2017 22:00:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) In-Reply-To: References: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <13b5d0ce4a40eb38361b71323f9f0382@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c301d27c37$500efa10$f02cee30$@net> You may also want to cite the 2017 code which does not require the GEC for ungrounded inverters, or rather non transformer isolated inverters. From: Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 2:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) I don’t think that was the intention necessarily, but I have argued the same thing with varying degrees of success. Fortunately (?) we are still on 2011 here, but 2014 is coming and hopefully AHJs will remain permissive of no additional electrode if the home already has one within 6 feet of the service entrance (which it almost always does). Jason Szumlanski On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 1:57 PM, William Miller wrote: Mark: For micro-inverter systems I have successfully argued the application of Exception No. 1. in that the load is the micro-inverter. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:24 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) Folks, NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as a requirement. Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"? Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 09:18:21 2017 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 07:18:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) In-Reply-To: References: <40524.66.117.140.18.1485800617.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <4c5834148e2ccbe1250eaad6b298af6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark, Here in Colorado, we've been on the 2014 code for about 3 years. There have been various AHJ interpretations. Unfortunately for us, its kind of ended up that on all arrays, the inspectors expect a dedicated ground rod directly adjacent to the array. This includes arrays mounted on the same building as the service entrance equipment. I've had to beg to be able to run it down the north roof to keep it out of view. If it happens that the roof you are mounting to is right near the service entrance, you can use the existing ground rod. I think its a very strange requirement and no one quite understands why this makes these installations safer. Good luck On Jan 30, 2017 2:01 PM, "Jason Szumlanski" wrote: > Further to August’s reply, here it is: > > http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2015/06/23/bonding-and- > grounding-pv-systems/ > > ​Jason​ > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 1:47 PM, August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Mark, >> >> The current issue of IAEI magazine has an article writing by Bill Brooks >> called "Hot Topics for PV System Installations." In the article, he >> directly addresses 2014 NEC 690.47(D). >> >> Unfortunately I don't see this article posted online, but you might want >> to check it out if you can find it. >> >> My understanding is that the intent of 690.47(D) is to require an >> additional electrode when PV is installed on structures that don't already >> have and electrode system such as a separate building, garage, etc. >> >> August >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com >> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 10:24 AM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.47(D) >> >> Folks, >> >> NEC 2014 is in effect in California. I just pulled a permit for a >> residential system and it had a little stamp that had 690.47(D) circled as >> a requirement. >> >> Anyone worked with AHJ's in California who are now requiring this? I am >> planning to not install the electrode, siting Exception 2 and trying to >> say that the existing electrode next to the build is "next to the array"? >> >> Mark >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Feb 1 14:13:33 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 14:13:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearing Snow From Modules Message-ID: <20170201191338.84F051009D@che.dreamhost.com> Hi Wrenches, We have a lot of border line temperatures here that will not quit melt the snow off an array. We can lose production on a semi sunny, 28 degree day. During such a day, I was looking at my frost free water faucet and my array. Humm, I could easily hose the snow off. Is there a reason not to do that? Any ice or slush would not present a problem. Is there a danger to the modules from doing that? Maybe this would even work on a sunny day when the temperatures were colder? Could a module break? Anyone ever try this? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Feb 1 21:19:54 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 18:19:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearing Snow From Modules In-Reply-To: <20170201191338.84F051009D@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170201191338.84F051009D@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake, I am no expert, BUT, about a year ago I covered an older not-in-service PV with a foot of snow on a 25 degree day and then hooked up a hose to a hot water faucet. With a pistol grip sprayer I directed a solid stream of hot water at the PV. It only took a second for that hot water to reach the PV's glass, no doubt cold from the snow. I kept it there in one area for about 30 seconds, slowly widening the area of 'impact', much of the snow melting of course. Afterwards I carefully visually inspected the PV (it was an older Kyo) and could not find/see anything out of the ordinary, still tested to label specs (slight de-rating due to age) when placed in direct sun. Another note, several times I have sprayed cool tap water (around 45 degrees, F) on my in-service array on my shop to eliminate the snow. It's a 12:12 pitch but it still took a good 15 minutes to clear it off. The array is 22, 60 cell PVs. I have not any decrease in performance to date. Conclusion? None really, I can't imagine 'washing' snowy PVs off with cool water could do any harm. Whereas the hot water test, intuitively probably not smart. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 2/1/2017 11:13 AM, Drake wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a lot of border line temperatures here that will not quit melt > the snow off an array. We can lose production on a semi sunny, 28 > degree day. During such a day, I was looking at my frost free water > faucet and my array. Humm, I could easily hose the snow off. > > Is there a reason not to do that? Any ice or slush would not present a > problem. Is there a danger to the modules from doing that? > > Maybe this would even work on a sunny day when the temperatures were > colder? Could a module break? Anyone ever try this? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 22:38:40 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 17:38:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearing Snow From Modules In-Reply-To: <20170201191338.84F051009D@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170201191338.84F051009D@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake Thermal shock can be an issue with the glass or the cells moving faster or slower, we will only do module cleaning in the am to make sure it drys and the temps are close when applying the water. What will happen down the road is the biggest question. Look at suntec's they are fracturing all over and its not even a thermal shock&FCU&, On Feb 1, 2017 9:13 AM, "Drake" wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a lot of border line temperatures here that will not quit melt the > snow off an array. We can lose production on a semi sunny, 28 degree day. > During such a day, I was looking at my frost free water faucet and my > array. Humm, I could easily hose the snow off. > > Is there a reason not to do that? Any ice or slush would not present a > problem. Is there a danger to the modules from doing that? > > Maybe this would even work on a sunny day when the temperatures were > colder? Could a module break? Anyone ever try this? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <(740)%20448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 23:31:58 2017 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 20:31:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearing Snow From Modules In-Reply-To: References: <20170201191338.84F051009D@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake Thermal shock is not a good thing at all for modules and it is the way we verify test them for life cycling and bankability. Yes I saw someone on a hot day during a solar drag race hit the modules with a fire extinguisher to cool them down in the hot sun and they survived for the race. Unknown what damage to the longer term life of the module can be done with all those layers with very different thermal coefficients of expansion is hard to say. By the way they still lost to our team because we had a superior variable drive transmission! I am most concerned about tempered glass, especially since they are getting thinner and thinner these days. I have seen tempered glass break much easier then you would think, almost for looking wrong at it or a very small insignificant pressure in the wrong spot. Happens randomly every once in awhile on the module manufacturing floor. Of course modules are thermally cycled as part of their qualifications and also for Bankability, but you would never risk putting these modules into field service cause you just do not know how much damage was done...even if they still meet specifications. As long as you are washing modules with a water temperature that is close to the module temperature you should be OK. IMHO modules may be cheap put not cheap enough to risk thermal shock, so they should still be treated with the respect and care they deserve as a product meant to last 20 years at 80% output! If a module manufacturer knew you thermal shocked them washing them off I am sure that they would find a clause in their warranty to weasel out of it! Bill Hoffer On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 6:19 PM, frenergy wrote: > Drake, > > I am no expert, BUT, about a year ago I covered an older > not-in-service PV with a foot of snow on a 25 degree day and then hooked up > a hose to a hot water faucet. With a pistol grip sprayer I directed a > solid stream of hot water at the PV. It only took a second for that hot > water to reach the PV's glass, no doubt cold from the snow. I kept it > there in one area for about 30 seconds, slowly widening the area of > 'impact', much of the snow melting of course. > > Afterwards I carefully visually inspected the PV (it was an > older Kyo) and could not find/see anything out of the ordinary, still > tested to label specs (slight de-rating due to age) when placed in direct > sun. > > Another note, several times I have sprayed cool tap water > (around 45 degrees, F) on my in-service array on my shop to eliminate the > snow. It's a 12:12 pitch but it still took a good 15 minutes to clear it > off. The array is 22, 60 cell PVs. I have not any decrease in performance > to date. > > Conclusion? None really, I can't imagine 'washing' snowy PVs > off with cool water could do any harm. Whereas the hot water test, > intuitively probably not smart. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 <(530)%20284-7849> > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 2/1/2017 11:13 AM, Drake wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a lot of border line temperatures here that will not quit melt the > snow off an array. We can lose production on a semi sunny, 28 degree day. > During such a day, I was looking at my frost free water faucet and my > array. Humm, I could easily hose the snow off. > > Is there a reason not to do that? Any ice or slush would not present a > problem. Is there a danger to the modules from doing that? > > Maybe this would even work on a sunny day when the temperatures were > colder? Could a module break? Anyone ever try this? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <(740)%20448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- William Hoffer 420 SE Wyers Street P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Feb 4 11:15:14 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2017 11:15:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearing Snow From Modules In-Reply-To: < CAL4Seax0KCPBhaXcD6ijdcKPLk04u2DptmxuqsDB-bhS1bhuxA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ccc32077959f87a05185c35a2194e9001331c3b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Bill, The thermal shock is what I'm concerned about. On the other hand, snow covered modules can melt out with ice covering part of the module and hot sun on the exposed portions. What is the effect on the border between ice and illuminated module? There could easily be a 70 degree or greater temperature differential in a fraction of an inch. There must be  pretty good tolerance for thermal shock. It does appear that Bill Battagin has washed snow off modules without noticeable negative effect.  Due to your warning, I'm hesitant to do it. It would be good if some testing were done on this, as snow coverage is a major problem. Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 20:31:58 -0800 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearing Snow From Modules Drake Thermal shock is not a good thing at all for modules and it is the way we verify test them for life cycling and bankability.  Yes I saw someone on a hot day during a solar drag race hit the modules with a fire extinguisher to cool them down in the hot sun and they survived for the race.  Unknown what damage to the longer term life of the module can be done with all those layers with very different thermal coefficients of expansion is hard to say.  By the way they still lost to our team because we had a superior variable drive transmission!  I am most concerned about tempered glass, especially since they are getting thinner and thinner these days.  I have seen tempered glass break much easier then you would think, almost for looking wrong at it or a very small insignificant pressure in the wrong spot.  Happens randomly every once in awhile on the module manufacturing floor.  Of course modules are thermally cycled as part of their qualifications and also for Bankability, but you would never risk putting these modules into field service cause you just do not know how much damage was done...even if they still meet specifications.  As long as you are washing modules with a water temperature that is close to the module temperature you should be OK.  IMHO modules may be cheap put not cheap enough to risk thermal shock, so they should still be treated with the respect and care they deserve as a product meant to last 20 years at 80% output!  If a module manufacturer knew you thermal shocked them washing them off I am sure that they would find a clause in their warranty to weasel out of it! Bill Hoffer On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 6:19 PM, frenergy wrote: Drake,             I am no expert, BUT, about a year ago I covered an older not-in-service PV with a foot of snow on a 25 degree day and then hooked up a hose to a hot water faucet.  With a pistol grip sprayer I directed a solid stream of hot water at the PV.  It only took a second for that hot water to reach the PV's glass, no doubt cold from the snow.  I kept it there in one area for about 30 seconds, slowly widening the area of 'impact', much of the snow melting of course.             Afterwards I carefully visually inspected the PV (it was an older Kyo) and could not find/see anything out of the ordinary, still tested to label specs (slight de-rating due to age) when placed in direct sun.             Another note, several times I have sprayed cool tap water (around 45 degrees, F) on my in-service array on my shop to eliminate the snow.  It's a 12:12 pitch but it still took a good 15 minutes to clear it off. The array is 22, 60 cell PVs.  I have not any decrease in performance to date.             Conclusion?  None really, I can't imagine 'washing' snowy PVs off with cool water could do any harm.  Whereas the hot water test, intuitively probably not smart. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [2] On 2/1/2017 11:13 AM, Drake wrote: Hi Wrenches, We have a lot of border line temperatures here that will not quit melt the snow off an array. We can lose production on a semi sunny, 28 degree day. During such a day, I was looking at my frost free water faucet and my array. Humm, I could easily hose the snow off. Is there a reason not to do that? Any ice or slush would not present a problem. Is there a danger to the modules from doing that? Maybe this would even work on a sunny day when the temperatures were colder? Could a module break? Anyone ever try this? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ------------------------- [3] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] -- [10] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] -- William Hoffer 420 SE Wyers Street P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com [17] Links: ------ [1] mailto:frenergy at psln.com [2] http://www.frenergy.net [3] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient [4] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient [11] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:bhoffer at sunergyengineeringservices.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Sat Feb 4 11:36:51 2017 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 09:36:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearing Snow From Modules In-Reply-To: <5ccc32077959f87a05185c35a2194e9001331c3b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <5ccc32077959f87a05185c35a2194e9001331c3b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <90FA66A5-57D3-43A1-AC81-7500819315F8@skyfireenergy.com> Drake, Regarding snow cover being a "major problem", ...are you only referring to off-grid or also grid-tie systems? For off-grid, I'd agree, however, for grid-tied systems around here (Edmonton, Alberta) we've found that snow is not a great concern, when considering its effect on a systems annual production. Here is a link to a great ongoing project that is assessing the effects of module tilt and snow cover..... https://solaralberta.ca/content/alberta-solar-performance-data Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Feb 4, 2017, at 9:15 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Bill, > > The thermal shock is what I'm concerned about. On the other hand, snow covered modules can melt out with ice covering part of the module and hot sun on the exposed portions. > > What is the effect on the border between ice and illuminated module? There could easily be a 70 degree or greater temperature differential in a fraction of an inch. There must be pretty good tolerance for thermal shock. > > It does appear that Bill Battagin has washed snow off modules without noticeable negative effect. Due to your warning, I'm hesitant to do it. It would be good if some testing were done on this, as snow coverage is a major problem. > > Drake > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Wed, 1 Feb 2017 20:31:58 -0800 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearing Snow From Modules > > > Drake > > Thermal shock is not a good thing at all for modules and it is the way we verify test them for life cycling and bankability. Yes I saw someone on a hot day during a solar drag race hit the modules with a fire extinguisher to cool them down in the hot sun and they survived for the race. Unknown what damage to the longer term life of the module can be done with all those layers with very different thermal coefficients of expansion is hard to say. By the way they still lost to our team because we had a superior variable drive transmission! I am most concerned about tempered glass, especially since they are getting thinner and thinner these days. I have seen tempered glass break much easier then you would think, almost for looking wrong at it or a very small insignificant pressure in the wrong spot. Happens randomly every once in awhile on the module manufacturing floor. Of course modules are thermally cycled as part of their qualifications and also for Bankability, but you would never risk putting these modules into field service cause you just do not know how much damage was done...even if they still meet specifications. As long as you are washing modules with a water temperature that is close to the module temperature you should be OK. IMHO modules may be cheap put not cheap enough to risk thermal shock, so they should still be treated with the respect and care they deserve as a product meant to last 20 years at 80% output! If a module manufacturer knew you thermal shocked them washing them off I am sure that they would find a clause in their warranty to weasel out of it! > > Bill Hoffer > >> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 6:19 PM, frenergy wrote: >> Drake, >> >> I am no expert, BUT, about a year ago I covered an older not-in-service PV with a foot of snow on a 25 degree day and then hooked up a hose to a hot water faucet. With a pistol grip sprayer I directed a solid stream of hot water at the PV. It only took a second for that hot water to reach the PV's glass, no doubt cold from the snow. I kept it there in one area for about 30 seconds, slowly widening the area of 'impact', much of the snow melting of course. >> >> Afterwards I carefully visually inspected the PV (it was an older Kyo) and could not find/see anything out of the ordinary, still tested to label specs (slight de-rating due to age) when placed in direct sun. >> >> Another note, several times I have sprayed cool tap water (around 45 degrees, F) on my in-service array on my shop to eliminate the snow. It's a 12:12 pitch but it still took a good 15 minutes to clear it off. The array is 22, 60 cell PVs. I have not any decrease in performance to date. >> >> Conclusion? None really, I can't imagine 'washing' snowy PVs off with cool water could do any harm. Whereas the hot water test, intuitively probably not smart. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> On 2/1/2017 11:13 AM, Drake wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We have a lot of border line temperatures here that will not quit melt the snow off an array. We can lose production on a semi sunny, 28 degree day. During such a day, I was looking at my frost free water faucet and my array. Humm, I could easily hose the snow off. >> >> Is there a reason not to do that? Any ice or slush would not present a problem. Is there a danger to the modules from doing that? >> >> Maybe this would even work on a sunny day when the temperatures were colder? Could a module break? Anyone ever try this? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > -- > William Hoffer > 420 SE Wyers Street > P.O. Box 1823 > White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 > sunengser at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 06:54:32 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 14:54:32 +0300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FR gear toxicity Message-ID: <3C360DB6-4FB1-4241-A479-B99DB1764E9B@gmail.com> HI All, I am wondering if anyone has any information or knows of studies etc that discuss any toxic nature of FR cotton clothing.? Thanks in advance, jay From reellison at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 18:47:14 2017 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 18:47:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FR gear toxicity In-Reply-To: <3C360DB6-4FB1-4241-A479-B99DB1764E9B@gmail.com> References: <3C360DB6-4FB1-4241-A479-B99DB1764E9B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F59A587-8E7A-4908-9997-99F13F4CC30F@gmail.com> Am I safe in assuming that FR is fire resistant ? Bob > On Feb 4, 2017, at 6:54 AM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I am wondering if anyone has any information or knows of studies etc that discuss any toxic nature of FR cotton clothing.? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > jay > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Dana at solarwork.com Sat Feb 4 19:23:13 2017 From: Dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 17:23:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FR gear toxicity In-Reply-To: <4F59A587-8E7A-4908-9997-99F13F4CC30F@gmail.com> References: <3C360DB6-4FB1-4241-A479-B99DB1764E9B@gmail.com> <4F59A587-8E7A-4908-9997-99F13F4CC30F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002401d27f46$0a2f8390$1e8e8ab0$@com> It is at the polar opposite end of the scale from Organic. I have worn quite a bit in fire training and the smell alone is a strong indicator. I wear a long sleeved separating layer no matter what the day time temps are to separate me from that material. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc C : 208.721.7003 : NABCEP # 051112-136 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 : Idaho PV # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of RE Ellison Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2017 4:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FR gear toxicity Am I safe in assuming that FR is fire resistant ? Bob > On Feb 4, 2017, at 6:54 AM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I am wondering if anyone has any information or knows of studies etc that discuss any toxic nature of FR cotton clothing.? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > jay > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 02:01:12 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 10:01:12 +0300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire rated (FR) gear toxicity? In-Reply-To: <002401d27f46$0a2f8390$1e8e8ab0$@com> References: <3C360DB6-4FB1-4241-A479-B99DB1764E9B@gmail.com> <4F59A587-8E7A-4908-9997-99F13F4CC30F@gmail.com> <002401d27f46$0a2f8390$1e8e8ab0$@com> Message-ID: <34346007-8FB3-4FAC-9647-63770A76B946@gmail.com> HI Dana, Yes I agree. I suppose my I started questioning this when I was just working at a US embassy on a array and everyone in the worker sections were wearing FR gear. Which would be 5 days a week all year, regardless of what they are doing which is very rarely doing any actual work on live circuits if they even work on any of the electrical parts of the embassy. And my questions were: does the FR rating/coating wear out? I would think it does. And is it harmful to wear it all the time? Which I think it is. Which is why I”m asking to see if anyone has actual data or seen reports etc on this. I should have been more specific and clear on my original email. jay > On Feb 5, 2017, at 3:23 AM, Dana wrote: > > It is at the polar opposite end of the scale from Organic. I have worn quite a bit in fire training and the smell alone is a strong indicator. I wear a long sleeved separating layer no matter what the day time temps are to separate me from that material. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc > C : 208.721.7003 : NABCEP # 051112-136 > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 : Idaho PV # 028374 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > From Dana at solarwork.com Sun Feb 5 10:32:39 2017 From: Dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 08:32:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire rated (FR) gear toxicity? In-Reply-To: <34346007-8FB3-4FAC-9647-63770A76B946@gmail.com> References: <3C360DB6-4FB1-4241-A479-B99DB1764E9B@gmail.com> <4F59A587-8E7A-4908-9997-99F13F4CC30F@gmail.com> <002401d27f46$0a2f8390$1e8e8ab0$@com> <34346007-8FB3-4FAC-9647-63770A76B946@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002801d27fc5$1631e820$4295b860$@com> My first welding shirt {FR coated} definitely got less retardant and burn holes started to happen over time & I switched to a god awful hot leather shirt, not that I washed it to death. I think the answer to is it harmful? This depends on your personal take what is carcinogenetic & what do you consider safe in this world. My 0.02 is the FR coatings are to be used minimally, judiciously as needed & don't hang around or sleep in them. They have a purpose and are a requirement in the event of a mishap but I my take is that the FR coatings are truly nasty. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc C : 208.721.7003 : NABCEP # 051112-136 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 : Idaho PV # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 12:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire rated (FR) gear toxicity? HI Dana, Yes I agree. I suppose my I started questioning this when I was just working at a US embassy on a array and everyone in the worker sections were wearing FR gear. Which would be 5 days a week all year, regardless of what they are doing which is very rarely doing any actual work on live circuits if they even work on any of the electrical parts of the embassy. And my questions were: does the FR rating/coating wear out? I would think it does. And is it harmful to wear it all the time? Which I think it is. Which is why I”m asking to see if anyone has actual data or seen reports etc on this. I should have been more specific and clear on my original email. jay > On Feb 5, 2017, at 3:23 AM, Dana wrote: > > It is at the polar opposite end of the scale from Organic. I have worn quite a bit in fire training and the smell alone is a strong indicator. I wear a long sleeved separating layer no matter what the day time temps are to separate me from that material. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc > C : 208.721.7003 : NABCEP # 051112-136 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 : > Idaho PV # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sun Feb 5 15:27:23 2017 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 15:27:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire rated (FR) gear toxicity? In-Reply-To: <002801d27fc5$1631e820$4295b860$@com> References: <3C360DB6-4FB1-4241-A479-B99DB1764E9B@gmail.com> <4F59A587-8E7A-4908-9997-99F13F4CC30F@gmail.com> <002401d27f46$0a2f8390$1e8e8ab0$@com> <34346007-8FB3-4FAC-9647-63770A76B946@gmail.com> <002801d27fc5$1631e820$4295b860$@com> Message-ID: After 8 years as aircrew in the Marine Corps, we wore FR flight suits daily. While there are those that might say I'm a little off :) no medical issues nor I'm I on any meds. Only time will tell. Christopher Schaefer On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Dana wrote: > My first welding shirt {FR coated} definitely got less retardant and burn > holes started to happen over time & I switched to a god awful hot leather > shirt, not that I washed it to death. > I think the answer to is it harmful? This depends on your personal take > what is carcinogenetic & what do you consider safe in this world. My 0.02 > is the FR coatings are to be used minimally, judiciously as needed & don't > hang around or sleep in them. They have a purpose and are a requirement in > the event of a mishap but I my take is that the FR coatings are truly nasty. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc > C : 208.721.7003 : NABCEP # 051112-136 > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 : Idaho PV # 028374 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of jay > Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 12:01 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire rated (FR) gear toxicity? > > HI Dana, > > Yes I agree. > I suppose my I started questioning this when I was just working at a US > embassy on a array and everyone in the worker sections were wearing FR > gear. Which would be 5 days a week all year, regardless of what they are > doing which is very rarely doing any actual work on live circuits if they > even work on any of the electrical parts of the embassy. > > And my questions were: does the FR rating/coating wear out? I would > think it does. And is it harmful to wear it all the time? Which I think > it is. > > Which is why I”m asking to see if anyone has actual data or seen reports > etc on this. > > I should have been more specific and clear on my original email. > > jay > > > > On Feb 5, 2017, at 3:23 AM, Dana wrote: > > > > It is at the polar opposite end of the scale from Organic. I have worn > quite a bit in fire training and the smell alone is a strong indicator. I > wear a long sleeved separating layer no matter what the day time temps are > to separate me from that material. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc > > C : 208.721.7003 : NABCEP # 051112-136 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 : > > Idaho PV # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 16:00:28 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 14:00:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire rated (FR) gear toxicity? In-Reply-To: References: <3C360DB6-4FB1-4241-A479-B99DB1764E9B@gmail.com> <4F59A587-8E7A-4908-9997-99F13F4CC30F@gmail.com> <002401d27f46$0a2f8390$1e8e8ab0$@com> <34346007-8FB3-4FAC-9647-63770A76B946@gmail.com> <002801d27fc5$1631e820$4295b860$@com> Message-ID: We could get into the weeds with "integral" and "treated" FR clothing. And laundering regimes of such. Kid's PJs are either or, by law. I just wear other clothing underneath it, The worst is Nomex firefighter gear, the yellow shirts. Just don't let it touch your skin. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > After 8 years as aircrew in the Marine Corps, we wore FR flight suits > daily. While there are those that might say I'm a little off :) no medical > issues nor I'm I on any meds. Only time will tell. > > Christopher Schaefer > > On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Dana wrote: > >> My first welding shirt {FR coated} definitely got less retardant and burn >> holes started to happen over time & I switched to a god awful hot leather >> shirt, not that I washed it to death. >> I think the answer to is it harmful? This depends on your personal take >> what is carcinogenetic & what do you consider safe in this world. My 0.02 >> is the FR coatings are to be used minimally, judiciously as needed & don't >> hang around or sleep in them. They have a purpose and are a requirement in >> the event of a mishap but I my take is that the FR coatings are truly nasty. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc >> C : 208.721.7003 : NABCEP # 051112-136 >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 : Idaho PV # 028374 >> E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of jay >> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 12:01 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire rated (FR) gear toxicity? >> >> HI Dana, >> >> Yes I agree. >> I suppose my I started questioning this when I was just working at a US >> embassy on a array and everyone in the worker sections were wearing FR >> gear. Which would be 5 days a week all year, regardless of what they are >> doing which is very rarely doing any actual work on live circuits if they >> even work on any of the electrical parts of the embassy. >> >> And my questions were: does the FR rating/coating wear out? I would >> think it does. And is it harmful to wear it all the time? Which I think >> it is. >> >> Which is why I”m asking to see if anyone has actual data or seen reports >> etc on this. >> >> I should have been more specific and clear on my original email. >> >> jay >> >> >> > On Feb 5, 2017, at 3:23 AM, Dana wrote: >> > >> > It is at the polar opposite end of the scale from Organic. I have worn >> quite a bit in fire training and the smell alone is a strong indicator. I >> wear a long sleeved separating layer no matter what the day time temps are >> to separate me from that material. >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > ------ >> > Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc >> > C : 208.721.7003 : NABCEP # 051112-136 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 : >> > Idaho PV # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz >> > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <(585)%20229-2083> or Cell 585-748-1870 > <(585)%20748-1870> * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Wed Feb 8 14:10:25 2017 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 09:10:25 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Washer - Old Inverter Message-ID: Aloha All, I have a client with a old Trace 4024 on a APT center. Everything has worked great for over 20 years. He purchased a new washing machine from Sears that does not want to work. The voltage at the outlet is 117 vac and the Sears guy says that is the issue. When the system is running on the genset (Northern Light 6kW Diesel) we get 121 vac and the washer runs fine. That seems like a very tight voltage window and a issue with the washer not the system. I have seen sensitive electronics go wacky with no N-G bound maybe that is the issue? I did not install the system so I would have go poke around. Any one out there have any ideas? Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 440 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Feb 8 15:07:57 2017 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 12:07:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Washer - Old Inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The old SW's used to be called "sinewave" but they weren't really full sinewave outputs. The outputs had steps or "shorts' in them and the amount of steps depended on what the battery voltage on the input was. Generally these steps ranged between 32 and 60 steps, if I remember correctly... the steps are what caused nightmares with some, but not many appliances in the mid 90's... Today, with the appliances getting more and more sensitive, this issue comes up more often. This often leads the customer into having to buy a new inverter that has a cleaner waveform... Most of the "Pure Sinewave" inverter out there run in the 350-400 steps these days, that means the shorting time constants are much shorter, and doesn't affect the appliances like they did in the past... With that being said, still to this day some appliances are also affected by even the newer inverters. So never promise that these newer inverters will work with everything.. On Feb 8, 2017 2:11 PM, "Lou Russo" wrote: > Aloha All, > > I have a client with a old Trace 4024 on a APT center. Everything has > worked great for over 20 years. He purchased a new washing machine from > Sears that does not want to work. The voltage at the outlet is 117 vac and > the Sears guy says that is the issue. When the system is running on the > genset (Northern Light 6kW Diesel) we get 121 vac and the washer runs fine. > That seems like a very tight voltage window and a issue with the washer not > the system. I have seen sensitive electronics go wacky with no N-G bound > maybe that is the issue? I did not install the system so I would have go > poke around. Any one out there have any ideas? > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 <(440)%20345-6762> > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Feb 8 15:18:52 2017 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 13:18:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Washer - Old Inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lou, This was a not-uncommon issue that would occasionally arise with specific washers and the SW series. It often came up with Y2K installations. It has nothing to do with voltage /per se/, and the inverter is working as it should. The SW is true modified-sinewave (with something like 28-42 waveform steps per half-wave). The problem is that the electronic controls in the washer aren't compatible with the waveform. In short, three options: 1- Sometimes a large electrolytic capacitor across the inverter ac output terminals will work. I have seen it work but not always. 2- Try a different brand of washer. 3. Upgrade the inverter to a sinewave unit. Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar On 2/8/2017 12:10 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha All, > > I have a client with a old Trace 4024 on a APT center. Everything has > worked great for over 20 years. He purchased a new washing machine > from Sears that does not want to work. The voltage at the outlet is > 117 vac and the Sears guy says that is the issue. When the system is > running on the genset (Northern Light 6kW Diesel) we get 121 vac and > the washer runs fine. That seems like a very tight voltage window and > a issue with the washer not the system. I have seen sensitive > electronics go wacky with no N-G bound maybe that is the issue? I did > not install the system so I would have go poke around. Any one out > there have any ideas? > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Feb 8 15:36:33 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 13:36:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Washer - Old Inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56a53728-8186-3236-5bc4-2408e44b172c@solarray.com> 117 vac is perfect output. If the washing machine is having issues, it would be with the stepped waveform, not the voltage. The old Trace had a pretty choppy "pure sine wave". I had washers not run on the Trace SWs, and we were able to put a capacitor on the inverter output that fixed the problem. Do a search of the RE archives though, because several others mentioned that the cap idea has potentially dangerous issues. The Magnum 4024 is a good replacement, I put one in and kept the old APT power center on a system last year. R.Ray Walters CTO, RemoteSolar.com Former Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 2004-2016 Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/8/2017 12:10 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha All, > > I have a client with a old Trace 4024 on a APT center. Everything has > worked great for over 20 years. He purchased a new washing machine > from Sears that does not want to work. The voltage at the outlet is > 117 vac and the Sears guy says that is the issue. When the system is > running on the genset (Northern Light 6kW Diesel) we get 121 vac and > the washer runs fine. That seems like a very tight voltage window and > a issue with the washer not the system. I have seen sensitive > electronics go wacky with no N-G bound maybe that is the issue? I did > not install the system so I would have go poke around. Any one out > there have any ideas? > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed Feb 8 17:46:53 2017 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 14:46:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deck Flashing Message-ID: <682313.15456.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Feb 8 18:09:05 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 15:09:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deck Flashing In-Reply-To: <682313.15456.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <682313.15456.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2a488749aa8b2abfa5538e734a701f6d@mail.gmail.com> I don’t know if this will meet your goals, but we’ve been using Sunmodo’s deck mount with good results: *K10068-020 EZ Roof Mount Kit w/ L-Foot, Clear, Decking* http://sunmodo.com/product/ez-roof-mount-kit-w-l-foot/ -August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael Welch *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2017 2:47 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Deck Flashing Hi gang. Andrew's mail server is having troubles connecting to ours, so I am posting this on his behalf. Hi Folks, Can anyone suggest some kind of a deck flashing that can be used for mounting on a comp. roof without going into the rafters? How about plastic flashing. We install a butch of Heliocol solar pool heating panels and are trying to figure out a way to inexpensively flash the gazillion of holes we put in folks roofs installing these systems.. including our two hole pipe clamps to secure the plumbing run to the roof. The lower the profile the better. I appreciate your time and input, *Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICESince 1987, helping you and your Portland neighborsmove towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 19:38:36 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 14:38:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deck Flashing In-Reply-To: <682313.15456.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <682313.15456.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Andrew Look at Sunmodo flashing, it works well on plywood decks Jerry On Feb 8, 2017 12:47 PM, "Michael Welch" wrote: > Hi gang. Andrew's mail server is having troubles connecting to ours, so I > am posting this on his behalf. > > Hi Folks, > > Can anyone suggest some kind of a deck flashing that can be used for > mounting on a comp. roof without going into the rafters? How about plastic > flashing. We install a butch of Heliocol solar pool heating panels and > are trying to figure out a way to inexpensively flash the gazillion of > holes we put in folks roofs installing these systems.. including our two > hole pipe clamps to secure the plumbing run to the roof. The lower the > profile the better. > > I appreciate your time and input, > > > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > > *The BRIGHT CHOICE *Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > 503-238-4502 <(503)%20238-4502> > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Thu Feb 9 02:29:50 2017 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2017 01:29:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Washer - Old Inverter Message-ID: Lou, You are getting great advice from the list. Yesterday's sinewave inverter is not today's sinewave inverter. The washers are improved, too, likely using an ECM motor today. If the washer is the only holdout, have you considered a dedicated high quality, high surge, 1800 watt inverter for just the washer? Food for thought, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 -----------------------------------------From: "Lou Russo" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: 08-Feb-2017 19:10:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Washer - Old Inverter Aloha All, I have a client with a old Trace 4024 on a APT center. Everything has worked great for over 20 years. He purchased a new washing machine from Sears that does not want to work. The voltage at the outlet is 117 vac and the Sears guy says that is the issue. When the system is running on the genset (Northern Light 6kW Diesel) we get 121 vac and the washer runs fine. That seems like a very tight voltage window and a issue with the washer not the system. I have seen sensitive electronics go wacky with no N-G bound maybe that is the issue? I did not install the system so I would have go poke around. Any one out there have any ideas? Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com [1] 440 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 Links: ------ [1] mailto:lou at spreesolarsystems.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Feb 9 08:00:15 2017 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:00:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deck Flashing In-Reply-To: <682313.15456.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <682313.15456.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've successfully used Ecofastens ECO-65. Just keep in mind when you're attaching to decking the weak point becomes the attachment of the decking to the rafters. I've seen several roofs where they missed every nail when trying to nail the decking down. http://www.ecofastensolar.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=4#.WJxnklUrJQI On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Michael Welch wrote: > Hi gang. Andrew's mail server is having troubles connecting to ours, so I > am posting this on his behalf. > > Hi Folks, > > Can anyone suggest some kind of a deck flashing that can be used for > mounting on a comp. roof without going into the rafters? How about plastic > flashing. We install a butch of Heliocol solar pool heating panels and > are trying to figure out a way to inexpensively flash the gazillion of > holes we put in folks roofs installing these systems.. including our two > hole pipe clamps to secure the plumbing run to the roof. The lower the > profile the better. > > I appreciate your time and input, > > > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > > *The BRIGHT CHOICE *Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > 503-238-4502 <(503)%20238-4502> > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer [image: Inline image 3] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 16761 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Feb 9 15:15:43 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 15:15:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Washer - Old Inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06AFAFF9-0414-4432-BB08-462AF6956937@swnl.net> Try it with out a GFI outlet. > On Feb 8, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Aloha All, > > I have a client with a old Trace 4024 on a APT center. Everything has worked great for over 20 years. He purchased a new washing machine from Sears that does not want to work. The voltage at the outlet is 117 vac and the Sears guy says that is the issue. When the system is running on the genset (Northern Light 6kW Diesel) we get 121 vac and the washer runs fine. That seems like a very tight voltage window and a issue with the washer not the system. I have seen sensitive electronics go wacky with no N-G bound maybe that is the issue? I did not install the system so I would have go poke around. Any one out there have any ideas? > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 10:39:45 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 18:39:45 +0300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Washer - Old Inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9AD58424-8C22-4981-8C45-360AE2522194@gmail.com> HI Bill, I would kindly disagree with the need for a high surge 1800 watt inverter. If this washer is anything like the ones I own or have tested, these washers have no surge. I own a new LG ( branded sears) front load, works on my Outback VFX, but in measuring it, there is no surge at all. Max watts around 300. Yours might be different however. jay peltz power > On Feb 9, 2017, at 10:29 AM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: > > Lou, > You are getting great advice from the list. Yesterday's sinewave inverter is not today's sinewave inverter. The washers are improved, too, likely using an ECM motor today. > If the washer is the only holdout, have you considered a dedicated high quality, high surge, 1800 watt inverter for just the washer? > Food for thought, > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > ----------------------------------------- > > From: "Lou Russo" > To: "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > Sent: 08-Feb-2017 19:10:59 +0000 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Washer - Old Inverter > > Aloha All, > > I have a client with a old Trace 4024 on a APT center. Everything has worked great for over 20 years. He purchased a new washing machine from Sears that does not want to work. The voltage at the outlet is 117 vac and the Sears guy says that is the issue. When the system is running on the genset (Northern Light 6kW Diesel) we get 121 vac and the washer runs fine. That seems like a very tight voltage window and a issue with the washer not the system. I have seen sensitive electronics go wacky with no N-G bound maybe that is the issue? I did not install the system so I would have go poke around. Any one out there have any ideas? > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 9 11:49:10 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:49:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deck Flashing In-Reply-To: References: <682313.15456.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Friends: Ditto what Will says, and to add to the discussion, the fasteners for the foot product need to be plentiful enough and properly rated. For a while DPW’s EZ foot was using a fastener not properly rated. I think they were working on that and their product may be viable. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Will White *Sent:* Thursday, February 09, 2017 5:00 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Deck Flashing I've successfully used Ecofastens ECO-65. Just keep in mind when you're attaching to decking the weak point becomes the attachment of the decking to the rafters. I've seen several roofs where they missed every nail when trying to nail the decking down. http://www.ecofastensolar.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=4#.WJxnklUrJQI On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Michael Welch wrote: Hi gang. Andrew's mail server is having troubles connecting to ours, so I am posting this on his behalf. Hi Folks, Can anyone suggest some kind of a deck flashing that can be used for mounting on a comp. roof without going into the rafters? How about plastic flashing. We install a butch of Heliocol solar pool heating panels and are trying to figure out a way to inexpensively flash the gazillion of holes we put in folks roofs installing these systems.. including our two hole pipe clamps to secure the plumbing run to the roof. The lower the profile the better. I appreciate your time and input, *Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresident*Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. *The BRIGHT CHOICE*Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 <(503)%20238-4502> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer [image: Inline image 3] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 25429 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Feb 11 13:41:41 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 10:41:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 In California - 690.47(D) Message-ID: <98b1fa95-4575-231e-2aef-457c78c61260@berkeleysolar.com> A follow up on my most recent inspection. I was worried about the AHJ requiring the extra ground rod just below the array. I didn't install the ground rod ahead of the the inspection and expected to argue against it, trying for Exception2. I got signed off without having to install it. Basically, the AHJ said that he was so overwhelmed by all the new requirements in 2014 that he was really not ready to enforce all of them, especially 690.47(D) which seemed to make no sense to him. Well, that was way experience. I imagine that there must be some tension between the plan checker (who went out of his way to site and circle a call out to 690.47(D) on my plan set) and the inspectors who signed the permit card. Mark From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Feb 11 13:51:47 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 13:51:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS Batteries Message-ID: <20170211185158.CE2341021F@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, A friend just purchased 4 ESS MA 1428K batteries from AEP surplus. He got them really cheap. They are rated at 26.5 KWh with an operating voltage of 453 to 706 VDC! He would like to find a way to use the power from these batteries. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Feb 11 14:17:36 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 14:17:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS Batteries In-Reply-To: <20170211185158.CE2341021F@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170211185158.CE2341021F@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20170211191818.E2373102D2@che.dreamhost.com> Sounds like input values close to a string inverter. I'd try an old SMA or similar. -----Original Message----- From: "Drake" Sent: ‎2/‎11/‎2017 13:51 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS Batteries Hello Wrenches, A friend just purchased 4 ESS MA 1428K batteries from AEP surplus. He got them really cheap. They are rated at 26.5 KWh with an operating voltage of 453 to 706 VDC! He would like to find a way to use the power from these batteries. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Sun Feb 12 01:50:13 2017 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 01:50:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS Batteries Message-ID: Greetings Drake, The answer likely varies widely depending on what he would like to use these battery systems for. The gear and design used to play with these batteries can get rather sophisticated quickly. A high voltage DC-DC Converter may be needed. Bidirectional units exist and can potentially provide the coupling between the energy storage system(s) and the DC-AC Inverters we are already familiar with. A recent microgrid project I was servicing included a Siemens Sinamics DCP unit to incorporate the needed bidirectional buck-boost capabilities. Attached is a PDF spec sheet for this gear to get a sense of what these components are capable of. It may be a good idea to see if any information or documentation can be found for the battery systems and if any details about the function they previously served can be tracked down. It may be helpful to learn how they were used and with what other associated gear etc. This surplus purchase sounds like the makings of a fun project with endless possibilities! Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com ------ Original Message Below ------ Drake drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Feb 11 10:51:47 PST 2017 Hello Wrenches, A friend just purchased 4 ESS MA 1428K batteries from AEP surplus. He got them really cheap. They are rated at 26.5 KWh with an operating voltage of 453 to 706 VDC! He would like to find a way to use the power from these batteries. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: siemens-sinamics-dcp-en-E20001-A140-P520-V3-7600.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 506267 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sun Feb 12 13:12:13 2017 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:12:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FXR , Mate 3, AGS and Must Run Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I have steered clear of the Mate 3 for as long as possible, I have burned through my stash of FXs and now have been installing the FXRs and using the Mate 3. I typically utilize AGS for my clients in a 2 - wire start with a Diesel Genset setup. On 2 recently installed systems, one a FP2 and the other a FP1, the clients require "Must Run" to function. Of course it does not work. I can get it to work if I set the time for a few minutes later, but not for the next day. I have not used this feature ever in the past but since it is in the manual I wrongly assumed it would work. I am running firmware version 3.015 on both Mates. Tech support just wants me to do a factory reset and reprogram. That did not work. Anybody else having issues getting this feature to work? On a related note, software problems are becoming a systemics issue in our industry. Being recently burned by Schneider because of a software issue (to the point of breaking an appliance), now this, and endless other little bugs from almost every manufacturer my frustration level with software in the off-grid world is at a all time high. Given the importance of supplying power I firmly believe our manufactures can not and should not take the same approach to software as Silicon Valley does. "Fail early and often" may work for Facebook, Google and Uber but it has no place in our industry. Keep it simple and fight the urge to engage in feature creep. PLEASE. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 440 345 6762 <(440)%20345-6762> Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Feb 12 15:29:28 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 13:29:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FXR , Mate 3, AGS and Must Run In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0281e668-974e-95d1-28eb-3daa528543df@solarray.com> I agree, software and firmware issues are becoming my #1 call back issue. Off grid, this is totally unacceptable. I'm not using either company you mentioned for off grid systems at this time because of reliability issues. I've had decent luck with Magnum, and find their control system easier for customers to navigate. Some of this becomes our design responsibility, too. I generally avoid auto start in the first place, and prefer customers that take an active role in the system operation. A SOC meter with a remote start switch next to it, operated by a competent human is going to be much more effective than any auto start setup. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 2/12/17 11:12 AM, Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > I have steered clear of the Mate 3 for as long as possible, I have > burned through my stash of FXs and now have been installing the FXRs > and using the Mate 3. I typically utilize AGS for my clients in a 2 - > wire start with a Diesel Genset setup. On 2 recently installed > systems, one a FP2 and the other a FP1, the clients require "Must Run" > to function. Of course it does not work. I can get it to work if I set > the time for a few minutes later, but not for the next day. I have not > used this feature ever in the past but since it is in the manual I > wrongly assumed it would work. I am running firmware version 3.015 on > both Mates. Tech support just wants me to do a factory reset and > reprogram. That did not work. > > Anybody else having issues getting this feature to work? > > On a related note, software problems are becoming a systemics issue in > our industry. Being recently burned by Schneider because of a software > issue (to the point of breaking an appliance), now this, and endless > other little bugs from almost every manufacturer my frustration level > with software in the off-grid world is at a all time high. Given the > importance of supplying power I firmly believe our manufactures can > not and should not take the same approach to software as Silicon > Valley does. "Fail early and often" may work for Facebook, Google and > Uber but it has no place in our industry. Keep it simple and fight the > urge to engage in feature creep. PLEASE. > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Feb 13 10:15:05 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 10:15:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170213151509.A8557103F5@che.dreamhost.com> Thank you Glen and Matt for your ideas. I've forwarded your messages to my friend. The concept of using a grid tie inverter sounds hopeful. The question is, "how would we limit the amperage." It does look like the DC-DC converters might be pricey. I guess I will find out! Cheers, Drake At 01:50 AM 2/12/2017, you wrote: >Greetings Drake, > >The answer likely varies widely depending on what he would like to use >these battery systems for. The gear and design used to play with >these batteries can get rather sophisticated quickly. A high voltage >DC-DC Converter may be needed. Bidirectional units exist and can >potentially provide the coupling between the energy storage system(s) >and the DC-AC Inverters we are already familiar with. A recent >microgrid project I was servicing included a Siemens Sinamics DCP unit >to incorporate the needed bidirectional buck-boost capabilities. >Attached is a PDF spec sheet for this gear to get a sense of what >these components are capable of. > >It may be a good idea to see if any information or documentation can >be found for the battery systems and if any details about the function >they previously served can be tracked down. It may be helpful to >learn how they were used and with what other associated gear etc. > >This surplus purchase sounds like the makings of a fun project with >endless possibilities! > >Best regards, > >----MATT > >Matthew Sirum >P.O. Box 1227 >Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA >phone: +1.413.773.0611 >email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com > > >------ Original Message Below ------ > >Drake drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >Sat Feb 11 10:51:47 PST 2017 > >Hello Wrenches, > >A friend just purchased 4 ESS MA 1428K batteries from AEP surplus. He >got them really cheap. They are rated at 26.5 KWh with an operating >voltage of 453 to 706 VDC! > >He would like to find a way to use the power from these batteries. >Does anyone have any suggestions? > >Thanks, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >Content-Type: application/pdf; > name="siemens-sinamics-dcp-en-E20001-A140-P520-V3-7600.pdf" >Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="siemens-sinamics-dcp-en-E20001-A140-P520-V3-7600.pdf" >X-Attachment-Id: file0 > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 06:00:13 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 13:00:13 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FXR , Mate 3, AGS and Must Run In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96B720EC-9549-4F10-8021-C5818181484F@gmail.com> Hi Lou, I”ve had a few customers doing this exact operation with no issues. It has been very consistent. jay peltz power > On Feb 12, 2017, at 8:12 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > > I have steered clear of the Mate 3 for as long as possible, I have burned through my stash of FXs and now have been installing the FXRs and using the Mate 3. I typically utilize AGS for my clients in a 2 - wire start with a Diesel Genset setup. On 2 recently installed systems, one a FP2 and the other a FP1, the clients require "Must Run" to function. Of course it does not work. I can get it to work if I set the time for a few minutes later, but not for the next day. I have not used this feature ever in the past but since it is in the manual I wrongly assumed it would work. I am running firmware version 3.015 on both Mates. Tech support just wants me to do a factory reset and reprogram. That did not work. > > Anybody else having issues getting this feature to work? > > On a related note, software problems are becoming a systemics issue in our industry. Being recently burned by Schneider because of a software issue (to the point of breaking an appliance), now this, and endless other little bugs from almost every manufacturer my frustration level with software in the off-grid world is at a all time high. Given the importance of supplying power I firmly believe our manufactures can not and should not take the same approach to software as Silicon Valley does. "Fail early and often" may work for Facebook, Google and Uber but it has no place in our industry. Keep it simple and fight the urge to engage in feature creep. PLEASE. > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 11:27:12 2017 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 11:27:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FXR , Mate 3, AGS and Must Run In-Reply-To: <96B720EC-9549-4F10-8021-C5818181484F@gmail.com> References: <96B720EC-9549-4F10-8021-C5818181484F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lou, I have two systems using the must run for a half hour every day to keep the generator battery charged til we can run 120 AC to the generator battery charger when the snow is gone. The problem has been the generator faulting (usually frozen linkage- no carb heater- also waiting for 120 AC to the genny) That still requires human intervention to reset the generator. John Blittersdorf Rob Stubbins Solar On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 6:00 AM, jay wrote: > Hi Lou, > > I”ve had a few customers doing this exact operation with no issues. > It has been very consistent. > > jay > > peltz power > > > On Feb 12, 2017, at 8:12 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > > I have steered clear of the Mate 3 for as long as possible, I have burned > through my stash of FXs and now have been installing the FXRs and using the > Mate 3. I typically utilize AGS for my clients in a 2 - wire start with a > Diesel Genset setup. On 2 recently installed systems, one a FP2 and the > other a FP1, the clients require "Must Run" to function. Of course it does > not work. I can get it to work if I set the time for a few minutes later, > but not for the next day. I have not used this feature ever in the past but > since it is in the manual I wrongly assumed it would work. I am running > firmware version 3.015 on both Mates. Tech support just wants me to do a > factory reset and reprogram. That did not work. > > Anybody else having issues getting this feature to work? > > On a related note, software problems are becoming a systemics issue in our > industry. Being recently burned by Schneider because of a software issue > (to the point of breaking an appliance), now this, and endless other little > bugs from almost every manufacturer my frustration level with software in > the off-grid world is at a all time high. Given the importance of supplying > power I firmly believe our manufactures can not and should not take the > same approach to software as Silicon Valley does. "Fail early and often" > may work for Facebook, Google and Uber but it has no place in our > industry. Keep it simple and fight the urge to engage in feature creep. > PLEASE. > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 <(440)%20345-6762> > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Feb 13 11:50:31 2017 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:50:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FXR , Mate 3, AGS and Must Run In-Reply-To: <0281e668-974e-95d1-28eb-3daa528543df@solarray.com> References: <0281e668-974e-95d1-28eb-3daa528543df@solarray.com> Message-ID: <69bc6539152f46e9b7cfc2092d12ad63@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> You said one status screen differed from the other. Just a shot of the home screen on 3.15.3 Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FXR , Mate 3, AGS and Must Run I agree, software and firmware issues are becoming my #1 call back issue. Off grid, this is totally unacceptable. I'm not using either company you mentioned for off grid systems at this time because of reliability issues. I've had decent luck with Magnum, and find their control system easier for customers to navigate. Some of this becomes our design responsibility, too. I generally avoid auto start in the first place, and prefer customers that take an active role in the system operation. A SOC meter with a remote start switch next to it, operated by a competent human is going to be much more effective than any auto start setup. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 2/12/17 11:12 AM, Lou Russo wrote: Aloha Wrenches, I have steered clear of the Mate 3 for as long as possible, I have burned through my stash of FXs and now have been installing the FXRs and using the Mate 3. I typically utilize AGS for my clients in a 2 - wire start with a Diesel Genset setup. On 2 recently installed systems, one a FP2 and the other a FP1, the clients require "Must Run" to function. Of course it does not work. I can get it to work if I set the time for a few minutes later, but not for the next day. I have not used this feature ever in the past but since it is in the manual I wrongly assumed it would work. I am running firmware version 3.015 on both Mates. Tech support just wants me to do a factory reset and reprogram. That did not work. Anybody else having issues getting this feature to work? On a related note, software problems are becoming a systemics issue in our industry. Being recently burned by Schneider because of a software issue (to the point of breaking an appliance), now this, and endless other little bugs from almost every manufacturer my frustration level with software in the off-grid world is at a all time high. Given the importance of supplying power I firmly believe our manufactures can not and should not take the same approach to software as Silicon Valley does. "Fail early and often" may work for Facebook, Google and Uber but it has no place in our industry. Keep it simple and fight the urge to engage in feature creep. PLEASE. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 440 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Mon Feb 13 12:00:31 2017 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 07:00:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FXR , Mate 3, AGS and Must Run In-Reply-To: <69bc6539152f46e9b7cfc2092d12ad63@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <0281e668-974e-95d1-28eb-3daa528543df@solarray.com> <69bc6539152f46e9b7cfc2092d12ad63@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <7A76ED7E-67EC-408E-8F99-6AB47E1AFFE1@renewablenergy.com> Oh, The replacement Mate 3 with the older firmware, didn't have the power line emblem on the main screen. Although it was the one that put the CC into GT mode. I didn't leave this plugged in, I was just confirming the mate worked before taking it out to a job. > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. > Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER Vice President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com > On Feb 13, 2017, at 6:50 AM, Lones Tuss wrote: > > You said one status screen differed from the other. Just a shot of the home screen on 3.15.3 > > Lones Tuss > Applications Engineer > OutBack Power Technologies > 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 > 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell > www.outbackpower.com > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:29 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FXR , Mate 3, AGS and Must Run > > I agree, software and firmware issues are becoming my #1 call back issue. Off grid, this is totally unacceptable. I'm not using either company you mentioned for off grid systems at this time because of reliability issues. I've had decent luck with Magnum, and find their control system easier for customers to navigate. > > Some of this becomes our design responsibility, too. I generally avoid auto start in the first place, and prefer customers that take an active role in the system operation. A SOC meter with a remote start switch next to it, operated by a competent human is going to be much more effective than any auto start setup. > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/12/17 11:12 AM, Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > I have steered clear of the Mate 3 for as long as possible, I have burned through my stash of FXs and now have been installing the FXRs and using the Mate 3. I typically utilize AGS for my clients in a 2 - wire start with a Diesel Genset setup. On 2 recently installed systems, one a FP2 and the other a FP1, the clients require "Must Run" to function. Of course it does not work. I can get it to work if I set the time for a few minutes later, but not for the next day. I have not used this feature ever in the past but since it is in the manual I wrongly assumed it would work. I am running firmware version 3.015 on both Mates. Tech support just wants me to do a factory reset and reprogram. That did not work. > > Anybody else having issues getting this feature to work? > > On a related note, software problems are becoming a systemics issue in our industry. Being recently burned by Schneider because of a software issue (to the point of breaking an appliance), now this, and endless other little bugs from almost every manufacturer my frustration level with software in the off-grid world is at a all time high. Given the importance of supplying power I firmly believe our manufactures can not and should not take the same approach to software as Silicon Valley does. "Fail early and often" may work for Facebook, Google and Uber but it has no place in our industry. Keep it simple and fight the urge to engage in feature creep. PLEASE. > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Feb 16 15:40:36 2017 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 20:40:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Hub4 cover Message-ID: If anyone has a hub 4 wire cover, with no pieces cut out, please contact me off list. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Feb 16 17:24:44 2017 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 15:24:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using same PV array for water pump, battery charging Message-ID: <5706B7D7-8227-4F09-BD31-FA67C4A244EB@starlightsolar.com> Hello Wrenches, A customer has 3250 Watt PV array @ 139Voc. The PV controller is Magnum PT100. He wants to install a Grundfos SQFlex pump and be able to switch the DC from the PV controller to run the pump directly. He would like to switch midday after the battery (48V) is at a high SoC. I’m looking for a switching arrangement to do this without arcing since it will be used a few times each week. Any have a recommendation? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 19:24:47 2017 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 18:24:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using same PV array for water pump, battery charging In-Reply-To: <5706B7D7-8227-4F09-BD31-FA67C4A244EB@starlightsolar.com> References: <5706B7D7-8227-4F09-BD31-FA67C4A244EB@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Arcing would only happen when disconnecting pump during sunny periods, why not disconnect at dusk? Connecting pump will not arc due to soft start. Not sure about that particular charge controller, but some controllers can use Aux relay logic to do this upon full SOC. The Midnite Classic comes to mind. Swithcing can be done with contactor. Just a thought. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Feb 16, 2017 4:24 PM, "Starlight Solar Power Systems" < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > A customer has 3250 Watt PV array @ 139Voc. The PV controller is Magnum > PT100. He wants to install a Grundfos SQFlex pump and be able to switch the > DC from the PV controller to run the pump directly. He would like to switch > midday after the battery (48V) is at a high SoC. > > I’m looking for a switching arrangement to do this without arcing since it > will be used a few times each week. Any have a recommendation? > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 20:32:32 2017 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 17:32:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using same PV array for water pump, battery charging In-Reply-To: References: <5706B7D7-8227-4F09-BD31-FA67C4A244EB@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry. We did this recently. We settled on a Square D 60A 600VDC disconnect feeding a Midnite Solar Transfer switch with 60A, 300VDC breakers. We put an engraved placard on the transfer switch instructing the customer to turn off the disconnect first then to operate the transfer switch and when the transfer either way is completed to turn on the disconnect again. . It could have worked without the disconnect but we felt that it was probably an abundance of caution to operate the transfer switch with PV disconnected. Our application was switching from a Grundfos pump in the summer to a Fronius inverter in fall and the reverse in spring. . This was a seasonal transfer instead of daily transfer. Certainly not automated. But relatively fool proof and safe. Good luck. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > Arcing would only happen when disconnecting pump during sunny periods, why > not disconnect at dusk? Connecting pump will not arc due to soft start. Not > sure about that particular charge controller, but some controllers can use > Aux relay logic to do this upon full SOC. The Midnite Classic comes to > mind. Swithcing can be done with contactor. > Just a thought. > > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 <(631)%20514-4166> > www.windsine.org > > On Feb 16, 2017 4:24 PM, "Starlight Solar Power Systems" < > larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> A customer has 3250 Watt PV array @ 139Voc. The PV controller is Magnum >> PT100. He wants to install a Grundfos SQFlex pump and be able to switch the >> DC from the PV controller to run the pump directly. He would like to switch >> midday after the battery (48V) is at a high SoC. >> >> I’m looking for a switching arrangement to do this without arcing since >> it will be used a few times each week. Any have a recommendation? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 23:10:30 2017 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 23:10:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using same PV array for water pump, battery charging Message-ID: Greetings Larry, I can think of a number of ways this may be done. Not knowing the details of the existing system configuration, if the switching needs to be manual or automatic, what (if any) cycle of the NEC is in effect at the project location, and if the PV array is ground mounted or mounted on a building I do not know what design thoughts/suggestions may be most appropriate and helpful. If I understand the general goal and manual operation is acceptable this could be as simple as installing an appropriately rated double-throw switch (on-off-on switch) or transfer switch into the PV output circuit between the array and the charge controller. The PV output circuit would be the feed to the switch and the charge controller and pump would be the selectable loads. Some details to consider for this would include; if the double-throw switch or transfer switch is load break rated or not, where the array over current protection device(s) (OCPDs) and disconnect(s) are located, where the charge controller input disconnect is located, and if and how this configuration impacts any GFDI (Ground-Fault Detector Interrupter) and AFCI (Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter) protection provided by the charge controller or other components in the system. Proper labeling and signage for sequence, operation, safety, and applicable NEC requirements will need to be considered as well. I installed some double-throw switches manufactured by Eaton not too long ago. I believe they were 250VDC rated. If you are interested in looking into double-throw switches you may want to call the folks at the Eaton Flex Center (1-888-329-9272) to get assistance with specifying an appropriate double-throw switch. Circuit breaker type bypass assemblies and transfer switches are available and may be less expensive than a double-throw switch, but these may not be readily available with the DC rating this project requires and most I have seen are only rated for indoor installation. I am not sure if you will be looking for a solution which will be installed indoors or outdoors, but this is a detail to consider. If you are looking for an automatic or semiautomatic solution I believe the Magnum PT-100 charge controller does have an auxiliary relay which can be triggered based on battery system voltage. I have not worked with the PT-100, but it is my understanding it needs to be networked with a Magnum remote control to use the auxiliary relay based on battery voltage. This auxiliary relay could signal an automatic transfer switch system or contactors to perform the needed switching. Also; I believe Morningstar has a DC transfer switch for use with their 600VDC TriStar charge controller... I do not know if they may offer this as a separate item, but you may want to reach out for them to inquire as well. Learning the details about the switch they use in their product and sourcing it as a separate item could provide you with a solution you custom build to suit the project. I hope you may find some of these thoughts helpful. Please let us know how you proceed and how it all works out. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com ------ Original Message Below ------ [RE-wrenches] Using same PV array for water pump, battery charging Starlight Solar Power Systems larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Feb 16 14:24:44 PST 2017 Hello Wrenches, A customer has 3250 Watt PV array @ 139Voc. The PV controller is Magnum PT100. He wants to install a Grundfos SQFlex pump and be able to switch the DC from the PV controller to run the pump directly. He would like to switch midday after the battery (48V) is at a high SoC. I’m looking for a switching arrangement to do this without arcing since it will be used a few times each week. Any have a recommendation? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems From solareagle at solareagle.com Sun Feb 19 03:30:05 2017 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 00:30:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings Message-ID: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> Hi Wrenches, anyone have a link to a recent study on PV ratings, solar panel performance type data? Something within the last two years? Many thanks! Ron Young earthRight Solar From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 19 23:59:12 2017 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 22:59:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings In-Reply-To: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <00d601d28b36$156374a0$402a5de0$@sbcglobal.net> Home Power used to do one that I thought was quite useful, but don't know that the most recent is within the last two years. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 2:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings Hi Wrenches, anyone have a link to a recent study on PV ratings, solar panel performance type data? Something within the last two years? Many thanks! Ron Young earthRight Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 16:56:55 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 23:56:55 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc rated multi meter/clamp on In-Reply-To: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <41FCFFA7-E6C6-4942-B340-F20D76B64632@gmail.com> HI All, I’m in the market for a 1000vdc rated multi meter clamp on. I am looking for what others would buy again or have thoughts on. It doesn’t have to be a clamp on, but I would need a clamp on option. I’ve looked at the Fluke 233, but the flex clamp doesn’t work with it, and maybe there are some issues with battery life The 375/376 FC look solid The Seaward clamp meter And there are a few others. All thoughts are welcome, thanks jay peltz power From august at luminalt.com Mon Feb 20 11:08:48 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 08:08:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc rated multi meter/clamp on In-Reply-To: <41FCFFA7-E6C6-4942-B340-F20D76B64632@gmail.com> References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> <41FCFFA7-E6C6-4942-B340-F20D76B64632@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31890179f46e27a8678745a0d8e9a1f2@mail.gmail.com> We have a couple of Fluke 381 meters. I recommend them although battery life has been a problem. Now we always keep spare batteries in the case. I like having the iFlex option for measuring amperage where the standard clamp jaws can't reach. The removable display is nice but not a must have for me. Our crew members supply their own meters here at Luminalt. I've seen all kinds of brands with differing quality. It is somewhat shocking how often cheap meters fail or give the wrong readings. There is nothing worse than having a meter you need to count on either not work or give a bogus reading. Separately, I have a fluke 116 meter for HVAC and it is my go to for normal day to day work. We still service solar hot water systems and it reads thermistors accurately whereas the normal electrician types meters often do not. August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 1:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc rated multi meter/clamp on HI All, I’m in the market for a 1000vdc rated multi meter clamp on. I am looking for what others would buy again or have thoughts on. It doesn’t have to be a clamp on, but I would need a clamp on option. I’ve looked at the Fluke 233, but the flex clamp doesn’t work with it, and maybe there are some issues with battery life The 375/376 FC look solid The Seaward clamp meter And there are a few others. All thoughts are welcome, thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Feb 20 11:04:11 2017 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 06:04:11 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings In-Reply-To: <00d601d28b36$156374a0$402a5de0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> <00d601d28b36$156374a0$402a5de0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Photon magazine used to do such a survey. But I think that they have disappeared. On Sunday, February 19, 2017, William Dorsett wrote: > Home Power used to do one that I thought was quite useful, but don't know > that the most recent is within the last two years. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On > Behalf Of Ron Young > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 2:30 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings > > Hi Wrenches, anyone have a link to a recent study on PV ratings, solar > panel > performance type data? Something within the last two years? Many thanks! > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Feb 20 11:06:24 2017 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 10:06:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings Message-ID: <0c4901d28b93$4ad32290$e07967b0$@solarcentex.com> I've used this list before for ratings. http://www.principalsolarinstitute.org/uploads/custom/3/psi_ratings_by_manuf acturer.php Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Feb 20 12:14:53 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (RayBR) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 10:14:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc rated multi meter/clamp on In-Reply-To: <41FCFFA7-E6C6-4942-B340-F20D76B64632@gmail.com> References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> <41FCFFA7-E6C6-4942-B340-F20D76B64632@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83282843-eab0-0bab-369f-7b5be53771c2@solarray.com> The Seaward offers a lot of features for the money. Not sure if you need THD or instantaneous power readings, but its nice. I've had a bit of trouble navigating the extensive menus, it sometimes seems to freeze, but so does every computer and phone I have used too. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 2/19/17 2:56 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m in the market for a 1000vdc rated multi meter clamp on. > > I am looking for what others would buy again or have thoughts on. > > It doesn’t have to be a clamp on, but I would need a clamp on option. > > I’ve looked at the Fluke 233, but the flex clamp doesn’t work with it, and maybe there are some issues with battery life > The 375/376 FC look solid > The Seaward clamp meter > > And there are a few others. > > All thoughts are welcome, > > thanks > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Feb 20 12:08:25 2017 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 07:08:25 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc rated multi meter/clamp on In-Reply-To: <31890179f46e27a8678745a0d8e9a1f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> <41FCFFA7-E6C6-4942-B340-F20D76B64632@gmail.com> <31890179f46e27a8678745a0d8e9a1f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I live the Klein CL 2000. On Monday, February 20, 2017, August Goers wrote: > We have a couple of Fluke 381 meters. I recommend them although battery > life > has been a problem. Now we always keep spare batteries in the case. > > I like having the iFlex option for measuring amperage where the standard > clamp jaws can't reach. The removable display is nice but not a must have > for me. > > Our crew members supply their own meters here at Luminalt. I've seen all > kinds of brands with differing quality. It is somewhat shocking how often > cheap meters fail or give the wrong readings. There is nothing worse than > having a meter you need to count on either not work or give a bogus > reading. > > Separately, I have a fluke 116 meter for HVAC and it is my go to for normal > day to day work. We still service solar hot water systems and it reads > thermistors accurately whereas the normal electrician types meters often do > not. > > August > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On > Behalf Of jay > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 1:57 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc rated multi meter/clamp on > > HI All, > > I’m in the market for a 1000vdc rated multi meter clamp on. > > I am looking for what others would buy again or have thoughts on. > > It doesn’t have to be a clamp on, but I would need a clamp on option. > > I’ve looked at the Fluke 233, but the flex clamp doesn’t work with it, and > maybe there are some issues with battery life The 375/376 FC look solid The > Seaward clamp meter > > And there are a few others. > > All thoughts are welcome, > > thanks > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Feb 21 09:14:25 2017 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc rated multi meter/clamp on Message-ID: <20170221071425.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.b3b49ff670.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Tue Feb 21 10:45:10 2017 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:45:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings In-Reply-To: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> Message-ID: It's not exactly what you're asking for, but Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition ranks module manufacturers by social and environmental responsibility, which I appreciate. You can find results from 2009 through 2015 on their website, and 2016 is coming soon. http://www.solarscorecard.com/2015/2015-scorecard.php I haven't seen a performance comparison in a few years. You can find the Photon module yield tests up until 2014 online, but even those were limited to sometimes one model from a manufacturer which did not necessarily represent the available technology. Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm) -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 2:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings Hi Wrenches, anyone have a link to a recent study on PV ratings, solar panel performance type data? Something within the last two years? Many thanks! Ron Young earthRight Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From lauraconchelos at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 14:52:39 2017 From: lauraconchelos at gmail.com (Laura Conchelos) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:52:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Rapid Shutdown issues Message-ID: I wondered if anybody else had run into issues with SMA's rapid shutdown box? We turned on the system about a month ago and seem to have problems with the relays in the rapid shutdown not closing periodically. Unfortunately it is an intermittent problem so unless we're onsite at the right time, there is nothing SMA will do. Two of us have been through troubleshooting with them and the system works fine. The client has reset the disconnect a couple of times with the key at the controller. One time it worked. Another time it did not and the light on the red button stayed on. It seems as though the connection from the array to the inverter will come back in the morning even if the disconnect box wasn't allowing it the day before. We're guessing a bad relay but haven't been able to prove it so far. Laura Conchelos Solar Gain Services Monte Vista CO 81144 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 15:04:54 2017 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:04:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Rapid Shutdown issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know that when I talked to SMA about our first install with the RSD boxes they suggested an order of operations for making all the final connections that might not be mentioned in the install manual. It wAs supposed to help prevent some problem they had been having with the boxes (although I'm unclear what the specifics of the problem was). They mentioned that they were having people disconnect all the MC connections to the box and re connect to reset the box if an issue occurred. We never ended up having any issues so didn't need to go Through that procedure. Don't know if they mentioned that as an option for you on your trouble shooting? On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 1:52 PM Laura Conchelos wrote: > I wondered if anybody else had run into issues with SMA's rapid shutdown > box? We turned on the system about a month ago and seem to have problems > with the relays in the rapid shutdown not closing periodically. > Unfortunately it is an intermittent problem so unless we're onsite at the > right time, there is nothing SMA will do. Two of us have been through > troubleshooting with them and the system works fine. The client has reset > the disconnect a couple of times with the key at the controller. One time > it worked. Another time it did not and the light on the red button stayed > on. > > It seems as though the connection from the array to the inverter will come > back in the morning even if the disconnect box wasn't allowing it the day > before. We're guessing a bad relay but haven't been able to prove it so > far. > > Laura Conchelos > Solar Gain Services > Monte Vista CO > 81144 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 21 13:22:55 2017 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:22:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings In-Reply-To: References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <004c01d28c6f$8635d8a0$92a189e0$@sbcglobal.net> We began buying Canadian Solar thinking that their third party insurance would cover when other module manufacturers were going belly up i.e. SunTech. We thought this meant that their factories would at least meet certain CS licensing requirements. But with module prices dropping to very low points you have to believe there is a lower expectation of quality. So at this point, the question might be whether the insurer (the Chubb Group) is willing to cover CS modules because they are especially reliable, or whether CS or its third party manufacturers will be tempted to lower their expectations because they are covered. Apparently BoViet is producing at least some of their product line and there must be tension between the branding company and the insurer. They may be good and I've seen advertising where BoViet is willing to insurer their modules for one year...not long for a 25 to 30 year product. Third party insurance may have become more common in the industry but at the time of our decision, it was only CS. I think it is especially important to keep updated on this with new low prices. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Garrison Riegel Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings It's not exactly what you're asking for, but Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition ranks module manufacturers by social and environmental responsibility, which I appreciate. You can find results from 2009 through 2015 on their website, and 2016 is coming soon. http://www.solarscorecard.com/2015/2015-scorecard.php I haven't seen a performance comparison in a few years. You can find the Photon module yield tests up until 2014 online, but even those were limited to sometimes one model from a manufacturer which did not necessarily represent the available technology. Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm) -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 2:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings Hi Wrenches, anyone have a link to a recent study on PV ratings, solar panel performance type data? Something within the last two years? Many thanks! Ron Young earthRight Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Tue Feb 21 17:25:10 2017 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 17:25:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings In-Reply-To: References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> <004c01d28c6f$8635d8a0$92a189e0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Feb 21, 2017 4:29 PM, "Ken Schaal" wrote: This where i rely on my distributor , and don't buy bottom dollar. On Feb 21, 2017 4:22 PM, "William Dorsett" wrote: > We began buying Canadian Solar thinking that their third party insurance > would cover when other module manufacturers were going belly up i.e. > SunTech. We thought this meant that their factories would at least meet > certain CS licensing requirements. But with module prices dropping to very > low points you have to believe there is a lower expectation of quality. So > at this point, the question might be whether the insurer (the Chubb Group) > is willing to cover CS modules because they are especially reliable, or > whether CS or its third party manufacturers will be tempted to lower their > expectations because they are covered. Apparently BoViet is producing at > least some of their product line and there must be tension between the > branding company and the insurer. They may be good and I've seen > advertising > where BoViet is willing to insurer their modules for one year...not long > for > a 25 to 30 year product. Third party insurance may have become more common > in the industry but at the time of our decision, it was only CS. I think it > is especially important to keep updated on this with new low prices. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Garrison Riegel > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:45 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings > > It's not exactly what you're asking for, but Silicon Valley Toxics > Coalition > ranks module manufacturers by social and environmental responsibility, > which > I appreciate. You can find results from 2009 through 2015 on their > website, > and 2016 is coming soon. > > http://www.solarscorecard.com/2015/2015-scorecard.php > > I haven't seen a performance comparison in a few years. You can find the > Photon module yield tests up until 2014 online, but even those were limited > to sometimes one model from a manufacturer which did not necessarily > represent the available technology. > > Garrison > > Garrison Riegel > PV Manager | Solar Service Inc > [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm) > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ron Young > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 2:30 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV ratings > > Hi Wrenches, anyone have a link to a recent study on PV ratings, solar > panel > performance type data? Something within the last two years? Many thanks! > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 23:06:35 2017 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 22:06:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc rated multi meter/clamp on In-Reply-To: <31890179f46e27a8678745a0d8e9a1f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6A168298-F85F-4275-9A12-86556206A69C@solareagle.com> <41FCFFA7-E6C6-4942-B340-F20D76B64632@gmail.com> <31890179f46e27a8678745a0d8e9a1f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1C0D65-8384-444A-89FD-40F34C8F70FE@gmail.com> I use the Klein CL2000 and I believe it's 1000V rated cat3. I don't like the way the leads attach but other than that I like the meter. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 20, 2017, at 10:08 AM, August Goers wrote: > > We have a couple of Fluke 381 meters. I recommend them although battery life > has been a problem. Now we always keep spare batteries in the case. > > I like having the iFlex option for measuring amperage where the standard > clamp jaws can't reach. The removable display is nice but not a must have > for me. > > Our crew members supply their own meters here at Luminalt. I've seen all > kinds of brands with differing quality. It is somewhat shocking how often > cheap meters fail or give the wrong readings. There is nothing worse than > having a meter you need to count on either not work or give a bogus reading. > > Separately, I have a fluke 116 meter for HVAC and it is my go to for normal > day to day work. We still service solar hot water systems and it reads > thermistors accurately whereas the normal electrician types meters often do > not. > > August > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of jay > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 1:57 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc rated multi meter/clamp on > > HI All, > > I’m in the market for a 1000vdc rated multi meter clamp on. > > I am looking for what others would buy again or have thoughts on. > > It doesn’t have to be a clamp on, but I would need a clamp on option. > > I’ve looked at the Fluke 233, but the flex clamp doesn’t work with it, and > maybe there are some issues with battery life The 375/376 FC look solid The > Seaward clamp meter > > And there are a few others. > > All thoughts are welcome, > > thanks > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Feb 22 12:08:55 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 12:08:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rayport Ballasted Racking Message-ID: <20170222171000.1E21B10896@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have any Rayport ballasted racking? I would be interested in clearing it off your shelf. Please contact me off the list. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rack drawing.docx Type: application/msword Size: 748540 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Wed Feb 22 13:31:34 2017 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:31:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World 325s References: <2089717168.2681058.1487788294719.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2089717168.2681058.1487788294719@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Folks, Does anyone have any experience or thoughts good or bad with these panels assembled in Thailand?  Thanks, Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Feb 22 14:17:27 2017 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 12:17:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Message-ID: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> Hello Wrenches, Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available that can do the job? Any input is appreciated. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Wed Feb 22 15:00:39 2017 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 12:00:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <29835120db658b9b66f90de8fb1f4034@mail.gmail.com> Hi Larry, This is not a new idea. It’s called “Vehicle-to-Grid” or “V2G”, and is a big subject of discussion in Europe. If everyone had an electric vehicle in their driveway, it would represent a huge (yuge?) distributed battery bank over the whole country. I think that’s a great idea. As far as I know, the SolarEdge “StorEdge” 7.6 kW inverter is the only inverter with this capability right now, although many other inverter companies are working on inverters that can operate with high-voltage batteries. The StorEdge is designed to work with the Tesla home battery, which is basically a smaller version of the Model-S battery pack. The inverter would have to be programmable to work with the battery’s BMS, and limit the discharge so that the vehicle’s battery is only drained to some set-point. You wouldn’t want to completely drain the battery, at least not if you want to use the vehicle. I doubt that it would make any economic sense at this point in time, but the future is bright. Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems *Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hello Wrenches, Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available that can do the job? Any input is appreciated. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Feb 22 15:04:41 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 12:04:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <32e8c39d25742f57cd7dc35c5d0673de@mail.gmail.com> Larry – My immediate thought is that you would need a listed grid tied inverter designed for the purpose of connecting to this type of battery and inverting to the grid. A regular PV inverter won’t cut it since it is designed to MPT PV modules. The SolarEdge StorEdge product sounds like the closest thing on the market that might be close to working. But, once again, it needs to be setup to work with your particular battery. I think StorEdge is planning on working with Tesla and LG Chem RESU batteries in the 350 to 400 v range. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems *Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hello Wrenches, Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available that can do the job? Any input is appreciated. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 15:17:24 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 10:17:24 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: <29835120db658b9b66f90de8fb1f4034@mail.gmail.com> References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> <29835120db658b9b66f90de8fb1f4034@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I agree with Brian, l get this question from customers all the time going back many years. First of all, my questions in responce start with why, maybe peak load sheding ok, second question now what, you did the peak shed now you need to recharge that battery. Last thing you you should do is deplete the range your car has and cycling of the battery does also have an prolonged reduction in life cycle of the battery. Who would want to warranty that. Sure it might sound like an untapped resource, maybe end of the world stuff when nothing matters but would you such all the gas out of your car to run your house, then what, not me. Not a good long term solution On Feb 22, 2017 10:00 AM, "Brian Teitelbaum" wrote: Hi Larry, This is not a new idea. It’s called “Vehicle-to-Grid” or “V2G”, and is a big subject of discussion in Europe. If everyone had an electric vehicle in their driveway, it would represent a huge (yuge?) distributed battery bank over the whole country. I think that’s a great idea. As far as I know, the SolarEdge “StorEdge” 7.6 kW inverter is the only inverter with this capability right now, although many other inverter companies are working on inverters that can operate with high-voltage batteries. The StorEdge is designed to work with the Tesla home battery, which is basically a smaller version of the Model-S battery pack. The inverter would have to be programmable to work with the battery’s BMS, and limit the discharge so that the vehicle’s battery is only drained to some set-point. You wouldn’t want to completely drain the battery, at least not if you want to use the vehicle. I doubt that it would make any economic sense at this point in time, but the future is bright. Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems *Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hello Wrenches, Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available that can do the job? Any input is appreciated. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Feb 22 18:28:10 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:28:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: <29835120db658b9b66f90de8fb1f4034@mail.gmail.com> References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> <29835120db658b9b66f90de8fb1f4034@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170222232850.9E7BA109F6@che.dreamhost.com> I think the Pika Energy also works at a high voltage with their batteries. Technology seems to be quite similar to Store Edge. -----Original Message----- From: "Brian Teitelbaum" Sent: ‎2/‎22/‎2017 15:00 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hi Larry, This is not a new idea. It’s called “Vehicle-to-Grid” or “V2G”, and is a big subject of discussion in Europe. If everyone had an electric vehicle in their driveway, it would represent a huge (yuge?) distributed battery bank over the whole country. I think that’s a great idea. As far as I know, the SolarEdge “StorEdge” 7.6 kW inverter is the only inverter with this capability right now, although many other inverter companies are working on inverters that can operate with high-voltage batteries. The StorEdge is designed to work with the Tesla home battery, which is basically a smaller version of the Model-S battery pack. The inverter would have to be programmable to work with the battery’s BMS, and limit the discharge so that the vehicle’s battery is only drained to some set-point. You wouldn’t want to completely drain the battery, at least not if you want to use the vehicle. I doubt that it would make any economic sense at this point in time, but the future is bright. Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems *Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hello Wrenches, Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available that can do the job? Any input is appreciated. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Feb 22 23:02:03 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:02:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: <20170222232850.9E7BA109F6@che.dreamhost.com> References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> <29835120db658b9b66f90de8fb1f4034@mail.gmail.com> <20170222232850.9E7BA109F6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <4b9c60ca-a96f-4108-0885-b3b7b86f7f3d@psln.com> There are many places these days where you can charge your car for free. I believe the thinking is you get a few KW's from the charger at the mall (not that many, they aren't very fast chargers), however the mall is picking your pocket (I mean selling you their goods) while you're shopping there. I see a potential abuse though of leaving your car there all day, charging (free), go home and sell those KW's to the grid during on-peak TOU. Human nature....nasty stuff. They'll have to figure out how to make it all fair and efficient. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 2/22/2017 3:28 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > I think the Pika Energy also works at a high voltage with their > batteries. Technology seems to be quite similar to Store Edge. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Brian Teitelbaum > Sent: ‎2/‎22/‎2017 15:00 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery > > Hi Larry, > > This is not a new idea. It’s called “Vehicle-to-Grid” or “V2G”, and is > a big subject of discussion in Europe. > > If everyone had an electric vehicle in their driveway, it would > represent a huge (yuge?) distributed battery bank over the whole > country. I think that’s a great idea. > > As far as I know, the SolarEdge “StorEdge” 7.6 kW inverter is the only > inverter with this capability right now, although many other inverter > companies are working on inverters that can operate with high-voltage > batteries. The StorEdge is designed to work with the Tesla home > battery, which is basically a smaller version of the Model-S battery > pack. The inverter would have to be programmable to work with the > battery’s BMS, and limit the discharge so that the vehicle’s battery > is only drained to some set-point. You wouldn’t want to completely > drain the battery, at least not if you want to use the vehicle. > > I doubt that it would make any economic sense at this point in time, > but the future is bright. > > Brian > > AEE Solar > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Starlight Solar Power Systems > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery > > Hello Wrenches, > > Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. > They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect > a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and > feed the grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure > bugs me. > > My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My > thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an > inverter available that can do the job? > > Any input is appreciated. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Feb 23 18:14:25 2017 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 16:14:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: <32e8c39d25742f57cd7dc35c5d0673de@mail.gmail.com> References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> <32e8c39d25742f57cd7dc35c5d0673de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello August, Help me understand your point. If the MPPT circuit is sweeping, it will see the same voltage everywhere. Would it not just continue sweeping because it can’t lock on? Or perhaps it times out? As long as it is producing power during that process, won’t it be fine? Thanks to all for the responses. Larry On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:04 PM, August Goers wrote: Larry – My immediate thought is that you would need a listed grid tied inverter designed for the purpose of connecting to this type of battery and inverting to the grid. A regular PV inverter won’t cut it since it is designed to MPT PV modules. The SolarEdge StorEdge product sounds like the closest thing on the market that might be close to working. But, once again, it needs to be setup to work with your particular battery. I think StorEdge is planning on working with Tesla and LG Chem RESU batteries in the 350 to 400 v range. August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hello Wrenches, Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available that can do the job? Any input is appreciated. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 18:31:30 2017 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 16:31:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> <32e8c39d25742f57cd7dc35c5d0673de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry, I doubt the MPPT algorithm would be able to actually vary the voltage of the battery bank like it can the PV string. Also, I think that the actual MPP of a battery bank would be much higher amperage than the inverter could export. It would be an interesting to see if it would just max out the exported amperage or if something else would happen. I'll donate some older non-code compliant Sunny Boys if you want to try it. On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Hello August, > > Help me understand your point. If the MPPT circuit is sweeping, it will > see the same voltage everywhere. Would it not just continue sweeping > because it can’t lock on? Or perhaps it times out? As long as it is > producing power during that process, won’t it be fine? > > Thanks to all for the responses. > > Larry > > > > > On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:04 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Larry – > > > My immediate thought is that you would need a listed grid tied inverter > designed for the purpose of connecting to this type of battery and > inverting to the grid. A regular PV inverter won’t cut it since it is > designed to MPT PV modules. > > > The SolarEdge StorEdge product sounds like the closest thing on the market > that might be close to working. But, once again, it needs to be setup to > work with your particular battery. I think StorEdge is planning on working > with Tesla and LG Chem RESU batteries in the 350 to 400 v range. > > > August > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. > They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a > 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the > grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. > > > My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My > thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an > inverter available that can do the job? > > > Any input is appreciated. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Feb 23 18:37:29 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 15:37:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> <32e8c39d25742f57cd7dc35c5d0673de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry, I have no idea what would happen if you connected a DC high voltage (340 v) battery source to a PV inverter. I guess my point is that it isn’t designed for it and likely wouldn’t work. Maybe it would? I have to think that both the inverter and the EV would have some sort of logic or circuitry to prevent the inverter from just pulling juice from the battery. Regardless, the inverter wouldn’t have the controls setup to decide when to start inverting and when to stop. Technically, you might be right though – the MPPT circuit on the inverter might just sweep and invert. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems *Sent:* Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:14 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hello August, Help me understand your point. If the MPPT circuit is sweeping, it will see the same voltage everywhere. Would it not just continue sweeping because it can’t lock on? Or perhaps it times out? As long as it is producing power during that process, won’t it be fine? Thanks to all for the responses. Larry On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:04 PM, August Goers wrote: Larry – My immediate thought is that you would need a listed grid tied inverter designed for the purpose of connecting to this type of battery and inverting to the grid. A regular PV inverter won’t cut it since it is designed to MPT PV modules. The SolarEdge StorEdge product sounds like the closest thing on the market that might be close to working. But, once again, it needs to be setup to work with your particular battery. I think StorEdge is planning on working with Tesla and LG Chem RESU batteries in the 350 to 400 v range. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems *Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hello Wrenches, Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available that can do the job? Any input is appreciated. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Feb 23 20:04:58 2017 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 18:04:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> <32e8c39d25742f57cd7dc35c5d0673de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The idea is to use an inverter manually as a current dump to the grid from the EV battery as opposed to just driving around to discharge the battery. No automation or communication required. This is not for a permanent connection. So they will connect, discharge, then disconnect when done. If the inverter regulates output based on its power capability, e.g. a 5kW inverter limits power to 5kW (as I’ve been told in on off-list response), then it really should not matter what the MPP circuits are doing. Mac Lewis, Very nice offer. I’ll let them know. Thanks everyone. Larry On Feb 23, 2017, at 4:37 PM, August Goers wrote: Hi Larry, I have no idea what would happen if you connected a DC high voltage (340 v) battery source to a PV inverter. I guess my point is that it isn’t designed for it and likely wouldn’t work. Maybe it would? I have to think that both the inverter and the EV would have some sort of logic or circuitry to prevent the inverter from just pulling juice from the battery. Regardless, the inverter wouldn’t have the controls setup to decide when to start inverting and when to stop. Technically, you might be right though – the MPPT circuit on the inverter might just sweep and invert. August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hello August, Help me understand your point. If the MPPT circuit is sweeping, it will see the same voltage everywhere. Would it not just continue sweeping because it can’t lock on? Or perhaps it times out? As long as it is producing power during that process, won’t it be fine? Thanks to all for the responses. Larry On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:04 PM, August Goers > wrote: Larry – My immediate thought is that you would need a listed grid tied inverter designed for the purpose of connecting to this type of battery and inverting to the grid. A regular PV inverter won’t cut it since it is designed to MPT PV modules. The SolarEdge StorEdge product sounds like the closest thing on the market that might be close to working. But, once again, it needs to be setup to work with your particular battery. I think StorEdge is planning on working with Tesla and LG Chem RESU batteries in the 350 to 400 v range. August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery Hello Wrenches, Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter available that can do the job? Any input is appreciated. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Feb 25 11:15:28 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 11:15:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery In-Reply-To: References: <800657D1-028F-4523-A282-B7EFADEBFBE4@starlightsolar.com> <32e8c39d25742f57cd7dc35c5d0673de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170225161532.A50D01026D@che.dreamhost.com> What about the limit on current that can be put on a string into a Sunny Boy? The battery will provide thousands of amps. At 06:31 PM 2/23/2017, you wrote: >Hi Larry, > >I doubt the MPPT algorithm would be able to >actually vary the voltage of the battery bank >like it can the PV string. Also, I think that >the actual MPP of a battery bank would be much >higher amperage than the inverter could >export. It would be an interesting to see if >it would just max out the exported amperage or >if something else would happen. I'll donate >some older non-code compliant Sunny Boys if you want to try it.  > > > > >On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Starlight Solar >Power Systems ><larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: >Hello August, > >Help me understand your point. If the MPPT >circuit is sweeping, it will see the same >voltage everywhere. Would it not just continue >sweeping because it can’t lock on? Or perhaps >it times out? As long as it is producing power >during that process, won’t it be fine? > >Thanks to all for the responses. > >Larry > > > > >On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:04 PM, August Goers ><august at luminalt.com> wrote: > >Larry – > > >My immediate thought is that you would need a >listed grid tied inverter designed for the >purpose of connecting to this type of battery >and inverting to the grid. A regular PV inverter >won’t cut it since it is designed to MPT PV modules. > > >The SolarEdge StorEdge product sounds like the >closest thing on the market that might be close >to working. But, once again, it needs to be >setup to work with your particular battery. I >think StorEdge is planning on working with Tesla >and LG Chem RESU batteries in the 350 to 400 v range. > > >August > > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems >Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery > > >Hello Wrenches, > > >Someone has asked me about discharging their EV >battery into the grid. They have an existing >grit tie system. What they want to do is connect >a 5kW grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh >EV battery bank and feed the grid to discharge >the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me. > > >My uneducated guess is the inverter will be >immediately damaged. My thought is how would it >limit the input current? Or, is there such an >inverter available that can do the job? > > >Any input is appreciated. > >Larry Crutcher >Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > >-- > > > >Mac Lewis > >"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Feb 27 14:10:30 2017 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 12:10:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: An interesting article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, One of my clients sent me this article on seasonal array tilt angles: http://www.solarpaneltilt.com/#2season It challenges some of the long-held numbers, although not substantially, and I found it worth a review. I have long advocated adjustment twice a year, staying at latitude tilt for nine months and latitude +15 for winter, presuming that for most homes a latitude tilt will be adequate over the summer months without a second pair of adjustments. I have long figured that the fewer required maintenance operations the more they'll actually get done. After reviewing this article I replied to the client who sent it to me, whose home is at 7,000' at 35.5 ° latitude: Bill, Thanks for this. I'll assume that you're welcoming my response, so in short... For me as an advisor principally to off grid homeowners, I'll err on the side of practicality, simplicity and ease of remembrance over accuracy. That's why, for example, I recommend two angle adjustments/year over four. Also, as Landau himself states, "A difference of a few degrees will make very little difference in the energy you gather". This information was of greater consequence when PV was far more expensive than it is today. My original and purposely simplistic recommendation was to adjust to latitude +15 for winter and back to latitude for the rest of the year. I gave an approximate date around November 10th, (midway between the fall equinox and the winter solstice) to increase the tilt, with a return to latitude around February 10th (midway between the winter solstice and the spring equinox). Extrapolating using his calculations for 4X/year, I would adjust to winter angle earlier (his target is October 7th), such as "during October" and returning later (his target is March 5th), such as "late February or early March". Using Landau's figures for 35°, that suggests 32.0 for spring/summer/fall and 55.2 for winter, adding half a degree or so for your location, with an unknown adjustment for the higher elevation. Given your DP&W pole-top rack with its 10-degree adjustment increments, this means only that we have no need to drill the additional hole in the adjustment bar at 50 degrees. The supplied holes at 35 and 55 are best. You'll want only to broaden the duration of your winter tilt angle on both ends. Good exercise! I appreciate your sending this along, as I have always worked from longtime collective-wisdom guidelines, having never seen these calculations laid out with such accuracy. I'll be interested in any comments from other Wrenches who take the time to review the link. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Feb 27 16:47:24 2017 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 16:47:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: An interesting article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are two issues that make the article overly simplistic I think. - As the author admits, the calculations only work for arrays with due south orientation and states that "Solar panels should always face true south." - The article ignores weather/temperature, which is one reason the statement above is not completely accurate. For example, where I live the summer afternoons are cloudy and very hot just about every day. Winter days are crystal clear with little haze. For fixed arrays the annual optimum array orientation is about latitude minus three degrees and 170 degrees from true north. The benefit you get here from adjusting tilt twice a year is less than other areas may be for weather reasons. In fact, you could possibly gain more by keeping the same annual optimum tilt and adjusting the orientation twice a year (in a pole mount scenario). In the summer the best orientation is somewhere east of 170 and west of 170 in the winter (presumably close to 180). Granted, I’m now at 25 degrees north latitude, so the article is on the edge of being accurate in my situation, but I know for a fact that local weather patterns make the “due south” recommendation inaccurate in many places, and the benefits of tilt changes can’t be optimized without taking weather into account. Jason On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > > One of my clients sent me this article on seasonal array tilt angles: > http://www.solarpaneltilt.com/#2season > > It challenges some of the long-held numbers, although not substantially, > and I found it worth a review. > > I have long advocated adjustment twice a year, staying at latitude tilt > for nine months and latitude +15 for winter, presuming that for most homes > a latitude tilt will be adequate over the summer months without a second > pair of adjustments. I have long figured that the fewer required > maintenance operations the more they'll actually get done. After reviewing > this article I replied to the client who sent it to me, whose home is at > 7,000' at 35.5 ° latitude: > > Bill, > Thanks for this. I'll assume that you're welcoming my response, so in > short... > > For me as an advisor principally to off grid homeowners, I'll err on the > side of practicality, simplicity and ease of remembrance over accuracy. > That's why, for example, I recommend two angle adjustments/year over four. > Also, as Landau himself states, "A difference of a few degrees will make > very little difference in the energy you gather". This information was of > greater consequence when PV was far more expensive than it is today. > > My original and purposely simplistic recommendation was to adjust to > latitude +15 for winter and back to latitude for the rest of the year. I > gave an approximate date around November 10th, (midway between the fall > equinox and the winter solstice) to increase the tilt, with a return to > latitude around February 10th (midway between the winter solstice and the > spring equinox). Extrapolating using his calculations for 4X/year, I would > adjust to winter angle earlier (his target is October 7th), such as "during > October" and returning later (his target is March 5th), such as "late > February or early March". Using Landau's figures for 35°, that suggests > 32.0 for spring/summer/fall and 55.2 for winter, adding half a degree or so > for your location, with an unknown adjustment for the higher elevation. > > Given your DP&W pole-top rack with its 10-degree adjustment increments, > this means only that we have no need to drill the additional hole in the > adjustment bar at 50 degrees. The supplied holes at 35 and 55 are best. > You'll want only to broaden the duration of your winter tilt angle on both > ends. > > Good exercise! I appreciate your sending this along, as I have always > worked from longtime collective-wisdom guidelines, having never seen these > calculations laid out with such accuracy. > > I'll be interested in any comments from other Wrenches who take the time > to review the link. > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Feb 28 22:48:59 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 19:48:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: An interesting article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> Hey Alan, What I've seen over the years is GT customers /might/ change their their tilt angle for a year or two and then that's it for that job, the array is then left at about 30-35 degrees for the duration. My guess is 10-15% of my customers change tilt angle on a regular basis year after year. Off-grid sees a somewhat higher percentage of people that seasonally adjust the array. As we know the off-grid lifestyle is a more involved-with-the-world-around-us lifestyle, plus if we adjust the array and get a couple more KWhrs it just might mean we won't have to start.............THE GENERATOR. Timing of the tilt though....there are just too many other things on the list that have a nasty habit of jumping in front of "change tilt angle". Maybe that's why they make trackers. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 2/27/2017 11:10 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Wrenches, > > One of my clients sent me this article on seasonal array tilt angles: > http://www.solarpaneltilt.com/#2season > > It challenges some of the long-held numbers, although not > substantially, and I found it worth a review. > > I have long advocated adjustment twice a year, staying at latitude > tilt for nine months and latitude +15 for winter, presuming that for > most homes a latitude tilt will be adequate over the summer months > without a second pair of adjustments. I have long figured that the > fewer required maintenance operations the more they'll actually get > done. After reviewing this article I replied to the client who sent it > to me, whose home is at 7,000' at 35.5 ° latitude: > > Bill, > Thanks for this. I'll assume that you're welcoming my response, so > in short... > > For me as an advisor principally to off grid homeowners, I'll err > on the side of practicality, simplicity and ease of remembrance > over accuracy. That's why, for example, I recommend two angle > adjustments/year over four. Also, as Landau himself states, "A > difference of a few degrees will make very little difference in > the energy you gather". This information was of greater > consequence when PV was far more expensive than it is today. > > My original and purposely simplistic recommendation was to adjust > to latitude +15 for winter and back to latitude for the rest of > the year. I gave an approximate date around November 10th, (midway > between the fall equinox and the winter solstice) to increase the > tilt, with a return to latitude around February 10th (midway > between the winter solstice and the spring equinox). Extrapolating > using his calculations for 4X/year, I would adjust to winter angle > earlier (his target is October 7th), such as "during October" and > returning later (his target is March 5th), such as "late February > or early March". Using Landau's figures for 35°, that suggests > 32.0 for spring/summer/fall and 55.2 for winter, adding half a > degree or so for your location, with an unknown adjustment for the > higher elevation. > > Given your DP&W pole-top rack with its 10-degree adjustment > increments, this means only that we have no need to drill the > additional hole in the adjustment bar at 50 degrees. The supplied > holes at 35 and 55 are best. You'll want only to broaden the > duration of your winter tilt angle on both ends. > > Good exercise! I appreciate your sending this along, as I have > always worked from longtime collective-wisdom guidelines, having > never seen these calculations laid out with such accuracy. > > I'll be interested in any comments from other Wrenches who take the > time to review the link. > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Mar 1 09:54:28 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 09:54:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance Companies In-Reply-To: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> References: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> Message-ID: I researched the WRENCHES listerv and saw this was a topic @7 years ago. Does anyone know of companies that offer insurance to the solar electric/solar thermal installation industry. Please contact me off line if this is not a topic for general listserv discussion. Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Mar 1 10:27:52 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:27:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance Companies In-Reply-To: References: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> Message-ID: <001001d292a0$652c7240$2f8556c0$@glbcc.com> If you are a NABCEP certificant, ProSight offers an insurance discount on their policies. http://www.nabcep.org/for-certificants according to the NABCEP website and emails we receive... -Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of cwarfel Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 9:54 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance Companies I researched the WRENCHES listerv and saw this was a topic @7 years ago. Does anyone know of companies that offer insurance to the solar electric/solar thermal installation industry. Please contact me off line if this is not a topic for general listserv discussion. Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 2 17:25:46 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (RayBR) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:25:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: An interesting article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9453cbc1-e5fa-1552-358e-89c154da59f5@solarray.com> I sometimes play with various tilt angles in PV Watts for different locations too. The weather conditions at different times of year vary from location to location so I don't think there is a one size fits all solution here. Also, I don't think this article or PV Watts takes into account snow shed, which dictates steeper angles in winter. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 2/27/17 12:10 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Wrenches, > > One of my clients sent me this article on seasonal array tilt angles: > http://www.solarpaneltilt.com/#2season > > It challenges some of the long-held numbers, although not > substantially, and I found it worth a review. > > I have long advocated adjustment twice a year, staying at latitude > tilt for nine months and latitude +15 for winter, presuming that for > most homes a latitude tilt will be adequate over the summer months > without a second pair of adjustments. I have long figured that the > fewer required maintenance operations the more they'll actually get > done. After reviewing this article I replied to the client who sent it > to me, whose home is at 7,000' at 35.5 ° latitude: > > Bill, > Thanks for this. I'll assume that you're welcoming my response, so > in short... > > For me as an advisor principally to off grid homeowners, I'll err > on the side of practicality, simplicity and ease of remembrance > over accuracy. That's why, for example, I recommend two angle > adjustments/year over four. Also, as Landau himself states, "A > difference of a few degrees will make very little difference in > the energy you gather". This information was of greater > consequence when PV was far more expensive than it is today. > > My original and purposely simplistic recommendation was to adjust > to latitude +15 for winter and back to latitude for the rest of > the year. I gave an approximate date around November 10th, (midway > between the fall equinox and the winter solstice) to increase the > tilt, with a return to latitude around February 10th (midway > between the winter solstice and the spring equinox). Extrapolating > using his calculations for 4X/year, I would adjust to winter angle > earlier (his target is October 7th), such as "during October" and > returning later (his target is March 5th), such as "late February > or early March". Using Landau's figures for 35°, that suggests > 32.0 for spring/summer/fall and 55.2 for winter, adding half a > degree or so for your location, with an unknown adjustment for the > higher elevation. > > Given your DP&W pole-top rack with its 10-degree adjustment > increments, this means only that we have no need to drill the > additional hole in the adjustment bar at 50 degrees. The supplied > holes at 35 and 55 are best. You'll want only to broaden the > duration of your winter tilt angle on both ends. > > Good exercise! I appreciate your sending this along, as I have > always worked from longtime collective-wisdom guidelines, having > never seen these calculations laid out with such accuracy. > > I'll be interested in any comments from other Wrenches who take the > time to review the link. > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Thu Mar 2 19:19:38 2017 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 16:19:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid in Africa Message-ID: <981950C2-C14E-4C6A-9EE3-A97C2BE17D05@mendocinosolar.com> We have a friend who works in Sierra Leone, West Africa, and has a grant for an off-grid project. Can anyone hook her up with a person or organization that knows the ropes about how to best provide workable system design and equipment sourcing in that environment? Please reply off-list. Thanks, Bruce Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Fri Mar 3 14:14:02 2017 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (peter.parrish at calsolareng.com) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:14:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings In-Reply-To: <001001d292a0$652c7240$2f8556c0$@glbcc.com> References: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> <001001d292a0$652c7240$2f8556c0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <0MGxzI-1cXHid3kEk-00Dkl0@mrelay.perfora.net> Recently we were asked to do a combined inspection and engineering review of a 362.70 kWdc PV system using 5 Sungrow SG60KM-U inverters. We found issues like palm trees and air handling equipment shading significant parts of the arrays, electrician’s tape and palm fronds on the surface of the modules. But we also observed two significant Code violations: PV source conductors lying on the surface of the torch-down roof and lack of bushings at the connectors on the ends of 2” LFMC. The PV source conductors got secured and we saw bushings threaded onto the ends LFMC connectors. Upon close inspection we discovered that the bushings had been broken at one point on their circumference, no doubt to simplify their attachment. Their were 11 PV source circuits (22 current-carrying 10 AWG PV Wire conductors.) Is this a NEC Code violation? If so, what section would we cite? It seems obvious that the bushing had been “modified”, but I would like to be more specific. Or does it come under the workmanship category? Regards, - Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 Peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Mar 4 03:08:25 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 00:08:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings In-Reply-To: <0MGxzI-1cXHid3kEk-00Dkl0@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> <001001d292a0$652c7240$2f8556c0$@glbcc.com> <0MGxzI-1cXHid3kEk-00Dkl0@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: Peter: Would these work? http://www.garvinindustries.com/conduit-fittings-supports/rigid-conduit-fittings/split-grounding-bushings/sgb50?gclid=CI7R876yvNICFQmIfgodVAkI3g William > On Mar 3, 2017, at 11:14 AM, wrote: > > Recently we were asked to do a combined inspection and engineering review of a 362.70 kWdc PV system using 5 Sungrow SG60KM-U inverters. We found issues like palm trees and air handling equipment shading significant parts of the arrays, electrician’s tape and palm fronds on the surface of the modules. But we also observed two significant Code violations: PV source conductors lying on the surface of the torch-down roof and lack of bushings at the connectors on the ends of 2” LFMC. The PV source conductors got secured and we saw bushings threaded onto the ends LFMC connectors. > > Upon close inspection we discovered that the bushings had been broken at one point on their circumference, no doubt to simplify their attachment. Their were 11 PV source circuits (22 current-carrying 10 AWG PV Wire conductors.) > > Is this a NEC Code violation? If so, what section would we cite? It seems obvious that the bushing had been “modified”, but I would like to be more specific. Or does it come under the workmanship category? > > Regards, > > Peter Parrish > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President > SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > Peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Mar 4 11:07:22 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 11:07:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings In-Reply-To: <0MGxzI-1cXHid3kEk-00Dkl0@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> <001001d292a0$652c7240$2f8556c0$@glbcc.com> <0MGxzI-1cXHid3kEk-00Dkl0@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <002001d29501$693bac30$3bb30490$@glbcc.com> Just got to my code book. So 300.4(G) says it is the size of the conductor (4AWG), not the quantity that triggers the requirement for some type of insulated fitting for conductor protection, so I see no violation there. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 2:14 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings Recently we were asked to do a combined inspection and engineering review of a 362.70 kWdc PV system using 5 Sungrow SG60KM-U inverters. We found issues like palm trees and air handling equipment shading significant parts of the arrays, electrician’s tape and palm fronds on the surface of the modules. But we also observed two significant Code violations: PV source conductors lying on the surface of the torch-down roof and lack of bushings at the connectors on the ends of 2” LFMC. The PV source conductors got secured and we saw bushings threaded onto the ends LFMC connectors. Upon close inspection we discovered that the bushings had been broken at one point on their circumference, no doubt to simplify their attachment. Their were 11 PV source circuits (22 current-carrying 10 AWG PV Wire conductors.) Is this a NEC Code violation? If so, what section would we cite? It seems obvious that the bushing had been “modified”, but I would like to be more specific. Or does it come under the workmanship category? Regards, * Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 Peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Mar 4 07:22:09 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 07:22:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings In-Reply-To: <0MGxzI-1cXHid3kEk-00Dkl0@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> <001001d292a0$652c7240$2f8556c0$@glbcc.com> <0MGxzI-1cXHid3kEk-00Dkl0@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <20170304122243.789D810405@che.dreamhost.com> Well, to start it is a 110.3(B) violation to cut the bushings as you describe and install them. -----Original Message----- From: "peter.parrish at calsolareng.com" Sent: ‎3/‎3/‎2017 14:14 To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings Recently we were asked to do a combined inspection and engineering review of a 362.70 kWdc PV system using 5 Sungrow SG60KM-U inverters. We found issues like palm trees and air handling equipment shading significant parts of the arrays, electrician’s tape and palm fronds on the surface of the modules. But we also observed two significant Code violations: PV source conductors lying on the surface of the torch-down roof and lack of bushings at the connectors on the ends of 2” LFMC. The PV source conductors got secured and we saw bushings threaded onto the ends LFMC connectors. Upon close inspection we discovered that the bushings had been broken at one point on their circumference, no doubt to simplify their attachment. Their were 11 PV source circuits (22 current-carrying 10 AWG PV Wire conductors.) Is this a NEC Code violation? If so, what section would we cite? It seems obvious that the bushing had been “modified”, but I would like to be more specific. Or does it come under the workmanship category? Regards, - Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 Peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Mon Mar 6 20:15:11 2017 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 01:15:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar Sure Sine On/Off switch Message-ID: Does anyone have a source or a solution for a NC (normally closed) button that could be used for the Morningstar inverters? Other than cheap plastic ones, all that we can seem to find are NO. Thanks, Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Mar 7 12:57:03 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 12:57:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Net Metering Message-ID: <20170307175709.456EA102A9@che.dreamhost.com> Home Power Magazine wrote that Hawaii had ended its net metering program https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/net-metering-beyond. Does this mean that existing customers with net metering contracts are unable to use their grid tied PV systems? How does it work when a state or utility ends net metering? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Mar 7 13:57:55 2017 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 13:57:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings In-Reply-To: References: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> <001001d292a0$652c7240$2f8556c0$@glbcc.com> <0MGxzI-1cXHid3kEk-00Dkl0@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <002401d29774$bbef2c20$33cd8460$@icloud.com> Peter, Bridgeport makes both split ring grounding bushings and plastic bushings in that size. No threading on to the connector required. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2017 3:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings Peter: Would these work? http://www.garvinindustries.com/conduit-fittings-supports/rigid-conduit-fittings/split-grounding-bushings/sgb50?gclid=CI7R876yvNICFQmIfgodVAkI3g William On Mar 3, 2017, at 11:14 AM, wrote: Recently we were asked to do a combined inspection and engineering review of a 362.70 kWdc PV system using 5 Sungrow SG60KM-U inverters. We found issues like palm trees and air handling equipment shading significant parts of the arrays, electrician’s tape and palm fronds on the surface of the modules. But we also observed two significant Code violations: PV source conductors lying on the surface of the torch-down roof and lack of bushings at the connectors on the ends of 2” LFMC. The PV source conductors got secured and we saw bushings threaded onto the ends LFMC connectors. Upon close inspection we discovered that the bushings had been broken at one point on their circumference, no doubt to simplify their attachment. Their were 11 PV source circuits (22 current-carrying 10 AWG PV Wire conductors.) Is this a NEC Code violation? If so, what section would we cite? It seems obvious that the bushing had been “modified”, but I would like to be more specific. Or does it come under the workmanship category? Regards, * Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 Peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Mar 7 13:02:23 2017 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:02:23 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Net Metering In-Reply-To: <20170307175709.456EA102A9@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170307175709.456EA102A9@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <008701d2976c$f9e60830$edb21890$@com> Aloha Drake. Yes, our PUC in its ultimate wisdom, ended our 14-year very successful (80,000+ customers) NEM program back in October 2015. That said, a lot of us are still installing NEM systems since the Hawaiian Electric companies have been (in my opinion) bending over backward to allow homeowners to get their conditionally approved NEM systems installed and operational. But that's coming to an end in the months to come. The PUC grandfathered all those NEM systems, so all of us lucky enough to have NEM golden tickets can still provide surplus PV power back to the grid and receive full retail credit. Right now we are the first state in the country (the freakin' bleeding edge) where new interconnect agreements (customer self supply or self consumption) do not allow for any export. Hence the need for batteries. Hence the dire state of our once thriving PV industry. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 7:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Net Metering Home Power Magazine wrote that Hawaii had ended its net metering program https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/net -metering-beyond . Does this mean that existing customers with net metering contracts are unable to use their grid tied PV systems? How does it work when a state or utility ends net metering? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _____ Image removed by sender. Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD116.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Mar 7 14:50:32 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:50:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings In-Reply-To: <002401d29774$bbef2c20$33cd8460$@icloud.com> References: <94cd39ca-07bc-fbb3-b90c-e44250cdc571@psln.com> <001001d292a0$652c7240$2f8556c0$@glbcc.com> <0MGxzI-1cXHid3kEk-00Dkl0@mrelay.perfora.net> <002401d29774$bbef2c20$33cd8460$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <1ec470095c779805a725b371a28c5c21@mail.gmail.com> If I understood Peter’s original email properly, he noted that the ground bushings had been “broken” to facilitate installation. If indeed regular ground bushings had been modified or cut then that would violate the correct installation methods. Here is a regular ground bushing: If they actually installed the split-type retrofit style bushings, such as the one below, then there shouldn’t be a problem: I would cite NEC 250.97 Bonding for Over 250 Volts (4) Listed fittings. A listed fitting must be used to bond the metal raceway. A modified or broken ground bushing is not a listed fitting. August August Goers Principal Luminalt m: 415.559.1525 o: 415.640.4000 august at luminalt.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander *Sent:* Tuesday, March 07, 2017 10:58 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings Peter, Bridgeport makes both split ring grounding bushings and plastic bushings in that size. No threading on to the connector required. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Saturday, March 04, 2017 3:08 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bushings Peter: Would these work? http://www.garvinindustries.com/conduit-fittings-supports/rigid-conduit-fittings/split-grounding-bushings/sgb50?gclid=CI7R876yvNICFQmIfgodVAkI3g William On Mar 3, 2017, at 11:14 AM, < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: Recently we were asked to do a combined inspection and engineering review of a 362.70 kWdc PV system using 5 Sungrow SG60KM-U inverters. We found issues like palm trees and air handling equipment shading significant parts of the arrays, electrician’s tape and palm fronds on the surface of the modules. But we also observed two significant Code violations: PV source conductors lying on the surface of the torch-down roof and lack of bushings at the connectors on the ends of 2” LFMC. The PV source conductors got secured and we saw bushings threaded onto the ends LFMC connectors. Upon close inspection we discovered that the bushings had been broken at one point on their circumference, no doubt to simplify their attachment. Their were 11 PV source circuits (22 current-carrying 10 AWG PV Wire conductors.) Is this a NEC Code violation? If so, what section would we cite? It seems obvious that the bushing had been “modified”, but I would like to be more specific. Or does it come under the workmanship category? Regards, - Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 Peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 9093 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 7053 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 16:09:21 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:09:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Net Metering In-Reply-To: <20170307175709.456EA102A9@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170307175709.456EA102A9@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hawaii is currently closed to new applications, existing approved and executed NEM's are still good for the time being but as we have seen in Cailfornia they are looking at swiching over to TOU which favors the utility in some to most cases. Jerry On Mar 7, 2017 7:57 AM, "Drake" wrote: > Home Power Magazine wrote that Hawaii had ended its net metering program > https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/ > design-installation/net-metering-beyond . Does this mean that existing > customers with net metering contracts are unable to use their grid tied PV > systems? How does it work when a state or utility ends net metering? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <(740)%20448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Mar 7 20:27:13 2017 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:27:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar Sure Sine On/Off switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Wayne, Any of the electrical industrial suppliers for controls will offer a push button with multiply options for contacts. Then you've got momentary or maintained contacts. So many options. Automation Direct, Idec, Omron, Allen-Bradly and Square D to name a few. Christopher On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:15 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > Does anyone have a source or a solution for a NC (normally closed) button > that could be used for the Morningstar inverters? > > Other than cheap plastic ones, all that we can seem to find are NO. > > > Thanks, > > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 <(352)%20377-6527> Office > 352 336-3299 <(352)%20336-3299> Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Mar 8 08:12:54 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 08:12:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Maine's Net Metering In-Reply-To: <008701d2976c$f9e60830$edb21890$@com> References: <20170307175709.456EA102A9@che.dreamhost.com> <008701d2976c$f9e60830$edb21890$@com> Message-ID: So this is where OUR wonderful PUC and our own, “Trump" like governor, got this foolish idea. Maine is NOT to far behind you…… NET metering, SEEYA! Ahh the race to the bottom has begun! > On Mar 7, 2017, at 1:02 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Aloha Drake. > > Yes, our PUC in its ultimate wisdom, ended our 14-year very successful (80,000+ customers) NEM program back in October 2015. That said, a lot of us are still installing NEM systems since the Hawaiian Electric companies have been (in my opinion) bending over backward to allow homeowners to get their conditionally approved NEM systems installed and operational. But that’s coming to an end in the months to come. > > The PUC grandfathered all those NEM systems, so all of us lucky enough to have NEM golden tickets can still provide surplus PV power back to the grid and receive full retail credit. > > Right now we are the first state in the country (the freakin’ bleeding edge) where new interconnect agreements (customer self supply or self consumption) do not allow for any export. Hence the need for batteries. > > Hence the dire state of our once thriving PV industry. > > marco > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 7:57 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Net Metering > > Home Power Magazine wrote that Hawaii had ended its net metering program https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/net-metering-beyond . Does this mean that existing customers with net metering contracts are unable to use their grid tied PV systems? How does it work when a state or utility ends net metering? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > > <~WRD116.jpg> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Wed Mar 8 12:55:26 2017 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:55:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island? Space is not an issue for this client. Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037 California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion > Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an > inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to > recommend them or warn against using them? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Mar 8 14:57:58 2017 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 14:57:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake, I just did my first Aquion Install on an off-grid second home. It is a 24V single VFX3524. 10 Aspen 24 volt stacks. No one has been living there since I installed it but at least the generator stopped running 2 or 3 times a day just to maintain the heating system. The generator hasn't run at all (since the first charge) the 10 days since we installed it. I am waiting for the owners to come up from NYC in early April to give it the test. It will get hit hard so we should know right away how it will respond. I have the system monitored on OpticsRE so we will be able to see what is happening. So far the batteries have stayed between 24.6 and 28.6. I, too, am anxious to see what happens when we are running with the inverter set for the lowest setting which I think is around 39 or 40 volts. It will be great to have the OpticsRE control to play around with the AGS settings to find the most efficient settings in regard to generator run time. Our #1 goal now is to minimize gen time. John Blittersdorf Solar Guru Rob Stubbins Solar On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island? Space is not an issue > for this client. > > Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation > Professional #IREC 10037 > California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > > UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider > > > On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > > We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would > take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at > such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. > Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that > low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. > > On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion >> Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an >> inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to >> recommend them or warn against using them? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Mar 8 16:13:29 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:13:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US w/ 20 stack on one and another site w/ the Aspen 48M w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per amp hour of storage sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK but one gets better performance from charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~ 42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are defiantly temperature sensitive, operating should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the SMA product, adds additional cost due to the required BM200 AND the Sunny Island Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which comes pre wired. (Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing module installed). It is quite helpful, if this is an off grid install due to the fact that the BM200 needs and when things go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be connected to the internet. This install also needs the correct firmware to be installed on the SI which when was delivered, the firmware would only load into the master then shut down the system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase. I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that must be my loads…. NOT. I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and require quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks. And there is definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI. My own system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC coupling” in this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These have buss bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake locations. AND are totally recyclable. Pictures of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available, contact me off line. TUMP > On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > > Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island? Space is not an issue for this client. > > Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037 > California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > > UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider > > > On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" > wrote: > We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. > > > On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" > wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to recommend them or warn against using them? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Mar 8 16:33:59 2017 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 14:33:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> Message-ID: Hi Tump, If you recall, this is EXACTLY what I was calling into question on this list back on November 11th, 2014 and again on Jan 29th, 2016. It looks like you have confirmed my suspicion. The battery can not possible provide the rated capacity. I hope others that have tested these batteries will also confirm this as it could be a very expensive mistake. Here’s my Jan 29th post: "Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD. And this: The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match the first chart I posted." Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 8, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Tump wrote: I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US w/ 20 stack on one and another site w/ the Aspen 48M w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per amp hour of storage sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK but one gets better performance from charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~ 42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are defiantly temperature sensitive, operating should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the SMA product, adds additional cost due to the required BM200 AND the Sunny Island Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which comes pre wired. (Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing module installed). It is quite helpful, if this is an off grid install due to the fact that the BM200 needs and when things go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be connected to the internet. This install also needs the correct firmware to be installed on the SI which when was delivered, the firmware would only load into the master then shut down the system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase. I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that must be my loads…. NOT. I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and require quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks. And there is definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI. My own system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC coupling” in this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These have buss bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake locations. AND are totally recyclable. Pictures of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available, contact me off line. TUMP > On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld > wrote: > > Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island? Space is not an issue for this client. > > Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037 > California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > > UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider > > > On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" > wrote: > We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. > > > On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" > wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to recommend them or warn against using them? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: egcjjhdh..png Type: image/png Size: 71704 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Mar 8 16:41:55 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:41:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion BANKRUPT Message-ID: <38D2A42B-45FD-4CCE-9077-D8EA8B834CC9@swnl.net> As of today at ~ 3PM Aquion has closed up shop! Another reason NOT to use them! > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Wed Mar 8 16:09:25 2017 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 14:09:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: FYI, Aquion just went BK . - Andrew "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 12:57 PM, John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Drake, > I just did my first Aquion Install on an off-grid second home. It is > a 24V single VFX3524. 10 Aspen 24 volt stacks. No one has been living > there since I installed it but at least the generator stopped running 2 or > 3 times a day just to maintain the heating system. The generator hasn't run > at all (since the first charge) the 10 days since we installed it. I am > waiting for the owners to come up from NYC in early April to give it the > test. It will get hit hard so we should know right away how it will > respond. I have the system monitored on OpticsRE so we will be able to see > what is happening. So far the batteries have stayed between 24.6 and > 28.6. I, too, am anxious to see what happens when we are running with the > inverter set for the lowest setting which I think is around 39 or 40 > volts. It will be great to have the OpticsRE control to play around with > the AGS settings to find the most efficient settings in regard to generator > run time. Our #1 goal now is to minimize gen time. > > John Blittersdorf > Solar Guru > Rob Stubbins Solar > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld > wrote: > >> Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island? Space is not an issue >> for this client. >> >> Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation >> Professional #IREC 10037 >> California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 >> Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation >> >> UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 >> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >> >> Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider >> >> >> On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: >> >> We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would >> take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at >> such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. >> Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that >> low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. >> >> On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion >>> Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an >>> inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to >>> recommend them or warn against using them? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >>> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 8 16:21:38 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:21:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> Message-ID: Wrenches: As a caution: The TL22 inverters have been discontinued. The TL40s have some limitations as compared to the TL22s, in my opinion. You may still find TL22s on the shelf. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Tump *Sent:* Wednesday, March 08, 2017 1:13 PM *To:* findsolar at herzfeld.org; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US w/ 20 stack on one and another site w/ the *Aspen 48M* w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per amp hour of storage sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK but one gets better performance from charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~ 42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are defiantly temperature sensitive, operating should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the SMA product, adds additional cost due to the required BM200 AND the Sunny Island Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which comes pre wired. (*Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing module installed). It is quite helpful, if this is an off grid install due to the fact that the BM200 needs and when things go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and help w/ configuration & **upgrades, to be connected to the internet. This install also needs the correct firmware to be installed on the SI which when was delivered, the firmware would only load into the master then shut down the system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase. * *I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that must be my loads…. NOT. * *I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and require quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks. And there is definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI.* *My own system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC coupling” in this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These have buss bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake locations. AND are totally **recyclable.* *Pictures of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available, contact me off line. TUMP * On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld wrote: Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island? Space is not an issue for this client. Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037 California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to recommend them or warn against using them? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328>*http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org *Tump at swnl.net * *www.SWNL.net* Solarwinds Northernlights * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* * 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 * *Blair "TUMP" May* * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Mar 9 08:47:02 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 08:47:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> Message-ID: <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> I was told by SMA tech support that the new SMA US 40s were compatible with AC coupling. I was provided with interface cards for the purpose. At 04:21 PM 3/8/2017, William Miller wrote: What are the limitations of the new SMA inverters? Drake >Wrenches: > >As a caution: The TL22 inverters have been >discontinued. The TL40s have some limitations >as compared to the TL22s, in my opinion. You >may still find TL22s on the shelf. > >William > > >Gradient Cap_mini > >Lic 773985 >millersolar.com >805-438-5600 > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump >Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 1:13 PM >To: findsolar at herzfeld.org; RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries > >I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US  >w/ 20 stack on one and another site w/ the >Aspen 48M w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost >per amp hour of storage  sucks w/ the Aquion >batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the >batteries, despite there size have very little >capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I have the SIs >set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK >but one gets better performance from  charging >w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~ >42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah >~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are defiantly >temperature sensitive, operating should be ~ >60*. The set up w/ the SMA product, adds >additional cost due to the required  BM200 AND > the Sunny Island Interface Device, and the >SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which >comes pre wired. (Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ >the sensing module installed). It is quite >helpful, if this is an off grid install due to >the fact that the BM200 needs and when things go >south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and >help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be >connected to the internet. This install also >needs the correct firmware to be installed on >the SI which when  was delivered, the firmware > would only load into the master then shut down >the system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate >units, load the firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase. >I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of >capacity and was told that must be my loads . NOT. > >I would suggest that despite their hype these > are quite expensive and require quite a bit > more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed > stacks. And there is definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI. >My own system and what I prefer to push IS the >SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure that you get >the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible >for “ AC coupling” in this configuration) >w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These >have buss bars, stack vertically , the >interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake >locations. AND are totally recyclable. >Pictures  of the SMA install & insights of >battery installation available, contact me off line. TUMP >  >On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld ><findsolar at herzfeld.org> wrote: > >Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny >Island? Space is not an issue for this client. >Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ >for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037 >California Solaar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 >Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > >UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 >CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > >Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider >   > >On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" ><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: >We had a customer request them but once we found >out how many it would take, he decided on the >deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's >at such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter >due to the higher current. Some of our other >product lines don't even reccomend aquions due >to that low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. > >On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Hello Wrenches, > >I have a client who is going to take the plunge >and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. They look >pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well >an inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. >Does anyone have experience to recommend them or warn against using them? > >Thanks, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >Tump at swnl.net >        >www.SWNL.net >          Solarwinds Northernlights       >    Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >             >207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401       >                       >                Blair "TUMP" May >        ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >                   > NABCEP   "Certified PV Installer" >   >            ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >                 Trace Xantrex >"Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > > >Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" >Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" >Content-ID: >X-Attachment-Id: d32b0196b0d3a567_0.1 > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 28a7dc11.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Mar 10 06:45:41 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 06:45:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling In-Reply-To: <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Well my supplier was not aware of any additional part# for this purpose. Nor was their anything in their manual stating compatibility. Part# PLEASE, It does seem short sighted of the company who pioneered AC Coupling to no longer provide us w/ equipment for said ACC. > On Mar 9, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Drake wrote: > > I was told by SMA tech support that the new SMA US 40s were compatible with AC coupling. I was provided with interface cards for the purpose. > > At 04:21 PM 3/8/2017, William Miller wrote: > > What are the limitations of the new SMA inverters? > > Drake > > >> Wrenches: >>  >> As a caution: The TL22 inverters have been discontinued. The TL40s have some limitations as compared to the TL22s, in my opinion. You may still find TL22s on the shelf. >>  >> William >>  >>  >> <28a7dc11.jpg> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >>  >> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Tump >> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 1:13 PM >> To: findsolar at herzfeld.org ; RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries >>  >> I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US  w/ 20 stack on one and another site w/ the Aspen 48M w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per amp hour of storage  sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK but one gets better performance from  charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~ 42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are defiantly temperature sensitive, operating should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the SMA product, adds additional cost due to the required  BM200 AND  the Sunny Island Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which comes pre wired. (Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing module installed). It is quite helpful, if this is an off grid install due to the fact that the BM200 needs and when things go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be connected to the internet. This install also needs the correct firmware to be installed on the SI which when  was delivered, the firmware  would only load into the master then shut down the system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase. >> I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that must be my loads >> . NOT. >> >I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and require quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks. And there is definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI. >> My own system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC coupling” in this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These have buss bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake locations. AND are totally recyclable. >> Pictures  of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available, contact me off line. TUMP >>   >> On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld > wrote: >>  >> Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island? Space is not an issue for this client. >> Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037 >> California Solaar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 >> Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation >> >> UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 >> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >> >> Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider >>    >>  >> On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" > wrote: >> We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. >>  >> On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to recommend them or warn against using them? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >>  >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>  >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>  >> Tump at swnl.net          www.SWNL.net >>           Solarwinds Northernlights       >>     Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>              207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401                              >>                 Blair "TUMP" May >>         ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>                     NABCEP   "Certified PV Installer" >>    >>             ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>                  Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>  >> >>  >>  >> Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" >> Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" >> Content-ID: >> X-Attachment-Id: d32b0196b0d3a567_0.1 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Mar 10 09:12:52 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:12:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> I talked to SMA tech support. They said the 5.0 and 6.0 models were compatible with AC coupling. AEE supplied the SI 485PB NR Piggyback card with RJ 45 cable. At 06:45 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: >Well my supplier was not aware of any additional >part# for this purpose. Nor was their anything >in their manual stating compatibility. >Part# PLEASE, It does seem short sighted of the >company who pioneered AC Coupling to no longer >provide us w/ equipment for said ACC. >>On Mar 9, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Drake >><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >>wrote: >> >>I was told by SMA tech support that the new SMA >>US 40s were compatible with AC coupling. I was >>provided with interface cards for the purpose. >> >>At 04:21 PM 3/8/2017, William Miller wrote: >> >>What are the limitations of the new SMA inverters? >> >>Drake >> >> >>>Wrenches: >>> >>>As a caution: The TL22 inverters have been >>>discontinued. The TL40s have some >>>limitations as compared to the TL22s, in my >>>opinion. You may still find TL22s on the shelf. >>> >>>William >>> >>> >>><28a7dc11.jpg> >>>Lic 773985 >>>millersolar.com >>>805-438-5600 >>> >>>From: RE-wrenches [ >>>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump >>>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 1:13 PM >>>To: findsolar at herzfeld.org; RE-wrenches >>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries >>> >>>I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US >>> w/ 20 stack on one and another site w/ the >>>Aspen 48M w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost >>>per amp hour of storage  sucks w/ the Aquion >>>batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the >>>batteries, despite there size have very little >>>capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I have the >>>SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the >>>stacks OK but one gets better performance from >>> charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M >>>is ~ 42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII >>>2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are >>>defiantly temperature sensitive, operating >>>should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the SMA >>>product, adds additional cost due to the >>>required  BM200 AND  the Sunny Island >>>Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you are >>>buying theAspen48M which comes pre wired. >>>(Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing >>>module installed). It is quite helpful, if >>>this is an off grid install due to the fact >>>that the BM200 needs and when things go south >>>Aquion can toggle the unit off site and help >>>w/ configuration & upgrades, to be connected >>>to the internet. This install also needs the >>>correct firmware to be installed on the SI >>>which when  was delivered, the firmware  >>>would only load into the master then shut down >>>the system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate >>>units, load the firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase. >>>I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of >>>capacity and was told that must be my loads . NOT. >>> >I would suggest that despite their hype >>> these are quite expensive and require quite a >>> bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un >>> sensed stacks. And there is definitely a >>> learning curve if you are using the SI. >>>My own system and what I prefer to push IS the >>>SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure that you get >>>the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible >>>for “ AC coupling” in this configuration) >>>w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These >>>have buss bars, stack vertically , the >>>interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake >>>locations. AND are totally recyclable. >>>Pictures  of the SMA install & insights of >>>battery installation available, contact me off line. TUMP >>>  >>>On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld >>><findsolar at herzfeld.org > wrote: >>> >>>Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny >>>Island? Space is not an issue for this client. >>>Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer >>>™ for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037 >>>California Solaar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 >>>Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation >>>UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >>>OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 >>>CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >>>Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider >>>   >>> >>>On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" >>><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com > wrote: >>>We had a customer request them but once we >>>found out how many it would take, he decided >>>on the deka unigee instead. l dont like >>>running my OB's at such a low voltage as they >>>seem to get hotter due to the higher current. >>>Some of our other product lines don't even >>>reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, >>>suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. >>> >>>On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" >>>< >>>drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>Hello Wrenches, >>>I have a client who is going to take the >>>plunge and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. They >>>look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure >>>how well an inverter would function at the 40 >>>V minimum. Does anyone have experience to >>>recommend them or warn against using them? >>>Thanks, >>>Drake >>>Drake Chamberlin >>>Athens Electric LLC >>>OH License 44810 >>>CO License 3773 >>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>740-448-7328 >>>http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>>Tump at swnl.net >>>        >>>www.SWNL.net >>> >>>          Solarwinds Northernlights       >>>    Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>>             >>>207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401      >>>                        >>>                Blair "TUMP" May >>>        ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>                   >>> NABCEP   "Certified PV Installer" >>>   >>>            ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>                 Trace >>>Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" >>>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" >>>Content-ID: >>>X-Attachment-Id: d32b0196b0d3a567_0.1 >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >>---------- >> >>Avast logo >> >> >> >>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>www.avast.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>Tump at swnl.net >>www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 10:36:14 2017 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 07:36:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling In-Reply-To: <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for the -40 inverters. What this means is that you can set them up to be permanently in off grid mode where the SB will follow the frequency shift of the SI, ok for an off grid system. But for grid tie with backup, the SB will not communicate with the SI and will not change the SB to off grid mode. It will still work like other generic AC coupled systems where the frequency shift will cause the SB inverter to drop off line, but as far as I know no throttling back will happen. Brad On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 6:12 AM, Drake wrote: > I talked to SMA tech support. They said the 5.0 and 6.0 models were > compatible with AC coupling. AEE supplied the SI 485PB NR Piggyback card > with RJ 45 cable. > > At 06:45 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: > > Well my supplier was not aware of any additional part# for this purpose. > Nor was their anything in their manual stating compatibility. > Part# PLEASE, It does seem short sighted of the company who pioneered AC > Coupling to no longer provide us w/ equipment for said ACC. > > On Mar 9, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> > wrote: > > I was told by SMA tech support that the new SMA US 40s were compatible > with AC coupling. I was provided with interface cards for the purpose. > > At 04:21 PM 3/8/2017, William Miller wrote: > > What are the limitations of the new SMA inverters? > > Drake > > > Wrenches: >  > As a caution: The TL22 inverters have been discontinued. The TL40s > have some limitations as compared to the TL22s, in my opinion. You may > still find TL22s on the shelf. >  > William >  >  > <28a7dc11.jpg> > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> >  > *From:* RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Tump > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 08, 2017 1:13 PM > *To:* findsolar at herzfeld.org; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries >  > I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US  w/ 20 stack on one and > another site w/ the *Aspen 48M* w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per > amp hour of storage  sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I > feel, that the batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The > “30†%DOD, that I have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the > stacks OK but one gets better performance from  charging w/slower solar > source. The Aspen48M is ~ 42X28X42†@563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ > 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are defiantly temperature sensitive, operating > should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the SMA product, adds additional cost due to > the required  BM200 AND  the Sunny Island Interface Device, and the SM100 > unless you are buying theAspen48M which comes pre wired. ( > > > > > *Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing module installed). It is > quite helpful, if this is an off grid install due to the fact that the > BM200 needs and when things go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site > and help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be connected to the internet. > This install also needs the correct firmware to be installed on the SI > which when  was delivered, the firmware  would only load into the master > then shut down the system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load > the firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase. I have spoken to the > manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that must be my loads…. NOT. > >I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and > require quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks. > And there is definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI. My own > system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure > that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC > coupling†in this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) > These have buss bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is > perfect for earthquake locations. AND are totally recyclable. Pictures  > of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available, contact > me off line. TUMP   * On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld < > findsolar at herzfeld.org > wrote:  Has anyone worked with them with a > Sunny Island? Space is not an issue for this client. Martin Herzfeld, > IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation Professional #IREC > 10037 California Solaar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, > C-7 Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction > Trainer #C0068034 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) > #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider     On Jul 20, > 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: We had a > customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, he > decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a > low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of > our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low > voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.  On Jul 20, 2016 > 10:52 AM, "Drake" < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: Hello > Wrenches, > I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion > Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an > inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to > recommend them or warn against using them? > Thanks, > Drake > Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP > Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/  > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ > options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ > options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ > options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > >  Tump at swnl.net         www.SWNL.net         >   Solarwinds Northernlights           Serving Mid Coast > Maine & Northern California              > 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401                     >                          Blair > "TUMP" May         ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********   >                   NABCEP   "Certified PV > Installer"                ******** MAINE'S CHARTER > ********                  Trace Xantrex "Certified" > Dealer / Installer"  > >  >  > Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" > Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" > Content-ID: > X-Attachment-Id: d32b0196b0d3a567_0.1 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > * Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > > > > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 <(207)%20832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <(610)%20517-8401> > Blair "TUMP" May * > > > > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S > CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / > Installer" * > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 10 12:45:48 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:45:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Friends: There were some changes made in the 40 series inverter that I don’t believe are great ideas. See: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/SMA_40_Series/Whats_wrong_with_40_Series.html William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bradley Bassett *Sent:* Friday, March 10, 2017 7:36 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for the -40 inverters. What this means is that you can set them up to be permanently in off grid mode where the SB will follow the frequency shift of the SI, ok for an off grid system. But for grid tie with backup, the SB will not communicate with the SI and will not change the SB to off grid mode. It will still work like other generic AC coupled systems where the frequency shift will cause the SB inverter to drop off line, but as far as I know no throttling back will happen. Brad On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 6:12 AM, Drake wrote: I talked to SMA tech support. They said the 5.0 and 6.0 models were compatible with AC coupling. AEE supplied the SI 485PB NR Piggyback card with RJ 45 cable. At 06:45 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: Well my supplier was not aware of any additional part# for this purpose. Nor was their anything in their manual stating compatibility. Part# PLEASE, It does seem short sighted of the company who pioneered AC Coupling to no longer provide us w/ equipment for said ACC. On Mar 9, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: I was told by SMA tech support that the new SMA US 40s were compatible with AC coupling. I was provided with interface cards for the purpose. At 04:21 PM 3/8/2017, William Miller wrote: What are the limitations of the new SMA inverters? Drake Wrenches:  As a caution: The TL22 inverters have been discontinued. The TL40s have some limitations as compared to the TL22s, in my opinion. You may still find TL22s on the shelf.  William   <28a7dc11.jpg> Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600>  *From:* RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Tump *Sent:* Wednesday, March 08, 2017 1:13 PM *To:* findsolar at herzfeld.org; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries  I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US  w/ 20 stack on one and another site w/ the *Aspen 48M* w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per amp hour of storage  sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The “30†%DOD, that I have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK but one gets better performance from  charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~ 42X28X42†@563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are defiantly temperature sensitive, operating should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the SMA product, adds additional cost due to the required  BM200 AND  the Sunny Island Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which comes pre wired. ( *Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing module installed). It is quite helpful, if this is an off grid install due to the fact that the BM200 needs and when things go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be connected to the internet. This install also needs the correct firmware to be installed on the SI which when  was delivered, the firmware  would only load into the master then shut down the system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase. I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that must be my loads…. NOT. >I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and require quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks. And there is definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI.My own system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC coupling†in this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These have buss bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake locations. AND are totally recyclable.Pictures  of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available, contact me off line. TUMP   * On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld wrote:  Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island? Space is not an issue for this client. Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037 California Solaar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider     On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.  On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to recommend them or warn against using them? