From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 10:58:59 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 10:58:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) Message-ID: Fellow Wrenches, We recently failed an inspection on a new PV installation We are operating under the 2008 code I have attached a small sketch of our conduit routing to clarify things. Inspectors note post inspection ...provide a photovoltaic disconnecting means per 690.14 (C)(1) During his inspection the inspector was unhappy that we had entered the attic space with the DC source circuits, saying we should have run the conduit across the roof and kept it outside. Since we entered the building we would need to add a DC disconnect in the attic to meet code. My thought is that we fall under the exception listed (690.31(E)) since all source circuit internal to the dwelling are in metallic raceways. I'd like to hear other wrenches chime in on this. Our reason for routing things as we did was to keep the installation aesthetics first class and minimize unsightly conduit runs. Code section follows 690.14 Additional Provisions. Photovoltaic disconnecting means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).690.14 (C) Requirements for Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the photovoltaic system conductors. (1) Location. The photovoltaic disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either on the outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the system conductors. Exception: Installations that comply with 690.31(E) shall be permitted to have the disconnecting means located remote from the point of entry of the system conductors. The photovoltaic system disconnecting means shall not be installed in bathrooms. 690.31 (E) reads as follows (E) Direct-Current Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits Inside a Building. Where direct-current photovoltaic source or output circuits of a utility-interactive inverter from a building-integrated or other photovoltaic system are run inside a building or structure, they shall be contained in metal raceways, or metal enclosures, from the point of penetration of the surface of the building or structure to the first readily accessible disconnecting means. The disconnecting means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D). With Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (cell) 513.766.6025 (office) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DC Source Conduit Run.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 60880 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 12:24:56 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 09:24:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <207B09F5-2000-47CA-AB81-F4DB06883105@gmail.com> Hi Carl, Given that you are using SE equipment. I'm guessing that locking out the DC disco or AC side to shut the array down wasn't an option the inspector wanted? I thought that is one of the reasons for using SE? Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 4, 2016, at 7:58 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > > Fellow Wrenches, > > We recently failed an inspection on a new PV installation > We are operating under the 2008 code > I have attached a small sketch of our conduit routing to clarify things. > > Inspectors note post inspection ...provide a photovoltaic disconnecting means per 690.14 (C)(1) > > During his inspection the inspector was unhappy that we had entered the attic space with the DC source circuits, saying we should have run the conduit across the roof and kept it outside. Since we entered the building we would need to add a DC disconnect in the attic to meet code. My thought is that we fall under the exception listed (690.31(E)) since all source circuit internal to the dwelling are in metallic raceways. I'd like to hear other wrenches chime in on this. > > Our reason for routing things as we did was to keep the installation aesthetics first class and minimize unsightly conduit runs. > > Code section follows > > 690.14 Additional Provisions. Photovoltaic disconnecting > means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).690.14 > > (C) Requirements for Disconnecting Means. Means > shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building > or other structure from the photovoltaic system conductors. > (1) Location. The photovoltaic disconnecting means shall > be installed at a readily accessible location either on the > outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point > of entrance of the system conductors. > Exception: Installations that comply with 690.31(E) shall > be permitted to have the disconnecting means located remote > from the point of entry of the system conductors. > The photovoltaic system disconnecting means shall not > be installed in bathrooms. > > 690.31 (E) reads as follows > (E) Direct-Current Photovoltaic Source and Output > Circuits Inside a Building. Where direct-current photovoltaic > source or output circuits of a utility-interactive inverter > from a building-integrated or other photovoltaic system are > run inside a building or structure, they shall be contained in > metal raceways, or metal enclosures, from the point of penetration > of the surface of the building or structure to the > first readily accessible disconnecting means. The disconnecting > means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D). > > > With Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (cell) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Jan 4 14:04:37 2016 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 14:04:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> You could show them the 2011 or 2014 NEC, both of which clarify this (rather than making a new rule), so the inspector might accept this rational. The numbers are a bit different now in the 2014 code (and there is an error in the referencing, the exception in 690.13 (A) points to 690.31 (F), where it’s actually in 690.31 (G)). But both 2011 and 2014 solve the circular reference issue with the 2008 code. In 2008, the code says (690.14 C 1) a disconnect needs to be at the point of penetration, unless it follows the rule (690.31 E) where DC is installed in metallic conduit, and complies with the first rule (690.14) that requires the disconnect be at the point of penetration, unless it follows the rule (690.31 E)…… round and round we go. Common sense would seem to acknowledge that the exception allows you to locate the disconnect elsewhere, but we have dealt with a few inspectors in the area that feel like they want a disconnect anyway. I think it was a simple fix in those cases, we submitted an objection (with code references) in writing, and just put a disconnect in to close the permit. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 10:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) Fellow Wrenches, We recently failed an inspection on a new PV installation We are operating under the 2008 code I have attached a small sketch of our conduit routing to clarify things. Inspectors note post inspection ...provide a photovoltaic disconnecting means per 690.14 (C)(1) During his inspection the inspector was unhappy that we had entered the attic space with the DC source circuits, saying we should have run the conduit across the roof and kept it outside. Since we entered the building we would need to add a DC disconnect in the attic to meet code. My thought is that we fall under the exception listed (690.31(E)) since all source circuit internal to the dwelling are in metallic raceways. I'd like to hear other wrenches chime in on this. Our reason for routing things as we did was to keep the installation aesthetics first class and minimize unsightly conduit runs. Code section follows 690.14 Additional Provisions. Photovoltaic disconnecting means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).690.14 (C) Requirements for Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the photovoltaic system conductors. (1) Location. The photovoltaic disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either on the outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the system conductors. Exception: Installations that comply with 690.31(E) shall be permitted to have the disconnecting means located remote from the point of entry of the system conductors. The photovoltaic system disconnecting means shall not be installed in bathrooms. 690.31 (E) reads as follows (E) Direct-Current Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits Inside a Building. Where direct-current photovoltaic source or output circuits of a utility-interactive inverter from a building-integrated or other photovoltaic system are run inside a building or structure, they shall be contained in metal raceways, or metal enclosures, from the point of penetration of the surface of the building or structure to the first readily accessible disconnecting means. The disconnecting means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D). With Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (cell) 513.766.6025 (office) _____ No virus found in this message. 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URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jan 4 15:46:15 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 13:46:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) In-Reply-To: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> References: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> Message-ID: <00e501d14730$f511c5c0$df355140$@com> Our inspectors are OK with building entrance (before disconnect) as long as it is metal conduit before it enters the building envelope and is metal conduit all the way to the disconnect on the exterior. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 12:05 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) You could show them the 2011 or 2014 NEC, both of which clarify this (rather than making a new rule), so the inspector might accept this rational. The numbers are a bit different now in the 2014 code (and there is an error in the referencing, the exception in 690.13 (A) points to 690.31 (F), where it’s actually in 690.31 (G)). But both 2011 and 2014 solve the circular reference issue with the 2008 code. In 2008, the code says (690.14 C 1) a disconnect needs to be at the point of penetration, unless it follows the rule (690.31 E) where DC is installed in metallic conduit, and complies with the first rule (690.14) that requires the disconnect be at the point of penetration, unless it follows the rule (690.31 E)…… round and round we go. Common sense would seem to acknowledge that the exception allows you to locate the disconnect elsewhere, but we have dealt with a few inspectors in the area that feel like they want a disconnect anyway. I think it was a simple fix in those cases, we submitted an objection (with code references) in writing, and just put a disconnect in to close the permit. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 10:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) Fellow Wrenches, We recently failed an inspection on a new PV installation We are operating under the 2008 code I have attached a small sketch of our conduit routing to clarify things. Inspectors note post inspection ...provide a photovoltaic disconnecting means per 690.14 (C)(1) During his inspection the inspector was unhappy that we had entered the attic space with the DC source circuits, saying we should have run the conduit across the roof and kept it outside. Since we entered the building we would need to add a DC disconnect in the attic to meet code. My thought is that we fall under the exception listed (690.31(E)) since all source circuit internal to the dwelling are in metallic raceways. I'd like to hear other wrenches chime in on this. Our reason for routing things as we did was to keep the installation aesthetics first class and minimize unsightly conduit runs. Code section follows 690.14 Additional Provisions. Photovoltaic disconnecting means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).690.14 (C) Requirements for Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the photovoltaic system conductors. (1) Location. The photovoltaic disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either on the outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the system conductors. Exception: Installations that comply with 690.31(E) shall be permitted to have the disconnecting means located remote from the point of entry of the system conductors. The photovoltaic system disconnecting means shall not be installed in bathrooms. 690.31 (E) reads as follows (E) Direct-Current Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits Inside a Building. Where direct-current photovoltaic source or output circuits of a utility-interactive inverter from a building-integrated or other photovoltaic system are run inside a building or structure, they shall be contained in metal raceways, or metal enclosures, from the point of penetration of the surface of the building or structure to the first readily accessible disconnecting means. The disconnecting means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D). With Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (cell) 513.766.6025 (office) _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6176 / Virus Database: 4489/11287 - Release Date: 12/30/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 13:47:01 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick Shortell) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 13:47:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Carl, I've moved away from this type of installation since alot of the inspectors in this area just don't like it. I avoid getting into "code confrontations" with them and prefer to impress them rather than depress them. Have you looked at article 110 regarding working clearances? Also I've considered a cut in the insulation of a ungrounded source circuit conductor in grounded metal conduit inside a dwelling. Maybe i'm looking to deeply into it but I'd rather keep source circuit conductors on the exterior of a dwelling. It's hard to back track with the customer when he's been sold on the conduit being hidden and then having to eventually concede to the AHJ. Sometimes having your inspector review your installation plan before you install builds a good solid relationship with him and avoids costly reworking. I'd rather be happy than right. Just Saying Pat On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > Fellow Wrenches, > > We recently failed an inspection on a new PV installation > We are operating under the 2008 code > I have attached a small sketch of our conduit routing to clarify things. > > Inspectors note post inspection ...provide a photovoltaic disconnecting > means per 690.14 (C)(1) > > During his inspection the inspector was unhappy that we had entered the > attic space with the DC source circuits, saying we should have run the > conduit across the roof and kept it outside. Since we entered the building > we would need to add a DC disconnect in the attic to meet code. My thought > is that we fall under the exception listed (690.31(E)) since all source > circuit internal to the dwelling are in metallic raceways. I'd like to > hear other wrenches chime in on this. > > Our reason for routing things as we did was to keep the installation > aesthetics first class and minimize unsightly conduit runs. > > Code section follows > > 690.14 Additional Provisions. Photovoltaic disconnecting > means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).690.14 > > (C) Requirements for Disconnecting Means. Means > shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building > or other structure from the photovoltaic system conductors. > (1) Location. The photovoltaic disconnecting means shall > be installed at a readily accessible location either on the > outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point > of entrance of the system conductors. > Exception: Installations that comply with 690.31(E) shall > be permitted to have the disconnecting means located remote > from the point of entry of the system conductors. > The photovoltaic system disconnecting means shall not > be installed in bathrooms. > > 690.31 (E) reads as follows > (E) Direct-Current Photovoltaic Source and Output > Circuits Inside a Building. Where direct-current photovoltaic > source or output circuits of a utility-interactive inverter > from a building-integrated or other photovoltaic system are > run inside a building or structure, they shall be contained in > metal raceways, or metal enclosures, from the point of penetration > of the surface of the building or structure to the > first readily accessible disconnecting means. The disconnecting > means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D). > > > With Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (cell) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Jan 6 11:41:50 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 11:41:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) In-Reply-To: <00e501d14730$f511c5c0$df355140$@com> References: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> <00e501d14730$f511c5c0$df355140$@com> Message-ID: <568D43CE.8080104@entech-engineering.com> The inspector is missing one of the most often used exceptions for running dc conductors inside buildings. There are many presentations showing this method and many pictures also. On 1/4/2016 3:46 PM, Dana wrote: > > Our inspectors are OK with building entrance (before disconnect) as > long as it is metal conduit _before _it enters the building envelope > and is metal conduit all the way to the disconnect on the exterior. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Daniel Young > *Sent:* Monday, January 04, 2016 12:05 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) > > You could show them the 2011 or 2014 NEC, both of which clarify this > (rather than making a new rule), so the inspector might accept this > rational. The numbers are a bit different now in the 2014 code (and > there is an error in the referencing, the exception in 690.13 (A) > points to 690.31 (F), where it’s actually in 690.31 (G)). But both > 2011 and 2014 solve the circular reference issue with the 2008 code. > > In 2008, the code says (690.14 C 1) a disconnect needs to be at the > point of penetration, unless it follows the rule (690.31 E) where DC > is installed in metallic conduit, and complies with the first rule > (690.14) that requires the disconnect be at the point of penetration, > unless it follows the rule (690.31 E)…… round and round we go. > > Common sense would seem to acknowledge that the exception allows you > to locate the disconnect elsewhere, but we have dealt with a few > inspectors in the area that feel like they want a disconnect anyway. I > think it was a simple fix in those cases, we submitted an objection > (with code references) in writing, and just put a disconnect in to > close the permit. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Carl Adams > *Sent:* Monday, January 04, 2016 10:59 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) > > Fellow Wrenches, > > We recently failed an inspection on a new PV installation > > We are operating under the 2008 code > > I have attached a small sketch of our conduit routing to clarify things. > > Inspectors note post inspection ...provide a photovoltaic > disconnecting means per 690.14 (C)(1) > > During his inspection the inspector was unhappy that we had entered > the attic space with the DC source circuits, saying we should have run > the conduit across the roof and kept it outside. Since we entered the > building we would need to add a DC disconnect in the attic to meet > code. My thought is that we fall under the exception listed > (690.31(E)) since all source circuit internal to the dwelling are in > metallic raceways. I'd like to hear other wrenches chime in on this. > > Our reason for routing things as we did was to keep the installation > aesthetics first class and minimize unsightly conduit runs. > > Code section follows > > 690.14 Additional Provisions. Photovoltaic disconnecting > > means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).690.14 > > (C) Requirements for Disconnecting Means. Means > > shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building > > or other structure from the photovoltaic system conductors. > > (1) Location. The photovoltaic disconnecting means shall > > be installed at a readily accessible location either on the > > outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point > > of entrance of the system conductors. > > Exception: Installations that comply with 690.31(E) shall > > be permitted to have the disconnecting means located remote > > from the point of entry of the system conductors. > > The photovoltaic system disconnecting means shall not > > be installed in bathrooms. > > 690.31 (E) reads as follows > > (E) Direct-Current Photovoltaic Source and Output > > Circuits Inside a Building. Where direct-current photovoltaic > > source or output circuits of a utility-interactive inverter > > from a building-integrated or other photovoltaic system are > > run inside a building or structure, they shall be contained in > > metal raceways, or metal enclosures, from the point of penetration > > of the surface of the building or structure to the > > first readily accessible disconnecting means. The disconnecting > > means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D). > > With Regards > > Carl Adams, President > > SunRock Solar, LLC > > 513.290.9072 (cell) > > 513.766.6025 (office) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6176 / Virus Database: 4489/11287 - Release Date: 12/30/15 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jan 6 11:38:57 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 08:38:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <568D4321.8060207@psln.com> Carl, Pat, I guess I'm somewhere in between. We have /alway/s installed a touchsafe/fused disco on the roof adjacent to the array, no matter how many strings and dive into the attic (if there is one) from there. I don't think I've ever put a disco in the attic, the roof seems more accessible, visible. Why always install a disco on the roof?...just the way I am and have been doing it long before the 2014NEC rapid shutdown (still working with 2011 here). I like the idea of being able to stop power from entering the house envelope. Most times this (getting into the attic) is most sensible here due to snow, as in sliding/creeping snow. Somewhat related: I recently got a call from a new PV-on-the-roof installation, you know that dreaded one: " There's a leak coming from the can light over my sink which is just below the PVs you installed on my roof last month" I went out there that day, climbed into the attic and after looking at all the "evidence" came up with this: Most can lights have the insulation removed from that immediate area so the "can" is exposed to unconditioned attic temps which around here have been in the teens, any moisture from cooking in the kitchen would rise, enter the can and freeze...I came down from the attic armed with my explanation and alas, much pasta had been cooked and then strained in the sink the prior night. By the time I had arrived the dripping had stopped because their turning on the light that morning was enough to melt the frost in the can and produce a few minutes of dripping....enough dripping to call me (I must have been on their speed dial!). Happy New Year all, Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 1/5/2016 10:47 AM, Patrick Shortell wrote: > Hi Carl, > I've moved away from this type of installation since alot of the > inspectors in this area just don't like it. > I avoid getting into "code confrontations" with them and prefer to > impress them rather than depress them. > Have you looked at article 110 regarding working clearances? > Also I've considered a cut in the insulation of a ungrounded source > circuit conductor in grounded metal conduit inside a dwelling. > Maybe i'm looking to deeply into it but I'd rather keep source circuit > conductors on the exterior of a dwelling. > It's hard to back track with the customer when he's been sold on the > conduit being hidden and then having to eventually concede to the AHJ. > Sometimes having your inspector review your installation plan before > you install builds a good solid relationship with him and avoids > costly reworking. > I'd rather be happy than right. > Just Saying > Pat > > On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Carl Adams > wrote: > > Fellow Wrenches, > > We recently failed an inspection on a new PV installation > We are operating under the 2008 code > I have attached a small sketch of our conduit routing to clarify > things. > > Inspectors note post inspection ...provide a photovoltaic > disconnecting means per 690.14 (C)(1) > > During his inspection the inspector was unhappy that we had > entered the attic space with the DC source circuits, saying we > should have run the conduit across the roof and kept it outside. > Since we entered the building we would need to add a DC disconnect > in the attic to meet code. My thought is that we fall under the > exception listed (690.31(E)) since all source circuit internal to > the dwelling are in metallic raceways. I'd like to hear other > wrenches chime in on this. > > Our reason for routing things as we did was to keep the > installation aesthetics first class and minimize unsightly conduit > runs. > > Code section follows > > 690.14 Additional Provisions. Photovoltaic disconnecting > means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).690.14 > > (C) Requirements for Disconnecting Means. Means > shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building > or other structure from the photovoltaic system conductors. > (1) Location. The photovoltaic disconnecting means shall > be installed at a readily accessible location either on the > outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point > of entrance of the system conductors. > Exception: Installations that comply with 690.31(E) shall > be permitted to have the disconnecting means located remote > from the point of entry of the system conductors. > The photovoltaic system disconnecting means shall not > be installed in bathrooms. > > 690.31 (E) reads as follows > (E) Direct-Current Photovoltaic Source and Output > Circuits Inside a Building. Where direct-current photovoltaic > source or output circuits of a utility-interactive inverter > from a building-integrated or other photovoltaic system are > run inside a building or structure, they shall be contained in > metal raceways, or metal enclosures, from the point of penetration > of the surface of the building or structure to the > first readily accessible disconnecting means. The disconnecting > means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D). > > > With Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (cell) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Patrick A. Shortell > /Licensed Master Electrician/ > /Certified Solar Installer/ > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > cell: 516-477-0221 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 12:58:14 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick Shortell) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 12:58:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1) In-Reply-To: <568D4321.8060207@psln.com> References: <568D4321.8060207@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, So Funny I had assumed Carl had placed a disconnect in the attic so i stated the obvious art 110 reference. Ive taken this type of installation to the extreme in this past in a new construction situation. I surrounded emt in 3" of concrete from roof entry to basement. My Opinion, get ready, is that the source circuit disconnect be required to be adjacent to the service entrance disconnect. DC source circuit conductors should remain outside the dwelling until they can meet basically the same requirements as the AC service. Might have a few disagreements there but just gotta keep The Man happy Pat On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 11:38 AM, frenergy wrote: > Carl, Pat, > > I guess I'm somewhere in between. We have *alway*s installed a > touchsafe/fused disco on the roof adjacent to the array, no matter how many > strings and dive into the attic (if there is one) from there. I don't > think I've ever put a disco in the attic, the roof seems more accessible, > visible. Why always install a disco on the roof?...just the way I am and > have been doing it long before the 2014NEC rapid shutdown (still working > with 2011 here). I like the idea of being able to stop power from entering > the house envelope. Most times this (getting into the attic) is most > sensible here due to snow, as in sliding/creeping snow. > > Somewhat related: I recently got a call from a new PV-on-the-roof > installation, you know that dreaded one: " There's a leak coming from the > can light over my sink which is just below the PVs you installed on my roof > last month" I went out there that day, climbed into the attic and after > looking at all the "evidence" came up with this: Most can lights have the > insulation removed from that immediate area so the "can" is exposed to > unconditioned attic temps which around here have been in the teens, any > moisture from cooking in the kitchen would rise, enter the can and > freeze...I came down from the attic armed with my explanation and alas, > much pasta had been cooked and then strained in the sink the prior night. > By the time I had arrived the dripping had stopped because their turning on > the light that morning was enough to melt the frost in the can and produce > a few minutes of dripping....enough dripping to call me (I must have been > on their speed dial!). > > Happy New Year all, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > On 1/5/2016 10:47 AM, Patrick Shortell wrote: > > Hi Carl, > I've moved away from this type of installation since alot of the > inspectors in this area just don't like it. > I avoid getting into "code confrontations" with them and prefer to impress > them rather than depress them. > Have you looked at article 110 regarding working clearances? > Also I've considered a cut in the insulation of a ungrounded source > circuit conductor in grounded metal conduit inside a dwelling. > Maybe i'm looking to deeply into it but I'd rather keep source circuit > conductors on the exterior of a dwelling. > It's hard to back track with the customer when he's been sold on the > conduit being hidden and then having to eventually concede to the AHJ. > Sometimes having your inspector review your installation plan before you > install builds a good solid relationship with him and avoids costly > reworking. > I'd rather be happy than right. > Just Saying > Pat > > On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > >> Fellow Wrenches, >> >> We recently failed an inspection on a new PV installation >> We are operating under the 2008 code >> I have attached a small sketch of our conduit routing to clarify things. >> >> Inspectors note post inspection ...provide a photovoltaic disconnecting >> means per 690.14 (C)(1) >> >> During his inspection the inspector was unhappy that we had entered the >> attic space with the DC source circuits, saying we should have run the >> conduit across the roof and kept it outside. Since we entered the building >> we would need to add a DC disconnect in the attic to meet code. My thought >> is that we fall under the exception listed (690.31(E)) since all source >> circuit internal to the dwelling are in metallic raceways. I'd like to >> hear other wrenches chime in on this. >> >> Our reason for routing things as we did was to keep the installation >> aesthetics first class and minimize unsightly conduit runs. >> >> Code section follows >> >> 690.14 Additional Provisions. Photovoltaic disconnecting >> means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).690.14 >> >> (C) Requirements for Disconnecting Means. Means >> shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building >> or other structure from the photovoltaic system conductors. >> (1) Location. The photovoltaic disconnecting means shall >> be installed at a readily accessible location either on the >> outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point >> of entrance of the system conductors. >> Exception: Installations that comply with 690.31(E) shall >> be permitted to have the disconnecting means located remote >> from the point of entry of the system conductors. >> The photovoltaic system disconnecting means shall not >> be installed in bathrooms. >> >> 690.31 (E) reads as follows >> (E) Direct-Current Photovoltaic Source and Output >> Circuits Inside a Building. Where direct-current photovoltaic >> source or output circuits of a utility-interactive inverter >> from a building-integrated or other photovoltaic system are >> run inside a building or structure, they shall be contained in >> metal raceways, or metal enclosures, from the point of penetration >> of the surface of the building or structure to the >> first readily accessible disconnecting means. The disconnecting >> means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D). >> >> >> With Regards >> Carl Adams, President >> SunRock Solar, LLC >> 513.290.9072 (cell) >> 513.766.6025 (office) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Patrick A. Shortell > *Licensed Master Electrician* > *Certified Solar Installer* > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > cell: 516-477-0221 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Jan 6 16:19:48 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 14:19:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors Message-ID: Wrenches, Of our residential installs, i would guess that at least 80% are done on composite asphalt shingle roofs typically ranging from 13 to 33deg pitch. The rest are made up of various metal roofs, cedar shake, rubber shingles, concrete tile, etc... Obviously, we require roof anchors for fall protection. Rarely do we come across existing homes that have roof anchors already installed. I have typically been using these... hinged roof anchor or these... RA15-1/ Preferably the RA15-1 since it can use screws (#12's) instead of nails and only needs 8 screws compared to the 20 nails for the hinged anchor... ***in order for it to be approved*** ​What are you all using as temporary anchors specifically for asphalt shingle roofs​??? Do any of you prefer to install permanent roof anchors, now that you have just installed a "serviceable" piece of equipment on the roof? What do you use? Benn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 16:29:20 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 13:29:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] demolition hammer drills In-Reply-To: <568D43CE.8080104@entech-engineering.com> References: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> <00e501d14730$f511c5c0$df355140$@com> <568D43CE.8080104@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: HI All, Any recommendations for a demo hammer, and where to get. I don’t use it much, but for digging holes, and installing ground rods. Standard 15 amp 120v unit. thanks jay peltz power From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jan 6 16:52:59 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 14:52:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] demolition hammer drills In-Reply-To: References: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> <00e501d14730$f511c5c0$df355140$@com> <568D43CE.8080104@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <004d01d148cc$9cd30b60$d6792220$@com> Milwaukee SDS Max - Had 1 for 20+ years and you can get a ground rod driver tip & core up to 4" concrete - Great investment! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 2:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] demolition hammer drills HI All, Any recommendations for a demo hammer, and where to get. I don’t use it much, but for digging holes, and installing ground rods. Standard 15 amp 120v unit. thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jan 6 17:27:22 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 14:27:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] demolition hammer drills In-Reply-To: References: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> <00e501d14730$f511c5c0$df355140$@com> <568D43CE.8080104@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <568D94CA.4080607@psln.com> Jay, Several years ago I saw a review on 7-8-9 or so Rotary hammers (accepts SDS, max bits) in the Journal of Light Construction and their top one was the Hitachi DH40MR, so I bought it and have been happy with it. I too thought it was the tool for installing ground rods, they even supplied the "bit" for that purpose. After many drives, I have found that nothing beats a hand held sledge hammer though. I'm glad I got it for the many other things it does beautifully. It came in a hard case that holds many bits...have drilled many 1 1/2" holes in concrete, digs clay/dirt etc great. Living in the bush of NE CA, I usually go to the enemy for specialized tools....Amazon. Bill Taylorsville On 1/6/2016 1:29 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > Any recommendations for a demo hammer, and where to get. > > I don’t use it much, but for digging holes, and installing ground rods. > > Standard 15 amp 120v unit. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 19:56:33 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar .) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 16:56:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] demolition hammer drills In-Reply-To: <568D94CA.4080607@psln.com> References: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> <00e501d14730$f511c5c0$df355140$@com> <568D43CE.8080104@entech-engineering.com> <568D94CA.4080607@psln.com> Message-ID: I purchased one of the larger Makita roto hammers, after the bosch was just too light to drive ground rods, the Makita has NO problem driving a ground rod in most soils. Can't go wrong with Makita, they make the best tools. Mike Nelson MD Electric & Solar On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:27 PM, frenergy wrote: > Jay, > > Several years ago I saw a review on 7-8-9 or so Rotary hammers > (accepts SDS, max bits) in the Journal of Light Construction and their top > one was the Hitachi DH40MR, so I bought it and have been happy with it. I > too thought it was the tool for installing ground rods, they even supplied > the "bit" for that purpose. After many drives, I have found that nothing > beats a hand held sledge hammer though. I'm glad I got it for the many > other things it does beautifully. It came in a hard case that holds many > bits...have drilled many 1 1/2" holes in concrete, digs clay/dirt etc great. > > Living in the bush of NE CA, I usually go to the enemy for > specialized tools....Amazon. > > Bill > Taylorsville > > > > On 1/6/2016 1:29 PM, jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> Any recommendations for a demo hammer, and where to get. >> >> I don’t use it much, but for digging holes, and installing ground rods. >> >> Standard 15 amp 120v unit. >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael & Jessica Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 *We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper waste**please think before you print* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 20:53:42 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 21:53:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] demolition hammer drills In-Reply-To: References: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> <00e501d14730$f511c5c0$df355140$@com> <568D43CE.8080104@entech-engineering.com> <568D94CA.4080607@psln.com> Message-ID: We have a range of hammers from battery to a unit that comes on it's own trolley. You won't have a lot of success driving ground rods with a light weight hammer, the one we like for that is almost too heavy for one person to lift. On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 8:56 PM, MDElectricSolar . wrote: > I purchased one of the larger Makita roto hammers, after the bosch was > just too light to drive ground rods, the Makita has NO problem driving a > ground rod in most soils. Can't go wrong with Makita, they make the best > tools. > Mike Nelson > MD Electric & Solar > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:27 PM, frenergy wrote: > >> Jay, >> >> Several years ago I saw a review on 7-8-9 or so Rotary hammers >> (accepts SDS, max bits) in the Journal of Light Construction and their top >> one was the Hitachi DH40MR, so I bought it and have been happy with it. I >> too thought it was the tool for installing ground rods, they even supplied >> the "bit" for that purpose. After many drives, I have found that nothing >> beats a hand held sledge hammer though. I'm glad I got it for the many >> other things it does beautifully. It came in a hard case that holds many >> bits...have drilled many 1 1/2" holes in concrete, digs clay/dirt etc great. >> >> Living in the bush of NE CA, I usually go to the enemy for >> specialized tools....Amazon. >> >> Bill >> Taylorsville >> >> >> >> On 1/6/2016 1:29 PM, jay wrote: >> >>> HI All, >>> >>> Any recommendations for a demo hammer, and where to get. >>> >>> I don’t use it much, but for digging holes, and installing ground rods. >>> >>> Standard 15 amp 120v unit. >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Michael & Jessica Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-884-1862 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > *We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper > waste**please think before you print* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Thu Jan 7 08:21:36 2016 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 08:21:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] demolition hammer drills In-Reply-To: References: <00c301d14722$c25efc00$471cf400$@com> <00e501d14730$f511c5c0$df355140$@com> <568D43CE.8080104@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I've been happy with my Bosch 11316EVS. It is heavy enough to drive rods and that is what it gets used for mostly. -Matt On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:29 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > Any recommendations for a demo hammer, and where to get. > > I don’t use it much, but for digging holes, and installing ground rods. > > Standard 15 amp 120v unit. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William.White at rgsenergy.com Thu Jan 7 10:53:00 2016 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 15:53:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We use the RA-35 on the link you had below. They work really well because they only take a few screws. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 4:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors Wrenches, Of our residential installs, i would guess that at least 80% are done on composite asphalt shingle roofs typically ranging from 13 to 33deg pitch. The rest are made up of various metal roofs, cedar shake, rubber shingles, concrete tile, etc... Obviously, we require roof anchors for fall protection. Rarely do we come across existing homes that have roof anchors already installed. I have typically been using these... hinged roof anchor or these... RA15-1/ Preferably the RA15-1 since it can use screws (#12's) instead of nails and only needs 8 screws compared to the 20 nails for the hinged anchor... ***in order for it to be approved*** ​What are you all using as temporary anchors specifically for asphalt shingle roofs​??? Do any of you prefer to install permanent roof anchors, now that you have just installed a "serviceable" piece of equipment on the roof? What do you use? Benn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Jan 8 09:59:38 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 09:59:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We use similar anchors. http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M-PPE-Safety-Solutions/Personal-Protective-Equipment/Products/Product-Catalog/~/3M-Reusable-Roof-Anchorage-Device-4000-1-ea-case?N=5158341+8702288+3294529207+4294886062&rt=rud Most shingle roofs we come across have a ridge cap, so we cannot put it over the ridge. We used to use RS-10 permanent anchors. They are fairly easy to install, but we often have arrays going near the peak of the roof, so once modules go on, the anchor gets covered up. We just install the 3M ones on the opposite side of the roof, and then patch the shingles when we are done. On a related note, does anyone have a good product to use on a trapezoidal (agricultural) metal roof? Currently we tie ropes to large trees and/or structural members on the opposite side of the roof. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Will White wrote: > We use the RA-35 on the link you had below. They work really well because > they only take a few screws. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 06, 2016 4:20 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors > > > > Wrenches, > > Of our residential installs, i would guess that at least 80% are done on > composite asphalt shingle roofs typically ranging from 13 to 33deg pitch. > The rest are made up of various metal roofs, cedar shake, rubber shingles, > concrete tile, etc... > > Obviously, we require roof anchors for fall protection. Rarely do we come > across existing homes that have roof anchors already installed. > > I have typically been using these... > hinged roof anchor > > > or these... > RA15-1/ > > > Preferably the RA15-1 since it can use screws (#12's) instead of nails and > only needs 8 screws compared to the 20 nails for the hinged anchor... ***in > order for it to be approved*** > > > > ​What are you all using as temporary anchors specifically for asphalt > shingle roofs​??? > > Do any of you prefer to install permanent roof anchors, now that you have > just installed a "serviceable" piece of equipment on the roof? What do you > use? > > Benn > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jan 8 10:17:05 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 10:17:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160108151719.8ADC668C058@homiemail-a42.g.dreamhost.com> What method do you use to repair the shingles? Thanks, Drake At 09:59 AM 1/8/2016, you wrote: >We use similar anchors. >http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M-PPE-Safety-Solutions/Personal-Protective-Equipment/Products/Product-Catalog/~/3M-Reusable-Roof-Anchorage-Device-4000-1-ea-case?N=5158341+8702288+3294529207+4294886062&rt=rud > >Most shingle roofs we come across have a ridge >cap, so we cannot put it over the ridge. >We used to use RS-10 permanent anchors. They are >fairly easy to install, but we often have arrays >going near the peak of the roof, so once modules >go on, the anchor gets covered up. >We just install the 3M ones on the opposite side >of the roof, and then patch the shingles when we are done. > >On a related note, does anyone have a good >product to use on a trapezoidal (agricultural) metal roof? >Currently we tie ropes to large trees and/or >structural members on the opposite side of the roof. > >Cheers, >Dave > > >-- > >Dave Tedeyan >Project Engineer > >Taitem Engineering, PC >109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >www.taitem.com > >On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Will White ><William.White at rgsenergy.com> wrote: > >We use the RA-35 on the link you had >below. They work really well because they only take a few screws. > > > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn >Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 4:20 PM >To: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors > > > >Wrenches, > >Of our residential installs, i would guess that >at least 80% are done on composite asphalt >shingle roofs typically ranging from 13 to 33deg >pitch. The rest are made up of various metal >roofs, cedar shake, rubber shingles, concrete tile, etc... > >Obviously, we require roof anchors for fall >protection. Rarely do we come across existing >homes that have roof anchors already installed. > >I have typically been using these... >hinged >roof anchor > >or these... >RA15-1/ > > >Preferably the RA15-1 since it can use screws >(#12's) instead of nails and only needs 8 screws >compared to the 20 nails for the hinged >anchor... ***in order for it to be approved*** > > > >​What are you all using as temporary anchors >specifically for asphalt shingle roofs​??? > >Do any of you prefer to install permanent roof >anchors, now that you have just installed a >"serviceable" piece of equipment on the roof? What do you use? > >Benn > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Jan 8 11:02:44 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 11:02:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors In-Reply-To: <20160108151719.8ADC668C058@homiemail-a42.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160108151719.8ADC668C058@homiemail-a42.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: If the customer is very particular, we'll replace the shingle. But most of the time we just put in an aluminum flashing under the shingle. -Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Drake wrote: > What method do you use to repair the shingles? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > At 09:59 AM 1/8/2016, you wrote: > > We use similar anchors. > > http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M-PPE-Safety-Solutions/Personal-Protective-Equipment/Products/Product-Catalog/~/3M-Reusable-Roof-Anchorage-Device-4000-1-ea-case?N=5158341+8702288+3294529207+4294886062&rt=rud > > Most shingle roofs we come across have a ridge cap, so we cannot put it > over the ridge. > We used to use RS-10 permanent anchors. They are fairly easy to install, > but we often have arrays going near the peak of the roof, so once modules > go on, the anchor gets covered up. > We just install the 3M ones on the opposite side of the roof, and then > patch the shingles when we are done. > > On a related note, does anyone have a good product to use on a trapezoidal > (agricultural) metal roof? > Currently we tie ropes to large trees and/or structural members on the > opposite side of the roof. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > > *-- Dave Tedeyan* > Project Engineer > > > *Taitem Engineering, PC *109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Will White < William.White at rgsenergy.com> > wrote: > > We use the RA-35 on the link you had below. They work really well > because they only take a few screws. > >  > > From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 4:20 PM > To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors > >  > > Wrenches, > > Of our residential installs, i would guess that at least 80% are done on > composite asphalt shingle roofs typically ranging from 13 to 33deg pitch. > The rest are made up of various metal roofs, cedar shake, rubber shingles, > concrete tile, etc... > > Obviously, we require roof anchors for fall protection. Rarely do we > come across existing homes that have roof anchors already installed. > > I have typically been using these... > hinged roof anchor > > > or these... > RA15-1/ > > > Preferably the RA15-1 since it can use screws (#12's) instead of nails and > only needs 8 screws compared to the 20 nails for the hinged anchor... ***in > order for it to be approved*** > >  > > ​What are you all using as temporary anchors specifically for asphalt > shingle roofs​??? > > Do any of you prefer to install permanent roof anchors, now that you have > just installed a "serviceable" piece of equipment on the roof? What do > you use? > > Benn > >  > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > This > email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lena at nunatakenergy.com Fri Jan 8 12:07:30 2016 From: lena at nunatakenergy.com (Lena Wilensky) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 10:07:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge Optimizer failures Message-ID: We've had a strange set of recurring failures from one Solaredge install. It's a straightforward 5kw system with 20 x REC 255W modules and P300-5 SE optimizers. System was commissioned in 11/2014 and ran fine for about 6mo. At that time one optimizer failed - gave module short circuit voltage on the optimizer output when disconnected from the rest of the array. Nothing visibly wrong. Rest of the array worked fine. About 3mo later (this past august), 2 more optimizers failed. We gave Solaredge an earful, but they were only willing to send replacements for the 2 newly failed units and 2 spare optimizers for future failures. Same failure apparently with high output voltage from the optimizer when disconnected from the array. They said they had never heard of this happening multiple times and would do an optimizer autopsy. We just had another one fail 2 weeks ago. They apparently tested the 2 failed ones from august and found no water intrusion on the optimizer or connectors. This is all the testing they can do in the US for these potted units. They recently sent the failed units to Israel to test them, but don't expect results for at least 6mo or more. Solaredge claims they've never seen anything like this and so far they have refused to send replacements for the rest of the "good" optimizers in the array claiming that the optimizers may not be the issue. Really? Anyone heard of or seen any "batch" failures of these optimizers? Or have a good contact at Solaredge? I'm about ready to swap in an SMA inverter at this point, and stay away from module level anything from now on. We're going to have to triple our prices to pay for all this warranty work, as Solaredge only gives $25/optimizer and $100/incident to "help" with labor costs. Thanks for any insight.... Lena Wilensky www.nunatakenergy.com 970-349-3432 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 12:16:49 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 12:16:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge Optimizer failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lena, We've been installing the Solar Edge product for a few years now and are experiencing good reliability. I think we have had 2 optimizers which were DOA from the factory. One was completely dead the other had a 25% reduced output. No problems with warranty replacements. With Regards Carl Adams, SunRock Solar On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Lena Wilensky wrote: > We've had a strange set of recurring failures from one Solaredge install. > It's a straightforward 5kw system with 20 x REC 255W modules and P300-5 SE > optimizers. > > System was commissioned in 11/2014 and ran fine for about 6mo. At that > time one optimizer failed - gave module short circuit voltage on the > optimizer output when disconnected from the rest of the array. Nothing > visibly wrong. Rest of the array worked fine. > > About 3mo later (this past august), 2 more optimizers failed. We gave > Solaredge an earful, but they were only willing to send replacements for > the 2 newly failed units and 2 spare optimizers for future failures. Same > failure apparently with high output voltage from the optimizer when > disconnected from the array. They said they had never heard of this > happening multiple times and would do an optimizer autopsy. > > We just had another one fail 2 weeks ago. They apparently tested the 2 > failed ones from august and found no water intrusion on the optimizer or > connectors. This is all the testing they can do in the US for these potted > units. They recently sent the failed units to Israel to test them, but > don't expect results for at least 6mo or more. Solaredge claims they've > never seen anything like this and so far they have refused to send > replacements for the rest of the "good" optimizers in the array claiming > that the optimizers may not be the issue. Really? > > Anyone heard of or seen any "batch" failures of these optimizers? Or have > a good contact at Solaredge? I'm about ready to swap in an SMA inverter at > this point, and stay away from module level anything from now on. We're > going to have to triple our prices to pay for all this warranty work, as > Solaredge only gives $25/optimizer and $100/incident to "help" with labor > costs. > > Thanks for any insight.... > Lena Wilensky > > www.nunatakenergy.com > 970-349-3432 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer: > Cert. #R02907-17 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Fri Jan 8 12:23:17 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 10:23:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: <27CB450A-D684-4C61-B57A-B5D46E138C33@me.com> Message-ID: thanks all for the thoughts. Ended up replacing all breakers and the controller and the problem has gone away. sent the controller back to midnite and came back with no issues so we are assuming it was the breaker. Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 4:44 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > Good tip, and also prompts me to remind that a thermal camera will see a > lot of problems the eye cannot. We have a fluke thermal camera and I make > it a practise to survey a customer's electrical room prior to doing a > proposal, as identifying the overloaded components can help to avoid the > blame game later. It's the old story, you installed solar so you are > responsible for everything that went wrong later. > I did a survey recently for a customer as part of a proposal and with the > camera could see that the middle phase on their 800A main breaker was very > hot, although it carried the lowest current relevant to the others. The > main breaker was clearly faulty and would fail soon. Had we a solar > installation in place, it would have been construed as being because we > back fed the breaker. > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Daniel Duffield wrote: > >> Some years ago, we had a similiar problem with a 50 amp breaker nuisance >> tripping, we over analyzed the problem and still could not prevent this >> erratic issue, sometimes it would work fine for weeks - sometimes days >> apart, sometimes on sunny days, sometimes on cloudy days. >> In the end the answer was simple and so easy it was overlooked more than >> once. >> It was just a matter of the proper torque, with the copper compression >> fitting on a Sq D QO breaker, just a hair breathe too loose, enough heat >> would build over many hours to change the trip curve. >> We measured, swapped breakers, everything you could think off until we >> employed a torque wrench with a screwdriver bit. >> Problem vanished, never to come back. >> Not saying this is answer, but sometimes tightening a compression fitting >> to the correct "feel", by a journeman electrician with 20 years experience, >> is not good enough. If your crew or organization has torque screwdrivers, >> we had no excuse not to use them, and back then we found out the hardway. >> >> Daniel O. Duffield >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2005 >> EE 98 & ER01, Albuquerque, New Mexico, IEEE member 1995 >> DPW Solar (Integration-Division) >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Jan 8 12:39:40 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 10:39:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors In-Reply-To: References: <20160108151719.8ADC668C058@homiemail-a42.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: The aluminum flashing sounds great. I will fill the holes with sealant, re-insert the nails/screws and then cover all the screw heads with sealant and smooth it out. If I can scoop some clean aggregate out of the gutter then I spread it over the smoothed sealant and it blends in so you don't even see the sealant (which is black and barely noticeable from the ground anyway) I wish more homes around here used ridge vent caps. It would limit the number of roof vents spread out across the roof. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Jan 8, 2016, at 9:02 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > If the customer is very particular, we'll replace the shingle. But most of the time we just put in an aluminum flashing under the shingle. > -Dave > > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan > Project Engineer > > Taitem Engineering, PC > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > >> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Drake wrote: >> What method do you use to repair the shingles? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> At 09:59 AM 1/8/2016, you wrote: >>> We use similar anchors. >>> http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M-PPE-Safety-Solutions/Personal-Protective-Equipment/Products/Product-Catalog/~/3M-Reusable-Roof-Anchorage-Device-4000-1-ea-case?N=5158341+8702288+3294529207+4294886062&rt=rud >>> >>> Most shingle roofs we come across have a ridge cap, so we cannot put it over the ridge. >>> We used to use RS-10 permanent anchors. They are fairly easy to install, but we often have arrays going near the peak of the roof, so once modules go on, the anchor gets covered up. >>> We just install the 3M ones on the opposite side of the roof, and then patch the shingles when we are done. >>> >>> On a related note, does anyone have a good product to use on a trapezoidal (agricultural) metal roof? >>> Currently we tie ropes to large trees and/or structural members on the opposite side of the roof. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan >>> Project Engineer >>> >>> Taitem Engineering, PC >>> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >>> www.taitem.com >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Will White < William.White at rgsenergy.com> wrote: >>> >>> We use the RA-35 on the link you had below. They work really well because they only take a few screws. >>> >>>  >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 4:20 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors >>> >>>  >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Of our residential installs, i would guess that at least 80% are done on composite asphalt shingle roofs typically ranging from 13 to 33deg pitch. The rest are made up of various metal roofs, cedar shake, rubber shingles, concrete tile, etc... >>> >>> Obviously, we require roof anchors for fall protection. Rarely do we come across existing homes that have roof anchors already installed. >>> >>> I have typically been using these... >>> hinged roof anchor >>> >>> or these... >>> RA15-1/ >>> >>> Preferably the RA15-1 since it can use screws (#12's) instead of nails and only needs 8 screws compared to the 20 nails for the hinged anchor... ***in order for it to be approved*** >>> >>>  >>> >>> ​What are you all using as temporary anchors specifically for asphalt shingle roofs​??? >>> >>> Do any of you prefer to install permanent roof anchors, now that you have just installed a "serviceable" piece of equipment on the roof? What do you use? >>> >>> Benn >>> >>>  >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. >> www.avast.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Fri Jan 8 12:50:50 2016 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 12:50:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge Optimizer failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004801d14a3d$1cdb2740$569175c0$@com> We’ve had a similar experience as Carl has on this. We have 929 kW of SE up and running (mix of commercial and residential, so roughly 2000 actual optimizers) with only a handful of DOA’s or infant mortalities (total of maybe 10-15 so far). Service is reimbursed just like you say (does not truly cover the cost, unless the job is next door). But it has not happened enough, or in any sort of pattern for us to have gotten riled up about it so far. Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 12:17 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge Optimizer failures Lena, We've been installing the Solar Edge product for a few years now and are experiencing good reliability. I think we have had 2 optimizers which were DOA from the factory. One was completely dead the other had a 25% reduced output. No problems with warranty replacements. With Regards Carl Adams, SunRock Solar On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Lena Wilensky wrote: We've had a strange set of recurring failures from one Solaredge install. It's a straightforward 5kw system with 20 x REC 255W modules and P300-5 SE optimizers. System was commissioned in 11/2014 and ran fine for about 6mo. At that time one optimizer failed - gave module short circuit voltage on the optimizer output when disconnected from the rest of the array. Nothing visibly wrong. Rest of the array worked fine. About 3mo later (this past august), 2 more optimizers failed. We gave Solaredge an earful, but they were only willing to send replacements for the 2 newly failed units and 2 spare optimizers for future failures. Same failure apparently with high output voltage from the optimizer when disconnected from the array. They said they had never heard of this happening multiple times and would do an optimizer autopsy. We just had another one fail 2 weeks ago. They apparently tested the 2 failed ones from august and found no water intrusion on the optimizer or connectors. This is all the testing they can do in the US for these potted units. They recently sent the failed units to Israel to test them, but don't expect results for at least 6mo or more. Solaredge claims they've never seen anything like this and so far they have refused to send replacements for the rest of the "good" optimizers in the array claiming that the optimizers may not be the issue. Really? Anyone heard of or seen any "batch" failures of these optimizers? Or have a good contact at Solaredge? I'm about ready to swap in an SMA inverter at this point, and stay away from module level anything from now on. We're going to have to triple our prices to pay for all this warranty work, as Solaredge only gives $25/optimizer and $100/incident to "help" with labor costs. Thanks for any insight.... Lena Wilensky www.nunatakenergy.com 970-349-3432 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6176 / Virus Database: 4489/11346 - Release Date: 01/07/16 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jan 8 14:46:01 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 14:46:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors In-Reply-To: References: <20160108151719.8ADC668C058@homiemail-a42.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: ​You can also buy roofing granules by the 5 gallon bucket. Keep a few colors in the warehouse and a baggie of each on the truck.​ Three colors are close enough for just about every roof (gray, light brown, reddish brown around here). 6x6 sheets of 28ga aluminum are very handy for this, and they cost next to nothing. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > The aluminum flashing sounds great. > I will fill the holes with sealant, re-insert the nails/screws and then > cover all the screw heads with sealant and smooth it out. > If I can scoop some clean aggregate out of the gutter then I spread it > over the smoothed sealant and it blends in so you don't even see the > sealant (which is black and barely noticeable from the ground anyway) > > I wish more homes around here used ridge vent caps. It would limit the > number of roof vents spread out across the roof. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > On Jan 8, 2016, at 9:02 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > If the customer is very particular, we'll replace the shingle. But most of > the time we just put in an aluminum flashing under the shingle. > -Dave > > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> What method do you use to repair the shingles? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> At 09:59 AM 1/8/2016, you wrote: >> >> We use similar anchors. >> >> http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M-PPE-Safety-Solutions/Personal-Protective-Equipment/Products/Product-Catalog/~/3M-Reusable-Roof-Anchorage-Device-4000-1-ea-case?N=5158341+8702288+3294529207+4294886062&rt=rud >> >> Most shingle roofs we come across have a ridge cap, so we cannot put it >> over the ridge. >> We used to use RS-10 permanent anchors. They are fairly easy to install, >> but we often have arrays going near the peak of the roof, so once modules >> go on, the anchor gets covered up. >> We just install the 3M ones on the opposite side of the roof, and then >> patch the shingles when we are done. >> >> On a related note, does anyone have a good product to use on a >> trapezoidal (agricultural) metal roof? >> Currently we tie ropes to large trees and/or structural members on the >> opposite side of the roof. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> >> >> *-- Dave Tedeyan* >> Project Engineer >> >> >> *Taitem Engineering, PC *109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> www.taitem.com >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Will White < William.White at rgsenergy.com> >> wrote: >> >> We use the RA-35 on the link you had below. They work really well >> because they only take a few screws. >> >>  >> >> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn >> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 4:20 PM >> To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temporary Roof Anchors >> >>  >> >> Wrenches, >> >> Of our residential installs, i would guess that at least 80% are done on >> composite asphalt shingle roofs typically ranging from 13 to 33deg pitch. >> The rest are made up of various metal roofs, cedar shake, rubber shingles, >> concrete tile, etc... >> >> Obviously, we require roof anchors for fall protection. Rarely do we >> come across existing homes that have roof anchors already installed. >> >> I have typically been using these... >> hinged roof anchor >> >> >> or these... >> RA15-1/ >> >> >> Preferably the RA15-1 since it can use screws (#12's) instead of nails >> and only needs 8 screws compared to the 20 nails for the hinged anchor... >> ***in order for it to be approved*** >> >>  >> >> ​What are you all using as temporary anchors specifically for asphalt >> shingle roofs​??? >> >> Do any of you prefer to install permanent roof anchors, now that you have >> just installed a "serviceable" piece of equipment on the roof? What do >> you use? >> >> Benn >> >>  >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> This >> email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Jan 9 20:32:38 2016 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 17:32:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automotive PV Supplies Message-ID: <5691B4B6.4080801@berkeleysolar.com> A buddy of mine is rigging his van with PV and is looking for some help. Can anyone suggest a good website for picking components like wire and fuses etc.? Thanks, Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sat Jan 9 21:51:03 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2016 19:51:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automotive PV Supplies Message-ID: <20160109195103.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8b8f3ff0a1.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 00:08:16 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 19:08:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automotive PV Supplies In-Reply-To: <20160109195103.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8b8f3ff0a1.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20160109195103.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8b8f3ff0a1.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Wrenches This might be more then you need but here is what I did, I have built travel and utility trailers and fitted quite a few motor homes with PV up to 2560 watts on a trailer and over 3 k on a motor home. I feel the most important thing is the connection to what ever it is, motor homes and travel trailers are somewhat difficult due to the wood and or steel framing, utility trailers are easy all steel and exposed, the wiring must be flexible not THWN type wire, we used fine strand PV or USE II wire with strain protection on both the module and the coach end. we also use conduit through out to protect from, well you name it. The batteries must be positioned to maintain weight and balance which and mean service-ability can be tough. I use the 8-D's because they can be handled and are low profile, I have 12 on some rigs, I only use Outback components, combiners, CC's, FX inverters (VFX 3648's) on panels with fuses or breakers mid way in the battery banks mate 3 in the coach and I have done concerts with over 10,000 people in attendance, always worked. Grounding can be an issue, we always have a spooled ground wire and clamp (same as the fuel trucks at airports) I had city electrical inspectors inspect our stuff with no issues. In short, flexible wire, fuse protection, conduit and some form to ground, not so much for your rig as it is for what you are plugged in to. Good luck with the project After Sandy Hit the east coast I was called to see if I would go back to help out, that's how well this can work for all of us Jerry On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 4:51 PM, wrote: > Might be wise to thumb through article 551 & 690 in NFPA 70. That and > maybe 240, 250 & 480. > Good Luck db > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automotive PV Supplies > From: Mark Frye > Date: Sat, January 09, 2016 8:32 pm > To: RE-wrenches > > A buddy of mine is rigging his van with PV and is looking for some help. > > Can anyone suggest a good website for picking components like wire and > fuses etc.? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 22:27:34 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 19:27:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automotive PV Supplies In-Reply-To: <5691B4B6.4080801@berkeleysolar.com> References: <5691B4B6.4080801@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: HI Mark, Backwoods solar has a good selection of battery parts and good tech help. jay peltz power > On Jan 9, 2016, at 5:32 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > A buddy of mine is rigging his van with PV and is looking for some help. > > Can anyone suggest a good website for picking components like wire and fuses etc.? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From reosolar at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 11:37:06 2016 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 09:37:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drawing Programs Message-ID: Hi all, Just wondering what drawing programs you all use (for windows). I have been a happy user of MacDraft for years but have recently switched back over to windows. AutoCAD is way more complex for what I need. All I draw are simple 3 lines for permitting, site plans, and roof layouts. No need for complicated tools, just the ability to draw in scale. Any thoughts? Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin at ecohousesolar.com Mon Jan 11 11:43:31 2016 From: kevin at ecohousesolar.com (Kevin Eigel) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:43:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drawing Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Aaron: We are using Sketch-up, and that works fine for simple or complex drawing. It is easy to use. There is no cost for the basic version. Kevin Eigel Ecohouse Solar On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > Hi all, Just wondering what drawing programs you all use (for windows). > I have been a happy user of MacDraft for years but have recently switched > back over to windows. AutoCAD is way more complex for what I need. All I > draw are simple 3 lines for permitting, site plans, and roof layouts. No > need for complicated tools, just the ability to draw in scale. Any > thoughts? > > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Kevin Eigel President Ecohouse Solar 1857 Northwest Blvd. Ste 201, Columbus, OH 43212 www,ecohousesolar.com 614-805-5776 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Jan 11 11:49:56 2016 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 09:49:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drawing Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aaron - There are a number of cool PV-specific tools that have GIS-aided rendering functionality along with features like shade analysis, production estimation, and automated line diagram and BoM generation. My 2 favorites are Helioscope and Aurora. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 <%28202%29%20486-7507> [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > Hi all, Just wondering what drawing programs you all use (for windows). > I have been a happy user of MacDraft for years but have recently switched > back over to windows. AutoCAD is way more complex for what I need. All I > draw are simple 3 lines for permitting, site plans, and roof layouts. No > need for complicated tools, just the ability to draw in scale. Any > thoughts? > > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35142 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at inspiramental.com Tue Jan 12 07:03:20 2016 From: sam at inspiramental.com (Sam Garber) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 12:03:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drawing Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Friends, I use DraftSight's free version. Sam Garber Sent from my iPhone On Jan 11, 2016, at 11:37 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn > wrote: Hi all, Just wondering what drawing programs you all use (for windows). I have been a happy user of MacDraft for years but have recently switched back over to windows. AutoCAD is way more complex for what I need. All I draw are simple 3 lines for permitting, site plans, and roof layouts. No need for complicated tools, just the ability to draw in scale. Any thoughts? Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jan 12 07:13:21 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 07:13:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drawing Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I second Sketchup, but for line drawings I use the Pro version companion too (Layout). It's the 2D sidekick to Sketchup. I wouldn't buy Pro just for line drawings, but if you have a compelling reason to link 3D and 2D like we do, it makes a lot of sense. Layout line drawing example: [image: Inline image 1] ​Jason Szumlanski ​ On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Kevin Eigel wrote: > HI Aaron: > > We are using Sketch-up, and that works fine for simple or complex drawing. > It is easy to use. > There is no cost for the basic version. > > Kevin Eigel > Ecohouse Solar > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn > wrote: > >> Hi all, Just wondering what drawing programs you all use (for windows). >> I have been a happy user of MacDraft for years but have recently switched >> back over to windows. AutoCAD is way more complex for what I need. All I >> draw are simple 3 lines for permitting, site plans, and roof layouts. No >> need for complicated tools, just the ability to draw in scale. Any >> thoughts? >> >> >> Aaron Mandelkorn >> Owner/Solar Specialist >> Renewable Energy Outfitters >> www.reosolar.com >> www.offgriddepot.biz >> 970-596-3744 >> 719-221-5249 >> reosolar at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Kevin Eigel > President > Ecohouse Solar > 1857 Northwest Blvd. Ste 201, Columbus, OH 43212 > www,ecohousesolar.com > 614-805-5776 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 181148 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Jan 13 13:23:22 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:23:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] fire extinguishers Message-ID: <1452709402.367329502@webmail.finestplanet.com> i am curious if any other wrenches install or recommend fire extinguishers in the equipment room for their installations, particularly for battery based systems. if so, what would be the best kind? dry chemical extinguishers make a hell of a mess. c02 units might be better? thanks, todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jan 13 13:36:38 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 11:36:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fire extinguishers In-Reply-To: <1452709402.367329502@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1452709402.367329502@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <006b01d14e31$575a1320$060e3960$@com> Halon is expensive but will not mess up electronics & is not cheap. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of toddcory at finestplanet.com Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 11:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] fire extinguishers i am curious if any other wrenches install or recommend fire extinguishers in the equipment room for their installations, particularly for battery based systems. if so, what would be the best kind? dry chemical extinguishers make a hell of a mess. c02 units might be better? thanks, todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 14 12:45:08 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 10:45:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fire extinguishers In-Reply-To: <006b01d14e31$575a1320$060e3960$@com> References: <1452709402.367329502@webmail.finestplanet.com> <006b01d14e31$575a1320$060e3960$@com> Message-ID: <5697DEA4.80607@solarray.com> I think I would put in an eye wash station first, followed by a set of cable cutters. The one battery fire I experienced was a quick burn of the hydrogen off of a single cell, lasted a few seconds with very little heat, and extinguished it self. It was the result of a shorted battery cable, so the solution was to cut the cable. Should we a fire extinguisher in with the gas hot water heater? That's an open flame, all the time. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/13/2016 11:36 AM, Dana wrote: > > Halon is expensive but will not mess up electronics & is not cheap. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *toddcory at finestplanet.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 13, 2016 11:23 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] fire extinguishers > > i am curious if any other wrenches install or recommend fire > extinguishers in the equipment room for their installations, > particularly for battery based systems. if so, what would be the best > kind? dry chemical extinguishers make a hell of a mess. c02 units > might be better? > > thanks, > > todd > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 15:13:07 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:13:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fire extinguishers In-Reply-To: <006b01d14e31$575a1320$060e3960$@com> References: <1452709402.367329502@webmail.finestplanet.com> <006b01d14e31$575a1320$060e3960$@com> Message-ID: In my PV/battery training sessions for fire departments, we recommend CO2 extinguishers. Fire departments almost always have at least one; they don't usually carry halon. I leave acid/alkaline electrolyte neutralizer with each battery installation and then just recommend to the homeowner a fire extinguisher and eye wash station. On Jan 13, 2016 12:29 PM, "Dana" wrote: > Halon is expensive but will not mess up electronics & is not cheap. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *toddcory at finestplanet.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 13, 2016 11:23 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] fire extinguishers > > > > i am curious if any other wrenches install or recommend fire extinguishers > in the equipment room for their installations, particularly for battery > based systems. if so, what would be the best kind? dry chemical > extinguishers make a hell of a mess. c02 units might be better? > > > > thanks, > > > > todd > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Jan 14 15:38:57 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:38:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Message-ID: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> Hello, Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don't know what else is out there. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Jan 14 19:37:32 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:37:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <013801d14f2c$ecab9c40$c602d4c0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Hello, Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don't know what else is out there. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 19:58:22 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:58:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <2AE4C20E-CFFA-46D5-85E0-72A84020949C@gmail.com> Hi Kirk, Schneider Conext XW is 120 or 120/240 with dual input SMA SI 120v but has a dual input relay system you can use. These are the only other two I know of that will sell from the battery inverter. > On Jan 14, 2016, at 12:38 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 21:36:10 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (john.blittersdorf at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 21:36:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never has worked right. John Central Vermont Solar & Wind Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: > > My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > Hello, > Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 22:57:08 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 17:57:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> Message-ID: I have had the best luck with OutBack for "off Grid" even if there is grid sometimes, SMA is my #2 but I like DC coupling or AC in most applications but they also have there place. I just am completing a dual radian install and when it came to start up it was up right away without any issues. Jerry On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello, > > Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I > need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have > experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. > Thanks. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Thu Jan 14 23:53:19 2016 From: max at seesolar.com (max at seesolar.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 04:53:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1876399435.4402323.1452833599654.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Schneider.......... Max BalchowskyDesign Engineer Golden Bridge Development1048 Irvine Ave #217Newport Beach, Ca. 92660760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Jerry Shafer To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter I have had the best luck with OutBack for "off Grid" even if there is grid sometimes, SMA is my #2 but I like DC coupling or AC in most applications but they also have there place. I just am completing a dual radian install and when it came to start up it was up right away without any issues. Jerry On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello,Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. Kirk HeranderOwner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016www.vermontsolarnow.comdba Vermont Solar EngineeringNABCEPTM  2003 Inaugural CertificantVT RE Incentive Program Partner802.863.1202     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Fri Jan 15 08:12:47 2016 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Rich Nicol) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:12:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <009c01d14f96$71df18b0$559d4a10$@solartechvt.com> Had Radian failures and typical issues contacting Outback tech support in a reasonable amount of time. (ended up replacing boards on site, just like FX inverters, which is nice rather than sending the unit in) Xantrex XW is massively improved after a rocky past, interconnect box is very spacious and easy to work in, and perhaps most important – tech support to assist with programming etc. has proved to be top notch and readily available when needed. All of this is counter to what our experience was historically with Xantrex but perhaps the Schneider purchase has made a positive impact? RIch From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 9:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never has worked right. John Central Vermont Solar & Wind Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Hello, Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri Jan 15 14:11:38 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:11:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <009c01d14f96$71df18b0$559d4a10$@solartechvt.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <009c01d14f96$71df18b0$559d4a10$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: <02ec01d14fc8$9056dbc0$b1049340$@icloud.com> My initial experience with Radians was not good. I had one of the 4kw modules fail three times on a 8048. Once was the result of a factory wiring error, plain as day when I went to replace it. Module 1 output was wired to module 2 terminals on the AC board and vice-versa. But the communication cables were plugged in correctly (module 1 to jack 1, 2 to jack 2). This caused master/slave programming to get all screwed up. It worked for about 3 weeks before the right combination of commands occurred and it smoked. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Rich Nicol Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 8:13 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Had Radian failures and typical issues contacting Outback tech support in a reasonable amount of time. (ended up replacing boards on site, just like FX inverters, which is nice rather than sending the unit in) Xantrex XW is massively improved after a rocky past, interconnect box is very spacious and easy to work in, and perhaps most important – tech support to assist with programming etc. has proved to be top notch and readily available when needed. All of this is counter to what our experience was historically with Xantrex but perhaps the Schneider purchase has made a positive impact? RIch From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 9:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never has worked right. John Central Vermont Solar & Wind Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Hello, Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Jan 15 14:59:31 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 19:59:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Interesting thread. Our firm wrote off Outback products several years ago for two reasons: 1) beyond abysmal tech support - when we have a problem we need to talk to a skilled, knowledgeable tech, not some kid reading off a script designed for end users; or to sit around for a call back that never happens. 2) ongoing power quality problems when the inverter was in charge mode via generator, some more sensitive loads would not operate, causing customers complaints. Does this still continue with the radians? It is nice to hear that the radians install ok, though luck is not something I like to count on working in the remote bush. I am more interested in Radian installs that were challenging, and was Outback there to expeditiously resolve the issues and have a happy customers? My bias is towards the XW series. Our firm was involved in the design and initial product testing of the XW system. It was a bit rocky at the start, but has been a relatively stable product. The ability to remotely monitor and program a customer's system is a big plus for a lot of our remote clients. The two big complaints I have with the XW is the useless battery capacity meter. I know there is an add on module available now but have not tested that. Customers wonder why I put tape over the capacity indicator lights on a brand new inverter. And the other is long term stability. We find in remote automated unattended hybrid cycle charge sites that the inverter will at least once a year screw up, resolved by a power cycle. So we just make it part of maintenance routines to reboot the systems when we are onsite for planned service. We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but once they are up and running solid with no issues and they take better care of batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sent: January-14-16 6:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never has worked right. John Central Vermont Solar & Wind Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Hello, Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 15:14:52 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 12:14:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <8B3C9C48-EF89-42AA-AA26-5D3E35862911@gmail.com> HI Kevin, I agree that tech support hasn’t been the been the best with OB, I do think its getting better. As to the charger issues. The radian has a generator mode that as long as its within voltage limits will use any frequency or harmonics and take it all out. Amazing. I wrote here some months ago about a radian that ran the house just fine, but with generator not. And the generator by itself not either. But in the generator mode, it was perfect. And its the only inverter out there with this feature I know of. And I’ve also just had to work on a set of new XW+ units. They seem to hit the generator super hard on connection. I had to set the total connection watts to be quite low to make them work. And that was after very long tech support, that was no help at all. I think there just wasn’t anything they could do. The customer is having to install a much larger generator to make his chargers work at higher settings. A few other thoughts about these two inverters. Radian is field repairable, XW not Radian has easy firmware upgrades, XW definitely not Radian has built in WWW access. XW need addition hardware Radian has built in AGS, XW not Mate 3 easier to use than SCP. Now I know this will be a huge argument, but try walking a customer through the AGS on a mate 3 vs SCP Generator mode on radian is amazing. For the XW positives. The XW BOS is large, easy to wire and will handle 3 inverters and 4 CC. I love that box. Vs the GS box which frankly is a joke. So I choose the Radian. its not perfect, but. Jay peltz power > On Jan 15, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Interesting thread. Our firm wrote off Outback products several years ago for two reasons: > > 1) beyond abysmal tech support - when we have a problem we need to talk to a skilled, knowledgeable tech, not some kid reading off a script designed for end users; or to sit around for a call back that never happens. > 2) ongoing power quality problems when the inverter was in charge mode via generator, some more sensitive loads would not operate, causing customers complaints. Does this still continue with the radians? > > It is nice to hear that the radians install ok, though luck is not something I like to count on working in the remote bush. I am more interested in Radian installs that were challenging, and was Outback there to expeditiously resolve the issues and have a happy customers? > > My bias is towards the XW series. Our firm was involved in the design and initial product testing of the XW system. It was a bit rocky at the start, but has been a relatively stable product. The ability to remotely monitor and program a customer's system is a big plus for a lot of our remote clients. > > The two big complaints I have with the XW is the useless battery capacity meter. I know there is an add on module available now but have not tested that. Customers wonder why I put tape over the capacity indicator lights on a brand new inverter. And the other is long term stability. We find in remote automated unattended hybrid cycle charge sites that the inverter will at least once a year screw up, resolved by a power cycle. So we just make it part of maintenance routines to reboot the systems when we are onsite for planned service. > > We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but once they are up and running solid with no issues and they take better care of batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. > > Kevin > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of john.blittersdorf at gmail.com > Sent: January-14-16 6:36 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never has worked right. > > John > Central Vermont Solar & Wind > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: > > My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > Hello, > Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Jan 15 17:08:26 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 22:08:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <8B3C9C48-EF89-42AA-AA26-5D3E35862911@gmail.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <8B3C9C48-EF89-42AA-AA26-5D3E35862911@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6a7bde926ae84acd93946b64cd8aa322@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Jay, Thanks for your information. That generator mode sounds like an excellent feature. I guess it is time to give the Radian an opportunity. re: XW+ generator charging - interesting point as I was recently trying to get an XW+ 6048 to play happily with an under-sized Honda EU6500 generator and after hrs of tweaking was only able to make it successfully connect without overloading the generator when input amps were set to 2/3 of generators rated continual output. It would be nice to have a slower ramp up to 100% charge rate - something they should be able to do via updated firmware if anyone cared. re: XW Power Distribution Panel. I will take credit for that! The first prototype they showed us had these tiny wee little junction boxes reminiscent of DR/SW days that was always lots of fun to cram in several # 6 conductors (ideally when frozen). I lobbied hard for a huge box, and ultimately the end product turned out quite well. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: January-15-16 12:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter HI Kevin, I agree that tech support hasn’t been the been the best with OB, I do think its getting better. As to the charger issues. The radian has a generator mode that as long as its within voltage limits will use any frequency or harmonics and take it all out. Amazing. I wrote here some months ago about a radian that ran the house just fine, but with generator not. And the generator by itself not either. But in the generator mode, it was perfect. And its the only inverter out there with this feature I know of. And I’ve also just had to work on a set of new XW+ units. They seem to hit the generator super hard on connection. I had to set the total connection watts to be quite low to make them work. And that was after very long tech support, that was no help at all. I think there just wasn’t anything they could do. The customer is having to install a much larger generator to make his chargers work at higher settings. A few other thoughts about these two inverters. Radian is field repairable, XW not Radian has easy firmware upgrades, XW definitely not Radian has built in WWW access. XW need addition hardware Radian has built in AGS, XW not Mate 3 easier to use than SCP. Now I know this will be a huge argument, but try walking a customer through the AGS on a mate 3 vs SCP Generator mode on radian is amazing. For the XW positives. The XW BOS is large, easy to wire and will handle 3 inverters and 4 CC. I love that box. Vs the GS box which frankly is a joke. So I choose the Radian. its not perfect, but. Jay peltz power On Jan 15, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: Interesting thread. Our firm wrote off Outback products several years ago for two reasons: 1) beyond abysmal tech support - when we have a problem we need to talk to a skilled, knowledgeable tech, not some kid reading off a script designed for end users; or to sit around for a call back that never happens. 2) ongoing power quality problems when the inverter was in charge mode via generator, some more sensitive loads would not operate, causing customers complaints. Does this still continue with the radians? It is nice to hear that the radians install ok, though luck is not something I like to count on working in the remote bush. I am more interested in Radian installs that were challenging, and was Outback there to expeditiously resolve the issues and have a happy customers? My bias is towards the XW series. Our firm was involved in the design and initial product testing of the XW system. It was a bit rocky at the start, but has been a relatively stable product. The ability to remotely monitor and program a customer's system is a big plus for a lot of our remote clients. The two big complaints I have with the XW is the useless battery capacity meter. I know there is an add on module available now but have not tested that. Customers wonder why I put tape over the capacity indicator lights on a brand new inverter. And the other is long term stability. We find in remote automated unattended hybrid cycle charge sites that the inverter will at least once a year screw up, resolved by a power cycle. So we just make it part of maintenance routines to reboot the systems when we are onsite for planned service. We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but once they are up and running solid with no issues and they take better care of batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sent: January-14-16 6:36 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never has worked right. John Central Vermont Solar & Wind Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Hello, Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Jan 15 17:37:33 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:37:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <6a7bde926ae84acd93946b64cd8aa322@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <8B3C9C48-EF89-42AA-AA26-5D3E35862911@gmail.com> <6a7bde926ae84acd93946b64cd8aa322@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <1452897453.208923997@webmail.finestplanet.com> the old sw inverters had something called "generator support", where if the loads exceeded the generator's output, the inverter would forego charging and sync with, and assist the generator's output. the fx series does not offer this. do the radian, xw or magnum inverters do this? thanks, todd On Friday, January 15, 2016 2:08pm, "Kevin Pegg" said: Hi Jay, Thanks for your information. That generator mode sounds like an excellent feature. I guess it is time to give the Radian an opportunity. re: XW+ generator charging - interesting point as I was recently trying to get an XW+ 6048 to play happily with an under-sized Honda EU6500 generator and after hrs of tweaking was only able to make it successfully connect without overloading the generator when input amps were set to 2/3 of generators rated continual output. It would be nice to have a slower ramp up to 100% charge rate - something they should be able to do via updated firmware if anyone cared. re: XW Power Distribution Panel. I will take credit for that! The first prototype they showed us had these tiny wee little junction boxes reminiscent of DR/SW days that was always lots of fun to cram in several # 6 conductors (ideally when frozen). I lobbied hard for a huge box, and ultimately the end product turned out quite well. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: January-15-16 12:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter HI Kevin, I agree that tech support hasn’t been the been the best with OB, I do think its getting better. As to the charger issues. The radian has a generator mode that as long as its within voltage limits will use any frequency or harmonics and take it all out. Amazing. I wrote here some months ago about a radian that ran the house just fine, but with generator not. And the generator by itself not either. But in the generator mode, it was perfect. And its the only inverter out there with this feature I know of. And I’ve also just had to work on a set of new XW+ units. They seem to hit the generator super hard on connection. I had to set the total connection watts to be quite low to make them work. And that was after very long tech support, that was no help at all. I think there just wasn’t anything they could do. The customer is having to install a much larger generator to make his chargers work at higher settings. A few other thoughts about these two inverters. Radian is field repairable, XW not Radian has easy firmware upgrades, XW definitely not Radian has built in WWW access. XW need addition hardware Radian has built in AGS, XW not Mate 3 easier to use than SCP. Now I know this will be a huge argument, but try walking a customer through the AGS on a mate 3 vs SCP Generator mode on radian is amazing. For the XW positives. The XW BOS is large, easy to wire and will handle 3 inverters and 4 CC. I love that box. Vs the GS box which frankly is a joke. So I choose the Radian. its not perfect, but. Jay peltz power On Jan 15, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Kevin Pegg <[ KPegg at energyalternatives.ca ]( mailto:KPegg at energyalternatives.ca )> wrote: Interesting thread. Our firm wrote off Outback products several years ago for two reasons: 1) beyond abysmal tech support - when we have a problem we need to talk to a skilled, knowledgeable tech, not some kid reading off a script designed for end users; or to sit around for a call back that never happens. 2) ongoing power quality problems when the inverter was in charge mode via generator, some more sensitive loads would not operate, causing customers complaints. Does this still continue with the radians? It is nice to hear that the radians install ok, though luck is not something I like to count on working in the remote bush. I am more interested in Radian installs that were challenging, and was Outback there to expeditiously resolve the issues and have a happy customers? My bias is towards the XW series. Our firm was involved in the design and initial product testing of the XW system. It was a bit rocky at the start, but has been a relatively stable product. The ability to remotely monitor and program a customer's system is a big plus for a lot of our remote clients. The two big complaints I have with the XW is the useless battery capacity meter. I know there is an add on module available now but have not tested that. Customers wonder why I put tape over the capacity indicator lights on a brand new inverter. And the other is long term stability. We find in remote automated unattended hybrid cycle charge sites that the inverter will at least once a year screw up, resolved by a power cycle. So we just make it part of maintenance routines to reboot the systems when we are onsite for planned service. We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but once they are up and running solid with no issues and they take better care of batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [[ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org )] On Behalf Of [ john.blittersdorf at gmail.com ]( mailto:john.blittersdorf at gmail.com ) Sent: January-14-16 6:36 PM To: RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never has worked right. John Central Vermont Solar & Wind Sent from my iPhone On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish <[ peter.parrish at calsolareng.com ]( mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com )> wrote: My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 [ petertor at pobox.com ]( mailto:petertor at pobox.com ) From: RE-wrenches [[ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org )] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Hello, Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 [ www.vermontsolarnow.com ]( x-msg://73/www.vermontsolarnow.com ) dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 17:27:46 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:27:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <6a7bde926ae84acd93946b64cd8aa322@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <8B3C9C48-EF89-42AA-AA26-5D3E35862911@gmail.com> <6a7bde926ae84acd93946b64cd8aa322@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: Hi Kevin, Great job on that box! I don’t understand the issue with small boxes. I think you hit it on the head. For some reason the XW hits really hard when it starts charging. If it was slower it might work better. And because its so damn hard to program those things, even if they come up with a fix, its damn hard to do. The person I had to trouble shoot replaced 2 SW5548 what worked fine on a old water cooled Kohler 14kw. The inverters would charge at max rating. With the new XW, I think we ended up at 1/2 or slightly less on the 6.8XW. The owner had a 25kw diesel that we hooked up and with that we could run the chargers flat out, worked fine. Jay Peltz power > On Jan 15, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > Thanks for your information. That generator mode sounds like an excellent feature. I guess it is time to give the Radian an opportunity. > > re: XW+ generator charging - interesting point as I was recently trying to get an XW+ 6048 to play happily with an under-sized Honda EU6500 generator and after hrs of tweaking was only able to make it successfully connect without overloading the generator when input amps were set to 2/3 of generators rated continual output. It would be nice to have a slower ramp up to 100% charge rate - something they should be able to do via updated firmware if anyone cared. > > re: XW Power Distribution Panel. I will take credit for that! The first prototype they showed us had these tiny wee little junction boxes reminiscent of DR/SW days that was always lots of fun to cram in several # 6 conductors (ideally when frozen). I lobbied hard for a huge box, and ultimately the end product turned out quite well. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay > Sent: January-15-16 12:15 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > HI Kevin, > > I agree that tech support hasn’t been the been the best with OB, I do think its getting better. > > As to the charger issues. The radian has a generator mode that as long as its within voltage limits will use any frequency or harmonics and take it all out. Amazing. I wrote here some months ago about a radian that ran the house just fine, but with generator not. And the generator by itself not either. But in the generator mode, it was perfect. And its the only inverter out there with this feature I know of. > > And I’ve also just had to work on a set of new XW+ units. They seem to hit the generator super hard on connection. I had to set the total connection watts to be quite low to make them work. And that was after very long tech support, that was no help at all. I think there just wasn’t anything they could do. The customer is having to install a much larger generator to make his chargers work at higher settings. > > A few other thoughts about these two inverters. > > Radian is field repairable, XW not > Radian has easy firmware upgrades, XW definitely not > Radian has built in WWW access. XW need addition hardware > Radian has built in AGS, XW not > Mate 3 easier to use than SCP. Now I know this will be a huge argument, but try walking a customer through the AGS on a mate 3 vs SCP > Generator mode on radian is amazing. > > > For the XW positives. The XW BOS is large, easy to wire and will handle 3 inverters and 4 CC. I love that box. > Vs the GS box which frankly is a joke. > > So I choose the Radian. its not perfect, but. > > Jay > > peltz power > > > On Jan 15, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: > > Interesting thread. Our firm wrote off Outback products several years ago for two reasons: > > 1) beyond abysmal tech support - when we have a problem we need to talk to a skilled, knowledgeable tech, not some kid reading off a script designed for end users; or to sit around for a call back that never happens. > 2) ongoing power quality problems when the inverter was in charge mode via generator, some more sensitive loads would not operate, causing customers complaints. Does this still continue with the radians? > > It is nice to hear that the radians install ok, though luck is not something I like to count on working in the remote bush. I am more interested in Radian installs that were challenging, and was Outback there to expeditiously resolve the issues and have a happy customers? > > My bias is towards the XW series. Our firm was involved in the design and initial product testing of the XW system. It was a bit rocky at the start, but has been a relatively stable product. The ability to remotely monitor and program a customer's system is a big plus for a lot of our remote clients. > > The two big complaints I have with the XW is the useless battery capacity meter. I know there is an add on module available now but have not tested that. Customers wonder why I put tape over the capacity indicator lights on a brand new inverter. And the other is long term stability. We find in remote automated unattended hybrid cycle charge sites that the inverter will at least once a year screw up, resolved by a power cycle. So we just make it part of maintenance routines to reboot the systems when we are onsite for planned service. > > We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but once they are up and running solid with no issues and they take better care of batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. > > Kevin > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of john.blittersdorf at gmail.com > Sent: January-14-16 6:36 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never has worked right. > > John > Central Vermont Solar & Wind > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: > > My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > Hello, > Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jan 15 18:06:25 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:06:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <1452897453.208923997@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <8B3C9C48-EF89-42AA-AA26-5D3E35862911@gmail.com> <6a7bde926ae84acd93946b64cd8aa322@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <1452897453.208923997@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Todd, Magnum Energy only has three models that provide generator support modes: the new MSH series. You can program the input current level where the inverter will turn on and sync with the generator input. This is an excellent feature for undersize generators. Transfer is fast and transparent. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 15, 2016, at 3:37 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: the old sw inverters had something called "generator support", where if the loads exceeded the generator's output, the inverter would forego charging and sync with, and assist the generator's output. the fx series does not offer this. do the radian, xw or magnum inverters do this? thanks, todd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 18:29:44 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 19:29:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <6a7bde926ae84acd93946b64cd8aa322@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <8B3C9C48-EF89-42AA-AA26-5D3E35862911@gmail.com> <6a7bde926ae84acd93946b64cd8aa322@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: Portable generators are usually only rated to deliver 60% of their rating continuously. On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Jay, > > > > Thanks for your information. That generator mode sounds like an excellent > feature. I guess it is time to give the Radian an opportunity. > > > > re: XW+ generator charging - interesting point as I was recently trying to > get an XW+ 6048 to play happily with an under-sized Honda EU6500 generator > and after hrs of tweaking was only able to make it successfully connect > without overloading the generator when input amps were set to 2/3 of > generators rated continual output. It would be nice to have a slower ramp > up to 100% charge rate - something they should be able to do via updated > firmware if anyone cared. > > > > re: XW Power Distribution Panel. I will take credit for that! The first > prototype they showed us had these tiny wee little junction boxes > reminiscent of DR/SW days that was always lots of fun to cram in several # > 6 conductors (ideally when frozen). I lobbied hard for a huge box, and > ultimately the end product turned out quite well. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* January-15-16 12:15 PM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > > > HI Kevin, > > > > I agree that tech support hasn’t been the been the best with OB, I do > think its getting better. > > > > As to the charger issues. The radian has a generator mode that as long as > its within voltage limits will use any frequency or harmonics and take it > all out. Amazing. I wrote here some months ago about a radian that ran > the house just fine, but with generator not. And the generator by itself > not either. But in the generator mode, it was perfect. And its the only > inverter out there with this feature I know of. > > > > And I’ve also just had to work on a set of new XW+ units. They seem to hit > the generator super hard on connection. I had to set the total connection > watts to be quite low to make them work. And that was after very long tech > support, that was no help at all. I think there just wasn’t anything they > could do. The customer is having to install a much larger generator to > make his chargers work at higher settings. > > > > A few other thoughts about these two inverters. > > > > Radian is field repairable, XW not > > Radian has easy firmware upgrades, XW definitely not > > Radian has built in WWW access. XW need addition hardware > > Radian has built in AGS, XW not > > Mate 3 easier to use than SCP. Now I know this will be a huge argument, > but try walking a customer through the AGS on a mate 3 vs SCP > > Generator mode on radian is amazing. > > > > > > For the XW positives. The XW BOS is large, easy to wire and will handle 3 > inverters and 4 CC. I love that box. > > Vs the GS box which frankly is a joke. > > > > So I choose the Radian. its not perfect, but. > > > > Jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > On Jan 15, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: > > > > Interesting thread. Our firm wrote off Outback products several years ago > for two reasons: > > > > 1) beyond abysmal tech support - when we have a problem we need to talk to > a skilled, knowledgeable tech, not some kid reading off a script designed > for end users; or to sit around for a call back that never happens. > > 2) ongoing power quality problems when the inverter was in charge mode via > generator, some more sensitive loads would not operate, causing customers > complaints. Does this still continue with the radians? > > > > It is nice to hear that the radians install ok, though luck is not > something I like to count on working in the remote bush. I am more > interested in Radian installs that were challenging, and was Outback there > to expeditiously resolve the issues and have a happy customers? > > > > My bias is towards the XW series. Our firm was involved in the design and > initial product testing of the XW system. It was a bit rocky at the start, > but has been a relatively stable product. The ability to remotely monitor > and program a customer's system is a big plus for a lot of our remote > clients. > > > > The two big complaints I have with the XW is the useless battery capacity > meter. I know there is an add on module available now but have not tested > that. Customers wonder why I put tape over the capacity indicator lights on > a brand new inverter. And the other is long term stability. We find in > remote automated unattended hybrid cycle charge sites that the inverter > will at least once a year screw up, resolved by a power cycle. So we just > make it part of maintenance routines to reboot the systems when we are > onsite for planned service. > > > > We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More > expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but once > they are up and running solid with no issues and they take better care of > batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of * > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com > *Sent:* January-14-16 6:36 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > > > Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good > luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very > time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never > has worked right. > > > > John > > Central Vermont Solar & Wind > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: > > My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > > > Hello, > > Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I > need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have > experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. > Thanks. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 20:27:28 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 17:27:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <1452897453.208923997@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <8B3C9C48-EF89-42AA-AA26-5D3E35862911@gmail.com> <6a7bde926ae84acd93946b64cd8aa322@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <1452897453.208923997@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hi Todd Yes the XW, Radian, FXR versions and the RE version from magnum Have generator support. But that isn't what I was talking about in my last post. Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 15, 2016, at 2:37 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > the old sw inverters had something called "generator support", where if the loads exceeded the generator's output, the inverter would forego charging and sync with, and assist the generator's output. > > the fx series does not offer this. > > do the radian, xw or magnum inverters do this? > > thanks, > > todd > > > > > > > > On Friday, January 15, 2016 2:08pm, "Kevin Pegg" said: > > Hi Jay, > > Thanks for your information. That generator mode sounds like an excellent feature. I guess it is time to give the Radian an opportunity. > > re: XW+ generator charging - interesting point as I was recently trying to get an XW+ 6048 to play happily with an under-sized Honda EU6500 generator and after hrs of tweaking was only able to make it successfully connect without overloading the generator when input amps were set to 2/3 of generators rated continual output. It would be nice to have a slower ramp up to 100% charge rate - something they should be able to do via updated firmware if anyone cared. > > re: XW Power Distribution Panel. I will take credit for that! The first prototype they showed us had these tiny wee little junction boxes reminiscent of DR/SW days that was always lots of fun to cram in several # 6 conductors (ideally when frozen). I lobbied hard for a huge box, and ultimately the end product turned out quite well. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay > Sent: January-15-16 12:15 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > HI Kevin, > > I agree that tech support hasn’t been the been the best with OB, I do think its getting better. > > As to the charger issues. The radian has a generator mode that as long as its within voltage limits will use any frequency or harmonics and take it all out. Amazing. I wrote here some months ago about a radian that ran the house just fine, but with generator not. And the generator by itself not either. But in the generator mode, it was perfect. And its the only inverter out there with this feature I know of. > > And I’ve also just had to work on a set of new XW+ units. They seem to hit the generator super hard on connection. I had to set the total connection watts to be quite low to make them work. And that was after very long tech support, that was no help at all. I think there just wasn’t anything they could do. The customer is having to install a much larger generator to make his chargers work at higher settings. > > A few other thoughts about these two inverters. > > Radian is field repairable, XW not > Radian has easy firmware upgrades, XW definitely not > Radian has built in WWW access. XW need addition hardware > Radian has built in AGS, XW not > Mate 3 easier to use than SCP. Now I know this will be a huge argument, but try walking a customer through the AGS on a mate 3 vs SCP > Generator mode on radian is amazing. > > > For the XW positives. The XW BOS is large, easy to wire and will handle 3 inverters and 4 CC. I love that box. > Vs the GS box which frankly is a joke. > > So I choose the Radian. its not perfect, but. > > Jay > > peltz power > > > On Jan 15, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Interesting thread. Our firm wrote off Outback products several years ago for two reasons: > > 1) beyond abysmal tech support - when we have a problem we need to talk to a skilled, knowledgeable tech, not some kid reading off a script designed for end users; or to sit around for a call back that never happens. > 2) ongoing power quality problems when the inverter was in charge mode via generator, some more sensitive loads would not operate, causing customers complaints. Does this still continue with the radians? > > It is nice to hear that the radians install ok, though luck is not something I like to count on working in the remote bush. I am more interested in Radian installs that were challenging, and was Outback there to expeditiously resolve the issues and have a happy customers? > > My bias is towards the XW series. Our firm was involved in the design and initial product testing of the XW system. It was a bit rocky at the start, but has been a relatively stable product. The ability to remotely monitor and program a customer's system is a big plus for a lot of our remote clients. > > The two big complaints I have with the XW is the useless battery capacity meter. I know there is an add on module available now but have not tested that. Customers wonder why I put tape over the capacity indicator lights on a brand new inverter. And the other is long term stability. We find in remote automated unattended hybrid cycle charge sites that the inverter will at least once a year screw up, resolved by a power cycle. So we just make it part of maintenance routines to reboot the systems when we are onsite for planned service. > > We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but once they are up and running solid with no issues and they take better care of batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. > > Kevin > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of john.blittersdorf at gmail.com > Sent: January-14-16 6:36 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > Kirk, I agree with Peter. I have installed several Radians with good luck. I installed one SI and it worked ok but was more expensive and very time consuming to install. Did one XW and would never do it again. Never has worked right. > > John > Central Vermont Solar & Wind > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 14, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: > > My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter > > Hello, > Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with the OB Radian series but don’t know what else is out there. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Jan 16 10:22:29 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 10:22:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.c a> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <20160116152245.4EF394F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Hi Kevin, Are you talking about the generator charging algorithm or the solar, AC coupled algorithm. I read a post on this list claiming that the AC coupled charging of the SI was just an on / off charge, just on and off like AC coupling with other brands of inverters. I've also read that it does taper charge. Do you know the answer to this? Thanks, Drake At 02:59 PM 1/15/2016, you wrote: >We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More >expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but >once they are up and running solid with no issues and they take >better care of batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 11:16:46 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 08:16:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <20160116152245.4EF394F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <20160116152245.4EF394F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <443E847D-EB62-4473-BA5D-930B7D88C46E@gmail.com> Hi drake, It all depends on how you set it up. With the SI it can be a simple hz shift which causes most GT inverters to reduce power then cut off. Pretty much a on/off type of charging you are describing. When used with a SMA GT inverter and connected in the right way, will taper charge to a pretty small amount. A cat 5 cable is run between the inverters for comm. I don't know if you can use wireless yet. Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 16, 2016, at 7:22 AM, Drake wrote: > > Hi Kevin, > > Are you talking about the generator charging algorithm or the solar, AC coupled algorithm. > > I read a post on this list claiming that the AC coupled charging of the SI was just an on / off charge, just on and off like AC coupling with other brands of inverters. I've also read that it does taper charge. Do you know the answer to this? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > At 02:59 PM 1/15/2016, you wrote: > >> We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but once they are up and running solid with no issues and they take better care of batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Jan 16 12:34:32 2016 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 09:34:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian vs SI - Shunt for SOC Control Message-ID: <569A7F28.5040805@berkeleysolar.com> Folks, I know with both the Radian and the SI you can use an external shunt to support the measurement of KWH and support various SOC controls. But what happens if you don't use an external shunt? I am pretty sure that the Radian does not have an internal shunt to support SOC control. What about with the SI? Does it implement it's SOC controls even without an external shunt? Thanks, Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 12:46:41 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 10:46:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian vs SI - Shunt for SOC Control In-Reply-To: <569A7F28.5040805@berkeleysolar.com> References: <569A7F28.5040805@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark, If all battery power flows in and out of Sunny Island(s) then it will keep track of SOC without a external shunt. I'm not sure how it does it but all the SOC dependent controls work fine in that scenario. The SOC algorithm calculation works much better than any other that I've used. On Jan 16, 2016 1:34 PM, "Mark Frye" wrote: > Folks, > > I know with both the Radian and the SI you can use an external shunt to > support the measurement of KWH and support various SOC controls. > > But what happens if you don't use an external shunt? > > I am pretty sure that the Radian does not have an internal shunt to > support SOC control. > > What about with the SI? Does it implement it's SOC controls even without > an external shunt? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 12:55:40 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 09:55:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian vs SI - Shunt for SOC Control In-Reply-To: <569A7F28.5040805@berkeleysolar.com> References: <569A7F28.5040805@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <0060996E-927C-4F6C-8865-09718B9F9F84@gmail.com> Hi mark, Yes the radian doesn't have an integral shunt. All that information is via external shunts ( 1-3 shunts) and the FNDC Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 16, 2016, at 9:34 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Folks, > > I know with both the Radian and the SI you can use an external shunt to support the measurement of KWH and support various SOC controls. > > But what happens if you don't use an external shunt? > > I am pretty sure that the Radian does not have an internal shunt to support SOC control. > > What about with the SI? Does it implement it's SOC controls even without an external shunt? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net Sat Jan 16 13:30:27 2016 From: Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net (Richard L Ratico) Date: 16 Jan 2016 13:30:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian vs SI - Shunt for SOC Control Message-ID: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> All, I've just updated the inverter firmware (to version 7.302) in an off-grid 120/240 Volt split phase Sunny Island, generator only system I installed in 2007. It's my understanding the Sunny Islands DO need an external shunt if if there are any DC loads or charging sources. I don't have any of those, other than battery vent fans, but installed a shunt anyway to work with a Trimetric. Furthermore, In an off-grid install, the Sunny Islands control Sunny Boy inverters (which are pre-programmed for off-grid use) by frequency shifting alone, no separate communication cable is required. In a grid-tie, battery backup situation, the communication cable IS required, to switch the Sunny Boys from grid tie to off-grid mode, in the event of a grid failure. Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric --- You wrote: Hi Mark, If all battery power flows in and out of Sunny Island(s) then it will keep track of SOC without a external shunt. I'm not sure how it does it but all the SOC dependent controls work fine in that scenario. The SOC algorithm calculation works much better than any other that I've used. On Jan 16, 2016 1:34 PM, "Mark Frye" wrote: > Folks, > > I know with both the Radian and the SI you can use an external shunt to > support the measurement of KWH and support various SOC controls. > > But what happens if you don't use an external shunt? > > I am pretty sure that the Radian does not have an internal shunt to > support SOC control. > > What about with the SI? Does it implement it's SOC controls even without > an external shunt? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > --- end of quote --- From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Sun Jan 17 14:06:41 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 11:06:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: <001501d1515a$343f5f90$9cbe1eb0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering - Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that's about it. I don't know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to "get smart", and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 14:38:06 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 12:38:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have recently bailed out to work for? As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery > backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower > modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. > > > > Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart > energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand > shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh > Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the > performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce > demand charges as well as usage charges. > > > > My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer > residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – > Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t > know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could > Powerwall be a replacement? > > > > Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also > has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? > I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as > opposed to (or in addition to BB). > > > > There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not > clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. > > > > I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, > and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for > future business of this sort. > > > > Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to > exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 > > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Sun Jan 17 17:06:00 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 22:06:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter In-Reply-To: <20160116152245.4EF394F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> References: <007c01d14f0b$986a4170$c93ec450$@icloud.com> <56984718.2a07430a.dde3.ffffcae0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <0de609c26cff4a7cab85593843a1255c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <20160116152245.4EF394F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <521528a34a544545b0255529abc7022f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Drake, I was referring to Generator charging. My understanding is the SI computes the battery recharge efficiency, counts amp hrs removed, and returns the amp hrs removed + the losses through inefficiency. It also has a function that's name escapes me at the moment to have a full complete charge every x cycles, so that in a generator cycle charging application one is not wasting fuel for long absorption stages for every single charge. In our experience same batteries on a SI will last longer than the XW or Magnum - presuming it's mainly a cycle charge application. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: January-16-16 7:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter Hi Kevin, Are you talking about the generator charging algorithm or the solar, AC coupled algorithm. I read a post on this list claiming that the AC coupled charging of the SI was just an on / off charge, just on and off like AC coupling with other brands of inverters. I've also read that it does taper charge. Do you know the answer to this? Thanks, Drake At 02:59 PM 1/15/2016, you wrote: >We use SMA Sunny Island product for larger industrial projects. More >expensive, more difficult to set up, more difficult to program - but >once they are up and running solid with no issues and they take better >care of batteries through a smarter charging algorithm. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Sun Jan 17 19:43:36 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 16:43:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 V/3P & LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they have a “residential” offering? I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and battery back-up, that will do it for this customer. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have recently bailed out to work for? As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 19:52:39 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 16:52:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter identification quiz Message-ID: Hi all Home power, latest issue 171, page 18 Has a photo of an inverter (display only no name)that wasn't doing a good job. Interesting problem, glad it wasn't mine. Anybody know what inverter that is? Thanks Jay From sunengser at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 00:07:42 2016 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 21:07:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter identification quiz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay Eltek Theia HE-t, highest efficiency transformer based inverter..97%..no longer available! Too bad damn good inverter! Bill On Jan 17, 2016 7:37 PM, "Jay" wrote: > Hi all > > Home power, latest issue 171, page 18 > > Has a photo of an inverter (display only no name)that wasn't doing a good > job. Interesting problem, glad it wasn't mine. > > > Anybody know what inverter that is? > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 02:56:28 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 03:56:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <569c5e0f.db10620a.d5240.ffffcd4dSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <569c5e0f.db10620a.d5240.ffffcd4dSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: The Sonnen offering is a rebadged and integrated Outback Radian with all those features. I believe it is 48V. On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 > V/3P & LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they > have a “residential” offering? > > > > I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and > battery back-up, that will do it for this customer. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries > > > > Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have > recently bailed out to work for? > > As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their > presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches > actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works > with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs > also. > > Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the > guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish < > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > > I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery > backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower > modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. > > > > Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart > energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand > shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh > Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the > performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce > demand charges as well as usage charges. > > > > My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer > residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – > Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t > know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could > Powerwall be a replacement? > > > > Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also > has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? > I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as > opposed to (or in addition to BB). > > > > There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not > clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. > > > > I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, > and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for > future business of this sort. > > > > Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to > exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 > > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Jan 18 08:56:05 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 08:56:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian vs SI - Shunt for SOC Control In-Reply-To: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: <6C3CD63B-2C9D-4663-A21D-FFE8CFCFBFA8@swnl.net> the communication cable IS required, to switch the Sunny Boys from grid tie to off-grid mode, in the event of a grid failure. This is true for the older SB U series, while one is able to move the rotary switch on the TL series of inverters. This grid/off grid setting is also able to be adjusted using the SMA service tool. This Off Grid mode set in the SB inverters can only be used when using a SI as now the SI is meeting the anti island mode for any grid tied system. Com cable is used between the SI & the SB for the web box & sunny sensor box. On Jan 16, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Richard L Ratico wrote: > All, > > I've just updated the inverter firmware (to version 7.302) in an off-grid > 120/240 Volt split phase Sunny Island, generator only system I installed in > 2007. It's my understanding the Sunny Islands DO need an external shunt if if > there are any DC loads or charging sources. I don't have any of those, other > than battery vent fans, but installed a shunt anyway to work with a Trimetric. > > Furthermore, In an off-grid install, the Sunny Islands control Sunny Boy > inverters (which are pre-programmed for off-grid use) by frequency shifting > alone, no separate communication cable is required. In a grid-tie, battery > backup situation, the communication cable IS required, to switch the Sunny Boys > from grid tie to off-grid mode, in the event of a grid failure. > > Dick Ratico > Solarwind Electric > > > --- You wrote: > Hi Mark, > > If all battery power flows in and out of Sunny Island(s) then it will keep > track of SOC without a external shunt. I'm not sure how it does it but all > the SOC dependent controls work fine in that scenario. The SOC algorithm > calculation works much better than any other that I've used. > On Jan 16, 2016 1:34 PM, "Mark Frye" wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> I know with both the Radian and the SI you can use an external shunt to >> support the measurement of KWH and support various SOC controls. >> >> But what happens if you don't use an external shunt? >> >> I am pretty sure that the Radian does not have an internal shunt to >> support SOC control. >> >> What about with the SI? Does it implement it's SOC controls even without >> an external shunt? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark Frye >> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems >> > --- end of quote --- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Mon Jan 18 09:43:36 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 09:43:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <"002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish"@calsolareng.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <"002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish"@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> I’m not sure the Powerwall actually exists yet. Our utility, Green mountain Power, has announced a pilot program using them in selected residential applications, but they have no product at this point to my knowledge. And I don’t think SE optimizers are compatible with Sunpower, if not for other reasons using a SMA inverter. Aren’t they unique to the SE inverter only? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 7:44 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 V/3P & LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they have a “residential” offering? I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and battery back-up, that will do it for this customer. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have recently bailed out to work for? As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Jan 18 10:21:41 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 05:21:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <569c5e0f.db10620a.d5240.ffffcd4dSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <002b01d15203$f08e1d40$d1aa57c0$@com> FYI….the Sonnen battery mentioned below is made by Sony. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 9:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries The Sonnen offering is a rebadged and integrated Outback Radian with all those features. I believe it is 48V. On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 V/3P & LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they have a “residential” offering? I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and battery back-up, that will do it for this customer. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have recently bailed out to work for? As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Jan 18 10:27:01 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 05:27:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <"002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish"@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> SE and SunPower are compatible. SunPower has recently started providing SE through their residential dealer channel. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:44 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I’m not sure the Powerwall actually exists yet. Our utility, Green mountain Power, has announced a pilot program using them in selected residential applications, but they have no product at this point to my knowledge. And I don’t think SE optimizers are compatible with Sunpower, if not for other reasons using a SMA inverter. Aren’t they unique to the SE inverter only? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 7:44 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 V/3P & LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they have a “residential” offering? I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and battery back-up, that will do it for this customer. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have recently bailed out to work for? As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7357 / Virus Database: 4489/11401 - Release Date: 01/14/16 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 18 22:35:11 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:35:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <569c5e0f.db10620a.d5240.ffffcd4dSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000001d1526a$71c19ca0$5544d5e0$@sbcglobal.net> I think Solar Edge was bought by SunPower last year so there must be the thought to make them compatible. And that SolarCity had chosen SE as their inverter for the Power Wall. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 1:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries The Sonnen offering is a rebadged and integrated Outback Radian with all those features. I believe it is 48V. On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 V/3P & LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they have a “residential” offering? I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and battery back-up, that will do it for this customer. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have recently bailed out to work for? As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jan 18 21:43:05 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:43:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings Message-ID: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: I have an off-grid customer for whom I replaced a set of 8 Trojan L-16s as well as upgrading her inverter and charge controller. Right after the job, we found several batteries with low specific gravity. We spoke with the local distributor and received two replacement batteries. The system continues to perform poorly. The customer EQs every 30 days to 60 plus volts for 3 hours. They try to get a full bulk and absorption charge in every day but this time of year may not. The specific gravity readings continue to diverge and generally go lower. We contacted the distributor who told us they have had problems with Trojan batteries since the company was sold about two years ago. We were told they had a brand X battery that tested better than the Trojans. We agreed to try the Brand X but then were told that we had not charged the Trojans adequately. Below are the settings recommended directly by Trojan These settings are significantly higher than any I have used before. Also, I don’t recall it being possible to set different bulk and absorption voltages with any of the equipment I use. I use Trace, Outback, Schneider default settings of 57.6 bulk, 54.4 float and reprogram to 60.5 for equalization. I am curious about what charge settings you find successful for flooded lead-acid batteries and what any of you might think about the recommended settings as seen below. Do you feel it is practical to achieve these settings in an off-grid scenario? Would these high settings cause excessive water consumption? Thanks in advance. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 I looked at the spreadsheet and the SG. readings across each battery are uniform which tells be that it is highly unlikely that anything is wrong with the batteries except for being under-charged. Take a look at our User’s Guide on the Trojan website on page 19 ( Recommended Charge Profile) or FLA batteries. The Bulk stage should be @ 59.3V, Absorb @ 58.8V, Float @ 54V and Equalization @ 64.8V. When the User notices drops in the SG such as in this document, an EQ charge should be performed in order to get the batteries back up to full charge (full charge SG being in the range of 1.270 to 1.280. When performing the EQ, the user should take SG reading for a “pilot” battery every 30 minutes until the voltages reach that range. Termination should happen when SG reaches full charge range or if battery temperature reaches 112 degrees F, which-ever comes first. SG readings can be taken during EQ, but you have to make sure that you bump the tiny gas bubbles off the Hydrometer float to prevent erroneous readings. Seeing the SG readings decreasing after each month is an indication that maybe the Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe from 3 hours up to 4 or 5 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Mon Jan 18 23:49:25 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 23:49:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings In-Reply-To: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Those default settings are suited for sealed batteries, not flooded. While each battery manufacturer's charge protocols are somewhat different, I would definitely follow Trojan's recommendations as best possible in this circumstance. Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jan 18, 2016 11:33 PM, "William Miller" wrote: > Colleagues: > > > > I have an off-grid customer for whom I replaced a set of 8 Trojan L-16s as > well as upgrading her inverter and charge controller. Right after the job, > we found several batteries with low specific gravity. We spoke with the > local distributor and received two replacement batteries. > > > > The system continues to perform poorly. The customer EQs every 30 days to > 60 plus volts for 3 hours. They try to get a full bulk and absorption > charge in every day but this time of year may not. The specific gravity > readings continue to diverge and generally go lower. > > > > We contacted the distributor who told us they have had problems with > Trojan batteries since the company was sold about two years ago. We were > told they had a brand X battery that tested better than the Trojans. We > agreed to try the Brand X but then were told that we had not charged the > Trojans adequately. Below are the settings recommended directly by Trojan > > > > These settings are significantly higher than any I have used before. > Also, I don’t recall it being possible to set different bulk and absorption > voltages with any of the equipment I use. I use Trace, Outback, Schneider > default settings of 57.6 bulk, 54.4 float and reprogram to 60.5 for > equalization. > > > > I am curious about what charge settings you find successful for flooded > lead-acid batteries and what any of you might think about the recommended > settings as seen below. Do you feel it is practical to achieve these > settings in an off-grid scenario? Would these high settings cause > excessive water consumption? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > > > I looked at the spreadsheet and the SG. readings across each battery are > uniform which tells be that it is highly unlikely that anything is wrong > with the batteries except for being under-charged. Take a look at our > User’s Guide on the Trojan website on page 19 ( Recommended Charge > Profile) or FLA batteries. > > The Bulk stage should be @ 59.3V, Absorb @ 58.8V, Float @ 54V and > Equalization @ 64.8V. When the User notices drops in the SG such as in this > document, an EQ charge should be performed in order to get the batteries > back up to full charge (full charge SG being in the range of 1.270 to > 1.280. When performing the EQ, the user should take SG reading for a > “pilot” battery every 30 minutes until the voltages reach that range. > Termination should happen when SG reaches full charge range or if battery > temperature reaches 112 degrees F, which-ever comes first. SG readings can > be taken during EQ, but you have to make sure that you bump the tiny gas > bubbles off the Hydrometer float to prevent erroneous readings. > > Seeing the SG readings decreasing after each month is an indication that > maybe the Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe from 3 hours up to 4 or > 5 hours. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Jan 18 23:46:25 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:46:25 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <000001d1526a$71c19ca0$5544d5e0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <569c5e0f.db10620a.d5240.ffffcd4dSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000001d1526a$71c19ca0$5544d5e0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <014d01d15274$5afe8a50$10fb9ef0$@com> SolarEdge was definitely NOT purchased by SunPower. SunPower did, however, purchase SolarBridge out of Texas. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Dorsett Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 5:35 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I think Solar Edge was bought by SunPower last year so there must be the thought to make them compatible. And that SolarCity had chosen SE as their inverter for the Power Wall. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 1:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries The Sonnen offering is a rebadged and integrated Outback Radian with all those features. I believe it is 48V. On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 V/3P & LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they have a “residential” offering? I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and battery back-up, that will do it for this customer. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have recently bailed out to work for? As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From theomaan at yahoo.com Mon Jan 18 23:44:07 2016 From: theomaan at yahoo.com (Theo Van) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 20:44:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings In-Reply-To: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31E31597-27AE-4FD2-92F0-68DF11DFC083@yahoo.com> No "settings recommend by Trojn"were shown. > On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:43 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I have an off-grid customer for whom I replaced a set of 8 Trojan L-16s as well as upgrading her inverter and charge controller. Right after the job, we found several batteries with low specific gravity. We spoke with the local distributor and received two replacement batteries. > > The system continues to perform poorly. The customer EQs every 30 days to 60 plus volts for 3 hours. They try to get a full bulk and absorption charge in every day but this time of year may not. The specific gravity readings continue to diverge and generally go lower. > > We contacted the distributor who told us they have had problems with Trojan batteries since the company was sold about two years ago. We were told they had a brand X battery that tested better than the Trojans. We agreed to try the Brand X but then were told that we had not charged the Trojans adequately. Below are the settings recommended directly by Trojan > > These settings are significantly higher than any I have used before. Also, I don’t recall it being possible to set different bulk and absorption voltages with any of the equipment I use. I use Trace, Outback, Schneider default settings of 57.6 bulk, 54.4 float and reprogram to 60.5 for equalization. > > I am curious about what charge settings you find successful for flooded lead-acid batteries and what any of you might think about the recommended settings as seen below. Do you feel it is practical to achieve these settings in an off-grid scenario? Would these high settings cause excessive water consumption? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > I looked at the spreadsheet and the SG. readings across each battery are uniform which tells be that it is highly unlikely that anything is wrong with the batteries except for being under-charged. Take a look at our User’s Guide on the Trojan website on page 19 ( Recommended Charge Profile) or FLA batteries. > The Bulk stage should be @ 59.3V, Absorb @ 58.8V, Float @ 54V and Equalization @ 64.8V. When the User notices drops in the SG such as in this document, an EQ charge should be performed in order to get the batteries back up to full charge (full charge SG being in the range of 1.270 to 1.280. When performing the EQ, the user should take SG reading for a “pilot” battery every 30 minutes until the voltages reach that range. Termination should happen when SG reaches full charge range or if battery temperature reaches 112 degrees F, which-ever comes first. SG readings can be taken during EQ, but you have to make sure that you bump the tiny gas bubbles off the Hydrometer float to prevent erroneous readings. > Seeing the SG readings decreasing after each month is an indication that maybe the Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe from 3 hours up to 4 or 5 hours. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Jan 19 08:52:42 2016 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:52:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Good Morning Wrenches… I’d like to take the recent Trojan thread to throw this out there! With the IEC certification, many battery manufactures are being forced to recommend higher settings to charge their batteries. The problem with off grid systems, or even some grid back up systems is the settings can/will vary from end user to end user and can be very difficult to determine. Try to avoid setting up a system and assuming that those settings will be good year round as settings in most systems need to adjusted at least twice, sometimes up to three times a year. For example, we are almost finished with IEC testing, the way they do this testing in short is they take a battery, charge it to full using mfg suggested settings, discharge it to 100% and they cycle the battery until it comes to full capacity. Don’t quote me, but IEC testing requires the batteries to come to full charge within the first 8-10 cycles. To do so, you need to be very aggressive on the charging settings. Now, most customers don’t cycle to 100% depth of discharge so end users don’t need to be so aggressive on charger settings, but we will be publishing revised charging parameters and instructions in the coming quarter. Bottom line, Bulk/Absorb Voltages @ 25 Deg C you will be advised to charge the Rolls Batteries at 2.45 to 2.5vpc. This number will vary based on how much the customer is using the system. A weekender cabin with a decent sized array (<10% of C20 Charge Current) will need closer to 2.4 to 2.45vpc, while a full timer (daily heavy cycles) will need a setting closer to the 2.5vpc rating. Remember, regardless of where you are in the world, unless the batteries are installed in a temperature controlled room where it fluctuates less than ½ degree C, you should ALWAYS, ALWAYS use battery temperature compensation. Failure to do so, will always result in premature failure of the batteries. Settings are generally a suggestion, the problem is they (customers) should be looking at the SG’s at least on a quarterly basis and adjusting settings when necessary. Lower trending SG equal higher settings, higher SG equal lower settings. I find that too many people set up settings and forget them, until they have a problem. Normally I find with most customers they should have a bit lower settings from April to Sept, while settings should be higher from Oct thru March. Remember, the battery companies you are dealing with generally don’t have a lot of experience in solar… they are used to industrial applications where you see 8-12 hours of charging every single day. We all know that in most Off grid systems you are lucky to get 3-5 hours, at best of decent charging a day. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:rollsae305d] From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Theo Van Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings No "settings recommend by Trojn"were shown. On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:43 PM, William Miller > wrote: Colleagues: I have an off-grid customer for whom I replaced a set of 8 Trojan L-16s as well as upgrading her inverter and charge controller. Right after the job, we found several batteries with low specific gravity. We spoke with the local distributor and received two replacement batteries. The system continues to perform poorly. The customer EQs every 30 days to 60 plus volts for 3 hours. They try to get a full bulk and absorption charge in every day but this time of year may not. The specific gravity readings continue to diverge and generally go lower. We contacted the distributor who told us they have had problems with Trojan batteries since the company was sold about two years ago. We were told they had a brand X battery that tested better than the Trojans. We agreed to try the Brand X but then were told that we had not charged the Trojans adequately. Below are the settings recommended directly by Trojan These settings are significantly higher than any I have used before. Also, I don’t recall it being possible to set different bulk and absorption voltages with any of the equipment I use. I use Trace, Outback, Schneider default settings of 57.6 bulk, 54.4 float and reprogram to 60.5 for equalization. I am curious about what charge settings you find successful for flooded lead-acid batteries and what any of you might think about the recommended settings as seen below. Do you feel it is practical to achieve these settings in an off-grid scenario? Would these high settings cause excessive water consumption? Thanks in advance. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 I looked at the spreadsheet and the SG. readings across each battery are uniform which tells be that it is highly unlikely that anything is wrong with the batteries except for being under-charged. Take a look at our User’s Guide on the Trojan website on page 19 ( Recommended Charge Profile) or FLA batteries. The Bulk stage should be @ 59.3V, Absorb @ 58.8V, Float @ 54V and Equalization @ 64.8V. When the User notices drops in the SG such as in this document, an EQ charge should be performed in order to get the batteries back up to full charge (full charge SG being in the range of 1.270 to 1.280. When performing the EQ, the user should take SG reading for a “pilot” battery every 30 minutes until the voltages reach that range. Termination should happen when SG reaches full charge range or if battery temperature reaches 112 degrees F, which-ever comes first. SG readings can be taken during EQ, but you have to make sure that you bump the tiny gas bubbles off the Hydrometer float to prevent erroneous readings. Seeing the SG readings decreasing after each month is an indication that maybe the Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe from 3 hours up to 4 or 5 hours. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rollsae305d Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: rollsae305d URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Tue Jan 19 10:06:13 2016 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 10:06:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings In-Reply-To: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <011801d152ca$f076bd40$d16437c0$@com> William, Sounds like the Trojan rep #1 Doesn't know off-grid equipment if they are giving you a different voltage for absorption than the bulk voltage setting. #2 Says that "Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe from 3 hours up to 4 or 5 hours" - that is unrealistic for day to day off-grid PV charging. Sounds like Trojan is covering their butt by telling you to do unrealistic stuff. And "1.270 to 1.280 for SG" is really high and only obtainable if Trojan is loading their new cells with electrolyte that strong (not what they have usually been doing). I vary the settings I program for off-grid systems (and often recommend changing settings for winter vs non-winter pv charging). Typically 29.6/59.2 Bulk-Absorb, 27.2/54.4 Float and 31/62 EQ as a starting point for wet cells. The biggest determinants of success as I see it are: A) high enough Charge Rate of PV to rated storage of batteries. B) regular logging of SG readings, all cells. C) good back-up generator/charger set up and the knowledge of when and how to use it. BTW for those newer to wet cell Lead Acid batteries, manufacturer's can tweak the performance of their deep cycle batteries by varying the strength of the electrolyte - 1.265 has been typical for true deep cycle storage batteries for many years. If you want a battery to have more amp hours of storage and perform well in initial testing then you could increase the strength of the electrolyte to 1.275 or so. BUT these cells will not last as long (all else being equal) because the increased acidity will degrade the plates quicker. I have some German made Hoppecke LA cells in my barn/shop system that were intentionally made with weak electrolyte to enhance the lifetime of the cells. They are 1.240 SG electrolyte. These batteries are 19 years old now and have never given me a peep of trouble. I expect them to last for many more years. Back in the late 80's and early 90's there was an electric car rally/race here in New England (American Tour de Sol) where the early winners gained a competitive advantage by removing about 1/3rd of the electrolyte from their L-16 or T-105 batteries and replaced it with straight sulfuric acid. I don't remember what the SG of this new "Race Mix" was but the racers who did this performance enhancement would typically outperform the field enough to be the top finishers. After a couple of years the word got out and judges spot checked initial SG's to level the playing field. The racers would correct the SG in the batteries after the race and they would sell the batteries at a great discount into the off-grid market. Some of you will remember that Trojan several years ago was selling their new off-grid Industrial batteries with a lower SG mix of about 1.25 as I remember. Good intentions for a long lived battery. BUT the market had trouble dealing with the low SG and Trojan decided they were spending too much time educating dealers and consumers on this issue, so they changed to a higher SG after the first couple of years. If Trojan has gone to a stronger electrolyte now, I think that this is not a good sign and it will lead to their batteries failing sooner. Dave (semi-retired and not minding it, at all) David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 9:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings Colleagues: I have an off-grid customer for whom I replaced a set of 8 Trojan L-16s as well as upgrading her inverter and charge controller. Right after the job, we found several batteries with low specific gravity. We spoke with the local distributor and received two replacement batteries. The system continues to perform poorly. The customer EQs every 30 days to 60 plus volts for 3 hours. They try to get a full bulk and absorption charge in every day but this time of year may not. The specific gravity readings continue to diverge and generally go lower. We contacted the distributor who told us they have had problems with Trojan batteries since the company was sold about two years ago. We were told they had a brand X battery that tested better than the Trojans. We agreed to try the Brand X but then were told that we had not charged the Trojans adequately. Below are the settings recommended directly by Trojan These settings are significantly higher than any I have used before. Also, I don’t recall it being possible to set different bulk and absorption voltages with any of the equipment I use. I use Trace, Outback, Schneider default settings of 57.6 bulk, 54.4 float and reprogram to 60.5 for equalization. I am curious about what charge settings you find successful for flooded lead-acid batteries and what any of you might think about the recommended settings as seen below. Do you feel it is practical to achieve these settings in an off-grid scenario? Would these high settings cause excessive water consumption? Thanks in advance. William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 I looked at the spreadsheet and the SG. readings across each battery are uniform which tells be that it is highly unlikely that anything is wrong with the batteries except for being under-charged. Take a look at our User’s Guide on the Trojan website on page 19 ( Recommended Charge Profile) or FLA batteries. The Bulk stage should be @ 59.3V, Absorb @ 58.8V, Float @ 54V and Equalization @ 64.8V. When the User notices drops in the SG such as in this document, an EQ charge should be performed in order to get the batteries back up to full charge (full charge SG being in the range of 1.270 to 1.280. When performing the EQ, the user should take SG reading for a “pilot” battery every 30 minutes until the voltages reach that range. Termination should happen when SG reaches full charge range or if battery temperature reaches 112 degrees F, which-ever comes first. SG readings can be taken during EQ, but you have to make sure that you bump the tiny gas bubbles off the Hydrometer float to prevent erroneous readings. Seeing the SG readings decreasing after each month is an indication that maybe the Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe from 3 hours up to 4 or 5 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 10:07:14 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 10:07:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: OK Steve now you got me thinking, Some would say that's a bad idea! Using the voltage settings you're speaking of what would you recommend for equalize charging ? I have always thought that different settings for different times of year was logical but you're getting your bulk up you know what I would normally consider to be a low side of the equalization charge. Understood that rolls charge differently than a lot of other batteries I believe it's due to plate density? Thanks, bob ellison > On Jan 19, 2016, at 8:52 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > > Good Morning Wrenches… > > I’d like to take the recent Trojan thread to throw this out there! > > With the IEC certification, many battery manufactures are being forced to recommend higher settings to charge their batteries. The problem with off grid systems, or even some grid back up systems is the settings can/will vary from end user to end user and can be very difficult to determine. Try to avoid setting up a system and assuming that those settings will be good year round as settings in most systems need to adjusted at least twice, sometimes up to three times a year. > > For example, we are almost finished with IEC testing, the way they do this testing in short is they take a battery, charge it to full using mfg suggested settings, discharge it to 100% and they cycle the battery until it comes to full capacity. Don’t quote me, but IEC testing requires the batteries to come to full charge within the first 8-10 cycles. To do so, you need to be very aggressive on the charging settings. > > Now, most customers don’t cycle to 100% depth of discharge so end users don’t need to be so aggressive on charger settings, but we will be publishing revised charging parameters and instructions in the coming quarter. Bottom line, Bulk/Absorb Voltages @ 25 Deg C you will be advised to charge the Rolls Batteries at 2.45 to 2.5vpc. This number will vary based on how much the customer is using the system. A weekender cabin with a decent sized array (<10% of C20 Charge Current) will need closer to 2.4 to 2.45vpc, while a full timer (daily heavy cycles) will need a setting closer to the 2.5vpc rating. > > Remember, regardless of where you are in the world, unless the batteries are installed in a temperature controlled room where it fluctuates less than ½ degree C, you should ALWAYS, ALWAYS use battery temperature compensation. Failure to do so, will always result in premature failure of the batteries. > > Settings are generally a suggestion, the problem is they (customers) should be looking at the SG’s at least on a quarterly basis and adjusting settings when necessary. Lower trending SG equal higher settings, higher SG equal lower settings. I find that too many people set up settings and forget them, until they have a problem. Normally I find with most customers they should have a bit lower settings from April to Sept, while settings should be higher from Oct thru March. > > Remember, the battery companies you are dealing with generally don’t have a lot of experience in solar… they are used to industrial applications where you see 8-12 hours of charging every single day. We all know that in most Off grid systems you are lucky to get 3-5 hours, at best of decent charging a day. > > > > Steve Higgins > Technical Services Manager > P: +1.902.597.4020 > M: +1.206.790.5840 > F: +1.902.597.8447 > Surrette Battery Company > Exclusive manufacturer of > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Theo Van > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:44 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings > > > No "settings recommend by Trojn"were shown. > On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:43 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I have an off-grid customer for whom I replaced a set of 8 Trojan L-16s as well as upgrading her inverter and charge controller. Right after the job, we found several batteries with low specific gravity. We spoke with the local distributor and received two replacement batteries. > > The system continues to perform poorly. The customer EQs every 30 days to 60 plus volts for 3 hours. They try to get a full bulk and absorption charge in every day but this time of year may not. The specific gravity readings continue to diverge and generally go lower. > > We contacted the distributor who told us they have had problems with Trojan batteries since the company was sold about two years ago. We were told they had a brand X battery that tested better than the Trojans. We agreed to try the Brand X but then were told that we had not charged the Trojans adequately. Below are the settings recommended directly by Trojan > > These settings are significantly higher than any I have used before. Also, I don’t recall it being possible to set different bulk and absorption voltages with any of the equipment I use. I use Trace, Outback, Schneider default settings of 57.6 bulk, 54.4 float and reprogram to 60.5 for equalization. > > I am curious about what charge settings you find successful for flooded lead-acid batteries and what any of you might think about the recommended settings as seen below. Do you feel it is practical to achieve these settings in an off-grid scenario? Would these high settings cause excessive water consumption? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > I looked at the spreadsheet and the SG. readings across each battery are uniform which tells be that it is highly unlikely that anything is wrong with the batteries except for being under-charged. Take a look at our User’s Guide on the Trojan website on page 19 ( Recommended Charge Profile) or FLA batteries. > The Bulk stage should be @ 59.3V, Absorb @ 58.8V, Float @ 54V and Equalization @ 64.8V. When the User notices drops in the SG such as in this document, an EQ charge should be performed in order to get the batteries back up to full charge (full charge SG being in the range of 1.270 to 1.280. When performing the EQ, the user should take SG reading for a “pilot” battery every 30 minutes until the voltages reach that range. Termination should happen when SG reaches full charge range or if battery temperature reaches 112 degrees F, which-ever comes first. SG readings can be taken during EQ, but you have to make sure that you bump the tiny gas bubbles off the Hydrometer float to prevent erroneous readings. > Seeing the SG readings decreasing after each month is an indication that maybe the Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe from 3 hours up to 4 or 5 hours. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Jan 19 11:01:51 2016 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:01:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. In-Reply-To: References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF88E7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> The testing that we have done with our batteries, is well over 90% completed has actually increased cycle life and performance even at the higher charging voltages… We are testing at 2.6vpc just for your information, these batteries have actually tested at over 110% capacity. That being said this is also in a lab, where temps are controlled.. In a “real world” situation temperatures are a killer for any manufactures batteries, this is why all systems need a BTS installed. It’s hard to believe how many don’t install them, nor do they install them correctly… As all of you know they should be on the side of the battery, below the level of the plates, this is normally about 1/3 to ½ way down the battery. They should never be on the top. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of RE Ellison Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:07 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. OK Steve now you got me thinking, Some would say that's a bad idea! Using the voltage settings you're speaking of what would you recommend for equalize charging ? I have always thought that different settings for different times of year was logical but you're getting your bulk up you know what I would normally consider to be a low side of the equalization charge. Understood that rolls charge differently than a lot of other batteries I believe it's due to plate density? Thanks, bob ellison On Jan 19, 2016, at 8:52 AM, Steve Higgins > wrote: Good Morning Wrenches… I’d like to take the recent Trojan thread to throw this out there! With the IEC certification, many battery manufactures are being forced to recommend higher settings to charge their batteries. The problem with off grid systems, or even some grid back up systems is the settings can/will vary from end user to end user and can be very difficult to determine. Try to avoid setting up a system and assuming that those settings will be good year round as settings in most systems need to adjusted at least twice, sometimes up to three times a year. For example, we are almost finished with IEC testing, the way they do this testing in short is they take a battery, charge it to full using mfg suggested settings, discharge it to 100% and they cycle the battery until it comes to full capacity. Don’t quote me, but IEC testing requires the batteries to come to full charge within the first 8-10 cycles. To do so, you need to be very aggressive on the charging settings. Now, most customers don’t cycle to 100% depth of discharge so end users don’t need to be so aggressive on charger settings, but we will be publishing revised charging parameters and instructions in the coming quarter. Bottom line, Bulk/Absorb Voltages @ 25 Deg C you will be advised to charge the Rolls Batteries at 2.45 to 2.5vpc. This number will vary based on how much the customer is using the system. A weekender cabin with a decent sized array (<10% of C20 Charge Current) will need closer to 2.4 to 2.45vpc, while a full timer (daily heavy cycles) will need a setting closer to the 2.5vpc rating. Remember, regardless of where you are in the world, unless the batteries are installed in a temperature controlled room where it fluctuates less than ½ degree C, you should ALWAYS, ALWAYS use battery temperature compensation. Failure to do so, will always result in premature failure of the batteries. Settings are generally a suggestion, the problem is they (customers) should be looking at the SG’s at least on a quarterly basis and adjusting settings when necessary. Lower trending SG equal higher settings, higher SG equal lower settings. I find that too many people set up settings and forget them, until they have a problem. Normally I find with most customers they should have a bit lower settings from April to Sept, while settings should be higher from Oct thru March. Remember, the battery companies you are dealing with generally don’t have a lot of experience in solar… they are used to industrial applications where you see 8-12 hours of charging every single day. We all know that in most Off grid systems you are lucky to get 3-5 hours, at best of decent charging a day. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Theo Van Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings No "settings recommend by Trojn"were shown. On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:43 PM, William Miller > wrote: Colleagues: I have an off-grid customer for whom I replaced a set of 8 Trojan L-16s as well as upgrading her inverter and charge controller. Right after the job, we found several batteries with low specific gravity. We spoke with the local distributor and received two replacement batteries. The system continues to perform poorly. The customer EQs every 30 days to 60 plus volts for 3 hours. They try to get a full bulk and absorption charge in every day but this time of year may not. The specific gravity readings continue to diverge and generally go lower. We contacted the distributor who told us they have had problems with Trojan batteries since the company was sold about two years ago. We were told they had a brand X battery that tested better than the Trojans. We agreed to try the Brand X but then were told that we had not charged the Trojans adequately. Below are the settings recommended directly by Trojan These settings are significantly higher than any I have used before. Also, I don’t recall it being possible to set different bulk and absorption voltages with any of the equipment I use. I use Trace, Outback, Schneider default settings of 57.6 bulk, 54.4 float and reprogram to 60.5 for equalization. I am curious about what charge settings you find successful for flooded lead-acid batteries and what any of you might think about the recommended settings as seen below. Do you feel it is practical to achieve these settings in an off-grid scenario? Would these high settings cause excessive water consumption? Thanks in advance. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 I looked at the spreadsheet and the SG. readings across each battery are uniform which tells be that it is highly unlikely that anything is wrong with the batteries except for being under-charged. Take a look at our User’s Guide on the Trojan website on page 19 ( Recommended Charge Profile) or FLA batteries. The Bulk stage should be @ 59.3V, Absorb @ 58.8V, Float @ 54V and Equalization @ 64.8V. When the User notices drops in the SG such as in this document, an EQ charge should be performed in order to get the batteries back up to full charge (full charge SG being in the range of 1.270 to 1.280. When performing the EQ, the user should take SG reading for a “pilot” battery every 30 minutes until the voltages reach that range. Termination should happen when SG reaches full charge range or if battery temperature reaches 112 degrees F, which-ever comes first. SG readings can be taken during EQ, but you have to make sure that you bump the tiny gas bubbles off the Hydrometer float to prevent erroneous readings. Seeing the SG readings decreasing after each month is an indication that maybe the Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe from 3 hours up to 4 or 5 hours. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Jan 19 10:55:28 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 10:55:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <"002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish"@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> Message-ID: <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> SE, both inverter and optimizers are now compatible with Sunpower? Someone also told me Sunpower now makes a negatively grounded panel. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 10:27 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries SE and SunPower are compatible. SunPower has recently started providing SE through their residential dealer channel. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:44 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I’m not sure the Powerwall actually exists yet. Our utility, Green mountain Power, has announced a pilot program using them in selected residential applications, but they have no product at this point to my knowledge. And I don’t think SE optimizers are compatible with Sunpower, if not for other reasons using a SMA inverter. Aren’t they unique to the SE inverter only? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 7:44 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 V/3P & LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they have a “residential” offering? I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and battery back-up, that will do it for this customer. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have recently bailed out to work for? As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7357 / Virus Database: 4489/11401 - Release Date: 01/14/16 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Jan 19 11:07:07 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 06:07:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <"002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish"@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <006c01d152d3$728b1670$57a14350$@com> Since SunPower began using their Maxxeon cells several years ago, the grounded conductor—when there is one—is indeed negative. (No grounded conductor while using TL inverters.) marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 5:55 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries SE, both inverter and optimizers are now compatible with Sunpower? Someone also told me Sunpower now makes a negatively grounded panel. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 10:27 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries SE and SunPower are compatible. SunPower has recently started providing SE through their residential dealer channel. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:44 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I’m not sure the Powerwall actually exists yet. Our utility, Green mountain Power, has announced a pilot program using them in selected residential applications, but they have no product at this point to my knowledge. And I don’t think SE optimizers are compatible with Sunpower, if not for other reasons using a SMA inverter. Aren’t they unique to the SE inverter only? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 7:44 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 V/3P & LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they have a “residential” offering? I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and battery back-up, that will do it for this customer. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have recently bailed out to work for? As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig. And, of course, big $$$$ per kWh of storage. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7357 / Virus Database: 4489/11401 - Release Date: 01/14/16 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7357 / Virus Database: 4522/11436 - Release Date: 01/19/16 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Jan 19 11:42:07 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:42:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF88E7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF88E7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: <569E675F.3090701@psln.com> Steve, Yikes, so to confirm, even on your or anybody's double-walled cells the best BTS location is down the side of the cell. It seems so thermally distance/insulated from the electrolyte and lead which we are all so concerned about protecting. I've said this before, no doubt I'm in the minority but I would be willing to insert a polypropylene encased BTS sensor into a 1/4" hole in the top of a cell, sealed with a viton O-ring. We are talking about some battery packs costing $5,10,20K, I consider it one of my prime services is to insure the best lifecycle of the pack. It seems this arrangement would insure the BTS is doing a much better job of adjusting CC settings. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 11:39:00 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:39:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF88E7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF88E7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: Hi Steve, I'm curious about the temp sensor location. Some OEM's use a bolt on type. How do you find this for accuracy? Thanks Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 19, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > > The testing that we have done with our batteries, is well over 90% completed has actually increased cycle life and performance even at the higher charging voltages… We are testing at 2.6vpc just for your information, these batteries have actually tested at over 110% capacity. That being said this is also in a lab, where temps are controlled.. In a “real world” situation temperatures are a killer for any manufactures batteries, this is why all systems need a BTS installed. It’s hard to believe how many don’t install them, nor do they install them correctly… As all of you know they should be on the side of the battery, below the level of the plates, this is normally about 1/3 to ½ way down the battery. They should never be on the top. > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of RE Ellison > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:07 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. > > OK Steve now you got me thinking, > Some would say that's a bad idea! > > Using the voltage settings you're speaking of what would you recommend for equalize charging ? > > I have always thought that different settings for different times of year was logical but you're getting your bulk up you know what I would normally consider to be a low side of the equalization charge. > > Understood that rolls charge differently than a lot of other batteries I believe it's due to plate density? > > Thanks, > bob ellison > > On Jan 19, 2016, at 8:52 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > > Good Morning Wrenches… > > I’d like to take the recent Trojan thread to throw this out there! > > With the IEC certification, many battery manufactures are being forced to recommend higher settings to charge their batteries. The problem with off grid systems, or even some grid back up systems is the settings can/will vary from end user to end user and can be very difficult to determine. Try to avoid setting up a system and assuming that those settings will be good year round as settings in most systems need to adjusted at least twice, sometimes up to three times a year. > > For example, we are almost finished with IEC testing, the way they do this testing in short is they take a battery, charge it to full using mfg suggested settings, discharge it to 100% and they cycle the battery until it comes to full capacity. Don’t quote me, but IEC testing requires the batteries to come to full charge within the first 8-10 cycles. To do so, you need to be very aggressive on the charging settings. > > Now, most customers don’t cycle to 100% depth of discharge so end users don’t need to be so aggressive on charger settings, but we will be publishing revised charging parameters and instructions in the coming quarter. Bottom line, Bulk/Absorb Voltages @ 25 Deg C you will be advised to charge the Rolls Batteries at 2.45 to 2.5vpc. This number will vary based on how much the customer is using the system. A weekender cabin with a decent sized array (<10% of C20 Charge Current) will need closer to 2.4 to 2.45vpc, while a full timer (daily heavy cycles) will need a setting closer to the 2.5vpc rating. > > Remember, regardless of where you are in the world, unless the batteries are installed in a temperature controlled room where it fluctuates less than ½ degree C, you should ALWAYS, ALWAYS use battery temperature compensation. Failure to do so, will always result in premature failure of the batteries. > > Settings are generally a suggestion, the problem is they (customers) should be looking at the SG’s at least on a quarterly basis and adjusting settings when necessary. Lower trending SG equal higher settings, higher SG equal lower settings. I find that too many people set up settings and forget them, until they have a problem. Normally I find with most customers they should have a bit lower settings from April to Sept, while settings should be higher from Oct thru March. > > Remember, the battery companies you are dealing with generally don’t have a lot of experience in solar… they are used to industrial applications where you see 8-12 hours of charging every single day. We all know that in most Off grid systems you are lucky to get 3-5 hours, at best of decent charging a day. > > > > Steve Higgins > Technical Services Manager > P: +1.902.597.4020 > M: +1.206.790.5840 > F: +1.902.597.8447 > Surrette Battery Company > Exclusive manufacturer of > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Theo Van > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:44 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings > > > No "settings recommend by Trojn"were shown. > On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:43 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I have an off-grid customer for whom I replaced a set of 8 Trojan L-16s as well as upgrading her inverter and charge controller. Right after the job, we found several batteries with low specific gravity. We spoke with the local distributor and received two replacement batteries. > > The system continues to perform poorly. The customer EQs every 30 days to 60 plus volts for 3 hours. They try to get a full bulk and absorption charge in every day but this time of year may not. The specific gravity readings continue to diverge and generally go lower. > > We contacted the distributor who told us they have had problems with Trojan batteries since the company was sold about two years ago. We were told they had a brand X battery that tested better than the Trojans. We agreed to try the Brand X but then were told that we had not charged the Trojans adequately. Below are the settings recommended directly by Trojan > > These settings are significantly higher than any I have used before. Also, I don’t recall it being possible to set different bulk and absorption voltages with any of the equipment I use. I use Trace, Outback, Schneider default settings of 57.6 bulk, 54.4 float and reprogram to 60.5 for equalization. > > I am curious about what charge settings you find successful for flooded lead-acid batteries and what any of you might think about the recommended settings as seen below. Do you feel it is practical to achieve these settings in an off-grid scenario? Would these high settings cause excessive water consumption? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > I looked at the spreadsheet and the SG. readings across each battery are uniform which tells be that it is highly unlikely that anything is wrong with the batteries except for being under-charged. Take a look at our User’s Guide on the Trojan website on page 19 ( Recommended Charge Profile) or FLA batteries. > The Bulk stage should be @ 59.3V, Absorb @ 58.8V, Float @ 54V and Equalization @ 64.8V. When the User notices drops in the SG such as in this document, an EQ charge should be performed in order to get the batteries back up to full charge (full charge SG being in the range of 1.270 to 1.280. When performing the EQ, the user should take SG reading for a “pilot” battery every 30 minutes until the voltages reach that range. Termination should happen when SG reaches full charge range or if battery temperature reaches 112 degrees F, which-ever comes first. SG readings can be taken during EQ, but you have to make sure that you bump the tiny gas bubbles off the Hydrometer float to prevent erroneous readings. > Seeing the SG readings decreasing after each month is an indication that maybe the Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe from 3 hours up to 4 or 5 hours. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Jan 19 11:20:22 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:20:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: <569E6246.6090000@psln.com> Steve, So the message I am getting is even though we are always=20 installing a BTS, seasonal adjustments are still necessary...to both V=20 settings /and absorption times? /Definitely, a major part of my job in=20 off-grid is to assess as best as possible, the customer's system use=20 habits to be able to make the kinds of adjustment to which you speak. =20 I'm always dinking around with these settings because customers=20 'off-grid habits change and I don't fully trust the BTS to accurately do=20 its job in part because there is no perfect place to secure it...the=20 "best" place (the battery terminal?) leaves little space for the sensor,=20 plus its too far from the actual chemical reaction we are trying to=20 sense for accurate CC adjustments. Please shed some light on how to deal with new batteries. My=20 experience is when we install a new set, they were not necessarily of=20 the same batch or age, sometimes I wonder how long they have been in the=20 "transit" chain. I've gotten into the habit of discharging the pack=20 ~50% and adjusting up the absorb voltage and time several times to cook=20 them a little harder (watching temps) than settings 2-3 months down the=20 road. Also, I'm curious when you say:"IEC testing requires the=20 batteries to come to full charge within the first 8-10 cycles" what is=20 their definition of "full charge"?...I can think of a few. Thanks for your continued education on FLA batts. Bill On 1/19/2016 5:52 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > > Good Morning Wrenches=E2=80=A6 > > I=E2=80=99d like to take the recent Trojan thread to throw this out there! > > With the IEC certification, many battery manufactures are being forced=20 > to recommend higher settings to charge their batteries. The problem=20 > with off grid systems, or even some grid back up systems is the=20 > settings can/will vary from end user to end user and can be very=20 > difficult to determine. Try to avoid setting up a system and=20 > assuming that those settings will be good year round as settings in=20 > most systems need to adjusted at least twice, sometimes up to three=20 > times a year. > > For example, we are almost finished with IEC testing, the way they do=20 > this testing in short is they take a battery, charge it to full using=20 > mfg suggested settings, discharge it to 100% and they cycle the=20 > battery until it comes to full capacity. Don=E2=80=99t quote me, but I= EC=20 > testing requires the batteries to come to full charge within the first=20 > 8-10 cycles. To do so, you need to be very aggressive on the=20 > charging settings. > > Now, most customers don=E2=80=99t cycle to 100% depth of discharge so end= =20 > users don=E2=80=99t need to be so aggressive on charger settings, but we = will=20 > be publishing revised charging parameters and instructions in the=20 > coming quarter. Bottom line, Bulk/Absorb Voltages @ 25 Deg C you=20 > will be advised to charge the Rolls Batteries at 2.45 to 2.5vpc. This=20 > number will vary based on how much the customer is using the system. =20 > A weekender cabin with a decent sized array (<10% of C20 Charge=20 > Current) will need closer to 2.4 to 2.45vpc, while a full timer (daily=20 > heavy cycles) will need a setting closer to the 2.5vpc rating. > > Remember, regardless of where you are in the world, unless the=20 > batteries are installed in a temperature controlled room where it=20 > fluctuates less than =C2=BD degree C, you should ALWAYS, ALWAYS use=20 > battery temperature compensation. Failure to do so, will always=20 > result in premature failure of the batteries. > > Settings are generally a suggestion, the problem is they (customers)=20 > should be looking at the SG=E2=80=99s at least on a quarterly basis and=20 > adjusting settings when necessary. Lower trending SG equal higher=20 > settings, higher SG equal lower settings. I find that too many people=20 > set up settings and forget them, until they have a problem. Normally=20 > I find with most customers they should have a bit lower settings from=20 > April to Sept, while settings should be higher from Oct thru March. > > Remember, the battery companies you are dealing with generally don=E2=80= =99t=20 > have a lot of experience in solar=E2=80=A6 they are used to industrial=20 > applications where you see 8-12 hours of charging every single day. =20 > We all know that in most Off grid systems you are lucky to get 3-5=20 > hours, at best of decent charging a day. > > *Steve Higgins > Technical Services Manager > ***P: +1.902.597.4020 > M: +1.206.790.5840 > F: +1.902.597.8447 > *Surrette Battery Company > *Exclusive manufacturer of > > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Theo Van > *Sent:* Monday, January 18, 2016 8:44 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16 charge settings > > No "settings recommend by Trojn"were shown. > On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:43 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I have an off-grid customer for whom I replaced a set of 8 Trojan > L-16s as well as upgrading her inverter and charge controller.=20 > Right after the job, we found several batteries with low specific > gravity. We spoke with the local distributor and received two > replacement batteries. > > The system continues to perform poorly. The customer EQs every 30 > days to 60 plus volts for 3 hours. They try to get a full bulk > and absorption charge in every day but this time of year may not. > The specific gravity readings continue to diverge and generally go > lower. > > We contacted the distributor who told us they have had problems > with Trojan batteries since the company was sold about two years > ago. We were told they had a brand X battery that tested better > than the Trojans. We agreed to try the Brand X but then were told > that we had not charged the Trojans adequately. Below are the > settings recommended directly by Trojan > > These settings are significantly higher than any I have used > before. Also, I don=E2=80=99t recall it being possible to set differ= ent > bulk and absorption voltages with any of the equipment I use. I > use Trace, Outback, Schneider default settings of 57.6 bulk, 54.4 > float and reprogram to 60.5 for equalization. > > I am curious about what charge settings you find successful for > flooded lead-acid batteries and what any of you might think about > the recommended settings as seen below. Do you feel it is > practical to achieve these settings in an off-grid scenario?=20 > Would these high settings cause excessive water consumption? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > I looked at the spreadsheet and the SG. readings across each > battery are uniform which tells be that it is highly unlikely that > anything is wrong with the batteries except for being > under-charged. Take a look at our User=E2=80=99s Guide on the Trojan > website on page 19 ( Recommended Charge Profile) or FLA batteries. > > The Bulk stage should be @ 59.3V, Absorb @ 58.8V, Float @ 54V and > Equalization @ 64.8V. When the User notices drops in the SG such > as in this document, an EQ charge should be performed in order to > get the batteries back up to full charge (full charge SG being in > the range of 1.270 to 1.280. When performing the EQ, the user > should take SG reading for a =E2=80=9Cpilot=E2=80=9D battery every 30= minutes > until the voltages reach that range. Termination should happen > when SG reaches full charge range or if battery temperature > reaches 112 degrees F, which-ever comes first. SG readings can be > taken during EQ, but you have to make sure that you bump the tiny > gas bubbles off the Hydrometer float to prevent erroneous readings. > > Seeing the SG readings decreasing after each month is an > indication that maybe the Absorb Time needs to be increased, maybe > from 3 hours up to 4 or 5 hours. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail=20 > Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information=20 > transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to=20 > which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged=20 > material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and=20 > delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission,=20 > dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities=20 > other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 564 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 12:34:08 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:34:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. In-Reply-To: <569E675F.3090701@psln.com> References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF88E7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> <569E675F.3090701@psln.com> Message-ID: What about temperature sensors bolted to the lugs? Surely a physical thermal transfer over metal is more accurate that the external case would be? On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 12:42 PM, frenergy wrote: > Steve, > > Yikes, so to confirm, even on your or anybody's double-walled > cells the best BTS location is down the side of the cell. It seems so > thermally distance/insulated from the electrolyte and lead which we are all > so concerned about protecting. I've said this before, no doubt I'm in the > minority but I would be willing to insert a polypropylene encased BTS > sensor into a 1/4" hole in the top of a cell, sealed with a viton O-ring. > We are talking about some battery packs costing $5,10,20K, I consider it > one of my prime services is to insure the best lifecycle of the pack. It > seems this arrangement would insure the BTS is doing a much better job of > adjusting CC settings. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Jan 19 18:17:03 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:17:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Charge Settings. In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF88E7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF88E7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: I have long been a fan of aggressive charge voltages for flooded batteries in daily cyclical use. As Steve has emphasized, temp. comp. is imperative, especially using higher absorb voltage as over-voltage at high cell temperature rapidly reduces cycle life. It is my observation that most L16 size batteries don’t do well with lower absorb voltages and I have seen more Trojan L-16 failures than I care to. For L16’s, I recommend 2.5Vpc with extended absorb time until current drops to 0.5A/100AH C. Steve, I concur with your finding about higher voltages. Here’s something I have been doing with success: I have been testing CC/CV/CC charge regime, also called IUI. This provides what I call a mini EQ cycle prior to entering Float charge. Every day when the absorb timer terminates, I start the EQ cycle for about 30 minutes. This drives the voltage up to 2.65Vpc. The current is naturally limited by battery resistance since the battery is nearly full. The results have been impressive for battery life and capacity recovery. Here’s some examples... 1. A customer using this method with Lifeline AGM batteries is in the 10th year of use with only about 20% capacity degradation. 2. Another customer that has 5 year old T-105 batteries began doing this about 6 months ago and has reported capacity being increased. 3. Another has Rolls 530’s (we did not sell or install) in a 12 volt system. After 2.5 years he came to us with the capacity problems. His chargers were set to 2.4Vpc and he had not performed any EQ cycles as mandated. We installed a charger capable of EQ voltages and began the daily EQ cycle and he too has reported capacity recovered. I think it is worthwhile to consider higher charge voltage and/or trying the IUI charge method for anyone experiencing battery capacity loss. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 19, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: The testing that we have done with our batteries, is well over 90% completed has actually increased cycle life and performance even at the higher charging voltages… We are testing at 2.6vpc just for your information, these batteries have actually tested at over 110% capacity. That being said this is also in a lab, where temps are controlled.. In a “real world” situation temperatures are a killer for any manufactures batteries, this is why all systems need a BTS installed. It’s hard to believe how many don’t install them, nor do they install them correctly… As all of you know they should be on the side of the battery, below the level of the plates, this is normally about 1/3 to ½ way down the battery. They should never be on the top. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 22:19:42 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 19:19:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] enphase AC battery In-Reply-To: References: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone know if the enphase battery system is designed to work for battery back up? or just grid support? thanks jay peltz power From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 20 10:53:51 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:53:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] enphase AC battery In-Reply-To: References: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ba01d1539a$c2a187d0$47e49770$@sbcglobal.net> Jay, in visiting with Enphase Tech Support, the guy got quite enthusiastic about the concept that this battery was designed for load shifting. But obviously this could also be used for minor backup, i.e. computers and communication. And I would suppose that ganged in multiples of their 1.2 kWh increments, you could add multiples to reach a fairly sizable bank. Of course each would have its own inverter so this might quickly become more expensive than a large central bank with one inverter. I was surprised that the cost of one of the smallest HUP's (~10 Kwh) was about the same price as a 7 kWh Tesla for almost the same capacity...$3000 (given that you can't pull the HUP down below 70% very often). Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 9:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] enphase AC battery Hi All, Does anyone know if the enphase battery system is designed to work for battery back up? or just grid support? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 11:17:31 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 06:17:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] enphase AC battery In-Reply-To: References: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have used it both for off grid and for battery back up, charger system is ok does not seam to advanced Jerry On Jan 20, 2016 1:06 AM, "jay" wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone know if the enphase battery system is designed to work for > battery back up? > > > or just grid support? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Wed Jan 20 11:50:31 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:50:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] enphase AC battery In-Reply-To: References: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: from their SLD it looks like grid support as there is no transfer switch. this will probably change as they continue to develop the product. https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/AC_Battery_Brochure_NA_web.pdf Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:19 PM, jay wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone know if the enphase battery system is designed to work for > battery back up? > > > or just grid support? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 12:51:35 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:51:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] enphase AC battery In-Reply-To: References: <3a5ca0d13ca2f937edb180ac549c8e9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5EE737C4-19B2-4583-AB6A-D7B3B517017C@gmail.com> Hi jerry You actually have one of the enphase battery units? Jay Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 20, 2016, at 8:17 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I have used it both for off grid and for battery back up, charger system is ok does not seam to advanced > Jerry > >> On Jan 20, 2016 1:06 AM, "jay" wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone know if the enphase battery system is designed to work for battery back up? >> >> >> or just grid support? >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Jan 20 16:53:45 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:53:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue Message-ID: Greetings, Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of removing a bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both sides snapped off flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill it out or maybe a small gear pulling tool? I will never again use the non stainless hardware supplied by the manufacturer... Picture attached for reference. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: _20160120_155125.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 664116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 17:00:04 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:00:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd try an EZ-out screw extractor bit. Handy to have a whole set in the work truck anyways. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Greetings, > > Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of removing a > bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both sides snapped off > flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill it out or maybe a small > gear pulling tool? I will never again use the non stainless hardware > supplied by the manufacturer... > > Picture attached for reference. > > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Jan 20 17:01:15 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:01:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1453327275.440432162@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 05301.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14026 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Jan 20 17:02:32 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:02:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: <1453327275.440432162@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1453327275.440432162@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1453327352.419831850@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 05301.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14026 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windsine at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 17:04:40 2016 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 16:04:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yup, id pre-drill and use an ez-out, or use a flaring tool as a small press and drive it out. RoyR On Jan 20, 2016 3:54 PM, "Kristopher Schmid" wrote: > Greetings, > > Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of removing a > bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both sides snapped off > flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill it out or maybe a small > gear pulling tool? I will never again use the non stainless hardware > supplied by the manufacturer... > > Picture attached for reference. > > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Jan 20 17:11:30 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:11:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A00612.7040004@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jan 20 17:34:52 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:34:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56A00B8C.80207@solarray.com> The EZ out is for unscrewing a threaded connection, I've spent a bunch of time with those only to have the EZ out break off in there too. Then you've got a real mess of hardened tool steel. I would first drill several small 1/8" holes in the lead around the circumference of the bolt. Then, I think tapping or pressing it out is the way. The wheel puller would probably work. You'll end up with an enlarged hole that you can either use a bigger bolt, or washers to deal with. I agree some of the hardware that comes with cheaper L 16s, is inferior. I've had plenty of those square heads come off with minimal torque. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/20/2016 3:04 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > > Yup, id pre-drill and use an ez-out, or use a flaring tool as a small > press and drive it out. > > RoyR > > On Jan 20, 2016 3:54 PM, "Kristopher Schmid" > wrote: > > Greetings, > > Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of > removing a bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. > Both sides snapped off flush with the flag. I was thinking try to > drill it out or maybe a small gear pulling tool? I will never > again use the non stainless hardware supplied by the manufacturer... > > Picture attached for reference. > > Thanks! > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jan 20 18:22:38 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:22:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld Message-ID: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does anyone know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted distributor for bargain Solarworld modules? Thanks, Drake --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 19:49:01 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:49:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I deal with Platt as there are very close to the SW factory Jerry On Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM, "Drake" wrote: > A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does anyone > know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted distributor for > bargain Solarworld modules? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 19:59:02 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:59:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: What's your definition of cheap...and for which size panels? On Wednesday, January 20, 2016, Jerry Shafer wrote: > I deal with Platt as there are very close to the SW factory > Jerry > On Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM, "Drake" > > wrote: > >> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does anyone >> know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted distributor for >> bargain Solarworld modules? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jan 21 00:42:31 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 22:42:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <56A06FC7.80402@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 03:16:51 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 03:16:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Good morning, Are they one of the ones that are being put out as knockoffs ? You know what I mean, cheap counterfeit make everything look good, make the label look exceptional grab the money and run panels ? I certainly hope not, I have had exceptionally good luck with solar World and their predecessors! Later, Bob > On Jan 20, 2016, at 7:59 PM, AE Solar wrote: > > What's your definition of cheap...and for which size panels? > >> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> I deal with Platt as there are very close to the SW factory >> Jerry >> >>> On Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM, "Drake" wrote: >>> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does anyone know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted distributor for bargain Solarworld modules? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jan 21 08:40:53 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:40:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: <56A00B8C.80207@solarray.com> References: <56A00B8C.80207@solarray.com> Message-ID: <8F40AB0F-8870-4D6E-8B18-4E565E26929B@swnl.net> I personally would try to soak the offending post in a solution of baking soda or some other corrosion remover for a while and then gently tap the bolt on both sides. Continuing to do this will eventually loosen the bolt.This IS a thru bolt not something that is threaded. certainly one can drill it out using the step approach 1/8 " then 3/16 then 1/4 till you get to 5/16. Gently tapping or drilling you should find this removal easier then you thought. Tump On Jan 20, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > The EZ out is for unscrewing a threaded connection, I've spent a bunch of time with those only to have the EZ out break off in there too. Then you've got a real mess of hardened tool steel. > > I would first drill several small 1/8" holes in the lead around the circumference of the bolt. Then, I think tapping or pressing it out is the way. The wheel puller would probably work. You'll end up with an enlarged hole that you can either use a bigger bolt, or washers to deal with. > > I agree some of the hardware that comes with cheaper L 16s, is inferior. I've had plenty of those square heads come off with minimal torque. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 1/20/2016 3:04 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: >> Yup, id pre-drill and use an ez-out, or use a flaring tool as a small press and drive it out. >> >> RoyR >> >> On Jan 20, 2016 3:54 PM, "Kristopher Schmid" wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of removing a bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both sides snapped off flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill it out or maybe a small gear pulling tool? I will never again use the non stainless hardware supplied by the manufacturer... >> >> Picture attached for reference. >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jan 21 10:09:26 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 07:09:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: <1453327352.419831850@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1453327275.440432162@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1453327352.419831850@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <56A0F4A6.70603@psln.com> I wonder if by the rounded shape of the flag, Todd's idea might work fine with still a significant amount of contact area. On 1/20/2016 2:02 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > whoops, was that a flag terminal? i looked at it wrong and thought it > was a post terminal. > > todd > > > > On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 2:01pm, toddcory at finestplanet.com said: > > > > On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 1:53pm, "Kristopher Schmid" > said: > > Greetings, > > Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of removing > a bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both sides > snapped off flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill it out > or maybe a small gear pulling tool? I will never again use the non > stainless hardware supplied by the manufacturer... > > Picture attached for reference. > > Thanks! > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jan 21 10:07:47 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:07:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: <8F40AB0F-8870-4D6E-8B18-4E565E26929B@swnl.net> References: <56A00B8C.80207@solarray.com> <8F40AB0F-8870-4D6E-8B18-4E565E26929B@swnl.net> Message-ID: <001601d1545d$7d61d3f0$78257bd0$@com> My first thought was wheel puller with a very small flat file [jewelers type] worked around the edges first. __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 6:41 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue I personally would try to soak the offending post in a solution of baking soda or some other corrosion remover for a while and then gently tap the bolt on both sides. Continuing to do this will eventually loosen the bolt.This IS a thru bolt not something that is threaded. certainly one can drill it out using the step approach 1/8 " then 3/16 then 1/4 till you get to 5/16. Gently tapping or drilling you should find this removal easier then you thought. Tump On Jan 20, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Ray Walters wrote: The EZ out is for unscrewing a threaded connection, I've spent a bunch of time with those only to have the EZ out break off in there too. Then you've got a real mess of hardened tool steel. I would first drill several small 1/8" holes in the lead around the circumference of the bolt. Then, I think tapping or pressing it out is the way. The wheel puller would probably work. You'll end up with an enlarged hole that you can either use a bigger bolt, or washers to deal with. I agree some of the hardware that comes with cheaper L 16s, is inferior. I've had plenty of those square heads come off with minimal torque. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/20/2016 3:04 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: Yup, id pre-drill and use an ez-out, or use a flaring tool as a small press and drive it out. RoyR On Jan 20, 2016 3:54 PM, "Kristopher Schmid" wrote: Greetings, Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of removing a bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both sides snapped off flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill it out or maybe a small gear pulling tool? I will never again use the non stainless hardware supplied by the manufacturer... Picture attached for reference. Thanks! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jan 21 10:46:11 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 07:46:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <1b4e2557dc4c679fb3cedbcf33dcb611.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> So far I have purchased mostly from known distributors, so haven't encountered the cheap knockoff issue. Is this happening much? What is the evidence that this is gong on? I've seen ads claiming SolarWorld modules at over $0.30 / Watt cheaper than the REC modules which I get good pricing on. I don't know the companies. For all I know, they could be counterfeit. They have definitely been advertised as cheap at times as the very lowest end of the Chinese imports. When something seems too good to be true, it usually isn't. Thanks, Drake Good morning, > > Are they one of the ones that are being put out as knockoffs ? > You know what I mean, cheap counterfeit make everything look good, make > the label look exceptional grab the money and run panels ? > > I certainly hope not, I have had exceptionally good luck with solar World > and their predecessors! > > Later, > Bob > >> On Jan 20, 2016, at 7:59 PM, AE Solar >> wrote: >> >> What's your definition of cheap...and for which size panels? >> >>> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016, Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> I deal with Platt as there are very close to the SW factory >>> Jerry >>> >>>> On Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM, "Drake" >>>> wrote: >>>> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does >>>> anyone know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted >>>> distributor for bargain Solarworld modules? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> Adam Katzman >> Autonomous Energies >> PO Box 1245 >> Kingston, NY 12402 >> www.autonomousenergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 11:24:51 2016 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:24:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C399A18-12F4-44AB-B357-A61AD6F5F26C@gmail.com> I would go with the puller idea. Grab a small gear puller at Napa or Autozone and use a large socket or something similar as a spacer on the back side so that the puller jaws don't dig into the soft lead. The challenge may be finding a puller with a small enough bolt to push through the terminal hole. I have also had luck driving out broken bolts with a pin punch. It can get a bit dicey though as you have to back up the terminal with something massive to absorb the force and keep it from bending and it really requires three hands to achieve. -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com > On Jan 20, 2016, at 14:53, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Greetings, > > Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of removing a bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both sides snapped off flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill it out or maybe a small gear pulling tool? I will never again use the non stainless hardware supplied by the manufacturer... > > Picture attached for reference. > > Thanks! > > <_20160120_155125.JPG> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jan 21 12:03:03 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:03:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: <1b4e2557dc4c679fb3cedbcf33dcb611.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <1b4e2557dc4c679fb3cedbcf33dcb611.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, True, the age old adage applies: caveat emptor! I have received thousands of emails offering RE products from companies unknown, locations global, and Gmail address abounding. Also, cost per Watt is so minor an issue compered to buying good performance modules that produces better ROI. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 21, 2016, at 8:46 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: So far I have purchased mostly from known distributors, so haven't encountered the cheap knockoff issue. Is this happening much? What is the evidence that this is gong on? I've seen ads claiming SolarWorld modules at over $0.30 / Watt cheaper than the REC modules which I get good pricing on. I don't know the companies. For all I know, they could be counterfeit. They have definitely been advertised as cheap at times as the very lowest end of the Chinese imports. When something seems too good to be true, it usually isn't. Thanks, Drake Good morning, > > Are they one of the ones that are being put out as knockoffs ? > You know what I mean, cheap counterfeit make everything look good, make > the label look exceptional grab the money and run panels ? > > I certainly hope not, I have had exceptionally good luck with solar World > and their predecessors! > > Later, > Bob > >> On Jan 20, 2016, at 7:59 PM, AE Solar >> wrote: >> >> What's your definition of cheap...and for which size panels? >> >>> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016, Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> I deal with Platt as there are very close to the SW factory >>> Jerry >>> >>>> On Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM, "Drake" >>>> wrote: >>>> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does >>>> anyone know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted >>>> distributor for bargain Solarworld modules? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> Adam Katzman >> Autonomous Energies >> PO Box 1245 >> Kingston, NY 12402 >> www.autonomousenergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 21 12:10:30 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:10:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: <1b4e2557dc4c679fb3cedbcf33dcb611.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <1b4e2557dc4c679fb3cedbcf33dcb611.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <56A11106.7050503@solarray.com> What I've seen lately in my Spam box, advertised at the usual ridiculous price, is for low wattage Solarworld modules. We currently are installing 285 and 290 watt models, and what was being offered were 260 and under. Either they're knock offs, or someone is moving some really old stock. This would be a clever way for Chinese manufacturing to circumvent the tariff I suppose. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/21/2016 8:46 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > So far I have purchased mostly from known distributors, so haven't > encountered the cheap knockoff issue. Is this happening much? What is the > evidence that this is gong on? > > I've seen ads claiming SolarWorld modules at over $0.30 / Watt cheaper > than the REC modules which I get good pricing on. I don't know the > companies. For all I know, they could be counterfeit. They have definitely > been advertised as cheap at times as the very lowest end of the Chinese > imports. When something seems too good to be true, it usually isn't. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Good morning, >> Are they one of the ones that are being put out as knockoffs ? >> You know what I mean, cheap counterfeit make everything look good, make >> the label look exceptional grab the money and run panels ? >> >> I certainly hope not, I have had exceptionally good luck with solar World >> and their predecessors! >> >> Later, >> Bob >> >>> On Jan 20, 2016, at 7:59 PM, AE Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>> What's your definition of cheap...and for which size panels? >>> >>>> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016, Jerry Shafer >>>> wrote: >>>> I deal with Platt as there are very close to the SW factory >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>>> On Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM, "Drake" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does >>>>> anyone know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted >>>>> distributor for bargain Solarworld modules? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Drake >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >>> Adam Katzman >>> Autonomous Energies >>> PO Box 1245 >>> Kingston, NY 12402 >>> www.autonomousenergies.com >>> (518) 567-1468 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From solar1online at charter.net Thu Jan 21 12:47:20 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:47:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: <56A0F4A6.70603@psln.com> References: <1453327275.440432162@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1453327352.419831850@webmail.finestplanet.com> <56A0F4A6.70603@psln.com> Message-ID: <56A119A8.6010408@charter.net> Has the idea of using some solution of baking soda to minimize the existing corrosion has already been suggested? Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 1/21/2016 9:09 AM, frenergy wrote: > I wonder if by the rounded shape of the flag, Todd's idea might work > fine with still a significant amount of contact area. > > > On 1/20/2016 2:02 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: >> >> whoops, was that a flag terminal? i looked at it wrong and thought it >> was a post terminal. >> >> todd >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 2:01pm, toddcory at finestplanet.com said: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 1:53pm, "Kristopher Schmid" >> said: >> >> Greetings, >> >> Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of >> removing a bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both >> sides snapped off flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill >> it out or maybe a small gear pulling tool? I will never again use >> the non stainless hardware supplied by the manufacturer... >> >> Picture attached for reference. >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 14:58:08 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:58:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: <8F40AB0F-8870-4D6E-8B18-4E565E26929B@swnl.net> References: <56A00B8C.80207@solarray.com> <8F40AB0F-8870-4D6E-8B18-4E565E26929B@swnl.net> Message-ID: There's no need to hit the bolt, just press it out with a pulley puller set for two legs. On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 9:40 AM, Tump wrote: > I personally would try to soak the offending post in a solution of baking > soda or some other corrosion remover for a while and then gently tap the > bolt on both sides. Continuing to do this will eventually loosen the > bolt.This IS a thru bolt not something that is threaded. certainly one can > drill it out using the step approach 1/8 " then 3/16 then 1/4 till you > get to 5/16. Gently tapping or drilling you should find this removal > easier then you thought. Tump > > On Jan 20, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > The EZ out is for unscrewing a threaded connection, I've spent a bunch of > time with those only to have the EZ out break off in there too. Then > you've got a real mess of hardened tool steel. > > I would first drill several small 1/8" holes in the lead around the > circumference of the bolt. Then, I think tapping or pressing it out is the > way. The wheel puller would probably work. You'll end up with an > enlarged hole that you can either use a bigger bolt, or washers to deal > with. > > I agree some of the hardware that comes with cheaper L 16s, is inferior. > I've had plenty of those square heads come off with minimal torque. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 1/20/2016 3:04 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > > Yup, id pre-drill and use an ez-out, or use a flaring tool as a small > press and drive it out. > > RoyR > On Jan 20, 2016 3:54 PM, "Kristopher Schmid" > wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of removing a >> bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both sides snapped off >> flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill it out or maybe a small >> gear pulling tool? I will never again use the non stainless hardware >> supplied by the manufacturer... >> >> Picture attached for reference. >> >> Thanks! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 21 16:51:24 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:51:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue In-Reply-To: References: <56A00B8C.80207@solarray.com> <8F40AB0F-8870-4D6E-8B18-4E565E26929B@swnl.net> Message-ID: <66bca42e206c34465eab73a692bc4400@mail.gmail.com> Friends: It’s a clearance bolt hole. Drill it out and install a new one. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:58 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue There's no need to hit the bolt, just press it out with a pulley puller set for two legs. On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 9:40 AM, Tump wrote: I personally would try to soak the offending post in a solution of baking soda or some other corrosion remover for a while and then gently tap the bolt on both sides. Continuing to do this will eventually loosen the bolt.This IS a thru bolt not something that is threaded. certainly one can drill it out using the step approach 1/8 " then 3/16 then 1/4 till you get to 5/16. Gently tapping or drilling you should find this removal easier then you thought. Tump On Jan 20, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Ray Walters wrote: The EZ out is for unscrewing a threaded connection, I've spent a bunch of time with those only to have the EZ out break off in there too. Then you've got a real mess of hardened tool steel. I would first drill several small 1/8" holes in the lead around the circumference of the bolt. Then, I think tapping or pressing it out is the way. The wheel puller would probably work. You'll end up with an enlarged hole that you can either use a bigger bolt, or washers to deal with. I agree some of the hardware that comes with cheaper L 16s, is inferior. I've had plenty of those square heads come off with minimal torque. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/20/2016 3:04 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: Yup, id pre-drill and use an ez-out, or use a flaring tool as a small press and drive it out. RoyR On Jan 20, 2016 3:54 PM, "Kristopher Schmid" wrote: Greetings, Do any of you battery gurus have a suggestion for a method of removing a bolt remnant that is corroded into a flag terminal. Both sides snapped off flush with the flag. I was thinking try to drill it out or maybe a small gear pulling tool? I will never again use the non stainless hardware supplied by the manufacturer... Picture attached for reference. Thanks! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org *Tump at swnl.net * *www.SWNL.net * Solarwinds Northernlights * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 <610-517-8401> * *Blair "TUMP" May* * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jan 21 20:33:09 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:33:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: <56A11106.7050503@solarray.com> References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <1b4e2557dc4c679fb3cedbcf33dcb611.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <56A11106.7050503@solarray.com> Message-ID: Can they really get away with selling fake Solarworld modules? Is there no way to verify there manufacturer? It would seem that Solarworld would want to bust a company selling modules labeled with there name that weren't theirs. If they are old stock at cheap prices, they might be good for some systems. If they are fake, then there would be no warranty and could likely have other issues. Has anyone actually seen knock off modules or seen reliable information that documents their existence? > What I've seen lately in my Spam box, advertised at the usual ridiculous > price, is for low wattage Solarworld modules. We currently are > installing 285 and 290 watt models, and what was being offered were 260 > and under. Either they're knock offs, or someone is moving some really > old stock. > This would be a clever way for Chinese manufacturing to circumvent the > tariff I suppose. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/21/2016 8:46 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> So far I have purchased mostly from known distributors, so haven't >> encountered the cheap knockoff issue. Is this happening much? What is >> the >> evidence that this is gong on? >> >> I've seen ads claiming SolarWorld modules at over $0.30 / Watt cheaper >> than the REC modules which I get good pricing on. I don't know the >> companies. For all I know, they could be counterfeit. They have >> definitely >> been advertised as cheap at times as the very lowest end of the Chinese >> imports. When something seems too good to be true, it usually isn't. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Good morning, >>> Are they one of the ones that are being put out as knockoffs ? >>> You know what I mean, cheap counterfeit make everything look good, make >>> the label look exceptional grab the money and run panels ? >>> >>> I certainly hope not, I have had exceptionally good luck with solar >>> World >>> and their predecessors! >>> >>> Later, >>> Bob >>> >>>> On Jan 20, 2016, at 7:59 PM, AE Solar >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> What's your definition of cheap...and for which size panels? >>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016, Jerry Shafer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> I deal with Platt as there are very close to the SW factory >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM, "Drake" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does >>>>>> anyone know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted >>>>>> distributor for bargain Solarworld modules? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Drake >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Adam Katzman >>>> Autonomous Energies >>>> PO Box 1245 >>>> Kingston, NY 12402 >>>> www.autonomousenergies.com >>>> (518) 567-1468 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Jan 21 20:45:51 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:45:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery corrosion issue Message-ID: <20160121184551.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.4fb4817826.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 21:01:07 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:01:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <1b4e2557dc4c679fb3cedbcf33dcb611.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <56A11106.7050503@solarray.com> Message-ID: <3677539E-00A2-47AA-98AA-1FE33F2726B8@gmail.com> Hi guys. Look not all of us are getting these emails. So please share what's going on ok And my opinion is that if these are published emails with prices you can share them, especially if you think they are bogus parts. Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 21, 2016, at 5:33 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Can they really get away with selling fake Solarworld modules? Is there no > way to verify there manufacturer? It would seem that Solarworld would want > to bust a company selling modules labeled with there name that weren't > theirs. > > If they are old stock at cheap prices, they might be good for some > systems. If they are fake, then there would be no warranty and could > likely have other issues. > > Has anyone actually seen knock off modules or seen reliable information > that documents their existence? > >> What I've seen lately in my Spam box, advertised at the usual ridiculous >> price, is for low wattage Solarworld modules. We currently are >> installing 285 and 290 watt models, and what was being offered were 260 >> and under. Either they're knock offs, or someone is moving some really >> old stock. >> This would be a clever way for Chinese manufacturing to circumvent the >> tariff I suppose. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >>> On 1/21/2016 8:46 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>> So far I have purchased mostly from known distributors, so haven't >>> encountered the cheap knockoff issue. Is this happening much? What is >>> the >>> evidence that this is gong on? >>> >>> I've seen ads claiming SolarWorld modules at over $0.30 / Watt cheaper >>> than the REC modules which I get good pricing on. I don't know the >>> companies. For all I know, they could be counterfeit. They have >>> definitely >>> been advertised as cheap at times as the very lowest end of the Chinese >>> imports. When something seems too good to be true, it usually isn't. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> Good morning, >>>> Are they one of the ones that are being put out as knockoffs ? >>>> You know what I mean, cheap counterfeit make everything look good, make >>>> the label look exceptional grab the money and run panels ? >>>> >>>> I certainly hope not, I have had exceptionally good luck with solar >>>> World >>>> and their predecessors! >>>> >>>> Later, >>>> Bob >>>> >>>>> On Jan 20, 2016, at 7:59 PM, AE Solar >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What's your definition of cheap...and for which size panels? >>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016, Jerry Shafer >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I deal with Platt as there are very close to the SW factory >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM, "Drake" >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does >>>>>>> anyone know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted >>>>>>> distributor for bargain Solarworld modules? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Drake >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Adam Katzman >>>>> Autonomous Energies >>>>> PO Box 1245 >>>>> Kingston, NY 12402 >>>>> www.autonomousenergies.com >>>>> (518) 567-1468 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Tom at thesolar.biz Fri Jan 22 09:47:38 2016 From: Tom at thesolar.biz (Tom Duffy) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:47:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: <3677539E-00A2-47AA-98AA-1FE33F2726B8@gmail.com> References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <1b4e2557dc4c679fb3cedbcf33dcb611.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <56A11106.7050503@solarray.com> <3677539E-00A2-47AA-98AA-1FE33F2726B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All Solarworld themselves have offered us low pricing on containers of 250 or 260 German manufactured modules, but no pricing like 30 cents a watt. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer E-Mail: tom at thesolar.biz Panama Office: 507-6126-1253 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off. It should have been solar.  Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 9:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld Hi guys. Look not all of us are getting these emails. So please share what's going on ok And my opinion is that if these are published emails with prices you can share them, especially if you think they are bogus parts. Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 21, 2016, at 5:33 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Can they really get away with selling fake Solarworld modules? Is > there no way to verify there manufacturer? It would seem that > Solarworld would want to bust a company selling modules labeled with > there name that weren't theirs. > > If they are old stock at cheap prices, they might be good for some > systems. If they are fake, then there would be no warranty and could > likely have other issues. > > Has anyone actually seen knock off modules or seen reliable > information that documents their existence? > >> What I've seen lately in my Spam box, advertised at the usual >> ridiculous price, is for low wattage Solarworld modules. We >> currently are installing 285 and 290 watt models, and what was being >> offered were 260 and under. Either they're knock offs, or someone is >> moving some really old stock. >> This would be a clever way for Chinese manufacturing to circumvent >> the tariff I suppose. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >>> On 1/21/2016 8:46 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>> So far I have purchased mostly from known distributors, so haven't >>> encountered the cheap knockoff issue. Is this happening much? What >>> is the evidence that this is gong on? >>> >>> I've seen ads claiming SolarWorld modules at over $0.30 / Watt >>> cheaper than the REC modules which I get good pricing on. I don't >>> know the companies. For all I know, they could be counterfeit. They >>> have definitely been advertised as cheap at times as the very lowest >>> end of the Chinese imports. When something seems too good to be >>> true, it usually isn't. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> Good morning, >>>> Are they one of the ones that are being put out as knockoffs ? >>>> You know what I mean, cheap counterfeit make everything look good, >>>> make the label look exceptional grab the money and run panels ? >>>> >>>> I certainly hope not, I have had exceptionally good luck with solar >>>> World and their predecessors! >>>> >>>> Later, >>>> Bob >>>> >>>>> On Jan 20, 2016, at 7:59 PM, AE Solar >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What's your definition of cheap...and for which size panels? >>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016, Jerry Shafer >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I deal with Platt as there are very close to the SW factory Jerry >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM, "Drake" >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. >>>>>>> Does anyone know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a >>>>>>> trusted distributor for bargain Solarworld modules? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Drake >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches >>>>>>> .org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ma >>>>>>> illist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Adam Katzman >>>>> Autonomous Energies >>>>> PO Box 1245 >>>>> Kingston, NY 12402 >>>>> www.autonomousenergies.com >>>>> (518) 567-1468 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.o >>>>> rg >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mail >>>>> list.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>>> g >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maill >>>> ist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli >>> st.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From august at luminalt.com Fri Jan 22 11:00:03 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 08:00:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop disconnect for multi tracker TLs In-Reply-To: <006c01d152d3$728b1670$57a14350$@com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <"002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish"@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> <006c01d152d3$728b1670$57a14350$@com> Message-ID: <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches, We have a few jurisdictions in the Bay Area that still require rooftop DC disconnects. We are installing a lot of SMA TL-22 inverters with dual MPPTs and if the system has more than 1 string it has been hard to source a good disconnect option (need 4 poles for switching two ungrounded strings). Does anyone have a good DC disconnect idea for this application? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 11:18:35 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 08:18:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop disconnect for multi tracker TLs In-Reply-To: <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> <006c01d152d3$728b1670$57a14350$@com> <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Midnite solar MNSOB3R -4P...You can get them in a Nema 4X version too which is nice... Another option is DC SUNVOLT..... On Jan 22, 2016 8:00 AM, "August Goers" wrote: > Wrenches, > > > > We have a few jurisdictions in the Bay Area that still require rooftop DC > disconnects. We are installing a lot of SMA TL-22 inverters with dual MPPTs > and if the system has more than 1 string it has been hard to source a good > disconnect option (need 4 poles for switching two ungrounded strings). Does > anyone have a good DC disconnect idea for this application? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jan 22 11:26:00 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 08:26:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> I’m chiming in a bit late on this one. Solaredge is compatible with SunPower. See the P400: http://www.solaredge.us/groups/us/powerbox/module-add-on Solarege has been very popular in the Bay Area among SunPower and non-SunPower dealers. I’ve attended a Tesla Powerwall training and the product is coming but it will probably be a slow and limited rollout (just my gut based on what I saw). The 400 volt battery output in particular will be the most revolutionary part of the product in my opinion. The Storedge product is their 1st gen battery product (I believe) so only time will tell how it works: http://www.solaredge.us/groups/us/products/storedge I’m not convinced that any of the other lithium products are ready for prime time. They are expensive and I don’t personally want to spend the time or money to experiment with them at this point. That said, we recently commissioned our first dual Schneider XW+ system with AGMs and besides a few hiccups, it looks like a very customizable and clean package. I agree that storage is the future and certainly the reduced size and increased cycling ability of lithiums make them very appealing. Cheers, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Parrish *Sent:* Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:07 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Cc:* peter.parrish at solargnosis.com *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 11:34:28 2016 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:34:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fire extinguishers In-Reply-To: References: <1452709402.367329502@webmail.finestplanet.com> <006b01d14e31$575a1320$060e3960$@com> Message-ID: <48D9898D-52C0-43B9-A5C4-D3BFAF61BA0E@gmail.com> Dan, What products are you using for electrolyte neutralizers? -Luke > On Jan 14, 2016, at 13:13, Dan Fink wrote: > > In my PV/battery training sessions for fire departments, we recommend CO2 extinguishers. Fire departments almost always have at least one; they don't usually carry halon. I leave acid/alkaline electrolyte neutralizer with each battery installation and then just recommend to the homeowner a fire extinguisher and eye wash station. > >> > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jan 22 12:25:52 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:25:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464EC060-43F9-4309-8A28-CF6165CCB0BF@starlightsolar.com> August, There are applications where Lithium batteries are far more cost effective than lead batteries. We have off grid customers in Mexico using our LFMP battery systems. Because these are seasonal homes that are left for 6-8 months, there is no maintenance for many months. Every 2-3 years they ruin lead acid banks. For this application, LFMP batteries are ideal. Just turn the battery off and walk away. Come back in 8 months and it is right where you left it less about 1-2AH (EMS boards draw small current). Plus there is an advantage of less capacity degradation due to high summer temperatures. The same thing applies for our RV customers that only use them for a few months each year. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 22, 2016, at 9:26 AM, August Goers wrote: ...I’m not convinced that any of the other lithium products are ready for prime time. They are expensive and I don’t personally want to spend the time or money to experiment with them at this point… Cheers, August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:07 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: peter.parrish at solargnosis.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Jan 22 12:50:26 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 17:50:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWRC50 Message-ID: Hello wrenches, Does anyone have a new or used SW Series remote control cable ? Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Penrose CO allsolar at live.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 12:59:58 2016 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:59:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWRC50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49BF8BA9-FA36-40CA-A5CA-A51CE3C1B544@gmail.com> Jeremy, I might. Are you talking about the one that is basically an old-school parallel printer cable? If so, contact me off list. I'm pretty sure I have a used one. -Luke On Jan 22, 2016, at 10:50 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > Does anyone have a new or used SW Series remote control cable ? > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar > Penrose CO > allsolar at live.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Jan 22 13:22:42 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:22:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWRC50 In-Reply-To: <49BF8BA9-FA36-40CA-A5CA-A51CE3C1B544@gmail.com> References: <49BF8BA9-FA36-40CA-A5CA-A51CE3C1B544@gmail.com> Message-ID: If Luke doesn't have one - I may. Howie *Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Luke Christy wrote: > Jeremy, > I might. Are you talking about the one that is basically an old-school > parallel printer cable? > If so, contact me off list. I'm pretty sure I have a used one. > -Luke > > On Jan 22, 2016, at 10:50 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > > > > > Hello wrenches, > > Does anyone have a new or used SW Series remote control cable ? > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > All Solar > > Penrose CO > > allsolar at live.com > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Jan 22 13:52:39 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:52:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWRC50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, have a few in stock. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: January-22-16 9:50 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWRC50 Hello wrenches, Does anyone have a new or used SW Series remote control cable ? Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Penrose CO allsolar at live.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Jan 22 11:36:58 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 06:36:58 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries and the spin and hype of it all In-Reply-To: <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006201d15533$1ddeaa80$599bff80$@com> Regarding battery storage out here in the middle of the Pacific…there’s so much hyperventilating going on that there’s practically class 2 hurricane winds across the Aloha State. We’re being hit on by battery people from all corners as they see Hawaii as a hot market. Let me tell you something about our hot-for-batteries market. Since the Hawaiian Electric companies (HELCO, HECO and MECO) announced the end of the NEM program last October 12 and the two new interconnect agreements (customer grid supply and customer self supply) for systems 100 kWs and under, take a guess at how many CSS (with battery storage) applications the three companies have received to-date? 500? 200? 100? Nope, nope and nope. A whopping ONE. Batteries may be the Holy Grail and mana from heaven of the future. But in the present….close to nada. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 6:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I’m chiming in a bit late on this one. Solaredge is compatible with SunPower. See the P400: http://www.solaredge.us/groups/us/powerbox/module-add-on Solarege has been very popular in the Bay Area among SunPower and non-SunPower dealers. I’ve attended a Tesla Powerwall training and the product is coming but it will probably be a slow and limited rollout (just my gut based on what I saw). The 400 volt battery output in particular will be the most revolutionary part of the product in my opinion. The Storedge product is their 1st gen battery product (I believe) so only time will tell how it works: http://www.solaredge.us/groups/us/products/storedge I’m not convinced that any of the other lithium products are ready for prime time. They are expensive and I don’t personally want to spend the time or money to experiment with them at this point. That said, we recently commissioned our first dual Schneider XW+ system with AGMs and besides a few hiccups, it looks like a very customizable and clean package. I agree that storage is the future and certainly the reduced size and increased cycling ability of lithiums make them very appealing. Cheers, August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:07 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: peter.parrish at solargnosis.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. Tesla Powerwall batteries. Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage charges. My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a replacement? Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings? Also has anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in addition to BB). There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example. I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business of this sort. Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange information on commercial demand management offerings. Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jan 22 11:25:28 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 11:25:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop disconnect for multi tracker TLs In-Reply-To: <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <"002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish"@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> <006c01d152d3$728b1670$57a14350$@com> <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160122162541.EE1FE10225@che.dreamhost.com> Midnight solar. -----Original Message----- From: "August Goers" Sent: ‎1/‎22/‎2016 11:00 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop disconnect for multi tracker TLs Wrenches, We have a few jurisdictions in the Bay Area that still require rooftop DC disconnects. We are installing a lot of SMA TL-22 inverters with dual MPPTs and if the system has more than 1 string it has been hard to source a good disconnect option (need 4 poles for switching two ungrounded strings). Does anyone have a good DC disconnect idea for this application? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 22 12:44:38 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:44:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop disconnect for multi tracker TLs In-Reply-To: <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <"002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish"@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> <006c01d152d3$728b1670$57a14350$@com> <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46FBABBC-1E12-4620-A803-8269066F34BA@millersolar.com> August: Have you tried Sun Volt? We installed one of their switches and it worked out Ok. This will add 250 to 550 dollars to your job, of course. William > On Jan 22, 2016, at 8:00 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We have a few jurisdictions in the Bay Area that still require rooftop DC disconnects. We are installing a lot of SMA TL-22 inverters with dual MPPTs and if the system has more than 1 string it has been hard to source a good disconnect option (need 4 poles for switching two ungrounded strings). Does anyone have a good DC disconnect idea for this application? > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Jan 22 14:30:14 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 12:30:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Jan 22 15:03:37 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:03:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop disconnect for multi tracker TLs In-Reply-To: <46FBABBC-1E12-4620-A803-8269066F34BA@millersolar.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> <006c01d152d3$728b1670$57a14350$@com> <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> <46FBABBC-1E12-4620-A803-8269066F34BA@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Solar BOS makes some good disconnects. 4 pole disconnect: F2SK32-1-4XP. Less Expensive than Midnite Solar, but you have to buy directly from Solar BOS and the lead times can be longer. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:44 PM, William Miller wrote: > August: > > Have you tried Sun Volt? We installed one of their switches and it worked > out Ok. This will add 250 to 550 dollars to your job, of course. > > William > > On Jan 22, 2016, at 8:00 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Wrenches, > > > > We have a few jurisdictions in the Bay Area that still require rooftop DC > disconnects. We are installing a lot of SMA TL-22 inverters with dual MPPTs > and if the system has more than 1 string it has been hard to source a good > disconnect option (need 4 poles for switching two ungrounded strings). Does > anyone have a good DC disconnect idea for this application? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 15:56:30 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:56:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fire extinguishers In-Reply-To: <48D9898D-52C0-43B9-A5C4-D3BFAF61BA0E@gmail.com> References: <1452709402.367329502@webmail.finestplanet.com> <006b01d14e31$575a1320$060e3960$@com> <48D9898D-52C0-43B9-A5C4-D3BFAF61BA0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Luke; a Sam's Club size box of baking soda for lead-acid battery banks, or a couple gallons of vinegar for NiFe cells. And lots of homeowner education especially about PPE. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Luke Christy wrote: > > Dan, > What products are you using for electrolyte neutralizers? > > > -Luke > > > On Jan 14, 2016, at 13:13, Dan Fink wrote: > > In my PV/battery training sessions for fire departments, we recommend CO2 > extinguishers. Fire departments almost always have at least one; they don't > usually carry halon. I leave acid/alkaline electrolyte neutralizer with > each battery installation and then just recommend to the homeowner a fire > extinguisher and eye wash station. > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jan 22 17:46:09 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:46:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allan, I would like to challenge the use of the term "locally manufactured". Mccune Solar Works does not manufacture lithium batteries. They purchase battery cells from China and package other third party components like EMS and relays to make a lithium battery system. Very similar to what we do except our LFMP battery package EMS and CPU is designed by the manufacturer exclusively for GBS batteries. Perhaps a better term would be LFP battery dealer or integrator. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, A longtime off grid friend of mine, with whom both I and Positive Energy have collaborated on difficult installations over the years, just purchased a 24V 230AH, 120 lb. LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery bank that is locally manufactured in Albuquerque. It's still too small and too expensive to run his entire home, so he has devised a battery switching system and is keeping his older FLAs in operation while he tests these and affords more strings. So far he's quite pleased with the performance, but there's not yet a track record for his set. So I want to pass on this low-key manufacturer: Chuck McCune, McCune Industries, http://www.mccunesolarworks.com , (866) 622-8630. I believe that a legal Non-Disclosure Agreement is necessary to get the real info. Contact me off list if you'd like to speak with my friend with the new set. I believe that he has set up as a regional dealer. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Jan 22 19:23:27 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 00:23:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWRC50 In-Reply-To: References: <49BF8BA9-FA36-40CA-A5CA-A51CE3C1B544@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Definitely need the 50ft version. Thanks Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Jan 22, 2016, at 11:23 AM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: If Luke doesn't have one - I may. Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Luke Christy > wrote: Jeremy, I might. Are you talking about the one that is basically an old-school parallel printer cable? If so, contact me off list. I'm pretty sure I have a used one. -Luke On Jan 22, 2016, at 10:50 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > Does anyone have a new or used SW Series remote control cable ? > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar > Penrose CO > allsolar at live.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm): Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer(tm): Certification #ST032611-03 Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jan 22 19:35:09 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 16:35:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> Larry, To get back to your previous response to me – I’m fully onboard with the benefits of lithium batteries. For now, they seem like the clear successor to lead acid technology. However, I’m still concerned about the ability of these smaller “integrators” to assemble cells and electronics together and make a robust package. There may very well be good ones out there, I just don’t know. Tesla’s product is still brand new and who knows how that is going to go. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems *Sent:* Friday, January 22, 2016 2:46 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries Hi Allan, I would like to challenge the use of the term "locally manufactured". Mccune Solar Works does not manufacture lithium batteries. They purchase battery cells from China and package other third party components like EMS and relays to make a lithium battery system. Very similar to what we do except our LFMP battery package EMS and CPU is designed by the manufacturer exclusively for GBS batteries. Perhaps a better term would be LFP battery dealer or integrator. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, A longtime off grid friend of mine, with whom both I and Positive Energy have collaborated on difficult installations over the years, just purchased a 24V 230AH, 120 lb. LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery bank that is locally manufactured in Albuquerque. It's still too small and too expensive to run his entire home, so he has devised a battery switching system and is keeping his older FLAs in operation while he tests these and affords more strings. So far he's quite pleased with the performance, but there's not yet a track record for his set. So I want to pass on this low-key manufacturer: Chuck McCune, McCune Industries, http://www.mccunesolarworks.com, (866) 622-8630. I believe that a legal Non-Disclosure Agreement is necessary to get the real info. Contact me off list if you'd like to speak with my friend with the new set. I believe that he has set up as a regional dealer. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Jan 23 14:44:39 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 12:44:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: August, To be sure, there is a fragility in using LFP batteries if the integrator does not understand the pitfalls….and there are many. In November a lithium battery and solar “dealer” emailed me for help. He had damaged an $8000 battery bank and wanted to know how to get it working again. After I told him a few things to NOT do, I then offered my expertise for a $250 consulting fee. No response. I could tell of other cases where the unlearned have ruined their DIY installation or people have bought a LI-ion battery from dealers that won’t provide support. The stories are too many. I’ve been on the bleeding edge for 2 years now and I’m still discovering mistakes I made in the early application of our battery. Fortunately I am able to make the changes to hardware and software to keep the battery safe from humans. Lead is SO much more forgiving than Li-ion when it is not done right. We are up to 4-5 installations per month plus out the door sale of about 5 systems per month. I receive email inquiries daily about our LFMP batteries. I have high hopes for products from the likes of Tesla. As I have said in the past, Lithium battery technology IS the future for RE storage…lead, your years are numbered. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 22, 2016, at 5:35 PM, August Goers wrote: Larry, To get back to your previous response to me – I’m fully onboard with the benefits of lithium batteries. For now, they seem like the clear successor to lead acid technology. However, I’m still concerned about the ability of these smaller “integrators” to assemble cells and electronics together and make a robust package. There may very well be good ones out there, I just don’t know. Tesla’s product is still brand new and who knows how that is going to go. Best, August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 2:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries Hi Allan, I would like to challenge the use of the term "locally manufactured". Mccune Solar Works does not manufacture lithium batteries. They purchase battery cells from China and package other third party components like EMS and relays to make a lithium battery system. Very similar to what we do except our LFMP battery package EMS and CPU is designed by the manufacturer exclusively for GBS batteries. Perhaps a better term would be LFP battery dealer or integrator. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: Wrenches, A longtime off grid friend of mine, with whom both I and Positive Energy have collaborated on difficult installations over the years, just purchased a 24V 230AH, 120 lb. LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery bank that is locally manufactured in Albuquerque. It's still too small and too expensive to run his entire home, so he has devised a battery switching system and is keeping his older FLAs in operation while he tests these and affords more strings. So far he's quite pleased with the performance, but there's not yet a track record for his set. So I want to pass on this low-key manufacturer: Chuck McCune, McCune Industries, http://www.mccunesolarworks.com , (866) 622-8630. I believe that a legal Non-Disclosure Agreement is necessary to get the real info. Contact me off list if you'd like to speak with my friend with the new set. I believe that he has set up as a regional dealer. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 12:47:18 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:47:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SE / tesla availability In-Reply-To: References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF86FB@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CAF88E7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: HI All, I’m guessing you are being hit with these questions too. But any time frames for the SE equipment that’ll be ready to go with Tesla batteries? thanks jay peltz power From frenergy at psln.com Sat Jan 23 16:46:44 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 13:46:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <56A3F4C4.6030702@psln.com> Larry, Thanks to people like you, we will all benefit from Lithium=20 batteries coming online sooner, no doubt at a decreasing cost. Many of=20 us in this field know what its like to pioneer/beta test new products=20 but soldier on to move things along to a better future. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/23/2016 11:44 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > August, > > To be sure, there is a fragility in using LFP batteries if the=20 > integrator does not understand the pitfalls=E2=80=A6.and there are many. = In=20 > November a lithium battery and solar =E2=80=9Cdealer=E2=80=9D emailed me = for help. He=20 > had damaged an $8000 battery bank and wanted to know how to get it=20 > working again. After I told him a few things to NOT do, I then offered=20 > my expertise for a $250 consulting fee. No response. I could tell of=20 > other cases where the unlearned have ruined their DIY installation or=20 > people have bought a LI-ion battery from dealers that won=E2=80=99t provi= de=20 > support. The stories are too many. > > I=E2=80=99ve been on the bleeding edge for 2 years now and I=E2=80=99m st= ill=20 > discovering mistakes I made in the early application of our battery.=20 > Fortunately I am able to make the changes to hardware and software to=20 > keep the battery safe from humans. Lead is SO much more forgiving than=20 > Li-ion when it is not done right. > > We are up to 4-5 installations per month plus out the door sale of=20 > about 5 systems per month. I receive email inquiries daily about our=20 > LFMP batteries. I have high hopes for products from the likes of=20 > Tesla. As I have said in the past, Lithium battery technology IS the=20 > future for RE storage=E2=80=A6lead, your years are numbered. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On Jan 22, 2016, at 5:35 PM, August Goers > wrote: > > Larry, > > To get back to your previous response to me =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m fully o= nboard with=20 > the benefits of lithium batteries. For now, they seem like the clear=20 > successor to lead acid technology. However, I=E2=80=99m still concerned a= bout=20 > the ability of these smaller =E2=80=9Cintegrators=E2=80=9D to assemble ce= lls and=20 > electronics together and make a robust package. There may very well be=20 > good ones out there, I just don=E2=80=99t know. Tesla=E2=80=99s product i= s still brand=20 > new and who knows how that is going to go. > > Best, > > August > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > ] *On Behalf Of=20 > *Starlight Solar Power Systems > *Sent:* Friday, January 22, 2016 2:46 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall=20 > Batteries > > Hi Allan, > > I would like to challenge the use of the term "locally manufactured".=20 > Mccune Solar Works does not manufacture lithium batteries. They=20 > purchase battery cells from China and package other third party=20 > components like EMS and relays to make a lithium battery system. Very=20 > similar to what we do except our LFMP battery package EMS and CPU is=20 > designed by the manufacturer exclusively for GBS batteries. Perhaps a=20 > better term would be LFP battery dealer or integrator. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > Wrenches, > A longtime off grid friend of mine, with whom both I and Positive=20 > Energy have collaborated on difficult installations over the years,=20 > just purchased a 24V 230AH, 120 lb. LiFePO_4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate)=20 > battery bank that is locally manufactured in Albuquerque. It's still=20 > too small and too expensive to run his entire home, so he has devised=20 > a battery switching system and is keeping his older FLAs in operation=20 > while he tests these and affords more strings. So far he's quite=20 > pleased with the performance, but there's not yet a track record for=20 > his set. > > So I want to pass on this low-key manufacturer: Chuck McCune, McCune=20 > Industries, http://www.mccunesolarworks.com=20 > , (866) 622-8630. I believe that a=20 > legal Non-Disclosure Agreement is necessary to get the real info. > > Contact me off list if you'd like to speak with my friend with the new=20 > set. I believe that he has set up as a regional dealer. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Jan 23 17:39:25 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:39:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <56A4011D.8040704@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Jan 23 15:28:07 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:28:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01d1561c$9310a670$b931f350$@com> Aloha Larry, To take a step back…what’s the compelling value proposition from the homeowner’s perspective to incur this non-trivial additional expense? To be blunt, what’s in it for them? Back-up power? First adopter mojo? Thanks, marco August, To be sure, there is a fragility in using LFP batteries if the integrator does not understand the pitfalls….and there are many. In November a lithium battery and solar “dealer” emailed me for help. He had damaged an $8000 battery bank and wanted to know how to get it working again. After I told him a few things to NOT do, I then offered my expertise for a $250 consulting fee. No response. I could tell of other cases where the unlearned have ruined their DIY installation or people have bought a LI-ion battery from dealers that won’t provide support. The stories are too many. I’ve been on the bleeding edge for 2 years now and I’m still discovering mistakes I made in the early application of our battery. Fortunately I am able to make the changes to hardware and software to keep the battery safe from humans. Lead is SO much more forgiving than Li-ion when it is not done right. We are up to 4-5 installations per month plus out the door sale of about 5 systems per month. I receive email inquiries daily about our LFMP batteries. I have high hopes for products from the likes of Tesla. As I have said in the past, Lithium battery technology IS the future for RE storage…lead, your years are numbered. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 16:22:56 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 13:22:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop disconnect for multi tracker TLs In-Reply-To: <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <"002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish"@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> <006c01d152d3$728b1670$57a14350$@com> <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A0B4DB3-9983-4A41-B2D8-399CD318C6CF@gmail.com> Probably 2 of the Sq D 361RB still might be the least expensive. jay peltz power > On Jan 22, 2016, at 8:00 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We have a few jurisdictions in the Bay Area that still require rooftop DC disconnects. We are installing a lot of SMA TL-22 inverters with dual MPPTs and if the system has more than 1 string it has been hard to source a good disconnect option (need 4 poles for switching two ungrounded strings). Does anyone have a good DC disconnect idea for this application? > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 18:57:09 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 16:57:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <000c01d1561c$9310a670$b931f350$@com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> <000c01d1561c$9310a670$b931f350$@com> Message-ID: Marco; Winter storms, hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, floods, etc. - backup power. Maybe load shaving as the utilities get more persnickety on time of use upcharges. Of course for most folks, an infernal combustion generator is far more cost effective than batteries. But for an extended grid outage and with a critical loads subpanel installed, PV charges on sunny days, generators still need fuel which may be in short supply or inaccessible. So, preppers. Most are surprised at how little autonomy time they get from a really expensive battery bank, but if it's TEOTWAWKI at least their solar "fuel" is free, minus the amortized cost of the battery bank. I get lots of phone calls from preppers who really need lithium prescribed by their psychologist far more than they need it in a backup battery bank...... Lithium batteries seem impressive on how long they can sit unused / float with no degradation, but I'd rather let all y'all be the guinea pigs on them for awhile. I'm doing my part by guinea pigging NiFe batteries off the grid. So far, so good, and darned glad I now know their ins and outs compared to lead acid. I would have been horribly embarrassed if I'd done my first NiFe battery bank for a customer instead of for myself....I chose NiFe here simply because of decades of historical data, I don't trust Lithium yet for longevity, but thanks Larry C and others on this list who have been doing lithium batteries for years and reporting their results here. This Wrenches List is the gold standard of good information! Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha Larry, > > > > To take a step back…what’s the compelling value proposition from the > homeowner’s perspective to incur this non-trivial additional expense? To > be blunt, what’s in it for them? Back-up power? First adopter mojo? > > > > Thanks, > > marco > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sun Jan 24 18:10:28 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 16:10:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <000c01d1561c$9310a670$b931f350$@com> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> <000c01d1561c$9310a670$b931f350$@com> Message-ID: Aloha Marco, If most of your customers take good care of their lead battery banks, the cost may be well more than one could justify. The types of customers I service regularly destroy batteries for a few, repeated reasons. We offer the lithium battery because it overcomes all the reasons their batteries are damaged and offers self protection from the owners neglect or abuse. I think a certain number of purchases are first adopter junkies. This fact is present in many tech industries: first Segway, iWatch and so on. Others perceive the value from benefits that lead can’t offer. I’ll just shoot from the cuff here: One huge example is that it takes 40% less time to recharge LFMP. A PV solar system is always charging in the bulk mode so there are no electrons wasted as with lead in the absorb and float modes. Same thing applies with generator fuel savings. Much higher charge efficiency than lead. No Peukert’s effect whether you charge/discharge fast or slow. You can walk away from our battery for many months with no maintenance required, no loss of capacity. Very low sag; Voltages always stay high with very minimal change over 90% of the battery. You can use 100% of the battery without harm so much smaller banks can be used. Single cell replacement at any stage of battery life. Claimed cycle life at 3 to 6 times that of lead batteries. (we shall see) Significantly higher and faster current available for inverters starting heavy loads; smaller inverter can be used. Capacity monitoring and fault detection and protection are part of the package. Far less degradation of capacity due to high temperature. There is no need to fully charge so PV arrays and generators can be smaller. Fully protected system in case of user neglect. MUCH higher charge current can be used, up to 3C; lead is about C/5, Trojan is C/6 For our RV customer, a huge weight reduction, about 75%, and space savings. No testing, no monitoring, no log keeping, no equalizing, no cleaning, no worry about harming the battery, no replacing corroded cables and connectors, no break in period to achieve full capacity, I’m tired of thinking. Of course, there are some disadvantages. For the average off grinder or battery backup, you will save money buying lead. You might even save a lot of money if your time is free. Some will simply want the advantages Lithium ion offers and pay the price now. I like those customers. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 23, 2016, at 1:28 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Aloha Larry, To take a step back…what’s the compelling value proposition from the homeowner’s perspective to incur this non-trivial additional expense? To be blunt, what’s in it for them? Back-up power? First adopter mojo? Thanks, marco August, To be sure, there is a fragility in using LFP batteries if the integrator does not understand the pitfalls….and there are many. In November a lithium battery and solar “dealer” emailed me for help. He had damaged an $8000 battery bank and wanted to know how to get it working again. After I told him a few things to NOT do, I then offered my expertise for a $250 consulting fee. No response. I could tell of other cases where the unlearned have ruined their DIY installation or people have bought a LI-ion battery from dealers that won’t provide support. The stories are too many. I’ve been on the bleeding edge for 2 years now and I’m still discovering mistakes I made in the early application of our battery. Fortunately I am able to make the changes to hardware and software to keep the battery safe from humans. Lead is SO much more forgiving than Li-ion when it is not done right. We are up to 4-5 installations per month plus out the door sale of about 5 systems per month. I receive email inquiries daily about our LFMP batteries. I have high hopes for products from the likes of Tesla. As I have said in the past, Lithium battery technology IS the future for RE storage…lead, your years are numbered. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Jan 25 15:28:28 2016 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (markf at berkeleysolar.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:28:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> <000c01d1561c$9310a670$b931f350$@com> Message-ID: <36623.66.117.140.17.1453753708.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Dan, Can you give us a quick over view of the ins and outs of the NiFe batteries? Thanks, Mark Frye > Marco; > Winter storms, hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, floods, etc. - backup > power. Maybe load shaving as the utilities get more persnickety on time of > use upcharges. > > Of course for most folks, an infernal combustion generator is far more > cost > effective than batteries. But for an extended grid outage and with a > critical loads subpanel installed, PV charges on sunny days, generators > still need fuel which may be in short supply or inaccessible. > So, preppers. Most are surprised at how little autonomy time they get from > a really expensive battery bank, but if it's TEOTWAWKI at least their > solar > "fuel" is free, minus the amortized cost of the battery bank. I get lots > of > phone calls from preppers who really need lithium prescribed by their > psychologist far more than they need it in a backup battery bank...... > > Lithium batteries seem impressive on how long they can sit unused / float > with no degradation, but I'd rather let all y'all be the guinea pigs on > them for awhile. I'm doing my part by guinea pigging NiFe batteries off > the > grid. So far, so good, and darned glad I now know their ins and outs > compared to lead acid. I would have been horribly embarrassed if I'd done > my first NiFe battery bank for a customer instead of for myself....I chose > NiFe here simply because of decades of historical data, I don't trust > Lithium yet for longevity, but thanks Larry C and others on this list who > have been doing lithium batteries for years and reporting their results > here. > > This Wrenches List is the gold standard of good information! > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Aloha Larry, >> >> >> >> To take a step back…what’s the compelling value proposition from the >> homeowner’s perspective to incur this non-trivial additional expense? >> To >> be blunt, what’s in it for them? Back-up power? First adopter mojo? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> marco >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 17:51:26 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 15:51:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries In-Reply-To: <36623.66.117.140.17.1453753708.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> <000c01d1561c$9310a670$b931f350$@com> <36623.66.117.140.17.1453753708.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hello Mark; My NiFes went in last March, I'm almost at a year living with them off the grid. To avoid writing a novel here I'll group my comments into Oddities, Advantages and Disadvantages. Advantages: ~ at least 25 year lifespan ~ 10 year warranty ~ Can add more parallel strings at any time/age, just drain and replace electrolyte of old batteries ~ 80% depth of discharge no problem, so can size smaller amp-hour capacity Oddities: ~ alkaline electrolyte, neutralize spills and clean tops with white vinegar ~ Specific gravity of electrolyte does not change with state of charge so a hydrometer is useless ~ Charge / discharge efficiency changes greatly with state of charge. Sometimes my Magnum ME-BMK amp hour meter matches the Midnite Whizbang Jr exactly, sometimes they are way off from each other. For ground truth, the state of charge vs. voltage curve from the battery manufacturer seems right on, not counting false readings when the batteries are not at rest for a couple hours. ~ Fooling PV MPPT charge controllers into dealing with NiFes involves setting a very long and high Absorb voltage ~ Charge efficiency is great up to 80% state of charge, but after that drops way off. Above 80% SOC these batteries want to see 1.65v per cell to really fill up. No problem for modern MPPT PV controllers, but- ~ Some inverter / chargers (Magnum here) freak out and shut down at 1.6v per cell, so the solution from the battery manufacturer is- ~ Run fewer cells during times of year when charging is frequent from the generator, put the extra cells back in the string during times of year when the charging is mostly PV. Sitting uncharged does not damage these "extra" cells. ~ So I am running a 10.8v battery bank right now, will bring it back to 12v this spring. No big deal, but does affect inverter surge capacity. Would not be as much of a problem at 24v or 48v. ~ Disadvantages: ~ The high Absorb voltage to get that last 20% SOC efficiently bubbles through a lot of distilled water. My schedule is 1-2 gallons every 40 days, and the company sends a reminder email at that interval. ~ The bubbling gets the tops dirty fast. A cleaning every 40 days is about right. ~ High cost ~ Twiddling with string voltages semi-annually. This would not be an issue if most charging is from PV. My thoughts: My overall impression of being married to NiFes way off the grid has so far been favorable.In a grid standby situation, I think string voltage twiddling would be a non-issue, who cares about the last 20% of SOC charge efficiency in that situation? Off the grid with daily cycling, generator use, etc, I would not consider these to be batteries for off-grid beginners. But anyone who has been off grid for a few years with lead acid batteries will immediately appreciate the advantages and only occasionally curse the quirks of Nife. Plans here: Increase my PV by about 30%. Cheap and easy, no more taking cells in and out of the string, and less winter generator run time. Get 'em to 80% on genny during tough snowbound times and let PV do the rest. Figure out some Arduino solution for monitoring when Peukert's exponent changes depending on SOC. Complain to inverter/charger manufacturers to make them work better with NiFe. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 1:28 PM, wrote: > Dan, > > Can you give us a quick over view of the ins and outs of the NiFe > batteries? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > > > > Marco; > > Winter storms, hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, floods, etc. - backup > > power. Maybe load shaving as the utilities get more persnickety on time > of > > use upcharges. > > > > Of course for most folks, an infernal combustion generator is far more > > cost > > effective than batteries. But for an extended grid outage and with a > > critical loads subpanel installed, PV charges on sunny days, generators > > still need fuel which may be in short supply or inaccessible. > > So, preppers. Most are surprised at how little autonomy time they get > from > > a really expensive battery bank, but if it's TEOTWAWKI at least their > > solar > > "fuel" is free, minus the amortized cost of the battery bank. I get lots > > of > > phone calls from preppers who really need lithium prescribed by their > > psychologist far more than they need it in a backup battery bank...... > > > > Lithium batteries seem impressive on how long they can sit unused / > float > > with no degradation, but I'd rather let all y'all be the guinea pigs on > > them for awhile. I'm doing my part by guinea pigging NiFe batteries off > > the > > grid. So far, so good, and darned glad I now know their ins and outs > > compared to lead acid. I would have been horribly embarrassed if I'd done > > my first NiFe battery bank for a customer instead of for myself....I > chose > > NiFe here simply because of decades of historical data, I don't trust > > Lithium yet for longevity, but thanks Larry C and others on this list who > > have been doing lithium batteries for years and reporting their results > > here. > > > > This Wrenches List is the gold standard of good information! > > > > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > > 970.672.4342 > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > > wrote: > > > >> Aloha Larry, > >> > >> > >> > >> To take a step back…what’s the compelling value proposition from the > >> homeowner’s perspective to incur this non-trivial additional expense? > >> To > >> be blunt, what’s in it for them? Back-up power? First adopter mojo? > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> marco > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Mon Jan 25 17:29:12 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 14:29:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: <36623.66.117.140.17.1453753708.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.c676420a.773ba.ffffdad0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <79411ff96edb344bd736cd9fb97d05c3@mail.gmail.com> <56A28346.80300@sindelarsolar.com> <0d2062e601327820b536cbd43d73b04b@mail.gmail.com> <000c01d1561c$9310a670$b931f350$@com> <36623.66.117.140.17.1453753708.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00c501d157bf$d1f46580$75dd3080$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Let me wade in here leading with my chin. (1) "Li batteries" come in a bewildering number of chemistries. Try this on for size: LiCoO2 (LCO), LiNiCoAlOx (NCA), LiMn2O4 (LMO), LiFePO4 (LFP), LiNiMnCoO2 (NMC), LiFeMnPO4, etc. (2) Each chemistry has its own virtues and vices: voltage per cell, cycle life vs. DOD, operating temperature, specific energy (kWh/kg), specific power (e.g. 1C 35C), safety and thermal runaway. (3) Because of the high energy density, and high number of cycles down to 80% DOD (compared to NiCd, NiMHi and of course Pb), the early adopters were cordless drills laptops, cell phones and (yes) battery pack for commercial jets. All of these are mobile applications (keep this in mind for later). (4) There were a number of highly publicized reports of fires -- car, 787 Dreamliner, laptops and today hoverboards. The Li batteries in the 787 and the laptop fires were LiCO2. Let's forget about the hoverboard fires for now. LiCO2 has the lowest (max) operating temperature 150 deg-C. Apparently it was relatively easy to get the battery temperature up to that value, if there was inadequate forced air cooling or lack of sophisticated conduction cooling (including pumped liquid coolant) (5) And, I think we are all aware of this, some of the reports of fires caused by Li batteries were BOGUS sensationalized accounts. My (least) favorite account was the one where a pair vehicles parked in a carport/garage were destroyed by a fire. One of the vehicles was a hybrid, the other was a truck (converted to batteries and electric propulsion by a DIYer). The initial account blamed the hybrid for the fire. Later it was found out the cause of the fire was a branch circuit the same DIYer brought out the garage for his L2 charger. I believe he undersized his wire and oversized his breaker. (6) Now come the hoverboards. Many of them have been rushed to the consumer market without good engineering. In many products, it is difficult if not impossible to trace the manu for the batteries or the charging system. There have been reports of bogus UL stickers. Basically, STAY AWAY FROM HOVERBOARDS! (7) For stationary application -- off-grid, grid-tied battery back-up and grid-tied with load shifting applications -- energy density is not so critical, and safety IMHO is paramount. Guess what? LiFePO4 (and LiFeMnPO4 I believe) have much higher (max) operating temperatures, something on the order of 270 deg-C And about 2/3rd's the energy density of LiCO2 (105 kWh/kg vs. 170 kWh/kg). Guess where Pd-acid fits in here? ~40 kWh/kg. Actually, an AGM that I have had success with -- the SunXtender PVX2580 -- weighs in at 258 Ah (24 hour rate), 12 V nominal and 72 kg for 43 kWh/kg. Of course specific power (kW/kg) and self-discharge rates are also important and the LiFePO4 fairs very well by comparison with Pb-acid. (8) Cost? I think I paid something on the order of $500 for the PVX2580 (it's been a while) so that’s $6.20/Wh. Of course you could get a flooded cell Pb-acid battery for less -- you do the math. I have not yet purchased a comparable Li battery, but Elon Musk says his Powerwalls will sell for $2.30 to $2.90/Wh. We'll see. Despite Musk's slick presentation, the Powerwall is not generally available. I have heard numbers on the order of $5-7/Wh for other Li batteries. The problem I have encountered is that most of the vendors I have contacted are interested in selling an integrated system with battery management and an inverter. I am trying to reach Larry at Starlight Solar to get pricing on his 100 Ah nom 12 V lithium batteries, which I understand is LiFeMnPO4, which I hope has the same physical and electrical characteristics as LiFePO4. (9) Battery management. Li batteries, depending on the chemistry, have very precise charging and discharging requirements and esp the LiCoO2 batteries. I hope I'm not making undue assumptions, but the LiFe(Mn)PO4 is much more robust and may be compatible with programmable Pb-acid charge controllers (with appropriate adjustments). (10) Based on the application I am currently work on -- stationary, indoor, grid-tied, daily charge/discharge cycles for load management -- the LiFePO4 has superior electrical and mechanical characteristics, and the life-cycle cost is MUCH LESS than even AGM batteries. It's a new world out there. Tech support, reliability, warranties, will all get sorted out in time. Hopefully our early adopters will be handsomely rewarded for their efforts. As I said, my application is a not quite mainstream (yet), and I will probably end up buying an integrated system. Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 12:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries Dan, Can you give us a quick over view of the ins and outs of the NiFe batteries? Thanks, Mark Frye > Marco; > Winter storms, hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, floods, etc. - > backup power. Maybe load shaving as the utilities get more persnickety > on time of use upcharges. > > Of course for most folks, an infernal combustion generator is far more > cost effective than batteries. But for an extended grid outage and > with a critical loads subpanel installed, PV charges on sunny days, > generators still need fuel which may be in short supply or > inaccessible. > So, preppers. Most are surprised at how little autonomy time they get > from a really expensive battery bank, but if it's TEOTWAWKI at least > their solar "fuel" is free, minus the amortized cost of the battery > bank. I get lots of phone calls from preppers who really need lithium > prescribed by their psychologist far more than they need it in a > backup battery bank...... > > Lithium batteries seem impressive on how long they can sit unused / > float with no degradation, but I'd rather let all y'all be the guinea > pigs on them for awhile. I'm doing my part by guinea pigging NiFe > batteries off the grid. So far, so good, and darned glad I now know > their ins and outs compared to lead acid. I would have been horribly > embarrassed if I'd done my first NiFe battery bank for a customer > instead of for myself....I chose NiFe here simply because of decades > of historical data, I don't trust Lithium yet for longevity, but > thanks Larry C and others on this list who have been doing lithium > batteries for years and reporting their results here. > > This Wrenches List is the gold standard of good information! > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > > wrote: > >> Aloha Larry, >> >> >> >> To take a step back…what’s the compelling value proposition from >> the homeowner’s perspective to incur this non-trivial additional expense? >> To >> be blunt, what’s in it for them? Back-up power? First adopter mojo? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> marco >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Tue Jan 26 15:52:06 2016 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:52:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop disconnect for multi tracker TLs In-Reply-To: References: <182926121@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <569beab8.0c09620a.2d292.ffffce37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <002901d15189$451ccda0$cf5668e0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <009201d151fe$9dd46320$d97d2960$@icloud.com> <003c01d15204$ae5e2f90$0b1a8eb0$@com> <01bd01d152d1$d24c18e0$76e44aa0$@icloud.com> <006c01d152d3$728b1670$57a14350$@com> <386d28a091ccab405272fe0c0b0ce11a@mail.gmail.com> <46FBABBC-1E12-4620-A803-8269066F34BA@millersolar.com> Message-ID: I would have recommended SolarBOS here as well, but as of Jan 1 2016 they require a minimum 20 piece order. They also have not yet set up a distributor for smaller orders…seems like an oversight. Plan accordingly. Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 2:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop disconnect for multi tracker TLs Solar BOS makes some good disconnects. 4 pole disconnect: F2SK32-1-4XP. Less Expensive than Midnite Solar, but you have to buy directly from Solar BOS and the lead times can be longer. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan Project Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:44 PM, William Miller > wrote: August: Have you tried Sun Volt? We installed one of their switches and it worked out Ok. This will add 250 to 550 dollars to your job, of course. William On Jan 22, 2016, at 8:00 AM, August Goers > wrote: Wrenches, We have a few jurisdictions in the Bay Area that still require rooftop DC disconnects. We are installing a lot of SMA TL-22 inverters with dual MPPTs and if the system has more than 1 string it has been hard to source a good disconnect option (need 4 poles for switching two ungrounded strings). Does anyone have a good DC disconnect idea for this application? Best, August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Tue Jan 26 16:36:04 2016 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 13:36:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld-tax grant In-Reply-To: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <94105AB6-8AB3-45BB-B1DC-6061A8019254@pacific.net> I was talking on Saturday with a currently defunct contractor/installer getting involved with a new distribution channel who offered me the chance to buy 235-240 watt Solarworld modules at .45/watt by the pallet. Cash up front, order by this Friday. She said they were tier one and had been overbought and used the term "tax grant" as to why they were so cheap. The effective "sold" date would be 4 years ago. She stated they were legit SWs and would add my order to hers. No other useful info to offer here. Buyer beware... Wallace On Jan 20, 2016, at 3:22 PM, Drake wrote: > A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does anyone know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted distributor for bargain Solarworld modules? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jan 26 17:53:57 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:53:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I was fortunate enough to smell a rat and avoid the ASP fraudulent UL label fiasco, and as a matter of policy I refuse to buy anything from anyone but an established and respected distributor at a price that is realistic and sustainable. Closeouts on discontinued wattages from reputable dealers and bulk purchases from the manufacturer are reasonable risks, but that's as far as I would go. Incidentally, I'm servicing an Eaton/ASP PV250 inverter tomorrow that has failed (again). The whole mess is a lesson to avoid "too good to be true" prices. This poor system owner can't get anyone to help him... understandably. I always tell consumers the ASP story to scare them straight about low prices. ​Jason Szumlanski ​ On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Drake wrote: > A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does anyone > know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted distributor for > bargain Solarworld modules? > > Thanks, > > Drake > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 18:11:09 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 13:11:09 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld In-Reply-To: References: <20160120232249.A92DF4F805B@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Sunpower had a theft and this is close to what l was told was going on selling them, since Sunpower has the sn# there is no warranty with them either. Just a FYI On Jan 26, 2016 1:02 PM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I was fortunate enough to smell a rat and avoid the ASP fraudulent UL > label fiasco, and as a matter of policy I refuse to buy anything from > anyone but an established and respected distributor at a price that is > realistic and sustainable. Closeouts on discontinued wattages from > reputable dealers and bulk purchases from the manufacturer are reasonable > risks, but that's as far as I would go. > > Incidentally, I'm servicing an Eaton/ASP PV250 inverter tomorrow that has > failed (again). The whole mess is a lesson to avoid "too good to be true" > prices. This poor system owner can't get anyone to help him... > understandably. I always tell consumers the ASP story to scare them > straight about low prices. > > > ​Jason Szumlanski > > ​ > > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> A lot of ads for cheap Solarworld modules come into my inbox. Does anyone >> know why they are so cheap? Does anyone have a trusted distributor for >> bargain Solarworld modules? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 00:37:55 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:37:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers Message-ID: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Hi all I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Jan 27 02:21:42 2016 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 08:21:42 +0100 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01174D46-F9F1-41A7-8990-1F1FBE262889@solarenergy.org> But can you get proper torque with a compressible plastic washer in there? Probably Waytek has them. Brian > On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:37 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. > > I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. > > So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From amfrish at aeonsolar.com Wed Jan 27 09:11:48 2016 From: amfrish at aeonsolar.com (Allen Frishman) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:11:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's Message-ID: Wrenchers, What is the requirement for fusing 2 strings per MPPT? Specifically for an inverter like the Fronius Primo that has no integrated fuses. If you run 2 strings to each MPPT do you need to fuse each string? In this case there is a total of 4 strings which would need to be fused if using a single mppt. If the home runs are run in separate conduits from the array to limit the strings in the conduit to 2 per you still have all 4 strings together in the inverter. All thoughts and feedback are appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jan 27 08:02:30 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 08:02:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another engineer, eh? I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my favorite line. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between > SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. > > I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. > > So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From conradg at cape.com Wed Jan 27 09:36:37 2016 From: conradg at cape.com (Conrad Geyser) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:36:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic washers. Conrad Cotuit Solar Conrad Geyser, Principal Cotuit Solar LLC 508-428-8442 On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Another engineer, eh? > > I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, I > mean PV installations, can't be wrong. > > Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my > favorite line. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between >> SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. >> >> I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. >> >> So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to >> buy? >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Jan 27 09:43:39 2016 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:43:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay Please keep in mind that those plastic / synthetic washers have a high probability of deteriorating over the next several years creating a new set of issues. Peter American Solar ----- Original Message ----- From: Conrad Geyser To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers Jay, I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic washers. Conrad Cotuit Solar Conrad Geyser, Principal Cotuit Solar LLC 508-428-8442 On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Another engineer, eh? I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my favorite line. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: Hi all I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Wed Jan 27 11:26:48 2016 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (Wesley Kennedy) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:26:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CDC7DB2-02EB-4504-8D59-1DA9925E3FD9@yahoo.com> Hi Al, My understanding of dual mppt inverters is that they are treated nearly as two inverters on the DC side. The requirement for fusing on multi string arrays has to do with the reverse flow of current in the event of a fault on one of the strings. 2 strings are safe, 3 or more and you can damage the modules in the faulted string. The separate mppt inputs serve a similar purpose in the way they prevent current flow from the 2 strings on one mppt back thru a faulted string on the other mppt input -Wes 303-653-3073 > On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:11 AM, Allen Frishman wrote: > > Wrenchers, > What is the requirement for fusing 2 strings per MPPT? Specifically for an inverter like the Fronius Primo that has no integrated fuses. If you run 2 strings to each MPPT do you need to fuse each string? In this case there is a total of 4 strings which would need to be fused if using a single mppt. > > If the home runs are run in separate conduits from the array to limit the strings in the conduit to 2 per you still have all 4 strings together in the inverter. > > All thoughts and feedback are appreciated. > Al Frishman > AeonSolar > > (917) 699-6641 - cell > (888) 460-2867 > www.aeonsolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kjenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 11:56:37 2016 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com (Kurt Johnsen) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 11:56:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, There is the consideration of voiding any engineering that is being relied on for your protection. If there is a failure telling the judge that you followed the homeowners instructions is not going to get you off the hook. Kurt Kurt Johnsen Energy Systems On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Peter Giroux wrote: > Jay > > Please keep in mind that those plastic / synthetic washers have a high > probability of deteriorating over the next several years creating a new set > of issues. > > Peter > American Solar > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Conrad Geyser > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:36 AM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers > > Jay, > > I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a > reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless > fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with > anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic > washers. > > Conrad > Cotuit Solar > > > > > Conrad Geyser, Principal > Cotuit Solar LLC > 508-428-8442 > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Another engineer, eh? >> >> I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, >> I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. >> >> Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my >> favorite line. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between >>> SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. >>> >>> I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. >>> >>> So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to >>> buy? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Jan 27 12:12:19 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:12:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51D7CCEB-DA21-4BF1-9C84-FE11EB59210C@starlightsolar.com> One thing I have noticed is that many rack materials are a mixture of aluminum and other metals. I found out when trying to weld the material. It would be good to know just how dissimilar stainless is compared to the rack metal. Jay, I would ask them what good is the insulator if the bolt/screw still contacts the metal of both through the bolt touching each hole? Thank you, Larry On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:36 AM, Conrad Geyser wrote: Jay, I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic washers. Conrad Cotuit Solar Conrad Geyser, Principal Cotuit Solar LLC 508-428-8442 On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Another engineer, eh? I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my favorite line. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay > wrote: Hi all I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? Thanks Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 13:21:16 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 08:21:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Regarding the primo we just installed 5 at a location and used the midnite with the switch, (mnpv6 disco) its the only way on this inverter to perform any testing. With all the issues it helped out a great deal. Jerry On Jan 27, 2016 4:09 AM, "Allen Frishman" wrote: > Wrenchers, > What is the requirement for fusing 2 strings per MPPT? Specifically > for an inverter like the Fronius Primo that has no integrated fuses. If > you run 2 strings to each MPPT do you need to fuse each string? In this > case there is a total of 4 strings which would need to be fused if using a > single mppt. > > If the home runs are run in separate conduits from the array to limit the > strings in the conduit to 2 per you still have all 4 strings together in > the inverter. > > All thoughts and feedback are appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jan 27 13:10:49 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:10:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00E1FEA0-6ECC-4F62-B56B-35BCCD19DF34@millersolar.com> Jay: Conrad has a very pertinent point to make below. We are discovering that neither aluminum racking nor module frames hold up well in a marine environment. If you navigate to Miller Solar/case studies you will see photos and commentary about a particularly serious case of aluminum degradation. We pulled all of the equipment off the roof and we are waiting for advice from the rack and module manufacturers. Various ideas brainstormed do include plastic spacers to minimize al to al or al to ss contact. William Miller > On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:36 AM, Conrad Geyser wrote: > > Jay, > > I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic washers. > > Conrad > Cotuit Solar > > > > > Conrad Geyser, Principal > Cotuit Solar LLC > 508-428-8442 > >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> Another engineer, eh? >> >> I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. >> >> Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my favorite line. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: >>> Hi all >>> >>> I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. >>> >>> I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. >>> >>> So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 14:06:20 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 11:06:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <00E1FEA0-6ECC-4F62-B56B-35BCCD19DF34@millersolar.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <00E1FEA0-6ECC-4F62-B56B-35BCCD19DF34@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <053C38D4-8057-4152-A120-A965920F7F8F@gmail.com> The rack company general specialties recommends a SS washer between aluminum to aluminum, as in rack rails m Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 27, 2016, at 10:10 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > Conrad has a very pertinent point to make below. We are discovering that neither aluminum racking nor module frames hold up well in a marine environment. If you navigate to Miller Solar/case studies you will see photos and commentary about a particularly serious case of aluminum degradation. > > We pulled all of the equipment off the roof and we are waiting for advice from the rack and module manufacturers. Various ideas brainstormed do include plastic spacers to minimize al to al or al to ss contact. > > William Miller > >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:36 AM, Conrad Geyser wrote: >> >> Jay, >> >> I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic washers. >> >> Conrad >> Cotuit Solar >> >> >> >> >> Conrad Geyser, Principal >> Cotuit Solar LLC >> 508-428-8442 >> >>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Another engineer, eh? >>> >>> I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. >>> >>> Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my favorite line. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: >>>> Hi all >>>> >>>> I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. >>>> >>>> I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. >>>> >>>> So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 27 16:18:38 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 13:18:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <00E1FEA0-6ECC-4F62-B56B-35BCCD19DF34@millersolar.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <00E1FEA0-6ECC-4F62-B56B-35BCCD19DF34@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <010601d15948$4b0c7500$e1255f00$@sbcglobal.net> William, It appears that most (not all) of the damage you show on your website is due to incidental contact of bare copper with the aluminum. Also, dripping from bare copper to aluminum is a problem particularly in a marine environment. Lastly, the Coast Guard has been using unframed modules in marine environments for several decades because of problems they had with anodized aluminum in the 1980s in marine environments. Some module products prohibit installation in marine environments as well. Bottom line, there is no surprise that a marine environment will require significantly more maintenance than in Atascadero. Types of stainless hardware also needs to be more closely reviewed as stainless and aluminum still react with one another—just at a much lower rate that some other materials. There are materials recommendations for stainless types in marine environments that have been used for many decades for sailboats and the like. It makes little sense to design products for the marine environment unless it is specifically to satisfy that niche. Better choice of stainless hardware (not stainless clips), no bare copper, and consistent maintenance are probably your best options. There are a few frameless glass-on-glass modules that also might be an option moving forward. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 10:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers Jay: Conrad has a very pertinent point to make below. We are discovering that neither aluminum racking nor module frames hold up well in a marine environment. If you navigate to Miller Solar/case studies you will see photos and commentary about a particularly serious case of aluminum degradation. We pulled all of the equipment off the roof and we are waiting for advice from the rack and module manufacturers. Various ideas brainstormed do include plastic spacers to minimize al to al or al to ss contact. William Miller On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:36 AM, Conrad Geyser > wrote: Jay, I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic washers. Conrad Cotuit Solar Conrad Geyser, Principal Cotuit Solar LLC 508-428-8442 On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Another engineer, eh? I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my favorite line. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay > wrote: Hi all I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Wed Jan 27 20:31:22 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 17:31:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b344022a97655195ced29e564a31c54@mail.gmail.com> Al, As long as you only have a max of two strings going into each of the separate MPPT channels, no string fusing is needed. So with four strings, two on each MPPT input channel in the inverter, no string fusing is needed. This is one of the big advantages to having multiple MPPT channels in GT inverters. No need to run separate conduits either. All four PV string circuits can be run in a single conduit, as long as the conduit is properly sized for wire fill, of course. