[RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Fri Jan 29 16:27:21 EST 2016
Again I haven't tried the Aquion, but when you look at a typical setup=20
with two M110 banks for 1160 AH, that has a peak power of 19.2 kW. This=20
would be 24 of the S30 blocks. That seems like usable surge to me, but=20
maybe I'm missing something? I attached the M110 spec sheet.
It seems that just like with lead acid batteries, you need to keep your=20
normal discharge at a C20 or less. Aou can't operate at low temps, and=20
the inverter needs to be able to handle lower than normal voltages.
We really need some users of the Aquion to comment, as we all know,=20
actual experience on this list trumps the collective speculation.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 1/29/2016 12:45 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
> Dan,
>
> I concur with your basic assessment. After listening to an Aquion=20
> presentation, and reviewing the operating curves, this battery has a=20
> very narrow application.
>
> Most off-grid houses these days have significant surge loads. That is=20
> why we spend so much time and effort making sure our inverter is=20
> properly rated for the worst-case surges. Most batteries are relied=20
> upon, not just for energy storage, which Aquion appears to deliver,=20
> but we also must have significant surge power. Aquion essentially has=20
> no surge capability.
>
> If you have an application where a non-surge inverter will work, then=20
> you might have an Aquion application. Otherwise, stay away from Aquion=20
> until they develop a concept that allows surges.
>
> Think of the Aquion battery like a fuel cell. Fuel cells are=20
> notoriously poor at surges.
>
> Bill.
>
> Bill Brooks, PE
>
> Principal
>
> Brooks Engineering
>
> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20
> *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 10:52 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries
>
> I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and=20
> tripping LVD at only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with=20
> not being able to handle high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did=20
> some math on running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on=20
> Aquions, and it wasn't pretty, but I may not have done the math right.=20
> Very interested to hear personal experience on off-grid homes with=20
> these batteries.
>
> I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower,=20
> repeater tower etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high=20
> charging C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of=20
> -5C, 23 F. That's considered a "heat wave" during certain times of=20
> year in many areas, including here in sunny Colorado. In these=20
> applications the batteries are NOT in a heated room, instead an=20
> outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower.
>
> AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric=20
> installations, and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept=20
> at high SOC. And, cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of=20
> life. The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not adding up for=20
> me on these applications.
>
> My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP=20
> conference last year.
>
> Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar=20
> technologies appreciated here also.
>
> Best regards;
>
>
> Dan Fink
>
> Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute
>
> IREC Certified Instructor=E2=84=A2 for:
>
> ~ PV Installation Professional
>
> ~ Small Wind Installer
>
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>
> NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers=E2=84=A2
> 970.672.4342 <tel:970.672.4342>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems=20
> <larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote:
>
> I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some
> concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that
> conversation:
>
> Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge
> curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I
> can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications
> without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about
> 40% could be used before LVD.
>
> And this:
>
> The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates
> from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42
> volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the
> capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback
> can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the
> full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts.
>
> I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me
> like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid
> environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh?
> BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match
> the first chart I posted.
>
> On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer
> <chris at solarandwindfx.com <mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com>> wrote:
>
> To All,
>
> Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone
> dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I=E2=80=99ve got a couple of
> potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a
> NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I
> wasn=E2=80=99t impressed. Perhaps it=E2=80=99s time to start a new th=
read, =E2=80=9CAquion
> batteries=E2=80=9D.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Christopher
>
> *From:*RE-wrenches
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
> *don at energysolarnow.com
> *Sent:* Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49
> *To:* Dan Fink
> *Cc:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of
> Powerwall Batteries
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan.
>
> I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the
> Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries.
>
> It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the
> genny to kick on each morning even in the summer.
>
> This is even worse in cold winter weather.
>
> Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC
> with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well.
>
> Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share?
>
> Thanks
>
> Don Barch
>
> Energy Solar
>
> don at energysolarnow.com
>
>
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