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org  Tump at swnl.net         www.SWNL.net           Solarwinds Northernlights           Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California              207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401                                              Blair "TUMP" May         ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********                     NABCEP   "Certified PV Installer"                ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********                  Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"    Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" Content-ID: X-Attachment-Id: d32b0196b0d3a567_0.1 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org *Tump at swnl.net * *www.SWNL.net* Solarwinds Northernlights * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 <(207)%20832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 <(610)%20517-8401> Blair "TUMP" May* * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 20:43:21 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:43:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: HI All, I hesitate to bring this up, but I’ve had some questions come my way about the “new” Tesla 2.0 battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like Lithium and LA are pretty much the only games in town. I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty much nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by google search. Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? For example. what inverter is being used? how do they stack? battery chemistry? actual size ( depending on which info it changes) are they actually shipping? Thanks jay peltz power From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 11:51:37 2017 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 12:51:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Don't ignore Sonnen, their ECO16 is a solid Lithium based solution. We installed one in Anguilla and, once we got through some software issues, the system performed solidly. On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:43 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I hesitate to bring this up, but I’ve had some questions come my way about > the “new” Tesla 2.0 > battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like Lithium > and LA are pretty much the only games in town. > > I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty much > nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by google search. > > Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? > For example. > what inverter is being used? > how do they stack? > battery chemistry? > actual size ( depending on which info it changes) > are they actually shipping? > > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 11 18:57:14 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 16:57:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alpha Solaris 3500 xp Message-ID: <257cd448-82c3-c3fb-bdbd-b6d36e2e25e5@solarray.com> Greetings Wrenches; I have recently decommissioned a 2007(?) Alpha Solaris 3500 XP grid tied battery backup system. The batteries were cooked and the whole unit was off line. The customer was no longer interested in the recurring costs of backup, so we elected to rewire the array for higher voltage and add a GT only inverter for about the cost of battery replacement. My question: Is this unit worth reusing as a UPS or off grid inverter? I don't think GTB is feasible again as I doubt this meets the latest UL1741, and the PV control is not even MPPT. I might reuse the enclosure for batteries, and pull the inverter out for someone else's discount 48 v Craig's list experiment. Does anyone have a manual for it? I know Alpha purchased Outback Power, but there is no mention of the Solaris in a search of the various Alpha Group websites. Anyone interested on a great deal on this thing can contact me off list. As always, thanks in advance for all of your knowledgeable replies, -- R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 From bob at midnitesolar.com Sat Mar 11 15:24:50 2017 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 12:24:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Tesla just announced that they were only going to be making the AC=20 battery, which is what you are talking about here. No DC only battery. They are making their own inverter from what I understand. There is also a rumor that NFPA is going to limit Lithium batteries to 2=20 kW in or on a residential building. But that might be all smoke because you couldn't park your Tesla car in=20 your garage. Lead Acid rules !! boB On 3/11/2017 8:51 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > Don't ignore Sonnen, their ECO16 is a solid Lithium based solution. We=20 > installed one in Anguilla and, once we got through some software=20 > issues, the system performed solidly. > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:43 PM, jay > wrote: > > HI All, > > I hesitate to bring this up, but I=E2=80=99ve had some questions come= my > way about the =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D Tesla 2.0 > battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like > Lithium and LA are pretty much the only games in town. > > I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty > much nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by > google search. > > Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? > For example. > what inverter is being used? > how do they stack? > battery chemistry? > actual size ( depending on which info it changes) > are they actually shipping? > > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > --=20 > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer=E2=84=A2 > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 17:41:19 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 15:41:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I agree on checking into Sonnen, as they are using regular Outback Radians and the high<>low voltage conversion electronics are built into the unit. The main complaints I have heard so far is that it's a really crowded compartment in which you have to do your wiring. You might also look into the Iron Edison Lithium-Iron packs; lots of success stories, and they can scale up far bigger than Tesla....took a couple of my classes on field trips there last week. 225kWh battery backup for a mansion in California, big cell repeater towers in Canada, big houseboat on Lake Powell.....the technology is safer than the Li-ion in Tesla/Sonnen, it vents steam instead of flames and toxic chemicals if everything goes south. Accessible and easy to wire, including the BMS computers. China is banking on Li-Fe instead of Li-ion with their massive push to solar, wind and utility-scale storage. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > Don't ignore Sonnen, their ECO16 is a solid Lithium based solution. We > installed one in Anguilla and, once we got through some software issues, > the system performed solidly. > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:43 PM, jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I hesitate to bring this up, but I’ve had some questions come my way >> about the “new” Tesla 2.0 >> battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like Lithium >> and LA are pretty much the only games in town. >> >> I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty much >> nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by google search. >> >> Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? >> For example. >> what inverter is being used? >> how do they stack? >> battery chemistry? >> actual size ( depending on which info it changes) >> are they actually shipping? >> >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> > 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 11 16:06:29 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 14:06:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <9e519c62-44cd-5978-fa42-961832371af6@solarray.com> Simpliphi is another Li+ that is very much worth looking at too. It=20 comes in nominal voltages that are usable (unlike Tesla) such as 12 v,=20 24v, and 48 v. It is also rated to 10,000 cycles to 80% DOD, which=20 actually could outlast the rest of the system. It is Lithium Iron=20 phosphate which is heavier than the Tesla, but not prone to thermal=20 runaway. I haven't tried them yet, so I'm just in study mode. The=20 voltage stability as the battery discharges is very attractive. Even at=20 high discharge rates, it holds above nominal voltage to 90% DOD. My problem is I have not been able to figure out how much we can under=20 size these relative to their lead acid counterparts. Being that they=20 have better capacity at high discharge rates, are less temperature=20 sensitive, can't freeze, and can be discharged 100%, I'm guessing we can=20 downsize them by about half, but I think it would really depend on the=20 application. Anyone that is using Li+ (like Larry Crutcher) want to chime in on=20 sizing of Li+ battery banks compared to lead acid? Downsizing is the=20 only way we could possibly start making these affordable. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 3/11/17 9:51 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > Don't ignore Sonnen, their ECO16 is a solid Lithium based solution. We=20 > installed one in Anguilla and, once we got through some software=20 > issues, the system performed solidly. > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:43 PM, jay > wrote: > > HI All, > > I hesitate to bring this up, but I=E2=80=99ve had some questions come= my > way about the =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D Tesla 2.0 > battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like > Lithium and LA are pretty much the only games in town. > > I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty > much nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by > google search. > > Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? > For example. > what inverter is being used? > how do they stack? > battery chemistry? > actual size ( depending on which info it changes) > are they actually shipping? > > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > --=20 > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer=E2=84=A2 > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 19:06:32 2017 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:06:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have the same questions as Jay, I would really like to see the real specs for the Tesla 2.0. Other questions I have: -How will the Tesla 2.0 be installed in coordination with a PV system - I can only assume any PV system would have to be AC coupled with the Tesla? -Does the Tesla inverter handle all grid-sell functionality and keep PV inverter online during outage? -How does this impact the SolarEdge Storedge system that was designed to work with the Gen 1 Tesla that didn't have an inverter? The Storedge factsheet does not match the new topology: http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se_storedge_inverter_datasheet_na.pdf Thanks for any insight! Rebekah On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > Don't ignore Sonnen, their ECO16 is a solid Lithium based solution. We > installed one in Anguilla and, once we got through some software issues, > the system performed solidly. > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:43 PM, jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I hesitate to bring this up, but I’ve had some questions come my way >> about the “new” Tesla 2.0 >> battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like Lithium >> and LA are pretty much the only games in town. >> >> I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty much >> nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by google search. >> >> Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? >> For example. >> what inverter is being used? >> how do they stack? >> battery chemistry? >> actual size ( depending on which info it changes) >> are they actually shipping? >> >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Mar 12 00:30:30 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 21:30:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: <9e519c62-44cd-5978-fa42-961832371af6@solarray.com> References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> <9e519c62-44cd-5978-fa42-961832371af6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <87cd1d8b-c1e9-1170-6c34-4f33a029aaff@psln.com> Am I missing something? We all know of a couple notable L-ion related=20 issues such as the Samsung cell batteries and there were 3-4 Boeing 767=20 batteries that flamed out but these are relatively isolated incidents=20 compared to the hundreds of millions of L-ion batteries of that same=20 chemistry out there that are working fine. I have had and have heard a number of reports on this list=20 of various levels of severity of thermal run-a-ways of LA batts, some=20 pretty nasty. There are all sorts of protection for worst case=20 scenarios integrated in cars, houses, woodstoves, water heaters, the=20 list goes on. Somehow we have managed to survive the fact that there=20 are some 300 million cars driving around with tanks of gasoline strapped=20 to our cars. I suspect L-ion batteries in electric cars are here for=20 awhile. There have been very few fires in the hundreds of thousands of=20 electric cars on the road. Last I checked, the stats were better than=20 fires from cars with gas tanks. Of course the electric car battery has=20 to be light. Lithium iron would never work for mobile apps. As time=20 goes on, the industry will make L-ion batteries even safer. Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 3/11/2017 1:06 PM, Ray wrote: > > Simpliphi is another Li+ that is very much worth looking at too. It=20 > comes in nominal voltages that are usable (unlike Tesla) such as 12 v,=20 > 24v, and 48 v. It is also rated to 10,000 cycles to 80% DOD, which=20 > actually could outlast the rest of the system. It is Lithium Iron=20 > phosphate which is heavier than the Tesla, but not prone to thermal=20 > runaway. I haven't tried them yet, so I'm just in study mode. The=20 > voltage stability as the battery discharges is very attractive. Even=20 > at high discharge rates, it holds above nominal voltage to 90% DOD. > > My problem is I have not been able to figure out how much we can under=20 > size these relative to their lead acid counterparts. Being that they=20 > have better capacity at high discharge rates, are less temperature=20 > sensitive, can't freeze, and can be discharged 100%, I'm guessing we=20 > can downsize them by about half, but I think it would really depend on=20 > the application. > Anyone that is using Li+ (like Larry Crutcher) want to chime in on=20 > sizing of Li+ battery banks compared to lead acid? Downsizing is the=20 > only way we could possibly start making these affordable. > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado > 303 505-8760 > On 3/11/17 9:51 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >> Don't ignore Sonnen, their ECO16 is a solid Lithium based solution.=20 >> We installed one in Anguilla and, once we got through some software=20 >> issues, the system performed solidly. >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:43 PM, jay > > wrote: >> >> HI All, >> >> I hesitate to bring this up, but I=E2=80=99ve had some questions com= e my >> way about the =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D Tesla 2.0 >> battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like >> Lithium and LA are pretty much the only games in town. >> >> I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty >> much nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by >> google search. >> >> Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? >> For example. >> what inverter is being used? >> how do they stack? >> battery chemistry? >> actual size ( depending on which info it changes) >> are they actually shipping? >> >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli= st.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> --=20 >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer=E2=84=A2 >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --=20 Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Sat Mar 11 21:09:57 2017 From: max at seesolar.com (max at seesolar.com) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 02:09:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <1631765337.3809505.1489284597258@mail.yahoo.com> We've put in about 8 Litium Ion Phosphate systems in the last year, the problems were with the protection control systems. They were custom designed battery banks, the largest being 64Kwh with a 27 Kw solar system. We have used the Schneider inverters with good performance on most, problems that had to be worked through on some, with the battery banks, not the inverters. Were taking a hard look at the new Sony batteries. May use them on the next one. I too like the looks of the Simpliphi technology, but cost is a factor. will probably go with Gexpro Power IQ.....  Max BalchowskyDesign EngineerSolar Electric Energy Systems 1048 Irvine Ave, #217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Rebekah Hren To: RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 I have the same questions as Jay, I would really like to see the real specs for the Tesla 2.0.  Other questions I have: -How will the Tesla 2.0 be installed in coordination with a PV system -  I can only assume any PV system would have to be AC coupled with the Tesla?  -Does the Tesla inverter handle all grid-sell functionality and keep PV inverter online during outage?  -How does this impact the SolarEdge Storedge system that was designed to work with the Gen 1 Tesla that didn't have an inverter? The Storedge factsheet does not match the new topology:  http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se_storedge_inverter_datasheet_na.pdf Thanks for any insight!Rebekah On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Chris Mason wrote: Don't ignore Sonnen, their ECO16 is a solid Lithium based solution. We installed one in Anguilla and, once we got through some software issues, the system performed solidly. On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:43 PM, jay wrote: HI All, I hesitate to bring this up, but I’ve had some questions come my way about the “new” Tesla 2.0 battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like Lithium and LA are pretty much the only games in town. I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty much nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by google search. Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? For example. what inverter is being used? how do they stack? battery chemistry? actual size ( depending on which info it changes) are they actually shipping? Thanks jay peltz power ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/o ptions.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wren ches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or g/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris MasonNABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™Solar Design EngineerGenerac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com264.235.5670869.662.5670Skype: netconcepts ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun Mar 12 22:29:07 2017 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:29:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alpha Solaris 3500 xp In-Reply-To: <257cd448-82c3-c3fb-bdbd-b6d36e2e25e5@solarray.com> References: <257cd448-82c3-c3fb-bdbd-b6d36e2e25e5@solarray.com> Message-ID: Here's the spec sheet. I don't have a manual. If the inverter still works it might make a decent smaller off grid system. If not another inverter and charge control could be installed into the cabinet. Brad On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Ray wrote: > Greetings Wrenches; > > I have recently decommissioned a 2007(?) Alpha Solaris 3500 XP grid tied > battery backup system. The batteries were cooked and the whole unit was > off line. The customer was no longer interested in the recurring costs of > backup, so we elected to rewire the array for higher voltage and add a GT > only inverter for about the cost of battery replacement. > > My question: Is this unit worth reusing as a UPS or off grid inverter? I > don't think GTB is feasible again as I doubt this meets the latest UL1741, > and the PV control is not even MPPT. I might reuse the enclosure for > batteries, and pull the inverter out for someone else's discount 48 v > Craig's list experiment. > > Does anyone have a manual for it? I know Alpha purchased Outback Power, > but there is no mention of the Solaris in a search of the various Alpha > Group websites. Anyone interested on a great deal on this thing can contact > me off list. > > As always, thanks in advance for all of your knowledgeable replies, > > -- > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Solaris 3500XP 10_A05.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 156170 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Mar 13 12:16:55 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:16:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <09ff3959724fe4f9b14041c6a607bb4e@mail.gmail.com> All – Yea, it’s amazing how much buzz Tesla was able to generate with their Powerwall without even having a product ready for sale. I’ve been keeping track of these next generation lithium-ion batteries so that we can keep up with the demand of all the tech savvy early adopters here in the Bay Area. It’s tough when there aren’t any products really ready for prime time! Tesla is only releasing an AC version of the PW2 with built in inverter. So, everything will be AC-coupled including to SolarEdge inverters. For backup, you must install a Tesla supplied “energy gateway” which basically looks like a 200 A automatic transfer switch used to isolate the backup panel (also referred to as the critical or protected loads panel) when the grid goes down. I haven’t actually seen an energy gateway spec sheet so I don’t know the specifics of how it works. Current transformer meters are required in the main panel and backup panel. There are spec sheets out there on the net with more information including simple single line diagrams of the setup. Dimensions are 45.3 in x 29.7 in. x 6.1 in. Various use scenarios should be possible including self consumption, non-export, and charge/discharge profile programming (arbitrage) but it will always be a balance between these types of use cases versus keeping it topped off for battery backup. I don’t have enough experience across a wide fleet of installations to know how we will balance these arbitrage profile programming modes versus always being ready for a power outage. In California we are also preparing for the Self Generation Incentive Program (SGIP) reopening and how to qualify for the Fed tax credit when paired with PV. There are a lot of constraints to work with! Our SolarEdge rep confirmed that they are focusing on pairing their StorEdge product with the LG RESSU10H li-ion battery coming out later this year. This will be DC coupled. The obvious benefits of these li-ion batteries are a) small size, b) cycle capacity, and c) ease of install. The high voltage output pioneered by the PW1 allows relatively small wires between the battery and inverter. This is a major benefit and is surely the future of where battery systems are going. Lead acid is tried and true, but has limited cycle capacity and the 48 volt limit will always make for a somewhat bulky and slow installation. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren *Sent:* Saturday, March 11, 2017 4:07 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 I have the same questions as Jay, I would really like to see the real specs for the Tesla 2.0. Other questions I have: -How will the Tesla 2.0 be installed in coordination with a PV system - I can only assume any PV system would have to be AC coupled with the Tesla? -Does the Tesla inverter handle all grid-sell functionality and keep PV inverter online during outage? -How does this impact the SolarEdge Storedge system that was designed to work with the Gen 1 Tesla that didn't have an inverter? The Storedge factsheet does not match the new topology: http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se_storedge_inverter_datasheet_na.pdf Thanks for any insight! Rebekah On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Chris Mason wrote: Don't ignore Sonnen, their ECO16 is a solid Lithium based solution. We installed one in Anguilla and, once we got through some software issues, the system performed solidly. On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:43 PM, jay wrote: HI All, I hesitate to bring this up, but I’ve had some questions come my way about the “new” Tesla 2.0 battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like Lithium and LA are pretty much the only games in town. I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty much nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by google search. Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? For example. what inverter is being used? how do they stack? battery chemistry? actual size ( depending on which info it changes) are they actually shipping? Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 12:54:24 2017 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:54:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 In-Reply-To: <09ff3959724fe4f9b14041c6a607bb4e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> <09ff3959724fe4f9b14041c6a607bb4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We installed the Sonnen system in Anguilla where the utility does not allow export and charges for export power. The Sonnen was not designed to work in that scenario, so we have had to design and implement a software and hardware solution for that problem. Our controller takes SOC data from the Sonnen and disconnects the inverter when the SOC is about 100%. We're still tweaking it but it should solve the problem cheaply. On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 12:16 PM, August Goers wrote: > All – > > > > Yea, it’s amazing how much buzz Tesla was able to generate with their > Powerwall without even having a product ready for sale. I’ve been keeping > track of these next generation lithium-ion batteries so that we can keep up > with the demand of all the tech savvy early adopters here in the Bay Area. > It’s tough when there aren’t any products really ready for prime time! > > > > Tesla is only releasing an AC version of the PW2 with built in inverter. > So, everything will be AC-coupled including to SolarEdge inverters. For > backup, you must install a Tesla supplied “energy gateway” which basically > looks like a 200 A automatic transfer switch used to isolate the backup > panel (also referred to as the critical or protected loads panel) when the > grid goes down. I haven’t actually seen an energy gateway spec sheet so I > don’t know the specifics of how it works. Current transformer meters are > required in the main panel and backup panel. There are spec sheets out > there on the net with more information including simple single line > diagrams of the setup. Dimensions are 45.3 in x 29.7 in. x 6.1 in. Various > use scenarios should be possible including self consumption, non-export, > and charge/discharge profile programming (arbitrage) but it will always be > a balance between these types of use cases versus keeping it topped off for > battery backup. I don’t have enough experience across a wide fleet of > installations to know how we will balance these arbitrage profile > programming modes versus always being ready for a power outage. In > California we are also preparing for the Self Generation Incentive Program > (SGIP) reopening and how to qualify for the Fed tax credit when paired with > PV. There are a lot of constraints to work with! > > > > Our SolarEdge rep confirmed that they are focusing on pairing their > StorEdge product with the LG RESSU10H li-ion battery coming out later this > year. This will be DC coupled. > > > > The obvious benefits of these li-ion batteries are a) small size, b) cycle > capacity, and c) ease of install. The high voltage output pioneered by the > PW1 allows relatively small wires between the battery and inverter. This is > a major benefit and is surely the future of where battery systems are > going. Lead acid is tried and true, but has limited cycle capacity and the > 48 volt limit will always make for a somewhat bulky and slow installation. > > > > August > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren > *Sent:* Saturday, March 11, 2017 4:07 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla 2.0 > > > > I have the same questions as Jay, I would really like to see the real > specs for the Tesla 2.0. > > > > Other questions I have: > > > > -How will the Tesla 2.0 be installed in coordination with a PV system - I > can only assume any PV system would have to be AC coupled with the Tesla? > > > > -Does the Tesla inverter handle all grid-sell functionality and keep PV > inverter online during outage? > > > > -How does this impact the SolarEdge Storedge system that was designed to > work with the Gen 1 Tesla that didn't have an inverter? The Storedge > factsheet does not match the new topology: http://www.solaredge.com/ > sites/default/files/se_storedge_inverter_datasheet_na.pdf > > > > Thanks for any insight! > > Rebekah > > > > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: > > Don't ignore Sonnen, their ECO16 is a solid Lithium based solution. We > installed one in Anguilla and, once we got through some software issues, > the system performed solidly. > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:43 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I hesitate to bring this up, but I’ve had some questions come my way about > the “new” Tesla 2.0 > battery backup units. And with the demise of Aquion, looks like Lithium > and LA are pretty much the only games in town. > > I have been able to find quite little on line ( surprise), pretty much > nothing from Tesla directly, but some from other folks by google search. > > Does anyone on the list here know anything solid? > For example. > what inverter is being used? > how do they stack? > battery chemistry? > actual size ( depending on which info it changes) > are they actually shipping? > > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Mason > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Design Engineer > > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > > www.cometsolar.com > > 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> > > 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> > > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Tel: 336.266.8800 <(336)%20266-8800> > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Mar 13 13:23:56 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:23:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling In-Reply-To: References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> <9AD1B455-1C4A-4717-BF5A-D3E77FEF8332@swnl.net> <20170309134710.AF70C10C2F@che.dreamhost.com> <20170310141301.447C510158@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20170313172454.E8BE410858@che.dreamhost.com> I talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new Sunny Boy inverters will provide taper charging with the Sunny Islands even though no RS 485 communication is available. The Sunny Boys need to be programmed in the off grid mode, and the Sunny Islands will take care of the UL 1741 requirements. The graph below shows the relation between frequency shift and % power produced by the Sunny Boy inverters. Emacs! Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: >I just checked with SMA and they do not have an >RS485 card for the -40 inverters. What this >means is that you can set them up to be >permanently in off grid mode where the SB will >follow the frequency shift of the SI, ok for an >off grid system. But for grid tie with backup, >the SB will not communicate with the SI and will >not change the SB to off grid mode. It will >still work like other generic AC coupled systems >where the frequency shift will cause the SB >inverter to drop off line, but as far as I know no throttling back will happen. > >Brad > >On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 6:12 AM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >I talked to SMA tech support. They said the 5.0 >and 6.0 models were compatible with AC coupling. >AEE supplied the SI 485PB NR Piggyback card with RJ 45 cable. > >At 06:45 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: >>Well my supplier was not aware of any >>additional part# for this purpose. Nor was >>their anything in their manual stating compatibility. >>Part# PLEASE, It does seem short sighted of the >>company who pioneered AC Coupling to no longer >>provide us w/ equipment for said ACC. >>>On Mar 9, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Drake >>>< >>>drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>> >>>I was told by SMA tech support that the new >>>SMA US 40s were compatible with AC coupling. I >>>was provided with interface cards for the purpose. >>> >>>At 04:21 PM 3/8/2017, William Miller wrote: >>> >>>What are the limitations of the new SMA inverters? >>> >>>Drake >>> >>> >>>>Wrenches: >>>> >>>>As a caution: The TL22 inverters have >>>>been discontinued. The TL40s have some >>>>limitations as compared to the TL22s, in my >>>>opinion. You may still find TL22s on the shelf. >>>> >>>>William >>>> >>>> >>>><28a7dc11.jpg> >>>>Lic 773985 >>>>millersolar.com >>>>805-438-5600 >>>> >>>>From: RE-wrenches [ >>>>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>>>On Behalf Of Tump >>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 1:13 PM >>>>To: findsolar at herzfeld.org; RE-wrenches >>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries >>>> >>>>I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB >>>>4000TL22US  w/ 20 stack on one and another >>>>site w/ the Aspen 48M w/ Schneider. I >>>>will say this; cost per amp hour of storage >>>> sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my >>>>client and I feel, that the batteries, >>>>despite there size have very little capacity. >>>>The “30†%DOD, that I haI have the SIs >>>>set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks >>>>OK but one gets better performance from  >>>>charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M >>>>is ~ 42X28X42†@563 AH of capacity, UnigyII >>>>2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteriesies are >>>>defiantly temperature sensitive, operating >>>>should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the SMA >>>>product, adds additional cost due to the >>>>required  BM200 AND  the Sunny Island >>>>Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you >>>>are buying theAspen48M which comes pre wired. >>>>(Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing >>>>module installed). It is quite helpful, >>>>if this is an off grid install due to the >>>>fact that the BM200 needs and when things go >>>>south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and >>>>help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be >>>>connected to the internet. This install also >>>>needs the correct firmware to be installed on >>>>the SI which when  was delivered, the >>>>firmware  would only load into the master >>>>then shut down the system. Had to >>>>reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the >>>>firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase. >>>>I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of >>>>capacity and was told that must be my loads . NOT. >>>> >I would suggest that despite their hype >>>> these are quite expensive and require quite >>>> a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the >>>> un sensed stacks. And there is definitely >>>> a learning curve if you are using the SI. >>>>My own system and what I prefer to push IS >>>>the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure that you >>>>get the TL22s as the newest SB is not >>>>compatible for “ AC coupling†in this >>>>configuration) w/) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. >>>>(same battery) These have buss bars, stack >>>>vertically , the interlocking stacks is >>>>perfect for earthquake locations. AND are totally recyclable. >>>>Pictures  of the SMA install & insights >>>>of battery installation available, contact me off line. TUMP >>>>  >>>>On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld >>>><findsolar at herzfeld.org > wrote: >>>> >>>>Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny >>>>Island? Space is not an issue for this client. >>>>Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master >>>>Trainer ™ for PV Innstallation Professional #IREC 10037 >>>>California Solaar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 >>>>Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation >>>>UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >>>>OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 >>>>CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >>>>Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider >>>> Â  >>>> >>>>On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" >>>><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com > wrote: >>>>We had a customer request them but once we >>>>found out how many it would take, he decided >>>>on the deka unigee instead. l dont like >>>>running my OB's at such a low voltage as they >>>>seem to get hotter due to the higher current. >>>>Some of our other product lines don't even >>>>reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, >>>>suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. >>>> >>>>On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" >>>>< >>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>>Hello Wrenches, >>>>I have a client who is going to take the >>>>plunge and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. >>>>They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not >>>>sure how well an inverter would function at >>>>the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience >>>>to recommend them or warn against using them? >>>>Thanks, >>>>Drake >>>>Drake Chamberlin >>>>Athens Electric LLC >>>>OH License 44810 >>>>CO License 3773 >>>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>>740-448-7328 >>>>http://athens-electric.com/ >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>List Address: >>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>List Address: >>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>List Address: >>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>>Tump at swnl.net       Â  www.SWNL.net >>>>         Â >>>>Solarwinds Northernlights       >>>>   Â Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>>>         >>>>   Â 207-832-7574   Cl. >>>>610-517-8401           >>>>                   >>>>         >>>>     Â  Blair "TUMP" May >>>>       Â >>>>******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>               >>>>   Â  NABCEP   "Certified PV Installer" >>>>   >>>>          >>>>  ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>               >>>>  Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" >>>>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" >>>>Content-ID: >>>>X-Attachment-Id: d32b0196b0d3a567_0.1 >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>>List Address: >>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>>List-Archive: >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>>---------- >>> >>>Avast logo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>www.avast.com >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>>Tump at swnl.net              >>> www.SWNL.net >>>               Solarwinds Northernlights     >>>      Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>>                       >>> 207-832-7574  Cl. >>>610-517-8401      >>>                       >>>                             Blair "TUMP" May >>> >>>              ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>                    >>> NABCEP   "Certified PV Installer" >>>  >>>             ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>                 Trace >>>Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >---------- > >Avast logo > > > >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >www.avast.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3e07ddb7.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27098 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 20:55:57 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:55:57 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li-ion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches We have been using V2 Li ion batteries, their BMS works well, we are now testing two systems with an air conditioner, one 5 k and on 10k (usable) we just ran a Lezeti one ton ductless DC-48 air conditioner at 70 degrees for 31 hours on the 10 k battery system with PV and back up charging all off. The battery BMS has dual safety battery contactors, aux input and is quick to install. We have been beating these up for 9 months now and we just pulled them appart to see the battery condition all batteries tested good and went back up on line. V2 is a US based company and tech support has been helpfull when we set up the OB CC voltage setting which is nice. I am to understand they came out of the film industry. I know how it can be looking at battery technologies and this manufacture has something that has worked for us. Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Mar 18 10:52:46 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 07:52:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li-ion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33f91813-71cc-6deb-5c2e-4bdb2b628bf2@berkeleysolar.com> Jerry I cant seem to find this vendor on the web. Can you send information on how to find them? Thanks, Mark On 3/17/2017 5:55 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > We have been using V2 Li ion batteries, their BMS works well, we are > now testing two systems with an air conditioner, one 5 k and on 10k > (usable) we just ran a Lezeti one ton ductless DC-48 air conditioner > at 70 degrees for 31 hours on the 10 k battery system with PV and back > up charging all off. The battery BMS has dual safety battery > contactors, aux input and is quick to install. We have been beating > these up for 9 months now and we just pulled them appart to see the > battery condition all batteries tested good and went back up on line. > V2 is a US based company and tech support has been helpfull when we > set up the OB CC voltage setting which is nice. I am to understand > they came out of the film industry. > I know how it can be looking at battery technologies and this > manufacture has something that has worked for us. > Jerry > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 18 17:44:06 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 11:44:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li-ion In-Reply-To: <33f91813-71cc-6deb-5c2e-4bdb2b628bf2@berkeleysolar.com> References: <33f91813-71cc-6deb-5c2e-4bdb2b628bf2@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: V2energysystems.com On Mar 18, 2017 4:52 AM, "Mark Frye" wrote: > Jerry I cant seem to find this vendor on the web. Can you send information > on how to find them? > > Thanks, > > Mark > > On 3/17/2017 5:55 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > We have been using V2 Li ion batteries, their BMS works well, we are now > testing two systems with an air conditioner, one 5 k and on 10k (usable) we > just ran a Lezeti one ton ductless DC-48 air conditioner at 70 degrees for > 31 hours on the 10 k battery system with PV and back up charging all off. > The battery BMS has dual safety battery contactors, aux input and is quick > to install. We have been beating these up for 9 months now and we just > pulled them appart to see the battery condition all batteries tested good > and went back up on line. > V2 is a US based company and tech support has been helpfull when we set up > the OB CC voltage setting which is nice. I am to understand they came out > of the film industry. > I know how it can be looking at battery technologies and this manufacture > has something that has worked for us. > Jerry > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Mar 21 09:52:08 2017 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 07:52:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius DataManager 1.0 Message-ID: Wrenches, I'm looking for a discontinued Fronius DataManager 1.0. If anyone has one they'd part with or if you can suggest a possible source then please reply to me off-list. Much thanks, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 21 21:34:32 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 18:34:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) Message-ID: HI All, I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for the 705-11-A NEC 2014) Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC) They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd inverter onto a 3 phase service ( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2) Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd. Anyone ever run into this before? Any answers? thanks jay From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 22 12:04:43 2017 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 09:04:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <049b01d2a326$0768a930$1639fb90$@sbcglobal.net> Jay, You need to provide more information. The 2014 NEC is a significant improvement in the language related to single-phase inverters on a 3-phase service. To read it any other way shows a very large misunderstanding of the language. It should be much better on the 2014 NEC, not worse. Where do they not get it. The old language was used routinely to prevent single-phase inverters on the 3-phase systems. I wrote the change to the 2014 that greatly improves the language. Bill. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 6:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) HI All, I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for the 705-11-A NEC 2014) Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC) They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd inverter onto a 3 phase service ( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2) Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd. Anyone ever run into this before? Any answers? thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Mar 21 23:09:03 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 23:09:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170322030916.BD89B10E63@che.dreamhost.com> Hi Jay, I must not understand. I don't see a 705.11 in the 2014 NEC. -----Original Message----- From: "jay" Sent: ‎3/‎21/‎2017 21:34 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) HI All, I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for the 705-11-A NEC 2014) Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC) They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd inverter onto a 3 phase service ( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2) Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd. Anyone ever run into this before? Any answers? thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wp_ss_20170321_0001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 109581 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 22 18:43:18 2017 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:43:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firestone Metal Roof with S-5 Message-ID: Has anyone run into Firestone brand metal roofing? A local roofer is trying to tell my client that the warranty will be void if a solar contractor installs S-5 clamps, but they have a different product and if they install it (clamps only), it will not void the warranty. For (maybe) obvious reasons I would rather not subcontract the clamps to the roofer. He is claiming you must be a Firestone approved vendor to keep the warranty intact. I don’t buy it. ​Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 21:40:07 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:40:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firestone Metal Roof with S-5 Message-ID: <1voglfduyr3p2m96otnh3s5l.1490233207817@email.android.com> WrenchesOur parent company does roofing and works with firestone, l do not know of any such rule BUT its safe to have the roofer do that and everyone is protected then why not. Remember it all about the customer and if they feel happy then we all are happy. But thats just me.Jerry. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jason Szumlanski Date: 3/22/17 12:43 PM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firestone Metal Roof with S-5 Has anyone run into Firestone brand metal roofing? A local roofer is trying to tell my client that the warranty will be void if a solar contractor installs S-5 clamps, but they have a different product and if they install it (clamps only), it will not void the warranty. For (maybe) obvious reasons I would rather not subcontract the clamps to the roofer. He is claiming you must be a Firestone approved vendor to keep the warranty intact. I don’t buy it. ​Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 20:46:56 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:46:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) In-Reply-To: <20170322030916.BD89B10E63@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170322030916.BD89B10E63@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <03CCC639-8345-4F61-865F-FD2CFC3123C3@gmail.com> Hi Glenn I had it correct in the subject, but got it wrong below, here is the correct number 2014NEC, 705-100 (a) > On Mar 21, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Hi Jay, > I must not understand. > I don't see a 705.11 in the 2014 NEC. > From: jay > Sent: ‎3/‎21/‎2017 21:34 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) > > HI All, > > I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for the 705-11-A NEC 2014) > Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC) > They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd inverter onto a 3 phase service > ( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2) > Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd. > > Anyone ever run into this before? > Any answers? > > thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Mar 22 22:55:06 2017 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 20:55:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firestone Metal Roof with S-5 In-Reply-To: <1voglfduyr3p2m96otnh3s5l.1490233207817@email.android.com> References: <1voglfduyr3p2m96otnh3s5l.1490233207817@email.android.com> Message-ID: Jason, Contact Firestone yourself and tell them the roofers claim and if it's true then get it in writing. If it's not, get it in writing. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Mar 22, 2017, at 7:40 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > > Wrenches > Our parent company does roofing and works with firestone, l do not know of any such rule BUT its safe to have the roofer do that and everyone is protected then why not. Remember it all about the customer and if they feel happy then we all are happy. But thats just me. > Jerry. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jason Szumlanski > Date: 3/22/17 12:43 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firestone Metal Roof with S-5 > > Has anyone run into Firestone brand metal roofing? A local roofer is trying to tell my client that the warranty will be void if a solar contractor installs S-5 clamps, but they have a different product and if they install it (clamps only), it will not void the warranty. For (maybe) obvious reasons I would rather not subcontract the clamps to the roofer. He is claiming you must be a Firestone approved vendor to keep the warranty intact. I don’t buy it. > > ​Jason > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 23 06:38:11 2017 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 06:38:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firestone Metal Roof with S-5 In-Reply-To: References: <1voglfduyr3p2m96otnh3s5l.1490233207817@email.android.com> Message-ID: I did stumble across a post-warranty alteration form that seems to indicate PV systems must be installed by a Firestone certified roofer, but it doesn’t really say what components need to be installed by the roofer. It’s very vague. http://firestonebpco.com/assets/2015/03/firestone-post-warranty-alteration-form.pdf ​I plan to call and get answers directly from Firestone.​ ​Jason On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Jason, > Contact Firestone yourself and tell them the roofers claim and if it's > true then get it in writing. If it's not, get it in writing. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 <(780)%20906-7807> > > On Mar 22, 2017, at 7:40 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > > Wrenches > Our parent company does roofing and works with firestone, l do not know of > any such rule BUT its safe to have the roofer do that and everyone is > protected then why not. Remember it all about the customer and if they feel > happy then we all are happy. But thats just me. > Jerry. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jason Szumlanski > Date: 3/22/17 12:43 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firestone Metal Roof with S-5 > > Has anyone run into Firestone brand metal roofing? A local roofer is > trying to tell my client that the warranty will be void if a solar > contractor installs S-5 clamps, but they have a different product and if > they install it (clamps only), it will not void the warranty. For (maybe) > obvious reasons I would rather not subcontract the clamps to the roofer. He > is claiming you must be a Firestone approved vendor to keep the warranty > intact. I don’t buy it. > > ​Jason > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sat Mar 25 12:10:00 2017 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 09:10:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? Message-ID: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Mar 24 20:09:03 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 20:09:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) In-Reply-To: <03CCC639-8345-4F61-865F-FD2CFC3123C3@gmail.com> References: <20170322030916.BD89B10E63@che.dreamhost.com> <03CCC639-8345-4F61-865F-FD2CFC3123C3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009701d2a4fc$0407ce60$0c176b20$@glbcc.com> HI Jay, Are they saying that adding the 3rd inverter will cause a greater than 3% imbalance? How big are the inverters? Are they all the same size? Is it a 208 or 480 service? -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) Hi Glenn I had it correct in the subject, but got it wrong below, here is the correct number 2014NEC, 705-100 (a) On Mar 21, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: Hi Jay, I must not understand. I don't see a 705.11 in the 2014 NEC. _____ From: jay Sent: ‎3/‎21/‎2017 21:34 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) HI All, I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for the 705-11-A NEC 2014) Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC) They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd inverter onto a 3 phase service ( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2) Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd. Anyone ever run into this before? Any answers? thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Mar 25 16:55:14 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 13:55:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) In-Reply-To: <009701d2a4fc$0407ce60$0c176b20$@glbcc.com> References: <20170322030916.BD89B10E63@che.dreamhost.com> <03CCC639-8345-4F61-865F-FD2CFC3123C3@gmail.com> <009701d2a4fc$0407ce60$0c176b20$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <983E23AD-27EE-4A04-B755-EE4A508D3DBB@gmail.com> HI Glenn, I have not X%#&*? idea of what the building department is thinking. They would take a sign off from a, and I quote here “california licensed professional” And that is what exactly? But yes you are correct. 200 amp 208v 3 phase service 2 existing 3kw SMA inverters this was adding the 3rd. Utility was fine with the other two which were added one at a time. ( 1 per year, this being year 3) Jay Peltz power > On Mar 24, 2017, at 5:09 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > HI Jay, > > Are they saying that adding the 3rd inverter will cause a greater than 3% imbalance? > How big are the inverters? Are they all the same size? > Is it a 208 or 480 service? > > -Glenn > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:47 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) > > Hi Glenn > > I had it correct in the subject, but got it wrong below, here is the correct number > > > > 2014NEC, 705-100 (a) > > > > On Mar 21, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: > >> Hi Jay, >> I must not understand. >> I don't see a 705.11 in the 2014 NEC. >> From: jay >> Sent: ‎3/‎21/‎2017 21:34 >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A) >> >> HI All, >> >> I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for the 705-11-A NEC 2014) >> Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC) >> They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd inverter onto a 3 phase service >> ( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2) >> Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd. >> >> Anyone ever run into this before? >> Any answers? >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Sat Mar 25 19:58:14 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 19:58:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? In-Reply-To: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <4F91702F-07DB-4F3A-B3E0-B4A3FAD6164E@swnl.net> Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work around" that was discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I looked quickly but didn’t see it posted. You were going to install a RS 485 card/ module that had the soft ware to make it work. I found this out just as these “Newest latest n greatest inverters" were just coming out, looked at the manual, and much to my disappointment I had to send it back and educate my salesperson to this. Lucky for me I was able to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you don’t have any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least he was there 2 weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump > On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > All, > > Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US / 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or is not supported by the Sunny Island in off-grid AC coupling mode? The technical paper on the subject here http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf does not list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper is dated Feb '16. > > I sure hope they are because that paper shows they discontinued support the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US / 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US / 7700TL-US series! Why!?? > > Hope you have good news for me! > > Best, > > Jeff > > -- > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > Renewable Energy Design & Installation > Ecovillage Design Consultant > > Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 > www.villagepowerdesign.com > 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Sat Mar 25 20:20:05 2017 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 20:20:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? In-Reply-To: <4F91702F-07DB-4F3A-B3E0-B4A3FAD6164E@swnl.net> References: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> <4F91702F-07DB-4F3A-B3E0-B4A3FAD6164E@swnl.net> Message-ID: I'm confused. Does this mean the -40 series are not compatible with SI off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output due to frequency shift? Or? Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Mar 25, 2017 7:59 PM, "Tump" wrote: > Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work around" that was > discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I looked quickly but didn’t see it > posted. You were going to install a RS 485 card/ module that had the soft > ware to make it work. I found this out just as these “Newest latest n > greatest inverters" were just coming out, looked at the manual, and much to > my disappointment I had to send it back and educate my salesperson to this. > Lucky for me I was able to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you > don’t have any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least he was there 2 > weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump > > On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > > All, > > Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US / 3.8-US / 5.0-US / > 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or is not supported by the Sunny > Island in off-grid AC coupling mode? The technical paper on the subject > here http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf does not > list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper is dated Feb '16. > > I sure hope they are because that paper shows they discontinued support > the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US / 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / > 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US / 7700TL-US series! Why!?? > > Hope you have good news for me! > > Best, > > Jeff > > -- > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > Renewable Energy Design & Installation > Ecovillage Design Consultant > > Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 > www.villagepowerdesign.com > 413-559-9763 <(413)%20559-9763> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <(207)%20832-7574> Cl. > 610-517-8401 <(610)%20517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sat Mar 25 20:46:32 2017 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 17:46:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? In-Reply-To: References: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> <4F91702F-07DB-4F3A-B3E0-B4A3FAD6164E@swnl.net> Message-ID: <58D70F68.7000601@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 27098 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 25 22:04:39 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 20:04:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? In-Reply-To: <58D70F68.7000601@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> <4F91702F-07DB-4F3A-B3E0-B4A3FAD6164E@swnl.net> <58D70F68.7000601@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <3cf3785c-6e5e-343d-7370-2c9991aeda51@solarray.com> Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system deal with 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and GTB arrangements? 690.12 has been killing battery based projects left and right here in Colorado. Thanks, R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hi Howie, > > So Jay found this from previous posts (below). So apparently the -40 > series will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you program the SBs > separately to be in OG) but won't do the switching of modes necessary > for grid-tie backup. I plan on a call to SMA tech support Monday > morning to get to the bottom of what exactly is lost without the RS485 > comm. And to see if TLs are still going to work as the new SIs tech > sheet shows they are not supported. why I have no idea but I intend > to find out. > > hope that helps. > > Best, > > Jeff > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *Drake > > >> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling* >> *Date: *March 13, 2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT >> *To: *RE-wrenches > > >> *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches > > >> >> I talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new Sunny Boy inverters >> will provide taper charging with the Sunny Islands even though no RS >> 485 communication is available. The Sunny Boys need to be programmed >> in the off grid mode, and the Sunny Islands will take care of the UL >> 1741 requirements. >> >> The graph below shows the relation between frequency shift and % >> power produced by the Sunny Boy inverters. >> Emacs! >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> /Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> /http://athens-electric.com/ >> At 11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: >> I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for the >> -40 inverters. What this means is that you can set them up to be >> permanently in off grid mode where the SB will follow the frequency >> shift of the SI, ok for an off grid system. But for grid tie with >> backup, the SB will not communicate with the SI and will not change >> the SB to off grid mode. It will still work like other generic AC >> coupled systems where the frequency shift will cause the SB inverter >> to drop off line, but as far as I know no throttling back will happen. >> >> Brad > > > Howie Michaelson wrote: >> I'm confused. Does this mean the -40 series are not compatible with >> SI off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output due to frequency shift? >> Or? >> >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ >> >> Sun Catcher >> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >> 802-272-0004 >> >> On Mar 25, 2017 7:59 PM, "Tump" > > wrote: >> >> Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work around" >> that was discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I looked quickly >> but didn’t see it posted. You were going to install a RS 485 >> card/ module that had the soft ware to make it work. I found this >> out just as these “Newest latest n greatest inverters" were just >> coming out, looked at the manual, and much to my disappointment I >> had to send it back and educate my salesperson to this. Lucky for >> me I was able to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you >> don’t have any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least he was >> there 2 weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump >>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> All, >>> >>> Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US / 3.8-US / >>> 5.0-US / 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or is not supported >>> by the Sunny Island in off-grid AC coupling mode? The technical >>> paper on the subject here >>> http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf >>> does >>> not list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper is dated Feb '16. >>> >>> I sure hope they are because that paper shows they discontinued >>> support the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US / 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / >>> 5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US / 7700TL-US series! Why!?? >>> >>> Hope you have good news for me! >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> -- >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> Renewable Energy Design & Installation >>> Ecovillage Design Consultant >>> >>> Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> *Tump at swnl.net**www.SWNL.net* >>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >>> */ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >>> /**/207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> /* >>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >>> >>> */ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**//**/NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >>> /**/ >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**/ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > Renewable Energy Design & Installation > Ecovillage Design Consultant > > NABCEPâ„¢ Certified Solar PV Installer > Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 > www.villagepowerdesign.com > 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 27098 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Mar 26 11:22:02 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 09:22:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? In-Reply-To: <3cf3785c-6e5e-343d-7370-2c9991aeda51@solarray.com> References: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> <4F91702F-07DB-4F3A-B3E0-B4A3FAD6164E@swnl.net> <58D70F68.7000601@villagepowerdesign.com> <3cf3785c-6e5e-343d-7370-2c9991aeda51@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these battery-based projects are getting killed here locally? Is it the misinterpretation by AHJs that 690.12 has to disconnect the inverter from the battery bank with giant shunt-trip breakers? If that were the case...backup generators would have to be controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I don't think that can of worms has been opened yet. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ray wrote: > Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system deal with 690.12 > Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and GTB arrangements? 690.12 has been > killing battery based projects left and right here in Colorado. > > Thanks, > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> > > On 3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hi Howie, > > So Jay found this from previous posts (below). So apparently the -40 > series will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you program the SBs > separately to be in OG) but won't do the switching of modes necessary for > grid-tie backup. I plan on a call to SMA tech support Monday morning to > get to the bottom of what exactly is lost without the RS485 comm. And to > see if TLs are still going to work as the new SIs tech sheet shows they are > not supported. why I have no idea but I intend to find out. > > hope that helps. > > Best, > > Jeff > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *Drake > *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling* > *Date: *March 13, 2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches > > I talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new Sunny Boy inverters will > provide taper charging with the Sunny Islands even though no RS 485 > communication is available. The Sunny Boys need to be programmed in the off > grid mode, and the Sunny Islands will take care of the UL 1741 requirements. > > > The graph below shows the relation between frequency shift and % power > produced by the Sunny Boy inverters. > [image: Emacs!] > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <(740)%20448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > At 11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: > I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for the -40 > inverters. What this means is that you can set them up to be permanently in > off grid mode where the SB will follow the frequency shift of the SI, ok > for an off grid system. But for grid tie with backup, the SB will not > communicate with the SI and will not change the SB to off grid mode. It > will still work like other generic AC coupled systems where the frequency > shift will cause the SB inverter to drop off line, but as far as I know no > throttling back will happen. > > Brad > > > > Howie Michaelson wrote: > > I'm confused. Does this mean the -40 series are not compatible with SI off > grid mode? Or they don't adjust output due to frequency shift? Or? > > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 <(802)%20272-0004> > > On Mar 25, 2017 7:59 PM, "Tump" wrote: > >> Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work around" that was >> discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I looked quickly but didn’t see it >> posted. You were going to install a RS 485 card/ module that had the soft >> ware to make it work. I found this out just as these “Newest latest n >> greatest inverters" were just coming out, looked at the manual, and much to >> my disappointment I had to send it back and educate my salesperson to this. >> Lucky for me I was able to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you >> don’t have any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least he was there 2 >> weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump >> >> On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater < >> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: >> >> All, >> >> Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US / 3.8-US / 5.0-US / >> 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or is not supported by the Sunny >> Island in off-grid AC coupling mode? The technical paper on the subject >> here http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf does not >> list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper is dated Feb '16. >> >> I sure hope they are because that paper shows they discontinued support >> the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US / 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / >> 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US / 7700TL-US series! Why!?? >> >> Hope you have good news for me! >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> -- >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> Renewable Energy Design & Installation >> Ecovillage Design Consultant >> >> Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> 413-559-9763 <%28413%29%20559-9763> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 <%28207%29%20832-7574> Cl. >> 610-517-8401 <%28610%29%20517-8401> * >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > Renewable Energy Design & Installation > Ecovillage Design Consultant > > NABCEP™ Certified Solar PV Installer > Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 > www.villagepowerdesign.com > 413-559-9763 <(413)%20559-9763> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 27098 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Mar 26 13:50:14 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 13:50:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? In-Reply-To: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <20170326175018.59FDA105D6@che.dreamhost.com> Jeff, I just went through this. The SI and the US 40s still work together. They do not use a 485 card. The Sunny Boys are programmed in off grid mode, and the Sunny Islands take care of the UL1741 requirements. Tim at SMA gave me this information. The Sunny Boys will taper charge as shown on the graph below. I called to ask about the 5.0 and 6.0, so you might want to check to be certain about other models. [] Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 12:10 PM 3/25/2017, you wrote: >All, > >Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US / 3.8-US / >5.0-US / 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or is not supported by >the Sunny Island in off-grid AC coupling mode? The technical paper >on the subject here >http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf >does not list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper is dated Feb '16. > >I sure hope they are because that paper shows they discontinued >support the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US / 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / >5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US / 7700TL-US series! Why!?? > >Hope you have good news for me! > >Best, > >Jeff > >-- >Jeff Clearwater >Village Power Design >Renewable Energy Design & Installation >Ecovillage Design Consultant > >Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 >www.villagepowerdesign.com >413-559-9763 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 384fb783.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28392 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Mar 26 15:00:09 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 13:00:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? In-Reply-To: References: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> <4F91702F-07DB-4F3A-B3E0-B4A3FAD6164E@swnl.net> <58D70F68.7000601@villagepowerdesign.com> <3cf3785c-6e5e-343d-7370-2c9991aeda51@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1871579e-94a9-9b80-9c54-dcf3a1085790@solarray.com> First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT breakers, control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for wiring and testing. I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of cost. Not a big deal on large systems but for a smaller off grid project in the $10K range, its a huge increase in cost. Folks are just going to go DIY with junk off the internet, and the code is now under the bus. We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV array circuit, not the inverter and battery output. Which has at least kept refrigerators and heating system on during a trip. However, because charge controllers hold residual voltage in capacitors after the array is disconnected, we have had to add RT breakers at the charge controllers to comply with the 30 v in 10 sec rule. My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer must go onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to restore power. IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer safety in the name of fire fighter safety, not a fair bargain at all. There are numerous nuisance faults that require reset, (CAT 5 loose connection or induced noise, faulty 9 v battery, naughty neighbor) Firefighters will probably only ever be on site to strap our poor customer to a back board after they fall off the roof in the snow trying to reset their new 690.12 compliant system. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these battery-based projects are > getting killed here locally? Is it the misinterpretation by AHJs that > 690.12 has to disconnect the inverter from the battery bank with giant > shunt-trip breakers? If that were the case...backup generators would > have to be controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I don't think that > can of worms has been opened yet. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ray > wrote: > > Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system deal with > 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and GTB arrangements? > 690.12 has been killing battery based projects left and right here > in Colorado. > > Thanks, > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> Hi Howie, >> >> So Jay found this from previous posts (below). So apparently the >> -40 series will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you program the >> SBs separately to be in OG) but won't do the switching of modes >> necessary for grid-tie backup. I plan on a call to SMA tech >> support Monday morning to get to the bottom of what exactly is >> lost without the RS485 comm. And to see if TLs are still going >> to work as the new SIs tech sheet shows they are not supported. >> why I have no idea but I intend to find out. >> >> hope that helps. >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> *From: *Drake >> > >>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling* >>> *Date: *March 13, 2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT >>> *To: *RE-wrenches >> > >>> *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches >> > >>> >>> I talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new Sunny Boy inverters >>> will provide taper charging with the Sunny Islands even though >>> no RS 485 communication is available. The Sunny Boys need to be >>> programmed in the off grid mode, and the Sunny Islands will take >>> care of the UL 1741 requirements. >>> >>> The graph below shows the relation between frequency shift and % >>> power produced by the Sunny Boy inverters. >>> Emacs! >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> /Athens Electric LLC >>> OH License 44810 >>> CO License 3773 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> 740-448-7328 >>> /http://athens-electric.com/ >>> At 11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: >>> I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for >>> the -40 inverters. What this means is that you can set them up >>> to be permanently in off grid mode where the SB will follow the >>> frequency shift of the SI, ok for an off grid system. But for >>> grid tie with backup, the SB will not communicate with the SI >>> and will not change the SB to off grid mode. It will still work >>> like other generic AC coupled systems where the frequency shift >>> will cause the SB inverter to drop off line, but as far as I >>> know no throttling back will happen. >>> >>> Brad >> >> >> Howie Michaelson wrote: >>> I'm confused. Does this mean the -40 series are not compatible >>> with SI off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output due to >>> frequency shift? Or? >>> >>> Howie >>> Howie Michaelson >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ >>> >>> Sun Catcher >>> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >>> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >>> 802-272-0004 >>> >>> On Mar 25, 2017 7:59 PM, "Tump" >> > wrote: >>> >>> Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work >>> around" that was discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I >>> looked quickly but didn’t see it posted. You were going to >>> install a RS 485 card/ module that had the soft ware to make >>> it work. I found this out just as these “Newest latest n >>> greatest inverters" were just coming out, looked at the >>> manual, and much to my disappointment I had to send it back >>> and educate my salesperson to this. Lucky for me I was able >>> to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you don’t have >>> any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least he was there >>> 2 weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump >>>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US / >>>> 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or is >>>> not supported by the Sunny Island in off-grid AC coupling >>>> mode? The technical paper on the subject here >>>> http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf >>>> >>>> does not list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper is >>>> dated Feb '16. >>>> >>>> I sure hope they are because that paper shows they >>>> discontinued support the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US / >>>> 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US / >>>> 7700TL-US series! Why!?? >>>> >>>> Hope you have good news for me! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>> Village Power Design >>>> Renewable Energy Design & Installation >>>> Ecovillage Design Consultant >>>> >>>> Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 >>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>> 413-559-9763 >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> *Tump at swnl.net**www.SWNL.net* >>>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >>>> */ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >>>> /**/207-832-7574 Cl. >>>> 610-517-8401 /* >>>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >>>> >>>> */ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> /**//**/ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >>>> /**/ >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> /**/ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design & >> Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant NABCEPâ„¢ Certified Solar >> PV Installer Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email > address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update > participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 27098 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Sun Mar 26 15:05:02 2017 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 12:05:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? In-Reply-To: <1871579e-94a9-9b80-9c54-dcf3a1085790@solarray.com> References: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> <4F91702F-07DB-4F3A-B3E0-B4A3FAD6164E@swnl.net> <58D70F68.7000601@villagepowerdesign.com> <3cf3785c-6e5e-343d-7370-2c9991aeda51@solarray.com> <1871579e-94a9-9b80-9c54-dcf3a1085790@solarray.com> Message-ID: Battery based rapid shut down is not simple. Much of it is up to the AHJ. You can shut down the AC output or the battery or both. Shunt trip battery breakers do not cost much more than regular battery breakers. You do need to control them though. That is what the Birdhouse and MNbattery disconnect module was designed to do. Yes, generators can also be shut down with the Birdhouse. You may be able to use the upcoming Little SOB [Shut Off Box] soon just to shut down the PV array for battery based systems. The cost is very minimal, but you will still have to deal with PV input capacitor discharge times. Maybe 2 Little SOB’s, one on each end? They are very inexpensive. I do not mean to sound like a sales pitch here, but it seems like we are the only people working on solutions that fit these needs, so you need to know about them. MidNite has about the only solution at present for battery based shut down. You have all said it costs too much and is too complicated. We have listened. Robin Gudgel *MidNite solar* On 3/26/2017 12:00 PM, Ray wrote: > > First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT breakers, > control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for wiring and > testing. I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of cost. Not a big deal on > large systems but for a smaller off grid project in the $10K range, > its a huge increase in cost. Folks are just going to go DIY with junk > off the internet, and the code is now under the bus. > > We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV array > circuit, not the inverter and battery output. Which has at least kept > refrigerators and heating system on during a trip. However, because > charge controllers hold residual voltage in capacitors after the array > is disconnected, we have had to add RT breakers at the charge > controllers to comply with the 30 v in 10 sec rule. > > My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer must go > onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to restore power. > IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer safety in the name of fire > fighter safety, not a fair bargain at all. There are numerous > nuisance faults that require reset, (CAT 5 loose connection or induced > noise, faulty 9 v battery, naughty neighbor) Firefighters will > probably only ever be on site to strap our poor customer to a back > board after they fall off the roof in the snow trying to reset their > new 690.12 compliant system. > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado > 303 505-8760 > On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these battery-based projects >> are getting killed here locally? Is it the misinterpretation by AHJs >> that 690.12 has to disconnect the inverter from the battery bank with >> giant shunt-trip breakers? If that were the case...backup generators >> would have to be controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I don't think >> that can of worms has been opened yet. >> >> Dan Fink >> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ray > > wrote: >> >> Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system deal with >> 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and GTB arrangements? >> 690.12 has been killing battery based projects left and right >> here in Colorado. >> >> Thanks, >> >> R. Ray Walters >> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com >> BS Mech Engineering, 1988 >> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 >> Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> Hi Howie, >>> >>> So Jay found this from previous posts (below). So apparently >>> the -40 series will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you >>> program the SBs separately to be in OG) but won't do the >>> switching of modes necessary for grid-tie backup. I plan on a >>> call to SMA tech support Monday morning to get to the bottom of >>> what exactly is lost without the RS485 comm. And to see if TLs >>> are still going to work as the new SIs tech sheet shows they are >>> not supported. why I have no idea but I intend to find out. >>> >>> hope that helps. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>> *From: *Drake >>> > >>>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling* >>>> *Date: *March 13, 2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT >>>> *To: *RE-wrenches >>> > >>>> *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches >>> > >>>> >>>> I talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new Sunny Boy >>>> inverters will provide taper charging with the Sunny Islands >>>> even though no RS 485 communication is available. The Sunny >>>> Boys need to be programmed in the off grid mode, and the Sunny >>>> Islands will take care of the UL 1741 requirements. >>>> >>>> The graph below shows the relation between frequency shift and >>>> % power produced by the Sunny Boy inverters. >>>> Emacs! >>>> >>>> Drake Chamberlin >>>> /Athens Electric LLC >>>> OH License 44810 >>>> CO License 3773 >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>> 740-448-7328 >>>> /http://athens-electric.com/ >>>> At 11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: >>>> I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for >>>> the -40 inverters. What this means is that you can set them up >>>> to be permanently in off grid mode where the SB will follow the >>>> frequency shift of the SI, ok for an off grid system. But for >>>> grid tie with backup, the SB will not communicate with the SI >>>> and will not change the SB to off grid mode. It will still work >>>> like other generic AC coupled systems where the frequency shift >>>> will cause the SB inverter to drop off line, but as far as I >>>> know no throttling back will happen. >>>> >>>> Brad >>> >>> >>> Howie Michaelson wrote: >>>> I'm confused. Does this mean the -40 series are not compatible >>>> with SI off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output due to >>>> frequency shift? Or? >>>> >>>> Howie >>>> Howie Michaelson >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ >>>> >>>> Sun Catcher >>>> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >>>> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >>>> 802-272-0004 >>>> >>>> On Mar 25, 2017 7:59 PM, "Tump" >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work >>>> around" that was discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I >>>> looked quickly but didn’t see it posted. You were going to >>>> install a RS 485 card/ module that had the soft ware to >>>> make it work. I found this out just as these “Newest latest >>>> n greatest inverters" were just coming out, looked at the >>>> manual, and much to my disappointment I had to send it back >>>> and educate my salesperson to this. Lucky for me I was able >>>> to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you don’t >>>> have any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least he was >>>> there 2 weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump >>>>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US / >>>>> 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or is >>>>> not supported by the Sunny Island in off-grid AC coupling >>>>> mode? The technical paper on the subject here >>>>> http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf >>>>> >>>>> does not list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper is >>>>> dated Feb '16. >>>>> >>>>> I sure hope they are because that paper shows they >>>>> discontinued support the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US / >>>>> 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US >>>>> / 7700TL-US series! Why!?? >>>>> >>>>> Hope you have good news for me! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>>> Village Power Design >>>>> Renewable Energy Design & Installation >>>>> Ecovillage Design Consultant >>>>> >>>>> Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 >>>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>>> 413-559-9763 >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> *Tump at swnl.net**www.SWNL.net* >>>>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >>>>> */ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >>>>> /**/207-832-7574 Cl. >>>>> 610-517-8401 /* >>>>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >>>>> >>>>> */ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>> /**//**/ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >>>>> /**/ >>>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>> /**/ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design >>> & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant NABCEPâ„¢ Certified >>> Solar PV Installer Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver >> email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update >> participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 27098 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 08:53:11 2017 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 06:53:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing. Its a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. We'd like to have these characteristics: 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) 2. Maintenance free 3. Able to be abused and bounce back 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near freezing temps over winter (with no usage) 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers What are some batteries you might recommend? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 09:10:13 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 07:10:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac; I think I'd be looking at high-end rack-mount AGMs, like Deka, HUP, and Outback. The low temperature issue is pushing the limit for Li-ion and Li-Fe. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 6:53 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string > ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing. Its > a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a > difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. > > We'd like to have these characteristics: > 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) > 2. Maintenance free > 3. Able to be abused and bounce back > 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) > 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be > able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged > 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size > 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near > freezing temps over winter (with no usage) > 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers > > What are some batteries you might recommend? > > Thanks in advance > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 09:33:11 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 09:33:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101d2a6fe$ae9c0450$0bd40cf0$@com> Mac, I have had good success using Full River AGM's in difficult situations. One system near the Canadian border here in Vermont had no homeowner care for two months in the winter. PV array became covered with snow and they had left their inverter on to run a refrigerator. Of course the batteries became discharged and they were in temperatures well below freezing. I was brought in to assess and service the situation. I found these 6v 250AH AGM's with about 4 volts each. I assumed they were ruined. Nope. I brought them back to my shop and warmed them up, charged them and then did a load test and they all tested out at or above manufacturer specs. They have been working well for another three years now. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 8:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Hi Wrenches, I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing. Its a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. We'd like to have these characteristics: 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) 2. Maintenance free 3. Able to be abused and bounce back 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near freezing temps over winter (with no usage) 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers What are some batteries you might recommend? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 10:35:38 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:35:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan Failure Message-ID: <002901d2a707$682153f0$3863fbd0$@com> Fellow Wrenches, I have an OutBack FX inverter (manufactured in 2011) with a flashing Red LED. The MATE warns "Internal Fan Failure Detected" . Before I call OutBack support I'd like to gain a little knowledge from you folks. . Will I be asked to send the inverter in, or can I get the internal fan sent out to me so I can repair it myself? . I used to perform internal power board swaps myself 10 or 12 yrs ago. . It's not on warranty so I'd be paying for the parts. Thanks for your time, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Mon Mar 27 10:57:24 2017 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 07:57:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan Failure In-Reply-To: <002901d2a707$682153f0$3863fbd0$@com> References: <002901d2a707$682153f0$3863fbd0$@com> Message-ID: <69B2A7D9-F7F5-4997-ABAB-396B84DDA153@pacific.net> Dan, That is an Outback stock item called FX/GS fan kit I believe. Cost about 2$20 with additional SS replacement screws included for either inverter. I just changed one on an early model FX2524. Pretty simple change. They recommend doing it while it is on its back instead of on the wall and that does help the reassembly quite a bit. Good luck, Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co P O Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 future at pacific.net CA Lic.# C10-762093 707-459-0474 On Mar 27, 2017, at 7:35 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > Fellow Wrenches, > > I have an OutBack FX inverter (manufactured in 2011) with a flashing Red LED. The MATE warns "Internal Fan Failure Detected" . > Before I call OutBack support I'd like to gain a little knowledge from you folks. > · Will I be asked to send the inverter in, or can I get the internal fan sent out to me so I can repair it myself? > · I used to perform internal power board swaps myself 10 or 12 yrs ago. > · It's not on warranty so I'd be paying for the parts. > Thanks for your time, > Dave > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > 802-888-4917 home > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Mon Mar 27 11:40:02 2017 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:40:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan Failure In-Reply-To: References: <002901d2a707$682153f0$3863fbd0$@com> Message-ID: Dave, I've replaced a bunch of these - relatively easy (easier than the boards). If pulling it from the wall is a bigger job than you'd like, the internal fan can be replaced in the vertical position. Just make sure to not pinch the internal com cables as you replace the cover. Good luck! Howie Howie MMichaelso NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun CCatche Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 <(802)%20272-0004> On Mar 27, 2017 10:36 AM, "Dave Palumbo" wrote: > Fellow Wrenches, > > > > I have an OutBack FX inverter (manufactured in 2011) with a flashing Red > LED. The MATE warns "Internal Fan Failure Detected" . > > Before I call OutBack support I'd like to gain a little knowledge from you > folks. > > · Will I be asked to send the inverter in, or can I get the > internal fan sent out to me so I can repair it myself? > > · I used to perform internal power board swaps myself 10 or 12 > yrs ago. > > · It's not on warranty so I'd be paying for the parts. > > Thanks for your time, > > Dave > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 <(802)%20371-8678> cell > > 802-888-4917 <(802)%20888-4917> home > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 12:03:44 2017 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:03:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages Message-ID: <7b5a8552-a86c-64ea-0a3f-21a22bcdae28@gmail.com> Friends of mine got a Sunpower system installed last year. Ever since then they have had intermittent problems with circuits in their house going dead. The array is 14 each Sunpower SPR E20 327 C AC. The array is mounted on a corrugated steel roof on their garage, about 20 feet from the house. What happens is that a circuit in their house will either go dead or brown out so lights barely glow. This happens to various circuits and at any time of day or night. The rest of the circuits will work fine and the event will last an hour or two. The breakers don't trip. They have had two different electricians there to check the house wiring and it's all solid. Any ideas? Some kind of metal roof capacitance? Many thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 Tel: 802-223-6652 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Mar 27 09:52:33 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 07:52:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: <002101d2a6fe$ae9c0450$0bd40cf0$@com> References: <002101d2a6fe$ae9c0450$0bd40cf0$@com> Message-ID: <001401d2a701$629e67c0$27db3740$@solarwork.com> I have had several similar successes with the Full River L-16 style AGM batteries too. The only drawback is for larger bank capacities, pushing 12 & 16 batteries to a bank. Full River AGM get thumbs up in my book. For larger capacity, I have used the DEKA Unigy II also reconfigured the only real hassle is the horizontal install in a tight place is back breaker & a half. One note – the crawl space installation does not sound like it meets code……… Though I have been down there myself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Palumbo Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 7:33 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Mac, I have had good success using Full River AGM's in difficult situations. One system near the Canadian border here in Vermont had no homeowner care for two months in the winter. PV array became covered with snow and they had left their inverter on to run a refrigerator. Of course the batteries became discharged and they were in temperatures well below freezing. I was brought in to assess and service the situation. I found these 6v 250AH AGM's with about 4 volts each. I assumed they were ruined. Nope. I brought them back to my shop and warmed them up, charged them and then did a load test and they all tested out at or above manufacturer specs. They have been working well for another three years now. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 8:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Hi Wrenches, I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing. Its a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. We'd like to have these characteristics: 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) 2. Maintenance free 3. Able to be abused and bounce back 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near freezing temps over winter (with no usage) 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers What are some batteries you might recommend? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 27 11:18:57 2017 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:18:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <033401d2a70d$75150150$5f3f03f0$@sbcglobal.net> Iron Edison? Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 7:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Hi Wrenches, I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing. Its a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. We'd like to have these characteristics: 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) 2. Maintenance free 3. Able to be abused and bounce back 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near freezing temps over winter (with no usage) 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers What are some batteries you might recommend? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Mar 27 13:55:26 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:55:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages In-Reply-To: <7b5a8552-a86c-64ea-0a3f-21a22bcdae28@gmail.com> References: <7b5a8552-a86c-64ea-0a3f-21a22bcdae28@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3b741219515bdccea67bb916473414a6@mail.gmail.com> Strange one. I would be surprised if the PV system has anything to do with this. We’ve experienced strange electrical intermittent problems and they have almost always been related to grounding or neutral problems. I realize that two different electricians have checked out the site, but maybe they missed something like a loose neutral (check all the way back to the service point of connection). It might be worth calling the utility out as well incase their feed has problems. August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Hilton Dier III *Sent:* Monday, March 27, 2017 9:04 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages Friends of mine got a Sunpower system installed last year. Ever since then they have had intermittent problems with circuits in their house going dead. The array is 14 each Sunpower SPR E20 327 C AC. The array is mounted on a corrugated steel roof on their garage, about 20 feet from the house. What happens is that a circuit in their house will either go dead or brown out so lights barely glow. This happens to various circuits and at any time of day or night. The rest of the circuits will work fine and the event will last an hour or two. The breakers don't trip. They have had two different electricians there to check the house wiring and it's all solid. Any ideas? Some kind of metal roof capacitance? Many thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 Tel: 802-223-6652 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 14:18:26 2017 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:18:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 10 kW wind turbine Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I am looking into largish (for me) wind turbines in the 10-20 kW size. As of now Bergey seems to standout. Any other manufacturers that I should take a close look at in this size turbine? Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Mar 27 14:33:09 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:33:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan Failure In-Reply-To: <69B2A7D9-F7F5-4997-ABAB-396B84DDA153@pacific.net> References: <002901d2a707$682153f0$3863fbd0$@com> <69B2A7D9-F7F5-4997-ABAB-396B84DDA153@pacific.net> Message-ID: <42ac1002-78f1-58be-e639-d53a41c821fa@entech-engineering.com> I have had to replace two in six years. Pretty simpleto do. Takes about 30 to 45 minutes depending upon your level of arthritis..... Chris On 3/27/2017 10:57 AM, Wallace Stahle wrote: > Dan, > That is an Outback stock item called FX/GS fan kit I believe. Cost > about 2$20 with additional SS replacement screws included for either > inverter. > > I just changed one on an early model FX2524. Pretty simple change. > They recommend doing it while it is on its back instead of on the wall > and that does help the reassembly quite a bit. > > Good luck, > > Wallace Stahle > Future Electric Energy Co > P O Box 236 > Willits, CA 95490 > future at pacific.net > CA Lic.# C10-762093 > 707-459-0474 > > > > On Mar 27, 2017, at 7:35 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > >> Fellow Wrenches, >> I have an OutBack FX inverter (manufactured in 2011) with a flashing >> Red LED. The MATE warns "Internal Fan Failure Detected" . >> Before I call OutBack support I'd like to gain a little knowledge >> from you folks. >> ·Will I be asked to send the inverter in, or can I get the internal >> fan sent out to me so I can repair it myself? >> ·I used to perform internal power board swaps myself 10 or 12 yrs ago. >> ·It's not on warranty so I'd be paying for the parts. >> Thanks for your time, >> Dave >> David Palumbo >> Independent Power LLC >> 462 Solar Way Drive >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> 802-371-8678 cell >> 802-888-4917 home >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 16:39:34 2017 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:39:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 10 kW wind turbine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mac, Bergey Excel (10kw) and the Jacobs 3120 (20kw) are the only two decent machines I can recommend. They are both not without their minor issues, but all around, they work great as long as preventative maintenance is done. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I am looking into largish (for me) wind turbines in the 10-20 kW size. As > of now Bergey seems to standout. Any other manufacturers that I should > take a close look at in this size turbine? > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 27 16:46:48 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:46:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: <001401d2a701$629e67c0$27db3740$@solarwork.com> References: <002101d2a6fe$ae9c0450$0bd40cf0$@com> <001401d2a701$629e67c0$27db3740$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hi Mac; That system sounds like a couple of systems I looked at last year. SW inverters and the batteries back in a crawl space with (surprise) no watering. We ended up decommissioning one of those, as the new owner was no longer interested in solar backup. The crawl space definitely doesn't meet code, and doesn't meet even my basic 3rd world sensibility either. Using sealed batteries is not an excuse, it still needs to be somewhat 110.26 compliant to check cell voltages and replace batteries. Just removing those old L 16s from the crawl space is nasty, dangerous work. My guess is this would be subject to OSHA rules for hazardous, enclosed spaces as well. First plan to relocate the batteries, then lets have a discussion on what brand is going to be used. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 3/27/17 7:52 AM, Dana wrote: > > I have had several similar successes with the Full River L-16 style > AGM batteries too. The only drawback is for larger bank capacities, > pushing 12 & 16 batteries to a bank. > > Full River AGM get thumbs up in my book. > > For larger capacity, I have used the DEKA Unigy II also reconfigured > the only real hassle is the horizontal install in a tight place is > back breaker & a half. > > One note – the crawl space installation does not sound like it meets > code……… Though I have been down there myself. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Dave Palumbo > *Sent:* Monday, March 27, 2017 7:33 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] High End battery > > Mac, > > I have had good success using Full River AGM's in difficult > situations. One system near the Canadian border here in Vermont had no > homeowner care for two months in the winter. PV array became covered > with snow and they had left their inverter on to run a refrigerator. > Of course the batteries became discharged and they were in > temperatures well below freezing. I was brought in to assess and > service the situation. I found these 6v 250AH AGM's with about 4 volts > each. I assumed they were ruined. > > Nope. I brought them back to my shop and warmed them up, charged them > and then did a load test and they all tested out at or above > manufacturer specs. They have been working well for another three > years now. > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 cell > > 802-888-4917 home > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Monday, March 27, 2017 8:53 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] High End battery > > Hi Wrenches, > > I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string > ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is > failing. Its a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located > in a difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got > watered. > > We'd like to have these characteristics: > > 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) > > 2. Maintenance free > > 3. Able to be abused and bounce back > > 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) > > 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to > be able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged > > 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size > > 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand > near freezing temps over winter (with no usage) > > 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers > > What are some batteries you might recommend? > > Thanks in advance > -- > > Mac Lewis** > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates*** > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 17:05:50 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:05:50 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac Take a look at these batteries V2energysystems.com Jerry On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 2:53 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string > ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing. Its > a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a > difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. > > We'd like to have these characteristics: > 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) > 2. Maintenance free > 3. Able to be abused and bounce back > 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) > 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be > able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged > 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size > 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near > freezing temps over winter (with no usage) > 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers > > What are some batteries you might recommend? > > Thanks in advance > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Mar 27 18:10:29 2017 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:10:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: <002101d2a6fe$ae9c0450$0bd40cf0$@com> References: <002101d2a6fe$ae9c0450$0bd40cf0$@com> Message-ID: <04E817F3-4661-400C-9DAB-D15B1B69292F@starlightsolar.com> I want to 2nd David’s recommendation for Fullriver. 6 years and many pallet loads sold, only one failure covered by warranty. 7 year warranty when used in RE systems. Best AGM battery we have ever sold. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 27, 2017, at 6:33 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Mac, I have had good success using Full River AGM's in difficult situations. One system near the Canadian border here in Vermont had no homeowner care for two months in the winter. PV array became covered with snow and they had left their inverter on to run a refrigerator. Of course the batteries became discharged and they were in temperatures well below freezing. I was brought in to assess and service the situation. I found these 6v 250AH AGM's with about 4 volts each. I assumed they were ruined. Nope. I brought them back to my shop and warmed them up, charged them and then did a load test and they all tested out at or above manufacturer specs. They have been working well for another three years now. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon Mar 27 14:57:51 2017 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:57:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages In-Reply-To: <7b5a8552-a86c-64ea-0a3f-21a22bcdae28@gmail.com> References: <7b5a8552-a86c-64ea-0a3f-21a22bcdae28@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00eb01d2a72c$099672a0$1cc357e0$@solarwindworks.com> I’ve seen half of a 200A DP main CB fail intermittently, causing some circuits to go down then come back on at various times. Then on one service call out to diagnose this strange set of partial blackouts, I heard an internal click while standing next to it, after checking every wire in every panel of this large off grid system. The breaker handles didn’t trip though. A very hard one to figure out. We swapped it out and no more partial black outs. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier III Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 9:04 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages Friends of mine got a Sunpower system installed last year. Ever since then they have had intermittent problems with circuits in their house going dead. The array is 14 each Sunpower SPR E20 327 C AC. The array is mounted on a corrugated steel roof on their garage, about 20 feet from the house. What happens is that a circuit in their house will either go dead or brown out so lights barely glow. This happens to various circuits and at any time of day or night. The rest of the circuits will work fine and the event will last an hour or two. The breakers don't trip. They have had two different electricians there to check the house wiring and it's all solid. Any ideas? Some kind of metal roof capacitance? Many thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 Tel: 802-223-6652 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Mar 27 19:49:06 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 17:49:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages In-Reply-To: <3b741219515bdccea67bb916473414a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <7b5a8552-a86c-64ea-0a3f-21a22bcdae28@gmail.com> <3b741219515bdccea67bb916473414a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006c01d2a754$b98a8480$2c9f8d80$@solarwork.com> Check for a loose neutral. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 11:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages Strange one. I would be surprised if the PV system has anything to do with this. We’ve experienced strange electrical intermittent problems and they have almost always been related to grounding or neutral problems. I realize that two different electricians have checked out the site, but maybe they missed something like a loose neutral (check all the way back to the service point of connection). It might be worth calling the utility out as well incase their feed has problems. August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier III Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 9:04 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages Friends of mine got a Sunpower system installed last year. Ever since then they have had intermittent problems with circuits in their house going dead. The array is 14 each Sunpower SPR E20 327 C AC. The array is mounted on a corrugated steel roof on their garage, about 20 feet from the house. What happens is that a circuit in their house will either go dead or brown out so lights barely glow. This happens to various circuits and at any time of day or night. The rest of the circuits will work fine and the event will last an hour or two. The breakers don't trip. They have had two different electricians there to check the house wiring and it's all solid. Any ideas? Some kind of metal roof capacitance? Many thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 Tel: 802-223-6652 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon Mar 27 15:13:07 2017 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:13:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f301d2a72e$2b0863b0$81192b10$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Mac, I do like the Concorde SunXtender AGM batteries, first one I bought in 2002 is still ticking, it sits in the yard built into a rolling tool case with a ProStar-15 on a 20 watt module and an Exeltech 250 w inverter, charging my gen set’s charging battery. (most nights here in Truckee go well below freezing). I’d go to their L16 sized AGM 2V PVX-12150-HT that’s rated to 1215 Ahr’s at the 24 hour rate. Put in two or three strings max. I don’t like to see batteries in tight crawl spaces though, even with these it’s best to check the torque (70 inch pounds) on occasion, check for corrosion ( I use a high temp lithium wheel bearing grease to slather up the cable ends and terminals prior to installation), and be able to read individual cell voltages and terminal temps. See if there is a better location. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Hi Wrenches, I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing. Its a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. We'd like to have these characteristics: 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) 2. Maintenance free 3. Able to be abused and bounce back 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near freezing temps over winter (with no usage) 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers What are some batteries you might recommend? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 08:35:59 2017 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:35:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: <00f301d2a72e$2b0863b0$81192b10$@solarwindworks.com> References: <00f301d2a72e$2b0863b0$81192b10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Thanks for the opinions. I am aware crawl space is not ideal for all sorts of reasons. I can't get into this cabin until late May or June and I don't remember the layout real well. Best case scenario is that we will be able to relocate the batteries. Regardless of battery location, I need a battery that is resilient, and can take minimal homeowner interaction, and cool temps through the winter. My initial thought was a set of AGMs as well. My only real concern with them is if we had a PV failure mid-winter and the batteries were sitting without a charge for 6 months, so I was looking to see if there was a chemistry that this wouldn't be a concern. Thanks On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > Hi Mac, > > I do like the Concorde SunXtender AGM batteries, first one I bought in > 2002 is still ticking, it sits in the yard built into a rolling tool case > with a ProStar-15 on a 20 watt module and an Exeltech 250 w inverter, > charging my gen set’s charging battery. (most nights here in Truckee go > well below freezing). > > I’d go to their L16 sized AGM 2V PVX-12150-HT that’s rated to 1215 Ahr’s > at the 24 hour rate. Put in two or three strings max. > > I don’t like to see batteries in tight crawl spaces though, even with > these it’s best to check the torque (70 inch pounds) on occasion, check for > corrosion ( I use a high temp lithium wheel bearing grease to slather up > the cable ends and terminals prior to installation), and be able to read > individual cell voltages and terminal temps. See if there is a better > location. > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 <(530)%20582-4503> > > Cell 530-448-9692 <(530)%20448-9692> > > Fax 530-582-4603 <(530)%20582-4603> > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Monday, March 27, 2017 5:53 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] High End battery > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string > ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing. Its > a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a > difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. > > > > We'd like to have these characteristics: > > 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) > > 2. Maintenance free > > 3. Able to be abused and bounce back > > 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) > > 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be > able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged > > 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size > > 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near > freezing temps over winter (with no usage) > > 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers > > > > What are some batteries you might recommend? > > > > Thanks in advance > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 28 14:09:49 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:09:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages In-Reply-To: <006c01d2a754$b98a8480$2c9f8d80$@solarwork.com> References: <7b5a8552-a86c-64ea-0a3f-21a22bcdae28@gmail.com> <3b741219515bdccea67bb916473414a6@mail.gmail.com> <006c01d2a754$b98a8480$2c9f8d80$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <53eea8fa-1cec-b6a5-c0b6-04c3cd24393a@solarray.com> An IR camera may be helpful. FIir has some really affordable models now, I have the TG 167 which is plenty of resolution for electrical. They can find problems in load centers really fast; we found an overloaded neutral the other day we would not have noticed otherwise. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 3/27/17 5:49 PM, Dana wrote: > > Check for a loose neutral. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Monday, March 27, 2017 11:55 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages > > Strange one. I would be surprised if the PV system has anything to do > with this. We’ve experienced strange electrical intermittent problems > and they have almost always been related to grounding or neutral > problems. I realize that two different electricians have checked out > the site, but maybe they missed something like a loose neutral (check > all the way back to the service point of connection). It might be > worth calling the utility out as well incase their feed has problems. > > August > > Luminalt > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Hilton Dier III > *Sent:* Monday, March 27, 2017 9:04 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages > > Friends of mine got a Sunpower system installed last year. Ever since > then they have had intermittent problems with circuits in their house > going dead. > > The array is 14 each Sunpower SPR E20 327 C AC. The array is mounted > on a corrugated steel roof on their garage, about 20 feet from the house. > > What happens is that a circuit in their house will either go dead or > brown out so lights barely glow. This happens to various circuits and > at any time of day or night. The rest of the circuits will work fine > and the event will last an hour or two. The breakers don't trip. They > have had two different electricians there to check the house wiring > and it's all solid. > > Any ideas? Some kind of metal roof capacitance? > > Many thanks, > > Hilton > > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > 453 East Hill Rd. > Middlesex, VT 05602 > Tel: 802-223-6652 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 14:59:35 2017 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:59:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High end batteries Message-ID: <76D14360-89AF-4078-8F5B-33AAA3293DD5@gmail.com> Hi Mac You say that relocating the batteries is a best case scenario. I'd say that it is the minimum scenario for your continued participation. I've said it before, but the most important client is the one you turn away. If this client doesn't want to get this system brought up to both NEC standards and good sense design, then that is your signal to politely bail out. Otherwise it's just going to be an ongoing failure for which you'll take the blame. Good luck Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Solar Gain, LLC Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From hathasolar at yahoo.com Tue Mar 28 09:18:52 2017 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (wes kennedy) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:18:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: References: <00f301d2a72e$2b0863b0$81192b10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <1513610527.6672223.1490707132106@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Gang, Anyone familiar with this Silicon Salt battery being carried from Backwoods Solar? Colorado Zeke Yewdall has specified a set for a remote cabin. Adventurous customer... Specifically calls out cold temp performance.  http://www.backwoodssolar.com/products/batteries-accessories/batteries/silicon-salt-battery-6v-220ah  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 From: Mac Lewis To: RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 6:36 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Hi Wrenches, Thanks for the opinions.  I am aware crawl space is not ideal for all sorts of reasons.  I can't get into this cabin until late May or June and I don't remember the layout real well.  Best case scenario is that we will be able to relocate the batteries.  Regardless of battery location, I need a battery that is resilient, and can take minimal homeowner interaction, and cool temps through the winter.  My initial thought was a set of AGMs as well.  My only real concern with them is if we had a PV failure mid-winter and the batteries were sitting without a charge for 6 months, so I was looking to see if there was a chemistry that this wouldn't be a concern. Thanks On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: Hi Mac,I do like the Concorde SunXtender AGM batteries, first one I bought in 2002 is still ticking, it sits in the yard built into a rolling tool case with a ProStar-15 on a 20 watt module and an Exeltech 250 w inverter, charging my gen set’s charging battery. (most nights here in Truckee go well below freezing).I’d go to their L16 sized AGM 2V PVX-12150-HT that’s rated to 1215 Ahr’s at the 24 hour rate. Put in two or three strings max. I don’t like to see batteries in tight crawl spaces though, even with these it’s best to check the torque (70 inch pounds) on occasion, check for corrosion ( I use a high temp lithium wheel bearing grease to slather up the cable ends and terminals prior to installation), and be able to read individual cell voltages and terminal temps. See if there is a better location. Chris WorcesterSolar Wind WorksNABCEP Certified PV InstallerOffice 530-582-4503Cell 530-448-9692Fax 530-582-4603www.solarwindworks.comchris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@ lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Hi Wrenches, I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing.  Its a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. We'd like to have these characteristics:1.  Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space)2.  Maintenance free3.  Able to be abused and bounce back4.  Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably)5.  In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged6.  Need about 30-40 kWh bank size7.  Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near freezing temps over winter (with no usage)8.  Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers What are some batteries you might recommend? Thanks in advance --    Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 23:05:28 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:05:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages In-Reply-To: <53eea8fa-1cec-b6a5-c0b6-04c3cd24393a@solarray.com> References: <7b5a8552-a86c-64ea-0a3f-21a22bcdae28@gmail.com> <3b741219515bdccea67bb916473414a6@mail.gmail.com> <006c01d2a754$b98a8480$2c9f8d80$@solarwork.com> <53eea8fa-1cec-b6a5-c0b6-04c3cd24393a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Seek Thermal also has some nice, inexpensive thermal imagers that attach to smartphones. Paid for the $250 cost on its first battery bank service call. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Ray wrote: > An IR camera may be helpful. FIir has some really affordable models now, > I have the TG 167 which is plenty of resolution for electrical. They can > find problems in load centers really fast; we found an overloaded neutral > the other day we would not have noticed otherwise. > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> > > On 3/27/17 5:49 PM, Dana wrote: > > Check for a loose neutral. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Monday, March 27, 2017 11:55 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages > > > > Strange one. I would be surprised if the PV system has anything to do with > this. We’ve experienced strange electrical intermittent problems and they > have almost always been related to grounding or neutral problems. I realize > that two different electricians have checked out the site, but maybe they > missed something like a loose neutral (check all the way back to the > service point of connection). It might be worth calling the utility out as > well incase their feed has problems. > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Hilton Dier III > *Sent:* Monday, March 27, 2017 9:04 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sunpower micros and mysterious outages > > > > Friends of mine got a Sunpower system installed last year. Ever since then > they have had intermittent problems with circuits in their house going dead. > > The array is 14 each Sunpower SPR E20 327 C AC. The array is mounted on a > corrugated steel roof on their garage, about 20 feet from the house. > > What happens is that a circuit in their house will either go dead or brown > out so lights barely glow. This happens to various circuits and at any time > of day or night. The rest of the circuits will work fine and the event will > last an hour or two. The breakers don't trip. They have had two different > electricians there to check the house wiring and it's all solid. > > Any ideas? Some kind of metal roof capacitance? > > Many thanks, > > Hilton > > -- > > Hilton Dier III > > Missisquoi River Hydro > > Renewable Energy Design > > 453 East Hill Rd. > > Middlesex, VT 05602 > > Tel: 802-223-6652 <(802)%20223-6652> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Tue Mar 28 12:10:18 2017 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:10:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery In-Reply-To: References: <00f301d2a72e$2b0863b0$81192b10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <00c601d2a7dd$ce2d4510$6a87cf30$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Mac, We have at least three off grid high elevation inaccessible systems in Euer Valley that are buried into the spring, since the beginning of November this year, all using the Deka AGM’s or Concorde AGM’s. They go about 9 to 10 years before we need to replace them. One has a ground mount array that is disassembled and put out of the 10 to 20 feet of snow this Sierra crest valley usually receives, this year over 600 inches easily. The cross country ski area is still in full swing, hope we can drive in by June… Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 5:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Hi Wrenches, Thanks for the opinions. I am aware crawl space is not ideal for all sorts of reasons. I can't get into this cabin until late May or June and I don't remember the layout real well. Best case scenario is that we will be able to relocate the batteries. Regardless of battery location, I need a battery that is resilient, and can take minimal homeowner interaction, and cool temps through the winter. My initial thought was a set of AGMs as well. My only real concern with them is if we had a PV failure mid-winter and the batteries were sitting without a charge for 6 months, so I was looking to see if there was a chemistry that this wouldn't be a concern. Thanks On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: Hi Mac, I do like the Concorde SunXtender AGM batteries, first one I bought in 2002 is still ticking, it sits in the yard built into a rolling tool case with a ProStar-15 on a 20 watt module and an Exeltech 250 w inverter, charging my gen set’s charging battery. (most nights here in Truckee go well below freezing). I’d go to their L16 sized AGM 2V PVX-12150-HT that’s rated to 1215 Ahr’s at the 24 hour rate. Put in two or three strings max. I don’t like to see batteries in tight crawl spaces though, even with these it’s best to check the torque (70 inch pounds) on occasion, check for corrosion ( I use a high temp lithium wheel bearing grease to slather up the cable ends and terminals prior to installation), and be able to read individual cell voltages and terminal temps. See if there is a better location. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] High End battery Hi Wrenches, I've got a customer that has an older off-grid system with a 5 string ~2000 Ahr (No I didn't install this) L16 battery bank that is failing. Its a Trace SW 4024 system where the batteries are located in a difficult-to-access crawl space where I'm sure they never got watered. We'd like to have these characteristics: 1. Modular (need to be able to get them to the crawl space) 2. Maintenance free 3. Able to be abused and bounce back 4. Compatible with an Outback MX 60 charge controller (preferably) 5. In case of charge controller failure, we'd like the batteries to be able to go over the winter with no charge and not be damaged 6. Need about 30-40 kWh bank size 7. Able to withstand cool temps (operate decently at 45F) withstand near freezing temps over winter (with no usage) 8. Price tag isn't a big constraint with these customers What are some batteries you might recommend? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 31 13:26:15 2017 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:26:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] compatible sensors Kyocera CD 300 solar pump controller Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know if there are compatible well sensors that would work with an older Kyocera CD300 solar pump controller? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Mon Apr 3 14:22:56 2017 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 21:22:56 +0300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] compatible sensors Kyocera CD 300 solar pump controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60F8B261-9F4A-4418-BBFD-02E97B049381@mac.com> Call SunPumps. They were originally the SolarJack Corp, sold to Kyocera, and eventually they acquired it back from them (!) and are now SunPumps. So they will know exactly what to use and can supply it to you. Tell ‘em I said so. Windy Dankoff Co-author: Solar Water Pumping, Earthscan Expert Series, Taylor & Francis, for late 2017 > > 1. compatible sensors Kyocera CD 300 solar pump controller > (Mac Lewis) > > From: Mac Lewis > Subject: [RE-wrenches] compatible sensors Kyocera CD 300 solar pump controller > Date: March 31, 2017 at 8:26:15 PM GMT+3 > To: RE-wrenches > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know if there are compatible well sensors that would work with an older Kyocera CD300 solar pump controller? > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Tue Apr 4 17:49:43 2017 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 14:49:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NM Cable temp rating, ampacity, application Message-ID: <20170404144943.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.563e70727e.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Hi Wrenchers, I recently butted heads with an old school electrician who has been scrutinizing a recent install (fully permitted & PTO'd last year) and I wonder how applicable and valid his concerns are. I'm not interested in an ego war with this guy; I just want to be code-compliant and safe. This sparky (let's call him Karl) has questioned my electrician's (let's call him Dave) use of NM cable on the AC side of the solar install. The first issue that Karl raised was that Dave installed Romex for our supply-side connection, i.e., from our fused disconnect to the Polaris vampire clamps on the feeder conductors between the meter and the main disco. Karl contends that the Romex, by extension off of the utility feeders, is now a service entrance conductor and that NEC Article 334.12 dictates that Romex cannot be used as service entrance conductors. Wondering how you all might interpret this scenario. (note: We have the opportunity to pull new conductors, should the consensus be that we violated the NEC) The second issue is that Dave ran 6AWG Romex from the fused disconnect to the main breaker in the combining subpanel and landed the circuit on a 70A breaker. The inverter circuit is rated at max current of 50A continuous. Karl is telling us that the #6 Romex is rated at 60 degrees and 55 amps. It is my understanding that all NM cable is now rated at 90 degrees. However, I also understand that there may be some merit to Karl's assessment regarding limited ampacity of the 6AWG Romex. Can someone illuminate this issue for me as to whether or not NM cable is rated at 90 degrees AND therefore a 6AWG conductor in NM cable would have a 75A rating? Cheers, Eric SunHarvest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Apr 4 19:17:04 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 16:17:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NM Cable temp rating, ampacity, application In-Reply-To: <20170404144943.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.563e70727e.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> References: <20170404144943.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.563e70727e.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi Eric, Regarding the supply side connection, check out this article: http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2013/11/16/supply-side-pv-connections-a-closer-look/ Check out 2014 NEC 230.50 – I don’t think NM is allowed. In our neck of the woods we need to use RMC or IMC. Secondly, I’d recommend referring to the NM cable’s spec sheet to determine ampacity. Also see NEC 334.80 which limits the ampacity to 60 deg C. 50 A x 1.25 = 62.5, so your NM has to be rated at this or higher. http://www.southwire.com/products/RomexSIMpullTypeNMBOEM.htm - regular NM 60 deg rated #6 55 A I’m not familiar with 90 degree NM. August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *eric at harvesthesun.com *Sent:* Tuesday, April 04, 2017 2:50 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] NM Cable temp rating, ampacity, application Hi Wrenchers, I recently butted heads with an old school electrician who has been scrutinizing a recent install (fully permitted & PTO'd last year) and I wonder how applicable and valid his concerns are. I'm not interested in an ego war with this guy; I just want to be code-compliant and safe. This sparky (let's call him Karl) has questioned my electrician's (let's call him Dave) use of NM cable on the AC side of the solar install. The first issue that Karl raised was that Dave installed Romex for our supply-side connection, i.e., from our fused disconnect to the Polaris vampire clamps on the feeder conductors between the meter and the main disco. Karl contends that the Romex, by extension off of the utility feeders, is now a service entrance conductor and that NEC Article 334.12 dictates that Romex cannot be used as service entrance conductors. Wondering how you all might interpret this scenario. (note: We have the opportunity to pull new conductors, should the consensus be that we violated the NEC) The second issue is that Dave ran 6AWG Romex from the fused disconnect to the main breaker in the combining subpanel and landed the circuit on a 70A breaker. The inverter circuit is rated at max current of 50A continuous. Karl is telling us that the #6 Romex is rated at 60 degrees and 55 amps. It is my understanding that all NM cable is now rated at 90 degrees. However, I also understand that there may be some merit to Karl's assessment regarding limited ampacity of the 6AWG Romex. Can someone illuminate this issue for me as to whether or not NM cable is rated at 90 degrees AND therefore a 6AWG conductor in NM cable would have a 75A rating? Cheers, Eric SunHarvest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 4 22:50:28 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 20:50:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NM Cable temp rating, ampacity, application In-Reply-To: References: <20170404144943.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.563e70727e.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <099d770e-9990-4ae1-ac15-ff89b66bea8b@solarray.com> August; Thanks for pointing out some of those code references, I'm always learning new things. In case Eric's situation is not subject to physical damage (as covered in 230.50) I found that 230.43 lists many more allowable options for service entrance wiring, but NM still is not on the list. I think the confusion may be with the definition of "Feeder". Eric wrote that they tapped into the "feeder" between the Meter and the Main disconnect. I may be mistaken, but technically that is not a feeder; it would be considered a service conductor. Service conductors are from the utility to the main disconnect (service equipment), while feeders are all the conductors after the Service equipment. I think the Old school guy might have won that one. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master Electrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 4/4/17 5:17 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > Regarding the supply side connection, check out this article: > http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2013/11/16/supply-side-pv-connections-a-closer-look/ > > Check out 2014 NEC 230.50 – I don’t think NM is allowed. In our neck > of the woods we need to use RMC or IMC. > > Secondly, I’d recommend referring to the NM cable’s spec sheet to > determine ampacity. Also see NEC 334.80 which limits the ampacity to > 60 deg C. > > 50 A x 1.25 = 62.5, so your NM has to be rated at this or higher. > > http://www.southwire.com/products/RomexSIMpullTypeNMBOEM.htm - regular > NM 60 deg rated #6 55 A > > I’m not familiar with 90 degree NM. > > August > > Luminalt > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *eric at harvesthesun.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 04, 2017 2:50 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] NM Cable temp rating, ampacity, application > > Hi Wrenchers, > > I recently butted heads with an old school electrician who has been > scrutinizing a recent install (fully permitted & PTO'd last year) and > I wonder how applicable and valid his concerns are. I'm not interested > in an ego war with this guy; I just want to be code-compliant and > safe. This sparky (let's call him Karl) has questioned my > electrician's (let's call him Dave) use of NM cable on the AC side of > the solar install. > > The first issue that Karl raised was that Dave installed Romex for our > supply-side connection, i.e., from our fused disconnect to the Polaris > vampire clamps on the feeder conductors between the meter and the main > disco. Karl contends that the Romex, by extension off of the utility > feeders, is now a service entrance conductor and that NEC Article > 334.12 dictates that Romex cannot be used as service entrance > conductors. Wondering how you all might interpret this scenario. > (note: We have the opportunity to pull new conductors, should the > consensus be that we violated the NEC) > > The second issue is that Dave ran 6AWG Romex from the fused disconnect > to the main breaker in the combining subpanel and landed the circuit > on a 70A breaker. The inverter circuit is rated at max current of 50A > continuous. Karl is telling us that the #6 Romex is rated at 60 > degrees and 55 amps. It is my understanding that all NM cable is now > rated at 90 degrees. However, I also understand that there may be some > merit to Karl's assessment regarding limited ampacity of the 6AWG > Romex. Can someone illuminate this issue for me as to whether or not > NM cable is rated at 90 degrees AND therefore a 6AWG conductor in NM > cable would have a 75A rating? > > Cheers, > > Eric > > SunHarvest > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Apr 5 10:05:19 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 10:05:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series? In-Reply-To: References: <58D69658.5020809@villagepowerdesign.com> <4F91702F-07DB-4F3A-B3E0-B4A3FAD6164E@swnl.net> <58D70F68.7000601@villagepowerdesign.com> <3cf3785c-6e5e-343d-7370-2c9991aeda51@solarray.com> <1871579e-94a9-9b80-9c54-dcf3a1085790@solarray.com> Message-ID: I realize this is a technical listserv, but it is interesting to compare the US practices with Europe's in this area. When one looks at the genesis of Rapid Shutdown, and how already it is changing with the most recent NECs, I see the solutions not helpful from an owner's, installers, and minimally from a firefighter's perspective. What would really help firefighters is if the System Directoryincluded the current information AND system type: MicroInverter/AC Module, String w/oRPS, String w/ RPS, and Bimodal. It would provide firefighters with information on their level of exposure, far better than what exists today. We are adding this information to our directories. Chris On 3/26/2017 3:05 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > > Battery based rapid shut down is not simple. Much of it is up to the > AHJ. You can shut down the AC output or the battery or both. Shunt > trip battery breakers do not cost much more than regular battery > breakers. You do need to control them though. That is what the > Birdhouse and MNbattery disconnect module was designed to do. Yes, > generators can also be shut down with the Birdhouse. > > You may be able to use the upcoming Little SOB [Shut Off Box] soon > just to shut down the PV array for battery based systems. The cost is > very minimal, but you will still have to deal with PV input capacitor > discharge times. Maybe 2 Little SOB’s, one on each end? They are very > inexpensive. I do not mean to sound like a sales pitch here, but it > seems like we are the only people working on solutions that fit these > needs, so you need to know about them. MidNite has about the only > solution at present for battery based shut down. You have all said it > costs too much and is too complicated. We have listened. > > Robin Gudgel > > *MidNite solar* > > > > On 3/26/2017 12:00 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT breakers, >> control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for wiring and >> testing. I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of cost. Not a big deal >> on large systems but for a smaller off grid project in the $10K >> range, its a huge increase in cost. Folks are just going to go DIY >> with junk off the internet, and the code is now under the bus. >> >> We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV array >> circuit, not the inverter and battery output. Which has at least >> kept refrigerators and heating system on during a trip. However, >> because charge controllers hold residual voltage in capacitors after >> the array is disconnected, we have had to add RT breakers at the >> charge controllers to comply with the 30 v in 10 sec rule. >> >> My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer must go >> onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to restore power. >> IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer safety in the name of fire >> fighter safety, not a fair bargain at all. There are numerous >> nuisance faults that require reset, (CAT 5 loose connection or >> induced noise, faulty 9 v battery, naughty neighbor) Firefighters >> will probably only ever be on site to strap our poor customer to a >> back board after they fall off the roof in the snow trying to reset >> their new 690.12 compliant system. >> >> R. Ray Walters >> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com >> BS Mech Engineering, 1988 >> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 >> Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these battery-based projects >>> are getting killed here locally? Is it the misinterpretation by AHJs >>> that 690.12 has to disconnect the inverter from the battery bank >>> with giant shunt-trip breakers? If that were the case...backup >>> generators would have to be controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I >>> don't think that can of worms has been opened yet. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ray >> > wrote: >>> >>> Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system deal with >>> 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and GTB arrangements? >>> 690.12 has been killing battery based projects left and right >>> here in Colorado. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> R. Ray Walters >>> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com >>> BS Mech Engineering, 1988 >>> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 >>> Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>>> Hi Howie, >>>> >>>> So Jay found this from previous posts (below). So apparently >>>> the -40 series will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you >>>> program the SBs separately to be in OG) but won't do the >>>> switching of modes necessary for grid-tie backup. I plan on a >>>> call to SMA tech support Monday morning to get to the bottom of >>>> what exactly is lost without the RS485 comm. And to see if TLs >>>> are still going to work as the new SIs tech sheet shows they >>>> are not supported. why I have no idea but I intend to find out. >>>> >>>> hope that helps. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>> >>>>> *From: *Drake >>>> > >>>>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling* >>>>> *Date: *March 13, 2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT >>>>> *To: *RE-wrenches >>>> > >>>>> *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches >>>> > >>>>> >>>>> I talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new Sunny Boy >>>>> inverters will provide taper charging with the Sunny Islands >>>>> even though no RS 485 communication is available. The Sunny >>>>> Boys need to be programmed in the off grid mode, and the Sunny >>>>> Islands will take care of the UL 1741 requirements. >>>>> >>>>> The graph below shows the relation between frequency shift and >>>>> % power produced by the Sunny Boy inverters. >>>>> Emacs! >>>>> >>>>> Drake Chamberlin >>>>> /Athens Electric LLC >>>>> OH License 44810 >>>>> CO License 3773 >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>>> 740-448-7328 >>>>> /http://athens-electric.com/ >>>>> At 11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote: >>>>> I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for >>>>> the -40 inverters. What this means is that you can set them up >>>>> to be permanently in off grid mode where the SB will follow >>>>> the frequency shift of the SI, ok for an off grid system. But >>>>> for grid tie with backup, the SB will not communicate with the >>>>> SI and will not change the SB to off grid mode. It will still >>>>> work like other generic AC coupled systems where the frequency >>>>> shift will cause the SB inverter to drop off line, but as far >>>>> as I know no throttling back will happen. >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>> >>>> >>>> Howie Michaelson wrote: >>>>> I'm confused. Does this mean the -40 series are not compatible >>>>> with SI off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output due to >>>>> frequency shift? Or? >>>>> >>>>> Howie >>>>> Howie Michaelson >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ >>>>> >>>>> Sun Catcher >>>>> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >>>>> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >>>>> 802-272-0004 >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 25, 2017 7:59 PM, "Tump" >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work >>>>> around" that was discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I >>>>> looked quickly but didn’t see it posted. You were going to >>>>> install a RS 485 card/ module that had the soft ware to >>>>> make it work. I found this out just as these “Newest >>>>> latest n greatest inverters" were just coming out, looked >>>>> at the manual, and much to my disappointment I had to send >>>>> it back and educate my salesperson to this. Lucky for me I >>>>> was able to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you >>>>> don’t have any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least >>>>> he was there 2 weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump >>>>>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater >>>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> All, >>>>>> >>>>>> Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US / >>>>>> 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or >>>>>> is not supported by the Sunny Island in off-grid AC >>>>>> coupling mode? The technical paper on the subject here >>>>>> http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> does not list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper >>>>>> is dated Feb '16. >>>>>> >>>>>> I sure hope they are because that paper shows they >>>>>> discontinued support the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US / >>>>>> 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US >>>>>> / 7700TL-US series! Why!?? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hope you have good news for me! >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>>>> Village Power Design >>>>>> Renewable Energy Design & Installation >>>>>> Ecovillage Design Consultant >>>>>> >>>>>> Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 >>>>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>>>> 413-559-9763 >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> *Tump at swnl.net**www.SWNL.net* >>>>>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >>>>>> */ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >>>>>> /**/207-832-7574 Cl. >>>>>> 610-517-8401 /* >>>>>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >>>>>> >>>>>> */ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>>> /**//**/ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >>>>>> /**/ >>>>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>>> /**/ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design >>>> & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant NABCEPâ„¢ Certified >>>> Solar PV Installer Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 >>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>> 413-559-9763 >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored >>> by Redwood Alliance List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver >>> email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> Check out or update >>> participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 27098 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Thu Apr 6 13:35:58 2017 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 10:35:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? Message-ID: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Wrenches, We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older installs. About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor of the much more pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap connectors in our combiners. About a year ago we transitioned, about 80% away from Polaris to Buchannon connectors. We have had two recent call-backs on systems downed due to Polaris connectors burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the connector itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone else seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue regarding a Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the realm of isolated flukes. Eric SunHarvest (530) 559-5023 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Apr 6 13:57:18 2017 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:57:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi Eric, I had this happen on one install. I assumed that it was due to insufficient terminal torque. I use the Polaris torque specs and my torqueing screwdriver now on all Polaris connectors and have not had any more issues (yet). Kris On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:35 PM, wrote: > Wrenches, > > We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older installs. > About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor of the much more > pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap connectors in our combiners. > About a year ago we transitioned, about 80% away from Polaris to Buchannon > connectors. We have had two recent call-backs on systems downed due to > Polaris connectors burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the > connector itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm > that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone else > seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue regarding a > Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the realm of isolated > flukes. > > Eric > SunHarvest > (530) 559-5023 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 14:07:16 2017 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 14:07:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Chris, I have had Polaris connectors fail in combiners and inside Main Service Panels. I immediately quit using them.. That was about 5 years ago. I didn't trust wire nuts either as I have had them meltdown. I'm a split bolt junky now. They never fail unless you don't wrap enough insulation around them. Had one split bolt arc and pit the metal box but no problem with the connection. John Blittersdorf Rob Stubbins Solar Rutland, VT On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi Eric, > > I had this happen on one install. I assumed that it was due to > insufficient terminal torque. I use the Polaris torque specs and my > torqueing screwdriver now on all Polaris connectors and have not had any > more issues (yet). > > Kris > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:35 PM, wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older installs. >> About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor of the much more >> pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap connectors in our combiners. >> About a year ago we transitioned, about 80% away from Polaris to Buchannon >> connectors. We have had two recent call-backs on systems downed due to >> Polaris connectors burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the >> connector itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm >> that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone else >> seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue regarding a >> Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the realm of isolated >> flukes. >> >> Eric >> SunHarvest >> (530) 559-5023 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 <(715)%20653-4295> > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Apr 6 15:17:41 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Chris, I had this happen once about six years ago. We do torque to specs, but anything is possible. We have been using Burndy products for the past five years and have zero problems with them. They are actually just a little bit less in cost than Polaris. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Penobscot Solar Design > Chris, > I have had Polaris connectors fail in combiners and inside Main Service > Panels. I immediately quit using them.. That was about 5 years ago. I > didn't trust wire nuts either as I have had them meltdown. I'm a split > bolt junky now. They never fail unless you don't wrap enough insulation > around them. Had one split bolt arc and pit the metal box but no problem > with the connection. > > John Blittersdorf > Rob Stubbins Solar > Rutland, VT > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> Hi Eric, >> >> I had this happen on one install. I assumed that it was due to >> insufficient terminal torque. I use the Polaris torque specs and my >> torqueing screwdriver now on all Polaris connectors and have not had any >> more issues (yet). >> >> Kris >> >> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:35 PM, wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older installs. >>> About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor of the much more >>> pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap connectors in our >>> combiners. >>> About a year ago we transitioned, about 80% away from Polaris to >>> Buchannon >>> connectors. We have had two recent call-backs on systems downed due to >>> Polaris connectors burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the >>> connector itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install >>> firm >>> that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone else >>> seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue regarding a >>> Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the realm of isolated >>> flukes. >>> >>> Eric >>> SunHarvest >>> (530) 559-5023 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 <(715)%20653-4295> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Apr 6 15:33:46 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:33:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <20170406193422.54FEE1115A@che.dreamhost.com> Be aware of the application of the correct model of Polaris (grey) when used on finely stranded conductors, like the original Engage trunk cables. I have seen many failures due to this problem. -----Original Message----- From: "eric at harvesthesun.com" Sent: ‎4/‎6/‎2017 13:35 To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: "geoff at third-sun.com" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? Wrenches, We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older installs. About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor of the much more pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap connectors in our combiners. About a year ago we transitioned, about 80% away from Polaris to Buchannon connectors. We have had two recent call-backs on systems downed due to Polaris connectors burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the connector itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone else seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue regarding a Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the realm of isolated flukes. Eric SunHarvest (530) 559-5023 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Apr 6 17:21:25 2017 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 17:21:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Did they torque the polaris terminals to the proper setting? I'd be willing to bet they didn't which is why they're failing. On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 1:35 PM, wrote: > Wrenches, > > We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older installs. > About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor of the much more > pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap connectors in our combiners. > About a year ago we transitioned, about 80% away from Polaris to Buchannon > connectors. We have had two recent call-backs on systems downed due to > Polaris connectors burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the > connector itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm > that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone else > seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue regarding a > Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the realm of isolated > flukes. > > Eric > SunHarvest > (530) 559-5023 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer [image: Inline image 3] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 16761 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Apr 6 18:19:21 2017 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 22:19:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module search Message-ID: Anyone have any Poly CSIs in the 250-260w range? Looking for three. please contact me off list. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 09:36:18 2017 From: rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 07:36:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? Message-ID: Eric, I am aware of a similar experience. Knowing the PV will hopefully be in place and without maintenance needs for decades does seem to warrant putting the most robust connector in place. Inverter errors is what first identified the problem. We did question the supplier to see if anyone else was having trouble, thinking perhaps it was a bad batch with some kind of defect? The only thing we could come up with is that perhaps the wrong size screwdriver for securing the wires could cause it. Some brands require an allen wrench (which now makes sense to me) but the brand we had was a straight-head screw. We found that a slightly too big screwdriver worked for the first few turns but then hit the rim inside the insulated connector and wouldn't fully tighten the wire down. IF that were the cause then it was essentially arcing because of a loose connection. However, a pull test on the wire would have discovered a loose connection AND analyzing several of the incidences we saw each seemed to have very tight wire connections, so I'm not convinced this was the problem. Your post is the first I've read of anyone else having this trouble, but I think most installers use wire nuts. Rebecca Lundberg Wrenches, > > We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older installs. > About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor of the much more > pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap connectors in our combiners. > About a year ago we transitioned, about 80% away from Polaris to Buchannon > connectors. We have had two recent call-backs on systems downed due to > Polaris connectors burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the > connector itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm > that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone else > seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue regarding a > Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the realm of isolated > flukes. > > Eric > SunHarvest > (530) 559-5023 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Apr 7 09:55:51 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 06:55:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All – I’ve never been a fan of splice block style connectors for rooftop junction or combiner splices. They are expensive, bulky, and questionably rated for wet locations. They are also easy to forget to tighten all the way which will definitely lead to arc failures. It sounds like Eric has switched over to splice cap crimp connectors. We have too and haven’t looked back. I highly suggest that everyone still using wire nuts or splice blocks to try these out: http://www.idealind.com/ideal-electrical/us/en/products/wire-termination/60-crimp-connectors/copper-splice-cap-crimp-connectors.aspx Among other sources, Amazon is a fairly easy way to try them out by getting some splices, insulator caps, and the matching crimp tool. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebecca Lundberg *Sent:* Friday, April 07, 2017 6:36 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? Eric, I am aware of a similar experience. Knowing the PV will hopefully be in place and without maintenance needs for decades does seem to warrant putting the most robust connector in place. Inverter errors is what first identified the problem. We did question the supplier to see if anyone else was having trouble, thinking perhaps it was a bad batch with some kind of defect? The only thing we could come up with is that perhaps the wrong size screwdriver for securing the wires could cause it. Some brands require an allen wrench (which now makes sense to me) but the brand we had was a straight-head screw. We found that a slightly too big screwdriver worked for the first few turns but then hit the rim inside the insulated connector and wouldn't fully tighten the wire down. IF that were the cause then it was essentially arcing because of a loose connection. However, a pull test on the wire would have discovered a loose connection AND analyzing several of the incidences we saw each seemed to have very tight wire connections, so I'm not convinced this was the problem. Your post is the first I've read of anyone else having this trouble, but I think most installers use wire nuts. Rebecca Lundberg Wrenches, We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older installs. About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor of the much more pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap connectors in our combiners. About a year ago we transitioned, about 80% away from Polaris to Buchannon connectors. We have had two recent call-backs on systems downed due to Polaris connectors burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the connector itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone else seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue regarding a Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the realm of isolated flukes. Eric SunHarvest (530) 559-5023 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 20515 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 90430 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 252893 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 7 11:15:13 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:15:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8063d39d-efa5-6bbd-781f-9fda34573d49@entech-engineering.com> We have used all mentioned here. If you use the crimp and cap method, whatdo you do to "waterproof" the connection? Same question with the other splice type connectors.Some inspectors will not allow this connector to be used in this type of connection if it is made in an outside JB. Thanks for any insight. Chris Warfel On 4/7/2017 9:55 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi All – > > I’ve never been a fan of splice block style connectors for rooftop > junction or combiner splices. They are expensive, bulky, and > questionably rated for wet locations. They are also easy to forget to > tighten all the way which will definitely lead to arc failures. > > It sounds like Eric has switched over to splice cap crimp connectors. > We have too and haven’t looked back. I highly suggest that everyone > still using wire nuts or splice blocks to try these out: > > http://www.idealind.com/ideal-electrical/us/en/products/wire-termination/60-crimp-connectors/copper-splice-cap-crimp-connectors.aspx > > Among other sources, Amazon is a fairly easy way to try them out by > getting some splices, insulator caps, and the matching crimp tool. > > August > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Rebecca Lundberg > *Sent:* Friday, April 07, 2017 6:36 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > Eric, > > I am aware of a similar experience. Knowing the PV will hopefully be > in place and without maintenance needs for decades does seem to > warrant putting the most robust connector in place. Inverter errors is > what first identified the problem. We did question the supplier to see > if anyone else was having trouble, thinking perhaps it was a bad batch > with some kind of defect? The only thing we could come up with is that > perhaps the wrong size screwdriver for securing the wires could cause > it. Some brands require an allen wrench (which now makes sense to me) > but the brand we had was a straight-head screw. We found that a > slightly too big screwdriver worked for the first few turns but then > hit the rim inside the insulated connector and wouldn't fully tighten > the wire down. IF that were the cause then it was essentially arcing > because of a loose connection. However, a pull test on the wire would > have discovered a loose connection AND analyzing several of the > incidences we saw each seemed to have very tight wire connections, so > I'm not convinced this was the problem. Your post is the first I've > read of anyone else having this trouble, but I think most installers > use wire nuts. > > Rebecca Lundberg > > Wrenches, > > We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older > installs. About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor > of the much more pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap > connectors in our combiners. About a year ago we transitioned, > about 80% away from Polaris to Buchannon connectors. We have had > two recent call-backs on systems downed due to Polaris connectors > burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the connector > itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm > that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone > else seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue > regarding a Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the > realm of isolated flukes. > > Eric > SunHarvest > (530) 559-5023 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 20515 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 90430 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 252893 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Apr 7 11:53:35 2017 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 09:53:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Onsite label maker Message-ID: <5793FC57-F55E-4285-AEBA-9D241B9D6BB6@skyfireenergy.com> Wrenches, What are you using for an onsite label maker, as opposed to labels you have pre made or ordered? I'm in the market for a new one. I've been using a Brady IDxpert ( https://www.bradyid.com/en-us/products/printers-barcode-scanners-and-laminators/portable-printers-and-accessories/idxpert-labeling-printer-and-accessories ) that has been discontinued however the cartridges are still available. Some things I didn't like about this one was.... -- that the small screen display made it impossible to oversee the entire label before printing it, so it was difficult to know if, for example, your numbers were lining up on different lines...meaning if you were listing voltages and currents, each on its own line, then it was difficult to get the numbers to line up (if you care about a neat looking label, which I do) --it creates a lot of waste material like unprinted label material before and after the printed portion. The cartridges are not cheap so that doesn't help. --it is not very user-friendly until you are quite familiar with it...to get the font sizes right, bold/regular font, and the above mentioned issue with lining things up. This again, creates a lot of wasted label material. Cheers, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 7 12:09:06 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 12:09:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Onsite label maker In-Reply-To: <5793FC57-F55E-4285-AEBA-9D241B9D6BB6@skyfireenergy.com> References: <5793FC57-F55E-4285-AEBA-9D241B9D6BB6@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <64e1562c-dd88-9ee6-ada6-14477fe7934a@entech-engineering.com> I have been using the DuroPro label printer. We print the labels in the office and take them to the site. Good flexibility with minimal waste. Thesoftware is clunky, but you can definitely get thelabel you want. Good technical support. We have been printing in white lettering on red background, which really works for most inspectors and label requirements. Chris On 4/7/2017 11:53 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Wrenches, > What are you using for an onsite label maker, as opposed to labels you > have pre made or ordered? > I'm in the market for a new one. > > I've been using a Brady IDxpert ( > https://www.bradyid.com/en-us/products/printers-barcode-scanners-and-laminators/portable-printers-and-accessories/idxpert-labeling-printer-and-accessories ) > that has been discontinued however the cartridges are still available. > > Some things I didn't like about this one was.... > -- that the small screen display made it impossible to oversee the > entire label before printing it, so it was difficult to know if, for > example, your numbers were lining up on different lines...meaning if > you were listing voltages and currents, each on its own line, then it > was difficult to get the numbers to line up (if you care about a neat > looking label, which I do) > --it creates a lot of waste material like unprinted label material > before and after the printed portion. The cartridges are not cheap so > that doesn't help. > --it is not very user-friendly until you are quite familiar with > it...to get the font sizes right, bold/regular font, and the above > mentioned issue with lining things up. This again, creates a lot of > wasted label material. > > Cheers, > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Apr 8 12:10:13 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2017 12:10:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08 .mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <20170408161020.E700910073@che.dreamhost.com> At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: >Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone >back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type connection does not. When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial installation of the equipment. On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Apr 8 13:05:59 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:05:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <20170408161020.E700910073@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <20170408161020.E700910073@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20170408170604.88FA8100C3@che.dreamhost.com> It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions would be a NEC violation. -----Original Message----- From: "Drake" Sent: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: >Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone >back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type connection does not. When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial installation of the equipment. On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Apr 8 14:00:20 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Off Grid Solar) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 11:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <20170408170604.88FA8100C3@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <20170408161020.E700910073@che.dreamhost.com> <20170408170604.88FA8100C3@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <08046073125bd5852e718ad58d9b160b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> New member warning! I try to never use anything that I can't see the wire and how it is crushed at torque. Easy to check later. I think folks that use a torque wrench or by feel are rushed. The idea is to slowly bring the torque up on a connection. I like split kearny or just the regular bus bar at home depot. Cut it to length that you need (number of wires) and tape it. The bus bar is listed and comes with data for an inspector. The Polaris looks nice but I can't see the wire. For underground a kearny and the right electrical tape is fine. I try and use a JB for protection of the joint. Dave Angelini / Offgrid Solar http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals > specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. > Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions > would be a NEC violation. > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Drake" > Sent: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 > To: "RE-wrenches" > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > > At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: >>Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone >>back to wire nuts due to this same problem. > > > Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a > spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the > years. A screw type connection does not. > > When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under > the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. > Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after > the initial installation of the equipment. > > On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to > tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are > prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these > connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with > no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. > > With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good > connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is > good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely > under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum > under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the > purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be > in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 14:05:14 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:05:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <08046073125bd5852e718ad58d9b160b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <20170408161020.E700910073@che.dreamhost.com> <20170408170604.88FA8100C3@che.dreamhost.com> <08046073125bd5852e718ad58d9b160b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: With screw connections I've always used the "torque to spec, wait at least one hour, torque again" rule. I usually wait overnight for the re-torques, then commission. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Apr 8 17:48:30 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 14:48:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <20170408170604.88FA8100C3@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <20170408161020.E700910073@che.dreamhost.com> <20170408170604.88FA8100C3@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Wrenches: I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all know splices are a weak link. We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be necessary. If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our web site or contact me off list. William > On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. > Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions would be a NEC violation. > From: Drake > Sent: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > > At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: >> Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. > > Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type connection does not. > > When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial installation of the equipment. > > On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. > > With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sun Apr 9 08:16:25 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 08:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <20170408161020.E700910073@che.dreamhost.com> <20170408170604.88FA8100C3@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <10fa7836d53ed52af648b9914af3f949.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> William, The only place we use splicing is in the transition box, where we transition from USE/RHW or PV wire to THWN in conduit. We almost always have this transition in smaller systems without need of a combiner box. I suspect it is the same for others. In larger systems there is no need for splicing anywhere with the use of combiner boxes. Daryl > Wrenches: > > I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all know > splices are a weak link. > > We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- > be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one > side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. > > If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be > necessary. > > If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at > our web site or contact me off list. > > William > >> On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> >> It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals >> specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. >> Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions >> would be a NEC violation. >> From: Drake >> Sent: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? >> >> >> At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: >>> Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone >>> back to wire nuts due to this same problem. >> >> Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. >> The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw >> type connection does not. >> >> When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the >> screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often >> they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the >> initial installation of the equipment. >> >> On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to >> tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone >> to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections >> have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to >> follow the cold flow of the metal. >> >> With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good >> connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is >> good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely >> under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a >> wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless >> specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof >> box, and preferably taped. >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Apr 9 11:12:06 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Off Grid Solar) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 08:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <10fa7836d53ed52af648b9914af3f949.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <20170406103558.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.ac5aabcb08.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <20170408161020.E700910073@che.dreamhost.com> <20170408170604.88FA8100C3@che.dreamhost.com> <10fa7836d53ed52af648b9914af3f949.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <04223e95ba5d56ae29baf1a134fc3abc.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> It is always ideal to not have to splice except when the reality of coming in on a job that is old work, someone who did not follow basic code requirements, an insurance situation, an existing equipment upgrade, an insurance situation, a remote home, a really remote home you had to fly to, a 2000 foot run to an array and you hit granite, or Telcom. I could remember a few more with some time. I almost always use a Square D 3phase HV disco at the array and that is my combiner/JB/transition. I can safely connect 2 strings and many KW of solar all in one box. Add the fuses and 3 strings in one box. That is ideal for me! Sometimes ideal is the goal that is not always achieved:) > William, > The only place we use splicing is in the transition box, where we > transition from USE/RHW or PV wire to THWN in conduit. We almost always > have this transition in smaller systems without need of a combiner box. > I suspect it is the same for others. In larger systems there is no need > for splicing anywhere with the use of combiner boxes. > > Daryl > > > >> Wrenches: >> >> I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all >> know >> splices are a weak link. >> >> We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder >> destination-- >> be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one >> side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. >> >> If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not >> be >> necessary. >> >> If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at >> our web site or contact me off list. >> >> William >> >>> On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: >>> >>> It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals >>> specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. >>> Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation >>> instructions >>> would be a NEC violation. >>> From: Drake >>> Sent: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? >>> >>> >>> At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: >>>> Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone >>>> back to wire nuts due to this same problem. >>> >>> Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. >>> The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw >>> type connection does not. >>> >>> When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under >>> the >>> screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often >>> they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the >>> initial installation of the equipment. >>> >>> On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to >>> tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone >>> to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections >>> have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to >>> follow the cold flow of the metal. >>> >>> With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good >>> connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is >>> good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely >>> under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under >>> a >>> wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless >>> specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather >>> proof >>> box, and preferably taped. >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> Athens Electric LLC >>> OH License 44810 >>> CO License 3773 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> 740-448-7328 >>> http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From eric at harvesthesun.com Mon Apr 10 15:48:37 2017 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 12:48:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20170410124837.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.db96885df2.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and are not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and they recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. However, I'm going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led me astray! Eric Stikes SunHarvest --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? From: "William Miller" Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm To: "RE-wrenches" Wrenches: I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all know splices are a weak link. We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be necessary. If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our web site or contact me off list. William On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions would be a NEC violation. From: Drake Sent: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type connection does not. When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial installation of the equipment. On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Mon Apr 10 16:24:28 2017 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:24:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <20170410124837.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.db96885df2.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> References: <20170410124837.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.db96885df2.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi all, We also like making these splices with MC connectors. We already have the tools and parts, installers are good at it, the connection is solid, and it has the added bonus of improving maintenance/troubleshooting/commissioning because the splice is easy to separate and check. We used to use split bolts, but cutting open all of the tape to megger the homeruns is a pain. The only downside to the MC connector method for small numbers of strings is that you need a larger j-box to accommodate them. For a handful of strings, use a short 4x4 gutter. Blake Blake Gleason, PE, LEED AP Director of Engineering Sun Light & Power | 1035 Folger Avenue | Berkeley, CA 94710 Office: (510) 845-2997 Direct: (510) 809-3691 The best businesses don’t just turn a profit—they’re a force for good. That’s why we’re proud to be a *2015 Best for the World honoree. *See our site for more details . This e-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named recipient(s) above, and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not a named recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail message from your computer. Thank you. On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 12:48 PM, wrote: > Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I > will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten > their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type > connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what > he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and > are not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and > they recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. > However, I'm going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led > me astray! > > Eric Stikes > SunHarvest > > > > --------- Original Message --------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > From: "William Miller" > Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm > To: "RE-wrenches" > > > Wrenches: > > I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all know > splices are a weak link. > > We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- > be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one > side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. > > If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be > necessary. > > If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at > our web site or contact me off list. > > William > > On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals > specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. > Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions > would be a NEC violation. > ------------------------------ > From: Drake > Sent: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > > At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: > > Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back > to wire nuts due to this same problem. > > > Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The > spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type > connection does not. > > When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the > screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they > are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial > installation of the equipment. > > On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten > all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out > of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness > of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of > the metal. > > With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good > connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good > to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the > spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut > unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically > listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and > preferably taped. > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <(740)%20448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ > options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. > htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Apr 10 19:44:45 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 19:44:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <20170410124837.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.db96885df2.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> References: <20170410124837.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.db96885df2.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <5eb6b2064db61d0f4aedd9387259a4bf@entech-engineering.com> I haven't seen a reply regarding the NEC requirement (by some AHJs), that all of these connectors, except waterproof connectors cannot be used in outside JBs. Has anyone else run into this? Thanks for any insight. Chris On 2017-04-10 15:48, eric at harvesthesun.com wrote: > Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and are not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and they recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. However, I'm going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led me astray! > > Eric Stikes > SunHarvest > > --------- Original Message --------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > From: "William Miller" > Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm > To: "RE-wrenches" > > Wrenches: > > I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all know splices are a weak link. > > We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. > > If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be necessary. > > If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our web site or contact me off list. > > William > > On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. > Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions would be a NEC violation. > > ------------------------- > From: Drake > Sent: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: > Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. > > Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type connection does not. > > When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial installation of the equipment. > > On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. > > With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > [1] > Virus-free. www.avast.com [2] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] Links: ------ [1] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [2] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link [3] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Apr 11 09:46:20 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 06:46:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <5eb6b2064db61d0f4aedd9387259a4bf@entech-engineering.com> References: <20170410124837.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.db96885df2.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <5eb6b2064db61d0f4aedd9387259a4bf@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <3f426ada70c9dfbad1fe95fe27d67481@mail.gmail.com> Hi Chris, I’ve contacted Ideal about the suitability for their copper crimp connectors to be used in outdoor locations in approved junction boxes. Their response was that they are listed to UL 486C and are designed to be used in approved outdoor boxes. I’ll forward the email to you off list. That said, they do not have the dielectric silicone grease that an outdoor wire nut has and if a J-box fills with water then there could be a potential fault between adjacent conductors or to ground. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *cwarfel at entech-engineering.com *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2017 4:45 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? I haven't seen a reply regarding the NEC requirement (by some AHJs), that all of these connectors, except waterproof connectors cannot be used in outside JBs. Has anyone else run into this? Thanks for any insight. Chris On 2017-04-10 15:48, eric at harvesthesun.com wrote: Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and are not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and they recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. However, I'm going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led me astray! Eric Stikes SunHarvest --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? From: "William Miller" Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm To: "RE-wrenches" Wrenches: I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all know splices are a weak link. We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be necessary. If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our web site or contact me off list. William On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions would be a NEC violation. ------------------------------ *From: *Drake *Sent: *‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 *To: *RE-wrenches *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type connection does not. When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial installation of the equipment. On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. Drake Chamberlin *Athens Electric LLC* *OH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328* http://athens-electric.com/ [image: Image removed by sender.] Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Apr 11 09:50:48 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 09:50:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <3f426ada70c9dfbad1fe95fe27d67481@mail.gmail.com> References: <20170410124837.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.db96885df2.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <5eb6b2064db61d0f4aedd9387259a4bf@entech-engineering.com> <3f426ada70c9dfbad1fe95fe27d67481@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <071f91ed413a08a5dc0a086cddcc8d92@entech-engineering.com> Thank you, I appreciate the information. I will check this out and send it along to the inspecting company. Chris On 2017-04-11 09:46, August Goers wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've contacted Ideal about the suitability for their copper crimp connectors to be used in outdoor locations in approved junction boxes. Their response was that they are listed to UL 486C and are designed to be used in approved outdoor boxes. I'll forward the email to you off list. > > That said, they do not have the dielectric silicone grease that an outdoor wire nut has and if a J-box fills with water then there could be a potential fault between adjacent conductors or to ground. > > August > > FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF cwarfel at entech-engineering.com > SENT: Monday, April 10, 2017 4:45 PM > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > I haven't seen a reply regarding the NEC requirement (by some AHJs), that all of these connectors, except waterproof connectors cannot be used in outside JBs. Has anyone else run into this? Thanks for any insight. Chris > > On 2017-04-10 15:48, eric at harvesthesun.com wrote: > > Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and are not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and they recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. However, I'm going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led me astray! > > Eric Stikes > > SunHarvest > > --------- Original Message --------- > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > From: "William Miller" > Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm > To: "RE-wrenches" > > Wrenches: > > I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all know splices are a weak link. > > We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. > > If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be necessary. > > If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our web site or contact me off list. > > William > > On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. > Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions would be a NEC violation. > > ------------------------- > > FROM: Drake > SENT: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: > > Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. > > Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type connection does not. > > When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial installation of the equipment. > > On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. > > With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. > > Drake Chamberlin > _Athens Electric LLC_ > _OH License 44810_ > _CO License 3773_ > _NABCEP Certified Solar PV _ > _740-448-7328_ > http://athens-electric.com/ [1] > > [2] > > Virus-free. www.avast.com [3] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] Links: ------ [1] http://athens-electric.com/ [2] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [3] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Apr 11 10:13:11 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:13:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <3f426ada70c9dfbad1fe95fe27d67481@mail.gmail.com> References: <20170410124837.