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Allen Frishman *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2016 6:12 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's Wrenchers, What is the requirement for fusing 2 strings per MPPT? Specifically for an inverter like the Fronius Primo that has no integrated fuses. If you run 2 strings to each MPPT do you need to fuse each string? In this case there is a total of 4 strings which would need to be fused if using a single mppt. If the home runs are run in separate conduits from the array to limit the strings in the conduit to 2 per you still have all 4 strings together in the inverter. All thoughts and feedback are appreciated. *Al Frishman* AeonSolar *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* *www.aeonsolar.com * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunmountain at netstep.net Wed Jan 27 20:57:10 2016 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 20:57:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transverter Total Smart Grid Solution Message-ID: Have any wrenches had any experience with Heart Transverters http://www.transverter.com/ I have a client who wants to use one to transition from a grid tied system to an off the the grid system Thanks Larry Brown Sun Mountain From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 20:44:36 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 17:44:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok here is the long form. Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal issues. It is a custom racking design to fit his house. Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering for hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. This is his 2nd ( more?) house. He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said including that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. I am going to do it for him. Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's looking for. Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 27, 2016, at 8:56 AM, Kurt Johnsen wrote: > > Jay, > > There is the consideration of voiding any engineering that is being relied on for your protection. If there is a failure telling the judge that you followed the homeowners instructions is not going to get you off the hook. > > Kurt > Kurt Johnsen Energy Systems > >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Peter Giroux wrote: >> Jay >> >> Please keep in mind that those plastic / synthetic washers have a high probability of deteriorating over the next several years creating a new set of issues. >> >> Peter >> American Solar >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Conrad Geyser >> To: RE-wrenches >> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:36 AM >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers >> >> Jay, >> >> I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic washers. >> >> Conrad >> Cotuit Solar >> >> >> >> >> Conrad Geyser, Principal >> Cotuit Solar LLC >> 508-428-8442 >> >>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Another engineer, eh? >>> >>> I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. >>> >>> Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my favorite line. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: >>>> Hi all >>>> >>>> I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. >>>> >>>> I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. >>>> >>>> So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 07:48:38 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 04:48:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V rated 6AWG wire Message-ID: Hello Friends! I am looking for 1000v rated #6awg wire suitable for running in conduit from roof top combiner down to the inverter....what are others using for this application? Ideally I would love to find some THHN or THWN-2 but with 1000v rating....any suggestions, sources? Application is from a SolarEdge commercial optimizers based array which puts out 850VDC.... Thank you! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Thu Jan 28 08:11:03 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 08:11:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V rated 6AWG wire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <188ec6f3725abfec94170ec773c7fae0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> The cheapest solution I have been able to find for this over the past 12 months has been PV wire. The other problem you might find is 1000V listed components to transition from PV wire to other types of wire. Matt On Thu, January 28, 2016 7:48 am, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Hello Friends! > I am looking for 1000v rated #6awg wire suitable for running in conduit > from roof top combiner down to the inverter....what are others using for > this application? Ideally I would love to find some THHN or THWN-2 but > with 1000v rating....any suggestions, sources? > Application is from a SolarEdge commercial optimizers based array which > puts out 850VDC.... Thank you! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 28 08:00:55 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 08:00:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you are going to do it, have you considered EPDM washers instead of plastic? Just a thought... I still wouldn't do it unless expressly endorsed by the manufacturer and/or engineer, but EPDM seems like a better option for longevity. ​Jason​ On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Jay wrote: > Ok here is the long form. > > Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal > issues. > It is a custom racking design to fit his house. > Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering for > hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners > Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. > This is his 2nd ( more?) house. > > He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said including > that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. > > I am going to do it for him. > Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's looking > for. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > On Jan 27, 2016, at 8:56 AM, Kurt Johnsen > wrote: > > Jay, > > There is the consideration of voiding any engineering that is being relied > on for your protection. If there is a failure telling the judge that you > followed the homeowners instructions is not going to get you off the hook. > > Kurt > Kurt Johnsen Energy Systems > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Peter Giroux > wrote: > >> Jay >> >> Please keep in mind that those plastic / synthetic washers have a >> high probability of deteriorating over the next several years creating a >> new set of issues. >> >> Peter >> American Solar >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Conrad Geyser >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:36 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers >> >> Jay, >> >> I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a >> reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless >> fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with >> anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic >> washers. >> >> Conrad >> Cotuit Solar >> >> >> >> >> Conrad Geyser, Principal >> Cotuit Solar LLC >> 508-428-8442 >> >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Another engineer, eh? >>> >>> I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, >>> I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. >>> >>> Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my >>> favorite line. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all >>>> >>>> I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers >>>> between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. >>>> >>>> I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. >>>> >>>> So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to >>>> buy? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 08:53:32 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick Shortell) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 08:53:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V rated 6AWG wire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirpal, Southwire makes 1000v rated USE up to 500MCM. Might want to oversize your conduit. Lotsa lube. Pat On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Hello Friends! > I am looking for 1000v rated #6awg wire suitable for running in conduit > from roof top combiner down to the inverter....what are others using for > this application? Ideally I would love to find some THHN or THWN-2 but with > 1000v rating....any suggestions, sources? > Application is from a SolarEdge commercial optimizers based array which > puts out 850VDC.... > Thank you! > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jan 28 09:49:50 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 07:49:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> Hey Jay, I’m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate the module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both are grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential (different length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high voltage into the array in event of a near lightning strike. Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate the bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the holes? Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Jay wrote: Ok here is the long form. Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal issues. It is a custom racking design to fit his house. Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering for hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. This is his 2nd ( more?) house. He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said including that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. I am going to do it for him. Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's looking for. Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 10:25:02 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 07:25:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <18D468F6-F3DF-496E-9B5A-AF6C1A7218EA@gmail.com> Hi Larry I wasn't planning on installing anything between al and al. Just between SS and al. So the module will still be bolted directly to the al rack material. I'm not too worried about the grounding, and certainly not worried enough to install lay in lugs with copper to each module. As lones pointed out, there are parts that would insulate the bolt. But as the owner hasn't requested that, not going to suggest it! I sure didn't plan on stirring the pot like this. Just really wanted some help on sourcing the washers Thanks Jay Peltz power > On Jan 28, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Hey Jay, > > I’m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate the module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both are grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential (different length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high voltage into the array in event of a near lightning strike. > > Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate the bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the holes? Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Jay wrote: > > Ok here is the long form. > > Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal issues. > It is a custom racking design to fit his house. > Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering for hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners > Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. > This is his 2nd ( more?) house. > > He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said including that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. > > I am going to do it for him. > Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's looking for. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 10:14:48 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 07:14:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E157003-C13F-40B9-892A-EC8044731241@gmail.com> Hi Jason, It's part of why I asked because I'm not sure the best material. I always thought of Epdm as pretty soft? If you have a supplier let us know Jay > On Jan 28, 2016, at 5:00 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > If you are going to do it, have you considered EPDM washers instead of plastic? Just a thought... I still wouldn't do it unless expressly endorsed by the manufacturer and/or engineer, but EPDM seems like a better option for longevity. > > ​Jason​ > > > >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Jay wrote: >> Ok here is the long form. >> >> Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal issues. >> It is a custom racking design to fit his house. >> Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering for hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners >> Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. >> This is his 2nd ( more?) house. >> >> He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said including that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. >> >> I am going to do it for him. >> Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's looking for. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 8:56 AM, Kurt Johnsen wrote: >>> >>> Jay, >>> >>> There is the consideration of voiding any engineering that is being relied on for your protection. If there is a failure telling the judge that you followed the homeowners instructions is not going to get you off the hook. >>> >>> Kurt >>> Kurt Johnsen Energy Systems >>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Peter Giroux wrote: >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> Please keep in mind that those plastic / synthetic washers have a high probability of deteriorating over the next several years creating a new set of issues. >>>> >>>> Peter >>>> American Solar >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Conrad Geyser >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:36 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers >>>> >>>> Jay, >>>> >>>> I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic washers. >>>> >>>> Conrad >>>> Cotuit Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Conrad Geyser, Principal >>>> Cotuit Solar LLC >>>> 508-428-8442 >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> Another engineer, eh? >>>>> >>>>> I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. >>>>> >>>>> Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my favorite line. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: >>>>>> Hi all >>>>>> >>>>>> I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. >>>>>> >>>>>> So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to buy? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> Peltz power. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 28 13:15:59 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:15:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <18D468F6-F3DF-496E-9B5A-AF6C1A7218EA@gmail.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> <18D468F6-F3DF-496E-9B5A-AF6C1A7218EA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56AA5ADF.6040009@solarray.com> I would use a SS washer with integrated Neoprene rubber gasket. We use them on roof work, and Unirac uses them under the lag on their roof flashings. Image result for neoprene washers https://www.copperstate.com/shop/429/neoprene-washers Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/28/2016 8:25 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Larry > > I wasn't planning on installing anything between al and al. Just > between SS and al. So the module will still be bolted directly to the > al rack material. I'm not too worried about the grounding, and > certainly not worried enough to install lay in lugs with copper to > each module. > > As lones pointed out, there are parts that would insulate the bolt. > But as the owner hasn't requested that, not going to suggest it! > > I sure didn't plan on stirring the pot like this. > Just really wanted some help on sourcing the washers > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power > > On Jan 28, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > > wrote: > >> Hey Jay, >> >> I’m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate >> the module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both >> are grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential >> (different length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high >> voltage into the array in event of a near lightning strike. >> >> Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate >> the bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the >> holes? Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Jay > > wrote: >> >> Ok here is the long form. >> >> Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal >> issues. >> It is a custom racking design to fit his house. >> Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering >> for hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners >> Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. >> This is his 2nd ( more?) house. >> >> He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said >> including that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. >> >> I am going to do it for him. >> Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's >> looking for. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: images Type: image/jpeg Size: 3920 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 13:19:21 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:19:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <56AA5ADF.6040009@solarray.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> <18D468F6-F3DF-496E-9B5A-AF6C1A7218EA@gmail.com> <56AA5ADF.6040009@solarray.com> Message-ID: <4CDF2CA1-B688-4E14-A859-1D7474A124C6@gmail.com> My hesitation to that is the compressibility of the neoprene. One of the things I like about nylon or similar hard plastics is they don’t compress so you do get a ridged structure. jay peltz power > On Jan 28, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I would use a SS washer with integrated Neoprene rubber gasket. We use them on roof work, and Unirac uses them under the lag on their roof flashings. > > https://www.copperstate.com/shop/429/neoprene-washers > > Thanks, > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 1/28/2016 8:25 AM, Jay wrote: >> Hi Larry >> >> I wasn't planning on installing anything between al and al. Just between SS and al. So the module will still be bolted directly to the al rack material. I'm not too worried about the grounding, and certainly not worried enough to install lay in lugs with copper to each module. >> >> As lones pointed out, there are parts that would insulate the bolt. >> But as the owner hasn't requested that, not going to suggest it! >> >> I sure didn't plan on stirring the pot like this. >> Just really wanted some help on sourcing the washers >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> On Jan 28, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com > wrote: >> >>> Hey Jay, >>> >>> I’m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate the module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both are grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential (different length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high voltage into the array in event of a near lightning strike. >>> >>> Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate the bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the holes? Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. >>> >>> Larry Crutcher >>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Jan 28 14:05:19 2016 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 09:05:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Net 30 Terms scam to be aware of... Message-ID: Wrenches, Quick heads up...I got a email ,supposedly from Ferris University in Michigan, wanting to purchase 70 Morningstar charge controllers on net 30 terms. I quick call to the actual procurement officer ended the deal as it was a hoax. I decided to take it a bit further and ask for references to setup the net 30 account. They actually did. DUNS number, Local Banker and supply houses. I didn't take it any further. When speaking to the real procurement officer he said they have seen this before with office equipment but recently the operation has moved on to renewable energy equipment. It was all pretty obvious what was happening, just thought I would spread the word. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 440 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 28 14:23:51 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 12:23:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <4CDF2CA1-B688-4E14-A859-1D7474A124C6@gmail.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> <18D468F6-F3DF-496E-9B5A-AF6C1A7218EA@gmail.com> <56AA5ADF.6040009@solarray.com> <4CDF2CA1-B688-4E14-A859-1D7474A124C6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56AA6AC7.60608@solarray.com> We just had that same concern, but once you torque the connection down there was no noticeable movement. As someone else mentioned the plastics can be tough to hold up to UV, temperature, compression, and thermal cycling. Once that hard plastic cracks and falls out, you definitely will have a loose connection. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/28/2016 11:19 AM, jay wrote: > My hesitation to that is the compressibility of the neoprene. > > One of the things I like about nylon or similar hard plastics is they > don’t compress so you do get a ridged structure. > > jay > > peltz power >> On Jan 28, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Ray Walters > > wrote: >> >> I would use a SS washer with integrated Neoprene rubber gasket. We >> use them on roof work, and Unirac uses them under the lag on their >> roof flashings. >> >> https://www.copperstate.com/shop/429/neoprene-washers >> >> Thanks, >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 1/28/2016 8:25 AM, Jay wrote: >>> Hi Larry >>> >>> I wasn't planning on installing anything between al and al. Just >>> between SS and al. So the module will still be bolted directly to >>> the al rack material. I'm not too worried about the grounding, and >>> certainly not worried enough to install lay in lugs with copper to >>> each module. >>> >>> As lones pointed out, there are parts that would insulate the bolt. >>> But as the owner hasn't requested that, not going to suggest it! >>> >>> I sure didn't plan on stirring the pot like this. >>> Just really wanted some help on sourcing the washers >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power >>> >>> On Jan 28, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Jay, >>>> >>>> I’m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate >>>> the module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both >>>> are grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential >>>> (different length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high >>>> voltage into the array in event of a near lightning strike. >>>> >>>> Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate >>>> the bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the >>>> holes? Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. >>>> >>>> Larry Crutcher >>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> >>>> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 13:35:17 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 14:35:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <56AA5ADF.6040009@solarray.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> <18D468F6-F3DF-496E-9B5A-AF6C1A7218EA@gmail.com> <56AA5ADF.6040009@solarray.com> Message-ID: Our house is on the ocean, in the Caribbean. If you are using something like SnapNRack, where a stainless bolt goes through an aluminium channel nut, use Permatex or it will seize. Other than that, I have not seen racking corrosion in eight years on the roof. Put all the clamps, bolts, nuts etc, in a bucket and spray it all with Permatex anti seize. It will be messy but very effective. You'll have fingerprints on the modules but oh, well. On Jan 28, 2016 2:16 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > I would use a SS washer with integrated Neoprene rubber gasket. We use > them on roof work, and Unirac uses them under the lag on their roof > flashings. > [image: Image result for neoprene washers] > https://www.copperstate.com/shop/429/neoprene-washers > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 1/28/2016 8:25 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Larry > > I wasn't planning on installing anything between al and al. Just between > SS and al. So the module will still be bolted directly to the al rack > material. I'm not too worried about the grounding, and certainly not > worried enough to install lay in lugs with copper to each module. > > As lones pointed out, there are parts that would insulate the bolt. > But as the owner hasn't requested that, not going to suggest it! > > I sure didn't plan on stirring the pot like this. > Just really wanted some help on sourcing the washers > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power > > On Jan 28, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < > larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > > Hey Jay, > > I’m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate the > module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both are > grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential (different > length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high voltage into the > array in event of a near lightning strike. > > Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate the > bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the holes? > Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Jay wrote: > > Ok here is the long form. > > Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal > issues. > It is a custom racking design to fit his house. > Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering for > hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners > Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. > This is his 2nd ( more?) house. > > He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said including > that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. > > I am going to do it for him. > Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's looking > for. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: images Type: image/jpeg Size: 3920 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 14:27:20 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:27:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <56AA6AC7.60608@solarray.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> <18D468F6-F3DF-496E-9B5A-AF6C1A7218EA@gmail.com> <56AA5ADF.6040009@solarray.com> <4CDF2CA1-B688-4E14-A859-1D7474A124C6@gmail.com> <56AA6AC7.60608@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0B1CF5BF-FE52-42DE-BEB6-5F8C9FFABCC1@gmail.com> Yea its tough. I’m trying to make sure I do it right ( whatever that is at this point) and what the customer wants. I”ll check to see if this meets with his approval. Might be the way to go. Thanks for the update as to it being tight. I”m guessing here, but I can hear him say “ yes but that rubber will compress over time, and then we’ll have the SS washer touching the rail” vs what everyone else is saying “ that the plastic will fail and then it’ll be SS on AL anyway. 1 step forward, 3 steps back. jay > On Jan 28, 2016, at 11:23 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > We just had that same concern, but once you torque the connection down there was no noticeable movement. As someone else mentioned the plastics can be tough to hold up to UV, temperature, compression, and thermal cycling. Once that hard plastic cracks and falls out, you definitely will have a loose connection. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 1/28/2016 11:19 AM, jay wrote: >> My hesitation to that is the compressibility of the neoprene. >> >> One of the things I like about nylon or similar hard plastics is they don’t compress so you do get a ridged structure. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >>> On Jan 28, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Ray Walters < ray at solarray.com > wrote: >>> >>> I would use a SS washer with integrated Neoprene rubber gasket. We use them on roof work, and Unirac uses them under the lag on their roof flashings. >>> >>> https://www.copperstate.com/shop/429/neoprene-washers >>> >>> Thanks, >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 1/28/2016 8:25 AM, Jay wrote: >>>> Hi Larry >>>> >>>> I wasn't planning on installing anything between al and al. Just between SS and al. So the module will still be bolted directly to the al rack material. I'm not too worried about the grounding, and certainly not worried enough to install lay in lugs with copper to each module. >>>> >>>> As lones pointed out, there are parts that would insulate the bolt. >>>> But as the owner hasn't requested that, not going to suggest it! >>>> >>>> I sure didn't plan on stirring the pot like this. >>>> Just really wanted some help on sourcing the washers >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz power >>>> >>>> On Jan 28, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey Jay, >>>>> >>>>> I’m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate the module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both are grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential (different length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high voltage into the array in event of a near lightning strike. >>>>> >>>>> Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate the bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the holes? Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. >>>>> >>>>> Larry Crutcher >>>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gordon.woodcock at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 15:12:33 2016 From: gordon.woodcock at gmail.com (Gordon Woodcock) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 15:12:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers Message-ID: You can get some pretty exotic polymers if you want to go that route. I've used Kynar before in strongly oxidizing environments; although, I've never used it with a PV install. On a related note, does anyone have any experience with Dura-Con or similar products? That might be an alternative to plastic washers. Thanks, Gordon > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 07:14:48 -0800 > From: Jay > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers > Message-ID: <7E157003-C13F-40B9-892A-EC8044731241 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Jason, > > It's part of why I asked because I'm not sure the best material. > I always thought of Epdm as pretty soft? > > If you have a supplier let us know > > Jay > > > On Jan 28, 2016, at 5:00 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > > If you are going to do it, have you considered EPDM washers instead of > plastic? Just a thought... I still wouldn't do it unless expressly endorsed > by the manufacturer and/or engineer, but EPDM seems like a better option > for longevity. > > > > ?Jason? > > > > > > > >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Jay wrote: > >> Ok here is the long form. > >> > >> Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal > issues. > >> It is a custom racking design to fit his house. > >> Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering > for hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners > >> Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. > >> This is his 2nd ( more?) house. > >> > >> He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said > including that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. > >> > >> I am going to do it for him. > >> Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's > looking for. > >> > >> Jay > >> > >> Peltz power. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 8:56 AM, Kurt Johnsen > wrote: > >>> > >>> Jay, > >>> > >>> There is the consideration of voiding any engineering that is being > relied on for your protection. If there is a failure telling the judge that > you followed the homeowners instructions is not going to get you off the > hook. > >>> > >>> Kurt > >>> Kurt Johnsen Energy Systems > >>> > >>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Peter Giroux > wrote: > >>>> Jay > >>>> > >>>> Please keep in mind that those plastic / synthetic washers have a > high probability of deteriorating over the next several years creating a > new set of issues. > >>>> > >>>> Peter > >>>> American Solar > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: Conrad Geyser > >>>> To: RE-wrenches > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:36 AM > >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers > >>>> > >>>> Jay, > >>>> > >>>> I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do > have a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless > fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with > anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic > washers. > >>>> > >>>> Conrad > >>>> Cotuit Solar > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Conrad Geyser, Principal > >>>> Cotuit Solar LLC > >>>> 508-428-8442 > >>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >>>>> Another engineer, eh? > >>>>> > >>>>> I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis > fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my > favorite line. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Jason Szumlanski > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: > >>>>>> Hi all > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers > between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where > to buy? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Jay > >>>>>> Peltz power. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>>>> > >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>>> > >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>>> > >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>>> > >>>>> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >>>>> > >>>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>>> > >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >>>> > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >>>> > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160128/ccb47911/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:15:59 -0700 > From: Ray Walters > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers > Message-ID: <56AA5ADF.6040009 at solarray.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" > > I would use a SS washer with integrated Neoprene rubber gasket. We use > them on roof work, and Unirac uses them under the lag on their roof > flashings. > Image result for neoprene washers > https://www.copperstate.com/shop/429/neoprene-washers > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/28/2016 8:25 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Larry > > > > I wasn't planning on installing anything between al and al. Just > > between SS and al. So the module will still be bolted directly to the > > al rack material. I'm not too worried about the grounding, and > > certainly not worried enough to install lay in lugs with copper to > > each module. > > > > As lones pointed out, there are parts that would insulate the bolt. > > But as the owner hasn't requested that, not going to suggest it! > > > > I sure didn't plan on stirring the pot like this. > > Just really wanted some help on sourcing the washers > > > > Thanks > > > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > > On Jan 28, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > wrote: > > > >> Hey Jay, > >> > >> I?m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate > >> the module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both > >> are grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential > >> (different length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high > >> voltage into the array in event of a near lightning strike. > >> > >> Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate > >> the bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the > >> holes? Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. > >> > >> Larry Crutcher > >> Starlight Solar Power Systems > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Jay >> > wrote: > >> > >> Ok here is the long form. > >> > >> Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal > >> issues. > >> It is a custom racking design to fit his house. > >> Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering > >> for hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners > >> Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. > >> This is his 2nd ( more?) house. > >> > >> He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said > >> including that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. > >> > >> I am going to do it for him. > >> Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's > >> looking for. > >> > >> Jay > >> > >> Peltz power. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160128/d2091d65/attachment-0001.htm > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: images > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 3920 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160128/d2091d65/attachment-0001.jpeg > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:19:21 -0800 > From: jay > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers > Message-ID: <4CDF2CA1-B688-4E14-A859-1D7474A124C6 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > My hesitation to that is the compressibility of the neoprene. > > One of the things I like about nylon or similar hard plastics is they > don?t compress so you do get a ridged structure. > > jay > > peltz power > > On Jan 28, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > > > I would use a SS washer with integrated Neoprene rubber gasket. We use > them on roof work, and Unirac uses them under the lag on their roof > flashings. > > > > https://www.copperstate.com/shop/429/neoprene-washers < > https://www.copperstate.com/shop/429/neoprene-washers> > > > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/28/2016 8:25 AM, Jay wrote: > >> Hi Larry > >> > >> I wasn't planning on installing anything between al and al. Just > between SS and al. So the module will still be bolted directly to the al > rack material. I'm not too worried about the grounding, and certainly not > worried enough to install lay in lugs with copper to each module. > >> > >> As lones pointed out, there are parts that would insulate the bolt. > >> But as the owner hasn't requested that, not going to suggest it! > >> > >> I sure didn't plan on stirring the pot like this. > >> Just really wanted some help on sourcing the washers > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Jay > >> Peltz power > >> > >> On Jan 28, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com>larry at starlightsolar.com larry at starlightsolar.com>> wrote: > >> > >>> Hey Jay, > >>> > >>> I?m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate the > module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both are > grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential (different > length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high voltage into the > array in event of a near lightning strike. > >>> > >>> Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate > the bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the holes? > Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. > >>> > >>> Larry Crutcher > >>> Starlight Solar Power Systems > >>> > >>> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160128/f71fda67/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 9, Issue 33 > ****************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jan 28 16:48:58 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 14:48:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> <18D468F6-F3DF-496E-9B5A-AF6C1A7218EA@gmail.com> <56AA5ADF.6040009@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56AA8CCA.10002@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 3920 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 28 16:58:14 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 16:58:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <7E157003-C13F-40B9-892A-EC8044731241@gmail.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <7E157003-C13F-40B9-892A-EC8044731241@gmail.com> Message-ID: You can buy sheets and cut or stamp to size. http://www.mscdirect.com/industrialtools/epdm-rubber-sheet.html I'm sure there are pre-cut EPDM washers out there. EPDM is routinely bonded to washers and screw flanges for fastening brackets and metal roofing material, so I don't see why it would be too soft for similar applications where separating metals is the goal. Obviously you wouldn't want a 1/4" thick piece. On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Jason, > > It's part of why I asked because I'm not sure the best material. > I always thought of Epdm as pretty soft? > > If you have a supplier let us know > > Jay > > On Jan 28, 2016, at 5:00 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > If you are going to do it, have you considered EPDM washers instead of > plastic? Just a thought... I still wouldn't do it unless expressly endorsed > by the manufacturer and/or engineer, but EPDM seems like a better option > for longevity. > > ​Jason​ > > > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Jay wrote: > >> Ok here is the long form. >> >> Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal >> issues. >> It is a custom racking design to fit his house. >> Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering for >> hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners >> Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. >> This is his 2nd ( more?) house. >> >> He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said including >> that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. >> >> I am going to do it for him. >> Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's looking >> for. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 8:56 AM, Kurt Johnsen >> wrote: >> >> Jay, >> >> There is the consideration of voiding any engineering that is being >> relied on for your protection. If there is a failure telling the judge that >> you followed the homeowners instructions is not going to get you off the >> hook. >> >> Kurt >> Kurt Johnsen Energy Systems >> >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Peter Giroux >> wrote: >> >>> Jay >>> >>> Please keep in mind that those plastic / synthetic washers have a >>> high probability of deteriorating over the next several years creating a >>> new set of issues. >>> >>> Peter >>> American Solar >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Conrad Geyser >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:36 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers >>> >>> Jay, >>> >>> I would suggest that he has a point, that the dissimilar metals do have >>> a reaction. But that the reaction is self limiting and that stainless >>> fasteners with aluminum are used in marine applications albeit only with >>> anodized aluminum. Or say fine and invoice accordingly for the plastic >>> washers. >>> >>> Conrad >>> Cotuit Solar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Conrad Geyser, Principal >>> Cotuit Solar LLC >>> 508-428-8442 >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Another engineer, eh? >>>> >>>> I'd say no... Tell him to find another installer. 50 million Elvis >>>> fans, I mean PV installations, can't be wrong. >>>> >>>> Ask him if he brings his own scissors to the hairdresser? That's my >>>> favorite line. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Jay wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all >>>>> >>>>> I've got a client who insists on "plastic " ( synthetic) washers >>>>> between SS washers and the aluminum racking and modules. >>>>> >>>>> I'm tried every angle to assure him it's not a problem to no effect. >>>>> >>>>> So anybody have any recommendations about type, material, and where to >>>>> buy? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> Peltz power. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 28 17:25:44 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 15:25:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction Message-ID: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> Hi All; We're looking to improve our battery box construction, and are considering using 1/8" think polypropylene sheeting. I've used small premade boxes before, but this will be for a HUP install, and we would want to build the box around the batteries after. Does anyone have experience/ comments on welding plastic? The alternative would be to just seal the seams with acid resistant caulking. (silicone, Geocell, ?) I've had good luck in the past just using 10 mil plastic sheeting stapled up on the inside of a plywood box, but we will be scooting 1000 lb batteries around on it, so I don't think the sheeting will hold up. Thanks, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From dave at independentpowerllc.com Thu Jan 28 18:16:09 2016 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 18:16:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> Message-ID: <037201d15a21$dfa26ec0$9ee74c40$@com> Ray, As an option for the plywood box with the 10 mil poly lining. You can do two layers of the poly liner and also protect it with two lengths of 1 x 3 wood strapping on the floor of the box to support the heavy batteries and protect the poly liner. I have done this for years with no problems. Cut the 1 x 3's shorter than the length of your box and sand the wood completely with special attention to rounding the corners and edges so that the wood is smooth against the poly. Once you get one battery in place the wood strapping does not move and you can pretty easily move the other cells into place. I sprinkle baking soda on the bottom of the box before installing the cells. The plywood has held up well for twenty years or more, even with people who add too much distilled water > and create some electrolyte overflow upon charging. It gets a little stinky in the box then, but the double lined poly has never failed me because it is designed right and installed with care. Alternatively you can use another material to protect your poly liner such as the polypropylene sheeting that you are thinking of using to build your box. Again, cut it smaller than your footprint of the plywood box and round all of the edges off the sheeting material to protect the liner from being cut. Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home plywood box with the -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 5:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction Hi All; We're looking to improve our battery box construction, and are considering using 1/8" think polypropylene sheeting. I've used small premade boxes before, but this will be for a HUP install, and we would want to build the box around the batteries after. Does anyone have experience/ comments on welding plastic? The alternative would be to just seal the seams with acid resistant caulking. (silicone, Geocell, ?) I've had good luck in the past just using 10 mil plastic sheeting stapled up on the inside of a plywood box, but we will be scooting 1000 lb batteries around on it, so I don't think the sheeting will hold up. Thanks, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Jan 28 19:58:50 2016 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 19:58:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56AAB94A.9040001@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: b-box4.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 308831 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jan 28 20:35:25 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 18:35:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56AAC1DD.9010601@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jan 28 21:06:52 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 18:06:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: <56AAC1DD.9010601@sindelarsolar.com> References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> <56AAC1DD.9010601@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <56AAC93C.7030003@psln.com> Add to the list...I've had good luck with Grace roofing underlayment: tough and to a degree, self-healing, sticks to itself (and anything it comes in contact with) very well making seams secure, easy to find at building supply store, sticks aggressively to battery box sides without mechanical fasteners, experience has shown it resists acid. As with other solutions, something to uniformly distribute the weight and irregular bottoms of batteries should be employed. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 www.frenergy.net On 1/28/2016 5:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Ray, > Just a couple of weeks ago we installed a 24V HUP set in an existing > installation. We had an existing plywood battery box made of Baltic > Birch (the 9-ply 12mm thick plywood typically used for cabinet drawer > carcases) with a liner made of 40(?)-mil pond liner material. We > removed the six cells from the steel case, set the case in place in > the plywood box and lowered the cells into it. However, the box had a > non-removable 5" wide strip across the top rear, and we needed to > slide the entire 1100 pound case back about 8" in order to fit both > steel cases. > > Before setting the steel case in the box I sprayed the floor of the > pond liner with a layer of the new spray pulling lube from Klein > Tools, then set the steel case in place and lowered the cells. Using a > Porta-Power and some blocking, we slid the case into place with little > effort. > > You might find that vinyl pond liner works well in a plywood box. We > found it at a Home Depot. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > On 1/28/2016 3:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> Hi All; >> >> We're looking to improve our battery box construction, and are >> considering using 1/8" think polypropylene sheeting. I've used small >> premade boxes before, but this will be for a HUP install, and we >> would want to build the box around the batteries after. Does anyone >> have experience/ comments on welding plastic? The alternative would >> be to just seal the seams with acid resistant caulking. (silicone, >> Geocell, ?) >> I've had good luck in the past just using 10 mil plastic sheeting >> stapled up on the inside of a plywood box, but we will be scooting >> 1000 lb batteries around on it, so I don't think the sheeting will >> hold up. >> >> Thanks, >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Thu Jan 28 23:52:38 2016 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:52:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's Message-ID: <20160128215238.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.0dffc57c5c.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 29 00:18:20 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 22:18:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: <56AAC93C.7030003@psln.com> References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> <56AAC1DD.9010601@sindelarsolar.com> <56AAC93C.7030003@psln.com> Message-ID: <56AAF61C.9030603@solarray.com> Thanks for all the replies so far. I've tried foundation waterproofing membrane for a couple of years, but found it will deteriorate in high acid concentrations. IT gets all gooey and begins to dissolve. It had peel N stick adhesive, and seemed like a good idea, until later. (it was HDPE?) I've seen construction 10 mil plastic sheeting hold a gal of acid for many months, so I know that at least works for acid. The pond liner looks good as well as Roy's wall plastic, but the 1/8" polypropylene would seem to be possibly more durable for about the same $$. Plastic welding looks relatively easy with a heat gun and special tip on a soldering iron, too. I'll report back on what we actually do. As always thanks for the input, and I welcome all further comments. I feel battery enclosures are a somewhat neglected part of off grid design. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/28/2016 7:06 PM, frenergy wrote: > Add to the list...I've had good luck with Grace roofing underlayment: > tough and to a degree, self-healing, sticks to itself (and anything it > comes in contact with) very well making seams secure, easy to find at > building supply store, sticks aggressively to battery box sides > without mechanical fasteners, experience has shown it resists acid. > As with other solutions, something to uniformly distribute the weight > and irregular bottoms of batteries should be employed. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > www.frenergy.net > > > On 1/28/2016 5:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> Ray, >> Just a couple of weeks ago we installed a 24V HUP set in an existing >> installation. We had an existing plywood battery box made of Baltic >> Birch (the 9-ply 12mm thick plywood typically used for cabinet drawer >> carcases) with a liner made of 40(?)-mil pond liner material. We >> removed the six cells from the steel case, set the case in place in >> the plywood box and lowered the cells into it. However, the box had a >> non-removable 5" wide strip across the top rear, and we needed to >> slide the entire 1100 pound case back about 8" in order to fit both >> steel cases. >> >> Before setting the steel case in the box I sprayed the floor of the >> pond liner with a layer of the new spray pulling lube from Klein >> Tools, then set the steel case in place and lowered the cells. Using >> a Porta-Power and some blocking, we slid the case into place with >> little effort. >> >> You might find that vinyl pond liner works well in a plywood box. We >> found it at a Home Depot. >> Allan >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> ** >> >> On 1/28/2016 3:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>> Hi All; >>> >>> We're looking to improve our battery box construction, and are >>> considering using 1/8" think polypropylene sheeting. I've used >>> small premade boxes before, but this will be for a HUP install, and >>> we would want to build the box around the batteries after. Does >>> anyone have experience/ comments on welding plastic? The >>> alternative would be to just seal the seams with acid resistant >>> caulking. (silicone, Geocell, ?) >>> I've had good luck in the past just using 10 mil plastic sheeting >>> stapled up on the inside of a plywood box, but we will be scooting >>> 1000 lb batteries around on it, so I don't think the sheeting will >>> hold up. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Fri Jan 29 00:48:51 2016 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 22:48:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries Message-ID: <20160128224851.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c7a30b5a4c.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jan 29 09:30:45 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:30:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries, Was LiFePO4 Message-ID: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> To All, Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”. Thanks, Christopher From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of don at energysolarnow.com Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49 To: Dan Fink Cc: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan. I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries. It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to kick on each morning even in the summer. This is even worse in cold winter weather. Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share? Thanks Don Barch Energy Solar don at energysolarnow.com Message: 2 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 15:51:26 -0700 From: Dan Fink To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hello Mark; My NiFes went in last March, I'm almost at a year living with them off the grid. To avoid writing a novel here I'll group my comments into Oddities, Advantages and Disadvantages. Advantages: ~ at least 25 year lifespan ~ 10 year warranty ~ Can add more parallel strings at any time/age, just drain and replace electrolyte of old batteries ~ 80% depth of discharge no problem, so can size smaller amp-hour capacity Oddities: ~ alkaline electrolyte, neutralize spills and clean tops with white vinegar ~ Specific gravity of electrolyte does not change with state of charge so a hydrometer is useless ~ Charge / discharge efficiency changes greatly with state of charge. Sometimes my Magnum ME-BMK amp hour meter matches the Midnite Whizbang Jr exactly, sometimes they are way off from each other. For ground truth, the state of charge vs. voltage curve from the battery manufacturer seems right on, not counting false readings when the batteries are not at rest for a couple hours. ~ Fooling PV MPPT charge controllers into dealing with NiFes involves setting a very long and high Absorb voltage ~ Charge efficiency is great up to 80% state of charge, but after that drops way off. Above 80% SOC these batteries want to see 1.65v per cell to really fill up. No problem for modern MPPT PV controllers, but- ~ Some inverter / chargers (Magnum here) freak out and shut down at 1.6v per cell, so the solution from the battery manufacturer is- ~ Run fewer cells during times of year when charging is frequent from the generator, put the extra cells back in the string during times of year when the charging is mostly PV. Sitting uncharged does not damage these "extra" cells. ~ So I am running a 10.8v battery bank right now, will bring it back to 12v this spring. No big deal, but does affect inverter surge capacity. Would not be as much of a problem at 24v or 48v. ~ Disadvantages: ~ The high Absorb voltage to get that last 20% SOC efficiently bubbles through a lot of distilled water. My schedule is 1-2 gallons every 40 days, and the company sends a reminder email at that interval. ~ The bubbling gets the tops dirty fast. A cleaning every 40 days is about right. ~ High cost ~ Twiddling with string voltages semi-annually. This would not be an issue if most charging is from PV. My thoughts: My overall impression of being married to NiFes way off the grid has so far been favorable.In a grid standby situation, I think string voltage twiddling would be a non-issue, who cares about the last 20% of SOC charge efficiency in that situation? Off the grid with daily cycling, generator use, etc, I would not consider these to be batteries for off-grid beginners. But anyone who has been off grid for a few years with lead acid batteries will immediately appreciate the advantages and only occasionally curse the quirks of Nife. Plans here: Increase my PV by about 30%. Cheap and easy, no more taking cells in and out of the string, and less winter generator run time. Get 'em to 80% on genny during tough snowbound times and let PV do the rest. Figure out some Arduino solution for monitoring when Peukert's exponent changes depending on SOC. Complain to inverter/charger manufacturers to make them work better with NiFe. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor? for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers? 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jan 29 09:55:06 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 07:55:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> References: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that conversation: Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD. And this: The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match the first chart I posted. On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: To All, Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”. Thanks, Christopher From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of don at energysolarnow.com Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49 To: Dan Fink Cc: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan. I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries. It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to kick on each morning even in the summer. This is even worse in cold winter weather. Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share? Thanks Don Barch Energy Solar don at energysolarnow.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: egcjjhdh..png Type: image/png Size: 71704 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 08:50:45 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:50:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plastic washers In-Reply-To: <56AA8CCA.10002@sindelarsolar.com> References: <4EEEE2F1-BCF6-4508-82B5-0AC7B59F3342@gmail.com> <8147975D-2C0B-4105-A98E-D11B66723280@starlightsolar.com> <18D468F6-F3DF-496E-9B5A-AF6C1A7218EA@gmail.com> <56AA5ADF.6040009@solarray.com> <56AA8CCA.10002@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I have that also and it is OKAY, but for a highly corrosive location, the spray gives a lot of extra protection. Chris Mason Comet Systems Anguilla (264) 235-5670 St. Kitts (869) 662-5670 skype netconcepts NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Renewable Energy Systems professional Generac Generators Factory technician On Jan 28, 2016 5:49 PM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > Chris, > As only the threads of all SS bolts need anti-seize, there's a much neater > method. Anti-seize is available in a solid twist-to-extend tube that is > neat and easy to use. One light swipe across the make threads of each bolt > - doesn't take much to prevent galling. > I checked in my toolbag - I'm holding a tube of Loctite Quickstix Silver > Grade Anti-Seize, product #37230. Probably got it through Fastenal. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 1/28/2016 11:35 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > Our house is on the ocean, in the Caribbean. If you are using something > like SnapNRack, where a stainless bolt goes through an aluminium channel > nut, use Permatex or it will seize. Other than that, I have not seen > racking corrosion in eight years on the roof. Put all the clamps, bolts, > nuts etc, in a bucket and spray it all with Permatex anti seize. It will be > messy but very effective. You'll have fingerprints on the modules but oh, > well. > On Jan 28, 2016 2:16 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > >> I would use a SS washer with integrated Neoprene rubber gasket. We use >> them on roof work, and Unirac uses them under the lag on their roof >> flashings. >> [image: Image result for neoprene washers] >> https://www.copperstate.com/shop/429/neoprene-washers >> >> Thanks, >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 >> >> On 1/28/2016 8:25 AM, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi Larry >> >> I wasn't planning on installing anything between al and al. Just between >> SS and al. So the module will still be bolted directly to the al rack >> material. I'm not too worried about the grounding, and certainly not >> worried enough to install lay in lugs with copper to each module. >> >> As lones pointed out, there are parts that would insulate the bolt. >> But as the owner hasn't requested that, not going to suggest it! >> >> I sure didn't plan on stirring the pot like this. >> Just really wanted some help on sourcing the washers >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> On Jan 28, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < >> larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: >> >> Hey Jay, >> >> I’m still trying to picture this and had a thought: If you isolate the >> module from the rack electrically with these washers, and both are >> grounded, and the two grounds are not at the same potential (different >> length ground runs), you may be creating a path for high voltage into the >> array in event of a near lightning strike. >> >> Also, if the washer is between the two metals, how will you isolate the >> bolt that puts them together from not touching the sides of the holes? >> Perhaps you need to look into non-conductive fasteners as well. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Jay wrote: >> >> Ok here is the long form. >> >> Customers system is in Mexico, Baja. So I'm not concerned about legal >> issues. >> It is a custom racking design to fit his house. >> Flat concrete roof,low tilt design with extra heavy duty engineering for >> hurricanes. Easy access for future MX of all fasteners >> Owner lives on his own island in the South Pacific. >> This is his 2nd ( more?) house. >> >> He wants this. I've told him all of what you all and have said including >> that there will need to be future mx to check bolt tightness. >> >> I am going to do it for him. >> Thanks for all the advice on where to get look for the parts he's looking >> for. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 3920 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 12:08:38 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:08:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: <56AAF61C.9030603@solarray.com> References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> <56AAC1DD.9010601@sindelarsolar.com> <56AAC93C.7030003@psln.com> <56AAF61C.9030603@solarray.com> Message-ID: I have always been dismayed with wooden battery boxes used in professionally installed power systems. It seems vey DIYer/HomePoweresque. Where else is wood used in electrical installations? I have on occasion built some BB plywood core boxes, sheetmetal outer skin/ FRP inner skin/ raw edges and corners banded with SS angle/ rubber gaskets with lots of latches. I build boxes that are made of either plastic or metal depending on the environment and usage they’ll see. Plastic, that is HDPE or acrylics, I order online cut to size, or from a glass shop. 1/4” thickness. Metal, heavy gauge sheetmetal, I have cut by fabricators, and then coated with non-corrosive/conductive coatings by a cabinet shop. Here are some general guidelines -With either material, I keep the panels sized small. Less than 2’ x 2’ is nice, both for shipping and handling. -Panels can be attached to each other using H and U channel, and angle stock (which also gives rigidity). Lids are usually sectional rather than a heavy single lid. Sometimes, on plastic lids I rout rabbets on the connecting seams so that the there is a half lap joint. -Plastic can be drilled and tapped. I generally avoid using adhesives because they are toxic as Hell and pieces want to slide out of alignment. -When batteries sit on metal racks, I enclose the racks with acrylic sheets using rare earth magnets. Magnets are attached to the acrylic with epoxy or the magnet will have a counter sunk hole and machine screws can be used. -I seldom build a box with a back wall. Instead, I apply a sheet of FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) to the wall that the box sits against, smooth side out. Side panels butt against, and are attached to the wall using U channel or angle stock. This accommodates a wall that may not be flat or a wall/floor intersection that isn’t square. Corners, That is sides to front pieces are made with angle stock. They knock apart by using wing nuts or magnets. That way the front of the box can be removed for placement/replacement. -I stopped using hinges for lids along time ago, when I started making lids that were sectional. Lately I run a length of U channel against the back wall, the length of the box. The width of the channel is wider than the thickness of the sheet, so that the sheet will slide in easily. The lid section is removed rather hinged up. You know the saying “Don’t let the lid hit you in the head!" -Over the years I have tried a lot of coatings in my metal boxes. All have held up well, but I have found that engine compartment type undercoatings to be my favorite. -If I have a say in the power room/shed design, I will specify a concrete slab with a shallow basin for the batteries to sit in. The basin has a floor drain and is epoxy coated. Otherwise I have a sheetmetal tray fabricated and have it coated. The tray is separate from the enclosure. -In very hard use applications I have the box made by a company that outfits utility and work trucks with beds and boxes. These are just large custom “truck boxes” -With smaller banks, I have successfully retrofitted both gang boxes and truck/utility boxes. The simplest setup being adding some cross members to a $300.00 gang box so that the batteries sat elevated within. That makes a very nice servicing height! Again interiors are coated. Growing up, I had a lot of exposure to both industrial off-grid power systems (mining, oil/gas, research, telecomm) and Maritime systems and thats where my sensibilities originated. Lately I have found myself the sole off-grid specialist in a fairly vast area, and so what Im doing mostly is replacing battery banks. Lots of battery banks, and lots of rotten, corroded, nasty toxic boxes! A few weeks ago my helper and I donned Tyvex suits, rubber gloves, goggles, and respirators to Demo a box that was in a dilapidated and soon to be be razed structure. The general contractor and client stood by laughing and commented that it looked like a scene from Breaking Bad! > On Jan 28, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Thanks for all the replies so far. I've tried foundation waterproofing membrane for a couple of years, but found it will deteriorate in high acid concentrations. IT gets all gooey and begins to dissolve. It had peel N stick adhesive, and seemed like a good idea, until later. (it was HDPE?) > I've seen construction 10 mil plastic sheeting hold a gal of acid for many months, so I know that at least works for acid. > > The pond liner looks good as well as Roy's wall plastic, but the 1/8" polypropylene would seem to be possibly more durable for about the same $$. Plastic welding looks relatively easy with a heat gun and special tip on a soldering iron, too. I'll report back on what we actually do. > > As always thanks for the input, and I welcome all further comments. I feel battery enclosures are a somewhat neglected part of off grid design. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 1/28/2016 7:06 PM, frenergy wrote: >> Add to the list...I've had good luck with Grace roofing underlayment: tough and to a degree, self-healing, sticks to itself (and anything it comes in contact with) very well making seams secure, easy to find at building supply store, sticks aggressively to battery box sides without mechanical fasteners, experience has shown it resists acid. As with other solutions, something to uniformly distribute the weight and irregular bottoms of batteries should be employed. >> >> Bill >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> On 1/28/2016 5:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>> Ray, >>> Just a couple of weeks ago we installed a 24V HUP set in an existing installation. We had an existing plywood battery box made of Baltic Birch (the 9-ply 12mm thick plywood typically used for cabinet drawer carcases) with a liner made of 40(?)-mil pond liner material. We removed the six cells from the steel case, set the case in place in the plywood box and lowered the cells into it. However, the box had a non-removable 5" wide strip across the top rear, and we needed to slide the entire 1100 pound case back about 8" in order to fit both steel cases. >>> >>> Before setting the steel case in the box I sprayed the floor of the pond liner with a layer of the new spray pulling lube from Klein Tools, then set the steel case in place and lowered the cells. Using a Porta-Power and some blocking, we slid the case into place with little effort. >>> >>> You might find that vinyl pond liner works well in a plywood box. We found it at a Home Depot. >>> Allan >>> >>> Allan Sindelar >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> >>> >>> On 1/28/2016 3:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>>> Hi All; >>>> >>>> We're looking to improve our battery box construction, and are considering using 1/8" think polypropylene sheeting. I've used small premade boxes before, but this will be for a HUP install, and we would want to build the box around the batteries after. Does anyone have experience/ comments on welding plastic? The alternative would be to just seal the seams with acid resistant caulking. (silicone, Geocell, ?) >>>> I've had good luck in the past just using 10 mil plastic sheeting stapled up on the inside of a plywood box, but we will be scooting 1000 lb batteries around on it, so I don't think the sheeting will hold up. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lena at nunatakenergy.com Fri Jan 29 12:11:29 2016 From: lena at nunatakenergy.com (Lena Wilensky) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:11:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Solar Edge Optimizer failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the input on SolarEdge. We finally sorted the issue out. Turns out somehow we got the wrong optimizers from our distributor - the details are a bit cloudy since it was over a year ago. But the short is we had optimizers with Amphenol connectors, and "Hosiden" brand MC4 connectors on the REC modules. Apparently (we were told by the distributor at the time of install) that Amphenol and MC4 mate just fine. And we got confirmation from Solar Edge that they usually do mate fine. But the Hosiden brand MC4 that comes on the REC modules are about 1/100" off from MC4 brand MC4's, and while they mate great with MC4 brand (this is all documented), they are a bit wide for Amphenol and will heat and stretch over time and eventually create a small short in the connector, effectively frying the optimizer. So even with manufacturer's and distributor's blessings we will only be using matching brands of connectors from now on! I have to say that our lower level tech support from SE was a bit lacking this time around, but once we got moved to the higher level team they were great. Took a bit of kicking and screaming (and 3 trips to swap out failed optimizers) to get there, though. Thankfully it seems like SE still has a good track record of reliability even in our neighborhood! Lena ----------------------- We?ve had a similar experience as Carl has on this. We have 929 kW of SE up and running (mix of commercial and residential, so roughly 2000 actual optimizers) with only a handful of DOA?s or infant mortalities (total of maybe 10-15 so far). Service is reimbursed just like you say (does not truly cover the cost, unless the job is next door). But it has not happened enough, or in any sort of pattern for us to have gotten riled up about it so far. Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 12:17 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge Optimizer failures Lena, We've been installing the Solar Edge product for a few years now and are experiencing good reliability. I think we have had 2 optimizers which were DOA from the factory. One was completely dead the other had a 25% reduced output. No problems with warranty replacements. With Regards Carl Adams, SunRock Solar On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Lena Wilensky wrote: We've had a strange set of recurring failures from one Solaredge install. It's a straightforward 5kw system with 20 x REC 255W modules and P300-5 SE optimizers. System was commissioned in 11/2014 and ran fine for about 6mo. At that time one optimizer failed - gave module short circuit voltage on the optimizer output when disconnected from the rest of the array. Nothing visibly wrong. Rest of the array worked fine. About 3mo later (this past august), 2 more optimizers failed. We gave Solaredge an earful, but they were only willing to send replacements for the 2 newly failed units and 2 spare optimizers for future failures. Same failure apparently with high output voltage from the optimizer when disconnected from the array. They said they had never heard of this happening multiple times and would do an optimizer autopsy. We just had another one fail 2 weeks ago. They apparently tested the 2 failed ones from august and found no water intrusion on the optimizer or connectors. This is all the testing they can do in the US for these potted units. They recently sent the failed units to Israel to test them, but don't expect results for at least 6mo or more. Solaredge claims they've never seen anything like this and so far they have refused to send replacements for the rest of the "good" optimizers in the array claiming that the optimizers may not be the issue. Really? Anyone heard of or seen any "batch" failures of these optimizers? Or have a good contact at Solaredge? I'm about ready to swap in an SMA inverter at this point, and stay away from module level anything from now on. We're going to have to triple our prices to pay for all this warranty work, as Solaredge only gives $25/optimizer and $100/incident to "help" with labor costs. Thanks for any insight.... Lena Wilensky (970)349-3432 www.nunatakenergy.com NABCEP Certified PV Installers: Cert.#031310-177, #R02907-17 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 12:26:55 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 07:26:55 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries, Was LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> References: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: Wrenches We were looking at these “Aquion batteries” but once we compared the power, voltage operating range and storage of the Unigy vs the Aquion we went with the Unigy brand the volt range worked normally no changes to the LBCO setings. I have Unigy applications going back close to 15 years with good results so far. If there are customers out there that want to use any new to the market product you may want to consider a disclaimer if there is a problem or the company goes away just so your not holding the bag. I have seen a few local contractors using the Aquion products but no results yet. Jerry On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 4:30 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > To All, > > Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for > anyone dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of > potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP > training session last spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t > impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”. > > > > Thanks, > > Christopher > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *don at energysolarnow.com > *Sent:* Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49 > *To:* Dan Fink > *Cc:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall > Batteries > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan. > > I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion > Hybrid Ion batteries. > > It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to > kick on each morning even in the summer. > > This is even worse in cold winter weather. > > Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with > NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. > > Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share? > > > > Thanks > > Don Barch > > Energy Solar > > don at energysolarnow.com > > > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 15:51:26 -0700 > From: Dan Fink > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall > Batteries > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello Mark; > My NiFes went in last March, I'm almost at a year living with them off the > grid. > To avoid writing a novel here I'll group my comments into Oddities, > Advantages and Disadvantages. > > Advantages: > ~ at least 25 year lifespan > ~ 10 year warranty > ~ Can add more parallel strings at any time/age, just drain and replace > electrolyte of old batteries > ~ 80% depth of discharge no problem, so can size smaller amp-hour capacity > > Oddities: > ~ alkaline electrolyte, neutralize spills and clean tops with white vinegar > ~ Specific gravity of electrolyte does not change with state of charge so a > hydrometer is useless > ~ Charge / discharge efficiency changes greatly with state of charge. > Sometimes my Magnum ME-BMK amp hour meter matches the Midnite Whizbang Jr > exactly, sometimes they are way off from each other. For ground truth, the > state of charge vs. voltage curve from the battery manufacturer seems right > on, not counting false readings when the batteries are not at rest for a > couple hours. > ~ Fooling PV MPPT charge controllers into dealing with NiFes involves > setting a very long and high Absorb voltage > ~ Charge efficiency is great up to 80% state of charge, but after that > drops way off. Above 80% SOC these batteries want to see 1.65v per cell to > really fill up. No problem for modern MPPT PV controllers, but- > ~ Some inverter / chargers (Magnum here) freak out and shut down at 1.6v > per cell, so the solution from the battery manufacturer is- > ~ Run fewer cells during times of year when charging is frequent from the > generator, put the extra cells back in the string during times of year when > the charging is mostly PV. Sitting uncharged does not damage these "extra" > cells. > ~ So I am running a 10.8v battery bank right now, will bring it back to 12v > this spring. No big deal, but does affect inverter surge capacity. Would > not be as much of a problem at 24v or 48v. > ~ > > Disadvantages: > ~ The high Absorb voltage to get that last 20% SOC efficiently bubbles > through a lot of distilled water. My schedule is 1-2 gallons every 40 days, > and the company sends a reminder email at that interval. > ~ The bubbling gets the tops dirty fast. A cleaning every 40 days is about > right. > ~ High cost > ~ Twiddling with string voltages semi-annually. This would not be an issue > if most charging is from PV. > > My thoughts: > My overall impression of being married to NiFes way off the grid has so far > been favorable.In a grid standby situation, I think string voltage > twiddling would be a non-issue, who cares about the last 20% of SOC charge > efficiency in that situation? Off the grid with daily cycling, generator > use, etc, I would not consider these to be batteries for off-grid > beginners. But anyone who has been off grid for a few years with lead acid > batteries will immediately appreciate the advantages and only occasionally > curse the quirks of Nife. > Plans here: Increase my PV by about 30%. Cheap and easy, no more taking > cells in and out of the string, and less winter generator run time. Get 'em > to 80% on genny during tough snowbound times and let PV do the rest. Figure > out some Arduino solution for monitoring when Peukert's exponent changes > depending on SOC. Complain to inverter/charger manufacturers to make them > work better with NiFe. > > Best regards; > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor? for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers? > 970.672.4342 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 29 13:04:44 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:04:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> <56AAC1DD.9010601@sindelarsolar.com> <56AAC93C.7030003@psln.com> <56AAF61C.9030603@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56ABA9BC.4050705@solarray.com> Hi Shasta; Sounds like you get the prize for battery box diligence. Lots of good=20 ideas there, although I've seen very bad things happen with steel bottom=20 trays for batteries. I've also seen spray on bed liner get peeled right off by acid, so I=20 would go with all plastic or concrete on any inside battery surfaces. =20 The stepped concrete with floor drain sounds really good too. This Pic is of a 10 year old coated steel battery pan. Tyvek suit time. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/29/2016 10:08 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: > I have always been dismayed with wooden battery boxes used in=20 > professionally installed power systems. It seems vey=20 > DIYer/HomePoweresque. Where else is wood used in electrical=20 > installations? I have on occasion built some BB plywood core boxes,=20 > sheetmetal outer skin/ FRP inner skin/ raw edges and corners banded=20 > with SS angle/ rubber gaskets with lots of latches. > > I build boxes that are made of either plastic or metal depending on=20 > the environment and usage they=E2=80=99ll see. Plastic, that is HDPE or=20 > acrylics, I order online cut to size, or from a glass shop. 1/4=E2=80=9D = > thickness. Metal, heavy gauge sheetmetal, I have cut by fabricators,=20 > and then coated with non-corrosive/conductive coatings by a cabinet shop. > > Here are some general guidelines > > -With either material, I keep the panels sized small. Less than 2=E2=80= =99 x=20 > 2=E2=80=99 is nice, both for shipping and handling. > > -Panels can be attached to each other using H and U channel, and angle=20 > stock (which also gives rigidity). Lids are usually sectional rather=20 > than a heavy > single lid. Sometimes, on plastic lids I rout rabbets on the=20 > connecting seams so that the there is a half lap joint. > > -Plastic can be drilled and tapped. I generally avoid using adhesives=20 > because they are toxic as Hell and pieces want to slide out of alignment. > > -When batteries sit on metal racks, I enclose the racks with acrylic=20 > sheets using rare earth magnets. Magnets are attached to the acrylic=20 > with epoxy or the > magnet will have a counter sunk hole and machine screws can be used. > > -I seldom build a box with a back wall. Instead, I apply a sheet of=20 > FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) to the wall that the box sits=20 > against, smooth side out. > Side panels butt against, and are attached to the wall using U=20 > channel or angle stock. This accommodates a wall that may not be flat=20 > or a > wall/floor intersection that isn=E2=80=99t square. Corners, That is side= s to=20 > front pieces are made with angle stock. They knock apart by using wing=20 > nuts or > magnets. That way the front of the box can be removed for=20 > placement/replacement. > > -I stopped using hinges for lids along time ago, when I started making=20 > lids that were sectional. Lately I run a length of U channel against=20 > the back wall, the > length of the box. The width of the channel is wider than the=20 > thickness of the sheet, so that the sheet will slide in easily. The=20 > lid section is removed rather > hinged up. You know the saying =E2=80=9CDon=E2=80=99t let the lid hit yo= u in the head!" > -Over the years I have tried a lot of coatings in my metal boxes. All=20 > have held up well, but I have found that engine compartment type=20 > undercoatings to be > my favorite. > > -If I have a say in the power room/shed design, I will specify a=20 > concrete slab with a shallow basin for the batteries to sit in. The=20 > basin has a floor drain and is epoxy coated. Otherwise I have a=20 > sheetmetal tray fabricated and have it coated. The tray is separate=20 > from the enclosure. > > > -In very hard use applications I have the box made by a company that=20 > outfits utility and work trucks with beds and boxes. These are just=20 > large custom > =E2=80=9Ctruck boxes=E2=80=9D > > -With smaller banks, I have successfully retrofitted both gang boxes=20 > and truck/utility boxes. The simplest setup being adding some cross=20 > members to a > $300.00 gang box so that the batteries sat elevated within. That=20 > makes a very nice servicing height! Again interiors are coated. > > Growing up, I had a lot of exposure to both industrial off-grid power=20 > systems (mining, oil/gas, research, telecomm) and Maritime systems and=20 > thats > where my sensibilities originated. Lately I have found myself the sole=20 > off-grid specialist in a fairly vast area, and so what Im doing mostly=20 > is replacing battery banks. Lots of battery banks, and lots of rotten,=20 > corroded, nasty toxic boxes! A few weeks ago my helper and I donned=20 > Tyvex suits, rubber gloves, > goggles, and respirators to Demo a box that was in a dilapidated and=20 > soon to be be razed structure. The general contractor and client stood=20 > by laughing and commented that it looked like a scene from Breaking Bad! > > >> On Jan 28, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Ray Walters > > wrote: >> >> Thanks for all the replies so far. I've tried foundation=20 >> waterproofing membrane for a couple of years, but found it will=20 >> deteriorate in high acid concentrations. IT gets all gooey and=20 >> begins to dissolve. It had peel N stick adhesive, and seemed like a=20 >> good idea, until later. (it was HDPE?) >> I've seen construction 10 mil plastic sheeting hold a gal of acid for=20 >> many months, so I know that at least works for acid. >> >> The pond liner looks good as well as Roy's wall plastic, but the 1/8"=20 >> polypropylene would seem to be possibly more durable for about the=20 >> same $$. Plastic welding looks relatively easy with a heat gun and=20 >> special tip on a soldering iron, too. I'll report back on what we=20 >> actually do. >> >> As always thanks for the input, and I welcome all further comments. =20 >> I feel battery enclosures are a somewhat neglected part of off grid=20 >> design. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 1/28/2016 7:06 PM, frenergy wrote: >>> Add to the list...I've had good luck with Grace roofing=20 >>> underlayment: tough and to a degree, self-healing, sticks to itself=20 >>> (and anything it comes in contact with) very well making seams=20 >>> secure, easy to find at building supply store, sticks aggressively=20 >>> to battery box sides without mechanical fasteners, experience has=20 >>> shown it resists acid. As with other solutions, something to=20 >>> uniformly distribute the weight and irregular bottoms of batteries=20 >>> should be employed. >>> >>> Bill >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> On 1/28/2016 5:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>> Ray, >>>> Just a couple of weeks ago we installed a 24V HUP set in an=20 >>>> existing installation. We had an existing plywood battery box made=20 >>>> of Baltic Birch (the 9-ply 12mm thick plywood typically used for=20 >>>> cabinet drawer carcases) with a liner made of 40(?)-mil pond liner=20 >>>> material. We removed the six cells from the steel case, set the=20 >>>> case in place in the plywood box and lowered the cells into it.=20 >>>> However, the box had a non-removable 5" wide strip across the top=20 >>>> rear, and we needed to slide the entire 1100 pound case back about=20 >>>> 8" in order to fit both steel cases. >>>> >>>> Before setting the steel case in the box I sprayed the floor of the=20 >>>> pond liner with a layer of the new spray pulling lube from Klein=20 >>>> Tools, then set the steel case in place and lowered the cells.=20 >>>> Using a Porta-Power and some blocking, we slid the case into place=20 >>>> with little effort. >>>> >>>> You might find that vinyl pond liner works well in a plywood box.=20 >>>> We found it at a Home Depot. >>>> Allan >>>> >>>> *Allan Sindelar* >>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>> Founder (Retired),Positive Energy, Inc. >>>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>>> >>>> ** >>>> On 1/28/2016 3:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>>>> Hi All; >>>>> >>>>> We're looking to improve our battery box construction, and are=20 >>>>> considering using 1/8" think polypropylene sheeting. I've used=20 >>>>> small premade boxes before, but this will be for a HUP install,=20 >>>>> and we would want to build the box around the batteries after. =20 >>>>> Does anyone have experience/ comments on welding plastic? The=20 >>>>> alternative would be to just seal the seams with acid resistant=20 >>>>> caulking. (silicone, Geocell, ?) >>>>> I've had good luck in the past just using 10 mil plastic sheeting=20 >>>>> stapled up on the inside of a plywood box, but we will be scooting=20 >>>>> 1000 lb batteries around on it, so I don't think the sheeting will=20 >>>>> hold up. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches= .org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.= org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bdeacffd.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 13:29:46 2016 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:29:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> <56AAC1DD.9010601@sindelarsolar.com> <56AAC93C.7030003@psln.com> <56AAF61C.9030603@solarray.com> Message-ID: <821AE97D-92EF-4690-AD74-6233F0B3185D@gmail.com> Hi Shasta, I have to second Ray and say that I'm impressed with the description of the battery boxes you've been making. I've always been dismayed by wooden battery boxes as well, but I have installed a lot of them, both because of the ease of getting materials and because they do seem to hold up fairly well over time. I'd like to make a move away from them though, and I'm intrigued by your take on construction. Are you using Stainless angle and u-channel for holding plastic panels together? How do you make the box rigid enough with only 1/4 thickness plastic sheets? I guess maybe the rigidity is coming from the angle and u-channels? What is the non-corrosive/conductive coating that you are using for metal pans (made of mild steel, I assume). Just curious. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installer™: Certification #031409-25 (Luke Christy) NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer (Luke Christy) Solar Gain Services, LLC Monte Vista, CO. SGSRenewables at Gmail.com On Jan 29, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: > I have always been dismayed with wooden battery boxes used in professionally installed power systems. It seems vey DIYer/HomePoweresque. Where else is wood used in electrical installations? I have on occasion built some BB plywood core boxes, sheetmetal outer skin/ FRP inner skin/ raw edges and corners banded with SS angle/ rubber gaskets with lots of latches. > > I build boxes that are made of either plastic or metal depending on the environment and usage they’ll see. Plastic, that is HDPE or acrylics, I order online cut to size, or from a glass shop. 1/4” thickness. Metal, heavy gauge sheetmetal, I have cut by fabricators, and then coated with non-corrosive/conductive coatings by a cabinet shop. > > Here are some general guidelines > > -With either material, I keep the panels sized small. Less than 2’ x 2’ is nice, both for shipping and handling. > > -Panels can be attached to each other using H and U channel, and angle stock (which also gives rigidity). Lids are usually sectional rather than a heavy > single lid. Sometimes, on plastic lids I rout rabbets on the connecting seams so that the there is a half lap joint. > > -Plastic can be drilled and tapped. I generally avoid using adhesives because they are toxic as Hell and pieces want to slide out of alignment. > > -When batteries sit on metal racks, I enclose the racks with acrylic sheets using rare earth magnets. Magnets are attached to the acrylic with epoxy or the > magnet will have a counter sunk hole and machine screws can be used. > > -I seldom build a box with a back wall. Instead, I apply a sheet of FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) to the wall that the box sits against, smooth side out. > Side panels butt against, and are attached to the wall using U channel or angle stock. This accommodates a wall that may not be flat or a > wall/floor intersection that isn’t square. Corners, That is sides to front pieces are made with angle stock. They knock apart by using wing nuts or > magnets. That way the front of the box can be removed for placement/replacement. > > -I stopped using hinges for lids along time ago, when I started making lids that were sectional. Lately I run a length of U channel against the back wall, the > length of the box. The width of the channel is wider than the thickness of the sheet, so that the sheet will slide in easily. The lid section is removed rather > hinged up. You know the saying “Don’t let the lid hit you in the head!" > > -Over the years I have tried a lot of coatings in my metal boxes. All have held up well, but I have found that engine compartment type undercoatings to be > my favorite. > > -If I have a say in the power room/shed design, I will specify a concrete slab with a shallow basin for the batteries to sit in. The basin has a floor drain and is epoxy coated. Otherwise I have a sheetmetal tray fabricated and have it coated. The tray is separate from the enclosure. > > > -In very hard use applications I have the box made by a company that outfits utility and work trucks with beds and boxes. These are just large custom > “truck boxes” > > -With smaller banks, I have successfully retrofitted both gang boxes and truck/utility boxes. The simplest setup being adding some cross members to a > $300.00 gang box so that the batteries sat elevated within. That makes a very nice servicing height! Again interiors are coated. > > Growing up, I had a lot of exposure to both industrial off-grid power systems (mining, oil/gas, research, telecomm) and Maritime systems and thats > where my sensibilities originated. Lately I have found myself the sole off-grid specialist in a fairly vast area, and so what Im doing mostly is replacing battery banks. Lots of battery banks, and lots of rotten, corroded, nasty toxic boxes! A few weeks ago my helper and I donned Tyvex suits, rubber gloves, > goggles, and respirators to Demo a box that was in a dilapidated and soon to be be razed structure. The general contractor and client stood by laughing and commented that it looked like a scene from Breaking Bad! > From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jan 29 12:53:56 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:53:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <03c901d15abe$08cdb4c0$1a691e40$@com> The set of curves below is a first generation for Aquion. Attached is a more current set FYI. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 7:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that conversation: Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD. And this: The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match the first chart I posted. On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: To All, Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”. Thanks, Christopher From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of don at energysolarnow.com Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49 To: Dan Fink Cc: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan. I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries. It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to kick on each morning even in the summer. This is even worse in cold winter weather. Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share? Thanks Don Barch Energy Solar don at energysolarnow.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 71704 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Aquion_Energy_S30-0080_Product_Specification_Sheet.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 366694 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 13:52:24 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:52:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and tripping LVD at only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with not being able to handle high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did some math on running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on Aquions, and it wasn't pretty, but I may not have done the math right. Very interested to hear personal experience on off-grid homes with these batteries. I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower, repeater tower etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high charging C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of -5C, 23 F. That's considered a "heat wave" during certain times of year in many areas, including here in sunny Colorado. In these applications the batteries are NOT in a heated room, instead an outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower. AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric installations, and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept at high SOC. And, cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of life. The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not adding up for me on these applications. My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP conference last year. Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar technologies appreciated here also. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some > concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that conversation: > > Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve > way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how > this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of > the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD. > > And this: > The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to > 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on > voltage sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery > can't be used. Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are > still not able to use the full capacity of the battery unless your load is > less than 800 Watts. > > I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the > capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use > it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the > spec sheet does not match the first chart I posted. > > > > > > > > On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > > To All, > Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for > anyone dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of > potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP > training session last spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t > impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”. > > Thanks, > Christopher > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of * > don at energysolarnow.com > *Sent:* Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49 > *To:* Dan Fink > *Cc:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall > Batteries > > Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan. > I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion > Hybrid Ion batteries. > It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to > kick on each morning even in the summer. > This is even worse in cold winter weather. > Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with > NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. > Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share? > > Thanks > Don Barch > Energy Solar > don at energysolarnow.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: egcjjhdh..png Type: image/png Size: 71704 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Fri Jan 29 14:02:29 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 13:02:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, I have had good success with flat rubber membrane roofing. I have not had good success with caulked seams, so i run a continuous peice and lap the corners. A stapler won't hold the laps so i will drive a wood screw into the box corner to hold it tight. It has never gotten gooey on me even with clients that think their batteries need to be full to the tippy top :-} Kris On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi All; > > We're looking to improve our battery box construction, and are considering > using 1/8" think polypropylene sheeting. I've used small premade boxes > before, but this will be for a HUP install, and we would want to build the > box around the batteries after. Does anyone have experience/ comments on > welding plastic? The alternative would be to just seal the seams with acid > resistant caulking. (silicone, Geocell, ?) > I've had good luck in the past just using 10 mil plastic sheeting stapled > up on the inside of a plywood box, but we will be scooting 1000 lb > batteries around on it, so I don't think the sheeting will hold up. > > Thanks, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jan 29 14:32:07 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:32:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: <03c901d15abe$08cdb4c0$1a691e40$@com> References: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> <03c901d15abe$08cdb4c0$1a691e40$@com> Message-ID: <6ED5064C-358D-4FDA-A9CA-6A80085D4918@starlightsolar.com> Thanks Dana. The new curves don’t look much better. Look at the space between the curves and realize that they are only 2A load difference. If we extrapolate to 17 amps the capacity will be greatly reduced. They need to show what the voltage sag is under full 680 Watt load. Has anyone actually installed Aquion batteries? Larry On Jan 29, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Dana wrote: The set of curves below is a first generation for Aquion. Attached is a more current set FYI. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2016-01-29 at 12.16.54 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 48010 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 29 14:37:46 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:37:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <56ABBF8A.1070609@solarray.com> That new chart is for a single block, but we would want the M100 or M110=20 which is 12 of those S30 blocks connected together (580 AH @ 20 hr=20 rate). I haven't tried them, but I penciled out the ROI and at 3000=20 cycles they stand up well against other lead acid batteries. 40 v is=20 low, but I believe most inverters can be set to LVD at 40. Magnum for instance can go as low as 36 v on a 48 v nom. setup. I agree with Dan that the minimum temp is a problem for many remote=20 applications. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/29/2016 11:52 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and=20 > tripping LVD at only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with=20 > not being able to handle high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did=20 > some math on running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on=20 > Aquions, and it wasn't pretty, but I may not have done the math right.=20 > Very interested to hear personal experience on off-grid homes with=20 > these batteries. > > I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower,=20 > repeater tower etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high=20 > charging C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of=20 > -5C, 23 F. That's considered a "heat wave" during certain times of=20 > year in many areas, including here in sunny Colorado. In these=20 > applications the batteries are NOT in a heated room, instead an=20 > outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower. > > AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric=20 > installations, and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept=20 > at high SOC. And, cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of=20 > life. The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not adding up for=20 > me on these applications. > > My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP=20 > conference last year. > > Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar=20 > technologies appreciated here also. > > Best regards; > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor=E2=84=A2 for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers=E2=84=A2 > 970.672.4342 > > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems=20 > > wrote: > > I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some > concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that > conversation: > > Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge > curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I > can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications > without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about > 40% could be used before LVD. > > And this: > The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates > from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 > volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the > capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback > can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the > full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. > > I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me > like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid > environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? > BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match > the first chart I posted. > > > > > > > > On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer > > wrote: > > To All, > Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone > dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I=E2=80=99ve got a couple of > potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a > NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I > wasn=E2=80=99t impressed. Perhaps it=E2=80=99s time to start a new th= read, =E2=80=9CAquion > batteries=E2=80=9D. > Thanks, > Christopher > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *don at energysolarnow.com > *Sent:* Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49 > *To:* Dan Fink > *Cc:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of > Powerwall Batteries > Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan. > I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the > Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries. > It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the > genny to kick on each morning even in the summer. > This is even worse in cold winter weather. > Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC > with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. > Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share? > Thanks > Don Barch > Energy Solar > don at energysolarnow.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 71704 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 29 14:45:08 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:45:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <014301d15acd$9074e330$b15ea990$@sbcglobal.net> Dan, I concur with your basic assessment. After listening to an Aquion presentation, and reviewing the operating curves, this battery has a very narrow application. Most off-grid houses these days have significant surge loads. That is why we spend so much time and effort making sure our inverter is properly rated for the worst-case surges. Most batteries are relied upon, not just for energy storage, which Aquion appears to deliver, but we also must have significant surge power. Aquion essentially has no surge capability. If you have an application where a non-surge inverter will work, then you might have an Aquion application. Otherwise, stay away from Aquion until they develop a concept that allows surges. Think of the Aquion battery like a fuel cell. Fuel cells are notoriously poor at surges. Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 10:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and tripping LVD at only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with not being able to handle high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did some math on running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on Aquions, and it wasn't pretty, but I may not have done the math right. Very interested to hear personal experience on off-grid homes with these batteries. I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower, repeater tower etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high charging C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of -5C, 23 F. That's considered a "heat wave" during certain times of year in many areas, including here in sunny Colorado. In these applications the batteries are NOT in a heated room, instead an outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower. AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric installations, and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept at high SOC. And, cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of life. The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not adding up for me on these applications. My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP conference last year. Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar technologies appreciated here also. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that conversation: Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD. And this: The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match the first chart I posted. On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: To All, Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”. Thanks, Christopher From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of don at energysolarnow.com Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49 To: Dan Fink Cc: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan. I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries. It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to kick on each morning even in the summer. This is even worse in cold winter weather. Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share? Thanks Don Barch Energy Solar don at energysolarnow.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 71704 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 14:38:50 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:38:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's In-Reply-To: <20160128215238.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.0dffc57c5c.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20160128215238.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.0dffc57c5c.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <6F99CBED-D185-462C-A558-12D13BE6CFBF@gmail.com> Hi Dan Can you provide any documentation on this? Thanks Jay Peltz power. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 28, 2016, at 8:52 PM, wrote: > > While Brian T. is correct that fusing is not required for string-to-string overcurrent protection with two strings into two channels, there is another reason to require fusing. > Transformerless inverters like Fronius Primo have no transformer to provide AC-DC isolation, so a ground fault can allow excessive AC current from AC neutral to enter the DC side and fry inverter components. Transformerless inverters need fuses on both DC positive and DC negative legs to protect the inverter in case of ground fault. > This is why both DC+ and DC- are switched and PV wire is required for DC connections-- to protect the inverters, not just the PV modules. > This is also why SMA, for example, no longer has any fuses in their disconnect switches but requires a separate fused DC combiner box with fuses for both positive and negative circuits. > I have had inverter damage with another inverter brand that only had fuses for the DC+. They now provide fuses on both legs. > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 17:31:22 -0800 > From: Brian Teitelbaum > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a > Inverter with 2 MPPT's > Message-ID: <7b344022a97655195ced29e564a31c54 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Al, > > > > As long as you only have a max of two strings going into each of the > separate MPPT channels, no string fusing is needed. So with four strings, > two on each MPPT input channel in the inverter, no string fusing is needed. > This is one of the big advantages to having multiple MPPT channels in GT > inverters. > > > > No need to run separate conduits either. All four PV string circuits can be > run in a single conduit, as long as the conduit is properly sized for wire > fill, of course. > > > > > > Brian Teitelbaum > > AEE Solar > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Frishman > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2016 6:12 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter > with 2 MPPT's > > > > Wrenchers, > > What is the requirement for fusing 2 strings per MPPT? Specifically for > an inverter like the Fronius Primo that has no integrated fuses. If you > run 2 strings to each MPPT do you need to fuse each string? In this case > there is a total of 4 strings which would need to be fused if using a > single mppt. > > > > If the home runs are run in separate conduits from the array to limit the > strings in the conduit to 2 per you still have all 4 strings together in > the inverter. > > > > All thoughts and feedback are appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markb at cobaltpower.com Fri Jan 29 15:36:03 2016 From: markb at cobaltpower.com (Mark Byington) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:36:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Fuses on TL Inverters Message-ID: <01c001d15ad4$ac6aebf0$0540c3d0$@com> "Transformerless inverters need fuses on both DC positive and DC negative legs to protect the inverter in case of ground fault." I could be wrong, but my understanding is that TL inverters are no different than transformer type inverters in terms of DC fusing requirements - no fuse required for one or two strings in parallel; fuses required on + and - leads for 3 or more strings in parallel. Mark Byington Cobalt Power Systems, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 29 16:27:21 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:27:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: <014301d15acd$9074e330$b15ea990$@sbcglobal.net> References: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> <014301d15acd$9074e330$b15ea990$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56ABD939.1080601@solarray.com> Again I haven't tried the Aquion, but when you look at a typical setup=20 with two M110 banks for 1160 AH, that has a peak power of 19.2 kW. This=20 would be 24 of the S30 blocks. That seems like usable surge to me, but=20 maybe I'm missing something? I attached the M110 spec sheet. It seems that just like with lead acid batteries, you need to keep your=20 normal discharge at a C20 or less. Aou can't operate at low temps, and=20 the inverter needs to be able to handle lower than normal voltages. We really need some users of the Aquion to comment, as we all know,=20 actual experience on this list trumps the collective speculation. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/29/2016 12:45 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > Dan, > > I concur with your basic assessment. After listening to an Aquion=20 > presentation, and reviewing the operating curves, this battery has a=20 > very narrow application. > > Most off-grid houses these days have significant surge loads. That is=20 > why we spend so much time and effort making sure our inverter is=20 > properly rated for the worst-case surges. Most batteries are relied=20 > upon, not just for energy storage, which Aquion appears to deliver,=20 > but we also must have significant surge power. Aquion essentially has=20 > no surge capability. > > If you have an application where a non-surge inverter will work, then=20 > you might have an Aquion application. Otherwise, stay away from Aquion=20 > until they develop a concept that allows surges. > > Think of the Aquion battery like a fuel cell. Fuel cells are=20 > notoriously poor at surges. > > Bill. > > Bill Brooks, PE > > Principal > > Brooks Engineering > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 10:52 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries > > I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and=20 > tripping LVD at only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with=20 > not being able to handle high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did=20 > some math on running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on=20 > Aquions, and it wasn't pretty, but I may not have done the math right.=20 > Very interested to hear personal experience on off-grid homes with=20 > these batteries. > > I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower,=20 > repeater tower etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high=20 > charging C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of=20 > -5C, 23 F. That's considered a "heat wave" during certain times of=20 > year in many areas, including here in sunny Colorado. In these=20 > applications the batteries are NOT in a heated room, instead an=20 > outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower. > > AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric=20 > installations, and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept=20 > at high SOC. And, cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of=20 > life. The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not adding up for=20 > me on these applications. > > My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP=20 > conference last year. > > Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar=20 > technologies appreciated here also. > > Best regards; > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor=E2=84=A2 for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers=E2=84=A2 > 970.672.4342 > > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems=20 > wrote: > > I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some > concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that > conversation: > > Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge > curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I > can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications > without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about > 40% could be used before LVD. > > And this: > > The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates > from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 > volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the > capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback > can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the > full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. > > I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me > like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid > environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? > BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match > the first chart I posted. > > On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer > > wrote: > > To All, > > Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone > dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I=E2=80=99ve got a couple of > potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a > NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I > wasn=E2=80=99t impressed. Perhaps it=E2=80=99s time to start a new th= read, =E2=80=9CAquion > batteries=E2=80=9D. > > Thanks, > > Christopher > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *don at energysolarnow.com > *Sent:* Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49 > *To:* Dan Fink > *Cc:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of > Powerwall Batteries > > Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan. > > I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the > Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries. > > It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the > genny to kick on each morning even in the summer. > > This is even worse in cold winter weather. > > Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC > with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. > > Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share? > > Thanks > > Don Barch > > Energy Solar > > don at energysolarnow.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or= g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 71704 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Aquion_Energy_M110-LS83_M110-L083_Prelim_Tech_Info_Sheet.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 203291 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 18:06:35 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 13:06:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Fuses on TL Inverters In-Reply-To: <01c001d15ad4$ac6aebf0$0540c3d0$@com> References: <01c001d15ad4$ac6aebf0$0540c3d0$@com> Message-ID: Wrenches We have been installing combiners with anything more then 1 string on the TL inverters. Troubleshooting is better with a remote combiner, its seems a waist but all our inspectors to like to see it also. On Jan 29, 2016 10:36 AM, "Mark Byington" wrote: > > > "Transformerless inverters need fuses on both DC positive and DC negative > legs to protect the inverter in case of ground fault." > > > > I could be wrong, but my understanding is that TL inverters are no > different than transformer type inverters in terms of DC fusing > requirements - no fuse required for one or two strings in parallel; fuses > required on + and - leads for 3 or more strings in parallel. > > > > Mark Byington > > Cobalt Power Systems, Inc. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jan 29 18:05:52 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:05:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Failure Due to Generator Backfeed (?) Message-ID: I'm looking at two Eaton PV250 inverters that failed simultaneously as far as we know (not my install). Everything checked out normal, but no display and no power output. I suspect both boards are bad. Upon digging into the scenario I discovered that the owner had a whole-house generator transfer switch installed a while back, after the PV was installed. The PV is a load side interconnection, so calamity should have been expected. What are the odds that the generator caused the inverter boards to fail? I was always under the impression that it was more likely for a generator component to be damaged than an inverter component in this scenario. It could be coincidence and the inverters may have just failed around the same. Note: ~10kW PV, 25kW Generator Side note: The PV was interconnected at a 50A breaker on a 200A bus bar in the main distribution panel and somehow passed inspection by an AHJ that shall not be named... Over 120%, and also not the correct OCPD rating anyway for these two inverters. Passed plan review and inspection... Contractor out of business... surprise! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 18:18:24 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 13:18:24 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Failure Due to Generator Backfeed (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have seen something very close, it appears that the gwnny will always win this war. Jerry On Jan 29, 2016 1:14 PM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm looking at two Eaton PV250 inverters that failed simultaneously as far > as we know (not my install). Everything checked out normal, but no display > and no power output. I suspect both boards are bad. Upon digging into the > scenario I discovered that the owner had a whole-house generator transfer > switch installed a while back, after the PV was installed. The PV is a load > side interconnection, so calamity should have been expected. > > What are the odds that the generator caused the inverter boards to fail? I > was always under the impression that it was more likely for a generator > component to be damaged than an inverter component in this scenario. It > could be coincidence and the inverters may have just failed around the same. > > Note: ~10kW PV, 25kW Generator > > Side note: The PV was interconnected at a 50A breaker on a 200A bus bar in > the main distribution panel and somehow passed inspection by an AHJ that > shall not be named... Over 120%, and also not the correct OCPD rating > anyway for these two inverters. Passed plan review and inspection... > Contractor out of business... surprise! > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 18:20:42 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 15:20:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Box Construction In-Reply-To: References: <56AA9568.2040506@solarray.com> <56AAC1DD.9010601@sindelarsolar.com> <56AAC93C.7030003@psln.com> <56AAF61C.9030603@solarray.com> Message-ID: Luke, I have used a number of coatings over the years. My go to coating is made by 3M, I believe its called Heavy Duty Performance coating. 3M rates it resistant to Sulphuric acid at something like a 15% solution, but I have seen some boxes I made in the early 90s that were pig-sties and the coating looked good. The best most durable coatings I’ve used are Marine bilge and engine paints that are epoxy based. In the jargon of today, bomber. Around $250.00 a gallon. I have a cabinet shop apply the stuff since they have the ventilation set up for dealing with the fumes, and drying racks. I’ve used two “bedliner products” One deteriorated after a few years from normal gassing” The other seams to be fine. Pans are thin gauge stainless. Rigidity for the plastic boxes is achieved with angle stock. Angle, and channel are stainless, but I have used aluminum both plain and anodized, and etched and painted and saw a plain one that’s fifteen years old and the aluminum looks ok. The plastic boxes are light duty in that you wouldn’t set a heavy tool box on top or certainly sit on it. They aren’t flimsy like the commercially made HDPE boxes, which I actually like, and use a lot. I’m sure to let my clients know this, and they are all told that if my electrical room or shed becomes a storage room/shed, they are fired! The price range for a box that would hold (16) L-16s or that equivalent volume is 1,000-2,500. I have found that a decent basic plywood box that is coated inside and has a tray pushes the bottom end of that scale. I’m a serious woodworker and have a commercial shop and still can’t blow one out for much less. I think my boxes hold up well because I make sure that if passive ventilation is used, that it actually is working. I have had to alter intake and exhaust ports, both location and volumes to get air to move. The physics are beyond me. My preference is dual power vents, one being a back up. I like to install indicator lights so that my clients have a heads up if one goes out. Some die prematurely and some live long healthy lives. On a final note. I DO have a lot of systems out there with plywood boxes. Sometimes the clients insist, and I tell them to make one. I also do a lot of pro bono work for the elderly, vets, and backwoods folks who have fallen in hard times, and there funds are scant. Michael Morningstar > On Jan 29, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: > > I have always been dismayed with wooden battery boxes used in professionally installed power systems. It seems vey DIYer/HomePoweresque. Where else is wood used in electrical installations? I have on occasion built some BB plywood core boxes, sheetmetal outer skin/ FRP inner skin/ raw edges and corners banded with SS angle/ rubber gaskets with lots of latches. > > I build boxes that are made of either plastic or metal depending on the environment and usage they’ll see. Plastic, that is HDPE or acrylics, I order online cut to size, or from a glass shop. 1/4” thickness. Metal, heavy gauge sheetmetal, I have cut by fabricators, and then coated with non-corrosive/conductive coatings by a cabinet shop. > > Here are some general guidelines > > -With either material, I keep the panels sized small. Less than 2’ x 2’ is nice, both for shipping and handling. > > -Panels can be attached to each other using H and U channel, and angle stock (which also gives rigidity). Lids are usually sectional rather than a heavy > single lid. Sometimes, on plastic lids I rout rabbets on the connecting seams so that the there is a half lap joint. > > -Plastic can be drilled and tapped. I generally avoid using adhesives because they are toxic as Hell and pieces want to slide out of alignment. > > -When batteries sit on metal racks, I enclose the racks with acrylic sheets using rare earth magnets. Magnets are attached to the acrylic with epoxy or the > magnet will have a counter sunk hole and machine screws can be used. > > -I seldom build a box with a back wall. Instead, I apply a sheet of FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) to the wall that the box sits against, smooth side out. > Side panels butt against, and are attached to the wall using U channel or angle stock. This accommodates a wall that may not be flat or a > wall/floor intersection that isn’t square. Corners, That is sides to front pieces are made with angle stock. They knock apart by using wing nuts or > magnets. That way the front of the box can be removed for placement/replacement. > > -I stopped using hinges for lids along time ago, when I started making lids that were sectional. Lately I run a length of U channel against the back wall, the > length of the box. The width of the channel is wider than the thickness of the sheet, so that the sheet will slide in easily. The lid section is removed rather > hinged up. You know the saying “Don’t let the lid hit you in the head!" > > -Over the years I have tried a lot of coatings in my metal boxes. All have held up well, but I have found that engine compartment type undercoatings to be > my favorite. > > -If I have a say in the power room/shed design, I will specify a concrete slab with a shallow basin for the batteries to sit in. The basin has a floor drain and is epoxy coated. Otherwise I have a sheetmetal tray fabricated and have it coated. The tray is separate from the enclosure. > > > -In very hard use applications I have the box made by a company that outfits utility and work trucks with beds and boxes. These are just large custom > “truck boxes” > > -With smaller banks, I have successfully retrofitted both gang boxes and truck/utility boxes. The simplest setup being adding some cross members to a > $300.00 gang box so that the batteries sat elevated within. That makes a very nice servicing height! Again interiors are coated. > > Growing up, I had a lot of exposure to both industrial off-grid power systems (mining, oil/gas, research, telecomm) and Maritime systems and thats > where my sensibilities originated. Lately I have found myself the sole off-grid specialist in a fairly vast area, and so what Im doing mostly is replacing battery banks. Lots of battery banks, and lots of rotten, corroded, nasty toxic boxes! A few weeks ago my helper and I donned Tyvex suits, rubber gloves, > goggles, and respirators to Demo a box that was in a dilapidated and soon to be be razed structure. The general contractor and client stood by laughing and commented that it looked like a scene from Breaking Bad! > > >> On Jan 28, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: >> >> Thanks for all the replies so far. I've tried foundation waterproofing membrane for a couple of years, but found it will deteriorate in high acid concentrations. IT gets all gooey and begins to dissolve. It had peel N stick adhesive, and seemed like a good idea, until later. (it was HDPE?) >> I've seen construction 10 mil plastic sheeting hold a gal of acid for many months, so I know that at least works for acid. >> >> The pond liner looks good as well as Roy's wall plastic, but the 1/8" polypropylene would seem to be possibly more durable for about the same $$. Plastic welding looks relatively easy with a heat gun and special tip on a soldering iron, too. I'll report back on what we actually do. >> >> As always thanks for the input, and I welcome all further comments. I feel battery enclosures are a somewhat neglected part of off grid design. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 1/28/2016 7:06 PM, frenergy wrote: >>> Add to the list...I've had good luck with Grace roofing underlayment: tough and to a degree, self-healing, sticks to itself (and anything it comes in contact with) very well making seams secure, easy to find at building supply store, sticks aggressively to battery box sides without mechanical fasteners, experience has shown it resists acid. As with other solutions, something to uniformly distribute the weight and irregular bottoms of batteries should be employed. >>> >>> Bill >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> On 1/28/2016 5:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>> Ray, >>>> Just a couple of weeks ago we installed a 24V HUP set in an existing installation. We had an existing plywood battery box made of Baltic Birch (the 9-ply 12mm thick plywood typically used for cabinet drawer carcases) with a liner made of 40(?)-mil pond liner material. We removed the six cells from the steel case, set the case in place in the plywood box and lowered the cells into it. However, the box had a non-removable 5" wide strip across the top rear, and we needed to slide the entire 1100 pound case back about 8" in order to fit both steel cases. >>>> >>>> Before setting the steel case in the box I sprayed the floor of the pond liner with a layer of the new spray pulling lube from Klein Tools, then set the steel case in place and lowered the cells. Using a Porta-Power and some blocking, we slid the case into place with little effort. >>>> >>>> You might find that vinyl pond liner works well in a plywood box. We found it at a Home Depot. >>>> Allan >>>> >>>> Allan Sindelar >>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>> 505 780-2738 cell >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/28/2016 3:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>>>> Hi All; >>>>> >>>>> We're looking to improve our battery box construction, and are considering using 1/8" think polypropylene sheeting. I've used small premade boxes before, but this will be for a HUP install, and we would want to build the box around the batteries after. Does anyone have experience/ comments on welding plastic? The alternative would be to just seal the seams with acid resistant caulking. (silicone, Geocell, ?) >>>>> I've had good luck in the past just using 10 mil plastic sheeting stapled up on the inside of a plywood box, but we will be scooting 1000 lb batteries around on it, so I don't think the sheeting will hold up. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 19:47:44 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:47:44 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modules Message-ID: I have some sunpower modules available from a deal i had that deid on the vine contact me off list if interested, as i recall there are over 132 modules new in the box Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Sat Jan 30 02:34:38 2016 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 00:34:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's Message-ID: <20160130003438.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.cac6a6d1f9.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Grounded-vs-Ungrounded copy.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 243149 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 23:37:27 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 20:37:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Failure Due to Generator Backfeed (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1102D13E-2D6C-4D8D-9B41-9762C061EE10@gmail.com> Hi jerry Can you give any insight as to the failure mechanism? I guess I don't understand why bad AC would damage the inverter, I mean besides the obvious bad equipment design. Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 29, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > We have seen something very close, it appears that the gwnny will always win this war. > Jerry > >> On Jan 29, 2016 1:14 PM, "Jason Szumlanski" wrote: >> I'm looking at two Eaton PV250 inverters that failed simultaneously as far as we know (not my install). Everything checked out normal, but no display and no power output. I suspect both boards are bad. Upon digging into the scenario I discovered that the owner had a whole-house generator transfer switch installed a while back, after the PV was installed. The PV is a load side interconnection, so calamity should have been expected. >> >> What are the odds that the generator caused the inverter boards to fail? I was always under the impression that it was more likely for a generator component to be damaged than an inverter component in this scenario. It could be coincidence and the inverters may have just failed around the same. >> >> Note: ~10kW PV, 25kW Generator >> >> Side note: The PV was interconnected at a 50A breaker on a 200A bus bar in the main distribution panel and somehow passed inspection by an AHJ that shall not be named... Over 120%, and also not the correct OCPD rating anyway for these two inverters. Passed plan review and inspection... Contractor out of business... surprise! >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Sat Jan 30 06:08:45 2016 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 06:08:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Fuses on TL Inverters In-Reply-To: References: <01c001d15ad4$ac6aebf0$0540c3d0$@com> Message-ID: <00f901d15b4e$96c8e520$c45aaf60$@net> I believe that when you have a TL inverter that has two channels you may have up to two strings, unfused, going into each channel. Thus leaving you with four strings of modules with no fusing. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Phone: 413 883-3144 Spirit Solar www.SpiritSolar.net From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 6:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fuses on TL Inverters Wrenches We have been installing combiners with anything more then 1 string on the TL inverters. Troubleshooting is better with a remote combiner, its seems a waist but all our inspectors to like to see it also. On Jan 29, 2016 10:36 AM, "Mark Byington" wrote: "Transformerless inverters need fuses on both DC positive and DC negative legs to protect the inverter in case of ground fault." I could be wrong, but my understanding is that TL inverters are no different than transformer type inverters in terms of DC fusing requirements - no fuse required for one or two strings in parallel; fuses required on + and - leads for 3 or more strings in parallel. Mark Byington Cobalt Power Systems, Inc. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 08:35:27 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 06:35:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Failure Due to Generator Backfeed (?) In-Reply-To: <1102D13E-2D6C-4D8D-9B41-9762C061EE10@gmail.com> References: <1102D13E-2D6C-4D8D-9B41-9762C061EE10@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, I really don't think the generator is at fault. I think of these grid tied inverters as current sources, not voltage sources. If they don't "like" the voltage at their AC input terminals, its their job to disconnect from that voltage source and reconnect when the voltage is within their specs. It's certainly not impossible and I would recommend having a contactor remove the PV input when the transfer switch is in generator mode. I'm sure if you tell Eaton that there was a generator connection, they would be much less inclined to honor any warranty that there may be. One caveat to this is if there are lots of non-linear loads and the generator wasn't sized to account for this you might see voltage distortion that may cause problems. I'm not sure how an inverter decides if a voltage source is worthy of connecting to or not, so wave-form distortion may not be picked up, and I'm not sure if there is any input filtering. Here is a very good and succinct article on the effect of non-linear loads on generators: https://www.idc-online.com/technical_references/pdfs/electrical_engineering/Generators_and_nonlinear_loads.pdf On another note, if there are a lot of inductive loads, activation of a transfer switch could cause a voltage spike in the system. Good Luck On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi jerry > > Can you give any insight as to the failure mechanism? > > I guess I don't understand why bad AC would damage the inverter, I mean > besides the obvious bad equipment design. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Jan 29, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > We have seen something very close, it appears that the gwnny will always > win this war. > Jerry > On Jan 29, 2016 1:14 PM, "Jason Szumlanski" < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I'm looking at two Eaton PV250 inverters that failed simultaneously as >> far as we know (not my install). Everything checked out normal, but no >> display and no power output. I suspect both boards are bad. Upon digging >> into the scenario I discovered that the owner had a whole-house generator >> transfer switch installed a while back, after the PV was installed. The PV >> is a load side interconnection, so calamity should have been expected. >> >> What are the odds that the generator caused the inverter boards to fail? >> I was always under the impression that it was more likely for a generator >> component to be damaged than an inverter component in this scenario. It >> could be coincidence and the inverters may have just failed around the same. >> >> Note: ~10kW PV, 25kW Generator >> >> Side note: The PV was interconnected at a 50A breaker on a 200A bus bar >> in the main distribution panel and somehow passed inspection by an AHJ that >> shall not be named... Over 120%, and also not the correct OCPD rating >> anyway for these two inverters. Passed plan review and inspection... >> Contractor out of business... surprise! >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jan 30 17:12:45 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:12:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Failure Due to Generator Backfeed (?) In-Reply-To: References: <1102D13E-2D6C-4D8D-9B41-9762C061EE10@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mac, That's what I was thinking, too. The inverters should be resilient to AC input variations. I learned something else... the inverters had lightning arrestors installed and connected to DC inputs that still had dummy fuses in them. Later when they were discovered by someone else totally fried (the dummy fuses), they were swapped for proper fuses and then the inverters worked for another year. I suspect that ALL of the DC and AC dummy fuses were probably left in by the original installer, then swapped out when the lightning arrestor damage was discovered. The plot thickens. To simplify I said Eaton, but it is actually an Eaton that was privately labeled as an ASP (now defunct). I tried to get help from Eaton in this scenario before and was unsuccessful. They didn't have parts or spares, and didn't seem inclined to honor the warranty for the ASP branded product. ​It's a long story - part of the fraudulently UL labeled module fiasco from a couple of years ago... Anyway, the customer agreed to buy some SMA TL inverters to put the saga behind him. Good move... Jason​ On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I really don't think the generator is at fault. I think of these grid > tied inverters as current sources, not voltage sources. If they don't > "like" the voltage at their AC input terminals, its their job to disconnect > from that voltage source and reconnect when the voltage is within their > specs. It's certainly not impossible and I would recommend having a > contactor remove the PV input when the transfer switch is in generator > mode. I'm sure if you tell Eaton that there was a generator connection, > they would be much less inclined to honor any warranty that there may be. > > One caveat to this is if there are lots of non-linear loads and the > generator wasn't sized to account for this you might see voltage distortion > that may cause problems. I'm not sure how an inverter decides if a voltage > source is worthy of connecting to or not, so wave-form distortion may not > be picked up, and I'm not sure if there is any input filtering. Here is a > very good and succinct article on the effect of non-linear loads on > generators: > https://www.idc-online.com/technical_references/pdfs/electrical_engineering/Generators_and_nonlinear_loads.pdf > > On another note, if there are a lot of inductive loads, activation of a > transfer switch could cause a voltage spike in the system. > > Good Luck > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Jay wrote: > >> Hi jerry >> >> Can you give any insight as to the failure mechanism? >> >> I guess I don't understand why bad AC would damage the inverter, I mean >> besides the obvious bad equipment design. >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> On Jan 29, 2016, at 3:18 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> We have seen something very close, it appears that the gwnny will always >> win this war. >> Jerry >> On Jan 29, 2016 1:14 PM, "Jason Szumlanski" < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I'm looking at two Eaton PV250 inverters that failed simultaneously as >>> far as we know (not my install). Everything checked out normal, but no >>> display and no power output. I suspect both boards are bad. Upon digging >>> into the scenario I discovered that the owner had a whole-house generator >>> transfer switch installed a while back, after the PV was installed. The PV >>> is a load side interconnection, so calamity should have been expected. >>> >>> What are the odds that the generator caused the inverter boards to fail? >>> I was always under the impression that it was more likely for a generator >>> component to be damaged than an inverter component in this scenario. It >>> could be coincidence and the inverters may have just failed around the same. >>> >>> Note: ~10kW PV, 25kW Generator >>> >>> Side note: The PV was interconnected at a 50A breaker on a 200A bus bar >>> in the main distribution panel and somehow passed inspection by an AHJ that >>> shall not be named... Over 120%, and also not the correct OCPD rating >>> anyway for these two inverters. Passed plan review and inspection... >>> Contractor out of business... surprise! >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Jan 30 17:21:14 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 15:21:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V charge controller questions Message-ID: <56AD375A.4030605@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 17:39:07 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 14:39:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V charge controller questions In-Reply-To: <56AD375A.4030605@sindelarsolar.com> References: <56AD375A.4030605@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <99AC28E1-08D6-4704-BB48-940E2DAC5E7E@gmail.com> HI Allan, I’ll let you do the AC or DC couple choice. However my suggestion if you do DC couple is to go Schneider for all. Then you will have an integrated DC couple package. Metering and control, they have new battery meter and full online capability. And one of the things I don’t like about the moringstar is that manual relay. You should be able to configure a relay to turn off the GT inverter and turn on the 600v CC automatically in the event of a power failure. Not that I’ve looked for a 80 amp 600vdc one. jay peltz power > On Jan 30, 2016, at 2:21 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > I am serving as a consultant for a homeowner with an array of solar equipment that doesn't do what he wants, a common story. He wants independence in the event of an extended utility outage. To cut to the chase: > > He has one array of 3,100 watts feeding through a controller into a 48V battery bank. No issues with this. > A second array of 4,230 rated watts (2 9-module strings of 235W Sharp modules) currently feeds a Fronius IG-4000 inverter and the grid. In the event of an outage this system shuts down, of course. He is looking at replacing his existing pair of old SW5548s with a single Schneider XW system, or possibly a Radian. > I would like to give him the ability to switch from the Fronius inverter to a 600V charge controller if either a) the grid went down or b) the Fronius failed. > > I looked at Morningstar's TS-MPPT-600 controller with the DC transfer switch, but its DC output is rated as limited to 60A, less than the 4.2kW output of the array. The spec sheet gives a nominal maximum wattage of 3,200W, although a note adds that "input power can exceed Nominal Maximum Operating Power, but controller will limit and provide its rated continuous maximum output current into batteries. This will not harm the controller." > > I looked at Schneider's XW MPPT80 controller, which has the necessary higher capacity. But beside lacking any built-in or optional input metering, it lacks the transfer switch available with the Morningstar. > > So questions: > - Is there a good transfer switch to use with the Schneider unit, to allow manual switching of the PV input between the Fronius (when the grid is up) and the controller and batteries (when the grid is down)? > - Should I use the Morningstar unit, recommending that the periodic flatlining due to the excess wattage be simply accepted as a small concession to being able to use the array during an extended outage? > - Is AC coupling simply a better approach? > - Any other solutions? > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 22:14:09 2016 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:14:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's In-Reply-To: <20160130003438.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.cac6a6d1f9.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20160130003438.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.cac6a6d1f9.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: That document refers to 2008 NEC 690.9 code which has the exemption that is used for grounded inverters. Section 690.35 for ungrounded systems just refers back to 690.9 for over-current protection. So I do not see any indication that two strings on an ungrounded inverter could not have the same exemption applied to it, which I think is largely standard practice with a few AHJ's not accepting it. There was nothing that I saw in the document that would indicate otherwise. Brad On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 11:34 PM, wrote: > Hi Jay- > Here is a somewhat dated Engineering Bulletin from Solar World with nice > diagrams. > > Mark- > NEC requires transformerless inverters to be handled differently than the > ones with transformers. > Neither DC+ or DC- is grounded, so there no ground fault fuse inside the > inverter. > Both DC+ and DC- are fused external to the inverter. > Both DC+ and DC- are switched by the DC Disconnect. > PV wire is required to better ensure against ground faults since they > become so catastrophic. > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > Jay wrote: > > > >Hi Dan > > > >Can you provide any documentation on this? > > > >Thanks Jay > >Peltz power. > > >"Mark Byington" wrote: > > > >"Transformerless inverters need fuses on both DC positive and DC negative > >legs to protect the inverter in case of ground fault." > > > > > >I could be wrong, but my understanding is that TL inverters are no > different > >than transformer type inverters in terms of DC fusing requirements - no > fuse > >required for one or two strings in parallel; fuses required on + and - > leads > >for 3 or more strings in parallel. > > > > > >Mark Byington > > > >Cobalt Power Systems, Inc > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jan 31 14:14:39 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:14:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V charge controller questions In-Reply-To: <56AD375A.4030605@sindelarsolar.com> References: <56AD375A.4030605@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <56AE5D1F.1090305@solarray.com> We were called in on a system similar to this, and we ended up just installing an AC transfer switch. Normally the GT array sold back to the grid side of the system, but in an extended outage, the customer had the option to switch the connection to the back up load side (AC coupled) He was made aware that battery regulation could be an issue, and to switch off the GT array when the batteries got even close to full. Obviously this would not be acceptable in a full time off grid system, but this option could save your bacon in the very occasional long outage. It boils down to: Is it better to let the batteries remain discharged and the customer to have no power, or take a chance on over charging the batteries in an emergency? Essentially, the system would remain full proof until they manually switched in the AC coupled system. I look at this sort of like any other manual over ride switch: don't use it unless you understand the consequences, and really need it. Add strongly worded warning stickers: " Danger Battery damage could result, Emergency use only!" The other options you are considering would certainly be better, but at significantly more cost. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/30/2016 3:21 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > I am serving as a consultant for a homeowner with an array of solar > equipment that doesn't do what he wants, a common story. He wants > independence in the event of an extended utility outage. To cut to the > chase: > > He has one array of 3,100 watts feeding through a controller into a > 48V battery bank. No issues with this. > A second array of 4,230 rated watts (2 9-module strings of 235W Sharp > modules) currently feeds a Fronius IG-4000 inverter and the grid. In > the event of an outage this system shuts down, of course. He is > looking at replacing his existing pair of old SW5548s with a single > Schneider XW system, or possibly a Radian. > I would like to give him the ability to switch from the Fronius > inverter to a 600V charge controller if either a) the grid went down > or b) the Fronius failed. > > I looked at Morningstar's TS-MPPT-600 controller with the DC transfer > switch, but its DC output is rated as limited to 60A, less than the > 4.2kW output of the array. The spec sheet gives a nominal maximum > wattage of 3,200W, although a note adds that "input power can exceed > Nominal Maximum Operating Power, but controller will limit and provide > its rated continuous maximum output current into batteries. This will > not harm the controller." > > I looked at Schneider's XW MPPT80 controller, which has the necessary > higher capacity. But beside lacking any built-in or optional input > metering, it lacks the transfer switch available with the Morningstar. > > So questions: > - Is there a good transfer switch to use with the Schneider unit, to > allow manual switching of the PV input between the Fronius (when the > grid is up) and the controller and batteries (when the grid is down)? > - Should I use the Morningstar unit, recommending that the periodic > flatlining due to the excess wattage be simply accepted as a small > concession to being able to use the array during an extended outage? > - Is AC coupling simply a better approach? > - Any other solutions? > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com Sun Jan 31 23:08:38 2016 From: rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:08:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting Message-ID: I just noticed that several of our sites with Enphase M190s are current limiting at 140 watts. These units used to clip at 199 watts so I feel like our customers just lost a potential 30% of their power output. It appears to be related to a firmware update 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00. We've got one site with just 8 units, 1 of them got this firmware update back in September and has been limiting to 140w since then, 5 of them got this update in late January and have been limiting to 140w since then, the other two are at a previous firmware version and are performing as we would expect up to 199w. Have any of you noticed this same thing? Do you know what this is about? It doesn't feel very fair on the user end of things. Sincerely, Rebecca Lundberg Powerfully Gree ​n​ Minnesota -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 31 22:22:00 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:22:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries Message-ID: <025801d15c9f$b814ee70$283ecb50$@sbcglobal.net> Our utility wanted to add a new capacity and demand charge to all solar customers' bills. And the new California Public Utilities Commission decision on net metering included a mandate for new solar installs to join Time of Use pricing by 2019. This seems to be the trend that many grid connected PV installers are going to have to adapt to. While this version of Aquion may not handle surges, we might all benefit by adapting demand side hardware like the Energy Sentry http://energysentry.com/PP-residential-controllers.php to change the shapes and timing of our loads. Whether on or off grid, this might be a value-added product we could offer our customers and possibly make new batteries more compatible. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS 66502 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 23:26:50 2016 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:26:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V charge controller questions In-Reply-To: <56AE5D1F.1090305@solarray.com> References: <56AD375A.4030605@sindelarsolar.com> <56AE5D1F.1090305@solarray.com> Message-ID: Allan, you could network multiple Morningstar 600v controllers for the output ampacity required (up to 4 controllers, ...yeah, I know they are expensive). Would you even need a transfer switch? Why not just wire Fronius IG and Morningstar controller inputs in parallel (with associated fuses and disconnects of course). Once batteries are charged and in float, the array then would be available to the IG to sell to the grid. If the IG goes down (which it prob will eventually) then the MS 600v controller will charge the batts enough to get by. Seems like it would work, am I missing something? RoyR Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:14 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > We were called in on a system similar to this, and we ended up just > installing an AC transfer switch. Normally the GT array sold back to the > grid side of the system, but in an extended outage, the customer had the > option to switch the connection to the back up load side (AC coupled) > He was made aware that battery regulation could be an issue, and to switch > off the GT array when the batteries got even close to full. Obviously this > would not be acceptable in a full time off grid system, but this option > could save your bacon in the very occasional long outage. > It boils down to: Is it better to let the batteries remain discharged and > the customer to have no power, or take a chance on over charging the > batteries in an emergency? > Essentially, the system would remain full proof until they manually > switched in the AC coupled system. I look at this sort of like any other > manual over ride switch: don't use it unless you understand the > consequences, and really need it. Add strongly worded warning stickers: " > Danger Battery damage could result, Emergency use only!" > The other options you are considering would certainly be better, but at > significantly more cost. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 1/30/2016 3:21 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > I am serving as a consultant for a homeowner with an array of solar > equipment that doesn't do what he wants, a common story. He wants > independence in the event of an extended utility outage. To cut to the > chase: > > He has one array of 3,100 watts feeding through a controller into a 48V > battery bank. No issues with this. > A second array of 4,230 rated watts (2 9-module strings of 235W Sharp > modules) currently feeds a Fronius IG-4000 inverter and the grid. In the > event of an outage this system shuts down, of course. He is looking at > replacing his existing pair of old SW5548s with a single Schneider XW > system, or possibly a Radian. > I would like to give him the ability to switch from the Fronius inverter > to a 600V charge controller if either a) the grid went down or b) the > Fronius failed. > > I looked at Morningstar's TS-MPPT-600 controller with the DC transfer > switch, but its DC output is rated as limited to 60A, less than the 4.2kW > output of the array. The spec sheet gives a nominal maximum wattage of > 3,200W, although a note adds that "input power can exceed Nominal Maximum > Operating Power, but controller will limit and provide its rated continuous > maximum output current into batteries. This will not harm the controller." > > I looked at Schneider's XW MPPT80 controller, which has the necessary > higher capacity. But beside lacking any built-in or optional input > metering, it lacks the transfer switch available with the Morningstar. > > So questions: > - Is there a good transfer switch to use with the Schneider unit, to allow > manual switching of the PV input between the Fronius (when the grid is up) > and the controller and batteries (when the grid is down)? > - Should I use the Morningstar unit, recommending that the periodic > flatlining due to the excess wattage be simply accepted as a small > concession to being able to use the array during an extended outage? > - Is AC coupling simply a better approach? > - Any other solutions? > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Feb 1 18:00:20 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 13:00:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA combi-switch Message-ID: <01b801d15d44$595fb9a0$0c1f2ce0$@com> Hola amigos y amigas. I'm desperately looking for four SMA combi-switches, the ones you apparently don't make any more. Anyone have one or more that you're willing to part with? Thanks, marco --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Feb 1 22:57:29 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 03:57:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Increasing output Amps, Off Grid Message-ID: Hello I don't think an OB Radian can be added to an existing stacked pair of FX's. At least easily and have all three inverters work happily with each other. Can it? My client is wanting more output. Even if it's just one leg of 120/240. He is planning to wire a circuit to an outbuilding. 120 v only is fine. He has overloaded the dual 3648 set up once before. I recommended another pair of FX3648 inverters with autoformer. Comments and recommendations appreciated. Thanks in advance Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 21:06:48 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 16:06:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA combi-switch In-Reply-To: <01b801d15d44$595fb9a0$0c1f2ce0$@com> References: <01b801d15d44$595fb9a0$0c1f2ce0$@com> Message-ID: Marco Are you talking about the 361 Square D switch that SMA made into a 4 pole, Jerry On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Hola amigos y amigas. > > > > I’m desperately looking for four SMA combi-switches, the ones you > apparently don’t make any more. > > > > Anyone have one or more that you’re willing to part with? > > > > Thanks, > > marco > > > ------------------------------ > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 2 00:09:26 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 21:09:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Increasing output Amps, Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy: I have often wondered this question since the Trace SW days: Since the Radian offers generator support, why not connect the FX inverters to the generator input of the Radian? Program the Radian to expect 30 amps per leg. If the load exceeds 30 amps, the Radian will kick into gen-support mode and aid the FX inverters. If the load is less than 30 amps, the Radian goes to sleep. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 7:57 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Increasing output Amps, Off Grid Hello I don't think an OB Radian can be added to an existing stacked pair of FX's. At least easily and have all three inverters work happily with each other. Can it? My client is wanting more output. Even if it's just one leg of 120/240. He is planning to wire a circuit to an outbuilding. 120 v only is fine. He has overloaded the dual 3648 set up once before. I recommended another pair of FX3648 inverters with autoformer. Comments and recommendations appreciated. Thanks in advance Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From frenergy at psln.com Tue Feb 2 10:40:29 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 07:40:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Increasing output Amps, Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56B0CDED.4060404@psln.com> You may have to buy the OB FX's on Ebay as Outback is no longer selling them....I've been told. I wish I saw that one coming. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 2/1/2016 9:09 PM, William Miller wrote: > Jeremy: > > I have often wondered this question since the Trace SW days: Since the > Radian offers generator support, why not connect the FX inverters to the > generator input of the Radian? Program the Radian to expect 30 amps per > leg. If the load exceeds 30 amps, the Radian will kick into gen-support > mode and aid the FX inverters. If the load is less than 30 amps, the > Radian goes to sleep. > > William > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez > Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 7:57 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Increasing output Amps, Off Grid > > Hello > I don't think an OB Radian can be added to an existing stacked pair of > FX's. At least easily and have all three inverters work happily with each > other. Can it? > > My client is wanting more output. Even if it's just one leg of 120/240. He > is planning to wire a circuit to an outbuilding. 120 v only is fine. He > has overloaded the dual 3648 set up once before. I recommended another > pair of FX3648 inverters with autoformer. > Comments and recommendations appreciated. > Thanks in advance > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 10:51:16 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 07:51:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Increasing output Amps, Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37CF36E5-A597-490E-A977-7DB266B01A42@gmail.com> That's a very trick way to do it! A somewhat less expensive way would be to use a 3rd VFX on the leg you want the added power on. Jay Peltz power. > On Feb 1, 2016, at 9:09 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Jeremy: > > I have often wondered this question since the Trace SW days: Since the > Radian offers generator support, why not connect the FX inverters to the > generator input of the Radian? Program the Radian to expect 30 amps per > leg. If the load exceeds 30 amps, the Radian will kick into gen-support > mode and aid the FX inverters. If the load is less than 30 amps, the > Radian goes to sleep. > > William > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez > Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 7:57 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Increasing output Amps, Off Grid > > Hello > I don't think an OB Radian can be added to an existing stacked pair of > FX's. At least easily and have all three inverters work happily with each > other. Can it? > > My client is wanting more output. Even if it's just one leg of 120/240. He > is planning to wire a circuit to an outbuilding. 120 v only is fine. He > has overloaded the dual 3648 set up once before. I recommended another > pair of FX3648 inverters with autoformer. > Comments and recommendations appreciated. > Thanks in advance > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Feb 2 11:33:19 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 06:33:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA combi-switch In-Reply-To: References: <01b801d15d44$595fb9a0$0c1f2ce0$@com> Message-ID: <001801d15dd7$6e643db0$4b2cb910$@com> Yes, indeed. With fuses. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 4:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA combi-switch Marco Are you talking about the 361 Square D switch that SMA made into a 4 pole, Jerry On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Hola amigos y amigas. I’m desperately looking for four SMA combi-switches, the ones you apparently don’t make any more. Anyone have one or more that you’re willing to part with? Thanks, marco _____ Image removed by sender. This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 2 21:15:17 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 18:15:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drop mode: who needs it? Message-ID: Friends: I have a customer who was basically victimized by a shady installer (who is no longer in the business). He was sold an undersized system with two VFX3648 inverters and later two FX2548 inverters. One of the 2548s died and it was recommended I install all new boards. I am a bit disappointed that there was no option to try and figure out which board was bad, I had to install all three. I was told the logic board has newer firmware and had to be configured as the master. I did so and we found that there was a glitch: About 5 seconds before an auto-start the AC Use/Drop screen went to Drop mode. The generator started but ran for no benefit. We resolved this by reconfiguring the system so an older VFX inverter was master and resetting all units. I have three questions: 1. Is there any known incompatibilities between versions of logic boards? 2. Is there a way to determine which board is defective and replace only that board? 3. What possible use could the drop mode have and why is it even included in the menu structure? Can’t one just open a circuit breaker and achieve the same effect? Any help is much appreciated, as always. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 3 01:16:20 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 22:16:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA combi-switch In-Reply-To: <01b801d15d44$595fb9a0$0c1f2ce0$@com> References: <01b801d15d44$595fb9a0$0c1f2ce0$@com> Message-ID: <668e372ff8e1c4600ecc3835103d7ab0@mail.gmail.com> Marco: I made my own combi-switch once. It was not worth the effort to continue but it can be built with some pretty standard stuff. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf *Sent:* Monday, February 01, 2016 3:00 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SMA combi-switch Hola amigos y amigas. I’m desperately looking for four SMA combi-switches, the ones you apparently don’t make any more. Anyone have one or more that you’re willing to part with? Thanks, marco ------------------------------ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Feb 3 09:53:19 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2016 09:53:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160203145322.8EED0105D0@che.dreamhost.com> I just got a message from a customer with the exact same problem. Have you had any luck resolving this? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 11:08 PM 1/31/2016, you wrote: >I just noticed that several of our sites with >Enphase M190s are current limiting at 140 watts. >These units used to clip at 199 watts so I feel >like our customers just lost a potential 30% of >their power output. It appears to be related to >a firmware update 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00. We've >got one site with just 8 units, 1 of them got >this firmware update back in September and has >been limiting to 140w since then, 5 of them got >this update in late January and have been >limiting to 140w since then, the other two are >at a previous firmware version and are >performing as we would expect up to 199w. Have >any of you noticed this same thing? Do you know >what this is about? It doesn't feel very fair on the user end of things. > >Sincerely, > >Rebecca Lundberg >Powerfully Gree >​n​ >Minnesota > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 11:41:27 2016 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 09:41:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04CADA24-1148-4D5C-9EB5-8B18F8D29C0C@gmail.com> Hi Rebecca, After you posted this I looked at the power production history for several of our Enphase sites with M190s, and the same thing is happening. Inverter output is being clipped at 140W across the board. This seems like a pretty big deal in terms of potential lost production for a lot of users. Have you brought this up with Enphase? -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com > On Jan 31, 2016, at 21:08, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: > > I just noticed that several of our sites with Enphase M190s are current limiting at 140 watts. These units used to clip at 199 watts so I feel like our customers just lost a potential 30% of their power output. It appears to be related to a firmware update 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00. We've got one site with just 8 units, 1 of them got this firmware update back in September and has been limiting to 140w since then, 5 of them got this update in late January and have been limiting to 140w since then, the other two are at a previous firmware version and are performing as we would expect up to 199w. Have any of you noticed this same thing? Do you know what this is about? It doesn't feel very fair on the user end of things. > > Sincerely, > > Rebecca Lundberg > Powerfully Gree​n​ > Minnesota > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at woofenden.net Wed Feb 3 11:48:02 2016 From: louis at woofenden.net (Louis Woofenden) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2016 09:48:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting In-Reply-To: <04CADA24-1148-4D5C-9EB5-8B18F8D29C0C@gmail.com> References: <04CADA24-1148-4D5C-9EB5-8B18F8D29C0C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56B22F42.7080302@woofenden.net> Hi Rebecca and all, We're experiencing the same thing on several M190 sites, though not all. Interestingly, M190s that have been replaced are not having the same problem. According to Enphase, it is a software problem. My understanding is that they are rolling back software updates on affected devices to solve the problem, but I'm not clear on the exact order that will happen. Not sure if being a squeaky wheel on particular systems is going to hurt or help. Kind of disappointing that they didn't properly beta test any software updates on all types of microinverter devices before rolling them out to all customers. Seems like that would be common sense. Best, Louis -- Louis Woofenden Engineering Director Net Zero Solar, LLC 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 Phone:520.207.4053 Ex. 2 Cell:520.237.5040 Fax:520.203.7230 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™ Luke Christy wrote: > Hi Rebecca, > After you posted this I looked at the power production history for > several of our Enphase sites with M190s, and the same thing is > happening. Inverter output is being clipped at 140W across the board. > This seems like a pretty big deal in terms of potential lost > production for a lot of users. > > Have you brought this up with Enphase? > > -Luke > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > On Jan 31, 2016, at 21:08, Rebecca Lundberg > > wrote: > >> I just noticed that several of our sites with Enphase M190s are >> current limiting at 140 watts. These units used to clip at 199 watts >> so I feel like our customers just lost a potential 30% of their power >> output. It appears to be related to a firmware update >> 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00. We've got one site with just 8 units, 1 of >> them got this firmware update back in September and has been limiting >> to 140w since then, 5 of them got this update in late January and >> have been limiting to 140w since then, the other two are at a >> previous firmware version and are performing as we would expect up to >> 199w. Have any of you noticed this same thing? Do you know what this >> is about? It doesn't feel very fair on the user end of things. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Rebecca Lundberg >> Powerfully Gree >> ​ n​ >> Minnesota >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address& settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules& etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- Louis Woofenden Engineering Director Net Zero Solar, LLC 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 Phone:520.207.4053 Ex. 2 Cell:520.237.5040 Fax:520.203.7230 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 12:13:21 2016 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 18:13:21 +0100 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Solar Edge Optimizer failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lena, That's really interesting, thanks for sharing. What I'm curious about is why the arc-fault detection in the SolarEdge inverter didn't detect any problem before the optimizers failed...as this sounds like an arc-faulting situation. I wonder if it has to do with where exactly the fault happens, on the PV/module side of the optimizer, rather than the higher voltage inverter input circuit? I've been told that arcing fault noise signatures can be detected across electronics, but I don't really know if that is true. Since the NEC doesn't require arc-fault protection on the <80V circuit, there isn't a Code issue regardless, but I'm curious to find out more about this. Best, Rebekah On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Lena Wilensky wrote: > > Thanks for the input on SolarEdge. We finally sorted the issue out. > Turns out somehow we got the wrong optimizers from our distributor - the > details are a bit cloudy since it was over a year ago. But the short is we > had optimizers with Amphenol connectors, and "Hosiden" brand MC4 connectors > on the REC modules. Apparently (we were told by the distributor at the > time of install) that Amphenol and MC4 mate just fine. And we got > confirmation from Solar Edge that they usually do mate fine. But the > Hosiden brand MC4 that comes on the REC modules are about 1/100" off from > MC4 brand MC4's, and while they mate great with MC4 brand (this is all > documented), they are a bit wide for Amphenol and will heat and stretch > over time and eventually create a small short in the connector, effectively > frying the optimizer. > > So even with manufacturer's and distributor's blessings we will only be > using matching brands of connectors from now on! I have to say that our > lower level tech support from SE was a bit lacking this time around, but > once we got moved to the higher level team they were great. Took a bit of > kicking and screaming (and 3 trips to swap out failed optimizers) to get > there, though. Thankfully it seems like SE still has a good track record > of reliability even in our neighborhood! > > Lena > > ----------------------- > > We?ve had a similar experience as Carl has on this. We have 929 kW of SE > up and running (mix of commercial and residential, so roughly 2000 actual > optimizers) with only a handful of DOA?s or infant mortalities (total of > maybe 10-15 so far). Service is reimbursed just like you say (does not > truly cover the cost, unless the job is next door). But it has not happened > enough, or in any sort of pattern for us to have gotten riled up about it > so far. > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Carl Adams > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 12:17 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge Optimizer failures > > > > Lena, > > > > We've been installing the Solar Edge product for a few years now and are > experiencing good reliability. I think we have had 2 optimizers which were > DOA from the factory. One was completely dead the other had a 25% reduced > output. No problems with warranty replacements. > > > > With Regards > > Carl Adams, SunRock Solar > > > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Lena Wilensky > wrote: > > We've had a strange set of recurring failures from one Solaredge install. > It's a straightforward 5kw system with 20 x REC 255W modules and P300-5 SE > optimizers. > > > > System was commissioned in 11/2014 and ran fine for about 6mo. At that > time one optimizer failed - gave module short circuit voltage on the > optimizer output when disconnected from the rest of the array. Nothing > visibly wrong. Rest of the array worked fine. > > > > About 3mo later (this past august), 2 more optimizers failed. We gave > Solaredge an earful, but they were only willing to send replacements for > the 2 newly failed units and 2 spare optimizers for future failures. Same > failure apparently with high output voltage from the optimizer when > disconnected from the array. They said they had never heard of this > happening multiple times and would do an optimizer autopsy. > > > > We just had another one fail 2 weeks ago. They apparently tested the 2 > failed ones from august and found no water intrusion on the optimizer or > connectors. This is all the testing they can do in the US for these potted > units. They recently sent the failed units to Israel to test them, but > don't expect results for at least 6mo or more. Solaredge claims they've > never seen anything like this and so far they have refused to send > replacements for the rest of the "good" optimizers in the array claiming > that the optimizers may not be the issue. Really? > > > > Anyone heard of or seen any "batch" failures of these optimizers? Or have > a good contact at Solaredge? I'm about ready to swap in an SMA inverter at > this point, and stay away from module level anything from now on. We're going > to have to triple our prices to pay for all this warranty work, as > Solaredge only gives $25/optimizer and $100/incident to "help" with labor > costs. > > > > Thanks for any insight.... > > > Lena Wilensky > > > (970)349-3432 > www.nunatakenergy.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installers: > Cert.#031310-177, #R02907-17 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From habitek83 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 3 15:38:44 2016 From: habitek83 at yahoo.com (Tom DeBates) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 20:38:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE;SMA Combi-Switch References: <409338179.1362947.1454531924800.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <409338179.1362947.1454531924800.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Marco,   Perhaps one of these could substitute for the Combi-Switch?Not cheap, but lots of options.Eaton solar switch line offers DC disconnect switches |   | |   | |   |   |   |   |   | | Eaton solar switch line offers DC disconnect switchesEaton’s solar switch line offers DC disconnect solutions for switching 400–600V DC photovoltaic circuits. Solar disconnect switches are UL98 listed. | | | | View on www.eaton.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | |   | Tom DeBatesHabi-Tek -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Feb 4 01:30:51 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 06:30:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Increasing output Amps, Off Grid In-Reply-To: <37CF36E5-A597-490E-A977-7DB266B01A42@gmail.com> References: , <37CF36E5-A597-490E-A977-7DB266B01A42@gmail.com> Message-ID: I spoke with Outback today and I've got some options for sure, from everyone. Thanks! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:59 AM, Jay wrote: > > That's a very trick way to do it! > > A somewhat less expensive way would be to use a 3rd VFX on the leg you want the added power on. > > Jay > Peltz power. > >> On Feb 1, 2016, at 9:09 PM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Jeremy: >> >> I have often wondered this question since the Trace SW days: Since the >> Radian offers generator support, why not connect the FX inverters to the >> generator input of the Radian? Program the Radian to expect 30 amps per >> leg. If the load exceeds 30 amps, the Radian will kick into gen-support >> mode and aid the FX inverters. If the load is less than 30 amps, the >> Radian goes to sleep. >> >> William >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez >> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 7:57 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Increasing output Amps, Off Grid >> >> Hello >> I don't think an OB Radian can be added to an existing stacked pair of >> FX's. At least easily and have all three inverters work happily with each >> other. Can it? >> >> My client is wanting more output. Even if it's just one leg of 120/240. He >> is planning to wire a circuit to an outbuilding. 120 v only is fine. He >> has overloaded the dual 3648 set up once before. I recommended another >> pair of FX3648 inverters with autoformer. >> Comments and recommendations appreciated. >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm >> l >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Feb 4 11:33:55 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 11:33:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian ROCB in Outback GSLC 120/240 AC Message-ID: <20160204163458.2934C102B5@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, I'm hooking up a Radian with a Remote Operated Circuit Breaker for AC coupling. With only the positive inverter cable connected, we found battery voltage at the negative inverter cable with all switches off. Humm. It turns out that the Remote Operated Circuit Breaker (ROCB) control circuit is the culprit. This is factory connected to the battery side of the main breakers in the GS Load Center. The voltage present gave my assistant a minor shock when he tried to hook the negative inverter cable to the battery. When the negative battery cable lug touched the negative battery terminal, a sound came from somewhere that sounded like a super fast relay chatter. One tech support person thought it could be the ROCB trying to close, as it was open (off) position. The tech support people are only able to speculate about what might be happening. Another tech support person said that if the factory wiring on the relays was correct, it would be impossible to get a shock. Going thought the diagram in figure 2 of the attachment, it looks to me that voltage would conduct to the negative battery cables if all the relay contacts were positioned as shown in figure 2. Has anyone hooked up the GSLC AC 120/240? Have you had any unusual voltages or noises before turning on the main DC breakers? From Figure 2, do you think it would be possible to get a complete circuit through the relays before the main breaker is turned on? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rocb_instruc_rev_a.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 384834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 11:56:55 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 12:56:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian ROCB in Outback GSLC 120/240 AC In-Reply-To: <20160204163458.2934C102B5@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160204163458.2934C102B5@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: You are probably getting a shock from the neutral leg of the coil, looking for a path to neutral. It's likely that there is not enough current to be harmful. On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm hooking up a Radian with a Remote Operated Circuit Breaker for AC > coupling. With only the positive inverter cable connected, we found > battery voltage at the negative inverter cable with all switches off. Humm. > > It turns out that the Remote Operated Circuit Breaker (ROCB) control > circuit is the culprit. This is factory connected to the battery side of > the main breakers in the GS Load Center. The voltage present gave my > assistant a minor shock when he tried to hook the negative inverter cable > to the battery. > > When the negative battery cable lug touched the negative battery terminal, > a sound came from somewhere that sounded like a super fast relay chatter. > One tech support person thought it could be the ROCB trying to close, as it > was open (off) position. The tech support people are only able to speculate > about what might be happening. > > Another tech support person said that if the factory wiring on the relays > was correct, it would be impossible to get a shock. Going thought the > diagram in figure 2 of the attachment, it looks to me that voltage would > conduct to the negative battery cables if all the relay contacts were > positioned as shown in figure 2. > > Has anyone hooked up the GSLC AC 120/240? Have you had any unusual > voltages or noises before turning on the main DC breakers? From Figure 2, > do you think it would be possible to get a complete circuit through the > relays before the main breaker is turned on? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > This email has been sent from a > virus-free computer protected by Avast. > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 4 13:25:08 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 11:25:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian ROCB in Outback GSLC 120/240 AC In-Reply-To: <20160204163458.2934C102B5@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160204163458.2934C102B5@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <56B39784.6010106@solarray.com> What batteries are you using? I've had flooded lead acid batteries have several mA of current flowing to ground through the acid mist along the side of the battery. I had the battery bank supposedly isolated but got a shock and traced the connection to ground to the middle of the battery pack. I removed the "offending battery" and the ground connection just jumped to another cell. Very bizarre, but definitely a real shock. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/4/2016 9:33 AM, Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm hooking up a Radian with a Remote Operated Circuit Breaker for AC > coupling. With only the positive inverter cable connected, we found > battery voltage at the negative inverter cable with all switches off. > Humm. > > It turns out that the Remote Operated Circuit Breaker (ROCB) control > circuit is the culprit. This is factory connected to the battery side > of the main breakers in the GS Load Center. The voltage present gave > my assistant a minor shock when he tried to hook the negative inverter > cable to the battery. > > When the negative battery cable lug touched the negative battery > terminal, a sound came from somewhere that sounded like a super fast > relay chatter. One tech support person thought it could be the ROCB > trying to close, as it was open (off) position. The tech support > people are only able to speculate about what might be happening. > > Another tech support person said that if the factory wiring on the > relays was correct, it would be impossible to get a shock. Going > thought the diagram in figure 2 of the attachment, it looks to me that > voltage would conduct to the negative battery cables if all the relay > contacts were positioned as shown in figure 2. > > Has anyone hooked up the GSLC AC 120/240? Have you had any unusual > voltages or noises before turning on the main DC breakers? From Figure > 2, do you think it would be possible to get a complete circuit through > the relays before the main breaker is turned on? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > This email has been sent from a > virus-free computer protected by Avast. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Feb 4 14:07:30 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 14:07:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian ROCB in Outback GSLC 120/240 AC In-Reply-To: References: <20160204163458.2934C102B5@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20160204190734.3C05DAE05B@homiemail-a91.g.dreamhost.com> A knowledgeable person from Outback got back to me. The shock comes through the windings of the motor. The noise was due to the motor kicking on without the logic circuits from the inverter relays to control it (since the DC breakers were off). The motor pulls less than an amp. At 11:56 AM 2/4/2016, you wrote: >You are probably getting a shock from the >neutral leg of the coil, looking for a path to >neutral. It's likely that there is not enough current to be harmful. > >On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Hello Wrenches, > >I'm hooking up a Radian with a Remote Operated >Circuit Breaker for AC coupling. With only the >positive inverter cable connected, we found >battery voltage at the negative inverter cable with all switches off. Humm. > >It turns out that the Remote Operated Circuit >Breaker (ROCB) control circuit is the culprit. >This is factory connected to the battery side of >the main breakers in the GS Load Center. The >voltage present gave my assistant a minor shock >when he tried to hook the negative inverter cable to the battery. > >When the negative battery cable lug touched the >negative battery terminal, a sound came from >somewhere that sounded like a super fast relay >chatter. One tech support person thought it >could be the ROCB trying to close, as it was >open (off) position. The tech support people are >only able to speculate about what might be happening. > >Another tech support person said that if the >factory wiring on the relays was correct, it >would be impossible to get a shock. Going >thought the diagram in figure 2 of the >attachment, it looks to me that voltage would >conduct to the negative battery cables if all >the relay contacts were positioned as shown in figure 2. > >Has anyone hooked up the GSLC AC 120/240? Have >you had any unusual voltages or noises before >turning on the main DC breakers? From Figure 2, >do you think it would be possible to get a >complete circuit through the relays before the main breaker is turned on? > >Thanks, > >Drake > > >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > > > >[] > This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. >www.avast.com > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > >-- >Chris Mason >NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >Solar Design Engineer >Generac Generators Industrial technician > >www.cometsolar.com >264.235.5670 >869.662.5670 >Skype: netconcepts >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Feb 4 19:12:43 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 19:12:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting In-Reply-To: <56B22F42.7080302@woofenden.net> References: <04CADA24-1148-4D5C-9EB5-8B18F8D29C0C@gmail.com> <56B22F42.7080302@woofenden.net> Message-ID: <00fe01d15fa9$eef3c580$ccdb5080$@solarandwindfx.com> To all, This is a project that I did back in 2009 and hearing of this made me wonder. As you can see below in the spring shot it’s all good. I should point out that this is a DAT and I have had a failure of a single module but none on the M190’s. Best of luck, Christopher Schaefer cid:EB9951D7-9416-4A0B-9348-0AB528A6FD7F From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Louis Woofenden Sent: Wednesday, 03 February, 2016 11:48 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting Hi Rebecca and all, We're experiencing the same thing on several M190 sites, though not all. Interestingly, M190s that have been replaced are not having the same problem. According to Enphase, it is a software problem. My understanding is that they are rolling back software updates on affected devices to solve the problem, but I'm not clear on the exact order that will happen. Not sure if being a squeaky wheel on particular systems is going to hurt or help. Kind of disappointing that they didn't properly beta test any software updates on all types of microinverter devices before rolling them out to all customers. Seems like that would be common sense. Best, Louis -- Louis Woofenden Engineering Director Net Zero Solar, LLC 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 Phone: 520.207.4053 Ex. 2 Cell: 520.237.5040 Fax: 520.203.7230 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™ Luke Christy wrote: Hi Rebecca, After you posted this I looked at the power production history for several of our Enphase sites with M190s, and the same thing is happening. Inverter output is being clipped at 140W across the board. This seems like a pretty big deal in terms of potential lost production for a lot of users. Have you brought this up with Enphase? -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com On Jan 31, 2016, at 21:08, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: I just noticed that several of our sites with Enphase M190s are current limiting at 140 watts. These units used to clip at 199 watts so I feel like our customers just lost a potential 30% of their power output. It appears to be related to a firmware update 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00. We've got one site with just 8 units, 1 of them got this firmware update back in September and has been limiting to 140w since then, 5 of them got this update in late January and have been limiting to 140w since then, the other two are at a previous firmware version and are performing as we would expect up to 199w. Have any of you noticed this same thing? Do you know what this is about? It doesn't feel very fair on the user end of things. Sincerely, Rebecca Lundberg Powerfully Gree ​ n​ Minnesota _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -- Louis Woofenden Engineering Director Net Zero Solar, LLC 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 Phone: 520.207.4053 Ex. 2 Cell: 520.237.5040 Fax: 520.203.7230 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 152751 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amfrish at aeonsolar.com Thu Feb 4 19:19:31 2016 From: amfrish at aeonsolar.com (Allen Frishman) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 19:19:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shade analysis software for New Construction Message-ID: <3676A157-B155-496B-B45D-54A6920B1B2E@aeonsolar.com> Hey Wrenchers, Anyone know of a good software tool that provides estimated performance data for a solar array on a New Construction building that has not yet been built? Specifically looking for a user friendly program that I can sketch a design to scale and have a report generated showing the estimated annual performance for the system. Appreciate all feedback. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com Thu Feb 4 19:45:47 2016 From: rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 18:45:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting Message-ID: Thanks for the reply. I reported it to Enphase but have not heard back yet. Since one of these updates happened 5 months ago I was surprised the manufacturer hadn't notified installers in the interim before they did a more wide spread update, which is why I wrote to this list. I'm not in tech support, but seeing what it did to our inverter back 5 months ago I certainly wouldn't have continued the 'upgrade' and pushed that firmware update to the rest of the units! I think most people didn't notice so they just went ahead. I know MN temperatures are more extreme than other parts of the country so perhaps we've seen more failures than others have. But this site with 8 M190s was doing just fine before the 'update.' Rebecca > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Louis Woofenden > Sent: Wednesday, 03 February, 2016 11:48 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting > > > Hi Rebecca and all, > > We're experiencing the same thing on several M190 sites, though not all. > Interestingly, M190s that have been replaced are not having the same > problem. > > According to Enphase, it is a software problem. My understanding is that > they are rolling back software updates on affected devices to solve the > problem, but I'm not clear on the exact order that will happen. > > Not sure if being a squeaky wheel on particular systems is going to hurt > or help. Kind of disappointing that they didn't properly beta test any > software updates on all types of microinverter devices before rolling them > out to all customers. Seems like that would be common sense. > > Best, > Louis > > -- > > Louis Woofenden > Engineering Director > Net Zero Solar, LLC > 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 > > Phone: 520.207.4053 Ex. 2 > > Cell: 520.237.5040 > Fax: 520.203.7230 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer? > > > > Luke Christy wrote: > > > > Hi Rebecca, > > After you posted this I looked at the power production history for several > of our Enphase sites with M190s, and the same thing is happening. Inverter > output is being clipped at 140W across the board. > > This seems like a pretty big deal in terms of potential lost production > for a lot of users. > > > > Have you brought this up with Enphase? > > > > -Luke > > > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional?: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer?: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > On Jan 31, 2016, at 21:08, Rebecca Lundberg < > rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com> wrote: > > I just noticed that several of our sites with Enphase M190s are current > limiting at 140 watts. These units used to clip at 199 watts so I feel like > our customers just lost a potential 30% of their power output. It appears > to be related to a firmware update 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00. We've got one > site with just 8 units, 1 of them got this firmware update back in > September and has been limiting to 140w since then, 5 of them got this > update in late January and have been limiting to 140w since then, the other > two are at a previous firmware version and are performing as we would > expect up to 199w. Have any of you noticed this same thing? Do you know > what this is about? It doesn't feel very fair on the user end of things. > > Sincerely, > > > Rebecca Lundberg > Powerfully Gree > > ? n? > > Minnesota > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > -- > > Louis Woofenden > Engineering Director > Net Zero Solar, LLC > 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 > > Phone: 520.207.4053 Ex. 2 > > Cell: 520.237.5040 > Fax: 520.203.7230 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer? > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160204/030202bc/attachment.htm > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/png > Size: 152751 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160204/030202bc/attachment.png > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 9, Issue 51 > ****************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 4 22:37:19 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 21:37:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shade analysis software for New Construction In-Reply-To: <3676A157-B155-496B-B45D-54A6920B1B2E@aeonsolar.com> References: <3676A157-B155-496B-B45D-54A6920B1B2E@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: <058d01d15fc6$84f272e0$8ed758a0$@sbcglobal.net> Sketch Up and it's free Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allen Frishman Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 6:20 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shade analysis software for New Construction Hey Wrenchers, Anyone know of a good software tool that provides estimated performance data for a solar array on a New Construction building that has not yet been built? Specifically looking for a user friendly program that I can sketch a design to scale and have a report generated showing the estimated annual performance for the system. Appreciate all feedback. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 06:15:29 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 07:15:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shade analysis software for New Construction In-Reply-To: <3676A157-B155-496B-B45D-54A6920B1B2E@aeonsolar.com> References: <3676A157-B155-496B-B45D-54A6920B1B2E@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: Sketchip with Skelion plugin. On Feb 4, 2016 20:16, "Allen Frishman" wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > Anyone know of a good software tool that provides estimated performance > data for a solar array on a New Construction building that has not yet been > built? Specifically looking for a user friendly program that I can sketch > a design to scale and have a report generated showing the estimated annual > performance for the system. > > Appreciate all feedback. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 10:31:39 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 07:31:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery enclosures Message-ID: Hi all I have a customer who has an old outback PS1-be. ( long extinct) Battery enclosure that holds 4 group 27 12v batteries. Anybody know of anything similar? He wants to add but I can't find anything in a similar shape. I.e. Tall and narrow. Any suggestions? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From daniel at greenwired.com Fri Feb 5 13:33:28 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 11:33:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid tied systems with seperate generator back up Message-ID: Esteemed colleagues- We are finding more and more clients with existing utility back up generators that are wanting grid inter tied solar systems. Many of these clients are not willing to go the extra mile to interface the solar system with the back up gen. I am wondering if any of you out there have found simple fail safe solutions for preventing generator back feed when relays and switch gear are difficult or impossible to implement. I have been thinking perhaps a large enough diode on the gen output could do it, but then what happens to the grid tied inverter when there is no where for the power to go? I know this is vague, but I am searching the hive to see if there is a better way to make these customers happy and make the sale. Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Feb 5 12:51:58 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 12:51:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery enclosures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160205175209.AA8731024C@che.dreamhost.com> Not too hard to build with Unistrut and skin with plywood. -----Original Message----- From: "Jay" Sent: ‎2/‎5/‎2016 10:31 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery enclosures Hi all I have a customer who has an old outback PS1-be. ( long extinct) Battery enclosure that holds 4 group 27 12v batteries. Anybody know of anything similar? He wants to add but I can't find anything in a similar shape. I.e. Tall and narrow. Any suggestions? Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 5 12:56:38 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 09:56:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery enclosures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FB4B707-5E20-4CA2-BE95-DB6A7DDFB1EC@millersolar.com> Power wall? > On Feb 5, 2016, at 7:31 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > I have a customer who has an old outback PS1-be. ( long extinct) > Battery enclosure that holds 4 group 27 12v batteries. > > Anybody know of anything similar? He wants to add but I can't find anything in a similar shape. I.e. Tall and narrow. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 13:45:21 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 08:45:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid tied systems with seperate generator back up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches My best solution is connect the pv unstream of the tranfer switch, if that is not an option install a contactor in the pv AC side output and connect that upstream of the genny, you can also connect the supply power to the genny side. Either way you look at dont let the PV and genny play together. Jerry On Feb 5, 2016 8:33 AM, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: > Esteemed colleagues- > > We are finding more and more clients with existing utility back up > generators that are wanting grid inter tied solar systems. Many of these > clients are not willing to go the extra mile to interface the solar system > with the back up gen. I am wondering if any of you out there have found > simple fail safe solutions for preventing generator back feed when relays > and switch gear are difficult or impossible to implement. > > I have been thinking perhaps a large enough diode on the gen output could > do it, but then what happens to the grid tied inverter when there is no > where for the power to go? > > I know this is vague, but I am searching the hive to see if there is a > better way to make these customers happy and make the sale. > > Thanks > Daniel > > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Feb 5 14:39:34 2016 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 19:39:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drop mode: who needs it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CB023DC@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> William, I know there was a point that they changed processors, when they did that it made the power assembly, control assembly, and the ac assembly incompatible. I agree with you that it would have been nice that they could have maintained this, but this change was quite some time ago, at least 7-8 years ago. I know for a fact they did stock both sets for a while, way past the normal warranty requirements. From what I remember the processor change was due to availability, the old processor was no longer manufactured… So to fix this Outback was forced to upgrade the processer. As for the drop mode, I’ve never has much of a use for it… But when mixing firmware revs normally using the most current version is best… this may be something that wasn’t tested as Outback has a lot of software mods. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:rolls877174] From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 6:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drop mode: who needs it? Friends: I have a customer who was basically victimized by a shady installer (who is no longer in the business). He was sold an undersized system with two VFX3648 inverters and later two FX2548 inverters. One of the 2548s died and it was recommended I install all new boards. I am a bit disappointed that there was no option to try and figure out which board was bad, I had to install all three. I was told the logic board has newer firmware and had to be configured as the master. I did so and we found that there was a glitch: About 5 seconds before an auto-start the AC Use/Drop screen went to Drop mode. The generator started but ran for no benefit. We resolved this by reconfiguring the system so an older VFX inverter was master and resetting all units. I have three questions: 1. Is there any known incompatibilities between versions of logic boards? 2. Is there a way to determine which board is defective and replace only that board? 3. What possible use could the drop mode have and why is it even included in the menu structure? Can’t one just open a circuit breaker and achieve the same effect? Any help is much appreciated, as always. Sincerely, William Miller [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rolls877174 Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: rolls877174 URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 14:52:52 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick Shortell) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 14:52:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid tied systems with seperate generator back up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Daniel, Ive done this with 4- 5048 sunny islands. 2 per phase generac smart switch service entrance rated transfer switch. no critical load panel, output of islands feeds main panel, (100a) On grid loss, Transfer switch opens, Islands take over from batteries/solar. Aux relay in master sunny island spoofs genny controller, via relay, that grid is still present. generator does not start. When batteries drop to 80%SOC, SI master relay pulls in genny relay "tells" SI master genny is running and blocks reverse current (back towards grid). Genny runs till batteries are at 90% SOC. When grid comes back, transfer switch closes, life goes back to normal. Customer has 20kw of Enphase PV. Frequency shifting of islands controls inverters. After hurricane Sandy, he ran for a month without the genny even coming on using whatever he wanted.His november consumption not very high. Lights never blinked. Customer is an enthusiast, not our typical customer. this is a pretty simple sequence of operation but it took me forever to wrap my mind around how simple it really was. Generator and grid are tied together ahead of ac in terminals in the island. Pat On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > Esteemed colleagues- > > We are finding more and more clients with existing utility back up > generators that are wanting grid inter tied solar systems. Many of these > clients are not willing to go the extra mile to interface the solar system > with the back up gen. I am wondering if any of you out there have found > simple fail safe solutions for preventing generator back feed when relays > and switch gear are difficult or impossible to implement. > > I have been thinking perhaps a large enough diode on the gen output could > do it, but then what happens to the grid tied inverter when there is no > where for the power to go? > > I know this is vague, but I am searching the hive to see if there is a > better way to make these customers happy and make the sale. > > Thanks > Daniel > > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 14:34:38 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 15:34:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid tied systems with seperate generator back up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A general smart management module will sense the generator is running and disconnect the inverter. No wires required. On Feb 5, 2016 14:33, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: > Esteemed colleagues- > > We are finding more and more clients with existing utility back up > generators that are wanting grid inter tied solar systems. Many of these > clients are not willing to go the extra mile to interface the solar system > with the back up gen. I am wondering if any of you out there have found > simple fail safe solutions for preventing generator back feed when relays > and switch gear are difficult or impossible to implement. > > I have been thinking perhaps a large enough diode on the gen output could > do it, but then what happens to the grid tied inverter when there is no > where for the power to go? > > I know this is vague, but I am searching the hive to see if there is a > better way to make these customers happy and make the sale. > > Thanks > Daniel > > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 14:35:15 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 15:35:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid tied systems with seperate generator back up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, autocorrect. A Generac smart management module. On Feb 5, 2016 15:34, "Chris Mason" wrote: > A general smart management module will sense the generator is running and > disconnect the inverter. No wires required. > On Feb 5, 2016 14:33, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: > >> Esteemed colleagues- >> >> We are finding more and more clients with existing utility back up >> generators that are wanting grid inter tied solar systems. Many of these >> clients are not willing to go the extra mile to interface the solar system >> with the back up gen. I am wondering if any of you out there have found >> simple fail safe solutions for preventing generator back feed when relays >> and switch gear are difficult or impossible to implement. >> >> I have been thinking perhaps a large enough diode on the gen output >> could do it, but then what happens to the grid tied inverter when there is >> no where for the power to go? >> >> I know this is vague, but I am searching the hive to see if there is a >> better way to make these customers happy and make the sale. >> >> Thanks >> Daniel >> >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> CTO >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Feb 5 13:54:28 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 13:54:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid tied systems with seperate generator back up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160205185440.952FE1083F@che.dreamhost.com> Supply side connection. -----Original Message----- From: "Daniel Tittmann" Sent: ‎2/‎5/‎2016 13:33 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid tied systems with seperate generator back up Esteemed colleagues- We are finding more and more clients with existing utility back up generators that are wanting grid inter tied solar systems. Many of these clients are not willing to go the extra mile to interface the solar system with the back up gen. I am wondering if any of you out there have found simple fail safe solutions for preventing generator back feed when relays and switch gear are difficult or impossible to implement. I have been thinking perhaps a large enough diode on the gen output could do it, but then what happens to the grid tied inverter when there is no where for the power to go? I know this is vague, but I am searching the hive to see if there is a better way to make these customers happy and make the sale. Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Feb 5 15:30:34 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 13:30:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Drop_mode=3A_who_needs_it=3F?= Message-ID: <20160205133034.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.aa6dc7e125.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rolls877174 Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Feb 5 15:42:55 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 15:42:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid tied systems with seperate generator back up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, Can the GSMM be used with non Generac generators? Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Feb 5, 2016 3:17 PM, "Chris Mason" wrote: > Sorry, autocorrect. A Generac smart management module. > On Feb 5, 2016 15:34, "Chris Mason" wrote: > >> A general smart management module will sense the generator is running and >> disconnect the inverter. No wires required. >> On Feb 5, 2016 14:33, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: >> >>> Esteemed colleagues- >>> >>> We are finding more and more clients with existing utility back up >>> generators that are wanting grid inter tied solar systems. Many of these >>> clients are not willing to go the extra mile to interface the solar system >>> with the back up gen. I am wondering if any of you out there have found >>> simple fail safe solutions for preventing generator back feed when relays >>> and switch gear are difficult or impossible to implement. >>> >>> I have been thinking perhaps a large enough diode on the gen output >>> could do it, but then what happens to the grid tied inverter when there is >>> no where for the power to go? >>> >>> I know this is vague, but I am searching the hive to see if there is a >>> better way to make these customers happy and make the sale. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Daniel >>> >>> >>> Daniel Tittmann >>> CTO >>> Greenwired >>> www.greenwired.com >>> daniel at greenwired.com >>> 707-923-2001 (office) >>> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wayne at pureenergysolar.com Fri Feb 5 17:33:43 2016 From: wayne at pureenergysolar.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:33:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drop mode: who needs it? In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CB023DC@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: , <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712CB023DC@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: Living off grid, I have found "drop" to be useful for time's (at night) when using small generator (6.5kw) to assist with the batteries but we want to run the microwave for a few minutes which can bog down the generator. Yes flipping the breaker will do the same thing. But breakers don't auto reset. Can also be useful for exercising batteries with GT system. Wayne Irwin P.E.S. Sent from my mobile device From: steve at surrette.com To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 19:39:34 +0000 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Drop mode: who needs it? William, I know there was a point that they changed processors, when they did that it made the power assembly, control assembly, and the ac assembly incompatible. I agree with you that it would have been nice that they could have maintained this, but this change was quite some time ago, at least 7-8 years ago. I know for a fact they did stock both sets for a while, way past the normal warranty requirements. >From what I remember the processor change was due to availability, the old processor was no longer manufactured… So to fix this Outback was forced to upgrade the processer. As for the drop mode, I’ve never has much of a use for it… But when mixing firmware revs normally using the most current version is best… this may be something that wasn’t tested as Outback has a lot of software mods. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 6:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drop mode: who needs it? Friends: I have a customer who was basically victimized by a shady installer (who is no longer in the business). He was sold an undersized system with two VFX3648 inverters and later two FX2548 inverters. One of the 2548s died and it was recommended I install all new boards. I am a bit disappointed that there was no option to try and figure out which board was bad, I had to install all three. I was told the logic board has newer firmware and had to be configured as the master. I did so and we found that there was a glitch: About 5 seconds before an auto-start the AC Use/Drop screen went to Drop mode. The generator started but ran for no benefit. We resolved this by reconfiguring the system so an older VFX inverter was master and resetting all units. I have three questions: 1. Is there any known incompatibilities between versions of logic boards? 2. Is there a way to determine which board is defective and replace only that board? 3. What possible use could the drop mode have and why is it even included in the menu structure? Can’t one just open a circuit breaker and achieve the same effect? Any help is much appreciated, as always. Sincerely, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rolls877174 Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 18:24:00 2016 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:24:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Enclosures Message-ID: I'd recommend going to usplastic.com and looking at their high density polyethylene rectangular tanks. I think the brand is Tamco. They come in a variety of sizes. They are sturdy 1/4" poly. You can get fitted lids. It's easy to hole saw them for conduit. I have used them a few times for small battery banks. If necessary you could combine two of them with conduit for a larger bank. They are acid proof and neat looking. They are a bit pricey, but consider the hassle and cost of getting together materials, assembly, lining, painting, etc. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Solar Gain, LLC Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From benn at skyfireenergy.com Sun Feb 7 13:12:01 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 11:12:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Secure/support PV wire requirements? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris, I'm just looking into re-stocking some cable ties and came across this thread when searching my email for cable tie/management part numbers... The photos you shared remind me of a system i saw recently that was installed by a competitor here (and who happens to teach a PV install training course). The system i saw is similar in that there are many PV wires clearly visible, unprotected and laying on the roof and these are a perfect example of inspectors not doing their job properly. I get it that "liability" keeps electrical inspectors from climbing ladders onto the roof to inspect the array install up close, but when poor wire management like these examples can clearly be seen from the ground and the inspectors are not noting the wire management (or lack of) as a deficiency.... they are either not properly trained in what to look for and have no place inspecting PV systems or are simply not doing their job properly and have no place inspecting anything. *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 9:01 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > I just have to post an example of how to do it wrong (courtesy of one of > my competitors). Pictures attached. This passed an inspection... > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:06 AM, Rebekah Hren > wrote: > >> Hi, >> Wondering if anyone has insight into Code requirements for >> securing/supporting PV wire behind the modules? >> >> I am aware that USE-2 sends you to Section 334.30 requirements for Type >> NM (12" from box, every 4.5 '). >> >> However, I think this is totally bogus, for 2 reasons. >> 1) Section 338.10(B)(4)(b) that refers the NM article is titled "Branch >> circuits or Feeders." These are PV source and output circuits, not branch >> circuits or feeders. >> >> 2) it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to secure the PV wire within 12" of the module >> junction box for many modules, especially in landscape wiring, without >> causing more harm than good, too tight a bending radius, stress on >> conductors. >> >> 334.40(B) maybe leaves a little wiggle room for concealed spaces in >> structures where it is impracticable to support. >> >> My big problem here is that both requirements of 334.30 are useless or >> harmful to PV systems. 12" to the box is often impossible, and 4.5" feet is >> too long to go without any support behind the array!!! I just noticed there >> was a proposal in 2017 to Codify the 334.40 requirements for PV cables and >> so I guess I only have myself to blame for not writing a better proposal at >> this point. >> >> Rebekah >> -- >> Tel: 336.266.8800 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 >> NC Licensed Electrical Contractor >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at woofenden.net Mon Feb 8 11:25:51 2016 From: louis at woofenden.net (Louis Woofenden) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 09:25:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56B8C18F.9060005@woofenden.net> FYI, our affected systems with Enphase M190s are back to normal as of Saturday morning. I hope that's the case for others as well. Cheers, Louis Rebecca Lundberg wrote: > Thanks for the reply. I reported it to Enphase but have not heard back > yet. Since one of these updates happened 5 months ago I was surprised > the manufacturer hadn't notified installers in the interim before they > did a more wide spread update, which is why I wrote to this list. I'm > not in tech support, but seeing what it did to our inverter back 5 > months ago I certainly wouldn't have continued the 'upgrade' and > pushed that firmware update to the rest of the units! I think most > people didn't notice so they just went ahead. I know MN temperatures > are more extreme than other parts of the country so perhaps we've seen > more failures than others have. But this site with 8 M190s was doing > just fine before the 'update.' > > Rebecca > > > > From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On Behalf Of > Louis Woofenden > Sent: Wednesday, 03 February, 2016 11:48 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting > > > Hi Rebecca and all, > > We're experiencing the same thing on several M190 sites, though > not all. Interestingly, M190s that have been replaced are not > having the same problem. > > According to Enphase, it is a software problem. My understanding > is that they are rolling back software updates on affected devices > to solve the problem, but I'm not clear on the exact order that > will happen. > > Not sure if being a squeaky wheel on particular systems is going > to hurt or help. Kind of disappointing that they didn't properly > beta test any software updates on all types of microinverter > devices before rolling them out to all customers. Seems like that > would be common sense. > > Best, > Louis > > -- > > Louis Woofenden > Engineering Director > Net Zero Solar, LLC > 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 > > Phone: 520.207.4053 Ex. 2 > > Cell: 520.237.5040 > Fax: 520.203.7230 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer? > > > > Luke Christy wrote: > > > > Hi Rebecca, > > After you posted this I looked at the power production history for > several of our Enphase sites with M190s, and the same thing is > happening. Inverter output is being clipped at 140W across the board. > > This seems like a pretty big deal in terms of potential lost > production for a lot of users. > > > > Have you brought this up with Enphase? > > > > -Luke > > > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional?: Certification > #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer?: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > On Jan 31, 2016, at 21:08, Rebecca Lundberg > > wrote: > > I just noticed that several of our sites with Enphase M190s are > current limiting at 140 watts. These units used to clip at 199 > watts so I feel like our customers just lost a potential 30% of > their power output. It appears to be related to a firmware update > 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00. We've got one site with just 8 units, 1 > of them got this firmware update back in September and has been > limiting to 140w since then, 5 of them got this update in late > January and have been limiting to 140w since then, the other two > are at a previous firmware version and are performing as we would > expect up to 199w. Have any of you noticed this same thing? Do you > know what this is about? It doesn't feel very fair on the user end > of things. > > Sincerely, > > > Rebecca Lundberg > Powerfully Gree > > ? n? > > Minnesota > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > -- > > Louis Woofenden > Engineering Director > Net Zero Solar, LLC > 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 > > Phone: > 520.207.4053 > Ex. 2 > > Cell: > 520.237.5040 > > Fax: > 520.203.7230 > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer? > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/png > Size: 152751 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 9, Issue 51 > ****************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address& settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules& etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Mon Feb 8 12:02:54 2016 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 09:02:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting In-Reply-To: <56B8C18F.9060005@woofenden.net> References: <56B8C18F.9060005@woofenden.net> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, As several Wrenches notices, Enphase did recently perform an optimization firmware update to a subset of legacy products for which it was unintended. This caused a minor delta in energy-production on some units. The problem was quickly identified and we worked diligently to correct the issue. We sent out firmware updates to the affected sites on Friday, which should have corrected these issues. We apologize for any inconvenience this has caused. On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Louis Woofenden wrote: > > FYI, our affected systems with Enphase M190s are back to normal as of > Saturday morning. I hope that's the case for others as well. > > Cheers, > Louis > > > Rebecca Lundberg wrote: > > Thanks for the reply. I reported it to Enphase but have not heard back > yet. Since one of these updates happened 5 months ago I was surprised the > manufacturer hadn't notified installers in the interim before they did a > more wide spread update, which is why I wrote to this list. I'm not in tech > support, but seeing what it did to our inverter back 5 months ago I > certainly wouldn't have continued the 'upgrade' and pushed that firmware > update to the rest of the units! I think most people didn't notice so they > just went ahead. I know MN temperatures are more extreme than other parts > of the country so perhaps we've seen more failures than others have. But > this site with 8 M190s was doing just fine before the 'update.' > > Rebecca > > >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Louis Woofenden >> Sent: Wednesday, 03 February, 2016 11:48 >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 current limiting >> >> >> Hi Rebecca and all, >> >> We're experiencing the same thing on several M190 sites, though not all. >> Interestingly, M190s that have been replaced are not having the same >> problem. >> >> According to Enphase, it is a software problem. My understanding is that >> they are rolling back software updates on affected devices to solve the >> problem, but I'm not clear on the exact order that will happen. >> >> Not sure if being a squeaky wheel on particular systems is going to hurt >> or help. Kind of disappointing that they didn't properly beta test any >> software updates on all types of microinverter devices before rolling them >> out to all customers. Seems like that would be common sense. >> >> Best, >> Louis >> >> -- >> >> Louis Woofenden >> Engineering Director >> Net Zero Solar, LLC >> 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 >> Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 >> >> Phone: <520.207.4053> 520.207.4053 Ex. 2 >> >> Cell: <520.237.5040> 520.237.5040 >> Fax: <520.203.7230> 520.203.7230 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? >> NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer? >> >> >> >> Luke Christy wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Rebecca, >> >> After you posted this I looked at the power production history for >> several of our Enphase sites with M190s, and the same thing is happening. >> Inverter output is being clipped at 140W across the board. >> >> This seems like a pretty big deal in terms of potential lost production >> for a lot of users. >> >> >> >> Have you brought this up with Enphase? >> >> >> >> -Luke >> >> >> >> >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional?: Certification #031409-25 >> NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer?: Certification #ST032611-03 >> CoSEIA Certified PV Installer >> >> Solar Gain Services, LLC >> PO Box 531 >> Monte Vista, CO 81144 >> sgsrenewables at gmail.com >> 719.588.3044 >> www.sgsrenewables.com >> >> >> On Jan 31, 2016, at 21:08, Rebecca Lundberg < >> rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com> wrote: >> >> I just noticed that several of our sites with Enphase M190s are current >> limiting at 140 watts. These units used to clip at 199 watts so I feel like >> our customers just lost a potential 30% of their power output. It appears >> to be related to a firmware update 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00. We've got one >> site with just 8 units, 1 of them got this firmware update back in >> September and has been limiting to 140w since then, 5 of them got this >> update in late January and have been limiting to 140w since then, the other >> two are at a previous firmware version and are performing as we would >> expect up to 199w. Have any of you noticed this same thing? Do you know >> what this is about? It doesn't feel very fair on the user end of things. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Rebecca Lundberg >> Powerfully Gree >> >> ? n? >> >> Minnesota >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> >> Louis Woofenden >> Engineering Director >> Net Zero Solar, LLC >> 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 >> Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 >> >> Phone: 520.207.4053 Ex. 2 >> >> Cell: 520.237.5040 >> Fax: 520.203.7230 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? >> NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer? >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160204/030202bc/attachment.htm >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: not available >> Type: image/png >> Size: 152751 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160204/030202bc/attachment.png >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 9, Issue 51 >> ****************************************** >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Cordially, Nick Soleil *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 707-321-2937 *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” - William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From habitek83 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 8 13:45:02 2016 From: habitek83 at yahoo.com (Tom DeBates) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 18:45:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery charging station References: <948318648.1041965.1454957102184.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <948318648.1041965.1454957102184.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Wrenches,   If anyone has experience with PV-powered battery charging stations (village power) and would care to share their experiences, please contact me off list.Thank you, Tom Tom DeBates Habi-Tek Geneva,IL. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 9 14:22:57 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:22:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering Message-ID: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; I just received an interesting call from an owner of a late 1990s vintage GTB system here in Colorado. (Trace SW4048 I'm guessing) The tenants had disconnected the grid for almost 2 years and lived in the house off grid. They had also done many scary wiring "upgrades" using speaker wire out of the main AC load center. The tenants are gone, the AC load center was cleaned up, and the owner wants to reconnect the GT system, but the utility is not allowing it since they were disconnected for 2 years. I'm still trying to find out what the requirements are, but I wanted to ping the list and see what experience anyone had, and what requirements might be placed in this situation. It seems to me that this system should be grand fathered in and not be required to meet more than 1999 NEC, but I've never dealt with this scenario before. Requiring this to meet 2014 NEC would be insane, and even meeting 2008 NEC would be a deal killer, as the old SW inverters were not UL 1741 compliant. (wasn't even around in 1998 I believe) My plan was to inspect the entire system, retorque connections, perform any necessary repairs, and just confirm compliance with NEC 1999. There would be little point, if the utility or AHJ required compliance with a newer code though. Thanks as always for any assistance, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From reellison at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 14:53:23 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 14:53:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering In-Reply-To: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> References: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> Message-ID: I'm far from an expert on this but it seems that I remember when the hubbub was going on about this series inverter that the present operating ones could continue most of them had that have the add on box I would be very surprised if after it has been disconnected from the grid and shut down for two years if they would let it reconnect I think they would treat it like a new install But that's just my opinion, Bob > On Feb 9, 2016, at 2:22 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > I just received an interesting call from an owner of a late 1990s vintage GTB system here in Colorado. (Trace SW4048 I'm guessing) The tenants had disconnected the grid for almost 2 years and lived in the house off grid. They had also done many scary wiring "upgrades" using speaker wire out of the main AC load center. > The tenants are gone, the AC load center was cleaned up, and the owner wants to reconnect the GT system, but the utility is not allowing it since they were disconnected for 2 years. I'm still trying to find out what the requirements are, but I wanted to ping the list and see what experience anyone had, and what requirements might be placed in this situation. > It seems to me that this system should be grand fathered in and not be required to meet more than 1999 NEC, but I've never dealt with this scenario before. Requiring this to meet 2014 NEC would be insane, and even meeting 2008 NEC would be a deal killer, as the old SW inverters were not UL 1741 compliant. (wasn't even around in 1998 I believe) > My plan was to inspect the entire system, retorque connections, perform any necessary repairs, and just confirm compliance with NEC 1999. There would be little point, if the utility or AHJ required compliance with a newer code though. > > Thanks as always for any assistance, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Feb 9 15:05:41 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 20:05:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering In-Reply-To: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> References: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> Message-ID: I would put it in Float mode and let it offset the grid. I don't think it would actually sell unless you select that from the grid use menu. If it's the SW, that is. Study the owners manual Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > I just received an interesting call from an owner of a late 1990s vintage GTB system here in Colorado. (Trace SW4048 I'm guessing) The tenants had disconnected the grid for almost 2 years and lived in the house off grid. They had also done many scary wiring "upgrades" using speaker wire out of the main AC load center. > The tenants are gone, the AC load center was cleaned up, and the owner wants to reconnect the GT system, but the utility is not allowing it since they were disconnected for 2 years. I'm still trying to find out what the requirements are, but I wanted to ping the list and see what experience anyone had, and what requirements might be placed in this situation. > It seems to me that this system should be grand fathered in and not be required to meet more than 1999 NEC, but I've never dealt with this scenario before. Requiring this to meet 2014 NEC would be insane, and even meeting 2008 NEC would be a deal killer, as the old SW inverters were not UL 1741 compliant. (wasn't even around in 1998 I believe) > My plan was to inspect the entire system, retorque connections, perform any necessary repairs, and just confirm compliance with NEC 1999. There would be little point, if the utility or AHJ required compliance with a newer code though. > > Thanks as always for any assistance, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 9 16:34:22 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 14:34:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering In-Reply-To: References: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56BA5B5E.9080505@solarray.com> Yea, I told her the old SWs were really inefficient at sell back, and she should just forget about net metering. However, apparently it is has an almost 10 kW array, and they used to get surplus checks back from the utility. This might be another reason why the utility doesn't want to reconnect it. I'm going to look at it Thursday. I'm quite comfortable dealing with the old SW inverters, I still have plenty of my old systems cranking away, but this reconnection issue of a legacy system is a new one on me. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/9/2016 1:05 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > I would put it in Float mode and let it offset the grid. > I don't think it would actually sell unless you select that from the grid use menu. > If it's the SW, that is. > Study the owners manual > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > >> On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >> >> I just received an interesting call from an owner of a late 1990s vintage GTB system here in Colorado. (Trace SW4048 I'm guessing) The tenants had disconnected the grid for almost 2 years and lived in the house off grid. They had also done many scary wiring "upgrades" using speaker wire out of the main AC load center. >> The tenants are gone, the AC load center was cleaned up, and the owner wants to reconnect the GT system, but the utility is not allowing it since they were disconnected for 2 years. I'm still trying to find out what the requirements are, but I wanted to ping the list and see what experience anyone had, and what requirements might be placed in this situation. >> It seems to me that this system should be grand fathered in and not be required to meet more than 1999 NEC, but I've never dealt with this scenario before. Requiring this to meet 2014 NEC would be insane, and even meeting 2008 NEC would be a deal killer, as the old SW inverters were not UL 1741 compliant. (wasn't even around in 1998 I believe) >> My plan was to inspect the entire system, retorque connections, perform any necessary repairs, and just confirm compliance with NEC 1999. There would be little point, if the utility or AHJ required compliance with a newer code though. >> >> Thanks as always for any assistance, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 16:35:10 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:35:10 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering In-Reply-To: References: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> Message-ID: Get an application for just a meter connect and go from there, the utility can say no so get it off the application. I dont see any grandfather way as it was disconnected and everything dies then. Sorry Jerry On Feb 9, 2016 10:05 AM, "Jeremy Rodriguez" wrote: > I would put it in Float mode and let it offset the grid. > I don't think it would actually sell unless you select that from the grid > use menu. > If it's the SW, that is. > Study the owners manual > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > > On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > > > I just received an interesting call from an owner of a late 1990s > vintage GTB system here in Colorado. (Trace SW4048 I'm guessing) The > tenants had disconnected the grid for almost 2 years and lived in the house > off grid. They had also done many scary wiring "upgrades" using speaker > wire out of the main AC load center. > > The tenants are gone, the AC load center was cleaned up, and the owner > wants to reconnect the GT system, but the utility is not allowing it since > they were disconnected for 2 years. I'm still trying to find out what the > requirements are, but I wanted to ping the list and see what experience > anyone had, and what requirements might be placed in this situation. > > It seems to me that this system should be grand fathered in and not be > required to meet more than 1999 NEC, but I've never dealt with this > scenario before. Requiring this to meet 2014 NEC would be insane, and even > meeting 2008 NEC would be a deal killer, as the old SW inverters were not > UL 1741 compliant. (wasn't even around in 1998 I believe) > > My plan was to inspect the entire system, retorque connections, perform > any necessary repairs, and just confirm compliance with NEC 1999. There > would be little point, if the utility or AHJ required compliance with a > newer code though. > > > > Thanks as always for any assistance, > > > > -- > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 9 16:45:40 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 14:45:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering In-Reply-To: References: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56BA5E04.5090105@solarray.com> She already got a regular meter installed, she's just wanting to get the Net meter now. That's sounding like bad news if it isn't grand fathered in. My thinking is that it would be just like for an old house: it would need to be safe but only be required to meet the requirements of the code of the original construction. This is a really good case for NOT going completely off grid if you already have grid power. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/9/2016 2:35 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Get an application for just a meter connect and go from there, the > utility can say no so get it off the application. I dont see any > grandfather way as it was disconnected and everything dies then. > Sorry > Jerry > > On Feb 9, 2016 10:05 AM, "Jeremy Rodriguez" > wrote: > > I would put it in Float mode and let it offset the grid. > I don't think it would actually sell unless you select that from > the grid use menu. > If it's the SW, that is. > Study the owners manual > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > > On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > > > I just received an interesting call from an owner of a late > 1990s vintage GTB system here in Colorado. (Trace SW4048 I'm > guessing) The tenants had disconnected the grid for almost 2 years > and lived in the house off grid. They had also done many scary > wiring "upgrades" using speaker wire out of the main AC load center. > > The tenants are gone, the AC load center was cleaned up, and the > owner wants to reconnect the GT system, but the utility is not > allowing it since they were disconnected for 2 years. I'm still > trying to find out what the requirements are, but I wanted to ping > the list and see what experience anyone had, and what requirements > might be placed in this situation. > > It seems to me that this system should be grand fathered in and > not be required to meet more than 1999 NEC, but I've never dealt > with this scenario before. Requiring this to meet 2014 NEC would > be insane, and even meeting 2008 NEC would be a deal killer, as > the old SW inverters were not UL 1741 compliant. (wasn't even > around in 1998 I believe) > > My plan was to inspect the entire system, retorque connections, > perform any necessary repairs, and just confirm compliance with > NEC 1999. There would be little point, if the utility or AHJ > required compliance with a newer code though. > > > > Thanks as always for any assistance, > > > > -- > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Feb 10 09:48:06 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 09:48:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering In-Reply-To: <56BA5B5E.9080505@solarray.com> References: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> <56BA5B5E.9080505@solarray.com> Message-ID: <01AD6DDC-8048-4696-97FD-FDC1E0C6C770@swnl.net> There was a GTI box that essentially plugged into the "newer" SWs not sure whether that might satisfy your utility, if you could find one. Talk about inefficient..... ramp up, ramp down, ramp up, ramp down, adjusting the output current to the grid. On Feb 9, 2016, at 4:34 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Yea, I told her the old SWs were really inefficient at sell back, and she should just forget about net metering. However, apparently it is has an almost 10 kW array, and they used to get surplus checks back from the utility. This might be another reason why the utility doesn't want to reconnect it. I'm going to look at it Thursday. I'm quite comfortable dealing with the old SW inverters, I still have plenty of my old systems cranking away, but this reconnection issue of a legacy system is a new one on me. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/9/2016 1:05 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> I would put it in Float mode and let it offset the grid. >> I don't think it would actually sell unless you select that from the grid use menu. >> If it's the SW, that is. >> Study the owners manual >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> >>> On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>> >>> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >>> >>> I just received an interesting call from an owner of a late 1990s vintage GTB system here in Colorado. (Trace SW4048 I'm guessing) The tenants had disconnected the grid for almost 2 years and lived in the house off grid. They had also done many scary wiring "upgrades" using speaker wire out of the main AC load center. >>> The tenants are gone, the AC load center was cleaned up, and the owner wants to reconnect the GT system, but the utility is not allowing it since they were disconnected for 2 years. I'm still trying to find out what the requirements are, but I wanted to ping the list and see what experience anyone had, and what requirements might be placed in this situation. >>> It seems to me that this system should be grand fathered in and not be required to meet more than 1999 NEC, but I've never dealt with this scenario before. Requiring this to meet 2014 NEC would be insane, and even meeting 2008 NEC would be a deal killer, as the old SW inverters were not UL 1741 compliant. (wasn't even around in 1998 I believe) >>> My plan was to inspect the entire system, retorque connections, perform any necessary repairs, and just confirm compliance with NEC 1999. There would be little point, if the utility or AHJ required compliance with a newer code though. >>> >>> Thanks as always for any assistance, >>> >>> -- >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Feb 10 10:40:26 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 08:40:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering In-Reply-To: <56BA5B5E.9080505@solarray.com> References: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> <56BA5B5E.9080505@solarray.com> Message-ID: <001601d16419$5d79d300$186d7900$@com> Ray we are looking at pulling a grandfathered grid tied Dual SW4024 system and when we talked to the utility they were offering additional funds to at least put in the GTI box which was not available when this system did tie in many years back. They were very happy to hear that this system is probably going to get disconnected. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2016 2:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering Yea, I told her the old SWs were really inefficient at sell back, and she should just forget about net metering. However, apparently it is has an almost 10 kW array, and they used to get surplus checks back from the utility. This might be another reason why the utility doesn't want to reconnect it. I'm going to look at it Thursday. I'm quite comfortable dealing with the old SW inverters, I still have plenty of my old systems cranking away, but this reconnection issue of a legacy system is a new one on me. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/9/2016 1:05 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > I would put it in Float mode and let it offset the grid. > I don't think it would actually sell unless you select that from the grid use menu. > If it's the SW, that is. > Study the owners manual > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > >> On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >> >> I just received an interesting call from an owner of a late 1990s vintage GTB system here in Colorado. (Trace SW4048 I'm guessing) The tenants had disconnected the grid for almost 2 years and lived in the house off grid. They had also done many scary wiring "upgrades" using speaker wire out of the main AC load center. >> The tenants are gone, the AC load center was cleaned up, and the owner wants to reconnect the GT system, but the utility is not allowing it since they were disconnected for 2 years. I'm still trying to find out what the requirements are, but I wanted to ping the list and see what experience anyone had, and what requirements might be placed in this situation. >> It seems to me that this system should be grand fathered in and not >> be required to meet more than 1999 NEC, but I've never dealt with this scenario before. Requiring this to meet 2014 NEC would be insane, and even meeting 2008 NEC would be a deal killer, as the old SW inverters were not UL 1741 compliant. (wasn't even around in 1998 I believe) My plan was to inspect the entire system, retorque connections, perform any necessary repairs, and just confirm compliance with NEC 1999. There would be little point, if the utility or AHJ required compliance with a newer code though. >> >> Thanks as always for any assistance, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From tump at swnl.net Wed Feb 10 18:52:04 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 18:52:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Net Metering In-Reply-To: <56BA5B5E.9080505@solarray.com> References: <56BA3C91.2000004@solarray.com> <56BA5B5E.9080505@solarray.com> Message-ID: <10DE662D-ACD7-48AB-9F47-E7FEFB5A81FF@swnl.net> There was a GTI box that essentially plugged into the "newer" SWs not sure whether that might satisfy your utility, if you could find one. Talk about inefficient..... ramp up, ramp down, ramp up, ramp down, adjusting the output current to the grid. On Feb 9, 2016, at 4:34 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Yea, I told her the old SWs were really inefficient at sell back, and she should just forget about net metering. However, apparently it is has an almost 10 kW array, and they used to get surplus checks back from the utility. This might be another reason why the utility doesn't want to reconnect it. I'm going to look at it Thursday. I'm quite comfortable dealing with the old SW inverters, I still have plenty of my old systems cranking away, but this reconnection issue of a legacy system is a new one on me. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/9/2016 1:05 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> I would put it in Float mode and let it offset the grid. >> I don't think it would actually sell unless you select that from the grid use menu. >> If it's the SW, that is. >> Study the owners manual >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> >>> On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>> >>> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >>> >>> I just received an interesting call from an owner of a late 1990s vintage GTB system here in Colorado. (Trace SW4048 I'm guessing) The tenants had disconnected the grid for almost 2 years and lived in the house off grid. They had also done many scary wiring "upgrades" using speaker wire out of the main AC load center. >>> The tenants are gone, the AC load center was cleaned up, and the owner wants to reconnect the GT system, but the utility is not allowing it since they were disconnected for 2 years. I'm still trying to find out what the requirements are, but I wanted to ping the list and see what experience anyone had, and what requirements might be placed in this situation. >>> It seems to me that this system should be grand fathered in and not be required to meet more than 1999 NEC, but I've never dealt with this scenario before. Requiring this to meet 2014 NEC would be insane, and even meeting 2008 NEC would be a deal killer, as the old SW inverters were not UL 1741 compliant. (wasn't even around in 1998 I believe) >>> My plan was to inspect the entire system, retorque connections, perform any necessary repairs, and just confirm compliance with NEC 1999. There would be little point, if the utility or AHJ required compliance with a newer code though. >>> >>> Thanks as always for any assistance, >>> >>> -- >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Mon Feb 15 16:18:34 2016 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 13:18:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off topic items Message-ID: <310612.71959.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi there. Just my occasional reminder to not post off topic items. If you have any questions, please contact me off list. 1. Don't post jokes, thanks, apologies, news items, chit-chat, events, politics, marketing, virus info, or anything else that is off-topic. 2. Don't respond on-list to others' off topic posts. 3. Don't post items that are available for sale, either from you or from others. 3a. From time to time people post items that they need but are having problems locating (like an older model PV module to replace a broken one), but these requests should be responded to off-list. And these requests should state within them, something like "if you have one, please contact me off list." 4. If you have a message that is intended for individuals who are on the list, like "thanks" or "yes, I have one of those things you are looking for," don't send it to the whole list -- just send it to the individuals. 5. Do not post administrative inquiries, but rather send them to me off-list. 6. And finally, a reminder to never post job leads of any kind on the list. Thank-you. [The RE-Wrenches listserver and other associated lists are managed by Michael Welch, through Redwood Alliance, a nonprofit energy-related environmental organization.] From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 17:51:03 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 16:51:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MIGB's Message-ID: Wrenchers, What are you all using as strain reliefs on the ends of conduit runs that run between arrays on roof mounts? We have arrays on two roof sections with a piece of rigid conduit connecting the two, and galvanized MIGB's (ground bushings maybe some people call them?) on each end of the pipe. It was just cited on an inspection that this was improper use of equipment because the galv MIGB's are not rated for outdoor use? Anyone have anything to back up the use of this method or have a preferred method for strain relief and bonding for this application? Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Feb 16 18:24:38 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 18:24:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MIGB's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d16911$35ba0900$a12e1b00$@burt@glbcc.com> The lay-in lugs are not listed for use outdoors and will weld up with rust in little time. Best bet is to replace the lug only with one of the several available that are listed for direct burial and have been used to bond modules in years past. It is a compromise as the bushing itself is not listed for use outdoors either, but I think it is the lay-in lug that is the big problem. I believe this has been discussed here in the past. BTW, it is not being used as a strain relief, just a conduit end protector (there is no gripping of conductors) and a conduit bonding point. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 5:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] MIGB's Wrenchers, What are you all using as strain reliefs on the ends of conduit runs that run between arrays on roof mounts? We have arrays on two roof sections with a piece of rigid conduit connecting the two, and galvanized MIGB's (ground bushings maybe some people call them?) on each end of the pipe. It was just cited on an inspection that this was improper use of equipment because the galv MIGB's are not rated for outdoor use? Anyone have anything to back up the use of this method or have a preferred method for strain relief and bonding for this application? Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 18:41:21 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 13:41:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MIGB's Message-ID: WrenchesWe have been using nema 3 metal, stainless or even pvc 4x4 boxes with plastic outdoor rated strain releafs, (same as sma has) also works on enphase, good wire splice point. Some onspectors like them under modules some like them exposed, l perfer under looks cleanerJerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Burt Date: 2/16/2016 1:24 PM (GMT-10:00) To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MIGB's The lay-in lugs are not listed for use outdoors and will weld up with rust in little time.Best bet is to replace the lug only with one of the several available that are listed for direct burial and have been used to bond modules in years past. It is a compromise as the bushing itself is not listed for use outdoors either, but I think it is the lay-in lug that is the big problem.I believe this has been discussed here in the past. BTW, it is not being used as a strain relief, just a conduit end protector (there is no gripping of conductors) and a conduit bonding point. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 5:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] MIGB's Wrenchers,What are you all using as strain reliefs on the ends of conduit runs that run between arrays on roof mounts? We have arrays on two roof sections with a piece of rigid conduit connecting the two,  and galvanized MIGB's (ground bushings maybe some people call them?) on each end of the pipe. It was just cited on an inspection that this was improper use of equipment because the galv MIGB's are not rated for outdoor use? Anyone have anything to back up the use of this method or have a preferred method for strain relief and bonding for this application? Thanks for any thoughts.Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 16 18:59:20 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:59:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MIGB's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3afa2c3c8c984c22f1b01f2217b41031@mail.gmail.com> Adam: Have you considered the Heyco or other types of gland nuts? I know these don’t bond your rigid, but you can slap on a ground clamp at an appropriate location. A gland nut will keep spiders out of your pipe. The gland nuts will also keep out (or hold in water). I hate to try and make any conduit or boxes watertight. Condensation just happens. Instead, we make sure conduits and boxes can drain. You can drill a weep hole in a low spot, leave off a gasket or if one of the Heycos is at a low spot, poke out an extra opening. Weep holes are allowed by code as long as they meet criteria. I think is a maximum of ¼” diameter. Good luck. William PS: Or put a bell box on either end of the conduit. Bond the bell box and the conduit is bonded. Screw the gland fitting into the bell box to keep critters out and protect the wire. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *AE Solar *Sent:* Tuesday, February 16, 2016 2:51 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] MIGB's Wrenchers, What are you all using as strain reliefs on the ends of conduit runs that run between arrays on roof mounts? We have arrays on two roof sections with a piece of rigid conduit connecting the two, and galvanized MIGB's (ground bushings maybe some people call them?) on each end of the pipe. It was just cited on an inspection that this was improper use of equipment because the galv MIGB's are not rated for outdoor use? Anyone have anything to back up the use of this method or have a preferred method for strain relief and bonding for this application? Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gseelhorst at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 11:23:33 2016 From: gseelhorst at gmail.com (Gregory Seelhorst) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 10:23:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps Message-ID: Wrenches - Does anyone know of a good spec for a 200 or 225A Square D Main Service Panel which has feeders between the meter and Main Disconnect and would be ideal for 150A CT clamps for monitoring whole house consumption? I'm finding most MSPs have a short, flat bus between the meter and Main Disconnect which requires the Rigowski Coil (requiring more expensive and unreliable hardware). Thank you for your help in advance. Regards, Greg Seelhorst NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 14:29:02 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 09:29:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps Message-ID: Can you get a meter main with only one breaker and then get a distribution panel and put all all loads there Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Gregory Seelhorst
Date:02/17/2016 6:23 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps
Wrenches - Does anyone know of a good spec for a 200 or 225A Square D Main Service Panel which has feeders between the meter and Main Disconnect and would be ideal for 150A CT clamps for monitoring whole house consumption? I'm finding most MSPs have a short, flat bus between the meter and Main Disconnect which requires the Rigowski Coil (requiring more expensive and unreliable hardware). Thank you for your help in advance. Regards, Greg Seelhorst NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 15:31:20 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick A. Shortell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 15:31:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> Hi Gregory If your installing a new load center Try inserting a 2" "C" condulet Ahead of the service panel I'm assuming pvc conduit from meter to panel Install solid core 200:5 ct's while you pull your cable through Route the ct leads into the panel along with the phase conductors Or if you have a meter main Most have bolted buss connections that you can open and if you stagger the ct's and support them with a few cable ties That could work But Your meter probably requires voltage sense and meter power conductors so nippling the meter to the panel might be a better solution just so you don't have to install additional oc protection in the meter main Which might be sketchy Hope I understood your question Pat Patrick A. Shortell Licensed Master Electrician Certified Solar Installer 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 Www.thesolarstorehouse.com > On Feb 17, 2016, at 2:29 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > > Can you get a meter main with only one breaker and then get a distribution panel and put all all loads there > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Gregory Seelhorst > Date:02/17/2016 6:23 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps > > Wrenches - > > Does anyone know of a good spec for a 200 or 225A Square D Main Service Panel which has feeders between the meter and Main Disconnect and would be ideal for 150A CT clamps for monitoring whole house consumption? > > I'm finding most MSPs have a short, flat bus between the meter and Main Disconnect which requires the Rigowski Coil (requiring more expensive and unreliable hardware). > > Thank you for your help in advance. > > Regards, > > Greg Seelhorst > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Feb 17 15:39:20 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 15:39:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps In-Reply-To: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> Message-ID: It is not Square D, but a Milbank U5168-XTL-200 would do the trick. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Patrick A. Shortell wrote: > Hi Gregory > If your installing a new load center > Try inserting a 2" "C" condulet > Ahead of the service panel > I'm assuming pvc conduit from meter to panel > Install solid core 200:5 ct's while you pull your cable through > Route the ct leads into the panel along with the phase conductors > Or if you have a meter main > Most have bolted buss connections that you can open and if you stagger the > ct's and support them with a few cable ties > That could work > But > Your meter probably requires voltage sense and meter power conductors so > nippling the meter to the panel might be a better solution just so you > don't have to install additional oc protection in the meter main > Which might be sketchy > Hope I understood your question > Pat > > Patrick A. Shortell > Licensed Master Electrician > Certified Solar Installer > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > Www.thesolarstorehouse.com > > > On Feb 17, 2016, at 2:29 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > > Can you get a meter main with only one breaker and then get a distribution > panel and put all all loads there > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Gregory Seelhorst > Date:02/17/2016 6:23 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One > meter for CT Clamps > > Wrenches - > > Does anyone know of a good spec for a 200 or 225A Square D Main Service > Panel which has feeders between the meter and Main Disconnect and would be > ideal for 150A CT clamps for monitoring whole house consumption? > > I'm finding most MSPs have a short, flat bus between the meter and Main > Disconnect which requires the Rigowski Coil (requiring more expensive and > unreliable hardware). > > Thank you for your help in advance. > > Regards, > > Greg Seelhorst > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gseelhorst at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 18:15:20 2016 From: gseelhorst at gmail.com (Gregory Seelhorst) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 17:15:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps In-Reply-To: References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for your contributions. The meter/main Combo is the preferred solution here. I do like the Milbank solution with longer Feeders. Has anyone used the SC816F200PS Square D all-in-one? Square D (Schneider) is advertising this as a "Homeline Solar-ready Combination Service Entrance" where it can accomodate CTs. Greg Seelhorst NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > It is not Square D, but a Milbank U5168-XTL-200 would do the trick. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Patrick A. Shortell > wrote: > >> Hi Gregory >> If your installing a new load center >> Try inserting a 2" "C" condulet >> Ahead of the service panel >> I'm assuming pvc conduit from meter to panel >> Install solid core 200:5 ct's while you pull your cable through >> Route the ct leads into the panel along with the phase conductors >> Or if you have a meter main >> Most have bolted buss connections that you can open and if you stagger >> the ct's and support them with a few cable ties >> That could work >> But >> Your meter probably requires voltage sense and meter power conductors so >> nippling the meter to the panel might be a better solution just so you >> don't have to install additional oc protection in the meter main >> Which might be sketchy >> Hope I understood your question >> Pat >> >> Patrick A. Shortell >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Certified Solar Installer >> 71 Oregon Street >> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >> Www.thesolarstorehouse.com >> >> >> On Feb 17, 2016, at 2:29 PM, jerrysgarage01 >> wrote: >> >> Can you get a meter main with only one breaker and then get a >> distribution panel and put all all loads there >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Gregory Seelhorst >> Date:02/17/2016 6:23 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One >> meter for CT Clamps >> >> Wrenches - >> >> Does anyone know of a good spec for a 200 or 225A Square D Main Service >> Panel which has feeders between the meter and Main Disconnect and would be >> ideal for 150A CT clamps for monitoring whole house consumption? >> >> I'm finding most MSPs have a short, flat bus between the meter and Main >> Disconnect which requires the Rigowski Coil (requiring more expensive and >> unreliable hardware). >> >> Thank you for your help in advance. >> >> Regards, >> >> Greg Seelhorst >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 19:40:30 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 14:40:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 5.0/6.0US In-Reply-To: References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C6C6FBE-137F-423F-AE9B-E415E471DA32@gmail.com> HI All, I was reading the manual for this new inverter and there are many references to batteries. No one I’ve asked knows anything about this aspect of the inverter. So I’m posing it here. Does anyone know about the battery aspect of this inverter? thanks jay peltz power From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Feb 17 20:02:29 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 15:02:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 5.0/6.0US In-Reply-To: <5C6C6FBE-137F-423F-AE9B-E415E471DA32@gmail.com> References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> <5C6C6FBE-137F-423F-AE9B-E415E471DA32@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012e01d169e8$0ba13b20$22e3b160$@com> Hi Jay, If you're referring to the new SMA 5 and 6 kW -40 inverters, they are not battery compatible to my knowledge. marco HI All, I was reading the manual for this new inverter and there are many references to batteries. No one I’ve asked knows anything about this aspect of the inverter. So I’m posing it here. Does anyone know about the battery aspect of this inverter? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 21:14:09 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 16:14:09 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 5.0/6.0US In-Reply-To: <012e01d169e8$0ba13b20$22e3b160$@com> References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> <5C6C6FBE-137F-423F-AE9B-E415E471DA32@gmail.com> <012e01d169e8$0ba13b20$22e3b160$@com> Message-ID: HI Marco, that might indeed be true. But there are many references to batteries, battery relay control for battery charging, pages below all reference to different battery parameters http://files.sma.de/dl/27676/SB5.0-6.0-1SP-US-40-IA-xx-10.pdf 27 36 37 39 Curious. jay > On Feb 17, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > If you're referring to the new SMA 5 and 6 kW -40 inverters, they are not battery compatible to my knowledge. > > marco > > HI All, > > I was reading the manual for this new inverter and there are many references to batteries. > No one I’ve asked knows anything about this aspect of the inverter. > > So I’m posing it here. > Does anyone know about the battery aspect of this inverter? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 07:34:30 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 05:34:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 5.0/6.0US In-Reply-To: References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> <5C6C6FBE-137F-423F-AE9B-E415E471DA32@gmail.com> <012e01d169e8$0ba13b20$22e3b160$@com> Message-ID: Wrenches, please correct me if I am off-base here; The way I am reading the SMA product info literature is that the BAT relay cnx is for the new up-and-coming 2kW SMA Lithium battery intended for grid-tie load shaving or short-period battery backup (just like the new ones from enphase, tesla, etc) somehow in combination with the SMA daytime Secure Power Supply, and that the BAT cnx can also be used for true off-grid operation with a Sunny Island inverter added in the basement next to the battery bank. This all reminds me of the never-ending TV ads for ED meds..."Ask your PV professional if your system is healthy enough for battery backup. If you experience a grid outage lasting longer than 4 hours, contact your PV professional immediately." Except the doctors get their CEUs for free to learn how to diagnose and prescribe those meds, we have to pay all travel, lodging and workshop expenses to learn how to responsibly sell, install and retrofit PV systems for grid tie battery backup. Questions about these retrofits are taking up an ever increasing portion of my allotted "free consulting" time for potential customers. I wish somebody offered a NABCEP accredited master class about it with all the gory details. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 7:14 PM, jay wrote: > HI Marco, > > that might indeed be true. > > But there are many references to batteries, battery relay control for > battery charging, > > pages below all reference to different battery parameters > http://files.sma.de/dl/27676/SB5.0-6.0-1SP-US-40-IA-xx-10.pdf > 27 > 36 > 37 > 39 > > Curious. > > jay > > > > On Feb 17, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > > > Hi Jay, > > > > If you're referring to the new SMA 5 and 6 kW -40 inverters, they are > not battery compatible to my knowledge. > > > > marco > > > > HI All, > > > > I was reading the manual for this new inverter and there are many > references to batteries. > > No one I’ve asked knows anything about this aspect of the inverter. > > > > So I’m posing it here. > > Does anyone know about the battery aspect of this inverter? > > > > thanks > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Thu Feb 18 08:20:26 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 07:20:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 5.0/6.0US In-Reply-To: References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> <5C6C6FBE-137F-423F-AE9B-E415E471DA32@gmail.com> <012e01d169e8$0ba13b20$22e3b160$@com> Message-ID: <56C5C51A.20207@charter.net> Fellow Wrenches, Would it not be reasonable for the _manufacturer_ of those products to offer this info ( so that, at least ideally, those products would be sized, installed, and serviced properly) and I might add without the added filter and expense of some third party operative. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 2/18/2016 6:34 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > I wish somebody offered a NABCEP accredited master class about it with > all the gory details. > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 12:50:15 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 07:50:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 5.0/6.0US In-Reply-To: References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> <5C6C6FBE-137F-423F-AE9B-E415E471DA32@gmail.com> <012e01d169e8$0ba13b20$22e3b160$@com> Message-ID: <6C8D8F73-49ED-4264-B5B8-4AA299AECAB8@gmail.com> HI Dan, Do you have any links on info on the battery? A quick search didn’t find anything. Yea I know given SMA time, I’ll be long retired when it comes out but still. jay peltz power > On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:34 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Wrenches, please correct me if I am off-base here; > > The way I am reading the SMA product info literature is that the BAT relay cnx is for the new up-and-coming 2kW SMA Lithium battery intended for grid-tie load shaving or short-period battery backup (just like the new ones from enphase, tesla, etc) somehow in combination with the SMA daytime Secure Power Supply, and that the BAT cnx can also be used for true off-grid operation with a Sunny Island inverter added in the basement next to the battery bank. > > This all reminds me of the never-ending TV ads for ED meds..."Ask your PV professional if your system is healthy enough for battery backup. If you experience a grid outage lasting longer than 4 hours, contact your PV professional immediately." Except the doctors get their CEUs for free to learn how to diagnose and prescribe those meds, we have to pay all travel, lodging and workshop expenses to learn how to responsibly sell, install and retrofit PV systems for grid tie battery backup. > > Questions about these retrofits are taking up an ever increasing portion of my allotted "free consulting" time for potential customers. I wish somebody offered a NABCEP accredited master class about it with all the gory details. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 7:14 PM, jay > wrote: > HI Marco, > > that might indeed be true. > > But there are many references to batteries, battery relay control for battery charging, > > pages below all reference to different battery parameters > http://files.sma.de/dl/27676/SB5.0-6.0-1SP-US-40-IA-xx-10.pdf > 27 > 36 > 37 > 39 > > Curious. > > jay > > > > On Feb 17, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > > > Hi Jay, > > > > If you're referring to the new SMA 5 and 6 kW -40 inverters, they are not battery compatible to my knowledge. > > > > marco > > > > HI All, > > > > I was reading the manual for this new inverter and there are many references to batteries. > > No one I’ve asked knows anything about this aspect of the inverter. > > > > So I’m posing it here. > > Does anyone know about the battery aspect of this inverter? > > > > thanks > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Thu Feb 18 13:36:33 2016 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 10:36:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps In-Reply-To: References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Eaton "Solar Power Center" panels are combined meter/main service panels that can accommodate consumption CTs, if you know the trick. What you need to know about those panels is that the main breaker internally rotates the line conductors, so that line 1 is on the right on the top of the breaker, but line 2 is on the right on the bottom of the breaker. This panel doesn't appear to accommodate consumption monitoring CTs, but if you install one CT above and one CT below the main breaker it will work. On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Gregory Seelhorst wrote: > Thank you for your contributions. The meter/main Combo is the preferred > solution here. I do like the Milbank solution with longer Feeders. > > Has anyone used the SC816F200PS Square D all-in-one? > Square D (Schneider) is advertising this as a "Homeline Solar-ready > Combination Service Entrance" where it can accomodate CTs. > > Greg Seelhorst > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 > > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> It is not Square D, but a Milbank U5168-XTL-200 would do the trick. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> *--* >> >> >> *Dave Tedeyan* >> *Project Engineer* >> >> *Taitem Engineering, PC* >> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> www.taitem.com >> >> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Patrick A. Shortell < >> pshortell6 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Gregory >>> If your installing a new load center >>> Try inserting a 2" "C" condulet >>> Ahead of the service panel >>> I'm assuming pvc conduit from meter to panel >>> Install solid core 200:5 ct's while you pull your cable through >>> Route the ct leads into the panel along with the phase conductors >>> Or if you have a meter main >>> Most have bolted buss connections that you can open and if you stagger >>> the ct's and support them with a few cable ties >>> That could work >>> But >>> Your meter probably requires voltage sense and meter power conductors so >>> nippling the meter to the panel might be a better solution just so you >>> don't have to install additional oc protection in the meter main >>> Which might be sketchy >>> Hope I understood your question >>> Pat >>> >>> Patrick A. Shortell >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Certified Solar Installer >>> 71 Oregon Street >>> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >>> Www.thesolarstorehouse.com >>> >>> >>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 2:29 PM, jerrysgarage01 >>> wrote: >>> >>> Can you get a meter main with only one breaker and then get a >>> distribution panel and put all all loads there >>> >>> >>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Gregory Seelhorst >>> Date:02/17/2016 6:23 AM (GMT-10:00) >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One >>> meter for CT Clamps >>> >>> Wrenches - >>> >>> Does anyone know of a good spec for a 200 or 225A Square D Main Service >>> Panel which has feeders between the meter and Main Disconnect and would be >>> ideal for 150A CT clamps for monitoring whole house consumption? >>> >>> I'm finding most MSPs have a short, flat bus between the meter and Main >>> Disconnect which requires the Rigowski Coil (requiring more expensive and >>> unreliable hardware). >>> >>> Thank you for your help in advance. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Greg Seelhorst >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Cordially, Nick Soleil *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 707-321-2937 *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” - William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Feb 18 18:06:46 2016 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 15:06:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <005f01d15aa1$a430a160$ec91e420$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <822989.11262.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 72062 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Feb 18 18:30:33 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 18:30:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps In-Reply-To: References: <25083711-55E5-4FD9-8FD1-B441CB238CD1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just installed this SqD HL Combination Service entrance/ meter combo Part # RC816D200CH. Gregory, I sent you photos (ck yer junk box) anyone else interested in photos please contact me off list. TUMP On Feb 17, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Gregory Seelhorst wrote: > Thank you for your contributions. The meter/main Combo is the preferred solution here. I do like the Milbank solution with longer Feeders. > > Has anyone used the SC816F200PS Square D all-in-one? > Square D (Schneider) is advertising this as a "Homeline Solar-ready Combination Service Entrance" where it can accomodate CTs. > > Greg Seelhorst > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 > > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > It is not Square D, but a Milbank U5168-XTL-200 would do the trick. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan > Project Engineer > > Taitem Engineering, PC > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Patrick A. Shortell wrote: > Hi Gregory > If your installing a new load center > Try inserting a 2" "C" condulet > Ahead of the service panel > I'm assuming pvc conduit from meter to panel > Install solid core 200:5 ct's while you pull your cable through > Route the ct leads into the panel along with the phase conductors > Or if you have a meter main > Most have bolted buss connections that you can open and if you stagger the ct's and support them with a few cable ties > That could work > But > Your meter probably requires voltage sense and meter power conductors so nippling the meter to the panel might be a better solution just so you don't have to install additional oc protection in the meter main > Which might be sketchy > Hope I understood your question > Pat > > Patrick A. Shortell > Licensed Master Electrician > Certified Solar Installer > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > Www.thesolarstorehouse.com > > > On Feb 17, 2016, at 2:29 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > >> Can you get a meter main with only one breaker and then get a distribution panel and put all all loads there >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Gregory Seelhorst >> Date:02/17/2016 6:23 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optimal 200 or 225 Amp Square D MSP All-in-One meter for CT Clamps >> >> Wrenches - >> >> Does anyone know of a good spec for a 200 or 225A Square D Main Service Panel which has feeders between the meter and Main Disconnect and would be ideal for 150A CT clamps for monitoring whole house consumption? >> >> I'm finding most MSPs have a short, flat bus between the meter and Main Disconnect which requires the Rigowski Coil (requiring more expensive and unreliable hardware). >> >> Thank you for your help in advance. >> >> Regards, >> >> Greg Seelhorst >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #092907-16 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Feb 19 14:03:43 2016 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 12:03:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 Sanyo modules needed In-Reply-To: <310612.71959.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09A7DC0A75034035AFE24F3612F6F6DE@OasisChris> Dear people: If you have any of these available for sale, please contact me off-list: (modules in order of preference) HIP-190BA3 HIP-195BA3 HIP 200BA3 HIP-205BA3 HIP 190BA19 HIP 195BA19 HIP 200BA19 HIP 205BA19 Thanks and have a great weekend, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Feb 20 13:37:57 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 13:37:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Desired Posting Message-ID: <20160220183846.492873DC07D@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, Are any upgrades needed on a distribution grid for interconnection, other than bigger services for large arrays where existing equipment is inadequate? Does the existing grid function fine as is, until a saturation point is reached, which I have heard is around 25%? After saturation is reached, what is needed to balance consumption with generation? (How is this handled in Germany?) Is 25% an accurate number for the saturation limit? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wind.trainer at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 19:30:23 2016 From: wind.trainer at gmail.com (Ross Taylor) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 17:30:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound engineer for testing in NY? Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, We are in need of a reputable firm or individual to do some field measurements of wind turbine sound emissions at a site in New York, near Albany. They need not live in NY, as long as they're close enough to reasonably travel there. I checked with the NYSERDA program manager, but he wasn't aware of any. So, I'm hoping this august group might have had some experience with someone they could recommend. Please send me any suggestions at rtaylor at xzeres.com Thanks all, Ross Taylor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Mon Feb 22 14:30:02 2016 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:30:02 -0900 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW 325 modules - experience? Message-ID: <56CB61BA.9000502@remotepowerinc.com> Esteemed Wrenches, Looking at installing an 8 kW system with Solarworld SW325 monos. Made in Thailand. I like Solarworld but no experience with their off shore manufacturing or with anything this large. Main concern is quality and ruggedness of the frame. Grateful for any feedback from someone who's installed them. Pros/cons. Would be using 10kW SolarEdge inverter and the 400 Watt maximizers. Thanks! Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 23 09:05:19 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:05:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] List of Thin-Film Manufacturers Message-ID: I am trying to compile a list of thin-film peel-and-stick products that are currently on the market and readily available. Any opinions would also be appreciated. Please respond off-list and I will send out the compiled list in about a week. ​Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Desing Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Tue Feb 23 09:47:55 2016 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:47:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW 325 modules - experience? In-Reply-To: <56CB61BA.9000502@remotepowerinc.com> References: <56CB61BA.9000502@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <001e01d16e49$2eab9600$8c02c200$@com> I can’t vouch specifically for the Thai modules, but we also like SW a lot. They used to have more flimsy frames (30mm only I think, which did not allow them to be used for some racking) The new line has thicker 33mm box frames that allow them to go most places, using most racking systems with our lower snow loads (relative to AK at least). I’d say though, all things being equal, in Alaska I’d be reluctant to use a 72cell module due to the extreme snow loads, or if I did, I imagine I’d use a 3-rail mounting system. Usually the 72cell modules have a slightly lower load rating due to their larger size using the same frame thickness. Solarworld lists the allowable loads (-loads for wind, + loads for snow plus wind) using several different mounting arrangements, I’d at least check that out using your knowledge of local snow loads. There are stronger framed 72cell modules out there that’s for sure (Suniva, Trina, Canadian Solar, I’m sure there are more). Just curious, 8kW of PV, and a 10kW inverter? Are you planning on future expansion? If not, we usually would use a SE7600US on that size and then the client has the option to add batteries in the future, as the SE7600 is the only inverter they currently plan to make compatible with the Tesla Power Wall, and other similar battery systems. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Greg Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 2:30 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW 325 modules - experience? Esteemed Wrenches, Looking at installing an 8 kW system with Solarworld SW325 monos. Made in Thailand. I like Solarworld but no experience with their off shore manufacturing or with anything this large. Main concern is quality and ruggedness of the frame. Grateful for any feedback from someone who's installed them. Pros/cons. Would be using 10kW SolarEdge inverter and the 400 Watt maximizers. Thanks! Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6189 / Virus Database: 4533/11679 - Release Date: 02/22/16 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philforest at me.com Tue Feb 23 16:29:30 2016 From: philforest at me.com (Phil Forest) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:29:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" Message-ID: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> Wrenches, It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules up a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other methods. It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) 96 cell panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the Kilty external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when hauling. Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. -------------- next part -------------- Phil Forest South Mountain Company iPhone Phil Forest From philforest at me.com Tue Feb 23 16:35:58 2016 From: philforest at me.com (Phil Forest) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:35:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" In-Reply-To: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> References: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> Message-ID: <48BCAC5A-62DF-477F-A541-869BF0A1BE22@me.com> Photos: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 104671 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Phil Forest > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:29 PM, Phil Forest wrote: > > Wrenches, > It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules up a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other methods. It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) 96 cell panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the Kilty external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. > I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when hauling. > Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. > > > Phil Forest > South Mountain Company > iPhone > > Phil Forest > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From philforest at me.com Tue Feb 23 16:38:15 2016 From: philforest at me.com (Phil Forest) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:38:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" In-Reply-To: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> References: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> Message-ID: Photos: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 173814 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 173356 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Phil Forest > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:29 PM, Phil Forest wrote: > > Wrenches, > It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules up a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other methods. It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) 96 cell panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the Kilty external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. > I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when hauling. > Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. > > > Phil Forest > South Mountain Company > iPhone > > Phil Forest > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Feb 23 16:47:43 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 14:47:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" In-Reply-To: References: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> Message-ID: So you just sit the frame of the module onto the black bar at the top of the SP100? It gravity alone holding the module in place? Is mounting it onto the SP100 a one man job or do you need someone to put it on there for you? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Phil Forest wrote: > Photos: > > > > > > Phil Forest > > > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:29 PM, Phil Forest wrote: > > > > Wrenches, > > It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry > modules up a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our > other methods. It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried > (16) 96 cell panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of > the Kilty external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in > landscape. > > I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual > ways we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when > hauling. > > Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. > > > > > > Phil Forest > > South Mountain Company > > iPhone > > > > Phil Forest > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 23 16:51:29 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:51:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" In-Reply-To: References: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> Message-ID: <16cec85e89c7ab4263a64a513e228c0e@mail.gmail.com> Phil: Do wind gusts concern you? What's your plan to eliminate any possibility of being blown off the ladder, or roof? William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Phil Forest Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 1:38 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" Photos: From philforest at me.com Tue Feb 23 16:56:17 2016 From: philforest at me.com (Phil Forest) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:56:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" In-Reply-To: References: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> Message-ID: <7F864B78-1DB0-4713-8FC5-E323CEE90BF7@me.com> Answers are in your text , below: Phil Forest > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:47 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > So you just sit the frame of the module onto the black bar at the top of the SP100? Yes. > > It gravity alone holding the module in place? Yes. It hooks into the module frame. 42lb module seems like plenty of weight to keep in place. > > Is mounting it onto the SP100 a one man job or do you need someone to put it on there for you? One man. We placed the module on a 2 ft high bench, leaning against a wall, guy with the pack on, backs up to the module and hooks it onto the pack, then climbs ladder. > > Benn Kilburn > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > >> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Phil Forest wrote: >> Photos: >> >> >> >> >> >> Phil Forest >> >> > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:29 PM, Phil Forest wrote: >> > >> > Wrenches, >> > It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules up a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other methods. It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) 96 cell panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the Kilty external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. >> > I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when hauling. >> > Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. >> > >> > >> > Phil Forest >> > South Mountain Company >> > iPhone >> > >> > Phil Forest >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Feb 23 16:56:52 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:56:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" In-Reply-To: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> References: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> Message-ID: <00b701d16e85$1ad9c480$508d4d80$@solarandwindfx.com> Nicely done. A little more detail on the black bar of which the module mounts to. So more photos (perhaps side view with & w/o module) of it and what it is made of? Christopher -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Phil Forest Sent: Tuesday, 23 February, 2016 16:30 To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" Wrenches, It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules up a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other methods. It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) 96 cell panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the Kilty external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when hauling. Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. From philforest at me.com Tue Feb 23 17:02:50 2016 From: philforest at me.com (Phil Forest) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 17:02:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" In-Reply-To: <16cec85e89c7ab4263a64a513e228c0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> <16cec85e89c7ab4263a64a513e228c0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Wind gusts always concern me when working, especially when it's module install time. We don't install modules when it feels too windy. I don't expect this new invention to make it any safer in windy conditions, so we'll continue to work around windy weather, and do something other than installing modules. Phil Forest > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:51 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Phil: > > Do wind gusts concern you? What's your plan to eliminate any possibility > of being blown off the ladder, or roof? > > William > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Phil Forest > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 1:38 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" > > Photos: > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From philforest at me.com Tue Feb 23 17:21:14 2016 From: philforest at me.com (Phil Forest) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 17:21:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" In-Reply-To: <00b701d16e85$1ad9c480$508d4d80$@solarandwindfx.com> References: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> <00b701d16e85$1ad9c480$508d4d80$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <6C202245-956B-4438-8B87-0AB568B48F94@me.com> The black bar on the top of the SP100 is an 18" long piece of 3/4" schedule 40 pvc pipe, wrapped with Ziptape for friction, so the module doesn't slide. There are 1/8" slots, that were cut with a table saw, into the ends of the pic pipe. The two 45 degree angle brackets fit into the slots. See attached photos. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image4.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 116492 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image5.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 90483 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Phil Forest > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:56 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Nicely done. A little more detail on the black bar of which the module > mounts to. So more photos (perhaps side view with & w/o module) of it and > what it is made of? > > Christopher > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Phil Forest > Sent: Tuesday, 23 February, 2016 16:30 > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" > > Wrenches, > It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules up > a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other methods. > It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) 96 cell > panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the Kilty > external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. > I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways > we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when > hauling. > Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From philforest at me.com Tue Feb 23 17:27:52 2016 From: philforest at me.com (Phil Forest) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 17:27:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" In-Reply-To: <00b701d16e85$1ad9c480$508d4d80$@solarandwindfx.com> References: <80EFA030-2D68-44AB-9D31-74BC24E70669@me.com> <00b701d16e85$1ad9c480$508d4d80$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <17DBAF23-3783-4306-8645-4740E25455B1@me.com> Christopher, Another important detail is the thick squishy pipe insulation, attached to the bottom of the pack, so the bottom of the panel has something soft to lay against. Also wrapped with Ziptape. Love that stuff. Way better than ductape. See photo. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 169167 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Phil Forest > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:56 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Nicely done. A little more detail on the black bar of which the module > mounts to. So more photos (perhaps side view with & w/o module) of it and > what it is made of? > > Christopher > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Phil Forest > Sent: Tuesday, 23 February, 2016 16:30 > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100" > > Wrenches, > It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules up > a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other methods. > It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) 96 cell > panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the Kilty > external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. > I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways > we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when > hauling. > Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Feb 23 21:07:38 2016 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 17:07:38 -0900 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW 325 modules - experience? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56CD106A.8040705@remotepowerinc.com> Daniel, Thanks for the intel. According to the specs I read the SW 325 mono-thai's can't handle a lot of wind from the back of the module. I'd be installing them with a pretty steep angle to keep the snow off them most of the time so snow load not too worried about but wind may be an issue. I'd thought of the 3 rail mounting as well - that is a good idea. Also thought of putting a wind shield behind the array to lessen wind loads from the north. Was going to use a 10 kW since our modules stay pretty cool in the spring and get good reflectance off the snow. It was like 200 bucks more for the 10 kW over the 7.6 kW so figured it was worth it. Not sure of the economics of the Powerstor battery up here. We just get one rate per kWh any time of the day. Biggest loads on the utility are when it's cold and dark. Most people just keep a Honda generator around for emergencies. Maybe run it once a year. Best, Greg Egan I can?t vouch specifically for the Thai modules, but we also like SW a lot. They used to have more flimsy frames (30mm only I think, which did not allow them to be used for some racking) The new line has thicker 33mm box frames that allow them to go most places, using most racking systems with our lower snow loads (relative to AK at least). I?d say though, all things being equal, in Alaska I?d be reluctant to use a 72cell module due to the extreme snow loads, or if I did, I imagine I?d use a 3-rail mounting system. Usually the 72cell modules have a slightly lower load rating due to their larger size using the same frame thickness. Solarworld lists the allowable loads (-loads for wind, + loads for snow plus wind) using several different mounting arrangements, I?d at least check that out using your knowledge of local snow loads. There are stronger framed 72cell modules out there that?s for sure (Suniva, Trina, Canadian Solar, I?m sure there are more). Just curious, 8kW of PV, and a 10kW inverter? Are you planning on future expansion? If not, we usually would use a SE7600US on that size and then the client has the option to add batteries in the future, as the SE7600 is the only inverter they currently plan to make compatible with the Tesla Power Wall, and other similar battery systems. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com Wed Feb 24 10:50:38 2016 From: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com (Paul Lyons) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:50:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shading from Overhead Transmission Lines Message-ID: <00ce01d16f1b$1b8fe3f0$52afabd0$@ZapotecEnergy.com> Hell RE-Wrenches - Do any of you have experience with locating ground-mounted PV systems under high-voltage transmission lines? We have an electric utility client who would like to use some of its land underneath its HV transmission lines to install PV. Is the shadow cast be the overhead wires significant enough to affect the string voltages in the array? Should we go with micro-inverters? Thank you, Paul Lyons, P.E. Zapotec Energy Inc. 675 Massachusetts Ave Cambridge, MA 02139-3309 Tel: 617-547-5900 ext.201 Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 16:18:12 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 11:18:12 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shading from Overhead Transmission Lines In-Reply-To: <00ce01d16f1b$1b8fe3f0$52afabd0$@ZapotecEnergy.com> References: <00ce01d16f1b$1b8fe3f0$52afabd0$@ZapotecEnergy.com> Message-ID: We have both GT and off grid in the shadow lines, because of the distance away, diameter of the wire and also the sun have not seen any issues that will warrent micro inverters. All that said, its a moving target and if the wires are very close then it will be more of an issue. Something else to ponder can you in fact install under HV transmission lines in your area. Jerry On Feb 24, 2016 5:50 AM, "Paul Lyons" wrote: > Hell RE-Wrenches – > > > > Do any of you have experience with locating ground-mounted PV systems > under high-voltage transmission lines? We have an electric utility client > who would like to use some of its land underneath its HV transmission lines > to install PV. Is the shadow cast be the overhead wires significant enough > to affect the string voltages in the array? Should we go with > micro-inverters? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Paul Lyons, P.E. > > Zapotec Energy Inc. > > 675 Massachusetts Ave > > Cambridge, MA 02139-3309 > > Tel: 617-547-5900 ext.201 > > Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com > > Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 17:41:54 2016 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 17:41:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shading from Overhead Transmission Lines In-Reply-To: References: <00ce01d16f1b$1b8fe3f0$52afabd0$@ZapotecEnergy.com> Message-ID: I'd be more worried about induced current/voltage on metal/conductors in the PV array, which seems like it could cause issues with GFP devices, and possibly unsafe conditions. I worked on one large array (5 MW) where the point of interconnection was parallel to / under high voltage lines. Even when the PV system wasn't operating there was measurable current on the PV system conductors induced from the high voltage lines above. The utility nearly wouldn't let the system be allowed to interconnect, because we had trouble proving the anti-islanding was working as current was still flowing when the utility supply was disconnected (on the lower voltage not higher voltage lines). Rebekah On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > We have both GT and off grid in the shadow lines, because of the distance > away, diameter of the wire and also the sun have not seen any issues that > will warrent micro inverters. All that said, its a moving target and if the > wires are very close then it will be more of an issue. > Something else to ponder can you in fact install under HV transmission > lines in your area. > Jerry > On Feb 24, 2016 5:50 AM, "Paul Lyons" wrote: > >> Hell RE-Wrenches – >> >> >> >> Do any of you have experience with locating ground-mounted PV systems >> under high-voltage transmission lines? We have an electric utility client >> who would like to use some of its land underneath its HV transmission lines >> to install PV. Is the shadow cast be the overhead wires significant enough >> to affect the string voltages in the array? Should we go with >> micro-inverters? >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Paul Lyons, P.E. >> >> Zapotec Energy Inc. >> >> 675 Massachusetts Ave >> >> Cambridge, MA 02139-3309 >> >> Tel: 617-547-5900 ext.201 >> >> Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com >> >> Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 18:08:12 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 13:08:12 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shading from Overhead Transmission Lines In-Reply-To: References: <00ce01d16f1b$1b8fe3f0$52afabd0$@ZapotecEnergy.com> Message-ID: Just so l understand you had current not voltage where was the current flowing to. I have had static voltage from HV transmission lines but not induced current while the system was off. Jerry Jerry On Feb 24, 2016 12:42 PM, "Rebekah Hren" wrote: > I'd be more worried about induced current/voltage on metal/conductors in > the PV array, which seems like it could cause issues with GFP devices, and > possibly unsafe conditions. I worked on one large array (5 MW) where the > point of interconnection was parallel to / under high voltage lines. Even > when the PV system wasn't operating there was measurable current on the PV > system conductors induced from the high voltage lines above. The utility > nearly wouldn't let the system be allowed to interconnect, because we had > trouble proving the anti-islanding was working as current was still flowing > when the utility supply was disconnected (on the lower voltage not higher > voltage lines). > Rebekah > > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> We have both GT and off grid in the shadow lines, because of the distance >> away, diameter of the wire and also the sun have not seen any issues that >> will warrent micro inverters. All that said, its a moving target and if the >> wires are very close then it will be more of an issue. >> Something else to ponder can you in fact install under HV transmission >> lines in your area. >> Jerry >> On Feb 24, 2016 5:50 AM, "Paul Lyons" wrote: >> >>> Hell RE-Wrenches – >>> >>> >>> >>> Do any of you have experience with locating ground-mounted PV systems >>> under high-voltage transmission lines? We have an electric utility client >>> who would like to use some of its land underneath its HV transmission lines >>> to install PV. Is the shadow cast be the overhead wires significant enough >>> to affect the string voltages in the array? Should we go with >>> micro-inverters? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> >>> >>> Paul Lyons, P.E. >>> >>> Zapotec Energy Inc. >>> >>> 675 Massachusetts Ave >>> >>> Cambridge, MA 02139-3309 >>> >>> Tel: 617-547-5900 ext.201 >>> >>> Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com >>> >>> Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 18:53:27 2016 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 18:53:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shading from Overhead Transmission Lines In-Reply-To: References: <00ce01d16f1b$1b8fe3f0$52afabd0$@ZapotecEnergy.com> Message-ID: Hey Jerry, If I remember correctly - it was about five years ago - it was a little complicated because the utility was doing the witness test where they pull one phase and leave the other two connected, then test that there is no current on any phase (because the inverters should shut off when one phase drops). So two phases were still fully connected to the utility power, and there was current flowing on those conductors, not from the PV array but induced from the higher voltage lines. The inverter did shut off, but the utility was still measuring over 1A (at 12.47kV). I don't think we would have noticed except that the utility was specifically looking for the lack of current on the lines at that moment. I don't know what the high voltage lines were, maybe 100 kV and not that far above the PV system lines? On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Just so l understand you had current not voltage where was the current > flowing to. > I have had static voltage from HV transmission lines but not induced > current while the system was off. > Jerry > Jerry > On Feb 24, 2016 12:42 PM, "Rebekah Hren" wrote: > >> I'd be more worried about induced current/voltage on metal/conductors in >> the PV array, which seems like it could cause issues with GFP devices, and >> possibly unsafe conditions. I worked on one large array (5 MW) where the >> point of interconnection was parallel to / under high voltage lines. Even >> when the PV system wasn't operating there was measurable current on the PV >> system conductors induced from the high voltage lines above. The utility >> nearly wouldn't let the system be allowed to interconnect, because we had >> trouble proving the anti-islanding was working as current was still flowing >> when the utility supply was disconnected (on the lower voltage not higher >> voltage lines). >> Rebekah >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> We have both GT and off grid in the shadow lines, because of the >>> distance away, diameter of the wire and also the sun have not seen any >>> issues that will warrent micro inverters. All that said, its a moving >>> target and if the wires are very close then it will be more of an issue. >>> Something else to ponder can you in fact install under HV transmission >>> lines in your area. >>> Jerry >>> On Feb 24, 2016 5:50 AM, "Paul Lyons" wrote: >>> >>>> Hell RE-Wrenches – >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Do any of you have experience with locating ground-mounted PV systems >>>> under high-voltage transmission lines? We have an electric utility client >>>> who would like to use some of its land underneath its HV transmission lines >>>> to install PV. Is the shadow cast be the overhead wires significant enough >>>> to affect the string voltages in the array? Should we go with >>>> micro-inverters? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Paul Lyons, P.E. >>>> >>>> Zapotec Energy Inc. >>>> >>>> 675 Massachusetts Ave >>>> >>>> Cambridge, MA 02139-3309 >>>> >>>> Tel: 617-547-5900 ext.201 >>>> >>>> Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com >>>> >>>> Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Tel: 336.266.8800 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 >> NC Licensed Electrical Contractor >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Thu Feb 25 14:17:47 2016 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 14:17:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shading from Overhead Transmission Lines In-Reply-To: <00ce01d16f1b$1b8fe3f0$52afabd0$@ZapotecEnergy.com> References: <00ce01d16f1b$1b8fe3f0$52afabd0$@ZapotecEnergy.com> Message-ID: <01e201d17001$3664d0f0$a32e72d0$@net> The only experience I had with a PV array under the high voltage transmission lines was that the utility pulled out a 500' access rule and wouldn't allow the system to be installed. However, I would agree with the prior responder that the shading will be proportional to distance from the array. I would imagine that the poles / towers would be a bigger issue for shading and that the high voltage transmission wires would be negligible at 60' or more from the array. A close approximation of shade band could probably be made via geometry. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Phone: 413 883-3144 Spirit Solar www.SpiritSolar.net From: Paul Lyons [mailto:Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 10:51 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shading from Overhead Transmission Lines Hell RE-Wrenches - Do any of you have experience with locating ground-mounted PV systems under high-voltage transmission lines? We have an electric utility client who would like to use some of its land underneath its HV transmission lines to install PV. Is the shadow cast be the overhead wires significant enough to affect the string voltages in the array? Should we go with micro-inverters? Thank you, Paul Lyons, P.E. Zapotec Energy Inc. 675 Massachusetts Ave Cambridge, MA 02139-3309 Tel: 617-547-5900 ext.201 Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 20:52:07 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 15:52:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydraulic Ram Message-ID: Fellow Wrenches We are looking to rent or short term lease or sub contract someone to come to Hawaii and install 600kw of driven steel I beams, if anyone out there knows someone that has the track mounted driver and is interested Please contact me off list on this. Shipping to and from here is easy enough. This is a deal that is in contract and would much like to keep it in house (Wrenches House) so if there is anyone out there that has this type of equipment this would be great. Similar to the GAYK hydraulic Ram if this helps Jerry Shafer Green(((Path Technologies Lic C-29214 Director of Field Operations NABCEP Certified 051112-169 754 Ilaniwai Street Honolulu Hi. 96813 Main (808) 748-8418 Office (808)-748-8443 Fax (808)-443-0607 Cell (808)-291-2832 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 29 00:30:42 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 22:30:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Triggered Power Modulation Chilicon Microinverters Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have experience with Chilicon Microinverters? http://www.chiliconpower.com/ We do very few straight grid-tied systems, however, these micros are interesting because they have a built-in and adjustable function that modulates the power output based on the AC voltage at their terminals. I don't know the exact numbers but I believe it ramps from 100% power output starting at 255VAC ramping down to 0% output at 265VAC. My interest in these micros is for AC coupling applications for backup during grid outages. I am curious if you are islanding a backup loads panel, and the batteries are full and loads drop lower than the microinverter output, if the battery inverter will allow the AC waveform to creep up in a way that would allow the power modulation to take place. Is this a way to get reliable 3 stage charging when the grid is down without a DC charge controller or a diversion controller? How does a battery based inverter decide its time to do a frequency shift (or trip a relay) to throw the microinverters off-line? Normally, my preference is to DC couple or use a Sunny Island for these battery backups, but the rapid shutdown compliance really adds a lot of cost to these approaches on roof-mounts. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Mar 1 03:56:12 2016 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 23:56:12 -0900 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Induced V&I from overhead HV transmission lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D5592C.2020604@remotepowerinc.com> Rebekah and Jerry, If I'm understanding R's post below, at that particular install you could kill the disco for the inverter and still have 12 kV at 1 amp running around. Call me a worry-wort but that sounds like a _pretty important blind spot_ for us mortals to be aware of. Maybe the fact that it was a 5 MW installation would keep less experienced people from getting hurt but I'd sure like to see some good sized placards mounted on the front gate and at the disconnects, inverters etc. warning of the risk present even with a locked out/tagged out disco. Greatly appreciate you posting this Rebekah, I doubt I would have thought of this otherwise. Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. > Hey Jerry, > If I remember correctly - it was about five years ago - it was a little > complicated because the utility was doing the witness test where they pull > one phase and leave the other two connected, then test that there is no > current on any phase (because the inverters should shut off when one phase > drops). So two phases were still fully connected to the utility power, and > there was current flowing on those conductors, not from the PV array but > induced from the higher voltage lines. The inverter did shut off, but the > utility was still measuring over 1A (at 12.47kV). I don't think we would > have noticed except that the utility was specifically looking for the lack > of current on the lines at that moment. I don't know what the high voltage > lines were, maybe 100 kV and not that far above the PV system lines? