[RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Grid neutral

Sat Nov 26 10:32:54 EST 2016

Allen,

Back when people used to read books to learn, at least you had to spend=20
several hours studying something, then you could be 50% an expert. Now=20
with the interwebs, watch only at least the first 20 minutes of a=20
YouTube video and you can have an unshakeable conviction in a new belief=20
as truth.

If you are off grid, what do yo care about the structure of the utility=20
anyway. None of use use "grid" power directly, but always through some=20
form of power transformation.

There is no "flow" of current from the home all the way back to the=20
power plant, only the impression of electromotive force. The electron=20
lighting my lamp now moves only several hundred feet back toward the=20
power plant before after one half of one sixtieth of a second, it flows=20
back away from the power plant, a perpetual prisoner of the copper wire=20
near my home.

The grid is not what it was when Tesla first balanced all the loads in a=20
3-phase system so no current flowed in the neutral. Massive distortion=20
caused by solid state electronic equipment now makes the job of=20
balancing the neutral complex in ways I don't even understand. I would=20
imagine that up-sizing the neutral can only help, but I might be prone=20
to using a impact driver to tighten a 24 gauge wire into a cheap plastic=20
terminal block.

Still, it does make sense to me to make the neutral in a small off-grid=20
power system sized equivalent to the phase conductors to protect against=20
the loss of all countervailing forces that would otherwise reduce the=20
current in the neutral.

Mark

On 11/25/2016 5:27 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
> Wrenches,
> Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing=20
> design support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper,=20
> rare in these parts. He claims that utility current is carried in part=20
> through the ground and in part through a neutral conductor, and such a=20
> "utility neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I pushed back=20
> (see below). Now I just wonder what Wrenches more knowledgeable than I=20
> am will say.
> Thank you,
> Allan
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> allan at sindelarsolar.com <mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 cell*
>
> **
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Date: 	Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700
>
>
> Allan
>
> Happy thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here.
>
> All wet sorry. If you look at the power lines you will see two or=20
> three wires at top of pole and the one smaller one a little ways down=20
> the pole. This is the power station neutral.
>
> The hots bidirectional is an explanation that helps people understand=20
> current but is not totally clear.
>
> Even if you use that visualization in order for the electrons on the=20
> hot to oscillate they heed a path to oscillate into and out of
>
> That is the =E2=80=9Cneutral=E2=80=9D.
>
> Bottom line is from the power station and in your home you have at=20
> least one hot and one neutral.
>
> You can actually use the hot to light up a lite bulb by connecting the=20
> other side of the lite bulb to the earth.
>
> This one way you can get electrocuted.
>
> I touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the current went thru me=20
> and into the earth=E2=80=A6not much fun.
>
> This has been openly publicly discussed and one of the electrical=20
> association advised the power companies to increase the size of the=20
> neutral to solve many issues, such as cows giving less milk and=20
> problems with electric current in homes. The power companies even=20
> openly discuss this.
>
> In *remote rural areas* of Australia, I have seen electricity=20
> distribution using SWER (Single-Wire Earth Return); just one wire is=20
> fed to the property at a high voltage, with the current returning via=20
> the ground.  At the property, a transformer turns the high voltage=20
> into normal residential voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC in=20
> Australia vs 2x115V in some other countries). But this SWER system is=20
> inefficient, and the supply voltage is poorly regulated; it is a rare=20
> exception - it is only done because of the high cost of delivering two=20
> wires in remote areas.
>
> In *metropolitan areas*, you will typically see 4 wires passing down=20
> the street. This consists of three phases of "Active", plus a=20
> "Neutral". You could /imagine/ the Active carrying current "from" the=20
> power grid, and the Neutral carrying the current "back to" the power=20
> grid (even though the current flow is symmetrical).
>
> There is lots of info online if you wish to learn more about this.
>
> Take care, Robert
>
> *From:*Allan Sindelar [mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM
>
> Robert,
> I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility employee, so I may be=20
> all wet here, and if so please dry me off with a straight-up=20
> explanation. But this whole argument seems specious to me, as it=20
> addresses a "grid neutral".
>
> My reasoning is this - there is no such animal as a "grid neutral" in=20
> utility lines, so how is this issue even relevant? The "hots" are=20
> bidirectional; only when the utility power is stepped down at the=20
> transformer at the home is a reference neutral created. To say that=20
> the current "cannot all go back thru the neutral since it is not large=20
> enough BY DESIGN" seems to me an absurd concept since there is no=20
> neutral in utility power distribution.
>
> Am I missing something?
> Allan
>
> On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote:
>
>     Allan
>
>     Here is the info I said I would send:
>     _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DaJOB2FIqUiQ_. Listen about 20
>     minutes at least.
>
>     All current that goes =E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D on the two residential or=
 three
>     commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral
>
>     AND thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru the neutral since
>     it is not large enough  BY DESIGN. So=E2=80=A6. That means we really =
don=E2=80=99t
>     have a clean ground anymore.
>
>     Thank you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with you.
>
>
>
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