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.db96885df2.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <5eb6b2064db61d0f4aedd9387259a4bf@entech-engineering.com> <3f426ada70c9dfbad1fe95fe27d67481@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <53523811ce2e459c2eb66b627d65b532@mail.gmail.com> As a related note, the 2014 NEC has an addition that allows field-installed drainage holes in junction boxes: We’ve found that installing drain or weep holes is a very good idea to keep water from accumulating in outdoor boxes and conduit bodies. August *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, April 11, 2017 6:46 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? Hi Chris, I’ve contacted Ideal about the suitability for their copper crimp connectors to be used in outdoor locations in approved junction boxes. Their response was that they are listed to UL 486C and are designed to be used in approved outdoor boxes. I’ll forward the email to you off list. That said, they do not have the dielectric silicone grease that an outdoor wire nut has and if a J-box fills with water then there could be a potential fault between adjacent conductors or to ground. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *cwarfel at entech-engineering.com *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2017 4:45 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? I haven't seen a reply regarding the NEC requirement (by some AHJs), that all of these connectors, except waterproof connectors cannot be used in outside JBs. Has anyone else run into this? Thanks for any insight. Chris On 2017-04-10 15:48, eric at harvesthesun.com wrote: Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and are not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and they recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. However, I'm going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led me astray! Eric Stikes SunHarvest --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? From: "William Miller" Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm To: "RE-wrenches" Wrenches: I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all know splices are a weak link. We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be necessary. If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our web site or contact me off list. William On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions would be a NEC violation. ------------------------------ *From: *Drake *Sent: *‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 *To: *RE-wrenches *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type connection does not. When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial installation of the equipment. On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. Drake Chamberlin *Athens Electric LLC* *OH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328* http://athens-electric.com/ [image: Image removed by sender.] Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 32128 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Apr 11 16:38:07 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:38:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? In-Reply-To: <53523811ce2e459c2eb66b627d65b532@mail.gmail.com> References: <20170410124837.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.db96885df2.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> <5eb6b2064db61d0f4aedd9387259a4bf@entech-engineering.com> <3f426ada70c9dfbad1fe95fe27d67481@mail.gmail.com> <53523811ce2e459c2eb66b627d65b532@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59d2dd0f04921f5d1e9f2ccfd70e1a16@entech-engineering.com> The problem installers are having is the interpretation by two different entities: 1) the AHJ, and 2) the program compliance inspector. They don't always have the same interpretation and the installer gets caught in the middle. The installer does not want to antagonize either. >From what I gather in this thread, waterproof wire twist connectors, of which I believe seem to be the most "waterproof", but not the best assured long-term connector will meet the program compliance inspector's needs, but not be the best from most of what I read from the installers. Most installers prefer the multi-port connectors. I will be contacting the program compliance inspectors and see if they will take another look at this problem. Thanks for everyone's input. Chris On 2017-04-11 10:13, August Goers wrote: > As a related note, the 2014 NEC has an addition that allows field-installed drainage holes in junction boxes: > > We've found that installing drain or weep holes is a very good idea to keep water from accumulating in outdoor boxes and conduit bodies. > > August > > FROM: August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] > SENT: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 6:46 AM > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: RE: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > Hi Chris, > > I've contacted Ideal about the suitability for their copper crimp connectors to be used in outdoor locations in approved junction boxes. Their response was that they are listed to UL 486C and are designed to be used in approved outdoor boxes. I'll forward the email to you off list. > > That said, they do not have the dielectric silicone grease that an outdoor wire nut has and if a J-box fills with water then there could be a potential fault between adjacent conductors or to ground. > > August > > FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF cwarfel at entech-engineering.com > SENT: Monday, April 10, 2017 4:45 PM > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > I haven't seen a reply regarding the NEC requirement (by some AHJs), that all of these connectors, except waterproof connectors cannot be used in outside JBs. Has anyone else run into this? Thanks for any insight. Chris > > On 2017-04-10 15:48, eric at harvesthesun.com wrote: > > Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and are not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and they recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. However, I'm going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led me astray! > > Eric Stikes > > SunHarvest > > --------- Original Message --------- > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > From: "William Miller" > Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm > To: "RE-wrenches" > > Wrenches: > > I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads? We all know splices are a weak link. > > We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer. > > If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be necessary. > > If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our web site or contact me off list. > > William > > On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. > Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions would be a NEC violation. > > ------------------------- > > FROM: Drake > SENT: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10 > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? > > At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: > > Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. > > Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type connection does not. > > When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial installation of the equipment. > > On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the metal. > > With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. > > Drake Chamberlin > _Athens Electric LLC_ > _OH License 44810_ > _CO License 3773_ > _NABCEP Certified Solar PV _ > _740-448-7328_ > http://athens-electric.com/ [1] > > [2] > > Virus-free. www.avast.com [3] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] Links: ------ [1] http://athens-electric.com/ [2] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [3] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 32128 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Apr 11 21:37:13 2017 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 01:37:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Galvo 3.1 manual Message-ID: Hello I'm reaching out to an SMA rep on the list to contact me off list. I have a client in need of a hard copy of the operators manual for his new Galvo 3.1 inverter. Missing in the box. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Apr 11 21:38:17 2017 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 01:38:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Galvo 3.1 manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Opps. I mean Fronius ! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > On Apr 11, 2017, at 7:37 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > Hello > I'm reaching out to an SMA rep on the list to contact me off list. > I have a client in need of a hard copy of the operators manual for his new Galvo 3.1 inverter. > Missing in the box. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From matthewsirum at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 00:32:34 2017 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 00:32:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? Message-ID: Greetings All, I too have tried all of the methods discussed so far in this thread. With regard to multi port tap block type connectors, I have used the Burndy Unitap product the most and have had good results. I like that they come with anti-oxide compound already in them and that the set screws have hex/allen socket heads. I may have had one or two of the set screws strip or come misaligned from the factory over the years, but have not found any major failures or arcing/burning. Overall I've had a good experience with the Burndy Unitap. I have used the Ideal/Buchanan Splice Cap Crimp Connectors in some applications, but have not used them outdoors... I thought at one time I came across some literature for the nylon Splice Cap Insulators used on these which indicated there may be an environmental temperature rating related issue when considering them for PV install work. I'm looking for this spec now, but have not found it. All I find now regarding temperature is "Temperature Rating: 105° C (221°F)". Seems like using the Splice Cap Crimp Connectors with an appropriately rated quality heat shrink tubing product instead of the Splice Cap Insulator may also be a potential solution. I have used electrical rubber insulating tape, electrical silicone insulating tape, and electrical insulating mastic tapes to insulate and seal many various uninsulated connectors and etc too... Always with an application of quality electrical tape over them as well. USE-2/PV Wire with MC Connector connected to THWN-2 with MC Connector has worked well for me as well in a wire transition/junction box. The MC insulator boot sized for PV Wire may have been somewhat oversized for the THWN-2 conductor. It's always good to review the specs for the connector product and the specs for the wire to ensure all will be appropriately mated up in the field. I have used butt splice crimp connectors with integrated insulating shrink tubing such as the Molex Perma-Seal products. When used with the appropriate full cycle ratcheting crimping tool these make a very nice connection. Some of the butt splice connectors work well for transitioning from fine stranded wire to standard stranded THWN-2 conductors such as in the case of working with some of the micro inverter trunk cable systems etc. I always apply a second layer of quality heat shrink tubing over the connector and its integrated shrink. The use of these products and heat shrink tubing means bringing a cord and heat gun or torch to the array install area to seal the heat shrink. I prefer a heat gun for better control and a lesser likelihood of burning the connector, shrink, wire, or something or someone. Either way I can understand many folks may not want to be dealing with heat shrink products or having their install crews doing so, especially up on a pitched roof installation. Some of the Molex Perma-Seal butt splice products have a connector barrel made of tined copper and a 600V rating. Molex identifies some of these products for use in "consumer" and "industrial" applications. Some have CSA and UL "certification" on their respective spec sheets, but I have not researched the certifications by number to say for certain if use in a PV system wire transition box or junction box is a truly acceptable and compliant use for the product. Have any of you researched or worked with these Perma-Seal or similar products? I am interested to learn more and fully understand what their acceptable application are. Other companies such as 3M and Power Phase sell similar products, but often what I find are products intended for the automotive and marine industry. I absolutely do not want to be using or suggesting automotive and marine products for use in professional, code compliant residential and commercial electrical work. Link to Molex Perma-Seal Products: http://www.molex.com/molex/products/family?key=heat_sealable_terminals&channel=products&chanName=family&pageTitle=Introduction&parentKey=solderless_terminals&utm_source=ds&utm_medium=lit&utm_campaign=ipd Also; glad to see drain/weep holes mentioned too! Even if water is not getting in to the box/enclosure/body we want to make sure any condensation that develops can drain out. About 10-12 years ago I had a project with a large outdoor wireway/trough/gutter which would hold small amounts of water even though a number of drain/weep holes were drilled in its bottom side... A seasoned and friendly Electrical Inspector showed me how to make "wicks" out of single strands of wire... Coiled the single strand flat to lay on the bottom inside of the trough with a straight section of the single strand going through a weep hole to draw any water out. I put a few of these in the trough... It looked a bit funky but it seemed to help. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com ------ Original Message Below ------ [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? eric at harvesthesun.com eric at harvesthesun.com Thu Apr 6 10:35:58 PDT 2017 Wrenches, We have been having Polaris connectors start to fail on older installs. About 4 or 5 years ago we abandoned wire nuts in favor of the much more pricey, but deemed safer Polaris insulated tap connectors in our combiners. About a year ago we transitioned, about 80% away from Polaris to Buchannon connectors. We have had two recent call-backs on systems downed due to Polaris connectors burning up inside of boxes. (No damage beyond the connector itself). Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to wire nuts due to this same problem. Anyone else seeing this? Wondering if this is an industry-wide issue regarding a Polaris manufacturing defect or if we're still in the realm of isolated flukes. Eric SunHarvest (530) 559-5023 From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 12 11:45:17 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:45:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Transfer switch Message-ID: <20170412154555.77B5810874@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know of a DC transfer switch or relay that is rated for 12 A at 300 VDC? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Apr 12 11:55:38 2017 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:55:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Transfer switch In-Reply-To: <20170412154555.77B5810874@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170412154555.77B5810874@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi Drake, We have been using Gigavac for high current DC switching a few years now. They also switch high voltage DC. Very reliable. See http://www.gigavac.com/catalog/power-products Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 12, 2017, at 8:45 AM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know of a DC transfer switch or relay that is rated for 12 A at 300 VDC? Thanks, Drake <>Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Apr 13 19:20:09 2017 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 16:20:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist Message-ID: <58F007A9.4050302@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 13 20:08:54 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:08:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist In-Reply-To: <58F007A9.4050302@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <58F007A9.4050302@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <8662aff1-4f18-69be-298a-6493a24bd1af@solarray.com> I'd add at least a small amount of DC coupled charging so that if the main AC trips off for any reason, the batteries will still get a charge. I've done a few SMA setups and having an heavy AC load or low battery situation shut down all battery charging is a serious problem with AC coupled setups. Sorry I don't have a Webbox. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 4/13/17 5:20 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Well I've designed and sold an 18 KW Sunny Island / Sunny Boy system > for the Carribean but SMA informs me that they have nothing to replace > the discontinued Sunny Webbox for another several months. > > I can't simply tell my customer - "oh by the way - you know that > cadillac system I sold you and am installing in June? oh the > manufacturer has no monitoring solution for you"! Especially after > repeating over and over again the most important part of any off-grid > system is the battery % gauge in the kitchen!!! > > So if anyone has a SUNNY WEBBOX out there - or knows where I can get > one. Please contact me OFFLIST. > > Thanks so! > > Best > > Jeff > -- > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > Renewable Energy Design & Installation > Ecovillage Design Consultant > > NABCEPâ„¢ Certified Solar PV Installer > Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 > www.villagepowerdesign.com > 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Apr 13 19:52:58 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:52:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist In-Reply-To: <58F007A9.4050302@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <58F007A9.4050302@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <20170413235306.6DE731030F@che.dreamhost.com> Can SolarLog meters read the SMA datastream? -----Original Message----- From: "Jeff Clearwater" Sent: ‎4/‎13/‎2017 19:20 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist Hi Folks, Well I've designed and sold an 18 KW Sunny Island / Sunny Boy system for the Carribean but SMA informs me that they have nothing to replace the discontinued Sunny Webbox for another several months. I can't simply tell my customer - "oh by the way - you know that cadillac system I sold you and am installing in June? oh the manufacturer has no monitoring solution for you"! Especially after repeating over and over again the most important part of any off-grid system is the battery % gauge in the kitchen!!! So if anyone has a SUNNY WEBBOX out there - or knows where I can get one. Please contact me OFFLIST. Thanks so! Best Jeff -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant NABCEP™ Certified Solar PV Installer Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 www.villagepowerdesign.com 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 14 08:34:41 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 06:34:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA & Solar-Log Message-ID: <000d01d2b51b$7da73420$78f59c60$@solarwork.com> Yes, I did 13 kw tracked system in SW Colorado in ’06-07? And the utility wanted a rev. grade meter. The SMA Sunny web-box box had crapped out 2 months past warranty & the owner was not interested in installing another. Solar-Log was very helpful during & after the installation. We did have the S-L meter go down & replacement was quick & I suspect to this day, lightning. We had 2 separate SMA inverters also go down on this site and lightning may have been a contributing factor though nothing was ever determined specifically. If the Sunny web box is not in manufacture any more, why would you go that route now? You will be replacing with a Solar-Log or other meter down the road. Solar-Log gets a thumbs up from me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:53 PM To: Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist Can SolarLog meters read the SMA datastream? _____ From: Jeff Clearwater Sent: ‎4/‎13/‎2017 19:20 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist Hi Folks, Well I've designed and sold an 18 KW Sunny Island / Sunny Boy system for the Carribean but SMA informs me that they have nothing to replace the discontinued Sunny Webbox for another several months. I can't simply tell my customer - "oh by the way - you know that cadillac system I sold you and am installing in June? oh the manufacturer has no monitoring solution for you"! Especially after repeating over and over again the most important part of any off-grid system is the battery % gauge in the kitchen!!! So if anyone has a SUNNY WEBBOX out there - or knows where I can get one. Please contact me OFFLIST. Thanks so! Best Jeff -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant NABCEP™ Certified Solar PV Installer Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 www.villagepowerdesign.com 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Apr 14 12:09:48 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Off Grid Solar) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 09:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA & Solar-Log In-Reply-To: <000d01d2b51b$7da73420$78f59c60$@solarwork.com> References: <000d01d2b51b$7da73420$78f59c60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <1a71ada907fb88edd4a622d3ecb8cc65.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I am going to take look at the web page. For now you are saying you can get most of the data from the "solar log" as the old Sunny comms? I really need to know if the battery charged yesterday and if it is trying to charge today. The rest of the data is nice but for remote monitoring this all I need. I have several Schneider comboxes that also take an opening from an AUX input and sends that out to the web as a closure/opening for a burgler alarm. Nice to have that also.... > Yes, I did 13 kw tracked system in SW Colorado in ’06-07? And the > utility wanted a rev. grade meter. The SMA Sunny web-box box had crapped > out 2 months past warranty & the owner was not interested in installing > another. Solar-Log was very helpful during & after the installation. > > > > We did have the S-L meter go down & replacement was quick & I suspect to > this day, lightning. We had 2 separate SMA inverters also go down on this > site and lightning may have been a contributing factor though nothing was > ever determined specifically. > > > > If the Sunny web box is not in manufacture any more, why would you go that > route now? You will be replacing with a Solar-Log or other meter down the > road. > > > > Solar-Log gets a thumbs up from me. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Glenn Burt > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:53 PM > To: Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist > > > > Can SolarLog meters read the SMA datastream? > > _____ > > From: Jeff Clearwater > Sent: ‎4/‎13/‎2017 19:20 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist > > Hi Folks, > > Well I've designed and sold an 18 KW Sunny Island / Sunny Boy system for > the Carribean but SMA informs me that they have nothing to replace the > discontinued Sunny Webbox for another several months. > > I can't simply tell my customer - "oh by the way - you know that cadillac > system I sold you and am installing in June? oh the manufacturer has no > monitoring solution for you"! Especially after repeating over and over > again the most important part of any off-grid system is the battery % > gauge in the kitchen!!! > > So if anyone has a SUNNY WEBBOX out there - or knows where I can get one. > Please contact me OFFLIST. > > Thanks so! > > Best > > Jeff > > -- > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > Renewable Energy Design & Installation > Ecovillage Design Consultant > > NABCEP™ Certified Solar PV Installer > Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 > www.villagepowerdesign.com > 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 14 13:50:12 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:50:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA & Solar-Log In-Reply-To: <1a71ada907fb88edd4a622d3ecb8cc65.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <000d01d2b51b$7da73420$78f59c60$@solarwork.com> <1a71ada907fb88edd4a622d3ecb8cc65.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <003301d2b547$91557cd0$b4007670$@solarwork.com> I am not a salesman for S-L but there are many-many options more than I needed that the meter could accommodate. Most of which I was not even aware of till we were doing setup. Please contact S-L for the long list. http://www.solar-log-america.com/us/service-support/supported-components/overview.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Off Grid Solar Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 10:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA & Solar-Log I am going to take look at the web page. For now you are saying you can get most of the data from the "solar log" as the old Sunny comms? I really need to know if the battery charged yesterday and if it is trying to charge today. The rest of the data is nice but for remote monitoring this all I need. I have several Schneider comboxes that also take an opening from an AUX input and sends that out to the web as a closure/opening for a burgler alarm. Nice to have that also.... > Yes, I did 13 kw tracked system in SW Colorado in ’06-07? And the > utility wanted a rev. grade meter. The SMA Sunny web-box box had > crapped out 2 months past warranty & the owner was not interested in > installing another. Solar-Log was very helpful during & after the installation. > > > > We did have the S-L meter go down & replacement was quick & I suspect > to this day, lightning. We had 2 separate SMA inverters also go down > on this site and lightning may have been a contributing factor though > nothing was ever determined specifically. > > > > If the Sunny web box is not in manufacture any more, why would you go > that route now? You will be replacing with a Solar-Log or other meter > down the road. > > > > Solar-Log gets a thumbs up from me. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of Glenn Burt > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:53 PM > To: Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist > > > > Can SolarLog meters read the SMA datastream? > > _____ > > From: Jeff Clearwater > Sent: ‎4/‎13/‎2017 19:20 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist > > Hi Folks, > > Well I've designed and sold an 18 KW Sunny Island / Sunny Boy system > for the Carribean but SMA informs me that they have nothing to replace > the discontinued Sunny Webbox for another several months. > > I can't simply tell my customer - "oh by the way - you know that > cadillac system I sold you and am installing in June? oh the > manufacturer has no monitoring solution for you"! Especially after > repeating over and over again the most important part of any off-grid > system is the battery % gauge in the kitchen!!! > > So if anyone has a SUNNY WEBBOX out there - or knows where I can get one. > Please contact me OFFLIST. > > Thanks so! > > Best > > Jeff > > -- > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > Renewable Energy Design & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant > > NABCEPâ„¢ Certified Solar PV Installer Licensed Solar Contractor in CA > - C-46 www.villagepowerdesign.com > 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Apr 15 12:19:49 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Off Grid Solar) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Transfer switch In-Reply-To: <20170412154555.77B5810874@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170412154555.77B5810874@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have been using the Square D Hubs for 25+ years. The correct model is 30 amps @ 600 vdc or vac. They are in single phase or 3 phase (3 contacts) and NEMA 3 rating for out in the weather. A fuse kit can be added and switch 3 arrays on the 3 phase. Dave Angelini / Offgrid Solar http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know of a DC transfer switch or relay that is rated for > 12 A at 300 VDC? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Apr 16 12:34:57 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Off Grid Solar) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower 327 watt solar panels (3 minimum wanted) Message-ID: I have a repair for a client and I can no longer get Sunpower. I am a Soligent dealer. I can drive or pay shipping and a finders fee. Will take new, used, or blemished panels if they work and are the exact size of the E series 327's 3 minimum but 10 or more is fine also. Will trade any new gear that I can get at Soligent also. Please respond to my e-mail only and Thank-you! Dave Angelini / Offgrid Solar http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ offgridsolar at sti.net From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Apr 17 14:07:06 2017 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 18:07:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist In-Reply-To: <58F007A9.4050302@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <58F007A9.4050302@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <29a690e446dd47909d4fb84fa315bf6f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Jeff, Well that is highly irritating of SMA. I have couple webboxes in stock, brand new, never opened if you want to buy. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: April-13-17 4:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need Sunny Webbox - Contact offlist Hi Folks, Well I've designed and sold an 18 KW Sunny Island / Sunny Boy system for the Carribean but SMA informs me that they have nothing to replace the discontinued Sunny Webbox for another several months. I can't simply tell my customer - "oh by the way - you know that cadillac system I sold you and am installing in June? oh the manufacturer has no monitoring solution for you"! Especially after repeating over and over again the most important part of any off-grid system is the battery % gauge in the kitchen!!! So if anyone has a SUNNY WEBBOX out there - or knows where I can get one. Please contact me OFFLIST. Thanks so! Best Jeff -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar PV Installer Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 www.villagepowerdesign.com 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 17:24:11 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 15:24:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches; Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can often find homes for smaller installations with various aid groups I've worked with on Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's "everything must go" including mods, wiring, racking etc. It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with microinverters (3200 modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) has already met its goal RECs. Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can it be recycled? The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kjenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 17:56:37 2017 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com (Kurt Johnsen) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:56:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try sun electronics in Miami. sunelec.com Kurt Johnsen Kurt Johnsen Energy Systems 352-222-9495 On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Greetings Wrenches; > > Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can often find homes > for smaller installations with various aid groups I've worked with on > Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's "everything must go" > including mods, wiring, racking etc. > > It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with microinverters (3200 > modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) has already met > its goal RECs. > > Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can it be recycled? > The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Apr 17 18:02:56 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Off Grid Solar) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 15:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> The guy who does buy this kind of gear is John Kimbal at Sun Electric in Miami. https://sunelec.com/ > Greetings Wrenches; > > Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can often find homes > for smaller installations with various aid groups I've worked with on > Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's "everything must go" > including mods, wiring, racking etc. > > It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with microinverters (3200 > modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) has already met > its goal RECs. > > Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can it be recycled? > The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 11:23:04 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:23:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] pumping question In-Reply-To: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: HI All, There are many new PV inverter/VFD 3 phase pumping options out there. I am looking for any information about how to determine pump performance with standard centrifugal pump running with less than full power. ( IE off of solar) IE with 5% less watts it produces 50% less water etc. I just haven’t been able to figure out how this aspect of the design. Wondering if anyone out there has any info? thanks in advance, jay peltz power From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 18 12:34:45 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:34:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Webbox Message-ID: Friends: I was just able to purchase an SMA Webbox and the RS485 control boards to connect a three phase Sunny Island and AC Coupled Sunny Boy 22 series system from The Power Store. They had everything in stock at reasonable costs. I prefer the Webbox to third party logging systems for this reason: If you have a computer on site with a remote desktop app or you can open a router port, you have enhanced control options with the Sunny Island System. For example, one can start a generator and initiate an Equalization charge before leaving the shop for a monthly maintenance visit. This is a better option than standing around for 6 hours while a large battery bank equalizes. The interface is a bit awkward but it works. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kanestephenj at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 13:52:42 2017 From: kanestephenj at gmail.com (Stephen K) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 11:52:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? In-Reply-To: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Dan, Just in case, two other possible options for recycling modules (not sure if these folks are still in business or not)... *Imagine Solar* Genevieve Cross gpcross at aol.com 510-414-8376 -OR- *Acute Solar Inc* http://www.webuysilicon.com We have also taken modules to *Goodwill Electronics Recycling* in Denver who tell us they dismantle the frames for recycling. Not sure how verifiable that is or if a Goodwill in PA does something similar. Best of luck! Stephen Kane Namaste Solar Boulder, CO On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Off Grid Solar wrote: > The guy who does buy this kind of gear is John Kimbal at Sun Electric in > Miami. > https://sunelec.com/ > > > > > Greetings Wrenches; > > > > Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can often find homes > > for smaller installations with various aid groups I've worked with on > > Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's "everything must go" > > including mods, wiring, racking etc. > > > > It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with microinverters (3200 > > modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) has already met > > its goal RECs. > > > > Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can it be recycled? > > The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. > > > > Dan Fink > > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > > 970.672.4342 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Apr 19 18:29:48 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:29:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention Message-ID: Hi Wrenches – Now that we’re in the 2014 NEC, we’ve increasingly been using the NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) interconnection method: [image: cid:image001.png at 01D2B920.B3AB5D90] This is a great way of putting lots of PV on a panel when there are few loads. As long as the total breaker rating (excluding the supply breaker) equals the bus rating or less, we’re good to go. However, we recently ran into a panel that had a lug subfeed kit installed in it. Do you think the intention of the code is to allow something like shown in this sketch? Cheers, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 41287 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 228574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Wed Apr 19 19:18:25 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 16:18:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If your sketch shows that there are 200A of breakers in the sub panel and 200A of breakers in the main, then, no, that would not be the intent. The lug kit makes the two separate bars into a single bar. Mark On 4/19/2017 3:29 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches – > > Now that we’re in the 2014 NEC, we’ve increasingly been using the NEC > 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) interconnection method: > > imap://markf at mail.lmi.net:143/fetch%3EUID%3E.Re-Wrenches%3E12200?header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.png > > This is a great way of putting lots of PV on a panel when there are > few loads. As long as the total breaker rating (excluding the supply > breaker) equals the bus rating or less, we’re good to go. However, we > recently ran into a panel that had a lug subfeed kit installed in it. > > Do you think the intention of the code is to allow something like > shown in this sketch? > > Cheers, > > August > > Luminalt > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 41287 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 228574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Apr 19 19:31:19 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 16:31:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f7c6ca1ef4f6481e2090393913defa7@mail.gmail.com> Right, but if we limit the load breakers to the bus rating per NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c), then there will never be an overcurrent event. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:18 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention If your sketch shows that there are 200A of breakers in the sub panel and 200A of breakers in the main, then, no, that would not be the intent. The lug kit makes the two separate bars into a single bar. Mark On 4/19/2017 3:29 PM, August Goers wrote: Hi Wrenches – Now that we’re in the 2014 NEC, we’ve increasingly been using the NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) interconnection method: [image: imap://markf at mail.lmi.net:143/fetch%3EUID%3E.Re-Wrenches%3E12200?header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.png] This is a great way of putting lots of PV on a panel when there are few loads. As long as the total breaker rating (excluding the supply breaker) equals the bus rating or less, we’re good to go. However, we recently ran into a panel that had a lug subfeed kit installed in it. Do you think the intention of the code is to allow something like shown in this sketch? Cheers, August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 41287 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 228574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Wed Apr 19 21:01:43 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:01:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention In-Reply-To: <8f7c6ca1ef4f6481e2090393913defa7@mail.gmail.com> References: <8f7c6ca1ef4f6481e2090393913defa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: True, but, the intent of the Code is not to always allow the interconnection of the maximum amount of PV power possible, so long as an over-current event cannot occur. Here we see Code that prevents over-current events in all cases. I guess you could say that that is it's intent. Sadly, the case you show would not be one of those allowed. Happily, many that would not have been allowed in the past are now allowed. This is called progress. On 4/19/2017 4:31 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Right, but if we limit the load breakers to the bus rating per NEC > 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c), then there will never be an overcurrent event. > > August > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Mark Frye > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:18 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention > > If your sketch shows that there are 200A of breakers in the sub panel > and 200A of breakers in the main, then, no, that would not be the > intent. The lug kit makes the two separate bars into a single bar. > > Mark > > On 4/19/2017 3:29 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches – > > Now that we’re in the 2014 NEC, we’ve increasingly been using the > NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) interconnection method: > > imap://markf at mail.lmi.net:143/fetch%3EUID%3E.Re-Wrenches%3E12200?header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.png > > This is a great way of putting lots of PV on a panel when there > are few loads. As long as the total breaker rating (excluding the > supply breaker) equals the bus rating or less, we’re good to go. > However, we recently ran into a panel that had a lug subfeed kit > installed in it. > > Do you think the intention of the code is to allow something like > shown in this sketch? > > Cheers, > > August > > Luminalt > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 41287 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 228574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Apr 19 20:35:45 2017 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:35:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? In-Reply-To: References: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <387e7158-3d2d-b4d7-67a8-cbfa3155d673@sindelarsolar.com> This is from August 2015: Hello Wrenchers, Our solar non-profit is accepting donations of modules in exchange for a tax deduction off of your taxes. If you have clients wanting to replace old modules, customers wishing to abandon their PV array (for some odd reason), have encountered modules with broken glass or bent frames, we can take them off your hands and give you a tax credit in the amount of the module's retained worth; as determined by you/ the donor. As long as the modules are still producing power, we can find appropriate projects that can utilize them despite their unsavory appearance. Currently we have projects in Rwanda, Ecuador, India, and here in the USA. We donate materials and labor to communities, schools, medical facilities, and tribal nations. Help us help those in need. Don't throw it away, recycle it! Eric Stikes Founding Director Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 And Pvrecycling.com appears to now be a dead link. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 4/18/2017 11:52 AM, Stephen K wrote: > Dan, > > Just in case, two other possible options for recycling modules (not > sure if these folks are still in business or not)... > > *Imagine Solar* > Genevieve Cross > gpcross at aol.com > 510-414-8376 > > -OR- > > *Acute Solar Inc* > http://www.webuysilicon.com > > > > We have also taken modules to *Goodwill Electronics Recycling* in > Denver who tell us they dismantle the frames for recycling. Not sure > how verifiable that is or if a Goodwill in PA does something similar. > > > Best of luck! > > Stephen Kane > Namaste Solar > Boulder, CO > > > > On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Off Grid Solar > wrote: > > The guy who does buy this kind of gear is John Kimbal at Sun > Electric in > Miami. > https://sunelec.com/ > > > > > Greetings Wrenches; > > > > Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can often > find homes > > for smaller installations with various aid groups I've worked > with on > > Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's "everything > must go" > > including mods, wiring, racking etc. > > > > It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with microinverters > (3200 > > modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) has > already met > > its goal RECs. > > > > Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can it be > recycled? > > The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. > > > > Dan Fink > > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > > 970.672.4342 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 00:00:03 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:00:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? In-Reply-To: <387e7158-3d2d-b4d7-67a8-cbfa3155d673@sindelarsolar.com> References: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <387e7158-3d2d-b4d7-67a8-cbfa3155d673@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I believe PV module recycling is on the Solar ABCs latest "gap" report -- their wishlist of stuff that needs to be addressed. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, the Ecotech Institute, Aurora, Colorado Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers IREC Certified Instructor for: - PV Installation Professional - Small Wind Installer 970.672.4342 On Apr 19, 2017 7:21 PM, "Sindelar Solar" wrote: > This is from August 2015: > > Hello Wrenchers, > > Our solar non-profit is accepting donations of modules in exchange for a > tax deduction off of your taxes. If you have clients wanting to replace old > modules, customers wishing to abandon their PV array (for some odd reason), > have encountered modules with broken glass or bent frames, we can take them > off your hands and give you a tax credit in the amount of the module's > retained worth; as determined by you/ the donor. As long as the modules are > still producing power, we can find appropriate projects that can utilize > them despite their unsavory appearance. Currently we have projects in > Rwanda, Ecuador, India, and here in the USA. We donate materials and labor > to communities, schools, medical facilities, and tribal nations. Help us > help those in need. Don't throw it away, recycle it! > > Eric Stikes > Founding Director > Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. > www.goodsun.life > (530)798-3738 <(530)%20798-3738> > > And Pvrecycling.com appears to now be a dead link. > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell* > > On 4/18/2017 11:52 AM, Stephen K wrote: > > Dan, > > Just in case, two other possible options for recycling modules (not sure > if these folks are still in business or not)... > > *Imagine Solar* > Genevieve Cross > gpcross at aol.com > 510-414-8376 <(510)%20414-8376> > > -OR- > > *Acute Solar Inc* > http://www.webuysilicon.com > > > > We have also taken modules to *Goodwill Electronics Recycling* in Denver > who tell us they dismantle the frames for recycling. Not sure how > verifiable that is or if a Goodwill in PA does something similar. > > > Best of luck! > > Stephen Kane > Namaste Solar > Boulder, CO > > > > On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Off Grid Solar > wrote: > >> The guy who does buy this kind of gear is John Kimbal at Sun Electric in >> Miami. >> https://sunelec.com/ >> >> >> >> > Greetings Wrenches; >> > >> > Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can often find homes >> > for smaller installations with various aid groups I've worked with on >> > Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's "everything must go" >> > including mods, wiring, racking etc. >> > >> > It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with microinverters (3200 >> > modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) has already met >> > its goal RECs. >> > >> > Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can it be >> recycled? >> > The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. >> > >> > Dan Fink >> > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >> > ~ PV Installation Professional >> > ~ Small Wind Installer >> > Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >> > 970.672.4342 >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stc.jason at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 09:09:48 2017 From: stc.jason at gmail.com (Jason Fisher (STC)) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 09:09:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention In-Reply-To: References: <8f7c6ca1ef4f6481e2090393913defa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi August. If the main panel had a 400A rated bus and the sub was 200A then I think you could make a good argument but it appears the main is a 200A bus so therefore the sum of all load and supply breakers on that bus is 400A (loads plus solar excluding the main breaker), which does not comply with the Code language nor intent. The feed through lugs do not create a single bus, you now just have two buses and a feeder conductor to evaluate. Once the solar is connected you there are two sources feeding the main panel bus, not just the utility. You can exclude one but not both when evaluating the main panel bus. Hope I correctly assessed your situation. Jason Fisher On Apr 19, 2017 6:01 PM, "Mark Frye" wrote: True, but, the intent of the Code is not to always allow the interconnection of the maximum amount of PV power possible, so long as an over-current event cannot occur. Here we see Code that prevents over-current events in all cases. I guess you could say that that is it's intent. Sadly, the case you show would not be one of those allowed. Happily, many that would not have been allowed in the past are now allowed. This is called progress. On 4/19/2017 4:31 PM, August Goers wrote: Right, but if we limit the load breakers to the bus rating per NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c), then there will never be an overcurrent event. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:18 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention If your sketch shows that there are 200A of breakers in the sub panel and 200A of breakers in the main, then, no, that would not be the intent. The lug kit makes the two separate bars into a single bar. Mark On 4/19/2017 3:29 PM, August Goers wrote: Hi Wrenches – Now that we’re in the 2014 NEC, we’ve increasingly been using the NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) interconnection method: [image: imap://markf at mail.lmi.net:143/fetch%3EUID%3E.Re-Wrenches%3E12200?header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.png] This is a great way of putting lots of PV on a panel when there are few loads. As long as the total breaker rating (excluding the supply breaker) equals the bus rating or less, we’re good to go. However, we recently ran into a panel that had a lug subfeed kit installed in it. Do you think the intention of the code is to allow something like shown in this sketch? Cheers, August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 228574 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 41287 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Apr 20 09:45:35 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 06:45:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention In-Reply-To: References: <8f7c6ca1ef4f6481e2090393913defa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8344c7169af106724caf9894ec73be50@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jason and All – Thanks for the responses. I think it is fair to say that the 200 A of loads plus the 200 A of solar (albeit through a feedthrough lug) equals 400 A as Jason mentions below. I guess my real question is whether limiting the loads to 200 A plus allowing up to 200 A of solar (using my 200 A meter/main example) is a safe setup even if it is not currently NEC compliant. Perhaps future editions of the NEC could be expanded to allow this? Or is there a reason that NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) is written the way it is and we must include the PV too? Cheers, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Fisher (STC) *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2017 6:10 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention Hi August. If the main panel had a 400A rated bus and the sub was 200A then I think you could make a good argument but it appears the main is a 200A bus so therefore the sum of all load and supply breakers on that bus is 400A (loads plus solar excluding the main breaker), which does not comply with the Code language nor intent. The feed through lugs do not create a single bus, you now just have two buses and a feeder conductor to evaluate. Once the solar is connected you there are two sources feeding the main panel bus, not just the utility. You can exclude one but not both when evaluating the main panel bus. Hope I correctly assessed your situation. Jason Fisher On Apr 19, 2017 6:01 PM, "Mark Frye" wrote: True, but, the intent of the Code is not to always allow the interconnection of the maximum amount of PV power possible, so long as an over-current event cannot occur. Here we see Code that prevents over-current events in all cases. I guess you could say that that is it's intent. Sadly, the case you show would not be one of those allowed. Happily, many that would not have been allowed in the past are now allowed. This is called progress. On 4/19/2017 4:31 PM, August Goers wrote: Right, but if we limit the load breakers to the bus rating per NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c), then there will never be an overcurrent event. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:18 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention If your sketch shows that there are 200A of breakers in the sub panel and 200A of breakers in the main, then, no, that would not be the intent. The lug kit makes the two separate bars into a single bar. Mark On 4/19/2017 3:29 PM, August Goers wrote: Hi Wrenches – Now that we’re in the 2014 NEC, we’ve increasingly been using the NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) interconnection method: [image: imap://markf at mail.lmi.net:143/fetch%3EUID%3E.Re-Wrenches%3E12200?header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.png] This is a great way of putting lots of PV on a panel when there are few loads. As long as the total breaker rating (excluding the supply breaker) equals the bus rating or less, we’re good to go. However, we recently ran into a panel that had a lug subfeed kit installed in it. Do you think the intention of the code is to allow something like shown in this sketch? Cheers, August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 41287 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 228574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 20 14:10:29 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:10:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? In-Reply-To: References: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <387e7158-3d2d-b4d7-67a8-cbfa3155d673@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I've been involved with re-purposing modules a few times; back at the turn of the century, the idea of selling modules for $1/ watt even used, was exciting. Now a days with some cheap brands going for 50 cents/ watt new, its getting harder to make it work. Labor, transportation, and storage costs quickly eat up the value. I'm not sure what the answer is moving forward, but it costs money even to haul them to the dump which is a horrifying thought too. Maybe we could offer a "pick your own modules" day, and let folks come and haul off modules for their own use: no charge, no warranty, sign this liability waiver. This is something I think about often, because in places like Haiti, they would love to have our old equipment. Once again though, shipping, import duties, and getting the BOS equipment can make it easier to just bring in new equipment. I don't have answers, but its definitely something we need to be thinking about as an industry. The better quality modules ( like Sunpower) might make usable power for another 50 years. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 4/19/17 10:00 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > I believe PV module recycling is on the Solar ABCs latest "gap" report > -- their wishlist of stuff that needs to be addressed. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, the Ecotech Institute, Aurora, > Colorado > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > IREC Certified Instructor for: > - PV Installation Professional > - Small Wind Installer > 970.672.4342 > > On Apr 19, 2017 7:21 PM, "Sindelar Solar" > wrote: > > This is from August 2015: > > Hello Wrenchers, > Our solar non-profit is accepting donations of modules in > exchange for a tax deduction off of your taxes. If you have > clients wanting to replace old modules, customers wishing to > abandon their PV array (for some odd reason), have encountered > modules with broken glass or bent frames, we can take them off > your hands and give you a tax credit in the amount of the > module's retained worth; as determined by you/ the donor. As > long as the modules are still producing power, we can find > appropriate projects that can utilize them despite their > unsavory appearance. Currently we have projects in Rwanda, > Ecuador, India, and here in the USA. We donate materials and > labor to communities, schools, medical facilities, and tribal > nations. Help us help those in need. Don't throw it away, > recycle it! > Eric Stikes > Founding Director > Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. > www.goodsun.life > (530)798-3738 > > And Pvrecycling.com appears to now be a dead link. > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > On 4/18/2017 11:52 AM, Stephen K wrote: >> Dan, >> >> Just in case, two other possible options for recycling modules >> (not sure if these folks are still in business or not)... >> >> *Imagine Solar* >> Genevieve Cross >> gpcross at aol.com >> 510-414-8376 >> >> -OR- >> >> *Acute Solar Inc* >> http://www.webuysilicon.com >> >> >> >> We have also taken modules to *Goodwill Electronics Recycling* in >> Denver who tell us they dismantle the frames for recycling. Not >> sure how verifiable that is or if a Goodwill in PA does something >> similar. >> >> >> Best of luck! >> >> Stephen Kane >> Namaste Solar >> Boulder, CO >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Off Grid Solar >> > wrote: >> >> The guy who does buy this kind of gear is John Kimbal at Sun >> Electric in >> Miami. >> https://sunelec.com/ >> >> >> >> > Greetings Wrenches; >> > >> > Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can >> often find homes >> > for smaller installations with various aid groups I've >> worked with on >> > Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's >> "everything must go" >> > including mods, wiring, racking etc. >> > >> > It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with >> microinverters (3200 >> > modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) >> has already met >> > its goal RECs. >> > >> > Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can >> it be recycled? >> > The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. >> > >> > Dan Fink >> > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >> > ~ PV Installation Professional >> > ~ Small Wind Installer >> > Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >> > 970.672.4342 >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 20 23:16:12 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 20:16:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian Message-ID: <09917c507d8f7d38e6528899b5986f00@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am designing our first three 8K Radian stack. I think I have a good handle on the plumbing and wiring but I was wondering about one thing: With three Radians and a PV recombiner, we are out of shunt ports on the Flexnet DC. Have any of you dealt with this? My proposal is to gang the negatives for two or three Radians and run them through a 1000A/100mV shunt. The ratio is the same as the 500/50 offered. Will the FNDC accept that analog input? Any other considerations that might not be realized at first? Thanks in advance, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Apr 21 09:43:18 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:43:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian In-Reply-To: <09917c507d8f7d38e6528899b5986f00@mail.gmail.com> References: <09917c507d8f7d38e6528899b5986f00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ive done this repeatably, when installing multiple inverters, there seems to be no problem w/ the FNDC just the space required. I will come off the battery flag term w/ buss bar stock and install my shunt at that point. you can also look at the midnite 1000A battery enclosure. those damn radian enclosures get really filled really quickly. T > On Apr 20, 2017, at 11:16 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am designing our first three 8K Radian stack. I think I have a good handle on the plumbing and wiring but I was wondering about one thing: With three Radians and a PV recombiner, we are out of shunt ports on the Flexnet DC. Have any of you dealt with this? > > My proposal is to gang the negatives for two or three Radians and run them through a 1000A/100mV shunt. The ratio is the same as the 500/50 offered. Will the FNDC accept that analog input? > > Any other considerations that might not be realized at first? > > Thanks in advance, > > William Miller > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 14:15:17 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:15:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? In-Reply-To: References: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <387e7158-3d2d-b4d7-67a8-cbfa3155d673@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I agree Ray - and with situations like this recent 1+ mW one I got the call on, it's the demolition company or in the case of a tractor-trailer wreck, the salvage company -- see http://otherpower.com/damaged-pv-module-container-142-kw The problem is that salvage and demo companies business is getting rid of this stuff FAST, not parting it out, as they have no place to store it, nobody to manage any parting out, And with PV prices so low..... The people who need this equipment the most are the least able to afford it. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Ray wrote: > I've been involved with re-purposing modules a few times; back at the turn > of the century, the idea of selling modules for $1/ watt even used, was > exciting. Now a days with some cheap brands going for 50 cents/ watt new, > its getting harder to make it work. Labor, transportation, and storage > costs quickly eat up the value. > > I'm not sure what the answer is moving forward, but it costs money even to > haul them to the dump which is a horrifying thought too. Maybe we could > offer a "pick your own modules" day, and let folks come and haul off > modules for their own use: no charge, no warranty, sign this liability > waiver. > > This is something I think about often, because in places like Haiti, they > would love to have our old equipment. Once again though, shipping, import > duties, and getting the BOS equipment can make it easier to just bring in > new equipment. I don't have answers, but its definitely something we need > to be thinking about as an industry. The better quality modules ( like > Sunpower) might make usable power for another 50 years. > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> > > On 4/19/17 10:00 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > I believe PV module recycling is on the Solar ABCs latest "gap" report -- > their wishlist of stuff that needs to be addressed. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, the Ecotech Institute, Aurora, > Colorado > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > IREC Certified Instructor for: > - PV Installation Professional > - Small Wind Installer > 970.672.4342 <(970)%20672-4342> > > > On Apr 19, 2017 7:21 PM, "Sindelar Solar" wrote: > >> This is from August 2015: >> >> Hello Wrenchers, >> >> Our solar non-profit is accepting donations of modules in exchange for a >> tax deduction off of your taxes. If you have clients wanting to replace old >> modules, customers wishing to abandon their PV array (for some odd reason), >> have encountered modules with broken glass or bent frames, we can take them >> off your hands and give you a tax credit in the amount of the module's >> retained worth; as determined by you/ the donor. As long as the modules are >> still producing power, we can find appropriate projects that can utilize >> them despite their unsavory appearance. Currently we have projects in >> Rwanda, Ecuador, India, and here in the USA. We donate materials and labor >> to communities, schools, medical facilities, and tribal nations. Help us >> help those in need. Don't throw it away, recycle it! >> >> Eric Stikes >> Founding Director >> Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. >> www.goodsun.life >> (530)798-3738 <%28530%29%20798-3738> >> >> And Pvrecycling.com appears to now be a dead link. >> Allan >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 <%28505%29%20780-2738> cell* >> >> On 4/18/2017 11:52 AM, Stephen K wrote: >> >> Dan, >> >> Just in case, two other possible options for recycling modules (not sure >> if these folks are still in business or not)... >> >> *Imagine Solar* >> Genevieve Cross >> gpcross at aol.com >> 510-414-8376 <%28510%29%20414-8376> >> >> -OR- >> >> *Acute Solar Inc* >> http://www.webuysilicon.com >> >> >> >> We have also taken modules to *Goodwill Electronics Recycling* in Denver >> who tell us they dismantle the frames for recycling. Not sure how >> verifiable that is or if a Goodwill in PA does something similar. >> >> >> Best of luck! >> >> Stephen Kane >> Namaste Solar >> Boulder, CO >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Off Grid Solar >> wrote: >> >>> The guy who does buy this kind of gear is John Kimbal at Sun Electric in >>> Miami. >>> https://sunelec.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> > Greetings Wrenches; >>> > >>> > Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can often find >>> homes >>> > for smaller installations with various aid groups I've worked with on >>> > Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's "everything must go" >>> > including mods, wiring, racking etc. >>> > >>> > It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with microinverters (3200 >>> > modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) has already >>> met >>> > its goal RECs. >>> > >>> > Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can it be >>> recycled? >>> > The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. >>> > >>> > Dan Fink >>> > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >>> > ~ PV Installation Professional >>> > ~ Small Wind Installer >>> > Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >>> > 970.672.4342 >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Apr 21 15:04:54 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? In-Reply-To: References: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <387e7158-3d2d-b4d7-67a8-cbfa3155d673@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <6c2a767d75840fe90d5b0f2a62e63522.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Also adding in that sending old equipment that has been in the sun for 20+ years to the 3rd world may not be the best thing for these people. Many solar panels last a very long time until they are removed! Intermittent equipment is the last thing they need ! I have been involved with used equipment enough that I just do not get involved. It is too bad I agree! > I agree Ray - and with situations like this recent 1+ mW one I got the > call > on, it's the demolition company or in the case of a tractor-trailer wreck, > the salvage company -- see > http://otherpower.com/damaged-pv-module-container-142-kw > > The problem is that salvage and demo companies business is getting rid of > this stuff FAST, not parting it out, as they have no place to store it, > nobody to manage any parting out, And with PV prices so low..... > > The people who need this equipment the most are the least able to afford > it. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Ray wrote: > >> I've been involved with re-purposing modules a few times; back at the >> turn >> of the century, the idea of selling modules for $1/ watt even used, was >> exciting. Now a days with some cheap brands going for 50 cents/ watt >> new, >> its getting harder to make it work. Labor, transportation, and storage >> costs quickly eat up the value. >> >> I'm not sure what the answer is moving forward, but it costs money even >> to >> haul them to the dump which is a horrifying thought too. Maybe we could >> offer a "pick your own modules" day, and let folks come and haul off >> modules for their own use: no charge, no warranty, sign this liability >> waiver. >> >> This is something I think about often, because in places like Haiti, >> they >> would love to have our old equipment. Once again though, shipping, >> import >> duties, and getting the BOS equipment can make it easier to just bring >> in >> new equipment. I don't have answers, but its definitely something we >> need >> to be thinking about as an industry. The better quality modules ( like >> Sunpower) might make usable power for another 50 years. >> >> R. Ray Walters >> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com >> BS Mech Engineering, 1988 >> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 >> Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> >> >> On 4/19/17 10:00 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >> I believe PV module recycling is on the Solar ABCs latest "gap" report >> -- >> their wishlist of stuff that needs to be addressed. >> >> Dan Fink >> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, the Ecotech Institute, Aurora, >> Colorado >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> IREC Certified Instructor for: >> - PV Installation Professional >> - Small Wind Installer >> 970.672.4342 <(970)%20672-4342> >> >> >> On Apr 19, 2017 7:21 PM, "Sindelar Solar" >> wrote: >> >>> This is from August 2015: >>> >>> Hello Wrenchers, >>> >>> Our solar non-profit is accepting donations of modules in exchange for >>> a >>> tax deduction off of your taxes. If you have clients wanting to replace >>> old >>> modules, customers wishing to abandon their PV array (for some odd >>> reason), >>> have encountered modules with broken glass or bent frames, we can take >>> them >>> off your hands and give you a tax credit in the amount of the module's >>> retained worth; as determined by you/ the donor. As long as the modules >>> are >>> still producing power, we can find appropriate projects that can >>> utilize >>> them despite their unsavory appearance. Currently we have projects in >>> Rwanda, Ecuador, India, and here in the USA. We donate materials and >>> labor >>> to communities, schools, medical facilities, and tribal nations. Help >>> us >>> help those in need. Don't throw it away, recycle it! >>> >>> Eric Stikes >>> Founding Director >>> Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. >>> www.goodsun.life >>> (530)798-3738 <%28530%29%20798-3738> >>> >>> And Pvrecycling.com appears to now be a dead link. >>> Allan >>> -- >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> *505 780-2738 <%28505%29%20780-2738> cell* >>> >>> On 4/18/2017 11:52 AM, Stephen K wrote: >>> >>> Dan, >>> >>> Just in case, two other possible options for recycling modules (not >>> sure >>> if these folks are still in business or not)... >>> >>> *Imagine Solar* >>> Genevieve Cross >>> gpcross at aol.com >>> 510-414-8376 <%28510%29%20414-8376> >>> >>> -OR- >>> >>> *Acute Solar Inc* >>> http://www.webuysilicon.com >>> >>> >>> >>> We have also taken modules to *Goodwill Electronics Recycling* in >>> Denver >>> who tell us they dismantle the frames for recycling. Not sure how >>> verifiable that is or if a Goodwill in PA does something similar. >>> >>> >>> Best of luck! >>> >>> Stephen Kane >>> Namaste Solar >>> Boulder, CO >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Off Grid Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>>> The guy who does buy this kind of gear is John Kimbal at Sun Electric >>>> in >>>> Miami. >>>> https://sunelec.com/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Greetings Wrenches; >>>> > >>>> > Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can often find >>>> homes >>>> > for smaller installations with various aid groups I've worked with >>>> on >>>> > Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's "everything must >>>> go" >>>> > including mods, wiring, racking etc. >>>> > >>>> > It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with microinverters >>>> (3200 >>>> > modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) has already >>>> met >>>> > its goal RECs. >>>> > >>>> > Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can it be >>>> recycled? >>>> > The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. >>>> > >>>> > Dan Fink >>>> > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>>> > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >>>> > ~ PV Installation Professional >>>> > ~ Small Wind Installer >>>> > Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>>> > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >>>> > 970.672.4342 >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & >> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 21 17:11:15 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 17:11:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? In-Reply-To: References: <0197ad651142bdf8c91bf32c5abf8266.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <387e7158-3d2d-b4d7-67a8-cbfa3155d673@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <20170421211119.0AB0010E10@che.dreamhost.com> I wonder if an organization like Habitat for Humanity would be interested? -----Original Message----- From: "Dan Fink" Sent: ‎4/‎21/‎2017 14:15 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Disposal of large scale PV installation? I agree Ray - and with situations like this recent 1+ mW one I got the call on, it's the demolition company or in the case of a tractor-trailer wreck, the salvage company -- see http://otherpower.com/damaged-pv-module-container-142-kw The problem is that salvage and demo companies business is getting rid of this stuff FAST, not parting it out, as they have no place to store it, nobody to manage any parting out, And with PV prices so low..... The people who need this equipment the most are the least able to afford it. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Ray wrote: > I've been involved with re-purposing modules a few times; back at the turn > of the century, the idea of selling modules for $1/ watt even used, was > exciting. Now a days with some cheap brands going for 50 cents/ watt new, > its getting harder to make it work. Labor, transportation, and storage > costs quickly eat up the value. > > I'm not sure what the answer is moving forward, but it costs money even to > haul them to the dump which is a horrifying thought too. Maybe we could > offer a "pick your own modules" day, and let folks come and haul off > modules for their own use: no charge, no warranty, sign this liability > waiver. > > This is something I think about often, because in places like Haiti, they > would love to have our old equipment. Once again though, shipping, import > duties, and getting the BOS equipment can make it easier to just bring in > new equipment. I don't have answers, but its definitely something we need > to be thinking about as an industry. The better quality modules ( like > Sunpower) might make usable power for another 50 years. > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> > > On 4/19/17 10:00 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > I believe PV module recycling is on the Solar ABCs latest "gap" report -- > their wishlist of stuff that needs to be addressed. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, the Ecotech Institute, Aurora, > Colorado > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > IREC Certified Instructor for: > - PV Installation Professional > - Small Wind Installer > 970.672.4342 <(970)%20672-4342> > > > On Apr 19, 2017 7:21 PM, "Sindelar Solar" wrote: > >> This is from August 2015: >> >> Hello Wrenchers, >> >> Our solar non-profit is accepting donations of modules in exchange for a >> tax deduction off of your taxes. If you have clients wanting to replace old >> modules, customers wishing to abandon their PV array (for some odd reason), >> have encountered modules with broken glass or bent frames, we can take them >> off your hands and give you a tax credit in the amount of the module's >> retained worth; as determined by you/ the donor. As long as the modules are >> still producing power, we can find appropriate projects that can utilize >> them despite their unsavory appearance. Currently we have projects in >> Rwanda, Ecuador, India, and here in the USA. We donate materials and labor >> to communities, schools, medical facilities, and tribal nations. Help us >> help those in need. Don't throw it away, recycle it! >> >> Eric Stikes >> Founding Director >> Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. >> www.goodsun.life >> (530)798-3738 <%28530%29%20798-3738> >> >> And Pvrecycling.com appears to now be a dead link. >> Allan >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 <%28505%29%20780-2738> cell* >> >> On 4/18/2017 11:52 AM, Stephen K wrote: >> >> Dan, >> >> Just in case, two other possible options for recycling modules (not sure >> if these folks are still in business or not)... >> >> *Imagine Solar* >> Genevieve Cross >> gpcross at aol.com >> 510-414-8376 <%28510%29%20414-8376> >> >> -OR- >> >> *Acute Solar Inc* >> http://www.webuysilicon.com >> >> >> >> We have also taken modules to *Goodwill Electronics Recycling* in Denver >> who tell us they dismantle the frames for recycling. Not sure how >> verifiable that is or if a Goodwill in PA does something similar. >> >> >> Best of luck! >> >> Stephen Kane >> Namaste Solar >> Boulder, CO >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Off Grid Solar >> wrote: >> >>> The guy who does buy this kind of gear is John Kimbal at Sun Electric in >>> Miami. >>> https://sunelec.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> > Greetings Wrenches; >>> > >>> > Not the first time I've been asked this question; I can often find >>> homes >>> > for smaller installations with various aid groups I've worked with on >>> > Indian Reservations, but this one is big, and it's "everything must go" >>> > including mods, wiring, racking etc. >>> > >>> > It's just over 1mW of Sunpower 327w modules with microinverters (3200 >>> > modules), the land has sold and the project (it's in PA) has already >>> met >>> > its goal RECs. >>> > >>> > Anyone know if anyone buys this sort of equipment, or can it be >>> recycled? >>> > The demolition company won't store it, so it'll go to the dump. >>> > >>> > Dan Fink >>> > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >>> > ~ PV Installation Professional >>> > ~ Small Wind Installer >>> > Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >>> > 970.672.4342 >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 19:20:10 2017 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 19:20:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian Message-ID: Greetings William, I worked through this issue a little while back while designing and installing a five Radian GS8048A system. I designed a custom DC Bus System which included two 1,500A, 150mV shunts. One for metering DC to and from the Radian inverter/chargers, and one for metering combined charge controller production to the battery system. Below I have copied and pasted a couple of sections of text from OutBack Application Notes which you may find helpful. I do not know if using a mix of differently rated shunts is an issue or not; such as one 1,000A, 100mV shunt and two 500A, 50mV shunts. It is best for you to speak directly with Applications Engineering at OutBack to inquire and confirm details for your project. Also; I suggest trying to find out from OutBack when the next generation MATE System Display & Controller will be available. The MATE3 has a number of limitations and issues which will hopefully be resolved with the release of the new MATE product. It would be great if you could get the new next generation product and not have to work with the MATE3... Assuming the new MATE will be better than the MATE3 and you would be upgrading to the new MATE eventually. Also to note with multi Radian systems, or I believe any battery based grid interactive inverter system with multiple inverters which have H-bridge electronics architecture; the AC energy may flow to and from the inverters sharing a common AC "Grid" combiner and AC "Out" combiner. The Radian's AC "Grid" and AC "Out" terminals/connections are common with each other when the inverter is "selling" in Grid-Tie Mode. This allows energy to basically circulate to and from the multiple inverters in the system before/as it is exported to its grid connection. This affects the MATE3 metering and graphing. The more inverters and power capacity in the system the more this is noticed and the more the kWh values may be effected. I believe this may also effect system energy production efficiency as well. This issue is recognized in whole house back up systems and may not be noticed or as evident in systems with dedicated loads continually served from the AC "Out" connections. I have attached 3 pictures of my custom DC Bus System with the two shunts for reference. This (below) from an OutBack FLEXnet DC (FN-DC) Application Note (FA‐RP‐12/14/15): "A Note on Current Shunts Although OutBack products come equipped with 100A and 500A current shunts, the FD-NC has the ability to work with shunts as high as 1000A. The only requirement is that the voltage and current ratio (resistance) of the shunt remain the same. For example, the 500A shunts have a ratio of 0.0001 at 500A and 50mV. A 1000A shunt should have a voltage of 1000A at 100mV." This (below) from an OutBack Application Note entitled "Wiring and Combining Methods for Multi-Inverter Systems" (R1-RL-8/14/15): "Shunts and battery monitoring As with smaller systems, a separate shunt is needed for charge controllers and inverters in order to monitor loads and charging sources on separate battery monitor channels. When selecting a shunt, keep the following design considerations in mind: 1) A/V Ratio The ratio of amps to volts for a shunt must be 10,000:1 for systems using the OutBack Power FlexnetDC (FNDC). An example of a suitable shunt is one rated at 1,000A and 100mV. 2) Amps rating Shunt manufacturers recommend that a shunt not be loaded to more than 66% of its rated capacity. This derating, combined with the maximum 100mV limit on the FNDC, dictate that the largest recommended shunt be rated at 1500A, 150mV. 3) mV rating The voltage drop across the shunt when passing the maximum current for which the shunt is rated. For the FNDC, the maximum voltage drop across the shunt should not exceed 100mV. That does not mean the maximum shunt size is 1000A at 100mV. Taking into account #1 and #2 above, the limit is 1500A at 150mV with a usable current limit of 1000A. This ensures the maximum voltage drop across the shunt is 100mV (when passing 1000A). 4) Dimensions Ensure that the dimensions of the shunt are compatible with the bus bars specified and that the assembly (bus bars + shunts) fit on the backplane of the enclosure. The shunt design considerations above, combined with the FNDC’s maximum current monitoring limit of 1000A per channel essentially limit the system size if FNDC battery monitoring is to be included. Practically speaking, this limits systems that are to include FNDC battery monitoring to: a) At most five GS8048/GS8048A inverters or ten 3.0kW FXR inverters b) The same limits on FNDC battery monitoring limit the system to at most twelve FM80 charge controllers. Due to the 1000A current monitoring limit of the FNDC, large systems will have to be split up into smaller sub-systems. For example a system with 10 Radians and 20 charge controllers could be split into two sub-systems. Each would have five Radians, ten charge controllers and an FNDC. This would keep the current seen by each FNDC channel to below 1000A." I hope some of this information may be helpful. OutBack may have removed some of the Application Notes regarding larger multi Radian systems from their website. Give a shout if you can't find what you need, I may be able to help out and send you what I have on file. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com -------- Original Message Below -------- [RE-wrenches] Third Radian William Miller william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 20 20:16:12 PDT 2017 Friends: I am designing our first three 8K Radian stack. I think I have a good handle on the plumbing and wiring but I was wondering about one thing: With three Radians and a PV recombiner, we are out of shunt ports on the Flexnet DC. Have any of you dealt with this? My proposal is to gang the negatives for two or three Radians and run them through a 1000A/100mV shunt. The ratio is the same as the 500/50 offered. Will the FNDC accept that analog input? Any other considerations that might not be realized at first? Thanks in advance, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 10 DC Bus System Pic1 (reduced file size).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 364047 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 11 DC Bus System Pic2 (reduced file size).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 393363 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1500A,150mV Shunts Installed (reduced file size).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 367179 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at getpimby.com Wed Apr 26 07:21:17 2017 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 07:21:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro Off-grid Battery Sizing Message-ID: Good morning! I went to bed wondering if the off-grid battery bank sizing rules that I use for PV systems hold true for hydro-based systems. I woke up and I was still mulling this over. My battery bank sizing standard is to use the method outlined in the SEI Photovoltaics Manual. I would presume that since the charging source is fairly consistent (day-to-day and hour-to-hour) that I could then reduce the days of autonomy to 2-days. I'm curious though if anyone has advice for sizing a battery bank for hydro. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 09:29:29 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:29:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro Off-grid Battery Sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01d2be91$22b888a0$682999e0$@com> Hi Matt, Short answer is yes, 2 days of autonomy should be fine. I am presently operating our off rid PV/hydro system at well under two days of autonomy. I just crunched some numbers for our situation here in Vermont. Off grid system that is now 4.3kW PV and with a Harris micro-hydro turbine that I run at 325 Watts. · 24v system initially installed 30 years ago and with PV and inverters (dual OutBack) upgraded 7 years ago. · Present Battery bank now over 13 years old, 2v industrial flooded LA's rated at 1200 AH. Originally designed for 3+ days of autonomy. · Our large home has been a true two family home for the past three years, with a full second kitchen along with TV etc. we are now using about 15kWh/day during the winter. Our Tarm wood gasification, forced hot water heating system uses quite a bit of electricity but we can heat the whole deal without burning any oil, or propane, for this 4,000 sq foot two family home in northern Vermont it is well worth it. We harvest the 10 cords of hardwood out of our woods. · 28,880Wh battery bank / 15,000 Wh = 1.5 days of autonomy. I didn't know how well this would work when we added the second living space with the 9 yr old batteries at that point. But I have not had to change a thing. · I have my next set of batteries (sized them a little larger, 1350AH) waiting in reserve in my basement (properly cared for per Surrette/Rolls instructions) as I don't know when the present 13 yr + set will fall off the cliff. I'm watching them closely, no alarming signs of the end yet. Monitoring all cell post terminals with my handheld IR thermometer when battery bank is charging hard and or when the system is under a large load. So far all terminals get up to 86 degrees F at most. Water use has not changed much at all yet and specific gravity readings are all very good. · More numbers: The charge rate with 4.3k of PV only is about a C/8 on the battery bank. · Hydro is 325W, run 24/7 from late October through April, then as needed during rainy periods. · Diesel Gen set charges at 160 Amps, so during the cloudy, snowy winter periods the hydro and gen combined charge at about a C/7 rate. Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt Sherald Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 7:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro Off-grid Battery Sizing Good morning! I went to bed wondering if the off-grid battery bank sizing rules that I use for PV systems hold true for hydro-based systems. I woke up and I was still mulling this over. My battery bank sizing standard is to use the method outlined in the SEI Photovoltaics Manual. I would presume that since the charging source is fairly consistent (day-to-day and hour-to-hour) that I could then reduce the days of autonomy to 2-days. I'm curious though if anyone has advice for sizing a battery bank for hydro. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 26 02:03:03 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 23:03:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matt: I have a question for you: I have often considered mounting Class T fuses directly to a bus bar as you have done. Are you ever worried about physical strain on the fuse itself without a fuse holder? Thanks again for all of your input. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Sirum Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 4:20 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian Greetings William, I worked through this issue a little while back while designing and installing a five Radian GS8048A system. I designed a custom DC Bus System which included two 1,500A, 150mV shunts. One for metering DC to and from the Radian inverter/chargers, and one for metering combined charge controller production to the battery system. Below I have copied and pasted a couple of sections of text from OutBack Application Notes which you may find helpful. I do not know if using a mix of differently rated shunts is an issue or not; such as one 1,000A, 100mV shunt and two 500A, 50mV shunts. It is best for you to speak directly with Applications Engineering at OutBack to inquire and confirm details for your project. Also; I suggest trying to find out from OutBack when the next generation MATE System Display & Controller will be available. The MATE3 has a number of limitations and issues which will hopefully be resolved with the release of the new MATE product. It would be great if you could get the new next generation product and not have to work with the MATE3... Assuming the new MATE will be better than the MATE3 and you would be upgrading to the new MATE eventually. Also to note with multi Radian systems, or I believe any battery based grid interactive inverter system with multiple inverters which have H-bridge electronics architecture; the AC energy may flow to and from the inverters sharing a common AC "Grid" combiner and AC "Out" combiner. The Radian's AC "Grid" and AC "Out" terminals/connections are common with each other when the inverter is "selling" in Grid-Tie Mode. This allows energy to basically circulate to and from the multiple inverters in the system before/as it is exported to its grid connection. This affects the MATE3 metering and graphing. The more inverters and power capacity in the system the more this is noticed and the more the kWh values may be effected. I believe this may also effect system energy production efficiency as well. This issue is recognized in whole house back up systems and may not be noticed or as evident in systems with dedicated loads continually served from the AC "Out" connections. I have attached 3 pictures of my custom DC Bus System with the two shunts for reference. This (below) from an OutBack FLEXnet DC (FN-DC) Application Note (FA‐RP‐12/14/15): "A Note on Current Shunts Although OutBack products come equipped with 100A and 500A current shunts, the FD-NC has the ability to work with shunts as high as 1000A. The only requirement is that the voltage and current ratio (resistance) of the shunt remain the same. For example, the 500A shunts have a ratio of 0.0001 at 500A and 50mV. A 1000A shunt should have a voltage of 1000A at 100mV." This (below) from an OutBack Application Note entitled "Wiring and Combining Methods for Multi-Inverter Systems" (R1-RL-8/14/15): "Shunts and battery monitoring As with smaller systems, a separate shunt is needed for charge controllers and inverters in order to monitor loads and charging sources on separate battery monitor channels. When selecting a shunt, keep the following design considerations in mind: 1) A/V Ratio The ratio of amps to volts for a shunt must be 10,000:1 for systems using the OutBack Power FlexnetDC (FNDC). An example of a suitable shunt is one rated at 1,000A and 100mV. 2) Amps rating Shunt manufacturers recommend that a shunt not be loaded to more than 66% of its rated capacity. This derating, combined with the maximum 100mV limit on the FNDC, dictate that the largest recommended shunt be rated at 1500A, 150mV. 3) mV rating The voltage drop across the shunt when passing the maximum current for which the shunt is rated. For the FNDC, the maximum voltage drop across the shunt should not exceed 100mV. That does not mean the maximum shunt size is 1000A at 100mV. Taking into account #1 and #2 above, the limit is 1500A at 150mV with a usable current limit of 1000A. This ensures the maximum voltage drop across the shunt is 100mV (when passing 1000A). 4) Dimensions Ensure that the dimensions of the shunt are compatible with the bus bars specified and that the assembly (bus bars + shunts) fit on the backplane of the enclosure. The shunt design considerations above, combined with the FNDC’s maximum current monitoring limit of 1000A per channel essentially limit the system size if FNDC battery monitoring is to be included. Practically speaking, this limits systems that are to include FNDC battery monitoring to: a) At most five GS8048/GS8048A inverters or ten 3.0kW FXR inverters b) The same limits on FNDC battery monitoring limit the system to at most twelve FM80 charge controllers. Due to the 1000A current monitoring limit of the FNDC, large systems will have to be split up into smaller sub-systems. For example a system with 10 Radians and 20 charge controllers could be split into two sub-systems. Each would have five Radians, ten charge controllers and an FNDC. This would keep the current seen by each FNDC channel to below 1000A." I hope some of this information may be helpful. OutBack may have removed some of the Application Notes regarding larger multi Radian systems from their website. Give a shout if you can't find what you need, I may be able to help out and send you what I have on file. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com -------- Original Message Below -------- [RE-wrenches] Third Radian William Miller william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 20 20:16:12 PDT 2017 Friends: I am designing our first three 8K Radian stack. I think I have a good handle on the plumbing and wiring but I was wondering about one thing: With three Radians and a PV recombiner, we are out of shunt ports on the Flexnet DC. Have any of you dealt with this? My proposal is to gang the negatives for two or three Radians and run them through a 1000A/100mV shunt. The ratio is the same as the 500/50 offered. Will the FNDC accept that analog input? Any other considerations that might not be realized at first? Thanks in advance, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From wstahle at pacific.net Wed Apr 26 11:54:26 2017 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 08:54:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. Message-ID: Hi Folks, I was called by a customer with the complaint of the MS4024 inverter shut down and ME-ARC controller and Trimetric acting strange, intermittent and even even showing 29 volts at times. The batteries are four 2.5 year old US battery L16XC 380 AH and checking each battery showed one at 4.8 v under charge while the other three were at 7+ volts and no current. Meanwhile the specific gravity was high on all cells and even a week after removal are up at 1.275 on all three cells. I suspect an open in the cell interconnects with enough continuity to read volts but not conduct current. My question is what have any of you seen n this regard and any knowledge of cause of such a failure. Your insights and experience are greatly appreciated. They were installed by others and are out of warranty. I donated a serviceable used USB L16 to get her back to a working system. She did recall her Ex stating along the lines of "oh this one has a problem but dont worry, it'll come around" as they were installed. Many thanks, Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co P O Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 future at pacific.net CA Lic.# C10-762093 707-459-0474 From garyh at solarindependence.com Wed Apr 26 12:31:29 2017 From: garyh at solarindependence.com (garyh at solarindependence.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:31:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion tech support Message-ID: I am scheduled to be going out to a site in a couple of weeks that is experiencing frequent shutdowns and I've offered to investigate why the shutdowns are occurring. The site is 208 3 phase with six Sunny Islands and Aquion batteries. I've got SMA tech support aware in case I need to talk with them but not Aquion. Does anyone have a technical contact for Aquion at this time?? Gary From tump at swnl.net Wed Apr 26 12:38:40 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 12:38:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion tech support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hate to be an ass, but look in the mirror! There is NONE! The battery set point voltage w/ the SMA Aquion BM200 is ~57.5V UNLIKE all the other inverter manu’s suggestions of 59.8 V. Contact me off list if you want additional thoughts. TUMP > On Apr 26, 2017, at 12:31 PM, garyh at solarindependence.com wrote: > > I am scheduled to be going out to a site in a couple of weeks that is experiencing frequent shutdowns and I've offered to investigate why the shutdowns are occurring. The site is 208 3 phase with six Sunny Islands and Aquion batteries. I've got SMA tech support aware in case I need to talk with them but not Aquion. Does anyone have a technical contact for Aquion at this time?? > Gary > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 16:09:29 2017 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 16:09:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wallace, I installed some Interstate RE batteries (green case) L16's that supposedly are made by US Battery. As with Trojan and other High Capacity L16's I had several cell failures. I have always felt that gleaning more amp hours from the same box must lead to cutting corners on robustness. I have found that often when the batteries are full, they work OK for awhile but as the voltage drops and the current flow rises, the cell will eventually drop out. Other adjacent batteries in the string often overcharge to compensate. In my case with the green batteries, they were about 2 years old as well. I took them back to my distributor and replaced them with standard L16's at a special pro rated price. I have found that all lead acid batteries that have problems seem to first have a cell failure somewhere along the line and finally the capacity diminishes to the point that it is an annoyance. Seems bad cells seem more numerous lately. John Blittersdorf Rob Stubbins Solar On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Wallace Stahle wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I was called by a customer with the complaint of the MS4024 inverter shut > down and ME-ARC controller and Trimetric acting strange, intermittent and > even even showing 29 volts at times. > > The batteries are four 2.5 year old US battery L16XC 380 AH and checking > each battery showed one at 4.8 v under charge while the other three were at > 7+ volts and no current. > > Meanwhile the specific gravity was high on all cells and even a week after > removal are up at 1.275 on all three cells. > > I suspect an open in the cell interconnects with enough continuity to read > volts but not conduct current. > > My question is what have any of you seen n this regard and any knowledge > of cause of such a failure. > > Your insights and experience are greatly appreciated. > > They were installed by others and are out of warranty. I donated a > serviceable used USB L16 to get her back to a working system. > She did recall her Ex stating along the lines of "oh this one has a > problem but dont worry, it'll come around" as they were installed. > > Many thanks, > > Wallace Stahle > Future Electric Energy Co > P O Box 236 > Willits, CA 95490 > future at pacific.net > CA Lic.