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Tue Mar 1 16:29:38 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 14:29:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG neon 365 watt 72 cell modules, who sells them? Message-ID: I just reviewed the list to see if there was a note outlining who might be selling these modules, and I didn't see one. Anyone know if these are available in the US, and if so who might have them? Much appreciated. Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Mar 1 22:53:45 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:53:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG neon 365 watt 72 cell modules, who sells them? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ad01d17437$1f5962b0$5e0c2810$@parrish@calsolareng.com> You might try Borrego Solar. Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Tittmann Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 1:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG neon 365 watt 72 cell modules, who sells them? I just reviewed the list to see if there was a note outlining who might be selling these modules, and I didn't see one. Anyone know if these are available in the US, and if so who might have them? Much appreciated. Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Mar 2 11:32:49 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 08:32:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards Message-ID: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> All – We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Mar 2 13:06:00 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 10:06:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <56D72B88.40604@psln.com> Fortunately we haven't had that AHJ 'problem'. It probably wouldn't work (in the mind of your AHJ) to move the heavy loads to one side and install your backfed breaker on the far end of the 'lighter' side of the center tap. I know I'm probably dreaming..... It seems the 2 buses must be designed to handle 100 amps on both sides of the center tap to deal with a worst case scenario....how many times have we all seen a X rated panel (center tap or not) have 2X worth of CBs for the loads. Can you contact the manu of the panel to confirm the rating of the bus on either side of the center tap? Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 3/2/2016 8:32 AM, August Goers wrote: > > All – > > We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC > 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, > if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we > cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What > are other wrenches doing in this case? > > Best, > > August > > Luminalt > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 2 12:06:25 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 09:06:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <23064C8D-2758-4933-BFA2-7D56B301AFC3@millersolar.com> August: Our AHJs are correctly treating the top or bottom most breaker positions as "the opposite end." As you examine the problem you realize the only scenario in which currents add is if load breakers are NOT between the main and PV feeders. Locating PV feeders at either end of the bus accomplishes the goal of preventing additive currents. If it would help I could find a submittal check list on jurisdiction letter-head stipulating this allowance. William > On Mar 2, 2016, at 8:32 AM, August Goers wrote: > > All – > > We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Mar 2 13:53:31 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:53:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an AHJ. Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. -----Original Message----- From: "August Goers" Sent: ‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All – We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 2 14:24:29 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 11:24:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> All, Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more authoritative than JW). 705.12(B)(3)(d) (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 percent of the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 percent of the current rating of the busbar. This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the 120% rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was allowed from 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that centerfed panels did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in California or considering making an official policy accepting the language of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own jurisdiction. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an AHJ. Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. _____ From: August Goers Sent: ‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All – We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 15:37:40 2016 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:37:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG neon 365 watt 72 cell modules, who sells them Message-ID: We can get these modules straight from LG, so they are available in the US. Did you try LG to get a list of distributors they send to? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Mar 3 09:42:02 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:42:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> This is a link to John Wiles article on NEC2014 for this topic. To my knowledge, no one has adopted NEC2017, so it would seem that this article is appropriate for the most recent NEC published. As noted AHJs can allow exceptions, and it is great that new language is now approved for NEC2017, but that wasn't the case when John Wiles published his article. http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2014/07/10/center-fed-load-centers-and-panelboards/ There is also pdf version here. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjl8OmH26TLAhWI7D4KHcbJAHQQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdept-wp.nmsu.edu%2Fswtdi%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F11%2Fiaei_jul-aug_2014.pdf&usg=AFQjCNERV2M21V1nvLlvLVSLZUMoj36J_A&sig2=g145SdF1HzNuHc0P6NXshw&bvm=bv.115339255,d.cWw&cad=rja Chris On 3/2/2016 2:24 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > All, > > Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more > authoritative than JW). > > 705.12(B)(3)(d) > > (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed > panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 > percent of the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating > of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 > percent of the current rating of the busbar. > > This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the > 120% rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was > allowed from 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that > centerfed panels did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several > large jurisdictions in California or considering making an official > policy accepting the language of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please > share this with your own jurisdiction. > > Bill. > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% > rule for center-fed panelboards > > I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in > print, therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the > rule to an AHJ. > > Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: *August Goers > *Sent: *‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule > for center-fed panelboards > > All – > > We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC > 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, > if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we > cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What > are other wrenches doing in this case? > > Best, > > August > > Luminalt > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From phil at insoltechsolar.com Thu Mar 3 11:25:57 2016 From: phil at insoltechsolar.com (Philip Lawes Insoltech) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 08:25:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <015e01d17569$5e04e510$1a0eaf30$@insoltechsolar.com> Bill, Could you please provide an example of this showing calculations? Thanks so much, Phil From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 11:24 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All, Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more authoritative than JW). 705.12(B)(3)(d) (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 percent of the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 percent of the current rating of the busbar. This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the 120% rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was allowed from 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that centerfed panels did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in California or considering making an official policy accepting the language of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own jurisdiction. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an AHJ. Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. _____ From: August Goers Sent: ‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All – We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 3 12:07:16 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:07:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <015e01d17569$5e04e510$1a0eaf30$@insoltechsolar.com> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <015e01d17569$5e04e510$1a0eaf30$@insoltechsolar.com> Message-ID: <007d01d1756f$263f0920$72bd1b60$@sbcglobal.net> Phil, I think you already understand how to apply the “120% rule.” All this is saying is that the breaker can go at either end of a center-fed panel for dwellings. Do you understand now? To summarize—a 200A center-fed panel would allow a 40-amp PV breaker to be installed at either end to meet the 120% rule. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Philip Lawes Insoltech Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 8:26 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards Bill, Could you please provide an example of this showing calculations? Thanks so much, Phil From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 11:24 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All, Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more authoritative than JW). 705.12(B)(3)(d) (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 percent of the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 percent of the current rating of the busbar. This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the 120% rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was allowed from 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that centerfed panels did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in California or considering making an official policy accepting the language of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own jurisdiction. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an AHJ. Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. _____ From: August Goers Sent: ‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All – We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Mar 3 13:30:35 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 11:30:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG neon 365 watt 72 cell modules, who sells them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001701d1757a$c7d4d890$577e89b0$@com> I think AEE & Focus energy both sell LG __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steven Lawrence Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:38 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG neon 365 watt 72 cell modules, who sells them We can get these modules straight from LG, so they are available in the US. Did you try LG to get a list of distributors they send to? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Mar 3 15:10:57 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards Message-ID: Bill, Did I understand your earlier post to infer that there never was an intent to apply the "opposite end of the buss" rule to the 120% backfeed allowance in residential applications? And that you have been working to rewrite a solar backfeed breaker in a residential setting to land anywhere on the buss? Howie *Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:07 PM, wrote: > Phil, > > > > I think you already understand how to apply the “120% rule.” All this is > saying is that the breaker can go at either end of a center-fed panel for > dwellings. Do you understand now? > > > > To summarize—a 200A center-fed panel would allow a 40-amp PV breaker to be > installed at either end to meet the 120% rule. > > > > Bill. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Philip Lawes Insoltech > *Sent:* Thursday, March 03, 2016 8:26 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule > for center-fed panelboards > > > > Bill, > > Could you please provide an example of this showing calculations? > > Thanks so much, > > Phil > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of * > billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 2, 2016 11:24 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule > for center-fed panelboards > > > > All, > > > > Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more > authoritative than JW). > > > > 705.12(B)(3)(d) > > > > (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed > panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 percent of > the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating of the > overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 percent of the > current rating of the busbar. > > > > This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the 120% > rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was allowed from > 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that centerfed panels > did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in > California or considering making an official policy accepting the language > of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own jurisdiction. > > > > Bill. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule > for center-fed panelboards > > > > I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, > therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an > AHJ. > > Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. > ------------------------------ > > *From: *August Goers > *Sent: *‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for > center-fed panelboards > > All – > > > > We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) > 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A > meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% > rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in > this case? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Mar 3 15:27:41 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 15:27:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext Battery Monitor Message-ID: I have recently installed my first Conext SW4024 and I am so far general impressed, particularly compared to earlier Xantrex products. I am now installing the battery monitor and am trying to decide on location. It is replacing an old TM500 meter which was part of the old Trace SW4024 power panel installation which was replaced. Ideally the Conext SCP would remain by the inverter (in the e-panel) while the Battery Monitor replaces the TM500 which was upstairs for the client to view easily. owever, in talking to Shneider support, I was told that the monitor screen is not easy to read, and that the battery temp sensor attached to the inverte, while sharing temperature with the battery monitor for calculations, will not allow the battery monitor to display temperature info nor the temp adjusted voltage readings (and therefore the SOC as well). This doesn't make sense to me, so I just wanted to verify that this is in fact the case before I spend time trying to run the 3 cables (2 ethernet and 1 temp sensor) through 30' of wall between the battery/inverter location in the basement and the BM display upstairs. Anyone have experience and advice? Thanks as always! Howie *Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 3 15:40:08 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 12:40:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> Chris, While John’s article may seem like a logical interpretation of the 2014 NEC, if you lived in the western half of the United States where these panels are common, you would have a very different view of his choice of articles. His article sites a technicality that is not a safety concern in the least. Of all the things that AHJs have to worry about with PV, this has to be at the very bottom of the list—and yet this is the only thing that many AHJs look at because someone wrote an article about it. We set the record straight in the 2017 NEC, but that does not fix the fact that literally 1,000s of these perfectly fine panels have been removed due to the focus of this magazine article. Your opinion of this interpretation would be very different if you had lost a PV system sale because someone was unwilling to incur the extra cost of a panel change out when you knew it was totally unnecessary. I have all the respect in the world for what you are doing in the northeast. I’m just helping with some “perspective” from the left coast. I’m off my high horse, Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 6:42 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards This is a link to John Wiles article on NEC2014 for this topic. To my knowledge, no one has adopted NEC2017, so it would seem that this article is appropriate for the most recent NEC published. As noted AHJs can allow exceptions, and it is great that new language is now approved for NEC2017, but that wasn't the case when John Wiles published his article. http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2014/07/10/center-fed-load-centers-and-panelboards/ There is also pdf version here. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t &rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjl8OmH26TLAhWI7D4KHcbJAHQQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdept-wp.nmsu.edu%2Fswtdi%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F11%2Fiaei_jul-aug_2014.pdf&usg=AFQjCNERV2M21V1nvLlvLVSLZUMoj36J_A&sig2=g145SdF1HzNuHc0P6NXshw&bvm=bv.115339255,d.cWw&cad=rja Chris On 3/2/2016 2:24 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: All, Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more authoritative than JW). 705.12(B)(3)(d) (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 percent of the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 percent of the current rating of the busbar. This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the 120% rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was allowed from 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that centerfed panels did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in California or considering making an official policy accepting the language of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own jurisdiction. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an AHJ. Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. _____ From: August Goers Sent: ‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All – We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? Best, August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 3 15:45:30 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 12:45:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00cf01d1758d$a3053100$e90f9300$@sbcglobal.net> Howie, To clarify what the 2017 NEC states, it allows for either end of the bus. There is some value to having loads in between the PV breaker and the main breaker. Also, by putting the PV breaker as far away from the main as possible, the heat of both breakers are likely to affect each other. The 2005 and earlier NEC did not stipulate anything about location on the bus. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 12:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards Bill, Did I understand your earlier post to infer that there never was an intent to apply the "opposite end of the buss" rule to the 120% backfeed allowance in residential applications? And that you have been working to rewrite a solar backfeed breaker in a residential setting to land anywhere on the buss? Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:07 PM, > wrote: Phil, I think you already understand how to apply the “120% rule.” All this is saying is that the breaker can go at either end of a center-fed panel for dwellings. Do you understand now? To summarize—a 200A center-fed panel would allow a 40-amp PV breaker to be installed at either end to meet the 120% rule. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Philip Lawes Insoltech Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 8:26 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards Bill, Could you please provide an example of this showing calculations? Thanks so much, Phil From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 11:24 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All, Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more authoritative than JW). 705.12(B)(3)(d) (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 percent of the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 percent of the current rating of the busbar. This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the 120% rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was allowed from 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that centerfed panels did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in California or considering making an official policy accepting the language of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own jurisdiction. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an AHJ. Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. _____ From: August Goers Sent: ‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All – We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? Best, August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at insoltechsolar.com Thu Mar 3 16:23:01 2016 From: phil at insoltechsolar.com (Philip Lawes Insoltech) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 13:23:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <007d01d1756f$263f0920$72bd1b60$@sbcglobal.net> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <015e01d17569$5e04e510$1a0eaf30$@insoltechsolar.com> <007d01d1756f$263f0920$72bd1b60$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <01c501d17592$ddc2a110$9947e330$@insoltechsolar.com> Thanks Bill, I got it. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 9:07 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards Phil, I think you already understand how to apply the “120% rule.” All this is saying is that the breaker can go at either end of a center-fed panel for dwellings. Do you understand now? To summarize—a 200A center-fed panel would allow a 40-amp PV breaker to be installed at either end to meet the 120% rule. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Philip Lawes Insoltech Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 8:26 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards Bill, Could you please provide an example of this showing calculations? Thanks so much, Phil From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 11:24 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All, Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more authoritative than JW). 705.12(B)(3)(d) (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 percent of the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 percent of the current rating of the busbar. This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the 120% rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was allowed from 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that centerfed panels did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in California or considering making an official policy accepting the language of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own jurisdiction. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an AHJ. Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. _____ From: August Goers Sent: ‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards All – We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Mar 4 09:53:02 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:53:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56D9A14E.7040908@entech-engineering.com> Bill, I am just pointing out that JW's article seems to be what the NEC says in 2014, that's all. Again it is great that you were able to get new language in 2017. I am in a job where we have to compare 2008 to 2014as 2008 is in effect, but 2014 has somany more interconnection options, that we advise the installers to take the 2014 NEC to the AHJ and show that new interconnectionmethods are available and should be considered by the AHJ even thoughNEC 2008 in the current code. One thing for sure, it is changing very quickly and I think most of us are having a very difficult time keeping up with it. At least I am. Rapid Shut Down is going to be more of an issue than thisI think, and that is going to be chewed over quite a bit on Wrenches Ibet. Chris On 3/3/2016 3:40 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > Chris, > >  > > While John’s article may seem like a logical interpretation of the > 2014 NEC, if you lived in the western half of the United States where > these panels are common, you would have a very different view of his > choice of articles. > >  > > His article sites a technicality that is not a safety concern in the > least. Of all the things that AHJs have to worry about with PV, this > has to be at the very bottom of the list—and yet this is the only > thing that many AHJs look at because someone wrote an article about > it. We set the record straight in the 2017 NEC, but that does not fix > the fact that literally 1,000s of these perfectly fine panels have > been removed due to the focus of this magazine article. > >  > > Your opinion of this interpretation would be very different if you had > lost a PV system sale because someone was unwilling to incur the extra > cost of a panel change out when you knew it was totally unnecessary. > >  > > I have all the respect in the world for what you are doing in the > northeast. I’m just helping with some “perspective” from the > left coast. > >  > > I’m off my high horse, > >  > > Bill. > >  > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Thursday, March 03, 2016 6:42 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% > rule for center-fed panelboards > >  > > This is a link to John Wiles article on NEC2014 for this topic. To my > knowledge, no one has adopted NEC2017, so it would seem that this > article is appropriate for the most recent NEC published. As noted > AHJs can allow exceptions, and it is great that new language is now > approved for NEC2017, but that wasn't the case when John Wiles > published his article. > > http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2014/07/10/center-fed-load-centers-and-panelboards/ > > There is also pdf version here. > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjl8OmH26TLAhWI7D4KHcbJAHQQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdept-wp.nmsu.edu%2Fswtdi%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F11%2Fiaei_jul-aug_2014.pdf&usg=AFQjCNERV2M21V1nvLlvLVSLZUMoj36J_A&sig2=g145SdF1HzNuHc0P6NXshw&bvm=bv.115339255,d.cWw&cad=rja > > > Chris > > > On 3/2/2016 2:24 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > All, > >  > > Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC > (more authoritative than JW). > >  > > 705.12(B)(3)(d) > >  > > (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed > panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 > percent of the power source(s) output circuit current and the > rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not > exceed 120 percent of the current rating of the busbar. > >  > > This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit > the 120% rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it > was allowed from 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the > panel that centerfed panels did not need the opposite end > stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in California or > considering making an official policy accepting the language of > the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own > jurisdiction. > >  > > Bill. > >  > >  > > *From:* RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% > rule for center-fed panelboards > >  > > I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in > print, therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around > the rule to an AHJ. > > Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: *August Goers > *Sent: *‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% > rule for center-fed panelboards > > All – > >  > > We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC > 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For > example, if we have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 > A breaker we cannot apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a > panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in this case? > >  > > Best, > >  > > August > > Luminalt > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >  > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > >  > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >  > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >  > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > >  > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > >  > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From abe at solforce.com Fri Mar 4 12:38:50 2016 From: abe at solforce.com (Abe Powell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 09:38:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I support Bill's assertion here and his work on the code making committee. Certain AHJ's in California are obsessing about center-fed residential panels. (County of Santa Barbara, for example) The result is unnecessary meter-main panel upgrades. These upgrades drive the cost of solar installations up significantly ($2000-$4000.) This added cost acts as barrier-to-entry into the solar market. The problem with all of this is that *center-fed residential panels are not a safety problem to begin with. * Thus, we get: A) increased cost, B) fewer solar installations and C) no improvement in overall safety. Put simply, *this is a lose-lose situation that needs to be addressed now*, because adoption of the 2017 code is a long way away for most of us. Best regards, Abe ----------------------------- John Abraham Powell CEO Solforce W. 805/695-0015 C. 805/895-2355 E. abe at solforce.com www.solforce.com CA License. 806685 On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:40 PM, wrote: > Chris, > > > > While John’s article may seem like a logical interpretation of the 2014 > NEC, if you lived in the western half of the United States where these > panels are common, you would have a very different view of his choice of > articles. > > > > His article sites a technicality that is not a safety concern in the > least. Of all the things that AHJs have to worry about with PV, this has to > be at the very bottom of the list—and yet this is the only thing that many > AHJs look at because someone wrote an article about it. We set the record > straight in the 2017 NEC, but that does not fix the fact that literally > 1,000s of these perfectly fine panels have been removed due to the focus of > this magazine article. > > > > Your opinion of this interpretation would be very different if you had > lost a PV system sale because someone was unwilling to incur the extra cost > of a panel change out when you knew it was totally unnecessary. > > > > I have all the respect in the world for what you are doing in the > northeast. I’m just helping with some “perspective” from the left coast. > > > > I’m off my high horse, > > > > Bill. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Thursday, March 03, 2016 6:42 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule > for center-fed panelboards > > > > This is a link to John Wiles article on NEC2014 for this topic. To my > knowledge, no one has adopted NEC2017, so it would seem that this article > is appropriate for the most recent NEC published. As noted AHJs can allow > exceptions, and it is great that new language is now approved for NEC2017, > but that wasn't the case when John Wiles published his article. > > > http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2014/07/10/center-fed-load-centers-and-panelboards/ > > There is also pdf version here. > > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjl8OmH26TLAhWI7D4KHcbJAHQQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdept-wp.nmsu.edu%2Fswtdi%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F11%2Fiaei_jul-aug_2014.pdf&usg=AFQjCNERV2M21V1nvLlvLVSLZUMoj36J_A&sig2=g145SdF1HzNuHc0P6NXshw&bvm=bv.115339255,d.cWw&cad=rja > > > Chris > > > On 3/2/2016 2:24 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > All, > > > > Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more > authoritative than JW). > > > > 705.12(B)(3)(d) > > > > (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed > panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 percent of > the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating of the > overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 percent of the > current rating of the busbar. > > > > This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the 120% > rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was allowed from > 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that centerfed panels > did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in > California or considering making an official policy accepting the language > of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own jurisdiction. > > > > Bill. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule > for center-fed panelboards > > > > I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, > therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an > AHJ. > > Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. > ------------------------------ > > *From: *August Goers > *Sent: *‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for > center-fed panelboards > > All – > > > > We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) > 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we have a 100 A > meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot apply the 120% > rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other wrenches doing in > this case? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, President > > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Sat Mar 5 12:25:29 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 09:25:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for center-fed panelboards In-Reply-To: References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: HI All - Thanks for the good input. I suppose it will be up to each of us to work with our local AHJs to determine the fate of PV and center-fed panelboards. In CA we're we won't be under the 2014 NEC until 2017 and the 2017 NEC won't kick in until 2020. We have a ways to go before getting clear code guidance under the new 2017 language that Bill posted. As PV goes more and more mainstream I'm seeing the general AHJ awareness of these once-obscure code questions go higher. Many AHJs just go by the most conservative view of the NEC and won't budge on these types of issues. They will side with John Wiles' interpretation. All that said, I will certainly work with some of our local Bay Area AHJs to see if they will be willing to look forward to the 2017 NEC language and accept the 120% rule for center-fed panelboards. I'll report back if I make progress. Cheers, August *August Goers* Luminalt Energy Corporation o: 415.641.4000 m: 415.559.1525 www.luminalt.com On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Abe Powell wrote: > I support Bill's assertion here and his work on the code making committee. > > Certain AHJ's in California are obsessing about center-fed residential > panels. (County of Santa Barbara, for example) The result is unnecessary > meter-main panel upgrades. These upgrades drive the cost of solar > installations up significantly ($2000-$4000.) This added cost acts as > barrier-to-entry into the solar market. > > The problem with all of this is that *center-fed residential panels are > not a safety problem to begin with. * > > Thus, we get: A) increased cost, B) fewer solar installations and C) no > improvement in overall safety. > > Put simply, *this is a lose-lose situation that needs to be addressed now*, > because adoption of the 2017 code is a long way away for most of us. > > Best regards, > > Abe > ----------------------------- > John Abraham Powell > CEO > Solforce > W. 805/695-0015 > C. 805/895-2355 > E. abe at solforce.com > www.solforce.com > CA License. 806685 > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:40 PM, wrote: > >> Chris, >> >> >> >> While John’s article may seem like a logical interpretation of the 2014 >> NEC, if you lived in the western half of the United States where these >> panels are common, you would have a very different view of his choice of >> articles. >> >> >> >> His article sites a technicality that is not a safety concern in the >> least. Of all the things that AHJs have to worry about with PV, this has to >> be at the very bottom of the list—and yet this is the only thing that many >> AHJs look at because someone wrote an article about it. We set the record >> straight in the 2017 NEC, but that does not fix the fact that literally >> 1,000s of these perfectly fine panels have been removed due to the focus of >> this magazine article. >> >> >> >> Your opinion of this interpretation would be very different if you had >> lost a PV system sale because someone was unwilling to incur the extra cost >> of a panel change out when you knew it was totally unnecessary. >> >> >> >> I have all the respect in the world for what you are doing in the >> northeast. I’m just helping with some “perspective” from the left coast. >> >> >> >> I’m off my high horse, >> >> >> >> Bill. >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 03, 2016 6:42 AM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule >> for center-fed panelboards >> >> >> >> This is a link to John Wiles article on NEC2014 for this topic. To my >> knowledge, no one has adopted NEC2017, so it would seem that this article >> is appropriate for the most recent NEC published. As noted AHJs can allow >> exceptions, and it is great that new language is now approved for NEC2017, >> but that wasn't the case when John Wiles published his article. >> >> >> http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2014/07/10/center-fed-load-centers-and-panelboards/ >> >> There is also pdf version here. >> >> >> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjl8OmH26TLAhWI7D4KHcbJAHQQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdept-wp.nmsu.edu%2Fswtdi%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F11%2Fiaei_jul-aug_2014.pdf&usg=AFQjCNERV2M21V1nvLlvLVSLZUMoj36J_A&sig2=g145SdF1HzNuHc0P6NXshw&bvm=bv.115339255,d.cWw&cad=rja >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> On 3/2/2016 2:24 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> >> All, >> >> >> >> Here is the new language that has been approved for the 2017 NEC (more >> authoritative than JW). >> >> >> >> 705.12(B)(3)(d) >> >> >> >> (d) A connection at either end, but not both ends, of a center-fed >> panelboard in dwellings shall be permitted where the sum of 125 percent of >> the power source(s) output circuit current and the rating of the >> overcurrent device protecting the busbar does not exceed 120 percent of the >> current rating of the busbar. >> >> >> >> This clarifies that it was never the intent of the NEC to limit the 120% >> rule to the opposite end of the busbar for dwellings (it was allowed from >> 2005 back to 1987). I was able to convince the panel that centerfed panels >> did not need the opposite end stipulation. Several large jurisdictions in >> California or considering making an official policy accepting the language >> of the 2017 NEC on this item. Please share this with your own jurisdiction. >> >> >> >> Bill. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:54 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule >> for center-fed panelboards >> >> >> >> I believe that John Wiles has stated this in a couple of places in print, >> therefore you may have a tough time justifying a way around the rule to an >> AHJ. >> >> Supply side connections are very popular in this situation. >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From: *August Goers >> *Sent: *‎3/‎2/‎2016 11:32 >> *To: *RE-wrenches >> *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] NEC 705.12 Point of Connection - 120% rule for >> center-fed panelboards >> >> All – >> >> >> >> We are seeing more AHJs not allowing us to use the NEC >> 7015.12(D)(2)(3)(b) 120% rule on center-fed panelboards. For example, if we >> have a 100 A meter/main combo with a center fed 100 A breaker we cannot >> apply the 120% rule at all and need to do a panel swap. What are other >> wrenches doing in this case? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> August >> >> Luminalt >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Christopher Warfel, President >> >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Mon Mar 7 12:27:27 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 09:27:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <001c01d17896$9ffc61c0$dff52540$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Mar 7 14:36:11 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 14:36:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: <001c01d17896$9ffc61c0$dff52540$@parrish@calsolareng.com> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> <001c01d17896$9ffc61c0$dff52540$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: <20160307193618.47224105F8@che.dreamhost.com> That product line was discontinued mid-summer of last year with no replacement in sight. -----Original Message----- From: "Peter Parrish" Sent: ‎3/‎7/‎2016 12:27 To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 14:56:17 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 12:56:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: <56ddd0e2.4d41420a.51f45.ffff953aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> <56ddd0e2.4d41420a.51f45.ffff953aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter; My understanding is that the only thing left of Solmetric at Vivint is the PV Analyzer, and though they stated a year ago that they were going to "streamline" the PV sales process so that the site survey could be accomplished on the same day as the sale, I've seen nothing else from them. Very happy that I've kept the heavily-modded Solar Pathfinder that I bought in 1994, with a real tripod adaptor. For quicky site surveys and semi-interested customers, I use an Android smartphone app, which is pretty accurate IF you build a tripod adaptor for the phone. I'm surprised someone hasn't leapt in to claim this market share. Not all of us are big-city no-battery PV installers who can use the new Google tool that estimates tree heights. My class experiments with this were a bust....it only sorta kinda works. Ground truth is the only thing I trust. Maybe I should just start building and marketing my Pathfinder and smartphone tripod adaptors. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked > away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William.White at rgsenergy.com Mon Mar 7 15:12:19 2016 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 20:12:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: <20160307193618.47224105F8@che.dreamhost.com> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> <001c01d17896$9ffc61c0$dff52540$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <20160307193618.47224105F8@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Has anyone found a viable alternative? The real issue I see is that we have to use something accepted by incentive and finance organizations and so far the only thing they accept (for the most part) is SunEye and Pathfinder. Thanks, Will Will White Director of Construction – East Coast RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com | william.white at rgsenergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 2:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? That product line was discontinued mid-summer of last year with no replacement in sight. ________________________________ From: Peter Parrish Sent: ‎3/‎7/‎2016 12:27 To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:29:49 2016 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:29:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> <56ddd0e2.4d41420a.51f45.ffff953aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I think the fact that no manufacturer has jumped in to fill the void left by the SunEye is an indicator that remote shade analysis tools like Aurora (my favorite) are the likely path forward for the industry. These tools can typically make it possible to generate a full rendering and shade analysis in less than 15 minutes for the experienced user, without ever having to get on a roof. NREL did some validation studies (here's Aurora's ) and found a few tools to produce results as good or better than the SunEye, which makes sense to me since the analysis is based on an integral over the whole roof surface as opposed to a few point measurements. Of course the "garbage in, garbage out" principle is very applicable. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 <%28202%29%20486-7507> [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Hi Peter; > My understanding is that the only thing left of Solmetric at Vivint is the > PV Analyzer, and though they stated a year ago that they were going to > "streamline" the PV sales process so that the site survey could be > accomplished on the same day as the sale, I've seen nothing else from them. > Very happy that I've kept the heavily-modded Solar Pathfinder that I > bought in 1994, with a real tripod adaptor. > For quicky site surveys and semi-interested customers, I use an Android > smartphone app, which is pretty accurate IF you build a tripod adaptor for > the phone. > I'm surprised someone hasn't leapt in to claim this market share. Not all > of us are big-city no-battery PV installers who can use the new Google tool > that estimates tree heights. My class experiments with this were a > bust....it only sorta kinda works. > Ground truth is the only thing I trust. Maybe I should just start building > and marketing my Pathfinder and smartphone tripod adaptors. > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Peter Parrish < > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > >> Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it >> tucked away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? >> >> >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> >> President, SolarGnosis >> >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. >> >> Suite 351 >> >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> >> (323) 839-6108 >> >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35142 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Mar 7 17:20:32 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 14:20:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback IBR specs Message-ID: <5883276f90ad58cc1a27cf0875a92d62@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: If any of you are planning on installing the Outback IBR racks be advised that the published dimensions are wrong. Also be advised they do not come with straps to secure the batteries. I hope I can save someone a headache by posting this information. Sincerely, William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Mar 7 17:58:15 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 14:58:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> <56ddd0e2.4d41420a.51f45.ffff953aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Wrenches: This approach is emblematic of the cheapening of the solar industry. If a contractor cannot be bothered to get on a roof to provide an accurate assessment of the site, I wonder if they will be honest if it turns out there are shading or other issues not anticipated? The entry level installer will never notice shading problems. If there are undocumented shading issues, the consumer may never know they are being cheated out of some of the return on their investment. This is true also about the condition of the roof and electrical infrastructure. We have seen the contracts offered by some of our competition. They get the job by low-balling estimates and then make up the difference by contract “adders.” I believe that at some point a competent professional needs to get out of the office and in the field to evaluate each and every job before the contract is offered or the customer suffers. I caution consumers: if no one looked carefully at your roof and your electrical then you are not dealing with a reputable contractor. William Miller PS: The Pathfinder is still a reliable, accurate alternative. If you apply the values on the chart to a model adjusted for pitch, azimuth and local insolation you can get very accurate values for shading. Those who can create a spreadsheet tool will find the results can be tabulated in short order. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Truitt *Sent:* Monday, March 07, 2016 12:30 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? I think the fact that no manufacturer has jumped in to fill the void left by the SunEye is an indicator that remote shade analysis tools like Aurora (my favorite) are the likely path forward for the industry. These tools can typically make it possible to generate a full rendering and shade analysis in less than 15 minutes for the experienced user, without ever having to get on a roof. NREL did some validation studies (here's Aurora's ) and found a few tools to produce results as good or better than the SunEye, which makes sense to me since the analysis is based on an integral over the whole roof surface as opposed to a few point measurements. Of course the "garbage in, garbage out" principle is very applicable. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Hi Peter; My understanding is that the only thing left of Solmetric at Vivint is the PV Analyzer, and though they stated a year ago that they were going to "streamline" the PV sales process so that the site survey could be accomplished on the same day as the sale, I've seen nothing else from them. Very happy that I've kept the heavily-modded Solar Pathfinder that I bought in 1994, with a real tripod adaptor. For quicky site surveys and semi-interested customers, I use an Android smartphone app, which is pretty accurate IF you build a tripod adaptor for the phone. I'm surprised someone hasn't leapt in to claim this market share. Not all of us are big-city no-battery PV installers who can use the new Google tool that estimates tree heights. My class experiments with this were a bust....it only sorta kinda works. Ground truth is the only thing I trust. Maybe I should just start building and marketing my Pathfinder and smartphone tripod adaptors. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5141 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 18:39:04 2016 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 23:39:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1064894550.5599379.1457393944923.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Pathfinder now makes and app. for microsoft tablets that works great!  Give them a call and they will be happy to tell you all about it.   Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc.Since 1987,Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com "Better one's House too little one daythan too big all the Year after." On Monday, March 7, 2016 2:58 PM, William Miller wrote: #yiv4449929903 #yiv4449929903 -- _filtered #yiv4449929903 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4449929903 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv4449929903 #yiv4449929903 p.yiv4449929903MsoNormal, #yiv4449929903 li.yiv4449929903MsoNormal, #yiv4449929903 div.yiv4449929903MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4449929903 a:link, #yiv4449929903 span.yiv4449929903MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4449929903 a:visited, #yiv4449929903 span.yiv4449929903MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4449929903 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4449929903 p.yiv4449929903MsoAcetate, #yiv4449929903 li.yiv4449929903MsoAcetate, #yiv4449929903 div.yiv4449929903MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv4449929903 span.yiv4449929903EmailStyle18 {color:black;}#yiv4449929903 span.yiv4449929903BalloonTextChar {}#yiv4449929903 .yiv4449929903MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv4449929903 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv4449929903 div.yiv4449929903WordSection1 {}#yiv4449929903 Wrenches: This approach is emblematic of the cheapening of the solar industry.  If a contractor cannot be bothered to get on a roof to provide an accurate assessment of the site, I wonder if they will be honest if it turns out there are shading or other issues not anticipated?  The entry level installer will never notice shading problems.  If there are undocumented shading issues, the consumer may never know they are being cheated out of some of the return on their investment. This is true also about the condition of the roof and electrical infrastructure.  We have seen the contracts offered by some of our competition.  They get the job by low-balling estimates and then make up the difference by contract “adders.” I believe that at some point a competent professional needs to get out of the office and in the field to evaluate each and every job before the contract is offered or the customer suffers.  I caution consumers:  if no one looked carefully at your roof and your electrical then you are not dealing with a reputable contractor. William Miller PS:  The Pathfinder is still a reliable, accurate alternative.  If you apply the values on the chart to a model adjusted for pitch, azimuth and local insolation you can get very accurate values for shading.  Those who can create a spreadsheet tool will find the results can be tabulated in short order. Wm  Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Truitt Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 12:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210?  I think the fact that no manufacturer has jumped in to fill the void left by the SunEye is an indicator that remote shade analysis tools like Aurora (my favorite) are the likely path forward for the industry.  These tools can typically make it possible to generate a full rendering and shade analysis in less than 15 minutes for the experienced user, without ever having to get on a roof.  NREL did some validation studies (here's Aurora's) and found a few tools to produce results as good or better than the SunEye, which makes sense to me since the analysis is based on an integral over the whole roof surface as opposed to a few point measurements.  Of course the "garbage in, garbage out" principle is very applicable.    For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC(202) 486-7507LinkedIn ProfileCompany WebsiteNABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough       On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote:Hi Peter;My understanding is that the only thing left of Solmetric at Vivint is the PV Analyzer, and though they stated a year ago that they were going to "streamline" the PV sales process so that the site survey could be accomplished on the same day as the sale, I've seen nothing else from them.Very happy that I've kept the heavily-modded Solar Pathfinder that I bought in 1994, with a real tripod adaptor. For quicky site surveys and semi-interested customers, I use an Android smartphone app, which is pretty accurate IF you build a tripod adaptor for the phone.I'm surprised someone hasn't leapt in to claim this market share. Not all of us are big-city no-battery PV installers who can use the new Google tool that  estimates tree heights. My class experiments with this were a bust....it only sorta kinda works. Ground truth is the only thing I trust. Maybe I should just start building and marketing my Pathfinder and smartphone tripod adaptors.  Dan FinkAdjunct Professor, Ecotech InstituteIREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional~ Small Wind InstallerExecutive Director, Buckville EnergyNABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342   On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.President, SolarGnosis1107 Fair Oaks Ave.Suite 351South Pasadena, CA 91030(323) 839-6108petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5141 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 19:15:04 2016 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 17:15:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> <56ddd0e2.4d41420a.51f45.ffff953aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: William - I agree that the condition of the roof and electrical service should be inspected before installation, but for some installers its helpful to have an accurate shade analysis prior to visiting the site. I don't think the use of a cost-effective technology implies that the installer is cheap or unwilling to do the diligence required for proper system design. And if a company has entry level installers leading jobs I think they likely have bigger issues on their hands. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 <%28202%29%20486-7507> [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 3:58 PM, William Miller wrote: > Wrenches: > > > > This approach is emblematic of the cheapening of the solar industry. If a > contractor cannot be bothered to get on a roof to provide an accurate > assessment of the site, I wonder if they will be honest if it turns out > there are shading or other issues not anticipated? The entry level > installer will never notice shading problems. If there are undocumented > shading issues, the consumer may never know they are being cheated out of > some of the return on their investment. > > > > This is true also about the condition of the roof and electrical > infrastructure. We have seen the contracts offered by some of our > competition. They get the job by low-balling estimates and then make up > the difference by contract “adders.” > > > > I believe that at some point a competent professional needs to get out of > the office and in the field to evaluate each and every job before the > contract is offered or the customer suffers. I caution consumers: if no > one looked carefully at your roof and your electrical then you are not > dealing with a reputable contractor. > > > > William Miller > > > > PS: The Pathfinder is still a reliable, accurate alternative. If you > apply the values on the chart to a model adjusted for pitch, azimuth and > local insolation you can get very accurate values for shading. Those who > can create a spreadsheet tool will find the results can be tabulated in > short order. > > > > Wm > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Andrew Truitt > *Sent:* Monday, March 07, 2016 12:30 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? > > > > > > I think the fact that no manufacturer has jumped in to fill the void left > by the SunEye is an indicator that remote shade analysis tools like Aurora > (my favorite) are the likely path forward for the industry. These tools > can typically make it possible to generate a full rendering and shade > analysis in less than 15 minutes for the experienced user, without ever > having to get on a roof. NREL did some validation studies (here's > Aurora's ) and found a few > tools to produce results as good or better than the SunEye, which makes > sense to me since the analysis is based on an integral over the whole roof > surface as opposed to a few point measurements. Of course the "garbage in, > garbage out" principle is very applicable. > > > > > > > > > > For a brighter energy future, > > > Andrew Truitt > > Principal > Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC > > (202) 486-7507 > > LinkedIn Profile > > Company Website > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: 24 copy.jpg] > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Hi Peter; > > My understanding is that the only thing left of Solmetric at Vivint is the > PV Analyzer, and though they stated a year ago that they were going to > "streamline" the PV sales process so that the site survey could be > accomplished on the same day as the sale, I've seen nothing else from them. > > Very happy that I've kept the heavily-modded Solar Pathfinder that I > bought in 1994, with a real tripod adaptor. > > For quicky site surveys and semi-interested customers, I use an Android > smartphone app, which is pretty accurate IF you build a tripod adaptor for > the phone. > > I'm surprised someone hasn't leapt in to claim this market share. Not all > of us are big-city no-battery PV installers who can use the new Google tool > that estimates tree heights. My class experiments with this were a > bust....it only sorta kinda works. > > Ground truth is the only thing I trust. Maybe I should just start building > and marketing my Pathfinder and smartphone tripod adaptors. > > > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Peter Parrish < > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > > Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked > away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35142 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5141 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Mar 8 12:24:08 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 09:24:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> <56ddd0e2.4d41420a.51f45.ffff953aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: All – We still have several SunEyes and make it standard procedure to take shots on every roof. However, our sales reps have been using Solar Census with mostly good results: http://www.solarcensus.com/about/ I have not tried Aurora solar but my experience after running hundreds of Solar Census sites in the Bay Area is that it is quite accurate compared to SunEye shots. Solar Census has a limited geographic area of coverage, so watch out for that. We have noticed discrepancies for steep non-optimal orientations (for example 45 deg pitch facing 80 deg East) where Solar Census reports less solar access than our comparable SunEye shots. I don’t yet know which is more accurate. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Truitt *Sent:* Monday, March 07, 2016 4:15 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? William - I agree that the condition of the roof and electrical service should be inspected before installation, but for some installers its helpful to have an accurate shade analysis prior to visiting the site. I don't think the use of a cost-effective technology implies that the installer is cheap or unwilling to do the diligence required for proper system design. And if a company has entry level installers leading jobs I think they likely have bigger issues on their hands. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 3:58 PM, William Miller wrote: Wrenches: This approach is emblematic of the cheapening of the solar industry. If a contractor cannot be bothered to get on a roof to provide an accurate assessment of the site, I wonder if they will be honest if it turns out there are shading or other issues not anticipated? The entry level installer will never notice shading problems. If there are undocumented shading issues, the consumer may never know they are being cheated out of some of the return on their investment. This is true also about the condition of the roof and electrical infrastructure. We have seen the contracts offered by some of our competition. They get the job by low-balling estimates and then make up the difference by contract “adders.” I believe that at some point a competent professional needs to get out of the office and in the field to evaluate each and every job before the contract is offered or the customer suffers. I caution consumers: if no one looked carefully at your roof and your electrical then you are not dealing with a reputable contractor. William Miller PS: The Pathfinder is still a reliable, accurate alternative. If you apply the values on the chart to a model adjusted for pitch, azimuth and local insolation you can get very accurate values for shading. Those who can create a spreadsheet tool will find the results can be tabulated in short order. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Truitt *Sent:* Monday, March 07, 2016 12:30 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? I think the fact that no manufacturer has jumped in to fill the void left by the SunEye is an indicator that remote shade analysis tools like Aurora (my favorite) are the likely path forward for the industry. These tools can typically make it possible to generate a full rendering and shade analysis in less than 15 minutes for the experienced user, without ever having to get on a roof. NREL did some validation studies (here's Aurora's ) and found a few tools to produce results as good or better than the SunEye, which makes sense to me since the analysis is based on an integral over the whole roof surface as opposed to a few point measurements. Of course the "garbage in, garbage out" principle is very applicable. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Hi Peter; My understanding is that the only thing left of Solmetric at Vivint is the PV Analyzer, and though they stated a year ago that they were going to "streamline" the PV sales process so that the site survey could be accomplished on the same day as the sale, I've seen nothing else from them. Very happy that I've kept the heavily-modded Solar Pathfinder that I bought in 1994, with a real tripod adaptor. For quicky site surveys and semi-interested customers, I use an Android smartphone app, which is pretty accurate IF you build a tripod adaptor for the phone. I'm surprised someone hasn't leapt in to claim this market share. Not all of us are big-city no-battery PV installers who can use the new Google tool that estimates tree heights. My class experiments with this were a bust....it only sorta kinda works. Ground truth is the only thing I trust. Maybe I should just start building and marketing my Pathfinder and smartphone tripod adaptors. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5238 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5141 bytes Desc: not available URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Mar 8 14:40:58 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 19:40:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> <56ddd0e2.4d41420a.51f45.ffff953aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <012c8d00669741c7aa10b506db59af6f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Dan, Curious which Android app you are using. My circa 2000 pathfinder came with the (flimsy but lightweight) tripod option and it is needing some work to repair it, so wondering about your real tripod adapter as well - that would make it a lot more robust. The number of times the clients Dog knocked over the pathfinder has beaten it up a bit more than I'd like. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: March-07-16 11:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? Hi Peter; My understanding is that the only thing left of Solmetric at Vivint is the PV Analyzer, and though they stated a year ago that they were going to "streamline" the PV sales process so that the site survey could be accomplished on the same day as the sale, I've seen nothing else from them. Very happy that I've kept the heavily-modded Solar Pathfinder that I bought in 1994, with a real tripod adaptor. For quicky site surveys and semi-interested customers, I use an Android smartphone app, which is pretty accurate IF you build a tripod adaptor for the phone. I'm surprised someone hasn't leapt in to claim this market share. Not all of us are big-city no-battery PV installers who can use the new Google tool that estimates tree heights. My class experiments with this were a bust....it only sorta kinda works. Ground truth is the only thing I trust. Maybe I should just start building and marketing my Pathfinder and smartphone tripod adaptors. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Peter Parrish > wrote: Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 20:25:17 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:25:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? In-Reply-To: <012c8d00669741c7aa10b506db59af6f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <3b1999b8ea2b5308bff6000c21f0c29d@mail.gmail.com> <20160302185338.CFA3B102E2@che.dreamhost.com> <037001d174b9$24edefc0$6ec9cf40$@sbcglobal.net> <56D84D3A.2090801@entech-engineering.com> <00ca01d1758c$e1b0d9f0$a5128dd0$@sbcglobal.net> <56ddd0e2.4d41420a.51f45.ffff953aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <012c8d00669741c7aa10b506db59af6f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: Hi Kevin - We're using the Solar Shading app by Comoving Magnetics. It's $18. It's pretty accurate, once you learn how hold and tilt the phone. A tripod adaptor will fix that by keeping tilt accurate, I'm looking for something commercial to start with. As for the Pathfinder tripod adaptor -- I'll take a photo of it when I get back to the office later this week, and i might just put together a couple samples made with thick plastic. The prototype is plywood. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > > Curious which Android app you are using. > > > > My circa 2000 pathfinder came with the (flimsy but lightweight) tripod > option and it is needing some work to repair it, so wondering about your > real tripod adapter as well - that would make it a lot more robust. The > number of times the clients Dog knocked over the pathfinder has beaten it > up a bit more than I'd like. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* March-07-16 11:56 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210? > > > > Hi Peter; > > My understanding is that the only thing left of Solmetric at Vivint is the > PV Analyzer, and though they stated a year ago that they were going to > "streamline" the PV sales process so that the site survey could be > accomplished on the same day as the sale, I've seen nothing else from them. > > Very happy that I've kept the heavily-modded Solar Pathfinder that I > bought in 1994, with a real tripod adaptor. > > For quicky site surveys and semi-interested customers, I use an Android > smartphone app, which is pretty accurate IF you build a tripod adaptor for > the phone. > > I'm surprised someone hasn't leapt in to claim this market share. Not all > of us are big-city no-battery PV installers who can use the new Google tool > that estimates tree heights. My class experiments with this were a > bust....it only sorta kinda works. > > Ground truth is the only thing I trust. Maybe I should just start building > and marketing my Pathfinder and smartphone tripod adaptors. > > > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Peter Parrish < > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > > Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked > away on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find? > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Wed Mar 9 18:03:25 2016 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 18:03:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pathfinder Any Camera Tripod or a bean bag ! Message-ID: The Pathfinder can be adapted to a circular board fitted with a female adapter for a tripod camera screw on the underneath side . All tripod use the same male screw for expensive or cheap tripods for cameras .Put three washers over the three tripod holes and three screws can hold the PathFinder to a circular board cut to fit , a 5/8 " or 3/4" plywood board cut to fit inside and a hole drilled in the middle of the board for a female camera threaded adapter to be glued in for the tripod screw . I am lazy and often just put a small neck pad or small bean bag on top of a tripod or lay it on the roof . The Pathfinder people are great , you can afford to buy many a a cheap price as a professional for your crews . They also have the only program for for Solar Thermal and constantly update their programs for free . You can use any camera . They easily replace Pathfinder parts . A friend of mind has invented a gyroscope type mount that keeps a Samung or IPhone level for taking pictures as you are walking with two small gyro gimbals that the cell phones attach to . GatorTom Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 21:07:12 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 19:07:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? Message-ID: I have an interesting question I haven't run into before, using existing equipment, some in place, some just waiting for an install. Has anyone here ever done an MPPT PV-direct install to DC air heaters? Advanced Energy used to have a PV-direct MPPT water heating controller, but the residential division of their company no longer exists. We are looking at 1200-1500 watts of PV. How would one program a Midnite Classic (for example) to most efficiently connect PV to DC heating elements without a battery bank/diversion load setup, whether for water or air? This one's new to me; I've never tried PV direct heating before. Thanks in advance for any input. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Mar 9 21:37:53 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 19:37:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E0DE01.2090404@solarray.com> I believe you would still need a battery for the Classic to work properly. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/9/2016 7:07 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > I have an interesting question I haven't run into before, using > existing equipment, some in place, some just waiting for an install. > Has anyone here ever done an MPPT PV-direct install to DC air heaters? > > Advanced Energy used to have a PV-direct MPPT water heating > controller, but the residential division of their company no longer > exists. We are looking at 1200-1500 watts of PV. > > How would one program a Midnite Classic (for example) to most > efficiently connect PV to DC heating elements without a battery > bank/diversion load setup, whether for water or air? > > This one's new to me; I've never tried PV direct heating before. > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 9 22:40:38 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 21:40:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> Dan, I think it is Gree that has a PV direct mini-split heat pump for both heating and air conditioning. It may have run on two 250 watt modules. When in non-PV mode, I believe the AC is rectified to DC and run through an inverter. And there are now a few others as well….possibly Fujitsu. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 8:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? I have an interesting question I haven't run into before, using existing equipment, some in place, some just waiting for an install. Has anyone here ever done an MPPT PV-direct install to DC air heaters? Advanced Energy used to have a PV-direct MPPT water heating controller, but the residential division of their company no longer exists. We are looking at 1200-1500 watts of PV. How would one program a Midnite Classic (for example) to most efficiently connect PV to DC heating elements without a battery bank/diversion load setup, whether for water or air? This one's new to me; I've never tried PV direct heating before. Thanks in advance for any input. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Thu Mar 10 05:01:02 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 04:01:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E145DE.8050500@charter.net> Dan, Isn't that what the wind guys do and call it a dump load? Best, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 3/9/2016 8:07 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > I have an interesting question I haven't run into before, using > existing equipment, some in place, some just waiting for an install. > Has anyone here ever done an MPPT PV-direct install to DC air heaters? > > Advanced Energy used to have a PV-direct MPPT water heating > controller, but the residential division of their company no longer > exists. We are looking at 1200-1500 watts of PV. > > How would one program a Midnite Classic (for example) to most > efficiently connect PV to DC heating elements without a battery > bank/diversion load setup, whether for water or air? > > This one's new to me; I've never tried PV direct heating before. > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Thu Mar 10 05:11:58 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 04:11:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? In-Reply-To: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> Dan & Bill, If mini-split equipment is what you are using/considering you might want to look further at www.hotspotenergy.com John Williams who runs the place was at the AHR show in Orlando earlier this year and has DC and solar HVAC equipment. Hope it helps, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 3/9/2016 9:40 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > > Dan, I think it is Gree that has a PV direct mini-split heat pump for > both heating and air conditioning. It may have run on two 250 watt > modules. When in non-PV mode, I believe the AC is rectified to DC and > run through an inverter. And there are now a few others as > well….possibly Fujitsu. > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 09, 2016 8:07 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? > > I have an interesting question I haven't run into before, using > existing equipment, some in place, some just waiting for an install. > > Has anyone here ever done an MPPT PV-direct install to DC air heaters? > > Advanced Energy used to have a PV-direct MPPT water heating > controller, but the residential division of their company no longer > exists. We are looking at 1200-1500 watts of PV. > > How would one program a Midnite Classic (for example) to most > efficiently connect PV to DC heating elements without a battery > bank/diversion load setup, whether for water or air? > > This one's new to me; I've never tried PV direct heating before. > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Mar 10 15:45:20 2016 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:45:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? In-Reply-To: <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> Message-ID: <184667.24104.bm@smtp112.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 10 23:34:41 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:34:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? In-Reply-To: <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> Message-ID: <000301d17b4f$6731ba00$35952e00$@sbcglobal.net> Thanks, Bill. Do you have any fairly close connection to anyone who has used HotSpot's equipment, tech support etc? I've put in perhaps a dozen Fujitsu minisplit's as an alternative to trying to find small efficient furnaces.and mostly in the early installs mistakes were made by HVAC techs who didn't want to take the time to make sure there were no refrigerant leaks under very high pressure. They've otherwise been very good. Tech support.mixed bag. The heat recovery focus of HotSpot looks very promising. Again thanks Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? Dan & Bill, If mini-split equipment is what you are using/considering you might want to look further at www.hotspotenergy.com John Williams who runs the place was at the AHR show in Orlando earlier this year and has DC and solar HVAC equipment. Hope it helps, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 3/9/2016 9:40 PM, William Dorsett wrote: Dan, I think it is Gree that has a PV direct mini-split heat pump for both heating and air conditioning. It may have run on two 250 watt modules. When in non-PV mode, I believe the AC is rectified to DC and run through an inverter. And there are now a few others as well..possibly Fujitsu. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 8:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? I have an interesting question I haven't run into before, using existing equipment, some in place, some just waiting for an install. Has anyone here ever done an MPPT PV-direct install to DC air heaters? Advanced Energy used to have a PV-direct MPPT water heating controller, but the residential division of their company no longer exists. We are looking at 1200-1500 watts of PV. How would one program a Midnite Classic (for example) to most efficiently connect PV to DC heating elements without a battery bank/diversion load setup, whether for water or air? This one's new to me; I've never tried PV direct heating before. Thanks in advance for any input. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified InstructorT for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education ProvidersT 970.672.4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email is safe. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Fri Mar 11 07:21:50 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:21:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? In-Reply-To: <000301d17b4f$6731ba00$35952e00$@sbcglobal.net> References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> <000301d17b4f$6731ba00$35952e00$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56E2B85E.3040505@charter.net> Bill, I wish I had first hand experience with these folks. What I can comment on is that they were IMHO the premier technically competent exhibitor pitching solar HVAC at the AHR show. Several exhibitors shared that they had a $10K commitment to exhibit (for just the base 10 x 10 foot booth) and yet some folks didn't know heat transfer basics. I can imagine that the inadequate installation of the mini-splits resulting in unsatisfactory operation doesn't surprise you. The well designed, well manufactured equipment is still dependent upon proper installation to deliver the advertised capability. Even here in Missouri, an EPA certification is theoretically required to purchase refrigerant. Unfortunately, just like the solar industry, certification is no guarantee of quality workmanship. There are similar groups to the RE-wrenches in many other technical areas. The first that comes to mind in the HVAC arena is HeatingHelp.com Undoubtedly there has already been discussion of the mini-split products as they have been actively promoted for well over three years and have justifiably been very well received by consumers. The mini-split promotes the concept of modular HVAC something our non-oil subsidized neighbor nations have been onboard for some time already. I cannot agree with you more about the tech support offered by the HVAC _manufacturers_. What helps is to understand how their supply chain, etc. is structured. In the example of International Comfort Products (ICP) they manufacturer quite similar products for no less than nine "quality brand name private label products" (oftentimes distinguished only by the label and perhaps a paint stripe). The distributor is the front line tech support. When the distributor cannot solve the problem, a three way conference call is requested with the manufacturer, which is hopefully returned the same day. Not exactly timely support for the field tech. Makes the solar tech support model look like perfection. I don't know that other HVAC manufacturers (Nortec, Johnson Controls, Trane, Goodman, et.al.) work the tech support any differently. Best, please keep us informed of your results, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 3/10/2016 10:34 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > > Thanks, Bill. Do you have any fairly close connection to anyone who > has used HotSpot’s equipment, tech support etc? I’ve put in perhaps a > dozen Fujitsu minisplit’s as an alternative to trying to find small > efficient furnaces…and mostly in the early installs mistakes were made > by HVAC techs who didn’t want to take the time to make sure there were > no refrigerant leaks under very high pressure. They’ve otherwise been > very good. Tech support…mixed bag. > > The heat recovery focus of HotSpot looks very promising. > > Again thanks > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Bill Loesch > *Sent:* Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? > > Dan & Bill, > If mini-split equipment is what you are using/considering you might > want to look further at > > www.hotspotenergy.com > > John Williams who runs the place was at the AHR show in Orlando > earlier this year and has DC and solar HVAC equipment. > Hope it helps, > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > On 3/9/2016 9:40 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > > Dan, I think it is Gree that has a PV direct mini-split heat pump > for both heating and air conditioning. It may have run on two 250 > watt modules. When in non-PV mode, I believe the AC is rectified > to DC and run through an inverter. And there are now a few others > as well….possibly Fujitsu. > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 09, 2016 8:07 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? > > I have an interesting question I haven't run into before, using > existing equipment, some in place, some just waiting for an install. > > Has anyone here ever done an MPPT PV-direct install to DC air > heaters? > > Advanced Energy used to have a PV-direct MPPT water heating > controller, but the residential division of their company no > longer exists. We are looking at 1200-1500 watts of PV. > > How would one program a Midnite Classic (for example) to most > efficiently connect PV to DC heating elements without a battery > bank/diversion load setup, whether for water or air? > > This one's new to me; I've never tried PV direct heating before. > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > This email is safe. www.avast.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 11 09:16:38 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 08:16:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? In-Reply-To: <56E2B85E.3040505@charter.net> References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> <000301d17b4f$6731ba00$35952e00$@sbcglobal.net> <56E2B85E.3040505@charter.net> Message-ID: <003a01d17ba0$a151c710$e3f55530$@sbcglobal.net> Bill, I'll try googling HotSpot reviews and as you suggest, try a thread on HeatingHelp.com. The promise of a SEER of 65 is nearly double the best of the Fujitsu (33) and really shouldn't be that unexpected. When building really tight small houses, it's hard to find more conventional HVAC systems small enough. After a little checking, I may well try one and offer the list a first hand account. Thanks. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 6:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? Bill, I wish I had first hand experience with these folks. What I can comment on is that they were IMHO the premier technically competent exhibitor pitching solar HVAC at the AHR show. Several exhibitors shared that they had a $10K commitment to exhibit (for just the base 10 x 10 foot booth) and yet some folks didn't know heat transfer basics. I can imagine that the inadequate installation of the mini-splits resulting in unsatisfactory operation doesn't surprise you. The well designed, well manufactured equipment is still dependent upon proper installation to deliver the advertised capability. Even here in Missouri, an EPA certification is theoretically required to purchase refrigerant. Unfortunately, just like the solar industry, certification is no guarantee of quality workmanship. There are similar groups to the RE-wrenches in many other technical areas. The first that comes to mind in the HVAC arena is HeatingHelp.com Undoubtedly there has already been discussion of the mini-split products as they have been actively promoted for well over three years and have justifiably been very well received by consumers. The mini-split promotes the concept of modular HVAC something our non-oil subsidized neighbor nations have been onboard for some time already. I cannot agree with you more about the tech support offered by the HVAC manufacturers. What helps is to understand how their supply chain, etc. is structured. In the example of International Comfort Products (ICP) they manufacturer quite similar products for no less than nine "quality brand name private label products" (oftentimes distinguished only by the label and perhaps a paint stripe). The distributor is the front line tech support. When the distributor cannot solve the problem, a three way conference call is requested with the manufacturer, which is hopefully returned the same day. Not exactly timely support for the field tech. Makes the solar tech support model look like perfection. I don't know that other HVAC manufacturers (Nortec, Johnson Controls, Trane, Goodman, et.al.) work the tech support any differently. Best, please keep us informed of your results, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 3/10/2016 10:34 PM, William Dorsett wrote: Thanks, Bill. Do you have any fairly close connection to anyone who has used HotSpot's equipment, tech support etc? I've put in perhaps a dozen Fujitsu minisplit's as an alternative to trying to find small efficient furnaces.and mostly in the early installs mistakes were made by HVAC techs who didn't want to take the time to make sure there were no refrigerant leaks under very high pressure. They've otherwise been very good. Tech support.mixed bag. The heat recovery focus of HotSpot looks very promising. Again thanks Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? Dan & Bill, If mini-split equipment is what you are using/considering you might want to look further at www.hotspotenergy.com John Williams who runs the place was at the AHR show in Orlando earlier this year and has DC and solar HVAC equipment. Hope it helps, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 3/9/2016 9:40 PM, William Dorsett wrote: Dan, I think it is Gree that has a PV direct mini-split heat pump for both heating and air conditioning. It may have run on two 250 watt modules. When in non-PV mode, I believe the AC is rectified to DC and run through an inverter. And there are now a few others as well..possibly Fujitsu. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 8:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct air heating? I have an interesting question I haven't run into before, using existing equipment, some in place, some just waiting for an install. Has anyone here ever done an MPPT PV-direct install to DC air heaters? Advanced Energy used to have a PV-direct MPPT water heating controller, but the residential division of their company no longer exists. We are looking at 1200-1500 watts of PV. How would one program a Midnite Classic (for example) to most efficiently connect PV to DC heating elements without a battery bank/diversion load setup, whether for water or air? This one's new to me; I've never tried PV direct heating before. Thanks in advance for any input. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified InstructorT for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education ProvidersT 970.672.4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email is safe. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org 0 viruses found. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Mar 11 11:39:25 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 11:39:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HIQ Inverter Experience? In-Reply-To: <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> Message-ID: <56E2F4BD.5030400@entech-engineering.com> We are designing a 480Vac, 3 phase system for a school on an island. The system will be outdoors, about 1/2 from the ocean shore. Corrosion via salt is a real problem. We submitted some pictures to Solar Pro for an article they are writing. HIQ are NEMA 6. I have no experience with them, and was wondering if anyone did. Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 12:29:20 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick Shortell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:29:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HIQ Inverter Experience? In-Reply-To: <56E2F4BD.5030400@entech-engineering.com> References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> <56E2F4BD.5030400@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, My experience with microinverters rated NEMA 6 in a salt environment was an absolute disaster. I have a 50KW ground mount, Enphase M210's, Sanyo 220's and within three years more than half failed. The system is approx a 1/2 mile from the Ocean and about 300 Yards from a bay and is also on an island. We removed the microinverters and installed SMA string inverters. We have similiar installations in the immediate area and the SMA product has held up for 12 years. My microinverter experiment ended badly and as an electrician for over thirty years, the enphase product was the only product I ever saw with a NEMA 6 rating. My Opinion, you cant beat an SMA product in this environment. Pat On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > We are designing a 480Vac, 3 phase system for a school on an island. The > system will be outdoors, about 1/2 from the ocean shore. Corrosion via salt > is a real problem. We submitted some pictures to Solar Pro for an article > they are writing. HIQ are NEMA 6. I have no experience with them, and was > wondering if anyone did. Thank you, Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 12:58:30 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 09:58:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HIQ Inverter Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> <56E2F4BD.5030400@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <7EFE247B-3E56-4B36-B501-C9F2ACBBBF01@gmail.com> Hi Patrick I would add that the NEMA 6 rating is for dust/water intrusion, not corrosion resistance. I don’t know what the metallurgy of the Enphase was/is or the HIQ. But I would not make the assumption that whats bad/good for one is the same for any other. jay Peltz power > On Mar 11, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Patrick Shortell wrote: > > Hi Chris, > My experience with microinverters rated NEMA 6 in a salt environment was an absolute disaster. I have a 50KW ground mount, Enphase M210's, Sanyo 220's and within three years more than half failed. > The system is approx a 1/2 mile from the Ocean and about 300 Yards from a bay and is also on an island. > We removed the microinverters and installed SMA string inverters. > We have similiar installations in the immediate area and the SMA product has held up for 12 years. > My microinverter experiment ended badly and as an electrician for over thirty years, the enphase product was the only product I ever saw with a NEMA 6 rating. > My Opinion, you cant beat an SMA product in this environment. > Pat > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Christopher Warfel > wrote: > We are designing a 480Vac, 3 phase system for a school on an island. The system will be outdoors, about 1/2 from the ocean shore. Corrosion via salt is a real problem. We submitted some pictures to Solar Pro for an article they are writing. HIQ are NEMA 6. I have no experience with them, and was wondering if anyone did. Thank you, Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Patrick A. Shortell > Licensed Master Electrician > Certified Solar Installer > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > cell: 516-477-0221 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 15:19:15 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick Shortell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:19:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HIQ Inverter Experience? In-Reply-To: <7EFE247B-3E56-4B36-B501-C9F2ACBBBF01@gmail.com> References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> <56E2F4BD.5030400@entech-engineering.com> <7EFE247B-3E56-4B36-B501-C9F2ACBBBF01@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, I did cut open one of the inverters. The electronics are potted but I noticed that there were studs that appeared riveted to the external casing which appeared to be aluminum. It appeared that the saltwater had entered along this stud and eventually made its way to the circuit board. I assume that the stud performed a grounding function since that model inverter is externally grounded. I could see the green evidence where the stud entered the potting that salt water had indeed passed through the potting and encountered some copper. I think Enphase has gone with a ground wire in the cabling nowadays. Maybe a new design has eliminated that route to the board. Pat On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 12:58 PM, jay wrote: > Hi Patrick > > I would add that the NEMA 6 rating is for dust/water intrusion, not > corrosion resistance. > > I don’t know what the metallurgy of the Enphase was/is or the HIQ. > But I would not make the assumption that whats bad/good for one is the > same for any other. > > jay > > Peltz power > > > On Mar 11, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Patrick Shortell > wrote: > > Hi Chris, > My experience with microinverters rated NEMA 6 in a salt environment was > an absolute disaster. I have a 50KW ground mount, Enphase M210's, Sanyo > 220's and within three years more than half failed. > The system is approx a 1/2 mile from the Ocean and about 300 Yards from a > bay and is also on an island. > We removed the microinverters and installed SMA string inverters. > We have similiar installations in the immediate area and the SMA product > has held up for 12 years. > My microinverter experiment ended badly and as an electrician for over > thirty years, the enphase product was the only product I ever saw with a > NEMA 6 rating. > My Opinion, you cant beat an SMA product in this environment. > Pat > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> We are designing a 480Vac, 3 phase system for a school on an island. The >> system will be outdoors, about 1/2 from the ocean shore. Corrosion via salt >> is a real problem. We submitted some pictures to Solar Pro for an article >> they are writing. HIQ are NEMA 6. I have no experience with them, and was >> wondering if anyone did. Thank you, Chris >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, President >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Patrick A. Shortell > *Licensed Master Electrician* > *Certified Solar Installer* > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > cell: 516-477-0221 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Fri Mar 11 22:49:49 2016 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 22:49:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Three Poly or mono 240 to 250 watt modules needed Message-ID: <61084B3D-7818-4032-8521-733A794AF2DB@ecs-solar.com> A close friend is reroofing has a need for three poly modules to add to a array of 10 Sun Tech 240 WHE PLUTO 240 watt 36.9 volts 8.5 amp modules , they can be 240 to 250 watts as long as amperage is 8.5 amps or higher . GatorTom Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Mar 14 15:36:37 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 14:36:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire locator Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Do any of you use a underground wire locating device? If so, can you recommend a brand? I've seen them for $50 and $2,500. Reply off list, please. Thanks, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Mon Mar 14 16:17:19 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 14:17:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HIQ Inverter Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> <56E2F4BD.5030400@entech-engineering.com> <7EFE247B-3E56-4B36-B501-C9F2ACBBBF01@gmail.com> Message-ID: We were a test site for HiQ inverters at our warehouse in Redway ca. long way from the ocean, but plenty of rain. We had to replace the "Balancers" three times due to water damage before we switched to a string inverter. even at free HiQ wasn't worth the hassle. Maybe they have fixed the issues but I would not put them in any sort of challenging env. Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: > Hi Jay, > I did cut open one of the inverters. > The electronics are potted but I noticed that there were studs that > appeared riveted to the external casing which appeared to be aluminum. It > appeared that the saltwater had entered along this stud and eventually made > its way to the circuit board. I assume that the stud performed a grounding > function since that model inverter is externally grounded. > I could see the green evidence where the stud entered the potting that > salt water had indeed passed through the potting and encountered some > copper. I think Enphase has gone with a ground wire in the cabling > nowadays. Maybe a new design has eliminated that route to the board. > Pat > > > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 12:58 PM, jay wrote: > >> Hi Patrick >> >> I would add that the NEMA 6 rating is for dust/water intrusion, not >> corrosion resistance. >> >> I don’t know what the metallurgy of the Enphase was/is or the HIQ. >> But I would not make the assumption that whats bad/good for one is the >> same for any other. >> >> jay >> >> Peltz power >> >> >> On Mar 11, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Patrick Shortell >> wrote: >> >> Hi Chris, >> My experience with microinverters rated NEMA 6 in a salt environment was >> an absolute disaster. I have a 50KW ground mount, Enphase M210's, Sanyo >> 220's and within three years more than half failed. >> The system is approx a 1/2 mile from the Ocean and about 300 Yards from a >> bay and is also on an island. >> We removed the microinverters and installed SMA string inverters. >> We have similiar installations in the immediate area and the SMA product >> has held up for 12 years. >> My microinverter experiment ended badly and as an electrician for over >> thirty years, the enphase product was the only product I ever saw with a >> NEMA 6 rating. >> My Opinion, you cant beat an SMA product in this environment. >> Pat >> >> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Christopher Warfel < >> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: >> >>> We are designing a 480Vac, 3 phase system for a school on an island. The >>> system will be outdoors, about 1/2 from the ocean shore. Corrosion via salt >>> is a real problem. We submitted some pictures to Solar Pro for an article >>> they are writing. HIQ are NEMA 6. I have no experience with them, and was >>> wondering if anyone did. Thank you, Chris >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel, President >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> 401-466-8978 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Patrick A. Shortell >> *Licensed Master Electrician* >> *Certified Solar Installer* >> 71 Oregon Street >> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >> cell: 516-477-0221 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Patrick A. Shortell > *Licensed Master Electrician* > *Certified Solar Installer* > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > cell: 516-477-0221 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Mar 14 17:26:58 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 15:26:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silicone on Module Glass Message-ID: Wrenches, I received some modules lately (and it has happened in the past) that have some degree of silicon on the front glass. It is usually either some spatter or a smear of sorts. These are from a distributor warehouse and in most cases i've seen the modules removed directly from the manufacturers factory wrapped pallet. Aside from the fact that they should be thoroughly inspected prior to being "accepted"....and aside from the fact that they should not leave the factory in that condition.... points that i'm sure will be discussed.... for now i am writing to ask about dealing with "silicone on module glass" Rubbing it off with a gloved finger works, but is time consuming when there are several spatters, and it leaves a "rubbed/smeared/discoloured " mark on the glass. I'm curious if the rubbed/discoloured mark can negatively affect performance (doesn't seem likely) or have other adverse affects? It was suggested, indirectly by the mfgr, (mfgr told distributor, distributor told me) to use varsol (paint thinner) to "break down the silicone so it comes off easier". I'm not sure how i feel about that since it opens a possible risk of excess paint thinner getting to the silicone along the frame and breaking down the silicone that is "weather sealing" the module. Have you ever had modules coming directly out of manufacturer packaging that has silicone on the front glass??? Have you requested/received any sort of reply from the manufacturer about the cause/affect of such silicone and how to properly remove it? Would love to hear comments. Benn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Mar 14 19:16:33 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 16:16:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silicone on Module Glass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E74651.50009@psln.com> Benn, I would think a phone call or email (to get it in "writing") from the manufacturer would be the safest route to take. I know PV glass is no standard issue product and must vary some from manu to manu...composition, thickness, texture (or not), coatings? So I guess I'm more concerned about the affect the paint thinner may have on the glass, it's surface, a coating?... than its affect for several seconds it might be in contact with the glass/frame sealant. I'll also bet a dollar that the sealant is much better than anything we can get. $.02 Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 3/14/2016 2:26 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Wrenches, > I received some modules lately (and it has happened in the past) that > have some degree of silicon on the front glass. It is usually either > some spatter or a smear of sorts. > These are from a distributor warehouse and in most cases i've seen the > modules removed directly from the manufacturers factory wrapped pallet. > > Aside from the fact that they should be thoroughly inspected prior to > being "accepted"....and aside from the fact that they should not leave > the factory in that condition.... points that i'm sure will be > discussed.... for now i am writing to ask about dealing with "silicone > on module glass" > > Rubbing it off with a gloved finger works, but is time consuming when > there are several spatters, and it leaves a > "rubbed/smeared/discoloured " mark on the glass. > I'm curious if the rubbed/discoloured mark can negatively affect > performance (doesn't seem likely) or have other adverse affects? > > It was suggested, indirectly by the mfgr, (mfgr told distributor, > distributor told me) to use varsol (paint thinner) to "break down the > silicone so it comes off easier". > I'm not sure how i feel about that since it opens a possible risk of > excess paint thinner getting to the silicone along the frame and > breaking down the silicone that is "weather sealing" the module. > > Have you ever had modules coming directly out of manufacturer > packaging that has silicone on the front glass??? > Have you requested/received any sort of reply from the manufacturer > about the cause/affect of such silicone and how to properly remove it? > > Would love to hear comments. > > Benn > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 16:59:01 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 16:59:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire locator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have a Schonstedt unit, works very well for electrical services. There has to be current in the cable to see it. Otherwise you can find data cables and dead electrical cables by injecting a signal using the signal generator, either by induction or direct connection. It can find a service very accurately and give you the depth. However, it takes some practice as you can get fooled by stray currents and water pipes. It's nicely made and robust. Price is a bit more than you were expecting, if memory serves me right. You can rent for one-offs. www.schonstedt.com On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Do any of you use a underground wire locating device? If so, can you > recommend a brand? I've seen them for $50 and $2,500. Reply off list, > please. > > Thanks, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Mar 15 09:39:14 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 09:39:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire locator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160315133919.5108AAE005@homiemail-a91.g.dreamhost.com> I've rented pipe and cable locaters at tool rentals before. They can be tricky, but can also give good results. At 04:59 PM 3/14/2016, you wrote: >We have a Schonstedt unit, works very well for >electrical services. There has to be current in >the cable to see it. Otherwise you can find data >cables and dead electrical cables by injecting a >signal using the signal generator, either by induction or direct connection. >It can find a service very accurately and give >you the depth. However, it takes some practice >as you can get fooled by stray currents and >water pipes. It's nicely made and robust. >Price is a bit more than you were expecting, if >memory serves me right. You can rent for one-offs. > > www.schonstedt.com > >On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Kristopher >Schmid <solman at legacysolar.com> wrote: >Hi Wrenches, > >Do any of you use a underground wire locating >device? If so, can you recommend a >brand? I've seen them for $50 and $2,500. Reply off list, please. > >Thanks, >Kris > >-- >Shine On! > >Kris Schmid >Legacy Solar, LLC >864 Clam Falls Trail >Frederic, WI 54837 >www.legacysolar.com >715-653-4295 >NABCEP Certified PV Installer >Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >BSEE > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > >-- >Chris Mason >NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >Solar Design Engineer >Generac Generators Industrial technician > >www.cometsolar.com >264.235.5670 >869.662.5670 >Skype: netconcepts >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 15 12:01:53 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:01:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Message-ID: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in 690.12 are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that rapid shutdown applies. My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with the term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse, so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries though. Thanks, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 15 13:10:51 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:10:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> Message-ID: <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> Ray, I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in the 2014 NEC. The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially module-level shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014 NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this requirement. In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads, that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a minute that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV industry so I think I know what the intent was. It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match the requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the 2014 NEC. The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have their own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. Bill. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in 690.12 are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that rapid shutdown applies. My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with the term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse, so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries though. Thanks, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From pshortell6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 15:48:05 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick Shortell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:48:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Dear List, Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. There are simple ways to work around these issues. I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his approval First. What would I do in my own house? What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a hoseline into my basement. My two cents Pat On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, wrote: > Ray, > > I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit is > a > self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to > develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY > circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in > the 2014 NEC. > > The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and > the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially > module-level > shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved > since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was > developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014 > NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this > requirement. > > In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads, > that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own > articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a > minute > that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this > way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV > industry so I think I know what the intent was. > > It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep > battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match the > requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the > 2014 NEC. > > The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot > backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have their > own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. > > Bill. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still > being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in > 690.12 > are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals > with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single > article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both > Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that > rapid > shutdown applies. > My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system > that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown > at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into > the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with > the > term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output > circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' > defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. > Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their > remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the > batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply > with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. > We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse, > so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries > though. > > Thanks, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 15 16:56:49 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 14:56:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56E87711.20702@solarray.com> Hi Bill; First, I didn't intend to "shoot the messenger". I have appreciated your many contributions to the PV industry, and enjoyed your education courses over the years. Thank You. However, 'PV system circuit' is not 'self defined' as you stated. By that same interpretation, a single GT system could then cause an entire city to fall under the requirements of rapid disconnect, because a portion of everyone's power would be coming from PV. Obviously, we have to draw a line somewhere sensible just where the photovoltaic circuit stops and the other circuits start. A modern off grid power system actually consists of numerous circuits each subject to its own rules, wire and breaker sizing, etc. A reasonable interpretation is thus: if you remove the PV from the system, the remaining components are not part of the 'PV system circuit'. We can all agree that an inverter generator system with out PV is not subject to 690, but 705. Adding a single PV module should not suddenly change the requirements for every other circuit in the house. Disconnect the PV module in compliance with 690.12, and the rest of the system should no longer be considered part of the PV Circuit. 690.12 should accomplish the same result as previous, slower methods to deenergize a PV array (blanket over the array, or wait till the sun goes down) Our design does the same in an instant: push the Birdhouse button and all Photovoltaic power beyond the array is off, just like we turned the sun itself off. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/15/2016 11:10 AM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Ray, > > I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a > self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to > develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY > circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in > the 2014 NEC. > > The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and > the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially module-level > shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved > since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was > developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014 > NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this > requirement. > > In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads, > that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own > articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a minute > that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this > way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV > industry so I think I know what the intent was. > > It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep > battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match the > requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the > 2014 NEC. > > The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot > backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have their > own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. > > Bill. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still > being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in 690.12 > are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals > with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single > article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both > Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that rapid > shutdown applies. > My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system > that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown > at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into > the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with the > term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output > circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' > defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. > Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their > remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the > batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply > with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. > We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse, > so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries > though. > > Thanks, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Mar 15 16:57:48 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 13:57:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I thought this idea (attached) was a simple solution for array and battery rapid shutdown using a Classic controller and solenoids. The PV solenoids are 350 amp continuous @ 700 Vdc, and 400A @ 48 volts for the battery. Cost is about $120 each. Midnite told me than plan to implement the arc fault relay control. A simple SPST switch in series with the 12 volt Aux output will allow shutdown. Add a fire alarm output relay for auto-shutdown in case of fire. Seems like a simple, cost effective way to me. Any comments Ray, Pete, Bill? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 15, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: Dear List, Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. There are simple ways to work around these issues. I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his approval First. What would I do in my own house? What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a hoseline into my basement. My two cents Pat On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, > wrote: Ray, I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in the 2014 NEC. The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially module-level shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014 NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this requirement. In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads, that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a minute that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV industry so I think I know what the intent was. It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match the requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the 2014 NEC. The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have their own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. Bill. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in 690.12 are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that rapid shutdown applies. My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with the term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse, so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries though. Thanks, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-09-24 at 6.05.32 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 38355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 15 17:16:45 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:16:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56E87BBD.9000700@solarray.com> So Pat, you stated "/There are simple ways to work around these issues/". Actually, the major off grid inverter manus do not have a solution for this ( Magnum, Outback, Exeltech, Schneider, SMA) Can you show us an example of a UL listed system that has multiple inverters (over 8 kW cont.), with rapid disconnects within 5 ft? I'm really looking for actual solutions here folks, and I haven't seen a single system ever built, much less even a simple wiring diagram that would comply with this new requirement. (/690.12(5) Equipment that performs the rapid shutdown shall be listed and identified/) Also, for every improvement comes a whole new set of problems. Your "/What would I do in my own house?/" is an excellent point. Personally, I would not want the neighbor's kids to be able to shut off my refrigerator or grandma's breathing machine with the touch of an outside accessible, unlockable button. I've been cobbling together code compliant systems for 2 decades, so yes, I'm sure I could scavenge relays from the EV world to do this. But the days of inventing custom (non UL) solutions to meet new requirements should be over. If this is to be a national requirement, the industry should be mature enough to offer multiple solutions for code compliance. I'm all for improving safety, but it needs to be done as an industry: together, incrementally. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/15/2016 1:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: > Dear List, > Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be > disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. > We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated > when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). > instead of thinking through real life scenarios. > There are simple ways to work around these issues. > I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his > approval First. > What would I do in my own house? > What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a > hoseline into my basement. > My two cents > Pat > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, > wrote: > > Ray, > > I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system > circuit is a > self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are > going to > develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It > means ANY > circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone > circuits in > the 2014 NEC. > > The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire > service and > the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially > module-level > shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them > involved > since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was > developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In > the 2014 > NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this > requirement. > > In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries > and loads, > that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own > articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think > for a minute > that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it > in this > way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV > industry so I think I know what the intent was. > > It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try > to keep > battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to > match the > requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent > of the > 2014 NEC. > > The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they > still cannot > backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will > have their > own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. > > Bill. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we > are still > being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where > in 690.12 > are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section > that deals > with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single > article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted > both > Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware > that rapid > shutdown applies. > My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery > system > that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid > shutdown > at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar > module into > the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem > lies with the > term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output > circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' > defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. > Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with > their > remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft > from the > batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that > would comply > with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. > We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the > Birdhouse, > so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries > though. > > Thanks, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > Patrick A. Shortell > /Licensed Master Electrician/ > /Certified Solar Installer/ > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > cell: 516-477-0221 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Mar 15 17:19:06 2016 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:19:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56E87C4A.1010909@aprsworld.com> On 3/15/2016 3:57 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > I thought this idea (attached) was a simple solution for array and > battery rapid shutdown using a Classic controller and solenoids. The PV > solenoids are 350 amp continuous @ 700 Vdc, and 400A @ 48 volts for the > battery. Cost is about $120 each. Larry, Any details on these $120 solenoids? Are they latching coil, or will we be burning another 5 to 20 watts per device to keep them closed? I did a quick search of Midnite's site and got no relevant hits with relay, solenoid, or contactor as search terms. Thanks, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 15 17:47:17 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:47:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56E882E5.9010409@solarray.com> All right Larry, that's an actual start to a solution. My comments: 1) We already have had a solution for the array side using a Midnite Birdhouse and Midnite rapid disconnecting combiner box. (The /PV Circuit/ of the "/PV system circuit/" so I wasn't questioning that) 2) Who is the supplier of the 400 amp solenoid, 3) is it UL listed for Rapid disconnect, 4) does it have an approved enclosure? (ie. does the solenoid comes mounted in a UL listed assembly) Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/15/2016 2:57 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > I thought this idea (attached) was a simple solution for array and > battery rapid shutdown using a Classic controller and solenoids. The > PV solenoids are 350 amp continuous @ 700 Vdc, and 400A @ 48 volts for > the battery. Cost is about $120 each. > > Midnite told me than plan to implement the arc fault relay control. A > simple SPST switch in series with the 12 volt Aux output will allow > shutdown. Add a fire alarm output relay for auto-shutdown in case of > fire. Seems like a simple, cost effective way to me. > > Any comments Ray, Pete, Bill? > > > > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Mar 15, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell > wrote: > > Dear List, > Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be > disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. > We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated > when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). > instead of thinking through real life scenarios. > There are simple ways to work around these issues. > I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his > approval First. > What would I do in my own house? > What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a > hoseline into my basement. > My two cents > Pat > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, > wrote: > > Ray, > > I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system > circuit is a > self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are > going to > develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It > means ANY > circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone > circuits in > the 2014 NEC. > > The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire > service and > the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially > module-level > shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them > involved > since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was > developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In > the 2014 > NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this > requirement. > > In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries > and loads, > that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own > articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think > for a minute > that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it > in this > way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV > industry so I think I know what the intent was. > > It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try > to keep > battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to > match the > requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent > of the > 2014 NEC. > > The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they > still cannot > backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will > have their > own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. > > Bill. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we > are still > being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where > in 690.12 > are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section > that deals > with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single > article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted > both > Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware > that rapid > shutdown applies. > My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery > system > that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid > shutdown > at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar > module into > the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem > lies with the > term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output > circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' > defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. > Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with > their > remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft > from the > batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that > would comply > with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. > We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the > Birdhouse, > so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries > though. > > Thanks, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 38355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 17:54:17 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick A. Shortell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:54:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E87BBD.9000700@solarray.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> <56E87BBD.9000700@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1F840C6C-0A50-40E8-887D-D69BF4DF5FA3@gmail.com> Hi Ray Well you got me there I meant no disrespect to you personally. I think as a whole the code making panels do their best to keep up. If I missed some of the particulars Please excuse me. And I guess it would be more useful to offer a workable solution Maybe I've missed some of the details but doesn't mid nite offer a shunt trip breaker as part of their ebox that works with the birdhouse I've used one in the past Is it not ul listed That's all from me Pat Patrick A. Shortell Licensed Master Electrician Certified Solar Installer 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 Www.thesolarstorehouse.com > On Mar 15, 2016, at 5:16 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > So Pat, you stated "There are simple ways to work around these issues". Actually, the major off grid inverter manus do not have a solution for this ( Magnum, Outback, Exeltech, Schneider, SMA) > Can you show us an example of a UL listed system that has multiple inverters (over 8 kW cont.), with rapid disconnects within 5 ft? I'm really looking for actual solutions here folks, and I haven't seen a single system ever built, much less even a simple wiring diagram that would comply with this new requirement. (690.12(5) Equipment that performs the rapid shutdown shall be listed and identified) > > Also, for every improvement comes a whole new set of problems. Your "What would I do in my own house?" is an excellent point. Personally, I would not want the neighbor's kids to be able to shut off my refrigerator or grandma's breathing machine with the touch of an outside accessible, unlockable button. > > I've been cobbling together code compliant systems for 2 decades, so yes, I'm sure I could scavenge relays from the EV world to do this. But the days of inventing custom (non UL) solutions to meet new requirements should be over. If this is to be a national requirement, the industry should be mature enough to offer multiple solutions for code compliance. I'm all for improving safety, but it needs to be done as an industry: together, incrementally. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 3/15/2016 1:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: >> Dear List, >> Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. >> We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. >> There are simple ways to work around these issues. >> I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his approval First. >> What would I do in my own house? >> What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a hoseline into my basement. >> My two cents >> Pat >> >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, wrote: >>> Ray, >>> >>> I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a >>> self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to >>> develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY >>> circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in >>> the 2014 NEC. >>> >>> The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and >>> the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially module-level >>> shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved >>> since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was >>> developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014 >>> NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this >>> requirement. >>> >>> In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads, >>> that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own >>> articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a minute >>> that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this >>> way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV >>> industry so I think I know what the intent was. >>> >>> It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep >>> battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match the >>> requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the >>> 2014 NEC. >>> >>> The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot >>> backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have their >>> own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. >>> >>> Bill. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >>> Behalf Of Ray Walters >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown >>> >>> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: >>> >>> I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still >>> being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in 690.12 >>> are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals >>> with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single >>> article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both >>> Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that rapid >>> shutdown applies. >>> My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system >>> that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown >>> at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into >>> the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with the >>> term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output >>> circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' >>> defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. >>> Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their >>> remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the >>> batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply >>> with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. >>> We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse, >>> so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries >>> though. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -- >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Patrick A. Shortell >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Certified Solar Installer >> 71 Oregon Street >> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >> cell: 516-477-0221 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Mar 15 18:12:42 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:12:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E87C4A.1010909@aprsworld.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> <56E87C4A.1010909@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: <6DF79724-5BE2-4D66-BB60-A2A9664C0808@starlightsolar.com> James, Sorry for the confusion: these are not Midnite parts. These are Gigavac solenoids. They come with high efficiency coils, 2.8 Watts holding for the 48 Vdc, 2.9 Watts for the 800 Vdc. We are using quite a few each month so I buy at 50+ piece volume pricing. see attachments. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 15, 2016, at 2:19 PM, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: On 3/15/2016 3:57 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > I thought this idea (attached) was a simple solution for array and > battery rapid shutdown using a Classic controller and solenoids. The PV > solenoids are 350 amp continuous @ 700 Vdc, and 400A @ 48 volts for the > battery. Cost is about $120 each. Larry, Any details on these $120 solenoids? Are they latching coil, or will we be burning another 5 to 20 watts per device to keep them closed? I did a quick search of Midnite's site and got no relevant hits with relay, solenoid, or contactor as search terms. Thanks, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2016-03-15 at 2.42.20 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 89114 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2016-03-15 at 2.41.37 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 57942 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Mar 15 18:19:08 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:19:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E882E5.9010409@solarray.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> <56E882E5.9010409@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0CE87E52-E1FF-495F-B09A-3952F2B3BF95@starlightsolar.com> This is from the spec sheet: "Hermetically sealed – UL listed: UL1604 for Class I & II, Div 2 and Class III for use in hazardous locations, IP67 for temporary water immersion for 30 min, IP69K for perssure washing, SAE J1171 - external ignition protection, and ISO8846 for protection against ignition around flammable gasses." No enclosure, just the solenoid as shown: On Mar 15, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Ray Walters wrote: All right Larry, that's an actual start to a solution. My comments: 1) We already have had a solution for the array side using a Midnite Birdhouse and Midnite rapid disconnecting combiner box. (The PV Circuit of the "PV system circuit" so I wasn't questioning that) 2) Who is the supplier of the 400 amp solenoid, 3) is it UL listed for Rapid disconnect, 4) does it have an approved enclosure? (ie. does the solenoid comes mounted in a UL listed assembly) Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/15/2016 2:57 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > I thought this idea (attached) was a simple solution for array and battery rapid shutdown using a Classic controller and solenoids. The PV solenoids are 350 amp continuous @ 700 Vdc, and 400A @ 48 volts for the battery. Cost is about $120 each. > > Midnite told me than plan to implement the arc fault relay control. A simple SPST switch in series with the 12 volt Aux output will allow shutdown. Add a fire alarm output relay for auto-shutdown in case of fire. Seems like a simple, cost effective way to me. > > Any comments Ray, Pete, Bill? > > > > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Mar 15, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: > > Dear List, > Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. > We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. > There are simple ways to work around these issues. > I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his approval First. > What would I do in my own house? > What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a hoseline into my basement. > My two cents > Pat > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, wrote: > Ray, > > I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a > self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to > develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY > circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in > the 2014 NEC. > > The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and > the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially module-level > shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved > since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was > developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014 > NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this > requirement. > > In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads, > that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own > articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a minute > that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this > way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV > industry so I think I know what the intent was. > > It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep > battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match the > requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the > 2014 NEC. > > The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot > backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have their > own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. > > Bill. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still > being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in 690.12 > are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals > with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single > article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both > Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that rapid > shutdown applies. > My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system > that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown > at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into > the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with the > term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output > circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' > defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. > Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their > remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the > batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply > with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. > We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse, > so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries > though. > > Thanks, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2016-03-15 at 3.18.38 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 69963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Mar 15 18:22:38 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:22:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E87BBD.9000700@solarray.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> <56E87BBD.9000700@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56E88B2E.7010806@midnitesolar.com> MidNite's Rapid Shutdown Sustems are UL listed. If you have any questions, please email Ryan at ryan at midnitesolar.com. Ryan said we were actually having a webinar on this subject later this week, too. No solenoids so no night tare loss on the battery side or the PV side. ***** ***** ***** In addition, Robin says... Ray, although there is some risk of your neighbors kids shutting off your refrigerator, we cannot control that. MidNite does make very elegant solutions for your RSS issue. We are UL listed and recently reduced the price of our Birdhouse system. When it comes to battery based shut off systems, we are your solution. Have you installed one of our Birdhouse systems? If not, contact us and we will get you set up. Thanks, Robin Gudgel -James Jefferson Jarvis wrote.... >>>Larry, >>>Any details on these $120 solenoids? Are they latching coil, or will we be burning another 5 to 20 watts per device to keep them closed? >>>I did a quick search of Midnite's site and got no relevant hits with relay, solenoid, or contactor as search terms. >>>Thanks, >>>-James Jefferson Jarvis I find that Google works much better for most web site searches. boB On 3/15/2016 2:16 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > So Pat, you stated "/There are simple ways to work around these > issues/". Actually, the major off grid inverter manus do not have a > solution for this ( Magnum, Outback, Exeltech, Schneider, SMA) > Can you show us an example of a UL listed system that has multiple > inverters (over 8 kW cont.), with rapid disconnects within 5 ft? I'm > really looking for actual solutions here folks, and I haven't seen a > single system ever built, much less even a simple wiring diagram that > would comply with this new requirement. (/690.12(5) Equipment that > performs the rapid shutdown shall be listed and identified/) > > Also, for every improvement comes a whole new set of problems. Your > "/What would I do in my own house?/" is an excellent point. > Personally, I would not want the neighbor's kids to be able to shut > off my refrigerator or grandma's breathing machine with the touch of > an outside accessible, unlockable button. > > I've been cobbling together code compliant systems for 2 decades, so > yes, I'm sure I could scavenge relays from the EV world to do this. > But the days of inventing custom (non UL) solutions to meet new > requirements should be over. If this is to be a national requirement, > the industry should be mature enough to offer multiple solutions for > code compliance. I'm all for improving safety, but it needs to be > done as an industry: together, incrementally. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 3/15/2016 1:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: >> Dear List, >> Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be >> disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. >> We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated >> when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). >> instead of thinking through real life scenarios. >> There are simple ways to work around these issues. >> I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his >> approval First. >> What would I do in my own house? >> What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a >> hoseline into my basement. >> My two cents >> Pat >> >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, > > wrote: >> >> Ray, >> >> I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system >> circuit is a >> self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are >> going to >> develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It >> means ANY >> circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone >> circuits in >> the 2014 NEC. >> >> The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire >> service and >> the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially >> module-level >> shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them >> involved >> since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was >> developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In >> the 2014 >> NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this >> requirement. >> >> In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries >> and loads, >> that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own >> articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think >> for a minute >> that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it >> in this >> way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of >> the PV >> industry so I think I know what the intent was. >> >> It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would >> try to keep >> battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to >> match the >> requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent >> of the >> 2014 NEC. >> >> The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they >> still cannot >> backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will >> have their >> own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. >> >> Bill. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM >> To: RE-wrenches > > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown >> >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: >> >> I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we >> are still >> being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No >> where in 690.12 >> are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section >> that deals >> with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a >> single >> article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have >> contacted both >> Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware >> that rapid >> shutdown applies. >> My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery >> system >> that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any >> rapid shutdown >> at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar >> module into >> the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem >> lies with the >> term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output >> circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system >> circuit' >> defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. >> Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with >> their >> remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft >> from the >> batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that >> would comply >> with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. >> We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the >> Birdhouse, >> so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to >> batteries >> though. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Patrick A. Shortell >> /Licensed Master Electrician/ >> /Certified Solar Installer/ >> 71 Oregon Street >> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >> cell: 516-477-0221 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Mar 15 18:43:29 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:43:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E88B2E.7010806@midnitesolar.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> <56E87BBD.9000700@solarray.com> <56E88B2E.7010806@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <0732b3a9d8f7711b8e586310bcff22f6@mail.gmail.com> As a side note to this conversation, this brings up an advantage of the Tesla Powerwall battery – my understanding is that it will turn off immediately at the Powerwall battery when disconnected at the inverter. This is another nice benefit of having DC-to-DC conversion smarts in the Powerwall. -August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *bob at midnitesolar.com *Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2016 3:23 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown MidNite's Rapid Shutdown Sustems are UL listed. If you have any questions, please email Ryan at ryan at midnitesolar.com. Ryan said we were actually having a webinar on this subject later this week, too. No solenoids so no night tare loss on the battery side or the PV side. ***** ***** ***** In addition, Robin says... Ray, although there is some risk of your neighbors kids shutting off your refrigerator, we cannot control that. MidNite does make very elegant solutions for your RSS issue. We are UL listed and recently reduced the price of our Birdhouse system. When it comes to battery based shut off systems, we are your solution. Have you installed one of our Birdhouse systems? If not, contact us and we will get you set up. Thanks, Robin Gudgel -James Jefferson Jarvis wrote.... >>>Larry, >>>Any details on these $120 solenoids? Are they latching coil, or will we be burning another 5 to 20 watts per device to keep them closed? >>>I did a quick search of Midnite's site and got no relevant hits with relay, solenoid, or contactor as search terms. >>>Thanks, >>>-James Jefferson Jarvis I find that Google works much better for most web site searches. boB On 3/15/2016 2:16 PM, Ray Walters wrote: So Pat, you stated "*There are simple ways to work around these issues*". Actually, the major off grid inverter manus do not have a solution for this ( Magnum, Outback, Exeltech, Schneider, SMA) Can you show us an example of a UL listed system that has multiple inverters (over 8 kW cont.), with rapid disconnects within 5 ft? I'm really looking for actual solutions here folks, and I haven't seen a single system ever built, much less even a simple wiring diagram that would comply with this new requirement. (*690.12(5) Equipment that performs the rapid shutdown shall be listed and identified*) Also, for every improvement comes a whole new set of problems. Your "*What would I do in my own house?*" is an excellent point. Personally, I would not want the neighbor's kids to be able to shut off my refrigerator or grandma's breathing machine with the touch of an outside accessible, unlockable button. I've been cobbling together code compliant systems for 2 decades, so yes, I'm sure I could scavenge relays from the EV world to do this. But the days of inventing custom (non UL) solutions to meet new requirements should be over. If this is to be a national requirement, the industry should be mature enough to offer multiple solutions for code compliance. I'm all for improving safety, but it needs to be done as an industry: together, incrementally. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/15/2016 1:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: Dear List, Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. There are simple ways to work around these issues. I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his approval First. What would I do in my own house? What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a hoseline into my basement. My two cents Pat On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, wrote: Ray, I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in the 2014 NEC. The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially module-level shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014 NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this requirement. In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads, that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a minute that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV industry so I think I know what the intent was. It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match the requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the 2014 NEC. The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have their own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. Bill. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in 690.12 are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that rapid shutdown applies. My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with the term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse, so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries though. Thanks, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 19:45:54 2016 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:45:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I've been promoting the use of the remote on/off terminals that are available in most inverters, which can be connected to the AUX in the Birdhouse. For a very minimum effort and cost, the inverter AC output would be shutdown when the rapid shutdown is activated. I think using the remote on/off terminals seems a lot cleaner way to do this than disconnecting the battery cables. And there is the possibility that disconnecting the battery from a fully loaded inverter may damage the inverter, do we really want to risk that whenever we test the RSD system? None of the current inverter mfg will say that this will do any damage, but they don't seem very convinced to me. I remember a decade ago when they did say there could be an issue. I'm not sure how much different inverters are now than then. Brad AEE Solar On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: > Dear List, > Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be > disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. > We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated when > people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). instead of > thinking through real life scenarios. > There are simple ways to work around these issues. > I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his > approval First. > What would I do in my own house? > What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a hoseline > into my basement. > My two cents > Pat > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, wrote: > >> Ray, >> >> I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit >> is a >> self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to >> develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY >> circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in >> the 2014 NEC. >> >> The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and >> the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially >> module-level >> shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved >> since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was >> developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014 >> NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this >> requirement. >> >> In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and >> loads, >> that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own >> articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a >> minute >> that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this >> way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV >> industry so I think I know what the intent was. >> >> It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep >> battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match >> the >> requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the >> 2014 NEC. >> >> The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot >> backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have >> their >> own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. >> >> Bill. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown >> >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: >> >> I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still >> being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in >> 690.12 >> are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals >> with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single >> article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both >> Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that >> rapid >> shutdown applies. >> My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system >> that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid >> shutdown >> at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module >> into >> the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with >> the >> term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output >> circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' >> defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. >> Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their >> remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the >> batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply >> with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. >> We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the >> Birdhouse, >> so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries >> though. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Patrick A. Shortell > *Licensed Master Electrician* > *Certified Solar Installer* > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > cell: 516-477-0221 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 15 20:01:23 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 18:01:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <1F840C6C-0A50-40E8-887D-D69BF4DF5FA3@gmail.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> <56E87BBD.9000700@solarray.com> <1F840C6C-0A50-40E8-887D-D69BF4DF5FA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56E8A253.2070104@solarray.com> Hi Pat; HI Pat; No disrespect in either direction. I always appreciate everyone's views. Larry's Gigavac solenoid looks good too, but my read of 690.71 looks like I still need an OCPD within 5 ft of the batteries, as well. I'm already using substantial Midnite products for the actual "PV Circuit" Rapid Disconnect, so I will probably do further "cobbling" with their RT Breakers and enclosures to meet the battery side requirements. It still is amazing that this is not being addressed by any of the inverter manufacturers. But hey, I'm just some hippy Drumpf brain from no where's ville, so what do I know? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer since 1986 303 505-8760 On 3/15/2016 3:54 PM, Patrick A. Shortell wrote: > Hi Ray > Well you got me there > I meant no disrespect to you personally. > I think as a whole the code making panels do their best to keep up. > If I missed some of the particulars > Please excuse me. > And I guess it would be more useful to offer a workable solution > Maybe I've missed some of the details but doesn't mid nite offer a > shunt trip breaker as part of their ebox that works with the birdhouse > I've used one in the past > Is it not ul listed > That's all from me > Pat > > Patrick A. Shortell > Licensed Master Electrician > Certified Solar Installer > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > Www.thesolarstorehouse.com > > > On Mar 15, 2016, at 5:16 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > >> So Pat, you stated "/There are simple ways to work around these >> issues/". Actually, the major off grid inverter manus do not have a >> solution for this ( Magnum, Outback, Exeltech, Schneider, SMA) >> Can you show us an example of a UL listed system that has multiple >> inverters (over 8 kW cont.), with rapid disconnects within 5 ft? I'm >> really looking for actual solutions here folks, and I haven't seen a >> single system ever built, much less even a simple wiring diagram that >> would comply with this new requirement. (/690.12(5) Equipment that >> performs the rapid shutdown shall be listed and identified/) >> >> Also, for every improvement comes a whole new set of problems. Your >> "/What would I do in my own house?/" is an excellent point. >> Personally, I would not want the neighbor's kids to be able to shut >> off my refrigerator or grandma's breathing machine with the touch of >> an outside accessible, unlockable button. >> >> I've been cobbling together code compliant systems for 2 decades, so >> yes, I'm sure I could scavenge relays from the EV world to do this. >> But the days of inventing custom (non UL) solutions to meet new >> requirements should be over. If this is to be a national >> requirement, the industry should be mature enough to offer multiple >> solutions for code compliance. I'm all for improving safety, but it >> needs to be done as an industry: together, incrementally. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/15/2016 1:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: >>> Dear List, >>> Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be >>> disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. >>> We can always do better than what the code requires. I get >>> frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the >>> text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. >>> There are simple ways to work around these issues. >>> I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his >>> approval First. >>> What would I do in my own house? >>> What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a >>> hoseline into my basement. >>> My two cents >>> Pat >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, >> > wrote: >>> >>> Ray, >>> >>> I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system >>> circuit is a >>> self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are >>> going to >>> develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It >>> means ANY >>> circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone >>> circuits in >>> the 2014 NEC. >>> >>> The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire >>> service and >>> the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially >>> module-level >>> shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them >>> involved >>> since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was >>> developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In >>> the 2014 >>> NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this >>> requirement. >>> >>> In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries >>> and loads, >>> that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own >>> articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think >>> for a minute >>> that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting >>> it in this >>> way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of >>> the PV >>> industry so I think I know what the intent was. >>> >>> It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would >>> try to keep >>> battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended >>> to match the >>> requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the >>> intent of the >>> 2014 NEC. >>> >>> The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they >>> still cannot >>> backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will >>> have their >>> own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. >>> >>> Bill. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Ray Walters >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >> > >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown >>> >>> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: >>> >>> I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we >>> are still >>> being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No >>> where in 690.12 >>> are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section >>> that deals >>> with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a >>> single >>> article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have >>> contacted both >>> Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are >>> unaware that rapid >>> shutdown applies. >>> My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and >>> battery system >>> that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any >>> rapid shutdown >>> at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar >>> module into >>> the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem >>> lies with the >>> term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output >>> circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system >>> circuit' >>> defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. >>> Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel >>> with their >>> remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft >>> from the >>> batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that >>> would comply >>> with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote >>> trip. >>> We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the >>> Birdhouse, >>> so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to >>> batteries >>> though. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -- >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Patrick A. Shortell >>> /Licensed Master Electrician/ >>> /Certified Solar Installer/ >>> 71 Oregon Street >>> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >>> cell: 516-477-0221 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 15 20:23:15 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 18:23:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56E8A773.3030101@solarray.com> Hi Brad; I think that remotely tripping the inverter might work with Outback, but definitely not with Magnum. (I checked with them today) Also, if the battery cables are more than 5 ft long, the rapid disconnect /might/ have to be closer to the batteries. (/690.12 ...shall apply only to PV system conductors more than 5 ft in length inside the building...) /As for inverter and overall system reliability? I'm afraid that//is going 'Rapidly' down hill.// Decades//of experience says that the more gizmos and automatic controls you add, the more chances you have for something to go wrong. The Birdhouse system defaults to/'off' /with any communications problems, so one CAT 5 cable has a nick in it, and the entire system crashes.//With all this emphasis on safety, we also need to be thinking about our customers living alone in cold, remote locations./ /Perhaps an emergency disconnect for the emergency disconnect? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/15/2016 5:45 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > I've been promoting the use of the remote on/off terminals that are > available in most inverters, which can be connected to the AUX in the > Birdhouse. For a very minimum effort and cost, the inverter AC output > would be shutdown when the rapid shutdown is activated. I think using > the remote on/off terminals seems a lot cleaner way to do this than > disconnecting the battery cables. And there is the possibility that > disconnecting the battery from a fully loaded inverter may damage the > inverter, do we really want to risk that whenever we test the RSD > system? None of the current inverter mfg will say that this will do > any damage, but they don't seem very convinced to me. I remember a > decade ago when they did say there could be an issue. I'm not sure how > much different inverters are now than then. > > Brad > AEE Solar > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell > > wrote: > > Dear List, > Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be > disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. > We can always do better than what the code requires. I get > frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the > text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. > There are simple ways to work around these issues. > I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get > his approval First. > What would I do in my own house? > What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a > hoseline into my basement. > My two cents > Pat > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, > wrote: > > Ray, > > I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV > system circuit is a > self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you > are going to > develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. > It means ANY > circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone > circuits in > the 2014 NEC. > > The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire > service and > the PV industry. Originally, the language required > essentially module-level > shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get > them involved > since most were not paying attention at the time. This > language was > developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. > In the 2014 > NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall > under this > requirement. > > In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all > batteries and loads, > that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in > their own > articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't > think for a minute > that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting > it in this > way. I did author this compromise with other representatives > of the PV > industry so I think I know what the intent was. > > It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would > try to keep > battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended > to match the > requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the > intent of the > 2014 NEC. > > The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they > still cannot > backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) > will have their > own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. > > Bill. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and > we are still > being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No > where in 690.12 > are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section > that deals > with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on > a single > article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have > contacted both > Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are > unaware that rapid > shutdown applies. > My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and > battery system > that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any > rapid shutdown > at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single > solar module into > the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem > lies with the > term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output > circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system > circuit' > defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. > Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel > with their > remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft > from the > batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that > would comply > with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer > remote trip. > We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with > the Birdhouse, > so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to > batteries > though. > > Thanks, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > Patrick A. Shortell > /Licensed Master Electrician/ > /Certified Solar Installer/ > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > cell: 516-477-0221 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Mar 15 22:04:08 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 19:04:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E8A773.3030101@solarray.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> <56E8A773.3030101@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56E8BF18.500@midnitesolar.com> On 3/15/2016 5:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Brad; > > I think that remotely tripping the inverter might work with Outback, > but definitely not with Magnum. (I checked with them today) Also, if > the battery cables are more than 5 ft long, the rapid disconnect > /might/ have to be closer to the batteries. (/690.12 ...shall apply > only to PV system conductors more than 5 ft in length inside the > building...) > / * Ray, There is no reason at all that any battery based inverter should not work with our RSS system. Did they give you a reason why the inverter can't be turned off by switching off its battery circuit breaker ? I almost always turn off a Magnum inverter (or other inverter) by switching off its battery breaker, at least when we're testing an E-panel system. Works every time except maybe if the grid is or generator is connected and running. In a shutdown condition, those two things would be dead and inactive. Also, Our 600V Cat5 cable is USE-2 rated, shielded and tougher than nails. Thanks and hallucinations, boB * > / > /As for inverter and overall system reliability? I'm afraid that//is > going 'Rapidly' down hill.// Decades//of experience says that the more > gizmos and automatic controls you add, the more chances you have for > something to go wrong. The Birdhouse system defaults to/'off' /with > any communications problems, so one CAT 5 cable has a nick in it, and > the entire system crashes.//With all this emphasis on safety, we also > need to be thinking about our customers living alone in cold, remote > locations./ > /Perhaps an emergency disconnect for the emergency disconnect? > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 3/15/2016 5:45 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >> I've been promoting the use of the remote on/off terminals that are >> available in most inverters, which can be connected to the AUX in the >> Birdhouse. For a very minimum effort and cost, the inverter AC output >> would be shutdown when the rapid shutdown is activated. I think >> using the remote on/off terminals seems a lot cleaner way to do this >> than disconnecting the battery cables. And there is the possibility >> that disconnecting the battery from a fully loaded inverter may >> damage the inverter, do we really want to risk that whenever we test >> the RSD system? None of the current inverter mfg will say that this >> will do any damage, but they don't seem very convinced to me. I >> remember a decade ago when they did say there could be an issue. I'm >> not sure how much different inverters are now than then. >> >> Brad >> AEE Solar >> >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell >> wrote: >> >> Dear List, >> Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources >> be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. >> We can always do better than what the code requires. I get >> frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind >> the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. >> There are simple ways to work around these issues. >> I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get >> his approval First. >> What would I do in my own house? >> What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a >> hoseline into my basement. >> My two cents >> Pat >> >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, > > wrote: >> >> Ray, >> >> I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV >> system circuit is a >> self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you >> are going to >> develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. >> It means ANY >> circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone >> circuits in >> the 2014 NEC. >> >> The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the >> fire service and >> the PV industry. Originally, the language required >> essentially module-level >> shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get >> them involved >> since most were not paying attention at the time. This >> language was >> developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. >> In the 2014 >> NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall >> under this >> requirement. >> >> In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all >> batteries and loads, >> that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in >> their own >> articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't >> think for a minute >> that I alone made this requirement or am alone in >> interpreting it in this >> way. I did author this compromise with other representatives >> of the PV >> industry so I think I know what the intent was. >> >> It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I >> would try to keep >> battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was >> intended to match the >> requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the >> intent of the >> 2014 NEC. >> >> The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they >> still cannot >> backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) >> will have their >> own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. >> >> Bill. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM >> To: RE-wrenches > > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown >> >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: >> >> I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and >> we are still >> being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No >> where in 690.12 >> are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 >> section that deals >> with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on >> a single >> article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have >> contacted both >> Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are >> unaware that rapid >> shutdown applies. >> My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and >> battery system >> that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any >> rapid shutdown >> at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single >> solar module into >> the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The >> problem lies with the >> term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV >> Output >> circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system >> circuit' >> defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. >> Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel >> with their >> remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 >> ft from the >> batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that >> would comply >> with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer >> remote trip. >> We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with >> the Birdhouse, >> so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to >> batteries >> though. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Patrick A. Shortell >> /Licensed Master Electrician/ >> /Certified Solar Installer/ >> 71 Oregon Street >> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >> cell: 516-477-0221 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 23:12:24 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:12:24 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Bill said one thing we ALL need to listen to, that is untill someone asked it appears the renewable energy industry was not at the table. We need all to be asking why and asking for change, also asking the AHJ where it is and to clearify, sometimes thats all it takes. I bet that of who was at the table there may have bern no one that does off grid or battery based systems and having inverter manufactures would also help. I have systems that pump water in the event of a fire, its needs to run or why is it there. Thats my additional two cents On Mar 15, 2016 5:01 AM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still > being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in > 690.12 are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that > deals with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a > single article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted > both Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that > rapid shutdown applies. > My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system > that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown > at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into > the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with > the term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output > circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' > defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. > Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their > remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the > batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply > with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. > We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the > Birdhouse, so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to > batteries though. > > Thanks, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Mar 16 00:04:27 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 22:04:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E8BF18.500@midnitesolar.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> <04f801d17edd$a19c9200$e4d5b600$@sbcglobal.net> <56E8A773.3030101@solarray.com> <56E8BF18.500@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <56E8DB4B.7080704@solarray.com> We were discussing remotely turning on and off the inverter itself like with the Outback's remote on/ off terminals. Magnum only has their remotes which aren't compatible with other systems. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/15/2016 8:04 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > On 3/15/2016 5:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> Hi Brad; >> >> I think that remotely tripping the inverter might work with Outback, >> but definitely not with Magnum. (I checked with them today) Also, if >> the battery cables are more than 5 ft long, the rapid disconnect >> /might/ have to be closer to the batteries. (/690.12 ...shall apply >> only to PV system conductors more than 5 ft in length inside the >> building...) >> / > * > > Ray, > > There is no reason at all that any battery based inverter should not > work with our RSS system. > > Did they give you a reason why the inverter can't be turned off by > switching off its battery circuit breaker ? > > I almost always turn off a Magnum inverter (or other inverter) by > switching off its battery breaker, > at least when we're testing an E-panel system. Works every time > except maybe if the grid > is or generator is connected and running. In a shutdown condition, > those two things would > be dead and inactive. > > Also, Our 600V Cat5 cable is USE-2 rated, shielded and tougher than nails. > > Thanks and hallucinations, > boB > * > >> / >> /As for inverter and overall system reliability? I'm afraid that//is >> going 'Rapidly' down hill.// Decades//of experience says that the >> more gizmos and automatic controls you add, the more chances you have >> for something to go wrong. The Birdhouse system defaults to/'off' >> /with any communications problems, so one CAT 5 cable has a nick in >> it, and the entire system crashes.//With all this emphasis on safety, >> we also need to be thinking about our customers living alone in cold, >> remote locations./ >> /Perhaps an emergency disconnect for the emergency disconnect? >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/15/2016 5:45 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >>> I've been promoting the use of the remote on/off terminals that are >>> available in most inverters, which can be connected to the AUX in >>> the Birdhouse. For a very minimum effort and cost, the inverter AC >>> output would be shutdown when the rapid shutdown is activated. I >>> think using the remote on/off terminals seems a lot cleaner way to >>> do this than disconnecting the battery cables. And there is the >>> possibility that disconnecting the battery from a fully loaded >>> inverter may damage the inverter, do we really want to risk that >>> whenever we test the RSD system? None of the current inverter mfg >>> will say that this will do any damage, but they don't seem very >>> convinced to me. I remember a decade ago when they did say there >>> could be an issue. I'm not sure how much different inverters are now >>> than then. >>> >>> Brad >>> AEE Solar >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear List, >>> Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources >>> be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. >>> We can always do better than what the code requires. I get >>> frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind >>> the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. >>> There are simple ways to work around these issues. >>> I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get >>> his approval First. >>> What would I do in my own house? >>> What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged >>> a hoseline into my basement. >>> My two cents >>> Pat >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, wrote: >>> >>> Ray, >>> >>> I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV >>> system circuit is a >>> self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you >>> are going to >>> develop a meaning that is different from the >>> self-definition. It means ANY >>> circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and >>> stand-alone circuits in >>> the 2014 NEC. >>> >>> The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the >>> fire service and >>> the PV industry. Originally, the language required >>> essentially module-level >>> shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get >>> them involved >>> since most were not paying attention at the time. This >>> language was >>> developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. >>> In the 2014 >>> NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall >>> under this >>> requirement. >>> >>> In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all >>> batteries and loads, >>> that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in >>> their own >>> articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't >>> think for a minute >>> that I alone made this requirement or am alone in >>> interpreting it in this >>> way. I did author this compromise with other representatives >>> of the PV >>> industry so I think I know what the intent was. >>> >>> It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I >>> would try to keep >>> battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was >>> intended to match the >>> requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the >>> intent of the >>> 2014 NEC. >>> >>> The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but >>> they still cannot >>> backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) >>> will have their >>> own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. >>> >>> Bill. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >>> Behalf Of Ray Walters >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown >>> >>> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: >>> >>> I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, >>> and we are still >>> being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No >>> where in 690.12 >>> are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 >>> section that deals >>> with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based >>> on a single >>> article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have >>> contacted both >>> Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are >>> unaware that rapid >>> shutdown applies. >>> My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and >>> battery system >>> that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any >>> rapid shutdown >>> at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single >>> solar module into >>> the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The >>> problem lies with the >>> term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV >>> Output >>> circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV >>> system circuit' >>> defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. >>> Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel >>> with their >>> remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 >>> ft from the >>> batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects >>> (that would comply >>> with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer >>> remote trip. >>> We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with >>> the Birdhouse, >>> so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to >>> batteries >>> though. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -- >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Patrick A. Shortell >>> /Licensed Master Electrician/ >>> /Certified Solar Installer/ >>> 71 Oregon Street >>> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >>> cell: 516-477-0221 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 08:25:24 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 06:25:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> References: <56E831F1.8020005@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, Yes, 690.12 is very tough to comply with for battery systems. The way we have done it is via Midnite's system and using shunt trip breakers. We have just shunt tripped the master Inverter breaker and this puts the other inverter(s) into standby with most off-grid systems. I like Brad's idea of just using remote On/Off terminals when that is available. I don't see many circumstances in which tripping a breaker within 5' of the batteries makes a big difference in safety, and this doesn't work well with very many off-the-shelf switchgear cabinets, and will certainly be redundant with switchgear cabinets designed to mount to the inverter. My real concern with rapid shutdown is the reliability over time. Roof-mounted electronics will fail at some point, I just hope that many expensive battery banks won't be lost because of this. Not to mention, that needing to get on the roof to reset electronics in winter can be extremely hazardous and/or impossible. Good luck! On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still > being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in > 690.12 are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that > deals with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a > single article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted > both Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that > rapid shutdown applies. > My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system > that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown > at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into > the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with > the term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output > circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' > defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. > Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their > remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the > batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply > with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. > We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the > Birdhouse, so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to > batteries though. > > Thanks, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Wed Mar 16 14:17:26 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 12:17:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HIQ Inverter Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> <56E2F4BD.5030400@entech-engineering.com> <7EFE247B-3E56-4B36-B501-C9F2ACBBBF01@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have been contacted by the inverter sales rep that provided this product to us and he has asked that I clarify the situation. first off the HiQ inverter system used was test equipment from the manufacturers so it may not represent their current product line. This project is located in Redway ca where we get an average of 58 Inches of rain a year. (predominately in large storms with high volumes of rain) The inverters were installed using S-5! brackets on standing seam metal roof so the balancers were not oriented vertically. (company rep was on site for installation and had no issues with the orientation.) This was a small system of 12 modules and we used 3 balencers. If I remember correctly the balencers have space for 4 modules so the final opening was sealed by method recommended by manufacturer. We had repeat failure of a single balencer (in the same location) due to water damage on the inside of the equipment. It was suggested that the cause of this water was due to a pore seal on one of the MC4 connections that allowed water to "wick" through the connection and into the inverter. Here is where the manufacturer rep and I part ways. Upon replacing the inverter a second time we checked connections and MC4 seals and found nothing indicating water or corrosion due to water damage and thus we did not replace them. This is what the manufacture is stating caused the inverter to fail the third time and perhaps it was. At the end of the day we ended up replacing the HIQ system with a string inverter and have had no issues with the system. (we did check the MC4 seals and connections again and found no corrosion or water.) Perhaps it was a connection issue and we just haven't found the proper connection causing the problem, and over time it will show it self. I did not mean to disrespect the company and the product line, it was simply my intention to share my experience with the product that we had with others in my field so that they might avoid similar headaches for other installers. I hear that they no longer use balencers and are just a string inverter manufacturer at this point. So perhaps the whole experience was of value and the issue that we experienced was solved. there are obviously many other locations out there that have functioning inverters from HiQ without this problem. The fact that the same balancer failed 3 times is suspicious and does point to some sort of environmental / installation reason. just wanted to outline the full story as I was not trying to sling mud, just trying to share our experience. cheers- Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > We were a test site for HiQ inverters at our warehouse in Redway ca. long > way from the ocean, but plenty of rain. We had to replace the "Balancers" > three times due to water damage before we switched to a string inverter. > even at free HiQ wasn't worth the hassle. > Maybe they have fixed the issues but I would not put them in any sort of > challenging env. > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Patrick Shortell > wrote: > >> Hi Jay, >> I did cut open one of the inverters. >> The electronics are potted but I noticed that there were studs that >> appeared riveted to the external casing which appeared to be aluminum. It >> appeared that the saltwater had entered along this stud and eventually made >> its way to the circuit board. I assume that the stud performed a grounding >> function since that model inverter is externally grounded. >> I could see the green evidence where the stud entered the potting that >> salt water had indeed passed through the potting and encountered some >> copper. I think Enphase has gone with a ground wire in the cabling >> nowadays. Maybe a new design has eliminated that route to the board. >> Pat >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 12:58 PM, jay wrote: >> >>> Hi Patrick >>> >>> I would add that the NEMA 6 rating is for dust/water intrusion, not >>> corrosion resistance. >>> >>> I don’t know what the metallurgy of the Enphase was/is or the HIQ. >>> But I would not make the assumption that whats bad/good for one is the >>> same for any other. >>> >>> jay >>> >>> Peltz power >>> >>> >>> On Mar 11, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Patrick Shortell >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Chris, >>> My experience with microinverters rated NEMA 6 in a salt environment was >>> an absolute disaster. I have a 50KW ground mount, Enphase M210's, Sanyo >>> 220's and within three years more than half failed. >>> The system is approx a 1/2 mile from the Ocean and about 300 Yards from >>> a bay and is also on an island. >>> We removed the microinverters and installed SMA string inverters. >>> We have similiar installations in the immediate area and the SMA product >>> has held up for 12 years. >>> My microinverter experiment ended badly and as an electrician for over >>> thirty years, the enphase product was the only product I ever saw with a >>> NEMA 6 rating. >>> My Opinion, you cant beat an SMA product in this environment. >>> Pat >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Christopher Warfel < >>> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: >>> >>>> We are designing a 480Vac, 3 phase system for a school on an island. >>>> The system will be outdoors, about 1/2 from the ocean shore. Corrosion via >>>> salt is a real problem. We submitted some pictures to Solar Pro for an >>>> article they are writing. HIQ are NEMA 6. I have no experience with them, >>>> and was wondering if anyone did. Thank you, Chris >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Christopher Warfel, President >>>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>> 401-466-8978 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Patrick A. Shortell >>> *Licensed Master Electrician* >>> *Certified Solar Installer* >>> 71 Oregon Street >>> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >>> cell: 516-477-0221 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Patrick A. Shortell >> *Licensed Master Electrician* >> *Certified Solar Installer* >> 71 Oregon Street >> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >> cell: 516-477-0221 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Mar 16 14:57:03 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 13:57:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire locator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Michael requested that i keep replies to this wire locator thread on list. Below is a reply from Travis Jordan reposted with permission. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Travis Jordan Date: Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 11:34 PM Subject: Greenlee Locators Wrenches To: solman at legacysolar.com Kris, I have the greenlee model 501 locator at roughly $500 and it works fine : http://www.greenlee.com/products/CABLE-LOCATOR-TACKER-II-(501).html I also bought the greenlee pulse fault locator at roughly $1,100 and I have been very happy with the combination. The fault locator is especially awesome, my employees as first time users can find faults in quarter mile long buried lines over 4ft deep with no trouble within a few inches.... worth every bit of the investment! Good luck, *Travis Jordan**Owner/ President**844-687-6527, Ext. 104**406-206-5105* *travis at mtsolar.us **www.mtsolar.us * *travis at jordansolar.net www.jordansolar.net **MT Solar LLC*[image: MT Solar Logo] On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > We have a Schonstedt unit, works very well for electrical services. There > has to be current in the cable to see it. Otherwise you can find data > cables and dead electrical cables by injecting a signal using the signal > generator, either by induction or direct connection. > It can find a service very accurately and give you the depth. However, it > takes some practice as you can get fooled by stray currents and water > pipes. It's nicely made and robust. > Price is a bit more than you were expecting, if memory serves me right. > You can rent for one-offs. > > www.schonstedt.com > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Do any of you use a underground wire locating device? If so, can you >> recommend a brand? I've seen them for $50 and $2,500. Reply off list, >> please. >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Mar 16 16:38:03 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 16:38:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HIQ Inverter Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <004601d17a7e$9dba3830$d92ea890$@sbcglobal.net> <56E1486E.5090108@charter.net> <56E2F4BD.5030400@entech-engineering.com> <7EFE247B-3E56-4B36-B501-C9F2ACBBBF01@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56E9C42B.5070108@entech-engineering.com> All the information I received to my post has been very helpful. Products are being constantly changed, and I wanted to make sure previous edition products are not reflective of today's products, if today's products have solved legacy problems. I've talked to the manufacturer and they have improved past designs. It's difficult for me, as this product could solve a design problem, but I want to make sure that it does work as described in today's literature. No one wants to go back to fix a system because of a manufacturer problem. Thanks to everyone. Chris On 3/16/2016 2:17 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > I have been contacted by the inverter sales rep that provided this > product to us and he has asked that I clarify the situation. > > first off the HiQ inverter system used was test equipment from the > manufacturers so it may not represent their current product line. > > This project is located in Redway ca where we get an average of 58 > Inches of rain a year. (predominately in large storms with high > volumes of rain) > The inverters were installed using S-5! brackets on standing seam > metal roof so the balancers were not oriented vertically. (company > rep was on site for installation and had no issues with the orientation.) > This was a small system of 12 modules and we used 3 balencers. If I > remember correctly the balencers have space for 4 modules so the final > opening was sealed by method recommended by manufacturer. > We had repeat failure of a single balencer (in the same location) due > to water damage on the inside of the equipment. > It was suggested that the cause of this water was due to a pore seal > on one of the MC4 connections that allowed water to "wick" through the > connection and into the inverter. > > Here is where the manufacturer rep and I part ways. > > Upon replacing the inverter a second time we checked connections and > MC4 seals and found nothing indicating water or corrosion due to water > damage and thus we did not replace them. This is what the manufacture > is stating caused the inverter to fail the third time and perhaps it > was. At the end of the day we ended up replacing the HIQ system with > a string inverter and have had no issues with the system. (we did > check the MC4 seals and connections again and found no corrosion or > water.) > > Perhaps it was a connection issue and we just haven't found the proper > connection causing the problem, and over time it will show it self. > > I did not mean to disrespect the company and the product line, it was > simply my intention to share my experience with the product that we > had with others in my field so that they might avoid similar headaches > for other installers. > > I hear that they no longer use balencers and are just a string > inverter manufacturer at this point. So perhaps the whole experience > was of value and the issue that we experienced was solved. > > there are obviously many other locations out there that have > functioning inverters from HiQ without this problem. The fact that the > same balancer failed 3 times is suspicious and does point to some sort > of environmental / installation reason. > > just wanted to outline the full story as I was not trying to sling > mud, just trying to share our experience. > > cheers- > Daniel > > > > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Daniel Tittmann > > wrote: > > We were a test site for HiQ inverters at our warehouse in Redway > ca. long way from the ocean, but plenty of rain. We had to > replace the "Balancers" three times due to water damage before we > switched to a string inverter. even at free HiQ wasn't worth the > hassle. > Maybe they have fixed the issues but I would not put them in any > sort of challenging env. > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Patrick Shortell > > wrote: > > Hi Jay, > I did cut open one of the inverters. > The electronics are potted but I noticed that there were studs > that appeared riveted to the external casing which appeared to > be aluminum. It appeared that the saltwater had entered along > this stud and eventually made its way to the circuit board. I > assume that the stud performed a grounding function since that > model inverter is externally grounded. > I could see the green evidence where the stud entered the > potting that salt water had indeed passed through the potting > and encountered some copper. I think Enphase has gone with a > ground wire in the cabling nowadays. Maybe a new design has > eliminated that route to the board. > Pat > > > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 12:58 PM, jay > wrote: > > Hi Patrick > > I would add that the NEMA 6 rating is for dust/water > intrusion, not corrosion resistance. > > I don’t know what the metallurgy of the Enphase was/is or > the HIQ. > But I would not make the assumption that whats bad/good > for one is the same for any other. > > jay > > Peltz power > > >> On Mar 11, 2016, at 9:29 AM, Patrick Shortell >> > wrote: >> >> Hi Chris, >> My experience with microinverters rated NEMA 6 in a salt >> environment was an absolute disaster. I have a 50KW >> ground mount, Enphase M210's, Sanyo 220's and within >> three years more than half failed. >> The system is approx a 1/2 mile from the Ocean and about >> 300 Yards from a bay and is also on an island. >> We removed the microinverters and installed SMA string >> inverters. >> We have similiar installations in the immediate area and >> the SMA product has held up for 12 years. >> My microinverter experiment ended badly and as an >> electrician for over thirty years, the enphase product >> was the only product I ever saw with a NEMA 6 rating. >> My Opinion, you cant beat an SMA product in this environment. >> Pat >> >> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Christopher Warfel >> > > wrote: >> >> We are designing a 480Vac, 3 phase system for a >> school on an island. The system will be outdoors, >> about 1/2 from the ocean shore. Corrosion via salt is >> a real problem. We submitted some pictures to Solar >> Pro for an article they are writing. HIQ are NEMA 6. >> I have no experience with them, and was wondering if >> anyone did. Thank you, Chris >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, President >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Patrick A. Shortell >> /Licensed Master Electrician/ >> /Certified Solar Installer/ >> 71 Oregon Street >> Long Beach N.Y. 11561 >> cell: 516-477-0221 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > -- > Patrick A. Shortell > /Licensed Master Electrician/ > /Certified Solar Installer/ > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > cell: 516-477-0221 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Mar 16 19:26:48 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 18:26:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire locator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A reply from Theo Van regarding wire locators. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Theo Van Date: Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Wire locator To: Kristopher Schmid I have a Greenlee 508 S, my second one. Transmitter sends a signal tone on conductor and receiver whines when near target and nulls out when dead on. Very accurate once you're used to it. On plus side: About $300.00 Compact, fits in truck nicely in a good case. Locates 3' deep and more and at least 2000' in my use. Will trace anything conductive. Conductors can be energized (to 120VAC I think?) or not. Cons are: User learning curve but prob same w most units. Wimpy alligator clips but carry a bigger one and clip to that. Not so good in walls. No provisions for fault locating other than tone fades or stops. Can pick up interference from AC and DC sources. Call USA and use them as a guide if possible. And ALWAYS make sure the buried wire you think is de energized REALLY is. A local wire jocky just died here cause he cut buried wire he was sure he de energized. More than once I've come across underground hack work (and not) that was hard to make sense of because I couldn't see where the wires really came from or went. My locator didn't lie; it just didn't tell the whole story. On a related note, something new to think about considering long distance underground high voltage DC runs now becoming more common; how can you test if it's live? How would anyone even know it's there? One day someone is going to drive a steel fence picket through a DC feeder that nobody remembered was there.... Be safe. Good luck. On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Wrenches, > > Michael requested that i keep replies to this wire locator thread on > list. Below is a reply from Travis Jordan reposted with permission. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Travis Jordan > Date: Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 11:34 PM > Subject: Greenlee Locators Wrenches > To: solman at legacysolar.com > > > Kris, > > I have the greenlee model 501 locator at roughly $500 and it works fine : > http://www.greenlee.com/products/CABLE-LOCATOR-TACKER-II-(501).html > > I also bought the greenlee pulse fault locator at roughly $1,100 and I > have been very happy with the combination. The fault locator is especially > awesome, my employees as first time users can find faults in quarter mile > long buried lines over 4ft deep with no trouble within a few inches.... > worth every bit of the investment! > > Good luck, > > *Travis Jordan**Owner/ President**844-687-6527, Ext. 104**406-206-5105* > *travis at mtsolar.us **www.mtsolar.us > * > > > *travis at jordansolar.net www.jordansolar.net > **MT Solar LLC*[image: MT Solar Logo] > > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Chris Mason > wrote: > >> We have a Schonstedt unit, works very well for electrical services. There >> has to be current in the cable to see it. Otherwise you can find data >> cables and dead electrical cables by injecting a signal using the signal >> generator, either by induction or direct connection. >> It can find a service very accurately and give you the depth. However, it >> takes some practice as you can get fooled by stray currents and water >> pipes. It's nicely made and robust. >> Price is a bit more than you were expecting, if memory serves me right. >> You can rent for one-offs. >> >> www.schonstedt.com >> >> On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Kristopher Schmid < >> solman at legacysolar.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> Do any of you use a underground wire locating device? If so, can you >>> recommend a brand? I've seen them for $50 and $2,500. Reply off list, >>> please. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Kris >>> >>> -- >>> Shine On! >>> >>> Kris Schmid >>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>> 864 Clam Falls Trail >>> Frederic, WI 54837 >>> www.legacysolar.com >>> 715-653-4295 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>> BSEE >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Mar 18 20:02:24 2016 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (markf at berkeleysolar.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] One input on Tripower 300000tl? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37065.66.117.140.17.1458345744.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Does anyone know if you can bond the two mppt tracking inputs together in order to connect a single 30000 w input? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems From solarwrench at asis.com Fri Mar 18 20:04:51 2016 From: solarwrench at asis.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:04:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bay Area Structural Engineer Recommendation? Message-ID: <66DEF756-DDAB-4BBD-9B59-4DB9BF98964B@asis.com> Hi Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a good structural engineer in the Bay Area? Blessings, Kelly ~~~~~ Kelly Larson 707-223-3209 Box 504 Ukiah, CA 95482 Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional IREC Certified Master Trainer for Photovoltaic Installer CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 SolarKelly.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 20:45:17 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:45:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW series fuse rating In-Reply-To: <37065.66.117.140.17.1458345744.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> References: <37065.66.117.140.17.1458345744.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1B6CE82D-C579-446F-9F56-6E0157F31595@gmail.com> HI All, I was looking at the SW cut sheet. It doesn’t mention series fuse rating. It does mention “maximum reverse current” Is this the same thing? Or where would I find the series fuse rating. thanks jay peltz power From bob at midnitesolar.com Fri Mar 18 23:36:23 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 20:36:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.12 Webinar In-Reply-To: <56EC30CB.9060104@midnitesolar.com> References: <56EC30CB.9060104@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <56ECC937.70806@midnitesolar.com> Hello Wrenches... I don't normally announce something things like this but since Rapid Shutdown is a fairly hot topic these days, I am posting info on a webinar that we are putting on March 30th. If you have any questions, please email or call Raechel raechel at midnitesolar.com Thanks ! And thank you, Michael for allowing this one announcement ! boB Come Learn About Our Rapid Shut Down Gear! Wednesday Webinar March 30th,1 PM EST *Join us for our NEC 690.12 Rapid Shut Down Webinar. We will cover all of the components that form a Midnite Solar Rapid Shut Down System. We will also discuss the selection the appropriate equipment for your application, integrating Rapid Shut Down equipment into existing systems and as always we will have plenty of time to answer questions. This course is approved by NABCEP and will count as one hour of Continuing Education for NABCEP Certified Installers.* This is one example of a Rapid Shut Down System utilizing our components. Sign Up Today! / We are offering training webinars to installers and distributors interested in educating themselves and their sales staff about our products. Our webinars can be tailored to fit your needs and we can accommodate groups of any size on a flexible schedule. For more information please contact us at / / *webinars at midnitesolar.com* . / * Midnite Solar Inc | www.midnitesolar.com| webinars at midnitesolar.com * MidNite Solar Inc.,17722 67th AVE NE, Arlington, WA 98223 SafeUnsubscribe™ raechel at midnitesolar.com Forward this email | About our service provider Sent by raechel at midnitesolar.com in collaboration with Constant Contact Try it free today -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 01:22:53 2016 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 22:22:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW series fuse rating In-Reply-To: <1B6CE82D-C579-446F-9F56-6E0157F31595@gmail.com> References: <37065.66.117.140.17.1458345744.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <1B6CE82D-C579-446F-9F56-6E0157F31595@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay I believe that is the same. I hate that they say it that way...very confusing. I think it comes from the way it is tested by UL. They reverse current at 1.5 times the fuse rating to insure the fuse size is correct (fuse plus safety factor). Bill On Mar 18, 2016 6:56 PM, "jay" wrote: > HI All, > > I was looking at the SW cut sheet. > It doesn’t mention series fuse rating. > > It does mention “maximum reverse current” > Is this the same thing? > > Or where would I find the series fuse rating. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Mar 21 17:58:04 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 16:58:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW series fuse rating In-Reply-To: <1B6CE82D-C579-446F-9F56-6E0157F31595@gmail.com> References: <37065.66.117.140.17.1458345744.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <1B6CE82D-C579-446F-9F56-6E0157F31595@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just did a class exercise using the upcoming sw290 for sizing conductors and OCPD and the calculation was such that a 20 amp fuse was needed (rounding up from Isc x 1.56). I hope that the maximum reverse current on the spec sheet is also the maximum series fuse rating. Kris On Mar 18, 2016 8:56 PM, "jay" wrote: > HI All, > > I was looking at the SW cut sheet. > It doesn’t mention series fuse rating. > > It does mention “maximum reverse current” > Is this the same thing? > > Or where would I find the series fuse rating. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 18:32:07 2016 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 16:32:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW series fuse rating In-Reply-To: References: <37065.66.117.140.17.1458345744.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <1B6CE82D-C579-446F-9F56-6E0157F31595@gmail.com> Message-ID: Reverse current and max series fuse are not always the same, check out this Solar Frontier manual, pg 3: http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cs/groups/co_en_product/documents/document/mdaw/mdey/~edisp/c012760.pdf Rebekah Hren On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > I just did a class exercise using the upcoming sw290 for sizing conductors > and OCPD and the calculation was such that a 20 amp fuse was needed > (rounding up from Isc x 1.56). I hope that the maximum reverse current on > the spec sheet is also the maximum series fuse rating. > > Kris > On Mar 18, 2016 8:56 PM, "jay" wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I was looking at the SW cut sheet. >> It doesn’t mention series fuse rating. >> >> It does mention “maximum reverse current” >> Is this the same thing? >> >> Or where would I find the series fuse rating. >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 21:05:14 2016 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 18:05:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW series fuse rating In-Reply-To: References: <37065.66.117.140.17.1458345744.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <1B6CE82D-C579-446F-9F56-6E0157F31595@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rebekah I am not 100% sure but I think that there is often confusion between max fuse and max reverse current. When you list a module you request a fuse rating , in this case 4 A and UL will test it by applying a max reverse current of 1.75(max fuse rating) or 7 Amps with out a fuse to insure that the module does not melt down. Basically they are adding to the fuse rating for a healthy safety factor. The required fuse for this application is of course 4A. I think sometimes manufacturers(marketers) do not understand the difference and like to report the higher number cause it sounds better. I have had heated discussions with module and inverter manufacturers over this in the past. Would be nice if the industry would grow up and report everything the same way or at least the way that make sit clearer for installers and inspectors! Bill On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > Reverse current and max series fuse are not always the same, check out > this Solar Frontier manual, pg 3: > > > http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cs/groups/co_en_product/documents/document/mdaw/mdey/~edisp/c012760.pdf > > > Rebekah Hren > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> I just did a class exercise using the upcoming sw290 for sizing >> conductors and OCPD and the calculation was such that a 20 amp fuse was >> needed (rounding up from Isc x 1.56). I hope that the maximum reverse >> current on the spec sheet is also the maximum series fuse rating. >> >> Kris >> On Mar 18, 2016 8:56 PM, "jay" wrote: >> >>> HI All, >>> >>> I was looking at the SW cut sheet. >>> It doesn’t mention series fuse rating. >>> >>> It does mention “maximum reverse current” >>> Is this the same thing? >>> >>> Or where would I find the series fuse rating. >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 12:23:11 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick A. Shortell) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:23:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sharp solar Message-ID: Hello list Don't know if this is the proper forum for this but I've been feeling nostalgic about sharp solar lately I visited on old client over the weekend and took a peak at her system It's just about ten years ago I installed it and never had an issue I installed the sharp triangles and the sun vista inverter for her Sharp really had the grid tie market figured out 3- mppt inverter Modules that looked awesome on a hip roof That srs mounting system that was beautiful and basically rodent proof Union made modules made in the USA I really wish they could have survived They were light years ahead I have about 20 sun vistas out there 0 failures A couple of squeaky fans It's a shame because these types of innovations could be up sold in today's market There's so many ugly rectangles installed on hip roofs near me God I miss sharp! FYI Anybody doing peak shaving should check out the sharp smart storage website Looks like they're innovating again Please come back! Thanks for listening Pat Patrick A. Shortell Licensed Master Electrician Certified Solar Installer 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 Www.thesolarstorehouse.com From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Mar 23 17:08:25 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:08:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof Message-ID: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has been tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: the wiring and connections are all very tight. SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes from electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc fault protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 17:36:02 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:36:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, We have had AFCI issues with also no problems to be found, in some cases very early am or late pm and we fould that its comming from AC Compressor contactors on the same building, also arc welders will cause a trip Jerry On Mar 23, 2016 11:08 AM, "Drake" wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has been > tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: the > wiring and connections are all very tight. > > SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes from > electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. > > What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc fault > protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > No > threats detected. www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed Mar 23 17:39:27 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:39:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <01a001d1854c$7b7244b0$7256ce10$@solarwindworks.com> Years ago, 2007 we had a similar situation & found a pinched module wire that was suspect. We insulated it, retested and same tripping in the old sunny boy. Tech support kept pointing at the wiring, then finally coughed up a replacement under warranty, as the inverter was the only weak link left. No problems since then with that system. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 2:08 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof Hello Wrenches, We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has been tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: the wiring and connections are all very tight. SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes from electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc fault protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ No threats detected. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Mar 23 18:16:41 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 15:16:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi Drake, What model SMA inverter(s) and modules do you have? We had one case where a MC4 connector under the array was not making good contact. It was not seated properly when the installer made up the connector and the arc fault sensor in the inverter did its job. We had another site where some electrical noise on the AC side, presumably a sump pump, caused the issue and we could not solve it so had to switch to another inverter manufacturer. There were other cases where the impedance or other electrical characteristics of the solar modules where the likely culprit. Is your roof and array totally equipment grounded? Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Wednesday, March 23, 2016 2:08 PM *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof Hello Wrenches, We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has been tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: the wiring and connections are all very tight. SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes from electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc fault protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ No threats detected. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 18:24:13 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:24:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: We had that issue once. It was after a night of heavy rainfall and the error only read for the first few early hours of the day. SMA told us it was a poor connection in an MC4 connector that most likely got some dampness in it... Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 5:16 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Drake, > > > > What model SMA inverter(s) and modules do you have? We had one case where > a MC4 connector under the array was not making good contact. It was not > seated properly when the installer made up the connector and the arc fault > sensor in the inverter did its job. We had another site where some > electrical noise on the AC side, presumably a sump pump, caused the issue > and we could not solve it so had to switch to another inverter > manufacturer. There were other cases where the impedance or other > electrical characteristics of the solar modules where the likely culprit. > > > > Is your roof and array totally equipment grounded? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 23, 2016 2:08 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has been > tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: the > wiring and connections are all very tight. > > SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes from > electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. > > What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc fault > protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar > PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328>*http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > No threats detected. www.avast.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Wed Mar 23 18:08:13 2016 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 18:08:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Group thoughts on Power Perfect Box from Static USA Message-ID: Question , The Power Perfect Box www.StaticUSA.com a line conditioning , power quality , phase quality , UL listed is used by several solar and electrical contractors . MIT reports 99 % reduction in EMF and THD , also reducing electrical energy created as heat and improves DC -to - AC inverter conversion . It is installed at the breaker panel and also acts as a surge protector . Claims made to increase solar production by 2% to 3 % and 3% reduction in electrical cost and to make LEDS , CFLS, AND APPLIANCES LAST LONGER AND reduction of heat in computers , lap tops , etc . Also stops Smart Meters from data retrieved over hard wired electrical systems and reduces EMF from Smart meters . My commercial and residential electrician with 30 years of contracting hates Smart Meters and rages about the EMF Heath threats to pregnant women , children , and old coots like me . My accountant sez it can count for the IRS credit if installed with solar for Power Conditioning . Other solar guys are selling it and it seems to have a high ROI at $395 to a dealer . If the group believes this is snake oil or suede shoe nonsense let me know . The claims for savings are reasonable . GatorTom soon to be hiking for 5 months on the AT . Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Wed Mar 23 18:52:52 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 15:52:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Group thoughts on Power Perfect Box from Static USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d218d2aa7cb701683973c5ae497d167@mail.gmail.com> Tom, Your link doesn't work. You have to remove the first "t". It's "Satic" Here is the correct link: http://www.saticusa.com/wordpress/ Brian AEE Solar -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 3:08 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Group thoughts on Power Perfect Box from Static USA Question , The Power Perfect Box www.StaticUSA.com a line conditioning , power quality , phase quality , UL listed is used by several solar and electrical contractors . MIT reports 99 % reduction in EMF and THD , also reducing electrical energy created as heat and improves DC -to - AC inverter conversion . It is installed at the breaker panel and also acts as a surge protector . Claims made to increase solar production by 2% to 3 % and 3% reduction in electrical cost and to make LEDS , CFLS, AND APPLIANCES LAST LONGER AND reduction of heat in computers , lap tops , etc . Also stops Smart Meters from data retrieved over hard wired electrical systems and reduces EMF from Smart meters . My commercial and residential electrician with 30 years of contracting hates Smart Meters and rages about the EMF Heath threats to pregnant women , children , and old coots like me . My accountant sez it can count for the IRS credit if installed with solar for Power Conditioning . Other solar g uys are selling it and it seems to have a high ROI at $395 to a dealer . If the group believes this is snake oil or suede shoe nonsense let me know . The claims for savings are reasonable . GatorTom soon to be hiking for 5 months on the AT . Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 19:04:02 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:04:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Group thoughts on Power Perfect Box from Static USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8363A195-AA99-47F0-A886-FE5478A73D64@gmail.com> HI Tom, Well I saw this and had to put my 2cents in. I’m guessing from looking at the box that its just capacitors. If the caps are sized to the exact load they will increase PF, which probably reduces some harmonics. But what about our neighbors, and their loads which we’ll see on our house side of the meter? But its the details. Loads from motors to LED’s are all over the size and range of the caps needed so its impossible to build one for a “house” and have it work across all power/PF/load ranges. And lets go further, we don’t pay for our electricity like that, so PF correction gets us no reduction in our electric bills. So the 3% is bogus. As to how it would help our GTI inverters, nope. The smart meters, don’t use power line carrier but a wireless carrier, so hard to see how that would help with EMF. In the end snake oil. jay PS 20+ year ago at MREF, there were folks selling same thing. Reduce your bill etc. > On Mar 23, 2016, at 3:08 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > Question , The Power Perfect Box www.StaticUSA.com a line conditioning , power quality , phase quality , UL listed is used by several solar and electrical contractors . MIT reports 99 % reduction in EMF and THD , also reducing electrical energy created as heat and improves DC -to - AC inverter conversion . It is installed at the breaker panel and also acts as a surge protector . Claims made to increase solar production by 2% to 3 % and 3% reduction in electrical cost and to make LEDS , CFLS, AND APPLIANCES LAST LONGER AND reduction of heat in computers , lap tops , etc . Also stops Smart Meters from data retrieved over hard wired electrical systems and reduces EMF from Smart meters . My commercial and residential electrician with 30 years of contracting hates Smart Meters and rages about the EMF Heath threats to pregnant women , children , and old coots like me . My accountant sez it can count for the IRS credit if installed with solar for Power Conditioning . Other solar g > uys are selling it and it seems to have a high ROI at $395 to a dealer . If the group believes this is snake oil or suede shoe nonsense let me know . The claims for savings are reasonable . GatorTom soon to be hiking for 5 months on the AT . > > Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Mar 24 08:38:25 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 08:38:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Recently we have had the AFCI trip in a couple SB-TL-22 inverters. Restarted the inverter, the fault was not still present. It has not tripped in the month since at either site. Maybe an issue with the inverter? Only time will tell. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 6:24 PM, AE Solar wrote: > We had that issue once. It was after a night of heavy rainfall and the > error only read for the first few early hours of the day. SMA told us it > was a poor connection in an MC4 connector that most likely got some > dampness in it... > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 5:16 PM, August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Drake, >> >> >> >> What model SMA inverter(s) and modules do you have? We had one case where >> a MC4 connector under the array was not making good contact. It was not >> seated properly when the installer made up the connector and the arc fault >> sensor in the inverter did its job. We had another site where some >> electrical noise on the AC side, presumably a sump pump, caused the issue >> and we could not solve it so had to switch to another inverter >> manufacturer. There were other cases where the impedance or other >> electrical characteristics of the solar modules where the likely culprit. >> >> >> >> Is your roof and array totally equipment grounded? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> August >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Drake >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 23, 2016 2:08 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof >> >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has been >> tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: the >> wiring and connections are all very tight. >> >> SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes from >> electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. >> >> What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc fault >> protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar >> PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328>*http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> >> No threats detected. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Mar 24 10:31:52 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:31:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20160324143158.75C111052B@che.dreamhost.com> Hi August, The inverter is an Sunny Boy 7700TL-US-22 with REC 280 TP modules. The array and roof are grounded. There are large compressors on the system for heat pump and A/C. The array is on an estimated 2600 sq ft metal roof. The system had no issues for months after the installation and then the arc fault device started tripping and wouldn't stay reset. The system was operating normally again by the time we got there. Drake At 06:16 PM 3/23/2016, you wrote: >Hi Drake, > >What model SMA inverter(s) and modules do you >have? We had one case where a MC4 connector >under the array was not making good contact. It >was not seated properly when the installer made >up the connector and the arc fault sensor in the >inverter did its job. We had another site where >some electrical noise on the AC side, presumably >a sump pump, caused the issue and we could not >solve it so had to switch to another inverter >manufacturer. There were other cases where the >impedance or other electrical characteristics of >the solar modules where the likely culprit. > >Is your roof and array totally equipment grounded? > >Best, > >August > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 2:08 PM >To: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof > >Hello Wrenches, > >We have a project with an array on a large metal >roof. The AFCI has been tripping. Investigating >the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: >the wiring and connections are all very tight. > >SMA tech support says it is likely that the >nuisance tripping comes from electrical noise >getting picked up by the large metal roof. > >What has been your overall experience with >nuisance tripping of arc fault protection? What >were the suspected causes? What was the solution? > >Thanks, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > > >[] > >No threats detected. >www.avast.com > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Mar 24 09:36:25 2016 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 07:36:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Group thoughts on Power Perfect Box from StaticUSA In-Reply-To: <8363A195-AA99-47F0-A886-FE5478A73D64@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear people: My installer (a master electrician) thinks these are the cat's meow, so I had him install one on my home/office; my place is a battery-based grid-tie with an early model Radian inverter. Once installed (we are music lovers here) we kept hearing blips and occasional shut-downs on our stereo set-up! It was intolerable. Once removed, it was smooth as usual. Watch out for those magic boxes--they're really not so magical. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Group thoughts on Power Perfect Box from StaticUSA HI Tom, Well I saw this and had to put my 2cents in. I'm guessing from looking at the box that its just capacitors. If the caps are sized to the exact load they will increase PF, which probably reduces some harmonics. But what about our neighbors, and their loads which we'll see on our house side of the meter? But its the details. Loads from motors to LED's are all over the size and range of the caps needed so its impossible to build one for a "house" and have it work across all power/PF/load ranges. And lets go further, we don't pay for our electricity like that, so PF correction gets us no reduction in our electric bills. So the 3% is bogus. As to how it would help our GTI inverters, nope. The smart meters, don't use power line carrier but a wireless carrier, so hard to see how that would help with EMF. In the end snake oil. jay PS 20+ year ago at MREF, there were folks selling same thing. Reduce your bill etc. > On Mar 23, 2016, at 3:08 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > Question , The Power Perfect Box www.StaticUSA.com a line > conditioning , power quality , phase quality , UL listed is used by several solar and electrical contractors . MIT reports 99 % reduction in EMF and THD , also reducing electrical energy created as heat and improves DC -to - AC inverter conversion . It is installed at the breaker panel and also acts as a surge protector . Claims made to increase solar production by 2% to 3 % and 3% reduction in electrical cost and to make LEDS , CFLS, AND APPLIANCES LAST LONGER AND reduction of heat in computers , lap tops , etc . Also stops Smart Meters from data retrieved over hard wired electrical systems and reduces EMF from Smart meters . My commercial and residential electrician with 30 years of contracting hates Smart Meters and rages about the EMF Heath threats to pregnant women , children , and old coots like me . My accountant sez it can count for the IRS credit if installed with solar for Power Conditioning . Other solar g uys are selling it and it seems to have a high ROI at $395 to a dealer . If the group believes this is snake oil or suede shoe nonsense let me know . The claims for savings are reasonable . GatorTom soon to be hiking for 5 months on the AT . > > Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Gary at hudsonsolar.com Thu Mar 24 10:58:17 2016 From: Gary at hudsonsolar.com (Gary Bassett) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 14:58:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <5ea3e7fcf4e8450d9c77e0c1599baf66@Hosted-MS-3.elcomp.local> We’ve seen random AFCI trips with SB-TL-22 inverters. After going through the last system checking all connections including the possibility of a loose MC4 connection the fault was still present. SMA then told us they had a new firmware release, when it was installed the problem went away. Gary [cid:55B44DB1-8648-4A44-97C2-50FBD3E2B4BD] Gary Bassett Engineering Manager Hudson Solar 13 Hook Road Rhinebeck, NY T: (866) 452-7652 x113 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional HudsonSolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 8:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof Recently we have had the AFCI trip in a couple SB-TL-22 inverters. Restarted the inverter, the fault was not still present. It has not tripped in the month since at either site. Maybe an issue with the inverter? Only time will tell. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan Project Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 6:24 PM, AE Solar > wrote: We had that issue once. It was after a night of heavy rainfall and the error only read for the first few early hours of the day. SMA told us it was a poor connection in an MC4 connector that most likely got some dampness in it... Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 5:16 PM, August Goers > wrote: Hi Drake, What model SMA inverter(s) and modules do you have? We had one case where a MC4 connector under the array was not making good contact. It was not seated properly when the installer made up the connector and the arc fault sensor in the inverter did its job. We had another site where some electrical noise on the AC side, presumably a sump pump, caused the issue and we could not solve it so had to switch to another inverter manufacturer. There were other cases where the impedance or other electrical characteristics of the solar modules where the likely culprit. Is your roof and array totally equipment grounded? Best, August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 2:08 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof Hello Wrenches, We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has been tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: the wiring and connections are all very tight. SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes from electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc fault protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/2016/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-v1.png] No threats detected. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 23885 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 11:11:35 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 08:11:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <705ABD1F-250E-4110-850D-469F785A5E09@gmail.com> Hi drake. I've been researching problems with using the wrong connectors. Are your home runs using same brand connectors as the modules? Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 23, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Drake wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has been tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: the wiring and connections are all very tight. > > SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes from electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. > > What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc fault protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > No threats detected. www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Mar 24 16:08:07 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 16:08:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Glue-on type modules Message-ID: Hi all, It has been years since I used Uni-solar PVL modules and have had little call for or interest in amorphous glue-on modules, so I'm a bit out of the loop. Does anyone know anything about that market? I've searched the archives and see no recent references, and the only thing I can find on the web are old Uni-solar modules on Amazon. *Thanks,Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Mar 24 16:33:24 2016 From: LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 20:33:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Glue-on type modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, Take a look at the MiaSole site. Not sure how they are set up RE sales / dist. Best Regards, Lloyd Lloyd S. Hoffstatter M.S. in Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Solar PV Installer #102503-23 Director Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 4:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Glue-on type modules Hi all, It has been years since I used Uni-solar PVL modules and have had little call for or interest in amorphous glue-on modules, so I'm a bit out of the loop. Does anyone know anything about that market? I've searched the archives and see no recent references, and the only thing I can find on the web are old Uni-solar modules on Amazon. Thanks, Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Mar 25 09:30:09 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 09:30:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: <705ABD1F-250E-4110-850D-469F785A5E09@gmail.com> References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> <705ABD1F-250E-4110-850D-469F785A5E09@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160325133008.2529F208058@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> Hi Jay, Yes, they are the same, MC4. Drake At 11:11 AM 3/24/2016, you wrote: >Hi drake. > >I've been researching problems with using the wrong connectors. >Are your home runs using same brand connectors as the modules? > >Jay > >Peltz power. > >On Mar 23, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: > >>Hello Wrenches, >> >>We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has >>been tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of >>any arcing: the wiring and connections are all very tight. >> >>SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes >>from electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. >> >>What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc >>fault protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Drake >> >>Drake Chamberlin >>Athens Electric LLC >>OH License 44810 >>CO License 3773 >>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>740-448-7328 >>http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >>[] >> No threats detected. >> www.avast.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri Mar 25 12:48:39 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 12:48:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof In-Reply-To: <20160325133008.2529F208058@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160323210829.4A05A8C057@homiemail-a43.g.dreamhost.com> <705ABD1F-250E-4110-850D-469F785A5E09@gmail.com> <20160325133008.2529F208058@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <005501d186b6$2f68eb30$8e3ac190$@icloud.com> Drake, I am in the middle of debugging a AFCI error on a SMA 5000US-12 inverter. Installed by others. The fault does NOT have to be on the DC side. The inverter checks both AC and DC circuits for faults. There are more specific fault messages related to DC arc faults then just "AFCI", BUT a DC fault can still only trigger the AFCI message. All this is according to SMA. Check the wiring on the AC side also. If all is good, do some of the common sense things, which you may have done already. If multiple strings are into the inverter, disconnect completely all but one at time and see if any one string faults exclusively. I literally saw several loose MC connectors "blow up" when I was debugging string-by-string and the inverter started to pull current. Why they didn't when paralleled at the combiner I don't know. It can be very difficult to pin down. I agree with others to also check any field-crimped plug-and-play connectors for continuity. Despite all the issues I repaired in my case, the error still exists, and SMA has agreed to send a replacement. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AFCI trip on metal roof Hi Jay, Yes, they are the same, MC4. Drake At 11:11 AM 3/24/2016, you wrote: Hi drake. I've been researching problems with using the wrong connectors. Are your home runs using same brand connectors as the modules? Jay Peltz power. On Mar 23, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: Hello Wrenches, We have a project with an array on a large metal roof. The AFCI has been tripping. Investigating the system, there is no evidence of any arcing: the wiring and connections are all very tight. SMA tech support says it is likely that the nuisance tripping comes from electrical noise getting picked up by the large metal roof. What has been your overall experience with nuisance tripping of arc fault protection? What were the suspected causes? What was the solution? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ Description: Image removed by sender. [] No threats detected. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Description: Image removed by sender. This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com Fri Mar 25 23:04:31 2016 From: rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 22:04:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Access pathways Message-ID: Dear Solar Colleagues, I know the building code language regarding PV installations providing 3' access pathways was proposed and adopted in several states a few years ago. "*3113.1.2.1 Residential buildings with hip roof layouts.* Panels or modules installed on residential buildings with hip roof layouts shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/modules are located. The access pathway shall be located at a location on the building capable of supporting the live load of firefighters accessing the roof." (this is just a partial quote from here https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=1305.3113) This is a newly adopted code addition in MN, and there was absolutely no discussion with the solar industry. In MN we install solar on the south-facing roof as optimal, with perhaps the SE, SW, or even the east- or west-facing roof as possible options, but we almost without exception NEVER would mount solar panels on any roof with an azimuth 270 - 90 degrees (i.e. north of west or north of east). The requirement to leave a 3' walkway on all surfaces will in many cases diminish the amount of available roof surface for a residential solar PV installation to about 40% of previous designs. I see how this safety requirement may be necessary in a state where mounting solar panels on all roof surfaces is an option, but in MN since we can really only mount on the south-facing roof I don't understand how safety for fire fighters is a primary concern with this code addition. My understanding is that if there is another roof surface available, fire fighters would not choose to vent a roof with solar panels even if a 3' walkway is available -- so for what purpose are we avoiding that roof space for a solar installation? Our local folks at the state level either don't understand these details or feel that there must be an overriding reason that this building code language has been adopted in other states. Can any of you give me input, comments, thoughts on this topic that I could contribute here on a local level? Thank you in advance for your comments. Sincerely, Rebecca Lundberg NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® *Powerfully Green*® 763.438.1976 Powered by the Sun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 15:15:17 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 12:15:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Access pathways In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Rebecca, I can only suggest that you contact the local fire department/s and find out if they get on roofs, if they need access to that part of your roof etc. If they do not then that is something that you can then go back to the building dept and ask for a waiver. I have had success and heard of other successes with doing such things. Good luck jay peltz power > On Mar 25, 2016, at 8:04 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: > > Dear Solar Colleagues, > > I know the building code language regarding PV installations providing 3' access pathways was proposed and adopted in several states a few years ago. > > "3113.1.2.1 Residential buildings with hip roof layouts. Panels or modules installed on residential buildings with hip roof layouts shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/modules are located. The access pathway shall be located at a location on the building capable of supporting the live load of firefighters accessing the roof." (this is just a partial quote from here https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=1305.3113 ) > > This is a newly adopted code addition in MN, and there was absolutely no discussion with the solar industry. In MN we install solar on the south-facing roof as optimal, with perhaps the SE, SW, or even the east- or west-facing roof as possible options, but we almost without exception NEVER would mount solar panels on any roof with an azimuth 270 - 90 degrees (i.e. north of west or north of east). The requirement to leave a 3' walkway on all surfaces will in many cases diminish the amount of available roof surface for a residential solar PV installation to about 40% of previous designs. > > I see how this safety requirement may be necessary in a state where mounting solar panels on all roof surfaces is an option, but in MN since we can really only mount on the south-facing roof I don't understand how safety for fire fighters is a primary concern with this code addition. My understanding is that if there is another roof surface available, fire fighters would not choose to vent a roof with solar panels even if a 3' walkway is available -- so for what purpose are we avoiding that roof space for a solar installation? > > Our local folks at the state level either don't understand these details or feel that there must be an overriding reason that this building code language has been adopted in other states. Can any of you give me input, comments, thoughts on this topic that I could contribute here on a local level? > > Thank you in advance for your comments. > > Sincerely, > Rebecca Lundberg > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® > Powerfully Green® > 763.438.1976 <> > Powered by the Sun! > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 16:21:56 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 14:21:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Access pathways In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rebecca; Look into the Boulder, CO and Golden, CO Fire Marshal compromises on IFC setbacks, and also Oregon. These all put some common sense "intent of the code" perspective into the setback situation with a realistic look at what firefighters actually want. I do have these documents available. And also a powerpoint on IFC2012 and firefighter access that I presented at last year's NABCEP CE conference. If you or anyone else would like these documents, please contact me off list Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Rebecca Lundberg < rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com> wrote: > Dear Solar Colleagues, > > I know the building code language regarding PV installations providing 3' > access pathways was proposed and adopted in several states a few years ago. > > "*3113.1.2.1 Residential buildings with hip roof layouts.* Panels or > modules installed on residential buildings with hip roof layouts shall be > located in a manner that provides a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear access > pathway from the eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/modules > are located. The access pathway shall be located at a location on the > building capable of supporting the live load of firefighters accessing the > roof." (this is just a partial quote from here > https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=1305.3113) > > This is a newly adopted code addition in MN, and there was absolutely no > discussion with the solar industry. In MN we install solar on the > south-facing roof as optimal, with perhaps the SE, SW, or even the east- or > west-facing roof as possible options, but we almost without exception NEVER > would mount solar panels on any roof with an azimuth 270 - 90 degrees (i.e. > north of west or north of east). The requirement to leave a 3' walkway on > all surfaces will in many cases diminish the amount of available roof > surface for a residential solar PV installation to about 40% of previous > designs. > > I see how this safety requirement may be necessary in a state where > mounting solar panels on all roof surfaces is an option, but in MN since we > can really only mount on the south-facing roof I don't understand how > safety for fire fighters is a primary concern with this code addition. My > understanding is that if there is another roof surface available, fire > fighters would not choose to vent a roof with solar panels even if a 3' > walkway is available -- so for what purpose are we avoiding that roof space > for a solar installation? > > Our local folks at the state level either don't understand these details > or feel that there must be an overriding reason that this building code > language has been adopted in other states. Can any of you give me input, > comments, thoughts on this topic that I could contribute here on a local > level? > > Thank you in advance for your comments. > > Sincerely, > Rebecca Lundberg > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® > *Powerfully Green*® > 763.438.1976 > > Powered by the Sun! > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.brearley at solarprofessional.com Sat Mar 26 19:13:35 2016 From: david.brearley at solarprofessional.com (David Brearley) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 18:13:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Access pathways (Rebecca Lundberg) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46A35CEC-4CCA-485F-AE29-CEDFD08FA672@solarprofessional.com> Hi, Rebecca. Based on the numbering systems and language, MN has incorporate NFPA 1: Fire Code requirements at the state level. The language and requirements in the International Fire Code are similar. You can access a free PDF version of NFPA 1 here: http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages?mode=code&code=1 When it comes to enforcement, there are important differences between NFPA 70 (aka National Electrical Code) requirements and those in NFPA 1. If the NEC says you have to provide rapid shutdown, for example, then chances are your AHJ will require that you meet these requirements. However, if the Fire Code says that you need to provide a 3’ setback on residential roofs, there are a number of scenarios where an AHJ might not require this in practice. These include situations where: access to adjacent roof planes provides firefighters with adequate opportunities for roof ventilation [typically determined in real time on a case-by-case basis] the local fire department does not fight residential structure fires by ventilating roofs [typically determined in advance at the jurisdiction level] the roof or structure is smaller than some pre-determined amount [typically determined at the jurisdiction level] the local fire marshall has adopted less restrictive access requirements (perhaps 12” rather than 36”) [typically determined at the jurisdiction level] It’s entirely possible to get stakeholders together adapt the fire code requirements at the city, county or even state level. It is also possible to adapt the requirements on a case-by-case basis. The latter is obviously more work for everyone. The main point is that complying with fire codes can be be more of a conversation than complying with the NEC. Here’s a link to an article that discusses both the residential fire code requirements as well as a variety of compliance and enforcement strategies: http://solarprofessional.com/articles/design-installation/pitched-roof-array-layout-for-fire-code-compliance?v=disable_pagination If you’d like a PDF copy of the article, just send me a direct message. David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brearley at solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 Follow us on Twitter: @SolarPro Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh > On Mar 26, 2016, at 1:04 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. > Today's Topics: > > 1. Access pathways (Rebecca Lundberg) > > From: Rebecca Lundberg > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Access pathways > Date: March 25, 2016 at 10:04:31 PM CDT > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > > Dear Solar Colleagues, > > I know the building code language regarding PV installations providing 3' access pathways was proposed and adopted in several states a few years ago. > > "3113.1.2.1 Residential buildings with hip roof layouts. Panels or modules installed on residential buildings with hip roof layouts shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/modules are located. The access pathway shall be located at a location on the building capable of supporting the live load of firefighters accessing the roof." (this is just a partial quote from here https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=1305.3113 ) > > This is a newly adopted code addition in MN, and there was absolutely no discussion with the solar industry. In MN we install solar on the south-facing roof as optimal, with perhaps the SE, SW, or even the east- or west-facing roof as possible options, but we almost without exception NEVER would mount solar panels on any roof with an azimuth 270 - 90 degrees (i.e. north of west or north of east). The requirement to leave a 3' walkway on all surfaces will in many cases diminish the amount of available roof surface for a residential solar PV installation to about 40% of previous designs. > > I see how this safety requirement may be necessary in a state where mounting solar panels on all roof surfaces is an option, but in MN since we can really only mount on the south-facing roof I don't understand how safety for fire fighters is a primary concern with this code addition. My understanding is that if there is another roof surface available, fire fighters would not choose to vent a roof with solar panels even if a 3' walkway is available -- so for what purpose are we avoiding that roof space for a solar installation? > > Our local folks at the state level either don't understand these details or feel that there must be an overriding reason that this building code language has been adopted in other states. Can any of you give me input, comments, thoughts on this topic that I could contribute here on a local level? > > Thank you in advance for your comments. > > Sincerely, > Rebecca Lundberg > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® > Powerfully Green® > 763.438.1976 <> > Powered by the Sun! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sun Mar 27 09:58:01 2016 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 08:58:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Glue-on type modules References: Message-ID: <390A923F40CD44D7B2AA314E9CD15639@PeterPC> Howie Sorry for the late reply. Mia Solar has them now. peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Howie Michaelson To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 3:08 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Glue-on type modules Hi all, It has been years since I used Uni-solar PVL modules and have had little call for or interest in amorphous glue-on modules, so I'm a bit out of the loop. Does anyone know anything about that market? I've searched the archives and see no recent references, and the only thing I can find on the web are old Uni-solar modules on Amazon. Thanks, Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 19:59:08 2016 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:59:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Access pathways In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2015228201.1104334.1459123148782.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> The Death Knell of the Solar Electric Industry for residential roofs is the loss of available space. The mistake we see made over and over and over again is local jurisdictions  copying and pasting code hostile to the solar industry birthed as "suggested practices" for California and then making it law without any thought as to what devastating effect such actions have on the solar industry.  This is exactly what happened on Oregon. But, one person going up against the entire 12 person, governor appointed board to develop code for the state, said, "NO WAY".  The fight was brutal and went all the way to the governor's desk.  Finally, the 25% rule was established... It should have been the 40% rule. 1.1. Where the PV array does not exceed 25% as measured in plan view of total roof area of the structure, a minimum 12 inch (305mm) unobstructed pathway, shall be maintained along each side of any horizontal ridge. 1.2. Where the solar array area exceeds 25% as measured in plan view of total roof area of the structure, a minimum of one 36 inch (914 mm) unobstructed pathway from ridge to eave, over a structurally supported area, must be provided in addition to a minimum 12 inch (305 mm) unobstructed pathway along each side of any horizontal ridge Unless, we are going to require fire person friendly roofs everywhere that would also outlaw steep roofs, slate roofs, slick roofs, wood roofs and snow on roofs there is no reason to single out the solar industry with such toxic requirements.  Home Power and Solar Pro publish photo after photo after photo of PV installations that would fail the requirements so rapidly spreading across the nation like wild fire. For the Love of Solar and the Environment, Folks, put up your dukes! As Respectfully Submitted as Possible,   Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc.Since 1987,Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com "Better one's House too little one daythan too big all the Year after." On Saturday, March 26, 2016 1:22 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Rebecca; Look into the Boulder, CO and Golden, CO Fire Marshal compromises on IFC setbacks, and also Oregon. These all put some common sense "intent of the code" perspective into the setback situation with a realistic look at what firefighters actually want.I do have these documents available. And also a powerpoint on IFC2012 and firefighter access that I presented at last year's NABCEP CE conference. If you or anyone else would like these documents, please contact me off list  Dan FinkAdjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech InstituteIREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional~ Small Wind InstallerExecutive Director, Buckville EnergyNABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342   On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: Dear Solar Colleagues, I know the building code language regarding PV installations providing 3' access pathways was proposed and adopted in several states a few years ago. "3113.1.2.1 Residential buildings with hip roof layouts. Panels or modules installed on residential buildings with hip roof layouts shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/modules are located. The access pathway shall be located at a location on the building capable of supporting the live load of firefighters accessing the roof." (this is just a partial quote from here https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=1305.3113) This is a newly adopted code addition in MN, and there was absolutely no discussion with the solar industry. In MN we install solar on the south-facing roof as optimal, with perhaps the SE, SW, or even the east- or west-facing roof as possible options, but we almost without exception NEVER would mount solar panels on any roof with an azimuth 270 - 90 degrees (i.e. north of west or north of east). The requirement to leave a 3' walkway on all surfaces will in many cases diminish the amount of available roof surface for a residential solar PV installation to about 40% of previous designs. I see how this safety requirement may be necessary in a state where mounting solar panels on all roof surfaces is an option, but in MN since we can really only mount on the south-facing roof I don't understand how safety for fire fighters is a primary concern with this code addition. My understanding is that if there is another roof surface available, fire fighters would not choose to vent a roof with solar panels even if a 3' walkway is available -- so for what purpose are we avoiding that roof space for a solar installation? Our local folks at the state level either don't understand these details or feel that there must be an overriding reason that this building code language has been adopted in other states. Can any of you give me input, comments, thoughts on this topic that I could contribute here on a local level? Thank you in advance for your comments. Sincerely, Rebecca Lundberg NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® Powerfully Green® 763.438.1976Poweredby the Sun! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Mar 28 15:44:00 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 12:44:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters Message-ID: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid system for a state highway department facility. We will be using the Outback Optics data capabilities along with equipment manufactured by Control by Web. I’d like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so I can hope to use it when we need it most, when the power is down. We have a separate 24 volt battery bank remaining from a previous generator control system. The satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps. My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 volts. Do any of you know of one that you could recommend? My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone suggest one at this small wattage? I don’t know how good the power supply is at rejecting waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs to be somewhat close to a sine wave. Thanks in advance. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Mar 28 16:09:41 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 15:09:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters In-Reply-To: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> References: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001259ED-B44D-4A09-B4A4-79D8A005A0FB@mavericksolar.com> Two choices 1. Samlex DC-DC converter. I've used the 12V version with success. Here is a fancy 24V version. Running the loads directly. http://www.samlexamerica.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=181 2. Morningstar SunSaver MPPT 15L charge controller charging the 24V battery bank. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® President & CEO Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. > On Mar 28, 2016, at 2:44 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid system for a state highway department facility. We will be using the Outback Optics data capabilities along with equipment manufactured by Control by Web. > > I’d like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so I can hope to use it when we need it most, when the power is down. We have a separate 24 volt battery bank remaining from a previous generator control system. The satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps. > > My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 volts. Do any of you know of one that you could recommend? > > My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone suggest one at this small wattage? I don’t know how good the power supply is at rejecting waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs to be somewhat close to a sine wave. > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 16:24:47 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 14:24:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters In-Reply-To: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> References: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William; 30VDC is kind of odd, but 36VDC is common. The folks at Solar Converters might be able to fix you up with a custom one, or perhaps 36V is within the sat unit's input range. As for the inverter, I've never gone wrong with the Morningstar SureSine. Slick little unit. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:44 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid system for > a state highway department facility. We will be using the Outback Optics > data capabilities along with equipment manufactured by Control by Web. > > > > I’d like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so I can > hope to use it when we need it most, when the power is down. We have a > separate 24 volt battery bank remaining from a previous generator control > system. The satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps. > > > > My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 volts. Do > any of you know of one that you could recommend? > > > > My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone suggest one at > this small wattage? I don’t know how good the power supply is at rejecting > waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs to be somewhat close to > a sine wave. > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 28 18:47:20 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 16:47:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters In-Reply-To: References: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <56F9B478.9060101@solarray.com> What about building a 30 vdc system (5 x 6v batteries in series) and adjust the settings on a Midnite Classic to work with that? How tight does the 30 vdc output need to be? On inverters, I've had trouble with the Suresine, basically not working with GFCI outlets. I keep trying different models of GFCIs, but they keep randomly tripping on 2 different systems. Morningstar's list of "approved" GFCIs doesn't list any currently manufactured models, while calls to their tech support yields "Oh, that shouldn't be a problem, it should work with all GFCIs..." Way too many free trips out trying to fix this, so I may have to abandon GFCI protection, or replace the inverters. My suggestion for that small load: Exeltech 125. Better than grid waveform, and I recently pulled one out of corroded outdoor enclosure almost 15 years old: it looked terrible, but was still working fine. It would also be lower cost and fit in a smaller enclosure. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/28/2016 2:24 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Hi William; > 30VDC is kind of odd, but 36VDC is common. The folks at Solar > Converters might be able to fix you up with a custom one, or perhaps > 36V is within the sat unit's input range. > As for the inverter, I've never gone wrong with the Morningstar > SureSine. Slick little unit. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:44 PM, William Miller > > wrote: > > Friends: > > I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid > system for a state highway department facility. We will be using > the Outback Optics data capabilities along with equipment > manufactured by Control by Web. > > I’d like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so > I can hope to use it when we need it most, when the power is > down. We have a separate 24 volt battery bank remaining from a > previous generator control system. The satellite system operates > on 30 VDC at 2 amps. > > My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 > volts. Do any of you know of one that you could recommend? > > My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone suggest > one at this small wattage? I don’t know how good the power supply > is at rejecting waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs > to be somewhat close to a sine wave. > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 18:55:41 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 12:55:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters In-Reply-To: <56F9B478.9060101@solarray.com> References: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> <56F9B478.9060101@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Well i agree with every one, tha Samlex is great, morning atar charge controllers again grean, and the question about the operating volts also great, l have done stuff very close and the battery volts may have a wide range Jerry On Mar 28, 2016 12:47 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > What about building a 30 vdc system (5 x 6v batteries in series) and > adjust the settings on a Midnite Classic to work with that? How tight does > the 30 vdc output need to be? > > On inverters, I've had trouble with the Suresine, basically not working > with GFCI outlets. > I keep trying different models of GFCIs, but they keep randomly tripping > on 2 different systems. > Morningstar's list of "approved" GFCIs doesn't list any currently > manufactured models, while calls to their tech support yields "Oh, that > shouldn't be a problem, it should work with all GFCIs..." > Way too many free trips out trying to fix this, so I may have to abandon > GFCI protection, or replace the inverters. > My suggestion for that small load: Exeltech 125. Better than grid > waveform, and I recently pulled one out of corroded outdoor enclosure > almost 15 years old: it looked terrible, but was still working fine. It > would also be lower cost and fit in a smaller enclosure. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 3/28/2016 2:24 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Hi William; > 30VDC is kind of odd, but 36VDC is common. The folks at Solar Converters > might be able to fix you up with a custom one, or perhaps 36V is within the > sat unit's input range. > As for the inverter, I've never gone wrong with the Morningstar SureSine. > Slick little unit. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:44 PM, William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid system for >> a state highway department facility. We will be using the Outback Optics >> data capabilities along with equipment manufactured by Control by Web. >> >> >> >> I’d like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so I can >> hope to use it when we need it most, when the power is down. We have a >> separate 24 volt battery bank remaining from a previous generator control >> system. The satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps. >> >> >> >> My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 volts. >> Do any of you know of one that you could recommend? >> >> >> >> My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone suggest one at >> this small wattage? I don’t know how good the power supply is at rejecting >> waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs to be somewhat close to >> a sine wave. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> [image: Gradient Cap_mini] >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 19:21:10 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 17:21:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters In-Reply-To: <56F9B478.9060101@solarray.com> References: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> <56F9B478.9060101@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray; I've even had problems with Magnums and Outbacks not working with certain GFCI outlets.I usually just avoid installing GFCIs in tiny, remote off-grid systems designed for a specialty application with no electrical inspector involved or required. GFCIs cause all kinds of mischief with equipment and are a phantom load. I put them in the same league as hard-wired 120VAC smoke detectors off the grid. Exeltech inverters are certainly the most quiet RFI-wise, but the low efficiency, $ and no-load draw are a bummer. With William's application, I'd avoid the inverter entirely and go DC, then you have no GFCI or AC codes. If the sat link DC input specs allow 36VDC input, you have many off-the shelf options available for a boost/buck power supply from 24VDC. Digikey even. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > What about building a 30 vdc system (5 x 6v batteries in series) and > adjust the settings on a Midnite Classic to work with that? How tight does > the 30 vdc output need to be? > > On inverters, I've had trouble with the Suresine, basically not working > with GFCI outlets. > I keep trying different models of GFCIs, but they keep randomly tripping > on 2 different systems. > Morningstar's list of "approved" GFCIs doesn't list any currently > manufactured models, while calls to their tech support yields "Oh, that > shouldn't be a problem, it should work with all GFCIs..." > Way too many free trips out trying to fix this, so I may have to abandon > GFCI protection, or replace the inverters. > My suggestion for that small load: Exeltech 125. Better than grid > waveform, and I recently pulled one out of corroded outdoor enclosure > almost 15 years old: it looked terrible, but was still working fine. It > would also be lower cost and fit in a smaller enclosure. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 3/28/2016 2:24 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Hi William; > 30VDC is kind of odd, but 36VDC is common. The folks at Solar Converters > might be able to fix you up with a custom one, or perhaps 36V is within the > sat unit's input range. > As for the inverter, I've never gone wrong with the Morningstar SureSine. > Slick little unit. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:44 PM, William Miller < > william at millersolar.com> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid system for >> a state highway department facility. We will be using the Outback Optics >> data capabilities along with equipment manufactured by Control by Web. >> >> >> >> I’d like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so I can >> hope to use it when we need it most, when the power is down. We have a >> separate 24 volt battery bank remaining from a previous generator control >> system. The satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps. >> >> >> >> My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 volts. >> Do any of you know of one that you could recommend? >> >> >> >> My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone suggest one at >> this small wattage? I don’t know how good the power supply is at rejecting >> waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs to be somewhat close to >> a sine wave. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> [image: Gradient Cap_mini] >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Mar 28 19:58:26 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 16:58:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters In-Reply-To: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> References: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <376202CA-68ED-4378-92E4-284415D48819@starlightsolar.com> William, Over the years I have discovered that many published voltage specifications for equipment, like SCADA radios for example, are nominal voltages but actually can be powered from a broad range of voltages The internal PS circuit handles delivering the correct voltage. 30 volts is an odd spec so if you can get your hands on the unit, apply a variable DC supply to discover the true operating range. You may be surprised that it functions just fine with your existing power system. Save cost and KISS. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 28, 2016, at 12:44 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid system for a state highway department facility. We will be using the Outback Optics data capabilities along with equipment manufactured by Control by Web. I’d like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so I can hope to use it when we need it most, when the power is down. We have a separate 24 volt battery bank remaining from a previous generator control system. The satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps. My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 volts. Do any of you know of one that you could recommend? My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone suggest one at this small wattage? I don’t know how good the power supply is at rejecting waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs to be somewhat close to a sine wave. Thanks in advance. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 18:45:43 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 15:45:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters In-Reply-To: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> References: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi william Solar converters make voltage adjustable power supplies. Their website was down for some reason. But I found this that should help for your information. https://www.altestore.com/store/voltage-converters/dc-to-dc-voltage-converters/constant-voltage-regulator/up-converter-constant-voltage-regulator/cv1236-8-12v-36v-8a-voltage-regulator-p5503/ Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 28, 2016, at 12:44 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid system for a state highway department facility. We will be using the Outback Optics data capabilities along with equipment manufactured by Control by Web. > > I’d like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so I can hope to use it when we need it most, when the power is down. We have a separate 24 volt battery bank remaining from a previous generator control system. The satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps. > > My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 volts. Do any of you know of one that you could recommend? > > My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone suggest one at this small wattage? I don’t know how good the power supply is at rejecting waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs to be somewhat close to a sine wave. > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 28 23:19:57 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 21:19:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GFCI? was DC to DC Converters In-Reply-To: References: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> <56F9B478.9060101@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56F9F45D.8050209@solarray.com> Hi Dan; Yep, GFCIs an be a pain, but I really haven't had trouble in several years. This is for a stand alone PV powered ATM machine, so it sees a lot of public interaction. I wasn't keen on not having GFCI protection. I was actually going to ask the list's opinion on this: to GFCI or not to GFCI, that is the question. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/28/2016 5:21 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Ray; > I've even had problems with Magnums and Outbacks not working with > certain GFCI outlets.I usually just avoid installing GFCIs in tiny, > remote off-grid systems designed for a specialty application with no > electrical inspector involved or required. GFCIs cause all kinds of > mischief with equipment and are a phantom load. I put them in the same > league as hard-wired 120VAC smoke detectors off the grid. > > Exeltech inverters are certainly the most quiet RFI-wise, but the low > efficiency, $ and no-load draw are a bummer. > > With William's application, I'd avoid the inverter entirely and go DC, > then you have no GFCI or AC codes. If the sat link DC input specs > allow 36VDC input, you have many off-the shelf options available for a > boost/buck power supply from 24VDC. Digikey even. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > What about building a 30 vdc system (5 x 6v batteries in series) > and adjust the settings on a Midnite Classic to work with that? > How tight does the 30 vdc output need to be? > > On inverters, I've had trouble with the Suresine, basically not > working with GFCI outlets. > I keep trying different models of GFCIs, but they keep randomly > tripping on 2 different systems. > Morningstar's list of "approved" GFCIs doesn't list any currently > manufactured models, while calls to their tech support yields "Oh, > that shouldn't be a problem, it should work with all GFCIs..." > Way too many free trips out trying to fix this, so I may have to > abandon GFCI protection, or replace the inverters. > My suggestion for that small load: Exeltech 125. Better than grid > waveform, and I recently pulled one out of corroded outdoor > enclosure almost 15 years old: it looked terrible, but was still > working fine. It would also be lower cost and fit in a smaller > enclosure. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/28/2016 2:24 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >> Hi William; >> 30VDC is kind of odd, but 36VDC is common. The folks at Solar >> Converters might be able to fix you up with a custom one, or >> perhaps 36V is within the sat unit's input range. >> As for the inverter, I've never gone wrong with the Morningstar >> SureSine. Slick little unit. >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:44 PM, William Miller >> > wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> I am designing a satellite data interface for a large >> off-grid system for a state highway department facility. We >> will be using the Outback Optics data capabilities along with >> equipment manufactured by Control by Web. >> >> I’d like to run the satellite system on a battery power >> source so I can hope to use it when we need it most, when the >> power is down. We have a separate 24 volt battery bank >> remaining from a previous generator control system. The >> satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps. >> >> My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal >> 24 volts. Do any of you know of one that you could recommend? >> >> My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone >> suggest one at this small wattage? I don’t know how good the >> power supply is at rejecting waveform distortion so I presume >> an inverter needs to be somewhat close to a sine wave. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> >> Gradient Cap_mini >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ceaeeidb.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 142112 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Mon Mar 28 23:37:13 2016 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 23:37:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters In-Reply-To: <56F9B478.9060101@solarray.com> References: <49ad3810bbd80495796c329142288eda@mail.gmail.com> <56F9B478.9060101@solarray.com> Message-ID: <014301d1896c$49810300$dc830900$@net> I've had good luck with both the SureSine from Morningstar and Exeltech for inverters. Couldn't tell you the noise output. Also, you may want to try Solar Converters Inc, or Samlex for DC to DC converters. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Phone: 413 883-3144 Spirit Solar www.SpiritSolar.net From: Ray Walters [mailto:ray at solarray.com] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 6:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC to DC converters What about building a 30 vdc system (5 x 6v batteries in series) and adjust the settings on a Midnite Classic to work with that? How tight does the 30 vdc output need to be? On inverters, I've had trouble with the Suresine, basically not working with GFCI outlets. I keep trying different models of GFCIs, but they keep randomly tripping on 2 different systems. Morningstar's list of "approved" GFCIs doesn't list any currently manufactured models, while calls to their tech support yields "Oh, that shouldn't be a problem, it should work with all GFCIs..." Way too many free trips out trying to fix this, so I may have to abandon GFCI protection, or replace the inverters. My suggestion for that small load: Exeltech 125. Better than grid waveform, and I recently pulled one out of corroded outdoor enclosure almost 15 years old: it looked terrible, but was still working fine. It would also be lower cost and fit in a smaller enclosure. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/28/2016 2:24 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Hi William; 30VDC is kind of odd, but 36VDC is common. The folks at Solar Converters might be able to fix you up with a custom one, or perhaps 36V is within the sat unit's input range. As for the inverter, I've never gone wrong with the Morningstar SureSine. Slick little unit. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified InstructorT for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education ProvidersT 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:44 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am designing a satellite data interface for a large off-grid system for a state highway department facility. We will be using the Outback Optics data capabilities along with equipment manufactured by Control by Web. I'd like to run the satellite system on a battery power source so I can hope to use it when we need it most, when the power is down. We have a separate 24 volt battery bank remaining from a previous generator control system. The satellite system operates on 30 VDC at 2 amps. My first choice is to find a DC to DC converter from nominal 24 volts. Do any of you know of one that you could recommend? My second choice is to use a small inverter. Can anyone suggest one at this small wattage? I don't know how good the power supply is at rejecting waveform distortion so I presume an inverter needs to be somewhat close to a sine wave. Thanks in advance. William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Mar 31 10:23:56 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:23:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?iso-8859-1?q?TriStar_MPPT=99_600V?= Message-ID: <20160331142359.92706AE069@homiemail-a91.g.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, Has anyone had experience with the TriStar MPPT™ 600V, using the transfer switch for backing up grid tied PV systems? This approach looks really good. What has been your experience? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Thu Mar 31 13:19:20 2016 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:19:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount Message-ID: <20160331101920.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.3a813701cf.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> We're considering moving away from concrete footings where appropriate on GM projects. I am have not used any helical anchor systems and am curious about the efficiency of the helical anchor system in resi applications. Specifically, am I going to need soil compaction tests and/or geo survey with a P.G. stamp? What is the AHJ going to be looking for? As always, I appreciate any input! Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Thu Mar 31 13:47:13 2016 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:47:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120% Rule on subpanel or main Message-ID: <20160331104713.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.6a947b1f11.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Hi Wrenches, I know I have seen this somewhere before but can't seem to locate it in the archives. Recently and AHJ rejected our plans because, although we were compliant with the 120% rule applied to the busbar on the existing sub which was our solar PCC, the existing breaker feeding the existing sub (our PCC) exceeded the 120% as it applied to the bus in the main. I was under the impression that the 120% applies to the bus at the PCC and that existing equipment "downstream" or "upstream" of the PCC need not be retrofitted to comply with the 120% rule (conductor ampacity aside). Cheers, Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 31 14:04:20 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 11:04:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount In-Reply-To: <20160331101920.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.3a813701cf.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20160331101920.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.3a813701cf.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <37f1de748fcf846f65b8faac802d61a2@mail.gmail.com> Eric: Have you considered driven-pipe? Hereabouts there are several contractors set up with Bob-cat mounted drivers for corral fencing. They are also equipped to weld. We have been using driven pipe for DPW LGM arrays. Recently we came upon a steep E-W slope that needed a low profile PV. Every off-the-shelf solution requires a 90 degree angle between the verticals and the horizontals. This would make an array very tall down-slope. The contractor was able to drive verticals and then custom fit “horizontals” parallel with the slope. See image below. We used only the top brackets and rails from the LGM package and it worked out quite well. We moved the verticals out-board 8” front and back and wrapped the entire assembly in 1”X2” stock fencing to prevent access to wiring. One local jurisdiction requires no engineering for structures less than 6’ in height. Others require engineering on all ground mounts, so you see the response can be varied. We have found a couple structural engineers that are quite reasonable in cost, typically $300-400. Driven pipe passed structural analysis for us only for low tilt arrays. High-tilt arrays became impractical due to requirements to drive pipe excessively deep. Engineering did allow us to reduce the amount of concrete on the packaged designs provided by DPW. Good luck, William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *eric at harvesthesun.com *Sent:* Thursday, March 31, 2016 10:19 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Ian.isbell at thatsbyers.com *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount We're considering moving away from concrete footings where appropriate on GM projects. I am have not used any helical anchor systems and am curious about the efficiency of the helical anchor system in resi applications. Specifically, am I going to need soil compaction tests and/or geo survey with a P.G. stamp? What is the AHJ going to be looking for? As always, I appreciate any input! Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 173115 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1459 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Mar 31 14:38:01 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:38:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount In-Reply-To: <20160331101920.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.3a813701cf.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20160331101920.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.3a813701cf.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <011501d18b7c$74aebfb0$5e0c3f10$@solarandwindfx.com> Eric, I’ve been researching this for almost two years now and finally decided to go with Zilla for a 40 module system. I have a heavy clay soil and nothing has been required for permitting or the AHJ. I will have to purchase their adapter to fit any pto post hole digger for about $500 but expect to make that back over a couple of projects. However the real issue came when I got the finalized numbers from them and a normal freight of around $400-600 was expected. Surprise, the cost was just shy of $1,500! Ouch. Well there goes the margin. Apparently because they provide their truss system as a pre-fab which makes them extremely difficult for the shipper and puts them in a higher freight class. So I asked that they provide an option with the truss broken down. We can do the assembly on site. This is something at this time they are unwilling to do without additional fees. While the customer service response has been timely it is obvious to me that this is something that they clearly do not want to do. Of course this has always been our albatross here on the east coast with most racking system being fabricated west of the Mississippi. So while I look forward to trying the helical pier until they come up with a breakdown option of their ground racking system I suggest you look elsewhere. I hope this helps. Let me know who else out there has a helical pier product. Christopher Chris Schaefer’s SolarWindFX Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com Sent: Thursday, 31 March, 2016 13:19 To: RE-wrenches Cc: Ian.isbell at thatsbyers.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount We're considering moving away from concrete footings where appropriate on GM projects. I am have not used any helical anchor systems and am curious about the efficiency of the helical anchor system in resi applications. Specifically, am I going to need soil compaction tests and/or geo survey with a P.G. stamp? What is the AHJ going to be looking for? As always, I appreciate any input! Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 12101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 44233 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 23897 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Mar 31 18:24:17 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 18:24:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120% Rule on subpanel or main In-Reply-To: <20160331104713.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.6a947b1f11.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20160331104713.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.6a947b1f11.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <56FDA391.9050707@entech-engineering.com> What NEC code cycle are you in? It was changed in 2008. Attached is an article from John Wiles in Home Power Code Corner. Chris On 3/31/2016 1:47 PM, eric at harvesthesun.com wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > I know I have seen this somewhere before but can't seem to locate it > in the archives. Recently and AHJ rejected our plans because, although > we were compliant with the 120% rule applied to the busbar on the > existing sub which was our solar PCC, the existing breaker feeding the > existing sub (our PCC) exceeded the 120% as it applied to the bus in > the main. I was under the impression that the 120% applies to the bus > at the PCC and that existing equipment "downstream" or "upstream" of > the PCC need not be retrofitted to comply with the 120% rule > (conductor ampacity aside). > Cheers, > Eric Stikes > Founding Director & CEO > Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. > www.goodsun.life > (530)798-3738 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NEC 2008 grid connection CC126.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 364564 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From conradg at cape.com Thu Mar 31 18:25:02 2016 From: conradg at cape.com (Conrad Geyser) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 18:25:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? Message-ID: Anybody have a favorite reflective label maker that they would care to share the info on? Conrad Cotuit Solar LLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Mar 31 18:29:23 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 18:29:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount In-Reply-To: <011501d18b7c$74aebfb0$5e0c3f10$@solarandwindfx.com> References: <20160331101920.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.3a813701cf.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> <011501d18b7c$74aebfb0$5e0c3f10$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <56FDA4C3.4020100@entech-engineering.com> We've been using Krinner helical ground screws with good success. There are other similar brands available. I want to make sure that your term of anchors is the same as for screws. What we call helical ground anchors has a very different shape and wouldn't use them for solar. Chris On 3/31/2016 2:38 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Eric, > > I’ve been researching this for almost two years now and finally > decided to go with Zilla for a 40 module system. I have a heavy clay > soil and nothing has been required for permitting or the AHJ. I will > have to purchase their adapter to fit any pto post hole digger for > about $500 but expect to make that back over a couple of projects. > However the real issue came when I got the finalized numbers from them > and a normal freight of around $400-600 was expected. Surprise, the > cost was just shy of $1,500! Ouch. Well there goes the margin. > Apparently because they provide their truss system as a pre-fab which > makes them extremely difficult for the shipper and puts them in a > higher freight class. So I asked that they provide an option with the > truss broken down. We can do the assembly on site. This is something > at this time they are unwilling to do without additional fees. While > the customer service response has been timely it is obvious to me that > this is something that they clearly do not want to do. Of course this > has always been our albatross here on the east coast with most racking > system being fabricated west of the Mississippi. So while I look > forward to trying the helical pier until they come up with a breakdown > option of their ground racking system I suggest you look elsewhere. I > hope this helps. Let me know who else out there has a helical pier > product. > > Christopher > > Chris Schaefer’s > > SolarWindFX > > / Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 / > > / 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424/ > > /www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *eric at harvesthesun.com > *Sent:* Thursday, 31 March, 2016 13:19 > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Ian.isbell at thatsbyers.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount > > We're considering moving away from concrete footings where appropriate > on GM projects. I am have not used any helical anchor systems and am > curious about the efficiency of the helical anchor system in resi > applications. Specifically, am I going to need soil compaction tests > and/or geo survey with a P.G. stamp? What is the AHJ going to be > looking for? As always, I appreciate any input! > > Eric Stikes > > Founding Director & CEO > > Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. > > www.goodsun.life > > (530)798-3738 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. 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Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 18:59:15 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:59:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback VFX outdoor enclosure Message-ID: <0CA4587D-E026-4EE1-A5C0-33762D348BF1@gmail.com> Hi all Any recommendations for an outdoor enclosure For a vfxr outback? No cc but will need a mate 3. Thanks Jay Peltz power. From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 1 07:47:44 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 07:47:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56FE5FE0.8040702@entech-engineering.com> We have been using DuroLabel Pro for over a year. Very good support. The negative is having to change colors if AHJs are going to want to follow the ANSI color requirements, but that is probably true for most printers. The labels are durable. I made some for my oyster farm to id equipment as an experiment. They have been submerged in salt water for 5 months and don't appear to be deteriorating. Chris On 3/31/2016 6:25 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote: > Anybody have a favorite reflective label maker that they would care to > share the info on? > > Conrad > Cotuit Solar LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 1 10:50:09 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 07:50:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? In-Reply-To: <56FE5FE0.8040702@entech-engineering.com> References: <56FE5FE0.8040702@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <050201d18c25$ca3ed8d0$5ebc8a70$@sbcglobal.net> Chris, Just to add a fine point of clarification, 690.31(G)(4) requires that the "warning" sign on conduit be Reflective, Capitalized, with white lettering on Red background. This intentionally does not match the ANSI color schemes for signs. The NEC overrules ANSI in this case. If AHJs require that these labels be orange, these signs will not officially be compliant with the NEC. These signs were in the fire code and were removed and put into the NEC to keep all electrical requirements in the NEC. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 4:48 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? We have been using DuroLabel Pro for over a year. Very good support. The negative is having to change colors if AHJs are going to want to follow the ANSI color requirements, but that is probably true for most printers. The labels are durable. I made some for my oyster farm to id equipment as an experiment. They have been submerged in salt water for 5 months and don't appear to be deteriorating. Chris On 3/31/2016 6:25 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote: Anybody have a favorite reflective label maker that they would care to share the info on? Conrad Cotuit Solar LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri Apr 1 10:26:11 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 10:26:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? In-Reply-To: <56FE5FE0.8040702@entech-engineering.com> References: <56FE5FE0.8040702@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <002401d18c22$71873c80$5495b580$@icloud.com> www.creativesafetysupply.com - their Labeltac4 line of printers are good. They require a computer usb port, i.e. not all that portable, but are quite versatile, they supply lots of templates you can customize in Microsoft word. Also offer reflective label tape to print on. Not cheap, I paid about $700 3 years ago for one, but no problems. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 7:48 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? We have been using DuroLabel Pro for over a year. Very good support. The negative is having to change colors if AHJs are going to want to follow the ANSI color requirements, but that is probably true for most printers. The labels are durable. I made some for my oyster farm to id equipment as an experiment. They have been submerged in salt water for 5 months and don't appear to be deteriorating. Chris On 3/31/2016 6:25 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote: Anybody have a favorite reflective label maker that they would care to share the info on? Conrad Cotuit Solar LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 1 12:10:39 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:10:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? In-Reply-To: <050201d18c25$ca3ed8d0$5ebc8a70$@sbcglobal.net> References: <56FE5FE0.8040702@entech-engineering.com> <050201d18c25$ca3ed8d0$5ebc8a70$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56FE9D7F.6030304@entech-engineering.com> Thanks Bill, are there other areas where we should look only to the NEC=20 for coloring? Right now, we are using white lettering on a red=20 background and the NEC language for all labels (mainly because that's=20 the stock we initially purchased and still have it). I think there are:=20 Danger, Warning, Caution, and Notice. Chris On 4/1/2016 10:50 AM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > Chris, > > Just to add a fine point of clarification, 690.31(G)(4) requires that=20 > the =E2=80=9Cwarning=E2=80=9D sign on conduit be Reflective, Capitalized,= with white=20 > lettering on Red background. This intentionally does not match the=20 > ANSI color schemes for signs. The NEC overrules ANSI in this case. > > If AHJs require that these labels be orange, these signs will not=20 > officially be compliant with the NEC. These signs were in the fire=20 > code and were removed and put into the NEC to keep all electrical=20 > requirements in the NEC. > > Bill. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Friday, April 01, 2016 4:48 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? > > We have been using DuroLabel Pro for over a year. Very good support.=20 > The negative is having to change colors if AHJs are going to want to=20 > follow the ANSI color requirements, but that is probably true for most=20 > printers. The labels are durable. I made some for my oyster farm to id=20 > equipment as an experiment. They have been submerged in salt water for=20 > 5 months and don't appear to be deteriorating. Chris > > On 3/31/2016 6:25 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote: > > Anybody have a favorite reflective label maker that they would > care to share the info on? > > Conrad > > Cotuit Solar LLC > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenche= s.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > --=20 > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --=20 Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 1 13:02:20 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:02:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? In-Reply-To: <56FE9D7F.6030304@entech-engineering.com> References: <56FE5FE0.8040702@entech-engineering.com> <050201d18c25$ca3ed8d0$5ebc8a70$@sbcglobal.net> <56FE9D7F.6030304@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <057201d18c38$414f7a80$c3ee6f80$@sbcglobal.net> Chris, Where sign requirements (whether in NEC, IBC, IFC, IRC, etc) have specific requirements for specific signs that may not agree with the basic ANSI rules, the code requirement applies. Where no color requirement accompanies the sign, then the ANSI color designations would be most appropriate. The NEC specifically cites the ANSI standard which provides some additional legitimacy to the ANSI standard. To be clear, the ANSI standard must be cited by an enforceable code to have any teeth at all. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 9:11 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? Thanks Bill, are there other areas where we should look only to the NEC for coloring? Right now, we are using white lettering on a red back ground and the NEC language for all labels (mainly because that's the stock we initially purchased and still have it). I think there are: Danger, Warning, Caution, and Notice. Chris On 4/1/2016 10:50 AM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: Chris, Just to add a fine point of clarification, 690.31(G)(4) requires that the "warning" sign on conduit be Reflective, Capitalized, with white lettering on Red background. This intentionally does not match the ANSI color schemes for signs. The NEC overrules ANSI in this case. If AHJs require that these labels be orange, these signs will not officially be compliant with the NEC. These signs were in the fire code and were removed and put into the NEC to keep all electrical requirements in the NEC. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Friday, April 01, 2016 4:48 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] reflective label maker? We have been using DuroLabel Pro for over a year. Very good support. The negative is having to change colors if AHJs are going to want to follow the ANSI color requirements, but that is probably true for most printers. The labels are durable. I made some for my oyster farm to id equipment as an experiment. They have been submerged in salt water for 5 months and don't appear to be deteriorating. Chris On 3/31/2016 6:25 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote: Anybody have a favorite reflective label maker that they would care to share the info on? Conrad Cotuit Solar LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sun Apr 3 14:06:58 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 14:06:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount Message-ID: <001b01d18dd3$9d9a5c50$d8cf14f0$@solarandwindfx.com> All, These helical ground screws are 6 foot in length and are allowed to be installed by any post hole attachment mounted to a skid steer or mini excavator. With Zilla they have a truss that mounts to two helicals and then you attach the rails to the truss. I'm looking for another manufacturer of ground mounts that attaches to helical ground screws. Again this is only because Zilla refuses to provide the truss broken down as an option, which would significantly reduce shipping. Thanks, Christopher From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Thursday, 31 March, 2016 18:29 To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount We've been using Krinner helical ground screws with good success. There are other similar brands available. I want to make sure that your term of anchors is the same as for screws. What we call helical ground anchors has a very different shape and wouldn't use them for solar. Chris On 3/31/2016 2:38 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: Eric, I've been researching this for almost two years now and finally decided to go with Zilla for a 40 module system. I have a heavy clay soil and nothing has been required for permitting or the AHJ. I will have to purchase their adapter to fit any pto post hole digger for about $500 but expect to make that back over a couple of projects. However the real issue came when I got the finalized numbers from them and a normal freight of around $400-600 was expected. Surprise, the cost was just shy of $1,500! Ouch. Well there goes the margin. Apparently because they provide their truss system as a pre-fab which makes them extremely difficult for the shipper and puts them in a higher freight class. So I asked that they provide an option with the truss broken down. We can do the assembly on site. This is something at this time they are unwilling to do without additional fees. While the customer service response has been timely it is obvious to me that this is something that they clearly do not want to do. Of course this has always been our albatross here on the east coast with most racking system being fabricated west of the Mississippi. So while I look forward to trying the helical pier until they come up with a breakdown option of their ground racking system I suggest you look elsewhere. I hope this helps. Let me know who else out there has a helical pier product. Christopher Chris Schaefer's SolarWindFX Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com cid:image002.jpg at 01D18DB1.C20413F0 cid:image003.jpg at 01D18DB1.C20413F0 cid:image004.jpg at 01D18DB1.C20413F0 Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com Sent: Thursday, 31 March, 2016 13:19 To: RE-wrenches Cc: Ian.isbell at thatsbyers.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Helical Anchors for Ground-Mount We're considering moving away from concrete footings where appropriate on GM projects. I am have not used any helical anchor systems and am curious about the efficiency of the helical anchor system in resi applications. Specifically, am I going to need soil compaction tests and/or geo survey with a P.G. stamp? What is the AHJ going to be looking for? As always, I appreciate any input! Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. 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Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Apr 4 15:34:02 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:34:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Specific AC Coupling question Message-ID: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 19:24:27 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:24:27 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Specific AC Coupling question In-Reply-To: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> References: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have only been able to get the IG, the sma 1800 and 2500 to either run or go off line not slow down like the SMA Island does, we did instead use a 600 volt contactor to turn off on of the strings instead, this was an ok work around. The pv shed seemed better then freq shut downs all the time. Jerry On Apr 4, 2016 9:34 AM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > Wrenches, > Core question first: Will a ~2010 Fronius IG-4000 respond properly to the > frequency shift regulation supplied by a new Schneider XW+5548 or XW+6848? > > Situation: I haven't seen the Colorado site; I'm working as a consultant > to produce an upgrade component list and will later serve as a resource > during local installation of the upgrade equipment. Customer has hired me > to turn a hodgepodge system into a GTBB system. The system has two key > parts: an existing SW5548 with batteries, never properly installed (only > AC1 in was ever connected to a main load center!) with 3.1 kW of > tracker-mounted PV through an Outback FM60; and a roof-mounted 4kW array > feeding the grid panel via the IG-4000. As currently installed, nothing > will operate as wired during a grid outage, and a 240V AC well pump isn't > supported. > > The simple plan is to replace the SW5548 with an XW+5548 or 6848 with > Midnite E-Panel; replace batteries with Surrette FLAs; keep existing arrays > unchanged; use existing FM60 for smaller tracked array; use existing > Fronius IG-4000 but AC couple it to the output of the XW. The customer > understands that sell amperage is limited by the inverter (to 20A @ 240V > for the 5548, or 4,800W, or 27A @ 240V for the 6848, or 6,480W) when the > grid is up, but the full array can charge the battery bank when the grid is > down. > > Schneider tech support assures me that the XW+ is good in this > application, but I need to get an OK from Fronius about frequency-shift > compatibility. Fronius tech support tells me that it may or may not work: > the 0.4 hz shift is within the the normal frequency tolerance for this > model. While the tolerance window may be tightened up in the field, such > tightening may cause nuisance tripping, especially with reactive loads like > a well pump or A/C. The tech suggested that we first test the > frequency-shift approach, and add a DC-coil contactor between the output of > the Fronius and the XW+ if it doesn't. > > Has anyone AC coupled these two units? Did it work? Any unexpected > problems? Did you add a voltage-controlled contactor? What should I advise > my client? > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Apr 4 22:03:52 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 19:03:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Specific AC Coupling question In-Reply-To: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> References: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allen I haven't tried this with Schneider, but we do have one system that frequency shifts a Fronius IG Plus 10.0 from a pair of Sunny Islands. Maybe a different degree of shifting is present. SMA tech support felt confident. Drake > Wrenches, > Core question first: Will a ~2010 Fronius IG-4000 respond properly > to the frequency shift regulation supplied by a new Schneider > XW+5548 or XW+6848? >
> Situation: I haven't seen the Colorado site; I'm working as a > consultant to produce an upgrade component list and will later serve > as a resource during local installation of the upgrade equipment. > Customer has hired me to turn a hodgepodge system into a GTBB > system. The system has two key parts: an existing SW5548 with > batteries, never properly installed (only AC1 in was ever connected > to a main load center!) with 3.1 kW of tracker-mounted PV through an > Outback FM60; and a roof-mounted 4kW array feeding the grid panel > via the IG-4000. As currently installed, nothing will operate as > wired during a grid outage, and a 240V AC well pump isn't > supported.
>
> The simple plan is to replace the SW5548 with an XW+5548 or 6848 > with Midnite E-Panel; replace batteries with Surrette FLAs; keep > existing arrays unchanged; use existing FM60 for smaller tracked > array; use existing Fronius IG-4000 but AC couple it to the output > of the XW. The customer understands that sell amperage is limited by > the inverter (to 20A @ 240V for the 5548, or 4,800W, or 27A @ 240V > for the 6848, or 6,480W) when the grid is up, but the full array can > charge the battery bank when the grid is down.