# C10-762093 > 707-459-0474 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Apr 26 18:18:41 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 16:18:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bc68988-8537-7eb2-7b90-ac2949dfcd5e@solarray.com> Here's a thermal image from a recent inspection of 2 v Trojan L16REs. Notice the normal batteries above and below, they are cool blue, running around 75F 2 of the cells of the center battery are obviously shorted. Cell voltage was 2.07 v compared to about 2.3 to 2.4 v for surrounding good batteries. Dead cells are much easier to find on 6 v batteries. I wouldn't have found this without the Flir 167. About 1/4 of the batteries in this set had hot cells; 25 -30 deg F warmer. Obviously time for some fresh lead. Owner couldn't recall how old the set was, he thought 2 to 4 years. Rated at 1000 cycles to 80% DOD, these Trojan RE batteries should do much better than that. I have never been impressed with L16s anyway. John, my experience has also been: higher Capacity = more premature cell failures. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 4/26/17 2:09 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > Wallace, > I installed some Interstate RE batteries (green case) L16's that > supposedly are made by US Battery. As with Trojan and other High > Capacity L16's I had several cell failures. I have always felt that > gleaning more amp hours from the same box must lead to cutting corners > on robustness. I have found that often when the batteries are full, > they work OK for awhile but as the voltage drops and the current flow > rises, the cell will eventually drop out. Other adjacent batteries in > the string often overcharge to compensate. In my case with the green > batteries, they were about 2 years old as well. I took them back to > my distributor and replaced them with standard L16's at a special pro > rated price. I have found that all lead acid batteries that have > problems seem to first have a cell failure somewhere along the line > and finally the capacity diminishes to the point that it is an > annoyance. Seems bad cells seem more numerous lately. > > John Blittersdorf > Rob Stubbins Solar > > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Wallace Stahle > wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I was called by a customer with the complaint of the MS4024 > inverter shut down and ME-ARC controller and Trimetric acting > strange, intermittent and even even showing 29 volts at times. > > The batteries are four 2.5 year old US battery L16XC 380 AH and > checking each battery showed one at 4.8 v under charge while the > other three were at 7+ volts and no current. > > Meanwhile the specific gravity was high on all cells and even a > week after removal are up at 1.275 on all three cells. > > I suspect an open in the cell interconnects with enough continuity > to read volts but not conduct current. > > My question is what have any of you seen n this regard and any > knowledge of cause of such a failure. > > Your insights and experience are greatly appreciated. > > They were installed by others and are out of warranty. I donated a > serviceable used USB L16 to get her back to a working system. > She did recall her Ex stating along the lines of "oh this one has > a problem but dont worry, it'll come around" as they were installed. > > Many thanks, > > Wallace Stahle > Future Electric Energy Co > P O Box 236 > Willits, CA 95490 > future at pacific.net > CA Lic.# C10-762093 > 707-459-0474 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ikofloiimgefdgap.bmp Type: image/bmp Size: 76626 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 19:09:41 2017 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:09:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump grounding question Message-ID: Hey everyone, I'm replacing my old DC 24V shurflo well pump with a new Grundfos 15 SQ05-110. It's the 120V AC model. Question: The Shurflo required 2 wire cable with no ground, the Grundfos has black/white/green. Can anyone think of a good reason why I should replace 100' of expensive submersible flat jacketed pump cable to swap out for wire with an EGC running to the pump? The well casing is grounded and from the well casing to the supply breaker there is an EGC. I'm struggling to think of a good reason why I should replace the wire, (besides of course something in the NEC like 110.3(B)! There's no shock hazard that I can really figure out - if the pump itself were to have a ground fault, the metal well casing would be a fault current path of way less resistance than anywhere else the water might happen to flow (plastic pipe)? I've heard some stories on the internet about how ungrounded well pumps shocked people when they were pulled up for servicing and testing, but...that sounds more like a Darwin award candidate than a real safety hazard. Well, curious to hear opinions on this. Thanks, Rebekah -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 19:15:15 2017 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:15:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump grounding question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe I should clarify here that the wire type switches at the well head, and that is the point at which the metal well casing is bonded to the EGC running with the current carrying conductors to the supply circuit 20A breaker. On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hey everyone, > I'm replacing my old DC 24V shurflo well pump with a new Grundfos 15 > SQ05-110. It's the 120V AC model. > > Question: The Shurflo required 2 wire cable with no ground, the Grundfos > has black/white/green. > > Can anyone think of a good reason why I should replace 100' of expensive > submersible flat jacketed pump cable to swap out for wire with an EGC > running to the pump? The well casing is grounded and from the well casing > to the supply breaker there is an EGC. > > I'm struggling to think of a good reason why I should replace the wire, > (besides of course something in the NEC like 110.3(B)! There's no shock > hazard that I can really figure out - if the pump itself were to have a > ground fault, the metal well casing would be a fault current path of way > less resistance than anywhere else the water might happen to flow (plastic > pipe)? > > I've heard some stories on the internet about how ungrounded well pumps > shocked people when they were pulled up for servicing and testing, > but...that sounds more like a Darwin award candidate than a real safety > hazard. > > Well, curious to hear opinions on this. > Thanks, > Rebekah > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 00:05:32 2017 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 00:05:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian ---> Class T Fuse With/Without Fuse Holder Message-ID: Greetings William, Good point. This is something I always take into consideration. I have used Class T Fuses in many situations with and without their fuse holders. In the case of the installation shown in my custom DC Bus System pictures the wire/cable type and wire management avoid putting too much physical stress on the Class T Fuses. The #4 AWG conductors are supported from above and apply very little stress on the fuses they connect to. The 4/0 AWG cabling is Cobra X-Flex (fine stand, very flexible) and each of these conductors is secured a few inches from where they connect to their fuses. Care was taken in making up these connection and they were all carefully adjusted and inspected to ensure they would not stress the fuses. I feel really good about how it all came together. The same care and attention will be needed whenever these connections are serviced and the fasteners are torqued/tightened. When well planned and carefully assembled I do not have concern there will be any issues related to not using the fuse holder. I also think about this another way as well... Using the Class T Fuse Holder adds another 2 connections to the circuit. I try to remind myself that more connections can equal more chance of issues... Although, if a manufacturer of a Class T Fuse states the fuse holder must be used with their fuse there could be an NEC violation by not using it. One thing to note about the use of these fuses in this installation is that they are supplemental over current protection (OCP). Each positive (ungrounded) conductor connecting to this DC Bus System has a means of primary over current protection and disconnect on its opposite end. The battery systems, the charge controllers, and the inverter/chargers all have circuit breaker disconnects on their respective positive circuit conductors connecting to this DC Bus System. I have seen other folks build without having the needed appropriate means of disconnect and OCP; although most folk are probably more likely to include the primary OCP, but not consider the supplemental OCP. The supplemental OCP (Class T Fuses) provide protection in the event of a fault or short in a circuit between the Bus System and the other OCP at the other equipment. Like many folks I have installed and worked on battery systems where we install a Class T Fuse directly onto the positive terminal of the battery bank or via some form of busbar or connector etc. In these cases not only do we need to take care not to stress the fuse, but the fuse itself (and added busbar/connector etc) can act like a lever and along with the mating cable lug(s) create too much stress on the battery terminal... Potentially damaging the terminal, the inner battery connection to the terminal, and/or the seal between the battery case and the terminal. Carelessly tightening the hardware/fasteners to assemble these items to the battery terminal is a common way of inflicting damage on the battery as well. I know I have been involved in some service situations where there was more stress on the Class T Fuse than I would like to see, but as best I know there have not been any fuse failures because of it. Thanks for bringing up this question! Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com -------- Original Message Below -------- [RE-wrenches] Third Radian William Miller william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 25 23:03:03 PDT 2017 Matt: I have a question for you: I have often considered mounting Class T fuses directly to a bus bar as you have done. Are you ever worried about physical strain on the fuse itself without a fuse holder? Thanks again for all of your input. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From dana at solarwork.com Wed Apr 26 23:32:23 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 21:32:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump Message-ID: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured by Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of water related companies]. I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch required. My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more reliable. A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi cutout [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. Comments please. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 27 11:39:59 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 08:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <093a2a3cbf7dcc3fad677afcaf3d400b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> What has been the reliability issue with Grundfos? I have not had any problems with them other than the above ground electronics. A side question, has anyone found a small (1/2hp) above ground household pump that is soft start and reasonably priced? > My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured by > Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of > water > related companies]. > > I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? > > Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year > warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch > required. > > My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred > installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. > > A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more > reliable. > > A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi cutout > [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. > > > > Comments please. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 27 12:12:50 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 09:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump grounding question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99b0293098fe59453d363ea24e623be2.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I have done this also! I do have respect for Darwin. As long as a school bus full of kids is not anywhere near the well and it does not sound like a fault deep in the ground will start a wildfire. That was my reasoning at least! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > Maybe I should clarify here that the wire type switches at the well head, > and that is the point at which the metal well casing is bonded to the EGC > running with the current carrying conductors to the supply circuit 20A > breaker. > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Rebekah Hren > wrote: > >> Hey everyone, >> I'm replacing my old DC 24V shurflo well pump with a new Grundfos 15 >> SQ05-110. It's the 120V AC model. >> >> Question: The Shurflo required 2 wire cable with no ground, the Grundfos >> has black/white/green. >> >> Can anyone think of a good reason why I should replace 100' of expensive >> submersible flat jacketed pump cable to swap out for wire with an EGC >> running to the pump? The well casing is grounded and from the well >> casing >> to the supply breaker there is an EGC. >> >> I'm struggling to think of a good reason why I should replace the wire, >> (besides of course something in the NEC like 110.3(B)! There's no shock >> hazard that I can really figure out - if the pump itself were to have a >> ground fault, the metal well casing would be a fault current path of way >> less resistance than anywhere else the water might happen to flow >> (plastic >> pipe)? >> >> I've heard some stories on the internet about how ungrounded well pumps >> shocked people when they were pulled up for servicing and testing, >> but...that sounds more like a Darwin award candidate than a real safety >> hazard. >> >> Well, curious to hear opinions on this. >> Thanks, >> Rebekah >> >> -- >> Tel: 336.266.8800 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 >> NC Licensed Electrical Contractor >> > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 27 12:22:27 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 09:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. In-Reply-To: <9bc68988-8537-7eb2-7b90-ac2949dfcd5e@solarray.com> References: <9bc68988-8537-7eb2-7b90-ac2949dfcd5e@solarray.com> Message-ID: The FLIR is nice but SG and voltage would have told the same thing, would it not? I have excellent experience with the L16 2V cells but will be switching to the LG RESU 10 very soon for my clients. > Here's a thermal image from a recent inspection of 2 v Trojan L16REs. > Notice the normal batteries above and below, they are cool blue, running > around 75F > > 2 of the cells of the center battery are obviously shorted. Cell > voltage was 2.07 v compared to about 2.3 to 2.4 v for surrounding good > batteries. Dead cells are much easier to find on 6 v batteries. I > wouldn't have found this without the Flir 167. > > About 1/4 of the batteries in this set had hot cells; 25 -30 deg F > warmer. Obviously time for some fresh lead. Owner couldn't recall how > old the set was, he thought 2 to 4 years. Rated at 1000 cycles to 80% > DOD, these Trojan RE batteries should do much better than that. I have > never been impressed with L16s anyway. John, my experience has also > been: higher Capacity = more premature cell failures. > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/26/17 2:09 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: >> Wallace, >> I installed some Interstate RE batteries (green case) L16's that >> supposedly are made by US Battery. As with Trojan and other High >> Capacity L16's I had several cell failures. I have always felt that >> gleaning more amp hours from the same box must lead to cutting corners >> on robustness. I have found that often when the batteries are full, >> they work OK for awhile but as the voltage drops and the current flow >> rises, the cell will eventually drop out. Other adjacent batteries in >> the string often overcharge to compensate. In my case with the green >> batteries, they were about 2 years old as well. I took them back to >> my distributor and replaced them with standard L16's at a special pro >> rated price. I have found that all lead acid batteries that have >> problems seem to first have a cell failure somewhere along the line >> and finally the capacity diminishes to the point that it is an >> annoyance. Seems bad cells seem more numerous lately. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> Rob Stubbins Solar >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Wallace Stahle > > wrote: >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> I was called by a customer with the complaint of the MS4024 >> inverter shut down and ME-ARC controller and Trimetric acting >> strange, intermittent and even even showing 29 volts at times. >> >> The batteries are four 2.5 year old US battery L16XC 380 AH and >> checking each battery showed one at 4.8 v under charge while the >> other three were at 7+ volts and no current. >> >> Meanwhile the specific gravity was high on all cells and even a >> week after removal are up at 1.275 on all three cells. >> >> I suspect an open in the cell interconnects with enough continuity >> to read volts but not conduct current. >> >> My question is what have any of you seen n this regard and any >> knowledge of cause of such a failure. >> >> Your insights and experience are greatly appreciated. >> >> They were installed by others and are out of warranty. I donated a >> serviceable used USB L16 to get her back to a working system. >> She did recall her Ex stating along the lines of "oh this one has >> a problem but dont worry, it'll come around" as they were installed. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Wallace Stahle >> Future Electric Energy Co >> P O Box 236 >> Willits, CA 95490 >> future at pacific.net >> CA Lic.# C10-762093 >> 707-459-0474 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 12:28:23 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:28:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. In-Reply-To: References: <9bc68988-8537-7eb2-7b90-ac2949dfcd5e@solarray.com> Message-ID: <002e01d2bf73$4a8ec320$dfac4960$@com> Not familiar with LG RESU 10 battery. What are they and why do you like them Dave? Thanks, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. The FLIR is nice but SG and voltage would have told the same thing, would it not? I have excellent experience with the L16 2V cells but will be switching to the LG RESU 10 very soon for my clients. From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 27 13:51:19 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 11:51:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. In-Reply-To: References: <9bc68988-8537-7eb2-7b90-ac2949dfcd5e@solarray.com> Message-ID: That was my point: voltage is not very helpful on the 2 v L16s, as all 3 cells are internally paralleled. With the Flir I was able to see all the dead cells in the set in seconds. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 4/27/17 10:22 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > The FLIR is nice but SG and voltage would have told the same thing, would > it not? > I have excellent experience with the L16 2V cells but will be switching to > the LG RESU 10 very soon for my clients. > >> Here's a thermal image from a recent inspection of 2 v Trojan L16REs. >> Notice the normal batteries above and below, they are cool blue, running >> around 75F >> >> 2 of the cells of the center battery are obviously shorted. Cell >> voltage was 2.07 v compared to about 2.3 to 2.4 v for surrounding good >> batteries. Dead cells are much easier to find on 6 v batteries. I >> wouldn't have found this without the Flir 167. >> >> About 1/4 of the batteries in this set had hot cells; 25 -30 deg F >> warmer. Obviously time for some fresh lead. Owner couldn't recall how >> old the set was, he thought 2 to 4 years. Rated at 1000 cycles to 80% >> DOD, these Trojan RE batteries should do much better than that. I have >> never been impressed with L16s anyway. John, my experience has also >> been: higher Capacity = more premature cell failures. >> >> R. Ray Walters >> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com >> BS Mech Engineering, 1988 >> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 >> Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/26/17 2:09 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: >>> Wallace, >>> I installed some Interstate RE batteries (green case) L16's that >>> supposedly are made by US Battery. As with Trojan and other High >>> Capacity L16's I had several cell failures. I have always felt that >>> gleaning more amp hours from the same box must lead to cutting corners >>> on robustness. I have found that often when the batteries are full, >>> they work OK for awhile but as the voltage drops and the current flow >>> rises, the cell will eventually drop out. Other adjacent batteries in >>> the string often overcharge to compensate. In my case with the green >>> batteries, they were about 2 years old as well. I took them back to >>> my distributor and replaced them with standard L16's at a special pro >>> rated price. I have found that all lead acid batteries that have >>> problems seem to first have a cell failure somewhere along the line >>> and finally the capacity diminishes to the point that it is an >>> annoyance. Seems bad cells seem more numerous lately. >>> >>> John Blittersdorf >>> Rob Stubbins Solar >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Wallace Stahle >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> I was called by a customer with the complaint of the MS4024 >>> inverter shut down and ME-ARC controller and Trimetric acting >>> strange, intermittent and even even showing 29 volts at times. >>> >>> The batteries are four 2.5 year old US battery L16XC 380 AH and >>> checking each battery showed one at 4.8 v under charge while the >>> other three were at 7+ volts and no current. >>> >>> Meanwhile the specific gravity was high on all cells and even a >>> week after removal are up at 1.275 on all three cells. >>> >>> I suspect an open in the cell interconnects with enough continuity >>> to read volts but not conduct current. >>> >>> My question is what have any of you seen n this regard and any >>> knowledge of cause of such a failure. >>> >>> Your insights and experience are greatly appreciated. >>> >>> They were installed by others and are out of warranty. I donated a >>> serviceable used USB L16 to get her back to a working system. >>> She did recall her Ex stating along the lines of "oh this one has >>> a problem but dont worry, it'll come around" as they were installed. >>> >>> Many thanks, >>> >>> Wallace Stahle >>> Future Electric Energy Co >>> P O Box 236 >>> Willits, CA 95490 >>> future at pacific.net >>> CA Lic.# C10-762093 >>> 707-459-0474 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 27 15:45:37 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. In-Reply-To: References: <9bc68988-8537-7eb2-7b90-ac2949dfcd5e@solarray.com> Message-ID: The 2V L16's are 2V one cell. The 6 volt L16's are (3) 2 volt cells but you should see the SG being way off, right? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > That was my point: voltage is not very helpful on the 2 v L16s, as all 3 > cells are internally paralleled. With the Flir I was able to see all > the dead cells in the set in seconds. > > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/27/17 10:22 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> The FLIR is nice but SG and voltage would have told the same thing, >> would >> it not? >> I have excellent experience with the L16 2V cells but will be switching >> to >> the LG RESU 10 very soon for my clients. >> >>> Here's a thermal image from a recent inspection of 2 v Trojan L16REs. >>> Notice the normal batteries above and below, they are cool blue, >>> running >>> around 75F >>> >>> 2 of the cells of the center battery are obviously shorted. Cell >>> voltage was 2.07 v compared to about 2.3 to 2.4 v for surrounding good >>> batteries. Dead cells are much easier to find on 6 v batteries. I >>> wouldn't have found this without the Flir 167. >>> >>> About 1/4 of the batteries in this set had hot cells; 25 -30 deg F >>> warmer. Obviously time for some fresh lead. Owner couldn't recall how >>> old the set was, he thought 2 to 4 years. Rated at 1000 cycles to 80% >>> DOD, these Trojan RE batteries should do much better than that. I have >>> never been impressed with L16s anyway. John, my experience has also >>> been: higher Capacity = more premature cell failures. >>> >>> R. Ray Walters >>> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com >>> BS Mech Engineering, 1988 >>> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 >>> Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 4/26/17 2:09 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: >>>> Wallace, >>>> I installed some Interstate RE batteries (green case) L16's that >>>> supposedly are made by US Battery. As with Trojan and other High >>>> Capacity L16's I had several cell failures. I have always felt that >>>> gleaning more amp hours from the same box must lead to cutting corners >>>> on robustness. I have found that often when the batteries are full, >>>> they work OK for awhile but as the voltage drops and the current flow >>>> rises, the cell will eventually drop out. Other adjacent batteries in >>>> the string often overcharge to compensate. In my case with the green >>>> batteries, they were about 2 years old as well. I took them back to >>>> my distributor and replaced them with standard L16's at a special pro >>>> rated price. I have found that all lead acid batteries that have >>>> problems seem to first have a cell failure somewhere along the line >>>> and finally the capacity diminishes to the point that it is an >>>> annoyance. Seems bad cells seem more numerous lately. >>>> >>>> John Blittersdorf >>>> Rob Stubbins Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Wallace Stahle >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Folks, >>>> >>>> I was called by a customer with the complaint of the MS4024 >>>> inverter shut down and ME-ARC controller and Trimetric acting >>>> strange, intermittent and even even showing 29 volts at times. >>>> >>>> The batteries are four 2.5 year old US battery L16XC 380 AH and >>>> checking each battery showed one at 4.8 v under charge while the >>>> other three were at 7+ volts and no current. >>>> >>>> Meanwhile the specific gravity was high on all cells and even a >>>> week after removal are up at 1.275 on all three cells. >>>> >>>> I suspect an open in the cell interconnects with enough >>>> continuity >>>> to read volts but not conduct current. >>>> >>>> My question is what have any of you seen n this regard and any >>>> knowledge of cause of such a failure. >>>> >>>> Your insights and experience are greatly appreciated. >>>> >>>> They were installed by others and are out of warranty. I donated >>>> a >>>> serviceable used USB L16 to get her back to a working system. >>>> She did recall her Ex stating along the lines of "oh this one has >>>> a problem but dont worry, it'll come around" as they were >>>> installed. >>>> >>>> Many thanks, >>>> >>>> Wallace Stahle >>>> Future Electric Energy Co >>>> P O Box 236 >>>> Willits, CA 95490 >>>> future at pacific.net >>>> CA Lic.# C10-762093 >>>> 707-459-0474 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 27 15:52:34 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. In-Reply-To: <002e01d2bf73$4a8ec320$dfac4960$@com> References: <9bc68988-8537-7eb2-7b90-ac2949dfcd5e@solarray.com> <002e01d2bf73$4a8ec320$dfac4960$@com> Message-ID: <6c152e8d2432884d4c494cae240ee655.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> The LG RESU series are Lithium Ion 10KWH batteries. I am testing them for Schneider Electronics solar division with their new product the Conext Bridge for their battery based XW+ and SW inverter chargers. Outback is also going to use them with their new inverter/charger "Skybox" Both of these products are scheduled for the 2nd half of 2017. LG probably makes one of the safest new technology batteries in the world and is an upgrade option for the Tesla roadster. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > Not familiar with LG RESU 10 battery. What are they and why do you like > them > Dave? > > Thanks, > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > 802-888-4917 home > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:22 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Failed L16 with perfect Sp.Gr. > > The FLIR is nice but SG and voltage would have told the same thing, would > it > not? > I have excellent experience with the L16 2V cells but will be switching to > the LG RESU 10 very soon for my clients. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 14:01:46 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:01:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: <093a2a3cbf7dcc3fad677afcaf3d400b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> <093a2a3cbf7dcc3fad677afcaf3d400b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Grundfos SCALA2 its the new version of the MQ pump. jay peltz power > On Apr 27, 2017, at 7:39 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > What has been the reliability issue with Grundfos? I have not had any > problems with them other than the above ground electronics. > > A side question, has anyone found a small (1/2hp) above ground household > pump that is soft start and reasonably priced? > > > > >> My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured by >> Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of >> water >> related companies]. >> >> I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? >> >> Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year >> warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch >> required. >> >> My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred >> installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. >> >> A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more >> reliable. >> >> A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi cutout >> [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. >> >> >> >> Comments please. >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 18:39:52 2017 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 15:39:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion tech support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With the low discharge rate of the Aquion battery, it would have to be a larger bank to handle 6 Sunny Island inverters. To put out the 36kW to power those inverters at full rate you'd need at least 40 stacks at a good state of charge to do that. At lower state of charge or if they are the older versions like S20 or S30 you'd probably need more stacks to handle it. I have a note indicating that SMA considered 16 stacks to be the minimum for each Sunny Island. That would be 96 stacks. Brad On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Tump wrote: > Hate to be an ass, but look in the mirror! There is NONE! The battery set > point voltage w/ the SMA Aquion BM200 is ~57.5V UNLIKE all the other > inverter manu’s suggestions of 59.8 V. Contact me off list if you want > additional thoughts. TUMP > > On Apr 26, 2017, at 12:31 PM, garyh at solarindependence.com wrote: > > I am scheduled to be going out to a site in a couple of weeks that is > experiencing frequent shutdowns and I've offered to investigate why the > shutdowns are occurring. The site is 208 3 phase with six Sunny Islands and > Aquion batteries. I've got SMA tech support aware in case I need to talk > with them but not Aquion. Does anyone have a technical contact for Aquion > at this time?? > Gary > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <(207)%20832-7574> Cl. > 610-517-8401 <(610)%20517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 18:48:26 2017 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 15:48:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana, For off grid you may not want to use the constant pressure pumps. They will run a little bit, a lot of the time to keep the pressure constant. I think it might be more efficient to use a pressure switch and regular pressure tank. Anyone with experience in this? Brad On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Dana wrote: > My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured by > Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of > water related companies]. > > I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? > > Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year > warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch required. > > My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred > installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. > > A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more > reliable. > > A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi cutout > [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. > > > > Comments please… > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 27 18:52:55 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 15:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> <093a2a3cbf7dcc3fad677afcaf3d400b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Thanks Jay, I will read the manual later but would you know for sure that is pump soft starts? The MQ did not. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > Grundfos SCALA2 > its the new version of the MQ pump. > > jay > > peltz power >> On Apr 27, 2017, at 7:39 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> wrote: >> >> What has been the reliability issue with Grundfos? I have not had any >> problems with them other than the above ground electronics. >> >> A side question, has anyone found a small (1/2hp) above ground household >> pump that is soft start and reasonably priced? >> >> >> >> >>> My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured >>> by >>> Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of >>> water >>> related companies]. >>> >>> I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? >>> >>> Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year >>> warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch >>> required. >>> >>> My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred >>> installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. >>> >>> A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more >>> reliable. >>> >>> A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi >>> cutout >>> [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. >>> >>> >>> >>> Comments please. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> >>> 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>> >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>> >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> >>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 27 18:58:26 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 16:58:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <1110e762-762f-c52e-ab2f-1ac16f62dffa@solarray.com> Constant Pressure pumps are a much better choice off grid. No starting surge is huge, and the power draw is related to the water flow, so at low flow rates, the power is only a fraction of full run watts. Pressure switches and P tanks are archaic. The variable pressure and the light dimming surges are very 20th century, and we have a responsibility to bring off grid into the 21st century. Efficiency isn't much different, and frankly just isn't that important unless you are irrigating. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 4/27/17 4:48 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > Dana, > > For off grid you may not want to use the constant pressure pumps. They > will run a little bit, a lot of the time to keep the pressure > constant. I think it might be more efficient to use a pressure switch > and regular pressure tank. Anyone with experience in this? > > Brad > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Dana > wrote: > > My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps > manufactured by Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem > to be buying lots of water related companies]. > > I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? > > Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, > 3-year warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure > switch required. > > My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval > hundred installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. > > A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot > more reliable. > > A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi > cutout [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. > > Comments please… > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 27 19:04:46 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 16:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Unless it is a very large offgrid system I agree with Brad. Also if the electrics fail, are they underground? I would typically pump to a tank and then drain to a surface pump and pressure tank/switch at the home. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > Dana, > > For off grid you may not want to use the constant pressure pumps. They > will > run a little bit, a lot of the time to keep the pressure constant. I think > it might be more efficient to use a pressure switch and regular pressure > tank. Anyone with experience in this? > > Brad > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Dana wrote: > >> My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured by >> Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of >> water related companies]. >> >> I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? >> >> Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year >> warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch >> required. >> >> My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred >> installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. >> >> A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more >> reliable. >> >> A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi cutout >> [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. >> >> >> >> Comments please… >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> >> dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From reellison at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 19:09:01 2017 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:09:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I tangled with one system that had a constant pressure pump He had moved an off grid system to a location where grid was available And wanted to use it as a back up He ended up selling the entire system once I explain to them the thing was never going to stop running at every possible opportunity It was my first experience with one of those I'll never do it again Bob ellison > On Apr 27, 2017, at 6:48 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > > Dana, > > For off grid you may not want to use the constant pressure pumps. They will run a little bit, a lot of the time to keep the pressure constant. I think it might be more efficient to use a pressure switch and regular pressure tank. Anyone with experience in this? > > Brad > >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Dana wrote: >> My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured by Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of water related companies]. >> >> I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? >> >> Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch required. >> >> My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. >> >> A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more reliable. >> >> A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi cutout [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. >> >> >> >> Comments please… >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 19:09:47 2017 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:09:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Also I could never convince the guy to put in a pressure tank and a switch The reason he got the pump so we didn't have to have a pressure tank Bob > On Apr 27, 2017, at 6:48 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > > Dana, > > For off grid you may not want to use the constant pressure pumps. They will run a little bit, a lot of the time to keep the pressure constant. I think it might be more efficient to use a pressure switch and regular pressure tank. Anyone with experience in this? > > Brad > >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Dana wrote: >> My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured by Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of water related companies]. >> >> I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? >> >> Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch required. >> >> My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. >> >> A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more reliable. >> >> A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi cutout [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. >> >> >> >> Comments please… >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 27 19:20:37 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:20:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <108fc75f-8426-ac3b-7fc0-109d7ee42e37@solarray.com> We've used the Grundfos SQE and the MQ lines of CP pumps and never had problems. I've only seen them keep running, if there was a leak. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 4/27/17 5:09 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > I tangled with one system that had a constant pressure pump > He had moved an off grid system to a location where grid was available > And wanted to use it as a back up > > He ended up selling the entire system once I explain to them the thing > was never going to stop running at every possible opportunity > > It was my first experience with one of those I'll never do it again > > Bob ellison > > On Apr 27, 2017, at 6:48 PM, Bradley Bassett > wrote: > >> Dana, >> >> For off grid you may not want to use the constant pressure pumps. >> They will run a little bit, a lot of the time to keep the pressure >> constant. I think it might be more efficient to use a pressure switch >> and regular pressure tank. Anyone with experience in this? >> >> Brad >> >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Dana > > wrote: >> >> My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps >> manufactured by Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem >> to be buying lots of water related companies]. >> >> I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? >> >> Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, >> 3-year warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure >> switch required. >> >> My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval >> hundred installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. >> >> A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot >> more reliable. >> >> A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi >> cutout [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. >> >> Comments please… >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ >> >> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 19:20:48 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:20:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Brad We have used the grundfus 120 volt MQ On demand Pressure pump and have had no issues at all, uses very little power even when working hard, say a show On demand water heater UV light and primary filters. the entire system is drained to prevent freezing in the winters, it has been years with most of these and no trouble Jerry On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > Dana, > > For off grid you may not want to use the constant pressure pumps. They > will run a little bit, a lot of the time to keep the pressure constant. I > think it might be more efficient to use a pressure switch and regular > pressure tank. Anyone with experience in this? > > Brad > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Dana wrote: > >> My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured by >> Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of >> water related companies]. >> >> I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? >> >> Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year >> warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch required. >> >> My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred >> installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. >> >> A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more >> reliable. >> >> A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi cutout >> [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. >> >> >> >> Comments please… >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 19:41:33 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:41:33 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian ---> Class T Fuse With/Without Fuse Holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches In the event you or some else installed a Class T fuse and you want to protect it a little more from cable stress, installing it inside a PVC C conduit body and cover and fastening the cables to the fuse inside that, this will protect the fuse from stress and metallic contact and you can put a label on it stating size and type. Jerry On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Matthew Sirum wrote: > Greetings William, > > Good point. This is something I always take into consideration. I > have used Class T Fuses in many situations with and without their fuse > holders. In the case of the installation shown in my custom DC Bus > System pictures the wire/cable type and wire management avoid putting > too much physical stress on the Class T Fuses. The #4 AWG conductors > are supported from above and apply very little stress on the fuses > they connect to. The 4/0 AWG cabling is Cobra X-Flex (fine stand, > very flexible) and each of these conductors is secured a few inches > from where they connect to their fuses. Care was taken in making up > these connection and they were all carefully adjusted and inspected to > ensure they would not stress the fuses. I feel really good about how > it all came together. The same care and attention will be needed > whenever these connections are serviced and the fasteners are > torqued/tightened. When well planned and carefully assembled I do not > have concern there will be any issues related to not using the fuse > holder. I also think about this another way as well... Using the > Class T Fuse Holder adds another 2 connections to the circuit. I try > to remind myself that more connections can equal more chance of > issues... Although, if a manufacturer of a Class T Fuse states the > fuse holder must be used with their fuse there could be an NEC > violation by not using it. > > One thing to note about the use of these fuses in this installation is > that they are supplemental over current protection (OCP). Each > positive (ungrounded) conductor connecting to this DC Bus System has a > means of primary over current protection and disconnect on its > opposite end. The battery systems, the charge controllers, and the > inverter/chargers all have circuit breaker disconnects on their > respective positive circuit conductors connecting to this DC Bus > System. I have seen other folks build without having the needed > appropriate means of disconnect and OCP; although most folk are > probably more likely to include the primary OCP, but not consider the > supplemental OCP. The supplemental OCP (Class T Fuses) provide > protection in the event of a fault or short in a circuit between the > Bus System and the other OCP at the other equipment. > > Like many folks I have installed and worked on battery systems where > we install a Class T Fuse directly onto the positive terminal of the > battery bank or via some form of busbar or connector etc. In these > cases not only do we need to take care not to stress the fuse, but the > fuse itself (and added busbar/connector etc) can act like a lever and > along with the mating cable lug(s) create too much stress on the > battery terminal... Potentially damaging the terminal, the inner > battery connection to the terminal, and/or the seal between the > battery case and the terminal. Carelessly tightening the > hardware/fasteners to assemble these items to the battery terminal is > a common way of inflicting damage on the battery as well. I know I > have been involved in some service situations where there was more > stress on the Class T Fuse than I would like to see, but as best I > know there have not been any fuse failures because of it. > > Thanks for bringing up this question! > > Best regards, > > ----MATT > > Matthew Sirum > P.O. Box 1227 > Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA > phone: +1.413.773.0611 > email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com > > > -------- Original Message Below -------- > > [RE-wrenches] Third Radian > > William Miller william at millersolar.com > Tue Apr 25 23:03:03 PDT 2017 > > Matt: > > I have a question for you: I have often considered mounting Class T fuses > directly to a bus bar as you have done. Are you ever worried about > physical > strain on the fuse itself without a fuse holder? > > Thanks again for all of your input. > > William Miller > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 27 21:00:05 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:00:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: <093a2a3cbf7dcc3fad677afcaf3d400b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> <093a2a3cbf7dcc3fad677afcaf3d400b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <004301d2bfba$c66ead10$534c0730$@solarwork.com> Precisely, many dead controllers many times & 2 that died just past the warranty........... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump What has been the reliability issue with Grundfos? I have not had any problems with them other than the above ground electronics. A side question, has anyone found a small (1/2hp) above ground household pump that is soft start and reasonably priced? > My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured > by Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots > of water related companies]. > > I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? > > Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, > 3-year warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure > switch required. > > My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred > installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. > > A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more > reliable. > > A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi > cutout > [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. > > > > Comments please. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 27 21:04:22 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:04:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable Message-ID: <004401d2bfbb$5f9e11b0$1eda3510$@solarwork.com> Hey All'yall. I am looking for 185' of 600 volt CAT 5 cable for my off grid MidNite Solar rapid shut down system. I am not looking for the USE version. Please contact me off list. Thankyou! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 27 20:56:35 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 18:56:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d2bf06$e2634030$a729c090$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <003e01d2bfba$49542800$dbfc7800$@solarwork.com> This is not a constant pressure pump & I am using 2 119 Gallon tanks to reduce the # of pump starts particularly in the winter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 5:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sta-Rite Submersible Well Pump Brad We have used the grundfus 120 volt MQ On demand Pressure pump and have had no issues at all, uses very little power even when working hard, say a show On demand water heater UV light and primary filters. the entire system is drained to prevent freezing in the winters, it has been years with most of these and no trouble Jerry On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Bradley Bassett > wrote: Dana, For off grid you may not want to use the constant pressure pumps. They will run a little bit, a lot of the time to keep the pressure constant. I think it might be more efficient to use a pressure switch and regular pressure tank. Anyone with experience in this? Brad On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Dana > wrote: My well driller-well pump guy is offering Sta-Rite pumps manufactured by Pentair [as in Pentair water filtration they seem to be buying lots of water related companies]. I am curious as to feedback on these, has anyone used them? Soft start, digital controls, easy programming, stainless steel, 3-year warranty, & includes a pressure transducer, so no pressure switch required. My pump guy says he has only had 1 issue on 1 pump in serval hundred installed. Almost sounds too good to believe. A bit less $ retail than a Grundfoss but supposedly a whole lot more reliable. A 1 HP motor 20 GPM pump draws 4.7 Amp/240 VA as it hits a 60 psi cutout [1,128 watts peak] though I will set to 30/50 psi. Comments please… ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 27 22:41:21 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:41:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian ---> Class T Fuse With/Without Fuse Holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry: I thought splices or connections were forbade in condulettes. This sounds inherently code non-compliant. Do you have information to the contrary? William > On Apr 27, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > In the event you or some else installed a Class T fuse and you want to protect it a little more from cable stress, installing it inside a PVC C conduit body and cover and fastening the cables to the fuse inside that, this will protect the fuse from stress and metallic contact and you can put a label on it stating size and type. > Jerry > >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Matthew Sirum wrote: >> Greetings William, >> >> Good point. This is something I always take into consideration. I >> have used Class T Fuses in many situations with and without their fuse >> holders. In the case of the installation shown in my custom DC Bus >> System pictures the wire/cable type and wire management avoid putting >> too much physical stress on the Class T Fuses. The #4 AWG conductors >> are supported from above and apply very little stress on the fuses >> they connect to. The 4/0 AWG cabling is Cobra X-Flex (fine stand, >> very flexible) and each of these conductors is secured a few inches >> from where they connect to their fuses. Care was taken in making up >> these connection and they were all carefully adjusted and inspected to >> ensure they would not stress the fuses. I feel really good about how >> it all came together. The same care and attention will be needed >> whenever these connections are serviced and the fasteners are >> torqued/tightened. When well planned and carefully assembled I do not >> have concern there will be any issues related to not using the fuse >> holder. I also think about this another way as well... Using the >> Class T Fuse Holder adds another 2 connections to the circuit. I try >> to remind myself that more connections can equal more chance of >> issues... Although, if a manufacturer of a Class T Fuse states the >> fuse holder must be used with their fuse there could be an NEC >> violation by not using it. >> >> One thing to note about the use of these fuses in this installation is >> that they are supplemental over current protection (OCP). Each >> positive (ungrounded) conductor connecting to this DC Bus System has a >> means of primary over current protection and disconnect on its >> opposite end. The battery systems, the charge controllers, and the >> inverter/chargers all have circuit breaker disconnects on their >> respective positive circuit conductors connecting to this DC Bus >> System. I have seen other folks build without having the needed >> appropriate means of disconnect and OCP; although most folk are >> probably more likely to include the primary OCP, but not consider the >> supplemental OCP. The supplemental OCP (Class T Fuses) provide >> protection in the event of a fault or short in a circuit between the >> Bus System and the other OCP at the other equipment. >> >> Like many folks I have installed and worked on battery systems where >> we install a Class T Fuse directly onto the positive terminal of the >> battery bank or via some form of busbar or connector etc. In these >> cases not only do we need to take care not to stress the fuse, but the >> fuse itself (and added busbar/connector etc) can act like a lever and >> along with the mating cable lug(s) create too much stress on the >> battery terminal... Potentially damaging the terminal, the inner >> battery connection to the terminal, and/or the seal between the >> battery case and the terminal. Carelessly tightening the >> hardware/fasteners to assemble these items to the battery terminal is >> a common way of inflicting damage on the battery as well. I know I >> have been involved in some service situations where there was more >> stress on the Class T Fuse than I would like to see, but as best I >> know there have not been any fuse failures because of it. >> >> Thanks for bringing up this question! >> >> Best regards, >> >> ----MATT >> >> Matthew Sirum >> P.O. Box 1227 >> Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA >> phone: +1.413.773.0611 >> email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com >> >> >> -------- Original Message Below -------- >> >> [RE-wrenches] Third Radian >> >> William Miller william at millersolar.com >> Tue Apr 25 23:03:03 PDT 2017 >> >> Matt: >> >> I have a question for you: I have often considered mounting Class T fuses >> directly to a bus bar as you have done. Are you ever worried about physical >> strain on the fuse itself without a fuse holder? >> >> Thanks again for all of your input. >> >> William Miller >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 27 23:19:55 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 20:19:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable In-Reply-To: <004401d2bfbb$5f9e11b0$1eda3510$@solarwork.com> References: <004401d2bfbb$5f9e11b0$1eda3510$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana: The garden variety Cat5 we have been using is rated at 300 volts. Unless your off-grid system is using 600 volt controllers, standard Cat5 should be code compliant. We did source a Belden 600 V Cat5 and used it when we did not really need to. It was expensive and very hard to terminate. (I damaged an Outback Hub 10. Expensive mistake). 600 volt Cat5 can be had, but I recommend you avoid using it if possible. William Miller > On Apr 27, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey All’yall. > > I am looking for 185’ of 600 volt CAT 5 cable for my off grid MidNite Solar rapid shut down system. > I am not looking for the USE version. > > Please contact me off list. > > Thankyou! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Apr 28 08:08:09 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 08:08:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian ---> Class T Fuse With/Without Fuse Holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A74E87E-4A30-4DE7-B88F-B5E649D59146@swnl.net> I have seen these conduit boxes torch off, like to see and have in free air. Supporting battery cable makes more sense then the hassle of installing this is a LB. T > On Apr 27, 2017, at 7:41 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > In the event you or some else installed a Class T fuse and you want to protect it a little more from cable stress, installing it inside a PVC C conduit body and cover and fastening the cables to the fuse inside that, this will protect the fuse from stress and metallic contact and you can put a label on it stating size and type. > Jerry > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Matthew Sirum > wrote: > Greetings William, > > Good point. This is something I always take into consideration. I > have used Class T Fuses in many situations with and without their fuse > holders. In the case of the installation shown in my custom DC Bus > System pictures the wire/cable type and wire management avoid putting > too much physical stress on the Class T Fuses. The #4 AWG conductors > are supported from above and apply very little stress on the fuses > they connect to. The 4/0 AWG cabling is Cobra X-Flex (fine stand, > very flexible) and each of these conductors is secured a few inches > from where they connect to their fuses. Care was taken in making up > these connection and they were all carefully adjusted and inspected to > ensure they would not stress the fuses. I feel really good about how > it all came together. The same care and attention will be needed > whenever these connections are serviced and the fasteners are > torqued/tightened. When well planned and carefully assembled I do not > have concern there will be any issues related to not using the fuse > holder. I also think about this another way as well... Using the > Class T Fuse Holder adds another 2 connections to the circuit. I try > to remind myself that more connections can equal more chance of > issues... Although, if a manufacturer of a Class T Fuse states the > fuse holder must be used with their fuse there could be an NEC > violation by not using it. > > One thing to note about the use of these fuses in this installation is > that they are supplemental over current protection (OCP). Each > positive (ungrounded) conductor connecting to this DC Bus System has a > means of primary over current protection and disconnect on its > opposite end. The battery systems, the charge controllers, and the > inverter/chargers all have circuit breaker disconnects on their > respective positive circuit conductors connecting to this DC Bus > System. I have seen other folks build without having the needed > appropriate means of disconnect and OCP; although most folk are > probably more likely to include the primary OCP, but not consider the > supplemental OCP. The supplemental OCP (Class T Fuses) provide > protection in the event of a fault or short in a circuit between the > Bus System and the other OCP at the other equipment. > > Like many folks I have installed and worked on battery systems where > we install a Class T Fuse directly onto the positive terminal of the > battery bank or via some form of busbar or connector etc. In these > cases not only do we need to take care not to stress the fuse, but the > fuse itself (and added busbar/connector etc) can act like a lever and > along with the mating cable lug(s) create too much stress on the > battery terminal... Potentially damaging the terminal, the inner > battery connection to the terminal, and/or the seal between the > battery case and the terminal. Carelessly tightening the > hardware/fasteners to assemble these items to the battery terminal is > a common way of inflicting damage on the battery as well. I know I > have been involved in some service situations where there was more > stress on the Class T Fuse than I would like to see, but as best I > know there have not been any fuse failures because of it. > > Thanks for bringing up this question! > > Best regards, > > ----MATT > > Matthew Sirum > P.O. Box 1227 > Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA > phone: +1.413.773.0611 > email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com > > > -------- Original Message Below -------- > > [RE-wrenches] Third Radian > > William Miller william at millersolar.com > Tue Apr 25 23:03:03 PDT 2017 > > Matt: > > I have a question for you: I have often considered mounting Class T fuses > directly to a bus bar as you have done. Are you ever worried about physical > strain on the fuse itself without a fuse holder? > > Thanks again for all of your input. > > William Miller > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Apr 28 09:58:12 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 06:58:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian ---> Class T Fuse With/Without Fuse Holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07114387bdec232e4bfe4fb6524e3f31@mail.gmail.com> Hi William, Check out NEC 314.16(C)(2): I don’t know per se about putting fuses in conduit bodies, but the code allows for some limited splices, taps, or devices in conduit bodies. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 7:41 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian ---> Class T Fuse With/Without Fuse Holder Jerry: I thought splices or connections were forbade in condulettes. This sounds inherently code non-compliant. Do you have information to the contrary? William On Apr 27, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches In the event you or some else installed a Class T fuse and you want to protect it a little more from cable stress, installing it inside a PVC C conduit body and cover and fastening the cables to the fuse inside that, this will protect the fuse from stress and metallic contact and you can put a label on it stating size and type. Jerry On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Matthew Sirum wrote: Greetings William, Good point. This is something I always take into consideration. I have used Class T Fuses in many situations with and without their fuse holders. In the case of the installation shown in my custom DC Bus System pictures the wire/cable type and wire management avoid putting too much physical stress on the Class T Fuses. The #4 AWG conductors are supported from above and apply very little stress on the fuses they connect to. The 4/0 AWG cabling is Cobra X-Flex (fine stand, very flexible) and each of these conductors is secured a few inches from where they connect to their fuses. Care was taken in making up these connection and they were all carefully adjusted and inspected to ensure they would not stress the fuses. I feel really good about how it all came together. The same care and attention will be needed whenever these connections are serviced and the fasteners are torqued/tightened. When well planned and carefully assembled I do not have concern there will be any issues related to not using the fuse holder. I also think about this another way as well... Using the Class T Fuse Holder adds another 2 connections to the circuit. I try to remind myself that more connections can equal more chance of issues... Although, if a manufacturer of a Class T Fuse states the fuse holder must be used with their fuse there could be an NEC violation by not using it. One thing to note about the use of these fuses in this installation is that they are supplemental over current protection (OCP). Each positive (ungrounded) conductor connecting to this DC Bus System has a means of primary over current protection and disconnect on its opposite end. The battery systems, the charge controllers, and the inverter/chargers all have circuit breaker disconnects on their respective positive circuit conductors connecting to this DC Bus System. I have seen other folks build without having the needed appropriate means of disconnect and OCP; although most folk are probably more likely to include the primary OCP, but not consider the supplemental OCP. The supplemental OCP (Class T Fuses) provide protection in the event of a fault or short in a circuit between the Bus System and the other OCP at the other equipment. Like many folks I have installed and worked on battery systems where we install a Class T Fuse directly onto the positive terminal of the battery bank or via some form of busbar or connector etc. In these cases not only do we need to take care not to stress the fuse, but the fuse itself (and added busbar/connector etc) can act like a lever and along with the mating cable lug(s) create too much stress on the battery terminal... Potentially damaging the terminal, the inner battery connection to the terminal, and/or the seal between the battery case and the terminal. Carelessly tightening the hardware/fasteners to assemble these items to the battery terminal is a common way of inflicting damage on the battery as well. I know I have been involved in some service situations where there was more stress on the Class T Fuse than I would like to see, but as best I know there have not been any fuse failures because of it. Thanks for bringing up this question! Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com -------- Original Message Below -------- [RE-wrenches] Third Radian William Miller william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 25 23:03:03 PDT 2017 Matt: I have a question for you: I have often considered mounting Class T fuses directly to a bus bar as you have done. Are you ever worried about physical strain on the fuse itself without a fuse holder? Thanks again for all of your input. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 40208 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 28 07:36:33 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 05:36:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable In-Reply-To: References: <004401d2bfbb$5f9e11b0$1eda3510$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <005f01d2c013$b0a57230$11f05690$@solarwork.com> Thanks I will look into this option. This is my first go around with the rapid shut down & was going with the Midnite manual recommendation. So far sourcing this has not been easy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable Dana: The garden variety Cat5 we have been using is rated at 300 volts. Unless your off-grid system is using 600 volt controllers, standard Cat5 should be code compliant. We did source a Belden 600 V Cat5 and used it when we did not really need to. It was expensive and very hard to terminate. (I damaged an Outback Hub 10. Expensive mistake). 600 volt Cat5 can be had, but I recommend you avoid using it if possible. William Miller On Apr 27, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Dana > wrote: Hey All’yall. I am looking for 185’ of 600 volt CAT 5 cable for my off grid MidNite Solar rapid shut down system. I am not looking for the USE version. Please contact me off list. Thankyou! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 28 08:57:23 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 08:57:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian ---> Class T Fuse With/Without Fuse Holder In-Reply-To: <7A74E87E-4A30-4DE7-B88F-B5E649D59146@swnl.net> References: <7A74E87E-4A30-4DE7-B88F-B5E649D59146@swnl.net> Message-ID: <20170428125723.33EF910E56@che.dreamhost.com> Not an LB, but conduit body (straight). This is how Backwoods Solar used to sell the class T fuseholder. Also the code says splices are allowed as long as the conduit body is marked with its volume by the manufacturer. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: "Tump" Sent: ‎4/‎28/‎2017 8:08 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Third Radian ---> Class T Fuse With/Without Fuse Holder I have seen these conduit boxes torch off, like to see and have in free air. Supporting battery cable makes more sense then the hassle of installing this is a LB. T > On Apr 27, 2017, at 7:41 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > In the event you or some else installed a Class T fuse and you want to protect it a little more from cable stress, installing it inside a PVC C conduit body and cover and fastening the cables to the fuse inside that, this will protect the fuse from stress and metallic contact and you can put a label on it stating size and type. > Jerry > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Matthew Sirum > wrote: > Greetings William, > > Good point. This is something I always take into consideration. I > have used Class T Fuses in many situations with and without their fuse > holders. In the case of the installation shown in my custom DC Bus > System pictures the wire/cable type and wire management avoid putting > too much physical stress on the Class T Fuses. The #4 AWG conductors > are supported from above and apply very little stress on the fuses > they connect to. The 4/0 AWG cabling is Cobra X-Flex (fine stand, > very flexible) and each of these conductors is secured a few inches > from where they connect to their fuses. Care was taken in making up > these connection and they were all carefully adjusted and inspected to > ensure they would not stress the fuses. I feel really good about how > it all came together. The same care and attention will be needed > whenever these connections are serviced and the fasteners are > torqued/tightened. When well planned and carefully assembled I do not > have concern there will be any issues related to not using the fuse > holder. I also think about this another way as well... Using the > Class T Fuse Holder adds another 2 connections to the circuit. I try > to remind myself that more connections can equal more chance of > issues... Although, if a manufacturer of a Class T Fuse states the > fuse holder must be used with their fuse there could be an NEC > violation by not using it. > > One thing to note about the use of these fuses in this installation is > that they are supplemental over current protection (OCP). Each > positive (ungrounded) conductor connecting to this DC Bus System has a > means of primary over current protection and disconnect on its > opposite end. The battery systems, the charge controllers, and the > inverter/chargers all have circuit breaker disconnects on their > respective positive circuit conductors connecting to this DC Bus > System. I have seen other folks build without having the needed > appropriate means of disconnect and OCP; although most folk are > probably more likely to include the primary OCP, but not consider the > supplemental OCP. The supplemental OCP (Class T Fuses) provide > protection in the event of a fault or short in a circuit between the > Bus System and the other OCP at the other equipment. > > Like many folks I have installed and worked on battery systems where > we install a Class T Fuse directly onto the positive terminal of the > battery bank or via some form of busbar or connector etc. In these > cases not only do we need to take care not to stress the fuse, but the > fuse itself (and added busbar/connector etc) can act like a lever and > along with the mating cable lug(s) create too much stress on the > battery terminal... Potentially damaging the terminal, the inner > battery connection to the terminal, and/or the seal between the > battery case and the terminal. Carelessly tightening the > hardware/fasteners to assemble these items to the battery terminal is > a common way of inflicting damage on the battery as well. I know I > have been involved in some service situations where there was more > stress on the Class T Fuse than I would like to see, but as best I > know there have not been any fuse failures because of it. > > Thanks for bringing up this question! > > Best regards, > > ----MATT > > Matthew Sirum > P.O. Box 1227 > Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA > phone: +1.413.773.0611 > email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com > > > -------- Original Message Below -------- > > [RE-wrenches] Third Radian > > William Miller william at millersolar.com > Tue Apr 25 23:03:03 PDT 2017 > > Matt: > > I have a question for you: I have often considered mounting Class T fuses > directly to a bus bar as you have done. Are you ever worried about physical > strain on the fuse itself without a fuse holder? > > Thanks again for all of your input. > > William Miller > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Apr 28 10:41:33 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 10:41:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable In-Reply-To: <005f01d2c013$b0a57230$11f05690$@solarwork.com> References: <004401d2bfbb$5f9e11b0$1eda3510$@solarwork.com> <005f01d2c013$b0a57230$11f05690$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <0CD66F08-C789-4C45-BD89-F407C08E3C26@swnl.net> Midnite has this and can sell it to you directly if you wish. > On Apr 28, 2017, at 7:36 AM, Dana wrote: > > Thanks I will look into this option. This is my first go around with the rapid shut down & was going with the Midnite manual recommendation. So far sourcing this has not been easy. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:20 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable > > Dana: > > The garden variety Cat5 we have been using is rated at 300 volts. Unless your off-grid system is using 600 volt controllers, standard Cat5 should be code compliant. > > We did source a Belden 600 V Cat5 and used it when we did not really need to. It was expensive and very hard to terminate. (I damaged an Outback Hub 10. Expensive mistake). > > 600 volt Cat5 can be had, but I recommend you avoid using it if possible. > > William Miller > > On Apr 27, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Dana > wrote: > >> Hey All’yall. >> >> I am looking for 185’ of 600 volt CAT 5 cable for my off grid MidNite Solar rapid shut down system. >> I am not looking for the USE version. >> >> Please contact me off list. >> >> Thankyou! >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stc.jason at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 10:45:53 2017 From: stc.jason at gmail.com (Jason Fisher (STC)) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 10:45:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention In-Reply-To: <8344c7169af106724caf9894ec73be50@mail.gmail.com> References: <8f7c6ca1ef4f6481e2090393913defa7@mail.gmail.com> <8344c7169af106724caf9894ec73be50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah, I better understand your question now August. You are basically pointing out that in any loadcenter, if the total sum of all loads can be limited then why would we limited the sum of all sources that feed that panelboard? I've certainly heard this questioned before and I understand where it is coming from. The challenge with this argument is that it really applies to all types of connections between multiple sources and loads, including commercial/industrial and residential and any source such as utility, solar, wind, rotating generators and even storage. In order to modify any NEC language for the situation you mention, all other types of interconnections would need to be considered. In general, there must be a single OCP to prevent conductors or busbars from overload. It is a rare case in the Code where a bus is allowed to be protected through the use of multiple smaller OCPs that sum together. Our PV combiner boxes can be one of those rare cases. The old split-bus service panel would be another. Within standard AC loadcenters it is a particularly problematic argument since additional breakers can be added or increased in size very easily. A simple warning label may not be adequate by many people to protect the bus from overload conditions. Because of that the Code has allowed us some room to size the sum of all sources higher than the bus rating (the 120% rule), and perhaps there is a good argument to allow even more room, but I think it would be hard to say that you could feed a 200A loadcenter with two 200A sources (which is how others will view your example) without creating some solid argument for how the bus is protected from overload. Perhaps with smarter panelboards in the future containing other protections such as thermal protection, load control, source control, etc. we would have the substantiation needed to pursue this type of design but until we have those products, standards, and new Code allowances (which probably will come as Microgrids develop) we are most likely stuck with the relatively straightforward requirements found in 705.12. Which I would say have substantially improved in NEC 2014 and 2017. If you are motivated I would suggest you take a stab at writing up some new language that you like and to think through how an argument would be made to support it. We have entered the NEC2020 cycle and public inputs are due in September so you do have a window to get your ideas into the discussions. If you are not aware of it SEIA is helping to coordinate an effort as part of the group we call "the PV Industry Forum" to develop broad consensus proposals for the next edition. If you want to join this effort send an email to NEC2020 at seia.org or let me know. Cheers, Jason Fisher NEC CMP-4 Principal Rep for SEIA On Apr 20, 2017 6:45 AM, "August Goers" wrote: Hi Jason and All – Thanks for the responses. I think it is fair to say that the 200 A of loads plus the 200 A of solar (albeit through a feedthrough lug) equals 400 A as Jason mentions below. I guess my real question is whether limiting the loads to 200 A plus allowing up to 200 A of solar (using my 200 A meter/main example) is a safe setup even if it is not currently NEC compliant. Perhaps future editions of the NEC could be expanded to allow this? Or is there a reason that NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) is written the way it is and we must include the PV too? Cheers, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Fisher (STC) *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2017 6:10 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention Hi August. If the main panel had a 400A rated bus and the sub was 200A then I think you could make a good argument but it appears the main is a 200A bus so therefore the sum of all load and supply breakers on that bus is 400A (loads plus solar excluding the main breaker), which does not comply with the Code language nor intent. The feed through lugs do not create a single bus, you now just have two buses and a feeder conductor to evaluate. Once the solar is connected you there are two sources feeding the main panel bus, not just the utility. You can exclude one but not both when evaluating the main panel bus. Hope I correctly assessed your situation. Jason Fisher On Apr 19, 2017 6:01 PM, "Mark Frye" wrote: True, but, the intent of the Code is not to always allow the interconnection of the maximum amount of PV power possible, so long as an over-current event cannot occur. Here we see Code that prevents over-current events in all cases. I guess you could say that that is it's intent. Sadly, the case you show would not be one of those allowed. Happily, many that would not have been allowed in the past are now allowed. This is called progress. On 4/19/2017 4:31 PM, August Goers wrote: Right, but if we limit the load breakers to the bus rating per NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c), then there will never be an overcurrent event. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:18 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention If your sketch shows that there are 200A of breakers in the sub panel and 200A of breakers in the main, then, no, that would not be the intent. The lug kit makes the two separate bars into a single bar. Mark On 4/19/2017 3:29 PM, August Goers wrote: Hi Wrenches – Now that we’re in the 2014 NEC, we’ve increasingly been using the NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) interconnection method: [image: imap://markf at mail.lmi.net:143/fetch%3EUID%3E.Re-Wrenches%3E12200?header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.png] This is a great way of putting lots of PV on a panel when there are few loads. As long as the total breaker rating (excluding the supply breaker) equals the bus rating or less, we’re good to go. However, we recently ran into a panel that had a lug subfeed kit installed in it. Do you think the intention of the code is to allow something like shown in this sketch? Cheers, August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or g/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or g/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 41287 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 228574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 12:09:53 2017 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 12:09:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable In-Reply-To: <0CD66F08-C789-4C45-BD89-F407C08E3C26@swnl.net> References: <004401d2bfbb$5f9e11b0$1eda3510$@solarwork.com> <005f01d2c013$b0a57230$11f05690$@solarwork.com> <0CD66F08-C789-4C45-BD89-F407C08E3C26@swnl.net> Message-ID: Or you can sleeve it in innerduct. On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 10:41 AM, Tump wrote: > Midnite has this and can sell it to you directly if you wish. > > On Apr 28, 2017, at 7:36 AM, Dana wrote: > > Thanks I will look into this option. This is my first go around with the > rapid shut down & was going with the Midnite manual recommendation. So far > sourcing this has not been easy. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > *208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> dana at solarwork.com > * > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:20 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable > > Dana: > > The garden variety Cat5 we have been using is rated at 300 volts. Unless > your off-grid system is using 600 volt controllers, standard Cat5 should be > code compliant. > > We did source a Belden 600 V Cat5 and used it when we did not really need > to. It was expensive and very hard to terminate. (I damaged an Outback Hub > 10. Expensive mistake). > > 600 volt Cat5 can be had, but I recommend you avoid using it if possible. > > William Miller > > > On Apr 27, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey All’yall. > > I am looking for 185’ of 600 volt CAT 5 cable for my off grid MidNite > Solar rapid shut down system. > I am not looking for the USE version. > > Please contact me off list. > > Thankyou! > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > *208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> dana at solarwork.com > * > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <(207)%20832-7574> Cl. > 610-517-8401 <(610)%20517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 15:07:17 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:07:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention In-Reply-To: References: <8f7c6ca1ef4f6481e2090393913defa7@mail.gmail.com> <8344c7169af106724caf9894ec73be50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches; Because I have to distill this topic into simple working knowledge for my college students being hired for the start of their PV career, I would really appreciate any input on my talking points below, to make sure I am not spreading BS to my students. 1) The NEC 2011 120% rule on load side interconnects prevents overloading a main panel buss from PV providing the potential overcurrent loads not regulated by the panel main breaker, but limits PV input amps thanks to a rounding up error by calculating this rule based on main breakers upsized to the next available OCPD size; 2) The NEC 2014 updates were intended to allow more PV amperage on a load-side main panel interconnect via 3 different options by using inverter FLA instead of main breaker size; so If you just follow NEC 2011 120% rule you won't violate NEC 2014 except in your paperwork; 3) NEC 2014 705.12(B)(2)(3)(a) now allows the PV OCPDs to be located anywhere on the panel, not just the bottom, also a good option for center-fed main panels; 4) NEC 2014 705.12(B)(2)(3)(b) gives you a bit of boost to your main panel rating, again to allow a bit more PV input, but still restricts PV OCPD location to the bottom of the panel; 5) NEC 2014 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) , the sum of all OCPDs, seems more suited for microinverter subpanels that do not have any actual loads. Have I made any errors in these basic talking points for students here? Any input appreciated. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Jason Fisher (STC) wrote: > Ah, I better understand your question now August. You are basically > pointing out that in any loadcenter, if the total sum of all loads can be > limited then why would we limited the sum of all sources that feed that > panelboard? I've certainly heard this questioned before and I understand > where it is coming from. The challenge with this argument is that it really > applies to all types of connections between multiple sources and loads, > including commercial/industrial and residential and any source such as > utility, solar, wind, rotating generators and even storage. In order to > modify any NEC language for the situation you mention, all other types of > interconnections would need to be considered. In general, there must be a > single OCP to prevent conductors or busbars from overload. It is a rare > case in the Code where a bus is allowed to be protected through the use of > multiple smaller OCPs that sum together. Our PV combiner boxes can be one > of those rare cases. The old split-bus service panel would be another. > Within standard AC loadcenters it is a particularly problematic argument > since additional breakers can be added or increased in size very easily. A > simple warning label may not be adequate by many people to protect the bus > from overload conditions. Because of that the Code has allowed us some room > to size the sum of all sources higher than the bus rating (the 120% rule), > and perhaps there is a good argument to allow even more room, but I think > it would be hard to say that you could feed a 200A loadcenter with two 200A > sources (which is how others will view your example) without creating some > solid argument for how the bus is protected from overload. Perhaps with > smarter panelboards in the future containing other protections such as > thermal protection, load control, source control, etc. we would have the > substantiation needed to pursue this type of design but until we have those > products, standards, and new Code allowances (which probably will come as > Microgrids develop) we are most likely stuck with the relatively > straightforward requirements found in 705.12. Which I would say have > substantially improved in NEC 2014 and 2017. > > If you are motivated I would suggest you take a stab at writing up some > new language that you like and to think through how an argument would be > made to support it. We have entered the NEC2020 cycle and public inputs are > due in September so you do have a window to get your ideas into the > discussions. If you are not aware of it SEIA is helping to coordinate an > effort as part of the group we call "the PV Industry Forum" to develop > broad consensus proposals for the next edition. If you want to join this > effort send an email to NEC2020 at seia.org or let me know. > > Cheers, > > Jason Fisher > NEC CMP-4 Principal Rep for SEIA > > > On Apr 20, 2017 6:45 AM, "August Goers" wrote: > > Hi Jason and All – > > > > Thanks for the responses. I think it is fair to say that the 200 A of > loads plus the 200 A of solar (albeit through a feedthrough lug) equals 400 > A as Jason mentions below. > > > > I guess my real question is whether limiting the loads to 200 A plus > allowing up to 200 A of solar (using my 200 A meter/main example) is a safe > setup even if it is not currently NEC compliant. Perhaps future editions of > the NEC could be expanded to allow this? Or is there a reason that NEC > 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) is written the way it is and we must include the PV too? > > > > Cheers, > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Fisher (STC) > *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2017 6:10 AM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention > > > > Hi August. > > > > If the main panel had a 400A rated bus and the sub was 200A then I think > you could make a good argument but it appears the main is a 200A bus so > therefore the sum of all load and supply breakers on that bus is 400A > (loads plus solar excluding the main breaker), which does not comply with > the Code language nor intent. The feed through lugs do not create a single > bus, you now just have two buses and a feeder conductor to evaluate. Once > the solar is connected you there are two sources feeding the main panel > bus, not just the utility. You can exclude one but not both when evaluating > the main panel bus. > > > > Hope I correctly assessed your situation. > > > > Jason Fisher > > > > > > On Apr 19, 2017 6:01 PM, "Mark Frye" wrote: > > True, but, the intent of the Code is not to always allow the > interconnection of the maximum amount of PV power possible, so long as an > over-current event cannot occur. > > Here we see Code that prevents over-current events in all cases. I guess > you could say that that is it's intent. > > Sadly, the case you show would not be one of those allowed. > > Happily, many that would not have been allowed in the past are now allowed. > > This is called progress. > > > > On 4/19/2017 4:31 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Right, but if we limit the load breakers to the bus rating per NEC > 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c), then there will never be an overcurrent event. > > > > August > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Frye > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:18 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) intention > > > > If your sketch shows that there are 200A of breakers in the sub panel and > 200A of breakers in the main, then, no, that would not be the intent. The > lug kit makes the two separate bars into a single bar. > > Mark > > On 4/19/2017 3:29 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches – > > > > Now that we’re in the 2014 NEC, we’ve increasingly been using the NEC > 705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) interconnection method: > > > > [image: > imap://markf at mail.lmi.net:143/fetch%3EUID%3E.Re-Wrenches%3E12200?header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.png] > > > > This is a great way of putting lots of PV on a panel when there are few > loads. As long as the total breaker rating (excluding the supply breaker) > equals the bus rating or less, we’re good to go. However, we recently ran > into a panel that had a lug subfeed kit installed in it. > > > > Do you think the intention of the code is to allow something like shown in > this sketch? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 41287 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 228574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 16:17:28 2017 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 16:17:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable In-Reply-To: <005f01d2c013$b0a57230$11f05690$@solarwork.com> References: <004401d2bfbb$5f9e11b0$1eda3510$@solarwork.com> <005f01d2c013$b0a57230$11f05690$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Turns out I have a 400' roll of the Midnite wire which I do not need (client changed mind, and I cannot get my supplier to take back - very annoying!) and am willing to sell cheap,but you'd probably do better sourcing from Midnite since shipping from VT will probably be prohibitive. Howie *Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Dana wrote: > Thanks I will look into this option. This is my first go around with the > rapid shut down & was going with the Midnite manual recommendation. So far > sourcing this has not been easy. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *208.721.7003 <%28208%29%20721-7003> > dana at solarwork.com * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:20 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable > > > > Dana: > > > > The garden variety Cat5 we have been using is rated at 300 volts. Unless > your off-grid system is using 600 volt controllers, standard Cat5 should be > code compliant. > > > > We did source a Belden 600 V Cat5 and used it when we did not really need > to. It was expensive and very hard to terminate. (I damaged an Outback Hub > 10. Expensive mistake). > > > > 600 volt Cat5 can be had, but I recommend you avoid using it if possible. > > > > William Miller > > > On Apr 27, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey All’yall. > > > > I am looking for 185’ of 600 volt CAT 5 cable for my off grid MidNite > Solar rapid shut down system. > > I am not looking for the USE version. > > > > Please contact me off list. > > > > Thankyou! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *208.721.7003 <%28208%29%20721-7003> > dana at solarwork.com * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Apr 29 07:47:14 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 05:47:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable Message-ID: <002201d2c0de$5907c5c0$0b175140$@solarwork.com> Thanks, All. I have located & ordered the distance I needed. BTW – Midnite only sells to direct dealers that are purchasing in the $100- +/ year range. This is disappointing as the 600-V CAT5 is not a very common cable. Midnite did redirect me to ALT-E and shipping from NY was $77 for the cable, 50% of the cost of the cable itself. I tried 3 wholesalers & they were not even aware of this type of cable till they researched it. All were able to source it only as a 1000’ reel order. AEE had stopped carrying the 600 V CAT5. Sigh……… ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable Midnite has this and can sell it to you directly if you wish. On Apr 28, 2017, at 7:36 AM, Dana > wrote: Thanks I will look into this option. This is my first go around with the rapid shut down & was going with the Midnite manual recommendation. So far sourcing this has not been easy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:20 PM To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing 600 Volt CAT 5 cable Dana: The garden variety Cat5 we have been using is rated at 300 volts. Unless your off-grid system is using 600 volt controllers, standard Cat5 should be code compliant. We did source a Belden 600 V Cat5 and used it when we did not really need to. It was expensive and very hard to terminate. (I damaged an Outback Hub 10. Expensive mistake). 600 volt Cat5 can be had, but I recommend you avoid using it if possible. William Miller On Apr 27, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Dana < dana at solarwork.com> wrote: Hey All’yall. I am looking for 185’ of 600 volt CAT 5 cable for my off grid MidNite Solar rapid shut down system. I am not looking for the USE version. Please contact me off list. Thankyou! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 09:30:01 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 09:30:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7 Message-ID: <002701d2c1b5$defa6980$9cef3c80$@com> Wrenches, We recently swapped in a new internal fan on a OB FX 2524T after the original fan stopped working on the 6 yr old inverter. Now the new internal fan is running all the time. Unrelated to temperature (Air, Fet and Cap temps all good). I've tried removing all loads from the inverter and also resetting the inverter (off/on). OutBack tech support says the control board is the most likely cause of this problem and that I should buy a new board and swap that in. Or, as another option he said I could let the fan continue to run 24/7. Any advice? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 10:27:04 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 07:27:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7 In-Reply-To: <002701d2c1b5$defa6980$9cef3c80$@com> References: <002701d2c1b5$defa6980$9cef3c80$@com> Message-ID: <02488BA2-05AB-48EF-A3A0-A2C697D0347C@gmail.com> Hi Dave, Did you replace the temp sensor? Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 30, 2017, at 6:30 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We recently swapped in a new internal fan on a OB FX 2524T after the original fan stopped working on the 6 yr old inverter. > > Now the new internal fan is running all the time. Unrelated to temperature (Air, Fet and Cap temps all good). I've tried removing all loads from the inverter and also resetting the inverter (off/on). > > OutBack tech support says the control board is the most likely cause of this problem and that I should buy a new board and swap that in. Or, as another option he said I could let the fan continue to run 24/7. > > Any advice? > > Thanks, > Dave > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > 802-888-4917 home > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 11:27:09 2017 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 11:27:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7 In-Reply-To: <02488BA2-05AB-48EF-A3A0-A2C697D0347C@gmail.com> References: <002701d2c1b5$defa6980$9cef3c80$@com> <02488BA2-05AB-48EF-A3A0-A2C697D0347C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201d2c1c6$3c8a2ee0$b59e8ca0$@com> No From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 10:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7 Hi Dave, Did you replace the temp sensor? Jay Peltz power. On Apr 30, 2017, at 6:30 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Wrenches, We recently swapped in a new internal fan on a OB FX 2524T after the original fan stopped working on the 6 yr old inverter. Now the new internal fan is running all the time. Unrelated to temperature (Air, Fet and Cap temps all good). I've tried removing all loads from the inverter and also resetting the inverter (off/on). OutBack tech support says the control board is the most likely cause of this problem and that I should buy a new board and swap that in. Or, as another option he said I could let the fan continue to run 24/7. Any advice? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sun Apr 30 12:23:19 2017 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 09:23:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7 Message-ID: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Apr 30 16:45:17 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 13:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7 In-Reply-To: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email1 4.godaddy.com> References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Often when the fan fails it is caused by the thermistor on the PC board that has failed. That is why Outback wanted you to buy the PCB. The battery temp sensor is probably fine and you can check it reading the temperature of the battery in one of the menus. --Dave >
Did you pull the boards when you replaced the fan > club? could have pinched/ shorted a temp sensor > wire.

db

Dan Brown
Foxfire > Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
href="http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com">www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP > #092907-44


>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7
> From: "Dave Palumbo" < href="mailto:palumbo131m at gmail.com">palumbo131m at gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, April 30, 2017 11:27 am
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" < href="mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
>
style="font-size:12pt;"> style="color:#1F497D">No
style="font-size:12pt;"> style="color:#1F497D"> 
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in > 0in">
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From: style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> > RE-wrenches [ href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of Jay
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 10:27 > AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OutBack > FX Internal Fan running 24/7
class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"> 
class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">Hi > Dave,
style="font-size:12pt;"> 
class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">Did you replace the temp > sensor?
style="font-size:12pt;"> 
class="MsoNormal" > style="font-size:12pt;">Jay
class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">Peltz > power. 
style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt">
On Apr 30, 2017, at 6:30 > AM, Dave Palumbo < href="mailto:palumbo131m at gmail.com">palumbo131m at gmail.com> > wrote:
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
style="font-size:12pt;">Wrenches,
style="font-size:12pt;"> 
style="font-size:12pt;">We recently swapped in a new internal fan on a OB > FX 2524T after the original fan stopped working on the 6 yr old inverter. >
style="font-size:12pt;"> 
style="font-size:12pt;">Now the new internal fan is running all the time. > Unrelated to temperature (Air, Fet and Cap temps all good). I've tried > removing all loads from the inverter and also resetting the inverter > (off/on).
style="font-size:12pt;"> 
style="font-size:12pt;">OutBack tech support says the control board is the > most likely cause of this problem and that I should buy a new board and > swap that in. Or, as another option he said I could let the fan continue > to run 24/7.
style="font-size:12pt;"> 
style="font-size:12pt;">Any advice?
style="font-size:12pt;"> 
style="font-size:12pt;">Thanks,
style="font-size:12pt;">Dave
style="font-size:12pt;"> 
style="font-size:12pt;">David Palumbo
class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">Independent Power > LLC
462 > Solar Way Drive
style="font-size:12pt;">Hyde Park, VT 05655
class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">802-371-8678 > cell
style="font-size:12pt;">802-888-4917 home
class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"> 
class="MsoNormal" > style="font-size:12pt;"> 
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New > Roman","serif"">_______________________________________________
List > sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: href="mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org

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> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From tom at ecs-solar.com Sun Apr 30 15:43:17 2017 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 19:43:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Fan Running will not stop Solution Message-ID: Put a low voltage timer on the fan that is only allows it to be on during the prime Solar hours of solar production and designed hours of heavy draws by the Inverter . Obviously off at night when people are sleeping and times when no one is at home either in the early morning or late afternoon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 17:09:59 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 14:09:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7 In-Reply-To: <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: HI Dave Every one I’ve ever seen is replaceable. The sealed units come with a short 1/2” temp sensor, and the vented units come with a temp sensor mounted to the transformer. But its the same attachment, small 2 pin polarized connector. jay peltz power > On Apr 30, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Often when the fan fails it is caused by the thermistor on the PC board > that has failed. That is why Outback wanted you to buy the PCB. The > battery temp sensor is probably fine and you can check it reading the > temperature of the battery in one of the menus. > --Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon May 1 07:30:12 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 07:30:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Fan Running will not stop Solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170501113027.4887010201@che.dreamhost.com> Ooh, I know, put a small PV module in the window and power the fan from it.. It will blow when irradiance is high, and not at night, lol -----Original Message----- From: "Tom Lane" Sent: ‎4/‎30/‎2017 15:43 To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Fan Running will not stop Solution Put a low voltage timer on the fan that is only allows it to be on during the prime Solar hours of solar production and designed hours of heavy draws by the Inverter . Obviously off at night when people are sleeping and times when no one is at home either in the early morning or late afternoon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 1 11:09:49 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 08:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7 In-Reply-To: References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I was mixed up thinking someone was saying to replace the "battery temp sensor" instead of the inverter/charger heat sensor. > HI Dave > > Every one I’ve ever seen is replaceable. > > The sealed units come with a short 1/2” temp sensor, and the vented > units come with a temp sensor mounted to the transformer. > But its the same attachment, small 2 pin polarized connector. > > jay > peltz power > > >> On Apr 30, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> wrote: >> >> Often when the fan fails it is caused by the thermistor on the PC board >> that has failed. That is why Outback wanted you to buy the PCB. The >> battery temp sensor is probably fine and you can check it reading the >> temperature of the battery in one of the menus. >> --Dave >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From frenergy at psln.com Tue May 2 10:18:14 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 07:18:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC lock-out In-Reply-To: <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Especially CA wrenches, Anybody had any of their GT systems locked-out by their utility with the AC disco? I'm dealing with a utility that still insists in installing an AC disco no matter what the conditions are and in this very rural area this can mean running an extra line out to the meter/main 100+ ft from the house (distribution panel back at the house). So backhoe, labor, materials and Oops the backhoe hit a propane line. Do they actually have a box of hundreds of locks to be able to lock-out PV systems? I doubt it. Would appreciate knowing for a discussion with their engineer. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From atruitt at gmail.com Tue May 2 12:03:02 2017 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 10:03:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC lock-out In-Reply-To: References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Bill - See attached for a Solar ABCs report on the subject from 2008. It concludes with this (UEDS = Utility External Disconnect Switch): [image: Inline image 1] - Andrew "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:18 AM, frenergy wrote: > Especially CA wrenches, > > Anybody had any of their GT systems locked-out by their > utility with the AC disco? I'm dealing with a utility that still insists > in installing an AC disco no matter what the conditions are and in this > very rural area this can mean running an extra line out to the meter/main > 100+ ft from the house (distribution panel back at the house). So backhoe, > labor, materials and Oops the backhoe hit a propane line. Do they actually > have a box of hundreds of locks to be able to lock-out PV systems? I doubt > it. Would appreciate knowing for a discussion with their engineer. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 36188 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ABCS-05_studyreport.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 490368 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: UEDS_1page.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 289518 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 2 12:26:02 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 09:26:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC lock-out In-Reply-To: References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <1D00B00D-004E-4061-AE72-317578E5BC1D@millersolar.com> Bill: PG$E used to require disconnects on residential projects. I once asked a line crew if they even knew which homes had solar and where the disconnects where located. The answer was no. The restriction was lifted long ago. Rather than trench, you could install a whole house disconnect. I doubt it would ever be opened. William > On May 2, 2017, at 7:18 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Especially CA wrenches, > > Anybody had any of their GT systems locked-out by their utility with the AC disco? I'm dealing with a utility that still insists in installing an AC disco no matter what the conditions are and in this very rural area this can mean running an extra line out to the meter/main 100+ ft from the house (distribution panel back at the house). So backhoe, labor, materials and Oops the backhoe hit a propane line. Do they actually have a box of hundreds of locks to be able to lock-out PV systems? I doubt it. Would appreciate knowing for a discussion with their engineer. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jj at aprsworld.com Tue May 2 12:46:17 2017 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 11:46:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC lock-out In-Reply-To: <1D00B00D-004E-4061-AE72-317578E5BC1D@millersolar.com> References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <1D00B00D-004E-4061-AE72-317578E5BC1D@millersolar.com> Message-ID: > Rather than trench, you could install a whole house disconnect. I doubt it would ever be opened. Here in my part of Minnesota the utilities won't allow you to do a whole premise disconnect. The lockable solar disconnect must serve the solar only and must be located within 6' of the meter. So I've had a few occasions where the customer has had to spend thousands of extra dollars to meet that requirement. It's a pretty crazy (read: anti-renewables) requirement in this day and age. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC > > William > >> On May 2, 2017, at 7:18 AM, frenergy wrote: >> >> Especially CA wrenches, >> >> Anybody had any of their GT systems locked-out by their utility with the AC disco? I'm dealing with a utility that still insists in installing an AC disco no matter what the conditions are and in this very rural area this can mean running an extra line out to the meter/main 100+ ft from the house (distribution panel back at the house). So backhoe, labor, materials and Oops the backhoe hit a propane line. Do they actually have a box of hundreds of locks to be able to lock-out PV systems? I doubt it. Would appreciate knowing for a discussion with their engineer. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue May 2 12:50:44 2017 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 10:50:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC lock-out In-Reply-To: References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <1D00B00D-004E-4061-AE72-317578E5BC1D@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Here in CO, a lot of rural utilities have this requirement. Its very unnecessary as we all know. I would shoot for a directional placarding solution. Indicate where the main service is from the solar disconnect and where the solar disconnect is from the main. Worth a try, it always works here. On May 2, 2017 10:46 AM, "James Jefferson Jarvis" wrote: > Rather than trench, you could install a whole house disconnect. I doubt it >> would ever be opened. >> > > Here in my part of Minnesota the utilities won't allow you to do a whole > premise disconnect. The lockable solar disconnect must serve the solar only > and must be located within 6' of the meter. > > So I've had a few occasions where the customer has had to spend thousands > of extra dollars to meet that requirement. > > It's a pretty crazy (read: anti-renewables) requirement in this day and > age. > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > > > >> William >> >> On May 2, 2017, at 7:18 AM, frenergy wrote: >>> >>> Especially CA wrenches, >>> >>> Anybody had any of their GT systems locked-out by their >>> utility with the AC disco? I'm dealing with a utility that still insists >>> in installing an AC disco no matter what the conditions are and in this >>> very rural area this can mean running an extra line out to the meter/main >>> 100+ ft from the house (distribution panel back at the house). So backhoe, >>> labor, materials and Oops the backhoe hit a propane line. Do they actually >>> have a box of hundreds of locks to be able to lock-out PV systems? I doubt >>> it. Would appreciate knowing for a discussion with their engineer. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > www.aprsworld.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 2 19:00:09 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 16:00:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC lock-out In-Reply-To: References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <1D00B00D-004E-4061-AE72-317578E5BC1D@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <1C813B09-1A12-4B8A-AAD7-488DFDD548CA@gmail.com> What got the PG&E lockout lifted was no-one knew who had the list, how it was to be implemented/locked or when how to be un locked, or who kept the keys, just to name a few. Its all based on the faulty thinking that its stupid power ( generator ) and not smart power IEEE/UL 1741. You might try if an inverter engineer might talk with the utility engineer. And I’ve actually got one on my house. Its one of the first installs in northern California, and not only is the a lockable disco, its locked ON. jay peltz power > On May 2, 2017, at 9:50 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Here in CO, a lot of rural utilities have this requirement. Its very unnecessary as we all know. I would shoot for a directional placarding solution. Indicate where the main service is from the solar disconnect and where the solar disconnect is from the main. Worth a try, it always works here. > > On May 2, 2017 10:46 AM, "James Jefferson Jarvis" > wrote: > Rather than trench, you could install a whole house disconnect. I doubt it would ever be opened. > > Here in my part of Minnesota the utilities won't allow you to do a whole premise disconnect. The lockable solar disconnect must serve the solar only and must be located within 6' of the meter. > > So I've had a few occasions where the customer has had to spend thousands of extra dollars to meet that requirement. > > It's a pretty crazy (read: anti-renewables) requirement in this day and age. > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > > > > William > > On May 2, 2017, at 7:18 AM, frenergy > wrote: > > Especially CA wrenches, > > Anybody had any of their GT systems locked-out by their utility with the AC disco? I'm dealing with a utility that still insists in installing an AC disco no matter what the conditions are and in this very rural area this can mean running an extra line out to the meter/main 100+ ft from the house (distribution panel back at the house). So backhoe, labor, materials and Oops the backhoe hit a propane line. Do they actually have a box of hundreds of locks to be able to lock-out PV systems? I doubt it. Would appreciate knowing for a discussion with their engineer. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > www.aprsworld.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed May 3 00:16:51 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 21:16:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC lock-out In-Reply-To: <1C813B09-1A12-4B8A-AAD7-488DFDD548CA@gmail.com> References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <1D00B00D-004E-4061-AE72-317578E5BC1D@millersolar.com> <1C813B09-1A12-4B8A-AAD7-488DFDD548CA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12816168-8938-ffc0-039d-18421af0f571@psln.com> I appreciate the input. The whole house disco could be an option. This utility also sends out a letter as soon as I request potential customer interest and their most recent 12 month's power history. The letter states: "When analyzing the potential payback of solar power, assume that the future cost for energy from PSREC will be its wholesale cost of power, currently about $0.05 per kWh, and not the current retail rate of $0.1478 per kWh. This may affect the payback of your investment in a solar system." Gotta love it. Bill On 5/2/2017 4:00 PM, jay wrote: > What got the PG&E lockout lifted was no-one knew who had the list, how > it was to be implemented/locked or when how to be un locked, or who > kept the keys, just to name a few. > > Its all based on the faulty thinking that its stupid power ( generator > ) and not smart power IEEE/UL 1741. > > You might try if an inverter engineer might talk with the utility > engineer. > > > And I’ve actually got one on my house. Its one of the first installs > in northern California, and not only is the a lockable disco, its > locked ON. > > jay > peltz power > > >> On May 2, 2017, at 9:50 AM, Mac Lewis > > wrote: >> >> Here in CO, a lot of rural utilities have this requirement. Its very >> unnecessary as we all know. I would shoot for a directional >> placarding solution. Indicate where the main service is from the >> solar disconnect and where the solar disconnect is from the main. >> Worth a try, it always works here. >> >> On May 2, 2017 10:46 AM, "James Jefferson Jarvis" > > wrote: >> >> Rather than trench, you could install a whole house >> disconnect. I doubt it would ever be opened. >> >> >> Here in my part of Minnesota the utilities won't allow you to do >> a whole premise disconnect. The lockable solar disconnect must >> serve the solar only and must be located within 6' of the meter. >> >> So I've had a few occasions where the customer has had to spend >> thousands of extra dollars to meet that requirement. >> >> It's a pretty crazy (read: anti-renewables) requirement in this >> day and age. >> >> -James Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> >> >> >> William >> >> On May 2, 2017, at 7:18 AM, frenergy > > wrote: >> >> Especially CA wrenches, >> >> Anybody had any of their GT systems locked-out >> by their utility with the AC disco? I'm dealing with a >> utility that still insists in installing an AC disco no >> matter what the conditions are and in this very rural >> area this can mean running an extra line out to the >> meter/main 100+ ft from the house (distribution panel >> back at the house). So backhoe, labor, materials and >> Oops the backhoe hit a propane line. Do they actually >> have a box of hundreds of locks to be able to lock-out PV >> systems? I doubt it. Would appreciate knowing for a >> discussion with their engineer. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast >> antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From truscitti at taitem.com Wed May 3 14:10:57 2017 From: truscitti at taitem.com (Tom Ruscitti) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 14:10:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan running 24/7 Message-ID: We had a similar issue last year on two new systems with FXR3048A inverters. An Outback tech proposed the solution below and .... it mysteriously worked. Not sure if this applies to older FX inverters or only the newer FXRA with latest firmware. • Make sure master is in HUB port 1 and sub-phase master in port 7. If not, various errors can show up including random inverter fan running continuously. - Tom -- Tom Ruscitti Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Mobile: (607) 220-7022 www.taitem.com From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed May 3 14:51:47 2017 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 11:51:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFXR3648 failures Message-ID: <1060B48A-6F92-4C40-AA21-2F1B05A85D83@starlightsolar.com> Battery Wrenches, We designed a mobile power system with 6 Outback VFXR3648 inverters stacked for 240 split phase. The battery system is a 20kWh lithium ion. So far, 2 FET boards have failed and the customer called today with another failure. Outback said they had an early problem with these. I want to know if anyone else is having issues with these and is the problem really fixed before I quote another one. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed May 3 15:06:05 2017 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 19:06:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking ID Message-ID: Can anyone ID this racking system? see pics. Ive been asked to provide a R&R bid for a re roof. Any inherent problems like seized hardware or anything else to be aware of? Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. CO, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2248.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 492421 bytes Desc: IMG_2248.JPG URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2298.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 693318 bytes Desc: IMG_2298.JPG URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed May 3 15:55:28 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:55:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFXR3648 failures In-Reply-To: <1060B48A-6F92-4C40-AA21-2F1B05A85D83@starlightsolar.com> References: <1060B48A-6F92-4C40-AA21-2F1B05A85D83@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <0c72429f-c334-bd7d-8537-e2153991dcae@solarray.com> I had all kinds of trouble with the one and only VFXR system I did last summer. Every morning when the system would try to sell back, one inverter would drop, which meant half the critical loads all got dropped too. Considering the idea behind all the money for GTB is to keep those loads up no matter what, we as an industry looked very bad. A firmware update a couple months later finally fixed the problem, but in the mean time I had Outback Tech support trying to blame my wiring for the problems. I had so many call backs due to this, along with Midnite "Rapid Shutdown" issues, that I'm very hesitant to even take on anymore backup power systems. I actually talk most people out of it right now. If you already have 99+% power availability, its going to be hard to improve that. More likely, as in our case, we are decreasing the up time not improving it, and the customer is paying tens of thousands for that down grade. I'm just too honest to promote GTB right now, especially with Tesla's disinformation campaign that makes people think they can backup their entire house for any outage for $5k. I was doing backup systems before we were even allowed to grid tie in the 90s, so I consider our current state of the art to be in total disarray: shameful over promotion coupled with dangerous under performance. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 5/3/17 12:51 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Battery Wrenches, > > We designed a mobile power system with 6 Outback VFXR3648 inverters > stacked for 240 split phase. The battery system is a 20kWh lithium > ion. So far, 2 FET boards have failed and the customer called today > with another failure. Outback said they had an early problem with > these. I want to know if anyone else is having issues with these and > is the problem really fixed before I quote another one. > > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > (928) 342-9103 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wapalco at rockisland.com Wed May 3 18:17:43 2017 From: wapalco at rockisland.com (Jason Lerner) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 15:17:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging Message-ID: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> Hello All, I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on AC1 and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates during an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from AC 2 - generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every single time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I would rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t seem to change the situation. Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? Thanks very much, Jason Lerner Waldron Power and Light Co. (888) 927-2526 From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 3 19:20:54 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 16:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> Message-ID: Hmm. This does not sound good! Three phase power correct? You could try connecting a different inverter to the generator. Are you sure the generator is staying connected and outputting qualifying AC? There are set-points for bulk and absorb and they are the same right? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hello All, > > I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on AC1 > and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates during > an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from AC 2 - > generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every single > time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it > accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption > setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I would > rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. > > I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried > charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t > seem to change the situation. > > Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? > > Thanks very much, > > Jason Lerner > Waldron Power and Light Co. > (888) 927-2526 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 3 19:37:06 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 16:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Bridge for Li-ion Message-ID: Schneider Electric Solar released the brochure in the attachment below. They do not have a web page yet as they are getting the approvals. It should not be long. One will be able to go to the site and get firmware for the battery BMS. I have been testing it since last year with the LG Chem RESU-10. This is not scheduled until sometime in the 2nd half of 2017. The other very impressive release later this year is the Outback Skybox. It is an all in one dual HV mppts,5KW, and does not need a battery to work. It can be added later. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: saturday bridge.PNG Type: image/png Size: 45097 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bruce.g at ruralinzone.net Wed May 3 22:33:23 2017 From: bruce.g at ruralinzone.net (Bruce Geddes) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 14:33:23 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFXR3648 failures In-Reply-To: <0c72429f-c334-bd7d-8537-e2153991dcae@solarray.com> References: <1060B48A-6F92-4C40-AA21-2F1B05A85D83@starlightsolar.com> <0c72429f-c334-bd7d-8537-e2153991dcae@solarray.com> Message-ID: <003f01d2c47e$d30b1d10$79215730$@ruralinzone.net> Hi All, Although using a different version of the VFXR (3024E) I have also had issues with a factory supplied FP2 system which is now resolved. Random shutdowns of the slave inverter which would indicate "firmware versions different" and eventually lock up and revert to Boot Load mode. Required a firmware upload direct from the Mate to the inverter, would not work via Hub! I was told it was a firmware issue but later, from a different tech support, that it was a comms board issue which has now been resolved with a complete redesign of the board in question. Total of 5x 6hour round trips to sort out! My problem was fixed by retrofitting some VFX3024E's, fortunately an off-grid system so no need for the grid capability. Cheers, Bruce Geddes PowerOn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, 4 May 2017 7:55 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFXR3648 failures I had all kinds of trouble with the one and only VFXR system I did last summer. Every morning when the system would try to sell back, one inverter would drop, which meant half the critical loads all got dropped too. Considering the idea behind all the money for GTB is to keep those loads up no matter what, we as an industry looked very bad. A firmware update a couple months later finally fixed the problem, but in the mean time I had Outback Tech support trying to blame my wiring for the problems. I had so many call backs due to this, along with Midnite "Rapid Shutdown" issues, that I'm very hesitant to even take on anymore backup power systems. I actually talk most people out of it right now. If you already have 99+% power availability, its going to be hard to improve that. More likely, as in our case, we are decreasing the up time not improving it, and the customer is paying tens of thousands for that down grade. I'm just too honest to promote GTB right now, especially with Tesla's disinformation campaign that makes people think they can backup their entire house for any outage for $5k. I was doing backup systems before we were even allowed to grid tie in the 90s, so I consider our current state of the art to be in total disarray: shameful over promotion coupled with dangerous under performance. R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 5/3/17 12:51 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Battery Wrenches, We designed a mobile power system with 6 Outback VFXR3648 inverters stacked for 240 split phase. The battery system is a 20kWh lithium ion. So far, 2 FET boards have failed and the customer called today with another failure. Outback said they had an early problem with these. I want to know if anyone else is having issues with these and is the problem really fixed before I quote another one. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Description: Image removed by sender. Virus-free. www.avg.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu May 4 06:35:44 2017 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 06:35:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> Message-ID: Jason, I had a similar problem with an XW 6048 but the overcharge happened on AC1 input. One xantrex tech told me the battery bank was too small. I had 8 L16's 6 v 360 ah. I reset to factory defaults and asked them many times why the voltage raced up to 64v when set at correct absorption voltage. After a year, a blown battery and finally a full replacement of the battery bank (now maximum storage) and a full day going thru every set point after setting to factory defaults, I found the default setting for absorption was for 6 hours! After setting that to zero, things settled down and I could actually tweak the max current settings to stabilize the system. Even with the new batteries it was still a very touchy adjustment to keep everything under control. My takeaway, stick with Outback. Sent from my iPhone > On May 3, 2017, at 7:20 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hmm. This does not sound good! Three phase power correct? You could try > connecting a different inverter to the generator. > Are you sure the generator is staying connected and outputting qualifying AC? > There are set-points for bulk and absorb and they are the same right? > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > >> Hello All, >> >> I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on AC1 >> and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates during >> an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from AC 2 - >> generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every single >> time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it >> accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption >> setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I would >> rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. >> >> I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried >> charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t >> seem to change the situation. >> >> Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? >> >> Thanks very much, >> >> Jason Lerner >> Waldron Power and Light Co. >> (888) 927-2526 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From tump at swnl.net Thu May 4 07:39:07 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 07:39:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> Message-ID: <82D97342-E2CA-49F5-A589-B5A1BAFE4FAA@swnl.net> As with anything these days I would make damn sure that the firmware OF ALL components in the system have been updated w/ the latest firmware prior to changing anything. I personally am not a big fan of the com box and I have the “Con fig” tool and I find after the learning curve its the best method of addressing info & updating. Mis matched firmware seems to be the # 1 issue w/ all the manufactures today. Tump > On May 3, 2017, at 6:17 PM, Jason Lerner wrote: > > Hello All, > > I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on AC1 and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates during an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from AC 2 - generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every single time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I would rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. > > I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t seem to change the situation. > > Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? > > Thanks very much, > > Jason Lerner > Waldron Power and Light Co. > (888) 927-2526 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 4 10:03:46 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 07:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: <82D97342-E2CA-49F5-A589-B5A1BAFE4FAA@swnl.net> References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> <82D97342-E2CA-49F5-A589-B5A1BAFE4FAA@swnl.net> Message-ID: <69329ecc68e3b9135d7678643a1496ac.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I would add that after loading firmware on Outback or Schneider there sometimes have been cases where it showed the new firmware but it was still running the old. The solution was to choose original factory default firmware. After that the unit would load the latest firmware that you had previously installed. Now that is maddening. There are so many XW's and Outbacks out there that I am surprised at how well they run. I am not a big fan of loading new firmware unless you have to.Most of this gear is fine with what it had offgrid. Leave it alone unless you know exactly why you are changing. The firmware has release notes and you should read them. The combox has recent firmware that stopped the "bricking " issue it had. I would do that one for sure! I like the config tool also along with combox. > As with anything these days I would make damn sure that the firmware OF > ALL components in the system have been updated w/ the latest firmware > prior to changing anything. I personally am not a big fan of the com box > and I have the “Con fig” tool and I find after the learning curve its > the best method of addressing info & updating. Mis matched firmware seems > to be the # 1 issue w/ all the manufactures today. Tump >> On May 3, 2017, at 6:17 PM, Jason Lerner wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on >> AC1 and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates >> during an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from >> AC 2 - generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every >> single time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it >> accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption >> setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I >> would rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. >> >> I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried >> charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t >> seem to change the situation. >> >> Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? >> >> Thanks very much, >> >> Jason Lerner >> Waldron Power and Light Co. >> (888) 927-2526 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> Tump at swnl.net >> >> www.SWNL.net >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 4 10:22:05 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 07:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Bridge for Li-ion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22872fc65c7319fe4c14d83833310d96.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Adding correct file....--Dave > Schneider Electric Solar released the brochure in the attachment below. > They do not have a web page yet as they are getting the approvals. It > should not be long. One will be able to go to the site and get firmware > for the battery BMS. I have been testing it since last year with the LG > Chem RESU-10. This is not scheduled until sometime in the 2nd half of > 2017. > > The other very impressive release later this year is the Outback Skybox. > It is an all in one dual HV mppts,5KW, and does not need a battery to > work. It can be added later. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Conext Bridge.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 392725 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed May 3 23:59:29 2017 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 20:59:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC lock-out In-Reply-To: <12816168-8938-ffc0-039d-18421af0f571@psln.com> References: <20170430092319.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7f5d2053df.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <0269a8da403b285e8808949982e25b3c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <4c1b0b6b686d1a8197264dfb6dc80698.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <1D00B00D-004E-4061-AE72-317578E5BC1D@millersolar.com> <1C813B09-1A12-4B8A-AAD7-488DFDD548CA@gmail.com> <12816168-8938-ffc0-039d-18421af0f571@psln.com> Message-ID: <022e01d2c48a$d683f9b0$838bed10$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Bill, I have forwarded this NREL report on the Rationale of the AC Lockable Disco to all the utility companies in our area. It was back when this came out, and every one of their engineering departments refused to acknowledge its validity or adapt it. It is worth re-addressing. Good luck! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 9:17 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC lock-out I appreciate the input. The whole house disco could be an option. This utility also sends out a letter as soon as I request potential customer interest and their most recent 12 month's power history. The letter states: "When analyzing the potential payback of solar power, assume that the future cost for energy from PSREC will be its wholesale cost of power, currently about $0.05 per kWh, and not the current retail rate of $0.1478 per kWh. This may affect the payback of your investment in a solar system." Gotta love it. Bill On 5/2/2017 4:00 PM, jay wrote: What got the PG&E lockout lifted was no-one knew who had the list, how it was to be implemented/locked or when how to be un locked, or who kept the keys, just to name a few. Its all based on the faulty thinking that its stupid power ( generator ) and not smart power IEEE/UL 1741. You might try if an inverter engineer might talk with the utility engineer. And I've actually got one on my house. Its one of the first installs in northern California, and not only is the a lockable disco, its locked ON. jay peltz power On May 2, 2017, at 9:50 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Here in CO, a lot of rural utilities have this requirement. Its very unnecessary as we all know. I would shoot for a directional placarding solution. Indicate where the main service is from the solar disconnect and where the solar disconnect is from the main. Worth a try, it always works here. On May 2, 2017 10:46 AM, "James Jefferson Jarvis" wrote: Rather than trench, you could install a whole house disconnect. I doubt it would ever be opened. Here in my part of Minnesota the utilities won't allow you to do a whole premise disconnect. The lockable solar disconnect must serve the solar only and must be located within 6' of the meter. So I've had a few occasions where the customer has had to spend thousands of extra dollars to meet that requirement. It's a pretty crazy (read: anti-renewables) requirement in this day and age. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC William On May 2, 2017, at 7:18 AM, frenergy wrote: Especially CA wrenches, Anybody had any of their GT systems locked-out by their utility with the AC disco? I'm dealing with a utility that still insists in installing an AC disco no matter what the conditions are and in this very rural area this can mean running an extra line out to the meter/main 100+ ft from the house (distribution panel back at the house). So backhoe, labor, materials and Oops the backhoe hit a propane line. Do they actually have a box of hundreds of locks to be able to lock-out PV systems? I doubt it. Would appreciate knowing for a discussion with their engineer. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NREL Tech Report 42675 Jan 2008.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 576484 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu May 4 11:39:17 2017 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 11:39:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 Cell Black Frame Modules? In-Reply-To: <22872fc65c7319fe4c14d83833310d96.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <22872fc65c7319fe4c14d83833310d96.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <01073e7f-c5c6-16df-1727-cb0f99ff8823@entech-engineering.com> I have been unable to find a ~340 watt all black module for a project in which we will also be using all black 285 watt modules. An architect is involved and for good reason would like the frames to be consistent. Does anyone know of a manufacturer of all black ~340 modules? Please contact me off line if you can assist. Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 From wapalco at rockisland.com Thu May 4 12:01:09 2017 From: wapalco at rockisland.com (Jason Lerner) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 09:01:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: <69329ecc68e3b9135d7678643a1496ac.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> <82D97342-E2CA-49F5-A589-B5A1BAFE4FAA@swnl.net> <69329ecc68e3b9135d7678643a1496ac.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <60FD3C53-7CD5-40E1-9B1B-0042CC80FFC7@rockisland.com> This system was 9 years old and I was called in to put in a new battery bank. We added a Combox, but did not update the firmware on the XW’s since there had only been one update, it did not add any functionality that the customer needed, and I didn’t want to introduce any new problems (exactly like you and others have mentioned) with a new firmware update. The Combox had the most recent Firmware, is there a possibility it doesn’t play nice with the older firmware of the inverters?? Thanks very much, Jason > On May 4, 2017, at 7:03 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I would add that after loading firmware on Outback or Schneider there > sometimes have been cases where it showed the new firmware but it was > still running the old. > The solution was to choose original factory default firmware. After that > the unit would load the latest firmware that you had previously installed. > Now that is maddening. There are so many XW's and Outbacks out there that > I am surprised at how well they run. I am not a big fan of loading new > firmware unless you have to.Most of this gear is fine with what it had > offgrid. Leave it alone unless you know exactly why you are changing. The > firmware has release notes and you should read them. The combox has recent > firmware that stopped the "bricking " issue it had. I would do that one > for sure! I like the config tool also along with combox. > > >> As with anything these days I would make damn sure that the firmware OF >> ALL components in the system have been updated w/ the latest firmware >> prior to changing anything. I personally am not a big fan of the com box >> and I have the “Con fig” tool and I find after the learning curve its >> the best method of addressing info & updating. Mis matched firmware seems >> to be the # 1 issue w/ all the manufactures today. Tump >>> On May 3, 2017, at 6:17 PM, Jason Lerner wrote: >>> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on >>> AC1 and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates >>> during an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from >>> AC 2 - generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every >>> single time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it >>> accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption >>> setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I >>> would rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. >>> >>> I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried >>> charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t >>> seem to change the situation. >>> >>> Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? >>> >>> Thanks very much, >>> >>> Jason Lerner >>> Waldron Power and Light Co. >>> (888) 927-2526 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> Tump at swnl.net >>> >>> www.SWNL.net >>> >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From wapalco at rockisland.com Thu May 4 12:09:44 2017 From: wapalco at rockisland.com (Jason Lerner) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 09:09:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> Message-ID: Hi there, I mostly install Outback and this is one of the few XW systems I have worked on, and all of them have had similar problems. That is the maddening thing, that I also have been through every set point multiple times, everything is dialed in, and saved, and still I worry that replacement of the brand new battery pack will be on me. Hard to imagine we are the only ones out there who have experienced it. Thanks for your advice. Jason > On May 4, 2017, at 3:35 AM, John wrote: > > Jason, > I had a similar problem with an XW 6048 but the overcharge happened on AC1 input. One xantrex tech told me the battery bank was too small. I had 8 L16's 6 v 360 ah. I reset to factory defaults and asked them many times why the voltage raced up to 64v when set at correct absorption voltage. After a year, a blown battery and finally a full replacement of the battery bank (now maximum storage) and a full day going thru every set point after setting to factory defaults, I found the default setting for absorption was for 6 hours! After setting that to zero, things settled down and I could actually tweak the max current settings to stabilize the system. Even with the new batteries it was still a very touchy adjustment to keep everything under control. My takeaway, stick with Outback. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 3, 2017, at 7:20 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> Hmm. This does not sound good! Three phase power correct? You could try >> connecting a different inverter to the generator. >> Are you sure the generator is staying connected and outputting qualifying AC? >> There are set-points for bulk and absorb and they are the same right? >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on AC1 >>> and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates during >>> an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from AC 2 - >>> generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every single >>> time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it >>> accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption >>> setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I would >>> rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. >>> >>> I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried >>> charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t >>> seem to change the situation. >>> >>> Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? >>> >>> Thanks very much, >>> >>> Jason Lerner >>> Waldron Power and Light Co. >>> (888) 927-2526 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu May 4 12:42:23 2017 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 16:42:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> Message-ID: <6bb6dccd9ba74ccb981997719c91078d@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> This is a good one. What battery capacity have you programmed into the XW system? We have had a few issues, though not this one specifically, but similar head-scratchers that were resolved by setting the battery capacity to 0 Ah. Have you tried swapping AC1 and AC2 and does the problem follow the source or the input? I recently had an odd issue with generator automation on AC1 on an XW+ and Schneider tech support was helpful in replicating the issue in their lab and issuing a fix. Might be worth engaging them if you haven't already. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lerner Sent: May-03-17 3:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging Hello All, I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on AC1 and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates during an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from AC 2 - generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every single time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I would rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t seem to change the situation. Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? Thanks very much, Jason Lerner Waldron Power and Light Co. (888) 927-2526 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From wapalco at rockisland.com Thu May 4 13:01:51 2017 From: wapalco at rockisland.com (Jason Lerner) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 10:01:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: <6bb6dccd9ba74ccb981997719c91078d@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> <6bb6dccd9ba74ccb981997719c91078d@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <9C6D627F-C887-47CB-B1A4-9D0306828D4F@rockisland.com> Hello Kevin, I have actual battery capacity of 670 ah’s programmed in. Do you have any theories on why 0 ah’s was helpful?? Swapping AC1 and AC2 is a really good idea. The only problem is since I put in a micro SD card to the Combox, to do extended logging, I have not been able to reproduce the problem that was easy to reproduce a month ago. Only thing that has changed is the weather has warmed up. Schneider tech support has been helpful with suggestions, but they will not pay to replace the battery bank….. Jason > On May 4, 2017, at 9:42 AM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > This is a good one. What battery capacity have you programmed into the XW system? We have had a few issues, though not this one specifically, but similar head-scratchers that were resolved by setting the battery capacity to 0 Ah. > > Have you tried swapping AC1 and AC2 and does the problem follow the source or the input? > > I recently had an odd issue with generator automation on AC1 on an XW+ and Schneider tech support was helpful in replicating the issue in their lab and issuing a fix. Might be worth engaging them if you haven't already. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lerner > Sent: May-03-17 3:18 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging > > Hello All, > > I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on AC1 and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates during an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from AC 2 - generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every single time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I would rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. > > I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t seem to change the situation. > > Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? > > Thanks very much, > > Jason Lerner > Waldron Power and Light Co. > (888) 927-2526 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From wapalco at rockisland.com Thu May 4 13:21:46 2017 From: wapalco at rockisland.com (Jason Lerner) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 10:21:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> Message-ID: Hello Dave, No it is not three phase, but yes Bulk and Absorb are the same set points. Generator is staying connected and is qualified mostly, but will disconnect briefly under load surges…. Weird huh? Thanks Jason > On May 3, 2017, at 4:20 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hmm. This does not sound good! Three phase power correct? You could try > connecting a different inverter to the generator. > Are you sure the generator is staying connected and outputting qualifying AC? > There are set-points for bulk and absorb and they are the same right? > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > >> Hello All, >> >> I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on AC1 >> and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates during >> an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from AC 2 - >> generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every single >> time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it >> accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption >> setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I would >> rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. >> >> I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried >> charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t >> seem to change the situation. >> >> Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? >> >> Thanks very much, >> >> Jason Lerner >> Waldron Power and Light Co. >> (888) 927-2526 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 4 16:57:42 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 13:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: <9C6D627F-C887-47CB-B1A4-9D0306828D4F@rockisland.com> References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> <6bb6dccd9ba74ccb981997719c91078d@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <9C6D627F-C887-47CB-B1A4-9D0306828D4F@rockisland.com> Message-ID: <82a2722f6bc0ba4192cffa2f12456c4f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> On Schneider gear if you program the bat capacity to zero, the unit will run the full absorb time. If you had a 1000 AH bank programmed, at 2% of the 1000 ah or 20 amps into the battery the unit will go to float. I do not see this as your problem though! --Dave > Hello Kevin, > > I have actual battery capacity of 670 ah’s programmed in. Do you have > any theories on why 0 ah’s was helpful?? > > Swapping AC1 and AC2 is a really good idea. The only problem is since I > put in a micro SD card to the Combox, to do extended logging, I have not > been able to reproduce the problem that was easy to reproduce a month ago. > Only thing that has changed is the weather has warmed up. > > Schneider tech support has been helpful with suggestions, but they will > not pay to replace the battery bank….. > > Jason > >> On May 4, 2017, at 9:42 AM, Kevin Pegg >> wrote: >> >> This is a good one. What battery capacity have you programmed into the >> XW system? We have had a few issues, though not this one specifically, >> but similar head-scratchers that were resolved by setting the battery >> capacity to 0 Ah. >> >> Have you tried swapping AC1 and AC2 and does the problem follow the >> source or the input? >> >> I recently had an odd issue with generator automation on AC1 on an XW+ >> and Schneider tech support was helpful in replicating the issue in their >> lab and issuing a fix. Might be worth engaging them if you haven't >> already. >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Jason Lerner >> Sent: May-03-17 3:18 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging >> >> Hello All, >> >> I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on >> AC1 and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates >> during an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from >> AC 2 - generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every >> single time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it >> accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption >> setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I >> would rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. >> >> I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried >> charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t >> seem to change the situation. >> >> Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? >> >> Thanks very much, >> >> Jason Lerner >> Waldron Power and Light Co. >> (888) 927-2526 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From tump at swnl.net Thu May 4 18:05:05 2017 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 18:05:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: <82a2722f6bc0ba4192cffa2f12456c4f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> <6bb6dccd9ba74ccb981997719c91078d@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <9C6D627F-C887-47CB-B1A4-9D0306828D4F@rockisland.com> <82a2722f6bc0ba4192cffa2f12456c4f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <028772DB-9E80-4996-883D-FBB0B9316570@swnl.net> Its a pretty small battery bank what do you have the charge rate set to 10%?100%? how large is your generator? I will usually start with a lower set point, w 3 inverters charging at even 15% thats quite a bit of charging for that BB. Make sure your AC input priority is set for AC2 and the Max current is what your get can reasonably can handle. but if you are seeing brief disconnects then these settings should be checked. Is there a load unknown to you after the genre connects say additional loads on the generator feeding somewhere else? I would not swap the AC1 as the settings while are adjustable, there are some differences in AC1 & AC2. T > On May 4, 2017, at 4:57 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > On Schneider gear if you program the bat capacity to zero, the unit will > run the full absorb time. If you had a 1000 AH bank programmed, at 2% of > the 1000 ah or 20 amps into the battery the unit will go to float. I do > not see this as your problem though! > --Dave > >> Hello Kevin, >> >> I have actual battery capacity of 670 ah’s programmed in. Do you have >> any theories on why 0 ah’s was helpful?? >> >> Swapping AC1 and AC2 is a really good idea. The only problem is since I >> put in a micro SD card to the Combox, to do extended logging, I have not >> been able to reproduce the problem that was easy to reproduce a month ago. >> Only thing that has changed is the weather has warmed up. >> >> Schneider tech support has been helpful with suggestions, but they will >> not pay to replace the battery bank….. >> >> Jason >> >>> On May 4, 2017, at 9:42 AM, Kevin Pegg >>> wrote: >>> >>> This is a good one. What battery capacity have you programmed into the >>> XW system? We have had a few issues, though not this one specifically, >>> but similar head-scratchers that were resolved by setting the battery >>> capacity to 0 Ah. >>> >>> Have you tried swapping AC1 and AC2 and does the problem follow the >>> source or the input? >>> >>> I recently had an odd issue with generator automation on AC1 on an XW+ >>> and Schneider tech support was helpful in replicating the issue in their >>> lab and issuing a fix. Might be worth engaging them if you haven't >>> already. >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >>> Behalf Of Jason Lerner >>> Sent: May-03-17 3:18 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging >>> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on >>> AC1 and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates >>> during an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from >>> AC 2 - generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every >>> single time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it >>> accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption >>> setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I >>> would rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. >>> >>> I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried >>> charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t >>> seem to change the situation. >>> >>> Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? >>> >>> Thanks very much, >>> >>> Jason Lerner >>> Waldron Power and Light Co. >>> (888) 927-2526 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wapalco at rockisland.com Thu May 4 19:41:01 2017 From: wapalco at rockisland.com (Jason Lerner) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 16:41:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging In-Reply-To: <028772DB-9E80-4996-883D-FBB0B9316570@swnl.net> References: <41B81C88-B25E-4862-BC1A-144ABE3C5A82@rockisland.com> <6bb6dccd9ba74ccb981997719c91078d@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <9C6D627F-C887-47CB-B1A4-9D0306828D4F@rockisland.com> <82a2722f6bc0ba4192cffa2f12456c4f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <028772DB-9E80-4996-883D-FBB0B9316570@swnl.net> Message-ID: <88F13786-7331-4FA4-B33B-2E28138E2ED5@rockisland.com> Hi Tump, The battery charge rate is set to limit the overall charge of the batteries to less than .02C (20% overall AH’s) and while the AC1 is set to 60 amps Max input the AC2 is set to 12 Amps max per inverter. I’m not so much concerned with the 18 kw generator disconnecting, that can be dealt with, but the battery charger not regulating during the absorption cycle is really what worries me. Thanks much, Jason > On May 4, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Tump wrote: > > Its a pretty small battery bank what do you have the charge rate set to 10%?100%? how large is your generator? I will usually start with a lower set point, w 3 inverters charging at even 15% thats quite a bit of charging for that BB. Make sure your AC input priority is set for AC2 and the Max current is what your get can reasonably can handle. but if you are seeing brief disconnects then these settings should be checked. Is there a load unknown to you after the genre connects say additional loads on the generator feeding somewhere else? > I would not swap the AC1 as the settings while are adjustable, there are some differences in AC1 & AC2. > T >> On May 4, 2017, at 4:57 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: >> >> On Schneider gear if you program the bat capacity to zero, the unit will >> run the full absorb time. If you had a 1000 AH bank programmed, at 2% of >> the 1000 ah or 20 amps into the battery the unit will go to float. I do >> not see this as your problem though! >> --Dave >> >>> Hello Kevin, >>> >>> I have actual battery capacity of 670 ah’s programmed in. Do you have >>> any theories on why 0 ah’s was helpful?? >>> >>> Swapping AC1 and AC2 is a really good idea. The only problem is since I >>> put in a micro SD card to the Combox, to do extended logging, I have not >>> been able to reproduce the problem that was easy to reproduce a month ago. >>> Only thing that has changed is the weather has warmed up. >>> >>> Schneider tech support has been helpful with suggestions, but they will >>> not pay to replace the battery bank….. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>>> On May 4, 2017, at 9:42 AM, Kevin Pegg > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> This is a good one. What battery capacity have you programmed into the >>>> XW system? We have had a few issues, though not this one specifically, >>>> but similar head-scratchers that were resolved by setting the battery >>>> capacity to 0 Ah. >>>> >>>> Have you tried swapping AC1 and AC2 and does the problem follow the >>>> source or the input? >>>> >>>> I recently had an odd issue with generator automation on AC1 on an XW+ >>>> and Schneider tech support was helpful in replicating the issue in their >>>> lab and issuing a fix. Might be worth engaging them if you haven't >>>> already. >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On >>>> Behalf Of Jason Lerner >>>> Sent: May-03-17 3:18 PM >>>> To: RE-wrenches > >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW 6048A unregulated during charging >>>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> I’m working on a system with 3 Xantrex XW 6048’s that has grid on >>>> AC1 and a 20 kw generator on AC2. When charging from grid it regulates >>>> during an absorption charge at 58.2 where it should. When charging from >>>> AC 2 - generator, the battery Voltage rises above 62 VDC, but not every >>>> single time. All the settings are correct, EQ is turned off, and if it >>>> accidentally got turned on is set at the same Voltage as the absorption >>>> setting. Customer has a brand new 33 kWh AGM battery bank, that I >>>> would rather not fry. This is a battery backup system with no PV. >>>> >>>> I have checked all the temperature sensors (they seem good) and tried >>>> charging with them plugged in, and with them unplugged and it doesn’t >>>> seem to change the situation. >>>> >>>> Has anybody else seen this happen before? Any suggestions? >>>> >>>> Thanks very much, >>>> >>>> Jason Lerner >>>> Waldron Power and Light Co. >>>> (888) 927-2526 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 5 13:39:27 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 10:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Bridge for Li-ion In-Reply-To: <22872fc65c7319fe4c14d83833310d96.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <22872fc65c7319fe4c14d83833310d96.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Does the file I loaded show up for anyone? --Dave > Adding correct file....--Dave > >> Schneider Electric Solar released the brochure in the attachment below. >> They do not have a web page yet as they are getting the approvals. It >> should not be long. One will be able to go to the site and get firmware >> for the battery BMS. I have been testing it since last year with the LG >> Chem RESU-10. This is not scheduled until sometime in the 2nd half of >> 2017. >> >> The other very impressive release later this year is the Outback Skybox. >> It is an all in one dual HV mppts,5KW, and does not need a battery to >> work. It can be added later. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri May 5 14:17:19 2017 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 13:17:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? Message-ID: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> I can't imagine I'm the only one having this problem. Starting to suspect from Fronius that the problem is deeper than they let on. 240 faults are arc-fault detection for Fronius. We have checked every variable on our end - connectors, firmware, clean wire pulls. My teams are not perfect but I l know they are very good and know how important the clean installs are for us. Most but not all of my issues are with bifacial modules. Anybody else have this issue? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 48492 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 5 14:54:36 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 08:54:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? In-Reply-To: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> References: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Howard We have had several a day and there were a few issues, firmware updates solved most of them and the rest had to do with compressors, welders and contactors for large AC units. Check the firmware first. Jerry On May 5, 2017 8:42 AM, "Howard Arey" wrote: > I can’t imagine I’m the only one having this problem. Starting to suspect > from Fronius that the problem is deeper than they let on. > > > > 240 faults are arc-fault detection for Fronius. > > > > We have checked every variable on our end – connectors, firmware, clean > wire pulls. My teams are not perfect but I l know they are very good and > know how important the clean installs are for us. > > > > Most but not all of my issues are with bifacial modules. > > > > Anybody else have this issue? > > > > *Howard “Scot” Arey* > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > 254-300-1228 <(254)%20300-1228> > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > [image: Solar Centex Logo - No Back] > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 48492 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon May 8 04:44:44 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 04:44:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? In-Reply-To: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> References: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <20170508084518.25F0310154@che.dreamhost.com> Have you performed insulation resistance testing on all of your wiring? -----Original Message----- From: "Howard Arey" Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2017 14:17 To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? I can't imagine I'm the only one having this problem. Starting to suspect from Fronius that the problem is deeper than they let on. 240 faults are arc-fault detection for Fronius. We have checked every variable on our end - connectors, firmware, clean wire pulls. My teams are not perfect but I l know they are very good and know how important the clean installs are for us. Most but not all of my issues are with bifacial modules. Anybody else have this issue? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 8 10:28:32 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 07:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? In-Reply-To: <20170508084518.25F0310154@che.dreamhost.com> References: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> <20170508084518.25F0310154@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: What make of bi-facial are you using? The old Sanyo bi-facial had a few of these that had to back for warranty, but that was 10 years ago. > Have you performed insulation resistance testing on all of your wiring? > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Howard Arey" > Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2017 14:17 > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on > Fronius installs as frequently as me??? > > I can't imagine I'm the only one having this problem. Starting to suspect > from Fronius that the problem is deeper than they let on. > > > > 240 faults are arc-fault detection for Fronius. > > > > We have checked every variable on our end - connectors, firmware, clean > wire > pulls. My teams are not perfect but I l know they are very good and know > how > important the clean installs are for us. > > > > Most but not all of my issues are with bifacial modules. > > > > Anybody else have this issue? > > > > Howard "Scot" Arey > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon May 8 10:14:35 2017 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 09:14:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? In-Reply-To: <20170508084518.25F0310154@che.dreamhost.com> References: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> <20170508084518.25F0310154@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: No – I have not. My strongest suspect in all of this is AC / DC conflict and insulation issues. For those familiar, the DC and AC conductors run in the same space. Not too different than other inverters, I’d say. Fronius provides a conductor insulator sleeve for the AC conductors when the wires cannot be physically separated t othe left and right side (perhaps because of location of the array and where conductors enter the wire space.) WE have decided to now install those no matter what – can’t hurt. Back to the megger testing…All of these are 600V applications and the conductor is rated for that. But the problems mostly (but not exclusively) occur at peak irradiance / middle of the day which leads me to believe the combo of high DC and high AC finally conflicts. Perhaps time to invest in a megger tester. Next step for a professional installer I’d say. Thank you. Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Monday, May 8, 2017 3:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? Have you performed insulation resistance testing on all of your wiring? _____ From: Howard Arey Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2017 14:17 To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? I can’t imagine I’m the only one having this problem. Starting to suspect from Fronius that the problem is deeper than they let on. 240 faults are arc-fault detection for Fronius. We have checked every variable on our end – connectors, firmware, clean wire pulls. My teams are not perfect but I l know they are very good and know how important the clean installs are for us. Most but not all of my issues are with bifacial modules. Anybody else have this issue? Howard “Scot” Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 48535 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon May 8 10:44:36 2017 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 09:44:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? In-Reply-To: References: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> <20170508084518.25F0310154@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Sunpreme GxB-360.. Datasheet attached. 95% of the issues are with these modules. Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Monday, May 8, 2017 9:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? What make of bi-facial are you using? The old Sanyo bi-facial had a few of these that had to back for warranty, but that was 10 years ago. > Have you performed insulation resistance testing on all of your wiring? > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Howard Arey" > Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2017 14:17 > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on > Fronius installs as frequently as me??? > > I can't imagine I'm the only one having this problem. Starting to > suspect from Fronius that the problem is deeper than they let on. > > > > 240 faults are arc-fault detection for Fronius. > > > > We have checked every variable on our end - connectors, firmware, > clean wire pulls. My teams are not perfect but I l know they are very > good and know how important the clean installs are for us. > > > > Most but not all of my issues are with bifacial modules. > > > > Anybody else have this issue? > > > > Howard "Scot" Arey > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sunpreme-Datasheet-GxB-360W-Bifacial-Module-Rev-1-4.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 701686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 8 13:17:50 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 10:17:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? In-Reply-To: References: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> <20170508084518.25F0310154@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: What connectors are they, and are you using same brand when you connect to comber/junction box? I have seen issues with non same connectors. jay peltz power > On May 8, 2017, at 7:44 AM, Howard Arey wrote: > > Sunpreme GxB-360.. Datasheet attached. > > 95% of the issues are with these modules. > > > Howard “Scot” Arey > 254-300-1228 > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Monday, May 8, 2017 9:29 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? > > > What make of bi-facial are you using? The old Sanyo bi-facial had a few of these that had to back for warranty, but that was 10 years ago. > > >> Have you performed insulation resistance testing on all of your wiring? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Howard Arey" >> Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2017 14:17 >> To: "'RE-wrenches'" >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on >> Fronius installs as frequently as me??? >> >> I can't imagine I'm the only one having this problem. Starting to >> suspect from Fronius that the problem is deeper than they let on. >> >> >> >> 240 faults are arc-fault detection for Fronius. >> >> >> >> We have checked every variable on our end - connectors, firmware, >> clean wire pulls. My teams are not perfect but I l know they are very >> good and know how important the clean installs are for us. >> >> >> >> Most but not all of my issues are with bifacial modules. >> >> >> >> Anybody else have this issue? >> >> >> >> Howard "Scot" Arey >> >> Owner, Solar CenTex >> >> 254-300-1228 >> >> scot.arey at solarcentex.com >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon May 8 14:06:17 2017 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 13:06:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? In-Reply-To: References: <34a5a01d2c5cb$d584aa40$808dfec0$@solarcentex.com> <20170508084518.25F0310154@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <2e3ae01d2c825$ca789150$5f69b3f0$@solarcentex.com> Interesting note. We considered this variable even if there is supposed compatibility. We have gone back and replaced the MC4 connectors with Tyco connectors to ensure this is not the source. Can’t really say it has helped so far. I’m leaning toward AC / DC interference at peak irradiance. This snip from the Sunpreme datasheet. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Monday, May 8, 2017 12:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? What connectors are they, and are you using same brand when you connect to comber/junction box? I have seen issues with non same connectors. jay peltz power On May 8, 2017, at 7:44 AM, Howard Arey > wrote: Sunpreme GxB-360.. Datasheet attached. 95% of the issues are with these modules. Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Monday, May 8, 2017 9:29 AM To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? What make of bi-facial are you using? The old Sanyo bi-facial had a few of these that had to back for warranty, but that was 10 years ago. Have you performed insulation resistance testing on all of your wiring? -----Original Message----- From: "Howard Arey" > Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2017 14:17 To: "'RE-wrenches'" > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else getting 240 arc fault codes on Fronius installs as frequently as me??? I can't imagine I'm the only one having this problem. Starting to suspect from Fronius that the problem is deeper than they let on. 240 faults are arc-fault detection for Fronius. We have checked every variable on our end - connectors, firmware, clean wire pulls. My teams are not perfect but I l know they are very good and know how important the clean installs are for us. Most but not all of my issues are with bifacial modules. Anybody else have this issue? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 10383 bytes Desc: not available URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Mon May 8 15:02:09 2017 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 11:02:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaria modules Message-ID: <8EC68C92-C5C3-4C84-8B13-46176008E10A@remotepowerinc.com> Solar pros, I'm looking at solaria powerXT 320 watt modules for a couple of jobs. They're new to me. has anyone here and installed them? Any opinions pro or con? thank you, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 8 15:49:24 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 12:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaria modules In-Reply-To: <8EC68C92-C5C3-4C84-8B13-46176008E10A@remotepowerinc.com> References: <8EC68C92-C5C3-4C84-8B13-46176008E10A@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <4c3e3f17689e4fdfd2cf36ca89ffde5a.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I thought they were out of business! > Solar pros, > > I'm looking at solaria powerXT 320 watt modules for a couple of jobs. > They're new to me. has anyone here and installed them? Any opinions pro or > con? > thank you, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 8 16:12:51 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 13:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need 3 Sunpower modules for client repair. Any ideas welcome! Message-ID: <64c1c07df179a08df5cdc4aaf68aef8e.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I have a repair for a client and I can no longer get Sunpower. I am a Soligent dealer. I can drive or pay shipping and a finders fee. Will take new, used, or blemished panels if they work and are the exact size of the E series 320's, 327's, or SPR X21 series. 3 minimum but 10 or more is fine also. Will trade (or cash) any new gear that I can get at Soligent also. Please respond to my e-mail only and Thank-you! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Mon May 8 16:27:02 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 16:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaria modules In-Reply-To: <4c3e3f17689e4fdfd2cf36ca89ffde5a.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <8EC68C92-C5C3-4C84-8B13-46176008E10A@remotepowerinc.com> <4c3e3f17689e4fdfd2cf36ca89ffde5a.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <3526cdb2e483abf2284e81186b6f521e.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> They aren't out of business. The downside, for me, is that the standard racking we use (SnapN Rack) comes in 122" and 162" lengths. I think of these as three module and four module lengths. With Solaria, they're not. The modules are too wide (41.6") for the "standard" configuration. There is a northeast distributor who sells them, just can't think of who right now....here's the spec sheet: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/568f7df70e4c112f75e6c82b/t/57d19ad8cd0f68eca7d6bb8c/1473354457527/Datasheet_PowerXT_Residential_Rev_1A_8-24-16.pdf Daryl > I thought they were out of business! >> Solar pros, >> >> I'm looking at solaria powerXT 320 watt modules for a couple of jobs. >> They're new to me. has anyone here and installed them? Any opinions pro >> or >> con? >> thank you, >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon May 8 17:53:55 2017 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 17:53:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof layout and proposal tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I've been using ModSolar for preliminary estimated and roof layout. While it works OK, it can be a bit kwirky at times and the aerial imagery is at times less than ideal. I'm looking to see what else is out there? Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue May 9 00:52:05 2017 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 18:52:05 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof layout and proposal tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha Carl, Have you seen or tried Helioscope? https://www.helioscope.com/ *James B. Rudolph* *Independent** Energy Systems* *ES Electrician ES-10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *c. 808.476.6754* On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I've been using ModSolar for preliminary estimated and roof layout. While > it works OK, it can be a bit kwirky at times and the aerial imagery is at > times less than ideal. I'm looking to see what else is out there? > > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Wed May 10 16:21:03 2017 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 14:21:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof layout and proposal tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carl - Check out the Software section of this article for a decent overview of options. I think Helioscope and Aurora have the best combination of features and usability. - Andrew "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 10:52 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha Carl, > Have you seen or tried Helioscope? > > https://www.helioscope.com/ > > > *James B. Rudolph* > > *Independent** Energy Systems* > > *ES Electrician ES-10816* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > > *c. 808.476.6754 <(808)%20476-6754>* > > > > > > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I've been using ModSolar for preliminary estimated and roof layout. >> While it works OK, it can be a bit kwirky at times and the aerial imagery >> is at times less than ideal. I'm looking to see what else is out there? >> >> Carl Adams >> SunRock Solar >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 11 10:40:56 2017 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 10:40:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof layout and proposal tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have found that most of the commercial cloud based offerings meet some of our needs, but none of them meet all of our needs. Each package has a ton of bells and whistles that we will never use in our sales presentation and workflow. And none of them are particularly accurate because of skewed aerial or satellite imagery not necessarily taken from directly overhead. They are all a bit clunky to use (because of the bells and whistles they want to offer require a lot of inputs unnecessary to our workflow). ModSolar, Helioscope, Aurora, Sighten, Solargraf, and many others are crowding the space. Some are trying to be CRMs. Some are trying to be Project Management tools. Some try to be everything to everyone. While there are huge advantages of an integrated product, none seem to do everything well... like a TV with an integrated VCR. For that reason, we have developed an in-house process using Trimble Sketchup Pro (formerly Google Sketchup). We can pop up roofs in 3D using techniques we have developed over the last several years to achieve amazing accuracy. These sales drawings flow through to the engineering/permitting phase for sold contracts, saving time. Between the renderings, plan views, and line drawings we get from a single panel layout effort, it's easily the best solution for the way we work. On the other hand, it does take skilled in-house resources to accomplish this. It's not the kind of thing you would train a typical salesperson to do. You need a trained sales support staff/person to do this. And you can't really do it effectively on the fly in a customer's home (unless your trained designer is on site or able to do it remotely on demand). Sadly, Trimble's deal with Google to provide imagery has just run out, and they are replacing it with a far inferior imagery product. So we can no longer use the native imagery from within Sketchup. This adds an annoying step to source imagery elsewhere, import it, scale it, and orient it first. Fortunately we can source excellent imagery from local property appraisers or elsewhere via paid and free resources, but it does increase the time required to get a sales presentation prepared. J ason Szumlanski ​ On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I've been using ModSolar for preliminary estimated and roof layout. While > it works OK, it can be a bit kwirky at times and the aerial imagery is at > times less than ideal. I'm looking to see what else is out there? > > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com Fri May 12 10:12:01 2017 From: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com (Paul Lyons) Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 10:12:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for 5 Trina modules Message-ID: <013f01d2cb29$b9daaf20$2d900d60$@ZapotecEnergy.com> Hey Campers: I'm searching for five replacement modules for a residential system we are trying to repair. Specifically, we are searching for the Trina Solar TSM-245PA05.18 module. Do any of you have access to this? We would like these shipped to our office in Cambridge. Feel free to give me a call off the list, 617-547-5900, if you have any questions. Thank you. Paul Lyons xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Paul Lyons, P.E. Zapotec Energy Inc. 675 Massachusetts Ave Cambridge, MA 02139-3309 Tel: 617-547-5900 ext.201 Fax: 617-547-5901 Mobile: 617-285-0634 Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri May 12 13:07:36 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 13:07:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Datamanager 2.0 Message-ID: <20170512170744.BC48D10C2E@che.dreamhost.com> Hello folks, I am desperately searching for a card or box for the older Fronius IG Plus series of inverters. I have a project to get 10 inverters online and have been unable to locate a source for this key component. Seems they are no longer being made. Anyone have one on a shelf somewhere, or can recommend a good potential supplier? Thanks in advance for any help-you can contact me directly. Glenn Burt Glenn.burt at glbcc.