>
> Schneider tech support assures me that the XW+ is good in this > application, but I need to get an OK from Fronius about > frequency-shift compatibility. Fronius tech support tells me that it > may or may not work: the 0.4 hz shift is within the the normal > frequency tolerance for this model. While the tolerance window may > be tightened up in the field, such tightening may cause nuisance > tripping, especially with reactive loads like a well pump or A/C. > The tech suggested that we first test the frequency-shift approach, > and add a DC-coil contactor between the output of the Fronius and > the XW+ if it doesn't. > Has anyone AC coupled these two units? Did it work? Any unexpected > problems? Did you add a voltage-controlled contactor? What should I > advise my client? > Thank you, > Allan > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 20:45:34 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 17:45:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Specific AC Coupling question In-Reply-To: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> References: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: HI Allan, The only reason to frequency shift is for “softer” charging. VRLA are not as sensitive to the pulse type charging that a relay type charging would do. And regardless if you have frequency shift or not, you will still need ( especially with VRLA) a high voltage relay. I recommend a SS relay, but a regular mechanical contactor will do as well. jay Peltz Power. > On Apr 4, 2016, at 12:34 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > Core question first: Will a ~2010 Fronius IG-4000 respond properly to the frequency shift regulation supplied by a new Schneider XW+5548 or XW+6848? > > Situation: I haven't seen the Colorado site; I'm working as a consultant to produce an upgrade component list and will later serve as a resource during local installation of the upgrade equipment. Customer has hired me to turn a hodgepodge system into a GTBB system. The system has two key parts: an existing SW5548 with batteries, never properly installed (only AC1 in was ever connected to a main load center!) with 3.1 kW of tracker-mounted PV through an Outback FM60; and a roof-mounted 4kW array feeding the grid panel via the IG-4000. As currently installed, nothing will operate as wired during a grid outage, and a 240V AC well pump isn't supported. > > The simple plan is to replace the SW5548 with an XW+5548 or 6848 with Midnite E-Panel; replace batteries with Surrette FLAs; keep existing arrays unchanged; use existing FM60 for smaller tracked array; use existing Fronius IG-4000 but AC couple it to the output of the XW. The customer understands that sell amperage is limited by the inverter (to 20A @ 240V for the 5548, or 4,800W, or 27A @ 240V for the 6848, or 6,480W) when the grid is up, but the full array can charge the battery bank when the grid is down. > > Schneider tech support assures me that the XW+ is good in this application, but I need to get an OK from Fronius about frequency-shift compatibility. Fronius tech support tells me that it may or may not work: the 0.4 hz shift is within the the normal frequency tolerance for this model. While the tolerance window may be tightened up in the field, such tightening may cause nuisance tripping, especially with reactive loads like a well pump or A/C. The tech suggested that we first test the frequency-shift approach, and add a DC-coil contactor between the output of the Fronius and the XW+ if it doesn't. > > Has anyone AC coupled these two units? Did it work? Any unexpected problems? Did you add a voltage-controlled contactor? What should I advise my client? > Thank you, > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 5 00:06:27 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 22:06:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Specific AC Coupling question In-Reply-To: References: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <570339C3.3030702@solarray.com> Also worth looking at Magnum's new AC diversion load system. It does=20 the frequency shifting but also 4 kw dump load that can be set up to any=20 AC electric load. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/4/2016 6:45 PM, jay wrote: > HI Allan, > > The only reason to frequency shift is for =E2=80=9Csofter=E2=80=9D chargi= ng. > VRLA are not as sensitive to the pulse type charging that a relay type=20 > charging would do. > And regardless if you have frequency shift or not, you will still need=20 > ( especially with VRLA) a high voltage relay. > I recommend a SS relay, but a regular mechanical contactor will do as=20 > well. > > jay > > Peltz Power. > > > >> On Apr 4, 2016, at 12:34 PM, Allan Sindelar > > wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> Core question first: Will a ~2010 Fronius IG-4000 respond properly to=20 >> the frequency shift regulation supplied by a new Schneider XW+5548 or=20 >> XW+6848? >> >> Situation: I haven't seen the Colorado site; I'm working as a=20 >> consultant to produce an upgrade component list and will later serve=20 >> as a resource during local installation of the upgrade equipment.=20 >> Customer has hired me to turn a hodgepodge system into a GTBB system.=20 >> The system has two key parts: an existing SW5548 with batteries,=20 >> never properly installed (only AC1 in was ever connected to a main=20 >> load center!) with 3.1 kW of tracker-mounted PV through an Outback=20 >> FM60; and a roof-mounted 4kW array feeding the grid panel via the=20 >> IG-4000. As currently installed, nothing will operate as wired during=20 >> a grid outage, and a 240V AC well pump isn't supported. >> >> The simple plan is to replace the SW5548 with an XW+5548 or 6848 with=20 >> Midnite E-Panel; replace batteries with Surrette FLAs; keep existing=20 >> arrays unchanged; use existing FM60 for smaller tracked array; use=20 >> existing Fronius IG-4000 but AC couple it to the output of the XW.=20 >> The customer understands that sell amperage is limited by the=20 >> inverter (to 20A @ 240V for the 5548, or 4,800W, or 27A @ 240V for=20 >> the 6848, or 6,480W) when the grid is up, but the full array can=20 >> charge the battery bank when the grid is down. >> >> Schneider tech support assures me that the XW+ is good in this=20 >> application, but I need to get an OK from Fronius about=20 >> frequency-shift compatibility. Fronius tech support tells me that it=20 >> may or may not work: the 0.4 hz shift is within the the normal=20 >> frequency tolerance for this model. While the tolerance window may be=20 >> tightened up in the field, such tightening may cause nuisance=20 >> tripping, especially with reactive loads like a well pump or A/C. The=20 >> tech suggested that we first test the frequency-shift approach, and=20 >> add a DC-coil contactor between the output of the Fronius and the XW+=20 >> if it doesn't. >> >> Has anyone AC coupled these two units? Did it work? Any unexpected=20 >> problems? Did you add a voltage-controlled contactor? What should I=20 >> advise my client? >> Thank you, >> Allan >> -- >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired),Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> ** >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 00:09:07 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 22:09:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Specific AC Coupling question In-Reply-To: References: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allen, I would recommend a contactor to disconnect to Fronius at high SOC (or voltage). It's pretty inexpensive to do it and most of the battery based manufacturers recommend it. I may be misunderstanding Jay, but I believe that the frequency shift in this case would create an on/off type of charging, meant only to kick the Fronius off-line. I wouldn't worry much about that because the FM60 can perform the Absorb and float parts of the charge cycle. You may consider putting in a Conext battery monitor and using that to trigger a relay at high SOC (rather than voltage) and isolate the Fronius as failsafe. To me, that is preferable over the relying solely on the frequency shift. I am definitely cautious about AC coupling different manufacturers so please keep us in the loop as to how it works out and if you learn anything. It's an interesting grey area, because accountability really does rest on the installer even if the manufactures suggest it will/should work. What do you do if it doesn't? Perhaps there is a specification that would clarify if AC coupling would work. I read somewhere that grid-tied inverters that test grid impedance will find that the battery based inverters have an impedance out of the expected grid specification and therefore won't AC couple with them, but would like more solid info on that. Good Luck On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 6:45 PM, jay wrote: > HI Allan, > > The only reason to frequency shift is for “softer” charging. > VRLA are not as sensitive to the pulse type charging that a relay type > charging would do. > And regardless if you have frequency shift or not, you will still need ( > especially with VRLA) a high voltage relay. > I recommend a SS relay, but a regular mechanical contactor will do as well. > > jay > > Peltz Power. > > > > On Apr 4, 2016, at 12:34 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > Wrenches, > Core question first: Will a ~2010 Fronius IG-4000 respond properly to the > frequency shift regulation supplied by a new Schneider XW+5548 or XW+6848? > > Situation: I haven't seen the Colorado site; I'm working as a consultant > to produce an upgrade component list and will later serve as a resource > during local installation of the upgrade equipment. Customer has hired me > to turn a hodgepodge system into a GTBB system. The system has two key > parts: an existing SW5548 with batteries, never properly installed (only > AC1 in was ever connected to a main load center!) with 3.1 kW of > tracker-mounted PV through an Outback FM60; and a roof-mounted 4kW array > feeding the grid panel via the IG-4000. As currently installed, nothing > will operate as wired during a grid outage, and a 240V AC well pump isn't > supported. > > The simple plan is to replace the SW5548 with an XW+5548 or 6848 with > Midnite E-Panel; replace batteries with Surrette FLAs; keep existing arrays > unchanged; use existing FM60 for smaller tracked array; use existing > Fronius IG-4000 but AC couple it to the output of the XW. The customer > understands that sell amperage is limited by the inverter (to 20A @ 240V > for the 5548, or 4,800W, or 27A @ 240V for the 6848, or 6,480W) when the > grid is up, but the full array can charge the battery bank when the grid is > down. > > Schneider tech support assures me that the XW+ is good in this > application, but I need to get an OK from Fronius about frequency-shift > compatibility. Fronius tech support tells me that it may or may not work: > the 0.4 hz shift is within the the normal frequency tolerance for this > model. While the tolerance window may be tightened up in the field, such > tightening may cause nuisance tripping, especially with reactive loads like > a well pump or A/C. The tech suggested that we first test the > frequency-shift approach, and add a DC-coil contactor between the output of > the Fronius and the XW+ if it doesn't. > > Has anyone AC coupled these two units? Did it work? Any unexpected > problems? Did you add a voltage-controlled contactor? What should I advise > my client? > Thank you, > Allan > -- > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 5 09:39:24 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 09:39:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Specific AC Coupling question In-Reply-To: References: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <20160405133926.C3A3838A058@homiemail-a94.g.dreamhost.com> The frequency shift will only taper charge using all SMA equipment and an RS-485 Data Module and data cables. With all other brands of grid tie inverters, the Sunny Island will trigger and on / off charge scenario. At 12:09 AM 4/5/2016, you wrote: >Hi Allen, > >I would recommend a contactor to disconnect to >Fronius at high SOC (or voltage). It's pretty >inexpensive to do it and most of the battery based manufacturers recommend it. > >I may be misunderstanding Jay, but I believe >that the frequency shift in this case would >create an on/off type of charging, meant only to >kick the Fronius off-line. I wouldn't worry >much about that because the FM60 can perform the >Absorb and float parts of the charge >cycle. You may consider putting in a Conext >battery monitor and using that to trigger a >relay at high SOC (rather than voltage) and >isolate the Fronius as failsafe. To me, that >is preferable over the relying solely on the frequency shift. > >I am definitely cautious about AC coupling >different manufacturers so please keep us in the >loop as to how it works out and if you learn >anything. It's an interesting grey area, >because accountability really does rest on the >installer even if the manufactures suggest it >will/should work. What do you do if it >doesn't?   Perhaps there is a specification >that would clarify if AC coupling would >work. I read somewhere that grid-tied >inverters that test grid impedance will find >that  the battery based inverters have an >impedance out of the expected grid specification >and therefore won't AC couple with them, but >would like more solid info on that. > >Good Luck > >On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 6:45 PM, jay ><jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote: >HI Allan, > >The only reason to frequency shift is for “softer” charging. >VRLA are not as sensitive to the pulse type >charging that a relay type charging would do.  >And regardless if you have frequency shift or >not, you will still need ( especially with VRLA) a high voltage relay. >I recommend a SS relay, but a regular mechanical contactor will do as well. > >jay > >Peltz Power. > > > >>On Apr 4, 2016, at 12:34 PM, Allan Sindelar >><allan at sindelarsolar.com> wrote: >> >>Wrenches, >>Core question first: Will a ~2010 Fronius >>IG-4000 respond properly to the frequency shift >>regulation supplied by a new Schneider XW+5548 or XW+6848? >> >>Situation: I haven't seen the Colorado site; >>I'm working as a consultant to produce an >>upgrade component list and will later serve as >>a resource during local installation of the >>upgrade equipment. Customer has hired me to >>turn a hodgepodge system into a GTBB system. >>The system has two key parts: an existing >>SW5548 with batteries, never properly installed >>(only AC1 in was ever connected to a main load >>center!) with 3.1 kW of tracker-mounted PV >>through an Outback FM60; and a roof-mounted 4kW >>array feeding the grid panel via the IG-4000. >>As currently installed, nothing will operate as >>wired during a grid outage, and a 240V AC well pump isn't supported. >> >>The simple plan is to replace the SW5548 with >>an XW+5548 or 6848 with Midnite E-Panel; >>replace batteries with Surrette FLAs; keep >>existing arrays unchanged; use existing FM60 >>for smaller tracked array; use existing Fronius >>IG-4000 but AC couple it to the output of the >>XW. The customer understands that sell amperage >>is limited by the inverter (to 20A @ 240V for >>the 5548, or 4,800W, or 27A @ 240V for the >>6848, or 6,480W) when the grid is up, but the >>full array can charge the battery bank when the grid is down. >> >>Schneider tech support assures me that the XW+ >>is good in this application, but I need to get >>an OK from Fronius about frequency-shift >>compatibility. Fronius tech support tells me >>that it may or may not work: the 0.4 hz shift >>is within the the normal frequency tolerance >>for this model. While the tolerance window may >>be tightened up in the field, such tightening >>may cause nuisance tripping, especially with >>reactive loads like a well pump or A/C. The >>tech suggested that we first test the >>frequency-shift approach, and add a DC-coil >>contactor between the output of the Fronius and the XW+ if it doesn't. >> >>Has anyone AC coupled these two units? Did it >>work? Any unexpected problems? Did you add a >>voltage-controlled contactor? What should I advise my client? >>Thank you, >>Allan >>-- >>Allan Sindelar >>allan at sindelarsolar.com >>NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>505 780-2738 cell >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > >-- > > > >Mac Lewis > >"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Apr 5 17:13:15 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 21:13:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Specific AC Coupling question In-Reply-To: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> References: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Have installed a 5548 and 6048 XW with IG Plus 10.0 with fair results. On/Off when AC coupled during the test phase. I have not heard any complaints from the homeowner. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Apr 4, 2016, at 1:34 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: Wrenches, Core question first: Will a ~2010 Fronius IG-4000 respond properly to the frequency shift regulation supplied by a new Schneider XW+5548 or XW+6848? Situation: I haven't seen the Colorado site; I'm working as a consultant to produce an upgrade component list and will later serve as a resource during local installation of the upgrade equipment. Customer has hired me to turn a hodgepodge system into a GTBB system. The system has two key parts: an existing SW5548 with batteries, never properly installed (only AC1 in was ever connected to a main load center!) with 3.1 kW of tracker-mounted PV through an Outback FM60; and a roof-mounted 4kW array feeding the grid panel via the IG-4000. As currently installed, nothing will operate as wired during a grid outage, and a 240V AC well pump isn't supported. The simple plan is to replace the SW5548 with an XW+5548 or 6848 with Midnite E-Panel; replace batteries with Surrette FLAs; keep existing arrays unchanged; use existing FM60 for smaller tracked array; use existing Fronius IG-4000 but AC couple it to the output of the XW. The customer understands that sell amperage is limited by the inverter (to 20A @ 240V for the 5548, or 4,800W, or 27A @ 240V for the 6848, or 6,480W) when the grid is up, but the full array can charge the battery bank when the grid is down. Schneider tech support assures me that the XW+ is good in this application, but I need to get an OK from Fronius about frequency-shift compatibility. Fronius tech support tells me that it may or may not work: the 0.4 hz shift is within the the normal frequency tolerance for this model. While the tolerance window may be tightened up in the field, such tightening may cause nuisance tripping, especially with reactive loads like a well pump or A/C. The tech suggested that we first test the frequency-shift approach, and add a DC-coil contactor between the output of the Fronius and the XW+ if it doesn't. Has anyone AC coupled these two units? Did it work? Any unexpected problems? Did you add a voltage-controlled contactor? What should I advise my client? Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 6 20:32:29 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 20:32:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar 600 V MPPT Message-ID: <20160407003308.85164101C6@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, Has anyone used the Morningstar 600V MPPT charge controller? I would like to give one a try, but it would be good to hear if anyone has a track record with them. One supplier seems to have phased them out, and I'm wondering why. Thanks Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 09:41:41 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 07:41:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Specific AC Coupling question In-Reply-To: References: <5702C1AA.2030101@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allen, Another thing that you may want to talk with Schnieder about is if the "max sell" about applies if there is AC coupling is involved. I believe that the max sell amps is talking about how much the XW+ can pull off the DC buss, not necessarily how much will flow to the main service through its terminals via AC coupling. It may not be a bottleneck in your case. Good Luck On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Have installed a 5548 and 6048 XW with IG Plus 10.0 with fair results. > On/Off when AC coupled during the test phase. I have not heard any > complaints from the homeowner. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Apr 4, 2016, at 1:34 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > Wrenches, > Core question first: Will a ~2010 Fronius IG-4000 respond properly to the > frequency shift regulation supplied by a new Schneider XW+5548 or XW+6848? > > Situation: I haven't seen the Colorado site; I'm working as a consultant > to produce an upgrade component list and will later serve as a resource > during local installation of the upgrade equipment. Customer has hired me > to turn a hodgepodge system into a GTBB system. The system has two key > parts: an existing SW5548 with batteries, never properly installed (only > AC1 in was ever connected to a main load center!) with 3.1 kW of > tracker-mounted PV through an Outback FM60; and a roof-mounted 4kW array > feeding the grid panel via the IG-4000. As currently installed, nothing > will operate as wired during a grid outage, and a 240V AC well pump isn't > supported. > > The simple plan is to replace the SW5548 with an XW+5548 or 6848 with > Midnite E-Panel; replace batteries with Surrette FLAs; keep existing arrays > unchanged; use existing FM60 for smaller tracked array; use existing > Fronius IG-4000 but AC couple it to the output of the XW. The customer > understands that sell amperage is limited by the inverter (to 20A @ 240V > for the 5548, or 4,800W, or 27A @ 240V for the 6848, or 6,480W) when the > grid is up, but the full array can charge the battery bank when the grid is > down. > > Schneider tech support assures me that the XW+ is good in this > application, but I need to get an OK from Fronius about frequency-shift > compatibility. Fronius tech support tells me that it may or may not work: > the 0.4 hz shift is within the the normal frequency tolerance for this > model. While the tolerance window may be tightened up in the field, such > tightening may cause nuisance tripping, especially with reactive loads like > a well pump or A/C. The tech suggested that we first test the > frequency-shift approach, and add a DC-coil contactor between the output of > the Fronius and the XW+ if it doesn't. > > Has anyone AC coupled these two units? Did it work? Any unexpected > problems? Did you add a voltage-controlled contactor? What should I advise > my client? > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 18:39:22 2016 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 15:39:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar 600 V MPPT In-Reply-To: <20160407003308.85164101C6@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160407003308.85164101C6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have one in a test system charging an Aquion battery. It has 11 REC modules in one string feeding it. I programmed it using MSView from my place remotely and once I got all the comm programming right it worked great. I now monitor it over the company VPN using a browser and it seems to be totally solid so far. Brad Bassett AEE Solar On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Has anyone used the Morningstar 600V MPPT charge controller? I would like > to give one a try, but it would be good to hear if anyone has a track > record with them. One supplier seems to have phased them out, and I'm > wondering why. > > Thanks > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 23:23:14 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 21:23:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar 600 V MPPT In-Reply-To: References: <20160407003308.85164101C6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have one in place in a remote off-grid location in Colorado, no problems since commissioning last October. We are not using any of the bells and whistles, it was simply handy for a PV array over 350 feet from the power center. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > I have one in a test system charging an Aquion battery. It has 11 REC > modules in one string feeding it. I programmed it using MSView from my > place remotely and once I got all the comm programming right it worked > great. I now monitor it over the company VPN using a browser and it seems > to be totally solid so far. > > Brad Bassett > AEE Solar > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Has anyone used the Morningstar 600V MPPT charge controller? I would like >> to give one a try, but it would be good to hear if anyone has a track >> record with them. One supplier seems to have phased them out, and I'm >> wondering why. >> >> Thanks >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Apr 8 01:05:38 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 23:05:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storage Batteries for dwellings -Canadian Code Message-ID: Wrenches, Section 64 of the 2015 Canadian Electrical Code covers Renewable Energy Systems. Rule 64-800(3) states... 1. Storage batteries for dwelling units shall have the cells connected so as to operate at less than 50 V nominal. Note the word "for". It appears that this rule may restrict the use of higher voltage lithium ion batteries (PowerWall and similar Panasonic home storage that i've heard of) FOR dwellings regardless of where it is installed (detached or attached garage or even a separate shed) Based on the short text that i've included, does anyone interpret it differently or know of another rule in the CEC that may be a work-around? For the NEC'ers... i only have a copy of the 2011 NEC and haven't read it cover to cover yet ;) but is there a similar rule in there regarding storage battery voltage FOR dwellings? Thanks *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 21:24:44 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 21:24:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar 600 V MPPT In-Reply-To: References: <20160407003308.85164101C6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have one. It's a bit noisy but very good unit. I'd get the unit with the dc disconnect. On Apr 7, 2016 18:39, "Bradley Bassett" wrote: > I have one in a test system charging an Aquion battery. It has 11 REC > modules in one string feeding it. I programmed it using MSView from my > place remotely and once I got all the comm programming right it worked > great. I now monitor it over the company VPN using a browser and it seems > to be totally solid so far. > > Brad Bassett > AEE Solar > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Has anyone used the Morningstar 600V MPPT charge controller? I would like >> to give one a try, but it would be good to hear if anyone has a track >> record with them. One supplier seems to have phased them out, and I'm >> wondering why. >> >> Thanks >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 12:04:59 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 12:04:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storage Batteries for dwellings -Canadian Code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Powerwall is an integrated product, not a battery you install. There is no user access to the internal voltage. Our Nissan Leaf stores at 500v but it's not restricted for the same reason. There are plenty of commercial UPS products that use very high villages but the user had no access to the internals. On Apr 8, 2016 1:06 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: > Wrenches, > Section 64 of the 2015 Canadian Electrical Code covers Renewable Energy > Systems. > Rule 64-800(3) states... > > 1. > > Storage batteries for dwelling units shall have the cells connected so > as to operate at less than 50 V nominal. > > Note the word "for". It appears that this rule may restrict the use of > higher voltage lithium ion batteries (PowerWall and similar Panasonic home > storage that i've heard of) FOR dwellings regardless of where it is > installed (detached or attached garage or even a separate shed) > > Based on the short text that i've included, does anyone interpret it > differently or know of another rule in the CEC that may be a work-around? > > For the NEC'ers... i only have a copy of the 2011 NEC and haven't read it > cover to cover yet ;) but is there a similar rule in there regarding > storage battery voltage FOR dwellings? > > Thanks > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > [image: google] > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Fri Apr 8 13:58:33 2016 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 10:58:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Solmetric News - SunEye Discontinued In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20160408105833.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.c89f61fecc.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Picking up this issue after some time has passed... Has anyone found, or received any news on, a replacement for the Solmetric SunEye other than Pathfinder? Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 --------- Original Message --------- Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Solmetric News - SunEye Discontinued From: "August Goers" Date: 3/9/15 4:46 pm To: "RE-wrenches" Wrenches, You may have received this rather sad email today too. Does anyone have an alternate shade tool that they like? I still like the old fashioned Pathfinder but it is too time consuming for the quantity of shade shots that we have to process. Best, August Luminalt From: Solmetric Corporation [mailto:info at solmetric.ccsend.com] On Behalf Of Solmetric Corporation Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 10:08 AM Subject: Solmetric News - SunEye Discontinued Having trouble viewing this email? Click here Solmetric SunEye Product Line and Accessories Discontinued. Having reached the end of the product lifecycle, the Solmetric SunEye 210 and its line of products - including PV Designer, Solmetric Shade Training, and the SunEye Extension Platform - will no longer be available. The popular Solmetric PV Analyzer I-V Curve Tracer (PVA-1000S) will continue to be available. New software features for the PVA are under development and will be made available as free upgrades in the coming months. "With almost nine years of SunEye shipments, it's been a very successful product line and a fun ride. We are grateful for the many years of enthusiastic SunEye customers," says former Solmetric President, Willard MacDonald. Mr. MacDonald will be continuing as the Vice President of Solar Labs. Full Press Release to follow: Vivint Solar Creates New Technology Team - Solar Labs Former Solmetric SunEye Products to be Discontinued; New Research and Development Team to Focus on Advanced Photovoltaic Installation Instruments LEHI, Utah, Feb. 26, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Vivint Solar (NYSE: VSLR), a leading provider of residential solar systems in the United States announced today that its Solmetric team will be fully integrated into the Vivint Solar operating structure and be known as Vivint Solar Labs. The new research and development team will focus on proprietary photovoltaic installation instruments and software. Having reached the end of the product lifecycle, the Solmetric SunEye 210 and its line of products - including PV Designer, Solmetric Shade Training and the SunEye Extension Platform - will no longer be available. PV Analyzer will continue to be available. "We are pleased with the integration of the Solmetric team of engineers and staff into Vivint Solar Labs," said Greg Butterfield, CEO of Vivint Solar. "We look forward to further development of advanced photovoltaic installation technology that will significantly reduce our cost per watt and expedite solar installations for our customers." Vivint Solar acquired Solmetric Corporation in January 2014. Vivint Solar is the second largest installer of solar energy systems to the U.S. residential market with approximately 16 percent market share in the third quarter of 2014, according to GTM Research. In 2014, the company established 23 new sales and installation offices to its 16 previously existing offices. The company plans to expand further in 2015. About Vivint Solar Vivint Solar is a leading provider of distributed solar energy - electricity generated by a solar energy system installed at a customer's location - to residential customers in the United States. Vivint Solar's customers pay little to no money upfront, receive significant savings relative to utility generated electricity and continue to benefit from guaranteed energy prices over the 20-year term of their contracts. Vivint Solar finances, designs, installs, monitors and services the solar energy systems to make things easy for its customers. For more information, visit www.vivintsolar.com or follow @VivintSolar. Note on Forward-looking Statements This press release contains forward-looking statements as defined within the meaning of the federal securities laws, including statements regarding Vivint Solar's growth plans and prospects, including its plans and prospects for the former Solmetric team and Vivint Solar Labs, and the expected benefits associated with Vivint Solar Labs and the growth of the company's business. Forward-looking statements are inherently subject to risks and uncertainties, some of which cannot be predicted or quantified. Forward-looking statements should not be read as a guarantee of future performance or results, and they will not necessarily be accurate indications of the times at, or by, which such performance or results will be achieved, if at all. These statements are based on current expectations and assumptions regarding future events and business performance as of the date of this press release, and they are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual performance or results to differ materially from those expressed in or suggested by the forward-looking statements, including but not limited to the availability of additional financing on acceptable terms; changes in retail price of traditional utility generated electricity; changes in electric utility policies and regulations; the availability of rebates, tax credits and other incentives that affect the pricing of our offering, including regulations related to net metering; changes in regulations, tariffs and other trade barriers and tax policy affecting the company and its industry; our ability to manage our recent and future growth effectively, including attracting, training and retaining sales personnel and solar energy system installers; the availability and price of solar panels and other system components; and the other risks identified in the registration statements and reports that Vivint Solar files with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, which are available on the Investor Relations section of our website at www.vivintsolar.com. Vivint Solar does not undertake any obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statement, whether as a result of new information, future developments or otherwise. Contact Vivint Solar Kady Cooper Director of Public Relations 415-706-9778 kady.cooper at vivintsolar.com SunEye Warranty and Service Information Solmetric will continue to provide technical support and repair services for in- and out-of-warranty SunEye 210 units. Solmetric discontinued support of the SunEye 100/110 in earlier announcements. For more information contact our support team: http://www.solmetric.com/support-form.html Solmetric at Solar Asset Management - April 2015 Come see a demo of the PVA-1000S I-V Curve Tracer at Solar Asset Management North America, San Francisco, April 1-2, 2015 Solmetric is now on Facebook and LinkedIn. Our pages are updated with upcoming webinars, events, news and articles. Feel free to contact us if you have any questions at 707.823.4600 or by email to support at solmetric.com. Forward email This email was sent to eric at luminalt.com by marketing at solmetric.com | Update Profile/Email Address | Rapid removal with SafeUnsubscribe™ | Privacy Policy. Solmetric Corporation | 117 Morris Street | Suite 100 | Sebastopol | CA | 95472 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 18:42:02 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:42:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Solmetric News - SunEye Discontinued In-Reply-To: <20160408105833.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.c89f61fecc.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20160408105833.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.c89f61fecc.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Hi Eric; There was a recent thread here about that, I can't seem to find it. But the consensus was that the "replacement" is the digital Google SunRoof Project, using overhead imaging for X-Y axis data combined with Streetview for Z axis data to estimate obstruction heights, and it only works in a limited number of urban areas, leaving us remote off-grid installers with just the old Pathfinder and SunEyes with shot batteries (I have one of the old ones that has the iPaq PDA attached to the unit and bluetooth GPS, if anyone remembers those). Week after next I will be tasking my college PV installer class with comparing data from the Pathfinder, old Suneye and the Solar Shading app from Comoving Magnetics on an Android phone with a panning tripod adaptor. Their class assignment will be to crunch their data and compare accuracy. We'll make it all available online. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:58 AM, wrote: > Picking up this issue after some time has passed... > > Has anyone found, or received any news on, a replacement for the Solmetric > SunEye other than Pathfinder? > > Eric Stikes > Founding Director & CEO > Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. > www.goodsun.life > (530)798-3738 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 18:46:07 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:46:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storage Batteries for dwellings -Canadian Code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wonder how this code will apply to the new SonnenBatterie system, which uses a high-voltage lithium battery bank adapted to an Outback Radian integrated into the cabinet. I'm guessing it will be the same...the user-accessible side will be 48VDC. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > The Powerwall is an integrated product, not a battery you install. There > is no user access to the internal voltage. Our Nissan Leaf stores at 500v > but it's not restricted for the same reason. There are plenty of commercial > UPS products that use very high villages but the user had no access to the > internals. > On Apr 8, 2016 1:06 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> Section 64 of the 2015 Canadian Electrical Code covers Renewable Energy >> Systems. >> Rule 64-800(3) states... >> >> 1. >> >> Storage batteries for dwelling units shall have the cells connected >> so as to operate at less than 50 V nominal. >> >> Note the word "for". It appears that this rule may restrict the use of >> higher voltage lithium ion batteries (PowerWall and similar Panasonic home >> storage that i've heard of) FOR dwellings regardless of where it is >> installed (detached or attached garage or even a separate shed) >> >> Based on the short text that i've included, does anyone interpret it >> differently or know of another rule in the CEC that may be a work-around? >> >> For the NEC'ers... i only have a copy of the 2011 NEC and haven't read it >> cover to cover yet ;) but is there a similar rule in there regarding >> storage battery voltage FOR dwellings? >> >> Thanks >> >> *Benn Kilburn * >> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 >> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >> [image: email] [image: facebook] >> [image: twitter] >> [image: linkedin] >> >> [image: google] >> >> [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 19:21:48 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:21:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storage Batteries for dwellings -Canadian Code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi dan The sonnen is the Sony battery. 48v packs. No problem. Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 8, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > I wonder how this code will apply to the new SonnenBatterie system, which uses a high-voltage lithium battery bank adapted to an Outback Radian integrated into the cabinet. I'm guessing it will be the same...the user-accessible side will be 48VDC. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > >> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >> The Powerwall is an integrated product, not a battery you install. There is no user access to the internal voltage. Our Nissan Leaf stores at 500v but it's not restricted for the same reason. There are plenty of commercial UPS products that use very high villages but the user had no access to the internals. >> >>> On Apr 8, 2016 1:06 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: >>> Wrenches, >>> Section 64 of the 2015 Canadian Electrical Code covers Renewable Energy Systems. >>> Rule 64-800(3) states... >>> Storage batteries for dwelling units shall have the cells connected so as to operate at less than 50 V nominal. >>> >>> Note the word "for". It appears that this rule may restrict the use of higher voltage lithium ion batteries (PowerWall and similar Panasonic home storage that i've heard of) FOR dwellings regardless of where it is installed (detached or attached garage or even a separate shed) >>> >>> Based on the short text that i've included, does anyone interpret it differently or know of another rule in the CEC that may be a work-around? >>> >>> For the NEC'ers... i only have a copy of the 2011 NEC and haven't read it cover to cover yet ;) but is there a similar rule in there regarding storage battery voltage FOR dwellings? >>> >>> Thanks >>> Benn Kilburn >>> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >>> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 >>> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 21:07:33 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 19:07:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storage Batteries for dwellings -Canadian Code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Jay! Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi dan > > The sonnen is the Sony battery. 48v packs. No problem. > > Jay > Peltz power > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 8, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > I wonder how this code will apply to the new SonnenBatterie system, which > uses a high-voltage lithium battery bank adapted to an Outback Radian > integrated into the cabinet. I'm guessing it will be the same...the > user-accessible side will be 48VDC. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: > >> The Powerwall is an integrated product, not a battery you install. There >> is no user access to the internal voltage. Our Nissan Leaf stores at 500v >> but it's not restricted for the same reason. There are plenty of commercial >> UPS products that use very high villages but the user had no access to the >> internals. >> On Apr 8, 2016 1:06 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> Section 64 of the 2015 Canadian Electrical Code covers Renewable Energy >>> Systems. >>> Rule 64-800(3) states... >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> Storage batteries for dwelling units shall have the cells connected >>> so as to operate at less than 50 V nominal. >>> >>> Note the word "for". It appears that this rule may restrict the use of >>> higher voltage lithium ion batteries (PowerWall and similar Panasonic home >>> storage that i've heard of) FOR dwellings regardless of where it is >>> installed (detached or attached garage or even a separate shed) >>> >>> Based on the short text that i've included, does anyone interpret it >>> differently or know of another rule in the CEC that may be a work-around? >>> >>> For the NEC'ers... i only have a copy of the 2011 NEC and haven't read >>> it cover to cover yet ;) but is there a similar rule in there regarding >>> storage battery voltage FOR dwellings? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> *Benn Kilburn * >>> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >>> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 >>> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >>> [image: email] [image: facebook] >>> [image: twitter] >>> [image: linkedin] >>> >>> [image: google] >>> >>> [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 8 20:38:41 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 20:38:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Solmetric News - SunEye Discontinued In-Reply-To: References: <20160408105833.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.c89f61fecc.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <004901d191f8$2ae59160$80b0b420$@burt@glbcc.com> I recently had the pleasure of identifying the internal battery for an aging SunEye-100N that only held a charge for a couple of hours before needing complete resetting. It was not difficult to extricate and open the iPaq and identify the battery model, I then found a couple of sources on the internet that carried replacements, so they can be revived! -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 6:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Solmetric News - SunEye Discontinued Hi Eric; There was a recent thread here about that, I can't seem to find it. But the consensus was that the "replacement" is the digital Google SunRoof Project, using overhead imaging for X-Y axis data combined with Streetview for Z axis data to estimate obstruction heights, and it only works in a limited number of urban areas, leaving us remote off-grid installers with just the old Pathfinder and SunEyes with shot batteries (I have one of the old ones that has the iPaq PDA attached to the unit and bluetooth GPS, if anyone remembers those). Week after next I will be tasking my college PV installer class with comparing data from the Pathfinder, old Suneye and the Solar Shading app from Comoving Magnetics on an Android phone with a panning tripod adaptor. Their class assignment will be to crunch their data and compare accuracy. We'll make it all available online. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:58 AM, wrote: Picking up this issue after some time has passed... Has anyone found, or received any news on, a replacement for the Solmetric SunEye other than Pathfinder? Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: WP_20150810_001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2447218 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 16:22:24 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 13:22:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos CU200 location In-Reply-To: <56FDA391.9050707@entech-engineering.com> References: <20160331104713.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.6a947b1f11.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> <56FDA391.9050707@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <0EDFBBFD-D5EA-4DB7-AE21-3938A52060CF@gmail.com> HI All, Does anyone know where the CU-200 has to be located? I’m trying to determine if it matters if the CU200 be closer to the pump or not? I have a location where there is some theft possibility so if I can mount it 200’ away where the PV is that would help. But the manual isn’t any help. Thanks jay Peltz power From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 19:30:18 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 13:30:18 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos CU200 location In-Reply-To: <0EDFBBFD-D5EA-4DB7-AE21-3938A52060CF@gmail.com> References: <20160331104713.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.6a947b1f11.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> <56FDA391.9050707@entech-engineering.com> <0EDFBBFD-D5EA-4DB7-AE21-3938A52060CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: We have them located close to the array but thats inpart due to the location, l have several used in tanks not just in the well. On Apr 9, 2016 10:34 AM, "jay" wrote: > HI All, > > Does anyone know where the CU-200 has to be located? > > I’m trying to determine if it matters if the CU200 be closer to the pump > or not? > > I have a location where there is some theft possibility so if I can mount > it 200’ away where the PV is that would help. > But the manual isn’t any help. > > Thanks > > jay > > Peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 22:58:59 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:58:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos CU200 location In-Reply-To: References: <20160331104713.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.6a947b1f11.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> <56FDA391.9050707@entech-engineering.com> <0EDFBBFD-D5EA-4DB7-AE21-3938A52060CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, I think it just needs to be somewhere in the system. How far is the total wire run? I typically put them near the array because the pole is a convenient mount. The farthest distance I've done was about 800' between the Cu200 and the pump and it worked fine. On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > We have them located close to the array but thats inpart due to the > location, l have several used in tanks not just in the well. > On Apr 9, 2016 10:34 AM, "jay" wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> Does anyone know where the CU-200 has to be located? >> >> I’m trying to determine if it matters if the CU200 be closer to the pump >> or not? >> >> I have a location where there is some theft possibility so if I can mount >> it 200’ away where the PV is that would help. >> But the manual isn’t any help. >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> Peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Sun Apr 10 03:52:03 2016 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 00:52:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos CU200 location In-Reply-To: References: <20160331104713.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.6a947b1f11.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> <56FDA391.9050707@entech-engineering.com> <0EDFBBFD-D5EA-4DB7-AE21-3938A52060CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Agreed, just needs to be somewhere in the system. I have mine mounted next to the pressure tank in the house. I have also mounted them right at the well top in a protected space. Ron earthRight Solar > On Apr 9, 2016, at 7:58 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > I think it just needs to be somewhere in the system. How far is the total wire run? I typically put them near the array because the pole is a convenient mount. The farthest distance I've done was about 800' between the Cu200 and the pump and it worked fine. > > On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > We have them located close to the array but thats inpart due to the location, l have several used in tanks not just in the well. > > On Apr 9, 2016 10:34 AM, "jay" > wrote: > HI All, > > Does anyone know where the CU-200 has to be located? > > I’m trying to determine if it matters if the CU200 be closer to the pump or not? > > I have a location where there is some theft possibility so if I can mount it 200’ away where the PV is that would help. > But the manual isn’t any help. > > Thanks > > jay > > Peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Sun Apr 10 11:03:30 2016 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 11:03:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Scam ? Message-ID: <006001d1933a$2560c460$70224d20$@com> Wrenches, People named Dave Firth and Hugh Tian have been trying to get me to respond to emails that say I sent a company, Power Blessed a PO. Which I did not, I've never heard of them before this. I have ignored their emails. I'm wondering what kind of a scam this could lead into. Are they just fishing by just trying to get a conversation going. Anybody know these folks? Or, of something like this? Hear is there info from an e-mail. - Dave Palumbo < Http://www.powerblessed.net Email: solar @powerblessed.com Tel: +86-21-58170702 Fax: +86-21-51069190 ADD: No. 7237, Hunan Rd. Pudong Shanghai 201314 P. R. China >> David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3115 bytes Desc: not available URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sun Apr 10 11:13:42 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 11:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Scam ? In-Reply-To: <006001d1933a$2560c460$70224d20$@com> References: <006001d1933a$2560c460$70224d20$@com> Message-ID: <6dd763618cee2bd0264e57539b4c459e.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Ignore, Dave. I get this crap at least weekly, if not more.... Daryl > Wrenches, > > > > People named Dave Firth and Hugh Tian have been trying to get me to > respond > to emails that say I sent a company, Power Blessed a PO. Which I did not, > I've never heard of them before this. > > > > I have ignored their emails. I'm wondering what kind of a scam this could > lead into. Are they just fishing by just trying to get a conversation > going. > > > > Anybody know these folks? Or, of something like this? > > > > Hear is there info from an e-mail. - Dave Palumbo > > > > < > cid:_Foxmail.1 at d3a50cbc-da77-a295-ac35-82688f5e8134 > > Power Blessed Co., Ltd. > > Http://www.powerblessed.net > > Email: solar @powerblessed.com > > Tel: +86-21-58170702 > > Fax: +86-21-51069190 > > ADD: No. 7237, Hunan Rd. Pudong > > Shanghai 201314 P. R. China >> > > > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 cell > > 802-888-4917 home > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Sun Apr 10 11:35:40 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:35:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Scam ? In-Reply-To: <6dd763618cee2bd0264e57539b4c459e.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <006001d1933a$2560c460$70224d20$@com> <6dd763618cee2bd0264e57539b4c459e.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <407BC5C7-5106-4C8F-AA4E-A1285BB7E958@IcarusSolarServices.com> Dave: These emails frequently come with ".doc" or ".zip" attachments and hope you open them. Doing so may expose you to a nasty virus, Trojan horse, or worse. Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Engineering LLC Sent from my iPhone 5s > On Apr 10, 2016, at 10:13 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > Ignore, Dave. I get this crap at least weekly, if not more.... > > Daryl > > > >> Wrenches, >> >> >> >> People named Dave Firth and Hugh Tian have been trying to get me to >> respond >> to emails that say I sent a company, Power Blessed a PO. Which I did not, >> I've never heard of them before this. >> >> >> >> I have ignored their emails. I'm wondering what kind of a scam this could >> lead into. Are they just fishing by just trying to get a conversation >> going. >> >> >> >> Anybody know these folks? Or, of something like this? >> >> >> >> Hear is there info from an e-mail. - Dave Palumbo >> >> >> >> <> >> cid:_Foxmail.1 at d3a50cbc-da77-a295-ac35-82688f5e8134 >> >> Power Blessed Co., Ltd. >> >> Http://www.powerblessed.net >> >> Email: solar @powerblessed.com >> >> Tel: +86-21-58170702 >> >> Fax: +86-21-51069190 >> >> ADD: No. 7237, Hunan Rd. Pudong >> >> Shanghai 201314 P. R. China >> >> >> >> >> >> >> David Palumbo >> >> Independent Power LLC >> >> 462 Solar Way Drive >> >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> >> 802-371-8678 cell >> >> 802-888-4917 home >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solarwrench at asis.com Sun Apr 10 11:50:46 2016 From: solarwrench at asis.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 08:50:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos CU200 location In-Reply-To: <0EDFBBFD-D5EA-4DB7-AE21-3938A52060CF@gmail.com> References: <20160331104713.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.6a947b1f11.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> <56FDA391.9050707@entech-engineering.com> <0EDFBBFD-D5EA-4DB7-AE21-3938A52060CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, I’ve put it both close to the pump and the array and never noticed any issues. Blessings, Kelly ~~~~~ Kelly Larson 707-223-3209 Box 504 Ukiah, CA 95482 Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional IREC Certified Master Trainer for Photovoltaic Installer CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 SolarKelly.com > On Apr 9, 2016, at 1:22 PM, jay > wrote: > > HI All, > > Does anyone know where the CU-200 has to be located? > > I’m trying to determine if it matters if the CU200 be closer to the pump or not? > > I have a location where there is some theft possibility so if I can mount it 200’ away where the PV is that would help. > But the manual isn’t any help. > > Thanks > > jay > > Peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sun Apr 10 12:04:12 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 09:04:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Scam_=3F?= Message-ID: <20160410090412.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.f35023945d.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Sun Apr 10 12:09:59 2016 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:09:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Scam ? In-Reply-To: <20160410090412.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.f35023945d.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20160410090412.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.f35023945d.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <009d01d19343$6eac42d0$4c04c870$@com> Thank you Daryl, Gary and Dan for your help. That's what I thought. If you don't know them - Don't open anything. Dave From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 12:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Scam ? Sounds Fishy, Since I got on the Govt. contractors list, I get these and usually 30-40 (Sometimes 80-90) Spam hits a day. Just hoeing thru junk mail can take 30 min. They can even send hits directly thru the web page so it looks even more legit. If I don't know them or are not expecting them, they don't get opened. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Scam ? From: Gary Willett Date: Sun, April 10, 2016 11:35 am To: RE-wrenches Dave: These emails frequently come with ".doc" or ".zip" attachments and hope you open them. Doing so may expose you to a nasty virus, Trojan horse, or worse. Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Engineering LLC Sent from my iPhone 5s > On Apr 10, 2016, at 10:13 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > Ignore, Dave. I get this crap at least weekly, if not more.... > > Daryl > > > >> Wrenches, >> >> >> >> People named Dave Firth and Hugh Tian have been trying to get me to >> respond >> to emails that say I sent a company, Power Blessed a PO. Which I did not, >> I've never heard of them before this. >> >> >> >> I have ignored their emails. I'm wondering what kind of a scam this could >> lead into. Are they just fishing by just trying to get a conversation >> going. >> >> >> >> Anybody know these folks? Or, of something like this? >> >> >> >> Hear is there info from an e-mail. - Dave Palumbo >> >> >> >> <> >> cid:_Foxmail.1 at d3a50cbc-da77-a295-ac35-82688f5e8134 >> >> Power Blessed Co., Ltd. >> >> Http://www.powerblessed.net >> >> Email: solar @powerblessed.com >> >> Tel: +86-21-58170702 >> >> Fax: +86-21-51069190 >> >> ADD: No. 7237, Hunan Rd. Pudong >> >> Shanghai 201314 P. R. China >> >> >> >> >> >> >> David Palumbo >> >> Independent Power LLC >> >> 462 Solar Way Drive >> >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> >> 802-371-8678 cell >> >> 802-888-4917 home >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Apr 11 12:08:51 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:08:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SIP W/ metal roof Message-ID: <20160411160856.5F2F23E4057@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, What is the best solution for fastening arrays to SIP construction? This is a metal roof. I have information on EcoFasten for shingle roofs. What is the best solution for metal roofs? Thanks you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 12:44:47 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:44:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SIP W/ metal roof In-Reply-To: <20160411160856.5F2F23E4057@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160411160856.5F2F23E4057@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake, We've use DP&W Easy Feet for this application. Carl Adams SunRock Solar NACEP Certified PV Instsller On Apr 11, 2016 12:09 PM, "Drake" wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best solution for fastening arrays to SIP construction? This > is a metal roof. I have information on EcoFasten for shingle roofs. What > is the best solution for metal roofs? > > Thanks you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philforest at me.com Mon Apr 11 13:15:50 2016 From: philforest at me.com (Phil Forest) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 13:15:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SIP W/ metal roof In-Reply-To: <20160411160856.5F2F23E4057@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160411160856.5F2F23E4057@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <34DFB9D5-F3FD-42E8-BDD7-82A0EAF4C480@me.com> What type of metal roof? We've used s5! Proteabracket for trapezoidal metal roof profiles. Work great. Solid. Doesn't matter if it's a SIP roof or framed roof since they fasten to the metal. And we've used their mounts for standing seam too, which also attach to the standing seam, not the roof structure. Phil Forest > On Apr 11, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Drake wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best solution for fastening arrays to SIP construction? This is a metal roof. I have information on EcoFasten for shingle roofs. What is the best solution for metal roofs? > > Thanks you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 18:24:46 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:24:46 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SIP W/ metal roof In-Reply-To: <34DFB9D5-F3FD-42E8-BDD7-82A0EAF4C480@me.com> References: <20160411160856.5F2F23E4057@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> <34DFB9D5-F3FD-42E8-BDD7-82A0EAF4C480@me.com> Message-ID: Depending on the type of roof, sunmodo makes a product and is 1/2 the cost of the S-5 product and mounts directly to the rail. If you need to fasten to the decking (SIPS) product there is a sunmodo product for that also. Jerry On Apr 11, 2016 7:16 AM, "Phil Forest" wrote: > What type of metal roof? We've used s5! Proteabracket for trapezoidal > metal roof profiles. Work great. Solid. Doesn't matter if it's a SIP roof > or framed roof since they fasten to the metal. And we've used their mounts > for standing seam too, which also attach to the standing seam, not the roof > structure. > Phil Forest > > On Apr 11, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Drake > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best solution for fastening arrays to SIP construction? This > is a metal roof. I have information on EcoFasten for shingle roofs. What > is the best solution for metal roofs? > > Thanks you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 13 10:24:27 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 10:24:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SIP W/ metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <20160411160856.5F2F23E4057@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20160413142435.A3AAB10720@che.dreamhost.com> Carl and all who responded, Thank you for the information. On checking out the options, the Easy Feet seem like the best approach for this project. All of the methods discussed are very good to know about. Drake, At 12:44 PM 4/11/2016, you wrote: >Drake, > >We've use DP&W Easy Feet for this application. > >Carl Adams >SunRock Solar >NACEP Certified PV Instsller >On Apr 11, 2016 12:09 PM, "Drake" ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Hello Wrenches, > >What is the best solution for fastening arrays >to SIP construction? This is a metal roof. I >have information on EcoFasten for shingle >roofs. What is the best solution for metal roofs? > >Thanks you, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 11:34:07 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:34:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge comm card failures Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Anyone experiencing issues with comm card failures on SolarEdge inverters? We have some systems installed in 2012 exhibiting similar behaviors. The systems are producing data, it is registering on the inverter, and our independent utilty meter, but is not reported to the SolarEdge portal. Next day(s) it reports production to the portal but the missing data is never filled in. I have attached a small graph from the portal dashboard. Typically if a network connection goes down, and then is restored the data should be uploaded after the connection is back on line. In this case their remains a hole in the data, for that day, indicating that data was never uploaded. We had one system which exhibited this "missing data" symptom on accasion over a 2 month period of time. This was diagnosed, as a failing comm card. Once that was replaced we have not seen the issue recur for that site. But now we are seeing similar behavior from three other sites, all installed a in the second half of 2012. Just wondering if anyone else has encountered this. Thanks Carl Adams SunRock Solar Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ScreenShot_236 Apr. 18, 2016 10.46.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45449 bytes Desc: not available URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Mon Apr 18 14:26:42 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:26:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge comm card failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carl, We experienced a rash of Comm Card issues with several SE installs over several years, but none exactly as you describe. Our issues were almost all resolved with a board replacement, but a few were particularly vexing with many return service calls to get a resolution. We seemed to have the most problems with the single phase 10k inverters. In general, SE tech support was helpful, although a bit paint-by-numbers at times, as well as very slow to answer for much of 2015. As best I can tell, the issues have begun to settle down most recently. Howie *Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Anyone experiencing issues with comm card failures on SolarEdge > inverters? We have some systems installed in 2012 exhibiting similar > behaviors. The systems are producing data, it is registering on the > inverter, and our independent utilty meter, but is not reported to the > SolarEdge portal. Next day(s) it reports production to the portal but the > missing data is never filled in. I have attached a small graph from the > portal dashboard. > > Typically if a network connection goes down, and then is restored the data > should be uploaded after the connection is back on line. In this case > their remains a hole in the data, for that day, indicating that data was > never uploaded. > > We had one system which exhibited this "missing data" symptom on accasion > over a 2 month period of time. This was diagnosed, as a failing comm > card. Once that was replaced we have not seen the issue recur for that > site. But now we are seeing similar behavior from three other sites, all > installed a in the second half of 2012. > > Just wondering if anyone else has encountered this. > > Thanks > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_3325038974001079228_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Apr 18 16:18:06 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 16:18:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Delta Solivia Message-ID: <20160418201810.8F3B3282058@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have experience with Delta Solivia inverters? Are they good and reliable? Do they have any drawbacks, like having a high noise level, nuisance shut downs, failures, etc? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Apr 19 12:04:04 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 Amp PV breaker tripping Message-ID: Hi All, I recall a thread not so long ago where someone was having an issue with a system tripping the 60 A PV input breaker. I am unable to find it by searching the archives. I have a system with the same issue. I tried replacing the breaker but it did not solve the issue. Can someone connect me to that post thread and/or remind me of the solution to that problem (if one was found). Thanks much, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 13:03:04 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:03:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 Amp PV breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this a new or old problem And any changes ( equipment etc)just before the problem started? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:04 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Hi All, > > I recall a thread not so long ago where someone was having an issue with a system tripping the 60 A PV input breaker. I am unable to find it by searching the archives. I have a system with the same issue. I tried replacing the breaker but it did not solve the issue. > > Can someone connect me to that post thread and/or remind me of the solution to that problem (if one was found). > > Thanks much, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Apr 19 15:15:45 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:15:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 Amp PV breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No recent changes, Jay. System has been installed since 2009. 16 Kyocera KD180 Wattsun tracker Xantrex XW4548 Xantrex XW MPPT60-150 24 L16s (very tired but surviving) Could the old batteries cause the CC to pull too much PV current? Even at 1.25 times the Isc of my strings, i should only be pulling 41.75A maximum. On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Jay wrote: > Is this a new or old problem > And any changes ( equipment etc)just before the problem started? > > Jay > Peltz power > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:04 AM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I recall a thread not so long ago where someone was having an issue with a > system tripping the 60 A PV input breaker. I am unable to find it by > searching the archives. I have a system with the same issue. I tried > replacing the breaker but it did not solve the issue. > > Can someone connect me to that post thread and/or remind me of the > solution to that problem (if one was found). > > Thanks much, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 15:25:32 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:25:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 Amp PV breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did you check for loose connections? Kirpal Khalsa Oregon Solarworks On Apr 19, 2016 12:15 PM, "Kristopher Schmid" wrote: > No recent changes, Jay. System has been installed since 2009. > 16 Kyocera KD180 > Wattsun tracker > Xantrex XW4548 > Xantrex XW MPPT60-150 > 24 L16s (very tired but surviving) > > Could the old batteries cause the CC to pull too much PV current? Even at > 1.25 times the Isc of my strings, i should only be pulling 41.75A maximum. > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Jay wrote: > >> Is this a new or old problem >> And any changes ( equipment etc)just before the problem started? >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:04 AM, Kristopher Schmid >> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I recall a thread not so long ago where someone was having an issue with >> a system tripping the 60 A PV input breaker. I am unable to find it by >> searching the archives. I have a system with the same issue. I tried >> replacing the breaker but it did not solve the issue. >> >> Can someone connect me to that post thread and/or remind me of the >> solution to that problem (if one was found). >> >> Thanks much, >> Kris >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Apr 19 15:37:55 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:37:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 Amp PV breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7FE0CC7B-D972-4BA5-973A-4549338DF4E9@starlightsolar.com> The thread subject was "Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????” It was on 10-26-15 from Daniel Tittmann. He never posted the solution but there are several suggestions. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:04 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Hi All, I recall a thread not so long ago where someone was having an issue with a system tripping the 60 A PV input breaker. I am unable to find it by searching the archives. I have a system with the same issue. I tried replacing the breaker but it did not solve the issue. Can someone connect me to that post thread and/or remind me of the solution to that problem (if one was found). Thanks much, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 22:44:02 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 22:44:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge comm card failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, Thanks for your response. I would agree that we have not seen this problem with systems installed after 2012. The technology has improved, and the Comm card in the inverter has been thru several iterations since then. I would also agree that SE has improved on their tech support response time this year and the "with the paint by numbers" description of tech support response. Based on my limited experience, I surmised a failing communications card in the inverter. I had a hell of a time convincing SE tech support this was the issue. We were on site troubleshooting this today and after checking that we could ping Google from the inverter connection, and establish a TCP connection to the SolarEdge server via the laptop on that connection, and trying to step thru the inverter programming with a non responsive push button interface, the SE tech agreed to send us a new comm card. But only after rolling a truck, jumping through a few hoops on the phone with SE support, did we get that agreement. I felt like most of this troubleshooting was above what I could expect of most field techs, without significant computer experience. Note this is the card which contains the digital display for the inverter, and the one which interfaces with the push button display on the inverter. This is not an add-on accessory. One other symptom of this problem is that the push button interface for scrolling through the SE inverter menus is intermittent in its response. You may push the button multiple times before you get a response on the screen. Same behavior if you use the push buttons under the front cover of the inverter. Another symptom is that the indicator does not display on the first and sixth display screens. indicates the unit is unable to connect to the Solar Edge portal. I have two other sites which exhibit similar symptoms; missing data reports to the portal on random days in the past few months. The inverters are working fine but the data is not being uploaded to the portal on some days. I asked SE for a part number for the comm card so I could stock a spare. Unfortunately they were unable to provide a part number, which I could order from my distributor and take to the site to troubleshoot these sites. Apparently these are only supplied after you jump through enough hoops with tech support. I found this aggravating to say the least. I hope this is helpful. With Kind Regards Carl Adams SunRock Solar On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Carl, > > We experienced a rash of Comm Card issues with several SE installs over > several years, but none exactly as you describe. Our issues were almost > all resolved with a board replacement, but a few were particularly vexing > with many return service calls to get a resolution. We seemed to have the > most problems with the single phase 10k inverters. In general, SE tech > support was helpful, although a bit paint-by-numbers at times, as well as > very slow to answer for much of 2015. As best I can tell, the issues have > begun to settle down most recently. > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson* > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > Sun Catcher, LLC > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Carl Adams > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Anyone experiencing issues with comm card failures on SolarEdge >> inverters? We have some systems installed in 2012 exhibiting similar >> behaviors. The systems are producing data, it is registering on the >> inverter, and our independent utilty meter, but is not reported to the >> SolarEdge portal. Next day(s) it reports production to the portal but the >> missing data is never filled in. I have attached a small graph from the >> portal dashboard. >> >> Typically if a network connection goes down, and then is restored the >> data should be uploaded after the connection is back on line. In this case >> their remains a hole in the data, for that day, indicating that data was >> never uploaded. >> >> We had one system which exhibited this "missing data" symptom on accasion >> over a 2 month period of time. This was diagnosed, as a failing comm >> card. Once that was replaced we have not seen the issue recur for that >> site. But now we are seeing similar behavior from three other sites, all >> installed a in the second half of 2012. >> >> Just wondering if anyone else has encountered this. >> >> Thanks >> Carl Adams >> SunRock Solar >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_4737906340813698097_m_3325038974001079228_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 20:35:40 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:35:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 Amp PV breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7925D468-79A1-4995-8AF2-B2682080720C@gmail.com> I’d put my money on the batteries are getting really bad. The easiest “fix” is to put say 10’ of #6 between the CC and the battery connection. It will probably keep the surge down to below the CC breaker trip point. boB at midnite suggests you actually wire it to the battery and not the main battery buss in the XW box. The reason is for more wire, to help dampen the surge that is put onto the CC Hope this helps jay peltz power > On Apr 19, 2016, at 12:15 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > No recent changes, Jay. System has been installed since 2009. > 16 Kyocera KD180 > Wattsun tracker > Xantrex XW4548 > Xantrex XW MPPT60-150 > 24 L16s (very tired but surviving) > > Could the old batteries cause the CC to pull too much PV current? Even at 1.25 times the Isc of my strings, i should only be pulling 41.75A maximum. > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Jay > wrote: > Is this a new or old problem > And any changes ( equipment etc)just before the problem started? > > Jay > Peltz power > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:04 AM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I recall a thread not so long ago where someone was having an issue with a system tripping the 60 A PV input breaker. I am unable to find it by searching the archives. I have a system with the same issue. I tried replacing the breaker but it did not solve the issue. >> >> Can someone connect me to that post thread and/or remind me of the solution to that problem (if one was found). >> >> Thanks much, >> Kris >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 21:20:21 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:20:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small inverters In-Reply-To: <7FE0CC7B-D972-4BA5-973A-4549338DF4E9@starlightsolar.com> References: <7FE0CC7B-D972-4BA5-973A-4549338DF4E9@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi All, I’ve got someone looking for a small inverter. 12 or 24v, 300-1000 watts is the range. I’ve had such bad experiences with magnum that I am just not wanting to use them ever again. Many of the small units ( samalex etc) have a fan that runs, makes too much noise, high idle current. I’d like pure sine wave. Morning star 300 watt is a nice unit, would be on the small side. Exeltech are nice but I think maybe have too much idle power. Any other options out there than I folks can recommend? Thanks jay peltz power From wayne at pureenergysolar.com Wed Apr 20 21:43:17 2016 From: wayne at pureenergysolar.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:43:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small inverters In-Reply-To: References: , <7FE0CC7B-D972-4BA5-973A-4549338DF4E9@starlightsolar.com>, Message-ID: Hey Jay, We use a 100's of the Morningstar 300 for a product that we manufacture and couldn't be happier with them. We have begged Morningstar to make a higher wattage version to no avail. For higher wattage we have been using the Xantrex Prowatt inverters and have had good success with reliability and performance. Yes they are still being manufactured under the Xantrex name. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > From: jay.peltz at gmail.com > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:20:21 -0700 > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] small inverters > > Hi All, > > I’ve got someone looking for a small inverter. 12 or 24v, 300-1000 watts is the range. > > I’ve had such bad experiences with magnum that I am just not wanting to use them ever again. > > Many of the small units ( samalex etc) have a fan that runs, makes too much noise, high idle current. > > I’d like pure sine wave. > > Morning star 300 watt is a nice unit, would be on the small side. > > Exeltech are nice but I think maybe have too much idle power. > > Any other options out there than I folks can recommend? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Wed Apr 20 22:36:52 2016 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 02:36:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] float switch for grundfos submersible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1857313702.4862725.1461206212629.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks-- Can anyone recommend a non-factory, inline float switch for a Grundfos pv-powered submersible? Not interested in paying the $350 for the Grundfos controller.The float switch contacts will need to handle the arcing of about 120 VDC.  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Apr 20 22:50:51 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:50:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small inverters In-Reply-To: References: <7FE0CC7B-D972-4BA5-973A-4549338DF4E9@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <5718400B.8040103@solarray.com> Hi Wayne; Which GFCI outlets do you use? We've had trouble with random tripping with the Morningstar. I switched outlet models, thought I fixed it, but its tripping again. Morningstar's list of approved GFCIs is outdated. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/20/2016 7:43 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > Hey Jay, > > We use a 100's of the Morningstar 300 for a product that we > manufacture and couldn't be happier with them. We have begged > Morningstar to make a higher wattage version to no avail. For higher > wattage we have been using the Xantrex Prowatt inverters and have had > good success with reliability and performance. Yes they are still > being manufactured under the Xantrex name. > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you > are not the intended recipient and have received this message in > error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me > immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer > system. Thank you. > > > > > From: jay.peltz at gmail.com > > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:20:21 -0700 > > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] small inverters > > > > Hi All, > > > > I’ve got someone looking for a small inverter. 12 or 24v, 300-1000 > watts is the range. > > > > I’ve had such bad experiences with magnum that I am just not wanting > to use them ever again. > > > > Many of the small units ( samalex etc) have a fan that runs, makes > too much noise, high idle current. > > > > I’d like pure sine wave. > > > > Morning star 300 watt is a nice unit, would be on the small side. > > > > Exeltech are nice but I think maybe have too much idle power. > > > > Any other options out there than I folks can recommend? > > > > Thanks > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Apr 21 01:33:07 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:33:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Willits_Ca=2E_Off_Grid_Anyone=3F?= Message-ID: <20160420223307.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7950446dad.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Apr 21 11:56:43 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:56:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC In-Reply-To: <5718400B.8040103@solarray.com> References: <7FE0CC7B-D972-4BA5-973A-4549338DF4E9@starlightsolar.com> <5718400B.8040103@solarray.com> Message-ID: <000901d19be6$67ca7580$375f6080$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads. The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been given seven (7) 1-1/2" PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent the critical loads. So I have two questions: (1) Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits? (2) Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they didn't. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account. Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation? - Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pshortell6 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 13:35:21 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick A. Shortell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:35:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC In-Reply-To: <571907b4.5443620a.e1a8d.ffffba9fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <7FE0CC7B-D972-4BA5-973A-4549338DF4E9@starlightsolar.com> <5718400B.8040103@solarray.com> <571907b4.5443620a.e1a8d.ffffba9fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1C2D256C-B86B-4A76-B2F8-4C9A6F5514D8@gmail.com> You should find your answers in 310.15 Patrick A. Shortell Licensed Master Electrician Certified Solar Installer 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 Www.thesolarstorehouse.com > On Apr 21, 2016, at 11:56 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: > > I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads. > > The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent the critical loads. > > So I have two questions: > > (1) Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits? > (2) Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they didn’t. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account. > > Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation? > > - Peter Parrish > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 21 14:08:25 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:08:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC In-Reply-To: <1C2D256C-B86B-4A76-B2F8-4C9A6F5514D8@gmail.com> References: <7FE0CC7B-D972-4BA5-973A-4549338DF4E9@starlightsolar.com> <5718400B.8040103@solarray.com> <571907b4.5443620a.e1a8d.ffffba9fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <1C2D256C-B86B-4A76-B2F8-4C9A6F5514D8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57191719.8050500@solarray.com> Also look at the notes to the tables in Chapter 9. For conduit fill,=20 all wires are counted. 310.15 covers ampacity derating for more than 3=20 current carrying conductors in the raceway. The key is "current carrying=20 conductors". The neutral definitely carries current. You don't have to=20 count grounding conductors, control, or signal wiring for that ampacity=20 derating, because they don't create heat. But they still count for=20 conduit fill, though. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/21/2016 11:35 AM, Patrick A. Shortell wrote: > You should find your answers in 310.15 > > Patrick A. Shortell > Licensed Master Electrician > Certified Solar Installer > 71 Oregon Street > Long Beach N.Y. 11561 > Www.thesolarstorehouse.com > > > On Apr 21, 2016, at 11:56 AM, Peter Parrish=20 > >=20 > wrote: > >> I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and=20 >> addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists,=20 >> and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV=20 >> system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load shifting. The main=20 >> panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and batteries are all going=20 >> to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the house. The=20 >> customer and I have identified the critical loads. >> >> The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have=20 >> been given seven (7) 1-1/2=E2=80=9D PVC conduits, and I am currently doi= ng=20 >> conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch=20 >> circuits that represent the critical loads. >> >> So I have two questions: >> >> (1)Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits? >> >> (2)Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think=20 >> they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they=20 >> didn=E2=80=99t. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based so= lely=20 >> on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account. >> >> Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation? >> >> -Peter Parrish >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> >> President, SolarGnosis >> >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. >> >> Suite 351 >> >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> >> (323) 839-6108 >> >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:=20 >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h= tml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 21 13:24:56 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 10:24:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC Message-ID: <25db93b55efa6c5947e142b6bd9050c2@mail.gmail.com> Peter: I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house. Running branch circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not efficient or practical. Voltage drop: 1% VD is a choice, not a requirement. Code requires 3% on feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits. I like to use 1% for average voltage drop for PV because of the cost of wasted PV energy. I am more lax on AC circuits. If I calculate a PV feeder for 1%, that drop will occur only occasionally, when peak solar is achieved. Analyze your load or charging profiles and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for average use. Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately 50% of the energy is under the bell curve. Neutrals are current carrying. Try powering a 120VAC load without one and you will see what I mean. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Parrish *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads. The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent the critical loads. So I have two questions: (1) Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits? (2) Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they didn’t. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account. Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation? - Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Apr 21 15:40:30 2016 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:40:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems In-Reply-To: <310612.71959.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <690A143C43A743648BA861E7F35295B1@OasisChris> Dear people: I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16 of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and other components). He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'. He's at a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to time. They believe that the "batteries are too powerful for the 8.5 kw generator" and recommended running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3 hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and hence, use more fuel). Have you ever heard of anything like this? Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade. Thanks for your input! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Apr 21 16:28:01 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:28:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC In-Reply-To: <25db93b55efa6c5947e142b6bd9050c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <25db93b55efa6c5947e142b6bd9050c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00fc01d19c0c$4e435070$eac9f150$@parrish@calsolareng.com> William, I agree about the subpanel in the house situation. The customer is a bit eccentric, and I have tried to bring him around. And I have explained to him that his approach will be more expensive. He doesn’t care. In the end, there is no safety risk. So I’ll plan for 4 branch circuits per conduit and take the 0.70 derating. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:25 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC Peter: I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house. Running branch circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not efficient or practical. Voltage drop: 1% VD is a choice, not a requirement. Code requires 3% on feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits. I like to use 1% for average voltage drop for PV because of the cost of wasted PV energy. I am more lax on AC circuits. If I calculate a PV feeder for 1%, that drop will occur only occasionally, when peak solar is achieved. Analyze your load or charging profiles and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for average use. Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately 50% of the energy is under the bell curve. Neutrals are current carrying. Try powering a 120VAC load without one and you will see what I mean. William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads. The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent the critical loads. So I have two questions: (1) Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits? (2) Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they didn’t. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account. Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation? - Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Apr 21 17:17:47 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 21:17:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems In-Reply-To: <690A143C43A743648BA861E7F35295B1@OasisChris> References: <310612.71959.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <690A143C43A743648BA861E7F35295B1@OasisChris> Message-ID: <6d11add7f6ac41e58c77e49b155e7aeb@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Chris, The problem summary is a bit light on details to be too specific. What, precisely, does a generator running "rough" mean? Overheating? Smoking? Breaker tripping? THE MS4448 has about 3 kW charging capability (63A @ 50 VDC). So the 8.5 kW Kohler should be able to handle that easily, depending on what else is running. Derating the charge capacity to 1.5 kW not sure what that would accomplish other than burning more fuel. Sounds like perhaps a generator service is in order. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Daum Sent: April-21-16 12:41 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems Dear people: I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16 of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and other components). He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'. He's at a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to time. They believe that the "batteries are too powerful for the 8.5 kw generator" and recommended running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3 hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and hence, use more fuel). Have you ever heard of anything like this? Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade. Thanks for your input! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 21 17:26:35 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:26:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems In-Reply-To: <690A143C43A743648BA861E7F35295B1@OasisChris> References: <690A143C43A743648BA861E7F35295B1@OasisChris> Message-ID: <5719458B.5060708@solarray.com> That doesn't make sense, the inverter's charger determines the max charge rate and the max draw from the generator. The 8.5 kW Kohler should have no problem running the 4.4 kW Magnum. What is the altitude? Is it wired for 240 vac ? If the generator is running at 120 vac, then you are only running on one leg and hence operating at half power. It will also lead to long term damage of the generator. Its like pedaling a bicycle with one pedal. The Magnum MS4448 PAE is designed for 240vac input. The problem might only be showing itself now, because the new batteries are actually requiring closer to full charger power from the Magnum. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/21/2016 1:40 PM, Chris Daum wrote: > Dear people: > > I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16 > of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and > other components). He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since > he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'. He's at > a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to > time. They believe that the "batteries are too powerful for the 8.5 kw > generator" and recommended running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3 > hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and > hence, use more fuel). Have you ever heard of anything like this? > Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade. > > Thanks for your input! > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-0830 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Apr 21 18:06:31 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:06:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] float switch for grundfos submersible In-Reply-To: <1857313702.4862725.1461206212629.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1857313702.4862725.1461206212629.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57194EE7.6050006@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Apr 21 18:10:37 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:10:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small inverters In-Reply-To: References: <7FE0CC7B-D972-4BA5-973A-4549338DF4E9@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <57194FDD.8070904@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 02:58:54 2016 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 20:58:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC In-Reply-To: <57193953.0730420a.f72b9.ffff855cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <25db93b55efa6c5947e142b6bd9050c2@mail.gmail.com> <57193953.0730420a.f72b9.ffff855cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Straight from Mike Holt: *Neutral Conductor* The neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V system, or 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/408V wye-connected system isn’t considered a current-carrying conductor. The neutral conductor of a 3-wire circuit from a 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277V/480V wye-connected system is considered a current-carrying conductor. When a 3-wire circuit is supplied from a 4-wire 3-[phase wye-connected system, the neutral conductor carries approximately the same current as the ungrounded conductors. The neutral conductor of a 4-wire 3-phase circuit is considered a current-carrying conductor where the major portion of the neutral load consists of nonlinear loads. This is because harmonic currents will be present in the neutral conductor, even if the loads on each of the 3 phases are balanced. Nonlinear loads supplied by 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/480V wye-connected systems can produce unwanted and potentially hazardous triplen harmonic currents (3rd, 9th, 15th, etc.) that can add on the neutral conductor. To prevent fire or equipment damage from excessive harmonic neutral current, the designer should consider increasing the size of the neutral conductor or installing a separate neutral for each phase. see 210.4(A) FPN, 220.61 FPN 2, and 450.3 FPN 2. Grounding (earthing) and bonding conductors aren’t considered current carrying. For individual dwelling units or one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings, Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to size 3-wire single-phase 120/240V service or feeder conductors (including neutral conductors) that serve as the main power feeder. Feeder conductors are not required to have an ampacity rating greater than the service conductors [215.2(A)(3)]. Warning: Table 310.15(B)(6) doesn’t apply to 3-wire single-phase 120/208V systems, because the grounded neutral conductor in these systems carries neutral current even when the load on the phases is balanced [310.15(B)(4)(6)]. For more information on this topic, see 220.61(C)(1). *Grounded Neutral Conductor Sizing.* Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to size the grounded neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V service or feeder that serves as the main power feeder, based on the feeder calculated load in accordance with 220.61. Because the grounded neutral service conductor is required to serve as the effective ground-fault current path, it must be sized so that it can safely carry the maximum fault current likely to be imposed on it [110.10 and 250.4(A)(5)]. This is accomplished by sizing the grounded neutral conductor in accordance with Table 250.66, based on the total area of the largest ungrounded conductor [250.24(C)(1)]. aloha and happy trails... On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > William, > > > > I agree about the subpanel in the house situation. The customer is a bit > eccentric, and I have tried to bring him around. And I have explained to > him that his approach will be more expensive. He doesn’t care. In the end, > there is no safety risk. So I’ll plan for 4 branch circuits per conduit and > take the 0.70 derating. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:25 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC > > > > Peter: > > > > I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house. Running > branch circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not efficient or > practical. > > > > Voltage drop: 1% VD is a choice, not a requirement. Code requires 3% on > feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits. I like to use 1% for > average voltage drop for PV because of the cost of wasted PV energy. I am > more lax on AC circuits. If I calculate a PV feeder for 1%, that drop will > occur only occasionally, when peak solar is achieved. Analyze your load or > charging profiles and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for > average use. Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately > 50% of the energy is under the bell curve. > > > > Neutrals are current carrying. Try powering a 120VAC load without one and > you will see what I mean. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Peter Parrish > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC > > > > I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition > to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not > a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of > storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical > load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is > about 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the > critical loads. > > > > The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been > given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, > ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that > represent the critical loads. > > > > So I have two questions: > > > > (1) Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits? > > (2) Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think > they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they didn’t. I > thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses > and phasing was not taken into account. > > > > Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation? > > > > - Peter Parrish > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Apr 24 20:26:35 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:26:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC In-Reply-To: References: <25db93b55efa6c5947e142b6bd9050c2@mail.gmail.com> <57193953.0730420a.f72b9.ffff855cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <571D643B.1050804@solarray.com> However, in this case, Peter's installing lots of 120 vac branch=20 circuits, so all of those neutrals will be carrying full current (unless=20 they are shared neutral circuits). Mike Holt's exception would apply to=20 240vac circuits if they had a neutral. Further, Holt's exception would=20 not be applicable on any off grid system that was 120 vac only. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/24/2016 12:58 AM, James Rudolph wrote: > Straight from Mike Holt: > > *Neutral Conductor* > > The neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V system, or=20 > 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/408V wye-connected system isn=E2=80=99t=20 > considered a current-carrying conductor. > > The neutral conductor of a 3-wire circuit from a 4-wire 3-phase=20 > 120/208V or 277V/480V wye-connected system is considered a=20 > current-carrying conductor. > > When a 3-wire circuit is supplied from a 4-wire 3-[phase wye-connected=20 > system, the neutral conductor carries approximately the same current=20 > as the ungrounded conductors. > > The neutral conductor of a 4-wire 3-phase circuit is considered a=20 > current-carrying conductor where the major portion of the neutral load=20 > consists of nonlinear loads. This is because harmonic currents will be=20 > present in the neutral conductor, even if the loads on each of the 3=20 > phases are balanced. > > Nonlinear loads supplied by 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/480V=20 > wye-connected systems can produce unwanted and potentially hazardous=20 > triplen harmonic currents (3rd, 9th, 15th, etc.) that can add on the=20 > neutral conductor. To prevent fire or equipment damage from excessive=20 > harmonic neutral current, the designer should consider increasing the=20 > size of the neutral conductor or installing a separate neutral for=20 > each phase. see 210.4(A) FPN, 220.61 FPN 2, and 450.3 FPN 2. > > Grounding (earthing) and bonding conductors aren=E2=80=99t considered cur= rent=20 > carrying. > > For individual dwelling units or one-family, two-family, and=20 > multifamily dwellings, Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to size 3-wire=20 > single-phase 120/240V service or feeder conductors (including neutral=20 > conductors) that serve as the main power feeder. Feeder conductors are=20 > not required to have an ampacity rating greater than the service=20 > conductors [215.2(A)(3)]. > > Warning: Table 310.15(B)(6) doesn=E2=80=99t apply to 3-wire single-phase = > 120/208V systems, because the grounded neutral conductor in these=20 > systems carries neutral current even when the load on the phases is=20 > balanced [310.15(B)(4)(6)]. For more information on this topic, see=20 > 220.61(C)(1). > > /Grounded Neutral Conductor Sizing./ Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to=20 > size the grounded neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V=20 > service or feeder that serves as the main power feeder, based on the=20 > feeder calculated load in accordance with 220.61. > > Because the grounded neutral service conductor is required to serve as=20 > the effective ground-fault current path, it must be sized so that it=20 > can safely carry the maximum fault current likely to be imposed on it=20 > [110.10 and 250.4(A)(5)]. This is accomplished by sizing the grounded=20 > neutral conductor in accordance with Table 250.66, based on the total=20 > area of the largest ungrounded conductor [250.24(C)(1)]. > > aloha and happy trails... > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Peter Parrish=20 > >=20 > wrote: > > William, > > I agree about the subpanel in the house situation. The customer is > a bit eccentric, and I have tried to bring him around. And I have > explained to him that his approach will be more expensive. He > doesn=E2=80=99t care. In the end, there is no safety risk. So I=E2=80= =99ll plan > for 4 branch circuits per conduit and take the 0.70 derating. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *William Miller > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:25 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC > > Peter: > > I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house.=20 > Running branch circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not > efficient or practical. > > Voltage drop: 1% VD is a choice, not a requirement. Code requires > 3% on feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits. I like to > use 1% for average voltage drop for PV because of the cost of > wasted PV energy. I am more lax on AC circuits. If I calculate a > PV feeder for 1%, that drop will occur only occasionally, when > peak solar is achieved. Analyze your load or charging profiles > and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for average use. > Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately 50% of > the energy is under the bell curve. > > Neutrals are current carrying. Try powering a 120VAC load without > one and you will see what I mean. > > William Miller > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Peter Parrish > *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC > > I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and > addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor > joists, and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a > 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load > shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and > batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet > from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads. > > The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I > have been given seven (7) 1-1/2=E2=80=9D PVC conduits, and I am curre= ntly > doing conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the > branch circuits that represent the critical loads. > > So I have two questions: > > (1)Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits? > > (2)Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think > they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they > didn=E2=80=99t. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based > solely on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account. > > Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation? > > -Peter Parrish > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > --=20 > * > James B. Rudolph* > *Haleakala Solar* * > * > *Director of Construction* > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 > * > * > * > * > * > > * > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Apr 25 10:04:03 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:04:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC In-Reply-To: References: <25db93b55efa6c5947e142b6bd9050c2@mail.gmail.com> <57193953.0730420a.f72b9.ffff855cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2bf24353cc49d40c9b6422aefbc53c1e@mail.gmail.com> In addition to what is stated below, my understanding is that neutrals in many commonly used inverter output circuits are not current carrying conductors either. You’ll have to check with your inverter manufacturer to be certain, however. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *James Rudolph *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:59 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC Straight from Mike Holt: *Neutral Conductor* The neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V system, or 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/408V wye-connected system isn’t considered a current-carrying conductor. The neutral conductor of a 3-wire circuit from a 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277V/480V wye-connected system is considered a current-carrying conductor. When a 3-wire circuit is supplied from a 4-wire 3-[phase wye-connected system, the neutral conductor carries approximately the same current as the ungrounded conductors. The neutral conductor of a 4-wire 3-phase circuit is considered a current-carrying conductor where the major portion of the neutral load consists of nonlinear loads. This is because harmonic currents will be present in the neutral conductor, even if the loads on each of the 3 phases are balanced. Nonlinear loads supplied by 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/480V wye-connected systems can produce unwanted and potentially hazardous triplen harmonic currents (3rd, 9th, 15th, etc.) that can add on the neutral conductor. To prevent fire or equipment damage from excessive harmonic neutral current, the designer should consider increasing the size of the neutral conductor or installing a separate neutral for each phase. see 210.4(A) FPN, 220.61 FPN 2, and 450.3 FPN 2. Grounding (earthing) and bonding conductors aren’t considered current carrying. For individual dwelling units or one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings, Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to size 3-wire single-phase 120/240V service or feeder conductors (including neutral conductors) that serve as the main power feeder. Feeder conductors are not required to have an ampacity rating greater than the service conductors [215.2(A)(3)]. Warning: Table 310.15(B)(6) doesn’t apply to 3-wire single-phase 120/208V systems, because the grounded neutral conductor in these systems carries neutral current even when the load on the phases is balanced [310.15(B)(4)(6)]. For more information on this topic, see 220.61(C)(1). *Grounded Neutral Conductor Sizing.* Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to size the grounded neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V service or feeder that serves as the main power feeder, based on the feeder calculated load in accordance with 220.61. Because the grounded neutral service conductor is required to serve as the effective ground-fault current path, it must be sized so that it can safely carry the maximum fault current likely to be imposed on it [110.10 and 250.4(A)(5)]. This is accomplished by sizing the grounded neutral conductor in accordance with Table 250.66, based on the total area of the largest ungrounded conductor [250.24(C)(1)]. aloha and happy trails... On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: William, I agree about the subpanel in the house situation. The customer is a bit eccentric, and I have tried to bring him around. And I have explained to him that his approach will be more expensive. He doesn’t care. In the end, there is no safety risk. So I’ll plan for 4 branch circuits per conduit and take the 0.70 derating. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:25 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC Peter: I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house. Running branch circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not efficient or practical. Voltage drop: 1% VD is a choice, not a requirement. Code requires 3% on feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits. I like to use 1% for average voltage drop for PV because of the cost of wasted PV energy. I am more lax on AC circuits. If I calculate a PV feeder for 1%, that drop will occur only occasionally, when peak solar is achieved. Analyze your load or charging profiles and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for average use. Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately 50% of the energy is under the bell curve. Neutrals are current carrying. Try powering a 120VAC load without one and you will see what I mean. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Parrish *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads. The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent the critical loads. So I have two questions: (1) Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits? (2) Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they didn’t. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account. Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation? - Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Apr 25 12:15:36 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:15:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC In-Reply-To: <2bf24353cc49d40c9b6422aefbc53c1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <25db93b55efa6c5947e142b6bd9050c2@mail.gmail.com> <57193953.0730420a.f72b9.ffff855cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <2bf24353cc49d40c9b6422aefbc53c1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64f15de9b02a0bae882bdc3472f07564@mail.gmail.com> All – I’ve had some off-list responses to my post below that I wanted to share. Specifically, I was speaking about standard grid-tied inverters when I mentioned that their neutrals may not count as current carrying. I just confirmed this with SMA, for example. Off grid or stand alone inverters are likely to have current on the neutral. Peter, since it sounds like you have battery backup in your example it sounds like you will need to count the neutrals between your inverter(s) and critical loads as current carrying. Best, August *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 7:04 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC In addition to what is stated below, my understanding is that neutrals in many commonly used inverter output circuits are not current carrying conductors either. You’ll have to check with your inverter manufacturer to be certain, however. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *James Rudolph *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:59 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC Straight from Mike Holt: *Neutral Conductor* The neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V system, or 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/408V wye-connected system isn’t considered a current-carrying conductor. The neutral conductor of a 3-wire circuit from a 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277V/480V wye-connected system is considered a current-carrying conductor. When a 3-wire circuit is supplied from a 4-wire 3-[phase wye-connected system, the neutral conductor carries approximately the same current as the ungrounded conductors. The neutral conductor of a 4-wire 3-phase circuit is considered a current-carrying conductor where the major portion of the neutral load consists of nonlinear loads. This is because harmonic currents will be present in the neutral conductor, even if the loads on each of the 3 phases are balanced. Nonlinear loads supplied by 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/480V wye-connected systems can produce unwanted and potentially hazardous triplen harmonic currents (3rd, 9th, 15th, etc.) that can add on the neutral conductor. To prevent fire or equipment damage from excessive harmonic neutral current, the designer should consider increasing the size of the neutral conductor or installing a separate neutral for each phase. see 210.4(A) FPN, 220.61 FPN 2, and 450.3 FPN 2. Grounding (earthing) and bonding conductors aren’t considered current carrying. For individual dwelling units or one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings, Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to size 3-wire single-phase 120/240V service or feeder conductors (including neutral conductors) that serve as the main power feeder. Feeder conductors are not required to have an ampacity rating greater than the service conductors [215.2(A)(3)]. Warning: Table 310.15(B)(6) doesn’t apply to 3-wire single-phase 120/208V systems, because the grounded neutral conductor in these systems carries neutral current even when the load on the phases is balanced [310.15(B)(4)(6)]. For more information on this topic, see 220.61(C)(1). *Grounded Neutral Conductor Sizing.* Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to size the grounded neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V service or feeder that serves as the main power feeder, based on the feeder calculated load in accordance with 220.61. Because the grounded neutral service conductor is required to serve as the effective ground-fault current path, it must be sized so that it can safely carry the maximum fault current likely to be imposed on it [110.10 and 250.4(A)(5)]. This is accomplished by sizing the grounded neutral conductor in accordance with Table 250.66, based on the total area of the largest ungrounded conductor [250.24(C)(1)]. aloha and happy trails... On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: William, I agree about the subpanel in the house situation. The customer is a bit eccentric, and I have tried to bring him around. And I have explained to him that his approach will be more expensive. He doesn’t care. In the end, there is no safety risk. So I’ll plan for 4 branch circuits per conduit and take the 0.70 derating. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:25 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC Peter: I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house. Running branch circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not efficient or practical. Voltage drop: 1% VD is a choice, not a requirement. Code requires 3% on feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits. I like to use 1% for average voltage drop for PV because of the cost of wasted PV energy. I am more lax on AC circuits. If I calculate a PV feeder for 1%, that drop will occur only occasionally, when peak solar is achieved. Analyze your load or charging profiles and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for average use. Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately 50% of the energy is under the bell curve. Neutrals are current carrying. Try powering a 120VAC load without one and you will see what I mean. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Parrish *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads. The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent the critical loads. So I have two questions: (1) Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits? (2) Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they didn’t. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account. Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation? - Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Mon Apr 25 14:11:19 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:11:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 Amp PV breaker tripping In-Reply-To: <7925D468-79A1-4995-8AF2-B2682080720C@gmail.com> References: <7925D468-79A1-4995-8AF2-B2682080720C@gmail.com> Message-ID: The classic 150 with a 100 amp breaker tripping. Solution was to swap out the charge controller and breaker. No more problems, sent them both back to midnite and they both tested fine. New controller and breaker are working fine. Never did find what was causing the issue just found a solution. Cheers- Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 5:35 PM, jay wrote: > I’d put my money on the batteries are getting really bad. > The easiest “fix” is to put say 10’ of #6 between the CC and the battery > connection. It will probably keep the surge down to below the CC breaker > trip point. > boB at midnite suggests you actually wire it to the battery and not the > main battery buss in the XW box. The reason is for more wire, to help > dampen the surge that is put onto the CC > Hope this helps > > jay > > peltz power > > On Apr 19, 2016, at 12:15 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > > No recent changes, Jay. System has been installed since 2009. > 16 Kyocera KD180 > Wattsun tracker > Xantrex XW4548 > Xantrex XW MPPT60-150 > 24 L16s (very tired but surviving) > > Could the old batteries cause the CC to pull too much PV current? Even at > 1.25 times the Isc of my strings, i should only be pulling 41.75A maximum. > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Jay wrote: > >> Is this a new or old problem >> And any changes ( equipment etc)just before the problem started? >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:04 AM, Kristopher Schmid >> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I recall a thread not so long ago where someone was having an issue with >> a system tripping the 60 A PV input breaker. I am unable to find it by >> searching the archives. I have a system with the same issue. I tried >> replacing the breaker but it did not solve the issue. >> >> Can someone connect me to that post thread and/or remind me of the >> solution to that problem (if one was found). >> >> Thanks much, >> Kris >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Apr 25 15:07:50 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 14:07:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for a SolarWorld module Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I was short one SW 275 Protect module on an install and substituted a SW 275 mono expecting that i could swap it out, but SolarWorld has not been running those for a long time, so... Does anyone have a SW 275 Protect module (or larger wattage) on the shelf? Thanks, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Apr 25 23:15:41 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 21:15:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question Message-ID: <571EDD5D.5030402@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Tue Apr 26 06:41:40 2016 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 06:41:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems In-Reply-To: <690A143C43A743648BA861E7F35295B1@OasisChris> References: <310612.71959.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <690A143C43A743648BA861E7F35295B1@OasisChris> Message-ID: <00d201d19fa8$38498740$a8dc95c0$@net> Chris, In theory the upgraded batteries should be able to accept a greater current (or at least max charge current) for a greater length of time than the prior battery bank. I once had a propane genset run rough when it was starved for fuel, due to an undersized upright propane cylinder which could not evaporate the liquid propane fast enough for the load of the genset. This caused the regulator on the genset to have awful difficultly, and usually would drop the load because it couldn't stabilize. This doesn't sound like it would be your problem, if it was running properly before, but perhaps the longer duration at higher current is creating difficulty for the LPG to evaporate enough. May be compounded if the fuel tank was recently overfilled and doesn't have as much surface area, or if it is way low and can't maintain pressure. May want to check the tank size of propane for the genset. (I'm assuming this is LPG). Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Phone: 413 883-3144 Spirit Solar www.SpiritSolar.net -----Original Message----- From: Chris Daum [mailto:chris at OasisMontana.com] Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 3:41 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems Dear people: I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16 of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and other components). He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'. He's at a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to time. They believe that the "batteries are too powerful for the 8.5 kw generator" and recommended running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3 hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and hence, use more fuel). Have you ever heard of anything like this? Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade. Thanks for your input! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com From solarwks at cybermesa.com Tue Apr 26 08:57:06 2016 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 06:57:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question In-Reply-To: <571EDD5D.5030402@sindelarsolar.com> References: <571EDD5D.5030402@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <571F65A2.1080808@cybermesa.com> Allen, I have a customer who until recently ran her SQ off of a Trace DR2412 modified sinewave inverter/charger just fine for 6 or more years. I think some folks refer to these inverters as modified square wave. Carl Hansen&Sun Elect. On 4/25/2016 9:15 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC > submersible pump from a modified square wave inverter? > I need to run a 1/2 hp 115V AC sub on a 1990-era Heart EMS 2800-12. > The customer likes his equipment so I'm not encouraging an inverter > upgrade. > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Apr 26 09:56:32 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 06:56:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question In-Reply-To: <571F65A2.1080808@cybermesa.com> References: <571EDD5D.5030402@sindelarsolar.com> <571F65A2.1080808@cybermesa.com> Message-ID: <3754BC12-9C1E-4A94-A997-0A3C5BDCAD84@starlightsolar.com> You can tell the grey-beards from younger wrenches…..A square wave is generated and modified to act like a sine wave, thus, it is a modified square wave. As I see it, in order to deceive the consumer, the term "modified sine wave" was created. Larry On Apr 26, 2016, at 5:57 AM, Carl Hansen wrote: Allen, …. I think some folks refer to these inverters as modified square wave. Carl Hansen&Sun Elect. On 4/25/2016 9:15 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC submersible pump from a modified square wave inverter?….. > Thank you, > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Apr 26 10:22:59 2016 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:22:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question In-Reply-To: <571EDD5D.5030402@sindelarsolar.com> References: <571EDD5D.5030402@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <571F79C3.2080803@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 10:52:43 2016 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 08:52:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question In-Reply-To: <571EDD5D.5030402@sindelarsolar.com> References: <571EDD5D.5030402@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allan, just to add to the testimony of others, I have several customers out there with 1990s era Trace DR inverters running SQ pumps and they seem to work fine. -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com > On Apr 25, 2016, at 21:15, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC submersible pump from a modified square wave inverter? > I need to run a 1/2 hp 115V AC sub on a 1990-era Heart EMS 2800-12. The customer likes his equipment so I'm not encouraging an inverter upgrade. > Thank you, > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 10:42:35 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 04:42:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question Message-ID: <1nbdj7ir09hgj5ptcldapy1b.1461681755811@email.android.com> You may want to check the ac voltage with a good "true RMS" meter and see what the results are, some (most) new Freq Drives, and soft start drives may have an issue with a high RMSJerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Roy Butler Date: 4/26/2016 4:22 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter/AC pump compatibility question Allan, I have several customers running the Grundfos SQE series on their modified square wave inverters. To be clear, those most recent was about 5 years ago, so perhaps there's been a design change since then. Roy Butler NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 4/25/2016 11:15 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, Has anyone powered a Grundfos SQ or SQE series soft-start AC submersible pump from a modified square wave inverter? I need to run a 1/2 hp 115V AC sub on a 1990-era Heart EMS 2800-12. The customer likes his equipment so I'm not encouraging an inverter upgrade. Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 11:07:20 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:07:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems Message-ID: ChrisA few questionsAre you drawing from both AC legs from the genny, at max of 2200 watts per leg then the genny should not have an issue but if you upsized the batteries and as stated by Mike the fuel delivery system cant keep up because the inverter charge load is higher, steady and for long duration. Can you load test the genny at 240 and see if the issue happens with out the inverter at all.  When we size a propane tank we like to see at least 75 lbs per 3 kw genny depending on air temp, bigger when colder, its all about available BTU.Jerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Mike Kocsmiersky Date: 4/26/2016 12:41 AM (GMT-10:00) To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems Chris, In theory the upgraded batteries should be able to accept a greater current (or at least max charge current) for a greater length of time than the prior battery bank.  I once had a propane genset run rough when it was starved for fuel, due to an undersized upright propane cylinder which could not evaporate the liquid propane fast enough for the load of the genset.  This caused the regulator on the genset to have awful difficultly, and usually would drop the load because it couldn't stabilize.  This doesn't sound like it would be your problem, if it was running properly before, but perhaps the longer duration at higher current is creating difficulty for the LPG to evaporate enough.  May be compounded if the fuel tank was recently overfilled and doesn't have as much surface area, or if it is way low and can't maintain pressure.  May want to check the tank size of propane for the genset.  (I'm assuming this is LPG). Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Phone: 413 883-3144 Spirit Solar www.SpiritSolar.net -----Original Message----- From: Chris Daum [mailto:chris at OasisMontana.com] Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 3:41 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems Dear people:  I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16 of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and other components).  He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'.  He's at a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to time. They believe that the "batteries are too  powerful for the 8.5 kw generator" and recommended  running it at 50 percent charge control. After 3 hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator (and hence, use more fuel).  Have you ever heard of anything like this? Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade. Thanks for your input! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 13:16:50 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:16:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charging problems In-Reply-To: <690A143C43A743648BA861E7F35295B1@OasisChris> References: <310612.71959.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <690A143C43A743648BA861E7F35295B1@OasisChris> Message-ID: Propane generator expert here - certified Generac technician. Chances are the problem lies with the fuel supply. Your inverter is working better, taking more power, putting more current into the batteries. Therefore the generator, which is well within it's rating, is taking more fuel. 99% of propane generator problems are improperly specified or installed propane or NatGas supply. Most people don't read the manual, and the requirements are always more than people realize. An 8KW propane unit will need a 3/4" line or more to develop full power. If the fuel is being starved, it will run rough. It will only happen under load. Get hold of a manometer and measure the gas pressure at the internal regulator. You should see a steady 11" WC for propane or 7" WC for NatGas. Measure under load. If the pressure drops, there's your problem. On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Chris Daum wrote: > Dear people: > > I have an off-grid customer who has, in his system, a Magnum MS4448 and 16 > of the Rolls S550 batteries, a Kohler generator (and Trimetric meter and > other components). He upgraded his batteries this past March, and since > he's installed his new batteries, the generator is running 'rough'. He's > at > a great distance from our shop so a local business helps him from time to > time. They believe that the "batteries are too powerful for the 8.5 kw > generator" and recommended running it at 50 percent charge control. After > 3 > hrs run, it seems to help but will mean more run time for his generator > (and > hence, use more fuel). Have you ever heard of anything like this? > Everything ran fund before the battery upgrade. > > Thanks for your input! > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-0830 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Apr 27 17:47:20 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:47:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] time delay relay Message-ID: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> Hello Wrenches, I need a relay with off delay timer to control a battery charger and I’m having difficulty finding the type. The sequence I need is as follows: Power or trigger on, relay closes. Power or trigger off, relay opens and starts delay timer. Power or trigger on, relay closes after timer has finished. Does anyone know what this type is called or any other help? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Apr 27 17:49:35 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:49:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] time delay relay In-Reply-To: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> Call your local electrical supply they will probably have to order but there are loads of timer relay in various scenarios available. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 3:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] time delay relay Hello Wrenches, I need a relay with off delay timer to control a battery charger and I’m having difficulty finding the type. The sequence I need is as follows: 1. Power or trigger on, relay closes. 2. Power or trigger off, relay opens and starts delay timer. 3. Power or trigger on, relay closes after timer has finished. Does anyone know what this type is called or any other help? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Apr 27 18:19:21 2016 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:19:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] time delay relay In-Reply-To: <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> Message-ID: <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 20:31:01 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:31:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: HI All, I’ve got a problem that outback tech hasn’t been able to figure out. off grid system mate 3 quad stacked VFX 3648 The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator he doesn’t want the chargers to operate. OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. Outback says that shouldn’t be happening, but it is. Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? Thanks jay peltz power From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 21:12:37 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:12:37 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] time delay relay In-Reply-To: References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I use a delay relay alot for water pumps, lights ect. Brand is Altronics model 6030 check them out you may find a better solution at altronics, we build around this alot easy to do. Jerry On Apr 27, 2016 11:47 AM, "Starlight Solar Power Systems" < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: Hello Wrenches, I need a relay with off delay timer to control a battery charger and I’m having difficulty finding the type. The sequence I need is as follows: 1. Power or trigger on, relay closes. 2. Power or trigger off, relay opens and starts delay timer. 3. Power or trigger on, relay closes after timer has finished. Does anyone know what this type is called or any other help? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Apr 27 23:34:17 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:34:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <1acacbf2-b02c-a332-65f1-b050c78afcac@psln.com> Do you have the last firmware for the mate3?...002-019-000 Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 4/27/2016 5:31 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a problem that outback tech hasn’t been able to figure out. > > off grid system > mate 3 > quad stacked VFX 3648 > > The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. > > The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator he doesn’t want the chargers to operate. > OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. > > But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. > > Outback says that shouldn’t be happening, but it is. > > Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Apr 28 10:26:02 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:26:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] time delay relay In-Reply-To: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <20160428142609.507C4284058@homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com> A simple solution that I've used is to utilize an off-the-shelf lighting timer. You can get an inexpensive unit that plugs into an outlet. Take the 120 V AC output and use it to trigger a 120 volt coil relay. Depending on your signal voltage, this may work. You can set delays by using the adjustments on the timer. At 05:47 PM 4/27/2016, you wrote: >Hello Wrenches, > >I need a relay with off delay timer to control a >battery charger and I’m having difficulty >finding the type. The sequence I need is as follows: > * Power or trigger on, relay closes. > * Power or trigger off, relay opens and starts delay timer. > * Power or trigger on, relay closes after timer has finished. > >Does anyone know what this type is called or any other help? > >Thank you, > >Larry Crutcher >Starlight Solar Power Systems > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lena at nunatakenergy.com Thu Apr 28 12:19:09 2016 From: lena at nunatakenergy.com (Lena Wilensky) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:19:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? Message-ID: I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? Any suggestions appreciated! Lena Wilensky www.nunatakenergy.com 970-642-5554 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Apr 28 12:38:18 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:38:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lena, You might want to give these folks a call, they may have a unit that could work for you. https://www.gillettegenerators.com/products/1/SPS-120# We are currently installing a 40 kW propane generator that we had Gillette custom build for us for off-grid. Propane powered block heater, minimal phantom loads, etc. Won't know until this winter how well it works. They were good to work with, and even when the client changed fuel from CNG to LPG moments before the crated unit was ready to ship, they were able to make changes. That all being said, I'd rather work with diesels for off-grid. Engine will cost 2x to buy but 1/2 to run. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lena Wilensky Sent: April-28-16 9:19 AM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? Any suggestions appreciated! Lena Wilensky [http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/t/52fd4d40e4b0c0844a0eb2de/1393270590052/?format=1500w] www.nunatakenergy.com 970-642-5554 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 [http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/53067822e4b0822d0c7053a4/53067827e4b0ec57163c45c5/1392932911551/NABCEP%20PV%20Seal%20Lena.jpg?format=300w] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Apr 28 13:17:51 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:17:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana 12.5 kW w Subaru Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky > wrote: I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? Any suggestions appreciated! Lena Wilensky [http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/t/52fd4d40e4b0c0844a0eb2de/1393270590052/?format=1500w] www.nunatakenergy.com 970-642-5554 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 [http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/53067822e4b0822d0c7053a4/53067827e4b0ec57163c45c5/1392932911551/NABCEP%20PV%20Seal%20Lena.jpg?format=300w] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 28 13:28:51 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 11:28:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57224853.7000001@solarray.com> FYI, generally we haven't had cold start issues with propane units, as long as the pipe is sized properly ( as mentioned in another recent post) and the starter battery is kept fully charged. This is based on about 20 years experience in the Rockies with temps below 0, but not 40 below. We don't use block heaters, carb heaters, etc. We currently have been using Generac Ecogen, but not that happy with them. Cheap air cooled motor, way too many computer gizmos, no on board charging (must have AC power or PV to charge the starting battery) We even had to call customer service to get an authorization code to set up remote start. This is off grid with no internet or cell service; ridiculous. I hope Generac reps are lurking here, because these are really not much better than the crop of stand by generators. IMO no off grid generator should have a phantom load, or require cell service to commission. What happened to the old water cooled Kohlers? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2016 11:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana > 12.5 kW w Subaru > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky > wrote: > >> I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid >> propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from >> 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. >> >> We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at >> altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: >> >> First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for >> off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty >> is short (1 year). >> >> Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the >> "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold >> weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to >> actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a >> thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the >> mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady >> 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the >> day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like >> we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all >> pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. >> >> The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to >> EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so >> they are held to tougher emissions standards. >> >> Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing >> these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for >> off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? >> Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and >> running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the >> heating issue? >> >> Any suggestions appreciated! >> >> Lena Wilensky >> >> www.nunatakenergy.com >> 970-642-5554 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer: >> Cert. #R02907-17 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 28 11:56:50 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 09:56:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV module spec sheet Message-ID: <006801d1a166$9429f990$bc7decb0$@com> Hey All, I have an out of state client with Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV modules and am looking for a spec sheet. I did a search on the internet and did not come up with a hit. Does anyone have a copy of this spec sheet or a suggestion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 28 12:42:13 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:42:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e501d1a16c$eb5a2b30$c20e8190$@com> For the heater on the intake pipe issue we only run the heater off the generator output to keep the intake breather from icing up while running. You may need to a bit of rewiring. Have you looked at SW products [They bought Hardy Diesel] T - 480 625 5195? They still have 12KW water cooled with Ford engines. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lena Wilensky Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 10:19 AM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? Any suggestions appreciated! Lena Wilensky www.nunatakenergy.com 970-642-5554 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 11:49:19 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:49:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta In-Reply-To: <20160428142609.507C4284058@homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <20160428142609.507C4284058@homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <6247DA49-55A0-4EBA-9984-261A2CE35A31@gmail.com> HI All, I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial water pumping site with 480v single phase delta configuration. PV will be in the 10kw range. Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? thanks jay peltz power From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 28 15:07:18 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:07:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV module spec sheet In-Reply-To: <006801d1a166$9429f990$bc7decb0$@com> References: <006801d1a166$9429f990$bc7decb0$@com> Message-ID: <57225F66.9040908@solarray.com> This should be very close. Its for the Siemens SP 75. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2016 9:56 AM, Dana wrote: > > Hey All, > > I have an out of state client with Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV modules and > am looking for a spec sheet. I did a search on the internet and did > not come up with a hit. > > Does anyone have a copy of this spec sheet or a suggestion? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - *dana at solarwork.com* - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - *208.721.7003* > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sp75.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 813765 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 28 15:25:45 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:25:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV module spec sheet In-Reply-To: <006801d1a166$9429f990$bc7decb0$@com> References: <006801d1a166$9429f990$bc7decb0$@com> Message-ID: Dana: Best I can do is a photo of a module data placard, attached. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dana *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2016 8:57 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV module spec sheet Hey All, I have an out of state client with Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV modules and am looking for a spec sheet. I did a search on the internet and did not come up with a hit. Does anyone have a copy of this spec sheet or a suggestion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - *dana at solarwork.com * - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - *208.721.7003* "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PRO4JF M75.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2079571 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 14:52:30 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 14:52:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta In-Reply-To: <6247DA49-55A0-4EBA-9984-261A2CE35A31@gmail.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <20160428142609.507C4284058@homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com> <6247DA49-55A0-4EBA-9984-261A2CE35A31@gmail.com> Message-ID: You will use a 240:480v step up transformer On Apr 28, 2016 14:17, "jay" wrote: > HI All, > > I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial > water pumping site with > > 480v single phase delta configuration. > > PV will be in the 10kw range. > > Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? > > > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 18:10:52 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:10:52 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta Message-ID: What about an SMA Tri Power inverter Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Chris Mason
Date:04/28/2016 8:52 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta
You will use a 240:480v step up transformer On Apr 28, 2016 14:17, "jay" wrote: HI All, I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial water pumping site with 480v single phase delta configuration. PV will be in the 10kw range. Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Apr 28 18:11:25 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:11:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a *lockable* AC disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little NEC background info: 2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the following features: (1) Located where readily accessible (2) Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with live parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in the event of a power-supply failure (3) Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position (4) Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the disconnect equipment might be energized. *Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment, including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from both directions. See 240.40.* (5) Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit (6) Capable of being locked in the open (off) position NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means: Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock installed. Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with 705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one shown for Square D: http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old types of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is requiring that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the time of our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 19:00:31 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:00:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? Message-ID: Have you looked at Cummins,  we have have great luck and no programming issues but battery charging needs to be added foroff grid Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Ray Walters
Date:04/28/2016 7:28 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update?
FYI, generally we haven't had cold start issues with propane units, as long as the pipe is sized properly ( as mentioned in another recent post) and the starter battery is kept fully charged. This is based on about 20 years experience in the Rockies with temps below 0, but not 40 below. We don't use block heaters, carb heaters, etc. We currently have been using Generac Ecogen, but not that happy with them. Cheap air cooled motor, way too many computer gizmos, no on board charging (must have AC power or PV to charge the starting battery) We even had to call customer service to get an authorization code to set up remote start. This is off grid with no internet or cell service; ridiculous. I hope Generac reps are lurking here, because these are really not much better than the crop of stand by generators. IMO no off grid generator should have a phantom load, or require cell service to commission. What happened to the old water cooled Kohlers? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2016 11:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana 12.5 kW w Subaru Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? Any suggestions appreciated! Lena Wilensky www.nunatakenergy.com 970-642-5554 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 28 19:15:02 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:15:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> I haven't seen anything from them that looks like what we're after We'd be looking for 10kW to 15 kW water cooled 1800 rpm. Propane fired. Everyone makes models in the 30kW + range that fit the bill, but most off grid systems don't need anything that big. Do you have a model that I should be looking at? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2016 5:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Have you looked at Cummins, we have have great luck and no > programming issues but battery charging needs to be added foroff grid > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Ray Walters > Date:04/28/2016 7:28 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? > > FYI, generally we haven't had cold start issues with propane units, > as long as the pipe is sized properly ( as mentioned in another recent > post) and the starter battery is kept fully charged. > This is based on about 20 years experience in the Rockies with temps > below 0, but not 40 below. We don't use block heaters, carb heaters, etc. > We currently have been using Generac Ecogen, but not that happy with > them. Cheap air cooled motor, way too many computer gizmos, no on > board charging (must have AC power or PV to charge the starting > battery) We even had to call customer service to get an authorization > code to set up remote start. This is off grid with no internet or > cell service; ridiculous. I hope Generac reps are lurking here, > because these are really not much better than the crop of stand by > generators. > IMO no off grid generator should have a phantom load, or require > cell service to commission. What happened to the old water cooled > Kohlers? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 4/28/2016 11:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana >> 12.5 kW w Subaru >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> >> On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky >> wrote: >> >>> I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for >>> off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found >>> were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. >>> >>> We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at >>> altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: >>> >>> First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for >>> off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty >>> is short (1 year). >>> >>> Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the >>> "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold >>> weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to >>> actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a >>> thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the >>> mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady >>> 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the >>> day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like >>> we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all >>> pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. >>> >>> The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to >>> EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, >>> so they are held to tougher emissions standards. >>> >>> Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing >>> these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for >>> off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? >>> Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and >>> running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the >>> heating issue? >>> >>> Any suggestions appreciated! >>> >>> Lena Wilensky >>> >>> www.nunatakenergy.com >>> 970-642-5554 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer: >>> Cert. #R02907-17 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 20:59:46 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:59:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <586DDDD5-2CC1-433A-8FD9-154409D5A80D@gmail.com> I have a customer with a Perkins from Hardy Diesel in an insulated building with a wall mount propane heater Constant propane use most of the winter but it keeps a small building warm enuf that starting the generator is not a problem it happens to be a diesel That made more sense for his installation then block heaters and all the rest of that Plus the inverters and the battery bank are in a nice comfortable room This one happens to be a 16 kW with a Perkins power plant Bob > On Apr 28, 2016, at 7:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > > Have you looked at Cummins, we have have great luck and no programming issues but battery charging needs to be added foroff grid > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Ray Walters > Date:04/28/2016 7:28 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? > > FYI, generally we haven't had cold start issues with propane units, as long as the pipe is sized properly ( as mentioned in another recent post) and the starter battery is kept fully charged. > This is based on about 20 years experience in the Rockies with temps below 0, but not 40 below. We don't use block heaters, carb heaters, etc. > We currently have been using Generac Ecogen, but not that happy with them. Cheap air cooled motor, way too many computer gizmos, no on board charging (must have AC power or PV to charge the starting battery) We even had to call customer service to get an authorization code to set up remote start. This is off grid with no internet or cell service; ridiculous. I hope Generac reps are lurking here, because these are really not much better than the crop of stand by generators. > IMO no off grid generator should have a phantom load, or require cell service to commission. What happened to the old water cooled Kohlers? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 4/28/2016 11:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana >> 12.5 kW w Subaru >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> >> On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: >> >>> I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. >>> >>> We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: >>> >>> First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). >>> >>> Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. >>> >>> The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. >>> >>> Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? >>> >>> Any suggestions appreciated! >>> >>> Lena Wilensky >>> >>> www.nunatakenergy.com >>> 970-642-5554 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer: >>> Cert. #R02907-17 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 28 19:19:10 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Solar work) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:19:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> Message-ID: <2CCF71CC-250D-4D36-8784-C5FECF70C9CC@solarwork.com> Onan smallest is 20kw for 1800 rpm & water cool Dana Orzel 2087217003 "Follow the flow of your internal river, acknowledging the put-ons & put-outs." On Apr 28, 2016, at 5:15 PM, Ray Walters wrote: I haven't seen anything from them that looks like what we're after We'd be looking for 10kW to 15 kW water cooled 1800 rpm. Propane fired. Everyone makes models in the 30kW + range that fit the bill, but most off grid systems don't need anything that big. Do you have a model that I should be looking at? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 > On 4/28/2016 5:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Have you looked at Cummins, we have have great luck and no programming issues but battery charging needs to be added foroff grid > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Ray Walters > Date:04/28/2016 7:28 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? > > FYI, generally we haven't had cold start issues with propane units, as long as the pipe is sized properly ( as mentioned in another recent post) and the starter battery is kept fully charged. > This is based on about 20 years experience in the Rockies with temps below 0, but not 40 below. We don't use block heaters, carb heaters, etc. > We currently have been using Generac Ecogen, but not that happy with them. Cheap air cooled motor, way too many computer gizmos, no on board charging (must have AC power or PV to charge the starting battery) We even had to call customer service to get an authorization code to set up remote start. This is off grid with no internet or cell service; ridiculous. I hope Generac reps are lurking here, because these are really not much better than the crop of stand by generators. > IMO no off grid generator should have a phantom load, or require cell service to commission. What happened to the old water cooled Kohlers? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 4/28/2016 11:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana >> 12.5 kW w Subaru >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> >> On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: >> >>> I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. >>> >>> We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: >>> >>> First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). >>> >>> Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. >>> >>> The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. >>> >>> Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? >>> >>> Any suggestions appreciated! >>> >>> Lena Wilensky >>> >>> www.nunatakenergy.com >>> 970-642-5554 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer: >>> Cert. #R02907-17 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 19:27:58 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:27:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Tripower is 3 phase On Apr 28, 2016 18:11, "jerrysgarage01" wrote: > What about an SMA Tri Power inverter > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chris Mason > Date:04/28/2016 8:52 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta > > You will use a 240:480v step up transformer > On Apr 28, 2016 14:17, "jay" wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial >> water pumping site with >> >> 480v single phase delta configuration. >> >> PV will be in the 10kw range. >> >> Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 28 18:58:47 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:58:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57bbe2c876926888f2fc015c0eec2ecb@mail.gmail.com> August: You might make the case that a standard load center is externally operable (external as in outside the dead-front) and is lockable (with a lockout kit). Sounds like another renegade building official. Good luck. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *August Goers *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2016 3:11 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked Hi Wrenches, We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a *lockable* AC disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little NEC background info: 2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the following features: Located where readily accessible Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with live parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in the event of a power-supply failure Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the disconnect equipment might be energized. *Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment, including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from both directions. See 240.40.* Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit Capable of being locked in the open (off) position NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means: Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock installed. Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with 705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one shown for Square D: http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old types of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is requiring that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the time of our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 18:14:19 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:14:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30C8F07D-0BD2-45C0-9E90-41C339DABECA@gmail.com> Great inverter but this is single phase. Jay Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:10 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > > What about an SMA Tri Power inverter > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chris Mason > Date:04/28/2016 8:52 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta > > You will use a 240:480v step up transformer > >> On Apr 28, 2016 14:17, "jay" wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial water pumping site with >> >> 480v single phase delta configuration. >> >> PV will be in the 10kw range. >> >> Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 18:58:07 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:58:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35E5F6FA-449E-4995-839F-B18D65FA2C5C@gmail.com> HI August, I guess my question is. Are they asking for a lockout AC disconnect on a AC circuit IE from the AC panel? or are they asking for a lockout from the inverter AC at the inverter? thanks jay peltz power > On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:11 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a lockable AC disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little NEC background info: > > 2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device > The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the following features: > (1) Located where readily accessible > (2) Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with live parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in the event of a power-supply failure > (3) Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position > (4) Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the disconnect equipment might be energized. > Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment, including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from both directions. See 240.40. > (5) Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit > (6) Capable of being locked in the open (off) position > > NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means: > Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock installed. > > Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with 705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one shown for Square D: > > http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf > > Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old types of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is requiring that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the time of our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues? > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 21:58:44 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:58:44 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta In-Reply-To: References: <30C8F07D-0BD2-45C0-9E90-41C339DABECA@gmail.com> Message-ID: I cant say l have seen a single phase delta, open delta, use two of the three legs but not on pumps, can someone explain, what am l missing as the term delta is three points Jerry On Apr 28, 2016 3:50 PM, "Jay" wrote: Great inverter but this is single phase. Jay Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:10 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: What about an SMA Tri Power inverter Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Mason Date:04/28/2016 8:52 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta You will use a 240:480v step up transformer On Apr 28, 2016 14:17, "jay" wrote: > HI All, > > I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial > water pumping site with > > 480v single phase delta configuration. > > PV will be in the 10kw range. > > Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? > > > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 22:22:34 2016 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 21:22:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does the generator need to feed an inverter /charger input? In other words, does it need to provide AC/60hz? If it can be a DC genset (which is usually easier on the system) check out Polar Power. http://www.polarpower.com/ Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Have you looked at Cummins, we have have great luck and no programming > issues but battery charging needs to be added foroff grid > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Ray Walters > Date:04/28/2016 7:28 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? > > FYI, generally we haven't had cold start issues with propane units, as > long as the pipe is sized properly ( as mentioned in another recent post) > and the starter battery is kept fully charged. > This is based on about 20 years experience in the Rockies with temps below > 0, but not 40 below. We don't use block heaters, carb heaters, etc. > We currently have been using Generac Ecogen, but not that happy with them. > Cheap air cooled motor, way too many computer gizmos, no on board charging > (must have AC power or PV to charge the starting battery) We even had to > call customer service to get an authorization code to set up remote start. > This is off grid with no internet or cell service; ridiculous. I hope > Generac reps are lurking here, because these are really not much better > than the crop of stand by generators. > IMO no off grid generator should have a phantom load, or require cell > service to commission. What happened to the old water cooled Kohlers? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 4/28/2016 11:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana > 12.5 kW w Subaru > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky < > lena at nunatakenergy.com> wrote: > > I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid > propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 > yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. > > We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and > we run into 2 main problem areas: > > First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid > use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 > year). > > Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the > "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather > kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, > but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on > all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the > Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do > battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual > switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore > since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset > computer. > > The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA > considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are > held to tougher emissions standards. > > Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these > days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES > from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going > back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how > are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? > > Any suggestions appreciated! > > Lena Wilensky > > www.nunatakenergy.com > 970-642-5554 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer: > Cert. #R02907-17 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 22:59:00 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 21:59:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked In-Reply-To: <35E5F6FA-449E-4995-839F-B18D65FA2C5C@gmail.com> References: <35E5F6FA-449E-4995-839F-B18D65FA2C5C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <356F026F-CF4C-4C00-A0AE-971210E3CBE3@gmail.com> So an AC disconnect in the inverter output between the inverter and panel or utility disconnect if required doesn't work for him or her? The locking provision is always in place on a standard AC disconnect. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 28, 2016, at 5:58 PM, jay wrote: > > HI August, > > I guess my question is. > Are they asking for a lockout AC disconnect on a AC circuit IE from the AC panel? > or > are they asking for a lockout from the inverter AC at the inverter? > > thanks > jay > > peltz power > > >> On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:11 PM, August Goers wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a lockable AC disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little NEC background info: >> >> 2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device >> The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the following features: >> (1) Located where readily accessible >> (2) Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with live parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in the event of a power-supply failure >> (3) Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position >> (4) Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the disconnect equipment might be energized. >> Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment, including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from both directions. See 240.40. >> (5) Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit >> (6) Capable of being locked in the open (off) position >> >> NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means: >> Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock installed. >> >> Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with 705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one shown for Square D: >> >> http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf >> >> Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old types of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is requiring that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the time of our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues? >> >> Best, >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sales at jordansolar.net Thu Apr 28 22:59:19 2016 From: sales at jordansolar.net (Jordan Solar Sales) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:59:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 9, Issue 129 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For off-grid generators I have found that the Onan propane RV units like model #HGJAB are a great unit. (Onan is owned by Cummins, same units as Cummins Commercial series I believe) These are only 6500 watt units but they are low RPM, very quiet, fuel efficient, and start great in cold temps. (the 5500 watt model is the same unit but runs lower rpm=lower power) they do need an external battery and charger (and battery cables...) and you have to build a stand to set them on. We sometimes have to "oversize" generators just so the customer can run large loads while the batteries are charging, which leads to the need for the 10kw (or bigger) generators. I have not found a good option for these either. In my opinion, these big gennys are very inefficient at battery charging, cost a lot, are hard to start, difficult to service/replace, and come with all the electronics issues mentioned earlier. I find if I can educate the customer to wait to run big loads until after the initial bulk charge cycle they can often get by on the 6500 watt unit and they are happier in the long run. If I can't win on this, I try to get them buy their own genny so it is their problem! I wish we had a decent AC coupled generator option! Travis Jordan travis at jordansolar.net travis at mtsolar.us -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 29 07:54:45 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 05:54:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> Message-ID: <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> Ditto here, if there is a 10-15KW, 1800 RPM water cooled generator out there, please share. The EPA requirements & definitions have killed every source I have had. An air cooled 3600 RPM generator is good for about 2000+/- hours before rebuild or replacement. Add to that the noise levels @ 3600 RPM, yuck. There is a real biz opportunity here for a company to fill this niche. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? I haven't seen anything from them that looks like what we're after We'd be looking for 10kW to 15 kW water cooled 1800 rpm. Propane fired. Everyone makes models in the 30kW + range that fit the bill, but most off grid systems don't need anything that big. Do you have a model that I should be looking at? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2016 5:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: Have you looked at Cummins, we have have great luck and no programming issues but battery charging needs to be added foroff grid Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy ST III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Ray Walters Date:04/28/2016 7:28 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? FYI, generally we haven't had cold start issues with propane units, as long as the pipe is sized properly ( as mentioned in another recent post) and the starter battery is kept fully charged. This is based on about 20 years experience in the Rockies with temps below 0, but not 40 below. We don't use block heaters, carb heaters, etc. We currently have been using Generac Ecogen, but not that happy with them. Cheap air cooled motor, way too many computer gizmos, no on board charging (must have AC power or PV to charge the starting battery) We even had to call customer service to get an authorization code to set up remote start. This is off grid with no internet or cell service; ridiculous. I hope Generac reps are lurking here, because these are really not much better than the crop of stand by generators. IMO no off grid generator should have a phantom load, or require cell service to commission. What happened to the old water cooled Kohlers? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2016 11:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana 12.5 kW w Subaru Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? Any suggestions appreciated! Lena Wilensky www.nunatakenergy.com 970-642-5554 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Apr 29 09:41:18 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 06:41:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked In-Reply-To: <356F026F-CF4C-4C00-A0AE-971210E3CBE3@gmail.com> References: <35E5F6FA-449E-4995-839F-B18D65FA2C5C@gmail.com> <356F026F-CF4C-4C00-A0AE-971210E3CBE3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jesse, A regular visible blade lockable AC disconnect will satisfy our plan checker’s concern. However, the utility does not require an AC disconnect in our area for most residential applications so oftentimes we just use the beaker as our disconnect. If we just use a back-fed breaker, he wants us to install a handle padlock attachment at time of inspection and keep it there. I can see where he is coming from if you read the code sections I listed below, I’m just trying to figure out if this is a valid interpretation and if so how we’re going to comply. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Solar *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2016 7:59 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked So an AC disconnect in the inverter output between the inverter and panel or utility disconnect if required doesn't work for him or her? The locking provision is always in place on a standard AC disconnect. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2016, at 5:58 PM, jay wrote: HI August, I guess my question is. Are they asking for a lockout AC disconnect on a AC circuit IE from the AC panel? or are they asking for a lockout from the inverter AC at the inverter? thanks jay peltz power On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:11 PM, August Goers wrote: Hi Wrenches, We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a *lockable* AC disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little NEC background info: 2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the following features: (1) Located where readily accessible (2) Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with live parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in the event of a power-supply failure (3) Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position (4) Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the disconnect equipment might be energized. *Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment, including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from both directions. See 240.40.* (5) Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit (6) Capable of being locked in the open (off) position NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means: Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock installed. Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with 705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one shown for Square D: http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old types of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is requiring that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the time of our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues? Best, August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Fri Apr 29 09:49:09 2016 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:49:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The newer Tripower STP30000 can be configured for delta, but the 12000-24000 cannot. A step up transformer sounds like the way to go. Best, Garrison Garrison Riegel Solar Service Inc From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jerrysgarage01 Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta What about an SMA Tri Power inverter Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Mason Date:04/28/2016 8:52 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta You will use a 240:480v step up transformer On Apr 28, 2016 14:17, "jay" > wrote: HI All, I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial water pumping site with 480v single phase delta configuration. PV will be in the 10kw range. Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Apr 29 09:55:22 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 06:55:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> Message-ID: <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers. I'm sure he had a /great/ reason for doing so. So now I have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at problem solving but I'm accepting ideas. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 09:56:18 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 06:56:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> Message-ID: Panels in landscape mode with rails running peak to gutter? On Apr 29, 2016 6:54 AM, "frenergy" wrote: > Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a > "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 > stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 > feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at > the stringers. I'm sure he had a *great* reason for doing so. So now I > have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" > the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on > air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with > possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at problem > solving but I'm accepting ideas. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 09:59:41 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 09:59:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> Message-ID: Check out the hardy Diesel15 kW Perkins It's available and integrated fuel tank single or double walland a whole bunch of other goodies including autostart comes along with it Like I mentioned in the last message the The folks I know they're in real cool places put them in a small insulated building with a small propane wall heater Starting doesn't seem to be an issue and the belief is that it is cheaper than running an electric heater Later Bob > On Apr 29, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Dana wrote: > > Ditto here, if there is a 10-15KW, 1800 RPM water cooled generator out there, please share. The EPA requirements & definitions have killed every source I have had. An air cooled 3600 RPM generator is good for about 2000+/- hours before rebuild or replacement. Add to that the noise levels @ 3600 RPM, yuck. > There is a real biz opportunity here for a company to fill this niche. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:15 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? > > I haven't seen anything from them that looks like what we're after We'd be looking for 10kW to 15 kW water cooled 1800 rpm. Propane fired. > Everyone makes models in the 30kW + range that fit the bill, but most off grid systems don't need anything that big. > Do you have a model that I should be looking at? > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 4/28/2016 5:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Have you looked at Cummins, we have have great luck and no programming issues but battery charging needs to be added foroff grid > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Ray Walters > Date:04/28/2016 7:28 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? > > FYI, generally we haven't had cold start issues with propane units, as long as the pipe is sized properly ( as mentioned in another recent post) and the starter battery is kept fully charged. > This is based on about 20 years experience in the Rockies with temps below 0, but not 40 below. We don't use block heaters, carb heaters, etc. > We currently have been using Generac Ecogen, but not that happy with them. Cheap air cooled motor, way too many computer gizmos, no on board charging (must have AC power or PV to charge the starting battery) We even had to call customer service to get an authorization code to set up remote start. This is off grid with no internet or cell service; ridiculous. I hope Generac reps are lurking here, because these are really not much better than the crop of stand by generators. > IMO no off grid generator should have a phantom load, or require cell service to commission. What happened to the old water cooled Kohlers? > > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 4/28/2016 11:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana > 12.5 kW w Subaru > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: > > I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. > > We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: > > First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). > > Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. > > The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. > > Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? > > Any suggestions appreciated! > > Lena Wilensky > > www.nunatakenergy.com > 970-642-5554 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer: > Cert. #R02907-17 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Apr 29 10:24:08 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:24:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 9, Issue 129 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160429142417.6AE3910750@che.dreamhost.com> Hi Travis, Can you recommend a good supplier for the Onan RV #HGJAB units? Thanks, Drake At 10:59 PM 4/28/2016, Jordan Solar Sales wrote: >For off-grid generators I have found that the Onan propane RV units >like model #HGJAB are a great unit. (Onan is owned by Cummins, same >units as Cummins Commercial series I believe) These are only 6500 >watt units but they are low RPM, very quiet, fuel efficient, and >start great in cold temps. (the 5500 watt model is the same unit but >runs lower rpm=lower power) they do need an external battery and >charger (and battery cables...) and you have to build a stand to set them on. > >We sometimes have to "oversize" generators just so the customer can >run large loads while the batteries are charging, which leads to the >need for the 10kw (or bigger) generators. I have not found a good >option for these either. In my opinion, these big gennys are very >inefficient at battery charging, cost a lot, are hard to start, >difficult to service/replace, and come with all the electronics >issues mentioned earlier. I find if I can educate the customer to >wait to run big loads until after the initial bulk charge cycle they >can often get by on the 6500 watt unit and they are happier in the >long run. If I can't win on this, I try to get them buy their own >genny so it is their problem! > >I wish we had a decent AC coupled generator option! > >Travis Jordan >travis at jordansolar.net >travis at mtsolar.us >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 29 10:13:42 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:13:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> Message-ID: <029d01d1a221$5644b960$02ce2c20$@com> Hardy has been purchased by SW Prod.; they are in of PHX, AZ. Great unit I agree, but 1 - not everyone is happy or comfortable with owning a diesel & 2 - at elevation here in CO with –F° temps it is not always a good choice without a warmed shed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of RE Ellison Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 8:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? Check out the hardy Diesel15 kW Perkins It's available and integrated fuel tank single or double walland a whole bunch of other goodies including autostart comes along with it Like I mentioned in the last message the The folks I know they're in real cool places put them in a small insulated building with a small propane wall heater Starting doesn't seem to be an issue and the belief is that it is cheaper than running an electric heater Later Bob On Apr 29, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Dana wrote: Ditto here, if there is a 10-15KW, 1800 RPM water cooled generator out there, please share. The EPA requirements & definitions have killed every source I have had. An air cooled 3600 RPM generator is good for about 2000+/- hours before rebuild or replacement. Add to that the noise levels @ 3600 RPM, yuck. There is a real biz opportunity here for a company to fill this niche. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? I haven't seen anything from them that looks like what we're after We'd be looking for 10kW to 15 kW water cooled 1800 rpm. Propane fired. Everyone makes models in the 30kW + range that fit the bill, but most off grid systems don't need anything that big. Do you have a model that I should be looking at? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2016 5:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: Have you looked at Cummins, we have have great luck and no programming issues but battery charging needs to be added foroff grid Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Ray Walters Date:04/28/2016 7:28 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? FYI, generally we haven't had cold start issues with propane units, as long as the pipe is sized properly ( as mentioned in another recent post) and the starter battery is kept fully charged. This is based on about 20 years experience in the Rockies with temps below 0, but not 40 below. We don't use block heaters, carb heaters, etc. We currently have been using Generac Ecogen, but not that happy with them. Cheap air cooled motor, way too many computer gizmos, no on board charging (must have AC power or PV to charge the starting battery) We even had to call customer service to get an authorization code to set up remote start. This is off grid with no internet or cell service; ridiculous. I hope Generac reps are lurking here, because these are really not much better than the crop of stand by generators. IMO no off grid generator should have a phantom load, or require cell service to commission. What happened to the old water cooled Kohlers? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2016 11:17 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Check out Gillette generators. Made in Indiana 12.5 kW w Subaru Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? Any suggestions appreciated! Lena Wilensky www.nunatakenergy.com 970-642-5554 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Apr 29 11:09:57 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:09:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> Message-ID: <2e5ef1cfa964d4f6f49528d08e6665ed@mail.gmail.com> Hi Bill, It sounds like you’re talking about a purlin type setup – 4’ sounds a little far apart but I guess that’s what you have to deal with. If you have a corrugated metal roof, we’ve used S-5 CurruBrackets screwed through the metal and into the purlins and then either run the solar rail up and down the roof or install a sub-rack system (with strut or angle aluminum) perpendicular to your solar rail. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 6:55 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers. I'm sure he had a *great* reason for doing so. So now I have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at problem solving but I'm accepting ideas. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Fri Apr 29 11:59:59 2016 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:59:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen problem Message-ID: <021d01d1a230$2f045cc0$8d0d1640$@com> Wrenches, I service an off grid home that has an EcoGen 6kW Model 58181 LP gen with a Serial Number of 8301854. It has 1,175 hrs on it during 2-1/2 years of service. . It appears that the crankcase is filling with excessive amounts of oil. . There was a Generac Service Bulletin in July of 2013 which predates this generators Serial Number. This bulletin alerted the possibility of excessive oil in the crankcase due to "incorrect routing of the pulse pump hoses". . From the pictures on the service bulletin (and with the SN being higher) it looks like the generator in question has properly routed hoses. See photo attached if you are familiar with this problem. . There is an extra oil reservoir on these units. The engine takes 1.7 quarts and the reservoir takes 4.2 Quarts. . I last changed the oil (and properly filled both engine and reservoir) at 1,124 hours . Now at 1,175 hrs the generator runs very roughly and blows lots of oily smelling blue/grey smoke. Most of the oil is gone from the reservoir so it's pretty obvious that the oil has flooded into the crankcase. . If the Pulse Pump hoses are routed correctly and I'd say they are since the SN is later than the recognized problem AND the fact this generator ran great for over 1,100 hours then maybe is the pulse pump itself is bad? . I wanted to run this by this list before talking to Generac because I know there are a number of wrenches whom have experience with the EcoGen. . Can I simply just drain the oil and only refill the 1.7 Qts in the engine and run the unit? Thanks for your time, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Generac ECO Gen 5818 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 157517 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 29 12:19:31 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 09:19:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV module spec sheet In-Reply-To: References: <006801d1a166$9429f990$bc7decb0$@com> Message-ID: <019b01d1a232$e9f05000$bdd0f000$@sbcglobal.net> Dana, Reaching back into my brain archives, having done a few projects with these modules, I know that many, if not all, of these modules were rated for a maximum system voltage of 48-volts. They can’t be used on higher voltage PV arrays. This was a budget version of their standard product. The picture from William has the basic specs. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 12:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV module spec sheet Dana: Best I can do is a photo of a module data placard, attached. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 8:57 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV module spec sheet Hey All, I have an out of state client with Siemens P4JF 75 watt PV modules and am looking for a spec sheet. I did a search on the internet and did not come up with a hit. Does anyone have a copy of this spec sheet or a suggestion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 11:00:12 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:00:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> Message-ID: <188A806C-1CA0-4A48-B0C6-B946024D1E1F@gmail.com> Hi Bill, What about installing unistrut to the roof on those attachment points, then installing the racking to the unistrut? jay peltz power > On Apr 29, 2016, at 6:55 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers. I'm sure he had a great reason for doing so. So now I have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at problem solving but I'm accepting ideas. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 11:03:26 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:03:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta In-Reply-To: References: <30C8F07D-0BD2-45C0-9E90-41C339DABECA@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Jerry and all, I’m sorry if I confused the issue. I haven’t seen this, I’m doing the research for a friend. It has been measured at numbers provided. 480 line to line, 240v line to neutral, 2 hots wires, not 3. The client has been told by 3 different installers that its impossible system to do. And as the experts here have provided, thats just not true. Thanks for the input. jay > On Apr 28, 2016, at 6:58 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I cant say l have seen a single phase delta, open delta, use two of the three legs but not on pumps, can someone explain, what am l missing as the term delta is three points > Jerry > > On Apr 28, 2016 3:50 PM, "Jay" > wrote: > Great inverter but this is single phase. > Jay > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:10 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > >> What about an SMA Tri Power inverter >> Jerry >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Chris Mason >> Date:04/28/2016 8:52 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta >> >> You will use a 240:480v step up transformer >> >> On Apr 28, 2016 14:17, "jay" > wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial water pumping site with >> >> 480v single phase delta configuration. >> >> PV will be in the 10kw range. >> >> Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gordon.woodcock at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 12:56:31 2016 From: gordon.woodcock at gmail.com (Gordon Woodcock) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:56:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Message-ID: Or if you have to be in portrait you can run strut from peak to gutter and then add your rails to that. A little cumbersome and more material costs, so if you can get away with landscape it's definitely better. Thanks, Gordon ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 06:55:22 -0700 > From: frenergy > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing > Message-ID: <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6 at psln.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" > > Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a > "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran > 1X6 stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about > every 4 feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing > screws are at the stringers. I'm sure he had a /great/ reason for doing > so. So now I have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can > feel how "soft" the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are > walking on air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations > don't jive with possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually > pretty good at problem solving but I'm accepting ideas. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160429/7a62a058/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 06:56:18 -0700 > From: Kirpal Khalsa > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing > Message-ID: > Q at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Panels in landscape mode with rails running peak to gutter? > On Apr 29, 2016 6:54 AM, "frenergy" wrote: > > > Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a > > "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 > > stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 > > feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are > at > > the stringers. I'm sure he had a *great* reason for doing so. So now I > > have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how > "soft" > > the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on > > air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with > > possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at > problem > > solving but I'm accepting ideas. > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20160429/c82dc32b/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Apr 29 13:17:51 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:17:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen problem In-Reply-To: <021d01d1a230$2f045cc0$8d0d1640$@com> References: <021d01d1a230$2f045cc0$8d0d1640$@com> Message-ID: <20160429171800.AA8A2107A6@che.dreamhost.com> The one and only EcoGen I installed blew out its oil in within the first couple hours of running. It severely damaged the engine. Generac did the service and ultimately replaced the unit. It had something to do with the two reservoirs and the hoses. At 11:59 AM 4/29/2016, you wrote: >Wrenches, > >I service an off grid home that has an EcoGen >6kW Model 58181 LP gen with a Serial Number of >8301854. It has 1,175 hrs on it during 2-1/2 years of service. > >· It appears that the crankcase is >filling with excessive amounts of oil. >· There was a Generac Service Bulletin >in July of 2013 which predates this generators >Serial Number. This bulletin alerted the >possibility of excessive oil in the crankcase >due to "incorrect routing of the pulse pump hoses". >· From the pictures on the service >bulletin (and with the SN being higher) it looks >like the generator in question has properly >routed hoses. See photo attached if you are familiar with this problem. >· There is an extra oil reservoir on >these units. The engine takes 1.7 quarts and the reservoir takes 4.2 Quarts. >· I last changed the oil (and properly >filled both engine and reservoir) at 1,124 hours >· Now at 1,175 hrs the generator runs >very roughly and blows lots of oily smelling >blue/grey smoke. Most of the oil is gone from >the reservoir so it's pretty obvious that the >oil has flooded into the crankcase. >· If the Pulse Pump hoses are routed >correctly and I'd say they are since the SN is >later than the recognized problem AND the fact >this generator ran great for over 1,100 hours >then maybe is the pulse pump itself is bad? >· I wanted to run this by this list >before talking to Generac because I know there >are a number of wrenches whom have experience with the EcoGen. >· Can I simply just drain the oil and >only refill the 1.7 Qts in the engine and run the unit? > >Thanks for your time, > >David Palumbo >Independent Power LLC >462 Solar Way Drive >Hyde Park, VT 05655 >802-371-8678 cell >802-888-4917 home > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org From rich at solartechvt.com Fri Apr 29 13:45:48 2016 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Rich Nicol) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:45:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen problem In-Reply-To: <20160429171800.AA8A2107A6@che.dreamhost.com> References: <021d01d1a230$2f045cc0$8d0d1640$@com> <20160429171800.AA8A2107A6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <004101d1a23e$fb5356b0$f1fa0410$@solartechvt.com> I've seen a number of Eco Gen's go with no issues for a long time and 2 others blow all the oil out just as Drake noted. Rather worrisome! Rich -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 1:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen problem The one and only EcoGen I installed blew out its oil in within the first couple hours of running. It severely damaged the engine. Generac did the service and ultimately replaced the unit. It had something to do with the two reservoirs and the hoses. At 11:59 AM 4/29/2016, you wrote: >Wrenches, > >I service an off grid home that has an EcoGen 6kW Model 58181 LP gen >with a Serial Number of 8301854. It has 1,175 hrs on it during 2-1/2 >years of service. > >. It appears that the crankcase is >filling with excessive amounts of oil. >. There was a Generac Service Bulletin >in July of 2013 which predates this generators Serial Number. This >bulletin alerted the possibility of excessive oil in the crankcase due >to "incorrect routing of the pulse pump hoses". >. From the pictures on the service >bulletin (and with the SN being higher) it looks like the generator in >question has properly routed hoses. See photo attached if you are >familiar with this problem. >. There is an extra oil reservoir on >these units. The engine takes 1.7 quarts and the reservoir takes 4.2 Quarts. >. I last changed the oil (and properly >filled both engine and reservoir) at 1,124 hours >. Now at 1,175 hrs the generator runs >very roughly and blows lots of oily smelling blue/grey smoke. Most of >the oil is gone from the reservoir so it's pretty obvious that the oil >has flooded into the crankcase. >. If the Pulse Pump hoses are routed >correctly and I'd say they are since the SN is later than the >recognized problem AND the fact this generator ran great for over 1,100 >hours then maybe is the pulse pump itself is bad? >. I wanted to run this by this list >before talking to Generac because I know there are a number of wrenches >whom have experience with the EcoGen. >. Can I simply just drain the oil and >only refill the 1.7 Qts in the engine and run the unit? > >Thanks for your time, > >David Palumbo >Independent Power LLC >462 Solar Way Drive >Hyde Park, VT 05655 >802-371-8678 cell >802-888-4917 home > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Darren at Solarhacker.com Fri Apr 29 13:56:55 2016 From: Darren at Solarhacker.com (Darren Emmons) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:56:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> When the generator is auto started, the inverter's charger will be enabled. After the generator is stopped, the inverter's charger will be returned to the mode before the generator started. The logic is if you are running the generator the Inverter's charger should be enabled. You could lower the charger AC limit to 0 Amps. 08:00 Inverter charger OFF 10:00 Must run start -> charger ON 11:00 Must run stop -> charger OFF >Darren On 04/27/2016 05:31 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a problem that outback tech hasn’t been able to figure out. > > off grid system > mate 3 > quad stacked VFX 3648 > > The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. > > The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator he doesn’t want the chargers to operate. > OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. > > But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. > > Outback says that shouldn’t be happening, but it is. > > Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 29 14:07:51 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:07:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> Message-ID: <5723A2F7.5020707@solarray.com> What's wrong with the chargers being on? Just set the charge settings (absorb 56 v, and absorb time 5 minutes) fairly low. It will lightly charge for a few minutes, and then go to float. Just because your customer imagines this to be a problem, doesn't mean it actually is. Its not going to hurt the batteries or use excessive fuel to go through a little refresh charge like this, and if the batteries actually are low, these charge settings will be helpful. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/29/2016 11:56 AM, Darren Emmons wrote: > When the generator is auto started, the inverter's charger will be > enabled. After the generator is stopped, the inverter's charger will > be returned to the mode before the generator started. The logic is if > you are running the generator the Inverter's charger should be > enabled. You could lower the charger AC limit to 0 Amps. > > 08:00 Inverter charger OFF > 10:00 Must run start -> charger ON > 11:00 Must run stop -> charger OFF > > >Darren > > > On 04/27/2016 05:31 PM, jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I’ve got a problem that outback tech hasn’t been able to figure out. >> >> off grid system >> mate 3 >> quad stacked VFX 3648 >> >> The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works >> fine. >> >> The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his >> generator he doesn’t want the chargers to operate. >> OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. >> >> But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. >> >> Outback says that shouldn’t be happening, but it is. >> >> Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From don at energysolarnow.com Fri Apr 29 14:35:38 2016 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:35:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta Message-ID: <20160429113537.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.9d277f1fa4.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 29 14:46:48 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:46:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> Message-ID: Look into the Versabracket. We get quite a lot of metal roofing installed around here over existing shingles with horizontal 1x4 battens. Spacing is usually 2', however. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 9:55 AM, frenergy wrote: > Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a > "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 > stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 > feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at > the stringers. I'm sure he had a *great* reason for doing so. So now I > have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" > the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on > air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with > possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at problem > solving but I'm accepting ideas. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 15:52:49 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:52:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta In-Reply-To: References: <30C8F07D-0BD2-45C0-9E90-41C339DABECA@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it's delta there is no neutral. On Apr 29, 2016 12:40, "jay" wrote: > HI Jerry and all, > > I’m sorry if I confused the issue. > I haven’t seen this, I’m doing the research for a friend. > It has been measured at numbers provided. 480 line to line, 240v line to > neutral, 2 hots wires, not 3. > > The client has been told by 3 different installers that its impossible > system to do. > And as the experts here have provided, thats just not true. > > Thanks for the input. > > jay > > > On Apr 28, 2016, at 6:58 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > I cant say l have seen a single phase delta, open delta, use two of the > three legs but not on pumps, can someone explain, what am l missing as the > term delta is three points > Jerry > On Apr 28, 2016 3:50 PM, "Jay" wrote: > > Great inverter but this is single phase. > Jay > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:10 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > > What about an SMA Tri Power inverter > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chris Mason > Date:04/28/2016 8:52 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta > > You will use a 240:480v step up transformer > On Apr 28, 2016 14:17, "jay" wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial >> water pumping site with >> >> 480v single phase delta configuration. >> >> PV will be in the 10kw range. >> >> Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 15:51:22 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:51:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> Message-ID: I would use Everest Express rail pop riveted to every trapezoid, it will add a lot of strength to the roofing. You may not bee able to get it any more though. On Apr 29, 2016 09:54, "frenergy" wrote: > Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a > "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 > stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 > feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at > the stringers. I'm sure he had a *great* reason for doing so. So now I > have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" > the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on > air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with > possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at problem > solving but I'm accepting ideas. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 29 16:54:54 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:54:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta In-Reply-To: References: <30C8F07D-0BD2-45C0-9E90-41C339DABECA@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it's 240V single phase center tapped between two legs of a 480V delta transformer, then one of the 240V legs *is* technically a neutral. What you have is two 240V legs between two of three 480V phases. That said, if the service from the utility is this type of 480/240V "split-phase," which presumably is exclusively to run pumps, then you're probably going to have a hard time coming up with a good solution, and the utility will probably not appreciate the phase imbalance that would be introduced. On the other hand, if the load is constant and greater than the solar production, they may appreciate it, provided you can find a suitable inverter, which I don't know of for this type of service. If the service is actually 480V delta and they are providing 240V for the customer's convenience with a center tapped neutral, then obviously the 3-phase 480V is where you want to connect, but because you have 3 wires and not 4 this does not seem to be the case. See if the utility will supply the third hot 480V conductor and switch the service to 3-phase. They can leave the neutral in place to support the 240V loads. [image: Inline image 1] Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > If it's delta there is no neutral. > On Apr 29, 2016 12:40, "jay" wrote: > >> HI Jerry and all, >> >> I’m sorry if I confused the issue. >> I haven’t seen this, I’m doing the research for a friend. >> It has been measured at numbers provided. 480 line to line, 240v line >> to neutral, 2 hots wires, not 3. >> >> The client has been told by 3 different installers that its impossible >> system to do. >> And as the experts here have provided, thats just not true. >> >> Thanks for the input. >> >> jay >> >> >> On Apr 28, 2016, at 6:58 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> I cant say l have seen a single phase delta, open delta, use two of the >> three legs but not on pumps, can someone explain, what am l missing as the >> term delta is three points >> Jerry >> On Apr 28, 2016 3:50 PM, "Jay" wrote: >> >> Great inverter but this is single phase. >> Jay >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:10 PM, jerrysgarage01 >> wrote: >> >> What about an SMA Tri Power inverter >> Jerry >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Chris Mason >> Date:04/28/2016 8:52 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 480 single phase delta >> >> You will use a 240:480v step up transformer >> On Apr 28, 2016 14:17, "jay" wrote: >> >>> HI All, >>> >>> I have a question from a person wanting to do a intertie on a commercial >>> water pumping site with >>> >>> 480v single phase delta configuration. >>> >>> PV will be in the 10kw range. >>> >>> Anybody have an idea of what equipment will work for this? >>> >>> >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 48449 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Apr 29 17:16:50 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:16:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <2e5ef1cfa964d4f6f49528d08e6665ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> <2e5ef1cfa964d4f6f49528d08e6665ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1397D0C6-F260-4863-A4F7-01BB46A7786E@skyfireenergy.com> August, et al; If the purlins are only 1"x4" or 1"x6" or....1"x anything, are you only relying on the 1" purlin as the attachment point or are you hitting the vertical trusses below the purlins? We are working on a corrugated roof right now and using a Schletter roof bracket. The name of it escapes me at the moment. Maybe FixT? We are attaching to purlins which are 2"x6". I wouldn't think 1"x anything would provide enough pull-out? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:09 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > It sounds like you’re talking about a purlin type setup – 4’ sounds a little far apart but I guess that’s what you have to deal with. If you have a corrugated metal roof, we’ve used S-5 CurruBrackets screwed through the metal and into the purlins and then either run the solar rail up and down the roof or install a sub-rack system (with strut or angle aluminum) perpendicular to your solar rail. > > Best, > > August > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 6:55 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing > > Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers. I'm sure he had a great reason for doing so. So now I have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at problem solving but I'm accepting ideas. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Apr 29 18:28:56 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:28:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: <1397D0C6-F260-4863-A4F7-01BB46A7786E@skyfireenergy.com> References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> <2e5ef1cfa964d4f6f49528d08e6665ed@mail.gmail.com> <1397D0C6-F260-4863-A4F7-01BB46A7786E@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Benn, We’ve done it several ways including putting four 14 x 1.5” TYPE 17 screws per attachment point through the metal and into the 1” x wood purlin. The key is that the load path all the way down needs to be capable of handling the worst case loads. So we had to check that too. Some racking manufactures such as Unirac have online calculators to give point loads. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 2:17 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing August, et al; If the purlins are only 1"x4" or 1"x6" or....1"x anything, are you only relying on the 1" purlin as the attachment point or are you hitting the vertical trusses below the purlins? We are working on a corrugated roof right now and using a Schletter roof bracket. The name of it escapes me at the moment. Maybe FixT? We are attaching to purlins which are 2"x6". I wouldn't think 1"x anything would provide enough pull-out? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:09 AM, August Goers wrote: Hi Bill, It sounds like you’re talking about a purlin type setup – 4’ sounds a little far apart but I guess that’s what you have to deal with. If you have a corrugated metal roof, we’ve used S-5 CurruBrackets screwed through the metal and into the purlins and then either run the solar rail up and down the roof or install a sub-rack system (with strut or angle aluminum) perpendicular to your solar rail. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 6:55 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers. I'm sure he had a *great* reason for doing so. So now I have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at problem solving but I'm accepting ideas. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at jordansolar.net Fri Apr 29 18:43:56 2016 From: travis at jordansolar.net (Travis Jordan) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:43:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Generator Message-ID: I have found the local Cummins rep to be very happy to set us up as a dealer for their generators. We buy through Cummins Northwest in either Missoula MT or Spokane WA. Last time I bought one I thought it was a bit over $4k.... if you hit me up off-line I will forward you my sales reps name and info.... Sorry about the slow response, got busy and didn't see the question till now! Later, Travis Jordan travis at jordansolar.net travis at mtsolar.us -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 20:19:11 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:19:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: <5723A2F7.5020707@solarray.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> <5723A2F7.5020707@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, I guess my answer is that its way easier to switch one button with easy access than go deep into the menus and have to change 4 inverters. This situation is a short term thing. In this case it is an issue as the generator cannot handle both the chargers and the load. And he doesn’t want and I agree to have an additional cycle on the batteries when they don’t need it. I’m working with OB to find out why this is happening. Thanks jay peltz power > On Apr 29, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > What's wrong with the chargers being on? Just set the charge settings (absorb 56 v, and absorb time 5 minutes) fairly low. It will lightly charge for a few minutes, and then go to float. > Just because your customer imagines this to be a problem, doesn't mean it actually is. Its not going to hurt the batteries or use excessive fuel to go through a little refresh charge like this, and if the batteries actually are low, these charge settings will be helpful. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/29/2016 11:56 AM, Darren Emmons wrote: >> When the generator is auto started, the inverter's charger will be enabled. After the generator is stopped, the inverter's charger will be returned to the mode before the generator started. The logic is if you are running the generator the Inverter's charger should be enabled. You could lower the charger AC limit to 0 Amps. >> >> 08:00 Inverter charger OFF >> 10:00 Must run start -> charger ON >> 11:00 Must run stop -> charger OFF >> >> >Darren >> >> >> On 04/27/2016 05:31 PM, jay wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> I’ve got a problem that outback tech hasn’t been able to figure out. >>> >>> off grid system >>> mate 3 >>> quad stacked VFX 3648 >>> >>> The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. >>> >>> The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator he doesn’t want the chargers to operate. >>> OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. >>> >>> But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. >>> >>> Outback says that shouldn’t be happening, but it is. >>> >>> Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 29 22:41:53 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:41:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> <5723A2F7.5020707@solarray.com> Message-ID: <57241B71.2080707@solarray.com> Hi Jay; Ah, its for load shedding. How come the max input amps setting doesn't limit the total power drawn from the generator? That should throttle back the charging rate to maintain full power thru to the loads. Giving the batteries a 56 v for 5 min and dropping back to float wouldn't constitute a cycle, its really more like the refloat setting on Outback equipment. It actually should bring the batteries a few % closer to a true full charge every day without overheating the cells. I agree programming every inverter separately is a pain, not something the customer would want to do. (I'm still waiting for that app that lets us set up systems with a laptop or phone) Good luck, please post your solution. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/29/2016 6:19 PM, jay wrote: > Hi Ray, > > I guess my answer is that its way easier to switch one button with easy access than go deep into the menus and have to change 4 inverters. > This situation is a short term thing. In this case it is an issue as the generator cannot handle both the chargers and the load. And he doesn’t want and I agree to have an additional cycle on the batteries when they don’t need it. > > I’m working with OB to find out why this is happening. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > >> On Apr 29, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> What's wrong with the chargers being on? Just set the charge settings (absorb 56 v, and absorb time 5 minutes) fairly low. It will lightly charge for a few minutes, and then go to float. >> Just because your customer imagines this to be a problem, doesn't mean it actually is. Its not going to hurt the batteries or use excessive fuel to go through a little refresh charge like this, and if the batteries actually are low, these charge settings will be helpful. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/29/2016 11:56 AM, Darren Emmons wrote: >>> When the generator is auto started, the inverter's charger will be enabled. After the generator is stopped, the inverter's charger will be returned to the mode before the generator started. The logic is if you are running the generator the Inverter's charger should be enabled. You could lower the charger AC limit to 0 Amps. >>> >>> 08:00 Inverter charger OFF >>> 10:00 Must run start -> charger ON >>> 11:00 Must run stop -> charger OFF >>> >>>> Darren >>> >>> On 04/27/2016 05:31 PM, jay wrote: >>>> HI All, >>>> >>>> I’ve got a problem that outback tech hasn’t been able to figure out. >>>> >>>> off grid system >>>> mate 3 >>>> quad stacked VFX 3648 >>>> >>>> The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. >>>> >>>> The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator he doesn’t want the chargers to operate. >>>> OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. >>>> >>>> But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. >>>> >>>> Outback says that shouldn’t be happening, but it is. >>>> >>>> Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> peltz power >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 23:18:17 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:18:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: <57241B71.2080707@solarray.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> <5723A2F7.5020707@solarray.com> <57241B71.2080707@solarray.com> Message-ID: That is what we are doing as a temporary fix. According to outback the charger should stay off if it's set that way. It's unclear why it's not doing it. Actually opticsRE will allow full programming. No phone app ( darn) but computer yes. Jay > On Apr 29, 2016, at 7:41 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Hi Jay; > > Ah, its for load shedding. How come the max input amps setting doesn't limit the total power drawn from the generator? That should throttle back the charging rate to maintain full power thru to the loads. > Giving the batteries a 56 v for 5 min and dropping back to float wouldn't constitute a cycle, its really more like the refloat setting on Outback equipment. It actually should bring the batteries a few % closer to a true full charge every day without overheating the cells. > I agree programming every inverter separately is a pain, not something the customer would want to do. (I'm still waiting for that app that lets us set up systems with a laptop or phone) > Good luck, please post your solution. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > >> On 4/29/2016 6:19 PM, jay wrote: >> Hi Ray, >> >> I guess my answer is that its way easier to switch one button with easy access than go deep into the menus and have to change 4 inverters. >> This situation is a short term thing. In this case it is an issue as the generator cannot handle both the chargers and the load. And he doesn’t want and I agree to have an additional cycle on the batteries when they don’t need it. >> >> I’m working with OB to find out why this is happening. >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >>> On Apr 29, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Ray Walters wrote: >>> >>> What's wrong with the chargers being on? Just set the charge settings (absorb 56 v, and absorb time 5 minutes) fairly low. It will lightly charge for a few minutes, and then go to float. >>> Just because your customer imagines this to be a problem, doesn't mean it actually is. Its not going to hurt the batteries or use excessive fuel to go through a little refresh charge like this, and if the batteries actually are low, these charge settings will be helpful. >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>>> On 4/29/2016 11:56 AM, Darren Emmons wrote: >>>> When the generator is auto started, the inverter's charger will be enabled. After the generator is stopped, the inverter's charger will be returned to the mode before the generator started. The logic is if you are running the generator the Inverter's charger should be enabled. You could lower the charger AC limit to 0 Amps. >>>> >>>> 08:00 Inverter charger OFF >>>> 10:00 Must run start -> charger ON >>>> 11:00 Must run stop -> charger OFF >>>> >>>>> Darren >>>> >>>>> On 04/27/2016 05:31 PM, jay wrote: >>>>> HI All, >>>>> >>>>> I’ve got a problem that outback tech hasn’t been able to figure out. >>>>> >>>>> off grid system >>>>> mate 3 >>>>> quad stacked VFX 3648 >>>>> >>>>> The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. >>>>> >>>>> The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator he doesn’t want the chargers to operate. >>>>> OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. >>>>> >>>>> But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. >>>>> >>>>> Outback says that shouldn’t be happening, but it is. >>>>> >>>>> Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> peltz power >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 08:59:08 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 08:59:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: Why size is the generator? How much load? On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 8:31 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a problem that outback tech hasn’t been able to figure out. > > off grid system > mate 3 > quad stacked VFX 3648 > > The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. > > The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator > he doesn’t want the chargers to operate. > OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. > > But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. > > Outback says that shouldn’t be happening, but it is. > > Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 10:07:56 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:07:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance Message-ID: Hey Wrenchers, A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be subject to below freezing temps)?? So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there every season for them. Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Apr 30 10:47:03 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 07:47:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> <2e5ef1cfa964d4f6f49528d08e6665ed@mail.gmail.com> <1397D0C6-F260-4863-A4F7-01BB46A7786E@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Benn, August, etc Sorry for omitting a somewhat crucial detail....below these=20 stringers it is a "standard" residential stacked roof with 2X6 rafters=20 on 16" centers with 1/2 " plywood deck. No purlins. I appreciate the=20 feedback/good ideas. Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 4/29/2016 3:28 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Benn, > > We=E2=80=99ve done it several ways including putting four 14 x 1.5=E2=80= =9D TYPE 17=20 > screws per attachment point through the metal and into the 1=E2=80=9D x w= ood=20 > purlin. The key is that the load path all the way down needs to be=20 > capable of handling the worst case loads. So we had to check that too.=20 > Some racking manufactures such as Unirac have online calculators to=20 > give point loads. > > Best, August > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > ] *On Behalf Of=20 > *Benn Kilburn > *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 2:17 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing > > August, et al; > > If the purlins are only 1"x4" or 1"x6" or....1"x anything, are you=20 > only relying on the 1" purlin as the attachment point or are you=20 > hitting the vertical trusses below the purlins? > > We are working on a corrugated roof right now and using a Schletter=20 > roof bracket. The name of it escapes me at the moment. Maybe FixT? > > We are attaching to purlins which are 2"x6". I wouldn't think 1"x=20 > anything would provide enough pull-out? > > Benn Kilburn > > SkyFire Energy Inc. > > 780-906-7807 > > > On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:09 AM, August Goers > wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > It sounds like you=E2=80=99re talking about a purlin type setup =E2= =80=93 4=E2=80=99 > sounds a little far apart but I guess that=E2=80=99s what you have to= deal > with. If you have a corrugated metal roof, we=E2=80=99ve used S-5 > CurruBrackets screwed through the metal and into the purlins and > then either run the solar rail up and down the roof or install a > sub-rack system (with strut or angle aluminum) perpendicular to > your solar rail. > > Best, > > August > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *frenergy > *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 6:55 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing > > Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) > installed by a "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for > some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the roof on the 1/2" > plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from ridge to > eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers. I'm > sure he had a /great/ reason for doing so. So now I have been > asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" > the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on > air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't > jive with possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually > pretty good at problem solving but I'm accepting ideas. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --=20 Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 11:13:04 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:13:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow never covers the array/module. I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to working through that design. I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar wrote: > > Hey Wrenchers, > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be subject to below freezing temps)?? > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there every season for them. > > Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Sat Apr 30 10:54:08 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 08:54:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001d01d1a2f0$2658a750$7309f5f0$@com> AGM - sealed type batteries are perfect for non- maintenance individuals and prolonged non usage periods as long as the bank does get a semi regular recharge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance Hey Wrenchers, A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be subject to below freezing temps)?? So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there every season for them. Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat Apr 30 12:43:57 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in alaska. my instructions were simple: leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made that mistake once. todd On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" said: > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow > never covers the array/module. > > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to > working through that design. > > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar > wrote: > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be > subject to below freezing temps)?? > > > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there > every season for them. > > > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > Adam > > > > Adam Katzman > > Autonomous Energies > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 13:28:44 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:28:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge controller with an auto equalize function. Turn it off! I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled dry After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all winter long to equalize the batteries There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months and it was not a good outcome This particular system had three charge controllers, A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe Just my thoughts, Bob ellison > On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in alaska. > > my instructions were simple: > leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". > > there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made that mistake once. > > todd > > > > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" said: > > > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and > > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze > > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow > > never covers the array/module. > > > > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp > > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to > > working through that design. > > > > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. > > > > Jesse Dahl > > > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar > > wrote: > > > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > > > > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). > > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend > > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they > > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be > > subject to below freezing temps)?? > > > > > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to > > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to > > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there > > every season for them. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > > Adam > > > > > > Adam Katzman > > > Autonomous Energies > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Apr 30 15:28:29 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:28:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell gassing point which will increase water loss. Larry On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison wrote: Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge controller with an auto equalize function. Turn it off! I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled dry After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all winter long to equalize the batteries There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months and it was not a good outcome This particular system had three charge controllers, A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe Just my thoughts, Bob ellison On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in alaska. > > my instructions were simple: > leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". > > there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made that mistake once. > > todd > > > > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" > said: > > > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and > > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze > > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow > > never covers the array/module. > > > > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp > > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to > > working through that design. > > > > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. > > > > Jesse Dahl > > > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > > > > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). > > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend > > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they > > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be > > subject to below freezing temps)?? > > > > > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to > > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to > > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there > > every season for them. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > > Adam > > > > > > Adam Katzman > > > Autonomous Energies > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Apr 30 15:54:18 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:54:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without service. Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same full charge rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I have clients with shut down houses and no load situations, we back off the Absorb set point voltage, & time at full & they still require watering. This thread started with "? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there every season for them." Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I have clients with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS are at 8-10 years and still doing the job. That said some clients even full time occupants cannot water & test the SG on a FLA to save their life (or sustain the batteries life). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell gassing point which will increase water loss. Larry On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison wrote: Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge controller with an auto equalize function. Turn it off! I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled dry After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all winter long to equalize the batteries There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months and it was not a good outcome This particular system had three charge controllers, A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe Just my thoughts, Bob ellison On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in alaska. my instructions were simple: leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made that mistake once. todd On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" said: > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow > never covers the array/module. > > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to > working through that design. > > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar > wrote: > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be > subject to below freezing temps)?? > > > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there > every season for them. > > > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > Adam > > > > Adam Katzman > > Autonomous Energies > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sun May 1 12:54:33 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 09:54:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> Message-ID: <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> Seasonal use is a very frequent application that we design for in Mexico and Canada. Usually the seasonal residence sets for 6 months or longer. We have tried several methods of preserving flooded battery life including water-miser caps, short absorb times, no absorb time, 2 stage charge with the CV below gassing point and battery additives. Even so, more than half of our Mexico customers ruin batteries in 3-5 years due to prolonged periods without maintenance. The northern customers fair much better. AGM’s perform much better than flooded but Lithium batteries are the best for long term non-use. You can simply discharge the battery to 50% then turn off the battery and walk away. When you return in 6-7 months, you will find it at the same SoC as when you left. For long term seasonal storage, that is all I recommend anymore. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Dana wrote: I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without service. Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same full charge rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I have clients with shut down houses and no load situations, we back off the Absorb set point voltage, & time at full & they still require watering. This thread started with “? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there every season for them.” Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I have clients with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS are at 8-10 years and still doing the job. That said some clients even full time occupants cannot water & test the SG on a FLA to save their life (or sustain the batteries life). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell gassing point which will increase water loss. Larry On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison > wrote: Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge controller with an auto equalize function. Turn it off! I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled dry After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all winter long to equalize the batteries There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months and it was not a good outcome This particular system had three charge controllers, A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe Just my thoughts, Bob ellison On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in alaska. > > my instructions were simple: > leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". > > there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made that mistake once. > > todd > > > > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" > said: > > > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and > > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze > > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow > > never covers the array/module. > > > > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp > > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to > > working through that design. > > > > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. > > > > Jesse Dahl > > > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > > > > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). > > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend > > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they > > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be > > subject to below freezing temps)?? > > > > > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to > > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to > > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there > > every season for them. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > > Adam > > > > > > Adam Katzman > > > Autonomous Energies > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:09:59 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 11:09:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches; watch for an article in the June/July issue of Home Power Magazine on exactly this topic. I am relieved to report that I did include everything that folks here have touched on in this thread, excellent advice. Has anyone tried the new Silicon Salt batteries for remote applications? Backwoods Solar in Idaho and Canada is selling them and field testing them. -40F to 154F temperature range (good for both north and south), no Hazmat shipping, no sulfation, claimed 15 year life. I have 4 remote PV installations in Northern BC where the golf cart batteries are nearing the end of their lifespan and need to be replaced in the next couple years. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Seasonal use is a very frequent application that we design for in Mexico > and Canada. Usually the seasonal residence sets for 6 months or longer. We > have tried several methods of preserving flooded battery life including > water-miser caps, short absorb times, no absorb time, 2 stage charge with > the CV below gassing point and battery additives. Even so, more than half > of our Mexico customers ruin batteries in 3-5 years due to prolonged > periods without maintenance. The northern customers fair much better. > > AGM’s perform much better than flooded but Lithium batteries are the best > for long term non-use. You can simply discharge the battery to 50% then > turn off the battery and walk away. When you return in 6-7 months, you will > find it at the same SoC as when you left. For long term seasonal storage, > that is all I recommend anymore. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Dana wrote: > > I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without service. > Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same full charge > rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I have clients with > shut down houses and no load situations, we back off the Absorb set point > voltage, & time at full & they still require watering. > This thread started with “? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough > to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go > out there every season for them.” > > Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I have > clients with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS are at 8-10 > years and still doing the job. That said some clients even full time > occupants cannot water & test the SG on a FLA to save their life (or > sustain the batteries life). > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - *dana at solarwork.com * - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - *208.721.7003 <208.721.7003>* > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Starlight > Solar Power Systems > *Sent:* Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance > > I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. > > I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. > Since the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above > cell gassing point which will increase water loss. > > Larry > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > > Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge > controller with an auto equalize function. > > Turn it off! > > I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no > issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries > being boiled dry > > After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize > and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept > trying all winter long to equalize the batteries > > There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! > > It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems > similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto > equalize > > It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five > months and it was not a good outcome > > This particular system had three charge controllers, > A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe > > Just my thoughts, > Bob ellison > > > > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in > alaska. > > > my instructions were simple: > leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers > (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". > > > there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one > year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, > the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only > made that mistake once. > > > todd > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" said: > > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick > connects and > > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats > with freeze > > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree > so snow > > never covers the array/module. > > > > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled > incandescent lamp > > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got > around to > > working through that design. > > > > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about > this. > > > > Jesse Dahl > > > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar > > wrote: > > > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > > > > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like > under 1kW). > > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all > recommend > > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be > that they > > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the > cabin will be > > subject to below freezing temps)?? > > > > > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it > alright to > > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to > > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go > out there > > every season for them. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > > Adam > > > > > > Adam Katzman > > > Autonomous Energies > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Sun May 1 19:00:03 2016 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 17:00:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen problem In-Reply-To: <021d01d1a230$2f045cc0$8d0d1640$@com> References: <021d01d1a230$2f045cc0$8d0d1640$@com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I have quite a few of the 6kW EcoGens out in the field and I haven't seen this issue come up (thankfully). I suspect the issue lies in the the scavenging probe or plumbing for the pump system. The probe is supposed to set the fill level for the crankcase, but since it is basically just a tube projecting down to the oil level, I'd first take a hard look at the associated tubing and check valves. There could be a failed diaphragm or a stuck check valve that's stopping the scavenging action of the pump system. It could also be a chunk of goo or something in the scavenger probe. You have oil going into the crankcase from the reservoir, but no oil being removed. As I understand it, the system is supposed to enable a longer service time between oil changes by effectively using the entire volume of oil in the reservoir and the crankcase. The oil is slowly pumped into the crankcase sump from the reservoir, and simultaneously pumped back out into the reservoir, while maintaining the correct fill level in the sump --as long as everything works properly. Have you checked out the plumbing diagram in the back of the installation manual just to confirm that the hoses are routed correctly? If the unit has operated ok for 1,000 hrs, that can't really be the issue unless a hose has cracked or has a vacuum leak at a fitting. I personally don't see an issue with draining the reservoir and sump and filling the crankcase back to the correct level so that you can run it on a temporary basis, but you will definitely want to get it fixed for the long term. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:59 AM, "Dave" wrote: > Wrenches, > > I service an off grid home that has an EcoGen 6kW Model 58181 LP gen with a Serial Number of 8301854. It has 1,175 hrs on it during 2-1/2 years of service. > > · It appears that the crankcase is filling with excessive amounts of oil. > · There was a Generac Service Bulletin in July of 2013 which predates this generators Serial Number. This bulletin alerted the possibility of excessive oil in the crankcase due to "incorrect routing of the pulse pump hoses". > · From the pictures on the service bulletin (and with the SN being higher) it looks like the generator in question has properly routed hoses. See photo attached if you are familiar with this problem. > · There is an extra oil reservoir on these units. The engine takes 1.7 quarts and the reservoir takes 4.2 Quarts. > · I last changed the oil (and properly filled both engine and reservoir) at 1,124 hours > · Now at 1,175 hrs the generator runs very roughly and blows lots of oily smelling blue/grey smoke. Most of the oil is gone from the reservoir so it's pretty obvious that the oil has flooded into the crankcase. > · If the Pulse Pump hoses are routed correctly and I'd say they are since the SN is later than the recognized problem AND the fact this generator ran great for over 1,100 hours then maybe is the pulse pump itself is bad? > · I wanted to run this by this list before talking to Generac because I know there are a number of wrenches whom have experience with the EcoGen. > · Can I simply just drain the oil and only refill the 1.7 Qts in the engine and run the unit? > > Thanks for your time, > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > 802-888-4917 home > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun May 1 20:23:28 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (wmdorsett) Date: Sun, 01 May 2016 17:23:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Winter Battery Maintenance Message-ID: Mark, this is fairly typical of the group thought around flooded lead acid batteries. ..they very often conclude with speculation about a new battery chemistry.  Bill Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone-------- Original message --------From: Dana Date: 4/30/2016 12:54 PM (GMT-08:00) To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without service. Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same full charge rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I have clients with shut down houses and no load situations, we back off the Absorb set point voltage, & time at full & they still require watering. This thread started with “? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there every season for them.” Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I have clients with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS are at 8-10 years and still doing the job. That said some clients even full time occupants cannot water & test the SG on a FLA to save their life (or sustain the batteries life).  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136E - dana at solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  P Please consider the environment before printing this email.  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off.  I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell gassing point which will increase water loss. Larry  On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison wrote: Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge controller with an auto equalize function. Turn it off! I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled dry After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all winter long to equalize the batteries There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months and it was not a good outcome This particular system had three charge controllers,A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe Just my thoughts,Bob ellison     On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote:i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in alaska.  my instructions were simple: leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off".  there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made that mistake once. todd     On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" said:> I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow > never covers the array/module. > > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to > working through that design. > > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar > wrote: > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be > subject to below freezing temps)?? > > > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there > every season for them. > > > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > Adam > > > > Adam Katzman > > Autonomous Energies > >   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Sun May 1 23:33:12 2016 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 23:33:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen problem In-Reply-To: References: <021d01d1a230$2f045cc0$8d0d1640$@com> Message-ID: <000001d1a423$5bc20e70$13462b50$@com> Thank you Luke. That is very helpful information and makes perfect sense to me from what I have seen with this generator. Dave Palumbo -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Luke Christy Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 7:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen problem Hi Dave, I have quite a few of the 6kW EcoGens out in the field and I haven't seen this issue come up (thankfully). I suspect the issue lies in the the scavenging probe or plumbing for the pump system. The probe is supposed to set the fill level for the crankcase, but since it is basically just a tube projecting down to the oil level, I'd first take a hard look at the associated tubing and check valves. There could be a failed diaphragm or a stuck check valve that's stopping the scavenging action of the pump system. It could also be a chunk of goo or something in the scavenger probe. You have oil going into the crankcase from the reservoir, but no oil being removed. As I understand it, the system is supposed to enable a longer service time between oil changes by effectively using the entire volume of oil in the reservoir and the crankcase. The oil is slowly pumped into the crankcase sump from the reservoir, and simultaneously pumped back out into the reservoir, while maintaining the correct fill level in the sump --as long as everything works properly. Have you checked out the plumbing diagram in the back of the installation manual just to confirm that the hoses are routed correctly? If the unit has operated ok for 1,000 hrs, that can't really be the issue unless a hose has cracked or has a vacuum leak at a fitting. I personally don't see an issue with draining the reservoir and sump and filling the crankcase back to the correct level so that you can run it on a temporary basis, but you will definitely want to get it fixed for the long term. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerT: Certification #ST032611-03 Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:59 AM, "Dave" wrote: > Wrenches, > > I service an off grid home that has an EcoGen 6kW Model 58181 LP gen with a Serial Number of 8301854. It has 1,175 hrs on it during 2-1/2 years of service. > > . It appears that the crankcase is filling with excessive amounts of oil. > . There was a Generac Service Bulletin in July of 2013 which predates this generators Serial Number. This bulletin alerted the possibility of excessive oil in the crankcase due to "incorrect routing of the pulse pump hoses". > . From the pictures on the service bulletin (and with the SN being higher) it looks like the generator in question has properly routed hoses. See photo attached if you are familiar with this problem. > . There is an extra oil reservoir on these units. The engine takes 1.7 quarts and the reservoir takes 4.2 Quarts. > . I last changed the oil (and properly filled both engine and reservoir) at 1,124 hours > . Now at 1,175 hrs the generator runs very roughly and blows lots of oily smelling blue/grey smoke. Most of the oil is gone from the reservoir so it's pretty obvious that the oil has flooded into the crankcase. > . If the Pulse Pump hoses are routed correctly and I'd say they are since the SN is later than the recognized problem AND the fact this generator ran great for over 1,100 hours then maybe is the pulse pump itself is bad? > . I wanted to run this by this list before talking to Generac because I know there are a number of wrenches whom have experience with the EcoGen. > . Can I simply just drain the oil and only refill the 1.7 Qts in the engine and run the unit? > > Thanks for your time, > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > 802-888-4917 home > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From frenergy at psln.com Sun May 1 23:41:35 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 20:41:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <222b3c7d-619e-415c-3f25-883221e2d82d@psln.com> Larry, When you say "customers ruin the batteries" are they=20 sulphating to death or electrolyte getting too low or? And your sure=20 its due to the lack of...cycling? watering? proper charging? during the=20 prolonged periods or just poor care overall. Thanks for a bit more insight. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 5/1/2016 9:54 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Seasonal use is a very frequent application that we design for in=20 > Mexico and Canada. Usually the seasonal residence sets for 6 months or=20 > longer. We have tried several methods of preserving flooded battery=20 > life including water-miser caps, short absorb times, no absorb time, 2=20 > stage charge with the CV below gassing point and battery additives.=20 > Even so, more than half of our Mexico customers ruin batteries in 3-5=20 > years due to prolonged periods without maintenance. The northern=20 > customers fair much better. > > AGM=E2=80=99s perform much better than flooded but Lithium batteries are = the=20 > best for long term non-use. You can simply discharge the battery to=20 > 50% then turn off the battery and walk away. When you return in 6-7=20 > months, you will find it at the same SoC as when you left. For long=20 > term seasonal storage, that is all I recommend anymore. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Dana > wrote: > > I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without=20 > service. Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same=20 > full charge rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I=20 > have clients with shut down houses and no load situations, we back off=20 > the Absorb set point voltage, & time at full & they still require=20 > watering. > This thread started with =E2=80=9C? I don't think the friend will be savv= y=20 > enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like=20 > having to go out there every season for them.=E2=80=9D > Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I=20 > have clients with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS=20 > are at 8-10 years and still doing the job. That said some clients even=20 > full time occupants cannot water & test the SG on a FLA to save their=20 > life (or sustain the batteries life). > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - *dana at solarwork.com * - Web -=20 > solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - *208.721.7003* > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems > *Sent:* Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance > I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. > I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours.=20 > Since the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time=20 > above cell gassing point which will increase water loss. > > Larry > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison > wrote: > Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a=20 > charge controller with an auto equalize function. > Turn it off! > I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with=20 > no issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the=20 > batteries being boiled dry > After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto=20 > equalize and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it=20 > just kept trying all winter long to equalize the batteries > There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! > It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems=20 > similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the=20 > auto equalize > It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like=20 > five months and it was not a good outcome > This particular system had three charge controllers, > A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe > Just my thoughts, > Bob ellison > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com=20 > wrote: > >> i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence=20 >> in alaska. >> >> my instructions were simple: >> leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers=20 >> (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". >> >> there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until=20 >> one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with=20 >> no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they=20 >> froze. he only made that mistake once. >> >> todd >> >> On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" > > said: >> >> > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick conn= ects and >> > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find=20 >> bats with freeze >> > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at=20 >> 90degree so snow >> > never covers the array/module. >> > >> > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled=20 >> incandescent lamp >> > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't=20 >> got around to >> > working through that design. >> > >> > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts=20 >> about this. >> > >> > Jesse Dahl >> > >> > NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician >> > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar=20 >> > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Hey Wrenchers, >> > > >> > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like=20 >> under 1kW). >> > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you=20 >> all recommend >> > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation=20 >> would be that they >> > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter=20 >> (the cabin will be >> > subject to below freezing temps)?? >> > > >> > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is=20 >> it alright to >> > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to >> > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to=20 >> go out there >> > every season for them. >> > > >> > > Thanks for any thoughts. >> > > Adam >> > > >> > > Adam Katzman >> > > Autonomous Energies >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:=20 > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht= ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --=20 Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon May 2 08:43:35 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 06:43:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failure Modes Solar Edge Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I just got the chance to work on my first Solar Edge system. We were performing a service call on a system that another contractor installed and is now out of the business. One of the power optimizers had failed. No big deal, but I was surprised it knocked out the entire string. For this system, about 35% of the array had sat been unproductive for over a year because this customer hadn't paid attention. If an optimizer goes down, does it always knock out the whole string? Or are there different modes of failures that allow the string to keep producing. Is this common type of failure? If so, it seems like there is still a significant advantage to the parallel architecture with a trunk cable. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Mon May 2 10:00:13 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:00:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failure Modes Solar Edge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, That outs not the typical type of failure in my experience. Usually, an optimize failure just takes out the one module's production, although I have seen a couple of failures that either disable the whole string or even the inverter. If you establish communications with the SE monitoring portal, then you can get error warnings that would appraise you of a variety of problems, including any production issues. Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On May 2, 2016 8:44 AM, "Mac Lewis" wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I just got the chance to work on my first Solar Edge system. We were > performing a service call on a system that another contractor installed and > is now out of the business. > > One of the power optimizers had failed. No big deal, but I was surprised > it knocked out the entire string. For this system, about 35% of the array > had sat been unproductive for over a year because this customer hadn't paid > attention. > > If an optimizer goes down, does it always knock out the whole string? Or > are there different modes of failures that allow the string to keep > producing. Is this common type of failure? If so, it seems like there is > still a significant advantage to the parallel architecture with a trunk > cable. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon May 2 12:26:45 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:26:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failure Modes Solar Edge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, I have not encountered that failure mode. Typically only the module attached to that Optimizer is out of production if the optimizer fails. I would second Howie's comment about using the online alerts. They will alert for Optimizer, string, or inverter failure, sending you an email if anything goes wrong. We typically set up the customer and our monitoring email account to receive these alerts. Carl Adams SunRock Solar NACEP Certified PV Instsller On May 2, 2016 10:00 AM, "Howie Michaelson" wrote: > Mac, > That outs not the typical type of failure in my experience. Usually, an > optimize failure just takes out the one module's production, although I > have seen a couple of failures that either disable the whole string or even > the inverter. If you establish communications with the SE monitoring > portal, then you can get error warnings that would appraise you of a > variety of problems, including any production issues. > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > On May 2, 2016 8:44 AM, "Mac Lewis" wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I just got the chance to work on my first Solar Edge system. We were >> performing a service call on a system that another contractor installed and >> is now out of the business. >> >> One of the power optimizers had failed. No big deal, but I was surprised >> it knocked out the entire string. For this system, about 35% of the array >> had sat been unproductive for over a year because this customer hadn't paid >> attention. >> >> If an optimizer goes down, does it always knock out the whole string? Or >> are there different modes of failures that allow the string to keep >> producing. Is this common type of failure? If so, it seems like there is >> still a significant advantage to the parallel architecture with a trunk >> cable. >> >> Thanks >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon May 2 12:52:13 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:52:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: <222b3c7d-619e-415c-3f25-883221e2d82d@psln.com> References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> <222b3c7d-619e-415c-3f25-883221e2d82d@psln.com> Message-ID: <003901d1a492$fa29a9f0$ee7cfdd0$@com> All of the below seem to be contributing factors. It basically called lack of care. Over filling, under filling, not doing SG tests and dealing with the results, leaving loads on with not backup generator on site or hooked up. Sloppy, Lazy, or total lack of a real battery care program. Not for lack of our team trying to impress folks with the consequences of poor care. You can lead a horse to water..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 9:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance Larry, When you say "customers ruin the batteries" are they sulphating to death or electrolyte getting too low or? And your sure its due to the lack of...cycling? watering? proper charging? during the prolonged periods or just poor care overall. Thanks for a bit more insight. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 5/1/2016 9:54 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Seasonal use is a very frequent application that we design for in Mexico and Canada. Usually the seasonal residence sets for 6 months or longer. We have tried several methods of preserving flooded battery life including water-miser caps, short absorb times, no absorb time, 2 stage charge with the CV below gassing point and battery additives. Even so, more than half of our Mexico customers ruin batteries in 3-5 years due to prolonged periods without maintenance. The northern customers fair much better. AGM's perform much better than flooded but Lithium batteries are the best for long term non-use. You can simply discharge the battery to 50% then turn off the battery and walk away. When you return in 6-7 months, you will find it at the same SoC as when you left. For long term seasonal storage, that is all I recommend anymore. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Dana wrote: I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without service. Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same full charge rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I have clients with shut down houses and no load situations, we back off the Absorb set point voltage, & time at full & they still require watering. This thread started with "? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there every season for them." Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I have clients with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS are at 8-10 years and still doing the job. That said some clients even full time occupants cannot water & test the SG on a FLA to save their life (or sustain the batteries life). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell gassing point which will increase water loss. Larry On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison wrote: Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge controller with an auto equalize function. Turn it off! I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled dry After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all winter long to equalize the batteries There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months and it was not a good outcome This particular system had three charge controllers, A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe Just my thoughts, Bob ellison On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in alaska. my instructions were simple: leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made that mistake once. todd On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" said: > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow > never covers the array/module. > > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to > working through that design. > > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar > wrote: > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be > subject to below freezing temps)?? > > > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there > every season for them. > > > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > Adam > > > > Adam Katzman > > Autonomous Energies > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon May 2 08:06:23 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 08:06:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B8924A1-794F-48D9-8832-E09B034165F0@swnl.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon May 2 17:25:49 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 14:25:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: <222b3c7d-619e-415c-3f25-883221e2d82d@psln.com> References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> <222b3c7d-619e-415c-3f25-883221e2d82d@psln.com> Message-ID: <41869594-2AF1-4B5E-BA40-B7F77CC871C0@starlightsolar.com> Hi Bill, Pretty much all you mentioned: leaving batteries unattended for many months causes damage from loss of water below the plate tops, sulfation from not being equalized for many months, long term high heat in the SW desert. Add to that the neglect when they are there and you get short lived batteries. Larry On May 1, 2016, at 8:41 PM, frenergy wrote: Larry, When you say "customers ruin the batteries" are they sulphating to death or electrolyte getting too low or? And your sure its due to the lack of...cycling? watering? proper charging? during the prolonged periods or just poor care overall. Thanks for a bit more insight. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 5/1/2016 9:54 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Seasonal use is a very frequent application that we design for in Mexico and Canada. Usually the seasonal residence sets for 6 months or longer. We have tried several methods of preserving flooded battery life including water-miser caps, short absorb times, no absorb time, 2 stage charge with the CV below gassing point and battery additives. Even so, more than half of our Mexico customers ruin batteries in 3-5 years due to prolonged periods without maintenance. The northern customers fair much better. > > AGM’s perform much better than flooded but Lithium batteries are the best for long term non-use. You can simply discharge the battery to 50% then turn off the battery and walk away. When you return in 6-7 months, you will find it at the same SoC as when you left. For long term seasonal storage, that is all I recommend anymore. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Dana < dana at solarwork.com > wrote: > > I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without service. Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same full charge rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I have clients with shut down houses and no load situations, we back off the Absorb set point voltage, & time at full & they still require watering. > This thread started with “? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there every season for them.” > > Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I have clients with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS are at 8-10 years and still doing the job. That said some clients even full time occupants cannot water & test the SG on a FLA to save their life (or sustain the batteries life). > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance > > I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. > > I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell gassing point which will increase water loss. > > Larry > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison > wrote: > > Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge controller with an auto equalize function. > > Turn it off! > > I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled dry > > After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all winter long to equalize the batteries > > There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! > > It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize > > It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months and it was not a good outcome > > This particular system had three charge controllers, > A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe > > Just my thoughts, > Bob ellison > > > > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > >> i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in alaska. >> >> my instructions were simple: >> leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". >> >> there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made that mistake once. >> >> todd >> >> >> >> >> >> On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" < dahlsolar at gmail.com > said: >> >> > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and >> > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze >> > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow >> > never covers the array/module. >> > >> > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp >> > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to >> > working through that design. >> > >> > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. >> > >> > Jesse Dahl >> > >> > NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician >> > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar < autonomousenergies at gmail.com > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Hey Wrenchers, >> > > >> > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). >> > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend >> > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they >> > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be >> > subject to below freezing temps)?? >> > > >> > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to >> > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to >> > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there >> > every season for them. >> > > >> > > Thanks for any thoughts. >> > > Adam >> > > >> > > Adam Katzman >> > > Autonomous Energies >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 3 03:10:21 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 00:10:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE with two hubs. Message-ID: Friends: I am setting up an Optics RE system with a system that has 8 FX inverters and 3 charge controllers. I installed two Mate3s and a Flexnet-DC. I need two shunts for the Inverters because 4 are connected in one DC1000 and 4 in the other. I installed a third shunt for the PV. The inverter Mate3 and Flexnet connects into one 10 port hub and the PV Mate3 connects into another hub with the charge controllers. Do I really need the PV shunt? How is the Flexnet processing charge current if it does not know there are charge controllers? I can’t seem to find the screen where you label the charge controllers. I am used to setting these up with Radians. Am I missing something? Any help is appreciates. Because when I posed this question to Outback and got the audible equivalent to a blank stare: Thanks in advance, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue May 3 09:43:04 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 06:43:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing In-Reply-To: References: <57229976.7070205@solarray.com> <021b01d1a20d$ed301180$c7903480$@com> <3504a6c6-f711-364e-00c0-86baff5586a6@psln.com> <2e5ef1cfa964d4f6f49528d08e6665ed@mail.gmail.com> <1397D0C6-F260-4863-A4F7-01BB46A7786E@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <07ccfc14d97bc2c457816c0b545e543c@mail.gmail.com> Bill – So it sounds like you have a corrugated metal roof installed by a handyman over an existing comp shingle roof? It might be wise to get your building department planchecker or inspector involved at this point since it sounds like you have a potential code violation. Adding PV to an already shotty roof setup will just compound problems down the line. That said, if you can’t trust the purlins (or what I think you are referring to as 1” x 4” stringers) to be structural members, then I suppose you could install long hanger bolts all the way through the metal roof and into the rafters? You could use a double jam-nut setup to mount your racking. Just an idea, but it is not an ideal situation. Good luck out there! Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Saturday, April 30, 2016 7:47 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Benn, August, etc Sorry for omitting a somewhat crucial detail....below these stringers it is a "standard" residential stacked roof with 2X6 rafters on 16" centers with 1/2 " plywood deck. No purlins. I appreciate the feedback/good ideas. Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 4/29/2016 3:28 PM, August Goers wrote: Benn, We’ve done it several ways including putting four 14 x 1.5” TYPE 17 screws per attachment point through the metal and into the 1” x wood purlin. The key is that the load path all the way down needs to be capable of handling the worst case loads. So we had to check that too. Some racking manufactures such as Unirac have online calculators to give point loads. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 2:17 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing August, et al; If the purlins are only 1"x4" or 1"x6" or....1"x anything, are you only relying on the 1" purlin as the attachment point or are you hitting the vertical trusses below the purlins? We are working on a corrugated roof right now and using a Schletter roof bracket. The name of it escapes me at the moment. Maybe FixT? We are attaching to purlins which are 2"x6". I wouldn't think 1"x anything would provide enough pull-out? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:09 AM, August Goers wrote: Hi Bill, It sounds like you’re talking about a purlin type setup – 4’ sounds a little far apart but I guess that’s what you have to deal with. If you have a corrugated metal roof, we’ve used S-5 CurruBrackets screwed through the metal and into the purlins and then either run the solar rail up and down the roof or install a sub-rack system (with strut or angle aluminum) perpendicular to your solar rail. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 6:55 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Goofy roofing Recently, a customer had a metal roof (not standing seam) installed by a "handyman". Pretty clean installation however for some reason he ran 1X6 stringers across the roof on the 1/2" plywood deck spaced about every 4 feet (as you go from ridge to eaves). Of course the roofing screws are at the stringers. I'm sure he had a *great* reason for doing so. So now I have been asked to install an array on this roof. You can feel how "soft" the roof is as you walk on it of course because you are walking on air-below-metal for most of the roof. Stringer locations don't jive with possible feet/post locations for rail. I'm usually pretty good at problem solving but I'm accepting ideas. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue May 3 10:09:06 2016 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:09:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: <41869594-2AF1-4B5E-BA40-B7F77CC871C0@starlightsolar.com> References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> <222b3c7d-619e-415c-3f25-883221e2d82d@psln.com> <41869594-2AF1-4B5E-BA40-B7F77CC871C0@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA5571B8B886C7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Good Morning Wrenches! I've been watching this topic over the past few days and just wanted to put in my .02cents.. A Flooded Lead Acid Battery that is at 1.265 or greater SG will not freeze until it's exposed to temperatures lesser than -90F or -60C. The same battery at only 1.220 SG will freeze at +20F or -6C. A flooded Lead Acid battery regardless of manufacture will self-discharge at about 8-10% per months when not under charge. For me, in most cases that gives you 3-4 months at best to disconnect a system. If you are decommissioning the system in Nov, recommissioning in Feb/March you should be okay. The problem is too many customers shut down in Oct, and don't come back until March/April... if you get a late season cold snap this is when you have problems with freezing batteries. To prevent this there are a few schools of thought... One... You shut down completely and remove the batteries... This is kind of a pain and most customer really don't want to lug batteries to and from their cabins. They may do this for a season or two, but eventually the lazy bug hits... Two... You shut down everything but the controller. You need to have the array installed so that it's higher than the snow will be, and it's suggested that you angle the panels 75+ degrees to keep snow from accumulating on the panels. In northern Canada/Alaska I've seen panels installed at 90degree to keep snow from accumulating... With this you need to disable Auto EQ, and I'd also suggest insulating the battery bank, and moving them together so they will help keep each other warm. When you return, you'll have to remove the insulation, and separate the batteries again so you can get summer time airflow between the batteries. Generally leaving the controller on works well 99% of the time... unfortunately the only 100% fool proof way to not have frozen batteries is to pull them, or go with a AGM battery, although we did have a customer last season where the AGM batteries froze in an installation in Northern Canada. This is what happens when you install them outside on the porch! Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:rollsebaad9] From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 2:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance Hi Bill, Pretty much all you mentioned: leaving batteries unattended for many months causes damage from loss of water below the plate tops, sulfation from not being equalized for many months, long term high heat in the SW desert. Add to that the neglect when they are there and you get short lived batteries. Larry On May 1, 2016, at 8:41 PM, frenergy > wrote: Larry, When you say "customers ruin the batteries" are they sulphating to death or electrolyte getting too low or? And your sure its due to the lack of...cycling? watering? proper charging? during the prolonged periods or just poor care overall. Thanks for a bit more insight. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 5/1/2016 9:54 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Seasonal use is a very frequent application that we design for in Mexico and Canada. Usually the seasonal residence sets for 6 months or longer. We have tried several methods of preserving flooded battery life including water-miser caps, short absorb times, no absorb time, 2 stage charge with the CV below gassing point and battery additives. Even so, more than half of our Mexico customers ruin batteries in 3-5 years due to prolonged periods without maintenance. The northern customers fair much better. AGM's perform much better than flooded but Lithium batteries are the best for long term non-use. You can simply discharge the battery to 50% then turn off the battery and walk away. When you return in 6-7 months, you will find it at the same SoC as when you left. For long term seasonal storage, that is all I recommend anymore. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Dana > wrote: I have yet to see any FLA battery that can go 4-5 months without service. Typically a FLA needs an increased voltage to attain the same full charge rating at low temps, but you still require watering. I have clients with shut down houses and no load situations, we back off the Absorb set point voltage, & time at full & they still require watering. This thread started with "? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there every season for them." Based on this statement would you still recommend FAL batteries? I have clients with AGMS that are partial year residents & their AGMS are at 8-10 years and still doing the job. That said some clients even full time occupants cannot water & test the SG on a FLA to save their life (or sustain the batteries life). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 1:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance I agree with Todd and Bob, leave the PV solar on, EQ off. I also instruct my customers to reduce the absorb timer to 0.1 hours. Since the battery is staying full, there is no need to spend time above cell gassing point which will increase water loss. Larry On Apr 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, RE Ellison > wrote: Everything mentioned so far works well however, if you're using a charge controller with an auto equalize function. Turn it off! I had a friend who has left his system over the winter for years with no issues and he shut his inverters off one year got back to the batteries being boiled dry After a lot of looking I figured out that it had gone into auto equalize and since the available sunshine per day was so low that it just kept trying all winter long to equalize the batteries There was a battery replacement in his future relatively quickly! It was an expensive lesson and I have since gone to all of the systems similar to that that I have installed over the years and shut off the auto equalize It's not an issue if somebody's around but they were gone for like five months and it was not a good outcome This particular system had three charge controllers, A combination of MX 60 and FM 60s I believe Just my thoughts, Bob ellison On Apr 30, 2016, at 12:43 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: i built a system for a friend's seasonal (summer) off-grid residence in alaska. my instructions were simple: leave the pv input & cc output breakers "on" and the load breakers (inverter, dc sunfrost etc) "off". there was never a problem with winter freezing (even at -40f) until one year when he accidently left the inverter's breaker on. even with no load, the inverter's idle current drained the batteries and they froze. he only made that mistake once. todd On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:13am, "Solar" > said: > I do systems like this every year. (-45F winter temps). Use quick connects and > train the customer on the batteries and their maintenance. Find bats with freeze > points that match your area. I typically mount the modules at 90degree so snow > never covers the array/module. > > I always recommend removal. I've thought about temp controlled incandescent lamp > with a timer in a battery box for really cold nights.... Haven't got around to > working through that design. > > I'm interested in the real seasoned off-grid installers thoughts about this. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:07 AM, AE Solar > > wrote: > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > > > A friend wants a very small battery set up at hunting cabin (like under 1kW). > It will only be used in the warmer months. I'm wondering what you all recommend > for the batteries over the winter. I assume the ideal situation would be that they > would be disconnected and brought somewhere warm for the winter (the cabin will be > subject to below freezing temps)?? > > > > So long as they go into the colder months with a full charge is it alright to > leave them hooked up? I don't think the friend will be savvy enough to > disconnect/connect them every year and I don't feel like having to go out there > every season for them. > > > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > Adam > > > > Adam Katzman > > Autonomous Energies > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rollsebaad9 Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: rollsebaad9 URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 3 10:22:33 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 07:22:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA5571B8B886C7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> <222b3c7d-619e-415c-3f25-883221e2d82d@psln.com> <41869594-2AF1-4B5E-BA40-B7F77CC871C0@starlightsolar.com> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA5571B8B886C7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: Hi Steve Thanks I would only add that those self discharge rates are for good condition batteries. As they age, it increases. Question. How does the self discharge rates vary between, VRLA and flooded, or do they? Thx Jay Peltz power > On May 3, 2016, at 7:09 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > > Good Morning Wrenches! > > I’ve been watching this topic over the past few days and just wanted to put in my .02cents.. > > A Flooded Lead Acid Battery that is at 1.265 or greater SG will not freeze until it’s exposed to temperatures lesser than -90F or -60C. > > The same battery at only 1.220 SG will freeze at +20F or -6C. > > A flooded Lead Acid battery regardless of manufacture will self-discharge at about 8-10% per months when not under charge. > > For me, in most cases that gives you 3-4 months at best to disconnect a system. If you are decommissioning the system in Nov, recommissioning in Feb/March you should be okay. > > The problem is too many customers shut down in Oct, and don’t come back until March/April… if you get a late season cold snap this is when you have problems with freezing batteries. > > To prevent this there are a few schools of thought… > > One… You shut down completely and remove the batteries… This is kind of a pain and most customer really don’t want to lug batteries to and from their cabins. They may do this for a season or two, but eventually the lazy bug hits… > > Two… You shut down everything but the controller. You need to have the array installed so that it’s higher than the snow will be, and it’s suggested that you angle the panels 75+ degrees to keep snow from accumulating on the panels. In northern Canada/Alaska I’ve seen panels installed at 90degree to keep snow from accumulating… With this you need to disable Auto EQ, and I’d also suggest insulating the battery bank, and moving them together so they will help keep each other warm. When you return, you’ll have to remove the insulation, and separate the batteries again so you can get summer time airflow between the batteries. > > Generally leaving the controller on works well 99% of the time… unfortunately the only 100% fool proof way to not have frozen batteries is to pull them, or go with a AGM battery, although we did have a customer last season where the AGM batteries froze in an installation in Northern Canada. This is what happens when you install them outside on the porch! > > > > > > Steve Higgins > Technical Services Manager > P: +1.902.597.4020 > M: +1.206.790.5840 > F: +1.902.597.8447 > Surrette Battery Company > Exclusive manufacturer of > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 3 10:18:16 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 07:18:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE with two hubs. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87A9ACB2-B12C-4127-8065-D7AFBF6086DA@gmail.com> Hi William, Yes you need the shunt for PV the FNDC to read correctly I'm not sure exactly what you mean about labeling the cc? The FNDC doesn't care what each shunt does. Cc, inverter DC loads etc, if that's what you mean Jay Peltz power. > On May 3, 2016, at 12:10 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am setting up an Optics RE system with a system that has 8 FX inverters and 3 charge controllers. I installed two Mate3s and a Flexnet-DC. I need two shunts for the Inverters because 4 are connected in one DC1000 and 4 in the other. I installed a third shunt for the PV. > > The inverter Mate3 and Flexnet connects into one 10 port hub and the PV Mate3 connects into another hub with the charge controllers. > > Do I really need the PV shunt? How is the Flexnet processing charge current if it does not know there are charge controllers? > > I can’t seem to find the screen where you label the charge controllers. I am used to setting these up with Radians. Am I missing something? > > Any help is appreciates. Because when I posed this question to Outback and got the audible equivalent to a blank stare: > > > Thanks in advance, > > William Miller > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 3 11:44:44 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 08:44:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE with two hubs. In-Reply-To: <87A9ACB2-B12C-4127-8065-D7AFBF6086DA@gmail.com> References: <87A9ACB2-B12C-4127-8065-D7AFBF6086DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F5B5D0-79EF-4320-AAC3-8DE153127DD1@millersolar.com> Jay: Thanks for the reply. I meant label the shunts. Doesn't the FNDC need to differentiate between PV charge and inverter charge? William > On May 3, 2016, at 7:18 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi William, > > Yes you need the shunt for PV the FNDC to read correctly > > I'm not sure exactly what you mean about labeling the cc? > The FNDC doesn't care what each shunt does. Cc, inverter DC loads etc, if that's what you mean > > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > >> On May 3, 2016, at 12:10 AM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> I am setting up an Optics RE system with a system that has 8 FX inverters and 3 charge controllers. I installed two Mate3s and a Flexnet-DC. I need two shunts for the Inverters because 4 are connected in one DC1000 and 4 in the other. I installed a third shunt for the PV. >> >> The inverter Mate3 and Flexnet connects into one 10 port hub and the PV Mate3 connects into another hub with the charge controllers. >> >> Do I really need the PV shunt? How is the Flexnet processing charge current if it does not know there are charge controllers? >> >> I can’t seem to find the screen where you label the charge controllers. I am used to setting these up with Radians. Am I missing something? >> >> Any help is appreciates. Because when I posed this question to Outback and got the audible equivalent to a blank stare: >> >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:21:37 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 09:21:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE with two hubs. In-Reply-To: <50F5B5D0-79EF-4320-AAC3-8DE153127DD1@millersolar.com> References: <87A9ACB2-B12C-4127-8065-D7AFBF6086DA@gmail.com> <50F5B5D0-79EF-4320-AAC3-8DE153127DD1@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Nope doesn't care. You could have 1 shunt or 3. You just get to monitor the 3 shunts. The m3 display uses comm from the cc Jay Sent from my iPhone > On May 3, 2016, at 8:44 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > Thanks for the reply. I meant label the shunts. Doesn't the FNDC need to differentiate between PV charge and inverter charge? > > William > >> On May 3, 2016, at 7:18 AM, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi William, >> >> Yes you need the shunt for PV the FNDC to read correctly >> >> I'm not sure exactly what you mean about labeling the cc? >> The FNDC doesn't care what each shunt does. Cc, inverter DC loads etc, if that's what you mean >> >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >>> On May 3, 2016, at 12:10 AM, William Miller wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> I am setting up an Optics RE system with a system that has 8 FX inverters and 3 charge controllers. I installed two Mate3s and a Flexnet-DC. I need two shunts for the Inverters because 4 are connected in one DC1000 and 4 in the other. I installed a third shunt for the PV. >>> >>> The inverter Mate3 and Flexnet connects into one 10 port hub and the PV Mate3 connects into another hub with the charge controllers. >>> >>> Do I really need the PV shunt? How is the Flexnet processing charge current if it does not know there are charge controllers? >>> >>> I can’t seem to find the screen where you label the charge controllers. I am used to setting these up with Radians. Am I missing something? >>> >>> Any help is appreciates. Because when I posed this question to Outback and got the audible equivalent to a blank stare: >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue May 3 12:33:49 2016 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:33:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <1462034637.60118540@webmail.finestplanet.com> <004c01d1a31a$15bd26d0$41377470$@com> <1799BE19-1D01-405D-A5DC-74125CF72B3F@starlightsolar.com> <222b3c7d-619e-415c-3f25-883221e2d82d@psln.com> <41869594-2AF1-4B5E-BA40-B7F77CC871C0@starlightsolar.com> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA5571B8B886C7@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA5571B8B88882@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Jay, VRLAs tend to have a self-discharge rate, depending on the chemistry as low as 2%, but as high as 5%... From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 7:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winter Battery Maintenance Hi Steve Thanks I would only add that those self discharge rates are for good condition batteries. As they age, it increases. Question. How does the self discharge rates vary between, VRLA and flooded, or do they? Thx Jay Peltz power On May 3, 2016, at 7:09 AM, Steve Higgins > wrote: Good Morning Wrenches! I’ve been watching this topic over the past few days and just wanted to put in my .02cents.. A Flooded Lead Acid Battery that is at 1.265 or greater SG will not freeze until it’s exposed to temperatures lesser than -90F or -60C. The same battery at only 1.220 SG will freeze at +20F or -6C. A flooded Lead Acid battery regardless of manufacture will self-discharge at about 8-10% per months when not under charge. For me, in most cases that gives you 3-4 months at best to disconnect a system. If you are decommissioning the system in Nov, recommissioning in Feb/March you should be okay. The problem is too many customers shut down in Oct, and don’t come back until March/April… if you get a late season cold snap this is when you have problems with freezing batteries. To prevent this there are a few schools of thought… One… You shut down completely and remove the batteries… This is kind of a pain and most customer really don’t want to lug batteries to and from their cabins. They may do this for a season or two, but eventually the lazy bug hits… Two… You shut down everything but the controller. You need to have the array installed so that it’s higher than the snow will be, and it’s suggested that you angle the panels 75+ degrees to keep snow from accumulating on the panels. In northern Canada/Alaska I’ve seen panels installed at 90degree to keep snow from accumulating… With this you need to disable Auto EQ, and I’d also suggest insulating the battery bank, and moving them together so they will help keep each other warm. When you return, you’ll have to remove the insulation, and separate the batteries again so you can get summer time airflow between the batteries. Generally leaving the controller on works well 99% of the time… unfortunately the only 100% fool proof way to not have frozen batteries is to pull them, or go with a AGM battery, although we did have a customer last season where the AGM batteries froze in an installation in Northern Canada. This is what happens when you install them outside on the porch! Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue May 3 20:12:48 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:12:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: There's new firmware out today for the MATE3, you should probably try that. On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 8:31 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a problem that outback tech hasn’t been able to figure out. > > off grid system > mate 3 > quad stacked VFX 3648 > > The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. > > The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator > he doesn’t want the chargers to operate. > OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. > > But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. > > Outback says that shouldn’t be happening, but it is. > > Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed May 4 13:30:10 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 11:30:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed May 4 14:22:36 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:22:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d1a631$f000af00$d0020d00$@burt@glbcc.com> Hi August, I do not see where the code requires that the disconnect DIRECTLY support the locking functionality. Any breaker can be locked open with standard LOTO hardware, and in my opinion would meet this code requirement of being CAPABLE of being locked in the open position. It does not say that it must have a ‘lockable disconnecting means’, as the definition describes. https://www.bradyid.com/en-us/66321/prod-2024847.html?cat=BRID2993902 Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 6:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked Hi Wrenches, We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a lockable AC disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little NEC background info: 2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the following features: Located where readily accessible Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with live parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in the event of a power-supply failure Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the disconnect equipment might be energized. Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment, including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from both directions. See 240.40. Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit Capable of being locked in the open (off) position NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means: Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock installed. Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with 705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one shown for Square D: http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old types of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is requiring that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the time of our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 4 20:16:24 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 17:16:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> Hi Allan, I was at our new Kohler dealer today. They had a trailer mounted, propane water cooled 25kw with fuel storage and sound enclosure, really nice machine, but it was $29,000 Its kind of weird that there isn’t anything in the lower sizes that is water cooled, good quality, in propane anyway. jay peltz power > On May 4, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Lena and all, > I was watching this thread closely, as I have shared your concerns and I was hoping to hear of any new solutions. In this thread I hear of Gillette (always positively over the years that this question has come up), one 5.5kW Onan RV set (120V only and too small for all but an Outback VFX at close to sea level), and Hardy diesel units. I have nothing to add to these suggestions. > > I went out on a limb a few years ago in suggesting the Generac EcoGen, hoping that this would fill this need and restore Generac as a worthy name. I think now I have to just say "eh..." - yes, it works, but too many problems have been noted here, and Generac's dealer support system is poorly suited to the off grid market. > > Thank you to all who replied. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 4/28/2016 10:19 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: >> I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. >> >> We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: >> >> First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). >> >> Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. >> >> The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. >> >> Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? >> >> Any suggestions appreciated! >> >> Lena Wilensky >> >> www.nunatakenergy.com >> 970-642-5554 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer: >> Cert. #R02907-17 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu May 5 07:13:21 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 07:13:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <5D037457-1122-4E38-9DD9-115386691A56@swnl.net> FYI the; Onan "Command Mobil" IS available wired in either straight 120 OR 120/240, this is the 7k derated to 6.5 when using propane. It is small but does offer a good reliable choice. It does require a stand and I will use a 90* cold air duct to move the exhaust air away from the intake. That being said this has ALWAYS been quite problematic with in the industry especially now w/ CA. ARB regs and EPA regs. odd that one can install a diesel easier then a propane gen set. > On May 4, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Lena and all, > I was watching this thread closely, as I have shared your concerns and I was hoping to hear of any new solutions. In this thread I hear of Gillette (always positively over the years that this question has come up), one 5.5kW Onan RV set (120V only and too small for all but an Outback VFX at close to sea level), and Hardy diesel units. I have nothing to add to these suggestions. > > I went out on a limb a few years ago in suggesting the Generac EcoGen, hoping that this would fill this need and restore Generac as a worthy name. I think now I have to just say "eh..." - yes, it works, but too many problems have been noted here, and Generac's dealer support system is poorly suited to the off grid market. > > Thank you to all who replied. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 4/28/2016 10:19 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: >> I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. >> >> We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: >> >> First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). >> >> Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. >> >> The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. >> >> Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? >> >> Any suggestions appreciated! >> >> Lena Wilensky >> >> www.nunatakenergy.com >> 970-642-5554 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer: >> Cert. #R02907-17 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu May 5 08:41:13 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 06:41:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <5D037457-1122-4E38-9DD9-115386691A56@swnl.net> References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <5D037457-1122-4E38-9DD9-115386691A56@swnl.net> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I do like that the Gillette generator starter battery can be effectively charged with a 20W solar panel. That's is a big bonus. There are a couple of problems though. We have seen a disproportionate failure of the rotor/stator assembly on these, much higher than Kohler, Generac and Cummins units. This is (probably) due to the high-voltage brushless design on the exciter ckt, but maybe there was a quality problem in other parts of the can. They offer pretty good, consistent tech support (seems like only one guy answers the phone), but with engine issues they punt to the engine manufacturer which is worthless. I think the best generator depends on your area and application. It also depends on who is around to offer technical support and service to your customer. We have a great industrial generator tech in our area, who gives us over-the-phone advice all of the time, but he is usually working on commercial and industrial sites and can't get to these off-grid residences in a timely manner (usually 3 months out). We decided to get certified on Kohler and Generac, not really because we wanted to, but more out of necessity for our area for our off-grid customers. Of the two, we prefer Kohler slightly because they have a better product and parts distribution system in our area. Generac has much more logical service manuals though. In general, Kohler manuals are a mess, but we've had decent luck with the 14RESA as our go to off-grid generator. We are always looking for something better though... Thanks On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 5:13 AM, Tump wrote: > FYI the; Onan "Command Mobil" IS available wired in either straight 120 > OR 120/240, this is the 7k derated to 6.5 when using propane. It is small > but does offer a good reliable choice. It does require a stand and I will > use a 90* cold air duct to move the exhaust air away from the intake. That > being said this has ALWAYS been quite problematic with in the industry > especially now w/ CA. ARB regs and EPA regs. odd that one can install a > diesel easier then a propane gen set. > > On May 4, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > Lena and all, > I was watching this thread closely, as I have shared your concerns and I > was hoping to hear of any new solutions. In this thread I hear of Gillette > (always positively over the years that this question has come up), one > 5.5kW Onan RV set (120V only and too small for all but an Outback VFX at > close to sea level), and Hardy diesel units. I have nothing to add to these > suggestions. > > I went out on a limb a few years ago in suggesting the Generac EcoGen, > hoping that this would fill this need and restore Generac as a worthy name. > I think now I have to just say "eh..." - yes, it works, but too many > problems have been noted here, and Generac's dealer support system is > poorly suited to the off grid market. > > Thank you to all who replied. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 4/28/2016 10:19 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: > > I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid > propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 > yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. > > We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and > we run into 2 main problem areas: > > First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid > use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 > year). > > Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the > "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather > kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, > but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on > all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the > Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do > battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual > switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore > since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset > computer. > > The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA > considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are > held to tougher emissions standards. > > Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these > days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES > from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going > back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how > are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? > > Any suggestions appreciated! > > Lena Wilensky > > www.nunatakenergy.com > 970-642-5554 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer: > Cert. #R02907-17 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu May 5 05:14:41 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 05:14:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> Message-ID: What about the Generac QT commercial units. Liquid cooled, enclosed, sold engines, inexpensive. For diesel, the Generac protector series meets your requirements. For mobile, generac acquired Magnum, they have some beautiful models. On May 4, 2016 20:27, "jay" wrote: Hi Allan, I was at our new Kohler dealer today. They had a trailer mounted, propane water cooled 25kw with fuel storage and sound enclosure, really nice machine, but it was $29,000 Its kind of weird that there isn’t anything in the lower sizes that is water cooled, good quality, in propane anyway. jay peltz power On May 4, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Lena and all, I was watching this thread closely, as I have shared your concerns and I was hoping to hear of any new solutions. In this thread I hear of Gillette (always positively over the years that this question has come up), one 5.5kW Onan RV set (120V only and too small for all but an Outback VFX at close to sea level), and Hardy diesel units. I have nothing to add to these suggestions. I went out on a limb a few years ago in suggesting the Generac EcoGen, hoping that this would fill this need and restore Generac as a worthy name. I think now I have to just say "eh..." - yes, it works, but too many problems have been noted here, and Generac's dealer support system is poorly suited to the off grid market. Thank you to all who replied. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* On 4/28/2016 10:19 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and we run into 2 main problem areas: First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 year). Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset computer. The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are held to tougher emissions standards. Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? Any suggestions appreciated! Lena Wilensky www.nunatakenergy.com 970-642-5554 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu May 5 09:13:40 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 07:13:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris, Yes, this is a good point. The QT series from Generac is a great machine and pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen. Is there an off-grid warranty on the QT series? On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > What about the Generac QT commercial units. Liquid cooled, enclosed, sold > engines, inexpensive. > For diesel, the Generac protector series meets your requirements. > For mobile, generac acquired Magnum, they have some beautiful models. > On May 4, 2016 20:27, "jay" wrote: > > Hi Allan, > > I was at our new Kohler dealer today. They had a trailer mounted, propane > water cooled 25kw with fuel storage and sound enclosure, really nice > machine, but it was $29,000 > > Its kind of weird that there isn’t anything in the lower sizes that is > water cooled, good quality, in propane anyway. > > jay > > peltz power > > On May 4, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > Lena and all, > I was watching this thread closely, as I have shared your concerns and I > was hoping to hear of any new solutions. In this thread I hear of Gillette > (always positively over the years that this question has come up), one > 5.5kW Onan RV set (120V only and too small for all but an Outback VFX at > close to sea level), and Hardy diesel units. I have nothing to add to these > suggestions. > > I went out on a limb a few years ago in suggesting the Generac EcoGen, > hoping that this would fill this need and restore Generac as a worthy name. > I think now I have to just say "eh..." - yes, it works, but too many > problems have been noted here, and Generac's dealer support system is > poorly suited to the off grid market. > > Thank you to all who replied. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 4/28/2016 10:19 AM, Lena Wilensky wrote: > > I did some searches on the list for what folks are doing for off-grid > propane generators these days, but all the threads I found were from 5-6 > yrs ago, so I was hoping to get some more current info. > > We're looking for about a 10kw+ propane unit (big derate at altitude), and > we run into 2 main problem areas: > > First is the warranty - either there are no units warranteed for off-grid > use, or there are only a couple of models and the warranty is short (1 > year). > > Second, and perhaps larger, is all the loads that now come with the > "off-grid" units. The computer takes some, but mostly the "cold weather > kit" aka carb heater must be installed in our climate (to actually start, > but also for warrantee), and it's set up to be on a thermostat (read: "on > all the time from Nov-April" here in the mountains). According to the > Kohler tech support it takes a steady 50W. We have set up older units to do > battery charge only during the day, and have the carb heater on a manual > switch, but it sounds like we can't really get at these circuits anymore > since they're all pre-configured and pre-wired in the guts of the genset > computer. > > The Kohler and Onan support folks said both these issues are due to EPA > considering off-grid use as prime power as opposed to standby, so they are > held to tougher emissions standards. > > Whatever the reasons, we're wondering what people are actually doing these > days - still the standby units they kind-of warrantee for off-grid? 12RES > from Kohler and the 13kw unit from Onan? Generac? Have folks been going > back to the smaller gas units from Honda and running them more? And how > are cold climate folks dealing with the heating issue? > > Any suggestions appreciated! > > Lena Wilensky > > www.nunatakenergy.com > 970-642-5554 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer: > Cert. #R02907-17 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 5 10:02:40 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 07:02:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> Message-ID: Question to all the generator techs out there. I’ve always been told that you don’t want a diesel to be sitting for long periods. Fuel can go bad, all that sort of thing. Vs propane which doesn’t care. Is that true? Or in mild climates will a monthly must run be OK? Thanks jay > On May 5, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Chris, > > Yes, this is a good point. The QT series from Generac is a great machine and pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen. Is there an off-grid warranty on the QT series? > > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu May 5 11:11:29 2016 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:11:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> Message-ID: <30FB157F-A70B-479F-945F-3D2B68AB378D@gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, I have been following this thread with interest ever since Lena started it a few days ago. I don't have a whole lot to add but I thought I would chime in. I struggle with the same issues I've heard from others on the list of needing good quality, smaller (8-15kW) generator options for off-grid. My interpretation of the consensus is that there is a lot of stuff available in the higher dollar, commercial category, but for smaller gensets the options still seem limited and somewhat unsatisfactory. I have been using Generac EcoGen units for the last 5 years, and they have been generally ok, though in my opinion the quality is not there. In addition, when I finally had a major failure on a unit that required warranty service, the process of getting help from Generac with that was a nightmare. If not for the generous help of several folks on this list, it would have been even worse. As Allan pointed out upthread, Generac is simply not set up to deal with the needs of Wrenches who support off-grid installations. This is especially true for remote locations. For those of you who have been using the 14RES from Kohler, do they reduce the warranty period for Off-Grid installations? -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu May 5 12:36:23 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:36:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <30FB157F-A70B-479F-945F-3D2B68AB378D@gmail.com> References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> <30FB157F-A70B-479F-945F-3D2B68AB378D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <73A0553B-1ACA-4FCC-9DFB-597623AA372B@gmail.com> I've been using Cummins RS 22's, where a propane fuel source is dictated (my preference is diesel). They are 20kw, liquid cooled, 1800rpm, and available without enclosures and cost a little less than 10K. A little bit larger than what we are talking about, and usually oversized for a lot of my applications, but I refuse to deal with disposable generators and the crappy support that comes with them. Cummins has always been great to work with. Generac or Kholer have great support when your installing 500kw gensets in heavy commercial or industrial applications! Michael > On May 5, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Luke Christy wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > I have been following this thread with interest ever since Lena started it a few days ago. > I don't have a whole lot to add but I thought I would chime in. > > I struggle with the same issues I've heard from others on the list of needing good quality, smaller (8-15kW) generator options for off-grid. My interpretation of the consensus is that there is a lot of stuff available in the higher dollar, commercial category, but for smaller gensets the options still seem limited and somewhat unsatisfactory. I have been using Generac EcoGen units for the last 5 years, and they have been generally ok, though in my opinion the quality is not there. In addition, when I finally had a major failure on a unit that required warranty service, the process of getting help from Generac with that was a nightmare. If not for the generous help of several folks on this list, it would have been even worse. As Allan pointed out upthread, Generac is simply not set up to deal with the needs of Wrenches who support off-grid installations. This is especially true for remote locations. > > For those of you who have been using the 14RES from Kohler, do they reduce the warranty period for Off-Grid installations? > > -Luke > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Thu May 5 11:37:08 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:37:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Diesel Generators In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004101d1a6e3$fceea3e0$f6cbeba0$@com> Diesel engines are high compression (500-600 PSI) machines, therefore: 1. Moisture must be kept to a minimum to prevent ferro-oxy (rust) damage to rings & cylinder walls. 2. Fuel is subject to gelling if not correctly treated for low temps. 3. There are certain types of slime that will grow over time in untreated fuel resulting in clogged filters and plugged injectors. 4. Water in the fuel is a really bad thing, & fuel filters need water separators. 5. Fuel tanks absorb more moisture if not kept full; this is a function of any atmospheric pressure & temperature changes. 6. Ice up in a fuel lime is a mess to deal with. There is nothing like running a torch on a copper line full of a combustible fuel at -20°F on a starry night, it’s so romantic. 7. Low temps mean preheating or glow plugs and a warm up period before loading up a cold engine. That said if you of your client is willing to put up with a diesel or is in a mild climate, diesels do produce the most watts per gallon. They are just not for everyone. I compared the cost of diesel to LPG for my next backup generator off grid home in ID. Diesel Off-road was $3.60 per gallon & LPG was $2.25/ gallon. This was a year ago and at a $1.35/ gallon difference, & the diesel route was not the most economical way to go. I would be curious as to what the difference is in other areas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 8:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? Question to all the generator techs out there. I’ve always been told that you don’t want a diesel to be sitting for long periods. Fuel can go bad, all that sort of thing. Vs propane which doesn’t care. Is that true? Or in mild climates will a monthly must run be OK? Thanks jay On May 5, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Chris, Yes, this is a good point. The QT series from Generac is a great machine and pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen. Is there an off-grid warranty on the QT series? On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu May 5 11:52:01 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:52:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <30FB157F-A70B-479F-945F-3D2B68AB378D@gmail.com> References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> <30FB157F-A70B-479F-945F-3D2B68AB378D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006501d1a6e6$10e11390$32a33ab0$@com> Luke, I concur due to EPA regs we have lost appropriately sized 6-14 KW efficient, 1800 RPM (or slower), water cooled long life generators. There is business opportunity here all you gear heads ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Luke Christy Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 9:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? Hi Wrenches, I have been following this thread with interest ever since Lena started it a few days ago. I don't have a whole lot to add but I thought I would chime in. I struggle with the same issues I've heard from others on the list of needing good quality, smaller (8-15kW) generator options for off-grid. My interpretation of the consensus is that there is a lot of stuff available in the higher dollar, commercial category, but for smaller gensets the options still seem limited and somewhat unsatisfactory. I have been using Generac EcoGen units for the last 5 years, and they have been generally ok, though in my opinion the quality is not there. In addition, when I finally had a major failure on a unit that required warranty service, the process of getting help from Generac with that was a nightmare. If not for the generous help of several folks on this list, it would have been even worse. As Allan pointed out upthread, Generac is simply not set up to deal with the needs of Wrenches who support off-grid installations. This is especially true for remote locations. For those of you who have been using the 14RES from Kohler, do they reduce the warranty period for Off-Grid installations? -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu May 5 12:48:59 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 12:48:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is the major disadvantage of diesel over propane. Diesel can be corrupted with bacteria, water through condensation and algae. Fuel polishing is the process to clean the diesel and remove the contaminants, the equipment is expensive so it is normally done as a service. If the fuel goes bad, it can ruin the injectors and pump, requiring a very expensive service. Propane dissipates in the engine, and propane stores indefinitely without degradation. http://criticalfueltech.com/faq.html On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:02 AM, jay wrote: > Question to all the generator techs out there. > > I’ve always been told that you don’t want a diesel to be sitting for long > periods. Fuel can go bad, all that sort of thing. > Vs propane which doesn’t care. > > Is that true? > Or in mild climates will a monthly must run be OK? > > Thanks > jay > > > On May 5, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Chris, > > Yes, this is a good point. The QT series from Generac is a great machine > and pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen. > Is there an off-grid warranty on the QT series? > > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu May 5 12:51:34 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 12:51:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> Message-ID: I haven't heard anyone discuss Generac's diesel Protector series. Has anyone tried them? We have a couple of customers with them, they are happy. On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > This is the major disadvantage of diesel over propane. > Diesel can be corrupted with bacteria, water through condensation and > algae. Fuel polishing is the process to clean the diesel and remove the > contaminants, the equipment is expensive so it is normally done as a > service. > If the fuel goes bad, it can ruin the injectors and pump, requiring a very > expensive service. > Propane dissipates in the engine, and propane stores indefinitely without > degradation. > > http://criticalfueltech.com/faq.html > > > > > > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:02 AM, jay wrote: > >> Question to all the generator techs out there. >> >> I’ve always been told that you don’t want a diesel to be sitting for long >> periods. Fuel can go bad, all that sort of thing. >> Vs propane which doesn’t care. >> >> Is that true? >> Or in mild climates will a monthly must run be OK? >> >> Thanks >> jay >> >> >> On May 5, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >> Chris, >> >> Yes, this is a good point. The QT series from Generac is a great machine >> and pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen. >> Is there an off-grid warranty on the QT series? >> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason > > wrote: >> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu May 5 13:34:06 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:34:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <30FB157F-A70B-479F-945F-3D2B68AB378D@gmail.com> References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> <30FB157F-A70B-479F-945F-3D2B68AB378D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Aurora generators can be used in all off grid applications with full warranty. http://www.auroragenerators.com/generators Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 5, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Luke Christy wrote: Hi Wrenches, I have been following this thread with interest ever since Lena started it a few days ago. I don't have a whole lot to add but I thought I would chime in. I struggle with the same issues I've heard from others on the list of needing good quality, smaller (8-15kW) generator options for off-grid. My interpretation of the consensus is that there is a lot of stuff available in the higher dollar, commercial category, but for smaller gensets the options still seem limited and somewhat unsatisfactory. I have been using Generac EcoGen units for the last 5 years, and they have been generally ok, though in my opinion the quality is not there. In addition, when I finally had a major failure on a unit that required warranty service, the process of getting help from Generac with that was a nightmare. If not for the generous help of several folks on this list, it would have been even worse. As Allan pointed out upthread, Generac is simply not set up to deal with the needs of Wrenches who support off-grid installations. This is especially true for remote locations. For those of you who have been using the 14RES from Kohler, do they reduce the warranty period for Off-Grid installations? -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dave at independentpowerllc.com Thu May 5 14:21:12 2016 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 14:21:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c401d1a6fa$e7a94500$b6fbcf00$@com> For off grid systems with back up charging powered by diesel, what is the best fuel treatment to add to a 275 gallon diesel fuel tank that is sitting about half full? The summer use of the diesel gen is typically very low until November on a properly sized PV system here in Vermont. Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:49 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? This is the major disadvantage of diesel over propane. Diesel can be corrupted with bacteria, water through condensation and algae. Fuel polishing is the process to clean the diesel and remove the contaminants, the equipment is expensive so it is normally done as a service. If the fuel goes bad, it can ruin the injectors and pump, requiring a very expensive service. Propane dissipates in the engine, and propane stores indefinitely without degradation. http://criticalfueltech.com/faq.html On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:02 AM, jay wrote: Question to all the generator techs out there. I’ve always been told that you don’t want a diesel to be sitting for long periods. Fuel can go bad, all that sort of thing. Vs propane which doesn’t care. Is that true? Or in mild climates will a monthly must run be OK? Thanks jay On May 5, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Chris, Yes, this is a good point. The QT series from Generac is a great machine and pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen. Is there an off-grid warranty on the QT series? On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu May 5 14:35:01 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 14:35:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> <30FB157F-A70B-479F-945F-3D2B68AB378D@gmail.com> Message-ID: That 9KW Aurora generator is almost exactly the same unit I provided to a customer of mine here, built in China to my specs. The customer is using is as a sole power source for a restaurant, running it at about 100% to 110% load 18 hours a day for two years now without issue. The Perkins engine is a lovely unit. On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 1:34 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Aurora generators can be used in all off grid applications with full > warranty. > > http://www.auroragenerators.com/generators > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > On May 5, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Luke Christy wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > I have been following this thread with interest ever since Lena started it > a few days ago. > I don't have a whole lot to add but I thought I would chime in. > > I struggle with the same issues I've heard from others on the list of > needing good quality, smaller (8-15kW) generator options for off-grid. My > interpretation of the consensus is that there is a lot of stuff available > in the higher dollar, commercial category, but for smaller gensets the > options still seem limited and somewhat unsatisfactory. I have been using > Generac EcoGen units for the last 5 years, and they have been generally ok, > though in my opinion the quality is not there. In addition, when I finally > had a major failure on a unit that required warranty service, the process > of getting help from Generac with that was a nightmare. If not for the > generous help of several folks on this list, it would have been even worse. > As Allan pointed out upthread, Generac is simply not set up to deal with > the needs of Wrenches who support off-grid installations. This is > especially true for remote locations. > > For those of you who have been using the 14RES from Kohler, do they reduce > the warranty period for Off-Grid installations? > > -Luke > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Thu May 5 17:04:37 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (Bob Ellison) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 17:04:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <01c401d1a6fa$e7a94500$b6fbcf00$@com> References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> <01c401d1a6fa$e7a94500$b6fbcf00$@com> Message-ID: <005901d1a711$bec6fe90$3c54fbb0$@gmail.com> I have been using a lot of additives in testing. Best so far is PRI D for diesel with PRI G for gas This is what the treat locomotives and freighters with for long term storage. Very concentrated, an ounce treats something like 16 gallons. Best to treat when filling and keep tank full at least while not being used. Fill it and park it so to speak. The full tank keeps condensation from forming so rapidly. 2nd would be K 100 MD and MG it has long term storage additives the regular K 100 does not have. Good product but the PRI G/D is better Stabil has not impressed me Anybody storing fuel wants to be filling the tanks and treating them NOW, it will probably not be this low in the fall. It is nice to pick up the chain saw, mower or tiller and have it start with no major headaches after a year layover! Just from my testing and experience, Bob Ellison From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 2:21 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? For off grid systems with back up charging powered by diesel, what is the best fuel treatment to add to a 275 gallon diesel fuel tank that is sitting about half full? The summer use of the diesel gen is typically very low until November on a properly sized PV system here in Vermont. Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:49 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? This is the major disadvantage of diesel over propane. Diesel can be corrupted with bacteria, water through condensation and algae. Fuel polishing is the process to clean the diesel and remove the contaminants, the equipment is expensive so it is normally done as a service. If the fuel goes bad, it can ruin the injectors and pump, requiring a very expensive service. Propane dissipates in the engine, and propane stores indefinitely without degradation. http://criticalfueltech.com/faq.html On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:02 AM, jay > wrote: Question to all the generator techs out there. I’ve always been told that you don’t want a diesel to be sitting for long periods. Fuel can go bad, all that sort of thing. Vs propane which doesn’t care. Is that true? Or in mild climates will a monthly must run be OK? Thanks jay On May 5, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Chris, Yes, this is a good point. The QT series from Generac is a great machine and pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen. Is there an off-grid warranty on the QT series? On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7596 / Virus Database: 4565/12169 - Release Date: 05/05/16 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri May 6 08:22:01 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 06:22:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: <005901d1a711$bec6fe90$3c54fbb0$@gmail.com> References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> <01c401d1a6fa$e7a94500$b6fbcf00$@com> <005901d1a711$bec6fe90$3c54fbb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Luke, Speaking to your questions regarding the 14 RESA; yes, the warranty term is reduced for off-grid use. It goes to 1000 hr or 18 month whichever comes first. We've had decent luck with these units, they are less expensive than the 6kW EcoGen. We've had one controller fail and one motor failure, but that machine was ran very hard and neglected. Kohler is set up much differently than Generac, they defer tech support to the master distributor who sells you the unit. In Colorado, the master distributor is EC Power out of Denver and they do a decent job having parts and generators in stock. I think that you are supposed to be Kohler certified to do warranty work, but Kohler is more relaxed (and less organized) than Generac so I bet there may be some flexibility with that, especially if no one is certified in your area. With this being said, there is nothing great about this machine, and I'm looking for something better. On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Bob Ellison wrote: > I have been using a lot of additives in testing. > > > > Best so far is PRI D for diesel with PRI G for gas This is what the treat > locomotives and freighters with for long term storage. Very concentrated, > an ounce treats something like 16 gallons. > > Best to treat when filling and keep tank full at least while not being > used. Fill it and park it so to speak. The full tank keeps condensation > from forming so rapidly. > > > > 2nd would be K 100 MD and MG it has long term storage additives the > regular K 100 does not have. Good product but the PRI G/D is better > > > > Stabil has not impressed me > > > > Anybody storing fuel wants to be filling the tanks and treating them NOW, > it will probably not be this low in the fall. > > > > It is nice to pick up the chain saw, mower or tiller and have it start > with no major headaches after a year layover! > > > > Just from my testing and experience, > > > > Bob Ellison > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dave > *Sent:* Thursday, May 05, 2016 2:21 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? > > > > For off grid systems with back up charging powered by diesel, what is the > best fuel treatment to add to a 275 gallon diesel fuel tank that is sitting > about half full? > > > > The summer use of the diesel gen is typically very low until November on a > properly sized PV system here in Vermont. > > > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 cell > > 802-888-4917 home > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:49 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? > > > > This is the major disadvantage of diesel over propane. > > Diesel can be corrupted with bacteria, water through condensation and > algae. Fuel polishing is the process to clean the diesel and remove the > contaminants, the equipment is expensive so it is normally done as a > service. > > If the fuel goes bad, it can ruin the injectors and pump, requiring a very > expensive service. > > Propane dissipates in the engine, and propane stores indefinitely without > degradation. > > > > http://criticalfueltech.com/faq.html > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:02 AM, jay wrote: > > Question to all the generator techs out there. > > > > I’ve always been told that you don’t want a diesel to be sitting for long > periods. Fuel can go bad, all that sort of thing. > > Vs propane which doesn’t care. > > > > Is that true? > > Or in mild climates will a monthly must run be OK? > > > > Thanks > > jay > > > > > > On May 5, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > > > Chris, > > > > Yes, this is a good point. The QT series from Generac is a great machine > and pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen. > Is there an off-grid warranty on the QT series? > > > > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Mason > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Design Engineer > > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > > www.cometsolar.com > > 264.235.5670 > > 869.662.5670 > > Skype: netconcepts > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2016.0.7596 / Virus Database: 4565/12169 - Release Date: 05/05/16 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri May 6 08:27:01 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 06:27:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? In-Reply-To: References: <572A31A2.3070305@sindelarsolar.com> <420C6608-FB87-40A4-8AEF-F2EDF52A4219@gmail.com> <01c401d1a6fa$e7a94500$b6fbcf00$@com> <005901d1a711$bec6fe90$3c54fbb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Luke, Another thing about the Kohler 14 RESA that I like is that you don't have to go back after 20-30 hours of run-time to adjust the valves. That's a big bonus for an off-grid client that lives a ways out. On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 6:22 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Luke, > > Speaking to your questions regarding the 14 RESA; yes, the warranty term > is reduced for off-grid use. It goes to 1000 hr or 18 month whichever > comes first. We've had decent luck with these units, they are less > expensive than the 6kW EcoGen. We've had one controller fail and one motor > failure, but that machine was ran very hard and neglected. > > Kohler is set up much differently than Generac, they defer tech support to > the master distributor who sells you the unit. In Colorado, the master > distributor is EC Power out of Denver and they do a decent job having parts > and generators in stock. I think that you are supposed to be Kohler > certified to do warranty work, but Kohler is more relaxed (and less > organized) than Generac so I bet there may be some flexibility with that, > especially if no one is certified in your area. > > With this being said, there is nothing great about this machine, and I'm > looking for something better. > > > > > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Bob Ellison wrote: > >> I have been using a lot of additives in testing. >> >> >> >> Best so far is PRI D for diesel with PRI G for gas This is what the treat >> locomotives and freighters with for long term storage. Very concentrated, >> an ounce treats something like 16 gallons. >> >> Best to treat when filling and keep tank full at least while not being >> used. Fill it and park it so to speak. The full tank keeps condensation >> from forming so rapidly. >> >> >> >> 2nd would be K 100 MD and MG it has long term storage additives the >> regular K 100 does not have. Good product but the PRI G/D is better >> >> >> >> Stabil has not impressed me >> >> >> >> Anybody storing fuel wants to be filling the tanks and treating them NOW, >> it will probably not be this low in the fall. >> >> >> >> It is nice to pick up the chain saw, mower or tiller and have it start >> with no major headaches after a year layover! >> >> >> >> Just from my testing and experience, >> >> >> >> Bob Ellison >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Dave >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 05, 2016 2:21 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? >> >> >> >> For off grid systems with back up charging powered by diesel, what is the >> best fuel treatment to add to a 275 gallon diesel fuel tank that is sitting >> about half full? >> >> >> >> The summer use of the diesel gen is typically very low until November on >> a properly sized PV system here in Vermont. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> David Palumbo >> >> Independent Power LLC >> >> 462 Solar Way Drive >> >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> >> 802-371-8678 cell >> >> 802-888-4917 home >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:49 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid generator update? >> >> >> >> This is the major disadvantage of diesel over propane. >> >> Diesel can be corrupted with bacteria, water through condensation and >> algae. Fuel polishing is the process to clean the diesel and remove the >> contaminants, the equipment is expensive so it is normally done as a >> service. >> >> If the fuel goes bad, it can ruin the injectors and pump, requiring a >> very expensive service. >> >> Propane dissipates in the engine, and propane stores indefinitely without >> degradation. >> >> >> >> http://criticalfueltech.com/faq.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:02 AM, jay wrote: >> >> Question to all the generator techs out there. >> >> >> >> I’ve always been told that you don’t want a diesel to be sitting for long >> periods. Fuel can go bad, all that sort of thing. >> >> Vs propane which doesn’t care. >> >> >> >> Is that true? >> >> Or in mild climates will a monthly must run be OK? >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 5, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >> >> >> Chris, >> >> >> >> Yes, this is a good point. The QT series from Generac is a great machine >> and pricing is better than any other machine in that size that I've seen. >> Is there an off-grid warranty on the QT series? >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Chris Mason >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Mason >> >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Solar Design Engineer >> >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> >> 264.235.5670 >> >> 869.662.5670 >> >> Skype: netconcepts >> ------------------------------ >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2016.0.7596 / Virus Database: 4565/12169 - Release Date: 05/05/16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri May 6 14:41:54 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 18:41:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Turbine Replacement Message-ID: Hello Does anyone have a recommended replacement turbine for a Whisper 100 or whisper 200? Would be best to have something fit the existing tower, 2.5" sch40, if possible. Thanks in advance! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 6 15:07:39 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:07:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Turbine Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <964B8C28-19B4-4DA5-8639-13B6779D382C@starlightsolar.com> How about another Whisper? http://luminousrenewable.com/whisper200.php I don’t know of much else in that size and price range. Thank you, Larry Crutcher On May 6, 2016, at 11:41 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Hello Does anyone have a recommended replacement turbine for a Whisper 100 or whisper 200? Would be best to have something fit the existing tower, 2.5" sch40, if possible. Thanks in advance! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri May 6 15:21:24 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 13:21:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Turbine Replacement In-Reply-To: <964B8C28-19B4-4DA5-8639-13B6779D382C@starlightsolar.com> References: <964B8C28-19B4-4DA5-8639-13B6779D382C@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I believe these days it's Bergey, Pika or Luminous. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > How about another Whisper? http://luminousrenewable.com/whisper200.php > I don’t know of much else in that size and price range. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > > > > > On May 6, 2016, at 11:41 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > > Hello > Does anyone have a recommended replacement turbine for a Whisper 100 or > whisper 200? > Would be best to have something fit the existing tower, 2.5" sch40, if > possible. > > Thanks in advance! > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Sat May 7 11:57:27 2016 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 11:57:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Turbine Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've had good luck with the Bergey XL.1. You'd have to have an adapter fabricated for the top of the pole. On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Hello > Does anyone have a recommended replacement turbine for a Whisper 100 or > whisper 200? > Would be best to have something fit the existing tower, 2.5" sch40, if > possible. > > Thanks in advance! > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon May 9 13:10:39 2016 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 17:10:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> Message-ID: <437a388af2004fd69ae97e7eec402128@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Fellow Wrenches Due to customer feedback OutBack decided to automatically enable the Inverters Ac Charger if the Mate(3) called for an AGS (gen run) condition. The general opinion here is if the gen is running you might as well allow it to charge your batteries. Before we did this there were instances of generators running for hours/days before the end user discovered he had set the charger to OFF. That being said if charging by the inverter is not desired during a Gen run there are several methods which will allow charging to be disabled. The method you use will more than likely depend on your situation. If you wish to stop charging for the current gen run simply turn the Charge Off after the gen is running. On the Mate3 press the Charger Button select OFF. On the Mate and Mate2 press the AC Input button three times the Charger can be turned OFF there. If it is necessary to turn the charger off on a more permanent basis there are a couple of different approaches. One method is to go to the inverter charger menu and set the absorb and float timers to zero. Another method and perhaps the easiest would be to change the gen type to DC or None. Of these two I would suggest DC as the preferred choice. After setting the Inverter Charger to Off follow the path as described below On the Mate3 press the LOCK button Enter 141 Select Settings then System then System Information change Gen Type to DC or None. If the inverters charger is disabled it will remain so when AGS calls for a gen run. On the Mate or Mate2 In the AGS program menu select DC gen and the Auto Charge feature will be negated. The above will work if the gen run is caused by the following AGS triggers. Load Start, Must Run, Generator Exercise If the gen run condition is a Voltage Start the trigger to turn the gen off is the batteries must reach the Absorb Voltage for the Absorb Time. If the gen run condition is SOC the trigger to turn the gen off is the batteries must reach the end SOC set point. These points may be unachievable with the inverters charger set to OFF. If this is the case lack of fuel may be the gen stop reason. Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darren Emmons Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 10:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question When the generator is auto started, the inverter's charger will be enabled. After the generator is stopped, the inverter's charger will be returned to the mode before the generator started. The logic is if you are running the generator the Inverter's charger should be enabled. You could lower the charger AC limit to 0 Amps. 08:00 Inverter charger OFF 10:00 Must run start -> charger ON 11:00 Must run stop -> charger OFF >Darren On 04/27/2016 05:31 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I've got a problem that outback tech hasn't been able to figure out. > > off grid system > mate 3 > quad stacked VFX 3648 > > The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. > > The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator he doesn't want the chargers to operate. > OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. > > But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. > > Outback says that shouldn't be happening, but it is. > > Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Mon May 9 13:48:27 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 10:48:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: <437a388af2004fd69ae97e7eec402128@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> <437a388af2004fd69ae97e7eec402128@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Mr. Tuss: I have had many customers suffer due to the exact problems described below. That is, a generator running but no charging happening. This is due to either inadvertent changes in the AC Drop mode or Global Charge Mode settings. I think it was a big mistake on the standard Mate to put the Charge Control Mode and the AC Drop menus in so easily accessible a location as the AC dedicated button menu. This is the menu you need to access frequently to manually start a generator. The Charge Control Mode and the AC screens are very similar in appearance to the generator start menus and it is very common for users to engage the drop mode or turn charging off inadvertently. I have had customers ruin expensive battery sets with this mistake. I approached Outback to suggest they rectify this problem with a firmware update. My suggestion was to relocate these functions behind the installer password. I was told this change was not possible due to lack of memory on the Mate hardware. I find this hard to believe as this change would not add any functionality but rather move the aforementioned screens to behind the password protection. There would be not net gain in functionality. It is my belief that Outback does not realize the seriousness of this situation and the implications of this flaw in the design. Mr. Tuss, what is your opinion on this issue? Is it truly impossible to fix this design flaw? Thank you for your participation in the Wrenches forum and in advance for your reply to my questions. Sincerely, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lones Tuss Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 10:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question Hello Fellow Wrenches Due to customer feedback OutBack decided to automatically enable the Inverters Ac Charger if the Mate(3) called for an AGS (gen run) condition. The general opinion here is if the gen is running you might as well allow it to charge your batteries. Before we did this there were instances of generators running for hours/days before the end user discovered he had set the charger to OFF. That being said if charging by the inverter is not desired during a Gen run there are several methods which will allow charging to be disabled. The method you use will more than likely depend on your situation. If you wish to stop charging for the current gen run simply turn the Charge Off after the gen is running. On the Mate3 press the Charger Button select OFF. On the Mate and Mate2 press the AC Input button three times the Charger can be turned OFF there. If it is necessary to turn the charger off on a more permanent basis there are a couple of different approaches. One method is to go to the inverter charger menu and set the absorb and float timers to zero. Another method and perhaps the easiest would be to change the gen type to DC or None. Of these two I would suggest DC as the preferred choice. After setting the Inverter Charger to Off follow the path as described below On the Mate3 press the LOCK button Enter 141 Select Settings then System then System Information change Gen Type to DC or None. If the inverters charger is disabled it will remain so when AGS calls for a gen run. On the Mate or Mate2 In the AGS program menu select DC gen and the Auto Charge feature will be negated. The above will work if the gen run is caused by the following AGS triggers. Load Start, Must Run, Generator Exercise If the gen run condition is a Voltage Start the trigger to turn the gen off is the batteries must reach the Absorb Voltage for the Absorb Time. If the gen run condition is SOC the trigger to turn the gen off is the batteries must reach the end SOC set point. These points may be unachievable with the inverters charger set to OFF. If this is the case lack of fuel may be the gen stop reason. Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Darren Emmons Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 10:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question When the generator is auto started, the inverter's charger will be enabled. After the generator is stopped, the inverter's charger will be returned to the mode before the generator started. The logic is if you are running the generator the Inverter's charger should be enabled. You could lower the charger AC limit to 0 Amps. 08:00 Inverter charger OFF 10:00 Must run start -> charger ON 11:00 Must run stop -> charger OFF >Darren On 04/27/2016 05:31 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I've got a problem that outback tech hasn't been able to figure out. > > off grid system > mate 3 > quad stacked VFX 3648 > > The generator is set to specific start/stop daily timer. This works fine. > > The client has plenty of solar for the day, and when he runs his generator he doesn't want the chargers to operate. > OK so just hit charge off, and yes the chargers will turn off. > > But next day, genny starts up, and the chargers come back on as well. > > Outback says that shouldn't be happening, but it is. > > Anybody have this issue or know of a fix? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at jordansolar.net Mon May 9 15:48:16 2016 From: travis at jordansolar.net (Travis Jordan) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 13:48:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming question Message-ID: I resonate with Lonus' point on generator run time without the charger being on, I see no point... One of my many "oops" stories on this topic: I set up a customer on DC gen to "solve" a problem about ten years ago in the mountains of N Idaho and the following scenario occurred: 1) The generator charger got accidentally turned off by a "helpful" caretaker trying to reset an error on the Mate after he started the generator because the batteries were low. 2) The panels were covered with snow, 3) The customer was gone for the winter and the system was unattended 4) The DC Gen option did not have "max run time" 5) Two weeks of incessant run time later the generator got turned off manually by the caretaker, the batteries were still not charged, and the LARGE fuel tank was almost empty. Point learned? Think through a few scenarios when I deviate from "normal" Outback generator settings in the future! This story has obvious connections to the post earlier about what to do with batteries when the system is unattended, I followed that discussion intently and agree with what has been said... I only offer this in reference to the generator charger discussion. Travis Jordan travis at jordansolar.net travis at mtsolar.us -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Mon May 9 16:02:14 2016 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 16:02:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer Message-ID: <00f801d1aa2d$aea34180$0be9c480$@com> Wrenches, I have a customer looking for a tow behind solar trailer with the following specs: Major features should include . 120/240Vac output . sealed Out Back inverters (because of moist and possibly dusty conditions) . approx. 12,000 Watt Hours of rated battery storage. Thought is that (8) AGM 6v 250AH batteries would work . approx. 1,500W PV Array I am requesting a quote from Patriot Solar (Albion, MI) http://patriotsolargroup.com/products/solar-parent/solar-child/solar-trailer s-2-4kw/ Does anyone know of other trailers that are in this class, new or used? Hopefully cost effective units? Something like the tow behinds that Jason Szumlanski made at AMP Systems would be appropriate. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 9 16:34:05 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 16:34:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer In-Reply-To: <00f801d1aa2d$aea34180$0be9c480$@com> References: <00f801d1aa2d$aea34180$0be9c480$@com> Message-ID: I responded privately to David, but just to let the group know, I don't sell these anymore. Liability insurance drove the price up too high, and the limited market was not attractive. The units I did build worked GREAT and I just recently sold serial #0001 from 2009 and it was still in great working order. That unit had Rolls S-530s and a Magnum inverter with some Kyocera panels that just happened to fit the roof perfectly. ​Jason Szumlanski​ On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Dave wrote: > Wrenches, > > > > I have a customer looking for a tow behind solar trailer with the > following specs: > > Major features should include > > · 120/240Vac output > > · sealed Out Back inverters (because of moist and possibly dusty > conditions) > > · approx. 12,000 Watt Hours of rated battery storage. Thought is > that (8) AGM 6v 250AH batteries would work > > · approx. 1,500W PV Array > > > > I am requesting a quote from Patriot Solar (Albion, MI) > http://patriotsolargroup.com/products/solar-parent/solar-child/solar-trailers-2-4kw/ > > > > Does anyone know of other trailers that are in this class, new or used? > Hopefully cost effective units? Something like the tow behinds that Jason > Szumlanski made at AMP Systems would be appropriate. > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 cell > > 802-888-4917 home > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon May 9 17:34:24 2016 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 21:34:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer In-Reply-To: <00f801d1aa2d$aea34180$0be9c480$@com> References: <00f801d1aa2d$aea34180$0be9c480$@com> Message-ID: <9fd858e43d3b4c88bcaf94ab6ca6a3a7@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello sir You might also want to look into http://www.mobilesolarpower.net/ I hope this helps Take Care Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 1:02 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer Wrenches, I have a customer looking for a tow behind solar trailer with the following specs: Major features should include * 120/240Vac output * sealed Out Back inverters (because of moist and possibly dusty conditions) * approx. 12,000 Watt Hours of rated battery storage. Thought is that (8) AGM 6v 250AH batteries would work * approx. 1,500W PV Array I am requesting a quote from Patriot Solar (Albion, MI) http://patriotsolargroup.com/products/solar-parent/solar-child/solar-trailers-2-4kw/ Does anyone know of other trailers that are in this class, new or used? Hopefully cost effective units? Something like the tow behinds that Jason Szumlanski made at AMP Systems would be appropriate. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon May 9 17:55:57 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 17:55:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer In-Reply-To: <9fd858e43d3b4c88bcaf94ab6ca6a3a7@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <00f801d1aa2d$aea34180$0be9c480$@com> <9fd858e43d3b4c88bcaf94ab6ca6a3a7@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: Hey Jason, Sorry to hear that. Any chance you can share a couple of pix so we can build it ourselves? What were the trailer dimensions? Thanks, Christopher On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Lones Tuss wrote: > Hello sir > > You might also want to look into > > http://www.mobilesolarpower.net/ > > I hope this helps > > Take Care > > > > Lones Tuss > > Applications Engineer > > OutBack Power Technologies > > 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 > > 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell > > www.outbackpower.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dave > *Sent:* Monday, May 09, 2016 1:02 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer > > > > Wrenches, > > > > I have a customer looking for a tow behind solar trailer with the > following specs: > > Major features should include > > · 120/240Vac output > > · sealed Out Back inverters (because of moist and possibly dusty > conditions) > > · approx. 12,000 Watt Hours of rated battery storage. Thought is > that (8) AGM 6v 250AH batteries would work > > · approx. 1,500W PV Array > > > > I am requesting a quote from Patriot Solar (Albion, MI) > http://patriotsolargroup.com/products/solar-parent/solar-child/solar-trailers-2-4kw/ > > > > Does anyone know of other trailers that are in this class, new or used? > Hopefully cost effective units? Something like the tow behinds that Jason > Szumlanski made at AMP Systems would be appropriate. > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 cell > > 802-888-4917 home > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue May 10 03:08:51 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 21:08:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer Message-ID: <614l9sr8didtokdhpyfawsoe.1462848461684@email.android.com> WrenchesI have built 5 solar event trailers, for contractors, promotors, ect. We can talk off line. call if interested 7078882701Jerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Schaefer Date: 5/9/2016 11:55 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer Hey Jason,Sorry to hear that. Any chance you can share a couple of pix so we can build it ourselves? What were the trailer dimensions?Thanks,Christopher On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Lones Tuss wrote: Hello sir You might also want to look into http://www.mobilesolarpower.net/ I hope this helps Take Care   Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com   From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 1:02 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer   Wrenches,   I have a customer looking for a tow behind solar trailer with the following specs: Major features should include ·         120/240Vac output ·         sealed Out Back inverters (because of moist and possibly dusty conditions) ·         approx. 12,000 Watt Hours of rated battery storage.  Thought is that (8) AGM 6v 250AH batteries would work ·         approx. 1,500W PV Array   I am requesting a quote from Patriot Solar (Albion, MI) http://patriotsolargroup.com/products/solar-parent/solar-child/solar-trailers-2-4kw/   Does anyone know of other trailers that are in this class, new or used? Hopefully cost effective units? Something like the tow behinds that Jason Szumlanski made at AMP Systems would be appropriate.   David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue May 10 05:56:04 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 05:56:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer In-Reply-To: <00f801d1aa2d$aea34180$0be9c480$@com> References: <00f801d1aa2d$aea34180$0be9c480$@com> Message-ID: <3994CCB5-8908-4C5F-9FF2-D2CEE6CB18EE@swnl.net> David we have a long history w/ our solar trailers. Contact me off line . TUMP > On May 9, 2016, at 4:02 PM, Dave wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I have a customer looking for a tow behind solar trailer with the following specs: > Major features should include > · 120/240Vac output > · sealed Out Back inverters (because of moist and possibly dusty conditions) > · approx. 12,000 Watt Hours of rated battery storage. Thought is that (8) AGM 6v 250AH batteries would work > · approx. 1,500W PV Array > > I am requesting a quote from Patriot Solar (Albion, MI) http://patriotsolargroup.com/products/solar-parent/solar-child/solar-trailers-2-4kw/ > > Does anyone know of other trailers that are in this class, new or used? Hopefully cost effective units? Something like the tow behinds that Jason Szumlanski made at AMP Systems would be appropriate. > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > 802-888-4917 home > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 10 12:17:42 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 09:17:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question In-Reply-To: <437a388af2004fd69ae97e7eec402128@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <0D85598C-2B53-494D-832F-6A64C986A998@starlightsolar.com> <003701d1a0ce$b11d9c70$1358d550$@com> <57213AE9.9050004@four-winds-energy.com> <5723A067.5020608@Solarhacker.com> <437a388af2004fd69ae97e7eec402128@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <41E13E4D-0B71-449E-AB6C-3FB6993DFAD9@gmail.com> I want to add here that this whole thread came about because of a special and unusual need that a client of mine had. I received a few comments about why was I doing it this way. But the client wanted it this way, and I agreed so my job was to make it happen, with I did. With the help of many people from outback ( whom I’d like to thank all of them very much) we did come up with a fix, which is what Lones has described below. And this customer is very savvy, and knows how to get around the M3. His normal mode is a standard volt/% AGS start. When he is done with this odd situation he will put the Generator mode back to AC from DC. Sincerely, Jay Peltz > On May 9, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Lones Tuss wrote: > > Hello Fellow Wrenches > > Due to customer feedback OutBack decided to automatically enable the Inverters Ac Charger > if the Mate(3) called for an AGS (gen run) condition. The general opinion here is if the gen is running you might as well allow it to charge your batteries. Before we did this there were instances of generators running for hours/days before the end user discovered he had set the charger to OFF. > > That being said if charging by the inverter is not desired during a Gen run there > are several methods which will allow charging to be disabled. > > The method you use will more than likely depend on your situation. > If you wish to stop charging for the current gen run simply turn the Charge Off after the gen is running. > On the Mate3 press the Charger Button select OFF. > On the Mate and Mate2 press the AC Input button three times > the Charger can be turned OFF there. > > If it is necessary to turn the charger off on a more permanent basis there are a couple of different approaches. > One method is to go to the inverter charger menu and set the absorb and float timers to zero. > Another method and perhaps the easiest would be to change the gen type to DC or None. > Of these two I would suggest DC as the preferred choice. > After setting the Inverter Charger to Off follow the path as described below > > > On the Mate3 press the > LOCK button > Enter 141 > Select > Settings then > System then > System Information > change Gen Type to DC or None. > If the inverters charger is disabled it will remain so when AGS calls for a gen run. > On the Mate or Mate2 > In the AGS program menu select DC gen and the Auto Charge feature will be negated. > > The above will work if the gen run is caused by the following AGS triggers. > Load Start, Must Run, Generator Exercise > If the gen run condition is a Voltage Start the trigger to turn the gen off is the batteries must reach the Absorb Voltage for the Absorb Time. > If the gen run condition is SOC the trigger to turn the gen off is the batteries must reach > the end SOC set point. > These points may be unachievable with the inverters charger set to OFF. > If this is the case lack of fuel may be the gen stop reason. > > Lones Tuss > Applications Engineer > OutBack Power Technologies > 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 > 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell > www.outbackpower.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darren Emmons > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 10:57 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback programing question > > When the generator is auto started, the inverter's charger will be enabled. After the generator is stopped, the inverter's charger will be returned to the mode before the generator started. The logic is if you are running the generator the Inverter's charger should be enabled. You could lower the charger AC limit to 0 Amps. > > 08:00 Inverter charger OFF > 10:00 Must run start -> charger ON > 11:00 Must run stop -> charger OFF > >> Darren > > From solarworks at gmail.com Tue May 10 13:27:28 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 10:27:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations Message-ID: Hi Folks, We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. Ideally it would be able to be done hot. I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. Thank you!!!! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Tue May 10 13:45:12 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 13:45:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ilsco has some great options. See: https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/Ilsco/Ilsco-InsulationPiercingConnectors-CatalogPage.pdf Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Tue, May 10, 2016 1:27 pm, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Hi Folks, > We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone > could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires > between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. > Ideally it would be able to be done hot. > I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to > coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. > Thank you!!!! > > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From solarworks at gmail.com Tue May 10 14:39:00 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 11:39:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matt...Thank you!!! That is what I was after.....They are ordered and on their way..... Cheers! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Matt Partymiller < matt at solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote: > Ilsco has some great options. See: > > > https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/Ilsco/Ilsco-InsulationPiercingConnectors-CatalogPage.pdf > > Matt > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > On Tue, May 10, 2016 1:27 pm, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone > > could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires > > between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. > > Ideally it would be able to be done hot. > > I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to > > coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things > simple. > > Thank you!!!! > > > > > > > > Sunny Regards, > > Kirpal Khalsa > > Oregon LRT#25 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > Oregon Solarworks LLC > > www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > > ml > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue May 10 14:04:55 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 14:04:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult jobs. Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG Part #IPCS2001 Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, Dual Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Hi Folks, > We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone > could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires > between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. > Ideally it would be able to be done hot. > I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to > coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. > Thank you!!!! > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Tue May 10 17:27:10 2016 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 21:27:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE with two hubs. In-Reply-To: References: <87A9ACB2-B12C-4127-8065-D7AFBF6086DA@gmail.com> <50F5B5D0-79EF-4320-AAC3-8DE153127DD1@millersolar.com> Message-ID: The Flex net DC can be used with up to three shunts. It will give individual shunt information as well as overall total of the three. The actual labels do not matter other than easy identification. But if you do want to label them it is done in the Configuration Wizard I would recommend installing the FNDC on the Mate3/Hub combination used with the inverters. It is nice to have SOC, Dc Voltage and Battery Temperature viewed with the inverters. Do I really need the PV shunt? Yes for the FNDC to be accurate all paths into and out of the batteries must go through a shunt. I can’t seem to find the screen where you label the charge controllers. The Mate3 with the charge controllers will label them as Port 1-10. You can assign a name to a shunt you cannot assign a name to a charge controller. Each Mate has its own Mac address put both Mates under the same site name. Just to clarify OutBack usually uses a 500 amp 50mv shunt. 500/ .05 = 10,000 to 1 ratio It is possible to use a 1000A 100mv shunt The 10,000 to 1 ratio is the same. This can help with larger systems. I apologize for the piece meal response. There are several questions here that had to be dealt with individually. I hope this helps. Take Care Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 9:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE with two hubs. Nope doesn't care. You could have 1 shunt or 3. You just get to monitor the 3 shunts. The m3 display uses comm from the cc Jay Sent from my iPhone On May 3, 2016, at 8:44 AM, William Miller > wrote: Jay: Thanks for the reply. I meant label the shunts. Doesn't the FNDC need to differentiate between PV charge and inverter charge? William On May 3, 2016, at 7:18 AM, Jay > wrote: Hi William, Yes you need the shunt for PV the FNDC to read correctly I'm not sure exactly what you mean about labeling the cc? The FNDC doesn't care what each shunt does. Cc, inverter DC loads etc, if that's what you mean Jay Peltz power. On May 3, 2016, at 12:10 AM, William Miller > wrote: Friends: I am setting up an Optics RE system with a system that has 8 FX inverters and 3 charge controllers. I installed two Mate3s and a Flexnet-DC. I need two shunts for the Inverters because 4 are connected in one DC1000 and 4 in the other. I installed a third shunt for the PV. The inverter Mate3 and Flexnet connects into one 10 port hub and the PV Mate3 connects into another hub with the charge controllers. Do I really need the PV shunt? How is the Flexnet processing charge current if it does not know there are charge controllers? I can’t seem to find the screen where you label the charge controllers. I am used to setting these up with Radians. Am I missing something? Any help is appreciates. Because when I posed this question to Outback and got the audible equivalent to a blank stare: Thanks in advance, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue May 10 17:05:24 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 17:05:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer In-Reply-To: References: <00f801d1aa2d$aea34180$0be9c480$@com> <9fd858e43d3b4c88bcaf94ab6ca6a3a7@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: I did a variety of standard cargo trailer sizes (5x8, 6x12, etc.) Here are a few resources. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaSEY6ZZdrM http://alternativemobilepower.com/ http://alternativemobilepower.com/video/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1GWWwMrDtI ​Jason​ On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > Hey Jason, > Sorry to hear that. Any chance you can share a couple of pix so we can > build it ourselves? What were the trailer dimensions? > Thanks, > Christopher > > On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Lones Tuss wrote: > >> Hello sir >> >> You might also want to look into >> >> http://www.mobilesolarpower.net/ >> >> I hope this helps >> >> Take Care >> >> >> >> Lones Tuss >> >> Applications Engineer >> >> OutBack Power Technologies >> >> 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 >> >> 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell >> >> www.outbackpower.com >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Dave >> *Sent:* Monday, May 09, 2016 1:02 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Mobile solar trailer >> >> >> >> Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I have a customer looking for a tow behind solar trailer with the >> following specs: >> >> Major features should include >> >> · 120/240Vac output >> >> · sealed Out Back inverters (because of moist and possibly dusty >> conditions) >> >> · approx. 12,000 Watt Hours of rated battery storage. Thought >> is that (8) AGM 6v 250AH batteries would work >> >> · approx. 1,500W PV Array >> >> >> >> I am requesting a quote from Patriot Solar (Albion, MI) >> http://patriotsolargroup.com/products/solar-parent/solar-child/solar-trailers-2-4kw/ >> >> >> >> Does anyone know of other trailers that are in this class, new or used? >> Hopefully cost effective units? Something like the tow behinds that Jason >> Szumlanski made at AMP Systems would be appropriate. >> >> >> >> David Palumbo >> >> Independent Power LLC >> >> 462 Solar Way Drive >> >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> >> 802-371-8678 cell >> >> 802-888-4917 home >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <585-229-2083> or Cell 585-748-1870 <585-748-1870> * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed May 11 00:26:23 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 21:26:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for making the tap on an energized line. Why not have the meter pulled? While insulation piercing taps are designed for “hot work”, there use for that should be limited to tapping conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under load, with generous working space, like in a piece of switch gear. Even in that situation, making taps on energized conductors should only be done when it’s an absolute necessity. I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under my belt, both line and load side and will say that face shields and hot gloves saved my butt on several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar on my neck from a molten piece of lug from a main breaker that broke apart while I was tightening up it’s mounting screw. Stuff happens. It’s always best to play it safe. Michael Morningstar > On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult jobs. > > Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG > > Part #IPCS2001 > Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, Dual Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut > > On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa > wrote: > Hi Folks, > We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. Ideally it would be able to be done hot. > I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. > Thank you!!!! > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 11 08:24:09 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 08:24:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> Message-ID: In some jurisdictions and for some utilities, pulling the meter is a MAJOR ordeal. Some jurisdictions require a "service change" permit on top of the solar permit just to have the meter pulled. It also requires getting an inspector out there at the perfect time to have it inspected so the the utility will re-install the meter. The homeowner is often without power for several hours, which is usually somewhere between inconvenient and unacceptable. Insulation piercing taps are extremely common around here for these reasons. With proper safety precautions and experience, I don't see any issue specifying and using them. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: > Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for making the tap on an energized > line. Why not have the meter pulled? While insulation piercing taps are > designed for “hot work”, there use for that should be limited to tapping > conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under load, with generous working > space, like in a piece of switch gear. Even in that situation, making taps > on energized conductors should only be done when it’s an absolute > necessity. I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under my belt, both line and > load side and will say that face shields and hot gloves saved my butt on > several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar on my neck from a molten piece > of lug from a main breaker that broke apart while I was tightening up it’s > mounting screw. Stuff happens. It’s always best to play it safe. > > Michael Morningstar > > > On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: > > This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult jobs. > > Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG > Part #IPCS2001 > Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, Dual > Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut > > On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa > wrote: > >> Hi Folks, >> We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone >> could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires >> between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. >> Ideally it would be able to be done hot. >> I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to >> coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. >> Thank you!!!! >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed May 11 10:12:31 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 07:12:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, “I get” that there is inconvenience in coordinating with the utility and inspectors, permitting, and power disruption. In my world that’s just a given part of the process. Of course there are circumstances where disconnecting a utility supply is nearly unavoidable, for instance, certain industrial processes that run 24/7. I am aware that the practice of installing line side taps on energized unfused conductors is common in the solar industry and always thought it pretty cavalier. I have to wonder just how many “installers” have had real training for live work and utilize proper personnel safety protection. Part of the classwork for this type of training is watching/viewing the results of things gone wrong, even when the best practices are applied. An indelible impression will certainly be imprinted, and an attitude of "avoiding the avoidable” second nature. Michael > On May 11, 2016, at 5:24 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > In some jurisdictions and for some utilities, pulling the meter is a MAJOR ordeal. Some jurisdictions require a "service change" permit on top of the solar permit just to have the meter pulled. It also requires getting an inspector out there at the perfect time to have it inspected so the the utility will re-install the meter. The homeowner is often without power for several hours, which is usually somewhere between inconvenient and unacceptable. Insulation piercing taps are extremely common around here for these reasons. With proper safety precautions and experience, I don't see any issue specifying and using them. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Shasta Daiku > wrote: > Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for making the tap on an energized line. Why not have the meter pulled? While insulation piercing taps are designed for “hot work”, there use for that should be limited to tapping conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under load, with generous working space, like in a piece of switch gear. Even in that situation, making taps on energized conductors should only be done when it’s an absolute necessity. I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under my belt, both line and load side and will say that face shields and hot gloves saved my butt on several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar on my neck from a molten piece of lug from a main breaker that broke apart while I was tightening up it’s mounting screw. Stuff happens. It’s always best to play it safe. > > Michael Morningstar > > >> On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: >> >> This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult jobs. >> >> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG >> >> Part #IPCS2001 >> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, Dual Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut >> >> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa >wrote: >> Hi Folks, >> We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. Ideally it would be able to be done hot. >> I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. >> Thank you!!!! >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Wed May 11 11:36:38 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 08:36:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Shasta....Thank you for the reminder. Safety first as they say!! Jason hit the nail on the head....Coordinating with the local utility and inspector is what caused us to go the route of the insulation piercing taps in the first place....We also considered the ConnectDer meter collar.....I am sure we will use it in the future....The local utility has not already approved their use and in the middle of a project we didn't want to break new ground. Luckily for us our experienced electrician will be making the hot taps, I will use the opportunity to remind them about safety.... Cheers! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: > Yes, “I get” that there is inconvenience in coordinating with the utility > and inspectors, permitting, and power disruption. In my world that’s just a > given part of the process. Of course there are circumstances where > disconnecting a utility supply is nearly unavoidable, for instance, certain > industrial processes that run 24/7. I am aware that the practice of > installing line side taps on energized unfused conductors is common in the > solar industry and always thought it pretty cavalier. I have to wonder just > how many “installers” have had real training for live work and utilize > proper personnel safety protection. Part of the classwork for this type of > training is watching/viewing the results of things gone wrong, even when > the best practices are applied. An indelible impression > will certainly be imprinted, and an attitude of "avoiding the avoidable” > second nature. > > Michael > > On May 11, 2016, at 5:24 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > In some jurisdictions and for some utilities, pulling the meter is a MAJOR > ordeal. Some jurisdictions require a "service change" permit on top of the > solar permit just to have the meter pulled. It also requires getting an > inspector out there at the perfect time to have it inspected so the the > utility will re-install the meter. The homeowner is often without power for > several hours, which is usually somewhere between inconvenient and > unacceptable. Insulation piercing taps are extremely common around here for > these reasons. With proper safety precautions and experience, I don't see > any issue specifying and using them. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Shasta Daiku > wrote: > >> Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for making the tap on an energized >> line. Why not have the meter pulled? While insulation piercing taps are >> designed for “hot work”, there use for that should be limited to tapping >> conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under load, with generous working >> space, like in a piece of switch gear. Even in that situation, making taps >> on energized conductors should only be done when it’s an absolute >> necessity. I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under my belt, both line and >> load side and will say that face shields and hot gloves saved my butt on >> several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar on my neck from a molten piece >> of lug from a main breaker that broke apart while I was tightening up it’s >> mounting screw. Stuff happens. It’s always best to play it safe. >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason >> wrote: >> >> This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult jobs. >> >> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG >> Part #IPCS2001 >> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, Dual >> Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut >> >> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Folks, >>> We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone >>> could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires >>> between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. >>> Ideally it would be able to be done hot. >>> I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to >>> coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. >>> Thank you!!!! >>> >>> >>> Sunny Regards, >>> Kirpal Khalsa >>> Oregon LRT#25 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> www.oregonsolarworks.com >>> 541-299-0402 >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed May 11 11:44:34 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 09:44:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Kirpal, Sounds like you are well informed but I thought I'd throw this in just in case. In Xcel Energy territory in Colorado they specifically prohibit piercing taps for solar installations. I'm not sure why, but you may want to run it by the utility in case there happens to be some solar specific regulation. Good Luck On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Hi Shasta....Thank you for the reminder. Safety first as they say!! Jason > hit the nail on the head....Coordinating with the local utility and > inspector is what caused us to go the route of the insulation piercing taps > in the first place....We also considered the ConnectDer meter collar.....I > am sure we will use it in the future....The local utility has not already > approved their use and in the middle of a project we didn't want to break > new ground. > Luckily for us our experienced electrician will be making the hot taps, I > will use the opportunity to remind them about safety.... > Cheers! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Shasta Daiku > wrote: > >> Yes, “I get” that there is inconvenience in coordinating with the >> utility and inspectors, permitting, and power disruption. In my world >> that’s just a given part of the process. Of course there are circumstances >> where disconnecting a utility supply is nearly unavoidable, for instance, >> certain industrial processes that run 24/7. I am aware that the practice of >> installing line side taps on energized unfused conductors is common in the >> solar industry and always thought it pretty cavalier. I have to wonder just >> how many “installers” have had real training for live work and utilize >> proper personnel safety protection. Part of the classwork for this type of >> training is watching/viewing the results of things gone wrong, even when >> the best practices are applied. An indelible impression >> will certainly be imprinted, and an attitude of "avoiding the avoidable” >> second nature. >> >> Michael >> >> On May 11, 2016, at 5:24 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> In some jurisdictions and for some utilities, pulling the meter is a >> MAJOR ordeal. Some jurisdictions require a "service change" permit on top >> of the solar permit just to have the meter pulled. It also requires getting >> an inspector out there at the perfect time to have it inspected so the the >> utility will re-install the meter. The homeowner is often without power for >> several hours, which is usually somewhere between inconvenient and >> unacceptable. Insulation piercing taps are extremely common around here for >> these reasons. With proper safety precautions and experience, I don't see >> any issue specifying and using them. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Shasta Daiku >> wrote: >> >>> Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for making the tap on an >>> energized line. Why not have the meter pulled? While insulation piercing >>> taps are designed for “hot work”, there use for that should be limited to >>> tapping conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under load, with generous >>> working space, like in a piece of switch gear. Even in that situation, >>> making taps on energized conductors should only be done when it’s an >>> absolute necessity. I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under my belt, both >>> line and load side and will say that face shields and hot gloves saved my >>> butt on several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar on my neck from a molten >>> piece of lug from a main breaker that broke apart while I was tightening up >>> it’s mounting screw. Stuff happens. It’s always best to play it safe. >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> >>> On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason >>> wrote: >>> >>> This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult jobs. >>> >>> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG >>> Part #IPCS2001 >>> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, Dual >>> Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut >>> >>> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Folks, >>>> We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone >>>> could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires >>>> between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. >>>> Ideally it would be able to be done hot. >>>> I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to >>>> coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. >>>> Thank you!!!! >>>> >>>> >>>> Sunny Regards, >>>> Kirpal Khalsa >>>> Oregon LRT#25 >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>> www.oregonsolarworks.com >>>> 541-299-0402 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Mason >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>> >>> www.cometsolar.com >>> 264.235.5670 >>> 869.662.5670 >>> Skype: netconcepts >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Wed May 11 11:47:55 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:47:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <34f9e4b6ac19817b0e8f91bb4d25ffbe.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Mac, Is this a utility or AHJ prohibition? In most jurisdictions we work in (not CO) the utilities prohibit taps in the meter base but take no responsibility for conductors once they leave the meter base. Matt On Wed, May 11, 2016 11:44 am, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Kirpal, > > > Sounds like you are well informed but I thought I'd throw this in just in > case. In Xcel Energy territory in Colorado they specifically prohibit > piercing taps for solar installations. I'm not sure why, but you may > want to run it by the utility in case there happens to be some solar > specific regulation. > > Good Luck > > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Kirpal Khalsa > wrote: > > >> Hi Shasta....Thank you for the reminder. Safety first as they say!! >> Jason >> hit the nail on the head....Coordinating with the local utility and >> inspector is what caused us to go the route of the insulation piercing >> taps in the first place....We also considered the ConnectDer meter >> collar.....I am sure we will use it in the future....The local utility >> has not already approved their use and in the middle of a project we >> didn't want to break new ground. Luckily for us our experienced >> electrician will be making the hot taps, I will use the opportunity to >> remind them about safety.... Cheers! >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 >> >> >> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Shasta Daiku >> wrote: >> >> >>> Yes, “I get” that there is inconvenience in coordinating with the >>> utility and inspectors, permitting, and power disruption. In my world >>> that’s just a given part of the process. Of course there are >>> circumstances where disconnecting a utility supply is nearly >>> unavoidable, for instance, certain industrial processes that run 24/7. >>> I am aware that the practice of >>> installing line side taps on energized unfused conductors is common in >>> the solar industry and always thought it pretty cavalier. I have to >>> wonder just how many “installers” have had real training for live work >>> and utilize proper personnel safety protection. Part of the classwork >>> for this type of training is watching/viewing the results of things >>> gone wrong, even when the best practices are applied. An indelible >>> impression will certainly be imprinted, and an attitude of "avoiding >>> the avoidable” second nature. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> On May 11, 2016, at 5:24 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> In some jurisdictions and for some utilities, pulling the meter is a >>> MAJOR ordeal. Some jurisdictions require a "service change" permit on >>> top of the solar permit just to have the meter pulled. It also >>> requires getting an inspector out there at the perfect time to have it >>> inspected so the the utility will re-install the meter. The homeowner >>> is often without power for several hours, which is usually somewhere >>> between inconvenient and unacceptable. Insulation piercing taps are >>> extremely common around here for these reasons. With proper safety >>> precautions and experience, I don't see any issue specifying and using >>> them. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Shasta Daiku >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for making the tap on an >>>> energized line. Why not have the meter pulled? While insulation >>>> piercing taps are designed for “hot work”, there use for that should >>>> be limited to tapping conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under >>>> load, with generous working space, like in a piece of switch gear. >>>> Even in that situation, >>>> making taps on energized conductors should only be done when it’s an >>>> absolute necessity. I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under my >>>> belt, both line and load side and will say that face shields and hot >>>> gloves saved my butt on several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar >>>> on my neck from a molten piece of lug from a main breaker that broke >>>> apart while I was tightening up it’s mounting screw. Stuff happens. >>>> It’s always best to play it safe. >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael Morningstar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult >>>> jobs. >>>> >>>> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG >>>> Part #IPCS2001 >>>> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, >>>> Dual >>>> Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Folks, >>>>> We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if >>>>> anyone could share some makes and models for connectors connecting >>>>> to the wires between a main meter and the main breakers in the >>>>> electrical panel. Ideally it would be able to be done hot. >>>>> I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have >>>>> to coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep >>>>> things simple. Thank you!!!! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sunny Regards, >>>>> Kirpal Khalsa >>>>> Oregon LRT#25 >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>>> www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Chris Mason >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>>> >>>> >>>> www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 >>>> 869.662.5670 >>>> Skype: netconcepts >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >> tml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > > Mac Lewis > > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed May 11 12:02:06 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:02:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: <34f9e4b6ac19817b0e8f91bb4d25ffbe.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> <34f9e4b6ac19817b0e8f91bb4d25ffbe.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: Hi Matt, It is a utility requirement not an AHJ requirement, but you might be right that they are just prohibited in the meter can. I can't find the specific wording in the metering standard at the moment. On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Matt Partymiller < matt at solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote: > Mac, > > Is this a utility or AHJ prohibition? In most jurisdictions we work in > (not CO) the utilities prohibit taps in the meter base but take no > responsibility for conductors once they leave the meter base. > > Matt > > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 11:44 am, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Kirpal, > > > > > > Sounds like you are well informed but I thought I'd throw this in just in > > case. In Xcel Energy territory in Colorado they specifically prohibit > > piercing taps for solar installations. I'm not sure why, but you may > > want to run it by the utility in case there happens to be some solar > > specific regulation. > > > > Good Luck > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Kirpal Khalsa > > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Shasta....Thank you for the reminder. Safety first as they say!! > >> Jason > >> hit the nail on the head....Coordinating with the local utility and > >> inspector is what caused us to go the route of the insulation piercing > >> taps in the first place....We also considered the ConnectDer meter > >> collar.....I am sure we will use it in the future....The local utility > >> has not already approved their use and in the middle of a project we > >> didn't want to break new ground. Luckily for us our experienced > >> electrician will be making the hot taps, I will use the opportunity to > >> remind them about safety.... Cheers! > >> > >> > >> Sunny Regards, > >> Kirpal Khalsa > >> Oregon LRT#25 > >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > >> Oregon Solarworks LLC > >> www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 > >> > >> > >> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Shasta Daiku > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Yes, “I get” that there is inconvenience in coordinating with the > >>> utility and inspectors, permitting, and power disruption. In my world > >>> that’s just a given part of the process. Of course there are > >>> circumstances where disconnecting a utility supply is nearly > >>> unavoidable, for instance, certain industrial processes that run 24/7. > >>> I am aware that the practice of > >>> installing line side taps on energized unfused conductors is common in > >>> the solar industry and always thought it pretty cavalier. I have to > >>> wonder just how many “installers” have had real training for live work > >>> and utilize proper personnel safety protection. Part of the classwork > >>> for this type of training is watching/viewing the results of things > >>> gone wrong, even when the best practices are applied. An indelible > >>> impression will certainly be imprinted, and an attitude of "avoiding > >>> the avoidable” second nature. > >>> > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> On May 11, 2016, at 5:24 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> In some jurisdictions and for some utilities, pulling the meter is a > >>> MAJOR ordeal. Some jurisdictions require a "service change" permit on > >>> top of the solar permit just to have the meter pulled. It also > >>> requires getting an inspector out there at the perfect time to have it > >>> inspected so the the utility will re-install the meter. The homeowner > >>> is often without power for several hours, which is usually somewhere > >>> between inconvenient and unacceptable. Insulation piercing taps are > >>> extremely common around here for these reasons. With proper safety > >>> precautions and experience, I don't see any issue specifying and using > >>> them. > >>> > >>> > >>> Jason Szumlanski > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Shasta Daiku > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for making the tap on an > >>>> energized line. Why not have the meter pulled? While insulation > >>>> piercing taps are designed for “hot work”, there use for that should > >>>> be limited to tapping conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under > >>>> load, with generous working space, like in a piece of switch gear. > >>>> Even in that situation, > >>>> making taps on energized conductors should only be done when it’s an > >>>> absolute necessity. I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under my > >>>> belt, both line and load side and will say that face shields and hot > >>>> gloves saved my butt on several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar > >>>> on my neck from a molten piece of lug from a main breaker that broke > >>>> apart while I was tightening up it’s mounting screw. Stuff happens. > >>>> It’s always best to play it safe. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Michael Morningstar > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult > >>>> jobs. > >>>> > >>>> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG > >>>> Part #IPCS2001 > >>>> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, > >>>> Dual > >>>> Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Folks, > >>>>> We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if > >>>>> anyone could share some makes and models for connectors connecting > >>>>> to the wires between a main meter and the main breakers in the > >>>>> electrical panel. Ideally it would be able to be done hot. > >>>>> I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have > >>>>> to coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep > >>>>> things simple. Thank you!!!! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Sunny Regards, > >>>>> Kirpal Khalsa > >>>>> Oregon LRT#25 > >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > >>>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC > >>>>> www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Chris Mason > >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > >>>> Solar Design Engineer > >>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 > >>>> 869.662.5670 > >>>> Skype: netconcepts > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> List-Archive: > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > >>> .html > >>> > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> List-Archive: > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > >>> .html > >>> > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h > >> tml > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > > > > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > > ml > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 11 12:10:32 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 12:10:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Don't kill the messenger. I just answered your "why" question. In Florida the "installer" (a licensed solar contractor) must subcontract the AC interconnection to a licensed Electrical Contractor if the company is not directly qualified by one. The "installer" would be wise to subcontract that work to a well-qualified EC and make sure the work is done by trained competent staff. We do all kinds of dangerous and risky things in this industry. Installing a UL listed tap intended for use under these conditions can be extremely dangerous, but can also be done safely if conducted with the right safety precautions by qualified personnel in my opinion. If a subcontracted EC or any staff member deems the procedure unsafe, we would always err on the side of caution and require a meter pull. Jason On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: > Yes, “I get” that there is inconvenience in coordinating with the utility > and inspectors, permitting, and power disruption. In my world that’s just a > given part of the process. Of course there are circumstances where > disconnecting a utility supply is nearly unavoidable, for instance, certain > industrial processes that run 24/7. I am aware that the practice of > installing line side taps on energized unfused conductors is common in the > solar industry and always thought it pretty cavalier. I have to wonder just > how many “installers” have had real training for live work and utilize > proper personnel safety protection. Part of the classwork for this type of > training is watching/viewing the results of things gone wrong, even when > the best practices are applied. An indelible impression > will certainly be imprinted, and an attitude of "avoiding the avoidable” > second nature. > > Michael > > On May 11, 2016, at 5:24 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > In some jurisdictions and for some utilities, pulling the meter is a MAJOR > ordeal. Some jurisdictions require a "service change" permit on top of the > solar permit just to have the meter pulled. It also requires getting an > inspector out there at the perfect time to have it inspected so the the > utility will re-install the meter. The homeowner is often without power for > several hours, which is usually somewhere between inconvenient and > unacceptable. Insulation piercing taps are extremely common around here for > these reasons. With proper safety precautions and experience, I don't see > any issue specifying and using them. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Shasta Daiku > wrote: > >> Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for making the tap on an energized >> line. Why not have the meter pulled? While insulation piercing taps are >> designed for “hot work”, there use for that should be limited to tapping >> conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under load, with generous working >> space, like in a piece of switch gear. Even in that situation, making taps >> on energized conductors should only be done when it’s an absolute >> necessity. I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under my belt, both line and >> load side and will say that face shields and hot gloves saved my butt on >> several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar on my neck from a molten piece >> of lug from a main breaker that broke apart while I was tightening up it’s >> mounting screw. Stuff happens. It’s always best to play it safe. >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason >> wrote: >> >> This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult jobs. >> >> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG >> Part #IPCS2001 >> Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, Dual >> Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut >> >> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Folks, >>> We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone >>> could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires >>> between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. >>> Ideally it would be able to be done hot. >>> I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to >>> coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. >>> Thank you!!!! >>> >>> >>> Sunny Regards, >>> Kirpal Khalsa >>> Oregon LRT#25 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> www.oregonsolarworks.com >>> 541-299-0402 >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> __________________ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed May 11 14:37:08 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:37:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <34ca940e4fa305a6a5e7c830c5bdf9a9@mail.gmail.com> I don’t know about other parts of the country. If we have a self contained revenue meter – ie the type that cuts off power to the building when it is pulled, then we just pull it for any type of supply side connection or service upgrade. Sometimes we have to cut the utility locking mechanism (we have meter locking rings in our territory) in order to pull the meter. We don’t get the utility involved. If the project has a CT style meter where pulling the meter doesn’t cut off power, then we have to setup a disconnect reconnect with the utility for supply side connections. Screwing around in a live panel even with insulation piercing conductors is a risk that is not worth taking. The utility can supply *a lot* of current on the supply side of a service! -August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:11 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations Don't kill the messenger. I just answered your "why" question. In Florida the "installer" (a licensed solar contractor) must subcontract the AC interconnection to a licensed Electrical Contractor if the company is not directly qualified by one. The "installer" would be wise to subcontract that work to a well-qualified EC and make sure the work is done by trained competent staff. We do all kinds of dangerous and risky things in this industry. Installing a UL listed tap intended for use under these conditions can be extremely dangerous, but can also be done safely if conducted with the right safety precautions by qualified personnel in my opinion. If a subcontracted EC or any staff member deems the procedure unsafe, we would always err on the side of caution and require a meter pull. Jason On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: Yes, “I get” that there is inconvenience in coordinating with the utility and inspectors, permitting, and power disruption. In my world that’s just a given part of the process. Of course there are circumstances where disconnecting a utility supply is nearly unavoidable, for instance, certain industrial processes that run 24/7. I am aware that the practice of installing line side taps on energized unfused conductors is common in the solar industry and always thought it pretty cavalier. I have to wonder just how many “installers” have had real training for live work and utilize proper personnel safety protection. Part of the classwork for this type of training is watching/viewing the results of things gone wrong, even when the best practices are applied. An indelible impression will certainly be imprinted, and an attitude of "avoiding the avoidable” second nature. Michael On May 11, 2016, at 5:24 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: In some jurisdictions and for some utilities, pulling the meter is a MAJOR ordeal. Some jurisdictions require a "service change" permit on top of the solar permit just to have the meter pulled. It also requires getting an inspector out there at the perfect time to have it inspected so the the utility will re-install the meter. The homeowner is often without power for several hours, which is usually somewhere between inconvenient and unacceptable. Insulation piercing taps are extremely common around here for these reasons. With proper safety precautions and experience, I don't see any issue specifying and using them. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for making the tap on an energized line. Why not have the meter pulled? While insulation piercing taps are designed for “hot work”, there use for that should be limited to tapping conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under load, with generous working space, like in a piece of switch gear. Even in that situation, making taps on energized conductors should only be done when it’s an absolute necessity. I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under my belt, both line and load side and will say that face shields and hot gloves saved my butt on several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar on my neck from a molten piece of lug from a main breaker that broke apart while I was tightening up it’s mounting screw. Stuff happens. It’s always best to play it safe. Michael Morningstar On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason wrote: This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult jobs. Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG Part #IPCS2001 Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, Dual Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: Hi Folks, We have a job requiring a supply side connection. Wondering if anyone could share some makes and models for connectors connecting to the wires between a main meter and the main breakers in the electrical panel. Ideally it would be able to be done hot. I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter collar but will have to coordinate with the utility for that and am looking to keep things simple. Thank you!!!! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts __________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 11 15:15:52 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 12:15:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] multiple radian installation In-Reply-To: <34ca940e4fa305a6a5e7c830c5bdf9a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> <34ca940e4fa305a6a5e7c830c5bdf9a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: HI All, I’m curious how folks are doing the AC bypass and AC side on a 3 radian 240v setup? I”m leaning on doing an external transfer switch, but curious what others have done. thanks jay peltz power From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed May 11 15:44:49 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:44:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Connectder Message-ID: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> In Vermont, our largest utility approves of and actually sells the Connectder meter collar at a discount – which of course requires the meter to be pulled. AND they allow the non-electrician installer to pull and reinstall it in single-family residential applications. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 2:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations I don’t know about other parts of the country. If we have a self contained revenue meter – ie the type that cuts off power to the building when it is pulled, then we just pull it for any type of supply side connection or service upgrade. Sometimes we have to cut the utility locking mechanism (we have meter locking rings in our territory) in order to pull the meter. We don’t get the utility involved. If the project has a CT style meter where pulling the meter doesn’t cut off power, then we have to setup a disconnect reconnect with the utility for supply side connections. Screwing around in a live panel even with insulation piercing conductors is a risk that is not worth taking. The utility can supply a lot of current on the supply side of a service! -August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Wed May 11 16:22:36 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 13:22:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] multiple radian installation In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> <34ca940e4fa305a6a5e7c830c5bdf9a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, we typically use an external on/off/on transfer switch.....you are on a good path. With a 3 Radian system it will be a large bypass switch....Expensive! Good luck. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:15 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m curious how folks are doing the AC bypass and AC side on a 3 radian > 240v setup? > > I”m leaning on doing an external transfer switch, but curious what others > have done. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 11 16:32:23 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 13:32:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] multiple radian installation In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> <34ca940e4fa305a6a5e7c830c5bdf9a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks. I hope that OB comes up with a better integrated unit. I can get a 200 amp 3R transfer switch from my local hardware store for $189. Not bad. thx jay > On May 11, 2016, at 1:22 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > > Jay, we typically use an external on/off/on transfer switch.....you are on a good path. With a 3 Radian system it will be a large bypass switch....Expensive! > Good luck. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:15 PM, jay > wrote: > HI All, > > I’m curious how folks are doing the AC bypass and AC side on a 3 radian 240v setup? > > I”m leaning on doing an external transfer switch, but curious what others have done. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed May 11 16:52:46 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 13:52:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] multiple radian installation In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> <34ca940e4fa305a6a5e7c830c5bdf9a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay: We create a bypass system in an outboard load-center. We fabricate our own interlocks, like the one in the attached photograph. We are aware these are not listed interlocks but they do satisfy common sense analysis on mechanical effectiveness and reliability. The interlock depicted has the options of power coming from either two inverters, generator or grid. If you look closely, you can see you have to turn off one input before you can turn on another. The outputs can all operate at any time. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 12:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] multiple radian installation HI All, I’m curious how folks are doing the AC bypass and AC side on a 3 radian 240v setup? I”m leaning on doing an external transfer switch, but curious what others have done. thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transfer.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 156834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed May 11 19:56:31 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 18:56:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is it just me or is anybody else confused on hom to interact with this list.ser...transition to modern forum application Message-ID: <04de01d1abe0$becdfe10$3c69fa30$@solarcentex.com> I love the interaction and knowledge within this forum but to be quite honest, I don't know how to interface and respond to others. I 'm waiting for the crushing responses.get up to the modern ages! Well, I'm actually quite tech savvy. I keep thinking of the other forums I subscribe to and they are based on modern interfaces (http://advrider.com/index.php is very easy to navigate, for example). Is there any consideration to shifting to something like this? If not can there be? I'll gladly help offset any subscription fees. I so want to answer to the Radian disconnect questions where I have some experience to share, but I just don't know how to! Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com www.solarcentex.com https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex http://www.solarreviews.com/installers/solar-centex-reviews/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 48547 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu May 12 09:48:17 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 09:48:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160512134825.4896210909@che.dreamhost.com> They are also prohibited by AEP Ohio. At 11:44 AM 5/11/2016, you wrote: >Hi Kirpal, > >Sounds like you are well informed but I thought >I'd throw this in just in case. In Xcel Energy >territory in Colorado they specifically prohibit >piercing taps for solar installations. I'm not >sure why, but you may want to run it by the >utility in case there happens to be some solar specific regulation. > >Good Luck > >On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Kirpal Khalsa ><solarworks at gmail.com> wrote: >Hi Shasta....Thank you for the >reminder. Safety first as they say!! Jason hit >the nail on the head....Coordinating with the >local utility and inspector is what caused us to >go the route of the insulation piercing taps in >the first place....We also considered the >ConnectDer meter collar.....I am sure we will >use it in the future....The local utility has >not already approved their use and in the middle >of a project we didn't want to break new ground. >Luckily for us our experienced electrician will >be making the hot taps, I will use the >opportunity to remind them about safety.... >Cheers! > >Sunny Regards, >Kirpal Khalsa >Oregon LRT#25 >NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >Oregon Solarworks LLC >www.oregonsolarworks.com >541-299-0402 > >On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Shasta Daiku ><mjmorningstar at gmail.com> wrote: >Yes, “I get” that there is inconvenience in >coordinating  with the utility and inspectors, >permitting, and power disruption. In my world >that’s just a given part of the process. Of >course there are circumstances where >disconnecting a utility supply is nearly >unavoidable, for instance, certain industrial >processes that run 24/7. I am aware that the >practice of installing line side taps on >energized unfused conductors is common in the >solar industry and always thought it pretty >cavalier. I have to wonder just how many >“installers” have had real training for live >work and utilize proper personnel safety >protection. Part of the classwork for this type >of training is watching/viewing the results of >things gone wrong, even when the best practices >are applied. An indelible impression >will certainly be imprinted, and an attitude of >"avoiding the avoidable” second nature. > >Michael > >>On May 11, 2016, at 5:24 AM, Jason Szumlanski >><jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> >>wrote: >> >>In some jurisdictions and for some utilities, >>pulling the meter is a MAJOR ordeal. Some >>jurisdictions require a "service change" permit >>on top of the solar permit just to have the >>meter pulled. It also requires getting an >>inspector out there at the perfect time to have >>it inspected so the the utility will re-install >>the meter. The homeowner is often without power >>for several hours, which is usually somewhere >>between inconvenient and unacceptable. >>Insulation piercing taps are extremely common >>around here for these reasons. With proper >>safety precautions and experience, I don't see >>any issue specifying and using them. >> >> >>Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >>On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Shasta Daiku >><mjmorningstar at gmail.com> wrote: >>Kirpal, I’m curious what the reason is for >>making the tap on an energized line. Why not >>have the meter pulled? While insulation >>piercing taps are designed for “hot work”, >>there use for that should be limited to tapping >>conductors that have OCP, and aren’t under >>load, with generous working space, like in a >>piece of switch gear. Even in that situation, >>making taps on energized conductors should only >>be done when it’s an absolute necessity. >>I’ve got a large body of “hot work” under >>my belt, both line and load side and will say >>that face shields and hot gloves saved my butt >>on several occasions and I’ve got a nice scar >>on my neck from a molten piece of lug from a >>main breaker that broke apart while I was >>tightening up it’s mounting screw. Stuff >>happens. It’s always best to play it safe. >> >>Michael Morningstar >> >> >>>On May 10, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Chris Mason >>><cometenergysystems at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>This is what we use - we keep a selection in the van for difficult jobs. >>> >>> >>> >>>Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG >>> >>> >>> >>>Part #IPCS2001 >>>Insulation Piercing Connector 2/0-10 AWG 2/0-4 >>>Main, 10-14 AWG Tap, Dual Rated AL9CU, Torque Limiting Nut >>> >>>On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kirpal >>>Khalsa <solarworks at gmail.com>wrote: >>>Hi Folks, >>>We have a job requiring a supply side >>>connection. Wondering if anyone could share >>>some makes and models for connectors >>>connecting to the wires between a main meter >>>and the main breakers in the electrical >>>panel. Ideally it would be able to be done hot.  >>>I am also looking into the ConnectDer meter >>>collar but will have to coordinate with the >>>utility for that and am looking to keep things simple.  >>>Thank you!!!! >>> >>> >>>Sunny Regards, >>>Kirpal Khalsa >>>Oregon LRT#25 >>>NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>www.oregonsolarworks.com >>>541-299-0402 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Chris Mason >>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 12 13:07:44 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 13:07:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Connectder In-Reply-To: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: A local co-op recently denied this device's use, even after the founder sent them a sample for testing. They made up some nonsense about too much weight on the meter, then backtracked when we pointed out that they install heavier generator transfer collars and surge collars. Then they said the ConnecDER would interfere with those other devices that they offer, and would not listen to reason when we explained that it was the customer's choice what collar device(s) they choose. Argh! It's one thing after another... Jason Szumlanski On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 3:44 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > In Vermont, our largest utility approves of and actually sells the > Connectder meter collar at a discount – which of course requires the meter > to be pulled. AND they allow the non-electrician installer to pull and > reinstall it in single-family residential applications. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 2:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector > recommendations > > > > I don’t know about other parts of the country. > > > > If we have a self contained revenue meter – ie the type that cuts off > power to the building when it is pulled, then we just pull it for any type > of supply side connection or service upgrade. Sometimes we have to cut the > utility locking mechanism (we have meter locking rings in our territory) in > order to pull the meter. We don’t get the utility involved. > > > > If the project has a CT style meter where pulling the meter doesn’t cut > off power, then we have to setup a disconnect reconnect with the utility > for supply side connections. Screwing around in a live panel even with > insulation piercing conductors is a risk that is not worth taking. The > utility can supply *a lot* of current on the supply side of a service! > > > > -August > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu May 12 13:20:39 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 07:20:39 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Connectder In-Reply-To: References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <001201d1ac72$9bcd3060$d3679120$@com> In Hawaii, we, too, have run into issues with the islands’ utilities approving this device for use. As in, so far it’s been a no-go. Too bad…because it does present some advantages for those 10 kW and under systems. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 7:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Connectder A local co-op recently denied this device's use, even after the founder sent them a sample for testing. They made up some nonsense about too much weight on the meter, then backtracked when we pointed out that they install heavier generator transfer collars and surge collars. Then they said the ConnecDER would interfere with those other devices that they offer, and would not listen to reason when we explained that it was the customer's choice what collar device(s) they choose. Argh! It's one thing after another... Jason Szumlanski On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 3:44 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: In Vermont, our largest utility approves of and actually sells the Connectder meter collar at a discount – which of course requires the meter to be pulled. AND they allow the non-electrician installer to pull and reinstall it in single-family residential applications. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu May 12 14:10:13 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 08:10:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] multiple radian installation In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> <34ca940e4fa305a6a5e7c830c5bdf9a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches An external transfer switch seems to be the best solution so far. Jerry On May 11, 2016 9:33 AM, "jay" wrote: > HI All, > > I’m curious how folks are doing the AC bypass and AC side on a 3 radian > 240v setup? > > I”m leaning on doing an external transfer switch, but curious what others > have done. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu May 12 14:52:05 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 11:52:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GSLC Message-ID: Wrenches: The recent topic about bypass connections for the Radian is a very pertinent issue for anyone designing a Radian system. The problem is exacerbated by what I perceive is one poor design aspect of the GSLC cabinet. I generally like the Radian series, including the GSLC. I do find it puzzling that installers are expected to make connections to the rear of panel mount circuit breakers. This has to be done blind and in very tight quarters. This is further complicated by the expectation that one will install AC *and* DC circuit breakers in the same panel. We have tried leaving slack on the leads so the panel can be rotated, but that leaves more lead length than the cabinet will handle. Our solution is to move all AC breakers out of the GSLC and into adjacent, off-the-shelf load centers. We put the minimum PV breakers in the panel, located at the top for maximum latitude on tilting the panel out for access. We also pre-install the breakers in the panel in a bench vise with extra lead length and install the panel as a unit, hopefully never requiring access to the rear again. I applaud the GSLC as a decent product, but it does need improvement in this area. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 12 16:45:21 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 13:45:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GSLC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, One easy upgrade would be the use of Arctic Ultra flex wire. It would put almost no stress on the breaker connections. I haven’t done this yet, but I plan on doing it for the next GSLC that I install. jay peltz power > On May 12, 2016, at 11:52 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Wrenches: > > The recent topic about bypass connections for the Radian is a very pertinent issue for anyone designing a Radian system. The problem is exacerbated by what I perceive is one poor design aspect of the GSLC cabinet. > > I generally like the Radian series, including the GSLC. I do find it puzzling that installers are expected to make connections to the rear of panel mount circuit breakers. This has to be done blind and in very tight quarters. This is further complicated by the expectation that one will install AC and DC circuit breakers in the same panel. > > We have tried leaving slack on the leads so the panel can be rotated, but that leaves more lead length than the cabinet will handle. > > Our solution is to move all AC breakers out of the GSLC and into adjacent, off-the-shelf load centers. > > We put the minimum PV breakers in the panel, located at the top for maximum latitude on tilting the panel out for access. We also pre-install the breakers in the panel in a bench vise with extra lead length and install the panel as a unit, hopefully never requiring access to the rear again. > > I applaud the GSLC as a decent product, but it does need improvement in this area. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu May 12 22:54:39 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 19:54:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase without internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not getting an email response from Enphase (and their phone wait time has certainly increased), regarding off-internet monitoring. There is very little performance info on the Envoy. Many of my rural customers cannot or are just not interested in having their system with its performance on the internet via Enlighten. I'm trying to find out if I can bring my laptop (loaded with Enlighten?) to their Envoy and download their system info (with history) for my and their records, maybe stored on an SD card or a file on their computer. I understand the drawbacks of this occasional performance check but after a month or two, very very few of my customers, string or micro check or know what their system is doing.... until (very rarely) a power bill comes in at $200. CALL BILL!! Your thoughts? -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri May 13 10:02:37 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 07:02:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase without internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FB1BF38-508B-47D0-83BF-656A75FF8108@gmail.com> I know you can connect a laptop to the envoy and type in the IP address and download info. It's been five or six years since I've done this but it does work. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 12, 2016, at 7:54 PM, frenergy wrote: > > I'm not getting an email response from Enphase (and their phone wait time has certainly increased), regarding off-internet monitoring. There is very little performance info on the Envoy. Many of my rural customers cannot or are just not interested in having their system with its performance on the internet via Enlighten. I'm trying to find out if I can bring my laptop (loaded with Enlighten?) to their Envoy and download their system info (with history) for my and their records, maybe stored on an SD card or a file on their computer. I understand the drawbacks of this occasional performance check but after a month or two, very very few of my customers, string or micro check or know what their system is doing.... until (very rarely) a power bill comes in at $200. CALL BILL!! > Your thoughts? > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 13 10:37:44 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 10:37:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GSLC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160513143744.A14E820801C@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> William and Wrenches, The lack of room in the GSLC becomes much worse when using the factory installed AC coupling "solution" using the Remote Operated Circuit Breaker or ROCB. This takes up 3 breaker spaces plus puts two relays under the breaker column. I had to change out the ROCB twice in the one system I installed. The ROCB "solution" takes AC coupling, which is essentially straight forward and complicates it exponentially. Plus the ROCB itself is prone to failure, which could ruin a set of batteries. There are numerous other serious problems with their approach. With "solutions" like this one, who needs problems! Drake At 02:52 PM 5/12/2016, you wrote: >Wrenches: > >The recent topic about bypass connections for >the Radian is a very pertinent issue for anyone >designing a Radian system. The problem is >exacerbated by what I perceive is one poor >design aspect of the GSLC cabinet. > >I generally like the Radian series, including >the GSLC. I do find it puzzling that >installers are expected to make connections to >the rear of panel mount circuit breakers. This >has to be done blind and in very tight >quarters. This is further complicated by the >expectation that one will install AC and DC circuit breakers in the same panel. > >We have tried leaving slack on the leads so the >panel can be rotated, but that leaves more lead >length than the cabinet will handle. > >Our solution is to move all AC breakers out of >the GSLC and into adjacent, off-the-shelf load centers. > >We put the minimum PV breakers in the panel, >located at the top for maximum latitude on >tilting the panel out for access. We also >pre-install the breakers in the panel in a bench >vise with extra lead length and install the >panel as a unit, hopefully never requiring access to the rear again. > >I applaud the GSLC as a decent product, but it >does need improvement in this area. > >Sincerely, > >William Miller > > >Gradient Cap_mini > >Lic 773985 >millersolar.com >805-438-5600 > >Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" >Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" >Content-ID: >X-Attachment-Id: 29fc30ce3a67e929_0.1 > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri May 13 11:14:14 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 11:14:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GSLC In-Reply-To: <20160513143744.A14E820801C@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160513143744.A14E820801C@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: BTW, the ROCB also uses both of your AUX relay options. Got called in to evaluate a 6 Radian AC Coupled configuration with no charger controllers and 6 Fronuis. What a cluster *%#%(^. The project was a very bad design from the beginning. That's what happens when you ask a grid tied installer to give you a battery back up solution. Christopher On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > William and Wrenches, > > The lack of room in the GSLC becomes much worse when using the factory > installed AC coupling "solution" using the Remote Operated Circuit Breaker > or ROCB. This takes up 3 breaker spaces plus puts two relays under the > breaker column. I had to change out the ROCB twice in the one system I > installed. > > The ROCB "solution" takes AC coupling, which is essentially straight > forward and complicates it exponentially. Plus the ROCB itself is prone to > failure, which could ruin a set of batteries. There are numerous other > *serious* problems with their approach. With "solutions" like this one, > who needs problems! > > Drake > > At 02:52 PM 5/12/2016, you wrote: > > Wrenches: >  > The recent topic about bypass connections for the Radian is a very > pertinent issue for anyone designing a Radian system. The problem is > exacerbated by what I perceive is one poor design aspect of the GSLC > cabinet. >  > I generally like the Radian series, including the GSLC. I do find it > puzzling that installers are expected to make connections to the rear of > panel mount circuit breakers. This has to be done blind and in very tight > quarters. This is further complicated by the expectation that one will > install AC *and* DC circuit breakers in the same panel. >  > We have tried leaving slack on the leads so the panel can be rotated, but > that leaves more lead length than the cabinet will handle. >  > Our solution is to move all AC breakers out of the GSLC and into adjacent, > off-the-shelf load centers. >  > We put the minimum PV breakers in the panel, located at the top for > maximum latitude on tilting the panel out for access. We also pre-install > the breakers in the panel in a bench vise with extra lead length and > install the panel as a unit, hopefully never requiring access to the rear > again. >  > I applaud the GSLC as a decent product, but it does need improvement in > this area. >  > Sincerely, >  > William Miller >  >  > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 >  > Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" > Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" > Content-ID: > X-Attachment-Id: 29fc30ce3a67e929_0.1 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 13 11:05:13 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 08:05:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GSLC In-Reply-To: <20160513143744.A14E820801C@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160513143744.A14E820801C@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <0ED13016-A799-466A-AB21-65BBB0692E28@gmail.com> Hi Drake, Are you saying that the relays have failed or the breakers? Jay Peltz power. > On May 13, 2016, at 7:37 AM, Drake wrote: > > William and Wrenches, > > The lack of room in the GSLC becomes much worse when using the factory installed AC coupling "solution" using the Remote Operated Circuit Breaker or ROCB. This takes up 3 breaker spaces plus puts two relays under the breaker column. I had to change out the ROCB twice in the one system I installed. > > The ROCB "solution" takes AC coupling, which is essentially straight forward and complicates it exponentially. Plus the ROCB itself is prone to failure, which could ruin a set of batteries. There are numerous other serious problems with their approach. With "solutions" like this one, who needs problems! > > Drake > > At 02:52 PM 5/12/2016, you wrote: >> Wrenches: >>  >> The recent topic about bypass connections for the Radian is a very pertinent issue for anyone designing a Radian system. The problem is exacerbated by what I perceive is one poor design aspect of the GSLC cabinet. >>  >> I generally like the Radian series, including the GSLC. I do find it puzzling that installers are expected to make connections to the rear of panel mount circuit breakers. This has to be done blind and in very tight quarters. This is further complicated by the expectation that one will install AC and DC circuit breakers in the same panel. >>  >> We have tried leaving slack on the leads so the panel can be rotated, but that leaves more lead length than the cabinet will handle. >>  >> Our solution is to move all AC breakers out of the GSLC and into adjacent, off-the-shelf load centers. >>  >> We put the minimum PV breakers in the panel, located at the top for maximum latitude on tilting the panel out for access. We also pre-install the breakers in the panel in a bench vise with extra lead length and install the panel as a unit, hopefully never requiring access to the rear again. >>  >> I applaud the GSLC as a decent product, but it does need improvement in this area. >>  >> Sincerely, >>  >> William Miller >>  >>  >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >>  >> Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" >> Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" >> Content-ID: >> X-Attachment-Id: 29fc30ce3a67e929_0.1 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 13 11:56:45 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 11:56:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GSLC In-Reply-To: <0ED13016-A799-466A-AB21-65BBB0692E28@gmail.com> References: <20160513143744.A14E820801C@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> <0ED13016-A799-466A-AB21-65BBB0692E28@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160513155646.C656310B0C@che.dreamhost.com> The Remote Operating Circuit Breakers failed. At 11:05 AM 5/13/2016, you wrote: >Hi Drake, > >Are you saying that the relays have failed or the breakers? > >Jay >Peltz power. > > >On May 13, 2016, at 7:37 AM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: > >>William and Wrenches, >> >>The lack of room in the GSLC becomes much worse >>when using the factory installed AC coupling >>"solution" using the Remote Operated Circuit >>Breaker or ROCB. This takes up 3 breaker spaces >>plus puts two relays under the breaker column. >>I had to change out the ROCB twice in the one system I installed. >> >>The ROCB "solution" takes AC coupling, which is >>essentially straight forward and complicates it >>exponentially. Plus the ROCB itself is prone to >>failure, which could ruin a set of batteries. >>There are numerous other serious problems with >>their approach. With "solutions" like this one, who needs problems! >> >>Drake >> >>At 02:52 PM 5/12/2016, you wrote: >>>Wrenches: >>> >>>The recent topic about bypass connections for >>>the Radian is a very pertinent issue for >>>anyone designing a Radian system. The >>>problem is exacerbated by what I perceive is >>>one poor design aspect of the GSLC cabinet. >>> >>>I generally like the Radian series, including >>>the GSLC. I do find it puzzling that >>>installers are expected to make connections to >>>the rear of panel mount circuit >>>breakers. This has to be done blind and in >>>very tight quarters. This is further >>>complicated by the expectation that one will >>>install AC and DC circuit breakers in the same panel. >>> >>>We have tried leaving slack on the leads so >>>the panel can be rotated, but that leaves more >>>lead length than the cabinet will handle. >>> >>>Our solution is to move all AC breakers out of >>>the GSLC and into adjacent, off-the-shelf load centers. >>> >>>We put the minimum PV breakers in the panel, >>>located at the top for maximum latitude on >>>tilting the panel out for access. We also >>>pre-install the breakers in the panel in a >>>bench vise with extra lead length and install >>>the panel as a unit, hopefully never requiring access to the rear again. >>> >>>I applaud the GSLC as a decent product, but it >>>does need improvement in this area. >>> >>>Sincerely, >>> >>>William Miller >>> >>> >>>Gradient Cap_mini >>> >>>Lic 773985 >>>millersolar.com >>>805-438-5600 >>> >>>Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" >>>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" >>>Content-ID: >>>X-Attachment-Id: 29fc30ce3a67e929_0.1 >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 13 12:01:56 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:01:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GSLC In-Reply-To: References: <20160513143744.A14E820801C@homiemail-a57.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20160513160157.8AC6510B1A@che.dreamhost.com> The relay to protect the generator only works when the generator is automatically started! A manually started generator has no protection against backfeed. I had to set up a contactor to protect the generator from backfeed from the AC coupled array. At 11:14 AM 5/13/2016, you wrote: >BTW, the ROCB also uses both of your AUX relay >options. Got called in to evaluate a 6 Radian AC >Coupled configuration with no charger >controllers and 6 Fronuis. What a cluster >*%#%(^. The project was a very bad design from >the beginning. That's what happens when you ask >a grid tied installer to give you a battery back up solution. > >Christopher > >On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >William and Wrenches, > >The lack of room in the GSLC becomes much worse >when using the factory installed AC coupling >"solution" using the Remote Operated Circuit >Breaker or ROCB. This takes up 3 breaker spaces >plus puts two relays under the breaker column. I >had to change out the ROCB twice in the one system I installed. > >The ROCB "solution" takes AC coupling, which is >essentially straight forward and complicates it >exponentially. Plus the ROCB itself is prone to >failure, which could ruin a set of batteries. >There are numerous other serious problems with >their approach. With "solutions" like this one, who needs problems! > >Drake > >At 02:52 PM 5/12/2016, you wrote: >>Wrenches: >> >>The recent topic about bypass connections for >>the Radian is a very pertinent issue for anyone >>designing a Radian system. The problem is >>exacerbated by what I perceive is one poor >>design aspect of the GSLC cabinet. >> >>I generally like the Radian series, including >>the GSLC. I do find it puzzling that >>installers are expected to make connections to >>the rear of panel mount circuit >>breakers. This has to be done blind and in >>very tight quarters. This is further >>complicated by the expectation that one will >>install AC and DC circuit breakers in the same panel. >> >>We have tried leaving slack on the leads so the >>panel can be rotated, but that leaves more lead >>length than the cabinet will handle. >> >>Our solution is to move all AC breakers out of >>the GSLC and into adjacent, off-the-shelf load centers. >> >>We put the minimum PV breakers in the panel, >>located at the top for maximum latitude on >>tilting the panel out for access. We also >>pre-install the breakers in the panel in a >>bench vise with extra lead length and install >>the panel as a unit, hopefully never requiring access to the rear again. >> >>I applaud the GSLC as a decent product, but it >>does need improvement in this area. >> >>Sincerely, >> >>William Miller >> >> >> >>Lic 773985 >>millersolar.com >>805-438-5600 >> >>Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" >>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" >>Content-ID: >>X-Attachment-Id: 29fc30ce3a67e929_0.1 >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > >-- > >Chris Schaefer’s > >[] > >Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >www.solarandwindfx.com >~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > >[] > > >Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great >Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease >to exist when you take away from those who are >willing to work and give to those who would not." >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri May 13 12:38:26 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:38:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] multiple radian installation In-Reply-To: References: <7284036B-9A66-4413-AEBB-06C78579F79E@gmail.com> <34ca940e4fa305a6a5e7c830c5bdf9a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007a01d1ad35$e043d9b0$a0cb8d10$@icloud.com> I believe the Radian docs specifically state with multiple units you must use an external switch, the point being to switch all units simultaneously. Otherwise damage can result. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 2:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] multiple radian installation Wrenches An external transfer switch seems to be the best solution so far. Jerry On May 11, 2016 9:33 AM, "jay" wrote: HI All, I’m curious how folks are doing the AC bypass and AC side on a 3 radian 240v setup? I”m leaning on doing an external transfer switch, but curious what others have done. thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wayne at pureenergysolar.com Fri May 13 13:31:05 2016 From: wayne at pureenergysolar.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:31:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase without internet In-Reply-To: <9FB1BF38-508B-47D0-83BF-656A75FF8108@gmail.com> References: , , , <9FB1BF38-508B-47D0-83BF-656A75FF8108@gmail.com> Message-ID: We have included an analog meter to help provide some data in similar situations. This seems to make the customer happy, especially when they see the "solar meter" spinning. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 07:02:37 -0700 To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase without internet I know you can connect a laptop to the envoy and type in the IP address and download info. It's been five or six years since I've done this but it does work. Michael D NelsonMD Electric & Solar, Inc.707-684-0064 mobile707-884-1862 officewww.mdelectricsolar.comSent from my iPhone On May 12, 2016, at 7:54 PM, frenergy wrote: I'm not getting an email response from Enphase (and their phone wait time has certainly increased), regarding off-internet monitoring. There is very little performance info on the Envoy. Many of my rural customers cannot or are just not interested in having their system with its performance on the internet via Enlighten. I'm trying to find out if I can bring my laptop (loaded with Enlighten?) to their Envoy and download their system info (with history) for my and their records, maybe stored on an SD card or a file on their computer. I understand the drawbacks of this occasional performance check but after a month or two, very very few of my customers, string or micro check or know what their system is doing.... until (very rarely) a power bill comes in at $200. CALL BILL!! Your thoughts? -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 13 17:02:43 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 14:02:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection In-Reply-To: References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <05DFF0B3-2915-4C59-BC5A-4CC880CA0924@gmail.com> Has any one used the Milbank tap connectors? Or maybe get them approved by the utility? It would require meter removal, but seems to be a good alternative to a piercing connector. thanks jay Peltz power From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Fri May 13 18:38:10 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 15:38:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection In-Reply-To: <05DFF0B3-2915-4C59-BC5A-4CC880CA0924@gmail.com> References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> <05DFF0B3-2915-4C59-BC5A-4CC880CA0924@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003701d1ad68$21a28c80$64e7a580$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I believe Milbank is one of the manus that sells a meter enclosure that is listed for supply-side connections. I bought an enclosure a while ago that was not only listed but came with an extra pair of lugs. I will research the matter and confirm Milbank or provide the correct manu. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 2:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection Has any one used the Milbank tap connectors? Or maybe get them approved by the utility? It would require meter removal, but seems to be a good alternative to a piercing connector. thanks jay Peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Fri May 13 19:53:24 2016 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 23:53:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection In-Reply-To: <003701d1ad68$21a28c80$64e7a580$@parrish@calsolareng.com> References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> <05DFF0B3-2915-4C59-BC5A-4CC880CA0924@gmail.com> <003701d1ad68$21a28c80$64e7a580$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: <1131058926.2174659.1463183604682.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> We us: Ilsco - IPC-4/0-6, Insulation Piercing, Splicer Reducers, Splicing & Terminating Kits, Connectors, Crimps, Termination - Platt Electric Supply | | | Ilsco - IPC-4/0-6, Insulation Piercing, Splicer Reducers, Splicing & Terminating Kits, Connectors, Crimps, Termin... Ilsco IPC-4/0-6 4 to 4/0 AWG Insulation Piercing Connector Insulation Piercing Connector, Main Conductor Range: ... | | |   Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Friday, May 13, 2016 3:38 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I believe Milbank is one of the manus that sells a meter enclosure that is listed for supply-side connections. I bought an enclosure a while ago that was not only listed but came with an extra pair of lugs. I will research the matter and confirm Milbank or provide the correct manu. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 2:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection Has any one used the Milbank tap connectors? Or maybe get them approved by the utility? It would require meter removal, but seems to be a good alternative to a piercing connector. thanks jay Peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 16 03:15:28 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 03:15:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen 205 or 200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looking for a "new" or used Evergreen module to replace a broken one. Please contact me off list if you have one available. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Mon May 16 09:55:33 2016 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 13:55:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection In-Reply-To: <05DFF0B3-2915-4C59-BC5A-4CC880CA0924@gmail.com> References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> <05DFF0B3-2915-4C59-BC5A-4CC880CA0924@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, I've used the Milbank K4977 taps for a few supply side connections in Milbank meter sockets. They make for a fast and clean connection. I would highly recommend them as long the utility will allow it. Best, Garrison Garrison Riegel Solar Service Inc -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 4:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection Has any one used the Milbank tap connectors? Or maybe get them approved by the utility? It would require meter removal, but seems to be a good alternative to a piercing connector. thanks jay Peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Mon May 16 15:57:54 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:57:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability Message-ID: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> Friends: We just installed our first Optics RE systems. They are both at the same location connected to a satellite data system. In the three weeks these two systems have been on line, they have become disconnected several times. The latest time both Mates disconnected but we were able to reconnect one by remotely rebooting the router. I have invested a lot of money, time and reputation on these systems. I am hoping reliability improves. I am on a long hold with Outback right now in an attempt to trouble shoot. I am guessing the resolution will be a two hour drive each way to unplug and plug the Cat5 cable in. Ten minutes later: I received helpful information from Outback tech support, as usual. I will be swapping Mates to see if the trouble moves, etc. I will also be setting the auto reboot function. Can anyone else suggest how to resolve these issues? What experience have the remainder of you had with the Optics RE system? Is it reliable for you? Thanks in advance, William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Mon May 16 16:43:45 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 16:43:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability In-Reply-To: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Our Optics systems spend more time offline than online. Outback continually provides good technical support but they are unable to permanently resolve this connection issue. Luckily we only have a couple Optics systems but we have been dealing with this same issue for around a year. In most instances, upgrading firmware resolves the issue. They seem to update that every other week. Sometimes upgrading firmware can cause the issue as happened to me Friday. I have been avoiding selling Optics systems. Connectivity issues are still our major issue with almost all monitoring platforms but while others are starting to get it right, Outback is still having difficulty. Matt On Mon, May 16, 2016 3:57 pm, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > > We just installed our first Optics RE systems. They are both at the same > location connected to a satellite data system. In the three weeks these > two systems have been on line, they have become disconnected several > times. The latest time both Mates disconnected but we were able to > reconnect one by remotely rebooting the router. > > > > I have invested a lot of money, time and reputation on these systems. I > am hoping reliability improves. I am on a long hold with Outback right > now in an attempt to trouble shoot. I am guessing the resolution will be a > two hour drive each way to unplug and plug the Cat5 cable in. > > > > Ten minutes later: I received helpful information from Outback tech > support, as usual. I will be swapping Mates to see if the trouble moves, > etc. I will also be setting the auto reboot function. > > > > Can anyone else suggest how to resolve these issues? > > > > > What experience have the remainder of you had with the Optics RE system? > Is > it reliable for you? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon May 16 16:16:47 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability In-Reply-To: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Our other significant experience has been that the Mate3 will stop drawing graphs after a few days, but I don't have the latest firmware add I am traveling and have not had time. On May 16, 2016 4:07 PM, "William Miller" wrote: > Friends: > > > > We just installed our first Optics RE systems. They are both at the same > location connected to a satellite data system. In the three weeks these > two systems have been on line, they have become disconnected several > times. The latest time both Mates disconnected but we were able to > reconnect one by remotely rebooting the router. > > > > I have invested a lot of money, time and reputation on these systems. I > am hoping reliability improves. I am on a long hold with Outback right now > in an attempt to trouble shoot. I am guessing the resolution will be a two > hour drive each way to unplug and plug the Cat5 cable in. > > > > Ten minutes later: I received helpful information from Outback tech > support, as usual. I will be swapping Mates to see if the trouble moves, > etc. I will also be setting the auto reboot function. > > > > Can anyone else suggest how to resolve these issues? > > > > What experience have the remainder of you had with the Optics RE system? > Is it reliable for you? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon May 16 16:14:55 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 16:14:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability In-Reply-To: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: We have reported to Outback that the Mate3 OpticsRE will stop reporting if the internet goes down for a while. In the Caribbean, we have some outages and the M3 does not handle them well. I think there is an option to reboot the M3 daily, I would try that. You can be pretty sure it is not a cable failure. On May 16, 2016 4:07 PM, "William Miller" wrote: > Friends: > > > > We just installed our first Optics RE systems. They are both at the same > location connected to a satellite data system. In the three weeks these > two systems have been on line, they have become disconnected several > times. The latest time both Mates disconnected but we were able to > reconnect one by remotely rebooting the router. > > > > I have invested a lot of money, time and reputation on these systems. I > am hoping reliability improves. I am on a long hold with Outback right now > in an attempt to trouble shoot. I am guessing the resolution will be a two > hour drive each way to unplug and plug the Cat5 cable in. > > > > Ten minutes later: I received helpful information from Outback tech > support, as usual. I will be swapping Mates to see if the trouble moves, > etc. I will also be setting the auto reboot function. > > > > Can anyone else suggest how to resolve these issues? > > > > What experience have the remainder of you had with the Optics RE system? > Is it reliable for you? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Mon May 16 17:32:50 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 16:32:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal Camera for PV Troubleshooting? In-Reply-To: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Fellow Wrenches, Has anyone made use of any InfraRed (Thermal) cameras for diagnosing module performance faults? Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Mon May 16 17:37:07 2016 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 14:37:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability In-Reply-To: References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <076001d1afbb$197099d0$4c51cd70$@gmail.com> We have been having problems with the Mate 3 Optics RE since we installed it at the beginning of 2014. Ours is a battery backup system for a grid tied install. We just got off the phone with Outback this morning after upgrading to Rev. 15 two months ago and we are still having the going offline issue. Currently we have only been able to keep the monitoring running for about half a month and then it needs to be manually rebooted even with the 4-hour reboot function activated. This morning we went out to the site to replace the original Mate 3 and tech support told us we would lose all historic data on the site - We had to pull off again. The only saving grace is the solar system is still working as planned providing power to the back-up system we just can’t see the metrics and this is the last thing we expected from Outback when we made the choice to utilize the Radian system instead of the SMA sunny Island. From what I can tell Outback released their new system without sufficiently beta testing the monitoring and we are all paying for it. Gary Rochlin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 1:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability We have reported to Outback that the Mate3 OpticsRE will stop reporting if the internet goes down for a while. In the Caribbean, we have some outages and the M3 does not handle them well. I think there is an option to reboot the M3 daily, I would try that. You can be pretty sure it is not a cable failure. On May 16, 2016 4:07 PM, "William Miller" > wrote: Friends: We just installed our first Optics RE systems. They are both at the same location connected to a satellite data system. In the three weeks these two systems have been on line, they have become disconnected several times. The latest time both Mates disconnected but we were able to reconnect one by remotely rebooting the router. I have invested a lot of money, time and reputation on these systems. I am hoping reliability improves. I am on a long hold with Outback right now in an attempt to trouble shoot. I am guessing the resolution will be a two hour drive each way to unplug and plug the Cat5 cable in. Ten minutes later: I received helpful information from Outback tech support, as usual. I will be swapping Mates to see if the trouble moves, etc. I will also be setting the auto reboot function. Can anyone else suggest how to resolve these issues? What experience have the remainder of you had with the Optics RE system? Is it reliable for you? Thanks in advance, William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon May 16 17:39:21 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:39:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hermal Camera for PV Troubleshooting? In-Reply-To: References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <035101d1afbb$69d61d00$3d825700$@com> Yes, Bill.I'd recommend going with a Flir. You should be able to find a Flir 4 for something around $1,000 on eBay. This tool is invaluable when it comes to identifying hot spots. Now getting the manufacturer to do anything about it without pulling the mods out of the string and testing the *&^% out of them..that's a separate issue. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 11:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal Camera for PV Troubleshooting? Fellow Wrenches, Has anyone made use of any InfraRed (Thermal) cameras for diagnosing module performance faults? Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 Image removed by sender. Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD154.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon May 16 18:10:13 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 15:10:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hermal Camera for PV Troubleshooting? In-Reply-To: <035101d1afbb$69d61d00$3d825700$@com> References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> <035101d1afbb$69d61d00$3d825700$@com> Message-ID: We use several FLIRs here at MidNite... Invaluable tool for LOTS of reasons. You can by a FLIR E4: 80 x 60 resolution brand new on Amazon for $925. There are other deals for less than this as Marco pointed out, too. boB On 5/16/2016 2:39 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Yes, Bill…I’d recommend going with a Flir. You should be able to find > a Flir 4 for something around $1,000 on eBay. > > This tool is invaluable when it comes to identifying hot spots. Now > getting the manufacturer to do anything about it without pulling the > mods out of the string and testing the *&^% out of them….that’s a > separate issue. > > marco > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Bill Loesch > *Sent:* Monday, May 16, 2016 11:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Thermal Camera for PV Troubleshooting? > > > Fellow Wrenches, > > Has anyone made use of any InfraRed (Thermal) cameras for diagnosing > module performance faults? > > Thanks, > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > Image removed by sender. > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon May 16 18:05:46 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 15:05:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability In-Reply-To: <076001d1afbb$197099d0$4c51cd70$@gmail.com> References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> <076001d1afbb$197099d0$4c51cd70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1a5001d1afbf$19b39970$4d1acc50$@millersolar.com> Gary: Are you able to reliably re-establish connectivity by rebooting the Mate3? I was informed today that the power to the Mate3 is on the Orange/White pair. I have the ability to control a relay remotely that could open a relay on these leads. If this will reestablish communications, then this might be a solution. (The device has a ping function wherein you can program it to ping an IP address and perform a prescribed action if the ping fails after a programmable number of attempts over a programmable time period.) Thanks, William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Rochlin Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 2:37 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability We have been having problems with the Mate 3 Optics RE since we installed it at the beginning of 2014. Ours is a battery backup system for a grid tied install. We just got off the phone with Outback this morning after upgrading to Rev. 15 two months ago and we are still having the going offline issue. Currently we have only been able to keep the monitoring running for about half a month and then it needs to be manually rebooted even with the 4-hour reboot function activated. This morning we went out to the site to replace the original Mate 3 and tech support told us we would lose all historic data on the site - We had to pull off again. The only saving grace is the solar system is still working as planned providing power to the back-up system we just can’t see the metrics and this is the last thing we expected from Outback when we made the choice to utilize the Radian system instead of the SMA sunny Island. From what I can tell Outback released their new system without sufficiently beta testing the monitoring and we are all paying for it. Gary Rochlin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 1:15 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability We have reported to Outback that the Mate3 OpticsRE will stop reporting if the internet goes down for a while. In the Caribbean, we have some outages and the M3 does not handle them well. I think there is an option to reboot the M3 daily, I would try that. You can be pretty sure it is not a cable failure. On May 16, 2016 4:07 PM, "William Miller" > wrote: Friends: We just installed our first Optics RE systems. They are both at the same location connected to a satellite data system. In the three weeks these two systems have been on line, they have become disconnected several times. The latest time both Mates disconnected but we were able to reconnect one by remotely rebooting the router. I have invested a lot of money, time and reputation on these systems. I am hoping reliability improves. I am on a long hold with Outback right now in an attempt to trouble shoot. I am guessing the resolution will be a two hour drive each way to unplug and plug the Cat5 cable in. Ten minutes later: I received helpful information from Outback tech support, as usual. I will be swapping Mates to see if the trouble moves, etc. I will also be setting the auto reboot function. Can anyone else suggest how to resolve these issues? What experience have the remainder of you had with the Optics RE system? Is it reliable for you? Thanks in advance, William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Mon May 16 18:24:52 2016 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 15:24:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability In-Reply-To: <1a5001d1afbf$19b39970$4d1acc50$@millersolar.com> References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> <076001d1afbb$197099d0$4c51cd70$@gmail.com> <1a5001d1afbf$19b39970$4d1acc50$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <07b901d1afc1$c50604f0$4f120ed0$@gmail.com> Yes, by manually disconnecting the power but as mentioned not with the auto reboot with Rev. 15. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 3:06 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability Gary: Are you able to reliably re-establish connectivity by rebooting the Mate3? I was informed today that the power to the Mate3 is on the Orange/White pair. I have the ability to control a relay remotely that could open a relay on these leads. If this will reestablish communications, then this might be a solution. (The device has a ping function wherein you can program it to ping an IP address and perform a prescribed action if the ping fails after a programmable number of attempts over a programmable time period.) Thanks, William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Rochlin Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 2:37 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability We have been having problems with the Mate 3 Optics RE since we installed it at the beginning of 2014. Ours is a battery backup system for a grid tied install. We just got off the phone with Outback this morning after upgrading to Rev. 15 two months ago and we are still having the going offline issue. Currently we have only been able to keep the monitoring running for about half a month and then it needs to be manually rebooted even with the 4-hour reboot function activated. This morning we went out to the site to replace the original Mate 3 and tech support told us we would lose all historic data on the site - We had to pull off again. The only saving grace is the solar system is still working as planned providing power to the back-up system we just can’t see the metrics and this is the last thing we expected from Outback when we made the choice to utilize the Radian system instead of the SMA sunny Island. From what I can tell Outback released their new system without sufficiently beta testing the monitoring and we are all paying for it. Gary Rochlin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 1:15 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability We have reported to Outback that the Mate3 OpticsRE will stop reporting if the internet goes down for a while. In the Caribbean, we have some outages and the M3 does not handle them well. I think there is an option to reboot the M3 daily, I would try that. You can be pretty sure it is not a cable failure. On May 16, 2016 4:07 PM, "William Miller" > wrote: Friends: We just installed our first Optics RE systems. They are both at the same location connected to a satellite data system. In the three weeks these two systems have been on line, they have become disconnected several times. The latest time both Mates disconnected but we were able to reconnect one by remotely rebooting the router. I have invested a lot of money, time and reputation on these systems. I am hoping reliability improves. I am on a long hold with Outback right now in an attempt to trouble shoot. I am guessing the resolution will be a two hour drive each way to unplug and plug the Cat5 cable in. Ten minutes later: I received helpful information from Outback tech support, as usual. I will be swapping Mates to see if the trouble moves, etc. I will also be setting the auto reboot function. Can anyone else suggest how to resolve these issues? What experience have the remainder of you had with the Optics RE system? Is it reliable for you? Thanks in advance, William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon May 16 20:13:50 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 14:13:50 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hermal Camera for PV Troubleshooting? In-Reply-To: References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> <035101d1afbb$69d61d00$3d825700$@com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Talk to Flir, sometimes they got demos, sales or upgrades, l had one of there higher end models ands it has more detail then my 1000 dollar one does. Flir has lease deals too. Jerry On May 16, 2016 12:10 PM, "bob at midnitesolar.com" wrote: > > We use several FLIRs here at MidNite... Invaluable tool for LOTS of > reasons. > > You can by a FLIR E4: 80 x 60 resolution brand new on Amazon for $925. > > There are other deals for less than this as Marco pointed out, too. > > boB > > On 5/16/2016 2:39 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Yes, Bill…I’d recommend going with a Flir. You should be able to find a > Flir 4 for something around $1,000 on eBay. > > > > This tool is invaluable when it comes to identifying hot spots. Now > getting the manufacturer to do anything about it without pulling the mods > out of the string and testing the *&^% out of them….that’s a separate issue. > > > > marco > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Bill Loesch > *Sent:* Monday, May 16, 2016 11:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Thermal Camera for PV Troubleshooting? > > > > > Fellow Wrenches, > > Has anyone made use of any InfraRed (Thermal) cameras for diagnosing > module performance faults? > > Thanks, > > Bill Loesch > > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > > 314 631 1094 > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon May 16 20:30:16 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 18:30:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal Camera for PV Troubleshooting? In-Reply-To: References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <573A6618.3060504@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon May 16 21:28:24 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 19:28:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal Camera for PV Troubleshooting? In-Reply-To: <573A6618.3060504@sindelarsolar.com> References: <4dcc01d1afad$3d2ff090$b78fd1b0$@millersolar.com> <573A6618.3060504@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I have the Seek unit also. Works great for the price. You can save images and videos. It has so far found for me questionable connections on 2 different battery installs, a poorly torqued charge controller output terminal, and a skunk hiding under my back porch. The unit paid for itself very quickly. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Bill, > If you are looking for a less sophisticated and less expensive unit, I > recently purchased (on Amazon) a Seek Compact Thermal Imager that plugs > into the port on my iPhone for $236. A downloaded app runs it, and it shows > thermal images on the phone's screen. To date I have done little more than > test it out; it showed thermal images very well, and may be all you need > for troubleshooting. I think the phone can photograph the images for a > record. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 5/16/2016 3:32 PM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > > Fellow Wrenches, > > Has anyone made use of any InfraRed (Thermal) cameras for diagnosing > module performance faults? > > Thanks, > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094 > > > > > Virus-free. > > > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue May 17 01:15:37 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 05:15:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability / conext combox & portal Message-ID: <927f7db1a93f4376adb69cb958c099b5@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hello Wrenches, Deep appreciation for saving me much time and hassle in beta testing products that are released to market prematurely. Happy to report that the Conext Combox and the Conext Insight portal from Schneider is working very well for me it is a robust remote control, monitoring datalogging solution. Connectivity on sites is varied from satellite, cell modem, and dsl and the system is solid. No issues with it not coming back online. Connections drop regularly and all comes back when the connection is back. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Rochlin Sent: May-16-16 3:25 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability Yes, by manually disconnecting the power but as mentioned not with the auto reboot with Rev. 15. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 3:06 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability Gary: Are you able to reliably re-establish connectivity by rebooting the Mate3? I was informed today that the power to the Mate3 is on the Orange/White pair. I have the ability to control a relay remotely that could open a relay on these leads. If this will reestablish communications, then this might be a solution. (The device has a ping function wherein you can program it to ping an IP address and perform a prescribed action if the ping fails after a programmable number of attempts over a programmable time period.) Thanks, William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Rochlin Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 2:37 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability We have been having problems with the Mate 3 Optics RE since we installed it at the beginning of 2014. Ours is a battery backup system for a grid tied install. We just got off the phone with Outback this morning after upgrading to Rev. 15 two months ago and we are still having the going offline issue. Currently we have only been able to keep the monitoring running for about half a month and then it needs to be manually rebooted even with the 4-hour reboot function activated. This morning we went out to the site to replace the original Mate 3 and tech support told us we would lose all historic data on the site - We had to pull off again. The only saving grace is the solar system is still working as planned providing power to the back-up system we just can’t see the metrics and this is the last thing we expected from Outback when we made the choice to utilize the Radian system instead of the SMA sunny Island. From what I can tell Outback released their new system without sufficiently beta testing the monitoring and we are all paying for it. Gary Rochlin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 1:15 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE reliability We have reported to Outback that the Mate3 OpticsRE will stop reporting if the internet goes down for a while. In the Caribbean, we have some outages and the M3 does not handle them well. I think there is an option to reboot the M3 daily, I would try that. You can be pretty sure it is not a cable failure. On May 16, 2016 4:07 PM, "William Miller" > wrote: Friends: We just installed our first Optics RE systems. They are both at the same location connected to a satellite data system. In the three weeks these two systems have been on line, they have become disconnected several times. The latest time both Mates disconnected but we were able to reconnect one by remotely rebooting the router. I have invested a lot of money, time and reputation on these systems. I am hoping reliability improves. I am on a long hold with Outback right now in an attempt to trouble shoot. I am guessing the resolution will be a two hour drive each way to unplug and plug the Cat5 cable in. Ten minutes later: I received helpful information from Outback tech support, as usual. I will be swapping Mates to see if the trouble moves, etc. I will also be setting the auto reboot function. Can anyone else suggest how to resolve these issues? What experience have the remainder of you had with the Optics RE system? Is it reliable for you? Thanks in advance, William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue May 17 18:52:51 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 17:52:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] !000 volt wire for trench-buried extended runs - what type? Message-ID: <04a001d1b08e$d7c6f540$8754dfc0$@solarcentex.com> Good day, wrenches. I am installing four dual axis trackers totaling 52KW (13KW per) to four individual Fronius Primo 12.5 Primo's. We've done this setup before except this time, we'll mount the inverter at the meter instead of carrying inverting at the tracker and carrying 240 volt over a 300+ foot ground run for the four combined trackers. And to the heart of this question, we'll run under 1,000 volt rules for this commercial ranch setup. Goal is to user higher voltages and minimize amps running through conductors. So my project is: 4 each 13KW trackers Each tracker is 3 strings of 14 modules and about 705Voc and 520 Vmp. This combined 3-string output for each tracker will have Isc of 8.89 x 3 = apc 27 amps We'll pull each set of tracker conductors (4 trackers, plus one more run for a 5th tracker) so 10 +/- conductors. I've done the necessary conditions of use derates. The big question is what would you select as this 1,000 volt rated wire for conduit covered installation? PV Wire will get mighty expensive and I don't even know if I'll find in 4AWG. I ran into this one time before and we just did multiple strings to keep in the 600volt category but I don't want to do here because that means I double the number of conductors (and go from 3200 to 6400 feet of wire.String math and MPP ranges keep me at strings of 14. I want to centrally mount the inverters instead of one at each tracker for looks and reduce 240 wire sizing. What type cable would you use? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com www.solarcentex.com https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex http://www.solarreviews.com/installers/solar-centex-reviews/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 48547 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue May 17 22:22:03 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 21:22:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection In-Reply-To: <05DFF0B3-2915-4C59-BC5A-4CC880CA0924@gmail.com> References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> <05DFF0B3-2915-4C59-BC5A-4CC880CA0924@gmail.com> Message-ID: Excel in Wisconsin approves the milbank connectors. I have also had other utilities approve a dual sided entry insulated splice block (Polaris). Kris On May 13, 2016 4:50 PM, "jay" wrote: > Has any one used the Milbank tap connectors? > Or maybe get them approved by the utility? > > It would require meter removal, but seems to be a good alternative to a > piercing connector. > > thanks > > jay > > Peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Wed May 18 08:12:00 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 08:12:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] !000 volt wire for trench-buried extended runs - what type? In-Reply-To: <04a001d1b08e$d7c6f540$8754dfc0$@solarcentex.com> References: <04a001d1b08e$d7c6f540$8754dfc0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <567b8615415d3dacb634e22fef5f8758.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> You will probably use PVwire. As far as I am aware it will be your least expensive option. Get it in aluminum, direct-burial rated if you want. Or pre-sleeved in PVC conduit. Matt On Tue, May 17, 2016 6:52 pm, Howard Arey wrote: > Good day, wrenches. > > > > > I am installing four dual axis trackers totaling 52KW (13KW per) to four > individual Fronius Primo 12.5 Primo's. We've done this setup before > except this time, we'll mount the inverter at the meter instead of > carrying inverting at the tracker and carrying 240 volt over a 300+ foot > ground run for the four combined trackers. And to the heart of this > question, we'll run under 1,000 volt rules for this commercial ranch > setup. Goal is to user higher voltages and minimize amps running through > conductors. > > > > So my project is: > > > > > 4 each 13KW trackers > > > Each tracker is 3 strings of 14 modules and about 705Voc and 520 Vmp. > This > combined 3-string output for each tracker will have Isc of 8.89 x 3 = apc > 27 > amps > > We'll pull each set of tracker conductors (4 trackers, plus one more run > for a 5th tracker) so 10 +/- conductors. I've done the necessary > conditions of use derates. > > > > The big question is what would you select as this 1,000 volt rated wire > for conduit covered installation? PV Wire will get mighty expensive and I > don't even know if I'll find in 4AWG. > > > > I ran into this one time before and we just did multiple strings to keep > in the 600volt category but I don't want to do here because that means I > double the number of conductors (and go from 3200 to 6400 feet of > wire.String math and MPP ranges keep me at strings of 14. > > > > I want to centrally mount the inverters instead of one at each tracker > for looks and reduce 240 wire sizing. > > > > What type cable would you use? > > > > > Howard "Scot" Arey > > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > > 254-300-1228 > > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > www.solarcentex.com > > https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex > > > http://www.solarreviews.com/installers/solar-centex-reviews/ > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed May 18 07:06:29 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 07:06:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] !000 volt wire for trench-buried extended runs - what type? In-Reply-To: <04a001d1b08e$d7c6f540$8754dfc0$@solarcentex.com> References: <04a001d1b08e$d7c6f540$8754dfc0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: How about this http://www.nassauelectrical.com/products/teck-cable-armored-with-pvc-jacket/teck-90-armoured-power-single-conductor-1000v-xlpe-pvc-aia-pvc On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Howard Arey wrote: > Good day, wrenches. > > > > I am installing four dual axis trackers totaling 52KW (13KW per) to four > individual Fronius Primo 12.5 Primo’s. We’ve done this setup before except > this time, we’ll mount the inverter at the meter instead of carrying > inverting at the tracker and carrying 240 volt over a 300+ foot ground run > for the four combined trackers. And to the heart of this question, we’ll > run under 1,000 volt rules for this commercial ranch setup. Goal is to user > higher voltages and minimize amps running through conductors. > > > > So my project is: > > > > 4 each 13KW trackers > > Each tracker is 3 strings of 14 modules and about 705Voc and 520 Vmp. This > combined 3-string output for each tracker will have Isc of 8.89 x 3 = apc > 27 amps > > We’ll pull each set of tracker conductors (4 trackers, plus one more run > for a 5th tracker) so 10 +/- conductors. I’ve done the necessary > conditions of use derates. > > > > The big question is what would you select as this 1,000 volt rated wire > for conduit covered installation? PV Wire will get mighty expensive and I > don’t even know if I’ll find in 4AWG. > > > > I ran into this one time before and we just did multiple strings to keep > in the 600volt category but I don’t want to do here because that means I > double the number of conductors (and go from 3200 to 6400 feet of > wire…String math and MPP ranges keep me at strings of 14. > > > > I want to centrally mount the inverters instead of one at each tracker for > looks and reduce 240 wire sizing. > > > > What type cable would you use? > > > > *Howard “Scot” Arey* > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > www.solarcentex.com > > https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex > > http://www.solarreviews.com/installers/solar-centex-reviews/ > > > > [image: Solar Centex Logo - No Back.png 10 percent resize] > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 48547 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Wed May 18 09:51:24 2016 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 09:51:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V underground wire Message-ID: I'm with Chris Mason on this one. Teck 90 cable is great stuff. No more screwing around with rigid PVC conduit and solvent glue in the bottom of a trench. No more backbreaking wire pulls. It is impervious to almost anything, direct burial, concrete encasement, wet location, whatever. Just roll it out and drop it in the trench. You'll be done before the backhoe operator finishes his cigarette. The cost per foot isn't that much over wire and conduit and the time and hassle savings are huge. As you can tell, I'm a convert. Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Solar Gain, LLC Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed May 18 10:31:17 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 10:31:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V underground wire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd rent a trencher and cut a 4 inch wide trench, drop it and and cover. On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Hilton Dier wrote: > I'm with Chris Mason on this one. Teck 90 cable is great stuff. No more > screwing around with rigid PVC conduit and solvent glue in the bottom of a > trench. No more backbreaking wire pulls. It is impervious to almost > anything, direct burial, concrete encasement, wet location, whatever. Just > roll it out and drop it in the trench. You'll be done before the backhoe > operator finishes his cigarette. > > The cost per foot isn't that much over wire and conduit and the time and > hassle savings are huge. As you can tell, I'm a convert. > > Hilton > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Solar Gain, LLC > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 18 14:33:04 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 11:33:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 volt wire for trench-buried extended runs - what type? In-Reply-To: <04a001d1b08e$d7c6f540$8754dfc0$@solarcentex.com> References: <04a001d1b08e$d7c6f540$8754dfc0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <84ACFE6A-C3F7-4EE3-87A4-BC41D9E33100@gmail.com> HI Scot, I”ve pretty cavalier on lots of things. But for this, I would use conduit and wire. I just think the added protection, being able to pull out wire in case etc. I do like the armored cable that was discussed, but that stuff is expensive and the ends are quite expensive. I buy my cable from Bryan at PV cables, you might give him a call for pricing. Jay peltz power > On May 17, 2016, at 3:52 PM, Howard Arey wrote: > > Good day, wrenches. > > I am installing four dual axis trackers totaling 52KW (13KW per) to four individual Fronius Primo 12.5 Primo’s. We’ve done this setup before except this time, we’ll mount the inverter at the meter instead of carrying inverting at the tracker and carrying 240 volt over a 300+ foot ground run for the four combined trackers. And to the heart of this question, we’ll run under 1,000 volt rules for this commercial ranch setup. Goal is to user higher voltages and minimize amps running through conductors. > > So my project is: > > 4 each 13KW trackers > Each tracker is 3 strings of 14 modules and about 705Voc and 520 Vmp. This combined 3-string output for each tracker will have Isc of 8.89 x 3 = apc 27 amps > We’ll pull each set of tracker conductors (4 trackers, plus one more run for a 5th tracker) so 10 +/- conductors. I’ve done the necessary conditions of use derates. > > The big question is what would you select as this 1,000 volt rated wire for conduit covered installation? PV Wire will get mighty expensive and I don’t even know if I’ll find in 4AWG. > > I ran into this one time before and we just did multiple strings to keep in the 600volt category but I don’t want to do here because that means I double the number of conductors (and go from 3200 to 6400 feet of wire…String math and MPP ranges keep me at strings of 14. > > I want to centrally mount the inverters instead of one at each tracker for looks and reduce 240 wire sizing. > > What type cable would you use? > > Howard “Scot” Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > 254-300-1228 > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > www.solarcentex.com > https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex > http://www.solarreviews.com/installers/solar-centex-reviews/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed May 18 18:21:49 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 17:21:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 volt wire for trench-buried extended runs - what type? In-Reply-To: <84ACFE6A-C3F7-4EE3-87A4-BC41D9E33100@gmail.com> References: <04a001d1b08e$d7c6f540$8754dfc0$@solarcentex.com> <84ACFE6A-C3F7-4EE3-87A4-BC41D9E33100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02aa01d1b153$ac7362a0$055a27e0$@solarcentex.com> We’re going traditional on this system. Wires in real schedule 40 always strike me as a safe, smart thing. Still, I’ll check this other wire out and I might be pleasantly surprised. Scot From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 1:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 volt wire for trench-buried extended runs - what type? HI Scot, I”ve pretty cavalier on lots of things. But for this, I would use conduit and wire. I just think the added protection, being able to pull out wire in case etc. I do like the armored cable that was discussed, but that stuff is expensive and the ends are quite expensive. I buy my cable from Bryan at PV cables, you might give him a call for pricing. Jay peltz power On May 17, 2016, at 3:52 PM, Howard Arey > wrote: Good day, wrenches. I am installing four dual axis trackers totaling 52KW (13KW per) to four individual Fronius Primo 12.5 Primo’s. We’ve done this setup before except this time, we’ll mount the inverter at the meter instead of carrying inverting at the tracker and carrying 240 volt over a 300+ foot ground run for the four combined trackers. And to the heart of this question, we’ll run under 1,000 volt rules for this commercial ranch setup. Goal is to user higher voltages and minimize amps running through conductors. So my project is: 4 each 13KW trackers Each tracker is 3 strings of 14 modules and about 705Voc and 520 Vmp. This combined 3-string output for each tracker will have Isc of 8.89 x 3 = apc 27 amps We’ll pull each set of tracker conductors (4 trackers, plus one more run for a 5th tracker) so 10 +/- conductors. I’ve done the necessary conditions of use derates. The big question is what would you select as this 1,000 volt rated wire for conduit covered installation? PV Wire will get mighty expensive and I don’t even know if I’ll find in 4AWG. I ran into this one time before and we just did multiple strings to keep in the 600volt category but I don’t want to do here because that means I double the number of conductors (and go from 3200 to 6400 feet of wire…String math and MPP ranges keep me at strings of 14. I want to centrally mount the inverters instead of one at each tracker for looks and reduce 240 wire sizing. What type cable would you use? Howard “Scot” Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com www.solarcentex.com https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex http://www.solarreviews.com/installers/solar-centex-reviews/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed May 18 21:22:16 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 01:22:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stolen modules, what to do? Message-ID: I was at a site today that had four out of the 50 modules removed recently by thieves. Can anyone recommend a good alternative to the Unirac hardware? I mean like tamperproof security hardware? It has T-bolts with top clamps utilized. Of course it is a ground mount and is easily accessible. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu May 19 00:11:06 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 22:11:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stolen modules, what to do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SolarPro magazine has a great article on the topic in 2012 by Rebekah Hren: http://solarprofessional.com/articles/operations-maintenance/security-and-theft-prevention?v=disable_pagination Just like the lock on your house front door, standard "tamper-resistant" fasteners keep out only the casual thief, as almost every special driver bit is available on Amazon, and some even at Ace Hardware in multi-kits. You can certainly go as far as expensive custom-key-bitted fasteners from Bryce, but a minimally-talented thief with cordless angle grinder and/or bandsaw will defeat just about anything in a remote area if there is nobody around to observe and report it. Can't even grind off the nut or the bolt? Just grind off a whole section of aluminum rail, some aluminum feet, and load up all 4 modules in the back of the pickup truck with rack still attached, cover with a blue tarp for the drive home. Aluminium cuts like buttah. Remove the expensive "tamper-proof" fasteners later over a couple beers. A combination of the techniques in that article, tailored to your specific location and installation regarding exclusion and monitoring, would be your best bet in my opinion. And be sure to follow up with local law enforcement as to the disposition of the stolen PV modules, such as if they show up at the local pawn shop, or if a new resident is bragging about his new PV "system." Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > I was at a site today that had four out of the 50 modules removed recently > by thieves. Can anyone recommend a good alternative to the Unirac hardware? > I mean like tamperproof security hardware? > It has T-bolts with top clamps utilized. Of course it is a ground mount > and is easily accessible. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu May 19 06:02:16 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 03:02:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Stolen_modules=2C_what_to_do=3F?= Message-ID: <20160519030216.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.901f846049.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu May 19 07:59:02 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 07:59:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stolen modules, what to do? In-Reply-To: <20160519030216.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.901f846049.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20160519030216.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.901f846049.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: In Haiti they use steel framing and weld in the modules. On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 6:02 AM, wrote: > Might try Loctite Red - Just remember it takes 400*F to remove. Good Luck. > db > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564(802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stolen modules, what to do? > From: Jeremy Rodriguez > Date: Wed, May 18, 2016 9:22 pm > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" > > > I was at a site today that had four out of the 50 modules removed recently > by thieves. Can anyone recommend a good alternative to the Unirac hardware? > I mean like tamperproof security hardware? > It has T-bolts with top clamps utilized. Of course it is a ground mount > and is easily accessible. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Call > Send SMS > Call from mobile > Add to Skype > You'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu May 19 09:18:11 2016 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 08:18:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stolen modules, what to do? In-Reply-To: References: <20160519030216.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.901f846049.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: What's the point in any of this? I can break 1/4" hardware with a standard ratchet wrench. Save the time and dollars and use it to buy spares or put the modules up out of reach. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC This message sent from my cell phone. My apologies for brevity and spelling errors. On May 19, 2016 08:08, "Chris Mason" wrote: In Haiti they use steel framing and weld in the modules. On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 6:02 AM, wrote: > Might try Loctite Red - Just remember it takes 400*F to remove. Good Luck. > db > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564(802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stolen modules, what to do? > From: Jeremy Rodriguez > Date: Wed, May 18, 2016 9:22 pm > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" > > > I was at a site today that had four out of the 50 modules removed recently > by thieves. Can anyone recommend a good alternative to the Unirac hardware? > I mean like tamperproof security hardware? > It has T-bolts with top clamps utilized. Of course it is a ground mount > and is easily accessible. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Call > Send SMS > Call from mobile > Add to Skype > You'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Thu May 19 09:56:38 2016 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 09:56:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stolen modules, what to do? Message-ID: On a ground mount you could mount them from the back with stainless pop rivets. Unirac has back mounting tabs that are supposed to be fastened with 1/4" hardware, but long pop rivets would fit. I'd recommend an air-powered rivet gun for that. It won't stop the frame sawing, but then what will? Obvious video cameras (real or fake) and a sign saying "You are being videotaped" is the best aside from that. -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro, LLC Solar Gain LLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu May 19 09:57:34 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 09:57:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stolen modules, what to do? In-Reply-To: References: <20160519030216.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.901f846049.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: The point is degree of difficulty. I can cut off a 1/2 plate steel door in minutes with my plasma cutter, but most people don't have that capability. Your opportunistic thief will unscrew an allen head or hex head, but anything that requires a special tool is likely to slow them down. Security screws have been used for years to stop people disassembling equipment, taking off access doors etc. If the degree of difficulty outweighs the benefit, most thieves will not bother. On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 9:18 AM, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > What's the point in any of this? I can break 1/4" hardware with a standard > ratchet wrench. > > Save the time and dollars and use it to buy spares or put the modules up > out of reach. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > > This message sent from my cell phone. My apologies for brevity and > spelling errors. > On May 19, 2016 08:08, "Chris Mason" wrote: > > In Haiti they use steel framing and weld in the modules. > > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 6:02 AM, wrote: > >> Might try Loctite Red - Just remember it takes 400*F to remove. Good >> Luck. db >> >> >> Dan Brown >> Foxfire Energy Corp. >> Renewable Energy Systems >> (802)-483-2564(802)-483-2564 >> www.Foxfire-Energy.com >> NABCEP #092907-44 >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stolen modules, what to do? >> From: Jeremy Rodriguez >> Date: Wed, May 18, 2016 9:22 pm >> To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" >> >> >> I was at a site today that had four out of the 50 modules removed >> recently by thieves. Can anyone recommend a good alternative to the Unirac >> hardware? >> I mean like tamperproof security hardware? >> It has T-bolts with top clamps utilized. Of course it is a ground mount >> and is easily accessible. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Call >> Send SMS >> Call from mobile >> Add to Skype >> You'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu May 19 10:27:56 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 14:27:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] STP200-18 Message-ID: If anyone he has four Suntech Tech 200–18ub-1 modules please contact me off list Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue May 24 18:14:07 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 22:14:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues Message-ID: Wrenches, Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette. Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on metallic conduit, and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and insufficiently torqued. The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in that I do not feel that actual issues have been addressed. I don't really care what UL or any other authority tells me - pulling 175A continually for many hrs through a #4 wire I think is asking for trouble. And my customer won't really care about what the UL ratings say if they are dealing with a melted alternator. Am I missing something here? Kevin RE: SP-410-1-1LO S/N: I am responding to the concerns written below both in the capacity as designer and as U.L. liaison. We have received this generator, mostly intact. Some freight damage to the battery support cross member due to forks not extending the full depth of the crate, and are working with the freight company to resolve that. Sorry for the experienced freight damage. However, there are some SERIOUS and DANGEROUS issues pertaining to the wiring of the alternator! It is obvious that wiring was not done by an electrician. There are no serious or dangerous issues on this (built to U.L. recognized spec) Gillette Generator as referred to in this writing. And - you are correct- this wiring, as 'factory wiring and not 'field' wiring, does not require or use the specific qualifications of a licensed electrician. The well trained/supervised workers here at Gillette have many years of experience building the product and are guided as need by a competent engineering staff. Specifically: - Alternator to circuit breaker wiring was done with #4 wire (rated 60A max). Per your own load chart inside the breaker enclosure (photo attached), that wire should be 4/0 to carry the 175A that this generator is capable of producing. This observation is incorrect. The load wiring sizing schedule affixed to the side of the circuit breaker box is for 'field connectivity' at 75 deg. F. We do our 'factory wiring ' on a different schedule using load cabling from the generator to the top of the circuit breaker rated at 150 deg. F. All of this cabling has been done, tested and proven by U.L - There were no plastic bushings (see photo) where the wires exit the metal conduit. The conduit bushing involved is the correct U.L. approved component for the installation of spiral wound metal conduit required to be installed on 'open' style generator assemblies. A plastic bushing is NOT required as this is again 'factory wiring', not 'field wiring. - What would have happened here is the wire heats up due to gross under sizing, melts the insulation, and shorts it out. Resulting in a fire or destruction of the brand new alternator, and the associated legal proceedings involving all parties and a general nightmare for all of us. disagree, on several fronts. Referencing the specification standard U.L. 2200, many times- local inspectors blur the line between its dominance for standby generator systems and NEC-70 (NEC- code). The former covers 'factory' design wiring on stationary standby generators subject to witness testing by a U.L. certified representative. The latter applies to 'field wiring'- that is anything outside the box including connection conduits, load wiring ( at 75 deg. F) transfer switches, distribution panes and the like. As resident designer for the past twenty-six years, I have myself- written eight standards/code rebuttals successfully, both for U.L. and local inspectors. Comparing a 4ga, 2ga, 1ga and the like against a different class of wiring such as a 4/0 would certainly be cause for alarm. But, clearly here the alarm is unwarranted. - the ground lug on the alternator was not fastened properly (a short stud with a nut on it - no way to get proper torque on it - should be a bolt), and both this lug and the lug inside the breaker enclosure was fitted on top of a painted surface. Every electrician knows you need to scrape off the paint so as to allow for proper conductivity. This lug is not supplied by us. It is supplied as part of the generator construction built by Marathon. Marathon generators are certified for U.L. 1004B- generator assemblies and U.L. 1446 for insulation. This is the equipment issued as part of that U.L. certified design. as to their design vs. a 'bolt' going into the threads of the hole- if it was really an issue, it would not have passed their U.L. certification testing. Their generator assemblies bear their U.L. file certification under R/C (JZGZ2) and listing (JZGZ). In regards to the paint removal, the engine and generator are cable grounded to the frame of the generator assembly and serrated hardware is used during assembly to scratch into the painted surfaces of the boxes and frame. As you notice in the picture- the threads in the generator housing sleeve- are not painted. These are issues that we are able to remedy. But my client, being very hands on has noticed this and inquired, quite reasonably, as to why they are paying Energy Alternatives to repair something that they paid for and should have been delivered properly done in the first place? To my findings, there is no warrantable work required. I think the fairest solution to this is for us to remedy these defects and to have Collicutt reimburse use for time and materials. I will complete the work and send you the total bill for compensation unless you would like to approach this in a different method. We are hoping to go live with this unit in the next few days once the gas fitting is completed. As stated above- Not required. I hope these responses help clarify the items in question. Regards, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue May 24 20:06:47 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:06:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kevin, Do you think the wire wrapped around the stator is 4/0? It would have to be a huge lump of an alternator. You can't use NEC code to determine wiring specify inside machines. I recently changed the power cord on my welder to an L14-50, connected it to the internal 40 amp breaker, which was wired to the motherboard with 2x18awg wires per leg. As long as the cabling is rated for the heat, what's the issue when you are talking short lengths. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Wed May 25 10:24:17 2016 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 10:24:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001f01d1b691$1f155560$5d400020$@dovetailsolar.com> Kevin, Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points. On the 4AWG wire: Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table 310.15(B)(19). It's rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z type or similar based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C) wiring is used. Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous (maybe it's a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for a generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a generator depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In reality do you expect more than 120A to be a true "continuous" load on this unit. I don't know the answer, just worth thinking about. Plastic bushings: I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL does not force them to, don't expect them to include it. (Capitalism at work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing.. I would not do it on a new install, but it's a useful trick when you walk up on existing mistakes. Lug: You could continuity test it to see if it's a good connection, otherwise that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It'll work fine for now, but not likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I'd just throw a star washer underneath if possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough. So there is a little bitta' code and a lotta' opinion. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues Wrenches, Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette. Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on metallic conduit, and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and insufficiently torqued. The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in that I do not feel that actual issues have been addressed. I don't really care what UL or any other authority tells me - pulling 175A continually for many hrs through a #4 wire I think is asking for trouble. And my customer won't really care about what the UL ratings say if they are dealing with a melted alternator. Am I missing something here? Kevin RE: SP-410-1-1LO S/N: I am responding to the concerns written below both in the capacity as designer and as U.L. liaison. We have received this generator, mostly intact. Some freight damage to the battery support cross member due to forks not extending the full depth of the crate, and are working with the freight company to resolve that. Sorry for the experienced freight damage. However, there are some SERIOUS and DANGEROUS issues pertaining to the wiring of the alternator! It is obvious that wiring was not done by an electrician. There are no serious or dangerous issues on this (built to U.L. recognized spec) Gillette Generator as referred to in this writing. And - you are correct- this wiring, as 'factory wiring and not 'field' wiring, does not require or use the specific qualifications of a licensed electrician. The well trained/supervised workers here at Gillette have many years of experience building the product and are guided as need by a competent engineering staff. Specifically: - Alternator to circuit breaker wiring was done with #4 wire (rated 60A max). Per your own load chart inside the breaker enclosure (photo attached), that wire should be 4/0 to carry the 175A that this generator is capable of producing. This observation is incorrect. The load wiring sizing schedule affixed to the side of the circuit breaker box is for 'field connectivity' at 75 deg. F. We do our 'factory wiring ' on a different schedule using load cabling from the generator to the top of the circuit breaker rated at 150 deg. F. All of this cabling has been done, tested and proven by U.L - There were no plastic bushings (see photo) where the wires exit the metal conduit. The conduit bushing involved is the correct U.L. approved component for the installation of spiral wound metal conduit required to be installed on 'open' style generator assemblies. A plastic bushing is NOT required as this is again 'factory wiring', not 'field wiring. - What would have happened here is the wire heats up due to gross under sizing, melts the insulation, and shorts it out. Resulting in a fire or destruction of the brand new alternator, and the associated legal proceedings involving all parties and a general nightmare for all of us. disagree, on several fronts. Referencing the specification standard U.L. 2200, many times- local inspectors blur the line between its dominance for standby generator systems and NEC-70 (NEC- code). The former covers 'factory' design wiring on stationary standby generators subject to witness testing by a U.L. certified representative. The latter applies to 'field wiring'- that is anything outside the box including connection conduits, load wiring ( at 75 deg. F) transfer switches, distribution panes and the like. As resident designer for the past twenty-six years, I have myself- written eight standards/code rebuttals successfully, both for U.L. and local inspectors. Comparing a 4ga, 2ga, 1ga and the like against a different class of wiring such as a 4/0 would certainly be cause for alarm. But, clearly here the alarm is unwarranted. - the ground lug on the alternator was not fastened properly (a short stud with a nut on it - no way to get proper torque on it - should be a bolt), and both this lug and the lug inside the breaker enclosure was fitted on top of a painted surface. Every electrician knows you need to scrape off the paint so as to allow for proper conductivity. This lug is not supplied by us. It is supplied as part of the generator construction built by Marathon. Marathon generators are certified for U.L. 1004B- generator assemblies and U.L. 1446 for insulation. This is the equipment issued as part of that U.L. certified design. as to their design vs. a 'bolt' going into the threads of the hole- if it was really an issue, it would not have passed their U.L. certification testing. Their generator assemblies bear their U.L. file certification under R/C (JZGZ2) and listing (JZGZ). In regards to the paint removal, the engine and generator are cable grounded to the frame of the generator assembly and serrated hardware is used during assembly to scratch into the painted surfaces of the boxes and frame. As you notice in the picture- the threads in the generator housing sleeve- are not painted. These are issues that we are able to remedy. But my client, being very hands on has noticed this and inquired, quite reasonably, as to why they are paying Energy Alternatives to repair something that they paid for and should have been delivered properly done in the first place? To my findings, there is no warrantable work required. I think the fairest solution to this is for us to remedy these defects and to have Collicutt reimburse use for time and materials. I will complete the work and send you the total bill for compensation unless you would like to approach this in a different method. We are hoping to go live with this unit in the next few days once the gas fitting is completed. As stated above- Not required. I hope these responses help clarify the items in question. Regards, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed May 25 14:39:50 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 18:39:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues In-Reply-To: <001f01d1b691$1f155560$5d400020$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <001f01d1b691$1f155560$5d400020$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <770e6cd412d6417a873f730bc3c8f712@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Daniel, Appreciate your thoughts on this. - This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx. 3' long from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in free air, but most is contained within the conduit. - the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A. - This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at full load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is suited to that. Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely possible during heavy loads & concurrent battery charging that it could well be running at max load for hrs at a time. The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug. The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing tells me that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I replace the wires myself then I believe I have voided the UL certification. But think have made a safer engine for my client. At the end of the day, it will be me who the client is calling if there is an issue. Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was either # 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: May-25-16 7:24 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues Kevin, Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points. On the 4AWG wire: Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table 310.15(B)(19). It's rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z type or similar based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C) wiring is used. Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous (maybe it's a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for a generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a generator depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In reality do you expect more than 120A to be a true "continuous" load on this unit. I don't know the answer, just worth thinking about. Plastic bushings: I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL does not force them to, don't expect them to include it. (Capitalism at work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing.... I would not do it on a new install, but it's a useful trick when you walk up on existing mistakes. Lug: You could continuity test it to see if it's a good connection, otherwise that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It'll work fine for now, but not likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I'd just throw a star washer underneath if possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough. So there is a little bitta' code and a lotta' opinion. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues Wrenches, Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette. Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on metallic conduit, and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and insufficiently torqued. The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in that I do not feel that actual issues have been addressed. I don't really care what UL or any other authority tells me - pulling 175A continually for many hrs through a #4 wire I think is asking for trouble. And my customer won't really care about what the UL ratings say if they are dealing with a melted alternator. Am I missing something here? Kevin RE: SP-410-1-1LO S/N: I am responding to the concerns written below both in the capacity as designer and as U.L. liaison. We have received this generator, mostly intact. Some freight damage to the battery support cross member due to forks not extending the full depth of the crate, and are working with the freight company to resolve that. Sorry for the experienced freight damage. However, there are some SERIOUS and DANGEROUS issues pertaining to the wiring of the alternator! It is obvious that wiring was not done by an electrician. There are no serious or dangerous issues on this (built to U.L. recognized spec) Gillette Generator as referred to in this writing. And - you are correct- this wiring, as 'factory wiring and not 'field' wiring, does not require or use the specific qualifications of a licensed electrician. The well trained/supervised workers here at Gillette have many years of experience building the product and are guided as need by a competent engineering staff. Specifically: - Alternator to circuit breaker wiring was done with #4 wire (rated 60A max). Per your own load chart inside the breaker enclosure (photo attached), that wire should be 4/0 to carry the 175A that this generator is capable of producing. This observation is incorrect. The load wiring sizing schedule affixed to the side of the circuit breaker box is for 'field connectivity' at 75 deg. F. We do our 'factory wiring ' on a different schedule using load cabling from the generator to the top of the circuit breaker rated at 150 deg. F. All of this cabling has been done, tested and proven by U.L - There were no plastic bushings (see photo) where the wires exit the metal conduit. The conduit bushing involved is the correct U.L. approved component for the installation of spiral wound metal conduit required to be installed on 'open' style generator assemblies. A plastic bushing is NOT required as this is again 'factory wiring', not 'field wiring. - What would have happened here is the wire heats up due to gross under sizing, melts the insulation, and shorts it out. Resulting in a fire or destruction of the brand new alternator, and the associated legal proceedings involving all parties and a general nightmare for all of us. disagree, on several fronts. Referencing the specification standard U.L. 2200, many times- local inspectors blur the line between its dominance for standby generator systems and NEC-70 (NEC- code). The former covers 'factory' design wiring on stationary standby generators subject to witness testing by a U.L. certified representative. The latter applies to 'field wiring'- that is anything outside the box including connection conduits, load wiring ( at 75 deg. F) transfer switches, distribution panes and the like. As resident designer for the past twenty-six years, I have myself- written eight standards/code rebuttals successfully, both for U.L. and local inspectors. Comparing a 4ga, 2ga, 1ga and the like against a different class of wiring such as a 4/0 would certainly be cause for alarm. But, clearly here the alarm is unwarranted. - the ground lug on the alternator was not fastened properly (a short stud with a nut on it - no way to get proper torque on it - should be a bolt), and both this lug and the lug inside the breaker enclosure was fitted on top of a painted surface. Every electrician knows you need to scrape off the paint so as to allow for proper conductivity. This lug is not supplied by us. It is supplied as part of the generator construction built by Marathon. Marathon generators are certified for U.L. 1004B- generator assemblies and U.L. 1446 for insulation. This is the equipment issued as part of that U.L. certified design. as to their design vs. a 'bolt' going into the threads of the hole- if it was really an issue, it would not have passed their U.L. certification testing. Their generator assemblies bear their U.L. file certification under R/C (JZGZ2) and listing (JZGZ). In regards to the paint removal, the engine and generator are cable grounded to the frame of the generator assembly and serrated hardware is used during assembly to scratch into the painted surfaces of the boxes and frame. As you notice in the picture- the threads in the generator housing sleeve- are not painted. These are issues that we are able to remedy. But my client, being very hands on has noticed this and inquired, quite reasonably, as to why they are paying Energy Alternatives to repair something that they paid for and should have been delivered properly done in the first place? To my findings, there is no warrantable work required. I think the fairest solution to this is for us to remedy these defects and to have Collicutt reimburse use for time and materials. I will complete the work and send you the total bill for compensation unless you would like to approach this in a different method. We are hoping to go live with this unit in the next few days once the gas fitting is completed. As stated above- Not required. I hope these responses help clarify the items in question. Regards, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Wed May 25 15:08:06 2016 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 15:08:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues In-Reply-To: <770e6cd412d6417a873f730bc3c8f712@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <001f01d1b691$1f155560$5d400020$@dovetailsolar.com> <770e6cd412d6417a873f730bc3c8f712@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <006601d1b6b8$c534e1f0$4f9ea5d0$@dovetailsolar.com> I have a seen playing in my head of a factory floor..(maybe a conference office) "Just put the same alternator on all of 'em! The savings will cover the average failure rate. Who uses a generator at its full rating anyway eh?" Who knows the real story behind it, but I just wonder if that stuff really happens. Careful changing out to larger wire if you go that route, the smaller wire that you splice onto will get just as hot and so the splice and an inch or two of the larger wire next to the splice will get almost as hot too, which means you may scorch some insulation at that splice. Good Luck, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 2:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues Hi Daniel, Appreciate your thoughts on this. - This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx. 3' long from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in free air, but most is contained within the conduit. - the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A. - This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at full load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is suited to that. Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely possible during heavy loads & concurrent battery charging that it could well be running at max load for hrs at a time. The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug. The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing tells me that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I replace the wires myself then I believe I have voided the UL certification. But think have made a safer engine for my client. At the end of the day, it will be me who the client is calling if there is an issue. Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was either # 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: May-25-16 7:24 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues Kevin, Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points. On the 4AWG wire: Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table 310.15(B)(19). It's rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z type or similar based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C) wiring is used. Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous (maybe it's a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for a generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a generator depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In reality do you expect more than 120A to be a true "continuous" load on this unit. I don't know the answer, just worth thinking about. Plastic bushings: I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL does not force them to, don't expect them to include it. (Capitalism at work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing.. I would not do it on a new install, but it's a useful trick when you walk up on existing mistakes. Lug: You could continuity test it to see if it's a good connection, otherwise that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It'll work fine for now, but not likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I'd just throw a star washer underneath if possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough. So there is a little bitta' code and a lotta' opinion. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues Wrenches, Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette. Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on metallic conduit, and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and insufficiently torqued. The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in that I do not feel that actual issues have been addressed. I don't really care what UL or any other authority tells me - pulling 175A continually for many hrs through a #4 wire I think is asking for trouble. And my customer won't really care about what the UL ratings say if they are dealing with a melted alternator. Am I missing something here? Kevin RE: SP-410-1-1LO S/N: I am responding to the concerns written below both in the capacity as designer and as U.L. liaison. We have received this generator, mostly intact. Some freight damage to the battery support cross member due to forks not extending the full depth of the crate, and are working with the freight company to resolve that. Sorry for the experienced freight damage. However, there are some SERIOUS and DANGEROUS issues pertaining to the wiring of the alternator! It is obvious that wiring was not done by an electrician. There are no serious or dangerous issues on this (built to U.L. recognized spec) Gillette Generator as referred to in this writing. And - you are correct- this wiring, as 'factory wiring and not 'field' wiring, does not require or use the specific qualifications of a licensed electrician. The well trained/supervised workers here at Gillette have many years of experience building the product and are guided as need by a competent engineering staff. Specifically: - Alternator to circuit breaker wiring was done with #4 wire (rated 60A max). Per your own load chart inside the breaker enclosure (photo attached), that wire should be 4/0 to carry the 175A that this generator is capable of producing. This observation is incorrect. The load wiring sizing schedule affixed to the side of the circuit breaker box is for 'field connectivity' at 75 deg. F. We do our 'factory wiring ' on a different schedule using load cabling from the generator to the top of the circuit breaker rated at 150 deg. F. All of this cabling has been done, tested and proven by U.L - There were no plastic bushings (see photo) where the wires exit the metal conduit. The conduit bushing involved is the correct U.L. approved component for the installation of spiral wound metal conduit required to be installed on 'open' style generator assemblies. A plastic bushing is NOT required as this is again 'factory wiring', not 'field wiring. - What would have happened here is the wire heats up due to gross under sizing, melts the insulation, and shorts it out. Resulting in a fire or destruction of the brand new alternator, and the associated legal proceedings involving all parties and a general nightmare for all of us. disagree, on several fronts. Referencing the specification standard U.L. 2200, many times- local inspectors blur the line between its dominance for standby generator systems and NEC-70 (NEC- code). The former covers 'factory' design wiring on stationary standby generators subject to witness testing by a U.L. certified representative. The latter applies to 'field wiring'- that is anything outside the box including connection conduits, load wiring ( at 75 deg. F) transfer switches, distribution panes and the like. As resident designer for the past twenty-six years, I have myself- written eight standards/code rebuttals successfully, both for U.L. and local inspectors. Comparing a 4ga, 2ga, 1ga and the like against a different class of wiring such as a 4/0 would certainly be cause for alarm. But, clearly here the alarm is unwarranted. - the ground lug on the alternator was not fastened properly (a short stud with a nut on it - no way to get proper torque on it - should be a bolt), and both this lug and the lug inside the breaker enclosure was fitted on top of a painted surface. Every electrician knows you need to scrape off the paint so as to allow for proper conductivity. This lug is not supplied by us. It is supplied as part of the generator construction built by Marathon. Marathon generators are certified for U.L. 1004B- generator assemblies and U.L. 1446 for insulation. This is the equipment issued as part of that U.L. certified design. as to their design vs. a 'bolt' going into the threads of the hole- if it was really an issue, it would not have passed their U.L. certification testing. Their generator assemblies bear their U.L. file certification under R/C (JZGZ2) and listing (JZGZ). In regards to the paint removal, the engine and generator are cable grounded to the frame of the generator assembly and serrated hardware is used during assembly to scratch into the painted surfaces of the boxes and frame. As you notice in the picture- the threads in the generator housing sleeve- are not painted. These are issues that we are able to remedy. But my client, being very hands on has noticed this and inquired, quite reasonably, as to why they are paying Energy Alternatives to repair something that they paid for and should have been delivered properly done in the first place? To my findings, there is no warrantable work required. I think the fairest solution to this is for us to remedy these defects and to have Collicutt reimburse use for time and materials. I will complete the work and send you the total bill for compensation unless you would like to approach this in a different method. We are hoping to go live with this unit in the next few days once the gas fitting is completed. As stated above- Not required. I hope these responses help clarify the items in question. Regards, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed May 25 17:39:05 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 14:39:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] meter main combo with multiple main breaker spots and NEC 705.12 Message-ID: <2c401292fa751c4b31a8bc0ba51d4d1c@mail.gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, We have a 125 A meter/main combo with space for up to 6 breakers (or three two-pole breakers). Here is a Google photos link: https://goo.gl/photos/kftDerEESg3giLrB9 The configuration is such that the busing is unprotected and connected directly to the utility feeds through the meter bus. I want to install into a subpanel fed by the 100 A breaker to the right. Does anyone see a reason why I can’t install up to 100 A of solar? What if we tied the solar where the 50A two pole breaker currently is? Lastly, does any code savvy individual know what limits, if any, there are to the sizing of main breakers in this panel? Cheers, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed May 25 17:55:08 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 14:55:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] meter main combo with multiple main breaker spots and NEC 705.12 In-Reply-To: 2c401292fa751c4b31a8bc0ba51d4d1c@mail.gmail.com References: 2c401292fa751c4b31a8bc0ba51d4d1c@mail.gmail.com Message-ID: <7a91aedd29e424212476d0b09b1e4f7e@mail.gmail.com> All – I’ll chime in to my own post with this article from Solar Pro: http://solarprofessional.com/articles/design-installation/residential-supply-side-interconnection?v=disable_pagination See “A Simpler Supply Side” – I’m fairly certain that we can install up to 125 A of solar on this panel since the connection would qualify as a supply side connection. However, I’m still curious about main breaker limitations for these types of panels. Best, August *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, May 25, 2016 2:39 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* meter main combo with multiple main breaker spots and NEC 705.12 Hi Wrenches, We have a 125 A meter/main combo with space for up to 6 breakers (or three two-pole breakers). Here is a Google photos link: https://goo.gl/photos/kftDerEESg3giLrB9 The configuration is such that the busing is unprotected and connected directly to the utility feeds through the meter bus. I want to install into a subpanel fed by the 100 A breaker to the right. Does anyone see a reason why I can’t install up to 100 A of solar? What if we tied the solar where the 50A two pole breaker currently is? Lastly, does any code savvy individual know what limits, if any, there are to the sizing of main breakers in this panel? Cheers, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 25 20:49:39 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 20:49:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] meter main combo with multiple main breaker spots and NEC 705.12 In-Reply-To: <7a91aedd29e424212476d0b09b1e4f7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a91aedd29e424212476d0b09b1e4f7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Replacing the 50A breaker with a backfed solar breaker would work if your relocate that load (which may require load calcs to reconfigure the service disconnects, which is what you would be doing). You are just limited to the rating of the service on the solar interconnection, so 125 / 1.25 = 100A would be your max inverter output rating. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 5:55 PM, August Goers wrote: > All – > > > > I’ll chime in to my own post with this article from Solar Pro: > > > > > http://solarprofessional.com/articles/design-installation/residential-supply-side-interconnection?v=disable_pagination > > > > See “A Simpler Supply Side” – I’m fairly certain that we can install up to > 125 A of solar on this panel since the connection would qualify as a supply > side connection. However, I’m still curious about main breaker limitations > for these types of panels. > > > > Best, August > > > > *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 25, 2016 2:39 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* meter main combo with multiple main breaker spots and NEC > 705.12 > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > We have a 125 A meter/main combo with space for up to 6 breakers (or three > two-pole breakers). Here is a Google photos link: > > > > https://goo.gl/photos/kftDerEESg3giLrB9 > > > > The configuration is such that the busing is unprotected and connected > directly to the utility feeds through the meter bus. I want to install into > a subpanel fed by the 100 A breaker to the right. Does anyone see a reason > why I can’t install up to 100 A of solar? What if we tied the solar where > the 50A two pole breaker currently is? Lastly, does any code savvy > individual know what limits, if any, there are to the sizing of main > breakers in this panel? > > > > Cheers, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed May 25 22:23:22 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 19:23:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues In-Reply-To: <770e6cd412d6417a873f730bc3c8f712@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <001f01d1b691$1f155560$5d400020$@dovetailsolar.com> <770e6cd412d6417a873f730bc3c8f712@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <1b1b5be2-1575-02b0-ceff-285eb7be78d4@midnitesolar.com> UL evaluates products on internal temperature rises while it is used=20 normally. They also evaluate the products under abnormal use, in various ways. It may or may not have a fan. If you look inside an inverter, you will=20 see the same type of things.... Large external battery cables connecting to smaller internal=20 cables and/or bus-bars and circuit board traces. All sorts of things that probably=20 are not allowed with NEC. I think I saw a temperature of 150 degrees F mentioned here. That's nothing compared to the highest temperatures seen in certain parts of the products. Some wire, like in some transformer classes can reach as high as 220=20 degrees C (428 F) ! boB On 5/25/2016 11:39 AM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Hi Daniel, > > Appreciate your thoughts on this. > > - This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx.=20 > 3' long from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in=20 > free air, but most is contained within the conduit. > > - the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A. > > - This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at=20 > full load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is=20 > suited to that. Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely=20 > possible during heavy loads & concurrent battery charging that it=20 > could well be running at max load for hrs at a time. > > The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug. > > The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing=20 > tells me that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I=20 > replace the wires myself then I believe I have voided the UL=20 > certification. But think have made a safer engine for my client. At=20 > the end of the day, it will be me who the client is calling if there=20 > is an issue. > > Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was=20 > either # 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm. > > Kevin > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Daniel Young > *Sent:* May-25-16 7:24 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues > > Kevin, > > Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points. > > On the 4AWG wire: > > Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC=20 > table 310.15(B)(19). It=E2=80=99s rated for 120A when in conduit. So is t= his=20 > wire where you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the=20 > inside of a generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I=20 > assume this is Z type or similar based on the response stating 150 F=20 > (I know he meant C) wiring is used. > > Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A=20 > continuous (maybe it=E2=80=99s a 100% rated breaker?). And that really wo= uld=20 > not be great for a generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of=20 > 80% loading on a generator depending on elevation and a few other=20 > de-rate factors. In reality do you expect more than 120A to be a true=20 > =E2=80=9Ccontinuous=E2=80=9D load on this unit. I don=E2=80=99t know the = answer, just worth=20 > thinking about. > > Plastic bushings: > > I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if=20 > UL does not force them to, don=E2=80=99t expect them to include it.=20 > (Capitalism at work). You might be able to use an electricians trick=20 > where you cut a PVC bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then=20 > you can thread it in the end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a=20 > normally installed bushing=E2=80=A6. I would not do it on a new install, = but=20 > it=E2=80=99s a useful trick when you walk up on existing mistakes. > > Lug: > > You could continuity test it to see if it=E2=80=99s a good connection,=20 > otherwise that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving=20 > step for the manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It=E2=80=99ll wor= k=20 > fine for now, but not likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I=E2=80=99d= just=20 > throw a star washer underneath if possible, but it sounds like the=20 > stud is not long enough. > > So there is a little bitta=E2=80=99 code and a lotta=E2=80=99 opinion. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues > > Wrenches, > > Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette. > > Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which=20 > are outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The=20 > concerns are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on=20 > metallic conduit, and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and=20 > insufficiently torqued. > > The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in=20 > that I do not feel that actual issues have been addressed. I don't=20 > really care what UL or any other authority tells me - pulling 175A=20 > continually for many hrs through a #4 wire I think is asking for=20 > trouble. And my customer won't really care about what the UL ratings=20 > say if they are dealing with a melted alternator. > > Am I missing something here? > > Kevin > > RE: SP-410-1-1LO S/N: > > I am responding to the concerns written below both in the capacity as=20 > designer and as U.L. liaison. > > We have received this generator, mostly intact. Some freight damage to=20 > the battery support cross member due to forks not extending the full=20 > depth of the crate, and are working with the freight company to=20 > resolve that. > > Sorry for the experienced freight damage. > > However, there are some SERIOUS and DANGEROUS issues pertaining to the=20 > wiring of the alternator! It is obvious that wiring was not done by an=20 > electrician. > > There are no serious or dangerous issues on this (built to U.L.=20 > recognized spec) Gillette Generator as referred to in this writing.=20 > And =E2=80=93 you are correct- this wiring, as =E2=80=98factory wiring an= d not =E2=80=98field=E2=80=99=20 > wiring, does not require or use the specific qualifications of a=20 > licensed electrician. The well trained/supervised workers here at=20 > Gillette have many years of experience building the product and are=20 > guided as need by a competent engineering staff. > > Specifically: > > - Alternator to circuit breaker wiring was done with #4 wire (rated=20 > 60A max). Per your own load chart inside the breaker enclosure (photo=20 > attached), that wire should be 4/0 to carry the 175A that this=20 > generator is capable of producing. > > This observation is incorrect. The load wiring sizing schedule affixed=20 > to the side of the circuit breaker box is for =E2=80=98field connectivity= =E2=80=99 at=20 > 75 deg. F. We do our =E2=80=98factory wiring =E2=80=98 on a different sch= edule using=20 > load cabling from the generator to the top of the circuit breaker=20 > rated at 150 deg. F. All of this cabling has been done, tested and=20 > proven by U.L > > - There were no plastic bushings (see photo) where the wires exit the=20 > metal conduit. > > The conduit bushing involved is the correct U.L. approved component=20 > for the installation of spiral wound metal conduit required to be=20 > installed on =E2=80=98open=E2=80=99 style generator assemblies. A plastic= bushing is=20 > NOT required as this is again =E2=80=98factory wiring=E2=80=99, not =E2= =80=98field wiring. > > - What would have happened here is the wire heats up due to gross=20 > under sizing, melts the insulation, and shorts it out. Resulting in a=20 > fire or destruction of the brand new alternator, and the associated=20 > legal proceedings involving all parties and a general nightmare for=20 > all of us. > > disagree, on several fronts. Referencing the specification standard=20 > U.L. 2200, many times- local inspectors blur the line between its=20 > dominance for standby generator systems and NEC-70 (NEC- code). The=20 > former covers =E2=80=98factory=E2=80=99 design wiring on stationary stand= by generators=20 > subject to witness testing by a U.L. certified representative. The=20 > latter applies to =E2=80=98field wiring=E2=80=99- that is anything outsid= e the box=20 > including connection conduits, load wiring ( at 75 deg. F) transfer=20 > switches, distribution panes and the like. As resident designer for=20 > the past twenty-six years, I have myself- written eight standards/code=20 > rebuttals successfully, both for U.L. and local inspectors. Comparing=20 > a 4ga, 2ga, 1ga and the like against a different class of wiring such=20 > as a 4/0 would certainly be cause for alarm. But, clearly here_the=20 > alarm is unwarranted_. > > - the ground lug on the alternator was not fastened=20 > properly (a short stud with a nut on it - no way to get proper torque=20 > on it - should be a bolt), and both this lug and the lug inside the=20 > breaker enclosure was fitted on top of a painted surface. Every=20 > electrician knows you need to scrape off the paint so as to allow for=20 > proper conductivity. > > This lug is not supplied by us. It is supplied as part of the=20 > generator construction built by Marathon. Marathon generators are=20 > certified for U.L. 1004B- generator assemblies and U.L. 1446 for=20 > insulation. This is the equipment issued as part of that U.L.=20 > certified design. as to their design vs. a =E2=80=98bolt=E2=80=99 going i= nto the=20 > threads of the hole- if it was really an issue, it would not have=20 > passed their U.L. certification testing. Their generator assemblies=20 > bear their U.L. file certification under R/C (JZGZ2) and listing=20 > (JZGZ). In regards to the paint removal, the engine and generator are=20 > cable grounded to the frame of the generator assembly and serrated=20 > hardware is used during assembly to scratch into the painted surfaces=20 > of the boxes and frame. As you notice in the picture- the threads in=20 > the generator housing sleeve- are not painted. > > These are issues that we are able to remedy. But my=20 > client, being very hands on has noticed this and inquired, quite=20 > reasonably, as to why they are paying Energy Alternatives to repair=20 > something that they paid for and should have been delivered properly=20 > done in the first place? > > To my findings, there is no warrantable work required. > > I think the fairest solution to this is for us to=20 > remedy these defects and to have Collicutt reimburse use for time and=20 > materials. I will complete the work and send you the total bill for=20 > compensation unless you would like to approach this in a different=20 > method. We are hoping to go live with this unit in the next few days=20 > once the gas fitting is completed. > > As stated above- Not required. > > I hope these responses help clarify the items in question. > > Regards, > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu May 26 11:26:25 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:26:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues In-Reply-To: <770e6cd412d6417a873f730bc3c8f712@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <001f01d1b691$1f155560$5d400020$@dovetailsolar.com> <770e6cd412d6417a873f730bc3c8f712@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: I would find a way to load test the generator, let it run under load for four hours. If nothing breaks, you don't need to do anything. On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > > > Appreciate your thoughts on this. > > > > - This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx. 3' > long from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in free > air, but most is contained within the conduit. > > - the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A. > > - This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at full > load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is suited to that. > Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely possible during heavy > loads & concurrent battery charging that it could well be running at max > load for hrs at a time. > > > > The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug. > > > > The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing tells > me that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I replace the > wires myself then I believe I have voided the UL certification. But think > have made a safer engine for my client. At the end of the day, it will be > me who the client is calling if there is an issue. > > > > Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was > either # 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Daniel Young > *Sent:* May-25-16 7:24 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues > > > > Kevin, > > > > Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points. > > > > On the 4AWG wire: > > > > Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table > 310.15(B)(19). It’s rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where > you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a > generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z > type or similar based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C) > wiring is used. > > > > Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous > (maybe it’s a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for > a generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a > generator depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In > reality do you expect more than 120A to be a true “continuous” load on this > unit. I don’t know the answer, just worth thinking about. > > > > Plastic bushings: > > > > I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL > does not force them to, don’t expect them to include it. (Capitalism at > work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC > bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the > end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing…. > I would not do it on a new install, but it’s a useful trick when you walk > up on existing mistakes. > > > > Lug: > > > > You could continuity test it to see if it’s a good connection, otherwise > that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the > manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It’ll work fine for now, but not > likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I’d just throw a star washer > underneath if possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough. > > > > So there is a little bitta’ code and a lotta’ opinion. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues > > > > Wrenches, > > > > Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette. > > > > Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are > outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns > are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on metallic conduit, > and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and insufficiently torqued. > > > > The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in that I > do not feel that actual issues have been addressed. I don't really care > what UL or any other authority tells me - pulling 175A continually for many > hrs through a #4 wire I think is asking for trouble. And my customer won't > really care about what the UL ratings say if they are dealing with a melted > alternator. > > > > Am I missing something here? > > > > Kevin > > > > > > RE: SP-410-1-1LO S/N: > > > > I am responding to the concerns written below both in the capacity as > designer and as U.L. liaison. > > > > We have received this generator, mostly intact. Some freight damage to the > battery support cross member due to forks not extending the full depth of > the crate, and are working with the freight company to resolve that. > > Sorry for the experienced freight damage. > > > > However, there are some SERIOUS and DANGEROUS issues pertaining to the > wiring of the alternator! It is obvious that wiring was not done by an > electrician. > > There are no serious or dangerous issues on this (built to U.L. recognized > spec) Gillette Generator as referred to in this writing. And – you are > correct- this wiring, as ‘factory wiring and not ‘field’ wiring, does not > require or use the specific qualifications of a licensed electrician. The > well trained/supervised workers here at Gillette have many years of > experience building the product and are guided as need by a competent > engineering staff. > > > > Specifically: > > > > - Alternator to circuit breaker wiring was done with #4 wire (rated 60A > max). Per your own load chart inside the breaker enclosure (photo > attached), that wire should be 4/0 to carry the 175A that this generator is > capable of producing. > > This observation is incorrect. The load wiring sizing schedule affixed to > the side of the circuit breaker box is for ‘field connectivity’ at 75 deg. > F. We do our ‘factory wiring ‘ on a different schedule using load cabling > from the generator to the top of the circuit breaker rated at 150 deg. F. > All of this cabling has been done, tested and proven by U.L > > > > - There were no plastic bushings (see photo) where the wires exit the > metal conduit. > > The conduit bushing involved is the correct U.L. approved component for > the installation of spiral wound metal conduit required to be installed on > ‘open’ style generator assemblies. A plastic bushing is NOT required as > this is again ‘factory wiring’, not ‘field wiring. > > > > - What would have happened here is the wire heats up due to gross under > sizing, melts the insulation, and shorts it out. Resulting in a fire or > destruction of the brand new alternator, and the associated legal > proceedings involving all parties and a general nightmare for all of us. > > disagree, on several fronts. Referencing the specification standard U.L. > 2200, many times- local inspectors blur the line between its dominance for > standby generator systems and NEC-70 (NEC- code). The former covers > ‘factory’ design wiring on stationary standby generators subject to witness > testing by a U.L. certified representative. The latter applies to ‘field > wiring’- that is anything outside the box including connection conduits, > load wiring ( at 75 deg. F) transfer switches, distribution panes and the > like. As resident designer for the past twenty-six years, I have myself- > written eight standards/code rebuttals successfully, both for U.L. and > local inspectors. Comparing a 4ga, 2ga, 1ga and the like against a > different class of wiring such as a 4/0 would certainly be cause for alarm. > But, clearly here *the alarm is unwarranted*. > > > > - the ground lug on the alternator was not fastened > properly (a short stud with a nut on it - no way to get proper torque on it > - should be a bolt), and both this lug and the lug inside the breaker > enclosure was fitted on top of a painted surface. Every electrician knows > you need to scrape off the paint so as to allow for proper conductivity. > > This lug is not supplied by us. It is supplied as part of the generator > construction built by Marathon. Marathon generators are certified for U.L. > 1004B- generator assemblies and U.L. 1446 for insulation. This is the > equipment issued as part of that U.L. certified design. as to their design > vs. a ‘bolt’ going into the threads of the hole- if it was really an > issue, it would not have passed their U.L. certification testing. Their > generator assemblies bear their U.L. file certification under R/C (JZGZ2) > and listing (JZGZ). In regards to the paint removal, the engine and > generator are cable grounded to the frame of the generator assembly and > serrated hardware is used during assembly to scratch into the painted > surfaces of the boxes and frame. As you notice in the picture- the threads > in the generator housing sleeve- are not painted. > > > > These are issues that we are able to remedy. But my > client, being very hands on has noticed this and inquired, quite > reasonably, as to why they are paying Energy Alternatives to repair > something that they paid for and should have been delivered properly done > in the first place? > > To my findings, there is no warrantable work required. > > > > I think the fairest solution to this is for us to remedy > these defects and to have Collicutt reimburse use for time and materials. I > will complete the work and send you the total bill for compensation unless > you would like to approach this in a different method. We are hoping to go > live with this unit in the next few days once the gas fitting is completed. > > As stated above- Not required. > > > > I hope these responses help clarify the items in question. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu May 26 11:48:11 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 08:48:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d1b691$1f155560$5d400020$@dovetailsolar.com> <770e6cd412d6417a873f730bc3c8f712@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <4db30fc3737819ff6422daf7469a7243@mail.gmail.com> All – Just to cheer you up, this reminds me of client of ours who had 12/3 NM Romex run between the utility service-drop conductors and weatherhead: https://goo.gl/photos/m5kDypbXmyPSftnU7 This was a 200 A service and the client had been running his entire house this way for years! I would never advocate for under sizing wires but it goes to show that there are certainly some safety factors in NEC wire sizing. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2016 8:26 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues I would find a way to load test the generator, let it run under load for four hours. If nothing breaks, you don't need to do anything. On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Hi Daniel, Appreciate your thoughts on this. - This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx. 3' long from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in free air, but most is contained within the conduit. - the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A. - This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at full load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is suited to that. Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely possible during heavy loads & concurrent battery charging that it could well be running at max load for hrs at a time. The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug. The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing tells me that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I replace the wires myself then I believe I have voided the UL certification. But think have made a safer engine for my client. At the end of the day, it will be me who the client is calling if there is an issue. Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was either # 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm. Kevin *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Daniel Young *Sent:* May-25-16 7:24 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues Kevin, Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points. On the 4AWG wire: Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table 310.15(B)(19). It’s rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z type or similar based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C) wiring is used. Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous (maybe it’s a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for a generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a generator depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In reality do you expect more than 120A to be a true “continuous” load on this unit. I don’t know the answer, just worth thinking about. Plastic bushings: I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL does not force them to, don’t expect them to include it. (Capitalism at work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing…. I would not do it on a new install, but it’s a useful trick when you walk up on existing mistakes. Lug: You could continuity test it to see if it’s a good connection, otherwise that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It’ll work fine for now, but not likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I’d just throw a star washer underneath if possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough. So there is a little bitta’ code and a lotta’ opinion. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg *Sent:* Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues Wrenches, Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette. Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on metallic conduit, and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and insufficiently torqued. The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in that I do not feel that actual issues have been addressed. I don't really care what UL or any other authority tells me - pulling 175A continually for many hrs through a #4 wire I think is asking for trouble. And my customer won't really care about what the UL ratings say if they are dealing with a melted alternator. Am I missing something here? Kevin RE: SP-410-1-1LO S/N: I am responding to the concerns written below both in the capacity as designer and as U.L. liaison. We have received this generator, mostly intact. Some freight damage to the battery support cross member due to forks not extending the full depth of the crate, and are working with the freight company to resolve that. Sorry for the experienced freight damage. However, there are some SERIOUS and DANGEROUS issues pertaining to the wiring of the alternator! It is obvious that wiring was not done by an electrician. There are no serious or dangerous issues on this (built to U.L. recognized spec) Gillette Generator as referred to in this writing. And – you are correct- this wiring, as ‘factory wiring and not ‘field’ wiring, does not require or use the specific qualifications of a licensed electrician. The well trained/supervised workers here at Gillette have many years of experience building the product and are guided as need by a competent engineering staff. Specifically: - Alternator to circuit breaker wiring was done with #4 wire (rated 60A max). Per your own load chart inside the breaker enclosure (photo attached), that wire should be 4/0 to carry the 175A that this generator is capable of producing. This observation is incorrect. The load wiring sizing schedule affixed to the side of the circuit breaker box is for ‘field connectivity’ at 75 deg. F. We do our ‘factory wiring ‘ on a different schedule using load cabling from the generator to the top of the circuit breaker rated at 150 deg. F. All of this cabling has been done, tested and proven by U.L - There were no plastic bushings (see photo) where the wires exit the metal conduit. The conduit bushing involved is the correct U.L. approved component for the installation of spiral wound metal conduit required to be installed on ‘open’ style generator assemblies. A plastic bushing is NOT required as this is again ‘factory wiring’, not ‘field wiring. - What would have happened here is the wire heats up due to gross under sizing, melts the insulation, and shorts it out. Resulting in a fire or destruction of the brand new alternator, and the associated legal proceedings involving all parties and a general nightmare for all of us. disagree, on several fronts. Referencing the specification standard U.L. 2200, many times- local inspectors blur the line between its dominance for standby generator systems and NEC-70 (NEC- code). The former covers ‘factory’ design wiring on stationary standby generators subject to witness testing by a U.L. certified representative. The latter applies to ‘field wiring’- that is anything outside the box including connection conduits, load wiring ( at 75 deg. F) transfer switches, distribution panes and the like. As resident designer for the past twenty-six years, I have myself- written eight standards/code rebuttals successfully, both for U.L. and local inspectors. Comparing a 4ga, 2ga, 1ga and the like against a different class of wiring such as a 4/0 would certainly be cause for alarm. But, clearly here *the alarm is unwarranted*. - the ground lug on the alternator was not fastened properly (a short stud with a nut on it - no way to get proper torque on it - should be a bolt), and both this lug and the lug inside the breaker enclosure was fitted on top of a painted surface. Every electrician knows you need to scrape off the paint so as to allow for proper conductivity. This lug is not supplied by us. It is supplied as part of the generator construction built by Marathon. Marathon generators are certified for U.L. 1004B- generator assemblies and U.L. 1446 for insulation. This is the equipment issued as part of that U.L. certified design. as to their design vs. a ‘bolt’ going into the threads of the hole- if it was really an issue, it would not have passed their U.L. certification testing. Their generator assemblies bear their U.L. file certification under R/C (JZGZ2) and listing (JZGZ). In regards to the paint removal, the engine and generator are cable grounded to the frame of the generator assembly and serrated hardware is used during assembly to scratch into the painted surfaces of the boxes and frame. As you notice in the picture- the threads in the generator housing sleeve- are not painted. These are issues that we are able to remedy. But my client, being very hands on has noticed this and inquired, quite reasonably, as to why they are paying Energy Alternatives to repair something that they paid for and should have been delivered properly done in the first place? To my findings, there is no warrantable work required. I think the fairest solution to this is for us to remedy these defects and to have Collicutt reimburse use for time and materials. I will complete the work and send you the total bill for compensation unless you would like to approach this in a different method. We are hoping to go live with this unit in the next few days once the gas fitting is completed. As stated above- Not required. I hope these responses help clarify the items in question. Regards, _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu May 26 14:28:53 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 14:28:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d1b691$1f155560$5d400020$@dovetailsolar.com> <770e6cd412d6417a873f730bc3c8f712@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <84D08E3F-8224-4D77-B9A1-DE9D3ABDC604@swnl.net> I believe that generator wire sizing is not the same as theNEC wiring sizing power coming from the utility. As the wiring /generator shorts the engine will slow there by reducing the output current. IF if IS UL certified, then I see no reason NOT to install the unit. You are not running those wires any distance, no more then 18” to a disconnect device. Large Kohler, Wisperwatt, Onans units do have the 12 wires from the alternator sized at 10 AWG to the breaker. > On May 26, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > I would find a way to load test the generator, let it run under load for four hours. If nothing breaks, you don't need to do anything. > > On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > > > Appreciate your thoughts on this. > > > > - This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx. 3' long from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in free air, but most is contained within the conduit. > > - the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A. > > - This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at full load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is suited to that. Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely possible during heavy loads & concurrent battery charging that it could well be running at max load for hrs at a time. > > > > The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug. > > > > The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing tells me that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I replace the wires myself then I believe I have voided the UL certification. But think have made a safer engine for my client. At the end of the day, it will be me who the client is calling if there is an issue. > > > > Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was either # 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm. > > > > Kevin > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Daniel Young > Sent: May-25-16 7:24 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues > > > > Kevin, > > > > Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points. > > > > On the 4AWG wire: > > > > Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table 310.15(B)(19). It’s rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z type or similar based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C) wiring is used. > > > > Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous (maybe it’s a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for a generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a generator depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In reality do you expect more than 120A to be a true “continuous” load on this unit. I don’t know the answer, just worth thinking about. > > > > Plastic bushings: > > > > I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL does not force them to, don’t expect them to include it. (Capitalism at work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing…. I would not do it on a new install, but it’s a useful trick when you walk up on existing mistakes. > > > > Lug: > > > > You could continuity test it to see if it’s a good connection, otherwise that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It’ll work fine for now, but not likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I’d just throw a star washer underneath if possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough. > > > > So there is a little bitta’ code and a lotta’ opinion. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues > > > > Wrenches, > > > > Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette. > > > > Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on metallic conduit, and ground lugs on top of painted surfaces / and insufficiently torqued. > > > > The engineer response has left me somewhat baffled / frustrated in that I do not feel that actual issues have been addressed. I don't really care what UL or any other authority tells me - pulling 175A continually for many hrs through a #4 wire I think is asking for trouble. And my customer won't really care about what the UL ratings say if they are dealing with a melted alternator. > > > > Am I missing something here? > > > > Kevin > > > > > > RE: SP-410-1-1LO S/N: > > > > I am responding to the concerns written below both in the capacity as designer and as U.L. liaison. > > > > We have received this generator, mostly intact. Some freight damage to the battery support cross member due to forks not extending the full depth of the crate, and are working with the freight company to resolve that. > > Sorry for the experienced freight damage. > > > > However, there are some SERIOUS and DANGEROUS issues pertaining to the wiring of the alternator! It is obvious that wiring was not done by an electrician. > > There are no serious or dangerous issues on this (built to U.L. recognized spec) Gillette Generator as referred to in this writing. And – you are correct- this wiring, as ‘factory wiring and not ‘field’ wiring, does not require or use the specific qualifications of a licensed electrician. The well trained/supervised workers here at Gillette have many years of experience building the product and are guided as need by a competent engineering staff. > > > > Specifically: > > > > - Alternator to circuit breaker wiring was done with #4 wire (rated 60A max). Per your own load chart inside the breaker enclosure (photo attached), that wire should be 4/0 to carry the 175A that this generator is capable of producing. > > This observation is incorrect. The load wiring sizing schedule affixed to the side of the circuit breaker box is for ‘field connectivity’ at 75 deg. F. We do our ‘factory wiring ‘ on a different schedule using load cabling from the generator to the top of the circuit breaker rated at 150 deg. F. All of this cabling has been done, tested and proven by U.L > > > > - There were no plastic bushings (see photo) where the wires exit the metal conduit. > > The conduit bushing involved is the correct U.L. approved component for the installation of spiral wound metal conduit required to be installed on ‘open’ style generator assemblies. A plastic bushing is NOT required as this is again ‘factory wiring’, not ‘field wiring. > > > > - What would have happened here is the wire heats up due to gross under sizing, melts the insulation, and shorts it out. Resulting in a fire or destruction of the brand new alternator, and the associated legal proceedings involving all parties and a general nightmare for all of us. > > disagree, on several fronts. Referencing the specification standard U.L. 2200, many times- local inspectors blur the line between its dominance for standby generator systems and NEC-70 (NEC- code). The former covers ‘factory’ design wiring on stationary standby generators subject to witness testing by a U.L. certified representative. The latter applies to ‘field wiring’- that is anything outside the box including connection conduits, load wiring ( at 75 deg. F) transfer switches, distribution panes and the like. As resident designer for the past twenty-six years, I have myself- written eight standards/code rebuttals successfully, both for U.L. and local inspectors. Comparing a 4ga, 2ga, 1ga and the like against a different class of wiring such as a 4/0 would certainly be cause for alarm. But, clearly here the alarm is unwarranted. > > > > - the ground lug on the alternator was not fastened properly (a short stud with a nut on it - no way to get proper torque on it - should be a bolt), and both this lug and the lug inside the breaker enclosure was fitted on top of a painted surface. Every electrician knows you need to scrape off the paint so as to allow for proper conductivity. > > This lug is not supplied by us. It is supplied as part of the generator construction built by Marathon. Marathon generators are certified for U.L. 1004B- generator assemblies and U.L. 1446 for insulation. This is the equipment issued as part of that U.L. certified design. as to their design vs. a ‘bolt’ going into the threads of the hole- if it was really an issue, it would not have passed their U.L. certification testing. Their generator assemblies bear their U.L. file certification under R/C (JZGZ2) and listing (JZGZ). In regards to the paint removal, the engine and generator are cable grounded to the frame of the generator assembly and serrated hardware is used during assembly to scratch into the painted surfaces of the boxes and frame. As you notice in the picture- the threads in the generator housing sleeve- are not painted. > > > > These are issues that we are able to remedy. But my client, being very hands on has noticed this and inquired, quite reasonably, as to why they are paying Energy Alternatives to repair something that they paid for and should have been delivered properly done in the first place? > > To my findings, there is no warrantable work required. > > > > I think the fairest solution to this is for us to remedy these defects and to have Collicutt reimburse use for time and materials. I will complete the work and send you the total bill for compensation unless you would like to approach this in a different method. We are hoping to go live with this unit in the next few days once the gas fitting is completed. > > As stated above- Not required. > > > > I hope these responses help clarify the items in question. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at ecotechenergy.com Thu May 26 18:26:03 2016 From: dana at ecotechenergy.com (Dana Brandt) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 15:26:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof In-Reply-To: <7075693d4865b6fa646c24824892b3b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7075693d4865b6fa646c24824892b3b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I'm curious if anyone has updates to this thread 3 years later. What are people using to lift modules to the roof? I've been looking at ladder hoists online and wondering how well they'd work in practice. Any experience or advice? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:44 AM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I imagine that all of us working in rooftop PV have put some good hard > thought on the best way to get the modules up to the roof. There are > various lifts on the market, you can hoist them with ropes manually, or > walk them up a ladder (sling them over your back). I find that the majority > of our competition in the Bay Area walks panels up the ladder for > residential projects. What is your feeling about OSHA compliance of doing > this? > > > > Best, > > > > > > August > > 415.559.1525 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu May 26 22:59:08 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 16:59:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof Message-ID: <8u5mf0u0ycrii18p2skdwgi8.1464317947448@email.android.com> Wrenches We got one, takes a long time to set up, it works great but it seams either we got a 1 story or a high rise. We also have a crane which is a little costly to deploy but sure looks cool. Something else we use up to 3 stories is a sizzer truck, the whole box lifts up to the height, picked it up from a military auction, was a plane loading truck. Works well for OSHA  Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Dana Brandt
Date:05/26/2016 12:26 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof
Hi Wrenches, I'm curious if anyone has updates to this thread 3 years later. What are people using to lift modules to the roof? I've been looking at ladder hoists online and wondering how well they'd work in practice. Any experience or advice? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:44 AM, August Goers wrote: Hi Wrenches, I imagine that all of us working in rooftop PV have put some good hard thought on the best way to get the modules up to the roof. There are various lifts on the market, you can hoist them with ropes manually, or walk them up a ladder (sling them over your back). I find that the majority of our competition in the Bay Area walks panels up the ladder for residential projects. What is your feeling about OSHA compliance of doing this? Best, August 415.559.1525 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Fri May 27 16:49:17 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 16:49:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MAGE AC modules Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I installed some Mage AC modules a few years back. These use the SolarBridge micro inverter. I have had a couple of these fail and would like to have one in stock for trouble shooting. I currently have one which appears to be failed based on the online data, but according to SunPower support I need to go onsite check all connections and measure all voltages and then call them with data to get the RMA started. They tell me I cannot buy a spare to pop in while I am there, as I am not a SunPower dealer. If any of you have one of these you would part with contact me off list. With REgards Carl Adams SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon May 30 12:46:10 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 16:46:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548 Message-ID: Hello I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. Once it does run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads meter. During start up it reads 60+ amps. Do you think better capacitors would help the situation? BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, about 9ft, with no benefit. The compressor will only start with the tank completely empty. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From taharvey at heliocentric.org Mon May 30 13:23:47 2016 From: taharvey at heliocentric.org (Troy) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 11:23:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Feed-in tariffs and internal offsets Message-ID: <55B6EBDE-F180-477C-8C83-A8E540C299C5@heliocentric.org> I am dealing with a small utility that only provides a small feed-in tariff (basically wholesale). Customer wouldn’t have much value to install PV when they sell in at 5 cents, and buy back at 8 cents. However, if we load shifted the PV to provide an internal offset on the consumption meter (but staying clear of exporting), and move any excess to the tariff meter we could make the PV more valuable by offsetting the 8 cent power first, rather than just producing 5 cent power all the time. Has anyone done this? Are there legal hurdles? Any reason one can be legally stopped from offsetting their own power? Thanks, Troy Heliocentric From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon May 30 14:03:06 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 12:03:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does your air compressor have an unloader valve, or can you install one? That should do the trick, sounds like you are just running into the regular high surge current demand. Off the grid, compressors are in about the same nasty league as old well pumps as far as surge demand. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Hello > I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. Once it does > run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads meter. During start up it reads > 60+ amps. > Do you think better capacitors would help the situation? > BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. > I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, about 9ft, with > no benefit. The compressor will only start with the tank completely empty. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com Mon May 30 14:33:33 2016 From: rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 13:33:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof harness Message-ID: It's been awhile since this question has been asked on this list, I'm hoping there's something new out there! Does anybody have a favorite OSHA-compliant safety harness that works well for pitched roofs? I'd be especially interested in one that has a front waist attachment point since working face-up on a steep residential roof is easier than with the attachment between the shoulders. Rebecca Lundberg ​Powerfully Green, MN​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon May 30 15:03:59 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 13:03:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof harness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The back dorsal D-ring is the ONLY place fall-arrest equipment should be attached. Any other spot and you could flip upside down during a fall, big trouble. The waist D-rings can be used for positioning, and the chest D-ring for positioning and also ladder climbing if a lad-safe cable or vertical lifeline is installed. There are many options for more comfortable hands-free, tool-use positioning on tricky roofs or towers, but they ALL include the back dorsal D-ring for the actual fall arrest. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Rebecca Lundberg < rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com> wrote: > It's been awhile since this question has been asked on this list, I'm > hoping there's something new out there! Does anybody have a favorite > OSHA-compliant safety harness that works well for pitched roofs? I'd be > especially interested in one that has a front waist attachment point since > working face-up on a steep residential roof is easier than with the > attachment between the shoulders. > > Rebecca Lundberg > ​Powerfully Green, MN​ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon May 30 14:54:04 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 11:54:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The (newer) SW5548 was harder on over current protection, mainly because it could put out more current than the SW4048... One trick to try is to place a long(ish) extension cord between the SW and the load to give it a wee bit of series resistance. Doing this would often reduce that OCP and help motors to start. boB On 5/30/2016 11:03 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > Does your air compressor have an unloader valve, or can you install one? > That should do the trick, sounds like you are just running into the > regular high surge current demand. > Off the grid, compressors are in about the same nasty league as old > well pumps as far as surge demand. > > > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > > wrote: > > Hello > I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. Once > it does run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads meter. During > start up it reads 60+ amps. > Do you think better capacitors would help the situation? > BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. > I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, about > 9ft, with no benefit. The compressor will only start with the tank > completely empty. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 30 13:48:11 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 10:48:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi jeremy, The 5548 has really poor surge, it's not a wire issue. I'm not sure caps will fix that. Jay Peltz power. > On May 30, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > Hello > I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. Once it does run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads meter. During start up it reads 60+ amps. > Do you think better capacitors would help the situation? > BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. > I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, about 9ft, with no benefit. The compressor will only start with the tank completely empty. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon May 30 15:24:28 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 13:24:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: boB, a spongey line on a load? Done it with windmills, never with a load. Makes complete sense to me, I'll add that to the old bag of tricks. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 12:54 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > The (newer) SW5548 was harder on over current protection, mainly because > > it could put out more current than the SW4048... > > One trick to try is to place a long(ish) extension cord between the SW and > the load to give it a wee bit of series resistance. > > Doing this would often reduce that OCP and help motors to start. > > boB > > On 5/30/2016 11:03 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Does your air compressor have an unloader valve, or can you install one? > That should do the trick, sounds like you are just running into the > regular high surge current demand. > Off the grid, compressors are in about the same nasty league as old well > pumps as far as surge demand. > > > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez < > allsolarjeremy at msn.com> wrote: > >> Hello >> I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. Once it >> does run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads meter. During start up it >> reads 60+ amps. >> Do you think better capacitors would help the situation? >> BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. >> I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, about 9ft, with >> no benefit. The compressor will only start with the tank completely empty. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon May 30 16:00:13 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 14:00:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <968941c0-2a90-b877-111d-1f43ca1b63e6@sindelarsolar.com> Yes, the SW4024 and SW4048 could start larger surge loads than the SW5548, because both allowed the output voltage to dip farther under surge. The 5548 was more tightly regulated in order to reduce the flickering caused by the voltage dip of a large motor under load. I learned this around 2002 when I was designing Jane Fonda's GTWB system for her ranch in Pecos NM. We used three inverters: an SW4048 for background fridges, pumps and mechanicals, an SW5548 for normal house loads, and an Exeltech MX series for clean A/V & computer circuits. The two SWs were not stacked, running to separate 120V load centers. Still working, although she's no longer the owner. Original battery bank, still (Surrette 1104 AH(?) KS-series, two strings)... Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 5/30/2016 1:24 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > boB, a spongey line on a load? Done it with windmills, never with a > load. Makes complete sense to me, I'll add that to the old bag of tricks. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 12:54 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com > > wrote: > > > The (newer) SW5548 was harder on over current protection, mainly > because > > it could put out more current than the SW4048... > > One trick to try is to place a long(ish) extension cord between > the SW and the load to give it a wee bit of series resistance. > > Doing this would often reduce that OCP and help motors to start. > > boB > > > On 5/30/2016 11:03 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> Does your air compressor have an unloader valve, or can you >> install one? >> That should do the trick, sounds like you are just running into >> the regular high surge current demand. >> Off the grid, compressors are in about the same nasty league as >> old well pumps as far as surge demand. >> >> >> >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez >> > wrote: >> >> Hello >> I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. >> Once it does run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads >> meter. During start up it reads 60+ amps. >> Do you think better capacitors would help the situation? >> BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. >> I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, >> about 9ft, with no benefit. The compressor will only start >> with the tank completely empty. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon May 30 16:48:17 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 20:48:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Bob Can you elaborate a little on this extension cord idea either here or off-line? Thank you Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On May 30, 2016, at 1:15 PM, "bob at midnitesolar.com" > wrote: The (newer) SW5548 was harder on over current protection, mainly because it could put out more current than the SW4048... One trick to try is to place a long(ish) extension cord between the SW and the load to give it a wee bit of series resistance. Doing this would often reduce that OCP and help motors to start. boB On 5/30/2016 11:03 AM, Dan Fink wrote: Does your air compressor have an unloader valve, or can you install one? That should do the trick, sounds like you are just running into the regular high surge current demand. Off the grid, compressors are in about the same nasty league as old well pumps as far as surge demand. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor(tm) for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers(tm) 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez <allsolarjeremy at msn.com> wrote: Hello I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. Once it does run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads meter. During start up it reads 60+ amps. Do you think better capacitors would help the situation? BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, about 9ft, with no benefit. The compressor will only start with the tank completely empty. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon May 30 18:41:35 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 15:41:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/30/2016 1:48 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Bob > Can you elaborate a little on this extension cord idea either here or > off-line? Thank you Sure. The extension cord, in this case, is just added resistance. Some inductance but mainly resistance. The current from the starting load is reduced by the voltage being dropped along the cable. So instead of the SW sourcing quite as much current, it sees less current but some power is dissipated along the extension cord. Way more power at high surge of course since power (Watts) is current squared times cable resistance. If the startup current doubles, then the power dissipated in the cord quadruples during that surge time. This less current drawn from the SW inverter allows the voltage at the motor to drop as was mentioned and the Over Current Protection (OCP) inside the SW does not get activated (hopefully) and the output voltage does not go to zero. Since the motor startup is fairly short, there isn't much lost energy in the cord. Also, since the cable is sort of long-ish, the power dissipated is fairly nicely spread out along the cord and no one spot gets hot, except maybe the plug. You could also just add longer real wire or a resistor. Fun Ohm's law stuff. boB > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On May 30, 2016, at 1:15 PM, "bob at midnitesolar.com > " > wrote: > >> >> The (newer) SW5548 was harder on over current protection, mainly because >> >> it could put out more current than the SW4048... >> >> One trick to try is to place a long(ish) extension cord between the >> SW and the load to give it a wee bit of series resistance. >> >> Doing this would often reduce that OCP and help motors to start. >> >> boB >> >> >> On 5/30/2016 11:03 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> Does your air compressor have an unloader valve, or can you install >>> one? >>> That should do the trick, sounds like you are just running into the >>> regular high surge current demand. >>> Off the grid, compressors are in about the same nasty league as old >>> well pumps as far as surge demand. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello >>> I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. >>> Once it does run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads meter. >>> During start up it reads 60+ amps. >>> Do you think better capacitors would help the situation? >>> BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. >>> I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, about >>> 9ft, with no benefit. The compressor will only start with the >>> tank completely empty. >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation And Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Mon May 30 19:59:29 2016 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 17:59:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. Thanks Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 30 21:15:26 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 18:15:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545B1EA2-4431-44F4-BDB1-C93AE72359B8@gmail.com> Curious, what is the actual voltage and the nominal voltage? Jay Peltz power > On May 30, 2016, at 4:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. > > Thanks > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon May 30 21:18:55 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 19:18:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ca01d1bada$67254e30$356fea90$@com> Any sign of escaped smoke? I had a Classic 150 go south this winter but the client lives in the house and caught it immediately. No visible damage on it the screen was blank. The replacement was a used/refurbished unit with blackened inside front cover; client was not too happy and caught a verbal bashing for complaining from Midnite. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Mandelkorn Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 5:59 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. Thanks Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon May 30 21:58:35 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 18:58:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Uh OH !! Not good ! The Classic will turn on at around 9 volts DC input and will continue to run down to something around 4.5 volts input. So, maybe the batteries aren't "zero" volts at least. You can wait until tomorrow to call in OR go to the www.midnitesolar.com web site and start an on-line technical support request or, better... both. boB On 5/30/2016 4:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter > access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has > failed. The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen > will flash occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front > of the controller but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum > voltage requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced > this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. > > Thanks > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon May 30 20:08:26 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 20:08:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] closets and working space Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, We'd like to put a combo panel in a coat closet (its shallow and wide) right next to the existing panel. With the doors open (they are pocket doors) it is fine with working space requirements. I know the AHJ will have the ultimate say and am checkin in with them as well but wondering if anyone has thoughts on why that could be a bad idea? Thanks Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon May 30 22:43:07 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 20:43:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start charging, at least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a sunny day, the PV input breaker had tripped, batteries were under 9v, no charging despite the sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up with jumper cables from my truck battery. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter access. > It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. The > batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash > occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller > but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement > needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out > what happened to cause this issue. > > Thanks > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Mon May 30 22:59:06 2016 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 20:59:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks all for the replies. Battery voltage was 13v on this 48 volt system. How they drained so low I just don't know. Low batter cut off was set and there were no DC loads. Not to sure what to make if this. Will be contacting midnite tomorrow. Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com On May 30, 2016 8:43 PM, "Dan Fink" wrote: > MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start charging, at > least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a sunny day, the PV > input breaker had tripped, batteries were under 9v, no charging despite the > sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up with jumper cables from my truck > battery. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn > wrote: > >> Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter >> access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. >> The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash >> occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller >> but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement >> needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out >> what happened to cause this issue. >> >> Thanks >> >> Aaron Mandelkorn >> Owner/Solar Specialist >> Renewable Energy Outfitters >> www.reosolar.com >> www.offgriddepot.biz >> 970-596-3744 >> 719-221-5249 >> reosolar at gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue May 31 00:08:47 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 22:08:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Feed-in tariffs and internal offsets In-Reply-To: <55B6EBDE-F180-477C-8C83-A8E540C299C5@heliocentric.org> References: <55B6EBDE-F180-477C-8C83-A8E540C299C5@heliocentric.org> Message-ID: Hi Troy, Does this little utility have a Time of Use rate structure? How often do they true up (pay the customer for their extra power)? There are various markets that this makes sense, Germany, Hawaii etc. They call this type of system a self-consumption system. It does require energy storage/management. There are quite a few companies out there that are doing this now, Outback, Schneider Electric, Sonnen etc. The pricing that you are stating $0.08 retail, will make this extremely difficult (impossible) to offer any type of payback for a system like this. However, you can offer excellent backup power and a "future-proof" system ready for almost any type of rate structure. Some of these systems can also intelligently reduce demand charges by exporting power out of the battery bank during high energy use. What makes the most sense will really depend on the rate structure. If the utility says that they will pay whole sale for overproduction, ask them how often they check the meter. Do they net-meter? When is the check cut for excess energy production? It's common for a utility to only pay whole-sale for over-production, but allow you to off-set retail electricity rates. We have a utility that used to pay off any excess in January. This was a rotten deal for solar customers because they would get paid whole sale for what they over produced in the summer in the dark days of winter would be buying retail. They have changed this policy to have a continuous rollover option. Good Luck On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Troy wrote: > I am dealing with a small utility that only provides a small feed-in > tariff (basically wholesale). Customer wouldn’t have much value to install > PV when they sell in at 5 cents, and buy back at 8 cents. > > However, if we load shifted the PV to provide an internal offset on the > consumption meter (but staying clear of exporting), and move any excess to > the tariff meter we could make the PV more valuable by offsetting the 8 > cent power first, rather than just producing 5 cent power all the time. > > Has anyone done this? Are there legal hurdles? Any reason one can be > legally stopped from offsetting their own power? > > Thanks, > > Troy > Heliocentric > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Tue May 31 00:35:15 2016 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 22:35:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The more I think about this the stranger it seems. All system breakers were left on before leaving for the winter. Inverter was also on to power two small AC fans. How can a 48 volt battery bank get so discharged to the point of almost complete depletion (13.7 volts). The inverter low battery cutout was programmed to 48.1v and there are no DC loads. Isn't the point of lbco to protect against this exact situation? What could have brought this bank down so low? I am wondering if my client may have reset the lbco and other settings by throwing the inverter breaker by accident. Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com On May 30, 2016 8:43 PM, "Dan Fink" wrote: > MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start charging, at > least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a sunny day, the PV > input breaker had tripped, batteries were under 9v, no charging despite the > sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up with jumper cables from my truck > battery. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn > wrote: > >> Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter >> access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. >> The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash >> occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller >> but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement >> needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out >> what happened to cause this issue. >> >> Thanks >> >> Aaron Mandelkorn >> Owner/Solar Specialist >> Renewable Energy Outfitters >> www.reosolar.com >> www.offgriddepot.biz >> 970-596-3744 >> 719-221-5249 >> reosolar at gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon May 30 22:53:49 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 19:53:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, the 9V is because of the auxiliary power supply that powers everything inside. Not just the Classic of course. Lots of voltages and various power levels required to run these things. And charcoal inside a Classic refurb ! Hmmm... You can be sure... There WILL be spankings ! boB On 5/30/2016 7:43 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start > charging, at least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a > sunny day, the PV input breaker had tripped, batteries were under 9v, > no charging despite the sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up with > jumper cables from my truck battery. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn > wrote: > > Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter > access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has > failed. The batteries are completely discharged. The classics > screen will flash occasionally as well as a yellow light on this > left front of the controller but wont turn on. Does the classic > have a minimum voltage requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone > else experienced this? I can't figure out what happened to cause > this issue. > > Thanks > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue May 31 02:02:45 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 00:02:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] closets and working space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99110554-6054-4643-9710-4370DE4C853B@skyfireenergy.com> I dont recall the specific rule off the top of my head, but I'm sure Canadian Electrical Code says that panelboards are specifically not allowed to be installed in closets. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On May 30, 2016, at 6:08 PM, AE Solar wrote: > > Hey Wrenches, > We'd like to put a combo panel in a coat closet (its shallow and wide) right next to the existing panel. With the doors open (they are pocket doors) it is fine with working space requirements. I know the AHJ will have the ultimate say and am checkin in with them as well but wondering if anyone has thoughts on why that could be a bad idea? > Thanks > Adam > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon May 30 23:26:53 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 20:26:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97fae3ee-8419-32cc-87b8-c5857883238f@midnitesolar.com> Aaron, there may or may not be an explanation for WHY this happened. We really love it when there is one though. But being electronics and especially power electronics, it can go up without rhyme or reason even though lots have gone into catching failures before shipping units. Four to eight hours of burn in is done on every charger... This involves heating/cooling at regular intervals to get things to fail. But sometimes it just happens. Even cosmic rays can be the culprit if they happen to go through just the right place on a silicon die in the power stage transistors. Hard to catch one of those. Lightning of course and its HV electric fields nearby are also possible. Then again it could be a bad solder joint or component. i.e Workmanship. In that regard, just shipping a unit can jar something loose. We (Midnite) do a physical slight shock test on every unit as well but, sometimes UPS and their gentle shipping methods can shake something loose that should not have moved around. Power products are very difficult to do for all the companies. Hopefully we can get even better at catching failures at the factory before they get out. There is some of this production and testing methods on a video on our web site that might give you an idea of how we make these. Front page, upper left corner as I remember. Factory tour or similar. boB On 5/30/2016 7:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > Thanks all for the replies. Battery voltage was 13v on this 48 volt > system. How they drained so low I just don't know. Low batter cut off > was set and there were no DC loads. Not to sure what to make if this. > Will be contacting midnite tomorrow. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > On May 30, 2016 8:43 PM, "Dan Fink" > wrote: > > MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start > charging, at least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a > sunny day, the PV input breaker had tripped, batteries were under > 9v, no charging despite the sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up > with jumper cables from my truck battery. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn > > wrote: > > Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no > winter access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge > controller has failed. The batteries are completely > discharged. The classics screen will flash occasionally as > well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller > but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage > requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced > this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. > > Thanks > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue May 31 11:27:25 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 11:27:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump Message-ID: <20160531152804.E2C583E405C@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, A couple years back we installed a Shurflo 9325-043-101 water pump. It runs array direct. After installation, it worked fine. Since then, it has not been used. The client tried to operate it recently,and it didn't work. A red light is showing in the controller. How well do these systems hold up if not used? I haven't gone out to the site yet, but wanted to get some background from you water pumping guys about shelf life of idle systems. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 31 11:15:01 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 08:15:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CE7D483-81F1-4857-B6DF-179EA6FAF90A@gmail.com> Dan from Exeltech gave a really good explanation of how an inverter can actually start using power ( not loads) at a voltage well below the LBCO. It could also be a bad battery. Jay Peltz power. > On May 30, 2016, at 9:35 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > The more I think about this the stranger it seems. All system breakers were left on before leaving for the winter. Inverter was also on to power two small AC fans. How can a 48 volt battery bank get so discharged to the point of almost complete depletion (13.7 volts). The inverter low battery cutout was programmed to 48.1v and there are no DC loads. Isn't the point of lbco to protect against this exact situation? What could have brought this bank down so low? I am wondering if my client may have reset the lbco and other settings by throwing the inverter breaker by accident. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > > >> On May 30, 2016 8:43 PM, "Dan Fink" wrote: >> MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start charging, at least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a sunny day, the PV input breaker had tripped, batteries were under 9v, no charging despite the sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up with jumper cables from my truck battery. >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >>> On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: >>> Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Aaron Mandelkorn >>> Owner/Solar Specialist >>> Renewable Energy Outfitters >>> www.reosolar.com >>> www.offgriddepot.biz >>> 970-596-3744 >>> 719-221-5249 >>> reosolar at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue May 31 11:20:28 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 08:20:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] closets and working space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Adam, Check out “NEC 240.24(D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitable material, such as in clothes closets.” -August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *AE Solar *Sent:* Monday, May 30, 2016 5:08 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] closets and working space Hey Wrenches, We'd like to put a combo panel in a coat closet (its shallow and wide) right next to the existing panel. With the doors open (they are pocket doors) it is fine with working space requirements. I know the AHJ will have the ultimate say and am checkin in with them as well but wondering if anyone has thoughts on why that could be a bad idea? Thanks Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue May 31 12:54:25 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:54:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Aaron, A customer of mine had a very similar situation happen couple years ago, except with the added fun of frozen batteries, split open and a resulting mess. (system was installed by others without a proper battery box / spill containment). This fault was traced back to a failed MX60 controller that was not only preventing solar input, but had a small parasitic load on the system that was enough to discharge the batteries. Replaced controller, new batteries (with spill containment!) and the system has been fine since. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Mandelkorn Sent: May-30-16 9:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? The more I think about this the stranger it seems. All system breakers were left on before leaving for the winter. Inverter was also on to power two small AC fans. How can a 48 volt battery bank get so discharged to the point of almost complete depletion (13.7 volts). The inverter low battery cutout was programmed to 48.1v and there are no DC loads. Isn't the point of lbco to protect against this exact situation? What could have brought this bank down so low? I am wondering if my client may have reset the lbco and other settings by throwing the inverter breaker by accident. Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com On May 30, 2016 8:43 PM, "Dan Fink" > wrote: MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start charging, at least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a sunny day, the PV input breaker had tripped, batteries were under 9v, no charging despite the sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up with jumper cables from my truck battery. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn > wrote: Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. Thanks Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue May 31 12:58:03 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 16:58:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump In-Reply-To: <20160531152804.E2C583E405C@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20160531152804.E2C583E405C@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi Drake, We have a lot of these pumps in the field, operating without issue for many years, though they are generally operating on some sort of regular basis. But lots of customers with seasonal situations that may have the pump idle for 10 months a year. I would suggest applying 12/24VDC battery power directly to the pump bypassing controller and see if you get any action, then can narrow down if it is a pump issue or a controller issue. Another issue is the waterproof gland if not done properly can result in connection issues. Have had a few of those. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: May-31-16 8:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump Hello Wrenches, A couple years back we installed a Shurflo 9325-043-101 water pump. It runs array direct. After installation, it worked fine. Since then, it has not been used. The client tried to operate it recently,and it didn't work. A red light is showing in the controller. How well do these systems hold up if not used? I haven't gone out to the site yet, but wanted to get some background from you water pumping guys about shelf life of idle systems. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue May 31 13:40:34 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 13:40:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Battery Box Message-ID: Hi All, We have a local inspector who is asking us to use metal battery boxes instead of plastic. Ideally something that is UL-listed if that even exists, but we were able to push back on that. Does anyone have any recommendations for a metal battery box that will hold 8 or 16 L16 FLA batteries? Thanks, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Tue May 31 13:43:48 2016 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 11:43:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you everyone for your input. I am quite sure this controller was just doing what it was supposed to do. The inverter disconnected from low voltage and the solar modules were covered with snow for months. The classic was trying to reconnect all this time and I believe acted as a load on the batteries. Essentially the classic brought the system down but poor design and actions by the customer are what led to this disaster. I will be pulling the batteries and changing/ load testing at the shop. Hopefully we didn't destroy this battery bank. Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com Hi Aaron, A customer of mine had a very similar situation happen couple years ago, except with the added fun of frozen batteries, split open and a resulting mess. (system was installed by others without a proper battery box / spill containment). This fault was traced back to a failed MX60 controller that was not only preventing solar input, but had a small parasitic load on the system that was enough to discharge the batteries. Replaced controller, new batteries (with spill containment!) and the system has been fine since. Kevin *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Aaron Mandelkorn *Sent:* May-30-16 9:35 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? The more I think about this the stranger it seems. All system breakers were left on before leaving for the winter. Inverter was also on to power two small AC fans. How can a 48 volt battery bank get so discharged to the point of almost complete depletion (13.7 volts). The inverter low battery cutout was programmed to 48.1v and there are no DC loads. Isn't the point of lbco to protect against this exact situation? What could have brought this bank down so low? I am wondering if my client may have reset the lbco and other settings by throwing the inverter breaker by accident. Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com On May 30, 2016 8:43 PM, "Dan Fink" wrote: MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start charging, at least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a sunny day, the PV input breaker had tripped, batteries were under 9v, no charging despite the sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up with jumper cables from my truck battery. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. Thanks Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Tue May 31 14:10:42 2016 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 14:10:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Battery Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Corrected email address..message below On May 31, 2016 1:56 PM, "Ken Schaal" wrote: > For years we've used site built, cement board boxes. ..like Hardy board or > Durock. > For insulated box, use EPS foam and line with cement board. > Ken Schaal Commonwealthsolar.com > Hi All, > > We have a local inspector who is asking us to use metal battery boxes > instead of plastic. > > Ideally something that is UL-listed if that even exists, but we were able > to push back on that. > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a metal battery box that will > hold 8 or 16 L16 FLA batteries? > > Thanks, > Dave > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue May 31 14:49:52 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 11:49:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Battery Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e248c0a16fa4741ba20e65221b40184@mail.gmail.com> Hi Dave, We’re used Midnite’s battery enclosures with good success: http://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?productCat_ID=12&productCat_ID=12&productCatName=Battery See the MNBE-CL16 Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan *Sent:* Tuesday, May 31, 2016 10:41 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Metal Battery Box Hi All, We have a local inspector who is asking us to use metal battery boxes instead of plastic. Ideally something that is UL-listed if that even exists, but we were able to push back on that. Does anyone have any recommendations for a metal battery box that will hold 8 or 16 L16 FLA batteries? Thanks, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue May 31 14:52:04 2016 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 14:52:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Battery Box References: Message-ID: <208596CA4F8D4578B959A63CFE9B1AE1@PeterPC> Dave You can reach out to Franklin at Silent Indoor generator in Riviera beach Fl. Makes a simple but great rolling metal battery box with room for inverters, charge controllers and mates. peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Tedeyan To: RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 1:40 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Battery Box Hi All, We have a local inspector who is asking us to use metal battery boxes instead of plastic. Ideally something that is UL-listed if that even exists, but we were able to push back on that. Does anyone have any recommendations for a metal battery box that will hold 8 or 16 L16 FLA batteries? Thanks, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan Project Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue May 31 15:30:36 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 13:30:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump In-Reply-To: References: <20160531152804.E2C583E405C@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi Drake, I'll second Kevin's suggestion that it may be the waterproofing gland. I see this as a very weak part of this pumps design and won't ever use that pump again because of it. The aquatec SWP-4000 is a very similar pump. Pump manufacturers should take responsibility for the water-proofing into their unit. Under water splices are super easy compared to the gland/grease mess routine required with these pumps. As Kevin suggested, bypass the controller and put good ~ 24VDC down there (using batteries off of your cordless tools works well for this) These pumps will pump off 18-20V. Good luck On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Drake, > > > > We have a lot of these pumps in the field, operating without issue for > many years, though they are generally operating on some sort of regular > basis. But lots of customers with seasonal situations that may have the > pump idle for 10 months a year. > > > > I would suggest applying 12/24VDC battery power directly to the pump > bypassing controller and see if you get any action, then can narrow down if > it is a pump issue or a controller issue. Another issue is the waterproof > gland if not done properly can result in connection issues. Have had a few > of those. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* May-31-16 8:27 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > A couple years back we installed a Shurflo 9325-043-101 water pump. It > runs array direct. After installation, it worked fine. Since then, it has > not been used. The client tried to operate it recently,and it didn't work. > A red light is showing in the controller. > > How well do these systems hold up if not used? > > I haven't gone out to the site yet, but wanted to get some background from > you water pumping guys about shelf life of idle systems. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue May 31 15:24:26 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 12:24:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61ce6ec0-dd1c-a256-2e71-75b2656485fc@midnitesolar.com> Aaron, lead acid batteries will "self discharge". Letting them sit for more than a couple of weeks may not be that good for them as they can sulfate without a good absorb charge cycle every once in a while at least for a couple of hours. The inverter and charge controller will always draw some power from the batteries just being connected. This is due mainly to the internal auxiliary supplies and microprocessors. If the main battery breakers were turned off when the customer left for the winter, the batteries will still discharge themselves and start to sulfate but the voltage dropping would not happen quite as fast. You might want to add a small backup generator and tilt the PV array more vertical to help shed the snow during the winter months if nobody is around to take care of the system. boB On 5/31/2016 10:43 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > Thank you everyone for your input. I am quite sure this controller was > just doing what it was supposed to do. The inverter disconnected from > low voltage and the solar modules were covered with snow for months. > The classic was trying to reconnect all this time and I believe acted > as a load on the batteries. Essentially the classic brought the system > down but poor design and actions by the customer are what led to this > disaster. I will be pulling the batteries and changing/ load testing > at the shop. Hopefully we didn't destroy this battery bank. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > Hi Aaron, > > A customer of mine had a very similar situation happen couple years > ago, except with the added fun of frozen batteries, split open and a > resulting mess. (system was installed by others without a proper > battery box / spill containment). > > This fault was traced back to a failed MX60 controller that was not > only preventing solar input, but had a small parasitic load on the > system that was enough to discharge the batteries. Replaced > controller, new batteries (with spill containment!) and the system has > been fine since. > > Kevin > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Aaron Mandelkorn > *Sent:* May-30-16 9:35 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? > > The more I think about this the stranger it seems. All system breakers > were left on before leaving for the winter. Inverter was also on to > power two small AC fans. How can a 48 volt battery bank get so > discharged to the point of almost complete depletion (13.7 volts). The > inverter low battery cutout was programmed to 48.1v and there are no > DC loads. Isn't the point of lbco to protect against this exact > situation? What could have brought this bank down so low? I am > wondering if my client may have reset the lbco and other settings by > throwing the inverter breaker by accident. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > On May 30, 2016 8:43 PM, "Dan Fink" > wrote: > > MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start > charging, at least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a > sunny day, the PV input breaker had tripped, batteries were under > 9v, no charging despite the sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up > with jumper cables from my truck battery. > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn > > wrote: > > Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no > winter access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge > controller has failed. The batteries are completely > discharged. The classics screen will flash occasionally as > well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller > but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage > requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced > this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. > > Thanks > > Aaron Mandelkorn > Owner/Solar Specialist > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > www.offgriddepot.biz > 970-596-3744 > 719-221-5249 > reosolar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Tue May 31 16:39:11 2016 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 14:39:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? In-Reply-To: References: <61ce6ec0-dd1c-a256-2e71-75b2656485fc@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks Bob. We are using agm batteries and everything should have been turned off including the battery box breakers before the customer left. We could deal with a few months of self discharge. The array was snow covered at max tilt due to it being on a hillside and not tall enough. Controller cycling and inverter brought the system down. This customer also refused to have his generator hooked up to a auto start module for fear it would be completely snow covered. Go figure. Pulling the batteries to see if they are salvageable. Never working with diy homeowners again. Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com On May 31, 2016 2:12 PM, "bob at midnitesolar.com" wrote: Aaron, lead acid batteries will "self discharge". Letting them sit for more than a couple of weeks may not be that good for them as they can sulfate without a good absorb charge cycle every once in a while at least for a couple of hours. The inverter and charge controller will always draw some power from the batteries just being connected. This is due mainly to the internal auxiliary supplies and microprocessors. If the main battery breakers were turned off when the customer left for the winter, the batteries will still discharge themselves and start to sulfate but the voltage dropping would not happen quite as fast. You might want to add a small backup generator and tilt the PV array more vertical to help shed the snow during the winter months if nobody is around to take care of the system. boB On 5/31/2016 10:43 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: Thank you everyone for your input. I am quite sure this controller was just doing what it was supposed to do. The inverter disconnected from low voltage and the solar modules were covered with snow for months. The classic was trying to reconnect all this time and I believe acted as a load on the batteries. Essentially the classic brought the system down but poor design and actions by the customer are what led to this disaster. I will be pulling the batteries and changing/ load testing at the shop. Hopefully we didn't destroy this battery bank. Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com Hi Aaron, A customer of mine had a very similar situation happen couple years ago, except with the added fun of frozen batteries, split open and a resulting mess. (system was installed by others without a proper battery box / spill containment). This fault was traced back to a failed MX60 controller that was not only preventing solar input, but had a small parasitic load on the system that was enough to discharge the batteries. Replaced controller, new batteries (with spill containment!) and the system has been fine since. Kevin *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Aaron Mandelkorn *Sent:* May-30-16 9:35 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fried Classic150? The more I think about this the stranger it seems. All system breakers were left on before leaving for the winter. Inverter was also on to power two small AC fans. How can a 48 volt battery bank get so discharged to the point of almost complete depletion (13.7 volts). The inverter low battery cutout was programmed to 48.1v and there are no DC loads. Isn't the point of lbco to protect against this exact situation? What could have brought this bank down so low? I am wondering if my client may have reset the lbco and other settings by throwing the inverter breaker by accident. Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com On May 30, 2016 8:43 PM, "Dan Fink" wrote: MPPT does need a minimum battery voltage to wake up and start charging, at least 9 volts -- I once arrived at a remote site on a sunny day, the PV input breaker had tripped, batteries were under 9v, no charging despite the sunny weather until I woke the MPPT up with jumper cables from my truck battery. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: Hi all. I returned to a off grid site today after having no winter access. It appears as though the classic 150 charge controller has failed. The batteries are completely discharged. The classics screen will flash occasionally as well as a yellow light on this left front of the controller but wont turn on. Does the classic have a minimum voltage requirement needed to turn on? Has anyone else experienced this? I can't figure out what happened to cause this issue. Thanks Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com www.offgriddepot.biz 970-596-3744 719-221-5249 reosolar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue May 31 22:08:57 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 20:08:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Battery Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C97AD43-C601-45D0-9179-8AFBE2157C1D@skyfireenergy.com> Is this an electrical inspector? And is the inspector citing a specific code rule, as per his request? Unless he is enforcing a code rule I don't believe he has any authority to specify the battery box material. Unless he backs up his request with a specific rule then you could respectfully decline and use whatever you wish, as long as it is done properly, and to code. Not that here is anything wrong with metal battery boxes. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On May 31, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > We have a local inspector who is asking us to use metal battery boxes instead of plastic. > > Ideally something that is UL-listed if that even exists, but we were able to push back on that. > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a metal battery box that will hold 8 or 16 L16 FLA batteries? > > Thanks, > Dave > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan > Project Engineer > > Taitem Engineering, PC > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Jun 1 01:54:35 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 23:54:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump In-Reply-To: References: <20160531152804.E2C583E405C@homiemail-a46.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <542693ed-42a2-a6f7-14ed-e26c79368dbe@sindelarsolar.com> Mac, My experience is similar but slightly different. I have worked with the Shurflo 9300 for nearly twenty years. I have closely followed the mfgr's directions - even the temporary wrap of tape - and as far as I can recall have had maybe one failure due to water penetration at the cable gland. But I have seen a number of homeowner installs with this failure, so it's easy to not get right. I agree that a fixed, sealed pigtail would be a better approach, like a SunRotor, Grundfos or Lorentz. The 9300 has a one-year warranty as I recall. Running open discharge without float or time control, such as all day into a wildlife pond with overflow, the pumps last about 1 1/2 years before needing the diaphragm/drive kit and valve kit for a minor rebuild. If water never reaches the motor, it will last through several of these lifetimes, but usually folks don't do the service until the pump stops, and often a failed diaphragm leads to water reaching the motor. But I have seen many of these pumps go five or more years of intermittent duty needing nothing. And the pump will run at less than half speed on a 12V battery. Standard DC brush motor - speed and thus output vary directly with voltage. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 5/31/2016 1:30 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Drake, > > I'll second Kevin's suggestion that it may be the waterproofing > gland. I see this as a very weak part of this pumps design and won't > ever use that pump again because of it. The aquatec SWP-4000 is a > very similar pump. Pump manufacturers should take responsibility for > the water-proofing into their unit. Under water splices are super > easy compared to the gland/grease mess routine required with these pumps. > > As Kevin suggested, bypass the controller and put good ~ 24VDC down > there (using batteries off of your cordless tools works well for this) > These pumps will pump off 18-20V. > > Good luck > > On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Kevin Pegg > > wrote: > > Hi Drake, > > We have a lot of these pumps in the field, operating without issue > for many years, though they are generally operating on some sort > of regular basis. But lots of customers with seasonal situations > that may have the pump idle for 10 months a year. > > I would suggest applying 12/24VDC battery power directly to the > pump bypassing controller and see if you get any action, then can > narrow down if it is a pump issue or a controller issue. Another > issue is the waterproof gland if not done properly can result in > connection issues. Have had a few of those. > > Kevin > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Drake > *Sent:* May-31-16 8:27 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump > > Hello Wrenches, > > A couple years back we installed a Shurflo 9325-043-101 water > pump. It runs array direct. After installation, it worked fine. > Since then, it has not been used. The client tried to operate it > recently,and it didn't work. A red light is showing in the controller. > > How well do these systems hold up if not used? > > I haven't gone out to the site yet, but wanted to get some > background from you water pumping guys about shelf life of idle > systems. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Wed Jun 1 09:30:00 2016 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:30:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof harness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan (or others), Will you please elaborate on the statement, “There are many options for more comfortable hands-free, tool-use positioning on tricky roofs…”? We have the same issue as Rebecca, where we have not found a comfortable and cost effective method to deploy fall protection on roofs too steep to walk. On 33°+ roofs we are currently using a retractable to the rear D-ring and a rope for positioning to the front waist D-rings. There are a few issues with this method, but it is the only one our local OSHA compliance officer will agree is acceptable when using the front D-ring for positioning on a steep roof. Any better ideas would be greatly appreciated. Rebecca, to answer your specific question, we use the Guardian Edge Tower harness which has a saddle with front D-rings for positioning. It’s very comfortable and breaths better than the comparable Sala Exofit. Thanks, Garrison Riegel Solar Service Inc. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 2:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roof harness The back dorsal D-ring is the ONLY place fall-arrest equipment should be attached. Any other spot and you could flip upside down during a fall, big trouble. The waist D-rings can be used for positioning, and the chest D-ring for positioning and also ladder climbing if a lad-safe cable or vertical lifeline is installed. There are many options for more comfortable hands-free, tool-use positioning on tricky roofs or towers, but they ALL include the back dorsal D-ring for the actual fall arrest. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Rebecca Lundberg > wrote: It's been awhile since this question has been asked on this list, I'm hoping there's something new out there! Does anybody have a favorite OSHA-compliant safety harness that works well for pitched roofs? I'd be especially interested in one that has a front waist attachment point since working face-up on a steep residential roof is easier than with the attachment between the shoulders. Rebecca Lundberg ​Powerfully Green, MN​ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 10:01:53 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 09:01:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Battery Box In-Reply-To: <5C97AD43-C601-45D0-9179-8AFBE2157C1D@skyfireenergy.com> References: <5C97AD43-C601-45D0-9179-8AFBE2157C1D@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <8A076B6D-BC21-4E8D-815A-205EFA411A84@gmail.com> I've had boxes made by a local dad shop for places that a pre-made box wouldn't fit. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On May 31, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Is this an electrical inspector? And is the inspector citing a specific code rule, as per his request? > Unless he is enforcing a code rule I don't believe he has any authority to specify the battery box material. > Unless he backs up his request with a specific rule then you could respectfully decline and use whatever you wish, as long as it is done properly, and to code. > Not that here is anything wrong with metal battery boxes. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > >> On May 31, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> We have a local inspector who is asking us to use metal battery boxes instead of plastic. >> >> Ideally something that is UL-listed if that even exists, but we were able to push back on that. >> >> Does anyone have any recommendations for a metal battery box that will hold 8 or 16 L16 FLA batteries? >> >> Thanks, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> Project Engineer >> >> Taitem Engineering, PC >> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> www.taitem.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at windstreamsolar.com Wed Jun 1 14:53:12 2016 From: gary at windstreamsolar.com (Gary Higbee) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 11:53:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake and Wrenches, Interesting timing as I experienced a failure with my 9300 a couple weeks ago. I originally installed the pump about 17 years ago for an off-grid cabin I had then. I put the pump in the well, tested it, then removed it after a year or so. In total it had about 30 minutes of run time. The pump sat around in the house for about 15 years before I tested it in a bucket, in preparation for installing it in a new well on a different piece of land. The test went fine though I decided to put a new gland connector on the wire, which was a royal pain. The 10 ga submersible wire just met the maximum width noted in the documentation yet the hard plastic collar seemed to rub hard on the wire jacket when assembled and screwed in. Down the new hole went the pump and we ran it solar-direct for testing. To our joy up came the water. Thirty minutes later, to our great dismay, the pump ran very slow then stopped (oh, from joy to despair in such a short time!). Testing showed module current around Isc for those conditions and only a couple volts, about 1 ohm with the module disconnected. Up came the works and we connected the module directly to the pump. No go. It seemed there may have been a little water where the gland connected to the pump socket, or it may have been a drip. I haven’t taken the pump apart yet so don’t know if it’s got water in it (expect it does). My guess is either the new gland connection had some problem OR the pump seals deteriorated as it sat on the shelf all those years (argh, should have thought of this possibility and replaced the seals). Currently I’m waffling a bit on whether to rebuild the 9300 and try again or go with a Grundfos SQFlex. I’m not excited about the ~ $2500 for that (with controller, etc.), also am not excited about regular maintenance and maybe questionable reliability with the 9300. I agree with the comments of others to run the pump solar-direct. If no success check the voltage and current with the module connected. It could be a short, as I experienced. Then begs the question as to whether if rebuilt the Shurflo is worth putting back in the hole, or might better serve as a super-efficient water feature pump and spend the big bucks for a different well solution. The Grundfos I installed in a different well on the same land 16 years ago still runs flawlessly. Gary Gary Higbee Windstream Solar Oregon License 17LRT Renewable Energy Consulting Contracted with Energy Trust of Oregon and Emerald People's Utility District gary at windstreamsolar.com 541-954-3881 Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 23:54:35 -0600 From: Allan Sindelar > Mac, My experience is similar but slightly different. I have worked with the Shurflo 9300 for nearly twenty years. I have closely followed the mfgr's directions - even the temporary wrap of tape - and as far as I can recall have had maybe one failure due to water penetration at the cable gland. But I have seen a number of homeowner installs with this failure, so it's easy to not get right. I agree that a fixed, sealed pigtail would be a better approach, like a SunRotor, Grundfos or Lorentz. The 9300 has a one-year warranty as I recall. Running open discharge without float or time control, such as all day into a wildlife pond with overflow, the pumps last about 1 1/2 years before needing the diaphragm/drive kit and valve kit for a minor rebuild. If water never reaches the motor, it will last through several of these lifetimes, but usually folks don't do the service until the pump stops, and often a failed diaphragm leads to water reaching the motor. But I have seen many of these pumps go five or more years of intermittent duty needing nothing. And the pump will run at less than half speed on a 12V battery. Standard DC brush motor - speed and thus output vary directly with voltage. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 5/31/2016 1:30 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Drake, > > I'll second Kevin's suggestion that it may be the waterproofing > gland. I see this as a very weak part of this pumps design and won't > ever use that pump again because of it. The aquatec SWP-4000 is a > very similar pump. Pump manufacturers should take responsibility for > the water-proofing into their unit. Under water splices are super > easy compared to the gland/grease mess routine required with these pumps. > > As Kevin suggested, bypass the controller and put good ~ 24VDC down > there (using batteries off of your cordless tools works well for this) > These pumps will pump off 18-20V. > > Good luck > > On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Kevin Pegg > >> wrote: > > Hi Drake, > > We have a lot of these pumps in the field, operating without issue > for many years, though they are generally operating on some sort > of regular basis. But lots of customers with seasonal situations > that may have the pump idle for 10 months a year. > > I would suggest applying 12/24VDC battery power directly to the > pump bypassing controller and see if you get any action, then can > narrow down if it is a pump issue or a controller issue. Another > issue is the waterproof gland if not done properly can result in > connection issues. Have had a few of those. > > Kevin > > > *Sent:* May-31-16 8:27 AM from Drake Chamberlin > > Hello Wrenches, > > A couple years back we installed a Shurflo 9325-043-101 water > pump. It runs array direct. After installation, it worked fine. > Since then, it has not been used. The client tried to operate it > recently,and it didn't work. A red light is showing in the controller. > > How well do these systems hold up if not used? > > I haven't gone out to the site yet, but wanted to get some > background from you water pumping guys about shelf life of idle > systems. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > > /http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Jun 1 15:08:16 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:08:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gary, What I suspect may be at issue is the wire. Shurflo requires jacketed cable (10 or 12 AWG) of a particulat dimensional range. The issue is that few suppliers carry the right cable. It's a Code issue - any pump with a metal case requires an equipment bonding conductor (silly, I know) which means three conductors, which won't fit in the cable gland. Having a nonconductive plastic case, the 9300 only needs two conductors, will only fit two conductors, and no pump or electrical supply house carries two-conductor cable because nothing they sell uses it. Sort of a catch-22. Also, using unjacketed (yellow) multiconductor cable is a guaranteed way to get water into the motor. Hope this helps. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 6/1/2016 12:53 PM, Gary Higbee wrote: > Drake and Wrenches, > > Interesting timing as I experienced a failure with my 9300 a couple > weeks ago. I originally installed the pump about 17 years ago for an > off-grid cabin I had then. I put the pump in the well, tested it, then > removed it after a year or so. In total it had about 30 minutes of run > time. The pump sat around in the house for about 15 years before I > tested it in a bucket, in preparation for installing it in a new well > on a different piece of land. The test went fine though I decided to > put a new gland connector on the wire, which was a royal pain. The 10 > ga submersible wire just met the maximum width noted in the > documentation yet the hard plastic collar seemed to rub hard on the > wire jacket when assembled and screwed in. > > Down the new hole went the pump and we ran it solar-direct for > testing. To our joy up came the water. Thirty minutes later, to our > great dismay, the pump ran very slow then stopped (oh, from joy to > despair in such a short time!). Testing showed module current around > Isc for those conditions and only a couple volts, about 1 ohm with the > module disconnected. Up came the works and we connected the module > directly to the pump. No go. It seemed there may have been a little > water where the gland connected to the pump socket, or it may have > been a drip. > > I haven’t taken the pump apart yet so don’t know if it’s got water in > it (expect it does). My guess is either the new gland connection had > some problem OR the pump seals deteriorated as it sat on the shelf all > those years (argh, should have thought of this possibility and > replaced the seals). > > Currently I’m waffling a bit on whether to rebuild the 9300 and try > again or go with a Grundfos SQFlex. I’m not excited about the ~ $2500 > for that (with controller, etc.), also am not excited about regular > maintenance and maybe questionable reliability with the 9300. > > I agree with the comments of others to run the pump solar-direct. If > no success check the voltage and current with the module connected. It > could be a short, as I experienced. > > Then begs the question as to whether if rebuilt the Shurflo is worth > putting back in the hole, or might better serve as a super-efficient > water feature pump and spend the big bucks for a different well > solution. The Grundfos I installed in a different well on the same > land 16 years ago still runs flawlessly. > > Gary > > Gary Higbee > Windstream Solar > Oregon License 17LRT > Renewable Energy Consulting > Contracted with Energy Trust of Oregon and Emerald People's Utility > District > gary at windstreamsolar.com > 541-954-3881 > > > Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 23:54:35 -0600 > From: Allan Sindelar > > > Mac, > My experience is similar but slightly different. I have worked with the > Shurflo 9300 for nearly twenty years. I have closely followed the mfgr's > directions - even the temporary wrap of tape - and as far as I can > recall have had maybe one failure due to water penetration at the cable > gland. But I have seen a number of homeowner installs with this failure, > so it's easy to not get right. I agree that a fixed, sealed pigtail > would be a better approach, like a SunRotor, Grundfos or Lorentz. > > The 9300 has a one-year warranty as I recall. Running open discharge > without float or time control, such as all day into a wildlife pond with > overflow, the pumps last about 1 1/2 years before needing the > diaphragm/drive kit and valve kit for a minor rebuild. If water never > reaches the motor, it will last through several of these lifetimes, but > usually folks don't do the service until the pump stops, and often a > failed diaphragm leads to water reaching the motor. But I have seen many > of these pumps go five or more years of intermittent duty needing nothing. > > And the pump will run at less than half speed on a 12V battery. Standard > DC brush motor - speed and thus output vary directly with voltage. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > On 5/31/2016 1:30 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hi Drake, >> >> I'll second Kevin's suggestion that it may be the waterproofing >> gland. I see this as a very weak part of this pumps design and won't >> ever use that pump again because of it. The aquatec SWP-4000 is a >> very similar pump. Pump manufacturers should take responsibility for >> the water-proofing into their unit. Under water splices are super >> easy compared to the gland/grease mess routine required with these pumps. >> >> As Kevin suggested, bypass the controller and put good ~ 24VDC down >> there (using batteries off of your cordless tools works well for this) >> These pumps will pump off 18-20V. >> >> Good luck >> > >> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Kevin Pegg >> > > >> wrote: >> >> Hi Drake, >> >> We have a lot of these pumps in the field, operating without issue >> for many years, though they are generally operating on some sort >> of regular basis. But lots of customers with seasonal situations >> that may have the pump idle for 10 months a year. >> >> I would suggest applying 12/24VDC battery power directly to the >> pump bypassing controller and see if you get any action, then can >> narrow down if it is a pump issue or a controller issue. Another >> issue is the waterproof gland if not done properly can result in >> connection issues. Have had a few of those. >> >> Kevin >> >> > >> *Sent:* May-31-16 8:27 AM from Drake Chamberlin >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> A couple years back we installed a Shurflo 9325-043-101 water >> pump. It runs array direct. After installation, it worked fine. >> Since then, it has not been used. The client tried to operate it >> recently,and it didn't work. A red light is showing in the controller. >> >> How well do these systems hold up if not used? >> >> I haven't gone out to the site yet, but wanted to get some >> background from you water pumping guys about shelf life of idle >> systems. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> /Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Jun 1 15:23:25 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:23:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9cbd88250a42467e988a27d9ed626efe@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> This is the cable we use for the 9300's. Haven't had any issues as long as prepared properly. But would much prefer pigtails and heat shrink butt splicing, way faster and leak-free. https://www.anixter.com/en_ca/product-detail.PS-Copper%2BShipboard%2BCable.LSDSGU-9.html Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: June-01-16 12:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump Gary, What I suspect may be at issue is the wire. Shurflo requires jacketed cable (10 or 12 AWG) of a particulat dimensional range. The issue is that few suppliers carry the right cable. It's a Code issue - any pump with a metal case requires an equipment bonding conductor (silly, I know) which means three conductors, which won't fit in the cable gland. Having a nonconductive plastic case, the 9300 only needs two conductors, will only fit two conductors, and no pump or electrical supply house carries two-conductor cable because nothing they sell uses it. Sort of a catch-22. Also, using unjacketed (yellow) multiconductor cable is a guaranteed way to get water into the motor. Hope this helps. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 6/1/2016 12:53 PM, Gary Higbee wrote: Drake and Wrenches, Interesting timing as I experienced a failure with my 9300 a couple weeks ago. I originally installed the pump about 17 years ago for an off-grid cabin I had then. I put the pump in the well, tested it, then removed it after a year or so. In total it had about 30 minutes of run time. The pump sat around in the house for about 15 years before I tested it in a bucket, in preparation for installing it in a new well on a different piece of land. The test went fine though I decided to put a new gland connector on the wire, which was a royal pain. The 10 ga submersible wire just met the maximum width noted in the documentation yet the hard plastic collar seemed to rub hard on the wire jacket when assembled and screwed in. Down the new hole went the pump and we ran it solar-direct for testing. To our joy up came the water. Thirty minutes later, to our great dismay, the pump ran very slow then stopped (oh, from joy to despair in such a short time!). Testing showed module current around Isc for those conditions and only a couple volts, about 1 ohm with the module disconnected. Up came the works and we connected the module directly to the pump. No go. It seemed there may have been a little water where the gland connected to the pump socket, or it may have been a drip. I haven't taken the pump apart yet so don't know if it's got water in it (expect it does). My guess is either the new gland connection had some problem OR the pump seals deteriorated as it sat on the shelf all those years (argh, should have thought of this possibility and replaced the seals). Currently I'm waffling a bit on whether to rebuild the 9300 and try again or go with a Grundfos SQFlex. I'm not excited about the ~ $2500 for that (with controller, etc.), also am not excited about regular maintenance and maybe questionable reliability with the 9300. I agree with the comments of others to run the pump solar-direct. If no success check the voltage and current with the module connected. It could be a short, as I experienced. Then begs the question as to whether if rebuilt the Shurflo is worth putting back in the hole, or might better serve as a super-efficient water feature pump and spend the big bucks for a different well solution. The Grundfos I installed in a different well on the same land 16 years ago still runs flawlessly. Gary Gary Higbee Windstream Solar Oregon License 17LRT Renewable Energy Consulting Contracted with Energy Trust of Oregon and Emerald People's Utility District gary at windstreamsolar.com 541-954-3881 Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 23:54:35 -0600 From: Allan Sindelar > Mac, My experience is similar but slightly different. I have worked with the Shurflo 9300 for nearly twenty years. I have closely followed the mfgr's directions - even the temporary wrap of tape - and as far as I can recall have had maybe one failure due to water penetration at the cable gland. But I have seen a number of homeowner installs with this failure, so it's easy to not get right. I agree that a fixed, sealed pigtail would be a better approach, like a SunRotor, Grundfos or Lorentz. The 9300 has a one-year warranty as I recall. Running open discharge without float or time control, such as all day into a wildlife pond with overflow, the pumps last about 1 1/2 years before needing the diaphragm/drive kit and valve kit for a minor rebuild. If water never reaches the motor, it will last through several of these lifetimes, but usually folks don't do the service until the pump stops, and often a failed diaphragm leads to water reaching the motor. But I have seen many of these pumps go five or more years of intermittent duty needing nothing. And the pump will run at less than half speed on a 12V battery. Standard DC brush motor - speed and thus output vary directly with voltage. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 5/31/2016 1:30 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Drake, I'll second Kevin's suggestion that it may be the waterproofing gland. I see this as a very weak part of this pumps design and won't ever use that pump again because of it. The aquatec SWP-4000 is a very similar pump. Pump manufacturers should take responsibility for the water-proofing into their unit. Under water splices are super easy compared to the gland/grease mess routine required with these pumps. As Kevin suggested, bypass the controller and put good ~ 24VDC down there (using batteries off of your cordless tools works well for this) These pumps will pump off 18-20V. Good luck On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: Hi Drake, We have a lot of these pumps in the field, operating without issue for many years, though they are generally operating on some sort of regular basis. But lots of customers with seasonal situations that may have the pump idle for 10 months a year. I would suggest applying 12/24VDC battery power directly to the pump bypassing controller and see if you get any action, then can narrow down if it is a pump issue or a controller issue. Another issue is the waterproof gland if not done properly can result in connection issues. Have had a few of those. Kevin *Sent:* May-31-16 8:27 AM from Drake Chamberlin Hello Wrenches, A couple years back we installed a Shurflo 9325-043-101 water pump. It runs array direct. After installation, it worked fine. Since then, it has not been used. The client tried to operate it recently,and it didn't work. A red light is showing in the controller. How well do these systems hold up if not used? I haven't gone out to the site yet, but wanted to get some background from you water pumping guys about shelf life of idle systems. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin /Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 /http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at westcoastsustainables.com Wed Jun 1 16:04:58 2016 From: jason at westcoastsustainables.com (Jason Andrade) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:04:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 9, Issue 170 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010501d1bc40$e6b86cb0$b4294610$@westcoastsustainables.com> I have had Powerfab build custom enclosures for me in the past but I really like the HDPE enclosures from radiantsolartech.com they are safe and constructed well. I prefer stacked battery racks myself and am building a custom one now for my personal off grid system, https://www.facebook.com/113295778708585/photos/pcb.1045462858825201/1045461 465492007/?type=3 This will be a completely enclosed and vented cabinet with HDPE trays for acid containment. My question is has the inspector mentioned grounding it and what size EGC will you be using? Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell Please follow the links below for great content! >> On May 31, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> We have a local inspector who is asking us to use metal battery boxes instead of plastic. >> >> Ideally something that is UL-listed if that even exists, but we were able to push back on that. >> >> Does anyone have any recommendations for a metal battery box that will hold 8 or 16 L16 FLA batteries? >> >> Thanks, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> Project Engineer >> >> Taitem Engineering, PC >> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> www.taitem.com From taharvey at heliocentric.org Wed Jun 1 18:19:22 2016 From: taharvey at heliocentric.org (Troy) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 15:19:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Feed-in tariffs and internal offsets Message-ID: <0208B566-D573-44ED-8D4B-DC2E459A8D30@heliocentric.org> The utility feed-in meters right off the inverter, then separately demand meter off of the load-side meter. Which means I need to load shift the solar to offset the building loads just shy of net zero, then export the excess on the feed-in meter (because you can’t net meter). I could set it up with a bunch of small inverters and subarrays, and use contactors to switch A/B the inverters one at a time between the demand side and export side. But I thought there must be product solutions for this already. Any thoughts? > On May 30, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Mac Lewis > wrote: > > Hi Troy, > > Does this little utility have a Time of Use rate structure? How often do they true up (pay the customer for their extra power)? > > There are various markets that this makes sense, Germany, Hawaii etc. They call this type of system a self-consumption system. It does require energy storage/management. There are quite a few companies out there that are doing this now, Outback, Schneider Electric, Sonnen etc. The pricing that you are stating $0.08 retail, will make this extremely difficult (impossible) to offer any type of payback for a system like this. However, you can offer excellent backup power and a "future-proof" system ready for almost any type of rate structure. Some of these systems can also intelligently reduce demand charges by exporting power out of the battery bank during high energy use. > > What makes the most sense will really depend on the rate structure. If the utility says that they will pay whole sale for overproduction, ask them how often they check the meter. Do they net-meter? When is the check cut for excess energy production? It's common for a utility to only pay whole-sale for over-production, but allow you to off-set retail electricity rates. We have a utility that used to pay off any excess in January. This was a rotten deal for solar customers because they would get paid whole sale for what they over produced in the summer in the dark days of winter would be buying retail. They have changed this policy to have a continuous rollover option. > > Good Luck > > > On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Troy > wrote: > I am dealing with a small utility that only provides a small feed-in tariff (basically wholesale). Customer wouldn’t have much value to install PV when they sell in at 5 cents, and buy back at 8 cents. > > However, if we load shifted the PV to provide an internal offset on the consumption meter (but staying clear of exporting), and move any excess to the tariff meter we could make the PV more valuable by offsetting the 8 cent power first, rather than just producing 5 cent power all the time. > > Has anyone done this? Are there legal hurdles? Any reason one can be legally stopped from offsetting their own power? > > Thanks, > > Troy > Heliocentric > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Thanks, Troy Harvey --------------------- Principal Engineer Heliocentric 801-453-9434 taharvey at heliocentric.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Jun 2 13:00:20 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 13:00:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Battery Box Message-ID: Hi all, Thanks for the responses. The inspector just preferred to see a metal box and something UL listed to be a FLA battery enclosure. After some more discussion with him, it turns out he is okay with us continuing to use the plastic ones. He will not let us make out own box though. If we were to go with metal, I would plan to use an equipment ground sized for the 175A breaker the is on the battery cables... Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:04 PM, Jason Andrade < jason at westcoastsustainables.com> wrote: > I have had Powerfab build custom enclosures for me in the past but I really > like the HDPE enclosures from radiantsolartech.com they are safe and > constructed well. I prefer stacked battery racks myself and am building a > custom one now for my personal off grid system, > > https://www.facebook.com/113295778708585/photos/pcb.1045462858825201/1045461 > 465492007/?type=3 > This will be a completely enclosed and vented cabinet with HDPE trays for > acid containment. > My question is has the inspector mentioned grounding it and what size EGC > will you be using? > > > > Jason Andrade > C-46# 974647 > (530) 410-4745 Cell > Please follow the links > below for great content! > > >> On May 31, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> > >> Hi All, > >> > >> We have a local inspector who is asking us to use metal battery boxes > instead of plastic. > >> > >> Ideally something that is UL-listed if that even exists, but we were > able > to push back on that. > >> > >> Does anyone have any recommendations for a metal battery box that will > hold 8 or 16 L16 FLA batteries? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Dave > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Dave Tedeyan > >> Project Engineer > >> > >> Taitem Engineering, PC > >> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > >> www.taitem.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 16:58:23 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 15:58:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Safety equipment/training Message-ID: <707FC01C-315F-4011-AD84-135B5A422295@gmail.com> Hello, My electrical/solar training program has received an equipment grant and along with new equipment I want to invest in safety. We have harness and different lanyard/tie points, arc flash suits, insulated tools, eye and ear protection, lock out tag out gear but what else in your eyes should a training program be using in class to teach safety? The students have OSHA 10 and MSHA training so I am looking at jobsite safety not so much theory. Metal roofs can pose a safety challenge and we have a metal roof on one training roof. Battery safety.... Thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPad From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 15:28:51 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 15:28:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] closets and working space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ha thanks. I figured there was something about that situation that wasn't right. The main panel is already located there. Maybe I will just add a partition into the closet (it's probably 8' wide) so that half can be designated 'coat closet' and the other half designated 'utility closet'? On Tuesday, May 31, 2016, August Goers wrote: > Hi Adam, > > > > Check out “NEC 240.24(D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. > Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily > ignitable material, such as in clothes closets.” > > > > -August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] > *On Behalf Of *AE Solar > *Sent:* Monday, May 30, 2016 5:08 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] closets and working space > > > > Hey Wrenches, > > We'd like to put a combo panel in a coat closet (its shallow and wide) > right next to the existing panel. With the doors open (they are pocket > doors) it is fine with working space requirements. I know the AHJ will have > the ultimate say and am checkin in with them as well but wondering if > anyone has thoughts on why that could be a bad idea? > > Thanks > > Adam > > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 21:20:25 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 18:20:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump In-Reply-To: <9cbd88250a42467e988a27d9ed626efe@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <9cbd88250a42467e988a27d9ed626efe@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <1A29E993-2249-4C47-8D8D-9E769B2D6B27@gmail.com> Hi all When I need to use a small DC pump, I long ago switched to Sun pumps from the 9300, and haven't looked back. Great folks to work with, great tech help, and lots of very cool pumps besides their submersibles, greater reliability, easier rebuilds( no leaks), any choice of wire, and more flow options. As to the question of SQ FLEX vs DC submersible, I guess my criteria are sort of: amount of pumping per year and accessibility. If they pump a lot then it'll be rebuilds every 1-2 years, and won't take long to make it cheaper to get the Flex, and if it's a really hard place to get to or long wire run etc again cost vs reliability points to flex. Jay Peltz power. > On Jun 1, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > This is the cable we use for the 9300's. Haven't had any issues as long as prepared properly. But would much prefer pigtails and heat shrink butt splicing, way faster and leak-free. > > https://www.anixter.com/en_ca/product-detail.PS-Copper%2BShipboard%2BCable.LSDSGU-9.html > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > Sent: June-01-16 12:08 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump > > Gary, > What I suspect may be at issue is the wire. Shurflo requires jacketed cable (10 or 12 AWG) of a particulat dimensional range. The issue is that few suppliers carry the right cable. It's a Code issue - any pump with a metal case requires an equipment bonding conductor (silly, I know) which means three conductors, which won't fit in the cable gland. Having a nonconductive plastic case, the 9300 only needs two conductors, will only fit two conductors, and no pump or electrical supply house carries two-conductor cable because nothing they sell uses it. Sort of a catch-22. > > Also, using unjacketed (yellow) multiconductor cable is a guaranteed way to get water into the motor. > > Hope this helps. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jun 3 11:07:05 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 08:07:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof In-Reply-To: References: <7075693d4865b6fa646c24824892b3b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <85e99b398ecaef349f7095bcb5dc3f15@mail.gmail.com> Dana, We still aren’t using the portable lifts. I’ve spoken with a few people from other companies who have the lifts and they said that most of the time they just sit in the warehouse. Certainly they are helpful for particularly tough jobs. Our crews are using glass suction cups to hoist panels up with ropes or sometimes sling them over their shoulders. We have several of these: http://www.amazon.com/Woods-Powr-Grip-Vacuum-Metal-Handle/dp/B000KWTXZ6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage We learned this trick from one of our installers who previously worked installing big glass windows on high rises. They provide a very convenient and sturdy handle to hold modules. We also have one of the ladder hoists similar to the one shown in Homepower: http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/pv-module-lift -August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dana Brandt *Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2016 3:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof Hi Wrenches, I'm curious if anyone has updates to this thread 3 years later. What are people using to lift modules to the roof? I've been looking at ladder hoists online and wondering how well they'd work in practice. Any experience or advice? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:44 AM, August Goers wrote: Hi Wrenches, I imagine that all of us working in rooftop PV have put some good hard thought on the best way to get the modules up to the roof. There are various lifts on the market, you can hoist them with ropes manually, or walk them up a ladder (sling them over your back). I find that the majority of our competition in the Bay Area walks panels up the ladder for residential projects. What is your feeling about OSHA compliance of doing this? Best, August 415.559.1525 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Jun 3 11:24:31 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 08:24:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPT over amp In-Reply-To: <1A29E993-2249-4C47-8D8D-9E769B2D6B27@gmail.com> References: <9cbd88250a42467e988a27d9ed626efe@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <1A29E993-2249-4C47-8D8D-9E769B2D6B27@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2a1dd70e-fd05-7e29-b2c5-0506dd45ccff@psln.com> Hey Folks, I'm afraid getting through to SMA service has gone the path of many others....how long can you wait and wait and..... My question: the SB7000TL-US-22 is rated for up to 18 amps per MPPT input. What happens at 18.4 amps? Does it just clip some power and continue operating accepting the full rating of 18 amps? Is there a manual reset necessary? Thanks, Bill -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Fri Jun 3 11:47:25 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 11:47:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPT over amp In-Reply-To: <2a1dd70e-fd05-7e29-b2c5-0506dd45ccff@psln.com> References: <9cbd88250a42467e988a27d9ed626efe@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <1A29E993-2249-4C47-8D8D-9E769B2D6B27@gmail.com> <2a1dd70e-fd05-7e29-b2c5-0506dd45ccff@psln.com> Message-ID: <9317fbf7f585a08e278d447761e715be.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Bill, To answer your first question, you can wait 45 minutes on hold before SMA hangs up on you. If you are waiting for a call back, good luck. I have asked your MPPT question of SMA and they told me there was some tolerance if we went over mppt amp rating (two strings pushes it in many instances). They have also confirmed that we can put 100% of inverter POWER rating on a single MPPT without any clipping (leaving the other MPPT empty). I did not get into the MPPT ampacity clipping question as we have not exceeded that value by anything significant (and I would say 0.4 A is not significant). We have installed multiple projects that are just over the individual MPPT amp rating without needing to change any function of the inverter. The SMA inverters still operate well even if their technical support does not. My only complaint is sporadic, non-reproducible arc-fault events. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Fri, June 3, 2016 11:24 am, frenergy wrote: > Hey Folks, > > > I'm afraid getting through to SMA service has gone the path > of many others....how long can you wait and wait and..... My question: the > SB7000TL-US-22 is rated for up to 18 amps per MPPT input. What > happens at 18.4 amps? Does it just clip some power and continue operating > accepting the full rating of 18 amps? Is there a manual reset necessary? > > Thanks, > > > Bill > > > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From mikek at spiritsolar.net Sun Jun 5 16:55:12 2016 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 16:55:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Compressor motor/SW+5548 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c901d1bf6c$8dddedc0$a999c940$@net> Air compressors have a high surge current and the SW5548 doesn't handle surges that well. I'm surprised you even got the compressor to run. Adding more capacitance for the startup might help. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Phone: 413 883-3144 Spirit Solar www.SpiritSolar.net -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Rodriguez [mailto:allsolarjeremy at msn.com] Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 12:46 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Compressor motor/SW+5548 Hello I've got an SW+5548 that will barley start my air compressor. Once it does run it shows 17 Amps on the inverters loads meter. During start up it reads 60+ amps. Do you think better capacitors would help the situation? BTW I've never ran the compressor off grid prior. I even tried #8 from the Breaker to the pressure switch, about 9ft, with no benefit. The compressor will only start with the tank completely empty. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From wirewiz at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 07:30:43 2016 From: wirewiz at gmail.com (wirewiz at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 07:30:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof In-Reply-To: <85e99b398ecaef349f7095bcb5dc3f15@mail.gmail.com> References: <7075693d4865b6fa646c24824892b3b1@mail.gmail.com> <85e99b398ecaef349f7095bcb5dc3f15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87E51956-FA3D-410D-AEEE-3C51EF974D17@gmail.com> Dana and August, I have used a patent pending prototype of a solar module lifting system that I like very much, complies with OSHA and solves all the lifting issues. I know the founder and he is looking for some feedback from installers to gain some industry traction while talking to potential investors. Attached is a photo but more detailed info can be found at:. https://www.facebook.com/solargoat Larry Liesner Ross Solar Group 203-644-2404 On Jun 3, 2016, at 11:07 AM, August Goers wrote: > Dana, > > We still aren’t using the portable lifts. I’ve spoken with a few people from other companies who have the lifts and they said that most of the time they just sit in the warehouse. Certainly they are helpful for particularly tough jobs. > > Our crews are using glass suction cups to hoist panels up with ropes or sometimes sling them over their shoulders. We have several of these: > > http://www.amazon.com/Woods-Powr-Grip-Vacuum-Metal-Handle/dp/B000KWTXZ6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage > > We learned this trick from one of our installers who previously worked installing big glass windows on high rises. They provide a very convenient and sturdy handle to hold modules. > > We also have one of the ladder hoists similar to the one shown in Homepower: > > http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/pv-module-lift > > > -August > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Brandt > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 3:26 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof > > Hi Wrenches, > > I'm curious if anyone has updates to this thread 3 years later. What are people using to lift modules to the roof? > > I've been looking at ladder hoists online and wondering how well they'd work in practice. Any experience or advice? > > Thanks, > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:44 AM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I imagine that all of us working in rooftop PV have put some good hard thought on the best way to get the modules up to the roof. There are various lifts on the market, you can hoist them with ropes manually, or walk them up a ladder (sling them over your back). I find that the majority of our competition in the Bay Area walks panels up the ladder for residential projects. What is your feeling about OSHA compliance of doing this? > > Best, > > > August > 415.559.1525 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SolarGoat Photo.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 64722 bytes Desc: not available URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Mon Jun 6 11:55:47 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:55:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with SolarEdge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, Apparently SolarEdge is no longer officially supporting or warranting AC Coupling - maybe because they now have the StorEdge option (has anyone actually seen one for sale and/or operating). In any case, since I have sold prior to missing that memo and am now in the position of installing a battery backup system using an SE5000US and a Schneider XW5548, I am needing to figure the details out without any support from either Schneider or SolarEdge (SolarEdge tech support referred me to Outback tech support saying Outback has recommendations for AC coupling with SE, but the techs I spoke with at Outback are vague at best when talking about AC coupling with any inverter and even less forthcoming when talking about SE). Does anyone know whether SE inverters still respond to frequency shift and what those parameters are? I will install a failsafe relay to disconnect the SE inverter upon high battery voltage, but it would be useful to know what, if at all, the set points for power limiting are in the SE inverter. Any info or leads would be appreciated. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Mon Jun 6 12:21:04 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 09:21:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with SolarEdge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, I don’t know if pdf attachments will show up on this list, but I am attaching the OutBack tech note on AC-Coupling with SolarEdge If the attachment doesn’t go through, email me off-list. Brian AEE Solar bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 8:56 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with SolarEdge Hi all, Apparently SolarEdge is no longer officially supporting or warranting AC Coupling - maybe because they now have the StorEdge option (has anyone actually seen one for sale and/or operating). In any case, since I have sold prior to missing that memo and am now in the position of installing a battery backup system using an SE5000US and a Schneider XW5548, I am needing to figure the details out without any support from either Schneider or SolarEdge (SolarEdge tech support referred me to Outback tech support saying Outback has recommendations for AC coupling with SE, but the techs I spoke with at Outback are vague at best when talking about AC coupling with any inverter and even less forthcoming when talking about SE). Does anyone know whether SE inverters still respond to frequency shift and what those parameters are? I will install a failsafe relay to disconnect the SE inverter upon high battery voltage, but it would be useful to know what, if at all, the set points for power limiting are in the SE inverter. Any info or leads would be appreciated. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OutBack_SolarEdge_ac_coupling_tech_note_7.15.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 315294 bytes Desc: not available URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Mon Jun 6 14:50:01 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 14:50:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with SolarEdge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian, Thanks, it came through perfectly! Am I correct to assume that the SE inverter will only respond to a PRI Port input signal to ramp output up and down and not a frequency shift? I'll have to check if there is someway to use that function with the XW. When I spoke with SolarEdge support, they said they are not supporting this function anymore. Do you know if that means SE won't supply technical support or that their inverters don't have that capability any more? Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 > Hi Howie, > > > > I don’t know if pdf attachments will show up on this list, but I am attaching the OutBack tech note on AC-Coupling with SolarEdge > > > > If the attachment doesn’t go through, email me off-list. > > > > Brian > > AEE Solar > > bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 8:56 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with SolarEdge > > > > Hi all, > Apparently SolarEdge is no longer officially supporting or warranting AC Coupling - maybe because they now have the StorEdge option (has anyone actually seen one for sale and/or operating). In any case, since I have sold prior to missing that memo and am now in the position of installing a battery backup system using an SE5000US and a Schneider XW5548, I am needing to figure the details out without any support from either Schneider or SolarEdge (SolarEdge tech support referred me to Outback tech support saying Outback has recommendations for AC coupling with SE, but the techs I spoke with at Outback are vague at best when talking about AC coupling with any inverter and even less forthcoming when talking about SE). > > Does anyone know whether SE inverters still respond to frequency shift and what those parameters are? I will install a failsafe relay to disconnect the SE inverter upon high battery voltage, but it would be useful to know what, if at all, the set points for power limiting are in the SE inverter. Any info or leads would be appreciated. > Thanks, > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Jun 6 16:22:26 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 14:22:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof In-Reply-To: References: <7075693d4865b6fa646c24824892b3b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm still using the same mod lift for the past 6-8 years, with very minor modifications. I used the design that was in HomePower years ago. I switched out strut for pieces of our module rack/rail to make it lighter. Keep in mind that specific design only works with a fiberglass ladder with a particular design top on it. We have an office in a neighbor city that built one a bit different that works on top of a typical aluminum ladder. >From hoist set-up, mods up, to packed up, i'd challenge anyone with one of the mechanical module lifts to keep up on a two story roof install. One guy can have ours set up in under 5min and you can have mods on the roof in under a minute each, round trip (walking from the van/trailer to the lift with a module, hoisting it, lowering the lift and back to get another module). Its safe, fast and KISS. No doubt that one of the mechanical ones would be nice for much larger jobs. And i like that some have articulating sections that can flatten out to run parallel with some roofs. But i've seen how much room they take up. You need an empty van or trailer just to move the pieces themselves. *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I'm curious if anyone has updates to this thread 3 years later. What are > people using to lift modules to the roof? > > I've been looking at ladder hoists online and wondering how well they'd > work in practice. Any experience or advice? > > Thanks, > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:44 AM, August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I imagine that all of us working in rooftop PV have put some good hard >> thought on the best way to get the modules up to the roof. There are >> various lifts on the market, you can hoist them with ropes manually, or >> walk them up a ladder (sling them over your back). I find that the majority >> of our competition in the Bay Area walks panels up the ladder for >> residential projects. What is your feeling about OSHA compliance of doing >> this? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> >> >> August >> >> 415.559.1525 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philforest at me.com Mon Jun 6 17:28:45 2016 From: philforest at me.com (Phil Forest) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 17:28:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof In-Reply-To: References: <7075693d4865b6fa646c24824892b3b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <550779C8-91FE-48C8-81B8-8F842F8A4D34@me.com> Benn, We have many different methods to get panels up to a roof, depending on the situation. I agree, mechanical lifts take a lot of time and resources to use, for typical residential installs. Getting panels up to a residential roof quickly, easily and safely is my biggest roof install challenge. Thanks for sharing your positive appraisal of that mod lift from Homepower. I almost made one. I've only heard good things about it. However, I went a different route, and made a backpack to carry modules up a ladder, any ladder, instead. When the backpacker gets to the eave of the roof, someone else that's on the roof removes it from the backpack. The primary benefits are that it fits in a van easily, 1 minute set up, the backpacker has two hands free to climb the ladder, and after the module is removed from the pack at the roof eave, the backpacker has the option to continue onto the roof to assist in the module installation if needed (good when it's only a 2 man crew and a steep roof). No problems with wind, yet, but we only install mods in calm or light winds. See "solar pack 100" thread that I posted, for past discussion. I made a short video of it in use, but it's too much data to post here, let me know off thread and I can send it to you, if interested. But it sounds like you have a good method already. Phil Forest > On Jun 6, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > I'm still using the same mod lift for the past 6-8 years, with very minor modifications. I used the design that was in HomePower years ago. I switched out strut for pieces of our module rack/rail to make it lighter. > Keep in mind that specific design only works with a fiberglass ladder with a particular design top on it. We have an office in a neighbor city that built one a bit different that works on top of a typical aluminum ladder. > > From hoist set-up, mods up, to packed up, i'd challenge anyone with one of the mechanical module lifts to keep up on a two story roof install. One guy can have ours set up in under 5min and you can have mods on the roof in under a minute each, round trip (walking from the van/trailer to the lift with a module, hoisting it, lowering the lift and back to get another module). Its safe, fast and KISS. > > No doubt that one of the mechanical ones would be nice for much larger jobs. And i like that some have articulating sections that can flatten out to run parallel with some roofs. But i've seen how much room they take up. You need an empty van or trailer just to move the pieces themselves. > > Benn Kilburn > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > >> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I'm curious if anyone has updates to this thread 3 years later. What are people using to lift modules to the roof? >> >> I've been looking at ladder hoists online and wondering how well they'd work in practice. Any experience or advice? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dana >> >> Dana Brandt >> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC >> www.ecotechenergy.com >> dana at ecotechenergy.com >> 360.318.7646 >> >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:44 AM, August Goers wrote: >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> >>> >>> I imagine that all of us working in rooftop PV have put some good hard thought on the best way to get the modules up to the roof. There are various lifts on the market, you can hoist them with ropes manually, or walk them up a ladder (sling them over your back). I find that the majority of our competition in the Bay Area walks panels up the ladder for residential projects. What is your feeling about OSHA compliance of doing this? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> 415.559.1525 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Options & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Mon Jun 6 18:15:01 2016 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 15:15:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Message-ID: Wrenches, Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We¹ve got a new project that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)Š Is there a fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1][31].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 6 18:44:41 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 15:44:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chad, We’ve occasionally installed onto steel trusses with either self drilling screws (no pilot required) or thread forming screws (pilot hole required). See attached sample spec sheets. I suppose you could install a standard tile hook type product with the types of fasters I listed above. Or, hire a roofer to waterproof your stanchions and reinstall the removed tiles. More and more, we are moving towards the latter because we’ve bumped into issues with degrading underlayment (felt paper) under tile roofs. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chad Waits *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 3:15 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Wrenches, Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We’ve got a new project that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)… Is there a fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner – Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Elco_2014_catalog - TapFlex.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 159827 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DrilFlex EAF888 Spec III_3-4-14.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 139663 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Mon Jun 6 19:21:46 2016 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 16:21:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof In-Reply-To: References: <7075693d4865b6fa646c24824892b3b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <671304.98725.bm@smtp120.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Jun 6 19:36:21 2016 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 19:36:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses References: Message-ID: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> Chad I second August. We have had great success with self tapping screws. Put some butyl on the L-foot and set it in. thx peter ----- Original Message ----- From: August Goers To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Hi Chad, We’ve occasionally installed onto steel trusses with either self drilling screws (no pilot required) or thread forming screws (pilot hole required). See attached sample spec sheets. I suppose you could install a standard tile hook type product with the types of fasters I listed above. Or, hire a roofer to waterproof your stanchions and reinstall the removed tiles. More and more, we are moving towards the latter because we’ve bumped into issues with degrading underlayment (felt paper) under tile roofs. Best, August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chad Waits Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 3:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Wrenches, Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We’ve got a new project that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)… Is there a fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner – Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Mon Jun 6 19:03:35 2016 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 23:03:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Chad E-Jot Makes a fastener for steel that's thread cutting (must be pre drilled) It also has a neoprene washer and stainless hardware. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Real-logo-X-195] E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email - You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don't lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off... It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chad Waits Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 5:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Wrenches, Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We've got a new project that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)... Is there a fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner - Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer [cid:image003.png at 01D1C01D.BB63CEC0] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 17364 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 21:13:54 2016 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 15:13:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses In-Reply-To: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> References: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> Message-ID: Aloha Chad, We have had some success with product in the past. This one may not fit the right application, but i believe they have others as well. http://www.ejot-usa.com/products/solar-fastening-systems/for-exposed-fastener-metal-roofs/jz3-for-steel-substructures [image: Inline image 1] On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Peter Giroux wrote: > Chad > > I second August. We have had great success with self tapping screws. Put > some butyl on the L-foot and set it in. > > thx > peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* August Goers > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 6:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses > > Hi Chad, > > > > We’ve occasionally installed onto steel trusses with either self drilling > screws (no pilot required) or thread forming screws (pilot hole required). > See attached sample spec sheets. > > > > I suppose you could install a standard tile hook type product with the > types of fasters I listed above. Or, hire a roofer to waterproof your > stanchions and reinstall the removed tiles. More and more, we are moving > towards the latter because we’ve bumped into issues with degrading > underlayment (felt paper) under tile roofs. > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chad Waits > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 3:15 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses > > > > Wrenches, > > > > Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) > to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We’ve got a new project > that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the > attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)… Is there a > fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? > > > > Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chad Waits > > President/Owner – Net Zero Solar > > 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > > Office: 520-207-4053 > > Cell: 520-270-4873 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 118246 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Mon Jun 6 17:28:13 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 17:28:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment Message-ID: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> Hello, I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian Solar panels, which I've never had a high opinion of, installed by others. I've discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their self "Riso" (that's the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. That aside, what's just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I've never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren't crimped and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, although that doesn't seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels are wet. The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of "clamshell" to provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? There's always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don't want anything permanent surrounding the connectors. Has anyone ever seen what I'm describing in a marine environment? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jun 6 18:20:06 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 15:20:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <255397410004004604c2d8112835e42e@mail.gmail.com> Chad: EJOT JZ3: http://www.ejot-usa.com/products/solar-fastening-systems/for-exposed-fastener-metal-roofs/jz3-for-steel-substructures Worked great for us on a steel over steel barn. One problem we had is the trusses were pre-drilled with too-large holes right where we wanted to fasten. We carefully displaced the attachments slightly to miss the existing holes. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chad Waits *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 3:15 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Wrenches, Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We’ve got a new project that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)… Is there a fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner – Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 23:05:49 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 17:05:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses In-Reply-To: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> References: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> Message-ID: Wrenches We use tek screws, get them through fastenall even through plywood into the steel. After your done in the attic to verify that you hit just to be safe. We have done pull out tests with great results. Your application may need leaded flashing and standoff's. Jerry On Jun 6, 2016 1:36 PM, "Peter Giroux" wrote: > Chad > > I second August. We have had great success with self tapping screws. Put > some butyl on the L-foot and set it in. > > thx > peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* August Goers > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 6:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses > > Hi Chad, > > > > We’ve occasionally installed onto steel trusses with either self drilling > screws (no pilot required) or thread forming screws (pilot hole required). > See attached sample spec sheets. > > > > I suppose you could install a standard tile hook type product with the > types of fasters I listed above. Or, hire a roofer to waterproof your > stanchions and reinstall the removed tiles. More and more, we are moving > towards the latter because we’ve bumped into issues with degrading > underlayment (felt paper) under tile roofs. > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chad Waits > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 3:15 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses > > > > Wrenches, > > > > Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) > to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We’ve got a new project > that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the > attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)… Is there a > fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? > > > > Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chad Waits > > President/Owner – Net Zero Solar > > 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > > Office: 520-207-4053 > > Cell: 520-270-4873 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 23:14:48 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 20:14:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <1E4CF288-614B-4053-8CC6-FC257D67857A@gmail.com> Hi Kirk, the connectors if done correctly are water tight. There are few thoughts as to issues. wrong sized gland nut incorrectly tightened if double jacketed wire, the outer layer could have come lose allowing water in. are they real MC-4? debris during installation allowing damaged O rings Can’t think of much else. but way to many of them out there for it to be a OEM problem. jay peltz power > On Jun 6, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian Solar panels, which I’ve never had a high opinion of, installed by others. > I’ve discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their self “Riso” (that’s the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. > That aside, what’s just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I’ve never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren’t crimped and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, although that doesn’t seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels are wet. > The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of “clamshell” to provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? There’s always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don’t want anything permanent surrounding the connectors. > Has anyone ever seen what I’m describing in a marine environment? > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 04:59:07 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 04:59:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <1E4CF288-614B-4053-8CC6-FC257D67857A@gmail.com> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> <1E4CF288-614B-4053-8CC6-FC257D67857A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F3F92E9-9596-46B4-9857-3D42F1C47F5B@gmail.com> A product I have used for years is called lexel It's paintable scrubbable and it's got strong adhesive in it you can put on a wet surface it will seal ! I have it on some antenna connections that have been there for better than 25 years and it is still there doing the job I wouldn't hesitate to put A dab around the glands on the ends where the wire comes out For the center connections where they join I would probably wrap it in electrical tape to cover the seam and then put this over the tape I wouldn't want to bet that in six months or five years or longer if you don't have that taped over that you're going to get the stuff to let you open those without cutting it off If sealing is the problem this will seal it, no if's and's or buts about it ! Later, Bob Ellison > On Jun 6, 2016, at 11:14 PM, jay wrote: > > Hi Kirk, > the connectors if done correctly are water tight. > There are few thoughts as to issues. > > wrong sized gland nut > incorrectly tightened > if double jacketed wire, the outer layer could have come lose allowing water in. > are they real MC-4? > > debris during installation allowing damaged O rings > > Can’t think of much else. but way to many of them out there for it to be a OEM problem. > > jay > peltz power >> On Jun 6, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian Solar panels, which I’ve never had a high opinion of, installed by others. >> I’ve discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their self “Riso” (that’s the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. >> That aside, what’s just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I’ve never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren’t crimped and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, although that doesn’t seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels are wet. >> The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of “clamshell” to provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? There’s always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don’t want anything permanent surrounding the connectors. >> Has anyone ever seen what I’m describing in a marine environment? >> >> Kirk Herander >> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >> Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 >> www.vermontsolarnow.com >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant >> VT RE Incentive Program Partner >> 802.863.1202 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Tue Jun 7 07:51:53 2016 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 04:51:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Message-ID: Thanks for the input gentlemen (and ladies if applicable). Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Tom Duffy Reply-To: RE-wrenches Date: Monday, June 6, 2016 at 4:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Hey Chad E-Jot Makes a fastener for steel that¹s thread cutting (must be pre drilled) It also has a neoprene washer and stainless hardware. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email ­ You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don¹t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free:888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned offŠ It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chad Waits Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 5:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Wrenches, Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We¹ve got a new project that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)Š Is there a fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 17364 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1][34].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 7 08:17:47 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 08:17:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses In-Reply-To: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> References: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> Message-ID: While on the subject, anyone have a good source of 2" wide Butyl double sided tape? Our local roofing suppliers only have 1". On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 7:36 PM, Peter Giroux wrote: > Chad > > I second August. We have had great success with self tapping screws. Put > some butyl on the L-foot and set it in. > > thx > peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* August Goers > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 6:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses > > Hi Chad, > > > > We’ve occasionally installed onto steel trusses with either self drilling > screws (no pilot required) or thread forming screws (pilot hole required). > See attached sample spec sheets. > > > > I suppose you could install a standard tile hook type product with the > types of fasters I listed above. Or, hire a roofer to waterproof your > stanchions and reinstall the removed tiles. More and more, we are moving > towards the latter because we’ve bumped into issues with degrading > underlayment (felt paper) under tile roofs. > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chad Waits > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 3:15 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses > > > > Wrenches, > > > > Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) > to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We’ve got a new project > that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the > attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)… Is there a > fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? > > > > Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chad Waits > > President/Owner – Net Zero Solar > > 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > > Office: 520-207-4053 > > Cell: 520-270-4873 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Jun 7 09:10:24 2016 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 07:10:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment Message-ID: Hello, Kirk~ Shoals makes a solar connector "clamshell" that might work for you. It's intended to force an unlocking tool requirement atop old style MC3 connectors which otherwise do not lock. So...maybe it won't be big enough to surround the bigger MC4 type connectors. Some sealant might be wanted inside the clamshell. Here's the factory link: http://shoals.com/products/mc3-locking-clamshells/ ...and if you need only a small quantity of these, google for shoals clamshell & you'll find resellers. The old MC3's with their rubbery gaskets may be better in a corrosive environment, just a thought...so, Kirk, if you still have MC3 tooling plus plenty of time... The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Kirk Herander > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 17:28:13 -0400 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine > environment > > Hello, > > > > I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian > Solar panels, which I’ve never had a high opinion of, installed by others. > > I’ve discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation > resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning > condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a > garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their > self “Riso” (that’s the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. > > That aside, what’s just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module > interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I’ve > never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren’t crimped > and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, > although that doesn’t seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these > dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels > are wet. > > The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the > market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of “clamshell” to > provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? > There’s always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don’t want anything > permanent surrounding the connectors. > > Has anyone ever seen what I’m describing in a marine environment? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 09:23:09 2016 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 09:23:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment Message-ID: Kirk, Double check those connectors very closely. On our other projects, Canadian solar doesn't use MC4 connectors - they use PV2 which we found does not mate well with MC4. Steven Lawrence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Jun 7 08:13:00 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 08:13:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <20160607121304.7D08F10095@che.dreamhost.com> How about squirting some silicone dielectric grease into the contacts before mating and wrapping the connection with the sticky black tape used on coaxial cable for outdoor antenna work. I don't have a name handy here on my phone, sorry. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: "Kirk Herander" Sent: ‎6/‎6/‎2016 17:28 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment Hello, I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian Solar panels, which I've never had a high opinion of, installed by others. I've discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their self "Riso" (that's the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. That aside, what's just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I've never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren't crimped and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, although that doesn't seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels are wet. The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of "clamshell" to provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? There's always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don't want anything permanent surrounding the connectors. Has anyone ever seen what I'm describing in a marine environment? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 7 12:00:34 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 12:00:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Last week we swapped 4 microinverters on a 2010 system in Naples, FL with Canadian Solar 230's. No issues whatsoever with the connectors. I probably oversaw installation of around 1,500 CS6P modules with Enphase M190s in the 2010-2012 time-frame and haven't seen any issues. Some installations are within 200 feet of the Gulf or on canals. M190s were very susceptible to ground fault issues, so the lack of CS6P issues in particular points to an isolated incident in your case perhaps. (Hopefully for my sake). Jason Szumlanski On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello, > > > > I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian > Solar panels, which I’ve never had a high opinion of, installed by others. > > I’ve discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation > resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning > condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a > garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their > self “Riso” (that’s the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. > > That aside, what’s just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module > interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I’ve > never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren’t crimped > and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, > although that doesn’t seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these > dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels > are wet. > > The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the > market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of “clamshell” to > provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? > There’s always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don’t want anything > permanent surrounding the connectors. > > Has anyone ever seen what I’m describing in a marine environment? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Tue Jun 7 12:20:18 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 09:20:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <00e701d1c0d8$7ceb0120$76c10360$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Kirk, My go to for making up outdoor & questionable connections is to goop them up with No Ox and have seen it working in the field for 15+ years now. A lot of our pole mount discos and other boxes run the real chance of being buried in the snow pack for months at a time. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 2:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment Hello, I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian Solar panels, which I've never had a high opinion of, installed by others. I've discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their self "Riso" (that's the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. That aside, what's just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I've never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren't crimped and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, although that doesn't seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels are wet. The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of "clamshell" to provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? There's always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don't want anything permanent surrounding the connectors. Has anyone ever seen what I'm describing in a marine environment? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Jun 7 10:15:27 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 10:15:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <1E4CF288-614B-4053-8CC6-FC257D67857A@gmail.com> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> <1E4CF288-614B-4053-8CC6-FC257D67857A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012301d1c0c7$0b0a8a00$211f9e00$@icloud.com> Hi, For clarity, corrosion was found on various module interconnects between panels, not where a string end mates to a field installed home-run connector. So I would hope Canadian Solar would use identical connectors on all their modules. They all certainly looked like MC4 connectors to me. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 11:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment Hi Kirk, the connectors if done correctly are water tight. There are few thoughts as to issues. wrong sized gland nut incorrectly tightened if double jacketed wire, the outer layer could have come lose allowing water in. are they real MC-4? debris during installation allowing damaged O rings Can’t think of much else. but way to many of them out there for it to be a OEM problem. jay peltz power On Jun 6, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian Solar panels, which I’ve never had a high opinion of, installed by others. I’ve discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their self “Riso” (that’s the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. That aside, what’s just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I’ve never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren’t crimped and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, although that doesn’t seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels are wet. The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of “clamshell” to provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? There’s always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don’t want anything permanent surrounding the connectors. Has anyone ever seen what I’m describing in a marine environment? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 10:56:53 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 07:56:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Watt sun linear arm Message-ID: > Hi all I need to replace the 2nd axis on a AZ225 tracker. Array wants $1100 for their new part. Seems way to high. Anybody know where to get the old style part? Thanks Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jun 7 12:56:19 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 09:56:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <012301d1c0c7$0b0a8a00$211f9e00$@icloud.com> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> <1E4CF288-614B-4053-8CC6-FC257D67857A@gmail.com> <012301d1c0c7$0b0a8a00$211f9e00$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <70f9c66e05e8fb52bb05c9017fde6c85@mail.gmail.com> Kirk, It sounds like you might have a bonafide ground fault somewhere, possibly at a location other than the module lead connections. I’ve seen current leakage cause all kinds of strange corrosion problems. Maybe there is a pinched or cracked module lead or homerun? It might even be possible that the wire in the conduit going to the inverters has a minor ground fault that gets compounded by moisture and low resistance up around the array. Make sure the array equipment grounding is solid too. Keep us posted on what you find! Cheers, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander *Sent:* Tuesday, June 07, 2016 7:15 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment Hi, For clarity, corrosion was found on various module interconnects between panels, not where a string end mates to a field installed home-run connector. So I would hope Canadian Solar would use identical connectors on all their modules. They all certainly looked like MC4 connectors to me. *Kirk Herander* *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* *www.vermontsolarnow.com * dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *jay *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 11:15 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment Hi Kirk, the connectors if done correctly are water tight. There are few thoughts as to issues. wrong sized gland nut incorrectly tightened if double jacketed wire, the outer layer could have come lose allowing water in. are they real MC-4? debris during installation allowing damaged O rings Can’t think of much else. but way to many of them out there for it to be a OEM problem. jay peltz power On Jun 6, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian Solar panels, which I’ve never had a high opinion of, installed by others. I’ve discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their self “Riso” (that’s the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. That aside, what’s just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I’ve never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren’t crimped and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, although that doesn’t seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels are wet. The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of “clamshell” to provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? There’s always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don’t want anything permanent surrounding the connectors. Has anyone ever seen what I’m describing in a marine environment? *Kirk Herander* *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* *www.vermontsolarnow.com * dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 7 14:56:38 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 14:56:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <012301d1c0c7$0b0a8a00$211f9e00$@icloud.com> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> <1E4CF288-614B-4053-8CC6-FC257D67857A@gmail.com> <012301d1c0c7$0b0a8a00$211f9e00$@icloud.com> Message-ID: That's very curious, indeed. Given that virtually all of the CS6Ps we installed were on micros, module interconnects would not have been an issue. Sounds like it could be a MC4 defect if the home run connection didn't exhibit the same issue. Strange. I'll be watching for other feedback. On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hi, > > For clarity, corrosion was found on various module interconnects between > panels, not where a string end mates to a field installed home-run > connector. So I would hope Canadian Solar would use identical connectors on > all their modules. They all certainly looked like MC4 connectors to me. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 11:15 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine > environment > > > > Hi Kirk, > > the connectors if done correctly are water tight. > > There are few thoughts as to issues. > > > > wrong sized gland nut > > incorrectly tightened > > if double jacketed wire, the outer layer could have come lose allowing > water in. > > are they real MC-4? > > > > debris during installation allowing damaged O rings > > > > Can’t think of much else. but way to many of them out there for it to be a > OEM problem. > > > > jay > > peltz power > > On Jun 6, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian > Solar panels, which I’ve never had a high opinion of, installed by others. > > I’ve discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation > resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning > condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a > garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their > self “Riso” (that’s the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. > > That aside, what’s just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module > interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I’ve > never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren’t crimped > and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, > although that doesn’t seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these > dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels > are wet. > > The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the > market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of “clamshell” to > provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? > There’s always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don’t want anything > permanent surrounding the connectors. > > Has anyone ever seen what I’m describing in a marine environment? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 7 13:30:12 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (Bill Brooks) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 10:30:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <70f9c66e05e8fb52bb05c9017fde6c85@mail.gmail.com> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> <1E4CF288-614B-4053-8CC6-FC257D67857A@gmail.com> <012301d1c0c7$0b0a8a00$211f9e00$@icloud.com> <70f9c66e05e8fb52bb05c9017fde6c85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <88C66A29-D5CF-4D79-A1A6-6A6A9F76479C@sbcglobal.net> Kirk, I ran into a very similar problem with a system where the connectors were left unmated for a period of time. Salts got into the connectors and whenever the humidity was high, the salt would track current through the connector seals. Replace all the connectors first before trying anything else. Bill. Sent from my awesomely huge iPhone 6+ > On Jun 7, 2016, at 9:56 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Kirk, > > It sounds like you might have a bonafide ground fault somewhere, possibly at a location other than the module lead connections. I’ve seen current leakage cause all kinds of strange corrosion problems. Maybe there is a pinched or cracked module lead or homerun? It might even be possible that the wire in the conduit going to the inverters has a minor ground fault that gets compounded by moisture and low resistance up around the array. Make sure the array equipment grounding is solid too. Keep us posted on what you find! > > Cheers, > > August > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2016 7:15 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment > > Hi, > For clarity, corrosion was found on various module interconnects between panels, not where a string end mates to a field installed home-run connector. So I would hope Canadian Solar would use identical connectors on all their modules. They all certainly looked like MC4 connectors to me. > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 11:15 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment > > Hi Kirk, > the connectors if done correctly are water tight. > There are few thoughts as to issues. > > wrong sized gland nut > incorrectly tightened > if double jacketed wire, the outer layer could have come lose allowing water in. > are they real MC-4? > > debris during installation allowing damaged O rings > > Can’t think of much else. but way to many of them out there for it to be a OEM problem. > > jay > peltz power > On Jun 6, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian Solar panels, which I’ve never had a high opinion of, installed by others. > I’ve discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their self “Riso” (that’s the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. > That aside, what’s just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I’ve never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren’t crimped and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, although that doesn’t seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels are wet. > The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of “clamshell” to provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? There’s always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don’t want anything permanent surrounding the connectors. > Has anyone ever seen what I’m describing in a marine environment? > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 7 16:51:22 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 16:51:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine environment In-Reply-To: <88C66A29-D5CF-4D79-A1A6-6A6A9F76479C@sbcglobal.net> References: <003b01d1c03a$5596fe10$00c4fa30$@icloud.com> <1E4CF288-614B-4053-8CC6-FC257D67857A@gmail.com> <012301d1c0c7$0b0a8a00$211f9e00$@icloud.com> <70f9c66e05e8fb52bb05c9017fde6c85@mail.gmail.com> <88C66A29-D5CF-4D79-A1A6-6A6A9F76479C@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: It does sound like a very plausible cause and a reasonable response, but doesn't replacing the connectors void the module warranty? You might want to get in contact with Canadian Solar before doing that. On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Bill Brooks wrote: > Kirk, > > I ran into a very similar problem with a system where the connectors were > left unmated for a period of time. Salts got into the connectors and > whenever the humidity was high, the salt would track current through the > connector seals. Replace all the connectors first before trying anything > else. > > Bill. > > Sent from my awesomely huge iPhone 6+ > > On Jun 7, 2016, at 9:56 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Kirk, > > > > It sounds like you might have a bonafide ground fault somewhere, possibly > at a location other than the module lead connections. I’ve seen current > leakage cause all kinds of strange corrosion problems. Maybe there is a > pinched or cracked module lead or homerun? It might even be possible that > the wire in the conduit going to the inverters has a minor ground fault > that gets compounded by moisture and low resistance up around the array. > Make sure the array equipment grounding is solid too. Keep us posted on > what you find! > > > > Cheers, > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 07, 2016 7:15 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine > environment > > > > Hi, > > For clarity, corrosion was found on various module interconnects between > panels, not where a string end mates to a field installed home-run > connector. So I would hope Canadian Solar would use identical connectors on > all their modules. They all certainly looked like MC4 connectors to me. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 11:15 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar / MC4 connectors in a marine > environment > > > > Hi Kirk, > > the connectors if done correctly are water tight. > > There are few thoughts as to issues. > > > > wrong sized gland nut > > incorrectly tightened > > if double jacketed wire, the outer layer could have come lose allowing > water in. > > are they real MC-4? > > > > debris during installation allowing damaged O rings > > > > Can’t think of much else. but way to many of them out there for it to be a > OEM problem. > > > > jay > > peltz power > > On Jun 6, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I am debugging a Florida ocean-side 35 kw array using 4 year old Canadian > Solar panels, which I’ve never had a high opinion of, installed by others. > > I’ve discovered several not-so-good problems, such as low insulation > resistance through the panels, ONLY when raining, early to mid-morning > condensation, or by using the last resort of spraying the panels with a > garden house and watching the SMA inverters shut down due to failing their > self “Riso” (that’s the IRT) test creating a ground fault error. > > That aside, what’s just as interesting is that about 8 or 9 of the module > interconnections were basically oozing the aqua-blue copper tarnish. I’ve > never seen this in any installation before. Either the MC4s weren’t crimped > and tightened at the factory well, or the connectors were seated poorly, > although that doesn’t seem to be the case. BTW, I replaced all these > dubious MC4 connectors and the ground faults still occur when the panels > are wet. > > The bigger issue is the panel warranty, but is there anything on the > market which could seal these connections, perhaps a type of “clamshell” to > provide an extra layer of protection, which is removable if need be? > There’s always glue-filled heat shrink, but ideally I don’t want anything > permanent surrounding the connectors. > > Has anyone ever seen what I’m describing in a marine environment? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Tue Jun 7 16:41:25 2016 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 20:41:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses In-Reply-To: References: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> Message-ID: Hi Jason www.apoc.com Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Real-logo-X-195] E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2016 7:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses While on the subject, anyone have a good source of 2" wide Butyl double sided tape? Our local roofing suppliers only have 1". On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 7:36 PM, Peter Giroux > wrote: Chad I second August. We have had great success with self tapping screws. Put some butyl on the L-foot and set it in. thx peter ----- Original Message ----- From: August Goers To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Hi Chad, We’ve occasionally installed onto steel trusses with either self drilling screws (no pilot required) or thread forming screws (pilot hole required). See attached sample spec sheets. I suppose you could install a standard tile hook type product with the types of fasters I listed above. Or, hire a roofer to waterproof your stanchions and reinstall the removed tiles. More and more, we are moving towards the latter because we’ve bumped into issues with degrading underlayment (felt paper) under tile roofs. Best, August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chad Waits Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 3:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses Wrenches, Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We’ve got a new project that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)… Is there a fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner – Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer [cid:image003.png at 01D1C0D3.07A4FA60] ________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 17364 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 7 18:21:21 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 18:21:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses In-Reply-To: References: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> Message-ID: ​Yeah, the three suppliers in my area all give me the same nonsense - it's not in their catalog and they have to order a full pallet to get it. I'm hoping to find a source online. Jason On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Tom Duffy wrote: > > > While on the subject, anyone have a good source of 2" wide Butyl double > sided tape? Our local roofing suppliers only have 1". > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 7:36 PM, Peter Giroux > wrote: > > Chad > > > > I second August. We have had great success with self tapping screws. Put > some butyl on the L-foot and set it in. > > > > thx > > peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* August Goers > > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 6:44 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses > > > > Hi Chad, > > > > We’ve occasionally installed onto steel trusses with either self drilling > screws (no pilot required) or thread forming screws (pilot hole required). > See attached sample spec sheets. > > > > I suppose you could install a standard tile hook type product with the > types of fasters I listed above. Or, hire a roofer to waterproof your > stanchions and reinstall the removed tiles. More and more, we are moving > towards the latter because we’ve bumped into issues with degrading > underlayment (felt paper) under tile roofs. > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chad Waits > *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 3:15 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses > > > > Wrenches, > > > > Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) > to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We’ve got a new project > that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in the > attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)… Is there a > fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? > > > > Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chad Waits > > President/Owner – Net Zero Solar > > 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > > Office: 520-207-4053 > > Cell: 520-270-4873 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group (239) 491-8010 main office (239) 322-5079 direct (239) 410-4985 mobile *6418 Commerce Park Dr, Fort Myers, FL 33966* *FL Certified Solar Contractor License CVC56956 * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 18:29:20 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 12:29:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Watt sun linear arm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You may be better off with a new part, l have been looking for the gear drive and there are few and far between Jerry On Jun 7, 2016 6:46 AM, "Jay" wrote: Hi all I need to replace the 2nd axis on a AZ225 tracker. Array wants $1100 for their new part. Seems way to high. Anybody know where to get the old style part? Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Tue Jun 7 19:06:46 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 19:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses In-Reply-To: References: <549BD38E789341B080292947DB6FE583@PeterPC> Message-ID: <26d5de45e0ff6fe37633711cef479cd2.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> We use this: https://www.bigrocksupply.com/store/p/5943-EternaBond-DoubleStick-2-in-x-50-ft.aspx?feed=Froogle&gclid=CIP7jrKEl80CFVclgQod0pkJvA > ​Yeah, the three suppliers in my area all give me the same nonsense - > it's > not in their catalog and they have to order a full pallet to get it. I'm > hoping to find a source online. > > Jason > > > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Tom Duffy wrote: > >> >> >> While on the subject, anyone have a good source of 2" wide Butyl double >> sided tape? Our local roofing suppliers only have 1". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 7:36 PM, Peter Giroux >> wrote: >> >> Chad >> >> >> >> I second August. We have had great success with self tapping screws. >> Put >> some butyl on the L-foot and set it in. >> >> >> >> thx >> >> peter >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> *From:* August Goers >> >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 6:44 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses >> >> >> >> Hi Chad, >> >> >> >> We’ve occasionally installed onto steel trusses with either self >> drilling >> screws (no pilot required) or thread forming screws (pilot hole >> required). >> See attached sample spec sheets. >> >> >> >> I suppose you could install a standard tile hook type product with the >> types of fasters I listed above. Or, hire a roofer to waterproof your >> stanchions and reinstall the removed tiles. More and more, we are moving >> towards the latter because we’ve bumped into issues with degrading >> underlayment (felt paper) under tile roofs. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> August >> >> Luminalt >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On >> Behalf Of *Chad Waits >> *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 3:15 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Steel Trusses >> >> >> >> Wrenches, >> >> >> >> Anyone out there have any experience attaching arrays (from the topside) >> to roofs with steel trusses under plywood decking? We’ve got a new >> project >> that has steel trusses and we would prefer to not have to spend time in >> the >> attic bolting through (it was 113 degrees here today)… Is there a >> fastening system out there that anyone has experience with? >> >> >> >> Oh, the roof is composite/strengthened clay tile as well. >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> Chad Waits >> >> President/Owner – Net Zero Solar >> >> 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 >> >> Office: 520-207-4053 >> >> Cell: 520-270-4873 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer > > Florida Solar Design Group > > (239) 491-8010 main office > > (239) 322-5079 direct > > (239) 410-4985 mobile > > *6418 Commerce Park Dr, Fort Myers, FL 33966* > > *FL Certified Solar Contractor License CVC56956 * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From daniel at greenwired.com Tue Jun 7 20:35:00 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 17:35:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump In-Reply-To: <1A29E993-2249-4C47-8D8D-9E769B2D6B27@gmail.com> References: <9cbd88250a42467e988a27d9ed626efe@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <1A29E993-2249-4C47-8D8D-9E769B2D6B27@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm with Jay on this one, We left the 9300's when we found Sun pumps. But there is nothing like the stainless steal SQ flex. Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > When I need to use a small DC pump, I long ago switched to Sun pumps from > the 9300, and haven't looked back. > Great folks to work with, great tech help, and lots of very cool pumps > besides their submersibles, greater reliability, easier rebuilds( no > leaks), any choice of wire, and more flow options. > > > As to the question of SQ FLEX vs DC submersible, I guess my criteria are > sort of: amount of pumping per year and accessibility. If they pump a lot > then it'll be rebuilds every 1-2 years, and won't take long to make it > cheaper to get the Flex, and if it's a really hard place to get to or long > wire run etc again cost vs reliability points to flex. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Jun 1, 2016, at 12:23 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: > > This is the cable we use for the 9300's. Haven't had any issues as long as > prepared properly. But would much prefer pigtails and heat shrink butt > splicing, way faster and leak-free. > > > > > https://www.anixter.com/en_ca/product-detail.PS-Copper%2BShipboard%2BCable.LSDSGU-9.html > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar > *Sent:* June-01-16 12:08 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo pump > > > > Gary, > What I suspect may be at issue is the wire. Shurflo requires jacketed > cable (10 or 12 AWG) of a particulat dimensional range. The issue is that > few suppliers carry the right cable. It's a Code issue - any pump with a > metal case requires an equipment bonding conductor (silly, I know) which > means three conductors, which won't fit in the cable gland. Having a > nonconductive plastic case, the 9300 only needs two conductors, will only > fit two conductors, and no pump or electrical supply house carries > two-conductor cable because nothing they sell uses it. Sort of a catch-22. > > Also, using unjacketed (yellow) multiconductor cable is a guaranteed way > to get water into the motor. > > Hope this helps. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > *allan at sindelarsolar.com* > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 09:36:27 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 06:36:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Watt sun linear arm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6758C3C2-2349-4121-8303-EFBD0C90917F@gmail.com> Hi all, I contacted the oem of the part. Venture mfg co. They want $350 for it. I'm sure my customer will like this price much better. Jay Peltz power. > On Jun 7, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > You may be better off with a new part, l have been looking for the gear drive and there are few and far between > Jerry > >> On Jun 7, 2016 6:46 AM, "Jay" wrote: >> Hi all > > I need to replace the 2nd axis on a AZ225 tracker. > Array wants $1100 for their new part. > > Seems way to high. > Anybody know where to get the old style part? > > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 10:40:26 2016 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:40:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI 5200 mounting Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a perplexing problem with a PVI 5200 and I can't get to the front of the tech support line at Solectria. The inverter has the usual backplate for mounting: bolt the backplate to the wall, lift the inverter, drop the slots on the back of the inverter onto the tabs on top of the plate. Fine so far. Then the instructions say to use the enclosed lock nuts to fasten the inverter to the back plate, "as shown in figure 15." Problem: no lock nuts, no place to put lock nuts, no indication of lock nuts in figure 15. The inverter just hangs loose on the tabs. I usually use SMA inverters, which have fixed nuts on the mounting frame and matching tabs on the inverter for stainless socket head screws. Has anyone dealt with this? I can't imagine just leaving the inverter hanging there. Many thanks, Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Solar Gain, LLC Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 9 10:56:40 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 07:56:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI 5200 mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42d95dae60f54b63b23b5071011179af@mail.gmail.com> Hilton: I have had exactly this problem, along with several other problems, with the Solectria inverters. I document them all in a web page: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Solectria/Solectria.html I had a lengthy series of exchanges with Solectria and received a lot of excuses and justifications, but no real results. We try to avoid using Solectria for all of these reasons and also for the fact they are no longer an American manufacturer. I think the most serious problem is the lack of separable DC disconnect. This mean you have to add a 600 volt rated DC disconnect within line-of-sight of the inverter. This is a big expense. Without the disconnect, the inverter is impossible to safely service during daylight hours. Good luck with this install. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2016 7:40 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI 5200 mounting Hello Wrenches, I have a perplexing problem with a PVI 5200 and I can't get to the front of the tech support line at Solectria. The inverter has the usual backplate for mounting: bolt the backplate to the wall, lift the inverter, drop the slots on the back of the inverter onto the tabs on top of the plate. Fine so far. Then the instructions say to use the enclosed lock nuts to fasten the inverter to the back plate, "as shown in figure 15." Problem: no lock nuts, no place to put lock nuts, no indication of lock nuts in figure 15. The inverter just hangs loose on the tabs. I usually use SMA inverters, which have fixed nuts on the mounting frame and matching tabs on the inverter for stainless socket head screws. Has anyone dealt with this? I can't imagine just leaving the inverter hanging there. Many thanks, Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Solar Gain, LLC Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Jun 9 16:07:18 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:07:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Connectder In-Reply-To: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <003a01d1c28a$871fab10$955f0130$@icloud.com> The connectder, I’ve just found, is not universal to all meter sockets. An older 100A Milbank socket, where a meter ring clamps the meter to the outside of the socket cover, will not work. If you try to clamp the connectder collar to the cover, then install the meter into the connectder, the weight of the meter extending out will cause about a quarter inch of loose play / meter seating in the socket jaws. The front of the meter sags. I had to replace the meter socket with the modern version, where the front cover requires no ring and holds the connectder (or normally the utility meter) tight in place on its own, to eliminate the play and sag. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 3:45 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Connectder In Vermont, our largest utility approves of and actually sells the Connectder meter collar at a discount – which of course requires the meter to be pulled. AND they allow the non-electrician installer to pull and reinstall it in single-family residential applications. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 2:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection - Tap connector recommendations I don’t know about other parts of the country. If we have a self contained revenue meter – ie the type that cuts off power to the building when it is pulled, then we just pull it for any type of supply side connection or service upgrade. Sometimes we have to cut the utility locking mechanism (we have meter locking rings in our territory) in order to pull the meter. We don’t get the utility involved. If the project has a CT style meter where pulling the meter doesn’t cut off power, then we have to setup a disconnect reconnect with the utility for supply side connections. Screwing around in a live panel even with insulation piercing conductors is a risk that is not worth taking. The utility can supply a lot of current on the supply side of a service! -August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 17:15:51 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 14:15:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inverter problem In-Reply-To: <003a01d1c28a$871fab10$955f0130$@icloud.com> References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> <003a01d1c28a$871fab10$955f0130$@icloud.com> Message-ID: HI All, I’ve got an inverter issue that nobody can fix or figure out. Ok some background. small house, 24v system, 1500watt of PV, midnite CC. just some lights, entertainment system. no pumps, fridge etc. System worked for 4.5 years. About 6-8 weeks ago customer called and said inverter was off. I went out, low AC few volts. tried all the tricks but nothing. OK dead. Shipped it off to the repair place here in NorCal. It needed a total rebuild, cost $800 I installed it, everything worked just fine. Next day I get a call, its not working. I go out, yep no AC volts, or again really low 8v. try everything, but take it out and send it back. Its checked, nothing found, another $200 I reinstall the 2nd time. Works fine, charges etc just like all the other times. customer calls next day, not working, says his lights are dim. Dim? I go out, AC is at like 40v. I take it to my local dealer to send back again. They of course think I’m crazy at this point. They put in on their bench, tests fine. I say, turn it 90 degrees, and lo and behold stops working. And this is with totally different remote, cables etc. I send it back again. Test center can’t reproduce the problem. They get permission for a total rebuild, with “tested” parts. I cannot confirm if that is new or used., Anyway the OEM approves the replacement boards. I reinstall, everything works. I get a call again, not working. I go out, yep 8v. I’ve got video of this now I call the OEM. They say not possible really, must be you. Try it again, do this and this and this. So this morning I test it at my house, with new remote, works fine. I try it vertical again fine. I drive the hr to the site. install it, doesn’t work, varied from 8-40 v. My first clue was dim lights in the house. OK so I do a full 15 minute reboot. Then: With new remote and cable all other cables removed ( AC and comm wires) except DC +/-. I get 0v. the remote says between 115 and 120v 60 hz. There is a light buzz coming from the unit, but its not solid, doesn’t sound like a full working inverter. And every so often, say 30 seconds to 1 min there will be a surge. I can hear and when it was connected to the house the lights would pulse brighter ( which was a new situation) But now there is no AC wires attached. Search mode is off, or on whatever didn’t change anything. I”ve got a RMA from the OEM. But I am just more than stumped. You’ll have to figure out what OEM or email me and I’ll tell you. So at this point, customer is out $1000. I’m out 5 or 6 trips at 2-3 hours per trip And its been out of service for like 6-8 weeks, with another few more probably as it is going back to the OEM. Thoughts, ideas? Thanks for your time, jay From tom at wagonmaker.com Thu Jun 9 18:23:15 2016 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (tom at wagonmaker.com) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:23:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inverter problem In-Reply-To: References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> <003a01d1c28a$871fab10$955f0130$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <29878ec179c48f13aac4c02b36b267df@wagonmaker.com> Is everything feeding the inverter in good shape? Batteries healthy, all cabling tight and clean, all connections good, all grounds in place? You don't say what brand inverter but it sounds like whoever it is will work with you if they've gone to those lengths already. Tom On 2016-06-09 11:15, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got an inverter issue that nobody can fix or figure out. > > Ok some background. > small house, 24v system, 1500watt of PV, midnite CC. > just some lights, entertainment system. > no pumps, fridge etc. > > System worked for 4.5 years. > > About 6-8 weeks ago customer called and said inverter was off. > > I went out, low AC few volts. tried all the tricks but nothing. > OK dead. Shipped it off to the repair place here in NorCal. > > It needed a total rebuild, cost $800 > > I installed it, everything worked just fine. > Next day I get a call, its not working. > > I go out, yep no AC volts, or again really low 8v. > try everything, but take it out and send it back. > Its checked, nothing found, another $200 > > I reinstall the 2nd time. Works fine, charges etc just like all the > other times. > customer calls next day, not working, says his lights are dim. Dim? > > I go out, AC is at like 40v. > I take it to my local dealer to send back again. They of course think > I’m crazy at this point. They put in on their bench, tests fine. I > say, turn it 90 degrees, and lo and behold stops working. And this is > with totally different remote, cables etc. > > I send it back again. Test center can’t reproduce the problem. > They get permission for a total rebuild, with “tested” parts. I > cannot confirm if that is new or used., Anyway the OEM approves the > replacement boards. > > I reinstall, everything works. > > I get a call again, not working. > I go out, yep 8v. I’ve got video of this now > > I call the OEM. They say not possible really, must be you. Try it > again, do this and this and this. > So this morning I test it at my house, with new remote, works fine. I > try it vertical again fine. > I drive the hr to the site. install it, doesn’t work, varied from 8-40 > v. > My first clue was dim lights in the house. > > OK so I do a full 15 minute reboot. > Then: > With new remote and cable all other cables removed ( AC and comm > wires) except DC +/-. > I get 0v. > the remote says between 115 and 120v 60 hz. There is a light buzz > coming from the unit, but its not solid, doesn’t sound like a full > working inverter. > And every so often, say 30 seconds to 1 min there will be a surge. I > can hear and when it was connected to the house the lights would pulse > brighter ( which was a new situation) > But now there is no AC wires attached. > Search mode is off, or on whatever didn’t change anything. > > I”ve got a RMA from the OEM. > > But I am just more than stumped. > You’ll have to figure out what OEM or email me and I’ll tell you. > > So at this point, customer is out $1000. > I’m out 5 or 6 trips at 2-3 hours per trip > And its been out of service for like 6-8 weeks, with another few more > probably as it is going back to the OEM. > > Thoughts, ideas? > > Thanks for your time, > > jay > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 18:48:59 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 15:48:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inverter problem In-Reply-To: <29878ec179c48f13aac4c02b36b267df@wagonmaker.com> References: <019d01d1abbd$952edca0$bf8c95e0$@icloud.com> <003a01d1c28a$871fab10$955f0130$@icloud.com> <29878ec179c48f13aac4c02b36b267df@wagonmaker.com> Message-ID: <3E83B768-5BC0-462A-824F-3DC3E7F76846@gmail.com> While I hope you are right. The fact that this is going on as long as it has, I’m not to sure. The answer to me is that since what ever it is, they can’t find, would be to give me/customer a reconditioned unit. I’m sure they got them. And they know that the board set in the one they are getting is “tested”. The only thing they haven’t changed is the transformer. But seems really hard to believe it has an intermittent fault. But then nothing on this one makes any sense There is no load, the 26v is measured at the inverter terminals. Batteries are 8 x L-16s, no load, batteries in float. Jay > On Jun 9, 2016, at 3:23 PM, tom at wagonmaker.com wrote: > > Is everything feeding the inverter in good shape? Batteries healthy, all cabling tight and clean, all connections good, all grounds in place? You don't say what brand inverter but it sounds like whoever it is will work with you if they've gone to those lengths already. > > Tom > > On 2016-06-09 11:15, jay wrote: >> HI All, >> I’ve got an inverter issue that nobody can fix or figure out. >> Ok some background. >> small house, 24v system, 1500watt of PV, midnite CC. >> just some lights, entertainment system. >> no pumps, fridge etc. >> System worked for 4.5 years. >> About 6-8 weeks ago customer called and said inverter was off. >> I went out, low AC few volts. tried all the tricks but nothing. >> OK dead. Shipped it off to the repair place here in NorCal. >> It needed a total rebuild, cost $800 >> I installed it, everything worked just fine. >> Next day I get a call, its not working. >> I go out, yep no AC volts, or again really low 8v. >> try everything, but take it out and send it back. >> Its checked, nothing found, another $200 >> I reinstall the 2nd time. Works fine, charges etc just like all the >> other times. >> customer calls next day, not working, says his lights are dim. Dim? >> I go out, AC is at like 40v. >> I take it to my local dealer to send back again. They of course think >> I’m crazy at this point. They put in on their bench, tests fine. I >> say, turn it 90 degrees, and lo and behold stops working. And this is >> with totally different remote, cables etc. >> I send it back again. Test center can’t reproduce the problem. >> They get permission for a total rebuild, with “tested” parts. I >> cannot confirm if that is new or used., Anyway the OEM approves the >> replacement boards. >> I reinstall, everything works. >> I get a call again, not working. >> I go out, yep 8v. I’ve got video of this now >> I call the OEM. They say not possible really, must be you. Try it >> again, do this and this and this. >> So this morning I test it at my house, with new remote, works fine. I >> try it vertical again fine. >> I drive the hr to the site. install it, doesn’t work, varied from 8-40 v. >> My first clue was dim lights in the house. >> OK so I do a full 15 minute reboot. >> Then: >> With new remote and cable all other cables removed ( AC and comm >> wires) except DC +/-. >> I get 0v. >> the remote says between 115 and 120v 60 hz. There is a light buzz >> coming from the unit, but its not solid, doesn’t sound like a full >> working inverter. >> And every so often, say 30 seconds to 1 min there will be a surge. I >> can hear and when it was connected to the house the lights would pulse >> brighter ( which was a new situation) >> But now there is no AC wires attached. >> Search mode is off, or on whatever didn’t change anything. >> I”ve got a RMA from the OEM. >> But I am just more than stumped. >> You’ll have to figure out what OEM or email me and I’ll tell you. >> So at this point, customer is out $1000. >> I’m out 5 or 6 trips at 2-3 hours per trip >> And its been out of service for like 6-8 weeks, with another few more >> probably as it is going back to the OEM. >> Thoughts, ideas? >> Thanks for your time, >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 19:40:07 2016 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 13:40:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000v rated MC4's Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I am building my first 1000v system here in Oahu. I have 2kv rated wire that was available on Island, what I do not have are the 1000v rated MC4 connectors. The jacket on this wire is huge! Doe anybody know where I can order these connectors that are rated and have a larger end (wire side) diameter that accepts this larger wire insulation? Mahalo in advance everybody! *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Operations* *State of Hawaii ES Electrician #10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Jun 9 20:32:38 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 14:32:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000v rated MC4's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03cd01d1c2af$9889ad40$c99d07c0$@com> Aloha James, If you’re not already aware of this, note that inverters that are wired with 600+ volt DC circuits require greater security measures (clearance spaces AND protective fencing) if they’re accessible to non-trained personnel. I learned this the hard way last year while installing SMA Tripowers on an external wall of a medical building. marco Aloha Wrenches, I am building my first 1000v system here in Oahu. I have 2kv rated wire that was available on Island, what I do not have are the 1000v rated MC4 connectors. The jacket on this wire is huge! Doe anybody know where I can order these connectors that are rated and have a larger end (wire side) diameter that accepts this larger wire insulation? Mahalo in advance everybody! James B. Rudolph Haleakala Solar Director of Operations State of Hawaii ES Electrician #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 20:42:09 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:42:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000v rated MC4's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96D85A39-4EBE-48E6-AF13-9416A8FDA67E@gmail.com> Hi James, I recommend PV Cables. They will have what you need in stock for fast shipping. Bryan is the owner. 707-923-3000 west coast time > On Jun 9, 2016, at 4:40 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > I am building my first 1000v system here in Oahu. > I have 2kv rated wire that was available on Island, what I do not have are the 1000v rated MC4 connectors. > > The jacket on this wire is huge! > > Doe anybody know where I can order these connectors that are rated and have a larger end (wire side) diameter that accepts this larger wire insulation? > > Mahalo in advance everybody! > > > > James B. Rudolph > Haleakala Solar > Director of Operations > State of Hawaii ES Electrician #10816 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Fri Jun 10 10:50:01 2016 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:50:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 volt battery charger. Message-ID: I have a customer that has an 8 kW outback radian system with a 516amphr 48 volt battery bank. He also has a large generator to power some large loads. He does not want the generator tied to the outback. He does not like automatic features but would like to run a simple battery charger whenever he has the generator running. Is this an issue with the outback system? And if not does anyone have a charger they recommend in this application? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Jun 10 10:56:19 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:56:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 volt battery charger. Message-ID: Gary, Is this an off-grid system? In any case, there is no reason that connecting the generator through the Radian means the batteries will charge automatically. And to not use the native charging capabilities of the Radian doesn't make much sense financially or functionally. Any other charger will either not charge the bank very well or will add substantial cost and control issues. Howie *Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 10:50 AM, gary easton wrote: > I have a customer that has an 8 kW outback radian system with a 516amphr > 48 volt battery bank. He also has a large generator to power some large > loads. He does not want the generator tied to the outback. He > does not like automatic features but would like to run a simple battery > charger whenever he has the generator running. Is this an issue with the > outback system? And if not does anyone have a charger they recommend in > this application? > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 12:38:10 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:38:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 volt battery charger. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tell your client that the Outback Radian is an "inverter/charger" and the only things that need to programmed for charging via generator or grid are bulk, absorb, float and equalize. Nothing needs to be set on automatic. Adding an external charger would be a waste of money. How about telling them "Whenever the generator is running, it powers your big load and still uses all extra energy to charge the battery bank?" Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Gary, > Is this an off-grid system? In any case, there is no reason that > connecting the generator through the Radian means the batteries will charge > automatically. And to not use the native charging capabilities of the > Radian doesn't make much sense financially or functionally. Any other > charger will either not charge the bank very well or will add substantial > cost and control issues. > > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson* > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > Sun Catcher, LLC > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 10:50 AM, gary easton wrote: > >> I have a customer that has an 8 kW outback radian system with a 516amphr >> 48 volt battery bank. He also has a large generator to power some large >> loads. He does not want the generator tied to the outback. He >> does not like automatic features but would like to run a simple battery >> charger whenever he has the generator running. Is this an issue with the >> outback system? And if not does anyone have a charger they recommend in >> this application? >> >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Jun 10 12:47:18 2016 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:47:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 volt battery charger. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From a battery manufacture... My question would be: Is the Generator large enough to handle 12-14Kw of total (Pass thru/Charging) load? If so then my comment to the client would be "What, you want to spend more money when you have a 120amp available charger?" There is no reason to do this with the Radian, its a good charger. Just like any charger just make sure your settings are programmed correctly for the batteries used. If not then you can adjust the max current draw from the Radian... It may take a little tweaking, but with that small of a bank they really don't need much generator source. It'll be another $1000.00+ to install a secondary charger... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 7:50 AM, gary easton wrote: > I have a customer that has an 8 kW outback radian system with a 516amphr > 48 volt battery bank. He also has a large generator to power some large > loads. He does not want the generator tied to the outback. He > does not like automatic features but would like to run a simple battery > charger whenever he has the generator running. Is this an issue with the > outback system? And if not does anyone have a charger they recommend in > this application? > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Jun 10 13:23:17 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:23:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 volt battery charger. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005101d1c33c$c92c1ae0$5b8450a0$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Gary, 25 years ago I bought an IBE industrial rated charger to top off my IBE batteries with the gen set. If your client just can’t get over hooking up the radian to the gen set, you might just check out IBE and see if they are still making these, as mine is still working. http://www.ibe-inc.com/index.htm Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 7:50 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 volt battery charger. I have a customer that has an 8 kW outback radian system with a 516amphr 48 volt battery bank. He also has a large generator to power some large loads. He does not want the generator tied to the outback. He does not like automatic features but would like to run a simple battery charger whenever he has the generator running. Is this an issue with the outback system? And if not does anyone have a charger they recommend in this application? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 15:48:54 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:48:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 volt battery charger. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <142805E3-2D11-4349-ADB1-0CEB4400A611@gmail.com> Hi Gary Well if the customer wants it that way. It'll work no issues. I agree with the IBE. IBE make big industrial ones. I'm not sure what other big options there are. Iota or power source make smaller solid state ones, that you would scale to your needs. As it sounds like he's got industrial batteries, you'll want to find the correct size based on the battery specific info. Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 10, 2016, at 7:50 AM, gary easton wrote: > > I have a customer that has an 8 kW outback radian system with a 516amphr 48 volt battery bank. He also has a large generator to power some large loads. He does not want the generator tied to the outback. He does not like automatic features but would like to run a simple battery charger whenever he has the generator running. Is this an issue with the outback system? And if not does anyone have a charger they recommend in this application? > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 22:03:08 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 16:03:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 volt battery charger. In-Reply-To: <142805E3-2D11-4349-ADB1-0CEB4400A611@gmail.com> References: <142805E3-2D11-4349-ADB1-0CEB4400A611@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches There are several 48 volt golf cart chargers out there with a varity of outputs and some programable for different batteries. They work well with even dirty gennies and use a shunt in the set up so there is no fmdc issues. I use this set up when l cant take a chance on switch over issues or noises. Jerry On Jun 10, 2016 11:17 AM, "Jay" wrote: > Hi Gary > > Well if the customer wants it that way. It'll work no issues. > I agree with the IBE. > IBE make big industrial ones. > I'm not sure what other big options there are. > Iota or power source make smaller solid state ones, that you would scale > to your needs. > As it sounds like he's got industrial batteries, you'll want to find the > correct size based on the battery specific info. > > Jay > Peltz power > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 10, 2016, at 7:50 AM, gary easton wrote: > > > > I have a customer that has an 8 kW outback radian system with a 516amphr > 48 volt battery bank. He also has a large generator to power some large > loads. He does not want the generator tied to the outback. He does not > like automatic features but would like to run a simple battery charger > whenever he has the generator running. Is this an issue with the outback > system? And if not does anyone have a charger they recommend in this > application? > > > > -- > > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Jun 10 22:59:26 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 22:59:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 volt battery charger. In-Reply-To: References: <142805E3-2D11-4349-ADB1-0CEB4400A611@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jerry, Do you have any recommended manu's for these type chargers. Occasionally I run into situations where this type of solution could be a reasonable option. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jun 10, 2016 10:04 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > > Wrenches > There are several 48 volt golf cart chargers out there with a varity of outputs and some programable for different batteries. They work well with even dirty gennies and use a shunt in the set up so there is no fmdc issues. I use this set up when l cant take a chance on switch over issues or noises. > Jerry > > On Jun 10, 2016 11:17 AM, "Jay" wrote: >> >> Hi Gary >> >> Well if the customer wants it that way. It'll work no issues. >> I agree with the IBE. >> IBE make big industrial ones. >> I'm not sure what other big options there are. >> Iota or power source make smaller solid state ones, that you would scale to your needs. >> As it sounds like he's got industrial batteries, you'll want to find the correct size based on the battery specific info. >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Jun 10, 2016, at 7:50 AM, gary easton wrote: >> > >> > I have a customer that has an 8 kW outback radian system with a 516amphr 48 volt battery bank. He also has a large generator to power some large loads. He does not want the generator tied to the outback. He does not like automatic features but would like to run a simple battery charger whenever he has the generator running. Is this an issue with the outback system? And if not does anyone have a charger they recommend in this application? >> > >> > -- >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at jordansolar.net Sat Jun 11 14:58:56 2016 From: travis at jordansolar.net (Travis Jordan) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 12:58:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd Inverter Problem Message-ID: Just a thought, but some of the old or cheap inverters don't take nicely to bonding the ground to neutral. You may try leaving the ground wire disconnected from the inverter for a test and see if that changes anything.... Also make sure you don't have moisture or a short of some sort in your output cable to the house, I got involved with a job once that had normal Romex buried outside and it got wet and caused issues with the inverter not working properly. It ohmed out fine, but when I hooked it up it didn't play nice with the inverter. I would suspect something with the site wiring from what I am understanding from your post. Good luck! Travis Jordan travis at jordansolar.net travis at mtsolar.us -- *Travis Jordan* travis at jordansolar.net *877-215-8431, Ext. 104* *Cell: 406-274-1230* *Jordan Solar* *jordansolar.net* [image: Jordan Solar Logo] Solar PV Installer # 031409-69 MT EL License # ELE-EJ-LIC-9886 WA EL License# TRAVIJE901PK ID EL Masters # 010810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 18:46:19 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 16:46:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd Inverter Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since you don't name the inverter OEM, I'm just guessing, but.....the ground to neutral bond thing can indeed fry what I call "truck top" AKA "portable" inverters. The puzzling thing in my experience is it can take 6 months......1 month.....1 week......1 second for the failure. Or it might work fine (but not be to code). My rule....to connect to a standard AC load panel (no matter how small) the inverter has to have actual hard-wired AC Out terminals...hot, neutral and ground. If the only way to connect it to the house AC system is a 120V AC extension cord with the female end chopped off and hard wired to the load panel, you are asking for trouble and have left NEC far behind. I got well-zapped by one these in the past.... Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 12:58 PM, Travis Jordan wrote: > Just a thought, but some of the old or cheap inverters don't take nicely > to bonding the ground to neutral. You may try leaving the ground wire > disconnected from the inverter for a test and see if that changes > anything.... Also make sure you don't have moisture or a short of some sort > in your output cable to the house, I got involved with a job once that had > normal Romex buried outside and it got wet and caused issues with the > inverter not working properly. It ohmed out fine, but when I hooked it up > it didn't play nice with the inverter. I would suspect something with the > site wiring from what I am understanding from your post. > > Good luck! > > Travis Jordan > travis at jordansolar.net > travis at mtsolar.us > > > -- > *Travis Jordan* > travis at jordansolar.net > *877-215-8431, Ext. 104* > *Cell: 406-274-1230* > *Jordan Solar* > *jordansolar.net* > [image: Jordan Solar Logo] > Solar PV Installer # 031409-69 > MT EL License # ELE-EJ-LIC-9886 > WA EL License# TRAVIJE901PK > ID EL Masters # 010810 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 17:16:47 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 14:16:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd Inverter Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I thought I would provide a follow up to my mystery inverter problem I was contacted by a few very talented senior inverter engineers and the problem pretty much has to be in the wiring loom. Comm wires, or connector/s etc. I will keep you all updated as to the next part of this fiasco Thx Jay Peltz power > On Jun 11, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Travis Jordan wrote: > > Just a thought, but some of the old or cheap inverters don't take nicely to bonding the ground to neutral. You may try leaving the ground wire disconnected from the inverter for a test and see if that changes anything.... Also make sure you don't have moisture or a short of some sort in your output cable to the house, I got involved with a job once that had normal Romex buried outside and it got wet and caused issues with the inverter not working properly. It ohmed out fine, but when I hooked it up it didn't play nice with the inverter. I would suspect something with the site wiring from what I am understanding from your post. > > Good luck! > > Travis Jordan > travis at jordansolar.net > travis at mtsolar.us > > > -- > Travis Jordan > travis at jordansolar.net > 877-215-8431, Ext. 104 > Cell: 406-274-1230 > Jordan Solar > jordansolar.net > > Solar PV Installer # 031409-69 > MT EL License # ELE-EJ-LIC-9886 > WA EL License# TRAVIJE901PK > ID EL Masters # 010810 > > _____ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 20:22:18 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 17:22:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd Inverter Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi dan Thanks. But the problem occurs with no wires connected to the inverter other than DC power. Thx Jay Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 11, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Since you don't name the inverter OEM, I'm just guessing, but.....the ground to neutral bond thing can indeed fry what I call "truck top" AKA "portable" inverters. The puzzling thing in my experience is it can take 6 months......1 month.....1 week......1 second for the failure. Or it might work fine (but not be to code). > > My rule....to connect to a standard AC load panel (no matter how small) the inverter has to have actual hard-wired AC Out terminals...hot, neutral and ground. If the only way to connect it to the house AC system is a 120V AC extension cord with the female end chopped off and hard wired to the load panel, you are asking for trouble and have left NEC far behind. I got well-zapped by one these in the past.... > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > >> On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 12:58 PM, Travis Jordan wrote: >> Just a thought, but some of the old or cheap inverters don't take nicely to bonding the ground to neutral. You may try leaving the ground wire disconnected from the inverter for a test and see if that changes anything.... Also make sure you don't have moisture or a short of some sort in your output cable to the house, I got involved with a job once that had normal Romex buried outside and it got wet and caused issues with the inverter not working properly. It ohmed out fine, but when I hooked it up it didn't play nice with the inverter. I would suspect something with the site wiring from what I am understanding from your post. >> >> Good luck! >> >> Travis Jordan >> travis at jordansolar.net >> travis at mtsolar.us >> >> >> -- >> Travis Jordan >> travis at jordansolar.net >> 877-215-8431, Ext. 104 >> Cell: 406-274-1230 >> Jordan Solar >> jordansolar.net >> >> Solar PV Installer # 031409-69 >> MT EL License # ELE-EJ-LIC-9886 >> WA EL License# TRAVIJE901PK >> ID EL Masters # 010810 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Jun 12 13:46:46 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:46:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd Inverter Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160612174652.EFA95104A9@che.dreamhost.com> You can isolate the neural bar and ground the equipment grounding system to a grounding electrode. At 06:46 PM 6/11/2016, you wrote: >Since you don't name the inverter OEM, I'm just >guessing, but.....the ground to neutral bond >thing can indeed fry what I call "truck top" AKA >"portable" inverters. The puzzling thing in my >experience is it can take 6 months......1 >month.....1 week......1 second for the failure. >Or it might work fine (but not be to code). > >My rule....to connect to a standard AC load >panel (no matter how small) the inverter has to >have actual hard-wired AC Out terminals...hot, >neutral and ground. If the only way to connect >it to the house AC system is a 120V AC extension >cord with the female end chopped off and hard >wired to the load panel, you are asking for >trouble and have left NEC far behind. I got >well-zapped by one these in the past.... > >Dan Fink >Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >IREC Certified Instructor™ for: < >~ PV Installation Professional >~ Small Wind Installer >Executive Director, Buckville Energy >NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >970.672.4342 > > > >On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 12:58 PM, Travis Jordan ><travis at jordansolar.net> wrote: >Just a thought, but some of the old or cheap >inverters don't take nicely to bonding the >ground to neutral. You may try leaving the >ground wire disconnected from the inverter for a >test and see if that changes anything.... Also >make sure you don't have moisture or a short of >some sort in your output cable to the house, I >got involved with a job once that had normal >Romex buried outside and it got wet and caused >issues with the inverter not working properly. >It ohmed out fine, but when I hooked it up it >didn't play nice with the inverter. I would >suspect something with the site wiring from what >I am understanding from your post. > >Good luck! > >Travis Jordan >travis at jordansolar.net >travis at mtsolar.us > > >-- >Travis Jordan >travis at jordansolar.net >877-215-8431, Ext. 104 >Cell: 406-274-1230 >Jordan Solar >jordansolar.net > >Jordan Solar Logo > >Solar PV Installer # 031409-69 >MT EL License # ELE-EJ-LIC-9886 >WA EL License# TRAVIJE901PK >ID EL Masters # 010810 > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 14:57:23 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:57:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd Inverter Problem In-Reply-To: <20160612174652.EFA95104A9@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160612174652.EFA95104A9@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Yah Drake, it can be done and I have done that before - in small main panels it involved a plastic shim under the neutral terminal block, and nylon nut/bolt to hold it down, with the EGC connected to GEC and GE on the main panel enclosure. With nice hard-wired small inverters available now (Morningstar SureSine) I don't think I'd ever mess with truck stop inverters wired to a main panel again. Or, just don't wire up the ground from the 120VAC outlet on the front of the portable inverter....that would work too. Ugh. On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > You can isolate the neural bar and ground the equipment grounding system > to a grounding electrode. > > At 06:46 PM 6/11/2016, you wrote: > > Since you don't name the inverter OEM, I'm just guessing, but.....the > ground to neutral bond thing can indeed fry what I call "truck top" AKA > "portable" inverters. The puzzling thing in my experience is it can take 6 > months......1 month.....1 week......1 second for the failure. Or it might > work fine (but not be to code). > > My rule....to connect to a standard AC load panel (no matter how small) > the inverter has to have actual hard-wired AC Out terminals...hot, neutral > and ground. If the only way to connect it to the house AC system is a 120V > AC extension cord with the female end chopped off and hard wired to the > load panel, you are asking for trouble and have left NEC far behind. I got > well-zapped by one these in the past.... > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 14:08:52 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:08:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW range. Any suggestions? Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 13 14:15:12 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:15:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Solectria PVI 20TL would meet your criteria. I can't vouch for it personally, but I've seen quite a few 14TL successfully installed in commercial applications. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW > range. Any suggestions? > > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Jun 13 14:11:26 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:11:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <052c01d1c59f$00e4ed90$02aec8b0$@solarcentex.com> Consider using three single phase inverters putting out 208; one inverter for AB leg, AC leg, and BC leg. Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 1:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters Hello Wrenches, I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW range. Any suggestions? Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 48527 bytes Desc: not available URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 16:09:51 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:09:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, It looks like the 14k is 208/120V but the 20TL is 277/480 Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Solectria PVI 20TL would meet your criteria. I can't vouch for it > personally, but I've seen quite a few 14TL successfully installed in > commercial applications. > > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW >> range. Any suggestions? >> >> Carl Adams >> SunRock Solar >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 13 16:16:49 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:16:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You're right. They share the same installation an user manuals, so I assumed they were the same output voltage. Is there a reason you can't use a pair of 10kWs? On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > Jason, > > It looks like the 14k is 208/120V but the 20TL is 277/480 > > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Solectria PVI 20TL would meet your criteria. I can't vouch for it >> personally, but I've seen quite a few 14TL successfully installed in >> commercial applications. >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Carl Adams >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW >>> range. Any suggestions? >>> >>> Carl Adams >>> SunRock Solar >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 16:23:23 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:23:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Howard, I could certainly use multiple smaller inverters. I was just looking to see if there was a larger 208 inverter available. Seems the upper limit on the 208Y/120V inerters is at about 14kW. One larger inverter is almost always less expensive than two smaller ones in terms of initial expense and installation labor. Thanks for your suggestions Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > You're right. They share the same installation an user manuals, so I > assumed they were the same output voltage. > > Is there a reason you can't use a pair of 10kWs? > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> It looks like the 14k is 208/120V but the 20TL is 277/480 >> >> Carl Adams >> SunRock Solar >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> >> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Solectria PVI 20TL would meet your criteria. I can't vouch for it >>> personally, but I've seen quite a few 14TL successfully installed in >>> commercial applications. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Carl Adams >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW >>>> range. Any suggestions? >>>> >>>> Carl Adams >>>> SunRock Solar >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Mon Jun 13 16:07:49 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:07:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters In-Reply-To: <052c01d1c59f$00e4ed90$02aec8b0$@solarcentex.com> References: <052c01d1c59f$00e4ed90$02aec8b0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <014701d1c5af$43817000$ca845000$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I am late to this thread. But why not use a SMA Tri-Power or the equivalent inverter from Solectria and others? The two mentioned are great inverters and tested in the field for at least 18 months now. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howard Arey Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:11 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters Consider using three single phase inverters putting out 208; one inverter for AB leg, AC leg, and BC leg. Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com Solar Centex Logo - No Back.png 10 percent resize From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 1:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters Hello Wrenches, I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW range. Any suggestions? Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 17793 bytes Desc: not available URL: From craig at northwindre.com Mon Jun 13 17:10:11 2016 From: craig at northwindre.com (Craig Gerald Buttke) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:10:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've used SolarEdge 14.4 and 10kW 3phase output, 208Y/120V and we enjoyed them quite a bit. Flexible in design. You can use the double optimizers with these - 700W or 600W Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professionalâ„¢ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professionalâ„¢ State of WI: Master Electrician > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:08:52 -0400 > From: Carl Adams > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW > range. Any suggestions? > > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Jun 13 17:07:05 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:07:05 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters In-Reply-To: <575f1fef.c25a420a.a6db5.ffffa74aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <052c01d1c59f$00e4ed90$02aec8b0$@solarcentex.com> <575f1fef.c25a420a.a6db5.ffffa74aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00e701d1c5b7$8b1a78f0$a14f6ad0$@com> SMA TPs are 277/480V only. That said, one can find high efficiency step-down transformers from Dongan in Michigan. And very reasonably priced including in s.s. enclosure. marco I am late to this thread. But why not use a SMA Tri-Power or the equivalent inverter from Solectria and others? The two mentioned are great inverters and tested in the field for at least 18 months now. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howard Arey Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:11 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters Consider using three single phase inverters putting out 208; one inverter for AB leg, AC leg, and BC leg. Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com Solar Centex Logo - No Back.png 10 percent resize From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 1:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters Hello Wrenches, I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW range. Any suggestions? Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 17793 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jun 13 17:15:23 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:15:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters In-Reply-To: <052c01d1c59f$00e4ed90$02aec8b0$@solarcentex.com> References: <052c01d1c59f$00e4ed90$02aec8b0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <20160613211557.0A9F210789@che.dreamhost.com> Remember if you do this you may have to implement a scheme to de energize the other two if one goes offline. NEC dictates lines can't be unbalanced due to the loss of an inverter. The rub is what does the utility require in terms of allowable imbalance. Typically it is around 6kW. -----Original Message----- From: "Howard Arey" Sent: ‎6/‎13/‎2016 14:11 To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters Consider using three single phase inverters putting out 208; one inverter for AB leg, AC leg, and BC leg. Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 1:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters Hello Wrenches, I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW range. Any suggestions? Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Jun 13 21:20:14 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:20:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall Message-ID: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> Provides an idea of size and scale. Tesla Battery system Aalto residence2. 6 may 2016 >From left to right-disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, two Tesla Powerwalls. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79750 bytes Desc: not available URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Mon Jun 13 22:54:36 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 22:54:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> Message-ID: Hi Marco, I assume that is the StorEdge 7600? Is this your install? What was your access to the StorEdge? Thanks for the photo, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jun 13, 2016 9:29 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: > > Provides an idea of size and scale. > > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, two Tesla Powerwalls. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Jun 13 23:42:33 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:42:33 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> Message-ID: <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> Yes, Howie…their SE StorEdge. Not my install. Sunrun did it on Oahu. Did a big press whoopdeedo and even got the governor of Hawaii and mayor of Honolulu to attend. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 4:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall Hi Marco, I assume that is the StorEdge 7600? Is this your install? What was your access to the StorEdge? Thanks for the photo, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jun 13, 2016 9:29 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: > > Provides an idea of size and scale. > > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, two Tesla Powerwalls. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Jun 14 08:59:17 2016 From: LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:59:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> Message-ID: Marco, Thank you, your timing is perfect. I am working with a utility to get approval of a StorEdge / Solar Edge combination with Tesla batteries and potentially export limitation. The utility has been asking for examples, and this is the first I can bring them back. HECO territory? Sorry the system isn’t yours, but thanks for helping pave the way for others! Any other examples of StorEdge with batteries or SolarEdge or StorEdge using export limitation would be most helpful, meeting with them on Friday, Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter M.S. in Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Solar PV Installer #102503-23 Director Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:43 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall Yes, Howie…their SE StorEdge. Not my install. Sunrun did it on Oahu. Did a big press whoopdeedo and even got the governor of Hawaii and mayor of Honolulu to attend. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 4:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall Hi Marco, I assume that is the StorEdge 7600? Is this your install? What was your access to the StorEdge? Thanks for the photo, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jun 13, 2016 9:29 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" > wrote: > > Provides an idea of size and scale. > > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, two Tesla Powerwalls. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 11:44:27 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:44:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> Message-ID: I just completed a 14KWh Sonnen system for one of our clients if anyone wants to know about that system. On Jun 14, 2016 8:59 AM, "Lloyd Hoffstatter" < LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > Marco, > > > > Thank you, your timing is perfect. I am working with a utility to get > approval of a StorEdge / Solar Edge combination with Tesla batteries and > potentially export limitation. > > The utility has been asking for examples, and this is the first I can > bring them back. HECO territory? Sorry the system isn’t yours, but thanks > for helping pave the way for others! > > > > Any other examples of StorEdge with batteries or SolarEdge or StorEdge > using export limitation would be most helpful, meeting with them on Friday, > > > > Best regards, > > Lloyd > > > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > > M.S. in Applied Solar Energy > > NABCEP Solar PV Installer #102503-23 > > > > Director > > Sunstruck Consulting > > Lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com > > 845-657-8132 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf > *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 11:43 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall > > > > Yes, Howie…their SE StorEdge. > > > > Not my install. Sunrun did it on Oahu. Did a big press whoopdeedo and > even got the governor of Hawaii and mayor of Honolulu to attend. > > > > marco > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Howie > Michaelson > *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 4:55 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall > > > > Hi Marco, > I assume that is the StorEdge 7600? Is this your install? What was your > access to the StorEdge? > > Thanks for the photo, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > On Jun 13, 2016 9:29 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: > > > > Provides an idea of size and scale. > > > > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, > two Tesla Powerwalls. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Tue Jun 14 12:15:58 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:15:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> Message-ID: I would love to hear more about that install. Design, sense of equipment quality and development (is programming and function well thought out and implemented), availability, pictures, etc. are all significant questions. Thanks for the offer! Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jun 14, 2016 11:45 AM, "Chris Mason" wrote: > I just completed a 14KWh Sonnen system for one of our clients if anyone > wants to know about that system. > On Jun 14, 2016 8:59 AM, "Lloyd Hoffstatter" < > LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > >> Marco, >> >> >> >> Thank you, your timing is perfect. I am working with a utility to get >> approval of a StorEdge / Solar Edge combination with Tesla batteries and >> potentially export limitation. >> >> The utility has been asking for examples, and this is the first I can >> bring them back. HECO territory? Sorry the system isn’t yours, but thanks >> for helping pave the way for others! >> >> >> >> Any other examples of StorEdge with batteries or SolarEdge or StorEdge >> using export limitation would be most helpful, meeting with them on Friday, >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Lloyd >> >> >> >> Lloyd Hoffstatter >> >> M.S. in Applied Solar Energy >> >> NABCEP Solar PV Installer #102503-23 >> >> >> >> Director >> >> Sunstruck Consulting >> >> Lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com >> >> 845-657-8132 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf >> *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 11:43 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall >> >> >> >> Yes, Howie…their SE StorEdge. >> >> >> >> Not my install. Sunrun did it on Oahu. Did a big press whoopdeedo and >> even got the governor of Hawaii and mayor of Honolulu to attend. >> >> >> >> marco >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Howie >> Michaelson >> *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 4:55 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall >> >> >> >> Hi Marco, >> I assume that is the StorEdge 7600? Is this your install? What was your >> access to the StorEdge? >> >> Thanks for the photo, >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Sun Catcher >> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >> 802-272-0004 >> On Jun 13, 2016 9:29 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: >> > >> > Provides an idea of size and scale. >> > >> > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, >> two Tesla Powerwalls. >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Jun 14 13:44:19 2016 From: LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:44:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> Message-ID: That would be great! Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 12:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall I would love to hear more about that install. Design, sense of equipment quality and development (is programming and function well thought out and implemented), availability, pictures, etc. are all significant questions. Thanks for the offer! Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jun 14, 2016 11:45 AM, "Chris Mason" > wrote: I just completed a 14KWh Sonnen system for one of our clients if anyone wants to know about that system. On Jun 14, 2016 8:59 AM, "Lloyd Hoffstatter" > wrote: Marco, Thank you, your timing is perfect. I am working with a utility to get approval of a StorEdge / Solar Edge combination with Tesla batteries and potentially export limitation. The utility has been asking for examples, and this is the first I can bring them back. HECO territory? Sorry the system isn’t yours, but thanks for helping pave the way for others! Any other examples of StorEdge with batteries or SolarEdge or StorEdge using export limitation would be most helpful, meeting with them on Friday, Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter M.S. in Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Solar PV Installer #102503-23 Director Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:43 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall Yes, Howie…their SE StorEdge. Not my install. Sunrun did it on Oahu. Did a big press whoopdeedo and even got the governor of Hawaii and mayor of Honolulu to attend. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 4:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall Hi Marco, I assume that is the StorEdge 7600? Is this your install? What was your access to the StorEdge? Thanks for the photo, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jun 13, 2016 9:29 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" > wrote: > > Provides an idea of size and scale. > > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, two Tesla Powerwalls. > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Jun 14 12:43:06 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 06:43:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> Message-ID: <004b01d1c65b$d4cd4140$7e67c3c0$@com> Yes, this install was on Oahu in HECO territory. HECO, HELCO and MECO have an interconnect agreement known as Customer Self-Supply (CSS) where the customer-generator is not supposed to export more than an “inadvertent” amount of surplus power to the grid. For these CSS systems, battery storage is needed. Note that there’s been a whopping one CSS system installed to-date by Sunrun. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Hoffstatter Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 2:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall Marco, Thank you, your timing is perfect. I am working with a utility to get approval of a StorEdge / Solar Edge combination with Tesla batteries and potentially export limitation. The utility has been asking for examples, and this is the first I can bring them back. HECO territory? Sorry the system isn’t yours, but thanks for helping pave the way for others! Any other examples of StorEdge with batteries or SolarEdge or StorEdge using export limitation would be most helpful, meeting with them on Friday, Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter M.S. in Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Solar PV Installer #102503-23 Director Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:43 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall Yes, Howie…their SE StorEdge. Not my install. Sunrun did it on Oahu. Did a big press whoopdeedo and even got the governor of Hawaii and mayor of Honolulu to attend. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 4:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall Hi Marco, I assume that is the StorEdge 7600? Is this your install? What was your access to the StorEdge? Thanks for the photo, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jun 13, 2016 9:29 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: > > Provides an idea of size and scale. > > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, two Tesla Powerwalls. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 14:01:12 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 14:01:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> Message-ID: Howie, The Sonnen Eco16 we installed is very nice equipment. I have previously used the Radian 8048A inverter but the Sonnen adds a really nice battery system, nice interface, and a Z-wave energy management system. The battery system is by Sony and the stats are incredible. !0 year warranty, 10,000 cycles, discharge to zero without damage, very good battery management system. The install was easy enough, connecting the mains cabling is a challenge as there is very little room, I would definitely have a trough or some kind of cable management device above the unit. It takes two people, one to guide the cables into place and one to push them. The batteries are so light it is surprising, one person can easily carry them. This alone is enough reason to go Lithium. I set the minimum battery reserve to 10%, this client wants to use as much solar as possible. Setting up the system is simple, there's a few parameters but they are easily understood and the manual is very complete. The client already had an 8KW PV system using a Sunny Boy 8000TL. That was already connected to the load panel so we didn't have to do any solar installation. The Sonnen Eco uses frequency shift to turn off the inverter. This does not work when it is grid tied, so it can't stop the inverter backfeeding the grid, which is a problem for us. There's going to be a fix for that shortly that will allow us to use a contactor to disable the inverter. If you have clients looking for Lithium batteries, this is a very clean, very easy to install and configure system. I will post pictures after I finish the clean up, we are making a wooden shroud to hide the conduits. On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > I would love to hear more about that install. Design, sense of equipment > quality and development (is programming and function well thought out and > implemented), availability, pictures, etc. are all significant questions. > Thanks for the offer! > > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > On Jun 14, 2016 11:45 AM, "Chris Mason" > wrote: > >> I just completed a 14KWh Sonnen system for one of our clients if anyone >> wants to know about that system. >> On Jun 14, 2016 8:59 AM, "Lloyd Hoffstatter" < >> LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: >> >>> Marco, >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, your timing is perfect. I am working with a utility to get >>> approval of a StorEdge / Solar Edge combination with Tesla batteries and >>> potentially export limitation. >>> >>> The utility has been asking for examples, and this is the first I can >>> bring them back. HECO territory? Sorry the system isn’t yours, but thanks >>> for helping pave the way for others! >>> >>> >>> >>> Any other examples of StorEdge with batteries or SolarEdge or StorEdge >>> using export limitation would be most helpful, meeting with them on Friday, >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Lloyd >>> >>> >>> >>> Lloyd Hoffstatter >>> >>> M.S. in Applied Solar Energy >>> >>> NABCEP Solar PV Installer #102503-23 >>> >>> >>> >>> Director >>> >>> Sunstruck Consulting >>> >>> Lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com >>> >>> 845-657-8132 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 11:43 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, Howie…their SE StorEdge. >>> >>> >>> >>> Not my install. Sunrun did it on Oahu. Did a big press whoopdeedo and >>> even got the governor of Hawaii and mayor of Honolulu to attend. >>> >>> >>> >>> marco >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] *On Behalf Of *Howie >>> Michaelson >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 4:55 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Marco, >>> I assume that is the StorEdge 7600? Is this your install? What was your >>> access to the StorEdge? >>> >>> Thanks for the photo, >>> Howie >>> Howie Michaelson >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> >>> Sun Catcher >>> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >>> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >>> 802-272-0004 >>> On Jun 13, 2016 9:29 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Provides an idea of size and scale. >>> > >>> > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, >>> two Tesla Powerwalls. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jun 14 18:57:21 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:57:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interconnection for multi-meter setups In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> Message-ID: <8545acda854aed3171ba3ab212ce18f3@mail.gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, We’re installing on a lot of multifamily buildings these days. Does anyone have a clue how to apply NEC 705.12 interconnection rules to the type of setup in the attached photo? In this case, we have a 200 A or 400 A main service disconnect feeding a 9-meter bank. The meter bank appears to be setup so that each meter is fed from the main disconnect by factory bussing. Each individual meter has a 70 A breaker feeding a remote sub panel. We want to install a 50 A solar breaker. We can interconnect at one of the existing meters or possibly install a new solar-service in one of the blank meter spots. Cheers, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: multifamilyexample1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 763008 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 23:42:29 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:42:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interconnection for multi-meter setups In-Reply-To: <8545acda854aed3171ba3ab212ce18f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <004201d1c5ee$c96c2090$5c4461b0$@com> <8545acda854aed3171ba3ab212ce18f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches We do allot of these ourselves and, it seems each is different but the last one was 18 units plus the common all got load side taps with fused 30 amp discos, we have also had line side but your panel is hard bused and a load side is the only way. There is a new breaker out but last I heard it is not UL approved I have left them messages with no response. Our utility requires disco's so it works out OK this way. the paperwork is crazy for this with all the little systems. Jerry On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 12:57 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > > > We’re installing on a lot of multifamily buildings these days. Does anyone > have a clue how to apply NEC 705.12 interconnection rules to the type of > setup in the attached photo? In this case, we have a 200 A or 400 A main > service disconnect feeding a 9-meter bank. The meter bank appears to be > setup so that each meter is fed from the main disconnect by factory > bussing. Each individual meter has a 70 A breaker feeding a remote sub > panel. We want to install a 50 A solar breaker. We can interconnect at one > of the existing meters or possibly install a new solar-service in one of > the blank meter spots. > > > > Cheers, > > > > August > > > > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jun 15 09:50:41 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 07:50:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup System Blues Message-ID: <19e5766a-fe74-7212-596e-46eb15fe70a9@solarray.com> Hi All; I'm in the process of finishing a grid tie with battery backup system, and besides the many pitfalls of this type of work, I destroyed a Tripp lite surge suppressor when I turned on the system. The system has a pair of the new Outback VFXR 3524 inverters wired in 120/240 series config. with Mate 3. I measured before and after, and the output was a steady 120vac (240 between them), frequency was 59.99 to 60.00 Hz. I also measured THD at about 2.5%, which is much better than the grid here ( about 5%) The system was in off grid mode, running several lights and other loads, when I switched on the breaker to the office. Immediately the slave inverter shut down with an AC short circuit error. Upon examining the computer equipment, I was greeted with the classic "smoke let out of the box" scent, and traced it to the Tripplite surge suppressor. This morning, I opened it up to examine, and one set of capacitors had blown. The Triplite (which I'm not that familiar) has several outlets each with an inductive coil and cap, each is labeled with a higher level of protection. The one that blew was labeled 120 dB ( or max) protection. So the question is: Did this just blow randomly, or is there something with the Outback power output that isn't right? I don't have an Oscilloscope, but I could better isolate the various harmonic Distortion to its separate components to see if maybe there is a harmonic spike somewhere the Tripplite didn't like? I didn't notice what was plugged into that outlet, but I will check today. The actual equipment is just the usual home collection of ink jet printers, and lap tops. The Tripp lite however looks pretty high end ( and old) and was immediately my suspect, as soon as I looked under the desk. The model is Tripp Lite Isobar Ultra 8, and is apparently still available. https://www.tripplite.com/isobar-8-outlet-surge-protector-12-ft-cord-3840-joules~ISOBAR8ULTRA/ This is venturing outside my normal area of expertise and into the Murky world of what's actually inside those electronic gizmos. As always, thanks in advance for all your sage advice, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Wed Jun 15 16:15:39 2016 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:15:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] service call reimbursement Message-ID: <03ab01d1c742$afb41a40$0f1c4ec0$@ecologicalsystems.biz> Just found out the hard way that Solectria (now Yaskawa?) doesn't do service call reimbursement or cover downtime of their product during the warranty period. They promised the world when I was in the inverter selection process but once they get the equipment out the door apparently down time and the site visits spent fixing their product is their customers problem. We're thinking about switching inverter brands, which inverters have the best reimbursement policies right now? My experience has been: SMA pay's $150 per inverter per truck roll(although it can be difficult collecting from them). ABB pays $150 (although it can be difficult to collecting from them) Schneider Electric pays $150 (they've been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) Fronius pays $250 (they’ve been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) That's my list right now and when it comes to reimbursing installers for problems with their equipment during the warranty period Fronius looks like the big winner right now with Schneider coming in a close second. My two cents, Sky Sims Ecological Systems From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jun 15 17:26:43 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 21:26:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] service call reimbursement In-Reply-To: <03ab01d1c742$afb41a40$0f1c4ec0$@ecologicalsystems.biz> References: <03ab01d1c742$afb41a40$0f1c4ec0$@ecologicalsystems.biz> Message-ID: Fronius has been wonderful and as you say, they are prompt. More importantly, they have a tech team one can reach quite quickly. Strongly recommend the company and its product line. Howard "Scot" Arey Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 Sent from Outlook Mobile On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:30 PM -0500, "Sky Sims" wrote: Just found out the hard way that Solectria (now Yaskawa?) doesn't do service call reimbursement or cover downtime of their product during the warranty period. They promised the world when I was in the inverter selection process but once they get the equipment out the door apparently down time and the site visits spent fixing their product is their customers problem. We're thinking about switching inverter brands, which inverters have the best reimbursement policies right now? My experience has been: SMA pay's $150 per inverter per truck roll(although it can be difficult collecting from them). ABB pays $150 (although it can be difficult to collecting from them) Schneider Electric pays $150 (they've been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) Fronius pays $250 (they’ve been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) That's my list right now and when it comes to reimbursing installers for problems with their equipment during the warranty period Fronius looks like the big winner right now with Schneider coming in a close second. My two cents, Sky Sims Ecological Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 15 19:19:04 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 16:19:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] service call reimbursement In-Reply-To: References: <03ab01d1c742$afb41a40$0f1c4ec0$@ecologicalsystems.biz> Message-ID: <205AB888-4FDB-4497-8F95-392C677133CE@millersolar.com> Fronius is like Sears tools. The warranty is good but you have to use it all the time. 500% failure rate on Fronius for us. We use only SMA. The TL-22 series has great features. So far it is reliable. SMAs grid tie tech support is good. Less impressed with island support. William Miller > On Jun 15, 2016, at 2:26 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > > Fronius has been wonderful and as you say, they are prompt. > > More importantly, they have a tech team one can reach quite quickly. > > Strongly recommend the company and its product line. > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Solar CenTex > 254-300-1228 > > Sent from Outlook Mobile > > > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:30 PM -0500, "Sky Sims" wrote: > >> Just found out the hard way that Solectria (now Yaskawa?) doesn't do service call reimbursement or cover downtime of their product during the warranty period. They promised the world when I was in the inverter selection process but once they get the equipment out the door apparently down time and the site visits spent fixing their product is their customers problem. >> We're thinking about switching inverter brands, which inverters have the best reimbursement policies right now? >> My experience has been: >> SMA pay's $150 per inverter per truck roll(although it can be difficult collecting from them). >> ABB pays $150 (although it can be difficult to collecting from them) >> Schneider Electric pays $150 (they've been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) >> Fronius pays $250 (they’ve been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) >> >> That's my list right now and when it comes to reimbursing installers for problems with their equipment during the warranty period Fronius looks like the big winner right now with Schneider coming in a close second. >> >> My two cents, >> Sky Sims >> Ecological Systems >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jun 15 20:20:35 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:20:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] service call reimbursement In-Reply-To: <205AB888-4FDB-4497-8F95-392C677133CE@millersolar.com> References: <03ab01d1c742$afb41a40$0f1c4ec0$@ecologicalsystems.biz> <205AB888-4FDB-4497-8F95-392C677133CE@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <001e01d1c764$e80c9210$b825b630$@burt@glbcc.com> Just when you thought it was safe… SMA has issued its last call for the TL-22 line and it has been discontinued for the new -40 model. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 7:19 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] service call reimbursement Fronius is like Sears tools. The warranty is good but you have to use it all the time. 500% failure rate on Fronius for us. We use only SMA. The TL-22 series has great features. So far it is reliable. SMAs grid tie tech support is good. Less impressed with island support. William Miller On Jun 15, 2016, at 2:26 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: Fronius has been wonderful and as you say, they are prompt. More importantly, they have a tech team one can reach quite quickly. Strongly recommend the company and its product line. Howard "Scot" Arey Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 Sent from Outlook Mobile On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:30 PM -0500, "Sky Sims" wrote: Just found out the hard way that Solectria (now Yaskawa?) doesn't do service call reimbursement or cover downtime of their product during the warranty period. They promised the world when I was in the inverter selection process but once they get the equipment out the door apparently down time and the site visits spent fixing their product is their customers problem. We're thinking about switching inverter brands, which inverters have the best reimbursement policies right now? My experience has been: SMA pay's $150 per inverter per truck roll(although it can be difficult collecting from them). ABB pays $150 (although it can be difficult to collecting from them) Schneider Electric pays $150 (they've been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) Fronius pays $250 (they’ve been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) That's my list right now and when it comes to reimbursing installers for problems with their equipment during the warranty period Fronius looks like the big winner right now with Schneider coming in a close second. My two cents, Sky Sims Ecological Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Thu Jun 16 08:22:22 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:22:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] service call reimbursement In-Reply-To: <205AB888-4FDB-4497-8F95-392C677133CE@millersolar.com> References: <03ab01d1c742$afb41a40$0f1c4ec0$@ecologicalsystems.biz> <205AB888-4FDB-4497-8F95-392C677133CE@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <64adcde620859d1df2543f3336155040.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> I am shocked anyone would refer to SMA's tech support (at least in the past year) as good. At least 50% of the time that I have to call SMA I end up on hold for 45 minutes before the automated system just hangs up on me. Most of the level one support staff are useless. If I try to leave a message I never get a return call. SMA service used to be good. Right now it is about the worst in our industry. Their saving grace is a product that works well (except the Arc Fault detection). Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Wed, June 15, 2016 7:19 pm, William Miller wrote: > Fronius is like Sears tools. The warranty is good but you have to use it > all the time. 500% failure rate on Fronius for us. We use only SMA. The > TL-22 series has great features. So far it is reliable. SMAs grid tie > tech support is good. Less impressed with island support. > > William Miller > > > >> On Jun 15, 2016, at 2:26 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: >> >> >> Fronius has been wonderful and as you say, they are prompt. >> >> >> More importantly, they have a tech team one can reach quite quickly. >> >> >> Strongly recommend the company and its product line. >> >> >> Howard "Scot" Arey >> Solar CenTex >> 254-300-1228 >> >> >> Sent from Outlook Mobile >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:30 PM -0500, "Sky Sims" >> wrote: >> >> >>> Just found out the hard way that Solectria (now Yaskawa?) doesn't do >>> service call reimbursement or cover downtime of their product during >>> the warranty period. They promised the world when I was in the >>> inverter selection process but once they get the equipment out the >>> door apparently down time and the site visits spent fixing their >>> product is their customers problem. We're thinking about switching >>> inverter brands, which inverters have the best reimbursement policies >>> right now? My experience has been: >>> SMA pay's $150 per inverter per truck roll(although it can be >>> difficult collecting from them). ABB pays $150 (although it can be >>> difficult to collecting from them) Schneider Electric pays $150 >>> (they've been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) >>> Fronius pays $250 (they’ve been really quick to pay anytime there is >>> an issue) >>> >>> That's my list right now and when it comes to reimbursing installers >>> for problems with their equipment during the warranty period Fronius >>> looks like the big winner right now with Schneider coming in a close >>> second. >>> >>> My two cents, >>> Sky Sims >>> Ecological Systems >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >>> t.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >> html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jun 16 09:57:47 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:57:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup System Blues In-Reply-To: <19e5766a-fe74-7212-596e-46eb15fe70a9@solarray.com> References: <19e5766a-fe74-7212-596e-46eb15fe70a9@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20160616135835.04559480C4@homiemail-a45.g.dreamhost.com> I had a Radian blow up a light bulb when first commissioned. It literally exploded the bulb. The bulb had worked fine with grid power minutes before. Testing the inverter voltage showed no problems. It worked fine after the initial issue. It remains one of those uncomfortable issues. At 09:50 AM 6/15/2016, you wrote: >Hi All; > >I'm in the process of finishing a grid tie with battery backup >system, and besides the many pitfalls of this type of work, I >destroyed a Tripp lite surge suppressor when I turned on the system. >The system has a pair of the new Outback VFXR 3524 inverters wired >in 120/240 series config. with Mate 3. >I measured before and after, and the output was a steady 120vac (240 >between them), frequency was 59.99 to 60.00 Hz. >I also measured THD at about 2.5%, which is much better than the >grid here ( about 5%) >The system was in off grid mode, running several lights and other >loads, when I switched on the breaker to the office. Immediately >the slave inverter shut down with an AC short circuit error. >Upon examining the computer equipment, I was greeted with the >classic "smoke let out of the box" scent, and traced it to the >Tripplite surge suppressor. This morning, I opened it up to >examine, and one set of capacitors had blown. The Triplite (which >I'm not that familiar) has several outlets each with an inductive >coil and cap, each is labeled with a higher level of protection. >The one that blew was labeled 120 dB ( or max) protection. >So the question is: Did this just blow randomly, or is there >something with the Outback power output that isn't right? >I don't have an Oscilloscope, but I could better isolate the various >harmonic Distortion to its separate components to see if maybe there >is a harmonic spike somewhere the Tripplite didn't like? >I didn't notice what was plugged into that outlet, but I will check >today. The actual equipment is just the usual home collection of >ink jet printers, and lap tops. The Tripp lite however looks pretty >high end ( and old) and was immediately my suspect, as soon as I >looked under the desk. The model is Tripp Lite Isobar Ultra 8, and >is apparently still available. >https://www.tripplite.com/isobar-8-outlet-surge-protector-12-ft-cord-3840-joules~ISOBAR8ULTRA/ >This is venturing outside my normal area of expertise and into the >Murky world of what's actually inside those electronic gizmos. > >As always, thanks in advance for all your sage advice, > >-- >R.Ray Walters >CTO, Solarray, Inc >Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >Licensed Master Electrician >Solar Design Engineer >303 505-8760 > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org From tump at swnl.net Thu Jun 16 10:18:21 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:18:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] service call reimbursement In-Reply-To: <64adcde620859d1df2543f3336155040.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <03ab01d1c742$afb41a40$0f1c4ec0$@ecologicalsystems.biz> <205AB888-4FDB-4497-8F95-392C677133CE@millersolar.com> <64adcde620859d1df2543f3336155040.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <6364193F-7156-48C6-9E4C-69118B44802D@swnl.net> I WILL SECOND THAT! SMA you out there….. oh yea thats right, NOT! I swear by offering such poor service, its almost that they are trying to leave the US market. Piss off the installers w/ NO support and no more market they have to “service”. I sold more SMA equipment then anything else but now I can NOT justify selling it w/ the LACK OF PROFESSIONAL help when its needed. Perhaps they still have a manu rep that can respond to this . TUMP > On Jun 16, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > > I am shocked anyone would refer to SMA's tech support (at least in the > past year) as good. At least 50% of the time that I have to call SMA I > end up on hold for 45 minutes before the automated system just hangs up on > me. Most of the level one support staff are useless. If I try to leave a > message I never get a return call. SMA service used to be good. Right > now it is about the worst in our industry. Their saving grace is a > product that works well (except the Arc Fault detection). > > Matt > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > > On Wed, June 15, 2016 7:19 pm, William Miller wrote: >> Fronius is like Sears tools. The warranty is good but you have to use it >> all the time. 500% failure rate on Fronius for us. We use only SMA. The >> TL-22 series has great features. So far it is reliable. SMAs grid tie >> tech support is good. Less impressed with island support. >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 2:26 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> Fronius has been wonderful and as you say, they are prompt. >>> >>> >>> More importantly, they have a tech team one can reach quite quickly. >>> >>> >>> Strongly recommend the company and its product line. >>> >>> >>> Howard "Scot" Arey >>> Solar CenTex >>> 254-300-1228 >>> >>> >>> Sent from Outlook Mobile >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:30 PM -0500, "Sky Sims" >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Just found out the hard way that Solectria (now Yaskawa?) doesn't do >>>> service call reimbursement or cover downtime of their product during >>>> the warranty period. They promised the world when I was in the >>>> inverter selection process but once they get the equipment out the >>>> door apparently down time and the site visits spent fixing their >>>> product is their customers problem. We're thinking about switching >>>> inverter brands, which inverters have the best reimbursement policies >>>> right now? My experience has been: >>>> SMA pay's $150 per inverter per truck roll(although it can be >>>> difficult collecting from them). ABB pays $150 (although it can be >>>> difficult to collecting from them) Schneider Electric pays $150 >>>> (they've been really quick to pay anytime there is an issue) >>>> Fronius pays $250 (they’ve been really quick to pay anytime there is >>>> an issue) >>>> >>>> That's my list right now and when it comes to reimbursing installers >>>> for problems with their equipment during the warranty period Fronius >>>> looks like the big winner right now with Schneider coming in a close >>>> second. >>>> >>>> My two cents, >>>> Sky Sims >>>> Ecological Systems >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >>>> t.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >>> html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht >> ml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 14:56:23 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:56:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> Message-ID: Marco, Are the two switch gear boxes integral to the installation. If so can you give me an idea of what their function/purpose is? On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Provides an idea of size and scale. > > [image: Tesla Battery system Aalto residence2. 6 may 2016] > > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, two > Tesla Powerwalls. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79750 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Jun 16 15:47:43 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:47:43 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> Message-ID: <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> Dunno exactly, Carl. Twas not I who installed it. marco Marco, Are the two switch gear boxes integral to the installation. If so can you give me an idea of what their function/purpose is? On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Provides an idea of size and scale. Tesla Battery system Aalto residence2. 6 may 2016 >From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, two Tesla Powerwalls. _____ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79750 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 08:35:32 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:35:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> Message-ID: I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these units are getting close to being appliances in the same vein as home audio, we wanted to have a clean finish so we made some mill work to complete the top of the unit to the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0 On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Dunno exactly, Carl. > > > > Twas not I who installed it. > > > > marco > > > > Marco, > > > > Are the two switch gear boxes integral to the installation. If so can you > give me an idea of what their function/purpose is? > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > Provides an idea of size and scale. > > [image: Tesla Battery system Aalto residence2. 6 may 2016] > > From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, two > Tesla Powerwalls. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79750 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john at renewableassociates.com Fri Jun 17 12:11:29 2016 From: john at renewableassociates.com (John Stimac) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:11:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V Surge Arrestors Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a 1000VDC surge arrestor? Cooper Bussmann has them for >$1000. Delta has them for $39. Thanks! -- John Stimac | Corvallis, OR Renewable Energy Associates, LLC 541-754-2001 Office -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Fri Jun 17 13:11:42 2016 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:11:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V Surge Arrestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dehn and Citel make them. Brian > On Jun 17, 2016, at 11:11 AM, John Stimac wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a 1000VDC surge arrestor? Cooper Bussmann has them for >$1000. Delta has them for $39. Thanks! > -- > John Stimac | Corvallis, OR > Renewable Energy Associates, LLC > 541-754-2001 Office > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jun 17 12:17:30 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Solar work) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:17:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V Surge Arrestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: MCG Dana Orzel 2087217003 "Follow the flow of your internal river, acknowledging the put-ons & put-outs." On Jun 17, 2016, at 10:11 AM, John Stimac wrote: Can anyone recommend a 1000VDC surge arrestor? Cooper Bussmann has them for >$1000. Delta has them for $39. Thanks! -- John Stimac | Corvallis, OR Renewable Energy Associates, LLC 541-754-2001 Office _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at renewableassociates.com Fri Jun 17 13:28:49 2016 From: john at renewableassociates.com (John Stimac) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:28:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V Surge Arrestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you know of any that mount to enclosures the way midnite solar surge suppressors mount to enclosures? -- John Stimac | Corvallis, OR Renewable Energy Associates, LLC 541-754-2001 Office On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 10:11 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > Dehn and Citel make them. > > Brian > > > On Jun 17, 2016, at 11:11 AM, John Stimac > wrote: > > > > Can anyone recommend a 1000VDC surge arrestor? Cooper Bussmann has them > for >$1000. Delta has them for $39. Thanks! > > -- > > John Stimac | Corvallis, OR > > Renewable Energy Associates, LLC > > 541-754-2001 Office > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 15:07:46 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:07:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> Message-ID: Chris, Nice finish on the Sonnen install. It looks fabulous. My understanding is the Eco 2-8 integrate the 4kW radian, and the 10-16 incorporates the 8kW radian. I assume generator support is fully supported On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these units are > getting close to being appliances in the same vein as home audio, we wanted > to have a clean finish so we made some mill work to complete the top of the > unit to the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits. > https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0 > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Dunno exactly, Carl. >> >> >> >> Twas not I who installed it. >> >> >> >> marco >> >> >> >> Marco, >> >> >> >> Are the two switch gear boxes integral to the installation. If so can >> you give me an idea of what their function/purpose is? >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >> Provides an idea of size and scale. >> >> [image: Tesla Battery system Aalto residence2. 6 may 2016] >> >> From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, >> two Tesla Powerwalls. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79750 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 15:09:42 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:09:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge 7600 and the Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> Message-ID: Yes, correct on both. The generator support is there, I did not use it. On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > Chris, > > Nice finish on the Sonnen install. It looks fabulous. My understanding > is the Eco 2-8 integrate the 4kW radian, and the 10-16 incorporates the 8kW > radian. I assume generator support is fully supported > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: > >> I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these units are >> getting close to being appliances in the same vein as home audio, we wanted >> to have a clean finish so we made some mill work to complete the top of the >> unit to the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits. >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0 >> >> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> Dunno exactly, Carl. >>> >>> >>> >>> Twas not I who installed it. >>> >>> >>> >>> marco >>> >>> >>> >>> Marco, >>> >>> >>> >>> Are the two switch gear boxes integral to the installation. If so can >>> you give me an idea of what their function/purpose is? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >>> wrote: >>> >>> Provides an idea of size and scale. >>> >>> [image: Tesla Battery system Aalto residence2. 6 may 2016] >>> >>> From left to right—disconnect, kWh meter, SolarEdge 7600, switch gear, >>> two Tesla Powerwalls. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79750 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Fri Jun 17 21:54:19 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:54:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> Message-ID: <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Sat Jun 18 00:06:35 2016 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:06:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: FYI that's a showroom unit with none of their internal wiring, and dummy inverter and batteries to keep it light. An actual unit has a tremendous amount of factory wiring between contractors, 200a auto transfer switch CT's and sensors along with a powder coated steel door in place of plexiglass. The Batteries are manufactured by Sony, they come in 48V 2kWh blocks that get paralleled together. > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER Vice President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com > On Jun 17, 2016, at 3:54 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > > Enclosed is a photo of what appears to be a test/lab Sonnen system published in the 01/30/2016 edition of "Power Magazine. > > Can plainly see the 8kW Outback Radian inverter and I assume four 12V Sonnen (Sony?) 8kWh Lithium-Ion batteries. Assume this is a "standard" 48V Radian inverter. > http://www.powermag.com/german-battery-firm-sonnen-moves-into-u-s-home-solar-storage-market/ > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > > Icarus Engineering LLC > > >> On 6/17/16 2:09 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >> Yes, correct on both. The generator support is there, I did not use it. >> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Carl Adams wrote: >>> Chris, >>> >>> Nice finish on the Sonnen install. It looks fabulous. My understanding is the Eco 2-8 integrate the 4kW radian, and the 10-16 incorporates the 8kW radian. I assume generator support is fully supported >>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >>>> I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these units are getting close to being appliances in the same vein as home audio, we wanted to have a clean finish so we made some mill work to complete the top of the unit to the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits. >>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 07:48:36 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 07:48:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Here's the internals of the one we installed. https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0ie2tuqe7y1x9d/2016-06-15%2011.01.43.jpg?dl=0 It's a Radian, the batteries are Sony, there's a PLC in the door controlling everything, and a Vera Z-Wave controller for the programmable outlets. The BMS is on the door, connected by the long cable you see at the bottom. It's not really long enough, which I complained about. The transfer switch is a Generac component, very reliable unit, rated at 200A. There is a DIN rail next to the inverter that holds all the internal wiring, metering, external connections. One thing I would advocate, never try to make any connections with this unit powered up. It is very tight in there and the risk of touching a live terminal is high. There is a 200A main breaker and a battery breaker, which is software controlled for powering down from the front panel. Startup requires holding in a DC breaker for the electronics for a few seconds then engaging the main battery breaker. The instructions says five seconds but I find it takes about 15. On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > Enclosed is a photo of what appears to be a test/lab Sonnen system > published in the 01/30/2016 edition of "Power Magazine. > > Can plainly see the 8kW Outback Radian inverter and I assume four 12V > Sonnen (Sony?) 8kWh Lithium-Ion batteries. Assume this is a "standard" 48V > Radian inverter. > > > http://www.powermag.com/german-battery-firm-sonnen-moves-into-u-s-home-solar-storage-market/ > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > > Icarus Engineering LLC > > > On 6/17/16 2:09 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > Yes, correct on both. The generator support is there, I did not use it. > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > >> Chris, >> >> Nice finish on the Sonnen install. It looks fabulous. My understanding >> is the Eco 2-8 integrate the 4kW radian, and the 10-16 incorporates the 8kW >> radian. I assume generator support is fully supported >> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Chris Mason < >> cometenergysystems at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these units are >>> getting close to being appliances in the same vein as home audio, we wanted >>> to have a clean finish so we made some mill work to complete the top of the >>> unit to the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits. >>> >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0 >>> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Jun 18 12:06:17 2016 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 09:06:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <25bb564d-0071-92b8-c3b6-20f152697158@berkeleysolar.com> What could be simpler? For some reason I can't help think of the Great Leap Forward in Chine where Mao had all the peasants gathering up all the iron objects and melting them down in small furnaces to help increase steel production. Of course none of the "steel" was any good. I guess it is because here I see a bunch of great industrial control equipment stuffed into a tiny box and dropped in someones basement. That's alot of stuff waiting to break or hang up or reset or something. I really have to wonder what the operating state of this piece of equipment will be in 3 years and if still operational, how many person-hours of support and maintenance will have been expended. Mark Frye On 6/18/2016 4:48 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > Here's the internals of the one we installed. > https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0ie2tuqe7y1x9d/2016-06-15%2011.01.43.jpg?dl=0 > It's a Radian, the batteries are Sony, there's a PLC in the door > controlling everything, and a Vera Z-Wave controller for the > programmable outlets. > The BMS is on the door, connected by the long cable you see at the > bottom. It's not really long enough, which I complained about. > The transfer switch is a Generac component, very reliable unit, rated > at 200A. > There is a DIN rail next to the inverter that holds all the internal > wiring, metering, external connections. > One thing I would advocate, never try to make any connections with > this unit powered up. It is very tight in there and the risk of > touching a live terminal is high. > There is a 200A main breaker and a battery breaker, which is software > controlled for powering down from the front panel. Startup requires > holding in a DC breaker for the electronics for a few seconds then > engaging the main battery breaker. The instructions says five seconds > but I find it takes about 15. > > > > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Gary Willett > > > wrote: > > Enclosed is a photo of what appears to be a test/lab Sonnen system > published in the 01/30/2016 edition of "Power Magazine. > > Can plainly see the 8kW Outback Radian inverter and I assume four > 12V Sonnen (Sony?) 8kWh Lithium-Ion batteries. Assume this is a > "standard" 48V Radian inverter. > > http://www.powermag.com/german-battery-firm-sonnen-moves-into-u-s-home-solar-storage-market/ > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > > Icarus Engineering LLC > > > > On 6/17/16 2:09 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >> Yes, correct on both. The generator support is there, I did not >> use it. >> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Carl Adams >> > wrote: >> >> Chris, >> >> Nice finish on the Sonnen install. It looks fabulous. My >> understanding is the Eco 2-8 integrate the 4kW radian, and >> the 10-16 incorporates the 8kW radian. I assume generator >> support is fully supported >> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Chris Mason >> > > wrote: >> >> I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these >> units are getting close to being appliances in the same >> vein as home audio, we wanted to have a clean finish so >> we made some mill work to complete the top of the unit to >> the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits. >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0 >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Sat Jun 18 14:13:46 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:13:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <5b8c2a80-c055-c965-0117-b221cf128963@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Jun 18 14:25:34 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:25:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.c om> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <20160618182535.9044510A10@che.dreamhost.com> Reading the link, I'm not sure what the following sentence refers to, the price of the system or the batteries. "The batteries are priced at $10,000 for the 4 kWh model up to $24,000 for the 16 kWh model." Literally it says that the cost is $10K for 4 KWh batteries. When compared to the $24K system cost for a system 4 times as big, it would seem that they are referring to whole system costs with the same equipment but more batteries. They wouldn't sell 4 times as many batteries for 2.4 times the cost (would they)? If it is 4 kWh of batteries alone for $10K, that wouldn't be much of a deal, even if they did last 10 years. We are doing far better than that with AGM, which should last 7 years. If it is for the entire system, it might start looking competitive. At 09:54 PM 6/17/2016, you wrote: >Enclosed is a photo of what appears to be a test/lab Sonnen system >published in the 01/30/2016 edition of "Power Magazine. > >Can plainly see the 8kW Outback Radian inverter and I assume four >12V Sonnen (Sony?) 8kWh Lithium-Ion batteries. Assume this is a >"standard" 48V Radian inverter. > >http://www.powermag.com/german-battery-firm-sonnen-moves-into-u-s-home-solar-storage-market/ > >Regards, > >Gary Willett > >Icarus Engineering LLC >[] > > >On 6/17/16 2:09 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >>Yes, correct on both. The generator support is there, I did not use it. >> >>On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Carl Adams >><swingjunkie at gmail.com> wrote: >>Chris, >> >>Nice finish on the Sonnen install. It looks fabulous. My >>understanding is the Eco 2-8 integrate the 4kW radian, and the >>10-16 incorporates the 8kW radian. I assume generator support is >>fully supported >> >>On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Chris Mason >><cometenergysystems at gmail.com> wrote: >>I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these units are >>getting close to being appliances in the same vein as home audio, >>we wanted to have a clean finish so we made some mill work to >>complete the top of the unit to the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits. >>https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0 > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 15:00:42 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 15:00:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: <20160618182535.9044510A10@che.dreamhost.com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> <20160618182535.9044510A10@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake, Pricing is for the package, for Eco 2-8 you get the Radian 4kW plus the kWh batteries specified. For the Eco 20 - 16 you get the Radian 8kE plus the kWh batteries specified. Here is a price sheet. Installer cost would be MSRP - 15% plus shipping. Reading the link, I'm not sure what the following sentence refers to, the price of the system or the batteries. *"The batteries are priced at $10,000 for the 4 kWh model up to $24,000 for the 16 kWh model." *Literally it says that the cost is $10K for 4 KWh batteries. When compared to the $24K system cost for a system 4 times as big, it would seem that they are referring to whole system costs with the same equipment but more batteries. They wouldn't sell 4 times as many batteries for 2.4 times the cost (would they)? If it is 4 kWh of batteries alone for $10K, that wouldn't be much of a deal, even if they did last 10 years. We are doing *far* better than that with AGM, which should last 7 years. If it is for the entire system, it might start looking competitive. At 09:54 PM 6/17/2016, you wrote: Enclosed is a photo of what appears to be a test/lab Sonnen system published in the 01/30/2016 edition of "Power Magazine. Can plainly see the 8kW Outback Radian inverter and I assume four 12V Sonnen (Sony?) 8kWh Lithium-Ion batteries. Assume this is a "standard" 48V Radian inverter. http://www.powermag.com/german-battery-firm-sonnen-moves-into-u-s-home-solar-storage-market/ Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Engineering LLC [image: []] On 6/17/16 2:09 PM, Chris Mason wrote: Yes, correct on both. The generator support is there, I did not use it. On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Carl Adams wrote: Chris, Nice finish on the Sonnen install. It looks fabulous. My understanding is the Eco 2-8 integrate the 4kW radian, and the 10-16 incorporates the 8kW radian. I assume generator support is fully supported On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Chris Mason < cometenergysystems at gmail.com> wrote: I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these units are getting close to being appliances in the same vein as home audio, we wanted to have a clean finish so we made some mill work to complete the top of the unit to the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 160202-Price-list-sonnenBatterie-eco_l.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 50296 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 20:10:04 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:10:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: <5b8c2a80-c055-c965-0117-b221cf128963@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5b8c2a80-c055-c965-0117-b221cf128963@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 2:13 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > > Were all of the components in the cabinet factory mounted and > inter-connected, or was it field assembled? > It came assembled. The only hard part was the external production metering. I would show you a photo except I am not very proud of it. You have to install the batteries and auxiliary cabinet in place. > How much does the finished product weigh? > About 500lbs before the batteries, we used our crane to lower it down the stairwell. Two people, a handcart, should be all you need. https://www.dropbox.com/s/y3wajbo1614f52v/2016-06-09%2014.46.39.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ceodgghk1zcpih2/2016-06-09%2014.47.01.jpg?dl=0 You put the batteries in after you get it in place. > Do you have any Sonnen and/or Outback URL(s) that provide installation > documentation and a high level single line electrical block diagram of > what's inside the box? > The owner's manual has all that. https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhntxsq9kpbr9ot/Ohio%20II%20Installation%20and%20Operation%20Manual%20V1.1.pdf?dl=0 > Thanks! Gary > On 6/18/16 6:48 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > Here's the internals of the one we installed. > https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0ie2tuqe7y1x9d/2016-06-15%2011.01.43.jpg?dl=0 > It's a Radian, the batteries are Sony, there's a PLC in the door > controlling everything, and a Vera Z-Wave controller for the programmable > outlets. > The BMS is on the door, connected by the long cable you see at the bottom. > It's not really long enough, which I complained about. > The transfer switch is a Generac component, very reliable unit, rated at > 200A. > There is a DIN rail next to the inverter that holds all the internal > wiring, metering, external connections. > One thing I would advocate, never try to make any connections with this > unit powered up. It is very tight in there and the risk of touching a live > terminal is high. > There is a 200A main breaker and a battery breaker, which is software > controlled for powering down from the front panel. Startup requires holding > in a DC breaker for the electronics for a few seconds then engaging the > main battery breaker. The instructions says five seconds but I find it > takes about 15. > > > > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Gary Willett < > Gary at icarussolarservices.com> wrote: > >> Enclosed is a photo of what appears to be a test/lab Sonnen system >> published in the 01/30/2016 edition of "Power Magazine. >> >> Can plainly see the 8kW Outback Radian inverter and I assume four 12V >> Sonnen (Sony?) 8kWh Lithium-Ion batteries. Assume this is a "standard" 48V >> Radian inverter. >> >> >> http://www.powermag.com/german-battery-firm-sonnen-moves-into-u-s-home-solar-storage-market/ >> >> Regards, >> >> Gary Willett >> >> Icarus Engineering LLC >> >> >> On 6/17/16 2:09 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >> >> Yes, correct on both. The generator support is there, I did not use it. >> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Carl Adams < >> swingjunkie at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Chris, >>> >>> Nice finish on the Sonnen install. It looks fabulous. My understanding >>> is the Eco 2-8 integrate the 4kW radian, and the 10-16 incorporates the 8kW >>> radian. I assume generator support is fully supported >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Chris Mason < >>> cometenergysystems at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these units are >>>> getting close to being appliances in the same vein as home audio, we wanted >>>> to have a clean finish so we made some mill work to complete the top of the >>>> unit to the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits. >>>> >>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0 >>>> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 20:12:02 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:12:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: <25bb564d-0071-92b8-c3b6-20f152697158@berkeleysolar.com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> <25bb564d-0071-92b8-c3b6-20f152697158@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > I really have to wonder what the operating state of this piece of > equipment will be in 3 years and if still operational, how many > person-hours of support and maintenance will have been expended. > There's nothing to stop anyone buying the same Sony battery system and a Radian 8048A based system and integrating them. I see some dealers in the UK selling them so they have to be available.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Sat Jun 18 23:30:15 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:30:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5b8c2a80-c055-c965-0117-b221cf128963@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <68517cdc-3c87-1e21-9b88-0657a745096e@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Jun 19 00:44:12 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:44:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: <25bb564d-0071-92b8-c3b6-20f152697158@berkeleysolar.com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> <25bb564d-0071-92b8-c3b6-20f152697158@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <8f1edb9d-c2db-5ca9-3aaf-943ffcaee394@psln.com> Mark, We humans many times make quite a stumble when we take a big new step (grid tied solar plus L-ion storage with the brains to manage all of it). I agree with you on one hand, we'll probably screw-up the first few iterations. On the other hand I feel pretty confident that my sensor laden, computer driven, signal processing, technology burdened truck will get me from point A to point B with few worries and for many miles. I think we'll figure this out as there is a very powerful incentive to do so. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/18/2016 9:06 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > What could be simpler? > > For some reason I can't help think of the Great Leap Forward in Chine > where Mao had all the peasants gathering up all the iron objects and > melting them down in small furnaces to help increase steel production. > Of course none of the "steel" was any good. > > I guess it is because here I see a bunch of great industrial control > equipment stuffed into a tiny box and dropped in someones basement. > That's alot of stuff waiting to break or hang up or reset or something. > > I really have to wonder what the operating state of this piece of > equipment will be in 3 years and if still operational, how many > person-hours of support and maintenance will have been expended. > > Mark Frye > > On 6/18/2016 4:48 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >> Here's the internals of the one we installed. >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0ie2tuqe7y1x9d/2016-06-15%2011.01.43.jpg?dl=0 >> It's a Radian, the batteries are Sony, there's a PLC in the door >> controlling everything, and a Vera Z-Wave controller for the >> programmable outlets. >> The BMS is on the door, connected by the long cable you see at the >> bottom. It's not really long enough, which I complained about. >> The transfer switch is a Generac component, very reliable unit, rated >> at 200A. >> There is a DIN rail next to the inverter that holds all the internal >> wiring, metering, external connections. >> One thing I would advocate, never try to make any connections with >> this unit powered up. It is very tight in there and the risk of >> touching a live terminal is high. >> There is a 200A main breaker and a battery breaker, which is software >> controlled for powering down from the front panel. Startup requires >> holding in a DC breaker for the electronics for a few seconds then >> engaging the main battery breaker. The instructions says five seconds >> but I find it takes about 15. >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 07:02:02 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:02:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter In-Reply-To: <68517cdc-3c87-1e21-9b88-0657a745096e@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <01e701d1c5da$e85286c0$b8f79440$@com> <003001d1c807$f47660a0$dd6321e0$@com> <7b05783f-5146-896f-5d77-0cbacdf9c87e@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5b8c2a80-c055-c965-0117-b221cf128963@IcarusSolarServices.com> <68517cdc-3c87-1e21-9b88-0657a745096e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > > Page 14: I am assuming that the Sonnen system is comprised of the > components and functionality encompassed in the box in the upper right side > of figure 2. And the Outback Radian is the inverter used for "F" - the > "Storage System" inverter? > Correct, although the consumption meter is also included. They supply the external metering which you have to install externally in the PV supply cabling. > Pages 14, 15, and 29: No info on PV array sizing is provided. Does the > Sonnen design assume that a totally separate grid-tied inverter system > already exists or must be installed if PV charging is desired? > The PV design depends on the consumption model, how much battery, but they do advocate no more than 8KW, which is what we are using on the installation. I think you could use about 4kW quite easily for a ECO16. It depends on the daily consumption of the home. > Page 15: The system is AC coupled. When in "Backup Mode" how does the > Sonnen BMS control charging from the external grid-tied PV inverter system > once its battery modules are fully charged and the house loads are low? > Does the Sonnen BMS handle this situation without disconnecting relays or > frequency-shift throttling? > Frequency shift. It will change the micro-grid frequency to 60.9hz > Page 15: Is the nomenclature in Figure 2 for the Utility Power Meter "G" > and the Consumption Meter "D" reversed? > G should be "Home". Not sure what they were doing there, I will let them know. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ash.Bowersock at rgsenergy.com Tue Jun 21 15:47:57 2016 From: Ash.Bowersock at rgsenergy.com (Ash Bowersock) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 19:47:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string Message-ID: Good day RE Wrench crew, I've got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175's I believe, and we would be looking at adding SolarWorld 280's more than likely. To me it is clear that this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don't want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280's to his 6 year old SunnyBoy inverter. Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a string inverter is "poor design practice"? The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) If you can't convince them, bore them to tears with the details. Ash Bowersock Senior System Designer [RGS Energy] 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 tel 303.222.8387 RGSEnergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 15:56:49 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:56:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Unless the VOC and VMP, are the same it will mainly only pull from the higher voltage side array, this as i have seen personally can cause damage to the JB bypass diodes on the modules due to prolong push on them because someone else did what you are asking about. He has another option and that is to buy a sma 3 tl-22 and sell off the 3000us or find some SW 17's Jerry On Jun 21, 2016 9:48 AM, "Ash Bowersock" wrote: > Good day RE Wrench crew, > > I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter > a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single > MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this > future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The > original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be > looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that > this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My > recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing > using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t > want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old > SunnyBoy inverter. > > Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a > string inverter is “poor design practice”? > > The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) > > If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. > > > > Ash Bowersock > Senior System Designer > > [image: RGS Energy] > > 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 > tel 303.222.8387 > > *RGSEnergy.com* > > *Confidentiality Note: *This e-mail message may contain confidential or > legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the > intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, > distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the > information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be > guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain > viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have > accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions > in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from > the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this > message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of the company. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Jun 21 16:00:13 2016 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:00:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An inverter with a single MPPT can only operate at a single DC voltage at any one time; with two different PV source circuits of different voltages, then the inverter will be unable to operate at the MPPT of the combined array (the operating voltage may be the actual Vmp of one string, but probably not both, and maybe not either!). Try to match the voltages if possible - I believe the 175s are 72 cell modules (i.e. 864 cells in series for the 12 module source circuit) and the 280s are 60 cell, so 14 or 15 of them in series would best match the voltage of the old mods (maybe 14 assuming there has been some voltage degradation of the older mods). Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Ash Bowersock wrote: > Good day RE Wrench crew, > > I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter > a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single > MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this > future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The > original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be > looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that > this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My > recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing > using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t > want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old > SunnyBoy inverter. > > Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a > string inverter is “poor design practice”? > > The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) > > If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. > > > > Ash Bowersock > Senior System Designer > > [image: RGS Energy] > > 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 > tel 303.222.8387 > > *RGSEnergy.com* > > *Confidentiality Note: *This e-mail message may contain confidential or > legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the > intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, > distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the > information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be > guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain > viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have > accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions > in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from > the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this > message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of the company. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Tue Jun 21 16:31:04 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:31:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ash, Are you sure that there are 12 of the SolarWorld 175’s on a single string? Those were 72-cell modules, and I would think that having 12 in series in CO would see open-circuit voltages over 600 VDC at least on some occasions. That’s 864 cells in series, with would be about equal to having 14.4 typical 60-cell modules in series. That sounds too high to me for CO. One option would be to reduce the number of 175’s to 10 (720 cells in series) and match them with 12 of the 60-cell modules (also 720 cells in series). The older modules are 5” cells, so their amperage would be lower, but as long as you get the voltage as close as possible it should be fine. Of course, this doesn’t account for degradation, so you may want to do some actual voltage measurements on the old modules. One thing though – since twelve 280W modules is about 3360W, and you have a 3kW inverter, there really isn’t enough room to add. The older Sunny Boys had a much narrower MPPT voltage range, so I doubt that you could use strings shorter than nine 60-cell modules. I don’t see how you would be able to add much to the old inverter anyway. Adding a second inverter system may be your only option, unless you can find some used 175’s. 18 or 20 of the 175’s, in two strings, should work fine on the 3kW Sunny Boy. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ash Bowersock *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:48 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string Good day RE Wrench crew, I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old SunnyBoy inverter. Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a string inverter is “poor design practice”? The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. Ash Bowersock Senior System Designer [image: RGS Energy] 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 tel 303.222.8387 *RGSEnergy.com* *Confidentiality Note: *This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 16:54:07 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 20:54:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2AC787EF-BC01-44EA-AB5A-F2223F0DC446@gmail.com> HI Ash, Backwoods solar sells 190 watt 72 cell modules that might give you some options. jay Peltz power > On Jun 21, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > > Hi Ash, > > Are you sure that there are 12 of the SolarWorld 175’s on a single string? > > Those were 72-cell modules, and I would think that having 12 in series in CO would see open-circuit voltages over 600 VDC at least on some occasions. That’s 864 cells in series, with would be about equal to having 14.4 typical 60-cell modules in series. That sounds too high to me for CO. > > One option would be to reduce the number of 175’s to 10 (720 cells in series) and match them with 12 of the 60-cell modules (also 720 cells in series). The older modules are 5” cells, so their amperage would be lower, but as long as you get the voltage as close as possible it should be fine. Of course, this doesn’t account for degradation, so you may want to do some actual voltage measurements on the old modules. > > One thing though – since twelve 280W modules is about 3360W, and you have a 3kW inverter, there really isn’t enough room to add. The older Sunny Boys had a much narrower MPPT voltage range, so I doubt that you could use strings shorter than nine 60-cell modules. I don’t see how you would be able to add much to the old inverter anyway. Adding a second inverter system may be your only option, unless you can find some used 175’s. 18 or 20 of the 175’s, in two strings, should work fine on the 3kW Sunny Boy. > > Brian Teitelbaum > AEE Solar > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Ash Bowersock > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:48 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string > > Good day RE Wrench crew, > I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old SunnyBoy inverter. > Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a string inverter is “poor design practice”? > The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) > If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. > > Ash Bowersock > Senior System Designer > > 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 > tel 303.222.8387 > RGSEnergy.com > Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jun 21 16:35:05 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:35:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <527891104a976c2cbcef8e9e467f6936@mail.gmail.com> Ash: With the climate in your region, 14 Solar World SW 280 modules in series will generate over 600 VDC. 14 SW280s would produce 3.92 kW STC. 14 280s cannot be added to this system. As a designer, you have to balance every aspect of a proposed project, including electrical, mechanical, financial, code compliance, AHJ approval, etc. etc. Time marches on and products change. You may get lucky and find a source for modules to fill out the capacity of this inverter or you may not. That is part of the challenge. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Brian Mehalic *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 1:00 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string An inverter with a single MPPT can only operate at a single DC voltage at any one time; with two different PV source circuits of different voltages, then the inverter will be unable to operate at the MPPT of the combined array (the operating voltage may be the actual Vmp of one string, but probably not both, and maybe not either!). Try to match the voltages if possible - I believe the 175s are 72 cell modules (i.e. 864 cells in series for the 12 module source circuit) and the 280s are 60 cell, so 14 or 15 of them in series would best match the voltage of the old mods (maybe 14 assuming there has been some voltage degradation of the older mods). Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Ash Bowersock wrote: Good day RE Wrench crew, I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old SunnyBoy inverter. Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a string inverter is “poor design practice”? The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. Ash Bowersock Senior System Designer [image: RGS Energy] 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 tel 303.222.8387 *RGSEnergy.com* *Confidentiality Note: *This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 18:13:52 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:13:52 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have 12 sharp 72 cell and that only 444 voc so that should not be an issue, yes l know he has SW but they are very close Jerry On Jun 21, 2016 10:31 AM, "Brian Teitelbaum" wrote: > Hi Ash, > > > > Are you sure that there are 12 of the SolarWorld 175’s on a single string? > > > > Those were 72-cell modules, and I would think that having 12 in series in > CO would see open-circuit voltages over 600 VDC at least on some occasions. > That’s 864 cells in series, with would be about equal to having 14.4 > typical 60-cell modules in series. That sounds too high to me for CO. > > > > One option would be to reduce the number of 175’s to 10 (720 cells in > series) and match them with 12 of the 60-cell modules (also 720 cells in > series). The older modules are 5” cells, so their amperage would be lower, > but as long as you get the voltage as close as possible it should be fine. > Of course, this doesn’t account for degradation, so you may want to do some > actual voltage measurements on the old modules. > > > > One thing though – since twelve 280W modules is about 3360W, and you have > a 3kW inverter, there really isn’t enough room to add. The older Sunny Boys > had a much narrower MPPT voltage range, so I doubt that you could use > strings shorter than nine 60-cell modules. I don’t see how you would be > able to add much to the old inverter anyway. Adding a second inverter > system may be your only option, unless you can find some used 175’s. 18 or > 20 of the 175’s, in two strings, should work fine on the 3kW Sunny Boy. > > > > Brian Teitelbaum > > AEE Solar > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ash Bowersock > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:48 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different > Modules on 2nd string > > > > Good day RE Wrench crew, > > I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter > a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single > MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this > future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The > original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be > looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that > this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My > recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing > using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t > want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old > SunnyBoy inverter. > > Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a > string inverter is “poor design practice”? > > The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) > > If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. > > > > Ash Bowersock > Senior System Designer > > [image: RGS Energy] > > 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 > tel 303.222.8387 > > *RGSEnergy.com* > > *Confidentiality Note: *This e-mail message may contain confidential or > legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the > intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, > distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the > information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be > guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain > viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have > accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions > in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from > the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this > message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of the company. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 18:51:33 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:51:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ash, I'd look at the Solar Edge 5000 inverter with P300 optimizers or the SMA 5000TL. Either way you end up with two strings, one old and one new. Less work with the SMA route. Better performance with the SE. With the SE route the owner could actually see the performance improvement on the older SW175 string. The owner can find a new home for the old inverter on EBAY Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Instsller On Jun 21, 2016 6:13 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > I have 12 sharp 72 cell and that only 444 voc so that should not be an > issue, yes l know he has SW but they are very close > Jerry > On Jun 21, 2016 10:31 AM, "Brian Teitelbaum" > wrote: > >> Hi Ash, >> >> >> >> Are you sure that there are 12 of the SolarWorld 175’s on a single string? >> >> >> >> Those were 72-cell modules, and I would think that having 12 in series in >> CO would see open-circuit voltages over 600 VDC at least on some occasions. >> That’s 864 cells in series, with would be about equal to having 14.4 >> typical 60-cell modules in series. That sounds too high to me for CO. >> >> >> >> One option would be to reduce the number of 175’s to 10 (720 cells in >> series) and match them with 12 of the 60-cell modules (also 720 cells in >> series). The older modules are 5” cells, so their amperage would be lower, >> but as long as you get the voltage as close as possible it should be fine. >> Of course, this doesn’t account for degradation, so you may want to do some >> actual voltage measurements on the old modules. >> >> >> >> One thing though – since twelve 280W modules is about 3360W, and you have >> a 3kW inverter, there really isn’t enough room to add. The older Sunny Boys >> had a much narrower MPPT voltage range, so I doubt that you could use >> strings shorter than nine 60-cell modules. I don’t see how you would be >> able to add much to the old inverter anyway. Adding a second inverter >> system may be your only option, unless you can find some used 175’s. 18 or >> 20 of the 175’s, in two strings, should work fine on the 3kW Sunny Boy. >> >> >> >> Brian Teitelbaum >> >> AEE Solar >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Ash Bowersock >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:48 PM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different >> Modules on 2nd string >> >> >> >> Good day RE Wrench crew, >> >> I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter >> a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single >> MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this >> future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The >> original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be >> looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that >> this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My >> recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing >> using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t >> want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old >> SunnyBoy inverter. >> >> Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a >> string inverter is “poor design practice”? >> >> The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) >> >> If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. >> >> >> >> Ash Bowersock >> Senior System Designer >> >> [image: RGS Energy] >> >> 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 >> tel 303.222.8387 >> >> *RGSEnergy.com* >> >> *Confidentiality Note: *This e-mail message may contain confidential or >> legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the >> intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, >> distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the >> information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be >> guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain >> viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have >> accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions >> in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from >> the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this >> message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not >> necessarily represent those of the company. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at westcoastsustainables.com Tue Jun 21 19:59:05 2016 From: jason at westcoastsustainables.com (Jason Andrade) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:59:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates Message-ID: <007301d1cc18$e4e3f0c0$aeabd240$@westcoastsustainables.com> Hi Wrenches, I am looking at the new rates for PG&E's time of use and was wondering what others in California are using Tou-A or Tou-B? it looks like if you have a West facing array Tou-B is going to be the better choice if you can control your usages. http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls Thanks for any input Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell Please follow the links below for great content! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6286 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2184 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image011.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4256 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Ash.Bowersock at rgsenergy.com Wed Jun 22 13:32:18 2016 From: Ash.Bowersock at rgsenergy.com (Ash Bowersock) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:32:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you very much for the feed-back Jerry. I had seen something similar before but wasn’t sure it was the by-pass diodes. Makes sense and gives me something to take to the client along with my recommendations. Ash Bowersock Senior System Designer [RGS Energy] 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 tel 303.222.8387 RGSEnergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 1:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string Wrenches Unless the VOC and VMP, are the same it will mainly only pull from the higher voltage side array, this as i have seen personally can cause damage to the JB bypass diodes on the modules due to prolong push on them because someone else did what you are asking about. He has another option and that is to buy a sma 3 tl-22 and sell off the 3000us or find some SW 17's Jerry On Jun 21, 2016 9:48 AM, "Ash Bowersock" > wrote: Good day RE Wrench crew, I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old SunnyBoy inverter. Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a string inverter is “poor design practice”? The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. Ash Bowersock Senior System Designer [Image removed by sender. RGS Energy] 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 tel 303.222.8387 RGSEnergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 695 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From Ash.Bowersock at rgsenergy.com Wed Jun 22 13:35:44 2016 From: Ash.Bowersock at rgsenergy.com (Ash Bowersock) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:35:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the good info Brian. I had tried to explain the single MPPT issue to the client, but probably didn’t use the right words and just made him mad because “the system was designed to accomidate an addition”… ughhhh. Ash Bowersock Senior System Designer [RGS Energy] 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 tel 303.222.8387 RGSEnergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Mehalic Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 2:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string An inverter with a single MPPT can only operate at a single DC voltage at any one time; with two different PV source circuits of different voltages, then the inverter will be unable to operate at the MPPT of the combined array (the operating voltage may be the actual Vmp of one string, but probably not both, and maybe not either!). Try to match the voltages if possible - I believe the 175s are 72 cell modules (i.e. 864 cells in series for the 12 module source circuit) and the 280s are 60 cell, so 14 or 15 of them in series would best match the voltage of the old mods (maybe 14 assuming there has been some voltage degradation of the older mods). Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Ash Bowersock > wrote: Good day RE Wrench crew, I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old SunnyBoy inverter. Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a string inverter is “poor design practice”? The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. Ash Bowersock Senior System Designer [Image removed by sender. RGS Energy] 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 tel 303.222.8387 RGSEnergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 695 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Wed Jun 22 13:37:24 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:37:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Building strings of modules with variable voltages? Message-ID: In the rough and tumble world of off grid system management for people who have been piecing together systems for years it is not uncommon for our company to come to a project and find many different types of solar modules. In most cases these modules are working fine and producing power but often have different output profiles. In an effort to upgrade systems and increase production I have often had the idea of building string of these different modules and feeding them into an MPPT controller. Can anyone out there explain if this would be a good idea or a bad one? Let say we have 4 x 100 watt 17.5 Vmp modules 2 x 245 watt 30.5 Vmp modules what would be the outcome of 2 strings of modules both with: 2 x 100 watt + 1 x 245 watt would this cause issues with the MPPT controller (say OB FM60) or the modules? Obviously you need to build strings that will fit the profile of the controller and not over to the series string rating and voltage tolerance of the modules but from a production standpoint where does this land? thanks for your advice Cheers- Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ash.Bowersock at rgsenergy.com Wed Jun 22 13:40:33 2016 From: Ash.Bowersock at rgsenergy.com (Ash Bowersock) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:40:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is very hard to tell what is on site, but as best I can put together the original is 12 SW 175’s on a SB3000 US. And at this point I am not sure how much liability for the original design/system I am willing to take on by trying to tie in with it. Honestly everthing I am hearing is pointing to us isolating the new system from his old and combining the 2 at a new PV AC Combiner panel prior to new POI. Thanks for the feed-back Brian. Ash Bowersock Senior System Designer [RGS Energy] 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 tel 303.222.8387 RGSEnergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Teitelbaum Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 2:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string Hi Ash, Are you sure that there are 12 of the SolarWorld 175’s on a single string? Those were 72-cell modules, and I would think that having 12 in series in CO would see open-circuit voltages over 600 VDC at least on some occasions. That’s 864 cells in series, with would be about equal to having 14.4 typical 60-cell modules in series. That sounds too high to me for CO. One option would be to reduce the number of 175’s to 10 (720 cells in series) and match them with 12 of the 60-cell modules (also 720 cells in series). The older modules are 5” cells, so their amperage would be lower, but as long as you get the voltage as close as possible it should be fine. Of course, this doesn’t account for degradation, so you may want to do some actual voltage measurements on the old modules. One thing though – since twelve 280W modules is about 3360W, and you have a 3kW inverter, there really isn’t enough room to add. The older Sunny Boys had a much narrower MPPT voltage range, so I doubt that you could use strings shorter than nine 60-cell modules. I don’t see how you would be able to add much to the old inverter anyway. Adding a second inverter system may be your only option, unless you can find some used 175’s. 18 or 20 of the 175’s, in two strings, should work fine on the 3kW Sunny Boy. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ash Bowersock Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:48 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string Good day RE Wrench crew, I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old SunnyBoy inverter. Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a string inverter is “poor design practice”? The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. Ash Bowersock Senior System Designer [Image removed by sender. RGS Energy] 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 tel 303.222.8387 RGSEnergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 695 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 02:17:56 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 00:17:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Building strings of modules with variable voltages? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan; rough-and-tumble world indeed here off the grid! My understanding is that Voc will still be additive, minus degradation over the years, but that the larger Pmax modules will be current limited for Imp by the smaller ones. So your 245w modules could only do 100w in the scenario you give. My solution has always been just stick with PWM controllers in these situations. On Jun 22, 2016 10:37 AM, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: > In the rough and tumble world of off grid system management for people who > have been piecing together systems for years it is not uncommon for our > company to come to a project and find many different types of solar > modules. In most cases these modules are working fine and producing power > but often have different output profiles. In an effort to upgrade systems > and increase production I have often had the idea of building string of > these different modules and feeding them into an MPPT controller. > > Can anyone out there explain if this would be a good idea or a bad one? > > Let say we have > 4 x 100 watt 17.5 Vmp modules > 2 x 245 watt 30.5 Vmp modules > > what would be the outcome of 2 strings of modules > both with: 2 x 100 watt + 1 x 245 watt > would this cause issues with the MPPT controller (say OB FM60) or the > modules? Obviously you need to build strings that will fit the profile of > the controller and not over to the series string rating and voltage > tolerance of the modules but from a production standpoint where does this > land? > > thanks for your advice > Cheers- > Daniel > > > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jun 23 02:24:24 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 23:24:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Building strings of modules with variable voltages? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99421B5C-9DA3-4476-942B-D3F748FDA958@sindelarsolar.com> Ok, does that mean I should dial, oh, two of the ten digits of your number? ;^} > On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:17 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Dan; rough-and-tumble world indeed here off the grid! My understanding is that Voc will still be additive, minus degradation over the years, but that the larger Pmax modules will be current limited for Imp by the smaller ones. So your 245w modules could only do 100w in the scenario you give. > > My solution has always been just stick with PWM controllers in these situations. > >> On Jun 22, 2016 10:37 AM, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: >> In the rough and tumble world of off grid system management for people who have been piecing together systems for years it is not uncommon for our company to come to a project and find many different types of solar modules. In most cases these modules are working fine and producing power but often have different output profiles. In an effort to upgrade systems and increase production I have often had the idea of building string of these different modules and feeding them into an MPPT controller. >> >> Can anyone out there explain if this would be a good idea or a bad one? >> >> Let say we have >> 4 x 100 watt 17.5 Vmp modules >> 2 x 245 watt 30.5 Vmp modules >> >> what would be the outcome of 2 strings of modules >> both with: 2 x 100 watt + 1 x 245 watt >> would this cause issues with the MPPT controller (say OB FM60) or the modules? Obviously you need to build strings that will fit the profile of the controller and not over to the series string rating and voltage tolerance of the modules but from a production standpoint where does this land? >> >> thanks for your advice >> Cheers- >> Daniel >> >> >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> CTO >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 02:56:08 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 00:56:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Building strings of modules with variable voltages? In-Reply-To: <99421B5C-9DA3-4476-942B-D3F748FDA958@sindelarsolar.com> References: <99421B5C-9DA3-4476-942B-D3F748FDA958@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I don't understand the reference. On Jun 22, 2016 11:24 PM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > Ok, does that mean I should dial, oh, two of the ten digits of your > number? ;^} > > On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:17 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Dan; rough-and-tumble world indeed here off the grid! My understanding is > that Voc will still be additive, minus degradation over the years, but that > the larger Pmax modules will be current limited for Imp by the smaller > ones. So your 245w modules could only do 100w in the scenario you give. > > My solution has always been just stick with PWM controllers in these > situations. > On Jun 22, 2016 10:37 AM, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: > >> In the rough and tumble world of off grid system management for people >> who have been piecing together systems for years it is not uncommon for our >> company to come to a project and find many different types of solar >> modules. In most cases these modules are working fine and producing power >> but often have different output profiles. In an effort to upgrade systems >> and increase production I have often had the idea of building string of >> these different modules and feeding them into an MPPT controller. >> >> Can anyone out there explain if this would be a good idea or a bad one? >> >> Let say we have >> 4 x 100 watt 17.5 Vmp modules >> 2 x 245 watt 30.5 Vmp modules >> >> what would be the outcome of 2 strings of modules >> both with: 2 x 100 watt + 1 x 245 watt >> would this cause issues with the MPPT controller (say OB FM60) or the >> modules? Obviously you need to build strings that will fit the profile of >> the controller and not over to the series string rating and voltage >> tolerance of the modules but from a production standpoint where does this >> land? >> >> thanks for your advice >> Cheers- >> Daniel >> >> >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> CTO >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 03:37:27 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:37:27 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Building strings of modules with variable voltages? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hate to say in public but l have paired up modules stacked simular to what you want to do, what l have seen is IMP slightly less but still way better then seperate so give it a try. I have done it for the same reason you are looking at. Jerry On Jun 22, 2016 7:37 AM, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: > In the rough and tumble world of off grid system management for people who > have been piecing together systems for years it is not uncommon for our > company to come to a project and find many different types of solar > modules. In most cases these modules are working fine and producing power > but often have different output profiles. In an effort to upgrade systems > and increase production I have often had the idea of building string of > these different modules and feeding them into an MPPT controller. > > Can anyone out there explain if this would be a good idea or a bad one? > > Let say we have > 4 x 100 watt 17.5 Vmp modules > 2 x 245 watt 30.5 Vmp modules > > what would be the outcome of 2 strings of modules > both with: 2 x 100 watt + 1 x 245 watt > would this cause issues with the MPPT controller (say OB FM60) or the > modules? Obviously you need to build strings that will fit the profile of > the controller and not over to the series string rating and voltage > tolerance of the modules but from a production standpoint where does this > land? > > thanks for your advice > Cheers- > Daniel > > > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jun 23 08:18:14 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:18:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Building strings of modules with variable voltages? In-Reply-To: References: <99421B5C-9DA3-4476-942B-D3F748FDA958@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <6B8B2338-457C-4F43-87C0-346DF67C1E18@sindelarsolar.com> Whoops, meant for another; posted here by mistake. Allan > On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Sorry, I don't understand the reference. > >> On Jun 22, 2016 11:24 PM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: >> Ok, does that mean I should dial, oh, two of the ten digits of your number? ;^} >> >>> On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:17 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> >>> Dan; rough-and-tumble world indeed here off the grid! My understanding is that Voc will still be additive, minus degradation over the years, but that the larger Pmax modules will be current limited for Imp by the smaller ones. So your 245w modules could only do 100w in the scenario you give. >>> >>> My solution has always been just stick with PWM controllers in these situations. >>> >>>> On Jun 22, 2016 10:37 AM, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: >>>> In the rough and tumble world of off grid system management for people who have been piecing together systems for years it is not uncommon for our company to come to a project and find many different types of solar modules. In most cases these modules are working fine and producing power but often have different output profiles. In an effort to upgrade systems and increase production I have often had the idea of building string of these different modules and feeding them into an MPPT controller. >>>> >>>> Can anyone out there explain if this would be a good idea or a bad one? >>>> >>>> Let say we have >>>> 4 x 100 watt 17.5 Vmp modules >>>> 2 x 245 watt 30.5 Vmp modules >>>> >>>> what would be the outcome of 2 strings of modules >>>> both with: 2 x 100 watt + 1 x 245 watt >>>> would this cause issues with the MPPT controller (say OB FM60) or the modules? Obviously you need to build strings that will fit the profile of the controller and not over to the series string rating and voltage tolerance of the modules but from a production standpoint where does this land? >>>> >>>> thanks for your advice >>>> Cheers- >>>> Daniel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Daniel Tittmann >>>> CTO >>>> Greenwired >>>> www.greenwired.com >>>> daniel at greenwired.com >>>> 707-923-2001 (office) >>>> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 08:52:27 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:52:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Building strings of modules with variable voltages? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26EAB45D-64F5-48E2-9F6C-4C2C94423E1C@gmail.com> Solmetric has some good screen shots of what happens when you combine these modules. My students just did a lab of combining modules (210W and 175W) in series and parallel and testing the PVA 600. In series V add and current drags way down to the lowest I value in the series string. The IV curve looks so screwy that a MPPT will have a very hard time locating the MPP. In parallel the IV curve looks much more stable. Parralel would be the best way to combine different modules. I can send some photos of the IV curves if you'd like. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 23, 2016, at 1:17 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Dan; rough-and-tumble world indeed here off the grid! My understanding is that Voc will still be additive, minus degradation over the years, but that the larger Pmax modules will be current limited for Imp by the smaller ones. So your 245w modules could only do 100w in the scenario you give. > > My solution has always been just stick with PWM controllers in these situations. > >> On Jun 22, 2016 10:37 AM, "Daniel Tittmann" wrote: >> In the rough and tumble world of off grid system management for people who have been piecing together systems for years it is not uncommon for our company to come to a project and find many different types of solar modules. In most cases these modules are working fine and producing power but often have different output profiles. In an effort to upgrade systems and increase production I have often had the idea of building string of these different modules and feeding them into an MPPT controller. >> >> Can anyone out there explain if this would be a good idea or a bad one? >> >> Let say we have >> 4 x 100 watt 17.5 Vmp modules >> 2 x 245 watt 30.5 Vmp modules >> >> what would be the outcome of 2 strings of modules >> both with: 2 x 100 watt + 1 x 245 watt >> would this cause issues with the MPPT controller (say OB FM60) or the modules? Obviously you need to build strings that will fit the profile of the controller and not over to the series string rating and voltage tolerance of the modules but from a production standpoint where does this land? >> >> thanks for your advice >> Cheers- >> Daniel >> >> >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> CTO >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 09:04:35 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 08:04:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Building strings of modules with variable voltages? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Attached are two photos. One shows the IV curve of two dissimilar modules in series and the other shoes them in parallel. On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > In the rough and tumble world of off grid system management for people who > have been piecing together systems for years it is not uncommon for our > company to come to a project and find many different types of solar > modules. In most cases these modules are working fine and producing power > but often have different output profiles. In an effort to upgrade systems > and increase production I have often had the idea of building string of > these different modules and feeding them into an MPPT controller. > > Can anyone out there explain if this would be a good idea or a bad one? > > Let say we have > 4 x 100 watt 17.5 Vmp modules > 2 x 245 watt 30.5 Vmp modules > > what would be the outcome of 2 strings of modules > both with: 2 x 100 watt + 1 x 245 watt > would this cause issues with the MPPT controller (say OB FM60) or the > modules? Obviously you need to build strings that will fit the profile of > the controller and not over to the series string rating and voltage > tolerance of the modules but from a production standpoint where does this > land? > > thanks for your advice > Cheers- > Daniel > > > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Jesse Dahl RE-Power LLC NABCEP - PV Installation Professional NABCEP - PV Technical Sales MREA - PV Site Assessor Solar PV Instructor - Hibbing Community College IBEW Local 292 218-235-0167 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mike.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100258 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mikeparallel.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 102407 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jun 23 11:15:50 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 11:15:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160623151555.337A21055F@che.dreamhost.com> Hi Ash, Long time no see. I would consider replacing the entire array. The new high wattage, low cost modules would allow you to match the existing inverter's voltage with new modules at a surprisingly reasonable price. The customer may be amazed at how cheap they are, especially since he bought is array 6 years ago. Especially if you can use existing racking, this could be an easy solution. Maybe he can sell the old modules on Ebay. Cheers, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 03:47 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: >Content-Language: en-US >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > >boundary="_000_SN2PR15MB1055E2DD4ED48EF2BB51C1C8FC2B0SN2PR15MB1055namp_" > >Good day RE Wrench crew, >I've got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy >inverter a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I >assume it is single MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the >hopes of using it for this future expansion (and unfortunately his >installer went along with it). The original modules were 12 >SolarWorld 175's I believe, and we would be looking at adding >SolarWorld 280's more than likely. To me it is clear that this is >poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My >recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his >existing using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly >why we don't want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280's >to his 6 year old SunnyBoy inverter. >Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a >string inverter is "poor design practice"? >The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) >If you can't convince them, bore them to tears with the details. > >Ash Bowersock >Senior System Designer > >RGS Energy > >833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 >tel 303.222.8387 >RGSEnergy.com >Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential >or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use >of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, >dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in >reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not >secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be >intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates >with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy >is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and >denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of >e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message >and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not >necessarily represent those of the company. > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Jun 23 16:41:46 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:41:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buried Conductors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e501d1cd8f$a9cd5a80$fd680f80$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel, and upgrading to PV and Smart Energy Storage. The house was broken down to floor joists, open studded walls and open roof rafters. The client wanted a 8 kW/16 kWh Smart Energy Storage system and a 10 kW-ac PV system. The Main panel, the Critical Load sub-panel, the Energy Storage system and the PV inverters will all be either in a detached garage or hung on the west facing exterior wall of the detached garage. We have been given a number of 1-1/2” PVC conduits, buried a minimum of 18”, that run between the main house and the detached garage, so we have to convey 2/3rds of the PV source circuits and all of the critical load branch circuits using this conduit. This raises a number of questions/confirmations: (1) We cannot mix PV source circuits and critical load branch circuits in the same conduit. Pretty obvious. (2) What ambient temperature should I use in my ampacity calculations? I assumed something less than 30°C, such as 20°C. But I read somewhere that one has to be careful when the conduit exists the ground, in that one has only 18” of conduit above ground before one has to use the full maximum ambient temperature which in our case is 45°. The argument says that for the first 18”, the portion of the copper conductors in the ground will cool the portion of the conductors above ground via thermal conduction. I can’t find any citation to confirm this argument. Does anyone have any sources of information on the subject? Even if there is a sound engineering basis for the argument, soon after exiting the ground, one would need a vault to splice in a higher ampacity conductors and continue on to either the critical load sub-panel or the inverters, you have to calculate the ampacity at 45°C. These buried conduit runs are approximately 50 feet in length. (3) One end of the conduit run is supposed to come out of the ground inside the building envelope, so we could derate using 30°C or so for air conditioned space. We cannot count on the garage being air conditioned however. (4) Can we use THHN as opposed to THWN-2? I am assuming the forces of nature or human stupidity will eventually cause the PVC to crack and the extra expense of THWN-2 (or another wet rated 90°C conductor) will be a better choice. This job is the same one where the electrician claimed that neutrals on a 120V branch circuit don’t count as current carry conductors in conduit for the purposes of de-rating ampacity. He’s gone, but his replacement may not be any more careful in his ampacity calculations. Faithfully yours, Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. NABCEP™ Solar Professional #031806-26 President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 18:44:53 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 15:44:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A3FCBA-0805-4D35-824E-EFE09FABE95D@gmail.com> HI Ash, You don’t give a lot of data to the system, tilt, orientation, probably its 12 in series ( probably?), location, or room available for added modules, how difficult to add new wires or are the wires off the roof large enough to handle another string of modules, does the inverter have good ventilation if its going to be worked hard. So depending on answers to all that, I might consider just adding 12 more 190 watt 72 cell/44voc modules in parallel. I’d check with SMA to see if that is going to be any issue with the inverter as that is up around 4000 watts. or you could remove 2 modules and then make 2 sets of 10 modules, which would be around 3550 watts. I’m just not a big fan of removing already installed working parts. jay Peltz power > On Jun 21, 2016, at 12:47 PM, Ash Bowersock wrote: > > Good day RE Wrench crew, > I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter a number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old SunnyBoy inverter. > Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a string inverter is “poor design practice”? > The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;) > If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details. > > Ash Bowersock > Senior System Designer > > 833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027 > tel 303.222.8387 > RGSEnergy.com > Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Jun 24 08:22:17 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:22:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buried Conductors In-Reply-To: <576cb177.8f67620a.62f09.ffffe0edSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <576cb177.8f67620a.62f09.ffffe0edSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter, For your #2, see 310.15(A)(2) exception. Where you have two different ampacities, you can use the higher one as long as the distance of the lower ampacity is less than 10' or 10% of total conductor length (whichever is less). So for 50' of conductor, as long as the above ground conductor length is <5' you can go with the 30 degree C ambient temperature. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel, and > upgrading to PV and Smart Energy Storage. The house was broken down to > floor joists, open studded walls and open roof rafters. > > > > The client wanted a 8 kW/16 kWh Smart Energy Storage system and a 10 kW-ac > PV system. The Main panel, the Critical Load sub-panel, the Energy Storage > system and the PV inverters will all be either in a detached garage or hung > on the west facing exterior wall of the detached garage. > > > > We have been given a number of 1-1/2” PVC conduits, buried a minimum of > 18”, that run between the main house and the detached garage, so we have > to convey 2/3rds of the PV source circuits and all of the critical load > branch circuits using this conduit. This raises a number of > questions/confirmations: > > > > (1) We cannot mix PV source circuits and critical load branch circuits > in the same conduit. Pretty obvious. > > (2) What ambient temperature should I use in my ampacity calculations? > I assumed something less than 30°C, such as 20°C. But I read somewhere that > one has to be careful when the conduit exists the ground, in that one has > only 18” of conduit above ground before one has to use the full maximum > ambient temperature which in our case is 45°. The argument says that for > the first 18”, the portion of the copper conductors in the ground will cool > the portion of the conductors above ground via thermal conduction. I can’t > find any citation to confirm this argument. Does anyone have any sources of > information on the subject? Even if there is a sound engineering basis for > the argument, soon after exiting the ground, one would need a vault to > splice in a higher ampacity conductors and continue on to either the > critical load sub-panel or the inverters, you have to calculate the > ampacity at 45°C. These buried conduit runs are approximately 50 feet in > length. > > (3) One end of the conduit run is supposed to come out of the ground > inside the building envelope, so we could derate using 30°C or so for air > conditioned space. We cannot count on the garage being air conditioned > however. > > (4) Can we use THHN as opposed to THWN-2? I am assuming the forces of > nature or human stupidity will eventually cause the PVC to crack and the > extra expense of THWN-2 (or another wet rated 90°C conductor) will be a > better choice. > > > > This job is the same one where the electrician claimed that neutrals on a > 120V branch circuit don’t count as current carry conductors in conduit for > the purposes of de-rating ampacity. He’s gone, but his replacement may not > be any more careful in his ampacity calculations. > > > > Faithfully yours, > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > NABCEP™ Solar Professional #031806-26 > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:00:49 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:00:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buried Conductors In-Reply-To: <576cb176.4551620a.1cdeb.ffffcf6dSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <576cb176.4551620a.1cdeb.ffffcf6dSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0E80A925-0F86-4F99-A289-F6AA134C0BD2@gmail.com> Not sure about the rest but under ground conductors are considered a wet location. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:41 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: > > I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel, and upgrading to PV and Smart Energy Storage. The house was broken down to floor joists, open studded walls and open roof rafters. > > The client wanted a 8 kW/16 kWh Smart Energy Storage system and a 10 kW-ac PV system. The Main panel, the Critical Load sub-panel, the Energy Storage system and the PV inverters will all be either in a detached garage or hung on the west facing exterior wall of the detached garage. > > We have been given a number of 1-1/2” PVC conduits, buried a minimum of 18”, that run between the main house and the detached garage, so we have to convey 2/3rds of the PV source circuits and all of the critical load branch circuits using this conduit. This raises a number of questions/confirmations: > > (1) We cannot mix PV source circuits and critical load branch circuits in the same conduit. Pretty obvious. > > (2) What ambient temperature should I use in my ampacity calculations? I assumed something less than 30°C, such as 20°C. But I read somewhere that one has to be careful when the conduit exists the ground, in that one has only 18” of conduit above ground before one has to use the full maximum ambient temperature which in our case is 45°. The argument says that for the first 18”, the portion of the copper conductors in the ground will cool the portion of the conductors above ground via thermal conduction. I can’t find any citation to confirm this argument. Does anyone have any sources of information on the subject? Even if there is a sound engineering basis for the argument, soon after exiting the ground, one would need a vault to splice in a higher ampacity conductors and continue on to either the critical load sub-panel or the inverters, you have to calculate the ampacity at 45°C. These buried conduit runs are approximately 50 feet in length. > > (3) One end of the conduit run is supposed to come out of the ground inside the building envelope, so we could derate using 30°C or so for air conditioned space. We cannot count on the garage being air conditioned however. > > (4) Can we use THHN as opposed to THWN-2? I am assuming the forces of nature or human stupidity will eventually cause the PVC to crack and the extra expense of THWN-2 (or another wet rated 90°C conductor) will be a better choice. > > This job is the same one where the electrician claimed that neutrals on a 120V branch circuit don’t count as current carry conductors in conduit for the purposes of de-rating ampacity. He’s gone, but his replacement may not be any more careful in his ampacity calculations. > > Faithfully yours, > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > NABCEP™ Solar Professional #031806-26 > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 22:35:32 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:35:32 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Building strings of modules with variable voltages? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches One thing to consider is that a good charge controller will cost more then a few modules so in most cases now with the current pricing is to remove and replace with new, I would like to keep the old ones in play with what ever is controlling them but build the new array, stack them up with a FM 80 and forget about it. if you customer is looking long term, I bet that they would understand and go for it. Jerry On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote: > Attached are two photos. One shows the IV curve of two dissimilar modules > in series and the other shoes them in parallel. > > On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Daniel Tittmann > wrote: > >> In the rough and tumble world of off grid system management for people >> who have been piecing together systems for years it is not uncommon for our >> company to come to a project and find many different types of solar >> modules. In most cases these modules are working fine and producing power >> but often have different output profiles. In an effort to upgrade systems >> and increase production I have often had the idea of building string of >> these different modules and feeding them into an MPPT controller. >> >> Can anyone out there explain if this would be a good idea or a bad one? >> >> Let say we have >> 4 x 100 watt 17.5 Vmp modules >> 2 x 245 watt 30.5 Vmp modules >> >> what would be the outcome of 2 strings of modules >> both with: 2 x 100 watt + 1 x 245 watt >> would this cause issues with the MPPT controller (say OB FM60) or the >> modules? Obviously you need to build strings that will fit the profile of >> the controller and not over to the series string rating and voltage >> tolerance of the modules but from a production standpoint where does this >> land? >> >> thanks for your advice >> Cheers- >> Daniel >> >> >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> CTO >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Jesse Dahl > > RE-Power LLC > NABCEP - PV Installation Professional > NABCEP - PV Technical Sales > MREA - PV Site Assessor > Solar PV Instructor - Hibbing Community College > IBEW Local 292 > 218-235-0167 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 10:53:40 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:53:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates In-Reply-To: <007301d1cc18$e4e3f0c0$aeabd240$@westcoastsustainables.com> References: <007301d1cc18$e4e3f0c0$aeabd240$@westcoastsustainables.com> Message-ID: HI Jason, I’ve wondered this myself. I think the only way to understand it is with a really good program but you’ll also need a lot of data about energy usage and yes roof orientation etc. And from your excel file it looks like the TOUA/B have changed as they have eliminated the much lower off peak. And I think what it does do but again I’d like to see it done on a good program is that it eliminates anyone wanting to do a small system as a percentage of your load. As it puts the rates up so high, I would like it would only make sense if you can produce most via PV. I”m curious as well as to what others think? jay peltz power > On Jun 21, 2016, at 4:59 PM, Jason Andrade wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I am looking at the new rates for PG&E’s time of use and was wondering what others in California are using Tou-A or Tou-B? it looks like if you have a West facing array Tou-B is going to be the better choice if you can control your usages. > http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls > Thanks for any input > > > > Jason Andrade > C-46# 974647 > (530) 410-4745 Cell > Please follow the links > below for great content! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 08:53:07 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 06:53:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates In-Reply-To: References: <007301d1cc18$e4e3f0c0$aeabd240$@westcoastsustainables.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason & Jay, You may try https://www.energytoolbase.com/ They have a modeling program that can be used to optimize solar in a TOU setting (all types of rate structures). They are linked up with a database that holds 15 minute metering data for certain participating utility customers so you can create super accurate load profiles for your clients. I am just getting familiar with this program so I don't have direct experience yet but its worth a giving the free trial a shot. On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:53 AM, jay wrote: > HI Jason, > > I’ve wondered this myself. > > I think the only way to understand it is with a really good program but > you’ll also need a lot of data about energy usage and yes roof orientation > etc. > > And from your excel file it looks like the TOUA/B have changed as they > have eliminated the much lower off peak. > > And I think what it does do but again I’d like to see it done on a good > program is that it eliminates anyone wanting to do a small system as a > percentage of your load. > As it puts the rates up so high, I would like it would only make sense if > you can produce most via PV. > > I”m curious as well as to what others think? > > jay > peltz power > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 4:59 PM, Jason Andrade < > jason at westcoastsustainables.com> wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I am looking at the new rates for PG&E’s time of use and was wondering > what others in California are using Tou-A or Tou-B? it looks like if you > have a West facing array Tou-B is going to be the better choice if you can > control your usages. > http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls > Thanks for any input > > > > Jason Andrade > C-46# 974647 > (530) 410-4745 Cell > Please follow the links > below for great content! > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 27 09:57:35 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 06:57:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates In-Reply-To: <007301d1cc18$e4e3f0c0$aeabd240$@westcoastsustainables.com> References: <007301d1cc18$e4e3f0c0$aeabd240$@westcoastsustainables.com> Message-ID: <5230bd110aaae0bcb70c4102299f35d3@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jason, The mandatory switch to a TOU rate along with NEM 2.0 forces all of us working with grid tied systems in CA to thoroughly rethink our game plan! We have been using Energy Toolbase (as Mac mentioned) to model proposals to accurately estimate post-solar bills under one of these new rates schedules. TOU-A in my experience tends to be a little better for folks in the “normal” monthly consumption range, say below 800-1000 kWh/month. High energy users will probably be better off going TOU-B. For those with electric vehicles, EV-A is a really good option. That said, we’re still wrapping our heads around the best rates and design strategies. The peak rates on the TOU schedules are getting later and later, so west facing arrays are definitely a plus. Cheers, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Jason Andrade *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 4:59 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates Hi Wrenches, I am looking at the new rates for PG&E’s time of use and was wondering what others in California are using Tou-A or Tou-B? it looks like if you have a West facing array Tou-B is going to be the better choice if you can control your usages. http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls Thanks for any input Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell Please follow the links below for great content! 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Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3336 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jun 27 12:14:18 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 09:14:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates In-Reply-To: <5230bd110aaae0bcb70c4102299f35d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <007301d1cc18$e4e3f0c0$aeabd240$@westcoastsustainables.com> <5230bd110aaae0bcb70c4102299f35d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this new mandatory assignment to TOU=20 with PG&E start when NEM2.0 starts. I think we can keep using E1 up to=20 the change...which is soon. Some sites just don't have good afternoon=20 options here in the Sierras (mountains, trees, etc) Do we start=20 declining jobs that have excellent SE facing options? Please enlighten me. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/27/2016 6:57 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > The mandatory switch to a TOU rate along with NEM 2.0 forces all of us=20 > working with grid tied systems in CA to thoroughly rethink our game=20 > plan! We have been using Energy Toolbase (as Mac mentioned) to model=20 > proposals to accurately estimate post-solar bills under one of these=20 > new rates schedules. TOU-A in my experience tends to be a little=20 > better for folks in the =E2=80=9Cnormal=E2=80=9D monthly consumption rang= e, say below=20 > 800-1000 kWh/month. High energy users will probably be better off=20 > going TOU-B. For those with electric vehicles, EV-A is a really good=20 > option. That said, we=E2=80=99re still wrapping our heads around the best= =20 > rates and design strategies. The peak rates on the TOU schedules are=20 > getting later and later, so west facing arrays are definitely a plus. > > Cheers, > > August > > Luminalt > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Jason Andrade > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 4:59 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates > > Hi Wrenches, > > I am looking at the new rates for PG&E=E2=80=99s time of use and was wond= ering=20 > what others in California are using Tou-A or Tou-B? it looks like if=20 > you have a West facing array Tou-B is going to be the better choice if=20 > you can control your usages. > > http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls > > Thanks for any input > > **** > > Jason Andrade > > C-46# 974647 > > (530) 410-4745 Cell > > Please follow the links > > below for great content! > > wcs-email-large > > youtube-email=20 > fb-email=20 > > > ademail > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 3336 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 27 12:54:32 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 09:54:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates In-Reply-To: References: <007301d1cc18$e4e3f0c0$aeabd240$@westcoastsustainables.com> <5230bd110aaae0bcb70c4102299f35d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a8b697c8ff599f6b1523274892238f3@mail.gmail.com> Bill, Yes, my understanding is that mandatory TOU doesn’t start until NEM 2.0 rolls out. For the sites that we’ve analyzed with TOU-A and TOU-B, it is definitely better to have a South to West orientation, but other orientations don’t necessarily kill the deal. The NEM 2.0 “haircut” is only part of how the utilities are trying to recoup their costs. Rate schedules are not nearly as solar friendly as they used to be! I wish we could have E-7 again. All this said, bill analysis is complicated and there is no one-size-all solution. That’s why having a good bill analysis and simulation tool is key. -August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Monday, June 27, 2016 9:14 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this new mandatory assignment to TOU with PG&E start when NEM2.0 starts. I think we can keep using E1 up to the change...which is soon. Some sites just don't have good afternoon options here in the Sierras (mountains, trees, etc) Do we start declining jobs that have excellent SE facing options? Please enlighten me. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/27/2016 6:57 AM, August Goers wrote: Hi Jason, The mandatory switch to a TOU rate along with NEM 2.0 forces all of us working with grid tied systems in CA to thoroughly rethink our game plan! We have been using Energy Toolbase (as Mac mentioned) to model proposals to accurately estimate post-solar bills under one of these new rates schedules. TOU-A in my experience tends to be a little better for folks in the “normal” monthly consumption range, say below 800-1000 kWh/month. High energy users will probably be better off going TOU-B. For those with electric vehicles, EV-A is a really good option. That said, we’re still wrapping our heads around the best rates and design strategies. The peak rates on the TOU schedules are getting later and later, so west facing arrays are definitely a plus. Cheers, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Jason Andrade *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 4:59 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates Hi Wrenches, I am looking at the new rates for PG&E’s time of use and was wondering what others in California are using Tou-A or Tou-B? it looks like if you have a West facing array Tou-B is going to be the better choice if you can control your usages. http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls Thanks for any input Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell Please follow the links below for great content! [image: wcs-email-large] [image: youtube-email] [image: fb-email] [image: ademail] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4926 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1456 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1847 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3336 bytes Desc: not available URL: From philboutelle at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 14:11:44 2016 From: philboutelle at gmail.com (Philip Boutelle) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:11:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates In-Reply-To: <8a8b697c8ff599f6b1523274892238f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <007301d1cc18$e4e3f0c0$aeabd240$@westcoastsustainables.com> <5230bd110aaae0bcb70c4102299f35d3@mail.gmail.com> <8a8b697c8ff599f6b1523274892238f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I use NREL's SAM software for TOU analysis and rate comparisons. Free, but you don't get the nice proposals that come with EnergyToolbase. Also not as helpful without a customer load profile to use as the baseline. https://sam.nrel.gov/ -Phil Boutelle, PE On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 9:54 AM, August Goers wrote: > Bill, > > > > Yes, my understanding is that mandatory TOU doesn’t start until NEM 2.0 > rolls out. For the sites that we’ve analyzed with TOU-A and TOU-B, it is > definitely better to have a South to West orientation, but other > orientations don’t necessarily kill the deal. The NEM 2.0 “haircut” is only > part of how the utilities are trying to recoup their costs. Rate schedules > are not nearly as solar friendly as they used to be! I wish we could have > E-7 again. > > > > All this said, bill analysis is complicated and there is no one-size-all > solution. That’s why having a good bill analysis and simulation tool is > key. > > > > -August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *frenergy > *Sent:* Monday, June 27, 2016 9:14 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates > > > > correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this new mandatory assignment to TOU > with PG&E start when NEM2.0 starts. I think we can keep using E1 up to the > change...which is soon. Some sites just don't have good afternoon options > here in the Sierras (mountains, trees, etc) Do we start declining jobs > that have excellent SE facing options? Please enlighten me. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > > > On 6/27/2016 6:57 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > > > The mandatory switch to a TOU rate along with NEM 2.0 forces all of us > working with grid tied systems in CA to thoroughly rethink our game plan! > We have been using Energy Toolbase (as Mac mentioned) to model proposals to > accurately estimate post-solar bills under one of these new rates > schedules. TOU-A in my experience tends to be a little better for folks in > the “normal” monthly consumption range, say below 800-1000 kWh/month. High > energy users will probably be better off going TOU-B. For those with > electric vehicles, EV-A is a really good option. That said, we’re still > wrapping our heads around the best rates and design strategies. The peak > rates on the TOU schedules are getting later and later, so west facing > arrays are definitely a plus. > > > > Cheers, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Jason Andrade > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 4:59 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] New Pge TOU rates > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I am looking at the new rates for PG&E’s time of use and was wondering > what others in California are using Tou-A or Tou-B? it looks like if you > have a West facing array Tou-B is going to be the better choice if you can > control your usages. > > http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls > > Thanks for any input > > > > > > > > Jason Andrade > > C-46# 974647 > > (530) 410-4745 Cell > > Please follow the links > > below for great content! > > [image: wcs-email-large] > > [image: youtube-email] > [image: > fb-email] > > > [image: ademail] > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1847 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1456 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3336 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4926 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 28 12:37:13 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:37:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB Message-ID: I'm heading out on my first K1-Open fault code on a SMA inverter. Any tips for diagnostic steps and likely outcome? I'm dreading the call to SMA based on recent feedback about their customer support. ​Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at hudsonsolar.com Tue Jun 28 13:28:27 2016 From: Gary at hudsonsolar.com (Gary Bassett) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 17:28:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, save the visit and spend the time on the phone with SMA, everyone I’ve been on has resulted in an inverter replacement. SMA has done this over the phone and has not required an onsite visit, unless you do not have the serial #. Gary [cid:55B44DB1-8648-4A44-97C2-50FBD3E2B4BD] Gary Bassett Engineering Manager Hudson Solar 13 Hook Road Rhinebeck, NY T: (866) 452-7652 x113 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional HudsonSolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 12:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB I'm heading out on my first K1-Open fault code on a SMA inverter. Any tips for diagnostic steps and likely outcome? I'm dreading the call to SMA based on recent feedback about their customer support. ​Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 23885 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From corey at joule-energy.com Tue Jun 28 19:00:50 2016 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 18:00:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB Message-ID: Jason, Feedback from SMA is that this issue is the result of a "bad batch" of components from one of their suppliers - seems to be related to one of the internal relays. We have fielded no less than a dozen of these error codes, and they have always resulted in an RMA. As Gary pointed out you can likely arrange for the replacement over the phone and save yourself a trip. I still believe SMA has some of the most knowledgable and devoted support representatives in the industry. Unfortunately, though, I too have noticed a sharp uptick in time spent waiting to get ahold of someone whenever I call them. -- Corey Shalanski Joule Solar New Orleans, LA Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 17:28:27 +0000 > From: Gary Bassett > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB > > Jason, save the visit and spend the time on the phone with SMA, everyone > I?ve been on has resulted in an inverter replacement. SMA has done this > over the phone and has not required an onsite visit, unless you do not have > the serial #. > > Gary > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 28 19:14:58 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 19:14:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's out of warranty, and I need to make the trip anyway because there are no SB3300U replacements, so I have to see what's involved to go with a 3000 TL. ​I warned the owner it's probably not going to be a simple fix...​ On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:00 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > Jason, > > Feedback from SMA is that this issue is the result of a "bad batch" of > components from one of their suppliers - seems to be related to one of the > internal relays. We have fielded no less than a dozen of these error codes, > and they have always resulted in an RMA. As Gary pointed out you can likely > arrange for the replacement over the phone and save yourself a trip. > > I still believe SMA has some of the most knowledgable and devoted support > representatives in the industry. Unfortunately, though, I too have noticed > a sharp uptick in time spent waiting to get ahold of someone whenever I > call them. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Solar > New Orleans, LA > > > Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 17:28:27 +0000 >> From: Gary Bassett >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB >> >> Jason, save the visit and spend the time on the phone with SMA, everyone >> I?ve been on has resulted in an inverter replacement. SMA has done this >> over the phone and has not required an onsite visit, unless you do not have >> the serial #. >> >> Gary >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Jun 29 10:00:19 2016 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 10:00:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB References: Message-ID: Jason Fear not, I have had two in the last year and they were fantastic. Sent out new inverters as soon as I sent on the model and serial #'s. K-1 is not usually fixable so they send out new or refurbed units. Apparently it is caused by high voltage on the line side and after X # of times the relay just locks open. Enjoy. peter giroux American Solar ----- Original Message ----- From: Jason Szumlanski To: RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 12:37 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB I'm heading out on my first K1-Open fault code on a SMA inverter. Any tips for diagnostic steps and likely outcome? I'm dreading the call to SMA based on recent feedback about their customer support. ​Jason Szumlanski ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pekka at photonsolarpower.com Wed Jun 29 15:16:42 2016 From: pekka at photonsolarpower.com (Pekka Laine - Photon Solar Power Inc.) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 14:16:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bosch/aleo PV module warranty excuse for a hotspot Message-ID: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> Hello wrenches, Has anyone ever gotten a similar response from Bosch/aleo for a warranty claim on a "hotspot." " Sorry, this is the result. Soiled module glass is the cause, this resulted in current surges and HotSpot on the cell. External influences (shading) is not a part of the aleo product and performance guarantee. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause to you. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards Sales Customer Service (SEDE/SCS) Bosch Solar Services GmbH | August-Broemel-Str. 6 | 99310 Arnstadt | GERMANY | Tel. +49(3628)6643-4728 | Fax +49(3628)6643-4107 " So they are saying the dirt on the glass caused the problem. How convenient....that response can be used to derail every claim. These panels should be designed for ourdoor use. Th at is total bs. So does their product lliterature state dirt is a problem and indicate how often they should be cleaned. Should we as installers accept this? Pekka Laine President Photon Solar Power Inc. www.PhotonSolarPower.com Cell. 760-556-8170 Toll Free 888-SUN-ACDC CA Lic. #933648 NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 032611-174 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 15:27:43 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 15:27:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bosch/aleo PV module warranty excuse for a hotspot In-Reply-To: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> References: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> Message-ID: Did the original documentation say "dirt on the glass is liable to cause hotpots and invalidate the warranty"? No? Thought not. They can't just make stuff up after the fact. On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Pekka Laine - Photon Solar Power Inc. < pekka at photonsolarpower.com> wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > Has anyone ever gotten a similar response from Bosch/aleo for a warranty > claim on a "hotspot." > > " > > Sorry, this is the result. Soiled module glass is the cause, this resulted > in current surges and HotSpot on the cell. External influences (shading) is > not a part of the aleo product and performance guarantee. > > We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause to you. > > > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards > > > Sales Customer Service (SEDE/SCS) > Bosch Solar Services GmbH | August-Broemel-Str. 6 | 99310 Arnstadt > | GERMANY |www.bosch-solarenergy.de > Tel. +49(3628)6643-4728 | Fax +49(3628)6643-4107 > > " > > So they are saying the dirt on the glass caused the problem. How > convenient....that response can be used to derail every claim. These panels > should be designed for ourdoor use. Th at is total bs. So > does their product lliterature state dirt is a problem and indicate how > often they should be cleaned. > > Should we as installers accept this? > Pekka Laine > > President > Photon Solar Power Inc. > www.PhotonSolarPower.com > Cell. 760-556-8170 > Toll Free 888-SUN-ACDC > CA Lic. #933648 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 032611-174 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Wed Jun 29 15:41:35 2016 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 19:41:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bosch/aleo PV module warranty excuse for a hotspot In-Reply-To: References: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> Message-ID: Sounds like a catch-all excuse for “sorry no warranty at all” Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Real-logo-X-195] E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 2:28 PM To: Pekka Laine - Photon Solar Power Inc. ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bosch/aleo PV module warranty excuse for a hotspot Did the original documentation say "dirt on the glass is liable to cause hotpots and invalidate the warranty"? No? Thought not. They can't just make stuff up after the fact. On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Pekka Laine - Photon Solar Power Inc. > wrote: Hello wrenches, Has anyone ever gotten a similar response from Bosch/aleo for a warranty claim on a "hotspot." " Sorry, this is the result. Soiled module glass is the cause, this resulted in current surges and HotSpot on the cell. External influences (shading) is not a part of the aleo product and performance guarantee. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause to you. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards Sales Customer Service (SEDE/SCS) Bosch Solar Services GmbH | August-Broemel-Str. 6 | 99310 Arnstadt | GERMANY |www.bosch-solarenergy.de Tel. +49(3628)6643-4728 | Fax +49(3628)6643-4107 " So they are saying the dirt on the glass caused the problem. How convenient....that response can be used to derail every claim. These panels should be designed for ourdoor use. That is total bs. So does their product lliterature state dirt is a problem and indicate how often they should be cleaned. Should we as installers accept this? Pekka Laine President Photon Solar Power Inc. www.PhotonSolarPower.com Cell. 760-556-8170 Toll Free 888-SUN-ACDC CA Lic. #933648 NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 032611-174 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 17364 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 29 16:40:00 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 16:40:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's out of warranty. 10 year old SB3300U. Went out today. Everything checked out on the AC and DC side, fuses, etc. Looks like a dead duck. Owner went for a new SB3000TL. Thanks for the feedback everyone! ​Jason ​ On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Peter Giroux wrote: > Jason > > Fear not, I have had two in the last year and they were fantastic. > Sent out new inverters as soon as I sent on the model and serial #'s. K-1 > is not usually fixable so they send out new or refurbed units. > > Apparently it is caused by high voltage on the line side and after X # > of times the relay just locks open. Enjoy. > > peter giroux > American Solar > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jason Szumlanski > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 28, 2016 12:37 PM > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB > > I'm heading out on my first K1-Open fault code on a SMA inverter. Any tips > for diagnostic steps and likely outcome? I'm dreading the call to SMA based > on recent feedback about their customer support. > > > > ​Jason Szumlanski > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jun 29 16:42:17 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 13:42:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bosch/aleo PV module warranty excuse for a hotspot In-Reply-To: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> References: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> Message-ID: Hi Pekka, Oh boy, this sounds bad. I know that early modules < year 2000 had a lot of hot spot related issues, but I haven’t personally had any in the recent past. This sounds like a total excuse. All modules may get dirty. The last time we had a module producing low energy, the module manufacturer (Suniva) gladly replaced the module after we sent them voltage and current readings. Out of curiosity, what kind of glass soiling did you have? What are the symptoms (low production, discolored cells, burned traces)? We’ve installed some Aleo systems and I’ve attached the warranty info that I had on file in case it helps. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Pekka Laine - Photon Solar Power Inc. *Sent:* Wednesday, June 29, 2016 12:17 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Bosch/aleo PV module warranty excuse for a hotspot Hello wrenches, Has anyone ever gotten a similar response from Bosch/aleo for a warranty claim on a "hotspot." " Sorry, this is the result. Soiled module glass is the cause, this resulted in current surges and HotSpot on the cell. External influences (shading) is not a part of the aleo product and performance guarantee. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause to you. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards Sales Customer Service (SEDE/SCS) Bosch Solar Services GmbH | August-Broemel-Str. 6 | 99310 Arnstadt | GERMANY |www.bosch-solarenergy.de Tel. +49(3628)6643-4728 | Fax +49(3628)6643-4107 " So they are saying the dirt on the glass caused the problem. How convenient....that response can be used to derail every claim. These panels should be designed for ourdoor use. Th at is total bs. So does their product lliterature state dirt is a problem and indicate how often they should be cleaned. Should we as installers accept this? Pekka Laine President Photon Solar Power Inc. www.PhotonSolarPower.com Cell. 760-556-8170 Toll Free 888-SUN-ACDC CA Lic. #933648 NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 032611-174 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Aleo-Bosch Power Guarantee.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 567335 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Jun 29 17:02:56 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 11:02:56 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of warranties In-Reply-To: References: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> Message-ID: <00a701d1d249$9d721500$d8563f00$@com> Aloha all, I’ve found what I find to be reasonable installation warranty language covering installation workmanship and materials. Please contact me off-line if you’re interested in getting that verbiage. marco --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed Jun 29 19:26:42 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 16:26:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of warranties In-Reply-To: <00a701d1d249$9d721500$d8563f00$@com> References: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> <00a701d1d249$9d721500$d8563f00$@com> Message-ID: <01c401d1d25d$b37b78a0$1a7269e0$@solarwindworks.com> Speaking of warranties, is BP still warrantying the 3160’s circa 2002, any new contact info available? Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 2:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of warranties Aloha all, I’ve found what I find to be reasonable installation warranty language covering installation workmanship and materials. Please contact me off-line if you’re interested in getting that verbiage. marco _____ Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 30 09:31:14 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:31:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of warranties In-Reply-To: <01c401d1d25d$b37b78a0$1a7269e0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> <00a701d1d249$9d721500$d8563f00$@com> <01c401d1d25d$b37b78a0$1a7269e0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <001d01d1d2d3$aea9c8b0$0bfd5a10$@sbcglobal.net> Visiting a Canadian Solar array we put up a couple years ago, where there appears to be 1/32” wide tracks crossing cells on several of the modules, (look like little worm holes) branching and in one module they are particularly thick just over an Enphase 215. Tracings in a few spots are slightly discolored and appear raised instead of flat. Top glass and the bottom cover sheet is apparently untouched. I would think possible a close lightening hit but none of the MOV’s (SOV’s?) in the Midnight Solar lightening arrester are blown. Have others of you seen similar damage? I am assuming this could become an insurance instead of a warranty issue. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Worcester Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 6:27 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of warranties Speaking of warranties, is BP still warrantying the 3160’s circa 2002, any new contact info available? Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 2:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of warranties Aloha all, I’ve found what I find to be reasonable installation warranty language covering installation workmanship and materials. Please contact me off-line if you’re interested in getting that verbiage. marco _____ Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Thu Jun 30 10:17:52 2016 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:17:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of warranties In-Reply-To: <001d01d1d2d3$aea9c8b0$0bfd5a10$@sbcglobal.net> References: <456501661.53171.1467227802700.JavaMail.open-xchange@bosoxweb02.eigbox.net> <00a701d1d249$9d721500$d8563f00$@com> <01c401d1d25d$b37b78a0$1a7269e0$@solarwindworks.com> <001d01d1d2d3$aea9c8b0$0bfd5a10$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: We have observed exactly that phenomenon on some Canadian modules that are a couple of years old, but connected to a string inverter. We used an IV curve tracer to test all of of the modules and they tested out fine. That system actually has an expansion with Suniva modules and the Canadians with the strange cell patterns actually tested out with a better observed vs. expected ratio than the Sunivas, which do not show the worm-tracks on their cells. Cheers, Mark ---- Mark Westbrock| VP, Branch Manager | Employee Owner ​SunPower by Positive Energy Solar NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP™ Certified Technical Sales Professional NM EE98J Licensed Electrician 510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001 cell 575.640.2432 | office 575.524.2030 mw at PositiveEnergySolar.com www.PositiveEnergySolar.com On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 7:31 AM, William Dorsett wrote: > Visiting a Canadian Solar array we put up a couple years ago, where there > appears to be 1/32” wide tracks crossing cells on several of the modules, > (look like little worm holes) branching and in one module they are > particularly thick just over an Enphase 215. Tracings in a few spots are > slightly discolored and appear raised instead of flat. Top glass and the > bottom cover sheet is apparently untouched. I would think possible a close > lightening hit but none of the MOV’s (SOV’s?) in the Midnight Solar > lightening arrester are blown. > > > > Have others of you seen similar damage? I am assuming this could become an > insurance instead of a warranty issue. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Worcester > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 29, 2016 6:27 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of warranties > > > > Speaking of warranties, is BP still warrantying the 3160’s circa 2002, any > new contact info available? > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Marco > Mangelsdorf > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 29, 2016 2:03 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] speaking of warranties > > > > Aloha all, > > > > I’ve found what I find to be reasonable installation warranty language > covering installation workmanship and materials. > > > > Please contact me off-line if you’re interested in getting that verbiage. > > > > marco > > > ------------------------------ > > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 30 10:22:31 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:22:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bracket for Fronius IG Message-ID: Anyone know where I can get a replacement bracket set for an IG5000? ​Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jun 30 10:36:46 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 07:36:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bracket for Fronius IG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: do you mean a mounting bracket? I can't remember if the mounting brackets are the same for all sizes of IGs On 6/30/2016 7:22 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Anyone know where I can get a replacement bracket set for an IG5000? > > > ​Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 30 11:19:08 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 11:19:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bracket for Fronius IG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, mounting bracket (top and bottom) ​It's not the easiest inverter to mount without the factory supplied brackets, and I'm up against one that was removed and requires re-installation.​ On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 10:36 AM, frenergy wrote: > do you mean a mounting bracket? I can't remember if the mounting brackets > are the same for all sizes of IGs > > > On 6/30/2016 7:22 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Anyone know where I can get a replacement bracket set for an IG5000? > > > ​Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Thu Jun 30 16:01:29 2016 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:01:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB Message-ID: <20160630130129.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.d5157036f5.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:25:51 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:25:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] K1-Open Fault on SMA SB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If its broke hope its still in warrantee Good luck On Jun 28, 2016 6:37 AM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm heading out on my first K1-Open fault code on a SMA inverter. Any tips > for diagnostic steps and likely outcome? I'm dreading the call to SMA based > on recent feedback about their customer support. > > > > ​Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 20:43:13 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 17:43:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <461E816E-C5C3-484B-9EE9-46A8AF83E723@gmail.com> Hi All, Any trick methods to keep a SQflex running on AC power at a given flow rate that is less than full power? I’ve got a well that is just on 1 gpm, around 150’ lift. the sqflex 3-2 will do it, but at 3gpm with full watts, an amazing 265 watts. thx jay peltz power From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 20:43:13 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 17:43:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <461E816E-C5C3-484B-9EE9-46A8AF83E723@gmail.com> Hi All, Any trick methods to keep a SQflex running on AC power at a given flow rate that is less than full power? I’ve got a well that is just on 1 gpm, around 150’ lift. the sqflex 3-2 will do it, but at 3gpm with full watts, an amazing 265 watts. thx jay peltz power From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 01:32:57 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 19:32:57 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex Message-ID: Wrenches Make an artificial head by a valve to reduce flow on the outlet side, it might increase watt demand. They will voltage compensate so reducing volts will not do it. I have to ask why thats a problem anyway, the pump will turn off if the level gets to low anyway. Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: jay
Date:06/30/2016 2:43 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex
Hi All, Any trick methods to keep a SQflex running on AC power at a given flow rate that is less than full power? I’ve got a well that is just on 1 gpm, around 150’ lift. the sqflex 3-2 will do it, but at 3gpm with full watts, an amazing 265 watts. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jul 1 11:41:13 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 11:41:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <461E816E-C5C3-484B-9EE9-46A8AF83E723@gmail.com> References: <461E816E-C5C3-484B-9EE9-46A8AF83E723@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd suggest a valve restrictor or perhaps a ball valve that you can adjust over time till you achieve your correct flow rate while making sure your well is able to recover. Christopher On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 8:43 PM, jay wrote: > Hi All, > > Any trick methods to keep a SQflex running on AC power at a given flow > rate that is less than full power? > > I’ve got a well that is just on 1 gpm, around 150’ lift. > > the sqflex 3-2 will do it, but at 3gpm with full watts, an amazing 265 > watts. > > > thx > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From starpower4u at juno.com Fri Jul 1 12:29:25 2016 From: starpower4u at juno.com (Jeff Oldham) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 16:29:25 GMT Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGM cell R&R Message-ID: <20160701.092925.8904.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> Has anyone R&R a single cell from an Outback AGM 2 cell can? The manual speaks to being careful to not let one slide out so that is encouraging, but I'm concerned about putting it back in. Do they have any tendency to bulge and make it difficult to replace? I have an extremely tight, steep and nearly inaccessible existing battery location that is not conducive to battery relocation or any reasonable rigging to handle 200# 2) cell cans. I hope a fellow Wrench has had to deal as I cannot get any answers from the manu. Thanks and have a fun and safe holiday weekend! >From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions ____________________________________________________________ Affordable Wireless Plans Set up is easy. Get online in minutes. Starting at only $9.95 per month! www.netzero.net?refcd=nzmem0216 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jul 1 20:14:08 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 19:14:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <461E816E-C5C3-484B-9EE9-46A8AF83E723@gmail.com> References: <461E816E-C5C3-484B-9EE9-46A8AF83E723@gmail.com> Message-ID: <68BF3732-9346-4148-8390-5D1B499DBCFF@mavericksolar.com> Jay, Will a Variac work in this situation? Thank you, Maverick > On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:43 PM, jay wrote: > > Hi All, > > Any trick methods to keep a SQflex running on AC power at a given flow rate that is less than full power? > > I’ve got a well that is just on 1 gpm, around 150’ lift. > > the sqflex 3-2 will do it, but at 3gpm with full watts, an amazing 265 watts. > > > thx > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 20:41:35 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 18:41:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <68BF3732-9346-4148-8390-5D1B499DBCFF@mavericksolar.com> References: <461E816E-C5C3-484B-9EE9-46A8AF83E723@gmail.com> <68BF3732-9346-4148-8390-5D1B499DBCFF@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Could you use real slow pulse width modulation to do what you want? Are you trying to limit energy, power or volume delivered? If you've got the Cu 200, you could put a timer on the float switch contacts that cycle it on and off. On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > Jay, > > Will a Variac work in this situation? > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > > On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:43 PM, jay wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > Any trick methods to keep a SQflex running on AC power at a given flow > rate that is less than full power? > > > > I’ve got a well that is just on 1 gpm, around 150’ lift. > > > > the sqflex 3-2 will do it, but at 3gpm with full watts, an amazing 265 > watts. > > > > > > thx > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Jul 2 16:50:38 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 13:50:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV output but no power In-Reply-To: <20160701.092925.8904.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> References: <20160701.092925.8904.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <45792bdc-3a13-cccd-446d-7bcccec3747e@psln.com> I just came upon a small off-grid system: 12 volt, 4, Kyo 120's (I,mppt= 7.1A; Voc = 21.7 or so), Trace C40 with display, etc. The combiner has fuses for each PV/landing. At noon, output of the array is 10.5 amps. Clamping the 4 pvs I get 5.5 amps on 2 PVs and 0.0 on 2 others. I disconnect leads from terminals in PV j-box of the 'dead' PVs and I get Voc=18.5 (pretty hot day) and Isc= 6 amps. However when I reconnect these same PVs to the combiner there is no change in combined amps. Fronts and backs of PVs look good, no burns, browns, bubbles in backsheet, under the glass looks fine, its all good. Inside the J-boxes look perfect/new. Ideas? Thx, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 16:50:45 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:50:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV output but no power In-Reply-To: <45792bdc-3a13-cccd-446d-7bcccec3747e@psln.com> References: <20160701.092925.8904.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> <45792bdc-3a13-cccd-446d-7bcccec3747e@psln.com> Message-ID: Have you tried shorting the strings individually? Otherwise short each module individually and record the current. On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 4:50 PM, frenergy wrote: > I just came upon a small off-grid system: 12 volt, 4, Kyo 120's (I,mppt= > 7.1A; Voc = 21.7 or so), Trace C40 with display, etc. The combiner has > fuses for each PV/landing. At noon, output of the array is 10.5 amps. > Clamping the 4 pvs I get 5.5 amps on 2 PVs and 0.0 on 2 others. I > disconnect leads from terminals in PV j-box of the 'dead' PVs and I get > Voc=18.5 (pretty hot day) and Isc= 6 amps. However when I reconnect these > same PVs to the combiner there is no change in combined amps. Fronts and > backs of PVs look good, no burns, browns, bubbles in backsheet, under the > glass looks fine, its all good. Inside the J-boxes look perfect/new. > Ideas? > Thx, > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 16:52:16 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 10:52:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV output but no power In-Reply-To: <45792bdc-3a13-cccd-446d-7bcccec3747e@psln.com> References: <20160701.092925.8904.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> <45792bdc-3a13-cccd-446d-7bcccec3747e@psln.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Bypass diods fail and may short Jerry On Jul 2, 2016 1:49 PM, "frenergy" wrote: > I just came upon a small off-grid system: 12 volt, 4, Kyo 120's (I,mppt= > 7.1A; Voc = 21.7 or so), Trace C40 with display, etc. The combiner has > fuses for each PV/landing. At noon, output of the array is 10.5 amps. > Clamping the 4 pvs I get 5.5 amps on 2 PVs and 0.0 on 2 others. I > disconnect leads from terminals in PV j-box of the 'dead' PVs and I get > Voc=18.5 (pretty hot day) and Isc= 6 amps. However when I reconnect these > same PVs to the combiner there is no change in combined amps. Fronts and > backs of PVs look good, no burns, browns, bubbles in backsheet, under the > glass looks fine, its all good. Inside the J-boxes look perfect/new. > Ideas? > Thx, > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 17:17:40 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 15:17:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV output but no power In-Reply-To: References: <20160701.092925.8904.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> <45792bdc-3a13-cccd-446d-7bcccec3747e@psln.com> Message-ID: Kyocera had a batch of 120s and 85s that had bad solder connections from a certain year. I'm not remembering the year at the moment but we are still finding them. Kyocera has been really amazing about honoring the warranty. On Jul 2, 2016 2:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > Wrenches > Bypass diods fail and may short > Jerry > On Jul 2, 2016 1:49 PM, "frenergy" wrote: > >> I just came upon a small off-grid system: 12 volt, 4, Kyo 120's (I,mppt= >> 7.1A; Voc = 21.7 or so), Trace C40 with display, etc. The combiner has >> fuses for each PV/landing. At noon, output of the array is 10.5 amps. >> Clamping the 4 pvs I get 5.5 amps on 2 PVs and 0.0 on 2 others. I >> disconnect leads from terminals in PV j-box of the 'dead' PVs and I get >> Voc=18.5 (pretty hot day) and Isc= 6 amps. However when I reconnect these >> same PVs to the combiner there is no change in combined amps. Fronts and >> backs of PVs look good, no burns, browns, bubbles in backsheet, under the >> glass looks fine, its all good. Inside the J-boxes look perfect/new. >> Ideas? >> Thx, >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at westcoastsustainables.com Sat Jul 2 18:37:31 2016 From: jason at westcoastsustainables.com (Jason Andrade) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 15:37:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQflex Message-ID: <005b01d1d4b2$534ff030$f9efd090$@westcoastsustainables.com> I have this same situation with my off grid well, I have a grundfos sqf5-2 and the yield wound up being .25 gpm. Originally I ran it on 2- Astronergy 235 and made a timing system using a sprinkler timer and a midnite kid controller it was tough to control the production as the power varied and was limited to daylight hours. I ran ac power to the control box and now use a simple AC wall (pump draw is 400 watts) timer that up to seven daily cycles and control the pump times calculated on the recapture rate of the well which varies with the water table. I also use inline water gauges to help determine the amount of water I can pump per cycle because the amount drops so much in the summer. I went with the controlled time method over restriction as it was going to have to be extreme in my situation, there is a product out there I read about the dole valve that can regulate the production to 1GPM http://www.pumpsandwells.com/mm5/PDFs/Dole%20Valves.pdf without messing with the power directly. Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell Please follow the links below for great content! > On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:43 PM, jay wrote: > > Hi All, > > Any trick methods to keep a SQflex running on AC power at a given flow rate that is less than full power? > > I?ve got a well that is just on 1 gpm, around 150? lift. > > the sqflex 3-2 will do it, but at 3gpm with full watts, an amazing 265 watts. > > > thx > > jay > > peltz power From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Jul 2 18:54:42 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:54:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV output but no power In-Reply-To: References: <20160701.092925.8904.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> <45792bdc-3a13-cccd-446d-7bcccec3747e@psln.com> Message-ID: <0C2866D4-6AC3-4F6A-80CC-4D553AED21B0@starlightsolar.com> The dates of the defective KC-120-1 (and KC-80-1) are from late 1998 to Dec. 2002. Any modules in the date period will be replaced at no cost by Kyocera. Talk about amazing commitment to the customer, these modules only had a 1 year defect warranty. 15 years later and they are still replacing them with remanufactured units. Bill, the typical failure is Voc of about 10 volts. However, the failure can be intermittent. For this reason, any modules in the date period should be replaced even though they appear to test OK. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 2, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Kyocera had a batch of 120s and 85s that had bad solder connections from a certain year. I'm not remembering the year at the moment but we are still finding them. Kyocera has been really amazing about honoring the warranty. On Jul 2, 2016 2:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" > wrote: Wrenches Bypass diods fail and may short Jerry On Jul 2, 2016 1:49 PM, "frenergy" > wrote: I just came upon a small off-grid system: 12 volt, 4, Kyo 120's (I,mppt= 7.1A; Voc = 21.7 or so), Trace C40 with display, etc. The combiner has fuses for each PV/landing. At noon, output of the array is 10.5 amps. Clamping the 4 pvs I get 5.5 amps on 2 PVs and 0.0 on 2 others. I disconnect leads from terminals in PV j-box of the 'dead' PVs and I get Voc=18.5 (pretty hot day) and Isc= 6 amps. However when I reconnect these same PVs to the combiner there is no change in combined amps. Fronts and backs of PVs look good, no burns, browns, bubbles in backsheet, under the glass looks fine, its all good. Inside the J-boxes look perfect/new. Ideas? Thx, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Jul 2 19:28:45 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:28:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV output but no power In-Reply-To: <0C2866D4-6AC3-4F6A-80CC-4D553AED21B0@starlightsolar.com> References: <20160701.092925.8904.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> <45792bdc-3a13-cccd-446d-7bcccec3747e@psln.com> <0C2866D4-6AC3-4F6A-80CC-4D553AED21B0@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Just got this thread. Mac and Larry are correct. As an old timer, this one example of great customer support (specifically understanding that installing dealers are their true customers) has given me cause to respect Kyocera and sell and approve them to my customer base. Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar > On Jul 2, 2016, at 3:54 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > The dates of the defective KC-120-1 (and KC-80-1) are from late 1998 to Dec. 2002. Any modules in the date period will be replaced at no cost by Kyocera. Talk about amazing commitment to the customer, these modules only had a 1 year defect warranty. 15 years later and they are still replacing them with remanufactured units. > > Bill, the typical failure is Voc of about 10 volts. However, the failure can be intermittent. For this reason, any modules in the date period should be replaced even though they appear to test OK. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > On Jul 2, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Kyocera had a batch of 120s and 85s that had bad solder connections from a certain year. I'm not remembering the year at the moment but we are still finding them. > > Kyocera has been really amazing about honoring the warranty. > > >> On Jul 2, 2016 2:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: >> Wrenches >> Bypass diods fail and may short >> Jerry >> >>> On Jul 2, 2016 1:49 PM, "frenergy" wrote: >>> I just came upon a small off-grid system: 12 volt, 4, Kyo 120's (I,mppt= 7.1A; Voc = 21.7 or so), Trace C40 with display, etc. The combiner has fuses for each PV/landing. At noon, output of the array is 10.5 amps. Clamping the 4 pvs I get 5.5 amps on 2 PVs and 0.0 on 2 others. I disconnect leads from terminals in PV j-box of the 'dead' PVs and I get Voc=18.5 (pretty hot day) and Isc= 6 amps. However when I reconnect these same PVs to the combiner there is no change in combined amps. Fronts and backs of PVs look good, no burns, browns, bubbles in backsheet, under the glass looks fine, its all good. Inside the J-boxes look perfect/new. >>> Ideas? >>> Thx, >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Jul 4 15:01:59 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 19:01:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <461E816E-C5C3-484B-9EE9-46A8AF83E723@gmail.com> References: <461E816E-C5C3-484B-9EE9-46A8AF83E723@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93da17f44b004779a3e49833c714a211@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> We usually use timer relays so that the pump will only run x minutes out of the hr, timed so that the well has sufficient time to recharge between pump runs. Wouldn't artificially increasing the pressure by a restriction valve cause the pump to use more energy? I have never tried that that was suggested in other comments. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: June-30-16 5:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex Hi All, Any trick methods to keep a SQflex running on AC power at a given flow rate that is less than full power? I’ve got a well that is just on 1 gpm, around 150’ lift. the sqflex 3-2 will do it, but at 3gpm with full watts, an amazing 265 watts. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Jul 4 15:05:09 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 19:05:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV output but no power In-Reply-To: <0C2866D4-6AC3-4F6A-80CC-4D553AED21B0@starlightsolar.com> References: <20160701.092925.8904.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> <45792bdc-3a13-cccd-446d-7bcccec3747e@psln.com> <0C2866D4-6AC3-4F6A-80CC-4D553AED21B0@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I can also commend Kyocera's excellent customer service re: the KC120 failure issue. We had one site that involved a large crane on a barge to access panels perched up on tracker on a rock bluff by the ocean - and they covered 100% of the costs for that, several thousand, which was clearly above and beyond warranty obligations. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: July-02-16 3:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV output but no power The dates of the defective KC-120-1 (and KC-80-1) are from late 1998 to Dec. 2002. Any modules in the date period will be replaced at no cost by Kyocera. Talk about amazing commitment to the customer, these modules only had a 1 year defect warranty. 15 years later and they are still replacing them with remanufactured units. Bill, the typical failure is Voc of about 10 volts. However, the failure can be intermittent. For this reason, any modules in the date period should be replaced even though they appear to test OK. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 2, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Kyocera had a batch of 120s and 85s that had bad solder connections from a certain year. I'm not remembering the year at the moment but we are still finding them. Kyocera has been really amazing about honoring the warranty. On Jul 2, 2016 2:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" > wrote: Wrenches Bypass diods fail and may short Jerry On Jul 2, 2016 1:49 PM, "frenergy" > wrote: I just came upon a small off-grid system: 12 volt, 4, Kyo 120's (I,mppt= 7.1A; Voc = 21.7 or so), Trace C40 with display, etc. The combiner has fuses for each PV/landing. At noon, output of the array is 10.5 amps. Clamping the 4 pvs I get 5.5 amps on 2 PVs and 0.0 on 2 others. I disconnect leads from terminals in PV j-box of the 'dead' PVs and I get Voc=18.5 (pretty hot day) and Isc= 6 amps. However when I reconnect these same PVs to the combiner there is no change in combined amps. Fronts and backs of PVs look good, no burns, browns, bubbles in backsheet, under the glass looks fine, its all good. Inside the J-boxes look perfect/new. Ideas? Thx, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Jul 5 10:37:28 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:37:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing Pump Sensors Message-ID: <20160705143804.64AF6282061@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> Is there a way to test the conductivity sensors for the low water shutoff and restart on a submersible well pump, from the surface? Could the wires be resistivity tested? What should the resistance readings be between the wires? Would a megohm meter be the right tool to use? Could the pump be harmed by the high voltage spike in the water around it produced by the meter? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 12:28:29 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 12:28:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing Pump Sensors In-Reply-To: References: <20160705143804.64AF6282061@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Test resistance only on disconnected wiring, measure resistant to ground either side of the switching point. . The controller will likely be a open collector that will measure current to ground. Do nor use megger, you are not testing insulation. On Jul 5, 2016 10:37 AM, "Drake" wrote: Is there a way to test the conductivity sensors for the low water shutoff and restart on a submersible well pump, from the surface? Could the wires be resistivity tested? What should the resistance readings be between the wires? Would a megohm meter be the right tool to use? Could the pump be harmed by the high voltage spike in the water around it produced by the meter? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 5 15:46:39 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 15:46:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive Message-ID: It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service (good and bad) a lot lately. Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I gave up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they no longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and competent if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are generally going down hill it seems. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 5 18:34:23 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 18:34:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And like magic, I received a call 45 minutes after posting this. A VERY helpful manager saw my (repeated) tickets and was asked by his manager to call me. That issue got straightened out. He said they are very aware of their backlog and they are all working overtime and hiring customer support personnel. Again, to be clear, they are always very professional and helpful when you actually get someone one the phone. Let's home they cut the response times down. I'm pulling for them. They started off with world class support, and seem intent on getting back there. Haha, and as I type this, no joke, an email just came in with a satisfaction survey from Enphase. Jason On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I gave > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they no > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and competent > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > generally going down hill it seems. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Jul 5 18:35:21 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 18:35:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jason, I agree totally. What works for me here on the East (Right) Coast is I call just prior to 2000 EST and I am almost assured of being able to talk with out a long wait time. Most times I get straight through. Christopher On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I gave > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they no > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and competent > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > generally going down hill it seems. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Tue Jul 5 17:35:23 2016 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 21:35:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason and wrenches, Sorry for the trouble you had with your case. The best way to reach our customer service team for expedited service is through the phone system or through our automated self service portal. The self-service portal allows you to process RMAs and receive up to date service notes on your cases. We recently launched the self-service portal, and hope it will be of use to you all. It can be accessed here: https://service.enphaseenergy.com/users/sign_in You will need to use your Enlighten user ID and credentials to access the portal. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy | Field Applications Engineer (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved (tm) Powering What's Next(tm) | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" - William McDonough ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2016 12:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service (good and bad) a lot lately. Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I gave up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they no longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and competent if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are generally going down hill it seems. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 6 08:08:07 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:08:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your response, Nick. I was just introduced to the warranty service portal, and it is definitely a big help. Now if you can just get hold times under control, or implement an automated call back system at least, that would be great. Jason On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Nick Soleil wrote: > Hi Jason and wrenches, > > > Sorry for the trouble you had with your case. The best way to reach our > customer service team for expedited service is through the phone system or > through our automated self service portal. > > > The self-service portal allows you to process RMAs and receive up to date > service notes on your cases. We recently launched the self-service portal, > and hope it will be of use to you all. It can be accessed here: > > https://service.enphaseenergy.com/users/sign_in > > > You will need to use your Enlighten user ID and credentials to access the > portal. > > > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase Energy | Field Applications Engineer > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > [image: Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] > > Energy Evolved ™ > > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > > “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” > > - William McDonough > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 5, 2016 12:46 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I gave > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they no > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and competent > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > generally going down hill it seems. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > The information contained in this message may be privileged and > confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to > whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is > not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this > message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or > destroy any copy of this message! > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jul 6 09:38:17 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 09:38:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing Pump Sensors In-Reply-To: References: <20160705143804.64AF6282061@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20160706133823.4736D28406C@homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com> I did a test this morning. In a bowl of tap water (chlorinated) the reading was about 0.7 Ohms at a 6" separation of the probes. That is a lot more conductive that the readings I got, and will quantify on the next visit. Pure water is considered dielectric,but also shows some conductivity. http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/41115/why-is-water-not-used-as-a-dielectric-in-the-condenser At 12:28 PM 7/5/2016, you wrote: >Test resistance only on disconnected wiring, >measure resistant to ground either side of the >switching point. . The controller will likely be >a open collector that will measure current to >ground. Do nor use megger, you are not testing insulation. >On Jul 5, 2016 10:37 AM, "Drake" ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Is there a way to test the conductivity sensors >for the low water shutoff and restart on a >submersible well pump, from the surface? > Could the wires be resistivity tested? > >What should the resistance readings be between >the wires? Would a megohm meter be the right >tool to use? Could the pump be harmed by the >high voltage spike in the water around it produced by the meter? > >Thanks, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Jul 7 15:33:19 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 09:33:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enecysys micros Message-ID: <01d401d1d886$6b139dc0$413ad940$@com> Aloha, I'm on the hunt for one or more working Enecsys Duo (480 watts output from two 60-cell mods) micro inverters. Please see the attached spec sheet. If anyone has any or knows someone who might, please contact me off-list. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Enecsys 480W-60.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1273260 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu Jul 7 22:49:03 2016 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2016 19:49:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Translucent Backed Modules Message-ID: Wrenches, I have a custom project we are putting a proposal together for that is to fly over the pool/outdoor patio and provide partial shade. It will require a translucent module to allow some light to pass through to the decking/pool below. The steel superstructure is existing already and can be modified somewhat to accommodate racking/additional tilt. It could be framed or frameless glass on glass. Any recommendations out there? Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St, Tucson, AZ 85705 Cell: 520.270.4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Jul 8 01:51:52 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 22:51:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Translucent Backed Modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c501d1d8dc$d5b44160$811cc420$@solarwindworks.com> Lumos works. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chad Waits Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 7:49 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Translucent Backed Modules Wrenches, I have a custom project we are putting a proposal together for that is to fly over the pool/outdoor patio and provide partial shade. It will require a translucent module to allow some light to pass through to the decking/pool below. The steel superstructure is existing already and can be modified somewhat to accommodate racking/additional tilt. It could be framed or frameless glass on glass. Any recommendations out there? Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner - Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St, Tucson, AZ 85705 Cell: 520.270.4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 16:09:10 2016 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:09:10 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Translucent Backed Modules In-Reply-To: <00c501d1d8dc$d5b44160$811cc420$@solarwindworks.com> References: <00c501d1d8dc$d5b44160$811cc420$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Sanyo Bi-Facials look nice and have a standard frame. On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > Lumos works. > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chad Waits > *Sent:* Thursday, July 07, 2016 7:49 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Translucent Backed Modules > > > > Wrenches, > > > > I have a custom project we are putting a proposal together for that is to > fly over the pool/outdoor patio and provide partial shade. It will require > a translucent module to allow some light to pass through to the > decking/pool below. The steel superstructure is existing already and can be > modified somewhat to accommodate racking/additional tilt. It could be > framed or frameless glass on glass. > > > > Any recommendations out there? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chad Waits > > President/Owner – Net Zero Solar > > 101 W. 5th St, Tucson, AZ 85705 > > Cell: 520.270.4873 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jul 8 13:54:56 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:54:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ed4375cd9643ac17725ead62ee3908b@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I too struggle with the extended time it takes to reach tech support. We are captive by the fact that many service operations can only be performed by Enphase tech support. I have two suggestions: 1. Please remove the *d&*n* music-on-hold. I can stand being on hold for extended periods but only if I can otherwise be productive. The tinny, repetitive music is a complete distraction. Progressive companies have an option to select no music. I have asked this if Nick Soleil but it has not happened. Please implement this. 2. Please return to the policy of allowing customers to call and inquire about remote diagnostics. I have had customers call in and interact with customer support and it has been a win-win for us. The customer feels empowered and has a better understanding of their equipment and it saves my time. Thanks for considering these options. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Tuesday, July 05, 2016 12:47 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service (good and bad) a lot lately. Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I gave up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they no longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and competent if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are generally going down hill it seems. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 16:46:28 2016 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:46:28 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enecysys micros In-Reply-To: <01d401d1d886$6b139dc0$413ad940$@com> References: <01d401d1d886$6b139dc0$413ad940$@com> Message-ID: Happy Aloha Friday Marco! How do these compare to Enphase? On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha, > > > > I’m on the hunt for one or more working Enecsys Duo (480 watts output from > two 60-cell mods) micro inverters. > > > > Please see the attached spec sheet. > > > > If anyone has any or knows someone who might, please contact me off-list. > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Jul 8 18:13:46 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 17:13:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Watch out for 30 mm frames and make sure your MLPE mounting hardware is compatible and not hitting backsheet Message-ID: <0a8c01d1d965$ff415110$fdc3f330$@solarcentex.com> Hello, all. I wanted to share some lessons learned from a challenge we had last week. We discovered that mounting bolts for DC Optimizers were rubbing the back of the solar modules and wearing enough to cause module internal grounding and inverter fault. The cause of this was we transitioned to 30 mm frames from previous 35 mm frames and the bolts we used to mount optimizers on the rail were now long enough to just nick the back of the module. Get some heavy wind and just enough module flex and voila, you get a worn spot. Fortunately, previous troubleshooting on an old system with internal module faults helped my tech figure out the only culprit could be a bad module, so he started lifting modules and found that issue. I wanted to share and save somebody some time. We have gone to slightly shorter bolts and saved money in the process! Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com www.solarcentex.com https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex http://www.solarreviews.com/installers/solar-centex-reviews/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 48547 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jul 9 07:12:48 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 07:12:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <7ed4375cd9643ac17725ead62ee3908b@mail.gmail.com> References: <7ed4375cd9643ac17725ead62ee3908b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with these recommendations wholeheartedly. The music is extremely annoying. Taking it one step further and just implement a call back queue. On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:54 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I too struggle with the extended time it takes to reach tech support. We > are captive by the fact that many service operations can only be performed > by Enphase tech support. I have two suggestions: > > > > 1. Please remove the *d&*n* music-on-hold. I can stand being on hold > for extended periods but only if I can otherwise be productive. The tinny, > repetitive music is a complete distraction. Progressive companies have an > option to select no music. I have asked this if Nick Soleil but it has not > happened. Please implement this. > > 2. Please return to the policy of allowing customers to call and > inquire about remote diagnostics. I have had customers call in and > interact with customer support and it has been a win-win for us. The > customer feels empowered and has a better understanding of their equipment > and it saves my time. > > > > Thanks for considering these options. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 05, 2016 12:47 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > > > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I gave > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they no > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and competent > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > generally going down hill it seems. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 10:02:12 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 09:02:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Translucent Backed Modules In-Reply-To: References: <00c501d1d8dc$d5b44160$811cc420$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Solar world and Silicon Energy have standard frame mods with glass on glass. I think it's the same module... Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 8, 2016, at 3:09 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Sanyo Bi-Facials look nice and have a standard frame. > >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: >> Lumos works. >> >> >> >> Chris Worcester >> >> Solar Wind Works >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> >> Office 530-582-4503 >> >> Cell 530-448-9692 >> >> Fax 530-582-4603 >> >> www.solarwindworks.com >> >> chris at solarwindworks.com >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chad Waits >> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 7:49 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Translucent Backed Modules >> >> >> >> Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I have a custom project we are putting a proposal together for that is to fly over the pool/outdoor patio and provide partial shade. It will require a translucent module to allow some light to pass through to the decking/pool below. The steel superstructure is existing already and can be modified somewhat to accommodate racking/additional tilt. It could be framed or frameless glass on glass. >> >> >> >> Any recommendations out there? >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> Chad Waits >> >> President/Owner – Net Zero Solar >> >> 101 W. 5th St, Tucson, AZ 85705 >> >> Cell: 520.270.4873 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > James B. Rudolph > Haleakala Solar > Director of Construction > NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Jul 9 10:55:52 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 04:55:52 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enecysys micros In-Reply-To: References: <01d401d1d886$6b139dc0$413ad940$@com> Message-ID: <003101d1d9f1$fd72cd00$f8586700$@com> I liked ‘em, Jim…till they went under a couple of years ago. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of James Rudolph Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 10:46 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enecysys micros Happy Aloha Friday Marco! How do these compare to Enphase? On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Aloha, I’m on the hunt for one or more working Enecsys Duo (480 watts output from two 60-cell mods) micro inverters. Please see the attached spec sheet. If anyone has any or knows someone who might, please contact me off-list. Mahalo, marco _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- James B. Rudolph Haleakala Solar Director of Construction NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sat Jul 9 13:32:01 2016 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 11:32:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Translucent Backed Modules Message-ID: Hello, Chad Waits & all~ Prism Solar has a facility right there in Tucson, Chad...so you can check them out. Prism builds frameless PV laminates with bifacial cells & a clear backer sheet. In addition to a 60 cell version they also have the same jumbo size laminate with only 48 cells so more daylight can get through. Mix & match? http://www.prismsolar.com/contact.php Be sure to report your opinions & experience back to us Wrenchies. Corporate provenance regarding Prism is among my big questions: are they making a sustainable profit? Is there a wealthy parent company? I'm also curious about where their products are built. With your strong sales prospect right there in Tucson, Chad, you're ideally situated to suss out these issues...& help us all. If any friendly folk might be traveling from the Tucson area to SW Colorado, I'd sort of like to buy a Prism sample for show & tell...so if anyone could safely transport same...I'll pay for the help. I know the company through whom I would buy the laminate but it seems crazy for me to motor freight a single unit...especially since it's another of my "maybe I'll find a customer who'll buy it" gambles. BTW for those who wrote about other brands: Panasonic bifacial/clear backer seems unavailable stateside for 2016. Solarworld is showing a bifacial/clear backer product in their literature but having built one demo project these also seem unavailable stateside for 2016. The Wrench List is the bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarj at me.com Mon Jul 11 13:53:34 2016 From: solarj at me.com (Jason Kechijian) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 13:53:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Huawei 3-Phase Inverters (US) Message-ID: <9D6AF16A-3D40-4F61-AE20-44AFA03F23B3@me.com> Howdy Wrenches; I am currently looking at using Huawei Inverters on some C&I projects. Do any of y’all have any experience with the brand? Support? Installation? Thoughts? Any information would be helpful! Sunny Wishes, Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ solarj at me.com (843) 200-7271 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jul 13 00:08:16 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:08:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 In-Reply-To: <7ed4375cd9643ac17725ead62ee3908b@mail.gmail.com> References: <7ed4375cd9643ac17725ead62ee3908b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ed157dd-43fe-302a-f598-e7955523c398@psln.com> Folks, I'd like to leave the Mate3 at the OB pre-assembled power center but be able to turn on-off the inverter at a remote location 50 feet away. I assume I can still run some com wire of some kind to a push switch or toggle? connected to the inverter on-off landing of the control wiring terminal block in the AC side of the inverter. Will the Mate3 complain if on-off is done this way? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net From ltuss at outbackpower.com Wed Jul 13 10:42:32 2016 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 14:42:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 In-Reply-To: <2ed157dd-43fe-302a-f598-e7955523c398@psln.com> References: <7ed4375cd9643ac17725ead62ee3908b@mail.gmail.com> <2ed157dd-43fe-302a-f598-e7955523c398@psln.com> Message-ID: Hello Bill Doing so presents no problem to the system or the Mate3. Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 9:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 Folks, I'd like to leave the Mate3 at the OB pre-assembled power center but be able to turn on-off the inverter at a remote location 50 feet away. I assume I can still run some com wire of some kind to a push switch or toggle? connected to the inverter on-off landing of the control wiring terminal block in the AC side of the inverter. Will the Mate3 complain if on-off is done this way? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Jul 13 15:02:28 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:02:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter Message-ID: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> Hello folks, I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. It seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW array than the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is to generate more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I don't feel is justified. My opinion of this particular big-box installer I will keep to myself. My response to the customer, trying to keep it simple: "On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. For instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an input. Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and technical reasons. On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. Power output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the afternoon. In my example, the inverter can't output more than 10 kw AC. What overloading the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. generating more power in the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the peak at 10kw on either side of noon. So there is power to be gained in morning and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if conditions allow the peak output to be reached), since the 12 kw array can never be converted to more than 10 kw of AC power. Depending upon time of year(ambient / cell temperature) and weather conditions, the peak may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours a day. So you are both gaining and losing power using this method. And typically the inverters are only overloaded in this manner on large-scale farms where the economics are favorable. In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw of inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of array would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the power that extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 - 3x the time that the array size does that stays inside the output limit of the inverters. This is why I'm not a big fan of dramatically overloading the inverters, if at all, in your case. Any KW portion of the array which is above the nameplate kw rating of the inverter is going to have a longer payback for these reasons. " I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don't want to be too loose with the facts. Comments are appreciated. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Wed Jul 13 16:15:41 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 16:15:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter In-Reply-To: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> References: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Kirk, I would recommend you consider using a tool like PVsyst or Helioscope to model DC:AC ratios. A quick modeling of roughly 200 kW on three Solectria 50 kW inverters shows about 1.3% clipping here. It then comes down to analysis of your costs for additional modules, dc wiring, and inverters. Admittedly I sit on the opposite side of the fence. I try to provide at least a 1.2 ratio to minimize cost per kWh. I am not aware of any large scale studies comparing PVsyst or Helioscope clipping projections to real world performance. I can tell you that our arrays with monitoring and a ~1.2 DC:AC ratio perform as well as our older 1:1 systems. Not that I use Enphase often but they have some research/whitepapers on the topic since their micros tend to undershoot 60 cell module power ratings. Good luck! Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Wed, July 13, 2016 3:02 pm, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello folks, > > > I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. It > seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW array than > the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is to generate > more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I don't feel is > justified. My opinion of this particular big-box installer I will keep to > myself. My response to the customer, trying to keep it simple: > > > > "On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. > For > instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an input. > Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and technical > reasons. > > On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. > Power > output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the afternoon. In > my example, the inverter can't output more than 10 kw AC. What overloading > the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. generating more power in > the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the peak at 10kw on either side of > noon. So there is power to be gained in morning and afternoon, but peak > power is lost(if conditions allow the peak output to be reached), since > the 12 kw array can never be converted to more than 10 kw of AC power. > Depending upon > time of year(ambient / cell temperature) and weather conditions, the peak > may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours a day. So you are both gaining > and losing power using this method. And typically the inverters are only > overloaded in this manner on large-scale farms where the economics are > favorable. > > In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw of > inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of array > would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the power that > extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 - 3x the time that the array size > does that stays inside the output limit of the inverters. This is why I'm > not a big fan of dramatically overloading the inverters, if at all, in > your case. Any KW portion of the array which is above the nameplate kw > rating of the inverter is going to have a longer payback for these > reasons. " > > I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don't want to be too loose with the > facts. Comments are appreciated. Thanks. > > > > Kirk Herander > > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > > > www.vermontsolarnow.com > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jul 13 16:10:17 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:10:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter In-Reply-To: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> References: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <006801d1dd42$94648250$bd2d86f0$@solarcentex.com> I'll give a different spin and of course each situation is different and to be judged on its own facts. Here in Texas, modules on a summer day don't typically perform to STC ratings and a DC/AC over-ratio is entirely appropriate. I've brought it up to 1.25 in some cases. I look at the economics differently: you're putting in the same 10KW inverters, the same 10KW appropriate wires and conduit, the same OCPD, the same BOS costs for paperwork.so why not use all of that capacity a bit more. Instead of looking at the lost DC clipping, think about the increased use of inverter and beyond components. With a very modest cost increase, you're using that side of the system more (at same cost as it would be for a 10KW DC to 10KW AC system). Yes, in the spring, I might see some midday clipping but a small price to pay for increase year round performance. Your Vermont conditions might not play out like my Texas conditions since you live closer to STC than I do. Howard "Scot" Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 2:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter Hello folks, I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. It seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW array than the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is to generate more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I don't feel is justified. My opinion of this particular big-box installer I will keep to myself. My response to the customer, trying to keep it simple: "On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. For instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an input. Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and technical reasons. On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. Power output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the afternoon. In my example, the inverter can't output more than 10 kw AC. What overloading the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. generating more power in the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the peak at 10kw on either side of noon. So there is power to be gained in morning and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if conditions allow the peak output to be reached), since the 12 kw array can never be converted to more than 10 kw of AC power. Depending upon time of year(ambient / cell temperature) and weather conditions, the peak may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours a day. So you are both gaining and losing power using this method. And typically the inverters are only overloaded in this manner on large-scale farms where the economics are favorable. In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw of inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of array would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the power that extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 - 3x the time that the array size does that stays inside the output limit of the inverters. This is why I'm not a big fan of dramatically overloading the inverters, if at all, in your case. Any KW portion of the array which is above the nameplate kw rating of the inverter is going to have a longer payback for these reasons. " I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don't want to be too loose with the facts. Comments are appreciated. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 48536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 13 16:34:03 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 16:34:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter In-Reply-To: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> References: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> Message-ID: There are a lot of factors involved, but 20% oversizing (DC/AC ratio), is not going to result in much clipping in most cases. Clipping only occurs when the irradiance and temperature are right. Less than ideal conditions may frequently occur during mid-day eliminating the chance of clipping on those days. Morning and afternoon happens every day where upsizing module ratings helps a lot. Widening the bell curve often has a larger effect than clipping. "...if conditions allow the peak output to be reached" is a big if! In my experience, 20% is a pretty safe/low factor. Here in Florida, heat makes modules perform below their nameplate quite a bit. Hazy skies in summer reduce irradiance. On a personal note, I see almost no clipping on my Enphase M215 inverters with 255W modules. Have you ever studied Enphase's "Rightsizing" white paper? While it is specific to their inverters, the concept applies to string inverters, too. They also address regional differences, which are definitely a factor to consider. Also note that some inverters can actually produce more than the nominal nameplate rating on the AC side. I usually take the opposite approach that you are suggesting. Oversizing allows you to use all of the other components to their maximum potential, reducing overall cost per watt DC. I have also seen some pretty aggressive tactics competitors use to show a really low cost per watt DC by pairing a 300W module with an Enphase M215. This it overkill in my opinion, despite Enphase's suggestion that it may have benefits (and their data sheet still recommends a max of 270W). Now that the M215 and M250 are pretty close in price, I'm able to overcome that issue in a competitive situation. I've been tempted to replace one of my modules with a 300W just to see what happens. If I get around to that, I'll report back! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello folks, > > I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. It > seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW array than > the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is to generate > more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I don’t feel is > justified. My opinion of this particular big-box installer I will keep to > myself. My response to the customer, trying to keep it simple: > > > > “On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. > For instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an > input. Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and > technical reasons. > > On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. > Power output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the > afternoon. In my example, the inverter can’t output more than 10 kw AC. > What overloading the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. > generating more power in the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the peak > at 10kw on either side of noon. So there is power to be gained in morning > and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if conditions allow the peak output > to be reached), since the 12 kw array can never be converted to more than > 10 kw of AC power. Depending upon time of year(ambient / cell temperature) > and weather conditions, the peak may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours > a day. So you are both gaining and losing power using this method. And > typically the inverters are only overloaded in this manner on large-scale > farms where the economics are favorable. > > In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw of > inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of array > would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the power that > extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 – 3x the time that the array size > does that stays inside the output limit of the inverters. This is why I’m > not a big fan of dramatically overloading the inverters, if at all, in > your case. *Any KW portion of the array which is above the nameplate kw > rating of the inverter is going to have a longer payback for these reasons. > “* > > I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don’t want to be too loose with the > facts. Comments are appreciated. Thanks. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Wed Jul 13 16:37:35 2016 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 16:37:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <004d01d1dd46$63bc7780$2b356680$@dovetailsolar.com> I'm with Matt in terms of Design. I use 1.2-1.35 as a general rule. With current inverter sizes, you almost always can get a good fit within this range. Climate plays a big role on this. As do the costs of your materials and labor. What we use as guidance is this: [If I save 5% on a systems cost by going with a smaller inverter, and the "clipping" losses are only 2% of my yearly energy, then the tradeoff is worth it. I produce more kWh for the dollars spent.] The above is a simplistic view not using real numbers (don't have time right now to run costs on different options in you climate :) ) You can also think about how the inverter life is affected by operating closer to its limits for a longer amount of time each year, but that is a hard variable to quantify. I ran a set of simulations just for kicks on what I believe to be one of your Jobs Kirk. @ cypress semiconductor. Hopefully to get a better idea of what these DC:AC ratios mean in your climate. I put 6.16kW DC of Solar modules on the roof @15degrees (22 x 280W modules). I ran the simulation with a SB4000TLUS-22, a SB5000TLUS-22, and SB6000TLUS-22. And I got 3.8%, 0.3%, and 0.0% clipping losses respectively. Based on the above, my gut says that the 5kW is certainly worth it. And even the 4k inverter might, but I'm not comfortable going to a 1.5:1 DC:AC ratio for so many other reasons..... With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt Partymiller Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 4:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter Kirk, I would recommend you consider using a tool like PVsyst or Helioscope to model DC:AC ratios. A quick modeling of roughly 200 kW on three Solectria 50 kW inverters shows about 1.3% clipping here. It then comes down to analysis of your costs for additional modules, dc wiring, and inverters. Admittedly I sit on the opposite side of the fence. I try to provide at least a 1.2 ratio to minimize cost per kWh. I am not aware of any large scale studies comparing PVsyst or Helioscope clipping projections to real world performance. I can tell you that our arrays with monitoring and a ~1.2 DC:AC ratio perform as well as our older 1:1 systems. Not that I use Enphase often but they have some research/whitepapers on the topic since their micros tend to undershoot 60 cell module power ratings. Good luck! Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Wed, July 13, 2016 3:02 pm, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello folks, > > > I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. > It seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW > array than the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is > to generate more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I > don't feel is justified. My opinion of this particular big-box > installer I will keep to myself. My response to the customer, trying to keep it simple: > > > > "On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. > For > instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an input. > Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and > technical reasons. > > On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. > Power > output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the afternoon. > In my example, the inverter can't output more than 10 kw AC. What > overloading the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. > generating more power in the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the > peak at 10kw on either side of noon. So there is power to be gained in > morning and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if conditions allow the > peak output to be reached), since the 12 kw array can never be converted to more than 10 kw of AC power. > Depending upon > time of year(ambient / cell temperature) and weather conditions, the > peak may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours a day. So you are both > gaining and losing power using this method. And typically the > inverters are only overloaded in this manner on large-scale farms > where the economics are favorable. > > In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw > of inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of > array would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the > power that extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 - 3x the time that > the array size does that stays inside the output limit of the > inverters. This is why I'm not a big fan of dramatically overloading > the inverters, if at all, in your case. Any KW portion of the array > which is above the nameplate kw rating of the inverter is going to > have a longer payback for these reasons. " > > I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don't want to be too loose with > the facts. Comments are appreciated. Thanks. > > > > Kirk Herander > > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > > > www.vermontsolarnow.com > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Jul 13 16:37:31 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 16:37:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <00ff01d1dd46$61d2cff0$25786fd0$@icloud.com> Of the many Enphase systems I've done, clipping is a regular issue in wintertime Vermont, especially with the older micros whose output wattage ran way below the max. panel wattage. I've seen clipping for 3 hours or more on super-cold, crystal clear days, with customer complaints about not being able to harness the peak . The DC:AC ratio of greater than 1 may also not be advantageous when using module based electronics, ala Solaredge, since the claim of 5 -7 % greater dc to ac conversion over a string inverter appears to hold true in my experience. You may be already getting the gains which overloading will accomplish, making overloading unfeasible economically. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt Partymiller Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 4:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter Kirk, I would recommend you consider using a tool like PVsyst or Helioscope to model DC:AC ratios. A quick modeling of roughly 200 kW on three Solectria 50 kW inverters shows about 1.3% clipping here. It then comes down to analysis of your costs for additional modules, dc wiring, and inverters. Admittedly I sit on the opposite side of the fence. I try to provide at least a 1.2 ratio to minimize cost per kWh. I am not aware of any large scale studies comparing PVsyst or Helioscope clipping projections to real world performance. I can tell you that our arrays with monitoring and a ~1.2 DC:AC ratio perform as well as our older 1:1 systems. Not that I use Enphase often but they have some research/whitepapers on the topic since their micros tend to undershoot 60 cell module power ratings. Good luck! Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Wed, July 13, 2016 3:02 pm, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello folks, > > > I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. > It seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW > array than the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is > to generate more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I > don't feel is justified. My opinion of this particular big-box > installer I will keep to myself. My response to the customer, trying to keep it simple: > > > > "On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. > For > instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an input. > Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and > technical reasons. > > On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. > Power > output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the afternoon. > In my example, the inverter can't output more than 10 kw AC. What > overloading the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. > generating more power in the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the > peak at 10kw on either side of noon. So there is power to be gained in > morning and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if conditions allow the > peak output to be reached), since the 12 kw array can never be converted to more than 10 kw of AC power. > Depending upon > time of year(ambient / cell temperature) and weather conditions, the > peak may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours a day. So you are both > gaining and losing power using this method. And typically the > inverters are only overloaded in this manner on large-scale farms > where the economics are favorable. > > In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw > of inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of > array would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the > power that extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 - 3x the time that > the array size does that stays inside the output limit of the > inverters. This is why I'm not a big fan of dramatically overloading > the inverters, if at all, in your case. Any KW portion of the array > which is above the nameplate kw rating of the inverter is going to > have a longer payback for these reasons. " > > I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don't want to be too loose with > the facts. Comments are appreciated. Thanks. > > > > Kirk Herander > > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > > > www.vermontsolarnow.com > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Jul 13 17:36:58 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 17:36:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] squirrels are so cute Message-ID: <012e01d1dd4e$afbde3a0$0f39aae0$@icloud.com> I got a call from a customer saying there was a leak in their kitchen under the array. MMMM... I wonder why. Chewed-through shingles, ice/snow shield, plywood, and part of the rafters. Fiberglass was everywhere. Definitely makes a case for rodent-proofing arrays. Easy to talk the customer into. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 139024 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Jul 13 20:46:43 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 18:46:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] squirrels are so cute In-Reply-To: <012e01d1dd4e$afbde3a0$0f39aae0$@icloud.com> References: <012e01d1dd4e$afbde3a0$0f39aae0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Wow! How old is that array? Might be a good idea to contact any other clients of yours in the area, to give them a heads up ....and maybe push the rodent guard up-sell. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 13, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > > I got a call from a customer saying there was a leak in their kitchen under the array. MMMM….. I wonder why. > Chewed-through shingles, ice/snow shield, plywood, and part of the rafters. Fiberglass was everywhere. > Definitely makes a case for rodent-proofing arrays. Easy to talk the customer into. > > > > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 20:07:09 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 20:07:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter In-Reply-To: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> References: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> Message-ID: In high temperature locations such as the Caribbean, where we are, the modules run at about 40C during midday. Combine the temperature derate with losses for dust, cabling, azimuth and tilt, it makes sense to add ten to twenty percent more PV. Given that the string design is never perfect, I would rather go a little over than way under. When we were installing 240W modules on European Sunny Tripower 20KW units using 1,000V PV designs, we could either go with three strings = 18KW or 4 strings = 24KW. The three strings would have seriously underpowered the inverter. On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello folks, > > I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. It > seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW array than > the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is to generate > more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I don’t feel is > justified. My opinion of this particular big-box installer I will keep to > myself. My response to the customer, trying to keep it simple: > > > > “On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. > For instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an > input. Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and > technical reasons. > > On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. > Power output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the > afternoon. In my example, the inverter can’t output more than 10 kw AC. > What overloading the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. > generating more power in the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the peak > at 10kw on either side of noon. So there is power to be gained in morning > and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if conditions allow the peak output > to be reached), since the 12 kw array can never be converted to more than > 10 kw of AC power. Depending upon time of year(ambient / cell temperature) > and weather conditions, the peak may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours > a day. So you are both gaining and losing power using this method. And > typically the inverters are only overloaded in this manner on large-scale > farms where the economics are favorable. > > In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw of > inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of array > would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the power that > extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 – 3x the time that the array size > does that stays inside the output limit of the inverters. This is why I’m > not a big fan of dramatically overloading the inverters, if at all, in > your case. *Any KW portion of the array which is above the nameplate kw > rating of the inverter is going to have a longer payback for these reasons. > “* > > I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don’t want to be too loose with the > facts. Comments are appreciated. Thanks. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Jul 15 09:34:58 2016 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 09:34:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 References: <7ed4375cd9643ac17725ead62ee3908b@mail.gmail.com><2ed157dd-43fe-302a-f598-e7955523c398@psln.com> Message-ID: Fellow Wrenchers Has anyone installed a solar array for a Marina where their customers buy power indirectly or directly from the Marina to keep their boats operational when docked. What challenges did you have if any from the local power companies by adding solar? thx peter Giroux ASAE Atlanta ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lones Tuss" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 > Hello Bill > Doing so presents no problem to the system or the Mate3. > > > Lones Tuss > Applications Engineer > OutBack Power Technologies > 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 > 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell > www.outbackpower.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 9:08 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 > > Folks, > > I'd like to leave the Mate3 at the OB pre-assembled power center > but be able to turn on-off the inverter at a remote location 50 feet away. > I assume I can still run some com wire of some kind to a push switch or > toggle? connected to the inverter on-off landing of the control wiring > terminal block in the AC side of the inverter. Will the > Mate3 complain if on-off is done this way? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mikek at spiritsolar.net Fri Jul 15 21:28:40 2016 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 21:28:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <000901d1df01$62999a10$27ccce30$@net> I used to think exactly like Kirk, in that I would design the DC array size to match the inverter size, figuring why clip potential output. However, when you have 1000W/m2 shining down on the modules, a crystalline silicone module will heat up about 30C above ambient, and dropping your output by about 12% to 15%. As outlined by Chris, adding other loss factors and you will probably never clip in the summertime even if you are 15% greater with DC module rating vs AC inverter rating. The benefits of keeping a higher DC power to AC power ratio allows the inverter to operate closer to peak efficiency during low light levels, startup and near power down conditions. Also, as the modules degrade over time, the ratio will drop. So does having the added available power earlier in the morning and later in the day keep the inverter on longer to produce more power during those times than the power lost due to noontime clipping in the winter? Conventional wisdom says yes. (Here I am trusting the inverter sizing software designers, and my own experience. The only other drawback is additional heat buildup on the heat sink due to the extra power the inverter is pushing through, which the inverter should be able to handle. Overall I think you are best to design residential systems with a ratio of 1.12 +/- .02 to 1 of DC array size to inverter AC rating. For commercial systems go a bit higher 1.2:1 to 1.25:1. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Phone: 413 883-3144 Spirit Solar www.SpiritSolar.net From: Chris Mason [mailto:cometenergysystems at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 8:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter In high temperature locations such as the Caribbean, where we are, the modules run at about 40C during midday. Combine the temperature derate with losses for dust, cabling, azimuth and tilt, it makes sense to add ten to twenty percent more PV. Given that the string design is never perfect, I would rather go a little over than way under. When we were installing 240W modules on European Sunny Tripower 20KW units using 1,000V PV designs, we could either go with three strings = 18KW or 4 strings = 24KW. The three strings would have seriously underpowered the inverter. On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello folks, I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. It seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW array than the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is to generate more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I don’t feel is justified. My opinion of this particular big-box installer I will keep to myself. My response to the customer, trying to keep it simple: “On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. For instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an input. Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and technical reasons. On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. Power output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the afternoon. In my example, the inverter can’t output more than 10 kw AC. What overloading the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. generating more power in the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the peak at 10kw on either side of noon. So there is power to be gained in morning and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if conditions allow the peak output to be reached), since the 12 kw array can never be converted to more than 10 kw of AC power. Depending upon time of year(ambient / cell temperature) and weather conditions, the peak may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours a day. So you are both gaining and losing power using this method. And typically the inverters are only overloaded in this manner on large-scale farms where the economics are favorable. In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw of inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of array would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the power that extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 – 3x the time that the array size does that stays inside the output limit of the inverters. This is why I’m not a big fan of dramatically overloading the inverters, if at all, in your case. Any KW portion of the array which is above the nameplate kw rating of the inverter is going to have a longer payback for these reasons. “ I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don’t want to be too loose with the facts. Comments are appreciated. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Jul 17 16:57:53 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:57:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV wire for TLs In-Reply-To: References: <7ed4375cd9643ac17725ead62ee3908b@mail.gmail.com> <2ed157dd-43fe-302a-f598-e7955523c398@psln.com> Message-ID: <89cfbd2f-9142-bf1f-9257-bde5899957dd@psln.com> Wrenches, In reference to SMA TL inverters, 600VDC residential installs, my supplier has advised me that 600 volt double jacketed PV wire is out and the way to go is 1000 volt PV wire. Comments? Will I be able to use my stock of H4 connectors with the 1000V PV wire? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net since 1982 From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 20:25:36 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 19:25:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter In-Reply-To: <00ff01d1dd46$61d2cff0$25786fd0$@icloud.com> References: <00c301d1dd39$1af20cc0$50d62640$@icloud.com> <00ff01d1dd46$61d2cff0$25786fd0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <5976CA27-BFEB-4201-8422-51489A3B8112@gmail.com> This thread show how this idea is really a site by site issue. Two winters ago we had something like 40+ days with temps below zero (-45F the coldest) while in the summer temps tend to be near STC very often. My Tigo system at home shows the DC side of my system (210W modules) producing 220-250W regularly during those cold winter months. I try take that into account when designing a system. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 13, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Of the many Enphase systems I've done, clipping is a regular issue in > wintertime Vermont, especially with the older micros whose output wattage > ran way below the max. panel wattage. I've seen clipping for 3 hours or more > on super-cold, crystal clear days, with customer complaints about not being > able to harness the peak . The DC:AC ratio of greater than 1 may also not be > advantageous when using module based electronics, ala Solaredge, since the > claim of 5 -7 % greater dc to ac conversion over a string inverter appears > to hold true in my experience. You may be already getting the gains which > overloading will accomplish, making overloading unfeasible economically. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Matt Partymiller > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 4:16 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter > > Kirk, > > I would recommend you consider using a tool like PVsyst or Helioscope to > model DC:AC ratios. A quick modeling of roughly 200 kW on three Solectria > 50 kW inverters shows about 1.3% clipping here. > > It then comes down to analysis of your costs for additional modules, dc > wiring, and inverters. > > Admittedly I sit on the opposite side of the fence. I try to provide at > least a 1.2 ratio to minimize cost per kWh. I am not aware of any large > scale studies comparing PVsyst or Helioscope clipping projections to real > world performance. I can tell you that our arrays with monitoring and a > ~1.2 DC:AC ratio perform as well as our older 1:1 systems. Not that I use > Enphase often but they have some research/whitepapers on the topic since > their micros tend to undershoot 60 cell module power ratings. > > Good luck! > > > Matt > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > >> On Wed, July 13, 2016 3:02 pm, Kirk Herander wrote: >> Hello folks, >> >> >> I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. >> It seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW >> array than the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is >> to generate more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I >> don't feel is justified. My opinion of this particular big-box >> installer I will keep to myself. My response to the customer, trying to > keep it simple: >> >> >> >> "On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor. >> For >> instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an input. >> Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and >> technical reasons. >> >> On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve. >> Power >> output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the afternoon. >> In my example, the inverter can't output more than 10 kw AC. What >> overloading the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. >> generating more power in the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the >> peak at 10kw on either side of noon. So there is power to be gained in >> morning and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if conditions allow the >> peak output to be reached), since the 12 kw array can never be converted > to more than 10 kw of AC power. >> Depending upon >> time of year(ambient / cell temperature) and weather conditions, the >> peak may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours a day. So you are both >> gaining and losing power using this method. And typically the >> inverters are only overloaded in this manner on large-scale farms >> where the economics are favorable. >> >> In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw >> of inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of >> array would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the >> power that extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 - 3x the time that >> the array size does that stays inside the output limit of the >> inverters. This is why I'm not a big fan of dramatically overloading >> the inverters, if at all, in your case. Any KW portion of the array >> which is above the nameplate kw rating of the inverter is going to >> have a longer payback for these reasons. " >> >> I feel my reasoning is sound, But I don't want to be too loose with >> the facts. Comments are appreciated. Thanks. >> >> >> >> Kirk Herander >> >> >> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >> >> >> Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 >> >> >> www.vermontsolarnow.com >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant >> >> >> VT RE Incentive Program Partner >> >> >> 802.863.1202 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .ht >> ml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From reellison at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 18:25:17 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 18:25:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] US Solar Message-ID: Is anybody having problems contacting US solar? I've tried three different phones and two different numbers with no success Just wondering, Bob Ellison From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 18:56:00 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 16:56:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank Message-ID: Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm thinking software setting. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Jul 18 19:23:35 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 18:23:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> Dan Does the inverter go silent at night? (---) on the inverter display? There are lots of settings that can influence sell amount. What type and size is the battery bank? What is the solar size? Thank you, Maverick Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. > On Jul 18, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. > > I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm thinking software setting. > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 19:50:01 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 17:50:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> References: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Maverick; it's 6.0 kW of PV, 2 Midnite Classic 200s, Conext XW+ 5548, and 8 Crown Embassy VRSLA 6CEA390 for 390 amp-hours, 48v. Concerns me to be cycling those batteries every night when it's not supposed to happen as per the permit package. "Notes - Battery Backup: During an outage, an automatic transfer switch in the inverter opens the grid interconnect, isolating the inverter from the utility to prevent back-feeding the local power lines. The inverter then draws from the battery bank to provide AC power to the backup sub-panel. Battery power is only used to provide power to the backup sub-panel. The Battery inverter only sells energy to the grid from the solar array when available and not from the battery bank. The battery backup inverter is UL 1741 and IEEE 1547 compliant." Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > Dan > > Does the inverter go silent at night? (---) on the inverter display? > > There are lots of settings that can influence sell amount. > > What type and size is the battery bank? > > What is the solar size? > > Thank you, > > Maverick > Cell: 512-460-9825 > > Sent from an iPhone. > > On Jul 18, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an > as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are > a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only > 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because > everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery > bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get > the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. > > I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks > here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and > recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard > to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm > thinking software setting. > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Jul 18 20:27:11 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 19:27:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <0F117064-0315-4724-94C8-2A77B1D6D925@mavericksolar.com> Dan Barring some non-factory-default settings, they are not likely running on battery power at night. When the grid is up, the inverter will go silent at night (asleep) [with --- three dashes on its LED display]. That's good. During the day, the inverter will "prevent" the battery voltage from going above its sell voltage (unless some other mode is on like Grid Support or Standby, etc.) The charge controllers will attempt to Absorb & Float, but the inverter will offload the energy by keeping the voltage at the Sell setting. I generally set Sell to the recommended Float Voltage++. I set the charge controller float to 1.0v higher and Absorb as appropriate. There is a lot more to unpack here. Flooded batteries will consume a good amount of power just to maintain float. As a defense against sulphated plates forming, I program the inverter EQ button for a heavy Absorb / mild EQ and instruct the customer to press it (every other month opposite month from watering??) Are you getting 20-25 kWh per day in production? PS having the inverter always feed the critical loads panel is exactly it's intended use. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. > On Jul 18, 2016, at 6:50 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Maverick; it's 6.0 kW of PV, 2 Midnite Classic 200s, Conext XW+ 5548, and 8 Crown Embassy VRSLA 6CEA390 for 390 amp-hours, 48v. Concerns me to be cycling those batteries every night when it's not supposed to happen as per the permit package. > "Notes - Battery Backup: During an outage, an automatic transfer switch in the inverter opens the grid interconnect, isolating the inverter from the utility to prevent back-feeding the local power lines. The inverter then draws from the battery bank to provide AC power to the backup sub-panel. Battery power is only used to provide power to the backup sub-panel. The Battery inverter only sells energy to the grid from the solar array when available and not from the battery bank. The battery backup inverter is UL 1741 and IEEE 1547 compliant." > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > >> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: >> Dan >> >> Does the inverter go silent at night? (---) on the inverter display? >> >> There are lots of settings that can influence sell amount. >> >> What type and size is the battery bank? >> >> What is the solar size? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> Cell: 512-460-9825 >> >> Sent from an iPhone. >> >>> On Jul 18, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> >>> Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. >>> >>> I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm thinking software setting. >>> >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 20:57:00 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 18:57:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: <0F117064-0315-4724-94C8-2A77B1D6D925@mavericksolar.com> References: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> <0F117064-0315-4724-94C8-2A77B1D6D925@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks you for your help. I'm a poor off-grid guy. This should be a learning experience then....the one time I visited the system around 10:AM,, both CCs were in Bulk, and no grid blackout the night before. Methinks I should also borrow a programming dongle from a colleague for this one.... Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > Dan > > Barring some non-factory-default settings, they are not likely running on > battery power at night. > > When the grid is up, the inverter will go silent at night (asleep) [with > --- three dashes on its LED display]. That's good. > > During the day, the inverter will "prevent" the battery voltage from going > above its sell voltage (unless some other mode is on like Grid Support or > Standby, etc.) The charge controllers will attempt to Absorb & Float, but > the inverter will offload the energy by keeping the voltage at the Sell > setting. I generally set Sell to the recommended Float Voltage++. I set the > charge controller float to 1.0v higher and Absorb as appropriate. > > There is a lot more to unpack here. > > Flooded batteries will consume a good amount of power just to maintain > float. > > As a defense against sulphated plates forming, I program the inverter EQ > button for a heavy Absorb / mild EQ and instruct the customer to press it > (every other month opposite month from watering??) > > Are you getting 20-25 kWh per day in production? > > PS having the inverter always feed the critical loads panel is exactly > it's intended use. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > Maverick Brown > > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > SunFlow Systems > Office: 512-919-4493 > Cell: 512-460-9825 > > Sent from an iPhone. > > On Jul 18, 2016, at 6:50 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Maverick; it's 6.0 kW of PV, 2 Midnite Classic 200s, Conext XW+ 5548, and > 8 Crown Embassy VRSLA 6CEA390 for 390 amp-hours, 48v. Concerns me to be > cycling those batteries every night when it's not supposed to happen as per > the permit package. > "Notes - Battery Backup: During an outage, an automatic transfer switch in > the inverter opens the grid interconnect, isolating the inverter from the > utility to prevent back-feeding the local power lines. The inverter then > draws from the battery bank to provide AC power to the backup sub-panel. > Battery power is only used to provide power to the backup sub-panel. The > Battery inverter only sells energy to the grid from the solar array when > available and not from the battery bank. The battery backup inverter is UL > 1741 and IEEE 1547 compliant." > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Maverick Brown < > maverick at mavericksolar.com> wrote: > >> Dan >> >> Does the inverter go silent at night? (---) on the inverter display? >> >> There are lots of settings that can influence sell amount. >> >> What type and size is the battery bank? >> >> What is the solar size? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> Cell: 512-460-9825 >> >> Sent from an iPhone. >> >> On Jul 18, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >> Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an >> as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are >> a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only >> 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because >> everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery >> bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get >> the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. >> >> I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks >> here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and >> recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard >> to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm >> thinking software setting. >> >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Jul 18 21:02:21 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 20:02:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> <0F117064-0315-4724-94C8-2A77B1D6D925@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <82A6666F-02B8-47B5-AC39-A203F56E036B@mavericksolar.com> Dan Does it have System Control Panel (SCP)? If not, it's a must. It's like having an Outback inverter with no Mate or a big LCD TV with no remote. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. > On Jul 18, 2016, at 7:57 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Thanks you for your help. I'm a poor off-grid guy. This should be a learning experience then....the one time I visited the system around 10:AM,, both CCs were in Bulk, and no grid blackout the night before. > Methinks I should also borrow a programming dongle from a colleague for this one.... > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > >> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: >> Dan >> >> Barring some non-factory-default settings, they are not likely running on battery power at night. >> >> When the grid is up, the inverter will go silent at night (asleep) [with --- three dashes on its LED display]. That's good. >> >> During the day, the inverter will "prevent" the battery voltage from going above its sell voltage (unless some other mode is on like Grid Support or Standby, etc.) The charge controllers will attempt to Absorb & Float, but the inverter will offload the energy by keeping the voltage at the Sell setting. I generally set Sell to the recommended Float Voltage++. I set the charge controller float to 1.0v higher and Absorb as appropriate. >> >> There is a lot more to unpack here. >> >> Flooded batteries will consume a good amount of power just to maintain float. >> >> As a defense against sulphated plates forming, I program the inverter EQ button for a heavy Absorb / mild EQ and instruct the customer to press it (every other month opposite month from watering??) >> >> Are you getting 20-25 kWh per day in production? >> >> PS having the inverter always feed the critical loads panel is exactly it's intended use. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> SunFlow Systems >> Office: 512-919-4493 >> Cell: 512-460-9825 >> >> Sent from an iPhone. >> >>> On Jul 18, 2016, at 6:50 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> >>> Maverick; it's 6.0 kW of PV, 2 Midnite Classic 200s, Conext XW+ 5548, and 8 Crown Embassy VRSLA 6CEA390 for 390 amp-hours, 48v. Concerns me to be cycling those batteries every night when it's not supposed to happen as per the permit package. >>> "Notes - Battery Backup: During an outage, an automatic transfer switch in the inverter opens the grid interconnect, isolating the inverter from the utility to prevent back-feeding the local power lines. The inverter then draws from the battery bank to provide AC power to the backup sub-panel. Battery power is only used to provide power to the backup sub-panel. The Battery inverter only sells energy to the grid from the solar array when available and not from the battery bank. The battery backup inverter is UL 1741 and IEEE 1547 compliant." >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> Does the inverter go silent at night? (---) on the inverter display? >>>> >>>> There are lots of settings that can influence sell amount. >>>> >>>> What type and size is the battery bank? >>>> >>>> What is the solar size? >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Maverick >>>> Cell: 512-460-9825 >>>> >>>> Sent from an iPhone. >>>> >>>>> On Jul 18, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. >>>>> >>>>> I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm thinking software setting. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dan Fink >>>>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>>>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>>>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>>>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>>>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>>>> 970.672.4342 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 21:12:17 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 19:12:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: <82A6666F-02B8-47B5-AC39-A203F56E036B@mavericksolar.com> References: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> <0F117064-0315-4724-94C8-2A77B1D6D925@mavericksolar.com> <82A6666F-02B8-47B5-AC39-A203F56E036B@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: It has SCP. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > Dan > > Does it have System Control Panel (SCP)? If not, it's a must. > > It's like having an Outback inverter with no Mate or a big LCD TV with no > remote. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > Maverick Brown > > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > SunFlow Systems > Office: 512-919-4493 > Cell: 512-460-9825 > > Sent from an iPhone. > > On Jul 18, 2016, at 7:57 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Thanks you for your help. I'm a poor off-grid guy. This should be a > learning experience then....the one time I visited the system around > 10:AM,, both CCs were in Bulk, and no grid blackout the night before. > Methinks I should also borrow a programming dongle from a colleague for > this one.... > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Maverick Brown < > maverick at mavericksolar.com> wrote: > >> Dan >> >> Barring some non-factory-default settings, they are not likely running on >> battery power at night. >> >> When the grid is up, the inverter will go silent at night (asleep) [with >> --- three dashes on its LED display]. That's good. >> >> During the day, the inverter will "prevent" the battery voltage from >> going above its sell voltage (unless some other mode is on like Grid >> Support or Standby, etc.) The charge controllers will attempt to Absorb & >> Float, but the inverter will offload the energy by keeping the voltage at >> the Sell setting. I generally set Sell to the recommended Float Voltage++. >> I set the charge controller float to 1.0v higher and Absorb as appropriate. >> >> There is a lot more to unpack here. >> >> Flooded batteries will consume a good amount of power just to maintain >> float. >> >> As a defense against sulphated plates forming, I program the inverter EQ >> button for a heavy Absorb / mild EQ and instruct the customer to press it >> (every other month opposite month from watering??) >> >> Are you getting 20-25 kWh per day in production? >> >> PS having the inverter always feed the critical loads panel is exactly >> it's intended use. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> SunFlow Systems >> Office: 512-919-4493 >> Cell: 512-460-9825 >> >> Sent from an iPhone. >> >> On Jul 18, 2016, at 6:50 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >> Maverick; it's 6.0 kW of PV, 2 Midnite Classic 200s, Conext XW+ 5548, and >> 8 Crown Embassy VRSLA 6CEA390 for 390 amp-hours, 48v. Concerns me to be >> cycling those batteries every night when it's not supposed to happen as per >> the permit package. >> "Notes - Battery Backup: During an outage, an automatic transfer switch >> in the inverter opens the grid interconnect, isolating the inverter from >> the utility to prevent back-feeding the local power lines. The inverter >> then draws from the battery bank to provide AC power to the backup >> sub-panel. Battery power is only used to provide power to the backup >> sub-panel. The Battery inverter only sells energy to the grid from the >> solar array when available and not from the battery bank. The battery >> backup inverter is UL 1741 and IEEE 1547 compliant." >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Maverick Brown < >> maverick at mavericksolar.com> wrote: >> >>> Dan >>> >>> Does the inverter go silent at night? (---) on the inverter display? >>> >>> There are lots of settings that can influence sell amount. >>> >>> What type and size is the battery bank? >>> >>> What is the solar size? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Maverick >>> Cell: 512-460-9825 >>> >>> Sent from an iPhone. >>> >>> On Jul 18, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> >>> Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an >>> as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are >>> a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only >>> 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because >>> everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery >>> bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get >>> the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. >>> >>> I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the >>> folks here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built >>> 3-line, and recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing >>> before? Hard to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the >>> bypass, I'm thinking software setting. >>> >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jul 18 20:21:51 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 17:21:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics Re update Message-ID: Friends: For those of you using or contemplating using Optics RE, here is an update: As many of you know, the Optics RE has been unreliable in maintaining connectivity. There are “approved” connection methods which stipulate no wifi, must be hard-wired with certain data transfer rate. Even with an approved system our Optics connectivity has been very unreliable. So much so that we installed a set of relays on our Control-by-web system to reboot the Mate 3s. I spoke with Outback about this at Intersolar. There is a new firmware revision that is purported to resolve this (.001). We installed this last Friday at one of our sites. Today we found a lot of data gaps. Contacting tech support I learned that there was a server maintenance performed today. I also learned that there are frequent server maintenance sessions occurring in an attempt to fix these problems. If you do not have the new firmware, you may consider installing it. If you see gaps in your data, you can guess as to why. William PS: We have found that if there are manual generator stops the power quality is greatly reduced as compared to Mate initiated generator stops. This is because if the Mate initiates the stop it transfers the power prior to the generator slowing down. This power quality problem can cause problems with modems and routers. We found that certain 12 volt routers and 30 volt modems work just fine on 24 volts DC and are infinitely more reliable. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jul 18 20:11:36 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 17:11:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan: Our early XW systems performed very poorly on sell-back. Updating firmware improved the situation. Updating firmware was painful. It required most of a day for one system. It’s been a while but I posted a list of tips to this forum. I seem to recall the dongle needs AC and off-grid systems shut down while upgrading, making off-grid upgrades a logistic problem. Bring a table for your gear, the dongle, a headset for the long conversations you will have with tech support and your lunch. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink *Sent:* Monday, July 18, 2016 3:56 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm thinking software setting. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 07:44:08 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 07:44:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics Re update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would put the router on a UPS. On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 8:21 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > For those of you using or contemplating using Optics RE, here is an update: > > > > As many of you know, the Optics RE has been unreliable in maintaining > connectivity. There are “approved” connection methods which stipulate no > wifi, must be hard-wired with certain data transfer rate. Even with an > approved system our Optics connectivity has been very unreliable. So much > so that we installed a set of relays on our Control-by-web system to reboot > the Mate 3s. > > > > I spoke with Outback about this at Intersolar. There is a new firmware > revision that is purported to resolve this (.001). We installed this last > Friday at one of our sites. Today we found a lot of data gaps. Contacting > tech support I learned that there was a server maintenance performed > today. I also learned that there are frequent server maintenance sessions > occurring in an attempt to fix these problems. > > > > If you do not have the new firmware, you may consider installing it. If > you see gaps in your data, you can guess as to why. > > > > William > > > > PS: We have found that if there are manual generator stops the power > quality is greatly reduced as compared to Mate initiated generator stops. > This is because if the Mate initiates the stop it transfers the power prior > to the generator slowing down. This power quality problem can cause > problems with modems and routers. We found that certain 12 volt routers > and 30 volt modems work just fine on 24 volts DC and are infinitely more > reliable. > > > > Wm > > > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jul 19 09:43:07 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 06:43:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> <0F117064-0315-4724-94C8-2A77B1D6D925@mavericksolar.com> <82A6666F-02B8-47B5-AC39-A203F56E036B@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <4e9bbd48c70f8e65fb18da708d676f1b@mail.gmail.com> Dan, I went through what sounds like a similar situation with a XW+ recently. Ours had the Schneider charge controllers, not Outback, so I’m not sure how the two would interface in your situation. You should be able to update firmware through the SCP, call Schneider support for help. You basically log into the SCP via a web browser and then download the firmware and update the XW. Schneider tech support was confused internally about what charge/float settings to have us setup for a standard grid tied battery backup system. The first setting they recommended was called two-stage and long story short, it allowed the battery to drain before charging it back up again. We switched the setting to three-stage and now the batteries remain topped of and ready for an unexpected power outage. As others have mentioned, it is the normal setup to have the protected (or critical) loads fed through the XW. However, during normal on-grid operation this is simply an AC pass-through and it shouldn’t discharge the batteries. There are other settings you’ll need to get right as well. As William said, be prepared to talk on the phone for a while with tech support and make it really clear to them how you and the owner *want* the system to function. If it’s like most normal grid tied battery backup systems, the owner wants the batteries topped off in case of an unexpected power outage (this charging comes from the AC side when the grid is up) and then wants to feed all the PV energy to loads and back to the grid just like a normal grid tied inverter. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink *Sent:* Monday, July 18, 2016 6:12 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank It has SCP. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: Dan Does it have System Control Panel (SCP)? If not, it's a must. It's like having an Outback inverter with no Mate or a big LCD TV with no remote. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Jul 18, 2016, at 7:57 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Thanks you for your help. I'm a poor off-grid guy. This should be a learning experience then....the one time I visited the system around 10:AM,, both CCs were in Bulk, and no grid blackout the night before. Methinks I should also borrow a programming dongle from a colleague for this one.... Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: Dan Barring some non-factory-default settings, they are not likely running on battery power at night. When the grid is up, the inverter will go silent at night (asleep) [with --- three dashes on its LED display]. That's good. During the day, the inverter will "prevent" the battery voltage from going above its sell voltage (unless some other mode is on like Grid Support or Standby, etc.) The charge controllers will attempt to Absorb & Float, but the inverter will offload the energy by keeping the voltage at the Sell setting. I generally set Sell to the recommended Float Voltage++. I set the charge controller float to 1.0v higher and Absorb as appropriate. There is a lot more to unpack here. Flooded batteries will consume a good amount of power just to maintain float. As a defense against sulphated plates forming, I program the inverter EQ button for a heavy Absorb / mild EQ and instruct the customer to press it (every other month opposite month from watering??) Are you getting 20-25 kWh per day in production? PS having the inverter always feed the critical loads panel is exactly it's intended use. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Jul 18, 2016, at 6:50 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Maverick; it's 6.0 kW of PV, 2 Midnite Classic 200s, Conext XW+ 5548, and 8 Crown Embassy VRSLA 6CEA390 for 390 amp-hours, 48v. Concerns me to be cycling those batteries every night when it's not supposed to happen as per the permit package. "Notes - Battery Backup: During an outage, an automatic transfer switch in the inverter opens the grid interconnect, isolating the inverter from the utility to prevent back-feeding the local power lines. The inverter then draws from the battery bank to provide AC power to the backup sub-panel. Battery power is only used to provide power to the backup sub-panel. The Battery inverter only sells energy to the grid from the solar array when available and not from the battery bank. The battery backup inverter is UL 1741 and IEEE 1547 compliant." Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: Dan Does the inverter go silent at night? (---) on the inverter display? There are lots of settings that can influence sell amount. What type and size is the battery bank? What is the solar size? Thank you, Maverick Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Jul 18, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm thinking software setting. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 11:00:07 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 11:00:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid ShutDown Requirement Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I am working on a ballasted roof mount system. 46 kW using four roof mounted Fronius 10.0-3 208V inverters. The system consists of 4 sub-arrays with one inverter for each sub array. Discussing the rapid shutdown requirements with a colleague he said if we keep the inverters located within 10 ft of the array we do not need to add any rapid shutdown devices. The inverter AC ouput disconnects would satisfy the requirement. Does that match your understanding? Thanks in advance Carl Adams President, SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jul 19 13:55:02 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:55:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: <4e9bbd48c70f8e65fb18da708d676f1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> <0F117064-0315-4724-94C8-2A77B1D6D925@mavericksolar.com> <82A6666F-02B8-47B5-AC39-A203F56E036B@mavericksolar.com> <4e9bbd48c70f8e65fb18da708d676f1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4a5fe36ecef07afe15f56053d53af846@mail.gmail.com> Hi All – Maverick just clarified that the SCP might not be enough to update the firmware. I was thinking of the ComBox. I’m certainly no XW expert, but I know that I updated the firmware on one system that had both a SCP and a ComBox. Sorry for possible confusion! Best, August *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:43 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank Dan, I went through what sounds like a similar situation with a XW+ recently. Ours had the Schneider charge controllers, not Outback, so I’m not sure how the two would interface in your situation. You should be able to update firmware through the SCP, call Schneider support for help. You basically log into the SCP via a web browser and then download the firmware and update the XW. Schneider tech support was confused internally about what charge/float settings to have us setup for a standard grid tied battery backup system. The first setting they recommended was called two-stage and long story short, it allowed the battery to drain before charging it back up again. We switched the setting to three-stage and now the batteries remain topped of and ready for an unexpected power outage. As others have mentioned, it is the normal setup to have the protected (or critical) loads fed through the XW. However, during normal on-grid operation this is simply an AC pass-through and it shouldn’t discharge the batteries. There are other settings you’ll need to get right as well. As William said, be prepared to talk on the phone for a while with tech support and make it really clear to them how you and the owner *want* the system to function. If it’s like most normal grid tied battery backup systems, the owner wants the batteries topped off in case of an unexpected power outage (this charging comes from the AC side when the grid is up) and then wants to feed all the PV energy to loads and back to the grid just like a normal grid tied inverter. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink *Sent:* Monday, July 18, 2016 6:12 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank It has SCP. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: Dan Does it have System Control Panel (SCP)? If not, it's a must. It's like having an Outback inverter with no Mate or a big LCD TV with no remote. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Jul 18, 2016, at 7:57 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Thanks you for your help. I'm a poor off-grid guy. This should be a learning experience then....the one time I visited the system around 10:AM,, both CCs were in Bulk, and no grid blackout the night before. Methinks I should also borrow a programming dongle from a colleague for this one.... Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: Dan Barring some non-factory-default settings, they are not likely running on battery power at night. When the grid is up, the inverter will go silent at night (asleep) [with --- three dashes on its LED display]. That's good. During the day, the inverter will "prevent" the battery voltage from going above its sell voltage (unless some other mode is on like Grid Support or Standby, etc.) The charge controllers will attempt to Absorb & Float, but the inverter will offload the energy by keeping the voltage at the Sell setting. I generally set Sell to the recommended Float Voltage++. I set the charge controller float to 1.0v higher and Absorb as appropriate. There is a lot more to unpack here. Flooded batteries will consume a good amount of power just to maintain float. As a defense against sulphated plates forming, I program the inverter EQ button for a heavy Absorb / mild EQ and instruct the customer to press it (every other month opposite month from watering??) Are you getting 20-25 kWh per day in production? PS having the inverter always feed the critical loads panel is exactly it's intended use. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Jul 18, 2016, at 6:50 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Maverick; it's 6.0 kW of PV, 2 Midnite Classic 200s, Conext XW+ 5548, and 8 Crown Embassy VRSLA 6CEA390 for 390 amp-hours, 48v. Concerns me to be cycling those batteries every night when it's not supposed to happen as per the permit package. "Notes - Battery Backup: During an outage, an automatic transfer switch in the inverter opens the grid interconnect, isolating the inverter from the utility to prevent back-feeding the local power lines. The inverter then draws from the battery bank to provide AC power to the backup sub-panel. Battery power is only used to provide power to the backup sub-panel. The Battery inverter only sells energy to the grid from the solar array when available and not from the battery bank. The battery backup inverter is UL 1741 and IEEE 1547 compliant." Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: Dan Does the inverter go silent at night? (---) on the inverter display? There are lots of settings that can influence sell amount. What type and size is the battery bank? What is the solar size? Thank you, Maverick Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Jul 18, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm thinking software setting. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Jul 19 15:57:01 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 19:57:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank In-Reply-To: <4e9bbd48c70f8e65fb18da708d676f1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20B3E088-308C-4C0C-AC8C-97FF05D393B5@mavericksolar.com> <0F117064-0315-4724-94C8-2A77B1D6D925@mavericksolar.com> <82A6666F-02B8-47B5-AC39-A203F56E036B@mavericksolar.com> <4e9bbd48c70f8e65fb18da708d676f1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi August, From my knowledge on the XW there is no means to update firmware through the SCP, nor is there a means to log into the SCP via web browser. Perhaps you are thinking of systems that have the Combox installed which does add that functionality. That device allows for very simple and (so far) failure-free firmware upgrades. I have recently completed several remote upgrades - ie ship the customer the pre-programmed Combox and have them connect it to Xanbus / Internet and I execute the updates remotely - takes about 15 minutes for a system with numerous devices. The inverter will power down during this upgrade so do need to plan for that. (a good time to use the inverter bypass and run off generator directly). The USB dongle is self-powered by Xanbus, and it does have a DC input if you were using it to program a standalone device such as the AGS module which does not have its own power supply. It can be programmed using XW Config Pro (simpler, more foolproof) or XDT which is much more powerful and capable of causing havoc if not used correctly. The programming can be tricky and confusing for this type of set up. Once figured out, it does work well in this configuration. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: July-19-16 6:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank Dan, I went through what sounds like a similar situation with a XW+ recently. Ours had the Schneider charge controllers, not Outback, so I’m not sure how the two would interface in your situation. You should be able to update firmware through the SCP, call Schneider support for help. You basically log into the SCP via a web browser and then download the firmware and update the XW. Schneider tech support was confused internally about what charge/float settings to have us setup for a standard grid tied battery backup system. The first setting they recommended was called two-stage and long story short, it allowed the battery to drain before charging it back up again. We switched the setting to three-stage and now the batteries remain topped of and ready for an unexpected power outage. As others have mentioned, it is the normal setup to have the protected (or critical) loads fed through the XW. However, during normal on-grid operation this is simply an AC pass-through and it shouldn’t discharge the batteries. There are other settings you’ll need to get right as well. As William said, be prepared to talk on the phone for a while with tech support and make it really clear to them how you and the owner want the system to function. If it’s like most normal grid tied battery backup systems, the owner wants the batteries topped off in case of an unexpected power outage (this charging comes from the AC side when the grid is up) and then wants to feed all the PV energy to loads and back to the grid just like a normal grid tied inverter. Best, August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 6:12 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW+ always feeding critical loads subpanel from battery bank It has SCP. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Maverick Brown > wrote: Dan Does it have System Control Panel (SCP)? If not, it's a must. It's like having an Outback inverter with no Mate or a big LCD TV with no remote. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Jul 18, 2016, at 7:57 PM, Dan Fink > wrote: Thanks you for your help. I'm a poor off-grid guy. This should be a learning experience then....the one time I visited the system around 10:AM,, both CCs were in Bulk, and no grid blackout the night before. Methinks I should also borrow a programming dongle from a colleague for this one.... Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Maverick Brown > wrote: Dan Barring some non-factory-default settings, they are not likely running on battery power at night. When the grid is up, the inverter will go silent at night (asleep) [with --- three dashes on its LED display]. That's good. During the day, the inverter will "prevent" the battery voltage from going above its sell voltage (unless some other mode is on like Grid Support or Standby, etc.) The charge controllers will attempt to Absorb & Float, but the inverter will offload the energy by keeping the voltage at the Sell setting. I generally set Sell to the recommended Float Voltage++. I set the charge controller float to 1.0v higher and Absorb as appropriate. There is a lot more to unpack here. Flooded batteries will consume a good amount of power just to maintain float. As a defense against sulphated plates forming, I program the inverter EQ button for a heavy Absorb / mild EQ and instruct the customer to press it (every other month opposite month from watering??) Are you getting 20-25 kWh per day in production? PS having the inverter always feed the critical loads panel is exactly it's intended use. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Jul 18, 2016, at 6:50 PM, Dan Fink > wrote: Maverick; it's 6.0 kW of PV, 2 Midnite Classic 200s, Conext XW+ 5548, and 8 Crown Embassy VRSLA 6CEA390 for 390 amp-hours, 48v. Concerns me to be cycling those batteries every night when it's not supposed to happen as per the permit package. "Notes - Battery Backup: During an outage, an automatic transfer switch in the inverter opens the grid interconnect, isolating the inverter from the utility to prevent back-feeding the local power lines. The inverter then draws from the battery bank to provide AC power to the backup sub-panel. Battery power is only used to provide power to the backup sub-panel. The Battery inverter only sells energy to the grid from the solar array when available and not from the battery bank. The battery backup inverter is UL 1741 and IEEE 1547 compliant." Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Maverick Brown > wrote: Dan Does the inverter go silent at night? (---) on the inverter display? There are lots of settings that can influence sell amount. What type and size is the battery bank? What is the solar size? Thank you, Maverick Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Jul 18, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Dan Fink > wrote: Installer went out of business, all I have to troubleshoot with is an as-built 3-line that "may or may not be right." The charge controllers are a pair Midnite Classic 200s. Customer complained that system selling only 2/3 of what was predicted back to the utility; that appears to be because everything out of his critical loads subpanel is running off the battery bank all night, every night, grid or no, so it takes 1/3 of the day to get the batteries charged up again every day and start selling to the grid. I have very little experience with the XW+ thus my question for the folks here. My plan for next week is to show up, make my own as-built 3-line, and recommission the inverter. Anyone else seen this sort of thing before? Hard to believe that an electrician would mis-wire or not wire the bypass, I'm thinking software setting. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at mountainpowersolutions.com Wed Jul 20 10:31:21 2016 From: steve at mountainpowersolutions.com (Steve Romo) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 08:31:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array on different roof Message-ID: Good morning wrenches, We have a customer with two separate meters on his property. One for the shop and one for the house. We would like to do a system on each meter ( the utility limits us to 10 kW on each meter) The house roof is great for solar, the shop- not so much. So we would like to put both systems on the house roof and back feed both meters individually. Is there anything in the NEC that prohibits this? Thanks -- Steve Romo NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 Kohler Certified Generator Technician Generac Certified Generator Technician Mountain Power Solutions 970-433-6316 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Wed Jul 20 11:03:30 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:03:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array on different roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know if there's anything in the NEC but I've had two problems with the utility in scenarios like this. First is I've had utilities who won't let you connect two different systems to two different meters on the same property. Second the utility wouldn't allow a system on one building with it's own meter to connect to a meter on a different building. I'd suggest you ask the utility what their policy is. Good Luck, Will White -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-309 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Steve Romo < steve at mountainpowersolutions.com> wrote: > Good morning wrenches, > > We have a customer with two separate meters on his property. One for the > shop and one for the house. We would like to do a system on each meter ( > the utility limits us to 10 kW on each meter) The house roof is great for > solar, the shop- not so much. So we would like to put both systems on the > house roof and back feed both meters individually. Is there anything in the > NEC that prohibits this? > > Thanks > -- > Steve Romo > NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 > Kohler Certified Generator Technician > Generac Certified Generator Technician > Mountain Power Solutions > 970-433-6316 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-309 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 11:19:23 2016 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (SES) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 08:19:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array on different roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In Oregon, where net metering is mandated, we have aggregate metering. This means that if you have multiple meters on the same site that belong to the same owner and address that the power produced in excess of what is consumed on 1 meter is automatically applied to the power consumed by the other meter. This may be your solution. > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > President > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > Since 1987, > Moving Portland and Beyond > to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. > 503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > "Better one's House too little one day > than too big all the Year after." > On Jul 20, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Will White wrote: > > I don't know if there's anything in the NEC but I've had two problems with the utility in scenarios like this. First is I've had utilities who won't let you connect two different systems to two different meters on the same property. Second the utility wouldn't allow a system on one building with it's own meter to connect to a meter on a different building. > > I'd suggest you ask the utility what their policy is. > > Good Luck, > Will White > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-309 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > >> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Steve Romo wrote: >> Good morning wrenches, >> >> We have a customer with two separate meters on his property. One for the shop and one for the house. We would like to do a system on each meter ( the utility limits us to 10 kW on each meter) The house roof is great for solar, the shop- not so much. So we would like to put both systems on the house roof and back feed both meters individually. Is there anything in the NEC that prohibits this? >> >> Thanks >> -- >> Steve Romo >> NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 >> Kohler Certified Generator Technician >> Generac Certified Generator Technician >> Mountain Power Solutions >> 970-433-6316 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-309 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at gridalternatives.org Wed Jul 20 15:12:31 2016 From: bruce at gridalternatives.org (Bruce Leininger) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 12:12:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California AB2188 and Streamlined Permit App Message-ID: <7c5cde51-d774-468e-e001-b286fdedcff1@gridalternatives.org> With the passage of AB2188 we were hoping that we could use a standard autofill permit application for all of the jurisdictions that we work in. In reality our experience has been that each jurisdiction has adopted their own flavor of the streamlined permit app, so we need to continue using a different app for each one. Have others found that they can use a single permit app for multiple jurisdictions? Thanks. Bruce From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jul 20 16:52:07 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 16:52:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries Message-ID: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to recommend them or warn against using them? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 17:00:56 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:00:56 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160720205216.43B6A10439@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too. On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion > Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an > inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to > recommend them or warn against using them? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at gridalternatives.org Thu Jul 21 15:25:34 2016 From: bruce at gridalternatives.org (Bruce Leininger) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 12:25:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California AB2188 and Streamlined Permit App Message-ID: <5b8fe2c2-3f90-e600-ff32-99ca400d9537@gridalternatives.org> With the passage of AB2188 we were hoping that we could use a standard autofill permit application for all of the jurisdictions that we work in. In reality our experience has been that each jurisdiction has adopted their own flavor of the streamlined permit app, so we need to continue using a different app for each one. Have others found that they can use a single permit app for multiple jurisdictions? Thanks. Bruce From august at luminalt.com Thu Jul 21 17:18:03 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 14:18:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California AB2188 and Streamlined Permit App In-Reply-To: <5b8fe2c2-3f90-e600-ff32-99ca400d9537@gridalternatives.org> References: <5b8fe2c2-3f90-e600-ff32-99ca400d9537@gridalternatives.org> Message-ID: <11f4c6913170db7c26e62506868aa4d1@mail.gmail.com> Hi Bruce, We haven't run into multiple jurisdictions in the Bay using the same application forms, although there is a slow convergence of similarities in what jurisdictions are requiring. More and more jurisdictions are allowing us to email in plans, however. I believe Grid Alternatives is a CALSEIA member. CALSEIA has a permitting committee focusing on streamlining the permitting process in California. You might want to check them out if you haven't already. Here is a little more info, including a permitting survey: http://calseia.org/lowering-soft-costs/ Best, August Luminalt -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Leininger Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 12:26 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] California AB2188 and Streamlined Permit App With the passage of AB2188 we were hoping that we could use a standard autofill permit application for all of the jurisdictions that we work in. In reality our experience has been that each jurisdiction has adopted their own flavor of the streamlined permit app, so we need to continue using a different app for each one. Have others found that they can use a single permit app for multiple jurisdictions? Thanks. Bruce _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Gary at SYVSolar.com Thu Jul 21 21:43:20 2016 From: Gary at SYVSolar.com (Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 18:43:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters Message-ID: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. Gary Gary Gordon cid:image001.jpg at 01D06621.23813A90 www.SYVSolar.com PO Box 688 Santa Ynez, CA 93460 805 688-1213 NABCEP Certified Installer CA Licensed Solar Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 22:35:41 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 20:35:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E requirements In-Reply-To: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> Message-ID: HI All, I”m trying to confirm if current PGE intertie systems have to be TOU. They were just moved to E-6 rate. They were on E-1 before. I”ve got a customer who installed one last year. But they never got the notification about required changes to rates. I think because they were not on “smart”meter. Can anyone help me with what this persons options are? thanks jay peltz power From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 00:19:33 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 18:19:33 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> Message-ID: Wrenches We have been replacing TL type inverters for years now, what we do is bring them up to current code or standards which ever is greater, permitted and all. DC wire must be correct or its replaced, not a problem there, now there is a neutral wire. As long as everything is compliant l dont know of an issue, what am l missing. Jerry On Jul 21, 2016 3:43 PM, "Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar" < Gary at syvsolar.com> wrote: > We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters > when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to > replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could > be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation > purposes? Not clear on the concept. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > Gary Gordon > > > > [image: cid:image001.jpg at 01D06621.23813A90] > > www.SYVSolar.com > > PO Box 688 > > Santa Ynez, CA 93460 > > 805 688-1213 > > NABCEP Certified Installer > > CA Licensed Solar Contractor > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jul 22 07:26:18 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 07:26:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypassing a broken PV module Message-ID: I came across shattered glass on an Evergreen PV module while doing a new homeowner system evaluation. My inclination is to remove the panel and bypass it, which would still leave the array well within the operating parameters for the inverter. However, the owner wants to just leave the panel physically in the array because it actually looks better that way, which I agree it does. You can hardly tell it's broken from ground level. I explained that there is a risk of a ground fault if the module is left physically in the array, but the owner who is pretty astute, mentioned that the fault voltage if a ground fault were to occur from that module would only be at 22.5V potential (he didn't mention the actual voltage, but he did correctly state that the maximum fault would be limited to the single module, which in this case is 22.5V @ 12A). While it may trip an inverter, it would probably not pose a safety risk. While he may be technically right, for now I have reused to do the work, but I told him I would think about it. Anyone been through this scenario? ​Jason Szumlanski ​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Jul 22 07:33:14 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 07:33:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> Message-ID: Jerry, what do you do about the module whips which are not double insulated? Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Jul 22, 2016 12:20 AM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > Wrenches > We have been replacing TL type inverters for years now, what we do is > bring them up to current code or standards which ever is greater, permitted > and all. DC wire must be correct or its replaced, not a problem there, now > there is a neutral wire. As long as everything is compliant l dont know of > an issue, what am l missing. > Jerry > > On Jul 21, 2016 3:43 PM, "Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar" < > Gary at syvsolar.com> wrote: > >> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters >> when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to >> replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could >> be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation >> purposes? Not clear on the concept. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary Gordon >> >> >> >> [image: cid:image001.jpg at 01D06621.23813A90] >> >> www.SYVSolar.com >> >> PO Box 688 >> >> Santa Ynez, CA 93460 >> >> 805 688-1213 >> >> NABCEP Certified Installer >> >> CA Licensed Solar Contractor >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jul 22 08:11:46 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:11:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypassing a broken PV module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160722121248.2C8CD10297@che.dreamhost.com> If it will be removed electrically from the system, perhaps you can come up with a way to apply a clear sealant coating across the face of the module to decrease further degradation by the elements. -----Original Message----- From: "Jason Szumlanski" Sent: ‎7/‎22/‎2016 7:26 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypassing a broken PV module I came across shattered glass on an Evergreen PV module while doing a new homeowner system evaluation. My inclination is to remove the panel and bypass it, which would still leave the array well within the operating parameters for the inverter. However, the owner wants to just leave the panel physically in the array because it actually looks better that way, which I agree it does. You can hardly tell it's broken from ground level. I explained that there is a risk of a ground fault if the module is left physically in the array, but the owner who is pretty astute, mentioned that the fault voltage if a ground fault were to occur from that module would only be at 22.5V potential (he didn't mention the actual voltage, but he did correctly state that the maximum fault would be limited to the single module, which in this case is 22.5V @ 12A). While it may trip an inverter, it would probably not pose a safety risk. While he may be technically right, for now I have reused to do the work, but I told him I would think about it. Anyone been through this scenario? ​Jason Szumlanski ​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jul 22 08:08:03 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:08:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> Message-ID: <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward. It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, however. -----Original Message----- From: "Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar" Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. Gary Gary Gordon cid:image001.jpg at 01D06621.23813A90 www.SYVSolar.com PO Box 688 Santa Ynez, CA 93460 805 688-1213 NABCEP Certified Installer CA Licensed Solar Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Jul 22 09:29:12 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 06:29:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E requirements In-Reply-To: References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> Message-ID: <30775eea-81bc-9cd1-d2e7-a4a01a2f2989@psln.com> Jay, I've got to run out the door but CALSEIA has info on this. Bill On 7/21/2016 7:35 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I”m trying to confirm if current PGE intertie systems have to be TOU. > > They were just moved to E-6 rate. They were on E-1 before. > > I”ve got a customer who installed one last year. > But they never got the notification about required changes to rates. > I think because they were not on “smart”meter. > > Can anyone help me with what this persons options are? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net From august at luminalt.com Fri Jul 22 09:43:51 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 06:43:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <0f76055413423794dbf27e3dbd99bad8@mail.gmail.com> This topic came up on the list previously. Since isolated transformer based inverters are going the way of the dodo, the only reasonable inverter upgrade choice is to replace old inverters with new transformerless models. As was previously pointed out here, these modern inverters have much more robust ground fault and arc fault detection capabilities, so they’re safer anyway. We just phase tape up the previously grounded white DC conductor(s), make sure the positive and negatives on the DC side are switched, and call it a day. I realize that some of the NEC technicalities are being bent here, but this solution is the lesser of evils. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward. It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, however. ------------------------------ *From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar *Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. Gary Gary Gordon [image: cid:image001.jpg at 01D06621.23813A90] www.SYVSolar.com PO Box 688 Santa Ynez, CA 93460 805 688-1213 NABCEP Certified Installer CA Licensed Solar Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jul 22 09:52:10 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 06:52:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E requirements In-Reply-To: References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> Message-ID: Jay, Current NEM 1.0 customers are not required to go TOU. NEM 2.0 will require mandatory TOU. E-6 is closed for new applicants - if your client is already on E-6, I highly suggest that they stay on it as it is an excellent solar rate unless they have low afternoon production or very high afternoon loads compared to their solar production. If they switch off E-6, they won't be able to go back. E-1 is still an option. I believe the new E-TOU rates are now available, but they are not very favorable especially compared to E-6. Best, August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 7:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E requirements HI All, I”m trying to confirm if current PGE intertie systems have to be TOU. They were just moved to E-6 rate. They were on E-1 before. I”ve got a customer who installed one last year. But they never got the notification about required changes to rates. I think because they were not on “smart”meter. Can anyone help me with what this persons options are? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From august at luminalt.com Fri Jul 22 10:23:13 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 07:23:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> Glen, It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward. It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, however. ------------------------------ *From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar *Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. Gary Gary Gordon [image: cid:image001.jpg at 01D06621.23813A90] www.SYVSolar.com PO Box 688 Santa Ynez, CA 93460 805 688-1213 NABCEP Certified Installer CA Licensed Solar Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 13:34:14 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 07:34:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> Message-ID: In most cases the modules have the thick double insulated whips, now with some of the older trinas we replaced the whips as they as field serviceable, as I recall the sharps have not been a problem. there can be an issue when we get to the old Jbox hard wire systems Jerry On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 1:33 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Jerry, what do you do about the module whips which are not double > insulated? > > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > > On Jul 22, 2016 12:20 AM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > >> Wrenches >> We have been replacing TL type inverters for years now, what we do is >> bring them up to current code or standards which ever is greater, permitted >> and all. DC wire must be correct or its replaced, not a problem there, now >> there is a neutral wire. As long as everything is compliant l dont know of >> an issue, what am l missing. >> Jerry >> >> On Jul 21, 2016 3:43 PM, "Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar" < >> Gary at syvsolar.com> wrote: >> >>> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters >>> when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to >>> replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could >>> be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation >>> purposes? Not clear on the concept. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Gary Gordon >>> >>> >>> >>> [image: cid:image001.jpg at 01D06621.23813A90] >>> >>> www.SYVSolar.com >>> >>> PO Box 688 >>> >>> Santa Ynez, CA 93460 >>> >>> 805 688-1213 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified Installer >>> >>> CA Licensed Solar Contractor >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 10:32:23 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:32:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh boy. Which BP models. I mean those things have had lots of trouble. jay peltz power > On Jul 22, 2016, at 8:23 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Glen, > > It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. > > August > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward. > It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. > I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, however. > From: Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar > Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. > > > Gary > > > Gary Gordon > > > www.SYVSolar.com > PO Box 688 > Santa Ynez, CA 93460 > 805 688-1213 > NABCEP Certified Installer > CA Licensed Solar Contractor > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jul 22 14:50:50 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:50:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> Message-ID: <8CE6FC16-377E-4456-90ED-BBC3D38DCA4C@millersolar.com> Gary: I want one of those DC/DC transformers. Where do you source those? William Miller > On Jul 21, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar wrote: > > We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. > > > Gary > > > Gary Gordon > > > www.SYVSolar.com > PO Box 688 > Santa Ynez, CA 93460 > 805 688-1213 > NABCEP Certified Installer > CA Licensed Solar Contractor > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jul 22 16:23:32 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 14:23:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <8CE6FC16-377E-4456-90ED-BBC3D38DCA4C@millersolar.com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <8CE6FC16-377E-4456-90ED-BBC3D38DCA4C@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <3BBF0A02-EAB9-4781-833F-E588E1E11C2F@starlightsolar.com> Be nice William ;-) Hi Gary, DC can not be transformed without converting it to AC first then back to DC again. Probably not feasible to do while tracking the MMP. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2016, at 12:50 PM, William Miller wrote: Gary: I want one of those DC/DC transformers. Where do you source those? William Miller On Jul 21, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar > wrote: > We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. > > > Gary > > > Gary Gordon > > > www.SYVSolar.com > PO Box 688 > Santa Ynez, CA 93460 > 805 688-1213 > NABCEP Certified Installer > CA Licensed Solar Contractor > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jul 22 18:09:24 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 16:09:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid in Blythe, AZ Message-ID: <2D083026-931E-47E3-A219-CF20C4FE2780@starlightsolar.com> Is anyone interested in building an off grid system in Blythe, CA? Contact me off the list larry at starlightsolar.com Thank you, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 19:05:10 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 13:05:10 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: BP modules had issues with jboxes on some modules, they were being replaced under conditions because they might catch the roof on fire if it was shake. Dont recall the model but fires were started in jbox from arcing. On Jul 22, 2016 7:40 AM, "jay" wrote: > Oh boy. > Which BP models. > I mean those things have had lots of trouble. > > jay > peltz power > > On Jul 22, 2016, at 8:23 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Glen, > > > It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL > inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP > modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim > situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy > is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the > modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. > > > August > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > > If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking > life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with > non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either > USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going > forward. > It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. > I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older > systems, however. > ------------------------------ > > *From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar > *Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 > *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters > when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to > replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could > be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation > purposes? Not clear on the concept. > > > > > Gary > > > > > Gary Gordon > > > > www.SYVSolar.com > PO Box 688 > Santa Ynez, CA 93460 > 805 688-1213 > NABCEP Certified Installer > CA Licensed Solar Contractor > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jul 22 21:25:16 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 21:25:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000401d1e481$1373df10$3a5b9d30$@burt@glbcc.com> August, I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 modules on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is a pattern, however no joy. Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything obvious. I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort, however I am approaching that point. It is a T&M job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an hour trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am stringing out the work. Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops! -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters Glen, It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward. It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, however. _____ From: Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. Gary Gary Gordon cid:image001.jpg at 01D06621.23813A90 www.SYVSolar.com PO Box 688 Santa Ynez, CA 93460 805 688-1213 NABCEP Certified Installer CA Licensed Solar Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 23:04:55 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:04:55 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <5792ca3d.064d620a.76aa8.5825SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> <5792ca3d.064d620a.76aa8.5825SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Question, is it the first test where it is checking for noise in the system or is it finding a fault once it is running. Does it have the latest software update, which code do you have test failure or arc failt detected, way different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If it is a test fail try to remove just the ground wire from the array, because its a metal roof its a big antenna and hears something that is to much for the test to deal with. If it fails due to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a connection. Jerry On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > August, > > > > I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 > modules on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB > 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is > a pattern, however no joy. > > Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything > obvious. > > I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort, > however I am approaching that point. > > It is a T&M job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an > hour trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am > stringing out the work. > > > > Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops! > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > > > Glen, > > > > It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL > inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP > modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim > situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy > is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the > modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > > > If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking > life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with > non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either > USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going > forward. > It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. > I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older > systems, however. > ------------------------------ > > *From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar > *Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 > *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters > when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to > replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could > be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation > purposes? Not clear on the concept. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > Gary Gordon > > > > [image: cid:image001.jpg at 01D06621.23813A90] > > www.SYVSolar.com > > PO Box 688 > > Santa Ynez, CA 93460 > > 805 688-1213 > > NABCEP Certified Installer > > CA Licensed Solar Contractor > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Sat Jul 23 15:19:11 2016 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 12:19:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypassing a broken PV module In-Reply-To: <20160722121248.2C8CD10297@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20160723121911.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.a83b6a9125.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Hi Jason, We just removed 2-3 shattered mods from the roof of the old KACO HQ because, in my opinion, the shattered glass poses a fire hazard by exposing normally protected electrical connections. The risk may be small but if there is any risk present what-so-ever, I want to mitigate that. I believe you made the right call by refusing to do the work as you may be liable in the (however unlikely) event of catastrophic failure at the mod in question. The array won't look so nice anymore if half of it is melted and charred. Play it safe. Get rid of it. Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bypassing a broken PV module From: "Glenn Burt" Date: 7/22/16 5:11 am To: "RE-wrenches" If it will be removed electrically from the system, perhaps you can come up with a way to apply a clear sealant coating across the face of the module to decrease further degradation by the elements. From: Jason Szumlanski Sent: ‎7/‎22/‎2016 7:26 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypassing a broken PV module I came across shattered glass on an Evergreen PV module while doing a new homeowner system evaluation. My inclination is to remove the panel and bypass it, which would still leave the array well within the operating parameters for the inverter. However, the owner wants to just leave the panel physically in the array because it actually looks better that way, which I agree it does. You can hardly tell it's broken from ground level. I explained that there is a risk of a ground fault if the module is left physically in the array, but the owner who is pretty astute, mentioned that the fault voltage if a ground fault were to occur from that module would only be at 22.5V potential (he didn't mention the actual voltage, but he did correctly state that the maximum fault would be limited to the single module, which in this case is 22.5V @ 12A). While it may trip an inverter, it would probably not pose a safety risk. While he may be technically right, for now I have reused to do the work, but I told him I would think about it. Anyone been through this scenario? ​Jason Szumlanski ​ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 16:14:02 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 16:14:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypassing a broken PV module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why don't you bypass it but leave it in place? On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I came across shattered glass on an Evergreen PV module while doing a new > homeowner system evaluation. My inclination is to remove the panel and > bypass it, which would still leave the array well within the operating > parameters for the inverter. However, the owner wants to just leave the > panel physically in the array because it actually looks better that way, > which I agree it does. You can hardly tell it's broken from ground level. > > I explained that there is a risk of a ground fault if the module is left > physically in the array, but the owner who is pretty astute, mentioned that > the fault voltage if a ground fault were to occur from that module would > only be at 22.5V potential (he didn't mention the actual voltage, but he > did correctly state that the maximum fault would be limited to the single > module, which in this case is 22.5V @ 12A). While it may trip an inverter, > it would probably not pose a safety risk. > > While he may be technically right, for now I have reused to do the work, > but I told him I would think about it. > > Anyone been through this scenario? > > ​Jason Szumlanski > ​ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Jul 23 21:35:09 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 21:35:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> <5792ca3d.064d620a.76aa8.5825SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000001d1e54b$9f659e80$de30db80$@burt@glbcc.com> Hi Jerry, It passes the initial power up tests fine, and fails at almost the same time of day when it faults with a 4301 Electric Arc Detected. Not usually the next day, often it will be fine for a week or so. According to the web box, the inverter has the latest available firmware. I am hoping it is a failure at a splice in a rooftop jbox (all are exposed on the ridge). I went there last week, but the customer office manager decided she wanted a written safety plan before she was comfortable letting me climb on the roof, so I am cogitating on that. Thanks for your thoughts. Glenn From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 11:05 PM To: RE-wrenches; glenn.burt at glbcc.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters Question, is it the first test where it is checking for noise in the system or is it finding a fault once it is running. Does it have the latest software update, which code do you have test failure or arc failt detected, way different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If it is a test fail try to remove just the ground wire from the array, because its a metal roof its a big antenna and hears something that is to much for the test to deal with. If it fails due to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a connection. Jerry On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" wrote: August, I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 modules on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is a pattern, however no joy. Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything obvious. I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort, however I am approaching that point. It is a T&M job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an hour trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am stringing out the work. Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops! -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters Glen, It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward. It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, however. _____ From: Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. Gary Gary Gordon www.SYVSolar.com PO Box 688 Santa Ynez, CA 93460 805 688-1213 NABCEP Certified Installer CA Licensed Solar Contractor _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From conradg at cape.com Sun Jul 24 09:03:01 2016 From: conradg at cape.com (Conrad Geyser) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 09:03:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Favorite BIPV? Message-ID: Hi all, Hoping that some of you may be interested in sharing your experiences with different building integrated PV systems. I have played around with various approaches over the years including some fairly experimental ones. *Not with customers! *Currently on my radar for off the shelf systems are Lumos(expensive) and Galaxy Roof systems(have yet to see in the field). Seems like we ought to have an affordable, ready to go BIPV market to turn to when the need arises, but seemingly not yet? best, Conrad Cotuit Solar On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 9:35 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Hi Jerry, > > > > It passes the initial power up tests fine, and fails at almost the same > time of day when it faults with a 4301 Electric Arc Detected. Not usually > the next day, often it will be fine for a week or so. > > According to the web box, the inverter has the latest available firmware. > > I am hoping it is a failure at a splice in a rooftop jbox (all are exposed > on the ridge). > > I went there last week, but the customer office manager decided she wanted > a written safety plan before she was comfortable letting me climb on the > roof, so I am cogitating on that. > > > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Glenn > > > > *From:* Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 11:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches; glenn.burt at glbcc.com > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > > > Question, is it the first test where it is checking for noise in the > system or is it finding a fault once it is running. Does it have the latest > software update, which code do you have test failure or arc failt detected, > way different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If it is a test fail try > to remove just the ground wire from the array, because its a metal roof its > a big antenna and hears something that is to much for the test to deal > with. If it fails due to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a > connection. > > Jerry > > > > On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > > August, > > > > I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 > modules on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB > 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is > a pattern, however no joy. > > Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything > obvious. > > I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort, > however I am approaching that point. > > It is a T&M job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an > hour trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am > stringing out the work. > > > > Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops! > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > > > Glen, > > > > It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL > inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP > modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim > situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy > is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the > modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > > > If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking > life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with > non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either > USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going > forward. > It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. > I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older > systems, however. > ------------------------------ > > *From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar > *Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 > *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters > when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to > replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could > be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation > purposes? Not clear on the concept. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > Gary Gordon > > > > > > www.SYVSolar.com > > PO Box 688 > > Santa Ynez, CA 93460 > > 805 688-1213 > > NABCEP Certified Installer > > CA Licensed Solar Contractor > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Jul 24 11:37:03 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 11:37:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <000001d1e54b$9f659e80$de30db80$@burt@glbcc.com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> <5792ca3d.064d620a.76aa8.5825SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000001d1e54b$9f659e80$de30db80$@burt@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <20160724153707.EC7868406F@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> It could easily be a nuisance trip rather than any problem. For sure, you want to check for possible problems. Big metal roofs are prone to nuisance tripping of the SMA AFCIs. I've been through this. At 09:35 PM 7/23/2016, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01D1E52A.1853FE80" >Content-Language: en-us > >Hi Jerry, > >It passes the initial power up tests fine, and >fails at almost the same time of day when it >faults with a 4301 Electric Arc Detected. Not >usually the next day, often it will be fine for a week or so. >According to the web box, the inverter has the latest available firmware. >I am hoping it is a failure at a splice in a >rooftop jbox (all are exposed on the ridge). >I went there last week, but the customer office >manager decided she wanted a written safety plan >before she was comfortable letting me climb on >the roof, so I am cogitating on that. > >Thanks for your thoughts. >Glenn > >From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] >Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 11:05 PM >To: RE-wrenches; glenn.burt at glbcc.com >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > > >Question, is it the first test where it is >checking for noise in the system or is it >finding a fault once it is running. Does it have >the latest software update, which code do you >have test failure or arc failt detected, way >different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If >it is a test fail try to remove just the ground >wire from the array, because its a metal roof >its a big antenna and hears something that is to >much for the test to deal with. If it fails due >to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a connection. > >Jerry > >On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" ><glenn.burt at glbcc.com> wrote: >August, > >I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI >faults with old SX 160 modules on a metal roof >and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a >SB 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping >input strings to see if there is a pattern, however no joy. >Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to >see if there is anything obvious. >I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality >without a serious effort, however I am approaching that point. >It is a T&M job for a system installed by others >back in 2004, about an hour trip 1 way and I am >afraid the customer will soon believe I am stringing out the work. > >Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops! > >-Glenn > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers >Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > >Glen, > >It’s interesting you mention that you’re >having AFCI issues with new TL inverters and old >modules. We are too. We have a particular system >with BP modules where we’re trying to figure >out if we have a warranty claim situation. >We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and >still the Sunny Boy is tripping with AFCI >errors. We think it is either corroded traces in >the modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. > >August > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt >Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters > >If you read some of the proposed changes for the >2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no >problem replacing isolated inverters with >non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed >wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to >be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward. >It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. >I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters >and AFCI issues on older systems, however. > >---------- >From: Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar >Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 >To: >re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters >We are all facing having to replace the old >transformer based inverters when they run out. >Really difficult to find replacements. Against >code to replace with transformer less ones. I >wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed >just ahead of the transformer less inverter for >isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. > > >Gary > > >Gary Gordon > > > www.SYVSolar.com > PO Box 688 > Santa Ynez, CA 93460 > 805 688-1213 > NABCEP Certified Installer > CA Licensed Solar Contractor > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 11:41:25 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 08:41:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <20160724153707.EC7868406F@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> <5792ca3d.064d620a.76aa8.5825SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <000001d1e54b$9f659e80$de30db80$@burt@glbcc.com> <20160724153707.EC7868406F@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I’m curious about it happening at the same time each day. I think that is a big clue. Could it be some other interference from some other electrical part? Motors etc? And what about if its heat related? IE the roof/modules heating up causing the issue? Curious. jay peltz power > On Jul 24, 2016, at 8:37 AM, Drake wrote: > > It could easily be a nuisance trip rather than any problem. For sure, you want to check for possible problems. Big metal roofs are prone to nuisance tripping of the SMA AFCIs. I've been through this. > > At 09:35 PM 7/23/2016, you wrote: >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01D1E52A.1853FE80" >> Content-Language: en-us >> >> Hi Jerry, >> >> It passes the initial power up tests fine, and fails at almost the same time of day when it faults with a 4301 Electric Arc Detected. Not usually the next day, often it will be fine for a week or so. >> According to the web box, the inverter has the latest available firmware. >> I am hoping it is a failure at a splice in a rooftop jbox (all are exposed on the ridge). >> I went there last week, but the customer office manager decided she wanted a written safety plan before she was comfortable letting me climb on the roof, so I am cogitating on that. >> >> Thanks for your thoughts. >> Glenn >> >> From: Jerry Shafer [ mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com ] >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 11:05 PM >> To: RE-wrenches; glenn.burt at glbcc.com >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters >> >> >> Question, is it the first test where it is checking for noise in the system or is it finding a fault once it is running. Does it have the latest software update, which code do you have test failure or arc failt detected, way different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If it is a test fail try to remove just the ground wire from the array, because its a metal roof its a big antenna and hears something that is to much for the test to deal with. If it fails due to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a connection. >> >> Jerry >> >> On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" > wrote: >> August, >> >> I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 modules on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is a pattern, however no joy. >> Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything obvious. >> I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort, however I am approaching that point. >> It is a T&M job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an hour trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am stringing out the work. >> >> Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops! >> >> -Glenn >> >> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of August Goers >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters >> >> Glen, >> >> It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. >> >> August >> >> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters >> >> If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward. >> It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. >> I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, however. >> From: Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar >> Sent: ‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters >> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. >> >> >> Gary >> >> >> Gary Gordon >> >> >> www.SYVSolar.com >> PO Box 688 >> Santa Ynez, CA 93460 >> 805 688-1213 >> NABCEP Certified Installer >> CA Licensed Solar Contractor >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 25 07:45:43 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 07:45:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypassing a broken PV module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's what the customer wanted, but even if I cut the leads short and terminated them, there would still be a risk of a ground fault to the module frame from water intrusion. In the end I was able to convince the customer to remove it. We moved a module from the end to the middle where this broken one was and cut off the excess rails. It looked just fine and they were happy. I don't think I was very clear in my original post. The owner wanted to leave it physically in place but bypass it electrically. On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > Why don't you bypass it but leave it in place? > > On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I came across shattered glass on an Evergreen PV module while doing a new >> homeowner system evaluation. My inclination is to remove the panel and >> bypass it, which would still leave the array well within the operating >> parameters for the inverter. However, the owner wants to just leave the >> panel physically in the array because it actually looks better that way, >> which I agree it does. You can hardly tell it's broken from ground level. >> >> I explained that there is a risk of a ground fault if the module is left >> physically in the array, but the owner who is pretty astute, mentioned that >> the fault voltage if a ground fault were to occur from that module would >> only be at 22.5V potential (he didn't mention the actual voltage, but he >> did correctly state that the maximum fault would be limited to the single >> module, which in this case is 22.5V @ 12A). While it may trip an inverter, >> it would probably not pose a safety risk. >> >> While he may be technically right, for now I have reused to do the work, >> but I told him I would think about it. >> >> Anyone been through this scenario? >> >> ​Jason Szumlanski >> ​ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Mon Jul 25 12:32:37 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 12:32:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria 3.8 Inverter Failures Message-ID: Wrenches, We have recently had a string of Solectria 3.8 failures. The commonality to the failures seems to be a failed internal relay on the top part of the inverter and we (and one customer) have witnessed brief arcing occur as the inverter attempts to start up. In every instance we have seen a tripped AC breaker. I had a positive conversation with Solectria about this problem and they tell me they have not seen this problem frequently and do not believe the error is systemic. That said, our failure rate is very high and our sample size is very small. I am curious if any folks installing Solectria 3.8s have seen this error or had a high failure rate as of late. Thanks, Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 12:58:34 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 12:58:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypassing a broken PV module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That wouldn't be a ground fault. On Jul 25, 2016 9:01 AM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > That's what the customer wanted, but even if I cut the leads short and > terminated them, there would still be a risk of a ground fault to the > module frame from water intrusion. In the end I was able to convince the > customer to remove it. We moved a module from the end to the middle where > this broken one was and cut off the excess rails. It looked just fine and > they were happy. > > I don't think I was very clear in my original post. The owner wanted to > leave it physically in place but bypass it electrically. > > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Chris Mason > wrote: > >> Why don't you bypass it but leave it in place? >> >> On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I came across shattered glass on an Evergreen PV module while doing a >>> new homeowner system evaluation. My inclination is to remove the panel and >>> bypass it, which would still leave the array well within the operating >>> parameters for the inverter. However, the owner wants to just leave the >>> panel physically in the array because it actually looks better that way, >>> which I agree it does. You can hardly tell it's broken from ground level. >>> >>> I explained that there is a risk of a ground fault if the module is left >>> physically in the array, but the owner who is pretty astute, mentioned that >>> the fault voltage if a ground fault were to occur from that module would >>> only be at 22.5V potential (he didn't mention the actual voltage, but he >>> did correctly state that the maximum fault would be limited to the single >>> module, which in this case is 22.5V @ 12A). While it may trip an inverter, >>> it would probably not pose a safety risk. >>> >>> While he may be technically right, for now I have reused to do the work, >>> but I told him I would think about it. >>> >>> Anyone been through this scenario? >>> >>> ​Jason Szumlanski >>> ​ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 17:33:11 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 14:33:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older XW with new XW accessories Message-ID: I've got a customer with an older pair of XW 4048 inverters and cc's. He would like to use the new web conext box, and probably the battery meter with them. Anybody know if this is possible? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Jul 25 20:28:50 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 19:28:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older XW with new XW accessories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D8A9548-C0EF-4967-9E3F-CC4FD2B16A14@mavericksolar.com> No issue I could see. I've done that exact same thing. Thank you, Maverick Sent from an iPhone. > On Jul 25, 2016, at 4:33 PM, Jay wrote: > > I've got a customer with an older pair of XW 4048 inverters and cc's. > > He would like to use the new web conext box, and probably the battery meter with them. > > Anybody know if this is possible? > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Jul 25 22:55:18 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 02:55:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older XW with new XW accessories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes works fine no problems. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: July-25-16 2:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older XW with new XW accessories I've got a customer with an older pair of XW 4048 inverters and cc's. He would like to use the new web conext box, and probably the battery meter with them. Anybody know if this is possible? Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Jul 25 23:48:08 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 03:48:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown equipment restart. BH, Combiner and battery disco. Message-ID: Could someone please explain the sequence of re setting a system with a Midnite Birdhouse, disconnecting combiner, and battery disconnect module. I mean, once the system is activated what is the correct sequence of re setting and turning the equipment back on, whether AC power to the birdhouse is lost or not..,.. Seems like the battery disconnect module is most finicky. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From august at luminalt.com Tue Jul 26 10:48:16 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 07:48:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The system we are dealing with has BP SX3 150S modules, made in India. I can’t figure out what year they were made, one serial number is 2011107 2008358. We have two new SMA 5000TL-US-22 inverters. The arc fault errors happen relatively quickly after startup – they run for about 5 to 10 minutes and then trip off. We’ve played around with the strings and isolated one that is particularly bad, but the others all cause arc faults too. This is the trouble with servicing old systems. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *jay *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 7:32 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters Oh boy. Which BP models. I mean those things have had lots of trouble. jay peltz power On Jul 22, 2016, at 8:23 AM, August Goers wrote: Glen, It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going forward. It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older systems, however. ------------------------------ *From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar *Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation purposes? Not clear on the concept. Gary Gary Gordon www.SYVSolar.com PO Box 688 Santa Ynez, CA 93460 805 688-1213 NABCEP Certified Installer CA Licensed Solar Contractor _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 26 12:07:38 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 12:07:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM Message-ID: It seems like most jurisdictions are now allowing a transition to Romex in a Soladeck box where the Romex enters the attic immediately and runs in protected space all the way back to a load-side interconnection or combiner panel. Two issues: - How are you bringing the Romex into the back of the Soladeck? Standard metallic strain relief or strain relief with rubber compression gasket or other means? - Assuming you can't use a Soladeck due to the roof type and are using a standard PVC roof junction box mounted to a rail with conduit to get into the attic, are you transitioning from Enphase cable to THWN-2 in the j-box, then installing a PVC or metallic pass-through box in the attic to transition to Romex? Even though it's a short distance from the j-box to the point where the conduit penetrates the roof plane, it's still a wet location so Romex isn't allowed. In fact, some jurisdictions are requiring this even for Soladeck boxes because they consider the Soladeck an enclosure in a wet location so the inside must also be considered a wet location, making the transition to Romex improper in their opinion. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jul 26 14:56:45 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:56:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e716248e5493b267bb3103e1eb2db9b@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jason, We’re in a territory where we can’t run Romex (NM) directly into Soladecks because of the wet location issue. I actually think inspectors are easing up on enforcing this particular code grey area, but nonetheless we haven’t run NM directly into Soladecks. I imagine that using a regular NM cable clamp connector would work. When we do run NM, we terminate it in indoors in a permanently accessible box typically located in the attic or on the ceiling or wall by the roof penetration location. Then, we run EMT through the roof and to our rooftop J-box. THWN-2 is run between these two boxes. Then, the microinverter (or ACPV) wire is spliced to the THWN-2 at the rooftop J-box. Yes, this means three wire types for each install! We’re using splice cap crimp connectors for all of our splices which we’re very happy with: http://www.idealindustries.ca/products/wire_termination/terminals_crimps/crimp_connector_splice_cap.php - ferrules are available for fine stranded conductors. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Tuesday, July 26, 2016 9:08 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM It seems like most jurisdictions are now allowing a transition to Romex in a Soladeck box where the Romex enters the attic immediately and runs in protected space all the way back to a load-side interconnection or combiner panel. Two issues: - How are you bringing the Romex into the back of the Soladeck? Standard metallic strain relief or strain relief with rubber compression gasket or other means? - Assuming you can't use a Soladeck due to the roof type and are using a standard PVC roof junction box mounted to a rail with conduit to get into the attic, are you transitioning from Enphase cable to THWN-2 in the j-box, then installing a PVC or metallic pass-through box in the attic to transition to Romex? Even though it's a short distance from the j-box to the point where the conduit penetrates the roof plane, it's still a wet location so Romex isn't allowed. In fact, some jurisdictions are requiring this even for Soladeck boxes because they consider the Soladeck an enclosure in a wet location so the inside must also be considered a wet location, making the transition to Romex improper in their opinion. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 26 15:46:25 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 15:46:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM In-Reply-To: <4e716248e5493b267bb3103e1eb2db9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4e716248e5493b267bb3103e1eb2db9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: August, That's exactly what we have been hit with before. I just got good news a few minutes ago that one major jurisdiction here made the exception to allow Romex into a Soladeck, and they will even consider Romex in a short piece of conduit to a roof mounted PVC box. In fact, the person I spoke to cited the outdoor electrical outlets as a prime example of where Romex is traditionally allowed into the back of a box in a wet location. Logic prevails! Jason On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 2:56 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason, > > > > We’re in a territory where we can’t run Romex (NM) directly into Soladecks > because of the wet location issue. I actually think inspectors are easing > up on enforcing this particular code grey area, but nonetheless we haven’t > run NM directly into Soladecks. I imagine that using a regular NM cable > clamp connector would work. > > > > When we do run NM, we terminate it in indoors in a permanently accessible > box typically located in the attic or on the ceiling or wall by the roof > penetration location. Then, we run EMT through the roof and to our rooftop > J-box. THWN-2 is run between these two boxes. Then, the microinverter (or > ACPV) wire is spliced to the THWN-2 at the rooftop J-box. Yes, this means > three wire types for each install! We’re using splice cap crimp connectors > for all of our splices which we’re very happy with: > http://www.idealindustries.ca/products/wire_termination/terminals_crimps/crimp_connector_splice_cap.php > - ferrules are available for fine stranded conductors. > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 26, 2016 9:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM > > > > It seems like most jurisdictions are now allowing a transition to Romex in > a Soladeck box where the Romex enters the attic immediately and runs in > protected space all the way back to a load-side interconnection or combiner > panel. Two issues: > > > > - How are you bringing the Romex into the back of the Soladeck? > Standard metallic strain relief or strain relief with rubber compression > gasket or other means? > - Assuming you can't use a Soladeck due to the roof type and are using > a standard PVC roof junction box mounted to a rail with conduit to get into > the attic, are you transitioning from Enphase cable to THWN-2 in the j-box, > then installing a PVC or metallic pass-through box in the attic to > transition to Romex? Even though it's a short distance from the j-box to > the point where the conduit penetrates the roof plane, it's still a wet > location so Romex isn't allowed. In fact, some jurisdictions are requiring > this even for Soladeck boxes because they consider the Soladeck an > enclosure in a wet location so the inside must also be considered a wet > location, making the transition to Romex improper in their opinion. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 26 17:11:35 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 16:11:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM In-Reply-To: References: <4e716248e5493b267bb3103e1eb2db9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <036201d1e782$4b9fe5b0$e2dfb110$@sbcglobal.net> Makes sense, Jason. We always use standard metal Romex clamps. It would be nice if SolaDeck made a box that actually is sized for a couple branches. Like working on an old Ford, with these you can crawl in under the hood. And I remain a little skeptical that the foam gasket actually seals the down hill side. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 2:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM August, That's exactly what we have been hit with before. I just got good news a few minutes ago that one major jurisdiction here made the exception to allow Romex into a Soladeck, and they will even consider Romex in a short piece of conduit to a roof mounted PVC box. In fact, the person I spoke to cited the outdoor electrical outlets as a prime example of where Romex is traditionally allowed into the back of a box in a wet location. Logic prevails! Jason On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 2:56 PM, August Goers wrote: Hi Jason, We’re in a territory where we can’t run Romex (NM) directly into Soladecks because of the wet location issue. I actually think inspectors are easing up on enforcing this particular code grey area, but nonetheless we haven’t run NM directly into Soladecks. I imagine that using a regular NM cable clamp connector would work. When we do run NM, we terminate it in indoors in a permanently accessible box typically located in the attic or on the ceiling or wall by the roof penetration location. Then, we run EMT through the roof and to our rooftop J-box. THWN-2 is run between these two boxes. Then, the microinverter (or ACPV) wire is spliced to the THWN-2 at the rooftop J-box. Yes, this means three wire types for each install! We’re using splice cap crimp connectors for all of our splices which we’re very happy with: http://www.idealindustries.ca/products/wire_termination/terminals_crimps/crimp_connector_splice_cap.php - ferrules are available for fine stranded conductors. August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 9:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM It seems like most jurisdictions are now allowing a transition to Romex in a Soladeck box where the Romex enters the attic immediately and runs in protected space all the way back to a load-side interconnection or combiner panel. Two issues: * How are you bringing the Romex into the back of the Soladeck? Standard metallic strain relief or strain relief with rubber compression gasket or other means? * Assuming you can't use a Soladeck due to the roof type and are using a standard PVC roof junction box mounted to a rail with conduit to get into the attic, are you transitioning from Enphase cable to THWN-2 in the j-box, then installing a PVC or metallic pass-through box in the attic to transition to Romex? Even though it's a short distance from the j-box to the point where the conduit penetrates the roof plane, it's still a wet location so Romex isn't allowed. In fact, some jurisdictions are requiring this even for Soladeck boxes because they consider the Soladeck an enclosure in a wet location so the inside must also be considered a wet location, making the transition to Romex improper in their opinion. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 26 19:38:26 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 19:38:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM In-Reply-To: <036201d1e782$4b9fe5b0$e2dfb110$@sbcglobal.net> References: <4e716248e5493b267bb3103e1eb2db9b@mail.gmail.com> <036201d1e782$4b9fe5b0$e2dfb110$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I installed a Soladeck on my own home early on to test it out, and I've been very happy. I actually have the 3-circuit Enphase combiner with AC circuit breakers. I have had a few nuisance trips, but that's more about the breaker than the enclosure I think. That was way back in the "early days" (haha) and I installed conduit all the way back to the AC disconnect. Romex is leaps and bounds easier, especially for new construction. On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 5:11 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > Makes sense, Jason. We always use standard metal Romex clamps. It would be > nice if SolaDeck made a box that actually is sized for a couple branches. > Like working on an old Ford, with these you can crawl in under the hood. > And I remain a little skeptical that the foam gasket actually seals the > down hill side. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 26, 2016 2:46 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM > > > > August, > > > > That's exactly what we have been hit with before. I just got good news a > few minutes ago that one major jurisdiction here made the exception to > allow Romex into a Soladeck, and they will even consider Romex in a short > piece of conduit to a roof mounted PVC box. In fact, the person I spoke to > cited the outdoor electrical outlets as a prime example of where Romex is > traditionally allowed into the back of a box in a wet location. > > > > Logic prevails! > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 2:56 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > > > We’re in a territory where we can’t run Romex (NM) directly into Soladecks > because of the wet location issue. I actually think inspectors are easing > up on enforcing this particular code grey area, but nonetheless we haven’t > run NM directly into Soladecks. I imagine that using a regular NM cable > clamp connector would work. > > > > When we do run NM, we terminate it in indoors in a permanently accessible > box typically located in the attic or on the ceiling or wall by the roof > penetration location. Then, we run EMT through the roof and to our rooftop > J-box. THWN-2 is run between these two boxes. Then, the microinverter (or > ACPV) wire is spliced to the THWN-2 at the rooftop J-box. Yes, this means > three wire types for each install! We’re using splice cap crimp connectors > for all of our splices which we’re very happy with: > http://www.idealindustries.ca/products/wire_termination/terminals_crimps/crimp_connector_splice_cap.php > - ferrules are available for fine stranded conductors. > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 26, 2016 9:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] New Construction Enphase Romex / NM > > > > It seems like most jurisdictions are now allowing a transition to Romex in > a Soladeck box where the Romex enters the attic immediately and runs in > protected space all the way back to a load-side interconnection or combiner > panel. Two issues: > > > > - How are you bringing the Romex into the back of the Soladeck? > Standard metallic strain relief or strain relief with rubber compression > gasket or other means? > - Assuming you can't use a Soladeck due to the roof type and are using > a standard PVC roof junction box mounted to a rail with conduit to get into > the attic, are you transitioning from Enphase cable to THWN-2 in the j-box, > then installing a PVC or metallic pass-through box in the attic to > transition to Romex? Even though it's a short distance from the j-box to > the point where the conduit penetrates the roof plane, it's still a wet > location so Romex isn't allowed. In fact, some jurisdictions are requiring > this even for Soladeck boxes because they consider the Soladeck an > enclosure in a wet location so the inside must also be considered a wet > location, making the transition to Romex improper in their opinion. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Jul 26 20:50:07 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 17:50:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown equipment restart. BH, Combiner and battery disco. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy, normally the way to reset the birdhouse RSS is to flip the PV combiner switch with the red handle on it, OFF and then back ON. Also... * **1-Make sure there is 120VAC to BirdHouse and it doesn=E2=80=99t say =E2= =80=9CBattery Low=E2=80=9D ** **2-Reset combiner (Birdhouse should say =E2=80=9CThe solar system has been= =20 turned on=E2=80=9D or something to that nature)** ** 3-Reset the breaker that was tripped by the BDM. What are you finding that is finicky about the Battery Disconnect Module=20 (MNBDM) ? The BDM is powered from the inverter side of the battery breaker, right=20 ? Otherwise it will keep trying to trip. Thanks, boB * On 7/25/2016 8:48 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Could someone please explain the sequence of re setting a system with a M= idnite Birdhouse, disconnecting combiner, and battery disconnect module. > I mean, once the system is activated what is the correct sequence of re s= etting and turning the equipment back on, whether AC power to the birdhouse= is lost or not..,.. > Seems like the battery disconnect module is most finicky. > =20 > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 10:49:27 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 07:49:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof attachment Message-ID: <3EFC759E-60DF-4275-B44F-DCC92B80556D@gmail.com> Hi all I'm looking for a roof attachment for the following Large base with sealant for plywood roof Many smaller screws vs single lag attachment Will be for roof with torch down material. And with center post attachment so I can mount unistrut to. I've seen some examples but now of course I can't seem to locate them. Thanks in advance Jay From august at luminalt.com Wed Jul 27 12:23:54 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 09:23:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof attachment In-Reply-To: <3EFC759E-60DF-4275-B44F-DCC92B80556D@gmail.com> References: <3EFC759E-60DF-4275-B44F-DCC92B80556D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here are a couple of products that come to mind: http://www.ecofastensolar.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=4&idcategory= 2#.V5jb0TsrJaQ http://www.anchorp.com/ (I believe IronRidge resells these as well) -August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 7:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof attachment Hi all I'm looking for a roof attachment for the following Large base with sealant for plywood roof Many smaller screws vs single lag attachment Will be for roof with torch down material. And with center post attachment so I can mount unistrut to. I've seen some examples but now of course I can't seem to locate them. Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 12:37:32 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 06:37:32 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof attachment In-Reply-To: <3EFC759E-60DF-4275-B44F-DCC92B80556D@gmail.com> References: <3EFC759E-60DF-4275-B44F-DCC92B80556D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lookat sunmodo, up to five screw holes Jerry On Jul 27, 2016 5:18 AM, "Jay" wrote: > Hi all > > I'm looking for a roof attachment for the following > > Large base with sealant for plywood roof > Many smaller screws vs single lag attachment > Will be for roof with torch down material. > And with center post attachment so I can mount unistrut to. > > I've seen some examples but now of course I can't seem to locate them. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Wed Jul 27 16:28:11 2016 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 13:28:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] S-5! mini vs 2 screw Message-ID: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Jul 27 18:09:51 2016 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 15:09:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wrench list host delays Message-ID: <65831.58097.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> If you have any questions or concerns, please contact me off list at my HP address, . Our email and listserver host has been having debilitating hardware problems on and off for a few days. They are working hard to fix things, I am told. I am not sure how this is affecting the list, as one of their problems has been precluding me from getting my List mail since I managed a download last night. But I suspect there have been delays on listserver outgoing emails. I've just changed my list address to one that is not part of our limping host, so I hope to be able to monitor the list more closely again. ------------------------ Michael Welch Sr. Editor Home Power magazine www.homepower.com From tump at swnl.net Thu Jul 28 09:01:22 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 09:01:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] S-5! mini vs 2 screw In-Reply-To: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <8CAFE41A-8DB2-4102-AED6-D61123341BA9@swnl.net> I would suggest the snap nrac standing seam clamp. Pulls a barrel EVENLY across the seam as opposed to the s5, 2 or 4 point set screw, no allen key from the side. The Snrac pull from the top, as they tighten the L foot. old part # standard 015-10105 wide base 015-10103 > On Jul 27, 2016, at 4:28 PM, bruce at willpowerelect.com wrote: > > Hello Wrenches! > We're designing a larger standing seam roof array. Other than the little bit of wobble from the single set screw on the mini, does anyone have a strong engineering opinion on the 2 screw vs single? We've always had good luck with the minis and the price is about 1/3 less. > > Thanks! > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > Willpower Electric, LLC > 4115 S Pacific Hwy > Medford, OR 97501 > > Phone: 541-535-3965 > Fax: 541-512-0061 > Email: bruce at willpowerelect.com > Web: Willpower Electric, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Jul 28 09:04:31 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 09:04:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof attachment In-Reply-To: <3EFC759E-60DF-4275-B44F-DCC92B80556D@gmail.com> References: <3EFC759E-60DF-4275-B44F-DCC92B80556D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ecofasten ECO-65 or ECO-44 would be good options. On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I'm looking for a roof attachment for the following > > Large base with sealant for plywood roof > Many smaller screws vs single lag attachment > Will be for roof with torch down material. > And with center post attachment so I can mount unistrut to. > > I've seen some examples but now of course I can't seem to locate them. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-309 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Jul 28 09:06:44 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 09:06:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] S-5! mini vs 2 screw In-Reply-To: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: The big problem I've had with the minis is when you attach them with rail and then walk on the rail it can pivot on the single set screw. Often you have to go back and straighten out the rails before mounting the modules. I'd assume the resistance to uplift would be less too but that may not be a problem. Thanks, Will On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 4:28 PM, wrote: > Hello Wrenches! > We're designing a larger standing seam roof array. Other than the little > bit of wobble from the single set screw on the mini, does anyone have a > strong engineering opinion on the 2 screw vs single? We've always had good > luck with the minis and the price is about 1/3 less. > > Thanks! > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > *Willpower Electric, LLC* > *4115 S Pacific Hwy* > *Medford, OR 97501* > > *Phone: *541-535-3965 > *Fax:* 541-512-0061 > *Email:* bruce at willpowerelect.com > *Web:* Willpower Electric, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-309 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jul 28 12:21:56 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 09:21:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid In-Reply-To: References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> Off-gridders, I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads (less than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical axis). Any personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic outback, Xantrex, trace, transformer type inverters? I'm hoping to be able to run it with a 1500-2000 watt Samlex. Clue me in please. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net From august at luminalt.com Thu Jul 28 12:34:42 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 09:34:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid In-Reply-To: <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill, I don't know about Samlex. We have a small offgrid system with an Outback GFX1424 1.4 kW inverter and FM80-150VDC charge controller. There were some issues early on with incompatible LED dimmer switches that apparently fried the Outback inverter board, so that was replaced under warranty. We’ve only had the system in for ~6 months so I can’t talk about long term reliability. [image: Luminalt offgrid (Small).JPG] Cheers, August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 9:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid Off-gridders, I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads (less than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical axis). Any personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic outback, Xantrex, trace, transformer type inverters? I'm hoping to be able to run it with a 1500-2000 watt Samlex. Clue me in please. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10752 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 12:48:39 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 06:48:39 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid In-Reply-To: <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> Message-ID: wrenches I have used samlex and have no issues from 300 watts to 1500 both 12 and 24 volts Jerry On Jul 28, 2016 6:20 AM, "frenergy" wrote: > Off-gridders, > > I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads > (less than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical > axis). Any personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic > outback, Xantrex, trace, transformer type inverters? I'm hoping to be able > to run it with a 1500-2000 watt Samlex. Clue me in please. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Jul 28 12:48:38 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 16:48:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid In-Reply-To: <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, The small Samlex inverters we find have very good power quality, but are lacking in surge capacity. We mainly use them on larger systems to isolate sensitive loads like home entertainment or computer networks. I'd be leery of this working well. For best service for your customer meter the washing machine through a cycle and then know for sure. A lot of them have fairly hefty spikes at certain times - ie when it starts the spin cycle and you have a whole load of soaked clothes being spun up. Also bear in mind washing machines can often trigger well pumps or effluent pumps concurrently adding to the load. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: July-28-16 9:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid Off-gridders, I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads (less than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical axis). Any personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic outback, Xantrex, trace, transformer type inverters? I'm hoping to be able to run it with a 1500-2000 watt Samlex. Clue me in please. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jul 28 12:55:05 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:55:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid In-Reply-To: <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, We have sold many hundreds of small inverters of various makes. Run from Samlex as a company. Most of their inverters have failed costing us $10’s of thousands. They will not take care of dealers. GoPower has a new high surge 1500 Watt inverter http://gpelectric.com/products/1500-watt-high-surge-pure-sine-wave-inverter that works wonders with all kinds of complex loads. Extremely low failures and their customer service is excellent. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 28, 2016, at 10:21 AM, frenergy wrote: Off-gridders, I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads (less than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical axis). Any personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic outback, Xantrex, trace, transformer type inverters? I'm hoping to be able to run it with a 1500-2000 watt Samlex. Clue me in please. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 11:01:44 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 08:01:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] S-5! mini vs 2 screw In-Reply-To: References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <4E6D7457-5D46-449C-A038-4B3840C457C2@gmail.com> There is also the Ace clamp. I haven’t used it or heard any reports about it. Looks better in many regards than the S-5. jay peltz power > On Jul 28, 2016, at 6:06 AM, Will White wrote: > > The big problem I've had with the minis is when you attach them with rail and then walk on the rail it can pivot on the single set screw. Often you have to go back and straighten out the rails before mounting the modules. I'd assume the resistance to uplift would be less too but that may not be a problem. > > Thanks, > Will > > > On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 4:28 PM, > wrote: > Hello Wrenches! > We're designing a larger standing seam roof array. Other than the little bit of wobble from the single set screw on the mini, does anyone have a strong engineering opinion on the 2 screw vs single? We've always had good luck with the minis and the price is about 1/3 less. > > Thanks! > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > Willpower Electric, LLC > 4115 S Pacific Hwy > Medford, OR 97501 > > Phone: 541-535-3965 > Fax: 541-512-0061 > Email: bruce at willpowerelect.com > Web: Willpower Electric, LLC <> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-309 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Jul 28 12:43:12 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 09:43:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof attachment In-Reply-To: References: <3EFC759E-60DF-4275-B44F-DCC92B80556D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c301d1e8ef$251cfea0$6f56fbe0$@solarwindworks.com> Check out the DPW Easy Power Post with 6 holes. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Will White Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 6:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roof attachment Ecofasten ECO-65 or ECO-44 would be good options. On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Jay wrote: Hi all I'm looking for a roof attachment for the following Large base with sealant for plywood roof Many smaller screws vs single lag attachment Will be for roof with torch down material. And with center post attachment so I can mount unistrut to. I've seen some examples but now of course I can't seem to locate them. Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-309 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 13:38:07 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:38:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] S-5! mini vs 2 screw In-Reply-To: <4E6D7457-5D46-449C-A038-4B3840C457C2@gmail.com> References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <4E6D7457-5D46-449C-A038-4B3840C457C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: We use the Ace 2 Clamps...We like them a lot.....mu h easier than the S5's....They are solid.....We have typically shied away from the S5 mini's because of their rock-able nature..... Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 8:01 AM, jay wrote: > There is also the Ace clamp. > > I haven’t used it or heard any reports about it. > Looks better in many regards than the S-5. > > jay > > peltz power > > On Jul 28, 2016, at 6:06 AM, Will White wrote: > > The big problem I've had with the minis is when you attach them with rail > and then walk on the rail it can pivot on the single set screw. Often you > have to go back and straighten out the rails before mounting the modules. > I'd assume the resistance to uplift would be less too but that may not be a > problem. > > Thanks, > Will > > > On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 4:28 PM, wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches! >> We're designing a larger standing seam roof array. Other than the little >> bit of wobble from the single set screw on the mini, does anyone have a >> strong engineering opinion on the 2 screw vs single? We've always had good >> luck with the minis and the price is about 1/3 less. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Bruce Fiero-RMI >> >> *Willpower Electric, LLC* >> *4115 S Pacific Hwy* >> *Medford, OR 97501* >> >> *Phone: *541-535-3965 >> *Fax:* 541-512-0061 >> *Email:* bruce at willpowerelect.com >> *Web:* Willpower Electric, LLC >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-309 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 13:44:17 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:44:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid In-Reply-To: References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> Message-ID: I like the magnum for small loads. It may be to big (1000W) for your needs though. I have a 300W samlex and a 1500W samlex for my training program and both seem to work well for small loads. We use the 300W for charging drill batteries while working on our habitat for humanity house each year and the 1500W is on a little cart we use when we go to high schools for recruitment. We use the later to run a tv and an X-box while at the highschool. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 28, 2016, at 11:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > We have sold many hundreds of small inverters of various makes. Run from Samlex as a company. Most of their inverters have failed costing us $10’s of thousands. They will not take care of dealers. > > GoPower has a new high surge 1500 Watt inverter http://gpelectric.com/products/1500-watt-high-surge-pure-sine-wave-inverter that works wonders with all kinds of complex loads. Extremely low failures and their customer service is excellent. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jul 28, 2016, at 10:21 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Off-gridders, > > I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads (less than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical axis). Any personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic outback, Xantrex, trace, transformer type inverters? I'm hoping to be able to run it with a 1500-2000 watt Samlex. Clue me in please. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 13:43:20 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:43:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid In-Reply-To: <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> Message-ID: Spend $600 and get a front loader. I just checked mine 150 watt max watt load .11 kWh VS 3000+ watt surge. I've seen old top loaders bury a old stout trace U2512. It will destroy the samlex Jay Peltz power. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 28, 2016, at 9:21 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Off-gridders, > > I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads (less than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical axis). Any personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic outback, Xantrex, trace, transformer type inverters? I'm hoping to be able to run it with a 1500-2000 watt Samlex. Clue me in please. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jul 28 14:56:02 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:56:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid In-Reply-To: References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> Message-ID: <7d368052-cc88-3363-3a6b-651078964fa8@sindelarsolar.com> Bill, I concur with Jay. Some of the older top loaders, especially Maytag, were known as problem loads in the early days. In the 80s Windy Dankoff developed a kit to run the controls off of mod-square inverter AC but adapt a DC motor to spin the agitator and tub. Inverters of that time couldn't handle the surge. I would not expect any high-frequency-switcher inverter like the Samlex to handle an older toploader. A better modern washer makes more sense than an oversized transformer-based inverter for that one load. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 7/28/2016 11:43 AM, Jay wrote: > Spend $600 and get a front loader. > I just checked mine > 150 watt max watt load > .11 kWh > > VS > > 3000+ watt surge. > I've seen old top loaders bury a old stout trace U2512. > It will destroy the samlex > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 28, 2016, at 9:21 AM, frenergy wrote: >> >> Off-gridders, >> >> I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads (less than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical axis). Any personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic outback, Xantrex, trace, transformer type inverters? I'm hoping to be able to run it with a 1500-2000 watt Samlex. Clue me in please. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jul 28 18:27:41 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 16:27:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Has anyone had Magnum Energy PT-100 controller failures Message-ID: <4C1EF4B9-DB97-4D6F-8C51-8DEB9F586DB6@starlightsolar.com> Hello Battery Wrenches, I have installed about 35 of the Magnum PT-100 charge controllers since November 2015. I have had about 10 fail, another one just today. The problem we have is the same every time: network communications fail which causes other problems until you remove the network cable from the controller. The controller functions fine otherwise. Some failed upon installation, some after a few weeks, others have lasted several months. Magnum has been making changes to the controller to try and fix it. Has anyone else had a PT-100 failure? Thank you, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jul 28 23:44:39 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 20:44:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters In-Reply-To: <000401d1e481$1373df10$3a5b9d30$@burt@glbcc.com> References: <027a01d1e3ba$6e9696c0$4bc3c440$@com> <20160722120903.DBFBC100ED@che.dreamhost.com> <37b04f23d3a217de4045e794dd30cadb@mail.gmail.com> <000401d1e481$1373df10$3a5b9d30$@burt@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <7f698012-7672-0282-046e-d1572a9fcabd@psln.com> Glenn, I don't know if this may help.... About 7 months ago I also replaced 2 SWR2500's with a SB5000TL. Sunwise PVs, system installed about 10 years ago. Just FYI I have had no issues with AFCI however, these are installed on a comp roof, DC behind the PVs is USE-2 to the adjacent combiner with THWN-2 from the combiner to the DC disco below the inverter. Is the AFCI either on or off? Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 7/22/2016 6:25 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > August, > > I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 > modules on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a > SB 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if > there is a pattern, however no joy. > > Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything > obvious. > > I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious > effort, however I am approaching that point. > > It is a T&M job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about > an hour trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am > stringing out the work. > > Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops! > > -Glenn > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 23:56:27 2016 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 17:56:27 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs Message-ID: Aloha Team Wrenches, How are we best protecting asphalt shingled roofs during the install? Does anybody use "yellow spaghetti mats" up on pitched roofs with any success? Mahalo in advance, *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Operations* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: yellow-spaghetti-large.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25083 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will at solarenergy.org Fri Jul 29 11:39:39 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 11:39:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've used those mats in the past and they work really well although if I remember correctly they get slippery when wet. This doesn't work on roofs but to protect customers floors I'm a big fan of using sections of carpet runners you can get from Home Depot. They're about 3' wide and have a rubber back. I get them cut in about 10' sections and lay them out to make a path from point A to point B. Customers really appreciate that. Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-309 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 11:56 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha Team Wrenches, > > How are we best protecting asphalt shingled roofs during the install? > > Does anybody use "yellow spaghetti mats" up on pitched roofs with any > success? > > Mahalo in advance, > > *James B. Rudolph* > *Haleakala Solar* > *Director of Operations* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-309 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 12:58:11 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 06:58:11 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches We have used carpet scraps, they stick well and cheap, we get them from a local installer Jerry On Jul 29, 2016 5:26 AM, "James Rudolph" wrote: > Aloha Team Wrenches, > > How are we best protecting asphalt shingled roofs during the install? > > Does anybody use "yellow spaghetti mats" up on pitched roofs with any > success? > > Mahalo in advance, > > *James B. Rudolph* > *Haleakala Solar* > *Director of Operations* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 13:34:54 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 11:34:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper 100 parts? Message-ID: Wrenches; I was contacted by an individual in remote Alaska who is heavily invested in Whisper 100s (the best turbine SWWP ever made IMHO and his). He is looking for spare parts, and even entire boneyard turbines. Specific needs right now, a Whisper 100 powerhead. He was dealing with a company in Colorado for a while, but they severed all ties with India recently. Please contact me off-list if you know of a secret stash of Whisper 100 parts. I have a client here in CO that will probably need some refurb parts soon. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jul 29 14:19:21 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 11:19:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76c9a90cd04dd20516dc6d4ac4193bfb@mail.gmail.com> Hi James, Great topic! Minimizing roof wear and tear during installation is a big deal. We have Yellow Spaghetti mat ( http://www.bestmaterials.com/PDF_Files/yellow-spaghetti-datasheet.pdf) and carpet scraps. Each has pros and cons. Spaghetti mat is durable and we use it over and over. It does get slippery when wet and doesn’t have good enough grip over ~ 26-30 degree pitched roofs. Carpet actually performs better when wet but it gets heavy and messy. We can also use carpet on steeper roofs where we actually tie it off to our anchors by making a hole in the top of the carpet piece and tying a rope to it. It takes a lot of perseverance to get crews to consistently protect the roof to the level that is required to minimize damage. It has to be part of every installation plan just like fall protection. On hot days we try to get on the roof as early as possible and off the roof by the time the roof gets warm and soft. One of my colleagues mentioned that they would spray a roof down with a garden hose to cool it off on hot days, I haven’t personally tried that. August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer *Sent:* Friday, July 29, 2016 9:58 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs Wrenches We have used carpet scraps, they stick well and cheap, we get them from a local installer Jerry On Jul 29, 2016 5:26 AM, "James Rudolph" wrote: Aloha Team Wrenches, How are we best protecting asphalt shingled roofs during the install? Does anybody use "yellow spaghetti mats" up on pitched roofs with any success? Mahalo in advance, *J**ames B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Operations* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jul 29 15:54:12 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 13:54:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper 100 parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19D3B922-A149-4555-9402-FA11F6A698E3@starlightsolar.com> Have you been here: http://www.luminousrenewable.com/whisper100.php Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:34 AM, Dan Fink wrote: Wrenches; I was contacted by an individual in remote Alaska who is heavily invested in Whisper 100s (the best turbine SWWP ever made IMHO and his). He is looking for spare parts, and even entire boneyard turbines. Specific needs right now, a Whisper 100 powerhead. He was dealing with a company in Colorado for a while, but they severed all ties with India recently. Please contact me off-list if you know of a secret stash of Whisper 100 parts. I have a client here in CO that will probably need some refurb parts soon. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jul 29 16:23:47 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 16:23:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper 100 parts? In-Reply-To: <19D3B922-A149-4555-9402-FA11F6A698E3@starlightsolar.com> References: <19D3B922-A149-4555-9402-FA11F6A698E3@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: FYI Luminous has sold to another India firm call Wish. wishenergy.com Be fore warned communications is tough. Best of luck. Christopher Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Have you been here: http://www.luminousrenewable.com/whisper100.php > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:34 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Wrenches; > > I was contacted by an individual in remote Alaska who is heavily invested > in Whisper 100s (the best turbine SWWP ever made IMHO and his). He is > looking for spare parts, and even entire boneyard turbines. Specific needs > right now, a Whisper 100 powerhead. > > He was dealing with a company in Colorado for a while, but they severed > all ties with India recently. > > Please contact me off-list if you know of a secret stash of Whisper 100 > parts. I have a client here in CO that will probably need some refurb parts > soon. > > Best regards; > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Jul 29 16:37:01 2016 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 16:37:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper 100 parts? In-Reply-To: <19D3B922-A149-4555-9402-FA11F6A698E3@starlightsolar.com> References: <19D3B922-A149-4555-9402-FA11F6A698E3@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <0761ea02-1796-9881-cc1c-342e60dce503@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 17:58:32 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 15:58:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper 100 parts? In-Reply-To: <19D3B922-A149-4555-9402-FA11F6A698E3@starlightsolar.com> References: <19D3B922-A149-4555-9402-FA11F6A698E3@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: The client was getting parts from Luminous through a distributor in Colorado, who cut all ties with India due to numerous issues. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Have you been here: http://www.luminousrenewable.com/whisper100.php > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:34 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Wrenches; > > I was contacted by an individual in remote Alaska who is heavily invested > in Whisper 100s (the best turbine SWWP ever made IMHO and his). He is > looking for spare parts, and even entire boneyard turbines. Specific needs > right now, a Whisper 100 powerhead. > > He was dealing with a company in Colorado for a while, but they severed > all ties with India recently. > > Please contact me off-list if you know of a secret stash of Whisper 100 > parts. I have a client here in CO that will probably need some refurb parts > soon. > > Best regards; > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Jul 29 18:12:12 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 15:12:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs In-Reply-To: <76c9a90cd04dd20516dc6d4ac4193bfb@mail.gmail.com> References: <76c9a90cd04dd20516dc6d4ac4193bfb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015801d1e9e6$44ff0a90$cefd1fb0$@solarwindworks.com> The hose is our best friend, next are foam pads like a twin mattress size, these grip well. We’ve used cardboard over the ridge to protect it from ropes if our lifelines go over it. On the steeper pitches we use walk boards made from ripping 5/8” or ¾” plywood into 12” x 8’ strips and nailing/screwing a 2x6 or 2x10 to one edge, depending on the pitch. Then we drill (3) 1” holes to run webbing through and tie them off to our standoffs. These work well, we’ve also laid 2x4’s above the lower row of standoffs allowing us to walk on them. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 11:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs Hi James, Great topic! Minimizing roof wear and tear during installation is a big deal. We have Yellow Spaghetti mat (http://www.bestmaterials.com/PDF_Files/yellow-spaghetti-datasheet.pdf) and carpet scraps. Each has pros and cons. Spaghetti mat is durable and we use it over and over. It does get slippery when wet and doesn’t have good enough grip over ~ 26-30 degree pitched roofs. Carpet actually performs better when wet but it gets heavy and messy. We can also use carpet on steeper roofs where we actually tie it off to our anchors by making a hole in the top of the carpet piece and tying a rope to it. It takes a lot of perseverance to get crews to consistently protect the roof to the level that is required to minimize damage. It has to be part of every installation plan just like fall protection. On hot days we try to get on the roof as early as possible and off the roof by the time the roof gets warm and soft. One of my colleagues mentioned that they would spray a roof down with a garden hose to cool it off on hot days, I haven’t personally tried that. August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 9:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs Wrenches We have used carpet scraps, they stick well and cheap, we get them from a local installer Jerry On Jul 29, 2016 5:26 AM, "James Rudolph" wrote: Aloha Team Wrenches, How are we best protecting asphalt shingled roofs during the install? Does anybody use "yellow spaghetti mats" up on pitched roofs with any success? Mahalo in advance, James B. Rudolph Haleakala Solar Director of Operations NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Jul 29 18:47:07 2016 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:47:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper 100 parts? In-Reply-To: References: <19D3B922-A149-4555-9402-FA11F6A698E3@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <54f57aaf-4e8f-6327-5fc0-c63b9fd727b7@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 19:13:38 2016 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 23:13:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs In-Reply-To: <015801d1e9e6$44ff0a90$cefd1fb0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <76c9a90cd04dd20516dc6d4ac4193bfb@mail.gmail.com> <015801d1e9e6$44ff0a90$cefd1fb0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <72098331.8348251.1469834018836.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> What kind of hose set up do you use?  We do too, during the hot months, but now you have me thinking about a rooftop drip irrigation system!   Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Friday, July 29, 2016 3:44 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: #yiv8467896981 #yiv8467896981 -- _filtered #yiv8467896981 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8467896981 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8467896981 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv8467896981 #yiv8467896981 p.yiv8467896981MsoNormal, #yiv8467896981 li.yiv8467896981MsoNormal, #yiv8467896981 div.yiv8467896981MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8467896981 a:link, #yiv8467896981 span.yiv8467896981MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8467896981 a:visited, #yiv8467896981 span.yiv8467896981MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8467896981 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8467896981 p.yiv8467896981MsoAcetate, #yiv8467896981 li.yiv8467896981MsoAcetate, #yiv8467896981 div.yiv8467896981MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv8467896981 span.yiv8467896981EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8467896981 span.yiv8467896981EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8467896981 span.yiv8467896981BalloonTextChar {}#yiv8467896981 .yiv8467896981MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8467896981 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv8467896981 div.yiv8467896981WordSection1 {}#yiv8467896981 The hose is our best friend, next are foam pads like a twin mattress size, these grip well. We’ve used cardboard over the ridge to protect it from ropes if our lifelines go over it. On the steeper pitches we use walk boards made from ripping 5/8” or ¾” plywood into 12” x 8’ strips and nailing/screwing a 2x6 or 2x10 to one edge, depending on the pitch. Then we drill (3) 1” holes to run webbing through and tie them off to our standoffs. These work well, we’ve also laid 2x4’s above the lower row of standoffs allowing us to walk on them.  Chris WorcesterSolar Wind WorksNABCEP Certified PV InstallerOffice 530-582-4503Cell 530-448-9692Fax 530-582-4603www.solarwindworks.comchris at solarwindworks.com  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 11:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs  Hi James, Great topic! Minimizing roof wear and tear during installation is a big deal. We have Yellow Spaghetti mat (http://www.bestmaterials.com/PDF_Files/yellow-spaghetti-datasheet.pdf) and carpet scraps. Each has pros and cons. Spaghetti mat is durable and we use it over and over. It does get slippery when wet and doesn’t have good enough grip over ~ 26-30 degree pitched roofs. Carpet actually performs better when wet but it gets heavy and messy. We can also use carpet on steeper roofs where we actually tie it off to our anchors by making a hole in the top of the carpet piece and tying a rope to it.  It takes a lot of perseverance to get crews to consistently protect the roof to the level that is required to minimize damage. It has to be part of every installation plan just like fall protection. On hot days we try to get on the roof as early as possible and off the roof by the time the roof gets warm and soft. One of my colleagues mentioned that they would spray a roof down with a garden hose to cool it off on hot days, I  haven’t personally tried that. AugustLuminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 9:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs Wrenches We have used carpet scraps, they stick well and cheap, we get them from a local installer Jerry On Jul 29, 2016 5:26 AM, "James Rudolph" wrote:Aloha Team Wrenches, How are we best protecting asphalt shingled roofs during the install? Does anybody use "yellow spaghetti mats" up on pitched roofs with any success? Mahalo in advance, James B. RudolphHaleakala Solar Director of OperationsNABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Sat Jul 30 00:34:20 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 21:34:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs In-Reply-To: <72098331.8348251.1469834018836.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <76c9a90cd04dd20516dc6d4ac4193bfb@mail.gmail.com> <015801d1e9e6$44ff0a90$cefd1fb0$@solarwindworks.com> <72098331.8348251.1469834018836.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01ca01d1ea1b$a73e0050$f5ba00f0$@solarwindworks.com> We get enough garden hose up to the roof to be able to spray down our work area quickly, about every 15 minutes during the heat waves. It can almost be a full time job for one person. I hadn’t thought about a mister/drip system….hmmm… Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 4:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs What kind of hose set up do you use? We do too, during the hot months, but now you have me thinking about a rooftop drip irrigation system! Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Friday, July 29, 2016 3:44 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: The hose is our best friend, next are foam pads like a twin mattress size, these grip well. We’ve used cardboard over the ridge to protect it from ropes if our lifelines go over it. On the steeper pitches we use walk boards made from ripping 5/8” or ¾” plywood into 12” x 8’ strips and nailing/screwing a 2x6 or 2x10 to one edge, depending on the pitch. Then we drill (3) 1” holes to run webbing through and tie them off to our standoffs. These work well, we’ve also laid 2x4’s above the lower row of standoffs allowing us to walk on them. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 11:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs Hi James, Great topic! Minimizing roof wear and tear during installation is a big deal. We have Yellow Spaghetti mat (http://www.bestmaterials.com/PDF_Files/yellow-spaghetti-datasheet.pdf) and carpet scraps. Each has pros and cons. Spaghetti mat is durable and we use it over and over. It does get slippery when wet and doesn’t have good enough grip over ~ 26-30 degree pitched roofs. Carpet actually performs better when wet but it gets heavy and messy. We can also use carpet on steeper roofs where we actually tie it off to our anchors by making a hole in the top of the carpet piece and tying a rope to it. It takes a lot of perseverance to get crews to consistently protect the roof to the level that is required to minimize damage. It has to be part of every installation plan just like fall protection. On hot days we try to get on the roof as early as possible and off the roof by the time the roof gets warm and soft. One of my colleagues mentioned that they would spray a roof down with a garden hose to cool it off on hot days, I haven’t personally tried that. August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 9:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs Wrenches We have used carpet scraps, they stick well and cheap, we get them from a local installer Jerry On Jul 29, 2016 5:26 AM, "James Rudolph" wrote: Aloha Team Wrenches, How are we best protecting asphalt shingled roofs during the install? Does anybody use "yellow spaghetti mats" up on pitched roofs with any success? Mahalo in advance, James B. Rudolph Haleakala Solar Director of Operations NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 07:46:08 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 07:46:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs In-Reply-To: <01ca01d1ea1b$a73e0050$f5ba00f0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <76c9a90cd04dd20516dc6d4ac4193bfb@mail.gmail.com> <015801d1e9e6$44ff0a90$cefd1fb0$@solarwindworks.com> <72098331.8348251.1469834018836.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d1ea1b$a73e0050$f5ba00f0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Our crew wear CougarPaws boots when working on asphalt shingles. Very gentle on the roof and added traction is a great safety improvement on steeper pitches. They seem to run 1/2 to 1 size larger than the normal boot for most of the crew. https://www.cougarpaws.com Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer On Jul 30, 2016 3:04 AM, "Chris Worcester" wrote: > We get enough garden hose up to the roof to be able to spray down our work > area quickly, about every 15 minutes during the heat waves. It can almost > be a full time job for one person. I hadn’t thought about a mister/drip > system….hmmm… > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Solar Energy Solutions > *Sent:* Friday, July 29, 2016 4:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs > > > > What kind of hose set up do you use? We do too, during the hot months, > but now you have me thinking about a rooftop drip irrigation system! > > > > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > > *President* > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* > > > *Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighborsmove towards an > environmentally sustainable future.* > > > *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > > > On Friday, July 29, 2016 3:44 PM, Chris Worcester < > chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote: > > > > The hose is our best friend, next are foam pads like a twin mattress size, > these grip well. We’ve used cardboard over the ridge to protect it from > ropes if our lifelines go over it. On the steeper pitches we use walk > boards made from ripping 5/8” or ¾” plywood into 12” x 8’ strips and > nailing/screwing a 2x6 or 2x10 to one edge, depending on the pitch. Then we > drill (3) 1” holes to run webbing through and tie them off to our > standoffs. These work well, we’ve also laid 2x4’s above the lower row of > standoffs allowing us to walk on them. > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Friday, July 29, 2016 11:19 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs > > > > Hi James, > > > > Great topic! Minimizing roof wear and tear during installation is a big > deal. We have Yellow Spaghetti mat ( > http://www.bestmaterials.com/PDF_Files/yellow-spaghetti-datasheet.pdf) > and carpet scraps. Each has pros and cons. Spaghetti mat is durable and we > use it over and over. It does get slippery when wet and doesn’t have good > enough grip over ~ 26-30 degree pitched roofs. Carpet actually performs > better when wet but it gets heavy and messy. We can also use carpet on > steeper roofs where we actually tie it off to our anchors by making a hole > in the top of the carpet piece and tying a rope to it. > > > > It takes a lot of perseverance to get crews to consistently protect the > roof to the level that is required to minimize damage. It has to be part of > every installation plan just like fall protection. > > > > On hot days we try to get on the roof as early as possible and off the > roof by the time the roof gets warm and soft. One of my colleagues > mentioned that they would spray a roof down with a garden hose to cool it > off on hot days, I haven’t personally tried that. > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Friday, July 29, 2016 9:58 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting Asphalt Shingled Roofs > > > > Wrenches > We have used carpet scraps, they stick well and cheap, we get them from a > local installer > Jerry > > > > On Jul 29, 2016 5:26 AM, "James Rudolph" wrote: > > Aloha Team Wrenches, > > > > How are we best protecting asphalt shingled roofs during the install? > > > > Does anybody use "yellow spaghetti mats" up on pitched roofs with any > success? > > > > Mahalo in advance, > > > *James B. Rudolph* > > *Haleakala Solar* > > *Director of Operations* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Jul 30 10:34:30 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 08:34:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Has anyone had Magnum Energy PT-100 controller failures In-Reply-To: <4C1EF4B9-DB97-4D6F-8C51-8DEB9F586DB6@starlightsolar.com> References: <4C1EF4B9-DB97-4D6F-8C51-8DEB9F586DB6@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Perhaps I should rephrase my question: Has anyone else been selling the PT-100? If so, how many? Any failures? Early on a tech told me that I’m the only one experiencing the failures. Larry On Jul 28, 2016, at 4:27 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hello Battery Wrenches, I have installed about 35 of the Magnum PT-100 charge controllers since November 2015. I have had about 10 fail, another one just today. The problem we have is the same every time: network communications fail which causes other problems until you remove the network cable from the controller. The controller functions fine otherwise. Some failed upon installation, some after a few weeks, others have lasted several months. Magnum has been making changes to the controller to try and fix it. Has anyone else had a PT-100 failure? Thank you, Larry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 11:35:50 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 08:35:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Has anyone had Magnum Energy PT-100 controller failures In-Reply-To: References: <4C1EF4B9-DB97-4D6F-8C51-8DEB9F586DB6@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <4B53D7B8-56C7-4554-8540-8DE24492332A@gmail.com> I’ve got eight in service. One had the same network issue, right out of the box. Removed and reinserted the network cable to remedy. Michael > On Jul 30, 2016, at 7:34 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Perhaps I should rephrase my question: Has anyone else been selling the PT-100? If so, how many? Any failures? > Early on a tech told me that I’m the only one experiencing the failures. > > Larry > > > On Jul 28, 2016, at 4:27 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: > > Hello Battery Wrenches, > > I have installed about 35 of the Magnum PT-100 charge controllers since November 2015. I have had about 10 fail, another one just today. The problem we have is the same every time: network communications fail which causes other problems until you remove the network cable from the controller. The controller functions fine otherwise. > > Some failed upon installation, some after a few weeks, others have lasted several months. Magnum has been making changes to the controller to try and fix it. Has anyone else had a PT-100 failure? > > Thank you, > > Larry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 16:30:37 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 14:30:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] vfx 3524 Message-ID: Hello wrenches, Does anyone know of a distributor that has an Outback VFX 3524 available? Or that you'd like to sell (please contact me off-list). Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From conradg at cape.com Mon Aug 1 17:00:00 2016 From: conradg at cape.com (Conrad Geyser) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 17:00:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Favorite BIPV? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, Hoping that some of you may be interested in sharing your experiences with different building integrated PV systems. I have played around with various approaches over the years including some fairly experimental ones. *Not with customers! *Currently on my radar for off the shelf systems are Lumos(expensive) and Galaxy Roof systems(have yet to see in the field). Seems like we ought to have an affordable, ready to go BIPV market to turn to when the need arises, but seemingly not yet? best, Conrad Cotuit Solar Conrad Geyser, Principal Cotuit Solar LLC 508-428-8442 On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Conrad Geyser wrote: > Hi all, > > Hoping that some of you may be interested in sharing your experiences with > different building integrated PV systems. > > I have played around with various approaches over the years including some > fairly experimental ones. *Not with customers! *Currently on my radar > for off the shelf systems are Lumos(expensive) and Galaxy Roof systems(have > yet to see in the field). > > Seems like we ought to have an affordable, ready to go BIPV market to turn > to when the need arises, but seemingly not yet? > > best, > > Conrad > Cotuit Solar > > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 9:35 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >> Hi Jerry, >> >> >> >> It passes the initial power up tests fine, and fails at almost the same >> time of day when it faults with a 4301 Electric Arc Detected. Not usually >> the next day, often it will be fine for a week or so. >> >> According to the web box, the inverter has the latest available firmware. >> >> I am hoping it is a failure at a splice in a rooftop jbox (all are >> exposed on the ridge). >> >> I went there last week, but the customer office manager decided she >> wanted a written safety plan before she was comfortable letting me climb on >> the roof, so I am cogitating on that. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your thoughts. >> >> Glenn >> >> >> >> *From:* Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 11:05 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches; glenn.burt at glbcc.com >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters >> >> >> >> Question, is it the first test where it is checking for noise in the >> system or is it finding a fault once it is running. Does it have the latest >> software update, which code do you have test failure or arc failt detected, >> way different trouble shooting tracks yo follow. If it is a test fail try >> to remove just the ground wire from the array, because its a metal roof its >> a big antenna and hears something that is to much for the test to deal >> with. If it fails due to an arc then there is most likely an arc at a >> connection. >> >> Jerry >> >> >> >> On Jul 22, 2016 3:37 PM, "Glenn Burt" wrote: >> >> August, >> >> >> >> I am currently chasing down unexplained AFCI faults with old SX 160 >> modules on a metal roof and having replaced two SMA SWR-2500U’s with a SB >> 5000TL-US-22. So far I have been swapping input strings to see if there is >> a pattern, however no joy. >> >> Next visit is up on the roof (steep pitch) to see if there is anything >> obvious. >> >> I hate to simply disable the AFCI functionality without a serious effort, >> however I am approaching that point. >> >> It is a T&M job for a system installed by others back in 2004, about an >> hour trip 1 way and I am afraid the customer will soon believe I am >> stringing out the work. >> >> >> >> Looking forward to hearing more of your experience as it develops! >> >> >> >> -Glenn >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *August Goers >> *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 10:23 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters >> >> >> >> Glen, >> >> >> >> It’s interesting you mention that you’re having AFCI issues with new TL >> inverters and old modules. We are too. We have a particular system with BP >> modules where we’re trying to figure out if we have a warranty claim >> situation. We’ve cleaned up all the DC-side wiring and still the Sunny Boy >> is tripping with AFCI errors. We think it is either corroded traces in the >> modules or perhaps bypass diode issues in the module j-boxes. More to come. >> >> >> >> August >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt >> *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 5:08 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters >> >> >> >> If you read some of the proposed changes for the 2017 NEC, it is looking >> life there will be no problem replacing isolated inverters with >> non-isolated versions. In fact the proposed wording seems to allow either >> USE, or PV wire to be used with non-isolated inverters explicitly going >> forward. >> It made me feel better about doing recent replacements. >> I'm having more trouble with the TL inverters and AFCI issues on older >> systems, however. >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From: *Gary at Santa Ynez Valley Solar >> *Sent: *‎7/‎21/‎2016 21:43 >> *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Replacing grounded inverters >> >> We are all facing having to replace the old transformer based inverters >> when they run out. Really difficult to find replacements. Against code to >> replace with transformer less ones. I wonder if a DC/DC transformer could >> be installed just ahead of the transformer less inverter for isolation >> purposes? Not clear on the concept. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary Gordon >> >> >> >> >> >> www.SYVSolar.com >> >> PO Box 688 >> >> Santa Ynez, CA 93460 >> >> 805 688-1213 >> >> NABCEP Certified Installer >> >> CA Licensed Solar Contractor >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Aug 1 20:23:10 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 00:23:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydrometer tube lost in a battery cell.. Message-ID: Wrenches, I will contact Surrette if necessary, but I have a client that lost his hydrometer tube in one of the cells of a 4 V battery, if I recall. industrial, dual container. Is there any risk of damage? Should the tube be removed, if possible? Plastic/ Rubber tube of course. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From steve at surrette.com Mon Aug 1 20:50:23 2016 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 17:50:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydrometer tube lost in a battery cell.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jeremy, A plastic/rubber tube won't be an issue... Best thing to do is get them a refractometer that way the only thing you're putting into the battery is a pipette to remove just a drop or two of electrolyte... The Extech RF40 or RF41 are available on amazon and are generally priced well. On Aug 1, 2016 5:23 PM, "Jeremy Rodriguez" wrote: > Wrenches, > I will contact Surrette if necessary, but I have a client that lost his > hydrometer tube in one of the cells of a 4 V battery, if I recall. > industrial, dual container. > Is there any risk of damage? Should the tube be removed, if possible? > Plastic/ Rubber tube of course. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Aug 1 23:04:36 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:04:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] CA wrenches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: California Wrenches, One of my utilities which is still offering rebates for grid tie went to the Go Solar California website to see that the newest SMA TL inverters (5.0 and 6.0) are on the "approved" list which of course it is. However, in the "Approved built-in meter" column shows a "NO" for it. My utility wants me to add an additional, separate meter to show KWhr power production. I've talked with SMA about this and the onboard monitor gives KWhrs and they've showed me their docs for it, but my utility is still using the fact that the Go Solar site says no. How have others dealt with this or is it just my utility that's made an issue of this? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net From pshortell6 at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 08:03:33 2016 From: pshortell6 at gmail.com (Patrick Shortell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 08:03:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sharp Triangles Message-ID: Good Morning Wrenches, I know im reaching here but if anyone knows where I can find some Sharp triangles, Please contact me off list. Thanks Pat -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Tue Aug 2 11:13:17 2016 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 08:13:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydrometer tube lost in a battery cell.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46870240-382B-4080-9396-BFF78651408F@pacific.net> On Aug 1, 2016, at 5:50 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: > Hey Jeremy, > > A plastic/rubber tube won't be an issue... > > Best thing to do is get them a refractometer that way the only thing you're putting into the battery is a pipette to remove just a drop or two of electrolyte... > > The Extech RF40 or RF41 are available on amazon and are generally priced well. > Howdy Except that pipette is much too short for series 5000 Surrettes. I've dropped it into a cell before with successful retrieval. A tube extension, with snug fit to hydrometer tube works as well and facilitates a quicker process of cell to cell charge status check in my opinion. I do break out the refractometer at times but it takes lot of moves with acid rag or tissue wipe down process in my opinion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 2 11:41:35 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 08:41:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydrometer tube lost in a battery cell.. In-Reply-To: <46870240-382B-4080-9396-BFF78651408F@pacific.net> References: <46870240-382B-4080-9396-BFF78651408F@pacific.net> Message-ID: <3160505ef88a9452d3d87d1afe427375@mail.gmail.com> Wally: Nice to see your name. I would add this: I hate to have acid too close to my eyes. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Wallace Stahle *Sent:* Tuesday, August 02, 2016 8:13 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Hydrometer tube lost in a battery cell.. On Aug 1, 2016, at 5:50 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: Hey Jeremy, A plastic/rubber tube won't be an issue... Best thing to do is get them a refractometer that way the only thing you're putting into the battery is a pipette to remove just a drop or two of electrolyte... The Extech RF40 or RF41 are available on amazon and are generally priced well. Howdy Except that pipette is much too short for series 5000 Surrettes. I've dropped it into a cell before with successful retrieval. A tube extension, with snug fit to hydrometer tube works as well and facilitates a quicker process of cell to cell charge status check in my opinion. I do break out the refractometer at times but it takes lot of moves with acid rag or tissue wipe down process in my opinion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 12:44:01 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 09:44:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump ideas Message-ID: <10DBAB6D-4CC2-4FC8-81B1-11EA316E89F1@gmail.com> > Hi all I've got a pump choice question 140psi lift 3-4gpm max 12' suction out of shallow well 2' water depth in well 2' diameter well Slight sediment, clay mostly. 120/240vac power Submersible won't work, too shallow Slow pump I'm concerned about filter changes Surface pump makes most sense. Any recommendations? Thanks Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 13:13:35 2016 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 10:13:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] CA wrenches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E9EE257-43BD-42EA-A966-ECFBA00285C5@yahoo.com> The Energy Trust of Oregon, the local administrator of the investor owned utilities incentive program, mandated an additional production meter be installed between the inverter in the circuit box for the first 11 years of the program. Finally, they changed that technical requirement so additional meter is no longer needed. A call to Portland General Electric or the Energy Trust of Oregon may prove helpful in developing an argument to dissuade the utility company of this requirement. Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ "Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after." > On Aug 1, 2016, at 8:04 PM, frenergy wrote: > > California Wrenches, > > One of my utilities which is still offering rebates for grid tie went to the Go Solar California website to see that the newest SMA TL inverters (5.0 and 6.0) are on the "approved" list which of course it is. However, in the "Approved built-in meter" column shows a "NO" for it. My utility wants me to add an additional, separate meter to show KWhr power production. I've talked with SMA about this and the onboard monitor gives KWhrs and they've showed me their docs for it, but my utility is still using the fact that the Go Solar site says no. > > How have others dealt with this or is it just my utility that's made an issue of this? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Tue Aug 2 13:26:39 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 12:26:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydrometer tube lost in a battery cell.. In-Reply-To: <3160505ef88a9452d3d87d1afe427375@mail.gmail.com> References: <46870240-382B-4080-9396-BFF78651408F@pacific.net> <3160505ef88a9452d3d87d1afe427375@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Battery utilizing solar electric and glycol utilizing solar thermal wrenches: If you use a Misco brand, model 7084VP your eye is ~7.5 inches away from something less than a drop of fluid (actually a smear of liquid) under a lighted cover. Can you use safety glasses with the Extech model? William, how did the industrial/production hydrometer work out for you? Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 8/2/2016 10:41 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Wally: > > Nice to see your name. I would add this: I hate to have acid too > close to my eyes. > > William > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Wallace Stahle > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 02, 2016 8:13 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Hydrometer tube lost in a battery cell.. > > On Aug 1, 2016, at 5:50 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: > > > > Hey Jeremy, > > A plastic/rubber tube won't be an issue... > > Best thing to do is get them a refractometer that way the only > thing you're putting into the battery is a pipette to remove just > a drop or two of electrolyte... > > The Extech RF40 or RF41 are available on amazon and are generally > priced well. > > Howdy > > Except that pipette is much too short for series 5000 Surrettes. > > I've dropped it into a cell before with successful retrieval. A tube > extension, with snug fit to hydrometer tube works as well and > facilitates a quicker process of cell to cell charge status check in > my opinion. I do break out the refractometer at times but it takes lot > of moves with acid rag or tissue wipe down process in my opinion. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Aug 2 14:26:38 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 13:26:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump ideas In-Reply-To: <10DBAB6D-4CC2-4FC8-81B1-11EA316E89F1@gmail.com> References: <10DBAB6D-4CC2-4FC8-81B1-11EA316E89F1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay Will a Grundfos Mark III MQ3-45 work? With an added foot valve/screen. It comes in 120 or 240 volt and 3/4 or 1hp. Has a built in pressure tank, but I suggest adding an external P/T. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Office: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. > On Aug 2, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Jay wrote: > >> Hi all > > I've got a pump choice question > > 140psi lift > 3-4gpm max > 12' suction out of shallow well > 2' water depth in well > 2' diameter well > Slight sediment, clay mostly. > > 120/240vac power > > Submersible won't work, too shallow > Slow pump I'm concerned about filter changes > Surface pump makes most sense. > > Any recommendations? > > Thanks > > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Tue Aug 2 18:36:38 2016 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 15:36:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] CA wrenches Message-ID: <20160802153638.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.10590b0810.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Tue Aug 2 20:21:25 2016 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 14:21:25 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Classic and SMA's Sunny Portal Message-ID: Wrenches, Do any of you have any experience with the Classic 150's data integration on the Sunny Portal using the SMA WebBox, a Sunny Island, and Midnite's MNSICOMM com box? If so, is it usable/readable to the end-user in the Sunny Portal? Midnite's manual says it is, but I wanted real world confirmation. I have an existing system that is 1.5 yrs old using the above components (sans WebBox). The Sunny Island and the Classic seem to play nice as far as charging correctly, just curious if that "niceness" extends to the data logged and displayed in the Sunny Portal. The clients currently have no monitoring in their home and would like to add that feature. I am leaning towards just using MyMidnite2 and the Local App (as I often do), but I am curious what else is out there in this application. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 440 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Wed Aug 3 12:39:45 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 09:39:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump ideas In-Reply-To: <10DBAB6D-4CC2-4FC8-81B1-11EA316E89F1@gmail.com> References: <10DBAB6D-4CC2-4FC8-81B1-11EA316E89F1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3d71a964c1325ba9af019b363449a510@mail.gmail.com> Jay, Is that 140 “feet” of head, or really 140 psi (about equal to 323 ft of head at sea level)? I’ll assume the 140 psi And I’ll assume that you want to run the pump PV-direct, without batteries or an inverter. Can the “well” be dug deeper? If they can dig it out another few feet or so, creating a deeper pool, that would keep the drawn-out water much cleaner You might want to look at the Grundfos CRFlex surface pumps. They have motors with the same AC/DC voltage specs as the SQFlex pumps, but they also have a control panel where you can adjust the motor speed. These pumps do have higher water flow-rate specs, but maybe you could adjust it down enough to get the 3-4 gpm rate. According to the pump chart, the CRFlex model 1-17 will pump about 4 gpm at 328 ft of head with about 750W of power. Unfortunately, I don’t have enough experience with these pumps to know for sure about the ability or limitations of adjusting the motor speed, but I am looking for a Guinea Pig. (If any of you fine Wrenches out there have any experience with adjusting the CRFlex motor speed, please contact me off-list) Jay - contact me off-list if want to discuss using one of these pumps. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay *Sent:* Tuesday, August 02, 2016 9:44 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Pump ideas Hi all I've got a pump choice question 140psi lift 3-4gpm max 12' suction out of shallow well 2' water depth in well 2' diameter well Slight sediment, clay mostly. 120/240vac power Submersible won't work, too shallow Slow pump I'm concerned about filter changes Surface pump makes most sense. Any recommendations? Thanks Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed Aug 3 20:09:51 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 17:09:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump ideas In-Reply-To: <3d71a964c1325ba9af019b363449a510@mail.gmail.com> References: <10DBAB6D-4CC2-4FC8-81B1-11EA316E89F1@gmail.com> <3d71a964c1325ba9af019b363449a510@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <017a01d1ede4$890779f0$9b166dd0$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Jay, If it hasn’t been mentioned yet, a surface pump will break suction or cavitate if too high from the source, so I’d put it in the hole so it’s not more than 6’ to 9’ above the static water level in the well. You will need a way to prime the pump too. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Teitelbaum Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 9:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pump ideas Jay, Is that 140 “feet” of head, or really 140 psi (about equal to 323 ft of head at sea level)? I’ll assume the 140 psi And I’ll assume that you want to run the pump PV-direct, without batteries or an inverter. Can the “well” be dug deeper? If they can dig it out another few feet or so, creating a deeper pool, that would keep the drawn-out water much cleaner You might want to look at the Grundfos CRFlex surface pumps. They have motors with the same AC/DC voltage specs as the SQFlex pumps, but they also have a control panel where you can adjust the motor speed. These pumps do have higher water flow-rate specs, but maybe you could adjust it down enough to get the 3-4 gpm rate. According to the pump chart, the CRFlex model 1-17 will pump about 4 gpm at 328 ft of head with about 750W of power. Unfortunately, I don’t have enough experience with these pumps to know for sure about the ability or limitations of adjusting the motor speed, but I am looking for a Guinea Pig. (If any of you fine Wrenches out there have any experience with adjusting the CRFlex motor speed, please contact me off-list) Jay - contact me off-list if want to discuss using one of these pumps. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar From: RE-wrenches [mailto: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 9:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump ideas Hi all I've got a pump choice question 140psi lift 3-4gpm max 12' suction out of shallow well 2' water depth in well 2' diameter well Slight sediment, clay mostly. 120/240vac power Submersible won't work, too shallow Slow pump I'm concerned about filter changes Surface pump makes most sense. Any recommendations? Thanks Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Aug 5 09:38:07 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve these communication and warranty issues. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Installer Penobscot Solar Design > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I > gave > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they > no > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and > competent > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > generally going down hill it seems. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From gary at arp-solar.com Fri Aug 5 09:59:25 2016 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:59:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company again. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve > these communication and warranty issues. > > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Penobscot Solar Design > > > > > > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I > > gave > > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they > > no > > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and > > competent > > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > > generally going down hill it seems. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 10:31:00 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:31:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <021201d1ef25$fe2d11d0$fa873570$@sbcglobal.net> We are finding the same problem. Usually it is a problem with an untypical Envoy location (remote barn with a tin roof or a bad cable modem connection) or communications issues between the inverters and the Envoy. Nearly all our systems are operating as expected, and I think the company has good hardware and is otherwise well put together. Customer responsiveness falls way short. Their service people are always quite helpful when they do get back to us. There appears to be a route to remote troubleshooting but it certainly not publicized well. Can anyone tell installers how to connect with a remote troubleshooting URL? Thanks all. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 8:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve these communication and warranty issues. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Installer Penobscot Solar Design > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer > service (good and bad) a lot lately. > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding > to tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, > so I gave up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to > contact them via their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA > or ticket, and they no longer let you update tickets by email. They > are very helpful and competent if you get them on the phone, but who > has time for that?! > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things > are generally going down hill it seems. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 10:19:49 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 07:19:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So what is the micro of choice these days? If enphase is no longer home? Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 5, 2016, at 6:59 AM, gary easton wrote: > > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company again. > >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: >> Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several >> call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also >> have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been >> fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve >> these communication and warranty issues. >> >> Daryl DeJoy >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Penobscot Solar Design >> >> >> >> >> > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service >> > (good and bad) a lot lately. >> > >> > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to >> > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I >> > gave >> > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via >> > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they >> > no >> > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >> > competent >> > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! >> > >> > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >> > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or >> > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are >> > generally going down hill it seems. >> > >> > Jason Szumlanski >> > Florida Solar Design Group >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > T: 740-277-8498 > www.arp-solar.com > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” > ~Ghandi > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 11:50:44 2016 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:50:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <021201d1ef25$fe2d11d0$fa873570$@sbcglobal.net> References: <021201d1ef25$fe2d11d0$fa873570$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Is anyone familiar with the new Kaco Ultraverter ? Its a microinverter with series-connected string architecture *on the AC side*! Pretty crazy. They say the lower voltages (nothing over 60V on the AC or DC side of each unit) reduces stress on components and allows for greater durability. Rapid Shutdown compliant for 2014 and 2017. 97.5% CEC efficiency. Pricing targeted between SolarEdge and Enphase, but willing to get very aggressive at rollout. As 100 year old German company, Kaco's 25-year warranty may offer a little more value compared with some other MLPE manufacturers. The biggest downside that I can see, assuming it works like its supposed to, is the 8-12 inverter-per-AC-string requirement. I'd be very interested to hear this esteemed group's thoughts on this unusual new microinverter product! For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 <%28202%29%20486-7507> [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 8:31 AM, William Dorsett wrote: > We are finding the same problem. Usually it is a problem with an untypical > Envoy location (remote barn with a tin roof or a bad cable modem > connection) > or communications issues between the inverters and the Envoy. Nearly all > our > systems are operating as expected, and I think the company has good > hardware > and is otherwise well put together. Customer responsiveness falls way > short. Their service people are always quite helpful when they do get back > to us. There appears to be a route to remote troubleshooting but it > certainly not publicized well. Can anyone tell installers how to connect > with a remote troubleshooting URL? > > Thanks all. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 8:38 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been > fulfilled. > I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve these > communication and warranty issues. > > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Penobscot Solar Design > > > > > > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer > > service (good and bad) a lot lately. > > > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding > > to tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, > > so I gave up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to > > contact them via their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA > > or ticket, and they no longer let you update tickets by email. They > > are very helpful and competent if you get them on the phone, but who > > has time for that?! > > > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things > > are generally going down hill it seems. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35142 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 12:16:52 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:16:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <022501d1ef34$c7e81a70$57b84f50$@sbcglobal.net> The concept of micros has so many advantages that we will try to stay with them. So what are our best choices now? Feb 2015, Enecsys was biggest in Europe but called it quits; Nov 2014, SolarBridge sold to SunPower (presumably has distribution only in house); SMA? It’s been rocky from its inception and I don’t know how it stands now. ??? Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 8:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company again. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve these communication and warranty issues. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Installer Penobscot Solar Design > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I > gave > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they > no > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and > competent > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > generally going down hill it seems. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From conradg at cape.com Fri Aug 5 12:39:02 2016 From: conradg at cape.com (Conrad Geyser) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same thing going on here Conrad Cotuit Solar Conrad Geyser, Principal Cotuit Solar LLC 508-428-8442 On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton wrote: > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely > reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company > again. > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: > >> Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several >> call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also >> have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been >> fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve >> these communication and warranty issues. >> >> Daryl DeJoy >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Penobscot Solar Design >> >> >> >> >> > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service >> > (good and bad) a lot lately. >> > >> > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to >> > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I >> > gave >> > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via >> > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they >> > no >> > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >> > competent >> > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! >> > >> > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >> > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or >> > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are >> > generally going down hill it seems. >> > >> > Jason Szumlanski >> > Florida Solar Design Group >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >> g/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > > T: 740-277-8498 > www.arp-solar.com > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then > you win.” > ~Ghandi > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wayne at pureenergysolar.com Fri Aug 5 12:58:47 2016 From: wayne at pureenergysolar.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:58:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: Maybe just dumb luck, but we almost always have quick phone tech support from Enphase and always get reimbursed. Wayne Irwin Pure Energy Solar Sent from my mobile device From: conradg at cape.com Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive Same thing going on here ConradCotuit Solar Conrad Geyser, PrincipalCotuit Solar LLC508-428-8442 On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton wrote: just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company again. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve these communication and warranty issues. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Installer Penobscot Solar Design > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I > gave > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they > no > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and > competent > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > generally going down hill it seems. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable PowerStewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.”~Ghandi _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Fri Aug 5 13:16:46 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:16:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good to "see" you, Daryl. I, too was getting a runaround from Enphase and related this to the owner with some 50+ micros. He took on the attack dog posture and got results immediately. Sad that threats and abuse and long waits in phone queue are necessary. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 8/5/2016 8:38 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve > these communication and warranty issues. > > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Penobscot Solar Design > > > > >> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service >> (good and bad) a lot lately. >> >> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to >> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I >> gave >> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via >> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they >> no >> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >> competent >> if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! >> >> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or >> someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are >> generally going down hill it seems. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 13:21:40 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:21:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive Message-ID: Wrenches We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get them on the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont ever see them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used a few other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go out of business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive
Maybe just dumb luck, but we almost always have quick phone tech support from Enphase and always get reimbursed. Wayne Irwin Pure Energy Solar Sent from my mobile device From: conradg at cape.com Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive Same thing going on here Conrad Cotuit Solar Conrad Geyser, Principal Cotuit Solar LLC 508-428-8442 On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton wrote: just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company again. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve these communication and warranty issues. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Installer Penobscot Solar Design > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I > gave > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they > no > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and > competent > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > generally going down hill it seems. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Aug 5 13:41:48 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never mind reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with very good results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech support is timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on optimizers. Ease and safety of installation is excellent as well....and no, I don't work for them :-) Daryl > Wrenches > We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get them on > the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont ever see > them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used a few > other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go out of > business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin >
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM > (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >
>
Maybe just dumb luck, but we almost always have quick phone tech > support from Enphase and always get reimbursed. > > Wayne Irwin > Pure Energy Solar > > Sent from my mobile device > > From: conradg at cape.com > Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > Same thing going on here > > Conrad > Cotuit Solar > > > Conrad Geyser, Principal > Cotuit Solar LLC > 508-428-8442 > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton wrote: > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely > reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company > again. > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve > these communication and warranty issues. > > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Penobscot Solar Design > > > > >> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service >> (good and bad) a lot lately. >> >> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to >> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I >> gave >> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via >> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they >> no >> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >> competent >> if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! >> >> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or >> someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are >> generally going down hill it seems. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > T: 740-277-8498 > www.arp-solar.com > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. > Then you win.” > > ~Ghandi > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver > email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From will at solarenergy.org Fri Aug 5 13:48:48 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:48:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you find that the installation takes longer because you're basically installing a micro inverter and string inverter system at the same time? I've also heard of AHJ's requiring that the inverter be mounted outside because of the rapid shutdown disconnect attached to the inverter. Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, wrote: > Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never mind > reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with very good > results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech support is > timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on optimizers. Ease and > safety of installation is excellent as well....and no, I don't work for > them :-) > > Daryl > > > > > Wrenches > > We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get them on > > the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont ever see > > them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used a few > > other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go out of > > business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. > > Jerry > > > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin > >
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM > > (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > >
> >
Maybe just dumb luck, but we almost always have quick phone tech > > support from Enphase and always get reimbursed. > > > > Wayne Irwin > > Pure Energy Solar > > > > Sent from my mobile device > > > > From: conradg at cape.com > > Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 > > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > > > Same thing going on here > > > > Conrad > > Cotuit Solar > > > > > > Conrad Geyser, Principal > > Cotuit Solar LLC > > 508-428-8442 > > > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton wrote: > > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely > > reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company > > again. > > > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: > > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several > > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I > also > > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been > > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve > > these communication and warranty issues. > > > > Daryl DeJoy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Penobscot Solar Design > > > > > > > > > >> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > >> (good and bad) a lot lately. > >> > >> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > >> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I > >> gave > >> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > >> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they > >> no > >> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and > >> competent > >> if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > >> > >> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > >> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > >> someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > >> generally going down hill it seems. > >> > >> Jason Szumlanski > >> Florida Solar Design Group > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gary Easton > > Appalachian Renewable Power > > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > > T: 740-277-8498 > > www.arp-solar.com > > > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. > > Then you win.†> > > > ~Ghandi > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood > > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver > > email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > > update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org_________________________________ > ______________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Aug 5 13:54:22 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> It is a very simple install. With SolarEdge there is no trunk cable, which definitely cuts down on wire management, especially using SnapNRack mounting. Everything is MC4, so PV wire to a transition box, to the inverter input(s) make it pretty simple. We almost always mount our inverters outside, even when they are string inverters, and typically on the north side of the home/business. My guys didn't like the changeover on the first SolarEdge job, but it only took one to bring them around and they are now converts. Daryl > Do you find that the installation takes longer because you're basically > installing a micro inverter and string inverter system at the same time? > I've also heard of AHJ's requiring that the inverter be mounted outside > because of the rapid shutdown disconnect attached to the inverter. > > Thanks, > Will > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, wrote: > >> Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never mind >> reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with very >> good >> results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech support is >> timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on optimizers. Ease and >> safety of installation is excellent as well....and no, I don't work for >> them :-) >> >> Daryl >> >> >> >> > Wrenches >> > We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get them >> on >> > the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont ever >> see >> > them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used a >> few >> > other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go out >> of >> > business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. >> > Jerry >> > >> > >> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> > >> >
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin >> >
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM >> > (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >> >
>> >
Maybe just dumb luck, but we almost always have quick phone tech >> > support from Enphase and always get reimbursed. >> > >> > Wayne Irwin >> > Pure Energy Solar >> > >> > Sent from my mobile device >> > >> > From: conradg at cape.com >> > Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 >> > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >> > >> > Same thing going on here >> > >> > Conrad >> > Cotuit Solar >> > >> > >> > Conrad Geyser, Principal >> > Cotuit Solar LLC >> > 508-428-8442 >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton >> wrote: >> > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely >> > reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company >> > again. >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: >> > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for >> several >> > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I >> also >> > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been >> > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they >> resolve >> > these communication and warranty issues. >> > >> > Daryl DeJoy >> > NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> > Penobscot Solar Design >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer >> service >> >> (good and bad) a lot lately. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding >> to >> >> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so >> I >> >> gave >> >> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them >> via >> >> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and >> they >> >> no >> >> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >> >> competent >> >> if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! >> >> >> >> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >> >> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or >> >> someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things >> are >> >> generally going down hill it seems. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Gary Easton >> > Appalachian Renewable Power >> > Stewart, Ohio 45778 >> > NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> > T: 740-277-8498 >> > www.arp-solar.com >> > >> > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight >> you. >> > Then you win.†>> > >> > ~Ghandi >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood >> > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >> listserver >> > email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out >> or >> > update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org_________________________________ >> ______________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 5 14:26:13 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:26:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <45cfdafa-264e-5d26-02a0-a3da2892559b@solarray.com> Could you tell us about the metal conduit vs. Romex installation differences between the Enphase and SolarEdge? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/5/2016 11:54 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > It is a very simple install. With SolarEdge there is no trunk cable, which > definitely cuts down on wire management, especially using SnapNRack > mounting. Everything is MC4, so PV wire to a transition box, to the > inverter input(s) make it pretty simple. We almost always mount our > inverters outside, even when they are string inverters, and typically on > the north side of the home/business. My guys didn't like the changeover on > the first SolarEdge job, but it only took one to bring them around and > they are now converts. > > Daryl > > >> Do you find that the installation takes longer because you're basically >> installing a micro inverter and string inverter system at the same time? >> I've also heard of AHJ's requiring that the inverter be mounted outside >> because of the rapid shutdown disconnect attached to the inverter. >> >> Thanks, >> Will >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, wrote: >> >>> Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never mind >>> reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with very >>> good >>> results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech support is >>> timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on optimizers. Ease and >>> safety of installation is excellent as well....and no, I don't work for >>> them :-) >>> >>> Daryl >>> >>> >>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get them >>> on >>>> the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont ever >>> see >>>> them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used a >>> few >>>> other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go out >>> of >>>> business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >>>> >>>>
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin >>>>
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM >>>> (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >>>>
>>>>
Maybe just dumb luck, but we almost always have quick phone tech >>>> support from Enphase and always get reimbursed. >>>> >>>> Wayne Irwin >>>> Pure Energy Solar >>>> >>>> Sent from my mobile device >>>> >>>> From: conradg at cape.com >>>> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >>>> >>>> Same thing going on here >>>> >>>> Conrad >>>> Cotuit Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> Conrad Geyser, Principal >>>> Cotuit Solar LLC >>>> 508-428-8442 >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton >>> wrote: >>>> just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely >>>> reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company >>>> again. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: >>>> Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for >>> several >>>> call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I >>> also >>>> have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been >>>> fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they >>> resolve >>>> these communication and warranty issues. >>>> >>>> Daryl DeJoy >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>>> Penobscot Solar Design >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer >>> service >>>>> (good and bad) a lot lately. >>>>> >>>>> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding >>> to >>>>> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so >>> I >>>>> gave >>>>> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them >>> via >>>>> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and >>> they >>>>> no >>>>> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >>>>> competent >>>>> if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! >>>>> >>>>> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >>>>> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or >>>>> someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things >>> are >>>>> generally going down hill it seems. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gary Easton >>>> Appalachian Renewable Power >>>> Stewart, Ohio 45778 >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>> T: 740-277-8498 >>>> www.arp-solar.com >>>> >>>> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight >>> you. >>>> Then you win.†>>>> >>>> ~Ghandi >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >>> Redwood >>>> Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >>> listserver >>>> email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out >>> or >>>> update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org_________________________________ >>> ______________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dustin at ecs-solar.com Fri Aug 5 15:02:30 2016 From: dustin at ecs-solar.com (Dustin Rodgers) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:02:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <001601d1ef4b$eaf7f780$c0e7e680$@ecs-solar.com> We install 6-8 solaredge systems a week averaging 30 optimizers a job so even at a 1% failure rate (we are seeing slightly higher) we are still visiting 2 customers a week to change out optimizers. Although their monitoring is better than previous attempts by differnet companies we are still fixing comm issues at 2-3 customers a week. Tech support does respond after leaving your phone number in about 45 mins. but usually they are very helpful. We still like solaredge and plan on using them in the future but the grass is not always greener on the other side. Dustin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 1:54 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive It is a very simple install. With SolarEdge there is no trunk cable, which definitely cuts down on wire management, especially using SnapNRack mounting. Everything is MC4, so PV wire to a transition box, to the inverter input(s) make it pretty simple. We almost always mount our inverters outside, even when they are string inverters, and typically on the north side of the home/business. My guys didn't like the changeover on the first SolarEdge job, but it only took one to bring them around and they are now converts. Daryl > Do you find that the installation takes longer because you're > basically installing a micro inverter and string inverter system at the same time? > I've also heard of AHJ's requiring that the inverter be mounted > outside because of the rapid shutdown disconnect attached to the inverter. > > Thanks, > Will > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, wrote: > >> Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never >> mind reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with >> very good results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech >> support is timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on >> optimizers. Ease and safety of installation is excellent as >> well....and no, I don't work for them :-) >> >> Daryl >> >> >> >> > Wrenches >> > We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get >> > them >> on >> > the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont >> > ever >> see >> > them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used >> > a >> few >> > other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go >> > out >> of >> > business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. >> > Jerry >> > >> > >> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> > >> >
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin >> >
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM >> > (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support >> > Non-Responsive
Maybe just dumb luck, but we >> > almost always have quick phone tech support from Enphase and always >> > get reimbursed. >> > >> > Wayne Irwin >> > Pure Energy Solar >> > >> > Sent from my mobile device >> > >> > From: conradg at cape.com >> > Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 >> > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >> > >> > Same thing going on here >> > >> > Conrad >> > Cotuit Solar >> > >> > >> > Conrad Geyser, Principal >> > Cotuit Solar LLC >> > 508-428-8442 >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton >> wrote: >> > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely >> > reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company >> > again. >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: >> > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for >> several >> > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. >> > I >> also >> > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been >> > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they >> resolve >> > these communication and warranty issues. >> > >> > Daryl DeJoy >> > NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> > Penobscot Solar Design >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer >> service >> >> (good and bad) a lot lately. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped >> >> responding >> to >> >> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, >> >> so >> I >> >> gave >> >> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact >> >> them >> via >> >> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, >> >> and >> they >> >> no >> >> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >> >> competent if you get them on the phone, but who has time for >> >> that?! >> >> >> >> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >> >> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power >> >> or someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. >> >> Things >> are >> >> generally going down hill it seems. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.o >> >> rg >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Gary Easton >> > Appalachian Renewable Power >> > Stewart, Ohio 45778 >> > NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> > T: 740-277-8498 >> > www.arp-solar.com >> > >> > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they >> > fight >> you. >> > Then you win.†>> > >> > ~Ghandi >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood >> > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >> listserver >> > email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check >> > out >> or >> > update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org_________________________________ >> ______________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Aug 5 15:36:35 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:36:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <022501d1ef34$c7e81a70$57b84f50$@sbcglobal.net> References: <022501d1ef34$c7e81a70$57b84f50$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20160805193643.353BB102D5@che.dreamhost.com> I have seen a few of the ABB micro systems, by don't have firsthand experience. -----Original Message----- From: "William Dorsett" Sent: ‎8/‎5/‎2016 12:16 To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive The concept of micros has so many advantages that we will try to stay with them. So what are our best choices now? Feb 2015, Enecsys was biggest in Europe but called it quits; Nov 2014, SolarBridge sold to SunPower (presumably has distribution only in house); SMA? It’s been rocky from its inception and I don’t know how it stands now. ??? Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 8:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company again. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for several call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. I also have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they resolve these communication and warranty issues. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Installer Penobscot Solar Design > It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer service > (good and bad) a lot lately. > > Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped responding to > tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, so I > gave > up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact them via > their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, and they > no > longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and > competent > if you get them on the phone, but who has time for that?! > > I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power or > someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. Things are > generally going down hill it seems. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 14:46:03 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:46:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <026001d1ef49$9ef39670$dcdac350$@sbcglobal.net> Still you pay as much for the Solar Edge optimizers as for Enphase inverters plus you have the cost of the central inverter. At some point you are still dealing with high voltage DC, so safety is far better with off the roof 240V AC; you still have the bottleneck if one module is shaded or corroded; and you still have the difficulty of replacing a legacy module to build a compatible string. Again I am not unhappy about Enphase hardware. I just think they've grown too fast to keep their support as well organized as the rest of the company. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 12:54 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive It is a very simple install. With SolarEdge there is no trunk cable, which definitely cuts down on wire management, especially using SnapNRack mounting. Everything is MC4, so PV wire to a transition box, to the inverter input(s) make it pretty simple. We almost always mount our inverters outside, even when they are string inverters, and typically on the north side of the home/business. My guys didn't like the changeover on the first SolarEdge job, but it only took one to bring them around and they are now converts. Daryl > Do you find that the installation takes longer because you're > basically installing a micro inverter and string inverter system at the same time? > I've also heard of AHJ's requiring that the inverter be mounted > outside because of the rapid shutdown disconnect attached to the inverter. > > Thanks, > Will > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, wrote: > >> Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never >> mind reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with >> very good results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech >> support is timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on >> optimizers. Ease and safety of installation is excellent as >> well....and no, I don't work for them :-) >> >> Daryl >> >> >> >> > Wrenches >> > We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get >> > them >> on >> > the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont >> > ever >> see >> > them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used >> > a >> few >> > other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go >> > out >> of >> > business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. >> > Jerry >> > >> > >> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> > >> >
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin >> >
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM >> > (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support >> > Non-Responsive
Maybe just dumb luck, but we >> > almost always have quick phone tech support from Enphase and always >> > get reimbursed. >> > >> > Wayne Irwin >> > Pure Energy Solar >> > >> > Sent from my mobile device >> > >> > From: conradg at cape.com >> > Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 >> > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >> > >> > Same thing going on here >> > >> > Conrad >> > Cotuit Solar >> > >> > >> > Conrad Geyser, Principal >> > Cotuit Solar LLC >> > 508-428-8442 >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton >> wrote: >> > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely >> > reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company >> > again. >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: >> > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for >> several >> > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. >> > I >> also >> > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been >> > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they >> resolve >> > these communication and warranty issues. >> > >> > Daryl DeJoy >> > NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> > Penobscot Solar Design >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer >> service >> >> (good and bad) a lot lately. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped >> >> responding >> to >> >> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, >> >> so >> I >> >> gave >> >> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact >> >> them >> via >> >> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, >> >> and >> they >> >> no >> >> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >> >> competent if you get them on the phone, but who has time for >> >> that?! >> >> >> >> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >> >> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power >> >> or someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. >> >> Things >> are >> >> generally going down hill it seems. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.o >> >> rg >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Gary Easton >> > Appalachian Renewable Power >> > Stewart, Ohio 45778 >> > NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> > T: 740-277-8498 >> > www.arp-solar.com >> > >> > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they >> > fight >> you. >> > Then you win.†>> > >> > ~Ghandi >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood >> > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >> listserver >> > email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check >> > out >> or >> > update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org_________________________________ >> ______________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sat Aug 6 07:43:39 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 07:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <026001d1ef49$9ef39670$dcdac350$@sbcglobal.net> References: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <026001d1ef49$9ef39670$dcdac350$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <7f4f09522321d68a93430ac5ce9c4dd6.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> We pay half the price for SolarEdge optimizers that we pay for Enphase micros. On a system of any decent size the cost is minimally different, at least in our experience. Customer service is important to me, as well as companies doing what they say they will do. Over four months for reimbursement is also unacceptable. > Still you pay as much for the Solar Edge optimizers as for Enphase > inverters plus you have the cost of the central inverter. At some point > you are still dealing with high voltage DC, so safety is far better with > off the roof 240V AC; you still have the bottleneck if one module is > shaded or corroded; and you still have the difficulty of replacing a > legacy module to build a compatible string. Again I am not unhappy about > Enphase hardware. I just think they've grown too fast to keep their > support as well organized as the rest of the company. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 12:54 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > It is a very simple install. With SolarEdge there is no trunk cable, which > definitely cuts down on wire management, especially using SnapNRack > mounting. Everything is MC4, so PV wire to a transition box, to the > inverter input(s) make it pretty simple. We almost always mount our > inverters outside, even when they are string inverters, and typically on > the north side of the home/business. My guys didn't like the changeover on > the first SolarEdge job, but it only took one to bring them around and > they are now converts. > > Daryl > > >> Do you find that the installation takes longer because you're >> basically installing a micro inverter and string inverter system at the >> same time? >> I've also heard of AHJ's requiring that the inverter be mounted >> outside because of the rapid shutdown disconnect attached to the >> inverter. >> >> Thanks, >> Will >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, wrote: >> >>> Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never >>> mind reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with >>> very good results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech >>> support is timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on >>> optimizers. Ease and safety of installation is excellent as >>> well....and no, I don't work for them :-) >>> >>> Daryl >>> >>> >>> >>> > Wrenches >>> > We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get >>> > them >>> on >>> > the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont >>> > ever >>> see >>> > them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used >>> > a >>> few >>> > other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go >>> > out >>> of >>> > business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. >>> > Jerry >>> > >>> > >>> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE >>> smartphone >>> > >>> >
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin >>> >
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM >>> > (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support >>> > Non-Responsive
Maybe just dumb luck, but we >>> > almost always have quick phone tech support from Enphase and always >>> > get reimbursed. >>> > >>> > Wayne Irwin >>> > Pure Energy Solar >>> > >>> > Sent from my mobile device >>> > >>> > From: conradg at cape.com >>> > Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 >>> > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >>> > >>> > Same thing going on here >>> > >>> > Conrad >>> > Cotuit Solar >>> > >>> > >>> > Conrad Geyser, Principal >>> > Cotuit Solar LLC >>> > 508-428-8442 >>> > >>> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton >>> wrote: >>> > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely >>> > reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this >>> company >>> > again. >>> > >>> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: >>> > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for >>> several >>> > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. >>> > I >>> also >>> > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been >>> > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they >>> resolve >>> > these communication and warranty issues. >>> > >>> > Daryl DeJoy >>> > NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>> > Penobscot Solar Design >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer >>> service >>> >> (good and bad) a lot lately. >>> >> >>> >> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped >>> >> responding >>> to >>> >> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, >>> >> so >>> I >>> >> gave >>> >> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact >>> >> them >>> via >>> >> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, >>> >> and >>> they >>> >> no >>> >> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >>> >> competent if you get them on the phone, but who has time for >>> >> that?! >>> >> >>> >> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >>> >> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power >>> >> or someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. >>> >> Things >>> are >>> >> generally going down hill it seems. >>> >> >>> >> Jason Szumlanski >>> >> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >> >>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.o >>> >> rg >>> >> >>> >> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >> >>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >> >>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>> > g >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Gary Easton >>> > Appalachian Renewable Power >>> > Stewart, Ohio 45778 >>> > NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> > T: 740-277-8498 >>> > www.arp-solar.com >>> > >>> > Ã¢â‚¬à “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then >>> they >>> > fight >>> you. >>> > Then you win.†>>> > >>> > ~Ghandi >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>> > g >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >>> Redwood >>> > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >>> listserver >>> > email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>> > g >>> > List-Archive: >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check >>> > out >>> or >>> > update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org_________________________________ >>> ______________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>> > g >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Sat Aug 6 08:14:55 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 07:14:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <026001d1ef49$9ef39670$dcdac350$@sbcglobal.net> References: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <026001d1ef49$9ef39670$dcdac350$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <065901d1efdc$2532b9e0$6f982da0$@solarcentex.com> Aw, one more Enphase / SolarEdge response. The "high voltage" DC is 350-380 volts and with the rapid shutdown capability now shipping standard with SE inverters, they go to 1 volt per optimizer when the AC grid is not present. By the way, that 1 volt per optimizer is a great way during installation to confirm proper connections - string of 10 means an installer should see 10 volts. No bottle neck issue. The optimizer in essence is doing the MPPT function at each module. So if shading, the Opt "finds" best voltage to maximize power output. No string degradation. Mixing modules is not a factor whatsoever. Best part is that since I only MPPT on roof and don't invert, I have a string inverter on the side of the house that only does one function - invert! Why try to invert DC to AC on a HOT roof when I could do it with a much higher efficiency box that is more robust on the side of the house or in a garage? I've gone away from microinverters entirely - too many nuisance faults. And each nuisance fault is a phone call to customer support that is handling more than they can handle by a ratio of...number of MLPE to string inverters essentially. Scot Solar CenTex -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Dorsett Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 1:46 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive Still you pay as much for the Solar Edge optimizers as for Enphase inverters plus you have the cost of the central inverter. At some point you are still dealing with high voltage DC, so safety is far better with off the roof 240V AC; you still have the bottleneck if one module is shaded or corroded; and you still have the difficulty of replacing a legacy module to build a compatible string. Again I am not unhappy about Enphase hardware. I just think they've grown too fast to keep their support as well organized as the rest of the company. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 12:54 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive It is a very simple install. With SolarEdge there is no trunk cable, which definitely cuts down on wire management, especially using SnapNRack mounting. Everything is MC4, so PV wire to a transition box, to the inverter input(s) make it pretty simple. We almost always mount our inverters outside, even when they are string inverters, and typically on the north side of the home/business. My guys didn't like the changeover on the first SolarEdge job, but it only took one to bring them around and they are now converts. Daryl > Do you find that the installation takes longer because you're > basically installing a micro inverter and string inverter system at the same time? > I've also heard of AHJ's requiring that the inverter be mounted > outside because of the rapid shutdown disconnect attached to the inverter. > > Thanks, > Will > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, wrote: > >> Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never >> mind reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with >> very good results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech >> support is timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on >> optimizers. Ease and safety of installation is excellent as >> well....and no, I don't work for them :-) >> >> Daryl >> >> >> >> > Wrenches >> > We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get >> > them >> on >> > the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont >> > ever >> see >> > them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used >> > a >> few >> > other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go >> > out >> of >> > business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. >> > Jerry >> > >> > >> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> > >> >
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin >> >
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM >> > (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support >> > Non-Responsive
Maybe just dumb luck, but we >> > almost always have quick phone tech support from Enphase and always >> > get reimbursed. >> > >> > Wayne Irwin >> > Pure Energy Solar >> > >> > Sent from my mobile device >> > >> > From: conradg at cape.com >> > Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 >> > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >> > >> > Same thing going on here >> > >> > Conrad >> > Cotuit Solar >> > >> > >> > Conrad Geyser, Principal >> > Cotuit Solar LLC >> > 508-428-8442 >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton >> wrote: >> > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely >> > reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company >> > again. >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: >> > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for >> several >> > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. >> > I >> also >> > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been >> > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they >> resolve >> > these communication and warranty issues. >> > >> > Daryl DeJoy >> > NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> > Penobscot Solar Design >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer >> service >> >> (good and bad) a lot lately. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped >> >> responding >> to >> >> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, >> >> so >> I >> >> gave >> >> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact >> >> them >> via >> >> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, >> >> and >> they >> >> no >> >> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >> >> competent if you get them on the phone, but who has time for >> >> that?! >> >> >> >> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >> >> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power >> >> or someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. >> >> Things >> are >> >> generally going down hill it seems. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.o >> >> rg >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Gary Easton >> > Appalachian Renewable Power >> > Stewart, Ohio 45778 >> > NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> > T: 740-277-8498 >> > www.arp-solar.com >> > >> > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they >> > fight >> you. >> > Then you win.†>> > >> > ~Ghandi >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood >> > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >> listserver >> > email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check >> > out >> or >> > update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org_________________________________ >> ______________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >> > g >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 12:03:39 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 11:03:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <065901d1efdc$2532b9e0$6f982da0$@solarcentex.com> References: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <026001d1ef49$9ef39670$dcdac350$@sbcglobal.net> <065901d1efdc$2532b9e0$6f982da0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <79B396CD-A041-42F9-BCAC-60EBA7F956AD@gmail.com> I've done a few SE systems lately and I do like it over the micros. Especially with our extremely cold winters. The clipping was getting ridiculous. I have a few Tigo systems in as well and like those too. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 6, 2016, at 7:14 AM, Howard Arey wrote: > > Aw, one more Enphase / SolarEdge response. > > The "high voltage" DC is 350-380 volts and with the rapid shutdown capability now shipping standard with SE inverters, they go to 1 volt per optimizer when the AC grid is not present. By the way, that 1 volt per optimizer is a great way during installation to confirm proper connections - string of 10 means an installer should see 10 volts. > > No bottle neck issue. The optimizer in essence is doing the MPPT function at each module. So if shading, the Opt "finds" best voltage to maximize power output. No string degradation. Mixing modules is not a factor whatsoever. > > Best part is that since I only MPPT on roof and don't invert, I have a string inverter on the side of the house that only does one function - invert! Why try to invert DC to AC on a HOT roof when I could do it with a much higher efficiency box that is more robust on the side of the house or in a garage? > > I've gone away from microinverters entirely - too many nuisance faults. And each nuisance fault is a phone call to customer support that is handling more than they can handle by a ratio of...number of MLPE to string inverters essentially. > > Scot > Solar CenTex > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Dorsett > Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 1:46 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > Still you pay as much for the Solar Edge optimizers as for Enphase inverters plus you have the cost of the central inverter. At some point you are still dealing with high voltage DC, so safety is far better with off the roof 240V AC; you still have the bottleneck if one module is shaded or corroded; and you still have the difficulty of replacing a legacy module to build a compatible string. Again I am not unhappy about Enphase hardware. I just think they've grown too fast to keep their support as well organized as the rest of the company. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 12:54 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > It is a very simple install. With SolarEdge there is no trunk cable, which definitely cuts down on wire management, especially using SnapNRack mounting. Everything is MC4, so PV wire to a transition box, to the inverter input(s) make it pretty simple. We almost always mount our inverters outside, even when they are string inverters, and typically on the north side of the home/business. My guys didn't like the changeover on the first SolarEdge job, but it only took one to bring them around and they are now converts. > > Daryl > > >> Do you find that the installation takes longer because you're >> basically installing a micro inverter and string inverter system at the same time? >> I've also heard of AHJ's requiring that the inverter be mounted >> outside because of the rapid shutdown disconnect attached to the inverter. >> >> Thanks, >> Will >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> >>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, wrote: >>> >>> Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never >>> mind reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with >>> very good results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech >>> support is timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on >>> optimizers. Ease and safety of installation is excellent as >>> well....and no, I don't work for them :-) >>> >>> Daryl >>> >>> >>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get >>>> them >>> on >>>> the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont >>>> ever >>> see >>>> them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used >>>> a >>> few >>>> other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go >>>> out >>> of >>>> business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >>>> >>>>
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin >>>>
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM >>>> (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support >>>> Non-Responsive
Maybe just dumb luck, but we >>>> almost always have quick phone tech support from Enphase and always >>>> get reimbursed. >>>> >>>> Wayne Irwin >>>> Pure Energy Solar >>>> >>>> Sent from my mobile device >>>> >>>> From: conradg at cape.com >>>> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive >>>> >>>> Same thing going on here >>>> >>>> Conrad >>>> Cotuit Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> Conrad Geyser, Principal >>>> Cotuit Solar LLC >>>> 508-428-8442 >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton >>>> wrote: >>>> just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely >>>> reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company >>>> again. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: >>>> Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for >>> several >>>> call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. >>>> I >>> also >>>> have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been >>>> fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they >>> resolve >>>> these communication and warranty issues. >>>> >>>> Daryl DeJoy >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>>> Penobscot Solar Design >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer >>> service >>>>> (good and bad) a lot lately. >>>>> >>>>> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped >>>>> responding >>> to >>>>> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, >>>>> so >>> I >>>>> gave >>>>> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact >>>>> them >>> via >>>>> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, >>>>> and >>> they >>>>> no >>>>> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and >>>>> competent if you get them on the phone, but who has time for >>>>> that?! >>>>> >>>>> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module >>>>> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power >>>>> or someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. >>>>> Things >>> are >>>>> generally going down hill it seems. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.o >>>>> rg >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>>> g >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gary Easton >>>> Appalachian Renewable Power >>>> Stewart, Ohio 45778 >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>> T: 740-277-8498 >>>> www.arp-solar.com >>>> >>>> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they >>>> fight >>> you. >>>> Then you win.†>>>> >>>> ~Ghandi >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>>> g >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >>> Redwood >>>> Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >>> listserver >>>> email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>>> g >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check >>>> out >>> or >>>> update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org_________________________________ >>> ______________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>>> g >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 6 12:14:28 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 12:14:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive In-Reply-To: <065901d1efdc$2532b9e0$6f982da0$@solarcentex.com> References: <3df2a1e11d99c1df06c113a6c3f99819.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <026001d1ef49$9ef39670$dcdac350$@sbcglobal.net> <065901d1efdc$2532b9e0$6f982da0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Looks like I touched off quite a touchy subject that people are thinking about. For what it's worth, I have actually received Enphase labor reimbursement for eligible warranty work in pretty decent turnaround time, but you really have to stay on top of it. As for the pros and cons of the technology, I still love the MLPE concept because who knows how make string inverters are out there with faults and undiagnosed warranty issues. I feel it is ultimately in my customers' best interest to be transparent with system performance, and the only way to do that effectively is with MLPE. Case in point... I just replaced a Canadian Solar 240P module under warranty that measured 24Voc and 2.5Isc in full sun. It was on an Enphase M215. We probably would have never known about it on a string inverter, especially if there were two MPPT strings attached. Another case in point, on a string inverter I recently found an 8 year old panel damaged by a golf ball, but it was only visible from the roof. Who knows how long it was up there... and it may not have been found for alot longer if the new homeowner hadn't called me for a system assessment. I still favor Enphase over SE. I think they have a better long-term business outlook (my subjective view), but they need to get their short-term issues with dealer support straightened out. That was the point of the original post. Thanks everyone for sharing your experience. Jason Szumlanski On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Howard Arey wrote: > Aw, one more Enphase / SolarEdge response. > > The "high voltage" DC is 350-380 volts and with the rapid shutdown > capability now shipping standard with SE inverters, they go to 1 volt per > optimizer when the AC grid is not present. By the way, that 1 volt per > optimizer is a great way during installation to confirm proper connections > - string of 10 means an installer should see 10 volts. > > No bottle neck issue. The optimizer in essence is doing the MPPT function > at each module. So if shading, the Opt "finds" best voltage to maximize > power output. No string degradation. Mixing modules is not a factor > whatsoever. > > Best part is that since I only MPPT on roof and don't invert, I have a > string inverter on the side of the house that only does one function - > invert! Why try to invert DC to AC on a HOT roof when I could do it with a > much higher efficiency box that is more robust on the side of the house or > in a garage? > > I've gone away from microinverters entirely - too many nuisance faults. > And each nuisance fault is a phone call to customer support that is > handling more than they can handle by a ratio of...number of MLPE to string > inverters essentially. > > Scot > Solar CenTex > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of William Dorsett > Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 1:46 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > Still you pay as much for the Solar Edge optimizers as for Enphase > inverters plus you have the cost of the central inverter. At some point > you are still dealing with high voltage DC, so safety is far better with > off the roof 240V AC; you still have the bottleneck if one module is shaded > or corroded; and you still have the difficulty of replacing a legacy module > to build a compatible string. Again I am not unhappy about Enphase > hardware. I just think they've grown too fast to keep their support as well > organized as the rest of the company. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 12:54 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > > It is a very simple install. With SolarEdge there is no trunk cable, which > definitely cuts down on wire management, especially using SnapNRack > mounting. Everything is MC4, so PV wire to a transition box, to the > inverter input(s) make it pretty simple. We almost always mount our > inverters outside, even when they are string inverters, and typically on > the north side of the home/business. My guys didn't like the changeover on > the first SolarEdge job, but it only took one to bring them around and they > are now converts. > > Daryl > > > > Do you find that the installation takes longer because you're > > basically installing a micro inverter and string inverter system at the > same time? > > I've also heard of AHJ's requiring that the inverter be mounted > > outside because of the rapid shutdown disconnect attached to the > inverter. > > > > Thanks, > > Will > > > > > > -- > > *Will White* > > Curriculum Developer > > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > > w: www.solarenergy.org > > p: 802-272-3092 > > > > PV Installation Professional > > # 093006-34 > > > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:41 PM, wrote: > > > >> Since I am having such a tough time even getting a call back, never > >> mind reimbursments, we have started very happily using SolarEdge with > >> very good results so far. Communications, no problem, occasional tech > >> support is timely, we are seeing less than a 1% failure on > >> optimizers. Ease and safety of installation is excellent as > >> well....and no, I don't work for them :-) > >> > >> Daryl > >> > >> > >> > >> > Wrenches > >> > We have allot of enphase and ya sometimes it a little hard to get > >> > them > >> on > >> > the line but we always do. I request the re-inbursments, l dont > >> > ever > >> see > >> > them as they end up in the admin office. We have looked at and used > >> > a > >> few > >> > other mico-inverters at customer request but they all seem to go > >> > out > >> of > >> > business so we are sticking to enphase for better or worse. > >> > Jerry > >> > > >> > > >> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > >> > > >> >
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Irwin > >> >
Date:08/05/2016 6:58 AM > >> > (GMT-10:00)
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support > >> > Non-Responsive
Maybe just dumb luck, but we > >> > almost always have quick phone tech support from Enphase and always > >> > get reimbursed. > >> > > >> > Wayne Irwin > >> > Pure Energy Solar > >> > > >> > Sent from my mobile device > >> > > >> > From: conradg at cape.com > >> > Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:39:02 -0400 > >> > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Support Non-Responsive > >> > > >> > Same thing going on here > >> > > >> > Conrad > >> > Cotuit Solar > >> > > >> > > >> > Conrad Geyser, Principal > >> > Cotuit Solar LLC > >> > 508-428-8442 > >> > > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:59 AM, gary easton > >> wrote: > >> > just a worthless ticket but no action and certainly no timely > >> > reimbursement if at all. I would never do business with this company > >> > again. > >> > > >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:38 AM, wrote: > >> > Just to renew this line of conversation, I have been waiting for > >> several > >> > call backs form Enphase, with no results, for the past three weeks. > >> > I > >> also > >> > have warranty claims that go back four months+ that have not been > >> > fulfilled. I will not sell any more Enphase, at all, until they > >> resolve > >> > these communication and warranty issues. > >> > > >> > Daryl DeJoy > >> > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > >> > Penobscot Solar Design > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> It seems like we are talking about inverter and module customer > >> service > >> >> (good and bad) a lot lately. > >> >> > >> >> Has anyone else noticed that Enphase seems to have stopped > >> >> responding > >> to > >> >> tickets submitted via their website? Hold times are unacceptable, > >> >> so > >> I > >> >> gave > >> >> up on that, but nobody gets back to you when you try to contact > >> >> them > >> via > >> >> their web form for weeks, even about an existing RMA or ticket, > >> >> and > >> they > >> >> no > >> >> longer let you update tickets by email. They are very helpful and > >> >> competent if you get them on the phone, but who has time for > >> >> that?! > >> >> > >> >> I'm also waiting an unacceptable amount of time on a major module > >> >> manufacturer warranty claim right now. I'd love to see Home Power > >> >> or someone do a story on manufacturer responsiveness to dealers. > >> >> Things > >> are > >> >> generally going down hill it seems. > >> >> > >> >> Jason Szumlanski > >> >> Florida Solar Design Group > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Gary Easton > >> > Appalachian Renewable Power > >> > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > >> > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > >> > T: 740-277-8498 > >> > www.arp-solar.com > >> > > >> > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they > >> > fight > >> you. > >> > Then you win.†> >> > > >> > ~Ghandi > >> > > > > > -- > > *Will White* > > Curriculum Developer > > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > > w: www.solarenergy.org > > p: 802-272-3092 > > > > PV Installation Professional > > # 093006-34 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 8 11:49:52 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 11:49:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase Message-ID: I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. Any suggestions? Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 14:07:40 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 11:07:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E50FF1C-DE05-44C9-A232-4EC8C8908869@gmail.com> Soladeck. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 8, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. > > Any suggestions? > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 15:23:08 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 12:23:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> I use DIN rail mount "feed through" terminal blocks. There's all kinds and you will find some constructed such that no live parts exposed. Michael > On Aug 8, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. > > Any suggestions? > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Aug 8 16:00:12 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 17:00:12 -0300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, depending on the wire size you are using. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. > > Any suggestions? > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Aug 8 17:35:54 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 17:35:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunTech Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can get two SunTech STP-175 black modules? Please contact me off list. Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Aug 8 20:39:36 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:39:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> References: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160809004007.5CBF8103EE@che.dreamhost.com> Be aware that depending upon the vintage of the Engage cable, up to recently the conductors used in their cables are fine stranded and cannot be used in the terminal blocks provided with the Soladeck. This has been acknowledged by Enphase with a revision to their Engage manufacturing spec, and by Soladeck to me in writing. One fix is to confirm the date of manufacturer of the Engage cable ( much of the fine strand version remains in distribution). Another is to source appropriate ferrules to be crimped onto the fine stranded conductors before using them in the standard Soladeck terminals. Also beware of the same issue if you are splicing with these older Engage cables. Most screw terminals like Polaris are also not listed for use with fine stranded conductors. NSI has a special Polaris terminal that is grey that is listed for use with fine stranding, and can safely be used. I saw a few incorrect Polaris blocks pulled from an installation recently that had melted... -----Original Message----- From: "Michael Morningstar" Sent: ‎8/‎8/‎2016 15:23 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase I use DIN rail mount "feed through" terminal blocks. There's all kinds and you will find some constructed such that no live parts exposed. Michael On Aug 8, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. Any suggestions? Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 23:54:51 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:54:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <20160809004007.5CBF8103EE@che.dreamhost.com> References: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> <20160809004007.5CBF8103EE@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <7440169A-5763-4E9A-A4A0-4AE49C825CB0@gmail.com> Thimbles are easy to install and make fine strand wire OK for use in standard connections. Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 8, 2016, at 5:39 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Be aware that depending upon the vintage of the Engage cable, up to recently the conductors used in their cables are fine stranded and cannot be used in the terminal blocks provided with the Soladeck. > This has been acknowledged by Enphase with a revision to their Engage manufacturing spec, and by Soladeck to me in writing. One fix is to confirm the date of manufacturer of the Engage cable ( much of the fine strand version remains in distribution). Another is to source appropriate ferrules to be crimped onto the fine stranded conductors before using them in the standard Soladeck terminals. > > Also beware of the same issue if you are splicing with these older Engage cables. Most screw terminals like Polaris are also not listed for use with fine stranded conductors. NSI has a special Polaris terminal that is grey that is listed for use with fine stranding, and can safely be used. > I saw a few incorrect Polaris blocks pulled from an installation recently that had melted... > From: Michael Morningstar > Sent: ‎8/‎8/‎2016 15:23 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > I use DIN rail mount "feed through" terminal blocks. There's all kinds and you will find some constructed such that no live parts exposed. > Michael > >> On Aug 8, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 9 10:14:30 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2016 10:14:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heart Transverters Message-ID: <20160809141512.7AAC5100B7@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, A client is interested in the Heart Transverter. It doesn't seem like this technology has gotten very popular. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge regarding the desirability of using this product? Why would one want to use it instead of a pair of Sunny Islands? I'm also wondering if it is quirky. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Tue Aug 9 16:53:18 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 14:53:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof Message-ID: We have just found out that a project that we have won the contract on had chosen a corten standing seam roof that does not support aluminium clips due to copper content and potential corrosion of the clips. Has anyone found a cheaper work around than getting a custom Stainless Steel clamp? Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Aug 9 17:46:50 2016 From: LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 21:46:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: S-5 offers a brass / SS set screw seam clamp, S-5-B, we have used in the past on a copper roof… Lloyd S. Hoffstatter M.S. in Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Solar PV Installer #102503-23 Director Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Tittmann Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 4:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof We have just found out that a project that we have won the contract on had chosen a corten standing seam roof that does not support aluminium clips due to copper content and potential corrosion of the clips. Has anyone found a cheaper work around than getting a custom Stainless Steel clamp? Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 17:54:26 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:54:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof Message-ID: Can you use the S-5 brass clamps Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Daniel Tittmann
Date:08/09/2016 10:53 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof
We have just found out that a project that we have won the contract on had chosen a corten standing seam roof that does not support aluminium clips due to copper content and potential corrosion of the clips. Has anyone found a cheaper work around than getting a custom Stainless Steel clamp? Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Tue Aug 9 17:01:22 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 14:01:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Daniel, S5! Makes some clamps out of brass, specifically for copper roofing panels http://www.s-5.com/clamps/index_893.cfm#9 Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Daniel Tittmann *Sent:* Tuesday, August 09, 2016 1:53 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof We have just found out that a project that we have won the contract on had chosen a corten standing seam roof that does not support aluminium clips due to copper content and potential corrosion of the clips. Has anyone found a cheaper work around than getting a custom Stainless Steel clamp? Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 10 02:03:24 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 00:03:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <7440169A-5763-4E9A-A4A0-4AE49C825CB0@gmail.com> References: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> <20160809004007.5CBF8103EE@che.dreamhost.com> <7440169A-5763-4E9A-A4A0-4AE49C825CB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the issue has always been locating the right parts, not the installation. Everyone carries the Cobra X flex, but not the ferrules. We usually crimp lugs on and use breakers with stud terminals, so the need for ferrules is minimal. I have always wondered about the terminal bussbars from Outback and Midnite though. They're ILSCO and I can't find any mention about extra flex, which usually means they are not rated for anything beyond Class B stranding. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/8/2016 9:54 PM, Jay wrote: > Thimbles are easy to install and make fine strand wire OK for use in > standard connections. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 5:39 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: > >> Be aware that depending upon the vintage of the Engage cable, up to >> recently the conductors used in their cables are fine stranded and >> cannot be used in the terminal blocks provided with the Soladeck. >> This has been acknowledged by Enphase with a revision to their Engage >> manufacturing spec, and by Soladeck to me in writing. One fix is to >> confirm the date of manufacturer of the Engage cable ( much of the >> fine strand version remains in distribution). Another is to source >> appropriate ferrules to be crimped onto the fine stranded conductors >> before using them in the standard Soladeck terminals. >> >> Also beware of the same issue if you are splicing with these older >> Engage cables. Most screw terminals like Polaris are also not listed >> for use with fine stranded conductors. NSI has a special Polaris >> terminal that is grey that is listed for use with fine stranding, and >> can safely be used. >> I saw a few incorrect Polaris blocks pulled from an installation >> recently that had melted... >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> From: Michael Morningstar >> Sent: ‎8/‎8/‎2016 15:23 >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase >> >> I use DIN rail mount "feed through" terminal blocks. There's all >> kinds and you will find some constructed such that no live parts exposed. >> Michael >> >> On Aug 8, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski >> > > wrote: >> >>> I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits >>> into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. >>> I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure >>> or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not >>> looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and >>> keep things neat an organized. >>> >>> Any suggestions? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 11:08:30 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 08:08:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> <20160809004007.5CBF8103EE@che.dreamhost.com> <7440169A-5763-4E9A-A4A0-4AE49C825CB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <30170C1E-C828-4A91-8CD2-D46B8BF9642C@gmail.com> I have been using buchannon copper crimps with their plastic snap on "wire nuts" for years to splice rooftop wires (enphase or pv wire to string inverter) inside junction boxes or soladecks. Best connection you can have and I've never had one come loose or melt down. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:03 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I think the issue has always been locating the right parts, not the installation. Everyone carries the Cobra X flex, but not the ferrules. We usually crimp lugs on and use breakers with stud terminals, so the need for ferrules is minimal. > I have always wondered about the terminal bussbars from Outback and Midnite though. They're ILSCO and I can't find any mention about extra flex, which usually means they are not rated for anything beyond Class B stranding. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 8/8/2016 9:54 PM, Jay wrote: >> Thimbles are easy to install and make fine strand wire OK for use in standard connections. >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> On Aug 8, 2016, at 5:39 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> >>> Be aware that depending upon the vintage of the Engage cable, up to recently the conductors used in their cables are fine stranded and cannot be used in the terminal blocks provided with the Soladeck. >>> This has been acknowledged by Enphase with a revision to their Engage manufacturing spec, and by Soladeck to me in writing. One fix is to confirm the date of manufacturer of the Engage cable ( much of the fine strand version remains in distribution). Another is to source appropriate ferrules to be crimped onto the fine stranded conductors before using them in the standard Soladeck terminals. >>> >>> Also beware of the same issue if you are splicing with these older Engage cables. Most screw terminals like Polaris are also not listed for use with fine stranded conductors. NSI has a special Polaris terminal that is grey that is listed for use with fine stranding, and can safely be used. >>> I saw a few incorrect Polaris blocks pulled from an installation recently that had melted... >>> From: Michael Morningstar >>> Sent: ‎8/‎8/‎2016 15:23 >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase >>> >>> I use DIN rail mount "feed through" terminal blocks. There's all kinds and you will find some constructed such that no live parts exposed. >>> Michael >>> >>> On Aug 8, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>>> I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. >>>> >>>> Any suggestions? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Wed Aug 10 14:37:28 2016 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 11:37:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Legacy SW175 Message-ID: <20160810113728.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.566af4299e.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 17:37:45 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:37:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <30170C1E-C828-4A91-8CD2-D46B8BF9642C@gmail.com> References: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> <20160809004007.5CBF8103EE@che.dreamhost.com> <7440169A-5763-4E9A-A4A0-4AE49C825CB0@gmail.com> <30170C1E-C828-4A91-8CD2-D46B8BF9642C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I second Mike Nelson's approach, simple, easily inspectable, rugged. Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer On Aug 10, 2016 12:20 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: > I have been using buchannon copper crimps with their plastic snap on "wire > nuts" for years to splice rooftop wires (enphase or pv wire to string > inverter) inside junction boxes or soladecks. Best connection you can have > and I've never had one come loose or melt down. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:03 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I think the issue has always been locating the right parts, not the > installation. Everyone carries the Cobra X flex, but not the ferrules. We > usually crimp lugs on and use breakers with stud terminals, so the need for > ferrules is minimal. > I have always wondered about the terminal bussbars from Outback and > Midnite though. They're ILSCO and I can't find any mention about extra > flex, which usually means they are not rated for anything beyond Class B > stranding. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 8/8/2016 9:54 PM, Jay wrote: > > Thimbles are easy to install and make fine strand wire OK for use in > standard connections. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 5:39 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Be aware that depending upon the vintage of the Engage cable, up to > recently the conductors used in their cables are fine stranded and cannot > be used in the terminal blocks provided with the Soladeck. > This has been acknowledged by Enphase with a revision to their Engage > manufacturing spec, and by Soladeck to me in writing. One fix is to confirm > the date of manufacturer of the Engage cable ( much of the fine strand > version remains in distribution). Another is to source appropriate ferrules > to be crimped onto the fine stranded conductors before using them in the > standard Soladeck terminals. > > Also beware of the same issue if you are splicing with these older Engage > cables. Most screw terminals like Polaris are also not listed for use with > fine stranded conductors. NSI has a special Polaris terminal that is grey > that is listed for use with fine stranding, and can safely be used. > I saw a few incorrect Polaris blocks pulled from an installation recently > that had melted... > ------------------------------ > From: Michael Morningstar > Sent: ‎8/‎8/‎2016 15:23 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > I use DIN rail mount "feed through" terminal blocks. There's all kinds and > you will find some constructed such that no live parts exposed. > Michael > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an > enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use > some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather > than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits > - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. > > Any suggestions? > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 10 17:51:28 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:51:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> <20160809004007.5CBF8103EE@che.dreamhost.com> <7440169A-5763-4E9A-A4A0-4AE49C825CB0@gmail.com> <30170C1E-C828-4A91-8CD2-D46B8BF9642C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160810215211.0BBFB1026F@che.dreamhost.com> But are they listed to be used with greater stranded conductors than class B or C (7 or19)? -----Original Message----- From: "Carl Adams" Sent: ‎8/‎10/‎2016 17:37 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase I second Mike Nelson's approach, simple, easily inspectable, rugged. Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer On Aug 10, 2016 12:20 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: > I have been using buchannon copper crimps with their plastic snap on "wire > nuts" for years to splice rooftop wires (enphase or pv wire to string > inverter) inside junction boxes or soladecks. Best connection you can have > and I've never had one come loose or melt down. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:03 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I think the issue has always been locating the right parts, not the > installation. Everyone carries the Cobra X flex, but not the ferrules. We > usually crimp lugs on and use breakers with stud terminals, so the need for > ferrules is minimal. > I have always wondered about the terminal bussbars from Outback and > Midnite though. They're ILSCO and I can't find any mention about extra > flex, which usually means they are not rated for anything beyond Class B > stranding. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 8/8/2016 9:54 PM, Jay wrote: > > Thimbles are easy to install and make fine strand wire OK for use in > standard connections. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 5:39 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Be aware that depending upon the vintage of the Engage cable, up to > recently the conductors used in their cables are fine stranded and cannot > be used in the terminal blocks provided with the Soladeck. > This has been acknowledged by Enphase with a revision to their Engage > manufacturing spec, and by Soladeck to me in writing. One fix is to confirm > the date of manufacturer of the Engage cable ( much of the fine strand > version remains in distribution). Another is to source appropriate ferrules > to be crimped onto the fine stranded conductors before using them in the > standard Soladeck terminals. > > Also beware of the same issue if you are splicing with these older Engage > cables. Most screw terminals like Polaris are also not listed for use with > fine stranded conductors. NSI has a special Polaris terminal that is grey > that is listed for use with fine stranding, and can safely be used. > I saw a few incorrect Polaris blocks pulled from an installation recently > that had melted... > ------------------------------ > From: Michael Morningstar > Sent: ‎8/‎8/‎2016 15:23 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > I use DIN rail mount "feed through" terminal blocks. There's all kinds and > you will find some constructed such that no live parts exposed. > Michael > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an > enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use > some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather > than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits > - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. > > Any suggestions? > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 19:06:52 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:06:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <20160810215211.0BBFB1026F@che.dreamhost.com> References: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> <20160809004007.5CBF8103EE@che.dreamhost.com> <7440169A-5763-4E9A-A4A0-4AE49C825CB0@gmail.com> <30170C1E-C828-4A91-8CD2-D46B8BF9642C@gmail.com> <20160810215211.0BBFB1026F@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <5D6DBFC8-6CD1-4A8E-90E0-2BC6C014A828@gmail.com> I don't know what they're listed for but I know that they are very effective. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 10, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > But are they listed to be used with greater stranded conductors than class B or C (7 or19)? > From: Carl Adams > Sent: ‎8/‎10/‎2016 17:37 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > I second Mike Nelson's approach, simple, easily inspectable, rugged. > > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > >> On Aug 10, 2016 12:20 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: >> I have been using buchannon copper crimps with their plastic snap on "wire nuts" for years to splice rooftop wires (enphase or pv wire to string inverter) inside junction boxes or soladecks. Best connection you can have and I've never had one come loose or melt down. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:03 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>> >>> I think the issue has always been locating the right parts, not the installation. Everyone carries the Cobra X flex, but not the ferrules. We usually crimp lugs on and use breakers with stud terminals, so the need for ferrules is minimal. >>> I have always wondered about the terminal bussbars from Outback and Midnite though. They're ILSCO and I can't find any mention about extra flex, which usually means they are not rated for anything beyond Class B stranding. >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 8/8/2016 9:54 PM, Jay wrote: >>>> Thimbles are easy to install and make fine strand wire OK for use in standard connections. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>> On Aug 8, 2016, at 5:39 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >>>> >>>>> Be aware that depending upon the vintage of the Engage cable, up to recently the conductors used in their cables are fine stranded and cannot be used in the terminal blocks provided with the Soladeck. >>>>> This has been acknowledged by Enphase with a revision to > > [The entire original message is not included.] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 10 20:44:05 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:44:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <5D6DBFC8-6CD1-4A8E-90E0-2BC6C014A828@gmail.com> References: <12DE5D45-8DBE-4CBD-9CBF-B843B436995F@gmail.com> <20160809004007.5CBF8103EE@che.dreamhost.com> <7440169A-5763-4E9A-A4A0-4AE49C825CB0@gmail.com> <30170C1E-C828-4A91-8CD2-D46B8BF9642C@gmail.com> <20160810215211.0BBFB1026F@che.dreamhost.com> <5D6DBFC8-6CD1-4A8E-90E0-2BC6C014A828@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d1f369$789a7880$69cf6980$@burt@glbcc.com> Well, I did a little research on these crimps, and they are definitely not listed for use with anything other than class B or C stranding. So although that may be the way someone has done it all the time, that is not a defensible argument when it comes to a code violation. Buchanan-Ideal Splice Cap UL listing E5238 UL 486C UL certificate ZMVV.E5238 This standard clearly defines Class C or B stranding as acceptable The UL 486C standard also describes their use only for Class B or C stranded conductors NEC 2014 Article 110.14 Electrical Connections ‘Connectors and terminals for conductors more finely stranded than Class B and Class C stranding as shown in Chapter 9, Table 10, shall be identified for the specific conductor class or classes.’ So if you are using the older style Engage cables (TC-ER 12 AWG fine stranded cables), you must source appropriate (read listed for this use) connectors. Researching appropriate methods and techniques as well as continual education makes us all better installers. Codes and materials are dynamic in nature and it is up to us to constantly be on guard for changes that affect the safety and reliability of the systems we install. Manufacturers are not always correct! Simply because a manufacturer say to ‘do it this way’ does not mean we should ignore the NEC. I identified the same issue with a dual axis tracking manufacturer recently that supplied SO cord for flexibility and standard Square D circuit breakers/panelboards as connection points. These also were connected together in violation of the breaker/panel listing and they told me they are making a change to supply appropriate ferrules to be used. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mike Nelson Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 7:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase I don't know what they're listed for but I know that they are very effective. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone On Aug 10, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: But are they listed to be used with greater stranded conductors than class B or C (7 or19)? _____ From: Carl Adams Sent: ‎8/‎10/‎2016 17:37 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase I second Mike Nelson's approach, simple, easily inspectable, rugged. Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer On Aug 10, 2016 12:20 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: I have been using buchannon copper crimps with their plastic snap on "wire nuts" for years to splice rooftop wires (enphase or pv wire to string inverter) inside junction boxes or soladecks. Best connection you can have and I've never had one come loose or melt down. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:03 PM, Ray Walters wrote: I think the issue has always been locating the right parts, not the installation. Everyone carries the Cobra X flex, but not the ferrules. We usually crimp lugs on and use breakers with stud terminals, so the need for ferrules is minimal. I have always wondered about the terminal bussbars from Outback and Midnite though. They're ILSCO and I can't find any mention about extra flex, which usually means they are not rated for anything beyond Class B stranding. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/8/2016 9:54 PM, Jay wrote: Thimbles are easy to install and make fine strand wire OK for use in standard connections. Jay Peltz power. On Aug 8, 2016, at 5:39 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Be aware that depending upon the vintage of the Engage cable, up to recently the conductors used in their cables are fine stranded and cannot be used in the terminal blocks provided with the Soladeck. This has been acknowledged by Enphase with a revision to [The entire original message is not included.] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Aug 10 21:32:02 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 01:32:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: How about these? https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, depending on the wire size you are using. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. Any suggestions? Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Wed Aug 10 22:48:10 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:48:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Jeremy, Without digging into the specs on the Ideal connectors, I doubt that they will work with fine-stranded wire. The problem with these types of connectors is that the set screw that you turn to tighten the connection is in direct contact with the wire strands. As you tighten it, it rubs the strands in a circular motion, which will stretch, flatten, and tear the strands. It would work fine if you use ferrules, but not without them. Terminals that are rated for direct use with fine-stranded wire would have a clamping-type terminal, where the screw used to tighten the connection pushes down on a solid piece of metal which then clamps the wire. Even in this case, it may still not be approved for fine-stranded wire depending on its design. The Buchanan splices should be fine. They are basically the same as a ferrule, except that they are crimped with a crimping tool instead of the pressure from tightening a screw in a bus bar. The crimping tool is not in direct contact with the wire strands, so there is no tearing or other damage to the wire. However, the spec sheet does not specify the acceptable wire types, and I can’t seem to find anything with a Google search. It might be worth contacting Buchanan/Ideal to see if they have better info. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:32 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase How about these? https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, depending on the wire size you are using. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. Any suggestions? Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 10 23:43:49 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 23:43:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <20160811034433.647C110681@che.dreamhost.com> The Ideal website for the Buchanan splice has a link to the UL listing for the product. It does not list it for use with anything other than standard stranded conductors. If it is not part of the listing, it is not approved for that use, regardless of historical or anecdotal use. That is what the NEC says, and what the UL listing says and the UL specification for their listing says. -----Original Message----- From: "Brian Teitelbaum" Sent: ‎8/‎10/‎2016 22:48 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase Jeremy, Without digging into the specs on the Ideal connectors, I doubt that they will work with fine-stranded wire. The problem with these types of connectors is that the set screw that you turn to tighten the connection is in direct contact with the wire strands. As you tighten it, it rubs the strands in a circular motion, which will stretch, flatten, and tear the strands. It would work fine if you use ferrules, but not without them. Terminals that are rated for direct use with fine-stranded wire would have a clamping-type terminal, where the screw used to tighten the connection pushes down on a solid piece of metal which then clamps the wire. Even in this case, it may still not be approved for fine-stranded wire depending on its design. The Buchanan splices should be fine. They are basically the same as a ferrule, except that they are crimped with a crimping tool instead of the pressure from tightening a screw in a bus bar. The crimping tool is not in direct contact with the wire strands, so there is no tearing or other damage to the wire. However, the spec sheet does not specify the acceptable wire types, and I can’t seem to find anything with a Google search. It might be worth contacting Buchanan/Ideal to see if they have better info. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:32 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase How about these? https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, depending on the wire size you are using. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. Any suggestions? Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Aug 11 10:03:38 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 07:03:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <20160811034433.647C110681@che.dreamhost.com> References: , <20160811034433.647C110681@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <26dcd5617876a0e120598888055fcc6a@mail.gmail.com> Hopefully manufacturers will steer away from supplying fine stranded wires with their trunk cables – it’s been a joke trying to fine the proper listed reasonably priced parts to make these connections. I bet that a huge percentage of the installs out there are not meeting the listing for fine stranded conductors. That said, we use ferrules on the individual fine stranded conductors and then make the splices with the Ideal/Buchanan splice caps. This particular combo was presented in the SunPower ACPV instruction document and says it is listed for their class K conductors. I haven’t looked up the listing documents myself (at least recently) since this was presented in the manufacturer’s manual. As I posted before, the Ideal splice caps are the bomb! We love them and I’d highly recommend checking them out if you haven’t already. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2016 8:44 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase The Ideal website for the Buchanan splice has a link to the UL listing for the product. It does not list it for use with anything other than standard stranded conductors. If it is not part of the listing, it is not approved for that use, regardless of historical or anecdotal use. That is what the NEC says, and what the UL listing says and the UL specification for their listing says. ------------------------------ *From: *Brian Teitelbaum *Sent: *‎8/‎10/‎2016 22:48 *To: *RE-wrenches *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase Jeremy, Without digging into the specs on the Ideal connectors, I doubt that they will work with fine-stranded wire. The problem with these types of connectors is that the set screw that you turn to tighten the connection is in direct contact with the wire strands. As you tighten it, it rubs the strands in a circular motion, which will stretch, flatten, and tear the strands. It would work fine if you use ferrules, but not without them. Terminals that are rated for direct use with fine-stranded wire would have a clamping-type terminal, where the screw used to tighten the connection pushes down on a solid piece of metal which then clamps the wire. Even in this case, it may still not be approved for fine-stranded wire depending on its design. The Buchanan splices should be fine. They are basically the same as a ferrule, except that they are crimped with a crimping tool instead of the pressure from tightening a screw in a bus bar. The crimping tool is not in direct contact with the wire strands, so there is no tearing or other damage to the wire. However, the spec sheet does not specify the acceptable wire types, and I can’t seem to find anything with a Google search. It might be worth contacting Buchanan/Ideal to see if they have better info. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:32 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase How about these? https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, depending on the wire size you are using. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. Any sugg [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 11 12:55:11 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 10:55:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <26dcd5617876a0e120598888055fcc6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20160811034433.647C110681@che.dreamhost.com> <26dcd5617876a0e120598888055fcc6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So this may be a dumb question, but I'm assuming wire nuts are not suitable for Fine strand wire? I agree that most installs are not code compliant in this regard. Its really tough to find parts or even good info on this. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/11/2016 8:03 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hopefully manufacturers will steer away from supplying fine stranded > wires with their trunk cables – it’s been a joke trying to fine the > proper listed reasonably priced parts to make these connections. I bet > that a huge percentage of the installs out there are not meeting the > listing for fine stranded conductors. > > That said, we use ferrules on the individual fine stranded conductors > and then make the splices with the Ideal/Buchanan splice caps. This > particular combo was presented in the SunPower ACPV instruction > document and says it is listed for their class K conductors. I haven’t > looked up the listing documents myself (at least recently) since this > was presented in the manufacturer’s manual. As I posted before, the > Ideal splice caps are the bomb! We love them and I’d highly recommend > checking them out if you haven’t already. > > Best, > > August > > Luminalt > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2016 8:44 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > The Ideal website for the Buchanan splice has a link to the UL listing > for the product. It does not list it for use with anything other than > standard stranded conductors. > If it is not part of the listing, it is not approved for that use, > regardless of historical or anecdotal use. > That is what the NEC says, and what the UL listing says and the UL > specification for their listing says. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: *Brian Teitelbaum > *Sent: *‎8/‎10/‎2016 22:48 > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > Jeremy, > > Without digging into the specs on the Ideal connectors, I doubt that > they will work with fine-stranded wire. > > The problem with these types of connectors is that the set screw that > you turn to tighten the connection is in direct contact with the wire > strands. As you tighten it, it rubs the strands in a circular motion, > which will stretch, flatten, and tear the strands. It would work fine > if you use ferrules, but not without them. > > Terminals that are rated for direct use with fine-stranded wire would > have a clamping-type terminal, where the screw used to tighten the > connection pushes down on a solid piece of metal which then clamps the > wire. Even in this case, it may still not be approved for > fine-stranded wire depending on its design. > > The Buchanan splices should be fine. They are basically the same as a > ferrule, except that they are crimped with a crimping tool instead of > the pressure from tightening a screw in a bus bar. The crimping tool > is not in direct contact with the wire strands, so there is no tearing > or other damage to the wire. However, the spec sheet does not specify > the acceptable wire types, and I can’t seem to find anything with a > Google search. It might be worth contacting Buchanan/Ideal to see if > they have better info. > > Brian Teitelbaum > > AEE Solar > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Jeremy Rodriguez > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:32 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > How about these? > > https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > Solar Installation And Design Expert > > All Solar, Inc. > > 1463 M St > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: > > Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, > depending on the wire size you are using. > > Benn Kilburn > > SkyFire Energy Inc. > > 780-906-7807 > > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple > conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can > transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted > terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making > splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine > circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things > neat an organized. > > Any sugg > > [The entire original message is not included.] > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Thu Aug 11 12:13:49 2016 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:13:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <26dcd5617876a0e120598888055fcc6a@mail.gmail.com> References: , <20160811034433.647C110681@che.dreamhost.com>, <26dcd5617876a0e120598888055fcc6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Enphase was manufacturing Engage Cable with fine strand (Type K) wiring. Due to the challenges with wire terminals that are being discussed, we switched our manufacturing lines to standard, 19 strand conductors. The transition to 19 strand Engage Cable occurred in late 2015, and the stock of fine strand cable should be largely flushed out of distribution channels at this time. Our manufacturing and distribution channels are set up to so that the product that comes in first goes out first, so hopefully you don't have to deal with this issue again. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy | Field Applications Engineer (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved ™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” - William McDonough ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of August Goers Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 7:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase Hopefully manufacturers will steer away from supplying fine stranded wires with their trunk cables – it’s been a joke trying to fine the proper listed reasonably priced parts to make these connections. I bet that a huge percentage of the installs out there are not meeting the listing for fine stranded conductors. That said, we use ferrules on the individual fine stranded conductors and then make the splices with the Ideal/Buchanan splice caps. This particular combo was presented in the SunPower ACPV instruction document and says it is listed for their class K conductors. I haven’t looked up the listing documents myself (at least recently) since this was presented in the manufacturer’s manual. As I posted before, the Ideal splice caps are the bomb! We love them and I’d highly recommend checking them out if you haven’t already. Best, August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 8:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase The Ideal website for the Buchanan splice has a link to the UL listing for the product. It does not list it for use with anything other than standard stranded conductors. If it is not part of the listing, it is not approved for that use, regardless of historical or anecdotal use. That is what the NEC says, and what the UL listing says and the UL specification for their listing says. ________________________________ From: Brian Teitelbaum Sent: ‎8/‎10/‎2016 22:48 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase Jeremy, Without digging into the specs on the Ideal connectors, I doubt that they will work with fine-stranded wire. The problem with these types of connectors is that the set screw that you turn to tighten the connection is in direct contact with the wire strands. As you tighten it, it rubs the strands in a circular motion, which will stretch, flatten, and tear the strands. It would work fine if you use ferrules, but not without them. Terminals that are rated for direct use with fine-stranded wire would have a clamping-type terminal, where the screw used to tighten the connection pushes down on a solid piece of metal which then clamps the wire. Even in this case, it may still not be approved for fine-stranded wire depending on its design. The Buchanan splices should be fine. They are basically the same as a ferrule, except that they are crimped with a crimping tool instead of the pressure from tightening a screw in a bus bar. The crimping tool is not in direct contact with the wire strands, so there is no tearing or other damage to the wire. However, the spec sheet does not specify the acceptable wire types, and I can’t seem to find anything with a Google search. It might be worth contacting Buchanan/Ideal to see if they have better info. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase How about these? https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, depending on the wire size you are using. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. Any sugg [The entire original message is not included.] The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Aug 11 10:32:44 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 07:32:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <008101d1f3dd$39e424f0$adac6ed0$@solarwindworks.com> When we have the Enphase 240 VAC trunk line branching in two directions we use these 300V rated Alumiconn 3 port connectors, to make them up to the #10 THWN-2. These are a scaled down version of the Polaris insultaps. http://www.kinginnovation.com/products/20/3-port-alumiconn Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase How about these? https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/se t-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, depending on the wire size you are using. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. Any suggestions? Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Aug 11 17:58:00 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 15:58:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Legacy SW175 In-Reply-To: <20160810113728.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.566af4299e.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20160810113728.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.566af4299e.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <19cbea31-27c1-2381-7dcb-672bf8b9a56c@sindelarsolar.com> Bruce, If you don't find a match, Backwoods Solar has made an effort to locate and offer 72-cell 125mm-cell modules, primarily to serve off grid installers and client who need to match existing arrays with 36-cell and 72-cell modules. These are in the familiar ~32" by 62" dimension profile. The Topoint 190s they currently offer may come close to a fit match. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 8/10/2016 12:37 PM, bruce at willpowerelect.com wrote: > Hello All, > > Does anyone have a Solarworld SW175 they would part with? Customer has > broken glass in mid array making odd size substitution challenging, > not to mention electrical characteristics on a string inverter... > > Thanks! > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > *Willpower Electric, LLC* > *4115 S Pacific Hwy* > *Medford, OR 97501* > * > * > *Phone: *541-535-3965 > *Fax:*541-512-0061 > *Email:*bruce at willpowerelect.com > *Web:*Willpower Electric, LLC > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Thu Aug 11 18:27:07 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:27:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Turns out the roof is Corten not copper anyone with experience using brass clips with Corten or do we need to go SS? Thanks for the input. Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:54 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Can you use the S-5 brass clamps > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Daniel Tittmann > Date:08/09/2016 10:53 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper > roof > > We have just found out that a project that we have won the contract on had > chosen a corten standing seam roof that does not support aluminium clips > due to copper content and potential corrosion of the clips. Has anyone > found a cheaper work around than getting a custom Stainless Steel clamp? > Thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Thu Aug 11 18:48:32 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:48:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid In-Reply-To: <7d368052-cc88-3363-3a6b-651078964fa8@sindelarsolar.com> References: <20160727132811.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.aaeff923ad.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <49cebc61-b501-5f8c-955f-f3668560bbf9@psln.com> <7d368052-cc88-3363-3a6b-651078964fa8@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Just had a client with a 20 + yr old top loader tripping the 30 amp input breaker on a magnum 2012 even when running a 10 K generator. Lock rotor current on these old beasts can be a real issue, and it got worse over time. Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Bill, > I concur with Jay. Some of the older top loaders, especially Maytag, were > known as problem loads in the early days. In the 80s Windy Dankoff > developed a kit to run the controls off of mod-square inverter AC but adapt > a DC motor to spin the agitator and tub. Inverters of that time couldn't > handle the surge. I would not expect any high-frequency-switcher inverter > like the Samlex to handle an older toploader. A better modern washer makes > more sense than an oversized transformer-based inverter for that one load. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 7/28/2016 11:43 AM, Jay wrote: > > Spend $600 and get a front loader. > I just checked mine > 150 watt max watt load > .11 kWh > > VS > > 3000+ watt surge. > I've seen old top loaders bury a old stout trace U2512. > It will destroy the samlex > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 28, 2016, at 9:21 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Off-gridders, > > I've got a customer that wants to run a few very small loads (less than 200 watts) but also a 20 year old washing machine (vertical axis). Any personal experiences with inverters smaller than the basic outback, Xantrex, trace, transformer type inverters? I'm hoping to be able to run it with a 1500-2000 watt Samlex. Clue me in please. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Aug 11 18:32:40 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 18:32:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: References: <20160811034433.647C110681@che.dreamhost.com> <26dcd5617876a0e120598888055fcc6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160811223330.396361014C@che.dreamhost.com> No dumb questions. I however cannot speak authoritatively on the twist-on splices as I haven't done any research on them. I suspect after the research I have done, that they do not have a listing for finely stranded conductors either, but that may be for someone else to confirm. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: "Ray Walters" Sent: ‎8/‎11/‎2016 12:55 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase So this may be a dumb question, but I'm assuming wire nuts are not suitable for Fine strand wire? I agree that most installs are not code compliant in this regard. Its really tough to find parts or even good info on this. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/11/2016 8:03 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hopefully manufacturers will steer away from supplying fine stranded > wires with their trunk cables – it’s been a joke trying to fine the > proper listed reasonably priced parts to make these connections. I bet > that a huge percentage of the installs out there are not meeting the > listing for fine stranded conductors. > > That said, we use ferrules on the individual fine stranded conductors > and then make the splices with the Ideal/Buchanan splice caps. This > particular combo was presented in the SunPower ACPV instruction > document and says it is listed for their class K conductors. I haven’t > looked up the listing documents myself (at least recently) since this > was presented in the manufacturer’s manual. As I posted before, the > Ideal splice caps are the bomb! We love them and I’d highly recommend > checking them out if you haven’t already. > > Best, > > August > > Luminalt > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2016 8:44 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > The Ideal website for the Buchanan splice has a link to the UL listing > for the product. It does not list it for use with anything other than > standard stranded conductors. > If it is not part of the listing, it is not approved for that use, > regardless of historical or anecdotal use. > That is what the NEC says, and what the UL listing says and the UL > specification for their listing says. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: *Brian Teitelbaum > *Sent: *‎8/‎10/‎2016 22:48 > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > Jeremy, > > Without digging into the specs on the Ideal connectors, I doubt that > they will work with fine-stranded wire. > > The problem with these types of connectors is that the set screw that > you turn to tighten the connection is in direct contact with the wire > strands. As you tighten it, it rubs the strands in a circular motion, > which will stretch, flatten, and tear the strands. It would work fine > if you use ferrules, but not without them. > > Terminals that are rated for direct use with fine-stranded wire would > have a clamping-type terminal, where the screw used to tighten the > connection pushes down on a solid piece of metal which then clamps the > wire. Even in this case, it may still not be approved for > fine-stranded wire depending on its design. > > The Buchanan splices should be fine. They are basically the same as a > ferrule, except that they are crimped with a crimping tool instead of > the pressure from tightening a screw in a bus bar. The crimping tool > is not in direct contact with the wire strands, so there is no tearing > or other damage to the wire. However, the spec sheet does not specify > the acceptable wire types, and I can’t seem to find anything with a > Google search. It might be worth contacting Buchanan/Ideal to see if > they have better info. > > Brian Teitelbaum > > AEE Solar > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Jeremy Rodriguez > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:32 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > How about these? > > https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > Solar Installation And Design Expert > > All Solar, Inc. > > 1463 M St > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: > > Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, > depending on the wire size you are using. > > Benn Kilburn > > SkyFire Energy Inc. > > 780-906-7807 > > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple > conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can > transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted > terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making > splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine > circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things > neat an organized. > > Any sugg > > [The entire original message is not included.] > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 20:40:21 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 17:40:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24F2844C-8BB6-4F8A-957C-E72EE25DDE5A@gmail.com> Daniel, My own home has a lot of Corten steel elements, roof, soffits, eaves and some doors. Most everything in contact with the Corten is stainless steel, including fasteners, plumbing vents, and chimney pipe flashing. The one thing that is not SS are the gable end flashings which are copper. Last year I pulled one off because I had not gotten a definitive answer as to the compatibility of Corten and copper and was curious. I found evidence of mild electrolysis on the Corten surface where the two materials made contact. I ended up separating the two surfaces with SS. Michael > On Aug 11, 2016, at 3:27 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > > Turns out the roof is Corten not copper anyone with experience using brass clips with Corten or do we need to go SS? > Thanks for the input. > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:54 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > Can you use the S-5 brass clamps > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Daniel Tittmann > Date:08/09/2016 10:53 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof > > We have just found out that a project that we have won the contract on had chosen a corten standing seam roof that does not support aluminium clips due to copper content and potential corrosion of the clips. Has anyone found a cheaper work around than getting a custom Stainless Steel clamp? > Thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 21:30:22 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 15:30:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <20160811223330.396361014C@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160811034433.647C110681@che.dreamhost.com> <26dcd5617876a0e120598888055fcc6a@mail.gmail.com> <20160811223330.396361014C@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: We will not alow any of our people or any subs to use wire nut twist nuts, over the years l have seen way to many electrical issues as a result in someone using the twist nuts, approved crimps are the best way to go with the least space required. Jerry On Aug 11, 2016 1:09 PM, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > No dumb questions. > I however cannot speak authoritatively on the twist-on splices as I > haven't done any research on them. I suspect after the research I have > done, that they do not have a listing for finely stranded conductors > either, but that may be for someone else to confirm. > > Glenn > ------------------------------ > From: Ray Walters > Sent: ‎8/‎11/‎2016 12:55 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase > > So this may be a dumb question, but I'm assuming wire nuts are not > suitable for Fine strand wire? I agree that most installs are not code > compliant in this regard. Its really tough to find parts or even good info > on this. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 8/11/2016 8:03 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hopefully manufacturers will steer away from supplying fine stranded wires > with their trunk cables – it’s been a joke trying to fine the proper listed > reasonably priced parts to make these connections. I bet that a huge > percentage of the installs out there are not meeting the listing for fine > stranded conductors. > > > > That said, we use ferrules on the individual fine stranded conductors and > then make the splices with the Ideal/Buchanan splice caps. This particular > combo was presented in the SunPower ACPV instruction document and says it > is listed for > > > [The entire original message is not included.] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Aug 11 20:53:06 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 20:53:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase In-Reply-To: <008101d1f3dd$39e424f0$adac6ed0$@solarwindworks.com> References: , <008101d1f3dd$39e424f0$adac6ed0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <001e01d1f433$e5f6c800$b1e45800$@burt@glbcc.com> Interesting product, and good for standard stranding conductors, as their UL 486C certification attests. They are however a screw to conductor connection device and will have the same limitation when used with finely stranded conductors as the standard Polaris splices. The Polaris grey connectors have a metal sleeve already in the port as part of the device, which the screw crushes against the fine stranded conductors - essentially performing the same function as installing ferrules on the conductors. Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Worcester Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:33 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase When we have the Enphase 240 VAC trunk line branching in two directions we use these 300V rated Alumiconn 3 port connectors, to make them up to the #10 THWN-2. These are a scaled down version of the Polaris insultaps. http://www.kinginnovation.com/products/20/3-port-alumiconn Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase How about these? https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/se t-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Din rail mounted terminal blocks.... Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, depending on the wire size you are using. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits - just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized. Any suggestions? Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 09:26:38 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 07:26:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule for hybrid inverters Message-ID: Hello wrenches, I am looking for the exception to the 120% rule in the 2014 code that allowed for compliance to the 120% rule to be based on the utility-interactive current as opposed to the backfeed breaker size for hybrid inverter. I hope this still exists, but I'm having a hard time finding it in the 2014 code. In 2011 it was 705.12(D)2 Exception. That was nice clear language that all inspectors accepted, I'm hoping the same exists for the 2014 code. Thanks in advance code experts -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Fri Aug 12 09:39:55 2016 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 07:39:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule for hybrid inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac, The wording changed because in the 2011 NEC 705.12(D) you had to use the size of your backfeed breaker in calculating the busbar loading, but in 2014, 705.12(D)(2)(3)(b) now says "125 percent of the inverter output circuit current and the rating of the OCPD protecting the busbar shall not exceed 120%". So, the 2014 wording basically allows all inverters to follow the exception that used to be there for hybrid inverters. I hope that helps. Cheers, Mark ---- Mark Westbrock| VP, Branch Manager | Employee Owner NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP™ Certified Technical Sales Professional NM EE98J Licensed Electrician 510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001 cell 575.640.2432 | office 575.524.2030 mw at PositiveEnergySolar.com www.PositiveEnergySolar.com On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > I am looking for the exception to the 120% rule in the 2014 code that > allowed for compliance to the 120% rule to be based on the > utility-interactive current as opposed to the backfeed breaker size for > hybrid inverter. I hope this still exists, but I'm having a hard time > finding it in the 2014 code. In 2011 it was 705.12(D)2 Exception. That > was nice clear language that all inspectors accepted, I'm hoping the same > exists for the 2014 code. > > Thanks in advance code experts > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 10:08:37 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 08:08:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule for hybrid inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mark, Thanks for that. It makes sense. My preference would be language that said "utility-interactive current" instead of "AC output current". For a bi-directional inverter, I can see how an inspector would assume that the AC output current would be the current supplying the critical load panel and cause confusion. On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:39 AM, Mark Westbrock < westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com> wrote: > Hi Mac, > > The wording changed because in the 2011 NEC 705.12(D) you had to use the > size of your backfeed breaker in calculating the busbar loading, but in > 2014, 705.12(D)(2)(3)(b) now says "125 percent of the inverter output > circuit current and the rating of the OCPD protecting the busbar shall not > exceed 120%". > > So, the 2014 wording basically allows all inverters to follow the > exception that used to be there for hybrid inverters. I hope that helps. > > Cheers, > > Mark > > ---- > Mark Westbrock| VP, Branch Manager | Employee Owner > NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP™ Certified > Technical Sales Professional > NM EE98J Licensed Electrician > 510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001 > cell 575.640.2432 | office 575.524.2030 > mw at PositiveEnergySolar.com > www.PositiveEnergySolar.com > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hello wrenches, >> >> I am looking for the exception to the 120% rule in the 2014 code that >> allowed for compliance to the 120% rule to be based on the >> utility-interactive current as opposed to the backfeed breaker size for >> hybrid inverter. I hope this still exists, but I'm having a hard time >> finding it in the 2014 code. In 2011 it was 705.12(D)2 Exception. That >> was nice clear language that all inspectors accepted, I'm hoping the same >> exists for the 2014 code. >> >> Thanks in advance code experts >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Aug 12 11:38:38 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:38:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule for hybrid inverters Message-ID: Mark, I read that section as stating that *both* must be true, which I would take to mean if one is using a 20 amp breaker to protect the output from a 3 kW inverter, you need to count it as 20 amps toward the 120% rule, not the 15.63 amps the 125% calculation would infer. I know that 2014 was changed to allow for larger breakers to feed hybrid inverters, but I can't recite the code that allows that (unless I am misreading the intent of the section you quoted). Can you clarify this for me? Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Mark Westbrock < westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com> wrote: > Hi Mac, > > The wording changed because in the 2011 NEC 705.12(D) you had to use the > size of your backfeed breaker in calculating the busbar loading, but in > 2014, 705.12(D)(2)(3)(b) now says "125 percent of the inverter output > circuit current and the rating of the OCPD protecting the busbar shall not > exceed 120%". > > So, the 2014 wording basically allows all inverters to follow the > exception that used to be there for hybrid inverters. I hope that helps. > > Cheers, > > Mark > > ---- > Mark Westbrock| VP, Branch Manager | Employee Owner > NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP™ Certified > Technical Sales Professional > NM EE98J Licensed Electrician > 510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001 > cell 575.640.2432 | office 575.524.2030 > mw at PositiveEnergySolar.com > www.PositiveEnergySolar.com > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hello wrenches, >> >> I am looking for the exception to the 120% rule in the 2014 code that >> allowed for compliance to the 120% rule to be based on the >> utility-interactive current as opposed to the backfeed breaker size for >> hybrid inverter. I hope this still exists, but I'm having a hard time >> finding it in the 2014 code. In 2011 it was 705.12(D)2 Exception. That >> was nice clear language that all inspectors accepted, I'm hoping the same >> exists for the 2014 code. >> >> Thanks in advance code experts >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 12 13:24:57 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 10:24:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule for hybrid inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c701d1f4be$73457370$59d05a50$@sbcglobal.net> All, The 2011 NEC reference for stand-alone systems is 705.12(D)(2) Exception: Exception: Where the photovoltaic system has an energy storage device to allow stand-alone operation of loads, the value used in the calculation of bus or conductor loading shall be 125 percent of the rated utility-interactive current from the inverter instead of the rating of the overcurrent device between the inverter and the bus or conductor. The 2014 NEC made this the rules of the road for all inverter output circuits connected to other sources. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 8:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule for hybrid inverters Mark, I read that section as stating that both must be true, which I would take to mean if one is using a 20 amp breaker to protect the output from a 3 kW inverter, you need to count it as 20 amps toward the 120% rule, not the 15.63 amps the 125% calculation would infer. I know that 2014 was changed to allow for larger breakers to feed hybrid inverters, but I can't recite the code that allows that (unless I am misreading the intent of the section you quoted). Can you clarify this for me? Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Mark Westbrock > wrote: Hi Mac, The wording changed because in the 2011 NEC 705.12(D) you had to use the size of your backfeed breaker in calculating the busbar loading, but in 2014, 705.12(D)(2)(3)(b) now says "125 percent of the inverter output circuit current and the rating of the OCPD protecting the busbar shall not exceed 120%". So, the 2014 wording basically allows all inverters to follow the exception that used to be there for hybrid inverters. I hope that helps. Cheers, Mark ---- Mark Westbrock| VP, Branch Manager | Employee Owner NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP™ Certified Technical Sales Professional NM EE98J Licensed Electrician 510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001 cell 575.640.2432 | office 575.524.2030 mw at PositiveEnergySolar.com www.PositiveEnergySolar.com On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Hello wrenches, I am looking for the exception to the 120% rule in the 2014 code that allowed for compliance to the 120% rule to be based on the utility-interactive current as opposed to the backfeed breaker size for hybrid inverter. I hope this still exists, but I'm having a hard time finding it in the 2014 code. In 2011 it was 705.12(D)2 Exception. That was nice clear language that all inspectors accepted, I'm hoping the same exists for the 2014 code. Thanks in advance code experts -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at insoltechsolar.com Fri Aug 12 14:44:24 2016 From: phil at insoltechsolar.com (Philip Lawes Insoltech) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:44:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Suntech modules Message-ID: <004d01d1f4c9$8e85c3f0$ab914bd0$@insoltechsolar.com> Does anyone know where one can go to purchase a couple of Suntech 210-UB/1 modules? Thanks fellow wrenches. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Aug 12 17:29:30 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 14:29:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Calculating PV Source circuit conductors Message-ID: <26ebbc79765e0be7548f2cfe87284dc7@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: This is kind of embarrassing, but I have struggled for some time to make sense of the NEC requirements to calculate source circuit conductors. I am tripped up by what I consider to be the pretzel logic of 690.8(B)(2) (2011 NEC). The section states that circuit conductors shall be sized to carry not less than the larger of 690.8(B)(2)(a) or (2)(b): (2)(a) is straightforward. You take the manufacturer’s 690.8(A) Isc value and multiply by 1.25 (or the Isc by 1.56). (2)(b) is the one that trips me up. It states that we have to use the “maximum currents calculated in 690.8(A) after conditions of use have been applied.” It does not define conditions of use. What are the conditions of use? Are they wire temperature? Panel temperature? Conduit fill? I always assumed it meant to de-rate the ampacity of the proposed wire caused by conduit fill, ambient temperature and any roof-top temperature adders. However this involves applying correction factors to the conductor ampacity. These adjustments are not applied to the “currents calculated in 690.8(A)…” So if I apply correction factors to wire ampacity I am not doing what the code requires. I have spent considerable time researching this. All articles suggest applying correction factors to the wire ampacity, not to the “maximum currents calculated in 690.8(A)…” As an example, this article in Home Power appears to have it wrong: http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/code-corner-pv-circuit-sizing-current-calculations/page/0/1 Anyone have any idea on what the actual intent of the code is? Thanks in advance, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Fri Aug 12 19:12:24 2016 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 17:12:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule for hybrid inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, As usual, the code is not written as clearly as it could be, but 705.12(D)(2)(3)(b) starts out by stating "Where two sources, one a utility and the other an inverter", so I think that the only logical interpretation is that when it says "the sum of 125 percent of the inverter(s) output circuit current and the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar", that the latter refers to the main breaker protecting the busbar from the utility. Cheers, Mark ---- Mark Westbrock| VP, Branch Manager | Employee Owner NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP™ Certified Technical Sales Professional NM EE98J Licensed Electrician 510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001 cell 575.640.2432 | office 575.524.2030 mw at PositiveEnergySolar.com www.PositiveEnergySolar.com On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Mark, I read that section as stating that *both* must be true, which I > would take to mean if one is using a 20 amp breaker to protect the output > from a 3 kW inverter, you need to count it as 20 amps toward the 120% rule, > not the 15.63 amps the 125% calculation would infer. I know that 2014 was > changed to allow for larger breakers to feed hybrid inverters, but I can't > recite the code that allows that (unless I am misreading the intent of the > section you quoted). Can you clarify this for me? > > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson* > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > Sun Catcher, LLC > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Mark Westbrock positiveenergysolar.com> wrote: > >> Hi Mac, >> >> The wording changed because in the 2011 NEC 705.12(D) you had to use the >> size of your backfeed breaker in calculating the busbar loading, but in >> 2014, 705.12(D)(2)(3)(b) now says "125 percent of the inverter output >> circuit current and the rating of the OCPD protecting the busbar shall not >> exceed 120%". >> >> So, the 2014 wording basically allows all inverters to follow the >> exception that used to be there for hybrid inverters. I hope that helps. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mark >> >> ---- >> Mark Westbrock| VP, Branch Manager | Employee Owner >> NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP™ Certified >> Technical Sales Professional >> NM EE98J Licensed Electrician >> 510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001 >> cell 575.640.2432 | office 575.524.2030 >> mw at PositiveEnergySolar.com >> www.PositiveEnergySolar.com >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hello wrenches, >>> >>> I am looking for the exception to the 120% rule in the 2014 code that >>> allowed for compliance to the 120% rule to be based on the >>> utility-interactive current as opposed to the backfeed breaker size for >>> hybrid inverter. I hope this still exists, but I'm having a hard time >>> finding it in the 2014 code. In 2011 it was 705.12(D)2 Exception. That >>> was nice clear language that all inspectors accepted, I'm hoping the same >>> exists for the 2014 code. >>> >>> Thanks in advance code experts >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Aug 16 12:16:09 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 11:16:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? Message-ID: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> Good day, I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly at the street / transformer yet). I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268'sh voltage at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience and comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home to get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 13:38:48 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:38:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? In-Reply-To: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> References: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: How much of the power produced will be self-consumed, how much will be exported? On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Howard Arey wrote: > Good day, > > > > I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the > meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick > calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is > undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly > at the street / transformer yet). > > > > I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service > needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. > > > > My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the > street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268’sh voltage > at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this > voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. > > > > So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience > and comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home > to get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. > > > > *Howard “Scot” Arey* > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 13:40:01 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 11:40:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? In-Reply-To: References: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Yes, what current did you use to calculate that voltage drop? How big is the PV system? On Aug 16, 2016 11:38 AM, "Chris Mason" wrote: > How much of the power produced will be self-consumed, how much will be > exported? > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Howard Arey > wrote: > >> Good day, >> >> >> >> I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the >> meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick >> calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is >> undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly >> at the street / transformer yet). >> >> >> >> I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service >> needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. >> >> >> >> My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the >> street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268’sh voltage >> at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this >> voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. >> >> >> >> So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience >> and comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home >> to get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. >> >> >> >> *Howard “Scot” Arey* >> >> Owner, Solar CenTex >> >> 254-300-1228 >> >> scot.arey at solarcentex.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Aug 16 13:53:38 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:53:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? In-Reply-To: References: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Perhaps I missed it but you didn't say what you measured the voltage to be at the clients service entrance panel at his house? Christopher On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Yes, what current did you use to calculate that voltage drop? How big is > the PV system? > > On Aug 16, 2016 11:38 AM, "Chris Mason" > wrote: > >> How much of the power produced will be self-consumed, how much will be >> exported? >> >> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Howard Arey >> wrote: >> >>> Good day, >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the >>> meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick >>> calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is >>> undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly >>> at the street / transformer yet). >>> >>> >>> >>> I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service >>> needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. >>> >>> >>> >>> My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the >>> street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268’sh voltage >>> at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this >>> voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. >>> >>> >>> >>> So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience >>> and comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home >>> to get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Howard “Scot” Arey* >>> >>> Owner, Solar CenTex >>> >>> 254-300-1228 >>> >>> scot.arey at solarcentex.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Tue Aug 16 14:58:40 2016 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:58:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted Roof Racking? Message-ID: Wrenchers, Ironridge just pulled plug on their BRM. What are people specifying for small (<15kW) ballasted roof mount racking for PV? Thanks in advance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Aug 16 15:10:03 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:10:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted Roof Racking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've been using Polar Racking which is pretty light (without ballast). ...from my mobile Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 16, 2016, at 12:58 PM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote: > > Wrenchers, > > Ironridge just pulled plug on their BRM. What are people specifying for small (<15kW) ballasted roof mount racking for PV? > > Thanks in advance. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 15:10:20 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 09:10:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? Message-ID: Wrenches We have done transformers for issues just like this with good results, the cost vs the new wire, conduit and trenching must be done to make sure which direction. We have had to use paired mcm 300 to make residentual so run the numbers Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Chris Schaefer
Date:08/16/2016 7:53 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop?