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon May 15 09:48:39 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 06:48:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo Message-ID: I was looking at the SMA web-site and it appears that the solution to address 2017 module level shutdown is basically to incorporated Tigo optimizers. That seems like a big win for Tigo. Has anyone used the Power+ Solution yet? Mark From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Mon May 15 10:38:56 2017 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 10:38:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark, We have been using Tigo for awhile on select sites. The standard Tigo solution looks pretty identical to the Power+ package. Overall we like the product and like that it now integrates with Sunny Portal. Tigo tech support is pretty good to work with though rarely returns calls. Expect you will need to work with them for firmware updates which are not automatic. I am not sure we have encountered a failed Tigo out of the box (at least not that we have been able to identify). We have encountered multiple failed Cloud Connects (internet communication device). At present about 1 in 10 never work but the good news is they have a new generation coming out with Power+. I would suggest reading Tigo compatibility guidelines closely. Tigo is currently phasing out their 375W model in favor of the 475W model. The 375 is not fully compatible with SMA (false arc faults). The 475 is allegedly compatible though we have yet to use the new product (it just hit shores this month). I don't believe 375 is listed anywhere on the unit so differentiating between it and the 475 could be difficult, especially since the part number for the 375 is a 4## number. Make sure you don't get any old units through distribution. The system has a Gateway that wirelessly communicates with each module but needs to be hardwired from the roof back through the Cloud Connect device. Three small gauge wires required. We have been using an outdoor jacketed 600V 4-wire cable in conduit with DC conductors. They say this can cause interference for monitoring purposes but I have yet to see it. Kind of obnoxious finding a wire that meets those criteria (voltage, outdoors, three wires). Tigos can clip to module frames. This eases installation and they seem to be pretty secure. That said, the ideal solution are module-integrated Tigos which a number of manufacturers make but which never seem to be available in the US. Trinasmarts for instance. Matt On Mon, May 15, 2017 9:48 am, Mark Frye wrote: > I was looking at the SMA web-site and it appears that the solution to > address 2017 module level shutdown is basically to incorporated Tigo > optimizers. > > That seems like a big win for Tigo. > > > Has anyone used the Power+ Solution yet? > > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From sunengser at gmail.com Mon May 15 11:31:33 2017 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 08:31:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matt I believe that Itek Energy will be shipping either June 1 or July 1 with Tigo ready modules. Please contact contact Karl Unterschuetz - karlU at itekenergy.com about sales. They are calling for a pre-order since they are transitioning from their old junctionbox to the Tigo. Tell him Bill Hoffer sent ya! Good solid made in USA module, I have worked on the product for them and extended testing to include PID and Bankability testing to confirm warranty. They are currently expanding into a new larger plant around 3rd quarter this year. iTek Energy at 3886 Hammer Drive, Bellingham WA 98226 itekenergy.com Hope that helps! Bill On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 7:38 AM, Matt Partymiller < matt at solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote: > Mark, > > We have been using Tigo for awhile on select sites. The standard Tigo > solution looks pretty identical to the Power+ package. Overall we like > the product and like that it now integrates with Sunny Portal. Tigo tech > support is pretty good to work with though rarely returns calls. Expect > you will need to work with them for firmware updates which are not > automatic. > > I am not sure we have encountered a failed Tigo out of the box (at least > not that we have been able to identify). We have encountered multiple > failed Cloud Connects (internet communication device). At present about 1 > in 10 never work but the good news is they have a new generation coming > out with Power+. > > I would suggest reading Tigo compatibility guidelines closely. Tigo is > currently phasing out their 375W model in favor of the 475W model. The > 375 is not fully compatible with SMA (false arc faults). The 475 is > allegedly compatible though we have yet to use the new product (it just > hit shores this month). I don't believe 375 is listed anywhere on the > unit so differentiating between it and the 475 could be difficult, > especially since the part number for the 375 is a 4## number. Make sure > you don't get any old units through distribution. > > The system has a Gateway that wirelessly communicates with each module but > needs to be hardwired from the roof back through the Cloud Connect device. > Three small gauge wires required. We have been using an outdoor jacketed > 600V 4-wire cable in conduit with DC conductors. They say this can cause > interference for monitoring purposes but I have yet to see it. Kind of > obnoxious finding a wire that meets those criteria (voltage, outdoors, > three wires). > > Tigos can clip to module frames. This eases installation and they seem to > be pretty secure. That said, the ideal solution are module-integrated > Tigos which a number of manufacturers make but which never seem to be > available in the US. Trinasmarts for instance. > > Matt > On Mon, May 15, 2017 9:48 am, Mark Frye wrote: > > I was looking at the SMA web-site and it appears that the solution to > > address 2017 module level shutdown is basically to incorporated Tigo > > optimizers. > > > > That seems like a big win for Tigo. > > > > > > Has anyone used the Power+ Solution yet? > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.ht > > ml > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Hoffer 420 SE Wyers Street P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon May 15 12:16:09 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 12:16:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301d2cd96$910e2ee0$b32a8ca0$@glbcc.com> If you are referring to 690.12(B)2 - Inside the array boundary - remember that does not become effective until Jan 1, 2019... -Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 9:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo I was looking at the SMA web-site and it appears that the solution to address 2017 module level shutdown is basically to incorporated Tigo optimizers. That seems like a big win for Tigo. Has anyone used the Power+ Solution yet? Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From tom at ecs-solar.com Mon May 15 14:40:24 2017 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 18:40:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower SMA -Tigo Questions Message-ID: I have 48 Old ( 2008 or so ) SunPower 215 watt modules on ground racks wired to two SMA SunPower 5000 transformer inverters in 24 modules for each SMA " SunPower " 5000 watt Inverter . Question Which Tigo DC optimizer should I use and what are steps 1- whatever to modify the two positively grounded SMA 5000 inverters to negatively grounded Tigos . ???Thanks GatorTom Oops Monitoring Suggestions also . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhine at abundantsolar.com Tue May 16 15:53:06 2017 From: rhine at abundantsolar.com (rhine at abundantsolar.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 12:53:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo Message-ID: <20170516125306.0765e7e073a0e0bb1e3a3314236cc6eb.8589c56975.wbe@email03.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg1 Type: image/jpeg Size: 9746 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rhine at abundantsolar.com Tue May 16 16:02:14 2017 From: rhine at abundantsolar.com (rhine at abundantsolar.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 13:02:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo] Message-ID: <20170516130214.0765e7e073a0e0bb1e3a3314236cc6eb.1257f40a28.wbe@email03.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg1 Type: image/jpeg Size: 9746 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Tue May 16 16:12:13 2017 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 16:12:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo In-Reply-To: <20170516125306.0765e7e073a0e0bb1e3a3314236cc6eb.8589c56975.wbe@email03.godaddy.com> References: <20170516125306.0765e7e073a0e0bb1e3a3314236cc6eb.8589c56975.wbe@email03.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <7559edf3a5a71af6d3139649c35a80d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Rhine, I have another strategy for you. The Tigo Rapid Shutdown works by pressing the shiny red button on the Cloud Connect device or when both the inverter and the Cloud Connect lose AC power. The inverter obviously will lose power every night. The Cloud Connect would presumably lose power during any outage (when you would want an SPS). Tigo recommended we plug the Cloud Connect into a UPS to avoid it losing power and prevent rapid shutdown. The Cloud Connect apparently draws around 1 watt per Gateway connected (just one for most resi systems). A little ridiculous setup but if you plug your Cloud Connect into a UPS you can also offer your customer a functioning SMA SPS. Moving forward it seems like SMA is integrating the Cloud Connect into the inverter which obviously prevents easily wiring it in to a UPS. Matt On Tue, May 16, 2017 3:53 pm, rhine at abundantsolar.com wrote: > > I recently installed a SMA SB 6.0 with (24) SolarWorld 295s. 16 of the 24 > modules had Tigo TS4-0's. So there was 8 Tigos per string of 12 modules. > This was a cool thing to be able to do. Where we are installing, rapid > shutdown requirements do not take effect until October 1st of 2017. This > Tigo/SMA compatibility became a problem due to SMA's secure power supply > feature. According to SMA when installing the cloud connect you are > supposed to uninstall the sps components. If you don't, the s.p.s. will > not work anyway due to Tigo's rapid shut down feature that can be > activated via ac or dc loss. This was a problem because our customer paid > for both. What I found out after calling Tigo was that they can > deactivate the "PV Safe" feature on the optimizers. Tigo required the > homeowner and I to sign a waiver to do so but this was the only > workaround I could find if you are trying to use Tigo TS4's and the SPS > feature. I just wanted to throw my experience out there. > > > > > Regards, > Rhine Chesshire > Oregon Licensed Renewable Energy Technician > Abundant Solar LLC > > > (541)609-8273 > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo > From: "Glenn Burt" > Date: Mon, May 15, 2017 9:16 am > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > > > If you are referring to 690.12(B)2 - Inside the array boundary - remember > that does not become effective until Jan 1, 2019... > > -Glenn > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Mark Frye > Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 9:49 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo > > > I was looking at the SMA web-site and it appears that the solution to > address 2017 module level shutdown is basically to incorporated Tigo > optimizers. > > That seems like a big win for Tigo. > > > Has anyone used the Power+ Solution yet? > > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 18 12:06:30 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 09:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Bridge for Li-ion In-Reply-To: <22872fc65c7319fe4c14d83833310d96.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <22872fc65c7319fe4c14d83833310d96.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <0f0023bce116a95e266ef37592d84c8b.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> The Schneider Conext Bridge link is below. This is going to happen soon but still waiting for the LG RESU10 battery to be more available. My dealer Soligent is still clueless on LG. It has been amazing to test this since last year. The LG is built for the long haul and so easy to install! You see the watts coming in from the solar and you have to do the math to prove that they are not all going into the battery and staying there ! What a difference from lead acid! Cheers! http://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-bridge/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Adding correct file....--Dave > >> Schneider Electric Solar released the brochure in the attachment below. >> They do not have a web page yet as they are getting the approvals. It >> should not be long. One will be able to go to the site and get firmware >> for the battery BMS. I have been testing it since last year with the LG >> Chem RESU-10. This is not scheduled until sometime in the 2nd half of >> 2017. >> >> The other very impressive release later this year is the Outback Skybox. >> It is an all in one dual HV mppts,5KW, and does not need a battery to >> work. It can be added later. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From ray at solarray.com Mon May 22 20:01:34 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 18:01:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport Message-ID: <39874b98-dc55-2ef9-a7c5-a408663d61a1@solarray.com> HI All; I was wondering if anyone had run into to trouble or special requirements or regulations when hauling new or dead lead acid batteries to and from job sites. Do we need to be DOT approved/ registered? This seems like a special case, since regular shipping companies do not deliver to these remote areas. The regulations etc are amazingly daunting. In the past, I've considered it a case of a contractor transporting building materials to the job site. We're not a carrier, that delivers packages for others for a living. We have rented a truck with a DOT# when we need something over the 10,000 lb gross vehicle limit, like a 1 ton truck. I'm hoping that would be adequate. Thanks in advance for your advice, -- R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue May 23 13:53:58 2017 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 10:53:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport In-Reply-To: <39874b98-dc55-2ef9-a7c5-a408663d61a1@solarray.com> References: <39874b98-dc55-2ef9-a7c5-a408663d61a1@solarray.com> Message-ID: <12764147-589A-4DDD-BCF3-9B6FC3C073DE@starlightsolar.com> Daunting, an excellent description. Means intimidating, formidable, disconcerting, unnerving, unsettling, dismaying; discouraging, disheartening, and so on. I had to become Hazmat Certified to ship lithium ion batteries….so, yes to all the synonyms. 49 CFR 173 regulates shipment and transport of batteries. They are Class 8 dangerous goods. Here’s some info about you transporting. "When packaged in accordance with 49 CFR 173.159 and transported by highway or rail, lead acid batteries are not subject to any other DOT requirements if all of the following conditions are met: • There are no other hazardous materials in the same vehicle. • The batteries are loaded or braced to prevent damage and short circuits. • Any other material loaded in the vehicle must be blocked, braced, or otherwise secured to prevent contact with or damage to the batteries. • The vehicle carries material offered only by the battery shipper. (close quote) I have not studied it but I think there is some exclusions for batteries being transported for recycling. See” https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=b79008b14fb36fd528cc84f87ed9af4e&mc=true&node=pt40.27.266&rgn=div5#sp40.29.266.g subpart G Have fun. Larry On May 22, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Ray wrote: HI All; I was wondering if anyone had run into to trouble or special requirements or regulations when hauling new or dead lead acid batteries to and from job sites. Do we need to be DOT approved/ registered? This seems like a special case, since regular shipping companies do not deliver to these remote areas. The regulations etc are amazingly daunting. In the past, I've considered it a case of a contractor transporting building materials to the job site. We're not a carrier, that delivers packages for others for a living. We have rented a truck with a DOT# when we need something over the 10,000 lb gross vehicle limit, like a 1 ton truck. I'm hoping that would be adequate. Thanks in advance for your advice, -- R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 23 13:54:23 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 10:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport In-Reply-To: <39874b98-dc55-2ef9-a7c5-a408663d61a1@solarray.com> References: <39874b98-dc55-2ef9-a7c5-a408663d61a1@solarray.com> Message-ID: <40ef96350fb7b53b634aff696d8c3d92.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> No problems here in the land of Fruits and Nuts. Breadbasket of the world and plenty of regulations :) Now that you have brought this up maybe it will happen? Soligent has been great for my deliveries. I often use a local battery dealer near the owner in their state or country. That way the owner gets a local shop and I do not have to worry about returns. I just did a system down to Guatemala and put it all in the small shipping container. Mostly pretested and ready to go once they get it out of customs... Most all of my work is extreme rural and I rarely get near a big city. Hope this helps! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > HI All; > > I was wondering if anyone had run into to trouble or special > requirements or regulations when hauling new or dead lead acid batteries > to and from job sites. Do we need to be DOT approved/ registered? This > seems like a special case, since regular shipping companies do not > deliver to these remote areas. > > The regulations etc are amazingly daunting. In the past, I've > considered it a case of a contractor transporting building materials to > the job site. We're not a carrier, that delivers packages for others for > a living. We have rented a truck with a DOT# when we need something > over the 10,000 lb gross vehicle limit, like a 1 ton truck. I'm hoping > that would be adequate. > > Thanks in advance for your advice, > > -- > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com > BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 > Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dana at solarwork.com Wed May 24 07:40:27 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 05:40:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport Message-ID: <003501d2d482$8a9f5320$9fddf960$@solarwork.com> If you ask the folks that regulate our lives with lots of rule to save us from ourselves, of course you must abide by the rules that vary state to state. I have hauled batteries very openly, well secured, at or below the speed limit for 29 years on a specially constructed 3 ton capacity trailer with an overhead I-beam similar to a propane tank trailer. I have hauled state to state from WA - SoCal - CO to ID & have never had a state or local patrol question what I am doing. I do not think it is a common enough site to arise interest. I have noticed the placarding on my delivery haulers and they do not even alter their placards. If you ask I am sure there are regulations......... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport No problems here in the land of Fruits and Nuts. Breadbasket of the world and plenty of regulations :) Now that you have brought this up maybe it will happen? Soligent has been great for my deliveries. I often use a local battery dealer near the owner in their state or country. That way the owner gets a local shop and I do not have to worry about returns. I just did a system down to Guatemala and put it all in the small shipping container. Mostly pretested and ready to go once they get it out of customs... Most all of my work is extreme rural and I rarely get near a big city. Hope this helps! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > HI All; > > I was wondering if anyone had run into to trouble or special > requirements or regulations when hauling new or dead lead acid > batteries to and from job sites. Do we need to be DOT approved/ > registered? This seems like a special case, since regular shipping > companies do not deliver to these remote areas. > > The regulations etc are amazingly daunting. In the past, I've > considered it a case of a contractor transporting building materials > to the job site. We're not a carrier, that delivers packages for others for > a living. We have rented a truck with a DOT# when we need something > over the 10,000 lb gross vehicle limit, like a 1 ton truck. I'm > hoping that would be adequate. > > Thanks in advance for your advice, > > -- > R. Ray Walters > Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 > Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, > Colorado > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dana at solarwork.com Wed May 24 07:47:51 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 05:47:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld 285 watt end frames Message-ID: <003601d2d483$93172ea0$b9458be0$@solarwork.com> I am installing SolarWorld 285 w modules for our new home on Array Technologies dual axis trackers [we are in a canyon]. The side rails of the frames are typical with a flange however the short end frame is this little kind of “I” beam that does not allow for any wire clips. I am wondering what other folks have done in this situation, short of drilling the module frame? SnapnRack has a ¾” thick clamp that creates a 7/8” min gap between the module columns that is rather unsightly. Suggestions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed May 24 09:26:04 2017 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 08:26:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld 285 watt end frames In-Reply-To: <003601d2d483$93172ea0$b9458be0$@solarwork.com> References: <003601d2d483$93172ea0$b9458be0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I use "fir tree" zip ties that will pop into the ground holes in the frame. On May 24, 2017 8:11 AM, "Dana" wrote: > I am installing SolarWorld 285 w modules for our new home on Array > Technologies dual axis trackers [we are in a canyon]. > > The side rails of the frames are typical with a flange however the short > end frame is this little kind of “I” beam that does not allow for any wire > clips. > > I am wondering what other folks have done in this situation, short of > drilling the module frame? > > SnapnRack has a ¾” thick clamp that creates a 7/8” min gap between the > module columns that is rather unsightly. > > Suggestions? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed May 24 09:28:53 2017 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 13:28:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld 285 watt end frames In-Reply-To: <003601d2d483$93172ea0$b9458be0$@solarwork.com> References: <003601d2d483$93172ea0$b9458be0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: With Solarworld/SnapNRack we run wires in the rail and use clips on the long edge of the frame when needed. SnapNRack has a clip that fits in the upper rail groove to hold wires down into it. The snap n rack part you are referencing (I think they call it 'box frame adapter') is good if you want to attach squirrel netting to the short edge of the panels, but it's bulky and expensive. I don't think it will do much for attaching wire clips. Adam On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:11 AM Dana wrote: > I am installing SolarWorld 285 w modules for our new home on Array > Technologies dual axis trackers [we are in a canyon]. > > The side rails of the frames are typical with a flange however the short > end frame is this little kind of “I” beam that does not allow for any wire > clips. > > I am wondering what other folks have done in this situation, short of > drilling the module frame? > > SnapnRack has a ¾” thick clamp that creates a 7/8” min gap between the > module columns that is rather unsightly. > > Suggestions? > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed May 24 09:36:42 2017 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 09:36:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport In-Reply-To: <003501d2d482$8a9f5320$9fddf960$@solarwork.com> References: <003501d2d482$8a9f5320$9fddf960$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <5cc5091d-7ad9-5c82-1d7e-63f31aa27f6a@four-winds-energy.com> In the early 90s and for 2 years, I drove for an expedited freight company. I had my radmat, hazmat and secret service endorsements. We had to know when to placard when under a hazmat load, where and when we could and could not travel, safe haven locations, etc. It's the RQ amount of the hazardous substance that dictates the procedure. The RQ tables can be found here: https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/DownloadableFiles/Files/172_101_appa.pdf When I started my RE company 21 years ago, the first thing I did was look into the potential issue of transporting batteries. The RQ amount for sulfuric acid or sodium hydroxide is 1000 pounds.....that's not battery weight, it's the electrolyte weight. And that's a LOT of battery! Of course, Lithium is likely a different story so all I can suggest is research it. So, as others have stated, proper securing of the load, obeying traffic laws, etc. is sufficient. Roy Butler NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors www.smallwindconference.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 5/24/2017 7:40 AM, Dana wrote: > If you ask the folks that regulate our lives with lots of rule to save us from ourselves, of course you must abide by the rules that vary state to state. I have hauled batteries very openly, well secured, at or below the speed limit for 29 years on a specially constructed 3 ton capacity trailer with an overhead I-beam similar to a propane tank trailer. I have hauled state to state from WA - SoCal - CO to ID & have never had a state or local patrol question what I am doing. I do not think it is a common enough site to arise interest. I have noticed the placarding on my delivery haulers and they do not even alter their placards. > If you ask I am sure there are regulations......... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:54 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport > > No problems here in the land of Fruits and Nuts. Breadbasket of the world and plenty of regulations :) > > Now that you have brought this up maybe it will happen? Soligent has been great for my deliveries. I often use a local battery dealer near the owner in their state or country. That way the owner gets a local shop and I do not have to worry about returns. > > I just did a system down to Guatemala and put it all in the small shipping container. Mostly pretested and ready to go once they get it out of customs... > > Most all of my work is extreme rural and I rarely get near a big city. > Hope this helps! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> HI All; >> >> I was wondering if anyone had run into to trouble or special >> requirements or regulations when hauling new or dead lead acid >> batteries to and from job sites. Do we need to be DOT approved/ >> registered? This seems like a special case, since regular shipping >> companies do not deliver to these remote areas. >> >> The regulations etc are amazingly daunting. In the past, I've >> considered it a case of a contractor transporting building materials >> to the job site. We're not a carrier, that delivers packages for others for >> a living. We have rented a truck with a DOT# when we need something >> over the 10,000 lb gross vehicle limit, like a 1 ton truck. I'm >> hoping that would be adequate. >> >> Thanks in advance for your advice, >> >> -- >> R. Ray Walters >> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 >> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, >> Colorado >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 24 10:30:11 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 07:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld 285 watt end frames In-Reply-To: References: <003601d2d483$93172ea0$b9458be0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <524887ec0019f16fdb907faaf375c6a8.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I think my "wattsuns" look fine with just wire ties and not really any special effort. It does sound nice to go in the rail. I can put a pix in here later when I get home if you ask? Not worried about squirrels here but I would like to get some of the metal bird protector (often seen at airports) to keep them from sitting up top and doing their business. Anyone know who has it? --Dave > With Solarworld/SnapNRack we run wires in the rail and use clips on the > long edge of the frame when needed. SnapNRack has a clip that fits in the > upper rail groove to hold wires down into it. The snap n rack part you are > referencing (I think they call it 'box frame adapter') is good if you want > to attach squirrel netting to the short edge of the panels, but it's bulky > and expensive. I don't think it will do much for attaching wire clips. > Adam > > On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:11 AM Dana wrote: > >> I am installing SolarWorld 285 w modules for our new home on Array >> Technologies dual axis trackers [we are in a canyon]. >> >> The side rails of the frames are typical with a flange however the short >> end frame is this little kind of “I” beam that does not allow for >> any wire >> clips. >> >> I am wondering what other folks have done in this situation, short of >> drilling the module frame? >> >> SnapnRack has a ¾” thick clamp that creates a 7/8” min gap between >> the >> module columns that is rather unsightly. >> >> Suggestions? >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 24 10:23:48 2017 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 07:23:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld 285 watt end frames In-Reply-To: References: <003601d2d483$93172ea0$b9458be0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Solar World Sun Clips are what I would use. Jay Peltz power. > On May 24, 2017, at 6:28 AM, AE Solar wrote: > > With Solarworld/SnapNRack we run wires in the rail and use clips on the long edge of the frame when needed. SnapNRack has a clip that fits in the upper rail groove to hold wires down into it. The snap n rack part you are referencing (I think they call it 'box frame adapter') is good if you want to attach squirrel netting to the short edge of the panels, but it's bulky and expensive. I don't think it will do much for attaching wire clips. > Adam > >> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:11 AM Dana wrote: >> I am installing SolarWorld 285 w modules for our new home on Array Technologies dual axis trackers [we are in a canyon]. >> >> The side rails of the frames are typical with a flange however the short end frame is this little kind of “I” beam that does not allow for any wire clips. >> >> I am wondering what other folks have done in this situation, short of drilling the module frame? >> >> SnapnRack has a ¾” thick clamp that creates a 7/8” min gap between the module columns that is rather unsightly. >> >> Suggestions? >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Wed May 24 12:20:01 2017 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 16:20:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport In-Reply-To: <5cc5091d-7ad9-5c82-1d7e-63f31aa27f6a@four-winds-energy.com> References: <003501d2d482$8a9f5320$9fddf960$@solarwork.com>, <5cc5091d-7ad9-5c82-1d7e-63f31aa27f6a@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: I've gone through the hazardous materials transportation training this year and have received a certification for transporting our LFP based AC Batteries. Title 49 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR-49) applies to the transport of Lithium-Ion batteries by road and highway shippers and IATA regulations apply to shipments by air. My understanding is that generally speaking, a company that is delivering batteries as part of their regular business do not need any specific certification, but should be trained on safe transportation procedures. If you are a driver that is delivering the batteries for a shipping company, then you must be more familiar with the labeling and packaging requirements and training is required. CFR-49, Part 172, Subpart H states that if you are a Hazmat employee, you should be trained to properly transport hazardous materials. The employer is ultimately responsible for verifying that the employee is capable of safely transporting these materials, but no specific certification is required. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy | Field Applications Engineer (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved ™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” - William McDonough ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Roy Butler Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 6:36 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport In the early 90s and for 2 years, I drove for an expedited freight company. I had my radmat, hazmat and secret service endorsements. We had to know when to placard when under a hazmat load, where and when we could and could not travel, safe haven locations, etc. It's the RQ amount of the hazardous substance that dictates the procedure. The RQ tables can be found here: https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/DownloadableFiles/Files/172_101_appa.pdf When I started my RE company 21 years ago, the first thing I did was look into the potential issue of transporting batteries. The RQ amount for sulfuric acid or sodium hydroxide is 1000 pounds.....that's not battery weight, it's the electrolyte weight. And that's a LOT of battery! Of course, Lithium is likely a different story so all I can suggest is research it. So, as others have stated, proper securing of the load, obeying traffic laws, etc. is sufficient. Roy Butler NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors www.smallwindconference.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 5/24/2017 7:40 AM, Dana wrote: > If you ask the folks that regulate our lives with lots of rule to save us from ourselves, of course you must abide by the rules that vary state to state. I have hauled batteries very openly, well secured, at or below the speed limit for 29 years on a specially constructed 3 ton capacity trailer with an overhead I-beam similar to a propane tank trailer. I have hauled state to state from WA - SoCal - CO to ID & have never had a state or local patrol question what I am doing. I do not think it is a common enough site to arise interest. I have noticed the placarding on my delivery haulers and they do not even alter their placards. > If you ask I am sure there are regulations......... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:54 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport > > No problems here in the land of Fruits and Nuts. Breadbasket of the world and plenty of regulations :) > > Now that you have brought this up maybe it will happen? Soligent has been great for my deliveries. I often use a local battery dealer near the owner in their state or country. That way the owner gets a local shop and I do not have to worry about returns. > > I just did a system down to Guatemala and put it all in the small shipping container. Mostly pretested and ready to go once they get it out of customs... > > Most all of my work is extreme rural and I rarely get near a big city. > Hope this helps! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> HI All; >> >> I was wondering if anyone had run into to trouble or special >> requirements or regulations when hauling new or dead lead acid >> batteries to and from job sites. Do we need to be DOT approved/ >> registered? This seems like a special case, since regular shipping >> companies do not deliver to these remote areas. >> >> The regulations etc are amazingly daunting. In the past, I've >> considered it a case of a contractor transporting building materials >> to the job site. We're not a carrier, that delivers packages for others for >> a living. We have rented a truck with a DOT# when we need something >> over the 10,000 lb gross vehicle limit, like a 1 ton truck. I'm >> hoping that would be adequate. >> >> Thanks in advance for your advice, >> >> -- >> R. Ray Walters >> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 >> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, >> Colorado >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed May 24 13:58:56 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 13:58:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuse for 48 V DC Message-ID: <20170524175902.8274F10B1A@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, I'm looking for in line fuse and fuse holders for a 48 VDC systems in the 1 - 4 Amp rating. The systems can go 67 VDC. FRN-R fuses have this rating but are slow blow, 8 seconds at 500% current rating. Is a glass fuse and in line fuse holder, listed for this voltage and amperage, available anywhere? It seem that the default is to use 250 VAC glass fuses and holders, which seems like a questionable practice to me. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Wed May 24 14:05:18 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 14:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Electrical Code question about load side taps In-Reply-To: References: <003501d2d482$8a9f5320$9fddf960$@solarwork.com>, <5cc5091d-7ad9-5c82-1d7e-63f31aa27f6a@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: Is anyone out there familiar enough with CEC 2015 to answer a question for me about load side taps in a generator transfer switch? To the best of your knowledge, is using load side taps allowed when connecting PV to the utility side of an ATS? Thanks, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Penobscot Solar Design From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed May 24 14:18:06 2017 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 18:18:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuse for 48 V DC In-Reply-To: <20170524175902.8274F10B1A@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170524175902.8274F10B1A@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: How about Midnite din mount 150vdc breakers. 1-63 amp range. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On May 24, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Drake > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I'm looking for in line fuse and fuse holders for a 48 VDC systems in the 1 - 4 Amp rating. The systems can go 67 VDC. FRN-R fuses have this rating but are slow blow, 8 seconds at 500% current rating. Is a glass fuse and in line fuse holder, listed for this voltage and amperage, available anywhere? It seem that the default is to use 250 VAC glass fuses and holders, which seems like a questionable practice to me. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed May 24 14:51:38 2017 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 12:51:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuse for 48 V DC In-Reply-To: References: <20170524175902.8274F10B1A@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <4a4e8544-5d4b-1d85-b18a-6e39d5569f35@solarray.com> We've used the inline glass fuses for metering and battery fan applications for 20 years without trouble. I certainly wouldn't use them over 5 amps though. I actually tested these inline fuses on a 144 vdc vehicle battery bank once, and they blew without arcing or burning. Of Course my name is not UL. However, this is also the fuse that comes with Trimetric, Victron E-meters, and the Zephyr power vents, currently. Also, glass fuses were used in many DC power centers back in the day, so they have a long and proven track record in the 48 v dc solar industry for low amp applications. I found a standard fuse holder from Grainger that is rated for 300 Vdc. The regular AGC fuse does not list a DC rating, which is odd, since it is used for DC all the time. The ABC fuses are listed to 125 vdc and are fast acting. http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electrical/products/electronic_smalldimension/elx_1_4_x_1-1_4_/abc.brands.cooper_bussmann.html R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 On 5/24/17 12:18 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > How about Midnite din mount 150vdc breakers. 1-63 amp range. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On May 24, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Drake > > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I'm looking for in line fuse and fuse holders for a 48 VDC systems in >> the 1 - 4 Amp rating. The systems can go 67 VDC. FRN-R fuses have >> this rating but are slow blow, 8 seconds at 500% current rating. >> >> Is a glass fuse and in line fuse holder, listed for this voltage and >> amperage, available anywhere? It seem that the default is to use 250 >> VAC glass fuses and holders, which seems like a questionable practice >> to me. >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> /Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> /http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed May 24 15:46:25 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:46:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport In-Reply-To: <39874b98-dc55-2ef9-a7c5-a408663d61a1@solarray.com> References: <39874b98-dc55-2ef9-a7c5-a408663d61a1@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20170524194622.962D510295@che.dreamhost.com> I just saw a Rolls safety data sheet for their FLA batteries that has a section discussing transport requirements and precautions. It is on their website. -----Original Message----- From: "Ray" Sent: ‎5/‎22/‎2017 20:01 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Transport HI All; I was wondering if anyone had run into to trouble or special requirements or regulations when hauling new or dead lead acid batteries to and from job sites. Do we need to be DOT approved/ registered? This seems like a special case, since regular shipping companies do not deliver to these remote areas. The regulations etc are amazingly daunting. In the past, I've considered it a case of a contractor transporting building materials to the job site. We're not a carrier, that delivers packages for others for a living. We have rented a truck with a DOT# when we need something over the 10,000 lb gross vehicle limit, like a 1 ton truck. I'm hoping that would be adequate. Thanks in advance for your advice, -- R. Ray Walters Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com BS Mech Engineering, 1988 Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed May 24 18:55:27 2017 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 16:55:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld Sun Clips Message-ID: <008e01d2d4e0$d6c60470$84520d50$@solarwork.com> Any suggestion on where I might find these little jewels Please respond off line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 8:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld 285 watt end frames Solar World Sun Clips are what I would use. Jay Peltz power. On May 24, 2017, at 6:28 AM, AE Solar > wrote: With Solarworld/SnapNRack we run wires in the rail and use clips on the long edge of the frame when needed. SnapNRack has a clip that fits in the upper rail groove to hold wires down into it. The snap n rack part you are referencing (I think they call it 'box frame adapter') is good if you want to attach squirrel netting to the short edge of the panels, but it's bulky and expensive. I don't think it will do much for attaching wire clips. Adam On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:11 AM Dana > wrote: I am installing SolarWorld 285 w modules for our new home on Array Technologies dual axis trackers [we are in a canyon]. The side rails of the frames are typical with a flange however the short end frame is this little kind of “I” beam that does not allow for any wire clips. I am wondering what other folks have done in this situation, short of drilling the module frame? SnapnRack has a ¾” thick clamp that creates a 7/8” min gap between the module columns that is rather unsightly. Suggestions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu May 25 18:23:43 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 18:23:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuse for 48 V DC In-Reply-To: <4a4e8544-5d4b-1d85-b18a-6e39d5569f35@solarray.com> References: <20170524175902.8274F10B1A@che.dreamhost.com> <4a4e8544-5d4b-1d85-b18a-6e39d5569f35@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20170525222352.51E9110481@che.dreamhost.com> I guess I will go with the 250 V glass fuses. For 24 V systems, DC fuses are readily available at auto parts stores. It seems wonkey to use fuses not rated for DC applications, but if they hold at 144 VDC, I'm sold. There is no code issue at present. Has anyone had problems with inspectors using these. Thanks to all who shared their knowledge, on and off the list. Drake At 02:51 PM 5/24/2017, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------8DE54A1A6E5488D0D6697B6F" >Content-Language: en-US > >We've used the inline glass fuses for metering >and battery fan applications for 20 years >without trouble. I certainly wouldn't use them >over 5 amps though. I actually tested these >inline fuses on a 144 vdc vehicle battery bank >once, and they blew without arcing or >burning. Of Course my name is not >UL. However, this is also the fuse that comes >with Trimetric, Victron E-meters, and the Zephyr >power vents, currently. Also, glass fuses were >used in many DC power centers back in the day, >so they have a long and proven track record in >the 48 v dc solar industry for low amp applications. > >I found a standard fuse holder from Grainger >that is rated for 300 Vdc. The regular AGC >fuse does not list a DC rating, which is odd, >since it is used for DC all the time. The ABC >fuses are listed to 125 vdc and are fast acting. > >http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electrical/products/electronic_smalldimension/elx_1_4_x_1-1_4_/abc.brands.cooper_bussmann.html > >R. Ray Walters >Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com >BS Mech Engineering, 1988 >Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016 >Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado >303 505-8760On 5/24/17 12:18 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>How about Midnite din mount 150vdc breakers. 1-63 amp range. >> >>Jeremy Rodriguez >>Solar Installation And Design Expert >>All Solar, Inc. >>1463 M St >>Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >>Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> >>On May 24, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Drake >><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >>wrote: >> >>>Hello Wrenches, >>> >>>I'm looking for in line fuse and fuse holders >>>for a 48 VDC systems in the 1 - 4 Amp rating. >>>The systems can go 67 VDC. FRN-R fuses have >>>this rating but are slow blow, 8 seconds at 500% current rating. >>> >>>Is a glass fuse and in line fuse holder, >>>listed for this voltage and amperage, >>>available anywhere? It seem that the default >>>is to use 250 VAC glass fuses and holders, >>>which seems like a questionable practice to me. >>> >>>Drake >>> >>>Drake Chamberlin >>>Athens Electric LLC >>>OH License 44810 >>>CO License 3773 >>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>740-448-7328 >>>http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>[] >>> Virus-free. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri May 26 08:18:10 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 08:18:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Electrical Code question about load side taps In-Reply-To: References: <003501d2d482$8a9f5320$9fddf960$@solarwork.com>, <5cc5091d-7ad9-5c82-1d7e-63f31aa27f6a@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: I'll rephrase this and possibly someone has a suggestion. In the Bahamas (they use CEC 2015), they are currently not allowing any load side taps in gentran switches. They suggest including a large, expensive load center with backfed breakers to combine the utility and pv ac output before connecting to the gentran. I thought I read that some people are using relays to open a circuit when the utility goes down. Is there anything ul listed that might fit this bill, or does anyone have any other ideas that are less expensive than $1500+ for each system. This is all 3 phase and most people have at least a 200 amp service. Thanks for any suggestions, Daryl > Is anyone out there familiar enough with CEC 2015 to answer a question for > me about load side taps in a generator transfer switch? To the best of > your knowledge, is using load side taps allowed when connecting PV to the > utility side of an ATS? > > Thanks, > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PV > Penobscot Solar Design > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri May 26 16:00:31 2017 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 16:00:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] string fusing with 3-channel MPPT inverters Message-ID: <00f401d2d65a$bb9831c0$32c89540$@icloud.com> I'm installing a 3-input SMA 7.7kw inverter. Someone just mentioned to me string fusing, normally required for >2 inputs may not be required since each input has it's own MPPT circuit. In essence treated like separate single MPPT inverters for fusing's sake. I don't believe it, but opinions? Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 26th Anniversary 1991-2017 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Fri May 26 16:19:05 2017 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 13:19:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] string fusing with 3-channel MPPT inverters In-Reply-To: <00f401d2d65a$bb9831c0$32c89540$@icloud.com> References: <00f401d2d65a$bb9831c0$32c89540$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <1ef73f541aa53dc84e9dc04efe719360@mail.gmail.com> Hi Kirk, Yes that is correct. On a three-input inverter, you could have as many as 6 strings of modules, 2 per MPPT input, and you would not need any overcurrent protection on any of the strings. One of the beauties of inverters with multiple MPPT inputs. Along with the fact that the strings can be different lengths, orientations, and even be different modules in each string. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander *Sent:* Friday, May 26, 2017 1:01 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] string fusing with 3-channel MPPT inverters I’m installing a 3-input SMA 7.7kw inverter. Someone just mentioned to me string fusing, normally required for >2 inputs may not be required since each input has it’s own MPPT circuit. In essence treated like separate single MPPT inverters for fusing’s sake. I don’t believe it, but opinions? Thanks. *Kirk Herander* *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * *Celebrating our 26th Anniversary 1991-2017* *www.vermontsolarnow.com * dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sun May 28 14:28:45 2017 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 18:28:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for solar canopy Message-ID: Wrenches, We are doing some small solar canopies (bifacial panels on wooden purgola type substructures) and looking for racking ideas. The solution offered to us right now is by a company called structural solar, and is nice because it is sleek, offers a place to hide all the wires, and creates a rain tight canopy...but it's pricey. Does anyone have other recommendations for racking solutions they have used in similar scenarios? Thanks Adam -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon May 29 10:21:05 2017 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:21:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for solar canopy References: Message-ID: <6A2EB6F6084E4C69BE85E779AE63F116@PeterPC> Adam We may be able to help you out. Please call me at 678 525 0468. thx Peter Giroux ASAE ----- Original Message ----- From: AE Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 2:28 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for solar canopy Wrenches, We are doing some small solar canopies (bifacial panels on wooden purgola type substructures) and looking for racking ideas. The solution offered to us right now is by a company called structural solar, and is nice because it is sleek, offers a place to hide all the wires, and creates a rain tight canopy...but it's pricey. Does anyone have other recommendations for racking solutions they have used in similar scenarios? Thanks Adam -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 31 13:50:37 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 10:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for solar canopy In-Reply-To: <6A2EB6F6084E4C69BE85E779AE63F116@PeterPC> References: <6A2EB6F6084E4C69BE85E779AE63F116@PeterPC> Message-ID: <26082c586de91f678e0da86660d30f49.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Did you look in Solar Pro last issue? I thought I saw one there. Attached is an Old Sanyo bifacial. Not water tight but... --Dave > Adam > > We may be able to help you out. Please call me at 678 525 0468. > > thx > Peter Giroux > ASAE > ----- Original Message ----- > From: AE Solar > To: RE-wrenches > Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 2:28 PM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for solar canopy > > > Wrenches, > We are doing some small solar canopies (bifacial panels on wooden > purgola type substructures) and looking for racking ideas. The solution > offered to us right now is by a company called structural solar, and is > nice because it is sleek, offers a place to hide all the wires, and > creates a rain tight canopy...but it's pricey. Does anyone have other > recommendations > for racking solutions they have used in similar scenarios? > Thanks > Adam > -- > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pergola.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 337534 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Jun 1 12:12:48 2017 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 12:12:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tree lights Message-ID: <14E866F4-9BC4-4191-9082-04B7B0351F0A@solareagle.com> Hi Wrenches, I have a client that wants to light up trees in his yard using solar packages in each tree. Haven’t seen this except for novelty lights. This client wants something sturdy & long lasting. Has anyone done this or have suggestions other than parting together the individual components? Thanks! Ron Young earthRight Solar From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Jun 2 00:17:21 2017 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 04:17:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact Message-ID: Hello, I have a potential client needed some help with an Apollo charge controller. If anyone has a current phone number I'd appreciate it. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:10:31 2017 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 11:10:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believed I used the below number about a year ago: 203-790-6400 <%28203%29%20790-6400> I've also used: techsupport at apollosolar.com with some success. Good Luck, Howie On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 12:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Hello, > I have a potential client needed some help with an Apollo charge > controller. If anyone has a current phone number I'd appreciate it. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And > Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Jun 2 14:10:26 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3da9e0a602f2f74f98852ce1baca673b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> I'm not sure if Daniel Two Eagles is still working with Apollo, but his number is (603)654-4333. Maybe he can help if these other suggestions don't. Daryl > I believed I used the below number about a year ago: > > 203-790-6400 <%28203%29%20790-6400> > > > I've also used: > > > techsupport at apollosolar.com > > > with some success. > > Good Luck, > Howie > > On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 12:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > >> Hello, >> I have a potential client needed some help with an Apollo charge >> controller. If anyone has a current phone number I'd appreciate it. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And >> Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From Tom at solar-biz.com Fri Jun 2 16:35:39 2017 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 20:35:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A year or so ago I tried in vain to get anywhere with Apollo and I know Daniel and John personally... didn't help... I fear it's a dead end. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Please note my new E-Mail E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"  Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 11:17 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact Hello, I have a potential client needed some help with an Apollo charge controller. If anyone has a current phone number I'd appreciate it. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jun 2 18:18:46 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tree lights In-Reply-To: <14E866F4-9BC4-4191-9082-04B7B0351F0A@solareagle.com> References: <14E866F4-9BC4-4191-9082-04B7B0351F0A@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <0f6dc402a83f18425d92b7f92a0d75f4.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I would also like something that is built for the long haul. Not much out there except the usual suspects at costco and they are pretty much expendables. --Dave > Hi Wrenches, I have a client that wants to light up trees in his yard > using solar packages in each tree. Haven’t seen this except for novelty > lights. This client wants something sturdy & long lasting. Has anyone done > this or have suggestions other than parting together the individual > components? Thanks! > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Jun 2 19:31:54 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 19:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tree lights In-Reply-To: <0f6dc402a83f18425d92b7f92a0d75f4.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <14E866F4-9BC4-4191-9082-04B7B0351F0A@solareagle.com> <0f6dc402a83f18425d92b7f92a0d75f4.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <9ed216473f61f6b8160c64fe781d380c.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> I have used three strings of these for three seasons now and they keep on tickin'...decent company and decently made lights with a lot of variety: https://www.environmentallights.com/led-christmas-lights/led-solar-string-lights.html Daryl > I would also like something that is built for the long haul. Not much out > there except the usual suspects at costco and they are pretty much > expendables. --Dave > > >> Hi Wrenches, I have a client that wants to light up trees in his yard >> using solar packages in each tree. Haven’t seen this except for >> novelty >> lights. This client wants something sturdy & long lasting. Has anyone >> done >> this or have suggestions other than parting together the individual >> components? Thanks! >> >> Ron Young >> earthRight Solar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jun 2 21:58:43 2017 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 18:58:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The strange days of CitizenRe and it's plans to join with Apollo to deliver solar thru vertical marketing are now well in the past; subsumed and surpassed by Solar City / Tesla, which will pass into the annals of history in it's own time...... ....CitizenRE...they had it right, but but they didn't do it right....and a bit before their time... ....there but for the grace of God go I. On 6/2/2017 1:35 PM, Tom Duffy wrote: > A year or so ago I tried in vain to get anywhere with Apollo and I know Daniel and John personally... didn't help... I fear it's a dead end. > > Kind regards > > Tom Duffy > Senior Solar Design Engineer > > Please note my new E-Mail > E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com > Main Number: 888-826-0939 > Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 > Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 > International: 575-539-2111 X 122 > SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) > I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 11:17 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact > > Hello, > I have a potential client needed some help with an Apollo charge controller. If anyone has a current phone number I'd appreciate it. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And > Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jun 3 12:06:41 2017 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 10:06:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tree lights In-Reply-To: <14E866F4-9BC4-4191-9082-04B7B0351F0A@solareagle.com> References: <14E866F4-9BC4-4191-9082-04B7B0351F0A@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Is this lighting the tree itself as a landscaping highlight, or stringing Xmas lights in it? For the latter, all I've seen is cheap Costco stuff. For the former, I'd go with a central PV/battery location and run low-voltage lines to each tree, with a commercial-grade LED light. The placement of individual PV for each tree would be problematic and likely more intrusive visually than a nicely-sited PV/battery box, and all the individual tree systems I've seen were low quality. And your client could still tell everyone that his accent landscape lights are solar... Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Ron Young wrote: > Hi Wrenches, I have a client that wants to light up trees in his yard > using solar packages in each tree. Haven’t seen this except for novelty > lights. This client wants something sturdy & long lasting. Has anyone done > this or have suggestions other than parting together the individual > components? Thanks! > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jun 3 16:14:14 2017 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 13:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely agree! Tesla is bleeding 8 million a day and still taking your 1K$ check for a 2018 installation. Their only savings are that Panasonic will get the factories back east and a real "bankable" company will still be there! Sheeesh! --Dave > The strange days of CitizenRe and it's plans to join with Apollo to > deliver solar thru vertical marketing are now well in the past; subsumed > and surpassed by Solar City / Tesla, which will pass into the annals of > history in it's own time...... > > ....CitizenRE...they had it right, but but they didn't do it > right....and a bit before their time... > > ....there but for the grace of God go I. > > On 6/2/2017 1:35 PM, Tom Duffy wrote: >> A year or so ago I tried in vain to get anywhere with Apollo and I know >> Daniel and John personally... didn't help... I fear it's a dead end. >> >> Kind regards >> >> Tom Duffy >> Senior Solar Design Engineer >> >> Please note my new E-Mail >> E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com >> Main Number: 888-826-0939 >> Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 >> Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 >> International: 575-539-2111 X 122 >> SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) >> I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it >> just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a >> few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in >> just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" >> Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for >> the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and >> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or >> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez >> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 11:17 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact >> >> Hello, >> I have a potential client needed some help with an Apollo charge >> controller. If anyone has a current phone number I'd appreciate it. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And >> Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sun Jun 4 07:47:28 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 07:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Three phase, ac coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Esteemed wrenches, Would anyone have a suggestion for an 8-10 kW 3 phase 208/120 battery based inverter that might be ac coupled with a Solaredge grid tied system already in place? None of the usual suspects (OutBack, Schneider, Magnum,SMA, etc.) will work without considerable expense. Has anyone used Victron or MLT? If so, have you had success with them as far as reliability? Thanks, Daryl From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Jun 4 13:06:07 2017 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2017 13:06:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 Wire Delta Message-ID: <20170604170610.E251110496@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, I've recently learned that AEP, our utility company, believes it is unsafe to backfeed a 4 wire delta transformer. Does anyone know what the issues are? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Jun 4 14:37:10 2017 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 11:37:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 Wire Delta In-Reply-To: <20170604170610.E251110496@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170604170610.E251110496@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <9ABB2984-AA34-4A22-B181-CC25E5738529@millersolar.com> Drake: We are finalizing a project in San Jose back feeding an open delta. The utility has lots of of picky restrictions but they don't seem to balk at the fact the service is delta. William > On Jun 4, 2017, at 10:06 AM, Drake wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I've recently learned that AEP, our utility company, believes it is unsafe to backfeed a 4 wire delta transformer. Does anyone know what the issues are? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Mon Jun 5 10:49:04 2017 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 10:49:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed. 30% grant to businesses, 1603 arbitrary reduction of grants Message-ID: <09a301d2de0a$e0a562a0$a1f027e0$@ecologicalsystems.biz> Not sure if this is the right place to post this. But many solar installation companies had their 1603 grants arbitrarily reduced, IF you or any solar company you know thinks that you might have been mistreated or had your grant amount reduced unfairly…. Please contact me off list, a legal firm is taking action. They’ve already won a major case and want to help other companies. Sincerely, Sky Sims Ecological Systems www.ecologicalsystems.biz 220 CR 522 Manalapan, NJ 07726 732-462-3858 fax)732-462-3962 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jun 5 11:19:05 2017 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2017 08:19:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 Wire Delta In-Reply-To: <20170604170610.E251110496@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20170604170610.E251110496@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <59357669.5080007@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 5 11:50:26 2017 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 08:50:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 Wire Delta In-Reply-To: <59357669.5080007@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <20170604170610.E251110496@che.dreamhost.com> <59357669.5080007@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: We have done many high-leg delta installations with both single phase and three phase inverters here in the Bay Area. Besides the normal stinger-leg type issues of trying to install a single phase 120 volt load across the high leg, I’m not aware of any particular problems. Certainly we see many existing old services where the high leg spots are left blank and only two of the three phases are used for branch circuits. It seems like perhaps this would cause load balancing type issue with the utility. I’m by no means familiar with the ins and outs of what causes transformer problems, however. August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater *Sent:* Monday, June 05, 2017 8:19 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 4 Wire Delta Hi Drake, Souther Cal Edison allowed us to do a High-Leg Delta - sharing this in the chance like William that at least you can say others have - can't imagine what their issue is. Best, Jeff Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I've recently learned that AEP, our utility company, believes it is unsafe to backfeed a 4 wire delta transformer. Does anyone know what the issues are? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ [image: Image removed by sender.] Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant Former NABCEP Certified - 2003-2012 Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 www.villagepowerdesign.com 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 18:48:55 2017 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 16:48:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow retention / removal for Lumos carports Message-ID: Wrenches, We're looking at a Lumos carport project in NJ and I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts / recommendations / experience with how to handle snow on carport structures. The fact that Lumos modules are frameless adds an unfortunate wrinkle since no existing clamp-type solutions (that I've found) will work. After hearing about some carports that have toppled over under heavy snow loads we're considering just contracting with a snow removal service, but that would be costly. Any input would be much appreciated. Regards, *Andrew Truitt* Director of Emerging Technologies | *DIVIDEND* *SOLAR* mobile 202-486-7507 <(202)%20486-7507> online *www.dividendsolar.com * NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Sat Jun 10 13:41:02 2017 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 17:41:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing References: <457925232.6261280.1497116462722.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <457925232.6261280.1497116462722@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Wrenches, Can anyone direct me to a source for stainless hanger bolts without going through a solar distributor?  I remember around 15 years ago a supplier up in the Seattle area, but now cannot find them.  Any help is appreciated. Cheers,Jerry Caldwell On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 6:43 AM, August Goers wrote: Bill –  So it sounds like you have a corrugated metal roof installed by a handyman over an existing comp shingle roof? It might be wise to get your building department planchecker or inspector involved at this point since it sounds like you have a potential code violation. Adding PV to an already shotty roof setup will just compound problems down the line. That said, if you can’t trust the purlins (or what I think you are referring to as 1” x 4” stringers) to be structural members, then I suppose you could install long hanger bolts all the way through the metal roof and into the  rafters? You could use a double jam-nut setup to mount your racking. Just an idea, but it is not an ideal situation.  Good luck out there! Best, August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 7:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Benn, August, etc        Sorry for omitting a somewhat crucial detail....below these stringers it is a "standard" residential stacked roof with 2X6 rafters on 16" centers with 1/2 " plywood deck. No purlins.  I appreciate the feedback/good ideas.BillFeather River Solar Electric On 4/29/2016 3:28 PM, August Goers wrote: Benn, We’ve done it several ways including putting four 14 x 1.5” TYPE 17 screws per attachment point through the metal and into the 1” x wood purlin. The key is that the load path all the way down needs to be capable of handling the worst case loads. So we had to check that too. Some racking manufactures such as Unirac have online calculators to give point loads.  Best, August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 2:17 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing August, et al;If the purlins are only 1"x4" or 1"x6" or....1"x anything, are you only relying on the 1" purlin as the attachment point or are you hitting the vertical trusses below the purlins? We are working on a corrugated roof right now and using a Schletter roof bracket. The name of it escapes me at the moment. Maybe FixT?  We are attaching to purlins which are 2"x6".  I wouldn't think 1"x anything would provide enough pull-out?Benn KilburnSkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807  On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:09 AM, August Goers wrote: Hi Bill, It sounds like you’re talking about a purlin type setup – 4’ sounds a little far apart but I guess that’s what you have to deal with. If you have a corrugated metal roof, we’ve used S-5 CurruBrackets screwed through the metal and into the purlins and then either run the solar rail up and down the roof or install a sub-rack system (with strut or angle aluminum) perpendicular to your solar rail.  Best, August  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 6:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a "handyman".  Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the roof  on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from ridge to eaves).  Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers.  I'm sure he had a great reason for doing so.  So now I have been asked to install an array on this roof.  You can feel how "soft" the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on air-below-metal for most of the roof.  Stringer locations don't jive with possible feet/post locations for rail.  I'm usually pretty good at problem solving but I'm accepting ideas.BillFeather River Solar Electric            Bill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org  -- Feather River Solar Electric            Bill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sat Jun 10 13:52:41 2017 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 13:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <457925232.6261280.1497116462722@mail.yahoo.com> References: <457925232.6261280.1497116462722.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <457925232.6261280.1497116462722@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2c5260ce8781fe688552dd8f9b7d0d98.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> These guys sell all sizes: https://www.buyrailings.com/product/hanger-bolt-316-stainless-steel-m8-x-2-each-/5368?gdffi=a1d228a0145c40b2b64b7bf62559eafa&gdfms=A2FA3E88DA104CFB950485A2F169884A&keyword=&gclid=CNmksPTrs9QCFQpMDQod7S0LYA Daryl > Dear Wrenches, > Can anyone direct me to a source for stainless hanger bolts without going > through a solar distributor?  I remember around 15 years ago a supplier > up in the Seattle area, but now cannot find them.  Any help is > appreciated. > Cheers,Jerry Caldwell > > On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 6:43 AM, August Goers > wrote: > > > Bill –  So it sounds like you have > a corrugated metal roof installed by a handyman over an existing comp > shingle roof? It might be wise to get your building department > planchecker or inspector involved at this point since it sounds like you > have a potential code violation. Adding PV to an already shotty roof > setup will just compound problems down the line. That said, if you > can’t trust the purlins (or what I think you are referring to as 1” x > 4” stringers) to be structural members, then I suppose you could > install long hanger bolts all the way through the metal roof and into the >  rafters? You could use a double jam-nut setup to mount your racking. > Just an idea, but it is not an ideal situation.  Good luck out > there! Best, August From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 7:47 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Benn, August, etc        > Sorry for omitting a somewhat crucial detail....below these stringers it > is a "standard" residential stacked roof with 2X6 rafters on 16" centers > with 1/2 " plywood deck. No purlins.  I appreciate the feedback/good > ideas.BillFeather River Solar Electric On 4/29/2016 3:28 PM, August Goers > wrote: > Benn, We’ve done it several ways including putting four 14 x 1.5” > TYPE 17 screws per attachment point through the metal and into the 1” x > wood purlin. The key is that the load path all the way down needs to be > capable of handling the worst case loads. So we had to check that too. > Some racking manufactures such as Unirac have online calculators to give > point loads.  Best, August From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn > Kilburn > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 2:17 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing August, et al;If the purlins are > only 1"x4" or 1"x6" or....1"x anything, are you only relying on the 1" > purlin as the attachment point or are you hitting the vertical trusses > below the purlins? We are working on a corrugated roof right now and > using a Schletter roof bracket. The name of it escapes me at the moment. > Maybe FixT?  We are attaching to purlins which are 2"x6".  I wouldn't > think 1"x anything would provide enough pull-out?Benn KilburnSkyFire > Energy Inc. 780-906-7807  > On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:09 AM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Bill, It sounds like you’re talking about a purlin type setup – > 4’ sounds a little far apart but I guess that’s what you have to deal > with. If you have a corrugated metal roof, we’ve used S-5 CurruBrackets > screwed through the metal and into the purlins and then either run the > solar rail up and down the roof or install a sub-rack system (with strut > or angle aluminum) perpendicular to your solar rail.  Best, August >  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 6:55 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Recently, a customer had a metal > roof (not standing seam) installed by a "handyman".  Pretty clean > installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the > roof  on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from > ridge to eaves).  Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers.  > I'm sure he had a great reason for doing so.  So now I have been asked to > install an array on this roof.  You can feel how "soft" the roof is as > you walk on it of course because you are walking on air-below-metal for > most of the roof.  Stringer locations don't jive with possible feet/post > locations for rail.  I'm usually pretty good at problem solving but I'm > accepting ideas.BillFeather River Solar Electric            > Bill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA > Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List > rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update > participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org  > > > > -- Feather River Solar Electric            Bill Battagin, > Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA Lic > 874049www.frenergy.net_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From frenergy at psln.com Sat Jun 10 13:57:07 2017 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 10:57:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <457925232.6261280.1497116462722@mail.yahoo.com> References: <457925232.6261280.1497116462722.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <457925232.6261280.1497116462722@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95379833-3a11-4684-bec3-5680ea5d8101@psln.com> Jerry, Try www.fastenal.com look under "bolts" Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Jun 10 15:38:21 2017 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 15:38:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <2c5260ce8781fe688552dd8f9b7d0d98.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <457925232.6261280.1497116462722.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <457925232.6261280.1497116462722@mail.yahoo.com> <2c5260ce8781fe688552dd8f9b7d0d98.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <20170610193914.893DF10392@che.dreamhost.com> Mudge Fasteners. -----Original Message----- From: "penobscotsolar at midmaine.com" Sent: ‎6/‎10/‎2017 13:52 To: "Jerry Caldwell" ; "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing These guys sell all sizes: https://www.buyrailings.com/product/hanger-bolt-316-stainless-steel-m8-x-2-each-/5368?gdffi=a1d228a0145c40b2b64b7bf62559eafa&gdfms=A2FA3E88DA104CFB950485A2F169884A&keyword=&gclid=CNmksPTrs9QCFQpMDQod7S0LYA Daryl > Dear Wrenches, > Can anyone direct me to a source for stainless hanger bolts without going > through a solar distributor?  I remember around 15 years ago a supplier > up in the Seattle area, but now cannot find them.  Any help is > appreciated. > Cheers,Jerry Caldwell > > On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 6:43 AM, August Goers > wrote: > > > Bill –  So it sounds like you have > a corrugated metal roof installed by a handyman over an existing comp > shingle roof? It might be wise to get your building department > planchecker or inspector involved at this point since it sounds like you > have a potential code violation. Adding PV to an already shotty roof > setup will just compound problems down the line. That said, if you > can’t trust the purlins (or what I think you are referring to as 1” x > 4” stringers) to be structural members, then I suppose you could > install long hanger bolts all the way through the metal roof and into the >  rafters? You could use a double jam-nut setup to mount your racking. > Just an idea, but it is not an ideal situation.  Good luck out > there! Best, August From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 7:47 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Benn, August, etc        > Sorry for omitting a somewhat crucial detail....below these stringers it > is a "standard" residential stacked roof with 2X6 rafters on 16" centers > with 1/2 " plywood deck. No purlins.  I appreciate the feedback/good > ideas.BillFeather River Solar Electric On 4/29/2016 3:28 PM, August Goers > wrote: > Benn, We’ve done it several ways including putting four 14 x 1.5” > TYPE 17 screws per attachment point through the metal and into the 1” x > wood purlin. The key is that the load path all the way down needs to be > capable of handling the worst case loads. So we had to check that too. > Some racking manufactures such as Unirac have online calculators to give > point loads.  Best, August From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn > Kilburn > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 2:17 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing August, et al;If the purlins are > only 1"x4" or 1"x6" or....1"x anything, are you only relying on the 1" > purlin as the attachment point or are you hitting the vertical trusses > below the purlins? We are working on a corrugated roof right now and > using a Schletter roof bracket. The name of it escapes me at the moment. > Maybe FixT?  We are attaching to purlins which are 2"x6".  I wouldn't > think 1"x anything would provide enough pull-out?Benn KilburnSkyFire > Energy Inc. 780-906-7807  > On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:09 AM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Bill, It sounds like you’re talking about a purlin type setup – > 4’ sounds a little far apart but I guess that’s what you have to deal > with. If you have a corrugated metal roof, we’ve used S-5 CurruBrackets > screwed through the metal and into the purlins and then either run the > solar rail up and down the roof or install a sub-rack system (with strut > or angle aluminum) perpendicular to your solar rail.  Best, August >  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 6:55 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Recently, a customer had a metal > roof (not standing seam) installed by a "handyman".  Pretty clean > installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the > roof  on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from > ridge to eaves).  Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers.  > I'm sure he had a great reason for doing so.  So now I have been asked to > install an array on this roof.  You can feel how "soft" the roof is as > you walk on it of course because you are walking on air-below-metal for > most of the roof.  Stringer locations don't jive with possible feet/post > locations for rail.  I'm usually pretty good at problem solving but I'm > accepting ideas.BillFeather River Solar Electric            > Bill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA > Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List > rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update > participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org  > > > > -- Feather River Solar Electric            Bill Battagin, > Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA Lic > 874049www.frenergy.net_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jun 10 17:28:49 2017 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 11:28:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Message-ID: <31x30kba7wxunxb246ss1boc.1497130129940@email.android.com> WrenchesTake a look at Fastenall, thats all they doJerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Burt Date: 6/10/17 9:38 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches , Jerry Caldwell Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Mudge Fasteners.From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sent: ‎6/‎10/‎2017 13:52 To: Jerry Caldwell; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing These guys sell all sizes: https://www.buyrailings.com/product/hanger-bolt-316-stainless-steel-m8-x-2-each-/5368?gdffi=a1d228a0145c40b2b64b7bf62559eafa&gdfms=A2FA3E88DA104CFB950485A2F169884A&keyword=&gclid=CNmksPTrs9QCFQpMDQod7S0LYA Daryl > Dear Wrenches, > Can anyone direct me to a source for stainless hanger bolts without going > through a solar distributor?  I remember around 15 years ago a supplier > up in the Seattle area, but now cannot find them.  Any help is > appreciated. > Cheers,Jerry Caldwell > >     On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 6:43 AM, August Goers > wrote: > > >