Perhaps I missed it but you didn't say what you measured the voltage to be at the clients service entrance panel at his house? Christopher On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Yes, what current did you use to calculate that voltage drop? How big is the PV system? On Aug 16, 2016 11:38 AM, "Chris Mason" wrote: How much of the power produced will be self-consumed, how much will be exported? On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Howard Arey wrote: Good day, I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly at the street / transformer yet). I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268’sh voltage at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience and comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home to get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. Howard “Scot” Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Aug 16 15:38:50 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:38:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any Exeltech Dealers here? Message-ID: Wrenches, Is anyone setup as a dealer with Exeltech? I need a 22kW MX bi-phase system but they only offer me retail pricing. Please contact off the list: larry at starlightsolar.com Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 16 13:59:30 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 10:59:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? In-Reply-To: References: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <4834a73e3d759dc71c167d82c286e660@mail.gmail.com> Chris: If you do provide transformers I think they are called step-up/step down. Buck/boost transformers I believe are to make adjustments to voltages. I have learned that you need to account for the current flow and direction. For one-way flow, the upstream transformer has a slightly different turns ratio than the downstream transformer to account for voltage drop. With two-way current flow, you might want to consult an engineer (application or electrical) to determine the best, most efficient transformer pair. You can incur a lot of losses with transformers so design is critical. One other complication can occur: In-rush currents can cause nuisance beaker tripping. You may need to buy a breaker with higher AIC rating to compensate for this. Also, I bought a transformer from a reputable manufacturer that had mis-labeled terminals. The smell was hard to forget. I suggest you ohm-out any transformer to identify terminals on the same and different windings. In general, this kind of project can have some unforeseen complications. I am not that experienced, but the experience I do have has come at some cost. I hope to help you and fellow wrenches avoid some of that pain. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 10:39 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? How much of the power produced will be self-consumed, how much will be exported? On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Howard Arey wrote: Good day, I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly at the street / transformer yet). I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268’sh voltage at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience and comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home to get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. *Howard “Scot” Arey* Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Aug 16 14:15:50 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:15:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? In-Reply-To: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> References: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <20160816181610.7CB6C1060A@che.dreamhost.com> Maybe a 208v inverter will fit the bill? -----Original Message----- From: "Howard Arey" Sent: ‎8/‎16/‎2016 12:16 To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? Good day, I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly at the street / transformer yet). I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268'sh voltage at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience and comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home to get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 16 15:10:26 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 12:10:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted Roof Racking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b8912265575111decd1e7273f4376fa@mail.gmail.com> Nick: We have used Dynoraxx for roof and ground mount. Not great but decent. http://dynoraxx.com/ William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Nik Ponzio, Building Energy *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 11:59 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Ballasted Roof Racking? Wrenchers, Ironridge just pulled plug on their BRM. What are people specifying for small (<15kW) ballasted roof mount racking for PV? Thanks in advance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Aug 16 15:16:18 2016 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:16:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? Message-ID: <02fe01d1f7f2$aa8d7a80$ffa86f80$@solarcentex.com> Answers to all: No - I did not measure voltage at the house. Right now, only an assumption of voltage drop based on my perception of what "typical" loads might be on this 150-amp service. I wasn't expecting to see such small wires for such a long run from transformer to house when I showed up there without a voltmeter. He is a heavy user, using 6,000 kwh in some months We're looking at a 20KW system (he has some other expansion requirements, he has the roof space, and the need.) I roughly estimate that he'll use onsite 40-50 amps of the 82 amps at peak inverter power output. Interesting to hear of one transformer response and hope to learn more on that, too. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com www.solarcentex.com https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex Rated #1 Solar Installer in Texas by Solar Reviews -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 48536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 14:09:07 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 11:09:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian issues Message-ID: <0E861CA9-9AC3-4434-94E1-A87BE928CF1E@gmail.com> Hi all I was contacted by someone offsite about a 5 stack outback radian, grid connected that is having all sorts of problems. He's been in long contact with OB engineering but still no answers. If anyone has experience with such a critter, please let me know. Thanks Jay Peltz power. From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 16:03:02 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 16:03:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? In-Reply-To: <4834a73e3d759dc71c167d82c286e660@mail.gmail.com> References: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> <4834a73e3d759dc71c167d82c286e660@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Just a note: AIC has nothing to do with breaker trip amperage ratings or nuisance tripping, it has to do with the ability of the switchgear to interrupt very large fault currents for very short periods such as you would find close to a utility transformer with very low impedance in the event of service failure. AIC ratings go from 10,000 amps to millions. Buck/boost and Step up/step down are the same thing. On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 1:59 PM, William Miller wrote: > Chris: > > > > If you do provide transformers I think they are called step-up/step down. > Buck/boost transformers I believe are to make adjustments to voltages. > > > > I have learned that you need to account for the current flow and > direction. For one-way flow, the upstream transformer has a slightly > different turns ratio than the downstream transformer to account for > voltage drop. With two-way current flow, you might want to consult an > engineer (application or electrical) to determine the best, most efficient > transformer pair. You can incur a lot of losses with transformers so > design is critical. > > > > One other complication can occur: In-rush currents can cause nuisance > beaker tripping. You may need to buy a breaker with higher AIC rating to > compensate for this. > > > > Also, I bought a transformer from a reputable manufacturer that had > mis-labeled terminals. The smell was hard to forget. I suggest you > ohm-out any transformer to identify terminals on the same and different > windings. > > > > In general, this kind of project can have some unforeseen complications. > I am not that experienced, but the experience I do have has come at some > cost. I hope to help you and fellow wrenches avoid some of that pain. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 10:39 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high > voltage drop? > > > > How much of the power produced will be self-consumed, how much will be > exported? > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Howard Arey > wrote: > > Good day, > > > > I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the > meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick > calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is > undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly > at the street / transformer yet). > > > > I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service > needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. > > > > My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the > street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268’sh voltage > at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this > voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. > > > > So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience > and comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home > to get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. > > > > *Howard “Scot” Arey* > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Mason > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Design Engineer > > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > > www.cometsolar.com > > 264.235.5670 > > 869.662.5670 > > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 16 16:23:27 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:23:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? In-Reply-To: <02fe01d1f7f2$aa8d7a80$ffa86f80$@solarcentex.com> References: <02fe01d1f7f2$aa8d7a80$ffa86f80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: My guess is that in your case the GTPV will just help alleviate the volt=20 drop situation. I wouldn't start adding transformers, etc until you are=20 having a problem. Put in the contract that this extra cost may be=20 necessary for proper function, but I would keep it as a backup. Based=20 on the numbers you just mentioned, you would only be selling a surplus=20 of 30 amps, and the existing wire should be adequate for that. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/16/2016 1:16 PM, Howard Arey wrote: > > Answers to all: > > No =E2=80=93 I did not measure voltage at the house. Right now, only an=20 > assumption of voltage drop based on my perception of what =E2=80=9Ctypica= l=E2=80=9D=20 > loads might be on this 150-amp service. I wasn=E2=80=99t expecting to see= such=20 > small wires for such a long run from transformer to house when I=20 > showed up there without a voltmeter. He is a heavy user, using 6,000=20 > kwh in some months > > We=E2=80=99re looking at a 20KW system (he has some other expansion=20 > requirements, he has the roof space, and the need.) I roughly estimate=20 > that he=E2=80=99ll use onsite 40-50 amps of the 82 amps at peak inverter = power=20 > output. > > Interesting to hear of one transformer response and hope to learn more=20 > on that, too. > > *Howard =E2=80=9CScot=E2=80=9D Arey* > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > www.solarcentex.com > > https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex > > Rated #1 Solar Installer in Texas by Solar Reviews=20 > __ > > Solar Centex Logo - No Back > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 48536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 16 16:14:10 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:14:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? In-Reply-To: References: <018a01d1f7d9$80213980$8063ac80$@solarcentex.com> <4834a73e3d759dc71c167d82c286e660@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <90a7caa5511266dc9486fc9f366156a5@mail.gmail.com> Chris: All I know is an application engineer with the transformer manufacturer suggested the higher AIC breaker and it solved the nuisance tripping. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 1:03 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? Just a note: AIC has nothing to do with breaker trip amperage ratings or nuisance tripping, it has to do with the ability of the switchgear to interrupt very large fault currents for very short periods such as you would find close to a utility transformer with very low impedance in the event of service failure. AIC ratings go from 10,000 amps to millions. Buck/boost and Step up/step down are the same thing. On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 1:59 PM, William Miller wrote: Chris: If you do provide transformers I think they are called step-up/step down. Buck/boost transformers I believe are to make adjustments to voltages. I have learned that you need to account for the current flow and direction. For one-way flow, the upstream transformer has a slightly different turns ratio than the downstream transformer to account for voltage drop. With two-way current flow, you might want to consult an engineer (application or electrical) to determine the best, most efficient transformer pair. You can incur a lot of losses with transformers so design is critical. One other complication can occur: In-rush currents can cause nuisance beaker tripping. You may need to buy a breaker with higher AIC rating to compensate for this. Also, I bought a transformer from a reputable manufacturer that had mis-labeled terminals. The smell was hard to forget. I suggest you ohm-out any transformer to identify terminals on the same and different windings. In general, this kind of project can have some unforeseen complications. I am not that experienced, but the experience I do have has come at some cost. I hope to help you and fellow wrenches avoid some of that pain. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 10:39 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? How much of the power produced will be self-consumed, how much will be exported? On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Howard Arey wrote: Good day, I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly at the street / transformer yet). I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268’sh voltage at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience and comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home to get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. *Howard “Scot” Arey* Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kanestephenj at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 18:26:27 2016 From: kanestephenj at gmail.com (Stephen K) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 16:26:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Which commercial string inverters? Message-ID: Hello RE-Wrenches, I'm a long time recipient of great knowledge, experience and advice from this list, but I've been an infrequent poster. I'm curious about this list's opinion on the current status of the Commercial sized string inverter product options (from ~10kW to 80kW, 600 and 1000VDC flavors). What are your preferred inverters for ~250kW to ~2MW, US based installations (any mounting type - ground-mount, rooftop, carport etc)? How would you rank the most well-known brands considering any of the following categories: a) quality and reliability / uptime b) long-term O&M issues c) Tech Support and RMA processes d) DAS (or SCADA) factors and challenges e) cost f) flexibility with design variables g) arc fault issues h) rapid shut down i) firmware/software glitches j) other Some brand name suggestions we've become familiar with over the years include - Fronius, SMA, Solectria, Chint, AE, ABB, Kaco, Refusol, Huawei, SunGrow....and more.... Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone, *Stephen Kane* *Namaste Solar* *Co-Owner | Commercial Service and O&M* *NABCEP Certified in Solar PV Installation* *303.447.0300 x308 <303.447.0300%20x308>* *stephen.kane at namastesolar.com * 4571 Broadway Street | Boulder, Colorado 80304 3330 Larimer Street, Suite 1A | Denver, Colorado 80205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 23:39:08 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 17:39:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Which commercial string inverters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches We do lots of bigger systems and our inverter of choice has been SMA, we have seen many manufacturers either fail or be bought out, neither we have any control over but considering issues SMA has had the least of any. We have used fronius, AE, ABB, and satcon some filled with rain water, some just die, so far SMA has been good on all fronts with 15 tripower 24 k`s on line at one location all in the weather 100% on line, we have 50 k at the wetest locations there is and they work well there too. Jerry On Aug 16, 2016 12:26 PM, "Stephen K" wrote: > Hello RE-Wrenches, > > > I'm a long time recipient of great knowledge, experience and advice from > this list, but I've been an infrequent poster. > > > I'm curious about this list's opinion on the current status of the > Commercial sized string inverter product options (from ~10kW to 80kW, 600 > and 1000VDC flavors). > > What are your preferred inverters for ~250kW to ~2MW, US based > installations (any mounting type - ground-mount, rooftop, carport etc)? > > > How would you rank the most well-known brands considering any of the > following categories: > > > > a) quality and reliability / uptime > > b) long-term O&M issues > > c) Tech Support and RMA processes > > d) DAS (or SCADA) factors and challenges > > e) cost > > f) flexibility with design variables > > g) arc fault issues > > h) rapid shut down > > i) firmware/software glitches > > j) other > > > Some brand name suggestions we've become familiar with over the years > include - Fronius, SMA, Solectria, Chint, AE, ABB, Kaco, Refusol, Huawei, > SunGrow....and more.... > > > Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone, > > > > *Stephen Kane* > > *Namaste Solar* > > *Co-Owner | Commercial Service and O&M* > > *NABCEP Certified in Solar PV Installation* > > *303.447.0300 x308 <303.447.0300%20x308>* > > *stephen.kane at namastesolar.com * > > 4571 Broadway Street | Boulder, Colorado 80304 > > 3330 Larimer Street, Suite 1A | Denver, Colorado 80205 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Wed Aug 17 02:12:50 2016 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 23:12:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Buck-Boost_transformer_to_mitigate_high_v?= =?utf-8?q?oltage_drop=3F?= Message-ID: <20160816231250.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c9cb770f70.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Aug 17 08:24:55 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 08:24:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian issues In-Reply-To: <0E861CA9-9AC3-4434-94E1-A87BE928CF1E@gmail.com> References: <0E861CA9-9AC3-4434-94E1-A87BE928CF1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay, I'd love to hear from others on this one. I got pulled into a 6 Radian system w/ 6 Fronius in an AC coupled setup. This was designed and installed by a straight grid-tied company and they admittedly said they would do it differently. Now the client is threatening to sue the original installer as only 2 of the Radian's can be used in back up mode. I don't know about the rest of the wrenches but half of my work these days is cleaning up the "gridtied only" companies battery systems. BTW, the AC coupled system was designed as a brand new system, not an add on and the PV is within 50 feet of the inverters. Christopher On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I was contacted by someone offsite about a 5 stack outback radian, grid > connected that is having all sorts of problems. > He's been in long contact with OB engineering but still no answers. > > If anyone has experience with such a critter, please let me know. > > Thanks > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Aug 18 10:19:37 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 07:19:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Which commercial string inverters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Stephen, My most recent experience has been with SMA Tripower and Fronius Symo inverters. Previously, we installed dozens of Power-One (ABB) PVI 10.0 and 12.0 inverters in the < 2015 time period. Although I’ve heard lots of bad stories about those inverters, ours have been quite reliable overall. We had a couple go down that we were replaced under warranty. They were all 208 volt services on those sites for mostly multifamily buildings. We’ve installed the SMA Tripowers in both 1000 VDC and 600 VDC configurations. The 1000 VDC project was hard but I think that’s because it was our first time and we did it right when the inverters were new back in 2013. We have had ongoing problems with one of the 24k units on that site mostly relating to tripping offline due to inductance or arc fault issues. We have replaced the one problem unit and updated firmware several times and now all is well. Other more recently installed sites with the SMA Tripowers worked flawlessly. Tech support with SMA is mostly positive, but sometimes it is hard to get a hold of someone when you need to. We have not commissioned the Fronius Symo sites yet so I can’t comment on how well they work. This is outside of your system target size range, but we recently installed a couple of SolarEdge 14.4 k units. In the 480 volt variant, I think they are available up to 33.3 kW. Anyway, they are amazingly small for their output size and bought us a lot of design flexibility. Only time will tell how reliable the SE inverters and optimizers will be. All in all, we always review all options for a given project and start looking at cost compared to design constraints to select the best inverter(s) for the project. I’m hopeful that Fronius’ new line will perform well because their cost and feature set are appealing. Cheers, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Stephen K *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 3:26 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Which commercial string inverters? Hello RE-Wrenches, I'm a long time recipient of great knowledge, experience and advice from this list, but I've been an infrequent poster. I'm curious about this list's opinion on the current status of the Commercial sized string inverter product options (from ~10kW to 80kW, 600 and 1000VDC flavors). What are your preferred inverters for ~250kW to ~2MW, US based installations (any mounting type - ground-mount, rooftop, carport etc)? How would you rank the most well-known brands considering any of the following categories: a) quality and reliability / uptime b) long-term O&M issues c) Tech Support and RMA processes d) DAS (or SCADA) factors and challenges e) cost f) flexibility with design variables g) arc fault issues h) rapid shut down i) firmware/software glitches j) other Some brand name suggestions we've become familiar with over the years include - Fronius, SMA, Solectria, Chint, AE, ABB, Kaco, Refusol, Huawei, SunGrow....and more.... Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone, *Stephen Kane* *Namaste Solar* *Co-Owner | Commercial Service and O&M* *NABCEP Certified in Solar PV Installation* *303.447.0300 x308 <303.447.0300%20x308>* *stephen.kane at namastesolar.com * 4571 Broadway Street | Boulder, Colorado 80304 3330 Larimer Street, Suite 1A | Denver, Colorado 80205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Aug 18 11:49:58 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 11:49:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high voltage drop? In-Reply-To: <20160816231250.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c9cb770f70.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20160816231250.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c9cb770f70.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: I've had the exact same problem except we also had high voltage at the transformer due to a utility substation being rebuilt. We had to open the voltage window of the inverter and that solved the issues. On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 2:12 AM, wrote: > Howard- > Any voltage drop at the house will be a function of current drawn by the > house load. Shut off most loads and there will be minimal voltage drop. If > there was a low voltage issue now before solar is installed, there would be > symptoms like florescent lights not working well. That's why they flicker > when a big motor kicks on nearby. > A transformer could be used to boost the voltage to the house, but that > assumes more or less constant load. When the house load is low there is > minimal voltage drop and the boosted voltage may become too high. The > utility service transformer may have different wire taps to adjust its > output voltage as well. But again, this assumes more or less constant load. > When there are long wire runs it is more common to use a pair of > transformers, one at the utility drop and one at the house, to boost (or > step up) the voltage at the service drop end to, say, 480 with a 2:1 > transformer. That is, the ratio of number of primary to secondary windings > is 2:1. Then at the house another matching transformer bucks (steps down) > the voltage back to 240. > The current in the long wire run is cut in half, and so is voltage drop. > This boosted voltage can be higher-- thousands of volts are not uncommon > on ranch properties with miles-long wire runs. > > A solar inverter senses the voltage at it's connection point, and raises > it's voltage a couple volts higher to push solar current into the wire. If > there is voltage drop in the wire, the solar inverter must raise it's > voltage even higher to overcome voltage drop and still be a couple volts > above the grid. If voltage drop is severe, the inverter will sense that > it's voltage is getting too high out of range and fault with a grid voltage > error. Grid voltage is not changing, inverter voltage is. > For example, we had an inverter sited at a 10 KW array connected to a > garage with 200' of existing 6 AWG AL buried wire. The attendant voltage > drop from nearly 40 amps solar current caused the inverter to raise it's > own voltage so much to overcome voltage drop that it faulted. It was > necessary to tweak the software settings to allow the voltage range to be > extended. > > When your client's 20 KW solar inverter is sited at the house, any solar > current will first be consumed by the house loads. This reduces current > through the long wire run and so reduces voltage drop. When the solar > current matches the house loads, no current flows through the long wire run > and there is no voltage drop. Everyone is happy, except the utility company > who now doesn't get to sell energy. > Excess solar current not consumed by house loads will run back through the > long wire to the utility grid, causing some voltage drop. This must be > overcome by the inverter raising it's voltage to still be a couple volts > over grid-voltage-plus-voltage-drop. > Without running the numbers I suspect that the less-than-40 solar amps you > may run into 4/0 AL wire will not be a problem. > > You will want to measure the voltage at the house under low and maximum > load conditions. > If the load is at max when the sun shines, a solar inverter will tend to > help alleviate any low voltage issue at the house, as Ray W. wrote. > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:23:27 -0600 > From: Ray Walters > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Buck-Boost transformer to mitigate high > voltage drop? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" > > My guess is that in your case the GTPV will just help alleviate the volt > drop situation. I wouldn't start adding transformers, etc until you are > having a problem. Put in the contract that this extra cost may be > necessary for proper function, but I would keep it as a backup. Based > on the numbers you just mentioned, you would only be selling a surplus > of 30 amps, and the existing wire should be adequate for that. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 8/16/2016 1:16 PM, Howard Arey wrote: > > > > Answers to all: > > > > No ? I did not measure voltage at the house. Right now, only an > > assumption of voltage drop based on my perception of what ?typical? > > loads might be on this 150-amp service. I wasn?t expecting to see such > > small wires for such a long run from transformer to house when I > > showed up there without a voltmeter. He is a heavy user, using 6,000 > > kwh in some months > > > > We?re looking at a 20KW system (he has some other expansion > > requirements, he has the roof space, and the need.) I roughly estimate > > that he?ll use onsite 40-50 amps of the 82 amps at peak inverter power > > output. > > > > Interesting to hear of one transformer response and hope to learn more > > on that, too. > > > > *Howard ?Scot? Arey* > > > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > > > 254-300-1228 > > > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > www.solarcentex.com > > > > https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex > > > > Rated #1 Solar Installer in Texas by Solar Reviews > > residential-solar-power-contractors-2016/texas/>__ > > > > Solar Centex Logo - No Back > > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Howard Arey > wrote: > > Good day, > > > > I have a potential client that has an existing 1,000 foot run from the > meter and transformer at the street to the home. This is 4/0 Al and quick > calcs show the voltage drop at over 12%. He acknowledges that the wire is > undersized to keep voltage at/about 240 volts (I have not measured directly > at the street / transformer yet). > > > > I know the wire has the necessary ampacity to carry his current service > needs and to carry amps from the to-be-suggested solar system. > > > > My concern is that the voltage drop will change the 240 volts at the > street/transformer/meter to 211ish (or will I see a higher 268?sh voltage > at the far house end?) at the house. The inverter will try to synch to this > voltage but of course this is outside of typical inverter parameters. > > > > So, instead of re-running much large wire, does anybody have experience and > comments about potentially using a buck-boots transformer at the home to > get us back to 240 volts? This would need to be service entrance sized. > > > > *Howard ?Scot? Arey* > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Aug 18 12:13:54 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 09:13:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Buck-Boost_transformer_to_mitigate_high_v?= =?utf-8?q?oltage_drop=3F?= Message-ID: <20160818091354.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.742061b23b.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Aug 21 17:13:14 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2016 17:13:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dependable kWh meters Message-ID: <20160821211319.F3AC0101FC@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a good source for dependable kWh meters to fit in a standard meter base. I've gotten dozens from the Hialeah Meter CO. Most seem to be fine, but a number of them have become inaccurate (or just quit). In most situations it is possible to detect error by comparison with the inverter meter or the on-line monitoring. In some applications, an inaccurate meter would be hard to detect. Is there a source of bang on accurate kWh meters? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sun Aug 21 17:33:03 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2016 14:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dependable kWh meters In-Reply-To: <20160821211319.F3AC0101FC@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160821211319.F3AC0101FC@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <1471815183.837219222@email.finestplanet.com> i have bought from these folks and never had any problems. todd [ http://www.visionmetering.com/refurbished-electric-meters/ ]( http://www.visionmetering.com/refurbished-electric-meters/ ) On Sunday, August 21, 2016 2:13pm, "Drake" said: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a good source for dependable kWh meters to fit in a standard meter base. I've gotten dozens from the Hialeah Meter CO. Most seem to be fine, but a number of them have become inaccurate (or just quit). In most situations it is possible to detect error by comparison with the inverter meter or the on-line monitoring. In some applications, an inaccurate meter would be hard to detect. Is there a source of bang on accurate kWh meters? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 [ http://athens-electric.com/ ]( http://athens-electric.com/ ) [ ]( https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient ) This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [ www.avast.com ]( https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Aug 22 07:32:23 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 07:32:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dependable kWh meters In-Reply-To: <1471815183.837219222@email.finestplanet.com> References: <20160821211319.F3AC0101FC@che.dreamhost.com> <1471815183.837219222@email.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hi Drake, I recently purchased a bunch of these for a project: https://www.civicsolar.com/product/itron-c1s-cl200-centron-digital-kilowatt-hour-meter-240vac-2s-form They seem fine so far, although they have not been installed long. It is also the same meter that the utility often uses around here, so I would assume that they would be pretty good. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 5:33 PM, wrote: > i have bought from these folks and never had any problems. > > > > todd > > > > http://www.visionmetering.com/refurbished-electric-meters/ > > > > > > > > On Sunday, August 21, 2016 2:13pm, "Drake" redwoodalliance.org> said: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a good source for dependable kWh meters to fit in a > standard meter base. I've gotten dozens from the Hialeah Meter CO. Most > seem to be fine, but a number of them have become inaccurate (or just > quit). In most situations it is possible to detect error by comparison with > the inverter meter or the on-line monitoring. In some applications, an > inaccurate meter would be hard to detect. > > Is there a source of bang on accurate kWh meters? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328>*http://athens-electric.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 09:10:44 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 09:10:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dependable kWh meters In-Reply-To: <20160821211319.F3AC0101FC@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160821211319.F3AC0101FC@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake, I buy from Hialeah meter in Florida. Have had good luck for 15 years. John Blittersdorf Solar Guru Rob Stubbins Solar (formerly of Central Vermont Solar & Wind) On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a good source for dependable kWh meters to fit in a > standard meter base. I've gotten dozens from the Hialeah Meter CO. Most > seem to be fine, but a number of them have become inaccurate (or just > quit). In most situations it is possible to detect error by comparison with > the inverter meter or the on-line monitoring. In some applications, an > inaccurate meter would be hard to detect. > > Is there a source of bang on accurate kWh meters? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 09:25:33 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 09:25:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum entrance wire. Message-ID: Wrenches, I have a customer who has pulled a cat 5 cable through his power conduit (2" PVC) to a new barn for about 120' and wants to use it for ethernet and telephone. Wants me to use a pair if wires in the cable to trigger a relay to disconnect a direct grid tie inverter (AC Coupling) when batteries are full on his double GVFX3648 backup system He wants it in writing from experts that it is not a good idea. Has anyone done this and had good luck with it or have opinions? John Blittersdorf formerly owner of Central Vermont Solar & Wind now working for the new owner Rob Stubbins Solar (I get a regular paycheck and (usually) regular hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Aug 22 10:31:48 2016 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 10:31:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum entrance wire. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006801d1fc81$ea89dfa0$bf9d9ee0$@dovetailsolar.com> Well, I don’t think anyone on this list is a network specialist, which is what I would consider an expert…. But… Running cat5 (really any data cable) parallel to a power line (especially and AC line) is listed as a bad move in almost every installation guide I have ever seen. Data and power are supposed to cross paths in a perpendicular fashion whenever they get “close” to each other. If the clients wants to pay for a letter from a network specialist, just so they can spend more money putting the right stuff in, I would just have that done. But everything I’ve ever learned about this says that power running in the same conduit as communications is a cardinal sin (they run parallel, and as close as is physically possible while in the same conduit). To borrow a phrase from Joe Lstiburek “That’s what we call a Barry Bonds problem…..stupid on steroids”. The bare minimum is to make sure the cable is shielded, and the bleed wire is terminated at a grounding point at one end only. This is the only way there is a prayer for Ethernet signals to make the 120’ journey with any reliability. The more noise in the line, the slower the connection, as more and more packets will get rejected and have to be re-sent until they make it through without too much distortion, at some point the noise will prevent any data packets from making it from A to B and you need to break out the string and Dixie cups. The standard phone line may function, but it might sound like you’re talking to one of the adults from Charley Brown. As for the inverter signal…. I bet that would work if you use a solid state relay that requires just a few milliamps to trigger, even 28AWG cat 5 wire can handle that I bet. When we use a shielded cat 5 to transmit MODBUS and a small amount of signal power, we usually use two pairs of wire and parallel them just to give more copper for the amps to go through. You just make sure you run the + using the striped wires from both sets, and the - on the solid wire from both sets (or vise versa) so that your power is truly running in twisted pairs still and so it will not create any added noise in the cabling. When a client wants to do something like this with us and we cannot convince them it’s a bad idea, we simply put it in writing that any issues resulting from “XYZ” will not be covered by our warranty, as it was done counter to industry best practices, and against our advise. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum entrance wire. Wrenches, I have a customer who has pulled a cat 5 cable through his power conduit (2" PVC) to a new barn for about 120' and wants to use it for ethernet and telephone. Wants me to use a pair if wires in the cable to trigger a relay to disconnect a direct grid tie inverter (AC Coupling) when batteries are full on his double GVFX3648 backup system He wants it in writing from experts that it is not a good idea. Has anyone done this and had good luck with it or have opinions? John Blittersdorf formerly owner of Central Vermont Solar & Wind now working for the new owner Rob Stubbins Solar (I get a regular paycheck and (usually) regular hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Mon Aug 22 10:41:00 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 10:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum entrance wire. In-Reply-To: <006801d1fc81$ea89dfa0$bf9d9ee0$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <006801d1fc81$ea89dfa0$bf9d9ee0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <126ecd850c8937e6728b5433b7133008.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Very simply, is this not contrary to the NEC? I did not think we could run wires of differing voltages in the same conduit. This is your CYA to the client. Daryl > Well, I don’t think anyone on this list is a network specialist, which > is what I would consider an expert…. But… > > > > Running cat5 (really any data cable) parallel to a power line (especially > and AC line) is listed as a bad move in almost every installation guide I > have ever seen. Data and power are supposed to cross paths in a > perpendicular fashion whenever they get “close” to each other. If the > clients wants to pay for a letter from a network specialist, just so they > can spend more money putting the right stuff in, I would just have that > done. But everything I’ve ever learned about this says that power > running in the same conduit as communications is a cardinal sin (they run > parallel, and as close as is physically possible while in the same > conduit). To borrow a phrase from Joe Lstiburek “That’s what we call a > Barry Bonds problem…..stupid on steroids”. > > > > The bare minimum is to make sure the cable is shielded, and the bleed wire > is terminated at a grounding point at one end only. This is the only way > there is a prayer for Ethernet signals to make the 120’ journey with any > reliability. The more noise in the line, the slower the connection, as > more and more packets will get rejected and have to be re-sent until they > make it through without too much distortion, at some point the noise will > prevent any data packets from making it from A to B and you need to break > out the string and Dixie cups. > > > > The standard phone line may function, but it might sound like you’re > talking to one of the adults from Charley Brown. > > > > As for the inverter signal…. I bet that would work if you use a solid > state relay that requires just a few milliamps to trigger, even 28AWG cat > 5 wire can handle that I bet. When we use a shielded cat 5 to transmit > MODBUS and a small amount of signal power, we usually use two pairs of > wire and parallel them just to give more copper for the amps to go > through. You just make sure you run the + using the striped wires from > both sets, and the - on the solid wire from both sets (or vise versa) so > that your power is truly running in twisted pairs still and so it will not > create any added noise in the cabling. > > > > When a client wants to do something like this with us and we cannot > convince them it’s a bad idea, we simply put it in writing that any > issues resulting from “XYZ” will not be covered by our warranty, as it > was done counter to industry best practices, and against our advise. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of John Blittersdorf > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:26 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum > entrance wire. > > > > Wrenches, > > I have a customer who has pulled a cat 5 cable through his power conduit > (2" PVC) to a new barn for about 120' and wants to use it for ethernet > and telephone. Wants me to use a pair if wires in the cable to trigger > a relay to disconnect a direct grid tie inverter (AC Coupling) when > batteries are full on his double GVFX3648 backup system He wants it in > writing from experts that it is not a good idea. Has anyone done this > and had good luck with it or have opinions? > > > > John Blittersdorf > > > > formerly owner of Central Vermont Solar & Wind > > now working for the new owner Rob Stubbins Solar > > (I get a regular paycheck and (usually) regular hours. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From august at luminalt.com Mon Aug 22 11:05:07 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 08:05:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum entrance wire. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, I’m assuming that you’ve got a mix of household voltages (120 or 240 volts) and low voltage cat-5 cable. You can’t do that, here is the code: *NEC 300.3(C)(1) Conductors of Different Systems. 1000 Volts, Nominal, or Less.* Conductors of ac and dc circuits, rated 1000 volts, nominal, or less, shall be permitted to occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or raceway. All conductors shall have an insulation rating equal to at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any conductor within the enclosure, cable, or raceway. If you have 600 volt rated shielded cat-5 cable you might be okay. Separately, it sounds like the grid-tied setup you explain below of disconnecting batteries from the grid when they are full may not be a good idea either. Normally you would keep batteries topped off and connected to the grid for a grid-tied battery backup system. Can you elaborate on what the customer is trying to accomplish by this control scheme? Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *John Blittersdorf *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2016 6:26 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum entrance wire. Wrenches, I have a customer who has pulled a cat 5 cable through his power conduit (2" PVC) to a new barn for about 120' and wants to use it for ethernet and telephone. Wants me to use a pair if wires in the cable to trigger a relay to disconnect a direct grid tie inverter (AC Coupling) when batteries are full on his double GVFX3648 backup system He wants it in writing from experts that it is not a good idea. Has anyone done this and had good luck with it or have opinions? John Blittersdorf formerly owner of Central Vermont Solar & Wind now working for the new owner Rob Stubbins Solar (I get a regular paycheck and (usually) regular hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 11:20:54 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 09:20:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum entrance wire. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the PV home runs are below 600V, you shouuld be OK using 600V CAT 5 as far as NEC 300.3(C)(1) goes. But it sounds to me like an RFI / noisy signal nightmare on the CAT 5 waiting to happen. This Blackout Relay scheme for preventing battery overcharge when AC coupling is not optimal...it provides only 1-stage battery charging, 5 minutes in bulk then 5 minutes off (UL1741). Much better to use a diversion load controller and diversion load for 3-stage charging, though with a large PV array that can get expensive fast. Or SMA sunny-boy/sunny-boy/sunny-island clusters which can do 3-stage by frequency shifting, but he already has Outback. I guess it boils down to how often there are grid blackouts. If they are rare and short, 1-stage charging shouldn't hurt anything. If he's prepping for the end of the world as we know it, he should go the diversion controller route IMO. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 7:25 AM, John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > I have a customer who has pulled a cat 5 cable through his power conduit > (2" PVC) to a new barn for about 120' and wants to use it for ethernet and > telephone. Wants me to use a pair if wires in the cable to trigger a relay > to disconnect a direct grid tie inverter (AC Coupling) when batteries are > full on his double GVFX3648 backup system He wants it in writing from > experts that it is not a good idea. Has anyone done this and had good luck > with it or have opinions? > > John Blittersdorf > > formerly owner of Central Vermont Solar & Wind > now working for the new owner Rob Stubbins Solar > (I get a regular paycheck and (usually) regular hours. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Aug 23 13:33:42 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2016 13:33:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIT panel warranty Message-ID: <007701d1fd64$7eff42f0$7cfdc8d0$@icloud.com> Hello, I recently upgraded a 12 year old Sanyo HIT 167 watt (14 total) array to a Solaredge system while adding two strings of LG 315's. Every time there is rain or heavy condensation the inverter shuts down with a ground fault error. I was able to isolate the error to the old Sanyo string. The Solaredge diagnostics estimated the fault was in the middle of the string. So we went up on the roof with a garden hose and trickled water on each panel individually, while meggaring the string at the roof combiner. Sure enough, the moisture infiltration was in the middle panel of the string, just as the Solaredge IRT test predicted. Good job Solaredge. These panels are circa 2004, so I'm wondering who the US contact is to ask about warranty issues. Has Panasonic taken over warranty claims on old Sanyo's? I know this model isn't made anymore, but maybe there is some remuneration offered. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 18:02:42 2016 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2016 22:02:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIT panel warranty In-Reply-To: <007701d1fd64$7eff42f0$7cfdc8d0$@icloud.com> References: <007701d1fd64$7eff42f0$7cfdc8d0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <1723573128.1175846.1471989763025.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hidenori Oishi *************************************  Panasonic HIT Customer Service  TEL:1-503-365-1086  FAX:1-503-365-6855  Email:HITcustomerservice at us.panasonic.com Jim Dunphy Group Manager of Operations Panasonic Enterprise Solutions Company   T 201-392-6776 F 201-392-4379 C 201-214-7185   Panasonic Enterprise Solutions Company PESCO, 5th Floor Two Riverfront Plaza Newark, NJ 07102  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Tuesday, August 23, 2016 11:11 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello,I recently upgraded a 12 year old Sanyo HIT 167 watt (14 total) array to a Solaredge system while adding two strings of LG 315’s. Every time there is rain or heavy condensation the inverter shuts down with a ground fault error. I was able to isolate the error to the old Sanyo string. The Solaredge diagnostics estimated the fault was in the middle of the string. So we went up on the roof with a garden hose and trickled water on each panel individually, while meggaring the string at the roof combiner. Sure enough, the moisture infiltration was in the middle panel of the string, just as the Solaredge IRT test predicted. Good job Solaredge.These panels are circa 2004, so I’m wondering who the US contact is to ask about warranty issues. Has Panasonic taken over warranty claims on old Sanyo’s? I know this model isn’t made anymore, but maybe there is some remuneration offered. Thanks.   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 23 21:44:40 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:44:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue Message-ID: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each battery. Has anyone seen this before? What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Aug 24 09:20:50 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:20:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue In-Reply-To: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <12E960B3-A4C8-4E97-9DBE-658A3AD30367@swnl.net> This is not uncommon. Main reason for taking cell voltage AND Spg. If all the Spgs are good then and the voltage reads 2.5/Vpc low then the lead oxide has been depleted on the plate and is sitting in the bottom of that cell. When this happens usually the acid in that cell, if it is a positive plate, will be brown in color. > On Aug 23, 2016, at 9:44 PM, Drake wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each battery. Has anyone seen this before? > > What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > <>Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Aug 24 10:01:17 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 08:01:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue In-Reply-To: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <000f01d1fe0f$fc4cef40$f4e6cdc0$@com> How are you reading the SG? __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 7:45 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue Hello Wrenches, I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each battery. Has anyone seen this before? What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _____ Image removed by sender. Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Aug 24 10:36:24 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 10:36:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue In-Reply-To: <000f01d1fe0f$fc4cef40$f4e6cdc0$@com> References: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> <000f01d1fe0f$fc4cef40$f4e6cdc0$@com> Message-ID: <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> The batteries were tested with a glass bulb, turkey baster type hydrometer. The SG read higher than the scale on all the batteries. The electrolyte was clear. The batteries were not too old, maybe three years, with some newer ones, as others in the bank had failed. The corrosion was notable. I did not install the batteries, so don't know if the battery jumpers were cleaned at installation. Could terminal corrosion have aggravated the problem in anyway? At 10:01 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/related; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01D1FDDD.B1B27F40" >Content-Language: en-us > >How are you reading the SG? > >__________________________________________________________ >Dana Orzel >Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com >O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 >"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > >From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 7:45 PM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue > >Hello Wrenches, > >I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly >corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each >battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It >seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each >battery. Has anyone seen this before? > >What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? > >Thanks, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > >Image removed by sender. Avast logo > > >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >www.avast.com > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 19c8c74b.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 24 10:56:56 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 08:56:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue In-Reply-To: <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> <000f01d1fe0f$fc4cef40$f4e6cdc0$@com> <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Trojan L 16s have a known issue with premature cell failures. The T105s seem to still be fine, but I won't sell the L16 anymore. SG readings don't even matter when you have an obvious cell failure. Its like doing blood work on a corpse. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/24/2016 8:36 AM, Drake wrote: > The batteries were tested with a glass bulb, turkey baster type > hydrometer. The SG read higher than the scale on all the batteries. > The electrolyte was clear. The batteries were not too old, maybe three > years, with some newer ones, as others in the bank had failed. The > corrosion was notable. I did not install the batteries, so don't know > if the battery jumpers were cleaned at installation. Could terminal > corrosion have aggravated the problem in anyway? > > At 10:01 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: >> Content-Type: multipart/related; >> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01D1FDDD.B1B27F40" >> Content-Language: en-us >> >> How are you reading the SG? >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> *Dana Orzel* >> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >> dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com >> >> *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 >> *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> _* >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Drake >> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 23, 2016 7:45 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery issue >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly >> corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each >> battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It >> seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each >> battery. Has anyone seen this before? >> >> What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> /Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> /http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> Image removed by sender. Avast logo >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Aug 24 11:16:27 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:16:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue In-Reply-To: <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> <000f01d1fe0f$fc4cef40$f4e6cdc0$@com> <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <3620D68A-D12A-4D84-93CA-B561872EB511@swnl.net> This is a premature failure, possibly a manu defect and may be addressed under a prorated wttee. That being said corrosion in a L16 type of battery can be caused by customer over filling the battery causing excessive electrolyte to stay on the top of the battery or bad post seal. in older batteries excessive internal cell pressure, caused by heavy charging cycles causing the vent in the cap to become plugged w/ lead sulfate, forcing gas out around the post seal. I would say that this is the leading cause of corrosion. Check w/ Trojan and see if they are interested in a warrantee. > On Aug 24, 2016, at 10:36 AM, Drake wrote: > > The batteries were tested with a glass bulb, turkey baster type hydrometer. The SG read higher than the scale on all the batteries. The electrolyte was clear. The batteries were not too old, maybe three years, with some newer ones, as others in the bank had failed. The corrosion was notable. I did not install the batteries, so don't know if the battery jumpers were cleaned at installation. Could terminal corrosion have aggravated the problem in anyway? > > At 10:01 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: >> Content-Type: multipart/related; >> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01D1FDDD.B1B27F40" >> Content-Language: en-us >> >> How are you reading the SG? >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> Dana Orzel >> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >> dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com >> O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Drake >> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 7:45 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each battery. Has anyone seen this before? >> >> What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> <19c8c74b.jpg> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 10:46:07 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 07:46:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue In-Reply-To: <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> <000f01d1fe0f$fc4cef40$f4e6cdc0$@com> <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi drake, The early failure of other batteries brings up questions Charge set points? Frequent overcharge, possible but damn unusual Frequent undercharge? Hi heat location? Offgrid? Ongrid? Battery type? Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 24, 2016, at 7:36 AM, Drake wrote: > > The batteries were tested with a glass bulb, turkey baster type hydrometer. The SG read higher than the scale on all the batteries. The electrolyte was clear. The batteries were not too old, maybe three years, with some newer ones, as others in the bank had failed. The corrosion was notable. I did not install the batteries, so don't know if the battery jumpers were cleaned at installation. Could terminal corrosion have aggravated the problem in anyway? > > At 10:01 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: >> Content-Type: multipart/related; >> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01D1FDDD.B1B27F40" >> Content-Language: en-us >> >> How are you reading the SG? >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> Dana Orzel >> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >> dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com >> O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 7:45 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each battery. Has anyone seen this before? >> >> What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> <19c8c74b.jpg> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 11:21:43 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 08:21:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue In-Reply-To: References: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> <000f01d1fe0f$fc4cef40$f4e6cdc0$@com> <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Ha that's a good one. But still good to know if they were murdered or had defects. While I also have had early failures on every brand, that's earlier than most I've seen Usually it's outside of warranty, of course. Jay > On Aug 24, 2016, at 7:56 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Trojan L 16s have a known issue with premature cell failures. The T105s seem to still be fine, but I won't sell the L16 anymore. > SG readings don't even matter when you have an obvious cell failure. Its like doing blood work on a corpse. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 8/24/2016 8:36 AM, Drake wrote: >> The batteries were tested with a glass bulb, turkey baster type hydrometer. The SG read higher than the scale on all the batteries. The electrolyte was clear. The batteries were not too old, maybe three years, with some newer ones, as others in the bank had failed. The corrosion was notable. I did not install the batteries, so don't know if the battery jumpers were cleaned at installation. Could terminal corrosion have aggravated the problem in anyway? >> >> At 10:01 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: >>> Content-Type: multipart/related; >>> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01D1FDDD.B1B27F40" >>> Content-Language: en-us >>> >>> How are you reading the SG? >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> Dana Orzel >>> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >>> dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com >>> O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 7:45 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each battery. Has anyone seen this before? >>> >>> What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> Athens Electric LLC >>> OH License 44810 >>> CO License 3773 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> 740-448-7328 >>> http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Aug 24 14:28:55 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 14:28:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue In-Reply-To: References: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> <000f01d1fe0f$fc4cef40$f4e6cdc0$@com> <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20160824182905.C671D105EC@che.dreamhost.com> The charge set points were a little low. Probably not overcharged or under (much). There may possibly have been a low battery incident or two. It is my suspicion, but is not backed by any testimony to confirm. The location is inside where it doesn't get extremes of temperature. At 10:46 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: >Hi drake, > >The early failure of other batteries brings up questions > >Charge set points? >Frequent overcharge, possible but damn unusual >Frequent undercharge? >Hi heat location? > >Offgrid? >Ongrid? > >Battery type? > >Jay > >Peltz power. > > >On Aug 24, 2016, at 7:36 AM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: > >>The batteries were tested with a glass bulb, turkey baster type >>hydrometer. The SG read higher than the scale on all the batteries. >>The electrolyte was clear. The batteries were not too old, maybe >>three years, with some newer ones, as others in the bank had >>failed. The corrosion was notable. I did not install the batteries, >>so don't know if the battery jumpers were cleaned at installation. >>Could terminal corrosion have aggravated the problem in anyway? >> >>At 10:01 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: >>>Content-Type: multipart/related; >>> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01D1FDDD.B1B27F40" >>>Content-Language: en-us >>> >>>How are you reading the SG? >>> >>>__________________________________________________________ >>>Dana Orzel >>>Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >>>dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com >>>O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 >>>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> >>>From: RE-wrenches [ >>>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >>>Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 7:45 PM >>>To: RE-wrenches >>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue >>> >>>Hello Wrenches, >>> >>>I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly >>>corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each >>>battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It >>>seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each >>>battery. Has anyone seen this before? >>> >>>What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>Drake >>> >>>Drake Chamberlin >>>Athens Electric LLC >>>OH License 44810 >>>CO License 3773 >>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>740-448-7328 >>>http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>><19c8c74b.jpg> >>> >>> >>>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >>---------- >> >>Avast logo >> >> >> >>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>www.avast.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Aug 24 15:28:08 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 12:28:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted Roof Racking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nik, We did a 30 kW system with Sollega racking and Sollega wants us to try their racking out for residential systems. However, engineering and material costs never seem to pencil out for small ballast systems. We always need seismic anchors points in the SF Bay Area so there isn’t typically a whole lot of benefit to ballast that I can think of. Is anyone on this list successfully installing small ballast systems? Best, August August Goers Luminalt Energy Corporation m: 415.559.1525 o:415.641.4000 august at luminalt.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Nik Ponzio, Building Energy *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 11:59 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Ballasted Roof Racking? Wrenchers, Ironridge just pulled plug on their BRM. What are people specifying for small (<15kW) ballasted roof mount racking for PV? Thanks in advance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Aug 25 10:04:14 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 08:04:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system Message-ID: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> Wrenches, Here's one I haven't seen before. 1997 grid-tie battery backup system that was one of my first, although actual installation was by another before I was licensed. 16 BP 275, 36-cell 12V modules, the standard of that time. Early Outback MX60 replaced C40 around 2005; array rewired to four 48V strings of four modules at that time, serving a 24V battery bank. Tested with an end-of-life 9-year-old AGM battery bank in the system, but in Sell mode with a 26.4V Sell voltage setpoint. At 11 am, 68ºF, 900W/m^2 on the Daystar, with the array under charge, I measured 3.5A, 3.4A, 2.4A, and 3.6A. Short-circuiting each string, I measured 4.0A, 3.7A, 3.8A, and 3.7A. Original rating was 4.45A, so except for the third string, current is what I'd reasonably expect from 20-year-old module degradation. However, watching the periodic MPPT sweep from the MX60 at the array, the maximum power point voltage for the entire 48V array settled at 14.6A at 37.2V, or about 540 watts from a 1,200W (originally rated) array. I have commonly seen the current reduce substantially with age-related degradation, while the MPP voltage remains fairly close to original. I have never seen the voltage drop this far - an average of 9.3V MPP per each 12V module. All of the cells are seriously browned. I have other systems out there with the same modules of similar age that don't exhibit this weird behavior. Can anyone help me understand why the MPP voltage would drop so far below what is typical? There is a slight possibility of corroded buried input conductors, because of a serious but corrected issue of galvanic corrosion from a ground fault (a Romex connector pinching a conductor and allowing seepage to ground). This was corrected years ago, but the input conductors were direct burial for ~100' and there was never a bonding conductor between the array and the house, so there is a potential for corrosion damage. However, the voltage measured at both ends while charging was identical, so I think that would indicate that high conductor resistance isn't the issue. As usual, thank you for the collective and individual wisdom shared here. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sbell at morningstarcorp.com Thu Aug 25 10:24:38 2016 From: sbell at morningstarcorp.com (Steve Bell) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 08:24:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system In-Reply-To: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> References: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hello Allan, Did you check the Voc of each string? Is it possible that there could one or more shorted bypass diodes in the modules? Just a thought. Steve Bell Morningstar tech support On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Here's one I haven't seen before. 1997 grid-tie battery backup system that > was one of my first, although actual installation was by another before I > was licensed. 16 BP 275, 36-cell 12V modules, the standard of that time. > Early Outback MX60 replaced C40 around 2005; array rewired to four 48V > strings of four modules at that time, serving a 24V battery bank. Tested > with an end-of-life 9-year-old AGM battery bank in the system, but in Sell > mode with a 26.4V Sell voltage setpoint. > > At 11 am, 68ºF, 900W/m2 on the Daystar, with the array under charge, I > measured 3.5A, 3.4A, 2.4A, and 3.6A. Short-circuiting each string, I > measured 4.0A, 3.7A, 3.8A, and 3.7A. Original rating was 4.45A, so except > for the third string, current is what I'd reasonably expect from > 20-year-old module degradation. However, watching the periodic MPPT sweep > from the MX60 at the array, the maximum power point voltage for the entire > 48V array settled at 14.6A at 37.2V, or about 540 watts from a 1,200W > (originally rated) array. > > I have commonly seen the current reduce substantially with age-related > degradation, while the MPP voltage remains fairly close to original. I have > never seen the voltage drop this far - an average of 9.3V MPP per each 12V > module. All of the cells are seriously browned. I have other systems out > there with the same modules of similar age that don't exhibit this weird > behavior. Can anyone help me understand why the MPP voltage would drop so > far below what is typical? > > There is a slight possibility of corroded buried input conductors, because > of a serious but corrected issue of galvanic corrosion from a ground fault > (a Romex connector pinching a conductor and allowing seepage to ground). > This was corrected years ago, but the input conductors were direct burial > for ~100' and there was never a bonding conductor between the array and the > house, so there is a potential for corrosion damage. However, the voltage > measured at both ends while charging was identical, so I think that would > indicate that high conductor resistance isn't the issue. > > As usual, thank you for the collective and individual wisdom shared here. > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Aug 25 10:32:40 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 10:32:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue In-Reply-To: References: <20160824014448.350A110127@che.dreamhost.com> <000f01d1fe0f$fc4cef40$f4e6cdc0$@com> <20160824143632.A6C2C105C6@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20160825143327.EEBF3101FB@che.dreamhost.com> I only supply L-16s at my cost to clients with existing banks than have failures. It has been hazy of course as to what is due to poor maintenance and what is due to defective batteries. There was a Trojan Rep on the list. If you are still here, please chime in. At 10:56 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: >Trojan L 16s have a known issue with premature cell failures. The >T105s seem to still be fine, but I won't sell the L16 anymore. >SG readings don't even matter when you have an obvious cell >failure. Its like doing blood work on a corpse. > >R.Ray Walters >CTO, Solarray, Inc >Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >Licensed Master Electrician >Solar Design Engineer >303 505-8760On 8/24/2016 8:36 AM, Drake wrote: >>The batteries were tested with a glass bulb, turkey baster type >>hydrometer. The SG read higher than the scale on all the batteries. >>The electrolyte was clear. The batteries were not too old, maybe >>three years, with some newer ones, as others in the bank had >>failed. The corrosion was notable. I did not install the batteries, >>so don't know if the battery jumpers were cleaned at installation. >>Could terminal corrosion have aggravated the problem in anyway? >> >>At 10:01 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: >>>Content-Type: multipart/related; >>> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01D1FDDD.B1B27F40" >>>Content-Language: en-us >>> >>>How are you reading the SG? >>> >>>__________________________________________________________ >>>Dana Orzel >>>Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >>>dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com >>>O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 >>>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> >>>From: RE-wrenches [ >>>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >>>Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 7:45 PM >>>To: RE-wrenches >>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery issue >>> >>>Hello Wrenches, >>> >>>I was analyzing a string of 8 Trojan L-16 batteries with badly >>>corroded terminals. The specific gravity read perfect on each >>>battery. Two of the batteries read low voltage; about 4.2 volts.It >>>seems like one cell's worth of voltage wasn't showing up on each >>>battery. Has anyone seen this before? >>> >>>What would cause this? How can the specific gravity be right? >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>Drake >>> >>>Drake Chamberlin >>>Athens Electric LLC >>>OH License 44810 >>>CO License 3773 >>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>740-448-7328 >>>http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Image removed by sender. Avast logo >>> >>> >>> >>>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >>---------- >> >>Avast logo >> >> >> >>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1eebb9af.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Aug 25 10:39:17 2016 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 08:39:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system In-Reply-To: References: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: If it is a module issue it could be bad solder joints, shorted diodes, or a combination of both. I just curve traced 12 12-year old KC120s - all except 2 tested fine for Voc with a DMM (2 were totally dead). However with the curve tracer they all exhibited more of an IV "angle" than a curve, going straightish from expected Isc to a Voc that represented only 1/2 a modules worth of voltage. When we added it all up it made sense based on the MPP that we initially observed the inverter to be operating at. They'll be coming off the roof soon and we'll be able to do better testing (and check the accessible diodes). Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Steve Bell wrote: > Hello Allan, > > Did you check the Voc of each string? Is it possible that there could one > or more shorted bypass diodes in the modules? > > Just a thought. > > Steve Bell > Morningstar tech support > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> Here's one I haven't seen before. 1997 grid-tie battery backup system >> that was one of my first, although actual installation was by another >> before I was licensed. 16 BP 275, 36-cell 12V modules, the standard of that >> time. Early Outback MX60 replaced C40 around 2005; array rewired to four >> 48V strings of four modules at that time, serving a 24V battery bank. >> Tested with an end-of-life 9-year-old AGM battery bank in the system, but >> in Sell mode with a 26.4V Sell voltage setpoint. >> >> At 11 am, 68ºF, 900W/m2 on the Daystar, with the array under charge, I >> measured 3.5A, 3.4A, 2.4A, and 3.6A. Short-circuiting each string, I >> measured 4.0A, 3.7A, 3.8A, and 3.7A. Original rating was 4.45A, so except >> for the third string, current is what I'd reasonably expect from >> 20-year-old module degradation. However, watching the periodic MPPT sweep >> from the MX60 at the array, the maximum power point voltage for the entire >> 48V array settled at 14.6A at 37.2V, or about 540 watts from a 1,200W >> (originally rated) array. >> >> I have commonly seen the current reduce substantially with age-related >> degradation, while the MPP voltage remains fairly close to original. I have >> never seen the voltage drop this far - an average of 9.3V MPP per each 12V >> module. All of the cells are seriously browned. I have other systems out >> there with the same modules of similar age that don't exhibit this weird >> behavior. Can anyone help me understand why the MPP voltage would drop so >> far below what is typical? >> >> There is a slight possibility of corroded buried input conductors, >> because of a serious but corrected issue of galvanic corrosion from a >> ground fault (a Romex connector pinching a conductor and allowing seepage >> to ground). This was corrected years ago, but the input conductors were >> direct burial for ~100' and there was never a bonding conductor between the >> array and the house, so there is a potential for corrosion damage. However, >> the voltage measured at both ends while charging was identical, so I think >> that would indicate that high conductor resistance isn't the issue. >> >> As usual, thank you for the collective and individual wisdom shared here. >> Allan >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 13:21:28 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 07:21:28 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system In-Reply-To: References: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Brian Can you do a solmetric type test, when you performed the amp test the volts were at near "0" so the test does not show an accurate value, you said the modules are brown this is not good but are they checked because if so you are done needs new modules. I would suggest doing some additional testing, is it selling, and at what amount, whats going into or out of the batteries at that time, what inverter is it, trace 24 I would assume, if it is selling is the inverter capable of selling more than it is or is at the limit, I need more numbers to get a better understanding if there is even a problem. You can adjust "Sell" down to perform a test and see if the DC climbs, also you can set the MX amp down too. Jerry On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > If it is a module issue it could be bad solder joints, shorted diodes, or > a combination of both. I just curve traced 12 12-year old KC120s - all > except 2 tested fine for Voc with a DMM (2 were totally dead). However > with the curve tracer they all exhibited more of an IV "angle" than a > curve, going straightish from expected Isc to a Voc that represented only > 1/2 a modules worth of voltage. When we added it all up it made sense > based on the MPP that we initially observed the inverter to be operating > at. They'll be coming off the roof soon and we'll be able to do better > testing (and check the accessible diodes). > > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > 520.204.6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Steve Bell > wrote: > >> Hello Allan, >> >> Did you check the Voc of each string? Is it possible that there could >> one or more shorted bypass diodes in the modules? >> >> Just a thought. >> >> Steve Bell >> Morningstar tech support >> >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Allan Sindelar >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> Here's one I haven't seen before. 1997 grid-tie battery backup system >>> that was one of my first, although actual installation was by another >>> before I was licensed. 16 BP 275, 36-cell 12V modules, the standard of that >>> time. Early Outback MX60 replaced C40 around 2005; array rewired to four >>> 48V strings of four modules at that time, serving a 24V battery bank. >>> Tested with an end-of-life 9-year-old AGM battery bank in the system, but >>> in Sell mode with a 26.4V Sell voltage setpoint. >>> >>> At 11 am, 68ºF, 900W/m2 on the Daystar, with the array under charge, I >>> measured 3.5A, 3.4A, 2.4A, and 3.6A. Short-circuiting each string, I >>> measured 4.0A, 3.7A, 3.8A, and 3.7A. Original rating was 4.45A, so except >>> for the third string, current is what I'd reasonably expect from >>> 20-year-old module degradation. However, watching the periodic MPPT sweep >>> from the MX60 at the array, the maximum power point voltage for the entire >>> 48V array settled at 14.6A at 37.2V, or about 540 watts from a 1,200W >>> (originally rated) array. >>> >>> I have commonly seen the current reduce substantially with age-related >>> degradation, while the MPP voltage remains fairly close to original. I have >>> never seen the voltage drop this far - an average of 9.3V MPP per each 12V >>> module. All of the cells are seriously browned. I have other systems out >>> there with the same modules of similar age that don't exhibit this weird >>> behavior. Can anyone help me understand why the MPP voltage would drop so >>> far below what is typical? >>> >>> There is a slight possibility of corroded buried input conductors, >>> because of a serious but corrected issue of galvanic corrosion from a >>> ground fault (a Romex connector pinching a conductor and allowing seepage >>> to ground). This was corrected years ago, but the input conductors were >>> direct burial for ~100' and there was never a bonding conductor between the >>> array and the house, so there is a potential for corrosion damage. However, >>> the voltage measured at both ends while charging was identical, so I think >>> that would indicate that high conductor resistance isn't the issue. >>> >>> As usual, thank you for the collective and individual wisdom shared here. >>> Allan >>> -- >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 10:19:29 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 07:19:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system In-Reply-To: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> References: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <61C0D8D0-E91C-4FAD-8643-67CEA9E77369@gmail.com> Hi Allan, I would try turning off string #3 and see what happens to the vmp. I'm guessing it'll go up to a more normal voltage. I just had a very similar experience, also BP modules, very brown. 2 sets of 4 billion n series to a 12v system. One set was totally dragging down the VMP, I disconnected it, all normal. I tested voc of all modules after they were replaced,(190 watt 72 cell) customer wanted more watts, and all were normal and the same. I didn't spent the time to do a ISC. Replacement is my thought. Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 25, 2016, at 7:04 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > Here's one I haven't seen before. 1997 grid-tie battery backup system that was one of my first, although actual installation was by another before I was licensed. 16 BP 275, 36-cell 12V modules, the standard of that time. Early Outback MX60 replaced C40 around 2005; array rewired to four 48V strings of four modules at that time, serving a 24V battery bank. Tested with an end-of-life 9-year-old AGM battery bank in the system, but in Sell mode with a 26.4V Sell voltage setpoint. > > At 11 am, 68ºF, 900W/m2 on the Daystar, with the array under charge, I measured 3.5A, 3.4A, 2.4A, and 3.6A. Short-circuiting each string, I measured 4.0A, 3.7A, 3.8A, and 3.7A. Original rating was 4.45A, so except for the third string, current is what I'd reasonably expect from 20-year-old module degradation. However, watching the periodic MPPT sweep from the MX60 at the array, the maximum power point voltage for the entire 48V array settled at 14.6A at 37.2V, or about 540 watts from a 1,200W (originally rated) array. > > I have commonly seen the current reduce substantially with age-related degradation, while the MPP voltage remains fairly close to original. I have never seen the voltage drop this far - an average of 9.3V MPP per each 12V module. All of the cells are seriously browned. I have other systems out there with the same modules of similar age that don't exhibit this weird behavior. Can anyone help me understand why the MPP voltage would drop so far below what is typical? > > There is a slight possibility of corroded buried input conductors, because of a serious but corrected issue of galvanic corrosion from a ground fault (a Romex connector pinching a conductor and allowing seepage to ground). This was corrected years ago, but the input conductors were direct burial for ~100' and there was never a bonding conductor between the array and the house, so there is a potential for corrosion damage. However, the voltage measured at both ends while charging was identical, so I think that would indicate that high conductor resistance isn't the issue. > > As usual, thank you for the collective and individual wisdom shared here. > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Aug 26 02:12:08 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 00:12:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system In-Reply-To: References: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <1f8a293c-b9cb-dc01-e4d7-642e885e7f4a@sindelarsolar.com> Steve, Yes, in the same sequence: 75.5V, 73.8V, 73.9V, 74.0V. All just about what I'd expect. Brian, I have seen that with KC120s over the years - good Voc and Isc but no MPP. That's a known failure that Kyocera (to their credit) continues to warrant 15 years out. But I haven't seen it with the many 75W BPs we installed in that same time period. So it's possible, but unlikely, especially with all four strings behaving in a similar manner. Thank you. I'm off on field work now, will respond to any more replies tomorrow. Allan On 8/25/2016 8:24 AM, Steve Bell wrote: > Hello Allan, > > Did you check the Voc of each string? Is it possible that there could > one or more shorted bypass diodes in the modules? > > Just a thought. > > Steve Bell > Morningstar tech support > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Allan Sindelar > > wrote: > > Wrenches, > Here's one I haven't seen before. 1997 grid-tie battery backup > system that was one of my first, although actual installation was > by another before I was licensed. 16 BP 275, 36-cell 12V modules, > the standard of that time. Early Outback MX60 replaced C40 around > 2005; array rewired to four 48V strings of four modules at that > time, serving a 24V battery bank. Tested with an end-of-life > 9-year-old AGM battery bank in the system, but in Sell mode with a > 26.4V Sell voltage setpoint. > > At 11 am, 68ºF, 900W/m^2 on the Daystar, with the array under > charge, I measured 3.5A, 3.4A, 2.4A, and 3.6A. Short-circuiting > each string, I measured 4.0A, 3.7A, 3.8A, and 3.7A. Original > rating was 4.45A, so except for the third string, current is what > I'd reasonably expect from 20-year-old module degradation. > However, watching the periodic MPPT sweep from the MX60 at the > array, the maximum power point voltage for the entire 48V array > settled at 14.6A at 37.2V, or about 540 watts from a 1,200W > (originally rated) array. > > I have commonly seen the current reduce substantially with > age-related degradation, while the MPP voltage remains fairly > close to original. I have never seen the voltage drop this far - > an average of 9.3V MPP per each 12V module. All of the cells are > seriously browned. I have other systems out there with the same > modules of similar age that don't exhibit this weird behavior. Can > anyone help me understand why the MPP voltage would drop so far > below what is typical? > > There is a slight possibility of corroded buried input conductors, > because of a serious but corrected issue of galvanic corrosion > from a ground fault (a Romex connector pinching a conductor and > allowing seepage to ground). This was corrected years ago, but the > input conductors were direct burial for ~100' and there was never > a bonding conductor between the array and the house, so there is a > potential for corrosion damage. However, the voltage measured at > both ends while charging was identical, so I think that would > indicate that high conductor resistance isn't the issue. > > As usual, thank you for the collective and individual wisdom > shared here. > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Aug 26 07:18:21 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 07:18:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Schneider Electric possible quality issue affecting the Conext SW 4048 References: Message-ID: FYI dated 8/25/16 CSW4048 - AC output over voltage, unit is faulting with a F02 during load > Begin forwarded message: > >> >> Sorry for the delayed reply, I have been extremely busy today, I also tried calling you directly, I left a VM with the case notes and my contact information. >> >> I was able to work with our engineering team about this issue and this is there reply. >> >> Schneider Electric Solar has identified a possible quality issue affecting the Conext SW 4048.As a result of this quality issue, the Subject Inverter while operating may experience an issue in the power board that renders the unit permanently inoperable. In rare instances this quality issue could result in smoke and combustive material exiting through the ventilation openings of the Subject Inverter enclosure. This quality issue does not constitute a direct safety concern, but may cause property damage to the area immediately adjacent to the unit. >> >> Schneider Electric believes that this quality issue is isolated to those Subject Inverters that are connected to either a grid or generator input. Since Schneider Electric has neither experienced nor >> become aware of any such quality issue with the Subject Inverter operating in an off‐grid without generator applications. As a precaution and as a service to our valued customer base, Schneider Electric recommends the below‐described intervention along with the support from its re-sellers and/or distributors for purposes of addressing this quality issue as follows: >> >> Immediate Action: >> Schneider Electric anticipates releasing an updated firmware on or about 30th August 2016 for purposes of alleviating this quality issue so that the Subject Inverters affected by this quality issue may be upgraded with new firmware. >> >> >> >> Thank you >> >> >> Case Reference #:30831138 >> >> Question: >> CSW4048 - AC output overvoltage >> >> Customer called to report an issue with this unit - unit is faulting with a F02 during load >> >> >> Date Created: 8/23/2016 >> >> >> For all correspondence regarding this issue, please make sure to leave the ID number [] in the subject line or body of the email. >> _____________________________________________________________________________________________ >> Schneider Electric | Technical Support | Solar Solution >> Phone: (650) 351-8237 | Toll Free Phone: (866) 519-1470 | Fax: (604) 422-2756 >> Email: RE.TechSupport at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar >> >> How am I doing? Please email my manager with any feedback at Email: Jim.Houlik at schneider-electric.com >> >> >> *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of any recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. >> ref:_00DA0abSm._50012bHR4t:ref > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 10:56:35 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 07:56:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQ. power curves Message-ID: <50BCD5B6-1A13-4E47-9D59-128F45C9419D@gmail.com> > Hi all, I can't find Grundfos SQ power curves, any ideas of where or anybody have them Thanks Jay From brian at solarenergy.org Fri Aug 26 11:04:48 2016 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 09:04:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQ. power curves In-Reply-To: <50BCD5B6-1A13-4E47-9D59-128F45C9419D@gmail.com> References: <50BCD5B6-1A13-4E47-9D59-128F45C9419D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay, is this what you're looking for? Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > > I can't find Grundfos SQ power curves, any ideas of where or anybody have > them > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Grundfos SQFlex Pump Curves.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 225081 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Aug 26 11:29:56 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 09:29:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQ. power curves In-Reply-To: <50BCD5B6-1A13-4E47-9D59-128F45C9419D@gmail.com> References: <50BCD5B6-1A13-4E47-9D59-128F45C9419D@gmail.com> Message-ID: *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 8/26/2016 8:56 AM, Jay wrote: >> Hi all, > I can't find Grundfos SQ power curves, any ideas of where or anybody have them > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Grundfos SQF curves all models.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 154341 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Fri Aug 26 12:14:19 2016 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 12:14:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system In-Reply-To: <1f8a293c-b9cb-dc01-e4d7-642e885e7f4a@sindelarsolar.com> References: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> <1f8a293c-b9cb-dc01-e4d7-642e885e7f4a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <012c01d1ffb4$e7127e00$b5377a00$@net> Your measurements of the Isc for the four stings seems to be odd in string 3 with only 2.4A. However, when you measure the circuit under load, you are getting 14.6A from all 4 strings, which averages 3.65A. I’d say check that string again, perhaps the current clamp wasn’t zeroed or something. First I would try reading the MPPT voltage and current for each string individually connected to the load. If one of the strings had a bad diode, I’m not sure it would show up in a Voc test. Perhaps a bad bypass diode could give the MPPT algorithm a difficult time finding the MPPT of the array, and it gets stuck on curve of the one string that has a bad diode. Also, it could be more of an issue with the MPPT controller thinking the array is a 24V Array, or some other controller failure. I would look there. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Phone: 413 883-3144 Spirit Solar www.SpiritSolar.net From: Allan Sindelar [mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com] Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 2:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system Steve, Yes, in the same sequence: 75.5V, 73.8V, 73.9V, 74.0V. All just about what I'd expect. Brian, I have seen that with KC120s over the years - good Voc and Isc but no MPP. That's a known failure that Kyocera (to their credit) continues to warrant 15 years out. But I haven't seen it with the many 75W BPs we installed in that same time period. So it's possible, but unlikely, especially with all four strings behaving in a similar manner. Thank you. I'm off on field work now, will respond to any more replies tomorrow. Allan On 8/25/2016 8:24 AM, Steve Bell wrote: Hello Allan, Did you check the Voc of each string? Is it possible that there could one or more shorted bypass diodes in the modules? Just a thought. Steve Bell Morningstar tech support On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, Here's one I haven't seen before. 1997 grid-tie battery backup system that was one of my first, although actual installation was by another before I was licensed. 16 BP 275, 36-cell 12V modules, the standard of that time. Early Outback MX60 replaced C40 around 2005; array rewired to four 48V strings of four modules at that time, serving a 24V battery bank. Tested with an end-of-life 9-year-old AGM battery bank in the system, but in Sell mode with a 26.4V Sell voltage setpoint. At 11 am, 68ºF, 900W/m2 on the Daystar, with the array under charge, I measured 3.5A, 3.4A, 2.4A, and 3.6A. Short-circuiting each string, I measured 4.0A, 3.7A, 3.8A, and 3.7A. Original rating was 4.45A, so except for the third string, current is what I'd reasonably expect from 20-year-old module degradation. However, watching the periodic MPPT sweep from the MX60 at the array, the maximum power point voltage for the entire 48V array settled at 14.6A at 37.2V, or about 540 watts from a 1,200W (originally rated) array. I have commonly seen the current reduce substantially with age-related degradation, while the MPP voltage remains fairly close to original. I have never seen the voltage drop this far - an average of 9.3V MPP per each 12V module. All of the cells are seriously browned. I have other systems out there with the same modules of similar age that don't exhibit this weird behavior. Can anyone help me understand why the MPP voltage would drop so far below what is typical? There is a slight possibility of corroded buried input conductors, because of a serious but corrected issue of galvanic corrosion from a ground fault (a Romex connector pinching a conductor and allowing seepage to ground). This was corrected years ago, but the input conductors were direct burial for ~100' and there was never a bonding conductor between the array and the house, so there is a potential for corrosion damage. However, the voltage measured at both ends while charging was identical, so I think that would indicate that high conductor resistance isn't the issue. As usual, thank you for the collective and individual wisdom shared here. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 11:45:24 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 08:45:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQ. power curves In-Reply-To: References: <50BCD5B6-1A13-4E47-9D59-128F45C9419D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <32398CF6-3818-4956-BD9A-EE266AF2C901@gmail.com> Hi all I'm not looking for the SQFLEX but the SQ. Thanks Jay. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 26, 2016, at 8:29 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > >> On 8/26/2016 8:56 AM, Jay wrote: >>> Hi all, >> I can't find Grundfos SQ power curves, any ideas of where or anybody have them >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Fri Aug 26 13:21:50 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 10:21:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQ. power curves In-Reply-To: <32398CF6-3818-4956-BD9A-EE266AF2C901@gmail.com> References: <50BCD5B6-1A13-4E47-9D59-128F45C9419D@gmail.com> <32398CF6-3818-4956-BD9A-EE266AF2C901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b7a1882689b1f8cd6780c5a11bb4ba7@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jay, I haven’t seen any “power” curves for the SQ models, only “performance” curves, but page 28 of the Data Booklet has the amperage ratings. Brian AEE solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay *Sent:* Friday, August 26, 2016 8:45 AM *To:* Allan Sindelar *Cc:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQ. power curves Hi all I'm not looking for the SQFLEX but the SQ. Thanks Jay. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 26, 2016, at 8:29 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: *Allan Sindelar* *allan at sindelarsolar.com* NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 8/26/2016 8:56 AM, Jay wrote: Hi all, I can't find Grundfos SQ power curves, any ideas of where or anybody have them Thanks Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Grundfos_SQ-SQE_performance curves_2.15.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 310414 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Grundfos_SQ-SQE-SQE-NE-cu331sp_Data Booklet_2.15.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 6100865 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Aug 26 14:47:17 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 12:47:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system In-Reply-To: <012c01d1ffb4$e7127e00$b5377a00$@net> References: <6fdf82da-34fe-953a-78a8-9879a08697cf@sindelarsolar.com> <1f8a293c-b9cb-dc01-e4d7-642e885e7f4a@sindelarsolar.com> <012c01d1ffb4$e7127e00$b5377a00$@net> Message-ID: <76d141e6-6a01-7a9e-43ea-5b480b2b570b@sindelarsolar.com> Mike, Jay's suggestion to turn off string three, the low one, is good. Plus I can guide the homeowner by phone, thus avoiding the cost of another site visit, so that adds appeal. I just spoke with him. While he lacks the DMM and DC amp clamp, he is going to record V and I in and out for each string, using the MX60 display as his data source. I'll post any noteworthy results here. We're in monsoon season (afternoon cloud buildup and thunderstorms) so it may not be for a few days. Re Jerry's comments: I think that you mean an I/V curve tracer test, rather than Solmetric, right? That's not a tool I have or will get for my current work, but it's a good idea, thanks. The client and I are pretty much in agreement that we're dealing with serious browning - indeed, more than I have ever seen with BP 75W modules of this vintage (my own home's 18 BP590 modules of similar age show very little browning and about 15% degradation, rather than 50%) and aren't worth the cost of a whole bunch of testing. Mostly, we're looking for any specific and correctable cause, as we have one spare matching module in storage, and I also simply posted to seek answers as to why the Vmp was so low. Jerry, it was selling, so the voltage would be held around the sell level of 26.4V. The inverter is set to the default sell AC amps, 35A as I recall and the MX60 is defaulted to 60A output, so they aren't causing any restrictions. The batteries are known to be used up - indeed, we want to better understand the array issue in order to help determine whether to replace the SunXtender AGMs for backup power or just leave the system in a state of benign neglect. The client is considering our suggestion to install a separate grid-tied batteryless system once he has lived in the home for a year or so to determine consumption. This legacy system would pretty much just be backup, as with hardware that old a new array as well as batteries is hard to justify. Thank you to all. More to come later if we learn anything worth sharing. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 8/26/2016 10:14 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > > Your measurements of the Isc for the four stings seems to be odd in > string 3 with only 2.4A. However, when you measure the circuit under > load, you are getting 14.6A from all 4 strings, which averages 3.65A. > I’d say check that string again, perhaps the current clamp wasn’t > zeroed or something. > > First I would try reading the MPPT voltage and current for each string > individually connected to the load. If one of the strings had a bad > diode, I’m not sure it would show up in a Voc test. Perhaps a bad > bypass diode could give the MPPT algorithm a difficult time finding > the MPPT of the array, and it gets stuck on curve of the one string > that has a bad diode. > > Also, it could be more of an issue with the MPPT controller thinking > the array is a 24V Array, or some other controller failure. I would > look there. > > Mike Kocsmiersky > > Principal > > Phone: 413 883-3144 > > *Spirit Solar* > > Can you do a solmetric type test, when you performed the amp test the volts were at near "0" so the test does not show an accurate value, you said the modules are brown this is not good but are they checked because if so you are done needs new modules. I would suggest doing some additional testing, is it selling, and at what amount, whats going into or out of the batteries at that time, what inverter is it, trace 24 I would assume, if it is selling is the inverter capable of selling more than it is or is at the limit, I need more numbers to get a better understanding if there is even a problem. You can adjust "Sell" down to perform a test and see if the DC climbs, also you can set the MX amp down too. Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Aug 26 14:56:04 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 12:56:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question Message-ID: <74e20486-5886-773e-b8a8-e3a410837964@sindelarsolar.com> Wrenches, And now for something completely different... are TUV Rheinland or CE module certifications valid yet in the US? I was called to consult for an off grid client who had purchased 40 250W generic Chinese modules through a friend who got them on Ebay... yeah, right. I got to be the one to tell him that I didn't think his $6,000 purchase ($.60/watt) could be used in a permitted/inspected system, as the modules lacked the proper NRTL certification on the label. I sure hope for his sake that I'm wrong, and I said I would ask here. These are Qunsheng New Energy, model QS-250P. No UL, ETL, CSA certification, just the ones above plus ISO. Where can one find a list of NRTLs? Thank you, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 15:01:11 2016 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 19:01:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> Has anyone used or had success with any kind of a shade cover?.. specifically for the SMA TL inverters?  We have one that is going to get hit by the sun pretty good. Thanks!  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com Fri Aug 26 15:05:53 2016 From: David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com (Isaac Opalinsky) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 19:05:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question In-Reply-To: <74e20486-5886-773e-b8a8-e3a410837964@sindelarsolar.com> References: <74e20486-5886-773e-b8a8-e3a410837964@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan, OSHA maintains the list of NRTL’s: https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html. TUV Rheinland is included, but CE is not a NRTL – it is a manufacturer’s declaration of conformity (literally translated is European Conformity) to European requirements for product conformity. As a manufacturers’ declaration, it is not a third party certification. I’d stay away from products that are CE, and not UL, TUV, CSA, etc. Isaac Opalinsky | Technical Sales 77 Rio Robles, San Jose, CA 95134 | office 443-569-3476 | mobile 443-277-6286 | isaac.opalinsky at sunpower.com [sp_2014_logo_black_orange_CMYK-01] IREC Certified Master Instructor | IREC_10055_AM_PV From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 2:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question Wrenches, And now for something completely different... are TUV Rheinland or CE module certifications valid yet in the US? I was called to consult for an off grid client who had purchased 40 250W generic Chinese modules through a friend who got them on Ebay... yeah, right. I got to be the one to tell him that I didn't think his $6,000 purchase ($.60/watt) could be used in a permitted/inspected system, as the modules lacked the proper NRTL certification on the label. I sure hope for his sake that I'm wrong, and I said I would ask here. These are Qunsheng New Energy, model QS-250P. No UL, ETL, CSA certification, just the ones above plus ISO. Where can one find a list of NRTLs? Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 5843 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 15:11:31 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 09:11:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question In-Reply-To: <74e20486-5886-773e-b8a8-e3a410837964@sindelarsolar.com> References: <74e20486-5886-773e-b8a8-e3a410837964@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches No UL or ETL they sould like for off grid non permitted non warranty systems, years ago they used to be called "red label" Jerry On Aug 26, 2016 8:56 AM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > Wrenches, > And now for something completely different... are TUV Rheinland or CE > module certifications valid yet in the US? > > I was called to consult for an off grid client who had purchased 40 250W > generic Chinese modules through a friend who got them on Ebay... yeah, > right. I got to be the one to tell him that I didn't think his $6,000 > purchase ($.60/watt) could be used in a permitted/inspected system, as the > modules lacked the proper NRTL certification on the label. I sure hope for > his sake that I'm wrong, and I said I would ask here. > > These are Qunsheng New Energy, model QS-250P. No UL, ETL, CSA > certification, just the ones above plus ISO. > > Where can one find a list of NRTLs? > > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Fri Aug 26 15:17:46 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 12:17:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question In-Reply-To: <74e20486-5886-773e-b8a8-e3a410837964@sindelarsolar.com> References: <74e20486-5886-773e-b8a8-e3a410837964@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <288d841a814ec4d13dfa17e725c3add5@mail.gmail.com> Hi Allan, TUV is now an accepted NRTL, but the equipment still has to Listed to applicable UL Standards to mean anything. Testing only to European standards doesn’t cut it here. “CE” is meaningless here also. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar *Sent:* Friday, August 26, 2016 11:56 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question Wrenches, And now for something completely different... are TUV Rheinland or CE module certifications valid yet in the US? I was called to consult for an off grid client who had purchased 40 250W generic Chinese modules through a friend who got them on Ebay... yeah, right. I got to be the one to tell him that I didn't think his $6,000 purchase ($.60/watt) could be used in a permitted/inspected system, as the modules lacked the proper NRTL certification on the label. I sure hope for his sake that I'm wrong, and I said I would ask here. These are Qunsheng New Energy, model QS-250P. No UL, ETL, CSA certification, just the ones above plus ISO. Where can one find a list of NRTLs? Thank you, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* *allan at sindelarsolar.com* NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Aug 26 16:10:50 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 14:10:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question In-Reply-To: References: <74e20486-5886-773e-b8a8-e3a410837964@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Jerry, it is for off grid, but that's not synonymous with non permitted. This is a house being built with standard permits. Unlisted modules are only appropriate for "unpermitted owner-built homes too remote to be discovered by the AHJs". It's a specific category of its own. We have determined that the specific TUV label on these modules isn't valid in the US. Buyer beware! $.60/watt! Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 8/26/2016 1:11 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > No UL or ETL they sould like for off grid non permitted non warranty > systems, years ago they used to be called "red label" > Jerry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Aug 26 17:58:07 2016 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 17:58:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Andrew We had some problems last year with some of the fronius primos leaking in rain / wind conditions. Customer had a local shop tig weld an aluminum shell / box that went around the unit. Had a shelf at the top that stuck out like the brim of a hat. Worked great. We had also looked for something and this custom made box was reasonably priced, looked great and solved the leaking issue. If you want pictures let me know. Peter Giroux American Solar Roswell Ga 678-525-0468 ----- Original Message ----- From: Solar Energy Solutions To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 3:01 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers Has anyone used or had success with any kind of a shade cover?.. specifically for the SMA TL inverters? We have one that is going to get hit by the sun pretty good. Thanks! Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 13:00:38 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 10:00:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silicon batteries Message-ID: <2C2048FF-24DE-4253-8FBA-9611F938969B@gmail.com> Hi all Does anybody know anything about these batteries? I had some ask. The data on the website is really weak. http://www.siliconebatteries.ca/dw.html Thanks in advance Jay Peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 13:26:54 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 11:26:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silicon batteries In-Reply-To: <2C2048FF-24DE-4253-8FBA-9611F938969B@gmail.com> References: <2C2048FF-24DE-4253-8FBA-9611F938969B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay - I did some research and figured they were at least worth a mention in my last Home Power article on vacation cabins that sit unattended all winter. There is no long-term data on cycle life as they are new technology, and I have heard that they are "not for off-grid beginners." The extreme temperature range they can supposedly handle is impressive and that's what got my attention. Contact Backwoods Solar in Sandpoint, ID for more info - they are testing some installations in the field in the US and Canada. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > Does anybody know anything about these batteries? > I had some ask. > The data on the website is really weak. > > http://www.siliconebatteries.ca/dw.html > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > Peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sat Aug 27 16:07:21 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 20:07:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB FW Lightning Protection w/ EPanel Message-ID: Wrenches, Has anyone installed one of the outback Lightning protection devices designed to fit inside the AC conduit box of an FX inverter, with the FX mounted to an E panel? Just looking at some pictures it appears that it may work by re locating the flex conduits coming from the E panel, to the sides of the OB ACA vs. where they originally land. Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From howie at suncatchervt.com Sat Aug 27 17:30:55 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 17:30:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB FW Lightning Protection w/ EPanel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: H Jeremy, It has been years since I used Outback's Arrestors (I switched to Midnite's so I'm not sure if Outback's design has changed since then), but yes that is how it worked on an E-panel. However, I think Midnite has stopped making the Epanel for the FX (FXR), although maybe you can find one in stock at a supplier. Might be worth a call to Midnite... Howie *Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Wrenches, > Has anyone installed one of the outback Lightning protection devices > designed to fit inside the AC conduit box of an FX inverter, with the FX > mounted to an E panel? > Just looking at some pictures it appears that it may work by re locating > the flex conduits coming from the E panel, to the sides of the OB ACA vs. > where they originally land. > Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated! > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sat Aug 27 19:45:56 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 23:45:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB FW Lightning Protection w/ EPanel In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: This is for an existing system. They are wanting to install the outback product on FXs installed with E panels They currently have Midnite arrestors. I know! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Aug 27, 2016, at 3:31 PM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: H Jeremy, It has been years since I used Outback's Arrestors (I switched to Midnite's so I'm not sure if Outback's design has changed since then), but yes that is how it worked on an E-panel. However, I think Midnite has stopped making the Epanel for the FX (FXR), although maybe you can find one in stock at a supplier. Might be worth a call to Midnite... Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Wrenches, Has anyone installed one of the outback Lightning protection devices designed to fit inside the AC conduit box of an FX inverter, with the FX mounted to an E panel? Just looking at some pictures it appears that it may work by re locating the flex conduits coming from the E panel, to the sides of the OB ACA vs. where they originally land. Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Aug 27 18:03:40 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Solar work) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 16:03:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Made three shut down Message-ID: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> I have a client who's Mate three basically seized up, Lost its programming and I did a manual reprogram which it then proceeded to lose that also. I called Outback tech they suggested I reset to factory default and then reprogram which due to the fact I had to leave Colorado for 48 hours I can't do it now the system is complete shut down. The tech at Outback said that lightning strikes nearby could exhibit an EMP effect on the mate or even static that would cause this to happen. Is anyone aware of any filtration/ surge protection device that might work without interfering with the maid threes function and accommodate an ethernet cable? Phil Underkuffler at outback if you want to chime in on this I'd appreciate it and since it is lightning season in Colorado I'm sure other people may appreciate it too From the road in Idaho thanks Dana Orzel 2087217003 Great Solarworks Inc - NABCEP#051112-136 E-dana at solarwork.com c-2087217003 "Responsible Technology for Responsible People since 1988" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Sat Aug 27 18:39:25 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 15:39:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB FW Lightning Protection w/ EPanel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <519332d0-d7c2-6d45-9c3a-f01338b57fd2@midnitesolar.com> MidNite Solar stopped making the skinny OB E-Panels but we still make many models of the wide OB E-Panels. It still works fine with the OutBack surge arrestor in their AC conduit box. boB On 8/27/2016 2:30 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > H Jeremy, > > It has been years since I used Outback's Arrestors (I switched to > Midnite's so I'm not sure if Outback's design has changed since then), > but yes that is how it worked on an E-panel. However, I think Midnite > has stopped making the Epanel for the FX (FXR), although maybe you can > find one in stock at a supplier. Might be worth a call to Midnite... > > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson* > /NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢/ > Sun Catcher, LLC > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > > wrote: > > Wrenches, > Has anyone installed one of the outback Lightning protection > devices designed to fit inside the AC conduit box of an FX > inverter, with the FX mounted to an E panel? > Just looking at some pictures it appears that it may work by re > locating the flex conduits coming from the E panel, to the sides > of the OB ACA vs. where they originally land. > Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated! > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 19:08:55 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 16:08:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB FW Lightning Protection w/ EPanel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72F7C775-B44A-4603-8E53-66F8FD2EB9DC@gmail.com> HI Howie, Midnight still makes the Epanel for FXR They did discontinued the narrow versions, but still make the wider ones. Jay > On Aug 27, 2016, at 2:30 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > H Jeremy, > > It has been years since I used Outback's Arrestors (I switched to Midnite's so I'm not sure if Outback's design has changed since then), but yes that is how it worked on an E-panel. However, I think Midnite has stopped making the Epanel for the FX (FXR), although maybe you can find one in stock at a supplier. Might be worth a call to Midnite... > > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Sun Catcher, LLC > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > Wrenches, > Has anyone installed one of the outback Lightning protection devices designed to fit inside the AC conduit box of an FX inverter, with the FX mounted to an E panel? > Just looking at some pictures it appears that it may work by re locating the flex conduits coming from the E panel, to the sides of the OB ACA vs. where they originally land. > Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated! > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sun Aug 28 08:13:19 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 08:13:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof multi-fastener attachment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I have some possibilities of reasonable size commercial jobs where the buildings have "corrugated" type roofs with purlins run underneath which are worst case 16 gauge steel. On steel roofs I typically use #14 Marutex stainless screws but in this case the job is in the Caribbean and there is a high risk of hurricanes. We use Snap N Rack but their steel roof attachment has only a single screw attachment point. What I am looking for is a metal roof attachment that will mate with Snap N Rack materials and that has multi attchment points at each attachment point. It would go on the flat area of the metal roof between the "corrugations". Does anyone have any suggestions? I can get the Marutex screws with rubber gaskets. Thanks, Daryl From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 08:35:34 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 06:35:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Arc Fault Interrupter solutions for PV? Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches; How are folks here dealing with NEC 690.11 AFCI PV DC requirements on ground-mount, off-grid and multimode systems? My client purchased his equipment for 2 systems prior to 2013, when Colorado started enforcing 690.11 in the NEC 2011 code and we haven't done the installs yet due to construction delays; they just got their CO a month ago. His grid-tie battery backup system has 3 Morningstar MPPT-60 600Voc controllers, and his off-grid system 2 Morningstar MPPT-60 150Voc controllers. I've been out of the loop on this one for a couple years since I've been installing all Midnite Classics that have AFCI built in. I'm not seeing any options for in the combiner box from my regular suppliers of breakers and such (he already has the combiner boxes). 690.12 is also going to be an issue now that Colorado is enforcing it for ground mount arrays. The Midnite combiners he bought in 2013 are not compatible with the Birdhouse. Perhaps installation will be delayed further, and 690.12 will be waived for ground mount arrays in NEC 2017? I can only hope. Any input appreciated. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sun Aug 28 12:14:05 2016 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 16:14:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB FW Lightning Protection w/ EPanel In-Reply-To: <519332d0-d7c2-6d45-9c3a-f01338b57fd2@midnitesolar.com> References: , <519332d0-d7c2-6d45-9c3a-f01338b57fd2@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Do you if the wiring from the E panel will reach with the AC conduit box in place on the FX? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Aug 27, 2016, at 10:02 PM, "bob at midnitesolar.com" > wrote: MidNite Solar stopped making the skinny OB E-Panels but we still make many models of the wide OB E-Panels. It still works fine with the OutBack surge arrestor in their AC conduit box. boB On 8/27/2016 2:30 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: H Jeremy, It has been years since I used Outback's Arrestors (I switched to Midnite's so I'm not sure if Outback's design has changed since then), but yes that is how it worked on an E-panel. However, I think Midnite has stopped making the Epanel for the FX (FXR), although maybe you can find one in stock at a supplier. Might be worth a call to Midnite... Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Wrenches, Has anyone installed one of the outback Lightning protection devices designed to fit inside the AC conduit box of an FX inverter, with the FX mounted to an E panel? Just looking at some pictures it appears that it may work by re locating the flex conduits coming from the E panel, to the sides of the OB ACA vs. where they originally land. Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 13:20:37 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 11:20:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Arc Fault Interrupter solutions for PV? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dan, You can use a Santon Arc fault detection unit. This has arc detection and some low voltage contacts to drive power relays in case of an arc fault. You need to provide a power supply and the power contactors. You can buy all of the stuff on the website: http://www.dcsunvolt.com/ It turns out to be expensive and it may make more sense to upgrade charge controllers. Maybe there is a cheaper way, but I haven't ran across it. Thanks On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 6:35 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches; > > How are folks here dealing with NEC 690.11 AFCI PV DC requirements on > ground-mount, off-grid and multimode systems? My client purchased his > equipment for 2 systems prior to 2013, when Colorado started enforcing > 690.11 in the NEC 2011 code and we haven't done the installs yet due to > construction delays; they just got their CO a month ago. > > His grid-tie battery backup system has 3 Morningstar MPPT-60 600Voc > controllers, and his off-grid system 2 Morningstar MPPT-60 150Voc > controllers. > > I've been out of the loop on this one for a couple years since I've been > installing all Midnite Classics that have AFCI built in. I'm not seeing any > options for in the combiner box from my regular suppliers of breakers and > such (he already has the combiner boxes). > > 690.12 is also going to be an issue now that Colorado is enforcing it for > ground mount arrays. The Midnite combiners he bought in 2013 are not > compatible with the Birdhouse. > > Perhaps installation will be delayed further, and 690.12 will be waived > for ground mount arrays in NEC 2017? I can only hope. > > Any input appreciated. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Sun Aug 28 20:23:23 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 18:23:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers In-Reply-To: References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3913DB92-D058-4B2C-8B11-73EF6B3E043A@skyfireenergy.com> We are working on a service call for an enphase system (installed by others) where the 9 inverters are located, exposed to the elements, on rack on a north facing wall (rooftop equipment enclosure). The modules are installed about 75' away as decorative(?) awnings for a downtown penthouse suite. So far about 3 of the enphase inverters (M215's I believe, would have to double check) have failed and have been replaced and I recently was on the service call where enphase determined that 4 more would need to be replaced as well. Enphase is claiming that the inverters are failing because they are exposed to the elements. We are in the process of designing a cover for them that would provide at least as much protection as a module would. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 26, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Peter Giroux wrote: > > Andrew > > We had some problems last year with some of the fronius primos leaking in rain / wind conditions. Customer had a local shop tig weld an aluminum shell / box that went around the unit. Had a shelf at the top that stuck out like the brim of a hat. Worked great. We had also looked for something and this custom made box was reasonably priced, looked great and solved the leaking issue. If you want pictures let me know. > > Peter Giroux > American Solar > Roswell Ga > 678-525-0468 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Solar Energy Solutions > To: RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 3:01 PM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers > > Has anyone used or had success with any kind of a shade cover?.. specifically for the SMA TL inverters? We have one that is going to get hit by the sun pretty good. > > Thanks! > > > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > President > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > The BRIGHT CHOICE > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > 503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Aug 28 21:35:29 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 18:35:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers In-Reply-To: <3913DB92-D058-4B2C-8B11-73EF6B3E043A@skyfireenergy.com> References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> <3913DB92-D058-4B2C-8B11-73EF6B3E043A@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <757f99db-40ef-f500-716e-d60aadb724a6@psln.com> Benn, Just curious, if they are on a north facing wall at your latitude (Edmonton?) they shouldn't ever see any sun or just the tiniest bit. Considering the normal location of micros it seems some wind and rain should be expected whether under a module or under a north facing eave. Enlighten me. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 8/28/2016 5:23 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > We are working on a service call for an enphase system (installed by > others) where the 9 inverters are located, exposed to the elements, on > rack on a north facing wall (rooftop equipment enclosure). The modules > are installed about 75' away as decorative(?) awnings for a downtown > penthouse suite. > So far about 3 of the enphase inverters (M215's I believe, would have > to double check) have failed and have been replaced and I recently was > on the service call where enphase determined that 4 more would need to > be replaced as well. > Enphase is claiming that the inverters are failing because they are > exposed to the elements. > We are in the process of designing a cover for them that would provide > at least as much protection as a module would. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > On Aug 26, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Peter Giroux > wrote: > >> Andrew >> We had some problems last year with some of the fronius primos >> leaking in rain / wind conditions. Customer had a local shop tig weld >> an aluminum shell / box that went around the unit. Had a shelf at the >> top that stuck out like the brim of a hat. Worked great. We had also >> looked for something and this custom made box was reasonably priced, >> looked great and solved the leaking issue. If you want pictures let >> me know. >> Peter Giroux >> American Solar >> Roswell Ga >> 678-525-0468 >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 21:43:16 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 18:43:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers In-Reply-To: <757f99db-40ef-f500-716e-d60aadb724a6@psln.com> References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> <3913DB92-D058-4B2C-8B11-73EF6B3E043A@skyfireenergy.com> <757f99db-40ef-f500-716e-d60aadb724a6@psln.com> Message-ID: <92F15621-3BEB-447F-9155-501FDF021B93@gmail.com> Hi Bill and Benn, Those micros are rated nema 6, which is submersible rated. I”m curious which element/s they are referring to? jay peltz power > On Aug 28, 2016, at 6:35 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Benn, > > Just curious, if they are on a north facing wall at your latitude (Edmonton?) they shouldn't ever see any sun or just the tiniest bit. Considering the normal location of micros it seems some wind and rain should be expected whether under a module or under a north facing eave. Enlighten me. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 8/28/2016 5:23 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> We are working on a service call for an enphase system (installed by others) where the 9 inverters are located, exposed to the elements, on rack on a north facing wall (rooftop equipment enclosure). The modules are installed about 75' away as decorative(?) awnings for a downtown penthouse suite. >> So far about 3 of the enphase inverters (M215's I believe, would have to double check) have failed and have been replaced and I recently was on the service call where enphase determined that 4 more would need to be replaced as well. >> Enphase is claiming that the inverters are failing because they are exposed to the elements. >> We are in the process of designing a cover for them that would provide at least as much protection as a module would. >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >> On Aug 26, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Peter Giroux > wrote: >> >>> Andrew >>> >>> We had some problems last year with some of the fronius primos leaking in rain / wind conditions. Customer had a local shop tig weld an aluminum shell / box that went around the unit. Had a shelf at the top that stuck out like the brim of a hat. Worked great. We had also looked for something and this custom made box was reasonably priced, looked great and solved the leaking issue. If you want pictures let me know. >>> >>> Peter Giroux >>> American Solar >>> Roswell Ga >>> 678-525-0468 >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon Aug 29 01:40:51 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 22:40:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB FW Lightning Protection w/ EPanel In-Reply-To: References: <519332d0-d7c2-6d45-9c3a-f01338b57fd2@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <8be10d4c-85ea-8fdc-60fb-a0fc2186be01@midnitesolar.com> On 8/28/2016 9:14 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Do you if the wiring from the E panel will reach with the AC conduit > box in place on the FX? > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 Can't remember 100% but the conduit box has one big knockout and we have flex conduit around. Some rewiring may be required but it is only 3 wires so no biggie. If this is a custom E-Panel, and some of them are, then we can certainly make it with longer wires. boB > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Aug 27, 2016, at 10:02 PM, "bob at midnitesolar.com > " > wrote: > >> >> MidNite Solar stopped making the skinny OB E-Panels but we still make >> many models of the wide OB E-Panels. >> >> It still works fine with the OutBack surge arrestor in their AC >> conduit box. >> >> boB >> >> >> >> On 8/27/2016 2:30 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >>> H Jeremy, >>> >>> It has been years since I used Outback's Arrestors (I switched to >>> Midnite's so I'm not sure if Outback's design has changed since >>> then), but yes that is how it worked on an E-panel. However, I >>> think Midnite has stopped making the Epanel for the FX (FXR), >>> although maybe you can find one in stock at a supplier. Might be >>> worth a call to Midnite... >>> >>> Howie >>> >>> *Howie Michaelson* >>> /NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢/ >>> Sun Catcher, LLC >>> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >>> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >>> 802-272-0004 >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> Has anyone installed one of the outback Lightning protection >>> devices designed to fit inside the AC conduit box of an FX >>> inverter, with the FX mounted to an E panel? >>> Just looking at some pictures it appears that it may work by re >>> locating the flex conduits coming from the E panel, to the sides >>> of the OB ACA vs. where they originally land. >>> Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated! >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation And Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Mon Aug 29 00:27:59 2016 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 04:27:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers In-Reply-To: <92F15621-3BEB-447F-9155-501FDF021B93@gmail.com> References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> <3913DB92-D058-4B2C-8B11-73EF6B3E043A@skyfireenergy.com> <757f99db-40ef-f500-716e-d60aadb724a6@psln.com>, <92F15621-3BEB-447F-9155-501FDF021B93@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches. Yes, our product is NEMA 6, so is pretty robust once the DC and AC cables are connected. That said, our M215 Installation and Operation Manual states that the microinverters should not be installed in a location that allows for "long term exposure to direct sunlight." The challenge with north facing locations is that the sun does pass to the north of direct overhead for several hours a day in the summer months. Depending on the amount of exposure during the summer afternoons, this could be problematic. See page 18 of the manual: https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/M215_Installation_Manual_NA.pdf Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy | Field Applications Engineer (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved ™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” - William McDonough ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 6:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers Hi Bill and Benn, Those micros are rated nema 6, which is submersible rated. I”m curious which element/s they are referring to? jay peltz power On Aug 28, 2016, at 6:35 PM, frenergy > wrote: Benn, Just curious, if they are on a north facing wall at your latitude (Edmonton?) they shouldn't ever see any sun or just the tiniest bit. Considering the normal location of micros it seems some wind and rain should be expected whether under a module or under a north facing eave. Enlighten me. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 8/28/2016 5:23 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: We are working on a service call for an enphase system (installed by others) where the 9 inverters are located, exposed to the elements, on rack on a north facing wall (rooftop equipment enclosure). The modules are installed about 75' away as decorative(?) awnings for a downtown penthouse suite. So far about 3 of the enphase inverters (M215's I believe, would have to double check) have failed and have been replaced and I recently was on the service call where enphase determined that 4 more would need to be replaced as well. Enphase is claiming that the inverters are failing because they are exposed to the elements. We are in the process of designing a cover for them that would provide at least as much protection as a module would. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 26, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Peter Giroux > wrote: Andrew We had some problems last year with some of the fronius primos leaking in rain / wind conditions. Customer had a local shop tig weld an aluminum shell / box that went around the unit. Had a shelf at the top that stuck out like the brim of a hat. Worked great. We had also looked for something and this custom made box was reasonably priced, looked great and solved the leaking issue. If you want pictures let me know. Peter Giroux American Solar Roswell Ga 678-525-0468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Aug 29 09:54:45 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 07:54:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers In-Reply-To: <92F15621-3BEB-447F-9155-501FDF021B93@gmail.com> References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> <3913DB92-D058-4B2C-8B11-73EF6B3E043A@skyfireenergy.com> <757f99db-40ef-f500-716e-d60aadb724a6@psln.com> <92F15621-3BEB-447F-9155-501FDF021B93@gmail.com> Message-ID: <30C636BE-8C0C-42D2-8E94-C5A3934C441F@skyfireenergy.com> Bill and Jay, I didn't hear it from Enphase directly myself, otherwise I would have called BS. Around here, if they are on a north facing wall with no obstructions to the east or west then they would get some direct sun early and late in the day, for maybe a month or so in the summer. Hardly an issue, you might think? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 28, 2016, at 7:43 PM, jay wrote: > > Hi Bill and Benn, > > Those micros are rated nema 6, which is submersible rated. > > I”m curious which element/s they are referring to? > > jay > peltz power > > > > > > >> On Aug 28, 2016, at 6:35 PM, frenergy wrote: >> >> Benn, >> >> Just curious, if they are on a north facing wall at your latitude (Edmonton?) they shouldn't ever see any sun or just the tiniest bit. Considering the normal location of micros it seems some wind and rain should be expected whether under a module or under a north facing eave. Enlighten me. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >>> On 8/28/2016 5:23 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >>> We are working on a service call for an enphase system (installed by others) where the 9 inverters are located, exposed to the elements, on rack on a north facing wall (rooftop equipment enclosure). The modules are installed about 75' away as decorative(?) awnings for a downtown penthouse suite. >>> So far about 3 of the enphase inverters (M215's I believe, would have to double check) have failed and have been replaced and I recently was on the service call where enphase determined that 4 more would need to be replaced as well. >>> Enphase is claiming that the inverters are failing because they are exposed to the elements. >>> We are in the process of designing a cover for them that would provide at least as much protection as a module would. >>> >>> Benn Kilburn >>> SkyFire Energy Inc. >>> 780-906-7807 >>> >>>> On Aug 26, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Peter Giroux wrote: >>>> >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> We had some problems last year with some of the fronius primos leaking in rain / wind conditions. Customer had a local shop tig weld an aluminum shell / box that went around the unit. Had a shelf at the top that stuck out like the brim of a hat. Worked great. We had also looked for something and this custom made box was reasonably priced, looked great and solved the leaking issue. If you want pictures let me know. >>>> >>>> Peter Giroux >>>> American Solar >>>> Roswell Ga >>>> 678-525-0468 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Aug 29 10:03:17 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 08:03:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers In-Reply-To: References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> <3913DB92-D058-4B2C-8B11-73EF6B3E043A@skyfireenergy.com> <757f99db-40ef-f500-716e-d60aadb724a6@psln.com> <92F15621-3BEB-447F-9155-501FDF021B93@gmail.com> Message-ID: <149CD9B7-715C-4AB7-80C5-153F4AB2DC1D@skyfireenergy.com> Nick, Yes, there would be some direct sun exposure midday as well. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 28, 2016, at 10:27 PM, Nick Soleil wrote: > > Hi Wrenches. > > > Yes, our product is NEMA 6, so is pretty robust once the DC and AC cables are connected. That said, our M215 Installation and Operation Manual states that the microinverters should not be installed in a location that allows for "long term exposure to direct sunlight." The challenge with north facing locations is that the sun does pass to the north of direct overhead for several hours a day in the summer months. Depending on the amount of exposure during the summer afternoons, this could be problematic. > > > See page 18 of the manual: > > https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/M215_Installation_Manual_NA.pdf > > > > Cordially, > Nick Soleil > Enphase Energy > | Field Applications Engineer > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > > Energy > Evolved > ™ > > > Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” > - William McDonough > > > > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay > Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 6:43 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers > > Hi Bill and Benn, > > Those micros are rated nema 6, which is submersible rated. > > I”m curious which element/s they are referring to? > > jay > peltz power > > > > > > >> On Aug 28, 2016, at 6:35 PM, frenergy wrote: >> >> Benn, >> >> Just curious, if they are on a north facing wall at your latitude (Edmonton?) they shouldn't ever see any sun or just the tiniest bit. Considering the normal location of micros it seems some wind and rain should be expected whether under a module or under a north facing eave. Enlighten me. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >>> On 8/28/2016 5:23 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >>> We are working on a service call for an enphase system (installed by others) where the 9 inverters are located, exposed to the elements, on rack on a north facing wall (rooftop equipment enclosure). The modules are installed about 75' away as decorative(?) awnings for a downtown penthouse suite. >>> So far about 3 of the enphase inverters (M215's I believe, would have to double check) have failed and have been replaced and I recently was on the service call where enphase determined that 4 more would need to be replaced as well. >>> Enphase is claiming that the inverters are failing because they are exposed to the elements. >>> We are in the process of designing a cover for them that would provide at least as much protection as a module would. >>> >>> Benn Kilburn >>> SkyFire Energy Inc. >>> 780-906-7807 >>> >>> On Aug 26, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Peter Giroux wrote: >>> >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> We had some problems last year with some of the fronius primos leaking in rain / wind conditions. Customer had a local shop tig weld an aluminum shell / box that went around the unit. Had a shelf at the top that stuck out like the brim of a hat. Worked great. We had also looked for something and this custom made box was reasonably priced, looked great and solved the leaking issue. If you want pictures let me know. >>>> >>>> Peter Giroux >>>> American Solar >>>> Roswell Ga >>>> 678-525-0468 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 11:48:27 2016 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 11:48:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question Message-ID: Just to expand on this, the NRTL has to test to the specific UL standard. However, if you look at the definition of "listed" in the NEC, it states "equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the AHJ...). I have heard of some jurisdictions in CA that do not accept CSA, Tuv, ETL, etc and will only accept UL as a testing agency. BTW it is possible to do field certification of equipment, although it's probably more cost effective to purchase new modules. Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 19:05:53 +0000 > From: Isaac Opalinsky > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question > Message-ID: > namprd07.prod.outlook.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Allan, > > OSHA maintains the list of NRTL?s: https://www.osha.gov/dts/ > otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html. > > TUV Rheinland is included, but CE is not a NRTL ? it is a manufacturer?s > declaration of conformity (literally translated is European Conformity) to > European requirements for product conformity. As a manufacturers? > declaration, it is not a third party certification. I?d stay away from > products that are CE, and not UL, TUV, CSA, etc. > > Isaac Opalinsky | Technical Sales > 77 Rio Robles, San Jose, CA 95134 | office 443-569-3476 | mobile > 443-277-6286 | isaac.opalinsky at sunpower.com sunpower.com> > [sp_2014_logo_black_orange_CMYK-01] > IREC Certified Master Instructor | IREC_10055_AM_PV > > ******************************************* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Aug 29 11:51:38 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 08:51:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof multi-fastener attachment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Daryl, You might check out S-5 VersaBrackets and RibBrackets: http://www.s-5.com/clamps/index_71.cfm http://www.s-5.com/clamps/ribbracket/index_5336.cfm -August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 5:13 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof multi-fastener attachment Hi all, I have some possibilities of reasonable size commercial jobs where the buildings have "corrugated" type roofs with purlins run underneath which are worst case 16 gauge steel. On steel roofs I typically use #14 Marutex stainless screws but in this case the job is in the Caribbean and there is a high risk of hurricanes. We use Snap N Rack but their steel roof attachment has only a single screw attachment point. What I am looking for is a metal roof attachment that will mate with Snap N Rack materials and that has multi attchment points at each attachment point. It would go on the flat area of the metal roof between the "corrugations". Does anyone have any suggestions? I can get the Marutex screws with rubber gaskets. Thanks, Daryl _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 29 12:35:34 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 09:35:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <029301d20213$5e871170$1b953450$@sbcglobal.net> Steven, Although you are correct that OSHA certifies NRTLs for specific test standards, I have not run into jurisdictions in California that reject products listed to UL standards by ETL, TUV, and CSA. There have been specific cases where the County and City of LA have questioned various products, but to say it was because it was coming from another lab is difficult to prove. The City of LA has rejected UL products, so their approach has more to do with the fact that they have their own lab so they like the revenue that they receive from testing—very different issue. I just don’t want rumors to start that some CA AHJs only accept UL—that is hearsay and not factual. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steven Lawrence Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 8:48 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question Just to expand on this, the NRTL has to test to the specific UL standard. However, if you look at the definition of "listed" in the NEC, it states "equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the AHJ...). I have heard of some jurisdictions in CA that do not accept CSA, Tuv, ETL, etc and will only accept UL as a testing agency. BTW it is possible to do field certification of equipment, although it's probably more cost effective to purchase new modules. Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 19:05:53 +0000 From: Isaac Opalinsky > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Allan, OSHA maintains the list of NRTL?s: https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html. TUV Rheinland is included, but CE is not a NRTL ? it is a manufacturer?s declaration of conformity (literally translated is European Conformity) to European requirements for product conformity. As a manufacturers? declaration, it is not a third party certification. I?d stay away from products that are CE, and not UL, TUV, CSA, etc. Isaac Opalinsky | Technical Sales 77 Rio Robles, San Jose, CA 95134 | office 443-569-3476 | mobile 443-277-6286 | isaac.opalinsky at sunpower.com > [sp_2014_logo_black_orange_CMYK-01] IREC Certified Master Instructor | IREC_10055_AM_PV ******************************************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Aug 29 14:48:35 2016 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 18:48:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Made three shut down In-Reply-To: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hi Dana If you are in a lightning prone area surge protection is a must. OutBack has a surge protection device that mounts directly on the inverter (see the link below). http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Hardware_Accessories/flexware_surge_protector/fw_sp_specsheet_english.pdf Midnite makes surge protection devices can that be added through-out the system. The Mate3 will not be negatively affected by surge protection. Lightning protection is a controversial subject and is certain to invoke strong opinions. Lightning protection strategically placed throughout an electrical system can only help. Unfortunately I don’t think anyone is willing to offer a 100% guarantee of protection. Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Solar work Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 3:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Made three shut down I have a client who's Mate three basically seized up, Lost its programming and I did a manual reprogram which it then proceeded to lose that also. I called Outback tech they suggested I reset to factory default and then reprogram which due to the fact I had to leave Colorado for 48 hours I can't do it now the system is complete shut down. The tech at Outback said that lightning strikes nearby could exhibit an EMP effect on the mate or even static that would cause this to happen. Is anyone aware of any filtration/ surge protection device that might work without interfering with the maid threes function and accommodate an ethernet cable? Phil Underkuffler at outback if you want to chime in on this I'd appreciate it and since it is lightning season in Colorado I'm sure other people may appreciate it too From the road in Idaho thanks Dana Orzel 2087217003 Great Solarworks Inc - NABCEP#051112-136 E-dana at solarwork.com c-2087217003 "Responsible Technology for Responsible People since 1988" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Aug 29 15:42:51 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 12:42:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting ready for 2014 NEC rapid shut down with string inverters In-Reply-To: <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, I’m preparing for 2014 NEC 690.12 Rapid Shutdown to hit in California January 2017. Specifically, I’m trying to determine what to do for new string inverter based installations. I’m assuming that microinverter, AC modules, and systems with power-level electronics (SolarEdge etc) are innately compliant. I spent a while researching SMA’s rapid shutdown system. It appears that we need five 16 or 18 AWG conductors for the control circuit. Any recommendations on what type of wire to use assuming we run it in our EMT run down from the roof to inverter? Tray Cable might work? Best, August August Goers Luminalt Energy Corporation m: 415.559.1525 o:415.641.4000 august at luminalt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Mon Aug 29 16:42:11 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 16:42:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting ready for 2014 NEC rapid shut down with string inverters In-Reply-To: <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2adf27b2f3e80f616e6189eebf49b5d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> August, I am not answering your question but SMA tech support folk have specifically told me that putting our 600V jacketed control wire in the same EMT as the DC strings is leading to false arc fault trips. Matt On Mon, August 29, 2016 3:42 pm, August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > > > > I’m preparing for 2014 NEC 690.12 Rapid Shutdown to hit in California > January 2017. Specifically, I’m trying to determine what to do for new > string inverter based installations. I’m assuming that microinverter, AC > modules, and systems with power-level electronics (SolarEdge etc) are > innately compliant. > > > > I spent a while researching SMA’s rapid shutdown system. It appears that > we need five 16 or 18 AWG conductors for the control circuit. Any > recommendations on what type of wire to use assuming we run it in our EMT > run down from the roof to inverter? Tray Cable might work? > > > > Best, > > > > > August > > > > > > > August Goers > > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > m: 415.559.1525 > > > o:415.641.4000 > > > august at luminalt.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 20:25:40 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:25:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQ pumps Message-ID: HI All, I wanted to follow up that Grundfos does indeed have pump efficiency curves for the SQ pump. I was able to get copies from my main pump supplier, Preferred Pump. Grundfos seems to hold them pretty close and they are not generally available. I have a few of them, so let me know and I’ll email them to you. And it makes a big difference. One pump was up around 80% efficient, the others at 40s% for same height. jay peltz power From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Aug 29 23:53:54 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 21:53:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [Following up on] Low array voltage stumper on legacy system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5b9966d6-f5a2-7aa0-0dbc-7459a460cde3@sindelarsolar.com> Wrenches, What a delight it is when a client is so fully able to understand and follow directions! Albert, the homeowner of the 1997 system with 16 BP 75W modules on a tracker, sent the results below. In short, he isolated each string and measured input and output voltage and current as shown by the display on the MX60. The results suggest that while two of the four strings are worse than the other two, all are severely degraded, and none put out close to original MPP voltage or current. Given that the tracker has recently stopped operating (due to an obviously failed internal electronic component, most likely from lightning damage) and replacement controllers are no longer available, SunXtenders that have reached the end of their life after nine years of operation, and these modules, I'm not recommending rebuilding this system with new batteries and modules. I have suggested a batteryless grid-tied system, and either keeping this as a modest backup resource for occasional outages (with new batteries, of course) or using a home standby generator to meet backup needs. And both the client and I would be interested in any observations and further conclusions that can be taken from the numbers below and in the attached spreadsheet. It appears that string three pulls down the overall output beyond what it contributes. We have one spare module, if the client chooses to keep the existing array in operation. The other three strings put out between 50% and 61% of original nameplate current rating. All have decidedly low Vmp, which at STC would be around 68V. Thank you, Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** -------- Forwarded Message -------- Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 09:11:31 -0600 Allan, I completed the test yesterday during late morning sun. Results are shown in the attached spreadsheet. It appears that both strings 3 and 4 gave lower Vmp, although 3 was worse. Albert PV Array Output Observation date: 8/27/16 Observation time: 11:10 - 11:45 Values displayed on MX-60 charge controller @ MPPT String* Input Output V A W V A 1 52 3.7 184 26 7.1 2 46 3.4 153 26 6 3 38 3.3 122 26.2 4.7 4 37 4.2 152 26.2 5.9 1+2+3+4 41 16 610 26.2 23.3 1+2+4 47 12.3 544 26.2 20.9 *selected using breakers on combiner box at array Hi Allan, I would try turning off string #3 and see what happens to the Vmp. I'm guessing it'll go up to a more normal voltage. Replacement is my thought. Jay Peltz power. On Aug 25, 2016, at 7:04 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: Wrenches, Here's one I haven't seen before. 1997 grid-tie battery backup system that was one of my first, although actual installation was by another before I was licensed. 16 BP 275, 36-cell 12V modules, the standard of that time. Early Outback MX60 replaced C40 around 2005; array rewired to four 48V strings of four modules at that time, serving a 24V battery bank. Tested with an end-of-life 9-year-old AGM battery bank in the system, but in Sell mode with a 26.4V Sell voltage setpoint. At 11 am, 68ºF, 900W/m^2 on the Daystar, with the array under charge, I measured 3.5A, 3.4A, 2.4A, and 3.6A. Short-circuiting each string, I measured 4.0A, 3.7A, 3.8A, and 3.7A. Original rating was 4.45A, so except for the third string, current is what I'd reasonably expect from 20-year-old module degradation. However, watching the periodic MPPT sweep from the MX60 at the array, the maximum power point voltage for the entire 48V array settled at 14.6A at 37.2V, or about 540 watts from a 1,200W (originally rated) array. I have commonly seen the current reduce substantially with age-related degradation, while the MPP voltage remains fairly close to original. I have never seen the voltage drop this far - an average of 9.3V MPP per each 12V module. All of the cells are seriously browned. I have other systems out there with the same modules of similar age that don't exhibit this weird behavior. Can anyone help me understand why the MPP voltage would drop so far below what is typical? There is a slight possibility of corroded buried input conductors, because of a serious but corrected issue of galvanic corrosion from a ground fault (a Romex connector pinching a conductor and allowing seepage to ground). This was corrected years ago, but the input conductors were direct burial for ~100' and there was never a bonding conductor between the array and the house, so there is a potential for corrosion damage. However, the voltage measured at both ends while charging was identical, so I think that would indicate that high conductor resistance isn't the issue. As usual, thank you for the collective and individual wisdom shared here. Allan -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PV-array-output_Aug2016.xlsx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet Size: 45709 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Aug 30 00:57:53 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 21:57:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting ready for 2014 NEC rapid shut down with string inverters In-Reply-To: <2adf27b2f3e80f616e6189eebf49b5d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> <2adf27b2f3e80f616e6189eebf49b5d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <52309756-5bc4-c1b6-9e92-a8042c353844@psln.com> so it looks like a shielded 5 conductor control bundle might work? Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 8/29/2016 1:42 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > August, > > I am not answering your question but SMA tech support folk have > specifically told me that putting our 600V jacketed control wire in the > same EMT as the DC strings is leading to false arc fault trips. > > Matt > > > On Mon, August 29, 2016 3:42 pm, August Goers wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> >> >> >> I’m preparing for 2014 NEC 690.12 Rapid Shutdown to hit in California >> January 2017. Specifically, I’m trying to determine what to do for new >> string inverter based installations. I’m assuming that microinverter, AC >> modules, and systems with power-level electronics (SolarEdge etc) are >> innately compliant. >> >> >> >> I spent a while researching SMA’s rapid shutdown system. It appears that >> we need five 16 or 18 AWG conductors for the control circuit. Any >> recommendations on what type of wire to use assuming we run it in our EMT >> run down from the roof to inverter? Tray Cable might work? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> >> >> August Goers >> >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> >> m: 415.559.1525 >> >> >> o:415.641.4000 >> >> >> august at luminalt.com _______________________________________________ From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Tue Aug 30 11:41:38 2016 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:41:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers In-Reply-To: <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We built one recently out of Unistrut and corrugated roofing, which worked well. See photo attached. Not the best picture but you get the idea. It’s becoming more popular to install these inverters on a rack at the array and SMA even encourages it with their ReadyRack solution. I’m not aware of a shade cover they include for this so it seems they are OK with mounting the TriPower in direct sunlight. I think time will tell if this is a “best practice”. Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 2:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers Has anyone used or had success with any kind of a shade cover?.. specifically for the SMA TL inverters? We have one that is going to get hit by the sun pretty good. Thanks! Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: UD Inverters.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 914213 bytes Desc: UD Inverters.jpg URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Aug 30 17:17:46 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 14:17:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting ready for 2014 NEC rapid shut down with string inverters In-Reply-To: <52309756-5bc4-c1b6-9e92-a8042c353844@psln.com> References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> <2adf27b2f3e80f616e6189eebf49b5d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <52309756-5bc4-c1b6-9e92-a8042c353844@psln.com> Message-ID: I found this 18 AWG 5-conductor 600 v shielded Tray Cable online: http://belden.catalog.belden.com/en/Products/Detail/PF_28335AS or http://www.southwire.com/products/oem-type-tc-control-cable-xhhw-solonon-jacket-renewable-cable.htm Now I guess the question is whether the shielding is adequate to avoid false AFCI tripping with SMA's inverters. Interestingly, Fronius explicitly shows the control wire in the same conduit as the PV output circuits. http://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xbcr/SID-9806262E-5771F465/fronius_usa/RapidShutdownBoxMarch_441527_snapshot.pdf Cheers, August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 9:58 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Getting ready for 2014 NEC rapid shut down with string inverters so it looks like a shielded 5 conductor control bundle might work? Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 8/29/2016 1:42 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > August, > > I am not answering your question but SMA tech support folk have > specifically told me that putting our 600V jacketed control wire in > the same EMT as the DC strings is leading to false arc fault trips. > > Matt > > > On Mon, August 29, 2016 3:42 pm, August Goers wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> >> >> >> I’m preparing for 2014 NEC 690.12 Rapid Shutdown to hit in California >> January 2017. Specifically, I’m trying to determine what to do for >> new string inverter based installations. I’m assuming that >> microinverter, AC modules, and systems with power-level electronics >> (SolarEdge etc) are innately compliant. >> >> >> >> I spent a while researching SMA’s rapid shutdown system. It appears >> that we need five 16 or 18 AWG conductors for the control circuit. >> Any recommendations on what type of wire to use assuming we run it in our >> EMT >> run down from the roof to inverter? Tray Cable might work? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> >> >> August Goers >> >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> >> m: 415.559.1525 >> >> >> o:415.641.4000 >> >> >> august at luminalt.com _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 11:58:48 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 08:58:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kwh for dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> <2adf27b2f3e80f616e6189eebf49b5d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <52309756-5bc4-c1b6-9e92-a8042c353844@psln.com> Message-ID: HI All, I can’t find usage for a dishwasher. And as I don’t have one I can’t test it. Any ideas for a newer high efficiency one? Both kw and kwh? Worst case I guess? thanks jay From will at solarenergy.org Wed Aug 31 13:50:34 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 13:50:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kwh for dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> <2adf27b2f3e80f616e6189eebf49b5d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <52309756-5bc4-c1b6-9e92-a8042c353844@psln.com> Message-ID: You should be able to get kWH from energystar.gov. On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 11:58 AM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I can’t find usage for a dishwasher. > And as I don’t have one I can’t test it. > > Any ideas for a newer high efficiency one? > > Both kw and kwh? Worst case I guess? > > thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 31 14:25:35 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 14:25:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kwh for dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> <2adf27b2f3e80f616e6189eebf49b5d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <52309756-5bc4-c1b6-9e92-a8042c353844@psln.com> Message-ID: Nothing scientific here, but I'd ballpark it at 15W filling, 250W washing, and 1000W drying. Drying is the greatest kWh draw for a whole cycle. I think what you really need to know is kWh per cycle, and number of cycles per day/month/year. Air-dry or hand dry! On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 11:58 AM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I can’t find usage for a dishwasher. > And as I don’t have one I can’t test it. > > Any ideas for a newer high efficiency one? > > Both kw and kwh? Worst case I guess? > > thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Aug 31 16:50:43 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 20:50:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kwh for dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> <2adf27b2f3e80f616e6189eebf49b5d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <52309756-5bc4-c1b6-9e92-a8042c353844@psln.com> Message-ID: For energy budgeting, I use 0.5 kWh per cycle with no heat dry / hot water temp boost. If using heat dry or hot water boost 1 - 1.5 kWh. Peak 1.5 kW for heating, 0.3 kW pumps only. And then of course use of this appliance may trigger water and effluent pumping concurrently. Based on metering several machines over the years, but not the newest. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: August-31-16 8:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] kwh for dishwasher HI All, I can’t find usage for a dishwasher. And as I don’t have one I can’t test it. Any ideas for a newer high efficiency one? Both kw and kwh? Worst case I guess? thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From bzp at brick.net Wed Aug 31 17:06:35 2016 From: bzp at brick.net (frank -bz products) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 16:06:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kwh for dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: <8A762782-BB9E-426E-8E98-302D3452A2E2@solarwork.com> <2910d70a9d594ec2965c1de23850e591@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <72ce711d2d19bea35d7d5fcb7a41d5f2@mail.gmail.com> <2adf27b2f3e80f616e6189eebf49b5d0.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <52309756-5bc4-c1b6-9e92-a8042c353844@psln.com> Message-ID: <7a4f801b-2e65-eb0f-88fe-c5df2b4a071d@brick.net> The heat cycle sterilizes the dishes and should used. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net On 8/31/2016 3:50 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > For energy budgeting, I use 0.5 kWh per cycle with no heat dry / hot water temp boost. If using heat dry or hot water boost 1 - 1.5 kWh. Peak 1.5 kW for heating, 0.3 kW pumps only. > > And then of course use of this appliance may trigger water and effluent pumping concurrently. > > Based on metering several machines over the years, but not the newest. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay > Sent: August-31-16 8:59 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] kwh for dishwasher > > HI All, > > I can’t find usage for a dishwasher. > And as I don’t have one I can’t test it. > > Any ideas for a newer high efficiency one? > > Both kw and kwh? Worst case I guess? > > thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Aug 31 22:37:44 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 20:37:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker controller service? Message-ID: <02f00d97-683c-cf94-e311-0382525f753e@sindelarsolar.com> Wrenches, Array Technologies can no longer support their legacy controllers for their Wattsun residential trackers. Some internal parts are no longer available, and of course their business has expanded far beyond small individual units. Does anyone know of either an easy replacement or an electronics service technician who repairs them? Michael, with whom I have worked and gotten great support for years, had no suggestions. There are plenty of inexpensive Chinese controllers designed to work with linear actuators on Ebay. Has anyone tried one on a Wattsun tracker? Thank you, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 31 23:39:05 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 21:39:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker controller service? In-Reply-To: <02f00d97-683c-cf94-e311-0382525f753e@sindelarsolar.com> References: <02f00d97-683c-cf94-e311-0382525f753e@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <50265f8d-dbd6-35bb-f0f4-6609b36c35b3@solarray.com> My old trick for Wattsun trackers was just to turn them into fixed racks. Usually the tilt actuator could be hot wired with a 12 v battery to get summer and winter tilt. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/31/2016 8:37 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Array Technologies can no longer support their legacy controllers for > their Wattsun residential trackers. Some internal parts are no longer > available, and of course their business has expanded far beyond small > individual units. > Does anyone know of either an easy replacement or an electronics > service technician who repairs them? Michael, with whom I have worked > and gotten great support for years, had no suggestions. > There are plenty of inexpensive Chinese controllers designed to work > with linear actuators on Ebay. Has anyone tried one on a Wattsun tracker? > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Sep 1 00:24:09 2016 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 22:24:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower Message-ID: Hey Wrenches- Just a heads up on the SMA Tripower - I like the inverter, but you gotta read the install manual! Spec sheet says 24 A continuous output current for the 20 kW Tripower. Install manual (and tech support) says 24.1. That extra .1 A takes you from a 30 A to a 35 A breaker. Of course you should follow the install manual not the specs. But what about the label on the side of the inverter? Well I've seen more than a handful that are labeled with a flat-out 24 Aac output current. What's an installer or inspector to do besides hope mfg's can get their numbers in order? Upon closer examination, most of the STPs are 0.1 A higher than their spec sheet per the install manual - it doesn't really make a difference on the 12 or 15 kW models - just the 20 where you have to go up 1 standard OCPD size. Pretty sure there's lots of 20 kW units out there backfeeding a 30 A breaker. Hmmmmm.... Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 31 23:54:52 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 22:54:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker controller service? In-Reply-To: <02f00d97-683c-cf94-e311-0382525f753e@sindelarsolar.com> References: <02f00d97-683c-cf94-e311-0382525f753e@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <01b801d20404$99013860$cb03a920$@sbcglobal.net> Allen, there is a local fellow who manufacturers a tracker (Konza Tracker, http://konzasolar.com/ ) which uses one of the three shadow sensors to keep the tracker oriented. I don’t know what he would charge for just the controller, I’ll cc this to him to see if his could be adapted. His name is Mark Moser, 785/537-5028. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 9:38 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker controller service? Wrenches, Array Technologies can no longer support their legacy controllers for their Wattsun residential trackers. Some internal parts are no longer available, and of course their business has expanded far beyond small individual units. Does anyone know of either an easy replacement or an electronics service technician who repairs them? Michael, with whom I have worked and gotten great support for years, had no suggestions. There are plenty of inexpensive Chinese controllers designed to work with linear actuators on Ebay. Has anyone tried one on a Wattsun tracker? Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at hudsonsolar.com Thu Sep 1 08:51:46 2016 From: Gary at hudsonsolar.com (Gary Bassett) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 12:51:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries Message-ID: <4c9022358cd54ad38ff888fd1101fad5@Hosted-MS-3.elcomp.local> We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently - about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? Gary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 09:31:58 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 09:31:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: <4c9022358cd54ad38ff888fd1101fad5@Hosted-MS-3.elcomp.local> References: <4c9022358cd54ad38ff888fd1101fad5@Hosted-MS-3.elcomp.local> Message-ID: Gary, I have just two methods I use to test all batteries. I do a voltage check of each battery under load with solar input shut off. You will quickly find a battery with a bad cell or two. It is best to do this test when the batteries are already somewhat discharged to see clearer results. When under charge, and even floating or with a light load, a battery with bad cells can look OK in the voltage check. Bad cells can show up as down about 1.5 to 2 volts for each bad cell from normal. I have also seen batteries that not only dropped in voltage but actually changed polarity. Had a 6volt L16 read -2 VDC. That dropped the string by 8 volts!!! Typically bad cell problems will show up after some discharge and if a single string, the string voltage suddenly drops down. In parallel strings the numbers get really random but other batteries in same string will rise high to compensate for the low battery. I have seen a 6 volt go to +9 volts and was boiling violently. (hence why multiple strings are not the best design). If the above checks are OK, batteries still appearing to be weak have reached the twilight of their lives and a plan is needed to retire them. $$$$ 9 years seems about right from my experience to see serious decline in output. The other quick test for parallel string batteries is to use the DC clamp meter to check each string as being roughly equal in current under load or under full charge rate. This will find bad cells, different aged batteries, and /or bad connections. When you lose a string, that will definitely reduce the coasting time. I don't check specific gravity for two reasons. It is time consuming and moving acid around is not good in my book. I have found individual batteries with low specific gravity readings that went on to work OK for many years, If the batteries pass my voltage and current checks, I call them good to go. John Blittersdorf Solar Guru Rob Stubbins Solar (division of Rob Stubbins Electrical and General Contractors) 280 Quality Lane Rutland, VT 05701 802-775-1484 ext 512 On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Gary Bassett wrote: > We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender > PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out > frequently – about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the > battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One > of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of > the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like > it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery > capacity? > > > > Gary > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Thu Sep 1 09:38:43 2016 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 13:38:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7329BF7C-6C56-4382-AC95-2B5810AF7391@solarserviceinc.com> Hi Brian, Can we not invoke Art. 220.5(B) Fractions of an Ampere to round down to a 30A OCPD in this case? I suppose that .1 could be pretty significant when combining many of these inverters. Garrison Riegel Solar Service Inc On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:24 PM, Brian Mehalic > wrote: Hey Wrenches- Just a heads up on the SMA Tripower - I like the inverter, but you gotta read the install manual! Spec sheet says 24 A continuous output current for the 20 kW Tripower. Install manual (and tech support) says 24.1. That extra .1 A takes you from a 30 A to a 35 A breaker. Of course you should follow the install manual not the specs. But what about the label on the side of the inverter? Well I've seen more than a handful that are labeled with a flat-out 24 Aac output current. What's an installer or inspector to do besides hope mfg's can get their numbers in order? Upon closer examination, most of the STPs are 0.1 A higher than their spec sheet per the install manual - it doesn't really make a difference on the 12 or 15 kW models - just the 20 where you have to go up 1 standard OCPD size. Pretty sure there's lots of 20 kW units out there backfeeding a 30 A breaker. Hmmmmm.... Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Sep 1 09:43:53 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 09:43:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: <4c9022358cd54ad38ff888fd1101fad5@Hosted-MS-3.elcomp.local> References: <4c9022358cd54ad38ff888fd1101fad5@Hosted-MS-3.elcomp.local> Message-ID: Gary I would suggest that the battery manufacture’s recommended method is followed. Yeah it IS time consuming BUT… Checking w/ a clamp on during a charge or discharge depending on the # of strings &/or the way the strings are configured will be misleading. Your customer is paying by the hour and a the choice is theirs replace OR pay your tech to watch the voltage/current over the manu’s discharge time. These batteries can be run thru an equalization cycle, following the guide lines recommended by Concord, then do your load test. Full charge to discharge over time IS the only way. > On Sep 1, 2016, at 8:51 AM, Gary Bassett wrote: > > We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently – about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? > > Gary > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 10:31:23 2016 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 08:31:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower In-Reply-To: <7329BF7C-6C56-4382-AC95-2B5810AF7391@solarserviceinc.com> References: <7329BF7C-6C56-4382-AC95-2B5810AF7391@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: Woah way to pull out an awesome NEC reference Garrison! I'm not totally convinced it applies though, since Article 220 is specifically for branch circuits, feeders and service load calcs. The circuit in question here is defined by 690.1(b) as an *inverter output circuit*, the OCPD has to be sized per 690.9(B), and 90.3 says that Chapter 6 as a special condition modifies Ch 1-4. I've tried for a few years to figure out good rules for significant digits in relation to PV conductor calcs, and it seems really hard to apply any rules consistently or well, when we are dealing with temp coefficients likes .0031. If you apply common significant digit rules to maximum system voltage calcs, you seem to end up back at STC VOC... Which makes me hesitant to round up or down for ampacity or voltage calcs (especially since I was a liberal arts major in college). It's a very interesting Code question! On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 7:38 AM, Garrison Riegel < Garrison at solarserviceinc.com> wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Can we not invoke Art. 220.5(B) Fractions of an Ampere to round down to a > 30A OCPD in this case? > > I suppose that .1 could be pretty significant when combining many of these > inverters. > > Garrison Riegel > Solar Service Inc > > On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:24 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Hey Wrenches- > Just a heads up on the SMA Tripower - I like the inverter, but you gotta > read the install manual! > > Spec sheet says 24 A continuous output current for the 20 kW Tripower. > Install manual (and tech support) says 24.1. That extra .1 A takes you > from a 30 A to a 35 A breaker. > > Of course you should follow the install manual not the specs. But what > about the label on the side of the inverter? Well I've seen more than a > handful that are labeled with a flat-out 24 Aac output current. What's an > installer or inspector to do besides hope mfg's can get their numbers in > order? > > Upon closer examination, most of the STPs are 0.1 A higher than their spec > sheet per the install manual - it doesn't really make a difference on the > 12 or 15 kW models - just the 20 where you have to go up 1 standard OCPD > size. Pretty sure there's lots of 20 kW units out there backfeeding a 30 A > breaker. Hmmmmm.... > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > 520.204.6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 1 10:42:37 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 07:42:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower In-Reply-To: <7329BF7C-6C56-4382-AC95-2B5810AF7391@solarserviceinc.com> References: <7329BF7C-6C56-4382-AC95-2B5810AF7391@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <1f7bb5588e089a4ea7c8c903547eda73@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: Ronnie Raxter of SMA has a training video on the SMA web site in which she sites just this clause. Showing this to an inspector or plan checker may convince them. Ms. Raxter has been very helpful and responsive to many inquiries I have made regarding the various SMA products. She is definitely an asset to SMA and installers. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Garrison Riegel *Sent:* Thursday, September 01, 2016 6:39 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower Hi Brian, Can we not invoke Art. 220.5(B) Fractions of an Ampere to round down to a 30A OCPD in this case? I suppose that .1 could be pretty significant when combining many of these inverters. Garrison Riegel Solar Service Inc On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:24 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Hey Wrenches- Just a heads up on the SMA Tripower - I like the inverter, but you gotta read the install manual! Spec sheet says 24 A continuous output current for the 20 kW Tripower. Install manual (and tech support) says 24.1. That extra .1 A takes you from a 30 A to a 35 A breaker. Of course you should follow the install manual not the specs. But what about the label on the side of the inverter? Well I've seen more than a handful that are labeled with a flat-out 24 Aac output current. What's an installer or inspector to do besides hope mfg's can get their numbers in order? Upon closer examination, most of the STPs are 0.1 A higher than their spec sheet per the install manual - it doesn't really make a difference on the 12 or 15 kW models - just the 20 where you have to go up 1 standard OCPD size. Pretty sure there's lots of 20 kW units out there backfeeding a 30 A breaker. Hmmmmm.... Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 16:00:08 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2016 10:00:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries Message-ID: Wrenches You can do a carbon pile test but the best way is testing under several conditions. Here is an option real easy and maybe faster, put a volt meter on each battery under constant charge conditions, higher volts on one battery meens high resistance in battery, low volts meens low resistance, either extreme can be an issue.  Then let sit for at least an hour with no load and check the volts, next put a fixed load on the system, again a volt meter check each battery,  here you may find a lower reading then the rest, there is the problem, now replace the entire bank not just the single battery. This is an easy test and the customer can see it easily too. Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Gary Bassett
Date:09/01/2016 2:51 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org)"
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries
We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently – about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? Gary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markb at cobaltpower.com Thu Sep 1 18:59:46 2016 From: markb at cobaltpower.com (Mark Byington) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 15:59:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker controller service? Message-ID: <014e01d204a4$89235ef0$9b6a1cd0$@cobaltpower.com> For custom tracker controller development, diagnosis, and replacement, we recommend Mogens Lauritzen at www.lauritzen.biz . We have used them for replacement of flaky single axis controllers, and their work has been flawless. Mark Byington Cobalt Power Systems, Inc. markb at cobaltpower.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Thu Sep 1 19:20:43 2016 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 23:20:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower In-Reply-To: References: <7329BF7C-6C56-4382-AC95-2B5810AF7391@solarserviceinc.com>, Message-ID: Hi Rebekah, You make a good point and I definitely agree with your logic, but does current on an inverter output circuit act any differently than current on a branch, feeder, etc, covered under 220? I've used this code section to round down in the past and to date it's been accepted. It has never been questioned though either :/ As far as when to round up or down, it's a really good question. I almost always round to the more conservative value, after the calculations are complete, except when it will add significant cost to the project and the Code seems to allow us to round down and the AHJ deems it acceptable. Just another gray area in the Code that keeps life exciting! Think I need to get out more... Garrison ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Rebekah Hren Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2016 9:31:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower Woah way to pull out an awesome NEC reference Garrison! I'm not totally convinced it applies though, since Article 220 is specifically for branch circuits, feeders and service load calcs. The circuit in question here is defined by 690.1(b) as an inverter output circuit, the OCPD has to be sized per 690.9(B), and 90.3 says that Chapter 6 as a special condition modifies Ch 1-4. I've tried for a few years to figure out good rules for significant digits in relation to PV conductor calcs, and it seems really hard to apply any rules consistently or well, when we are dealing with temp coefficients likes .0031. If you apply common significant digit rules to maximum system voltage calcs, you seem to end up back at STC VOC... Which makes me hesitant to round up or down for ampacity or voltage calcs (especially since I was a liberal arts major in college). It's a very interesting Code question! On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 7:38 AM, Garrison Riegel > wrote: Hi Brian, Can we not invoke Art. 220.5(B) Fractions of an Ampere to round down to a 30A OCPD in this case? I suppose that .1 could be pretty significant when combining many of these inverters. Garrison Riegel Solar Service Inc On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:24 PM, Brian Mehalic > wrote: Hey Wrenches- Just a heads up on the SMA Tripower - I like the inverter, but you gotta read the install manual! Spec sheet says 24 A continuous output current for the 20 kW Tripower. Install manual (and tech support) says 24.1. That extra .1 A takes you from a 30 A to a 35 A breaker. Of course you should follow the install manual not the specs. But what about the label on the side of the inverter? Well I've seen more than a handful that are labeled with a flat-out 24 Aac output current. What's an installer or inspector to do besides hope mfg's can get their numbers in order? Upon closer examination, most of the STPs are 0.1 A higher than their spec sheet per the install manual - it doesn't really make a difference on the 12 or 15 kW models - just the 20 where you have to go up 1 standard OCPD size. Pretty sure there's lots of 20 kW units out there backfeeding a 30 A breaker. Hmmmmm.... Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 1 19:43:49 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 17:43:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> Hi Gary; I think it would be a waste of time to load test a sealed battery that is 9 years old. Even at only 20% discharge, that battery only has 2800 cycles. At 80% discharge, its 550 cycles. The daily system cycle is probably roughly a 10% cycle, coupled with the frequent deep cycles. We have been seeing 5 to 7 years in GTB systems with regular sealed batteries. Even in float mode, they don't last forever. Also the customer has already done a basic load test, and the battery is failing. Its only a matter of time before you start seeing cell failures, and then the system won't even work when the grid is up. I'd just replace the set on your next trip. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/1/2016 2:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Wrenches > You can do a carbon pile test but the best way is testing under > several conditions. Here is an option real easy and maybe faster, put > a volt meter on each battery under constant charge conditions, higher > volts on one battery meens high resistance in battery, low volts meens > low resistance, either extreme can be an issue. Then let sit for at > least an hour with no load and check the volts, next put a fixed load > on the system, again a volt meter check each battery, here you may > find a lower reading then the rest, there is the problem, now replace > the entire bank not just the single battery. This is an easy test and > the customer can see it easily too. > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Gary Bassett > Date:09/01/2016 2:51 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org)" > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries > > We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender > PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out > frequently – about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes > out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty > quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to > test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure > from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a > quick way to test the battery capacity? > > Gary > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Sep 1 20:14:59 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 18:14:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers In-Reply-To: <149CD9B7-715C-4AB7-80C5-153F4AB2DC1D@skyfireenergy.com> References: <610156486.381194.1472238071332.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <610156486.381194.1472238071332@mail.yahoo.com> <3913DB92-D058-4B2C-8B11-73EF6B3E043A@skyfireenergy.com> <757f99db-40ef-f500-716e-d60aadb724a6@psln.com> <92F15621-3BEB-447F-9155-501FDF021B93@gmail.com> <149CD9B7-715C-4AB7-80C5-153F4AB2DC1D@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <02B15B60-6DE5-4A15-BFC4-2E63D8A97433@skyfireenergy.com> Actually there would NOT be any direct sun exposure (sun passing north of overhead) around midday around here. The only direct sun exposure on a north wall would be in the summer mornings and evenings. See the sun path chart on this linked page.... http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/edmonton.html Midday sun on a north wall in Panama??? Now that is another story..... http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/panama.html Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 29, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Nick, > Yes, there would be some direct sun exposure midday as well. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > >> On Aug 28, 2016, at 10:27 PM, Nick Soleil wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenches. >> >> >> Yes, our product is NEMA 6, so is pretty robust once the DC and AC cables are connected. That said, our M215 Installation and Operation Manual states that the microinverters should not be installed in a location that allows for "long term exposure to direct sunlight." The challenge with north facing locations is that the sun does pass to the north of direct overhead for several hours a day in the summer months. Depending on the amount of exposure during the summer afternoons, this could be problematic. >> >> >> See page 18 of the manual: >> >> https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/M215_Installation_Manual_NA.pdf >> >> >> >> Cordially, >> Nick Soleil >> Enphase Energy >> | Field Applications Engineer >> >> (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office >> (707) 321-2937 // cell >> >> >> Energy >> Evolved >> ™ >> >> >> Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System >> >> >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 >> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 >> Texas Master Electrician #284451 >> >> “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” >> - William McDonough >> >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay >> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 6:43 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] After market SMA TL inverter shade covers >> >> Hi Bill and Benn, >> >> Those micros are rated nema 6, which is submersible rated. >> >> I”m curious which element/s they are referring to? >> >> jay >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Aug 28, 2016, at 6:35 PM, frenergy wrote: >>> >>> Benn, >>> >>> Just curious, if they are on a north facing wall at your latitude (Edmonton?) they shouldn't ever see any sun or just the tiniest bit. Considering the normal location of micros it seems some wind and rain should be expected whether under a module or under a north facing eave. Enlighten me. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>>> On 8/28/2016 5:23 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >>>> We are working on a service call for an enphase system (installed by others) where the 9 inverters are located, exposed to the elements, on rack on a north facing wall (rooftop equipment enclosure). The modules are installed about 75' away as decorative(?) awnings for a downtown penthouse suite. >>>> So far about 3 of the enphase inverters (M215's I believe, would have to double check) have failed and have been replaced and I recently was on the service call where enphase determined that 4 more would need to be replaced as well. >>>> Enphase is claiming that the inverters are failing because they are exposed to the elements. >>>> We are in the process of designing a cover for them that would provide at least as much protection as a module would. >>>> >>>> Benn Kilburn >>>> SkyFire Energy Inc. >>>> 780-906-7807 >>>> >>>> On Aug 26, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Peter Giroux wrote: >>>> >>>>> Andrew >>>>> >>>>> We had some problems last year with some of the fronius primos leaking in rain / wind conditions. Customer had a local shop tig weld an aluminum shell / box that went around the unit. Had a shelf at the top that stuck out like the brim of a hat. Worked great. We had also looked for something and this custom made box was reasonably priced, looked great and solved the leaking issue. If you want pictures let me know. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Giroux >>>>> American Solar >>>>> Roswell Ga >>>>> 678-525-0468 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 20:19:27 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 17:19:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> Message-ID: <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> HI Ray, I second your opinion. jay peltz power > On Sep 1, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Hi Gary; > > I think it would be a waste of time to load test a sealed battery that is 9 years old. Even at only 20% discharge, that battery only has 2800 cycles. At 80% discharge, its 550 cycles. The daily system cycle is probably roughly a 10% cycle, coupled with the frequent deep cycles. We have been seeing 5 to 7 years in GTB systems with regular sealed batteries. Even in float mode, they don't last forever. > Also the customer has already done a basic load test, and the battery is failing. Its only a matter of time before you start seeing cell failures, and then the system won't even work when the grid is up. > I'd just replace the set on your next trip. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 9/1/2016 2:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: >> Wrenches >> You can do a carbon pile test but the best way is testing under several conditions. Here is an option real easy and maybe faster, put a volt meter on each battery under constant charge conditions, higher volts on one battery meens high resistance in battery, low volts meens low resistance, either extreme can be an issue. Then let sit for at least an hour with no load and check the volts, next put a fixed load on the system, again a volt meter check each battery, here you may find a lower reading then the rest, there is the problem, now replace the entire bank not just the single battery. This is an easy test and the customer can see it easily too. >> Jerry >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Gary Bassett >> Date:09/01/2016 2:51 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )" >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries >> >> We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently – about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? >> >> >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Sep 1 21:51:33 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 19:51:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> Hear, Hear, Gary, listen to the Graybeards. One thing I would like to mention here. Over the last 3 years, I have seen a dramatic increase of early failures of Lifeline (like Sun Xtender, made by Concorde) batteries. I have been selling and installing Lifeline since 2004 and have hundreds of 8-12 year old battery systems being used. I have not been able to identify any cause related to use. So, has anyone seen Sun Xtender or Concorde early failures in recent years? BTW, we have been selling FullRiver batteries for a few years now with no failures and very happy customers. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Sep 1, 2016, at 6:19 PM, jay wrote: HI Ray, I second your opinion. jay peltz power > On Sep 1, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > Hi Gary; > > I think it would be a waste of time to load test a sealed battery that is 9 years old. Even at only 20% discharge, that battery only has 2800 cycles. At 80% discharge, its 550 cycles. The daily system cycle is probably roughly a 10% cycle, coupled with the frequent deep cycles. We have been seeing 5 to 7 years in GTB systems with regular sealed batteries. Even in float mode, they don't last forever. > Also the customer has already done a basic load test, and the battery is failing. Its only a matter of time before you start seeing cell failures, and then the system won't even work when the grid is up. > I'd just replace the set on your next trip. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 9/1/2016 2:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: >> Wrenches >> You can do a carbon pile test but the best way is testing under several conditions. Here is an option real easy and maybe faster, put a volt meter on each battery under constant charge conditions, higher volts on one battery meens high resistance in battery, low volts meens low resistance, either extreme can be an issue. Then let sit for at least an hour with no load and check the volts, next put a fixed load on the system, again a volt meter check each battery, here you may find a lower reading then the rest, there is the problem, now replace the entire bank not just the single battery. This is an easy test and the customer can see it easily too. >> Jerry >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Gary Bassett >> Date:09/01/2016 2:51 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )" >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries >> >> We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently – about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? >> >> >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Thu Sep 1 22:08:13 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 21:08:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 22:34:03 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 19:34:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: I haven’t use the 2v, but have used many 6v L-16s Been in 2 years at most. so far so good. They are about 10lbs heavier than either a Trojan or Rolls L-16/flooded. jay > On Sep 1, 2016, at 7:08 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > > Larry: > > What is your experience with FullRiver DC1150-2 2V 1150AH AGM L16 battery? > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > Icarus Engineering LLC > 214-629-4279 > > On 9/1/16 8:51 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> Hear, Hear, Gary, listen to the Graybeards. >> >> One thing I would like to mention here. Over the last 3 years, I have seen a dramatic increase of early failures of Lifeline (like Sun Xtender, made by Concorde) batteries. I have been selling and installing Lifeline since 2004 and have hundreds of 8-12 year old battery systems being used. I have not been able to identify any cause related to use. >> >> So, has anyone seen Sun Xtender or Concorde early failures in recent years? >> BTW, we have been selling FullRiver batteries for a few years now with no failures and very happy customers. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> (928) 342-9103 >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 1, 2016, at 6:19 PM, jay > wrote: >> >> HI Ray, >> >> I second your opinion. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gary; >>> >>> I think it would be a waste of time to load test a sealed battery that is 9 years old. Even at only 20% discharge, that battery only has 2800 cycles. At 80% discharge, its 550 cycles. The daily system cycle is probably roughly a 10% cycle, coupled with the frequent deep cycles. We have been seeing 5 to 7 years in GTB systems with regular sealed batteries. Even in float mode, they don't last forever. >>> Also the customer has already done a basic load test, and the battery is failing. Its only a matter of time before you start seeing cell failures, and then the system won't even work when the grid is up. >>> I'd just replace the set on your next trip. >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 9/1/2016 2:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: >>>> Wrenches >>>> You can do a carbon pile test but the best way is testing under several conditions. Here is an option real easy and maybe faster, put a volt meter on each battery under constant charge conditions, higher volts on one battery meens high resistance in battery, low volts meens low resistance, either extreme can be an issue. Then let sit for at least an hour with no load and check the volts, next put a fixed load on the system, again a volt meter check each battery, here you may find a lower reading then the rest, there is the problem, now replace the entire bank not just the single battery. This is an easy test and the customer can see it easily too. >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Gary Bassett >>>> Date:09/01/2016 2:51 AM (GMT-10:00) >>>> To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )" >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries >>>> >>>> We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently – about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 01:59:32 2016 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 01:59:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries Message-ID: Greetings Gary, I like what John and Tump provided for advice on this. They both have a great deal of experience with batteries. I agree some of what John described can produce misleading numbers. The Concorde (manufacturer's) recommended test procedure will take a fair amount of time, but observing actual amp hours "in" (charge) and amp hours "out" (discharge) while observing voltage will give the most accurate results. These are AGM VRLA batteries, so measuring specific gravity with a refractometer as part of testing is not an option. If these batteries are about 9 years old it may be time for their owner to invest in new replacements depending on how well they have been cared for and how much exercise they have, or have not had. Labor time testing and trying to recover these batteries can be viewed as expensive, especially if they end up needing to be replaced anyways. If they were still under warranty the manufacturer's recommended test may have to be performed in order to obtain a warranty replacement. I doubt this is the case with this ~9 year old battery system. I can look at a case like this in a couple of different ways... Do we want to see if we can find one or two batteries that are causing the issue and try to recover them, or do we need to determine the actual battery system Ah/kWh capacity? Sometimes we need to do both. With a battery bank like this the technician should be able to at least determine if any one or two batteries stand out as being the issue(s) ("weakest link in the chain"). Internal resistance testing is one helpful way to help determine this. Since these are 12V batteries an automotive battery internal resistance tester may be used. If I was troubleshooting this battery system I would take and record voltage and current measurements as the system is. Then I would un-wire the batteries from each other; removing the interconnect cables, fuses, and inverter cables. I would take and record VOC measurements of each battery, ideally after they were at rest for at least a few hours. Next I would use a 12VDC internal resistance battery tester to test each battery. A cold cranking amp (CCA) value may need to be entered in to the tester before testing. Since these are not starting batteries, I don't think Concorde publishes a CCA rating. A good way to come up with a value to enter is to see if Concord does publish a CCA/MCCA rating for one of their somewhat similar batteries sold to the marine or heavy equipment industry. Or look at CCA/MCCA ratings for other 12V Group 4D batteries. If the tester used is designed for passenger car and light truck staring batteries you may just end up using the highest CCA setting of the tester. It is NOT critical the CCA value used is exactly correct for the battery being tested here, just that it is in the general ballpark. For these Concorde batteries this may be approximately 850CCA-1250CCA. What is critical to the testing is that the same CCA value be used for testing each of the batteries. If this testing is performed carefully it may allow the technician to identify one or more batteries which stand out as having a higher internal resistance than the rest of the batteries in the system. Ideally this same testing would be performed when the batteries are new, first placed in service. This would provide a benchmark to compare them to on preventative maintenance service visits and troubleshooting etc. In the case of this existing battery system it would be great if the test could be performed on a new Concorde of the same model for comparison (if available). After individual internal resistance testing I would probably give each 12V battery an equalization charge based on Concorde's specifications. Then I would let them rest, disconnected, for 24 hours and then perform the testing again. If a battery charger capable of charging each battery individually was not available I would consider pairing batteries with the most similar test results into series strings and charging the strings separately, one at a time. And then disconnect them, let them rest for 24 hours, and retest. A couple other pieces of advice with these Concorde AGM batteries: Care must be taken not to charge or equalize them at voltages higher than specified in the manufacturer's literature. Also, care needs to be taken when attaching/detaching battery cables. Over torquing or leveraging the hardware connecting cables to battery terminals/posts can torque the battery terminals/posts and disrupt the seal between the terminal/post and the case among other potential issues. If this occurs the battery may be capable of offgassing around the terminal which will likely cause sulfation on the connection over time. I'm assuming these batteries are configured as a 48V system (2 strings of 4 batteries each). If you end up with at least 4 good batteries perhaps you may consider rewiring the best 4 as a single series string; so the system owner has some backup capacity while they consider total battery system replacement. I hope these thoughts may be helpful. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 12:51:46 +0000 From: Gary Bassett To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org)" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries Message-ID: <4c9022358cd54ad38ff888fd1101fad5 at Hosted-MS-3.elcomp.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently - about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? Gary Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 09:31:58 -0400 From: John Blittersdorf To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries Gary, I have just two methods I use to test all batteries. I do a voltage check of each battery under load with solar input shut off. You will quickly find a battery with a bad cell or two. It is best to do this test when the batteries are already somewhat discharged to see clearer results. When under charge, and even floating or with a light load, a battery with bad cells can look OK in the voltage check. Bad cells can show up as down about 1.5 to 2 volts for each bad cell from normal. I have also seen batteries that not only dropped in voltage but actually changed polarity. Had a 6volt L16 read -2 VDC. Thatdropped the string by 8 volts!!! Typically bad cell problems will show up after some discharge and if a single string, the string voltage suddenly drops down. In parallel strings the numbers get really random but other batteries in same string will rise high to compensate for the low battery. I have seen a 6 volt go to +9 volts and was boiling violently. (hence why multiple strings are not the best design). If the above checks are OK, batteries still appearing to be weak have reached the twilight of their lives and a plan is needed to retire them. $$$$ 9 years seems about right from my experience to see serious decline in output. The other quick test for parallel string batteries is to use the DC clamp meter to check each string as being roughly equal in current under load or under full charge rate. This will find bad cells, different aged batteries, and /or bad connections. When you lose a string, that will definitely reduce the coasting time. I don't check specific gravity for two reasons. It is time consuming and moving acid around is not good in my book. I have found individual batteries with low specific gravity readings that went on to work OK for many years, If the batteries pass my voltage and current checks, I call them good to go. John Blittersdorf Solar Guru Rob Stubbins Solar (division of Rob Stubbins Electrical and General Contractors) 280 Quality Lane Rutland, VT 05701 802-775-1484 ext 512 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 09:43:53 -0400 From: Tump To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries Gary I would suggest that the battery manufacture?s recommended method is followed. Yeah it IS time consuming BUT? Checking w/ a clamp on during a charge or discharge depending on the # of strings &/or the way the strings are configured will be misleading. Your customer is paying by the hour and a the choice is theirs replace OR pay your tech to watch the voltage/current over the manu?s discharge time. These batteries can be run thru an equalization cycle, following the guide lines recommended by Concord, then do your load test. Full charge to discharge over time IS the only way. From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Sep 2 10:43:27 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 08:43:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <72992B7A-5362-4944-B8EC-E73664CFEBD2@starlightsolar.com> Hey Gary, We have used those in about 10 systems. Our oldest bank of 2V is about 5 years. As with all FullRiver batteries, no one has had any trouble. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 1, 2016, at 8:08 PM, Gary Willett wrote: Larry: What is your experience with FullRiver DC1150-2 2V 1150AH AGM L16 battery? Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Engineering LLC 214-629-4279 On 9/1/16 8:51 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Hear, Hear, Gary, listen to the Graybeards. > > One thing I would like to mention here. Over the last 3 years, I have seen a dramatic increase of early failures of Lifeline (like Sun Xtender, made by Concorde) batteries. I have been selling and installing Lifeline since 2004 and have hundreds of 8-12 year old battery systems being used. I have not been able to identify any cause related to use. > > So, has anyone seen Sun Xtender or Concorde early failures in recent years? > BTW, we have been selling FullRiver batteries for a few years now with no failures and very happy customers. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > (928) 342-9103 > > > > > On Sep 1, 2016, at 6:19 PM, jay > wrote: > > HI Ray, > > I second your opinion. > > jay > > peltz power >> On Sep 1, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: >> >> Hi Gary; >> >> I think it would be a waste of time to load test a sealed battery that is 9 years old. Even at only 20% discharge, that battery only has 2800 cycles. At 80% discharge, its 550 cycles. The daily system cycle is probably roughly a 10% cycle, coupled with the frequent deep cycles. We have been seeing 5 to 7 years in GTB systems with regular sealed batteries. Even in float mode, they don't last forever. >> Also the customer has already done a basic load test, and the battery is failing. Its only a matter of time before you start seeing cell failures, and then the system won't even work when the grid is up. >> I'd just replace the set on your next trip. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/1/2016 2:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: >>> Wrenches >>> You can do a carbon pile test but the best way is testing under several conditions. Here is an option real easy and maybe faster, put a volt meter on each battery under constant charge conditions, higher volts on one battery meens high resistance in battery, low volts meens low resistance, either extreme can be an issue. Then let sit for at least an hour with no load and check the volts, next put a fixed load on the system, again a volt meter check each battery, here you may find a lower reading then the rest, there is the problem, now replace the entire bank not just the single battery. This is an easy test and the customer can see it easily too. >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Gary Bassett >>> Date:09/01/2016 2:51 AM (GMT-10:00) >>> To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )" >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries >>> >>> We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently – about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrpackard88 at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 10:52:17 2016 From: mrpackard88 at gmail.com (Michael Packard) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 07:52:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: <72992B7A-5362-4944-B8EC-E73664CFEBD2@starlightsolar.com> References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> <72992B7A-5362-4944-B8EC-E73664CFEBD2@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hello all, I have 2 sets of Concorde Sun-Extender batts I installed in the one and only Richard Perez' home about 4 years ago. One 12v pack and one 24v pack. No signs of anything kinky. I try to Re-torque terminals every 1-2 years. I will probably re-torque them again next week when I visit. Cheers wrenches! M.Packard Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 2, 2016, at 7:43 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Hey Gary, > > We have used those in about 10 systems. Our oldest bank of 2V is about 5 years. As with all FullRiver batteries, no one has had any trouble. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Sep 1, 2016, at 8:08 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > > Larry: > > What is your experience with FullRiver DC1150-2 2V 1150AH AGM L16 battery? > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > Icarus Engineering LLC > 214-629-4279 > >> On 9/1/16 8:51 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> Hear, Hear, Gary, listen to the Graybeards. >> >> One thing I would like to mention here. Over the last 3 years, I have seen a dramatic increase of early failures of Lifeline (like Sun Xtender, made by Concorde) batteries. I have been selling and installing Lifeline since 2004 and have hundreds of 8-12 year old battery systems being used. I have not been able to identify any cause related to use. >> >> So, has anyone seen Sun Xtender or Concorde early failures in recent years? >> BTW, we have been selling FullRiver batteries for a few years now with no failures and very happy customers. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> (928) 342-9103 >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 1, 2016, at 6:19 PM, jay wrote: >> >> HI Ray, >> >> I second your opinion. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gary; >>> >>> I think it would be a waste of time to load test a sealed battery that is 9 years old. Even at only 20% discharge, that battery only has 2800 cycles. At 80% discharge, its 550 cycles. The daily system cycle is probably roughly a 10% cycle, coupled with the frequent deep cycles. We have been seeing 5 to 7 years in GTB systems with regular sealed batteries. Even in float mode, they don't last forever. >>> Also the customer has already done a basic load test, and the battery is failing. Its only a matter of time before you start seeing cell failures, and then the system won't even work when the grid is up. >>> I'd just replace the set on your next trip. >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 9/1/2016 2:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: >>>> Wrenches >>>> You can do a carbon pile test but the best way is testing under several conditions. Here is an option real easy and maybe faster, put a volt meter on each battery under constant charge conditions, higher volts on one battery meens high resistance in battery, low volts meens low resistance, either extreme can be an issue. Then let sit for at least an hour with no load and check the volts, next put a fixed load on the system, again a volt meter check each battery, here you may find a lower reading then the rest, there is the problem, now replace the entire bank not just the single battery. This is an easy test and the customer can see it easily too. >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Gary Bassett >>>> Date:09/01/2016 2:51 AM (GMT-10:00) >>>> To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org)" >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries >>>> >>>> We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently – about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 2 12:02:50 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 09:02:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower In-Reply-To: <7329BF7C-6C56-4382-AC95-2B5810AF7391@solarserviceinc.com> References: <7329BF7C-6C56-4382-AC95-2B5810AF7391@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: I checked the math and it indeed seems like a rounding issue – 20,000 W / 480 V / √3 = 24.05626122 A I wonder if the SMA tech support agent that Brian spoke with was just reading the manual when they said it was 24.1 A. Regardless, it seems like we would need to rely on the manufacturer to clarify their intent when the nameplate and manuals don’t match up. I had been taught to rely on the nameplate right on the device when all else fails. Hopefully no one has a situation where this actually matters! August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Garrison Riegel *Sent:* Thursday, September 01, 2016 6:39 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower Hi Brian, Can we not invoke Art. 220.5(B) Fractions of an Ampere to round down to a 30A OCPD in this case? I suppose that .1 could be pretty significant when combining many of these inverters. Garrison Riegel Solar Service Inc On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:24 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Hey Wrenches- Just a heads up on the SMA Tripower - I like the inverter, but you gotta read the install manual! Spec sheet says 24 A continuous output current for the 20 kW Tripower. Install manual (and tech support) says 24.1. That extra .1 A takes you from a 30 A to a 35 A breaker. Of course you should follow the install manual not the specs. But what about the label on the side of the inverter? Well I've seen more than a handful that are labeled with a flat-out 24 Aac output current. What's an installer or inspector to do besides hope mfg's can get their numbers in order? Upon closer examination, most of the STPs are 0.1 A higher than their spec sheet per the install manual - it doesn't really make a difference on the 12 or 15 kW models - just the 20 where you have to go up 1 standard OCPD size. Pretty sure there's lots of 20 kW units out there backfeeding a 30 A breaker. Hmmmmm.... Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Fri Sep 2 12:40:55 2016 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 16:40:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Gary A number of years ago I designed the back-up system for the Washington DC Metro System communications in conjunction with Apollo Solar. After extensive testing of both the Concorde and Full River brand batteries. We chose Concorde SunXtender because of failures in the Full River during testing. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [New-Logo-Solar-BiZ] E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email - You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don't lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off... It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Willett Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 9:08 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries Larry: What is your experience with FullRiver DC1150-2 2V 1150AH AGM L16 battery? Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Engineering LLC 214-629-4279 On 9/1/16 8:51 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hear, Hear, Gary, listen to the Graybeards. One thing I would like to mention here. Over the last 3 years, I have seen a dramatic increase of early failures of Lifeline (like Sun Xtender, made by Concorde) batteries. I have been selling and installing Lifeline since 2004 and have hundreds of 8-12 year old battery systems being used. I have not been able to identify any cause related to use. So, has anyone seen Sun Xtender or Concorde early failures in recent years? BTW, we have been selling FullRiver batteries for a few years now with no failures and very happy customers. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Sep 1, 2016, at 6:19 PM, jay > wrote: HI Ray, I second your opinion. jay peltz power On Sep 1, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: Hi Gary; I think it would be a waste of time to load test a sealed battery that is 9 years old. Even at only 20% discharge, that battery only has 2800 cycles. At 80% discharge, its 550 cycles. The daily system cycle is probably roughly a 10% cycle, coupled with the frequent deep cycles. We have been seeing 5 to 7 years in GTB systems with regular sealed batteries. Even in float mode, they don't last forever. Also the customer has already done a basic load test, and the battery is failing. Its only a matter of time before you start seeing cell failures, and then the system won't even work when the grid is up. I'd just replace the set on your next trip. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/1/2016 2:00 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: Wrenches You can do a carbon pile test but the best way is testing under several conditions. Here is an option real easy and maybe faster, put a volt meter on each battery under constant charge conditions, higher volts on one battery meens high resistance in battery, low volts meens low resistance, either extreme can be an issue. Then let sit for at least an hour with no load and check the volts, next put a fixed load on the system, again a volt meter check each battery, here you may find a lower reading then the rest, there is the problem, now replace the entire bank not just the single battery. This is an easy test and the customer can see it easily too. Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S(tm) III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Gary Bassett Date:09/01/2016 2:51 AM (GMT-10:00) To: "RE-wrenches (re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org)" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries We have a grid tied battery backup system that uses 8 Sun Xtender PVX-2120L batteries, about 9 years old. The grid has been going out frequently - about 4 times in the past 3 weeks. When the grid goes out, the battery voltage gets too low and shuts the system down pretty quickly. One of the times, this happened within 4 hours. We want to test the capacity of the batteries and we have a testing procedure from Concorde that seems like it would take a lot of time. Is there a quick way to test the battery capacity? Gary _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5333 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Sep 2 14:21:47 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 12:21:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Hi Tom, Will you share the failures you had with the testing you did? How long ago was the test? It looks to me like Rolls Battery has chosen FullRiver as their OEM supplier for AGM batteries. I’m very sure they tested extensively and choose carefully. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 2, 2016, at 10:40 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: Gary A number of years ago I designed the back-up system for the Washington DC Metro System communications in conjunction with Apollo Solar. After extensive testing of both the Concorde and Full River brand batteries. We chose Concorde SunXtender because of failures in the Full River during testing. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Fri Sep 2 15:33:47 2016 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 12:33:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undersize wire on REC meter lug Message-ID: wondering if anyone has a simple lug solution for a problem i found my self in. with out looking I used a meter socket for a REC meter that is not rated for #12 AWG wire. it is on a 20 breaker but wire size is too small for the lugs. Is there a simple Lug solution that will pass muster or do I need to up size wire or swap out the meter socket? problem with up sizing the wire is we ran 1/2 conduit so we can only go up to #10. without overfilling or replacing the conduit run. Hoping there is experience out there that can point me to a simple solution. Thanks Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 16:24:28 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 10:24:28 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undersize wire on REC meter lug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Daniel What is the minimum size the lug will except Jerry On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > wondering if anyone has a simple lug solution for a problem i found my > self in. > with out looking I used a meter socket for a REC meter that is not rated > for #12 AWG wire. it is on a 20 breaker but wire size is too small for the > lugs. Is there a simple Lug solution that will pass muster or do I need to > up size wire or swap out the meter socket? > > problem with up sizing the wire is we ran 1/2 conduit so we can only go up > to #10. without overfilling or replacing the conduit run. > Hoping there is experience out there that can point me to a simple > solution. > Thanks > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Fri Sep 2 16:34:17 2016 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 14:34:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undersize wire on REC meter lug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most 200A meter cans have a minimum wire size of #6. The Milbank K4977-EXT tap connector might do the trick to get you down to #12 if your utility will allow it: http://www.milbankworks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/TapConnectors_6-13_Web.pdf . I think that it will work without a wire under the main lug. We love the Milbank U5934XL , which accepts down to #12. It is our standard for residential REC meter cans. Cheers, Mark ---- Mark Westbrock| VP, Branch Manager | Employee Owner NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP™ Certified Technical Sales Professional NM EE98J Licensed Electrician 510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001 cell 575.640.2432 | office 575.524.2030 mw at PositiveEnergySolar.com www.PositiveEnergySolar.com On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Daniel > What is the minimum size the lug will except > Jerry > > On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Daniel Tittmann > wrote: > >> wondering if anyone has a simple lug solution for a problem i found my >> self in. >> with out looking I used a meter socket for a REC meter that is not rated >> for #12 AWG wire. it is on a 20 breaker but wire size is too small for the >> lugs. Is there a simple Lug solution that will pass muster or do I need to >> up size wire or swap out the meter socket? >> >> problem with up sizing the wire is we ran 1/2 conduit so we can only go >> up to #10. without overfilling or replacing the conduit run. >> Hoping there is experience out there that can point me to a simple >> solution. >> Thanks >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> CTO >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Sep 3 11:21:16 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2016 11:21:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undersize wire on REC meter lug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160903152119.7532110246@che.dreamhost.com> There are different approaches available. An easy way to create a good fit that is electrically and mechanically effective is to fold the end of the stripped wire to give 2 or 3 thicknesses of the wire, and then crimp a copper barrel over the wire. This may or may or may not be acceptable to an AHJ, but it is quite safe and reliable. Another approach is to connect the ends of the #12 to a #6 using mechanical butt end connectors. Set screw type connectors accept a wide variety of wire sizes. If all else fails to satisfy local code requirements, put a J-box adjacent to the meter base, route the #12 wires to it and change to #6 to go to the lugs. Drake At 03:33 PM 9/2/2016, you wrote: >wondering if anyone has a simple lug solution >for a problem i found my self in. >with out looking I used a meter socket for a REC >meter that is not rated for #12 AWG wire.  it >is on a 20 breaker but wire size is too small >for the lugs. Is there a simple Lug solution >that will pass muster or do I need to up size >wire or swap out the meter socket? > >problem with up sizing the wire is we ran 1/2 >conduit so we can only go up to #10. without >overfilling or replacing the conduit run. >Hoping there is experience out there that can point me to a simple solution. >Thanks > >Daniel Tittmann >CTO >Greenwired >www.greenwired.com >daniel at greenwired.com >707-923-2001 (office) >707-206-5088 (Cell) >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Sat Sep 3 18:01:21 2016 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 18:01:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedures for Concorde Batteries are Message-ID: Full River private labels for a lot of Battery Companies . I have use a lot of their L-16 type 6 volt 415 Amp hour batteries in 48 volt systems with no problems . I usually use Full River as a battery for on grid systems when people want a backup OR in off grid systems when the owner will not or does not want to add distilled water . I prefer Rolls batterie IF they will get maintained , One time in Chile I had Full River batteries that were not maintained for 6 months And they came back fine . GatorTom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Tue Sep 6 10:31:43 2016 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:31:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Larry It looks like the UPG batteries come from the same Chinese factory as well. We’re hoping the Trojan Reliant work out well with their re-introduction Q1 2017. AGM batteries seem to be the most misunderstood (after Gels) I have noticed the failure rate is higher than wet, I assume most folks think VRLA means “don’t pay any attention at all.” Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [New-Logo-Solar-BiZ] E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Friday, September 02, 2016 1:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries Hi Tom, Will you share the failures you had with the testing you did? How long ago was the test? It looks to me like Rolls Battery has chosen FullRiver as their OEM supplier for AGM batteries. I’m very sure they tested extensively and choose carefully. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 2, 2016, at 10:40 AM, Tom Duffy > wrote: Gary A number of years ago I designed the back-up system for the Washington DC Metro System communications in conjunction with Apollo Solar. After extensive testing of both the Concorde and Full River brand batteries. We chose Concorde SunXtender because of failures in the Full River during testing. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5333 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Tue Sep 6 10:21:43 2016 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:21:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries In-Reply-To: References: <65345a2a-7b62-188e-f079-1a1401e6e0a0@solarray.com> <210FD92A-B4A7-4D8B-8723-6602D7262741@gmail.com> <0ADC600F-DF46-44AE-9449-2D645FF6C250@starlightsolar.com> <223a9cc1-3c4c-af91-e733-37042720de8e@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry John Pfeifer at Apollo Solar sponsored the testing and now John has disappeared from the solar scene altogether. I don’t have any contact info for him. BTW the Concordes have been working without a hitch for eight years now. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [New-Logo-Solar-BiZ] E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Friday, September 02, 2016 1:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Test procedure for Concorde batteries Hi Tom, Will you share the failures you had with the testing you did? How long ago was the test? It looks to me like Rolls Battery has chosen FullRiver as their OEM supplier for AGM batteries. I’m very sure they tested extensively and choose carefully. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 2, 2016, at 10:40 AM, Tom Duffy > wrote: Gary A number of years ago I designed the back-up system for the Washington DC Metro System communications in conjunction with Apollo Solar. After extensive testing of both the Concorde and Full River brand batteries. We chose Concorde SunXtender because of failures in the Full River during testing. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5333 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 14:32:16 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:32:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Better pic On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > To my fellow wrenches > It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass > any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will > fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box > it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 > strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was > completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. > Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. > Jerry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 302617 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Sep 6 14:44:42 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:44:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry, Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > Better pic > > >> On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: >> To my fellow wrenches >> It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. >> Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. >> Jerry >> > <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 14:47:49 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:47:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. Jerry On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: > Jerry, > Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, > and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting > even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > Better pic > > On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > >> To my fellow wrenches >> It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass >> any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will >> fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box >> it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 >> strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was >> completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. >> Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. >> Jerry >> > <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Sep 6 14:56:51 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:56:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Jerry, I see this on the AC side as well such as in this transfer switch. In all cases, I fault poor installation after examining how others are installed. I see your point but are you sure it is the product and not the installer? On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Better pic On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" > wrote: To my fellow wrenches It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2016-09-06 at 12.39.26 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 327163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2016-09-06 at 12.53.02 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 102178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Sep 6 15:01:45 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 13:01:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is removed. The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them in the first place. I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see > this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. > Jerry > > On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: > >> Jerry, >> Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, >> itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, >> inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Better pic >> >> On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: >> >>> To my fellow wrenches >>> It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass >>> any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will >>> fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box >>> it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 >>> strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was >>> completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. >>> Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. >>> Jerry >>> >> <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Sep 6 15:06:59 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:06:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5944bd96-0dd2-a6bc-3eb3-3378dd74e35b@midnitesolar.com> I see this in AC connections too because of corrosion. Corrosion will cause high resistance and I'm sure it can cause big issues in DC. I would think that applying some of that silicone grease for electrical connections can help ? boB On 9/6/2016 11:56 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Hello Jerry, > > I see this on the AC side as well such as in this transfer switch. In > all cases, I fault poor installation after examining how others are > installed. I see your point but are you sure it is the product and not > the installer? > > > > > > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > Better pic > > > On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" > wrote: > > To my fellow wrenches > It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or > pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts > are they will fail, this connection was just six years and when l > opened the junction box it was glowing and by the looks of it has > for some time. There are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % > failure rate (the other one was completely distroyed) not to > mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. > Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. > Jerry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 327163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 102178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 15:07:34 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar .) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:07:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also concurr, NEVER use wire nuts on the roof, I've personally installed them, and come back 3-4 years later, and found them melted. Wire nuts are simply for insulating a splice, not to be counted on for the mechanical connection. I make my guys twist solid wire together before installing a wire nut. Solid to stranded is tougher, but can be done correctly. Mike On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, > first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed > down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if > the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was > a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, > which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. > > Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to > twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I > suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a > solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is > removed. > > The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the > instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them > in the first place. > > I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially > considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial > jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance > companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see >> this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. >> Jerry >> >> On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: >> >>> Jerry, >>> Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, >>> itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, >>> inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) >>> >>> Benn Kilburn >>> SkyFire Energy Inc. >>> 780-906-7807 >>> >>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches >>> Better pic >>> >>> On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: >>> >>>> To my fellow wrenches >>>> It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass >>>> any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will >>>> fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box >>>> it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 >>>> strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was >>>> completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. >>>> Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. >>>> Jerry >>>> >>> <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Michael & Jessica Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 *We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper waste*** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Sep 6 15:14:43 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:14:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160906191452.B3B2C10202@che.dreamhost.com> Be aware that SMA explicitly prohibits the use of wire nuts in their installation instructions on the DC input circuits. -----Original Message----- From: "Jerry Shafer" Sent: ‎9/‎6/‎2016 14:32 To: "RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts Wrenches Better pic On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > To my fellow wrenches > It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass > any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will > fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box > it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 > strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was > completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. > Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. > Jerry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Sep 6 15:19:00 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:19:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> Are those wire nuts listed for wet locations? Most ideal outdoor (damp/wet) rated wire nuts are blue or grey in my experience. August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:02 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is removed. The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them in the first place. I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] *WE HAVE MOVED!** Please note our new address above.* On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. Jerry On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: Jerry, Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Better pic On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: To my fellow wrenches It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. Jerry <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 15:19:14 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar .) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:19:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: <20160906191452.B3B2C10202@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160906191452.B3B2C10202@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Yes, wire nuts, and loose connections are a big issue in AC circuits as well. One of my most frequent troubleshooting calls is tracing out loose/burnt/arcing connections behind receptacles and switches. Usually caused by sloppy workmanship, or contractors being in a hurry. Mike On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Be aware that SMA explicitly prohibits the use of wire nuts in their > installation instructions on the DC input circuits. > ------------------------------ > From: Jerry Shafer > Sent: ‎9/‎6/‎2016 14:32 > To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > Wrenches > Better pic > > On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > >> To my fellow wrenches >> It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass >> any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will >> fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box >> it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 >> strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was >> completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. >> Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. >> Jerry >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Michael & Jessica Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 *We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper waste*** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 15:39:25 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:39:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: <20160906191452.B3B2C10202@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: The problem is that wire nuts are not intrinsically sound, a good connection depends on the skill of the craftsman. They are not legal under the British electrical code, where I did my training, wires need to be firmly held under a screw as in a terminal. The US would be better to get rid of these nasty devices. In Britain, you see these terminal strips used. As long as they stay dry, they last forever. http://my.rs-online.com/largeimages/R4649744-01.jpg On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, MDElectricSolar . wrote: > Yes, wire nuts, and loose connections are a big issue in AC circuits as > well. One of my most frequent troubleshooting calls is tracing out > loose/burnt/arcing connections behind receptacles and switches. Usually > caused by sloppy workmanship, or contractors being in a hurry. > Mike > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >> Be aware that SMA explicitly prohibits the use of wire nuts in their >> installation instructions on the DC input circuits. >> ------------------------------ >> From: Jerry Shafer >> Sent: ‎9/‎6/‎2016 14:32 >> To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts >> >> Wrenches >> Better pic >> >> On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: >> >>> To my fellow wrenches >>> It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass >>> any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will >>> fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box >>> it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 >>> strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was >>> completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. >>> Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. >>> Jerry >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Michael & Jessica Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-884-1862 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > *We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper waste*** > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 6 16:25:14 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:25:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I was just called last week to a three phase Enphase system installed by others with three of eight strings that were exhibiting erratic voltages on random phases. First I checked the combiner panels and everything checked out. I went to the roof and discovered that wet rated wire nuts were used (red). The first of eight j-boxes that I opened, I just pushed a wire a little and heard crackling sounds. I didn't have to go any further... bad connections. Problem identified. So the question remains... what ARE you using? There is a recent thread about fine stranded wire and Polaris taps not being acceptable. There are also people using Alumiconn and Polaris black connectors, which are not rated for wet/damp locations. This all ties in together in terms of best practices in roof junction/transition boxes. ​Jason Szumlanski​ On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, August Goers wrote: > Are those wire nuts listed for wet locations? Most ideal outdoor > (damp/wet) rated wire nuts are blue or grey in my experience. > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:02 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > > > The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, > first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed > down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if > the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was > a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, > which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. > > Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to > twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I > suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a > solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is > removed. > > The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the > instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them > in the first place. > > I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially > considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial > jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance > companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? > > > *Benn Kilburn * > > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > *WE HAVE MOVED!** Please note our new address above.* > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see > this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. > Jerry > > > > On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: > > Jerry, > > Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, > and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting > even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) > > Benn Kilburn > > SkyFire Energy Inc. > > 780-906-7807 > > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > Better pic > > > > On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > > To my fellow wrenches > It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass > any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will > fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box > it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 > strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was > completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. > Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. > Jerry > > <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 16:32:00 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar .) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 13:32:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Again, I am using Buchannon copper crimp sleeves, with a Buchannon crimper, never seen one NOT work or go BAD. This is the best connection I have seen. I've never had an inspector open up my rooftop j-box/combiner box and ask about the listing of my connectors, but as a solar business owner who's reputation rests on good installation practice, this is the best connection, and it lasts long term, especially when you fill the crimp cap with anti-oxidant compound, before you install the cap. Mike On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I was just called last week to a three phase Enphase system installed by > others with three of eight strings that were exhibiting erratic voltages on > random phases. First I checked the combiner panels and everything checked > out. I went to the roof and discovered that wet rated wire nuts were used > (red). The first of eight j-boxes that I opened, I just pushed a wire a > little and heard crackling sounds. I didn't have to go any further... bad > connections. Problem identified. > > So the question remains... what ARE you using? There is a recent thread > about fine stranded wire and Polaris taps not being acceptable. There are > also people using Alumiconn and Polaris black connectors, which are not > rated for wet/damp locations. This all ties in together in terms of best > practices in roof junction/transition boxes. > > > ​Jason Szumlanski​ > > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, August Goers wrote: > >> Are those wire nuts listed for wet locations? Most ideal outdoor >> (damp/wet) rated wire nuts are blue or grey in my experience. >> >> >> >> August >> >> Luminalt >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:02 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts >> >> >> >> The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, >> first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed >> down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if >> the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was >> a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, >> which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. >> >> Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to >> twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I >> suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a >> solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is >> removed. >> >> The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the >> instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them >> in the first place. >> >> I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, >> especially considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and >> commercial jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then >> insurance companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? >> >> >> *Benn Kilburn * >> >> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >> >> 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 >> >> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >> >> [image: email] [image: facebook] >> [image: twitter] >> [image: linkedin] >> >> >> >> [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] >> >> *WE HAVE MOVED!** Please note our new address above.* >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see >> this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. >> Jerry >> >> >> >> On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: >> >> Jerry, >> >> Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, >> itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, >> inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) >> >> Benn Kilburn >> >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> >> 780-906-7807 >> >> >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Better pic >> >> >> >> On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: >> >> To my fellow wrenches >> It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass >> any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will >> fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box >> it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 >> strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was >> completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. >> Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. >> Jerry >> >> <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Michael & Jessica Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 *We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper waste*** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Sep 6 17:38:53 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:38:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: <20160906191452.B3B2C10202@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: 1) I've used the Euro connectors you show for decades with good results. Not necessarily legal here, but I like them.... 2) Before bad mouthing the wire nuts, I've found installer error to almost always be the problem. In the installation pictured, the wire nuts are not outdoor rated, and they have obviously not been twisted enough. None of the wires leading into the connector show any twist. They need to be twisted until the wires wrap around themselves a couple of turns. I don't like wire nuts, but they are legal to use for DC, and only cause problems AC or DC when improperly installed. I think the real reason we see so many failures on DC is they are outdoors (more corrosion, hotter) and they are higher continuous amperage than most AC circuits see. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/6/2016 1:39 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > The problem is that wire nuts are not intrinsically sound, a good > connection depends on the skill of the craftsman. They are not legal > under the British electrical code, where I did my training, wires need > to be firmly held under a screw as in a terminal. The US would be > better to get rid of these nasty devices. > In Britain, you see these terminal strips used. As long as they stay > dry, they last forever. > http://my.rs-online.com/largeimages/R4649744-01.jpg > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, MDElectricSolar . > > wrote: > > Yes, wire nuts, and loose connections are a big issue in AC > circuits as well. One of my most frequent troubleshooting calls is > tracing out loose/burnt/arcing connections behind receptacles and > switches. Usually caused by sloppy workmanship, or contractors > being in a hurry. > Mike > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: > > Be aware that SMA explicitly prohibits the use of wire nuts in > their installation instructions on the DC input circuits. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Jerry Shafer > Sent: ‎9/‎6/‎2016 14:32 > To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > Wrenches > Better pic > > > On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" > > > wrote: > > To my fellow wrenches > It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, > approve or pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its > OK but the facts are they will fail, this connection was > just six years and when l opened the junction box it was > glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There > are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate > (the other one was completely distroyed) not to mention > the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. > Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. > Jerry > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Michael & Jessica Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-884-1862 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > *_We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper > waste**_* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Sep 6 17:55:47 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:55:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> We’re using ideal/Buchanan splice cap crimp connectors as I’ve posted here a couple of times: http://www.idealind.com/ideal-electrical/us/en/products/wire-termination/60-crimp-connectors/copper-splice-cap-crimp-connectors.aspx We really like these in nearly every way. I just spoke with Ideal on the phone to verify their listing for damp/wet locations. They gave me a verbal okay to use them in outdoor boxes, but don’t have any documentation providing a specific listing for this purpose. This puts us in a bind, but they still seem like the least of all evils. It looks from Jerry’s picture that the box got wet inside. You can see signs of dirty water intrusion towards the back of the box and the wires look they were once muddy as well. The outdoor rated wire nuts that are pre-packed with grease likely would have been okay in a very wet box provided they were assembled properly. We are putting weep holes in our boxes and conduit bodies because we’ve had multiple issues with water flooding boxes and conduits. Dirty conductive water and 600 VDC don’t mix well. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 1:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts I was just called last week to a three phase Enphase system installed by others with three of eight strings that were exhibiting erratic voltages on random phases. First I checked the combiner panels and everything checked out. I went to the roof and discovered that wet rated wire nuts were used (red). The first of eight j-boxes that I opened, I just pushed a wire a little and heard crackling sounds. I didn't have to go any further... bad connections. Problem identified. So the question remains... what ARE you using? There is a recent thread about fine stranded wire and Polaris taps not being acceptable. There are also people using Alumiconn and Polaris black connectors, which are not rated for wet/damp locations. This all ties in together in terms of best practices in roof junction/transition boxes. ​Jason Szumlanski​ On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, August Goers wrote: Are those wire nuts listed for wet locations? Most ideal outdoor (damp/wet) rated wire nuts are blue or grey in my experience. August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:02 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is removed. The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them in the first place. I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] *WE HAVE MOVED!** Please note our new address above.* On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. Jerry On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: Jerry, Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Better pic On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: To my fellow wrenches It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. Jerry <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Sep 6 19:21:31 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:21:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> August, et al, Do you have any issues with crimping the fine wires that are typically on a microinverter cable, to a coarse stranded or solid wire? Or, do you know if there is an issue with using these crimps with fine stranded wire? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Sep 6, 2016, at 3:55 PM, August Goers wrote: > > We’re using ideal/Buchanan splice cap crimp connectors as I’ve posted here a couple of times: > > http://www.idealind.com/ideal-electrical/us/en/products/wire-termination/60-crimp-connectors/copper-splice-cap-crimp-connectors.aspx > > We really like these in nearly every way. I just spoke with Ideal on the phone to verify their listing for damp/wet locations. They gave me a verbal okay to use them in outdoor boxes, but don’t have any documentation providing a specific listing for this purpose. This puts us in a bind, but they still seem like the least of all evils. > > It looks from Jerry’s picture that the box got wet inside. You can see signs of dirty water intrusion towards the back of the box and the wires look they were once muddy as well. The outdoor rated wire nuts that are pre-packed with grease likely would have been okay in a very wet box provided they were assembled properly. We are putting weep holes in our boxes and conduit bodies because we’ve had multiple issues with water flooding boxes and conduits. Dirty conductive water and 600 VDC don’t mix well. > > August > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 1:25 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > I was just called last week to a three phase Enphase system installed by others with three of eight strings that were exhibiting erratic voltages on random phases. First I checked the combiner panels and everything checked out. I went to the roof and discovered that wet rated wire nuts were used (red). The first of eight j-boxes that I opened, I just pushed a wire a little and heard crackling sounds. I didn't have to go any further... bad connections. Problem identified. > > So the question remains... what ARE you using? There is a recent thread about fine stranded wire and Polaris taps not being acceptable. There are also people using Alumiconn and Polaris black connectors, which are not rated for wet/damp locations. This all ties in together in terms of best practices in roof junction/transition boxes. > > > ​Jason Szumlanski​ > > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, August Goers wrote: > Are those wire nuts listed for wet locations? Most ideal outdoor (damp/wet) rated wire nuts are blue or grey in my experience. > > August > Luminalt > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. > > Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is removed. > > The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them in the first place. > > I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? > > Benn Kilburn > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. > Jerry > > > On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: > Jerry, > Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > Better pic > > > On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > To my fellow wrenches > It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. > Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. > Jerry > > <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 19:43:00 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:43:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback PS1 enclosures In-Reply-To: <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0C2E16CB-F09E-4119-9A63-FA794376E0C3@gmail.com> HI All, Anybody have any PS1 enclosures lying around they’d like to get rid of? Please let me know thanks jay Please respond off list From ericstev at vermontel.net Tue Sep 6 19:45:00 2016 From: ericstev at vermontel.net (ericstev at vermontel.net) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 19:45:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches, Wire Nuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, I would like to concur with Mike from MDElectricSolar. My rooftop junctions always use Buchanan copper sleeves crimped with the Buchanan C-24 crimp pliers. After twisting the stripped ends together to a length exceeding the sleeve length I apply No-Ox-ID A Special grease to the twist prior to sliding on the sleeve. Then crimp the sleeve with the C-24 pliers which drives the grease into the wire strands. Trim the wire strands at the end of the sleeve and then snap on the insulating cap. I have confidence in this joint. Crimp sleeves are now made by Ideal and the C-24 pliers can be found on eBay. Eric Stevens, Vermont Made Energy > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 13:32:00 -0700 > From: "MDElectricSolar ." > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Again, I am using Buchannon copper crimp sleeves, with a Buchannon crimper, > never seen one NOT work or go BAD. This is the best connection I have seen. > I've never had an inspector open up my rooftop j-box/combiner box and ask > about the listing of my connectors, but as a solar business owner who's > reputation rests on good installation practice, this is the best > connection, and it lasts long term, especially when you fill the crimp cap > with anti-oxidant compound, before you install the cap. > Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 19:47:00 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar .) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:47:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Never had an issue, they crimp fine. But just like with any electrical work, you must pay attention all day long! Mike On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > August, et al, > Do you have any issues with crimping the fine wires that are typically on > a microinverter cable, to a coarse stranded or solid wire? > Or, do you know if there is an issue with using these crimps with fine > stranded wire? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 3:55 PM, August Goers wrote: > > We’re using ideal/Buchanan splice cap crimp connectors as I’ve posted here > a couple of times: > > > > http://www.idealind.com/ideal-electrical/us/en/products/ > wire-termination/60-crimp-connectors/copper-splice-cap- > crimp-connectors.aspx > > > > We really like these in nearly every way. I just spoke with Ideal on the > phone to verify their listing for damp/wet locations. They gave me a verbal > okay to use them in outdoor boxes, but don’t have any documentation > providing a specific listing for this purpose. This puts us in a bind, but > they still seem like the least of all evils. > > > > It looks from Jerry’s picture that the box got wet inside. You can see > signs of dirty water intrusion towards the back of the box and the wires > look they were once muddy as well. The outdoor rated wire nuts that are > pre-packed with grease likely would have been okay in a very wet box > provided they were assembled properly. We are putting weep holes in our > boxes and conduit bodies because we’ve had multiple issues with water > flooding boxes and conduits. Dirty conductive water and 600 VDC don’t mix > well. > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 1:25 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > > > I was just called last week to a three phase Enphase system installed by > others with three of eight strings that were exhibiting erratic voltages on > random phases. First I checked the combiner panels and everything checked > out. I went to the roof and discovered that wet rated wire nuts were used > (red). The first of eight j-boxes that I opened, I just pushed a wire a > little and heard crackling sounds. I didn't have to go any further... bad > connections. Problem identified. > > > > So the question remains... what ARE you using? There is a recent thread > about fine stranded wire and Polaris taps not being acceptable. There are > also people using Alumiconn and Polaris black connectors, which are not > rated for wet/damp locations. This all ties in together in terms of best > practices in roof junction/transition boxes. > > > > > > ​Jason Szumlanski​ > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Are those wire nuts listed for wet locations? Most ideal outdoor > (damp/wet) rated wire nuts are blue or grey in my experience. > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:02 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > > > The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, > first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed > down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if > the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was > a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, > which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. > > Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to > twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I > suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a > solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is > removed. > > The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the > instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them > in the first place. > > I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially > considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial > jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance > companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? > > > *Benn Kilburn * > > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > *WE HAVE MOVED!** Please note our new address above.* > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see > this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. > Jerry > > > > On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: > > Jerry, > > Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, > and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting > even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) > > Benn Kilburn > > SkyFire Energy Inc. > > 780-906-7807 > > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > Better pic > > > > On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > > To my fellow wrenches > It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass > any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will > fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box > it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 > strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was > completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. > Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. > Jerry > > <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Michael & Jessica Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 *We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper waste*** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Tue Sep 6 20:26:53 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 19:26:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Mike: Without doing a lot of research, I seem to recall what you are stating about using the Buchanan splices is true if the PV wire, micro-inverter trunk cable, or DC optimizer fine stranded wire is 19 strands or less. Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Engineering LLC Sent from my iPhone 5s > On Sep 6, 2016, at 6:47 PM, MDElectricSolar . wrote: > > Never had an issue, they crimp fine. But just like with any electrical work, you must pay attention all day long! > Mike > >> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> August, et al, >> Do you have any issues with crimping the fine wires that are typically on a microinverter cable, to a coarse stranded or solid wire? >> Or, do you know if there is an issue with using these crimps with fine stranded wire? >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 3:55 PM, August Goers wrote: >>> >>> We’re using ideal/Buchanan splice cap crimp connectors as I’ve posted here a couple of times: >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.idealind.com/ideal-electrical/us/en/products/wire-termination/60-crimp-connectors/copper-splice-cap-crimp-connectors.aspx >>> >>> >>> >>> We really like these in nearly every way. I just spoke with Ideal on the phone to verify their listing for damp/wet locations. They gave me a verbal okay to use them in outdoor boxes, but don’t have any documentation providing a specific listing for this purpose. This puts us in a bind, but they still seem like the least of all evils. >>> >>> >>> >>> It looks from Jerry’s picture that the box got wet inside. You can see signs of dirty water intrusion towards the back of the box and the wires look they were once muddy as well. The outdoor rated wire nuts that are pre-packed with grease likely would have been okay in a very wet box provided they were assembled properly. We are putting weep holes in our boxes and conduit bodies because we’ve had multiple issues with water flooding boxes and conduits. Dirty conductive water and 600 VDC don’t mix well. >>> >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 1:25 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts >>> >>> >>> >>> I was just called last week to a three phase Enphase system installed by others with three of eight strings that were exhibiting erratic voltages on random phases. First I checked the combiner panels and everything checked out. I went to the roof and discovered that wet rated wire nuts were used (red). The first of eight j-boxes that I opened, I just pushed a wire a little and heard crackling sounds. I didn't have to go any further... bad connections. Problem identified. >>> >>> >>> >>> So the question remains... what ARE you using? There is a recent thread about fine stranded wire and Polaris taps not being acceptable. There are also people using Alumiconn and Polaris black connectors, which are not rated for wet/damp locations. This all ties in together in terms of best practices in roof junction/transition boxes. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ​Jason Szumlanski​ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, August Goers wrote: >>> >>> Are those wire nuts listed for wet locations? Most ideal outdoor (damp/wet) rated wire nuts are blue or grey in my experience. >>> >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> Luminalt >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:02 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts >>> >>> >>> >>> The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. >>> >>> Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is removed. >>> >>> The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them in the first place. >>> >>> I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? >>> >>> >>> >>> Benn Kilburn >>> >>> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >>> >>> 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 >>> >>> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>> All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: >>> >>> Jerry, >>> >>> Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) >>> >>> Benn Kilburn >>> >>> SkyFire Energy Inc. >>> >>> 780-906-7807 >>> >>> >>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches >>> Better pic >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: >>> >>> To my fellow wrenches >>> It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. >>> Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. >>> Jerry >>> >>> <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Michael & Jessica Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-884-1862 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper waste** > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Sep 6 20:21:18 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:21:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <20160907002129.A6B2A105E4@che.dreamhost.com> Do you mean beyond the NEC listing violation? -----Original Message----- From: "Benn Kilburn" Sent: ‎9/‎6/‎2016 19:21 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts August, et al, Do you have any issues with crimping the fine wires that are typically on a microinverter cable, to a coarse stranded or solid wire? Or, do you know if there is an issue with using these crimps with fine stranded wire? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Sep 6, 2016, at 3:55 PM, August Goers wrote: > > We’re using ideal/Buchanan splice cap crimp connectors as I’ve posted here a couple of times: > > http://www.idealind.com/ideal-electrical/us/en/products/wire-termination/60-crimp-connectors/copper-splice-cap-crimp-connectors.aspx > > We really like these in nearly every way. I just spoke with Ideal on the phone to verify their listing for damp/wet locations. They gave me a verbal okay to use them in outdoor boxes, but don’t have any documentation providing a specific listing for this purpose. This puts us in a bind, but they still seem like the least of all evils. > > It looks from Jerry’s picture that the box got wet inside. You can see signs of dirty water intrusion towards the back of the box and the wires look they were once muddy as well. The outdoor rated wire nuts that are pre-packed with grease likely would have been okay in a very wet box provided they were assembled properly. We are putting weep holes in our boxes and conduit bodies because we’ve had multiple issues with water flooding boxes and conduits. Dirty conductive water and 600 VDC don’t mix well. > > August > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 1:25 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > I was just called last week to a three phase Enphase system installed by others with three of eight strings that were exhibiting erratic voltages on random phases. First I checked the combiner panels and everything checked out. I went to the roof and discovered that wet rated wire nuts were used (red). The first of eight j-boxes that I opened, I just pushed a wire a little and heard crackling sounds. I didn't have to go any further... bad connections. Problem identified. > > So the question remains... what ARE you using? There is a recent thread about fine stranded wire and Polaris taps not being acceptable. There are also people using Alumiconn and Polaris black connectors, which are not rated for wet/damp locations. This all ties in together in terms of best practices in roof junction/transition boxes. > > > ​Jason Szumlanski​ > > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, August Goers wrote: > Are those wire nuts listed for wet locations? Most ideal outdoor (damp/wet) rated wire nuts are blue or grey in my experience. > > August > Luminalt > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. > > Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is removed. > > The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them in the first place. > > I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? > > Benn Kilburn > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. > Jerry > > > On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: > Jerry, > Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > Better pic > > > On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > To my fellow wrenches > It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. > Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. > Jerry > > <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 22:45:22 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 19:45:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: <20160907002129.A6B2A105E4@che.dreamhost.com> References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> <20160907002129.A6B2A105E4@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Sometimes the code is wrong......, Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 6, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Do you mean beyond the NEC listing violation? > From: Benn Kilburn > Sent: ‎9/‎6/‎2016 19:21 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts > > August, et al, > Do you have any issues with crimping the fine wires that are typically on a microinverter cable, to a coarse stranded or solid wire? > Or, do you know if there is an issue with using these crimps with fine stranded wire? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 3:55 PM, August Goers wrote: >> > > [The entire original message is not included.] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 01:04:12 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 22:04:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> <20160907002129.A6B2A105E4@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <80336819-9960-486D-8B8C-974465CEF666@gmail.com> Rooftop/Combiner splicing is a perfect application for the use of splice capped crimp sleeves. The other is where splices are subject to vibration. Their usage seems to vary throughout the country. In NW Oregon, where I came up in the trade, it was protocol to use them in places like rooftop condenser units (intense ambient heat in the summer, extreme humidity, and vibration), packed with a bit of duct seal. Here in California, I never see them used. It will be thirty years ago, this coming week, when the instructor that taught the first class of my apprenticeship pulled out a bag of wire nuts and said “Your’e going to twist tens of thousands of these during your career, and that's tens of thousands of opportunities to burn a place down” He also said that he considered wire nuts to be one of the more dangerous things sold in hardware stores. It was really driven home, the importance of making every mundane and tedious splice as if someones life depended on it. At the time, it seemed a bit ridiculous how much time was spent going over the finer points of wire nut splicing in school, or having journeymen doing periodic spot checks and opening up boxes to inspect make up and splicing throughout the first year. Michael > On Sep 6, 2016, at 7:45 PM, Mike Nelson wrote: > > Sometimes the code is wrong......, > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: > >> Do you mean beyond the NEC listing violation? >> From: Benn Kilburn >> Sent: ‎9/‎6/‎2016 19:21 >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts >> >> August, et al, >> Do you have any issues with crimping the fine wires that are typically on a microinverter cable, to a coarse stranded or solid wire? >> Or, do you know if there is an issue with using these crimps with fine stranded wire? >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 3:55 PM, August Goers > wrote: >> >> >> [The entire original message is not included.] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Sep 7 12:05:44 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:05:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts In-Reply-To: <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> <32AC8B05-D85B-409E-85FD-5EA740D9AFC7@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <06e942b3ef21626f1e1abb881fe3a1db@mail.gmail.com> For fine stranded conductors we crimp ferrules over the fine stranded wires. The, the splice cap crimp goes over this and the other standard stranded wires. Works like a charm. Here is a example ferrule for 12 AWG: http://www.ferrulesdirect.com/terminal/UNFERR/N40012.htm As mentioned, there have been posts about this issue before on the list. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 4:22 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts August, et al, Do you have any issues with crimping the fine wires that are typically on a microinverter cable, to a coarse stranded or solid wire? Or, do you know if there is an issue with using these crimps with fine stranded wire? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Sep 6, 2016, at 3:55 PM, August Goers wrote: We’re using ideal/Buchanan splice cap crimp connectors as I’ve posted here a couple of times: http://www.idealind.com/ideal-electrical/us/en/products/wire-termination/60-crimp-connectors/copper-splice-cap-crimp-connectors.aspx We really like these in nearly every way. I just spoke with Ideal on the phone to verify their listing for damp/wet locations. They gave me a verbal okay to use them in outdoor boxes, but don’t have any documentation providing a specific listing for this purpose. This puts us in a bind, but they still seem like the least of all evils. It looks from Jerry’s picture that the box got wet inside. You can see signs of dirty water intrusion towards the back of the box and the wires look they were once muddy as well. The outdoor rated wire nuts that are pre-packed with grease likely would have been okay in a very wet box provided they were assembled properly. We are putting weep holes in our boxes and conduit bodies because we’ve had multiple issues with water flooding boxes and conduits. Dirty conductive water and 600 VDC don’t mix well. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 1:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts I was just called last week to a three phase Enphase system installed by others with three of eight strings that were exhibiting erratic voltages on random phases. First I checked the combiner panels and everything checked out. I went to the roof and discovered that wet rated wire nuts were used (red). The first of eight j-boxes that I opened, I just pushed a wire a little and heard crackling sounds. I didn't have to go any further... bad connections. Problem identified. So the question remains... what ARE you using? There is a recent thread about fine stranded wire and Polaris taps not being acceptable. There are also people using Alumiconn and Polaris black connectors, which are not rated for wet/damp locations. This all ties in together in terms of best practices in roof junction/transition boxes. ​Jason Szumlanski​ On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:19 PM, August Goers wrote: Are those wire nuts listed for wet locations? Most ideal outdoor (damp/wet) rated wire nuts are blue or grey in my experience. August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:02 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire nuts The reason i'm asking is that the only time i have seen a short, first-hand, in a wire nut, was because it appeared that one wire was pushed down rather than binding with the other wire, which would have happened if the wires were not held tightly when the nut was twisted on. Also, it was a stranded wire (that was pushed down) being connected to a solid wire, which is acceptable, but care must be taken to do it properly. Also, on all the Ideal wire nut packages I have, the instructions say to twist the wire nut on until there are two visible twists in the wire. I suppose this is to ensure the twist/connection is sufficient to make a solid connection and perhaps to keep the wires together if the wire nut is removed. The ones in this photo do not look like they were installed as per the instructions, which brings how much attention was put in to installing them in the first place. I've always questioned the why wire nuts are cautioned against, especially considering how many wire nuts are used in residential and commercial jobs. I'm sure if there was a legit issue with them then insurance companies would insist they not be used, such as aluminum wiring? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] *WE HAVE MOVED!** Please note our new address above.* On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: All the other nuts are tight so l cant not say it was or not but l see this alot and this was one that was caught just at the right time. Jerry On Sep 6, 2016 8:44 AM, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: Jerry, Can you confirm that this was caused by a failure of the wire nut, itself, and not due to user error (not properly stripping enough jacket, inserting even length wires and sufficiently twisting on the wire nut) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Better pic On Sep 5, 2016 4:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: To my fellow wrenches It comes up every so often and with DC, I will not use, approve or pass any wire nuts on any DC side. Some say its OK but the facts are they will fail, this connection was just six years and when l opened the junction box it was glowing and by the looks of it has for some time. There are 8 strings 2 per string and thats a 12.5 % failure rate (the other one was completely distroyed) not to mention the fire hazard in a PVC junction box. Please pass this along and tell everyone to stop using these. Jerry <2016-09-06 08.29.40.jpg> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Sep 7 14:31:08 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 13:31:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with dump load? Message-ID: REWs, I have a client that asked me if i can install a battery free grid tied system and have a dump load activate when it is overproducing. I am at a loss, here. Anyone have ideas? A CT on the line side that would activate a relay while current is flowing to the utility? Thanks, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Wed Sep 7 15:54:41 2016 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:54:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with dump load? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a901d20941$ac78ae40$056a0ac0$@dovetailsolar.com> SolarEdge inverters have an export control function if you install an external meter to them. They can be programmed to prevent any net energy export, or to limit that export to a specific amount (if you had a large system with a relatively smaller utility transformer for example). Here is a link to their system: http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/export_limitation_application_note_NA.pdf It would limit export power in real time, not energy over time, so if the dump load is to prevent a net monthly export of kWh… then I have no clue. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 2:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with dump load? REWs, I have a client that asked me if i can install a battery free grid tied system and have a dump load activate when it is overproducing. I am at a loss, here. Anyone have ideas? A CT on the line side that would activate a relay while current is flowing to the utility? Thanks, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 16:04:36 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 13:04:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with dump load? In-Reply-To: <00a901d20941$ac78ae40$056a0ac0$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <00a901d20941$ac78ae40$056a0ac0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <5589F9C2-91CF-4829-8443-0F36CB6AAEFA@gmail.com> Seems like a very unnecessary complication, The grid is the dump load. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 7, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Daniel Young wrote: > > SolarEdge inverters have an export control function if you install an external meter to them. They can be programmed to prevent any net energy export, or to limit that export to a specific amount (if you had a large system with a relatively smaller utility transformer for example). > > Here is a link to their system: http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/export_limitation_application_note_NA.pdf > > It would limit export power in real time, not energy over time, so if the dump load is to prevent a net monthly export of kWh… then I have no clue. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 2:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with dump load? > > REWs, > > I have a client that asked me if i can install a battery free grid tied system and have a dump load activate when it is overproducing. I am at a loss, here. Anyone have ideas? A CT on the line side that would activate a relay while current is flowing to the utility? > > Thanks, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Wed Sep 7 17:45:32 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:45:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly Message-ID: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Wrenches, One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before where the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection every few seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the community. We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The array is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is simple, all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the proximity of the Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" LFMC before entering the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was also in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter but we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, 274) indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup is almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds of run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the identical system next door works fine. In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four homerun wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested fine so he connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The technician verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new homeruns back through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He had the same error as before. He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the string fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With string one in conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but not both) the inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but string one outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate. I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so I went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns have been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. Thanks, Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From windsine at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 18:35:29 2016 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:35:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: Have you measured the current of each string simultaneously while the issue was happening? Have you verified correct polarity on each string? Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Sep 7, 2016 4:45 PM, "Matt Partymiller" wrote: > Wrenches, > > One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before where > the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection every few > seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the community. > > We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The array > is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is simple, > all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the proximity of the > Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" LFMC before entering > the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall > before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was also > in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. > > Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low > voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup > mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter but > we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, 274) > indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup is > almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds of > run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the > identical system next door works fine. > > In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four homerun > wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested fine so he > connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The technician > verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new homeruns back > through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He had the same > error as before. > > He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the string > fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With string one in > conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but not both) the > inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but string one outside > of conduit, the inverter does not operate. > > I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so I > went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every > module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns have > been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack the > technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely > grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. > > Thanks, > > Matt > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed Sep 7 18:41:53 2016 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 15:41:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with dump load? In-Reply-To: <5589F9C2-91CF-4829-8443-0F36CB6AAEFA@gmail.com> References: <00a901d20941$ac78ae40$056a0ac0$@dovetailsolar.com> <5589F9C2-91CF-4829-8443-0F36CB6AAEFA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160907224603.33A6F1033B@che.dreamhost.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Sep 7 18:57:34 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:57:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: References: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: Definitely check polarity on each string. Could be positives and negatives are mixed up and the wire colors are adding to the confusion. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Roy Rakobitsch *Sent:* Wednesday, September 07, 2016 3:35 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly Have you measured the current of each string simultaneously while the issue was happening? Have you verified correct polarity on each string? Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Sep 7, 2016 4:45 PM, "Matt Partymiller" wrote: Wrenches, One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before where the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection every few seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the community. We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The array is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is simple, all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the proximity of the Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" LFMC before entering the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was also in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter but we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, 274) indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup is almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds of run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the identical system next door works fine. In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four homerun wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested fine so he connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The technician verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new homeruns back through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He had the same error as before. He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the string fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With string one in conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but not both) the inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but string one outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate. I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so I went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns have been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. Thanks, Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 19:02:17 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 13:02:17 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: References: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: Maybe l missed it but is this a new installation or did it operate normally in the past Jerry On Sep 7, 2016 12:57 PM, "August Goers" wrote: > Definitely check polarity on each string. Could be positives and negatives > are mixed up and the wire colors are adding to the confusion. > > > > August > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Roy Rakobitsch > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 07, 2016 3:35 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun > Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly > > > > Have you measured the current of each string simultaneously while the > issue was happening? Have you verified correct polarity on each string? > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > > > > On Sep 7, 2016 4:45 PM, "Matt Partymiller" com> wrote: > > Wrenches, > > One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before where > the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection every few > seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the community. > > We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The array > is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is simple, > all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the proximity of the > Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" LFMC before entering > the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall > before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was also > in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. > > Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low > voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup > mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter but > we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, 274) > indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup is > almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds of > run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the > identical system next door works fine. > > In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four homerun > wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested fine so he > connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The technician > verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new homeruns back > through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He had the same > error as before. > > He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the string > fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With string one in > conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but not both) the > inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but string one outside > of conduit, the inverter does not operate. > > I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so I > went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every > module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns have > been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack the > technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely > grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. > > Thanks, > > Matt > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 20:42:47 2016 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 20:42:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with dump load? Message-ID: Greetings Kris, I am curious as to what the utility metering/accounting mechanism is in the territory serving your client; Net Energy Metering, Sell All, or ??? And what value is given/paid for excess kWh generation exported to the grid? What is the clients goal(s) in considering a grid-tie PV system? As utility interconnection rules, grid standards, and tariffs evolve we may all be dealing with these questions differently than we had before. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 20:48:25 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:48:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with dump load? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <556D5A3C-6295-48BB-B986-95382E3CCC3F@gmail.com> Hi Kris, yes I think you need to help us with greater information about what the reasons are, and the specific requirements. 1. instantaneous or monthly? 2. does it have to be listed and approved? 3. is this utility requirement or customers fancy? 4. anything else? thanks jay peltz power > On Sep 7, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > REWs, > > I have a client that asked me if i can install a battery free grid tied system and have a dump load activate when it is overproducing. I am at a loss, here. Anyone have ideas? A CT on the line side that would activate a relay while current is flowing to the utility? > > Thanks, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 20:58:28 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:58:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <2B6BBDFE-DE12-41C1-A8C9-1F0CDF56E7D1@gmail.com> hate to ask the obvious here, but you mean to say that volts and polarity are correct on both sets of wires at the inverter when not connected? and 2. what wattage modules are you using? jay peltz power > On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > > Wrenches, > > One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before where > the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection every few > seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the community. > > We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The array > is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is simple, > all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the proximity of the > Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" LFMC before entering > the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall > before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was also > in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. > > Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low > voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup > mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter but > we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, 274) > indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup is > almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds of > run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the > identical system next door works fine. > > In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four homerun > wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested fine so he > connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The technician > verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new homeruns back > through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He had the same > error as before. > > He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the string > fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With string one in > conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but not both) the > inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but string one outside > of conduit, the inverter does not operate. > > I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so I > went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every > module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns have > been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack the > technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely > grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. > > Thanks, > > Matt > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Wed Sep 7 21:55:22 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:55:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: <2B6BBDFE-DE12-41C1-A8C9-1F0CDF56E7D1@gmail.com> References: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <2B6BBDFE-DE12-41C1-A8C9-1F0CDF56E7D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all the questions and interest in my troubleshooting. The polarities are definitely correct. When testing wires at the inverter with the DC disco off and fuses pulled, we see correct voltage on each string. We have tried using two clamp meters to measure current on each string while operating the inverter with our homeruns in the conduit. Using the max function we never saw a meter get above about 1.5A (even less earlier in the day). String two seemed to be consistently lower but I really wasn't sure if that was an inverter function or not as it ramps up towards max power. With the homeruns outside of conduit the inverter operates fine and both strings show similar, but not identical, current. Doing the math it appeared each string was producing roughly half of inverter output at that time. To Jerry's question, the system did operate fine for about a week and 65 kWh. The inverter then failed. Our technician replaced that inverter with a new Solectria 3.8 kW unit, restarted the unit, and noted the problem. With Solectria's help he arrived at the idea that we had a faulty inverter, got a new one in, and noted the exact same error codes and began trying to troubleshoot. He left the third inverter installed and also installed a new Tigo Cloud Connect and Gateway for the Trinasmart system. The modules are 255 Trinasmarts with the integral Tigos. The folks at Tigo insist the issue is not theirs and, given that either string works fine by itself and both strings work fine when not in conduit, I tend to believe them. I just don't appreciate how having 20' of undamaged homerun wire in conduit as opposed to free air can make an inverter stop operating. Thanks, Matt On Wed, September 7, 2016 8:58 pm, jay wrote: > hate to ask the obvious here, but you mean to say that volts and polarity > are correct on both sets of wires at the inverter when not connected? > > and > > 2. what wattage modules are you using? > > > jay peltz power > > > > > > > > >> On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Matt Partymiller >> wrote: >> >> >> Wrenches, >> >> >> One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before >> where the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection >> every few seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the >> community. >> >> We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The >> array is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is >> simple, all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the >> proximity of the Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" >> LFMC before entering >> the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall >> before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was >> also in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. >> >> Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low >> voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup >> mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter >> but we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, >> 274) >> indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup >> is almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds >> of run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the >> identical system next door works fine. >> >> In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four >> homerun wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested >> fine so he connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The >> technician verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new >> homeruns back through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He >> had the same error as before. >> >> He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the >> string fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With >> string one in conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but >> not both) the inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but >> string one outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate. >> >> I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so >> I >> went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every >> module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns >> have been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack >> the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely >> grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> >> >> Matthew Partymiller >> Solar Energy Solutions LLC >> (877) 312-7456 >> matt at solar-energy-solutions.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >> html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Sep 7 22:16:12 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 19:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: References: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <2B6BBDFE-DE12-41C1-A8C9-1F0CDF56E7D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1473300972.959720601@email.finestplanet.com> im not sure why i am even suggesting this, but have you tried twisting the separate string's pairs before running them through the conduit? todd On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 6:55pm, "Matt Partymiller" said: > Thanks for all the questions and interest in my troubleshooting. > > The polarities are definitely correct. When testing wires at the inverter > with the DC disco off and fuses pulled, we see correct voltage on each > string. > > We have tried using two clamp meters to measure current on each string > while operating the inverter with our homeruns in the conduit. Using the > max function we never saw a meter get above about 1.5A (even less earlier > in the day). String two seemed to be consistently lower but I really > wasn't sure if that was an inverter function or not as it ramps up towards > max power. With the homeruns outside of conduit the inverter operates > fine and both strings show similar, but not identical, current. Doing the > math it appeared each string was producing roughly half of inverter output > at that time. > > To Jerry's question, the system did operate fine for about a week and 65 > kWh. The inverter then failed. Our technician replaced that inverter > with a new Solectria 3.8 kW unit, restarted the unit, and noted the > problem. With Solectria's help he arrived at the idea that we had a > faulty inverter, got a new one in, and noted the exact same error codes > and began trying to troubleshoot. He left the third inverter installed > and also installed a new Tigo Cloud Connect and Gateway for the Trinasmart > system. > > The modules are 255 Trinasmarts with the integral Tigos. The folks at > Tigo insist the issue is not theirs and, given that either string works > fine by itself and both strings work fine when not in conduit, I tend to > believe them. I just don't appreciate how having 20' of undamaged homerun > wire in conduit as opposed to free air can make an inverter stop > operating. > > Thanks, > > Matt > > > > On Wed, September 7, 2016 8:58 pm, jay wrote: > > hate to ask the obvious here, but you mean to say that volts and polarity > > are correct on both sets of wires at the inverter when not connected? > > > > and > > > > 2. what wattage modules are you using? > > > > > > jay peltz power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Matt Partymiller > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Wrenches, > >> > >> > >> One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before > >> where the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection > >> every few seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the > >> community. > >> > >> We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The > >> array is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is > >> simple, all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the > >> proximity of the Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" > >> LFMC before entering > >> the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall > >> before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was > >> also in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. > >> > >> Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low > >> voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup > >> mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter > >> but we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, > >> 274) > >> indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup > >> is almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds > >> of run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the > >> identical system next door works fine. > >> > >> In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four > >> homerun wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested > >> fine so he connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The > >> technician verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new > >> homeruns back through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He > >> had the same error as before. > >> > >> He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the > >> string fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With > >> string one in conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but > >> not both) the inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but > >> string one outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate. > >> > >> I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so > >> I > >> went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every > >> module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns > >> have been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack > >> the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely > >> grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> Matt > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Matthew Partymiller > >> Solar Energy Solutions LLC > >> (877) 312-7456 > >> matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. > >> html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > > ml > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Sep 7 22:20:07 2016 From: LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 02:20:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: <1473300972.959720601@email.finestplanet.com> References: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <2B6BBDFE-DE12-41C1-A8C9-1F0CDF56E7D1@gmail.com> , <1473300972.959720601@email.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I was thinking the same, done with battery cables to reduce inductance, Lloyd Sent from my iPhone On Sep 7, 2016, at 10:16 PM, "toddcory at finestplanet.com" > wrote: im not sure why i am even suggesting this, but have you tried twisting the separate string's pairs before running them through the conduit? todd On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 6:55pm, "Matt Partymiller" > said: > Thanks for all the questions and interest in my troubleshooting. > > The polarities are definitely correct. When testing wires at the inverter > with the DC disco off and fuses pulled, we see correct voltage on each > string. > > We have tried using two clamp meters to measure current on each string > while operating the inverter with our homeruns in the conduit. Using the > max function we never saw a meter get above about 1.5A (even less earlier > in the day). String two seemed to be consistently lower but I really > wasn't sure if that was an inverter function or not as it ramps up towards > max power. With the homeruns outside of conduit the inverter operates > fine and both strings show similar, but not identical, current. Doing the > math it appeared each string was producing roughly half of inverter output > at that time. > > To Jerry's question, the system did operate fine for about a week and 65 > kWh. The inverter then failed. Our technician replaced that inverter > with a new Solectria 3.8 kW unit, restarted the unit, and noted the > problem. With Solectria's help he arrived at the idea that we had a > faulty inverter, got a new one in, and noted the exact same error codes > and began trying to troubleshoot. He left the third inverter installed > and also installed a new Tigo Cloud Connect and Gateway for the Trinasmart > system. > > The modules are 255 Trinasmarts with the integral Tigos. The folks at > Tigo insist the issue is not theirs and, given that either string works > fine by itself and both strings work fine when not in conduit, I tend to > believe them. I just don't appreciate how having 20' of undamaged homerun > wire in conduit as opposed to free air can make an inverter stop > operating. > > Thanks, > > Matt > > > > On Wed, September 7, 2016 8:58 pm, jay wrote: > > hate to ask the obvious here, but you mean to say that volts and polarity > > are correct on both sets of wires at the inverter when not connected? > > > > and > > > > 2. what wattage modules are you using? > > > > > > jay peltz power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Matt Partymiller > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> Wrenches, > >> > >> > >> One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before > >> where the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection > >> every few seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the > >> community. > >> > >> We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The > >> array is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is > >> simple, all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the > >> proximity of the Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" > >> LFMC before entering > >> the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall > >> before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was > >> also in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. > >> > >> Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low > >> voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup > >> mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter > >> but we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, > >> 274) > >> indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup > >> is almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds > >> of run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the > >> identical system next door works fine. > >> > >> In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four > >> homerun wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested > >> fine so he connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The > >> technician verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new > >> homeruns back through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He > >> had the same error as before. > >> > >> He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the > >> string fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With > >> string one in conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but > >> not both) the inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but > >> string one outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate. > >> > >> I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so > >> I > >> went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every > >> module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns > >> have been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack > >> the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely > >> grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> Matt > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Matthew Partymiller > >> Solar Energy Solutions LLC > >> (877) 312-7456 > >> matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. > >> html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > > ml > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Sep 7 22:25:54 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown [Maverick Solar]) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:25:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <067b01d20978$53b82bf0$fb2883d0$@mavericksolar.com> "string two in conduit but string one outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate"... Maybe string two has a mild ground fault at the last module, positive side, or at its internal diode. ??? Basically why can't string two operate in the conduit? -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt Partymiller Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 4:46 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly Wrenches, One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before where the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection every few seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the community. We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The array is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is simple, all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the proximity of the Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" LFMC before entering the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was also in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter but we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, 274) indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup is almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds of run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the identical system next door works fine. In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four homerun wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested fine so he connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The technician verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new homeruns back through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He had the same error as before. He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the string fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With string one in conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but not both) the inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but string one outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate. I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so I went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns have been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. Thanks, Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From matthewsirum at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 23:33:38 2016 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 23:33:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly Message-ID: Greetings Matt, I like the troubleshooting thoughts others have given. If all else leaves you with the issue persisting I would also consider checking for current on the grounding system and on bonded conductive materials/items on the property. It may be helpful to see if there is any current on the Equipment Grounding Conductors, Grounding Electrode Conductor(s), metallic conduits & raceways, PV mounting system, and etc. If the inverter in this system has an AC Neutral connection intended only for instrumentation and L1 & L2 voltage reference it would be interesting to measure the actual current on it. It is good you have a similar system installed next door, you may need to compare test measurements and readings. If you run out of tests and troubleshooting ideas it may be helpful to open (turn off) all the circuits in the house/on the service and see how the PV system performs while being the only item connected to the service. The "smart" modules/optimizers may be making system troubleshooting more challenging. I wonder what Trina & Tigo has/can offer(ed) to assist with troubleshooting?... and if there is an approved/safe megger (insulation resistance) test for these modules? This is an interesting case. I'll be continuing to follow the thread. I hope we can all learn something from this. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:45:32 -0400 From: "Matt Partymiller" To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly Wrenches, One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before where the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection every few seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the community. We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The array is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is simple, all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the proximity of the Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" LFMC before entering the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was also in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter but we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, 274) indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup is almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds of run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the identical system next door works fine. In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four homerun wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested fine so he connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The technician verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new homeruns back through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He had the same error as before. He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the string fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With string one in conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but not both) the inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but string one outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate. I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so I went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns have been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. Thanks, Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 06:58:04 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 06:58:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie with dump load? In-Reply-To: <556D5A3C-6295-48BB-B986-95382E3CCC3F@gmail.com> References: <556D5A3C-6295-48BB-B986-95382E3CCC3F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I can weigh in here, having done this. The reason we do this is the utility puts in a meter that charges you for export (not everyone lives in the US). We have built a contactor based system that centers around a Raspberry Pi and an Egauge. We read the egauge over ethernet (JSON), determine the power consumption/export, and switch loads on and off. The loads can be water heaters, air conditioners, or any large load that does not have to be on continuously. In the one case I did this successfully, we had two 30KW systems, so we would switch one off when there was too much production, using a large contactor. We had to have the contactor anyway as there was a big generator that powered the facility in the event of a power outage. If the inverters had the ability to be ramped, I would have used that. Our next stage was to be Modbus control of the inverters, but we then moved to a Solar-Log based system, and here is the press release about that. The Solar-Log controls the inverters by Modbus and monitors the exported power, so you can achieve a near zero export, and I believe also can control dump loads if you can find anything useful to do with the excess power. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/solar-log-power-management-delivers-zero-grid-export-300096381.html It's easy to do with a Raspberry Pi, the hard part is to find a dump load large enough and flexible enough. On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 8:48 PM, jay wrote: > Hi Kris, > > yes I think you need to help us with greater information about what the > reasons are, and the specific requirements. > > 1. instantaneous or monthly? > 2. does it have to be listed and approved? > 3. is this utility requirement or customers fancy? > 4. anything else? > > thanks > jay > peltz power > > On Sep 7, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > > REWs, > > I have a client that asked me if i can install a battery free grid tied > system and have a dump load activate when it is overproducing. I am at a > loss, here. Anyone have ideas? A CT on the line side that would activate > a relay while current is flowing to the utility? > > Thanks, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Sep 8 09:30:25 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 09:30:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NiFe batteries Message-ID: I have a client that is interested in this type of battery and or the Aquin, both of which I have NO knowledge. Would like to use them w/ a SMA SI6048 OFF GRID 12-1400 Ah at 20hr rate capacity. batteries stored outside average winter time temp 25*F. Thoughts on their use /directions for supplier. Thanks in advance TUMP > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Sep 8 09:34:16 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 09:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] NiFe batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ad747bc31de644a025ee72b5f348221.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Check out Iron Edison batteries. They are pricey but well worth it for anyone in it for the long run. Specs below. I'll sell you them but you can likely buy directly from them if you set up an account. http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery > I have a client that is interested in this type of battery and or the > Aquin, both of which I have NO knowledge. Would like to use them w/ a SMA > SI6048 OFF GRID 12-1400 Ah at 20hr rate capacity. batteries stored outside > average winter time temp 25*F. Thoughts on their use /directions for > supplier. Thanks in advance TUMP > >> Tump at swnl.net >> >> www.SWNL.net >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 11:40:52 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 09:40:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Environ thermostat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Has anyone put in an Environ thermostat from Enphase? Are they still making these? Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Sep 8 13:00:09 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 11:00:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay Message-ID: Wrenches, We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the feeders to the house are underground. Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the house electrical panelboard. We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a manual reset. What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? Thanks, *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Sep 8 13:13:38 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 10:13:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: References: <157f1b5be89a32e7d07ade20e667c2a1.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <2B6BBDFE-DE12-41C1-A8C9-1F0CDF56E7D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Certainly seems like a stumper so far! I'd still check voltage and polarity with the strings through the conduit but not landed in the inverter. We've seen all kinds of mistakes where the negatives were mixed-up between strings, etc, causing strange behavior. Voltages can test fine when landed in inverters (even with fuses pulled) but exhibit different behavior when completely isolated. The fact that the system ran at first would lead us to believe that the wiring was done properly, however. It seems like the other suggestion of some sort of mild ground fault is a good path to follow. I also would highly question how those Tigo optimizers might be adding to the equation. You could also run the inverter with everything wired up and your volt meter on the DC inputs to see what is happening. The conduit factor here can only be causing ground issues or possibly some kind of inductance hokey pokey, but that seems unlikely. August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt Partymiller Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 6:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly Thanks for all the questions and interest in my troubleshooting. The polarities are definitely correct. When testing wires at the inverter with the DC disco off and fuses pulled, we see correct voltage on each string. We have tried using two clamp meters to measure current on each string while operating the inverter with our homeruns in the conduit. Using the max function we never saw a meter get above about 1.5A (even less earlier in the day). String two seemed to be consistently lower but I really wasn't sure if that was an inverter function or not as it ramps up towards max power. With the homeruns outside of conduit the inverter operates fine and both strings show similar, but not identical, current. Doing the math it appeared each string was producing roughly half of inverter output at that time. To Jerry's question, the system did operate fine for about a week and 65 kWh. The inverter then failed. Our technician replaced that inverter with a new Solectria 3.8 kW unit, restarted the unit, and noted the problem. With Solectria's help he arrived at the idea that we had a faulty inverter, got a new one in, and noted the exact same error codes and began trying to troubleshoot. He left the third inverter installed and also installed a new Tigo Cloud Connect and Gateway for the Trinasmart system. The modules are 255 Trinasmarts with the integral Tigos. The folks at Tigo insist the issue is not theirs and, given that either string works fine by itself and both strings work fine when not in conduit, I tend to believe them. I just don't appreciate how having 20' of undamaged homerun wire in conduit as opposed to free air can make an inverter stop operating. Thanks, Matt On Wed, September 7, 2016 8:58 pm, jay wrote: > hate to ask the obvious here, but you mean to say that volts and > polarity are correct on both sets of wires at the inverter when not connected? > > and > > 2. what wattage modules are you using? > > > jay peltz power > > > > > > > > >> On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Matt Partymiller >> wrote: >> >> >> Wrenches, >> >> >> One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before >> where the inverter switches between nighttime mode and >> interconnection every few seconds. I am hoping for some technical >> wisdom from the community. >> >> We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The >> array is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run >> is simple, all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the >> proximity of the Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" >> LFMC before entering >> the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the >> wall before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications >> wire was also in the conduit but has since been removed and run separately. >> >> Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low >> voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into >> startup mode again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new >> inverter but we have the exact same issue. They tell us their error >> codes (266, >> 274) >> indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and >> startup is almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, >> 5 seconds of run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid >> problem, the identical system next door works fine. >> >> In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four >> homerun wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested >> fine so he connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The >> technician verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new >> homeruns back through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. >> He had the same error as before. >> >> He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the >> string fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With >> string one in conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit >> (but not both) the inverter operates fine. With string two in >> conduit but string one outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate. >> >> I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring >> so I went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much >> every module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all >> homeruns have been remade at least once at this point. Now I am >> stumped and lack the technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I >> would be extremely grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide >> technical support/advice. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> >> >> Matthew Partymiller >> Solar Energy Solutions LLC >> (877) 312-7456 >> matt at solar-energy-solutions.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >> html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 18:57:01 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 12:57:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay Message-ID: <356yp6mqi0hafcbg8bs7aoi6.1473375420716@email.android.com> Wrenches Does not sound like there is an option to hard wire a shut down switch so here is an idea l have used. Program the genny to run at 58 Hz. not yp this will keep the inverters ftom starting up. None of the appliances will know but as long as the inverter programming does not allow for 58 Hz then it will work Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Benn Kilburn
Date:09/08/2016 7:00 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay
Wrenches, We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the feeders to the house are underground. Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the house electrical panelboard. We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a manual reset. What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? Thanks, Benn Kilburn CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Sep 8 19:17:30 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 17:17:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay In-Reply-To: <356yp6mqi0hafcbg8bs7aoi6.1473375420716@email.android.com> References: <356yp6mqi0hafcbg8bs7aoi6.1473375420716@email.android.com> Message-ID: <32B39317-EA82-4FA7-ACA8-AD49FDBBC1D0@skyfireenergy.com> Hey Jerry, Yeah, hard wiring would require quite a bit of trenching and wire. I was hoping someone would be familiar with a remote relay option or at least a manual reset relay that would include some sort of indicator for when it has shut off the inverters. Earlier today I was considering what you are suggesting. Seems like it should work. Anyone care to poke some holes in this theory? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Sep 8, 2016, at 4:57 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > > > Wrenches > Does not sound like there is an option to hard wire a shut down switch so here is an idea l have used. Program the genny to run at 58 Hz. not yp this will keep the inverters ftom starting up. None of the appliances will know but as long as the inverter programming does not allow for 58 Hz then it will work > Jerry > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Benn Kilburn > Date:09/08/2016 7:00 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay > > Wrenches, > We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. > > The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the feeders to the house are underground. > Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the house electrical panelboard. > > We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a manual reset. > > What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? > > Thanks, > > Benn Kilburn > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 19:22:47 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 19:22:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Generac Smart Management Module http://gens.lccdn.com/GeneracCorporate/media/Library/content/all-products/transfer-switches/residential-transfer-switches/0L1500-B-SMM-Module.pdf It will sense that the power is coming from a generator and open a contactor. You can adapt that to disconnect your solar resource. On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Wrenches, > We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system > that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. > > The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the feeders > to the house are underground. > Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the > house electrical panelboard. > > We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is > a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a > manual reset. > > What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? > > Thanks, > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 20:00:26 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:00:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel Message-ID: Hello wrenches, We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads. I've always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the critical load panel. Is there code violation for doing a splice in the main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel? You would be treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical loads. It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch packages with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do just that. Code references would be appreciated. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 8 20:13:04 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:13:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09b9f2b6-44cf-3698-fe84-6e82e0119287@solarray.com> Hi Mac; I'm not sure I understand how you would extend the wires without splicing. BTW you only need to extend the hots, not the neutrals or grounds. *NEC 312.8* sets a cross sectional area limit of 75% for the splices and wires inside an OCPD Enclosure. I just found these inline splices to use instead of the infamous wire nut: http://www.idealindustries.co.uk/product/12/557/67825/.html These should make for a cleaner install, and take less precious space, but I haven't tried them yet. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/8/2016 6:00 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel > adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads. > I've always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we > use) that we can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load > wiring to the critical load panel. Is there code violation for doing > a splice in the main panel and extending the leads to the critical > panel? You would be treating the service panel as a > pass-trough/splice box for those critical loads. > > It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch > packages with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to > do just that. > > Code references would be appreciated. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 20:22:05 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 20:22:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You have to splice the load cabling in the main panel, otherwise you would need to run new conduits and cables. There's nothing that I know of that prevents you splicing wires. I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral in another. On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel > adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads. I've > always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we > can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the > critical load panel. Is there code violation for doing a splice in the > main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel? You would be > treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical > loads. > > It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch packages > with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do just that. > > Code references would be appreciated. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 20:22:52 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:22:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: <09b9f2b6-44cf-3698-fe84-6e82e0119287@solarray.com> References: <09b9f2b6-44cf-3698-fe84-6e82e0119287@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, Sorry to be unclear, yes, in almost all cases it would involve a splice of some kind. My main issue is can you use a service panel as a pass through box. Thanks On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Mac; > > I'm not sure I understand how you would extend the wires without splicing. > BTW you only need to extend the hots, not the neutrals or grounds. > *NEC 312.8* sets a cross sectional area limit of 75% for the splices and > wires inside an OCPD Enclosure. > I just found these inline splices to use instead of the infamous wire > nut: http://www.idealindustries.co.uk/product/12/557/67825/.html > These should make for a cleaner install, and take less precious space, but > I haven't tried them yet. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 9/8/2016 6:00 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel > adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads. I've > always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we > can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the > critical load panel. Is there code violation for doing a splice in the > main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel? You would be > treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical > loads. > > It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch packages > with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do just that. > > Code references would be appreciated. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 8 20:43:30 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:43:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris; Its the same as a switch leg for a light. The neutral stays at the light, only the hot is run down to the switch and back. Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), there is no provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP. This is cleaner and involves much less splicing. Fewer connections is usually better in my book. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the > neutrals. You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel > and the neutral in another. > > > > > > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Thu Sep 8 20:45:45 2016 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matthew Sherald) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 20:45:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Generac offers a Smart Management Module. http://gens.lccdn.com/GeneracCorporate/media/Library/content/all-products/transfer-switches/residential-transfer-switches/0L1500-B-SMM-Module.pdf I used one of these at a grid-tie job where the customer was simultaneously having a Generac unit installed. The Generac installer turned me on to the device and it seemed to do the trick. It was a similar situation where the PV and GT inverter were at an outbuilding far removed from the main panel at the house. On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Wrenches, > We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system > that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. > > The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the feeders > to the house are underground. > Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the > house electrical panelboard. > > We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is > a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a > manual reset. > > What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? > > Thanks, > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Sep 8 20:54:13 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:54:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’m curious. If a critical load center is powered from an alternative source and the main panel is not energized, won’t all neutral conductors still be energized from the sub panel back feeding the main? Or is that OK? Larry On Sep 8, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Hi Chris; Its the same as a switch leg for a light. The neutral stays at the light, only the hot is run down to the switch and back. Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), there is no provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP. This is cleaner and involves much less splicing. Fewer connections is usually better in my book. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral in another. > > > > > > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Thu Sep 8 21:21:22 2016 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matthew Sherald) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 21:21:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got zapped on a neutral in a generac transfer switch that I thought was de-energized. Someone prior had moved hots from the transfer switch to the main panel, but not the neutrals. I was disassembling connections in the transfer switch as part of a move to a battery-backup system and I could not believe it when I got popped. The experience drove home the importance of terminating the phase and neutral in the same enclosure. On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > You have to splice the load cabling in the main panel, otherwise you would > need to run new conduits and cables. There's nothing that I know of that > prevents you splicing wires. > I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. > You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral > in another. > > On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hello wrenches, >> >> We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel >> adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads. I've >> always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we >> can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the >> critical load panel. Is there code violation for doing a splice in the >> main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel? You would be >> treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical >> loads. >> >> It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch >> packages with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do >> just that. >> >> Code references would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 21:31:05 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 21:31:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NiFe batteries In-Reply-To: <7ad747bc31de644a025ee72b5f348221.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <7ad747bc31de644a025ee72b5f348221.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: Tump, One concern with the Aquion batteries is that the recommended lowest ambient temperature is 40 degrees and they will freeze below 25 degrees F. I will be installing these batteries in an off grid system in October and I suggested that the temporary power shed (during construction of the house) should be insulated and a small propane heater installed to insure that they don't get too cold. One of my customers ordered NiFe batteries directly from China and held his breath for over 2 months wondering if he would ever see the batteries arrive. They are the same battery that Iron Edison sells as their economy line made in China. So far they are working fine. There are 40 batteries in one string connected to two VFX3648 inverters with 12KW Kohler generator and the solar is just 24 Evergreen ES-A 210's. I Installed the batteries for him (replacing 32 Interstate L16 batteries at their end of life), and found they were well made, easy to install (came with interconnect plates), and they appear to be working fine. I could get more info from the customer if you need it. Ask Iron Edison about their Chinese battery. John Blittersdorf Rob Stubbins Solar Rutland, VT On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 9:34 AM, wrote: > Check out Iron Edison batteries. They are pricey but well worth it for > anyone in it for the long run. Specs below. I'll sell you them but you can > likely buy directly from them if you set up an account. > > http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery > > > > > I have a client that is interested in this type of battery and or the > > Aquin, both of which I have NO knowledge. Would like to use them w/ a > SMA > > SI6048 OFF GRID 12-1400 Ah at 20hr rate capacity. batteries stored outside > > average winter time temp 25*F. Thoughts on their use /directions for > > supplier. Thanks in advance TUMP > > > >> Tump at swnl.net > >> Tump at swnl.net> > >> www.SWNL.net > >> //www.swnl.net/> > >> Solarwinds Northernlights > >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > >> Blair "TUMP" May > >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > >> > >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 21:33:29 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 21:33:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NiFe batteries In-Reply-To: References: <7ad747bc31de644a025ee72b5f348221.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 9:31 PM, John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Tump, > One concern with the Aquion batteries is that the recommended lowest > ambient temperature is 40 degrees and they will freeze below 25 degrees F. > I will be installing these batteries in an off grid system in October and I > suggested that the temporary power shed (during construction of the house) > should be insulated and a small propane heater installed to insure that > they don't get too cold. > > One of my customers ordered NiFe batteries directly from China and held > his breath for over 2 months wondering if he would ever see the batteries > arrive. They are the same battery that Iron Edison sells as their economy > line made in China. > So far they are working fine. There are 40 batteries in one string > connected to two VFX3648 inverters with 12KW Kohler generator and the solar > is just 24 Evergreen ES-A 210's. I Installed the batteries for him > (replacing 32 Interstate L16 batteries at their end of life), and found > they were well made, easy to install (came with interconnect plates), and > they appear to be working fine. I could get more info from the customer if > you need it. Ask Iron Edison about their Chinese battery. > > John Blittersdorf > Rob Stubbins Solar > Rutland, VT > > > On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 9:34 AM, wrote: > >> Check out Iron Edison batteries. They are pricey but well worth it for >> anyone in it for the long run. Specs below. I'll sell you them but you can >> likely buy directly from them if you set up an account. >> >> http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery >> >> >> >> > I have a client that is interested in this type of battery and or the >> > Aquin, both of which I have NO knowledge. Would like to use them w/ a >> SMA >> > SI6048 OFF GRID 12-1400 Ah at 20hr rate capacity. batteries stored outside >> > average winter time temp 25*F. Thoughts on their use /directions for >> > supplier. Thanks in advance TUMP >> > >> >> Tump at swnl.net >> >> > Tump at swnl.net> >> >> www.SWNL.net >> >> > //www.swnl.net/> >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> >> Blair "TUMP" May >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >> g/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Thu Sep 8 21:53:57 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 20:53:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay In-Reply-To: <32B39317-EA82-4FA7-ACA8-AD49FDBBC1D0@skyfireenergy.com> References: <356yp6mqi0hafcbg8bs7aoi6.1473375420716@email.android.com> <32B39317-EA82-4FA7-ACA8-AD49FDBBC1D0@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 02:17:04 2016 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 02:17:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay Message-ID: Greetings Benn, There may be another option which would avoid extra controls/devices. The point of interconnection of the inverter output circuits could be a supply side connection; the inverter outputs could be combined and interconnected between the service point/utility meter and the utility supply connection to the automatic transfer switch. This may be an installation option to consider if allowed in the jurisdiction where your project is located and if practical given the existing electrical work and nature of the site/building. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 11:00:09 -0600 From: Benn Kilburn To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay Wrenches, We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the feeders to the house are underground. Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the house electrical panelboard. We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a manual reset. What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? Thanks, *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 ? 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com From tump at swnl.net Fri Sep 9 06:11:21 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 06:11:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23D941FF-EC9C-43BC-874A-A267E876F4BE@swnl.net> Wire them to the utility side of the transfer switch, Auto restart and probably manufacture recommended method of connection when used in conjunction w/ gen set. T > On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Wrenches, > We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. > > The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the feeders to the house are underground. > Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the house electrical panelboard. > > We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a manual reset. > > What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? > > Thanks, > > Benn Kilburn > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 07:41:22 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 05:41:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay In-Reply-To: <23D941FF-EC9C-43BC-874A-A267E876F4BE@swnl.net> References: <23D941FF-EC9C-43BC-874A-A267E876F4BE@swnl.net> Message-ID: Hi Benn, I assume the transfer switch is not over by the generator. If that's the case, there are typically many ways to do it utilizing a contactors that senses the utility side of the transfer switch. You can also use the control signal that sends the signal to the generator to start. That is usually a 12V signal. Good luck On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Tump wrote: > Wire them to the utility side of the transfer switch, Auto restart and > probably manufacture recommended method of connection when used in > conjunction w/ gen set. T > > On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Wrenches, > We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system > that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. > > The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the feeders > to the house are underground. > Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the > house electrical panelboard. > > We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is > a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a > manual reset. > > What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? > > Thanks, > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Fri Sep 9 08:49:23 2016 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 06:49:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac, Our strictest local inspector allows us to do just what you are describing, per NEC 312.8. For the label described in 312.8(3), we make a custom label that reads: "Warning: This panel contains feed-through conductors. OCPD for these feed-through conductors are located ..." and then indicate physical location of new subpanel (e.g. directly below this panel, etc.). I hope that helps. Cheers, Mark ---- Mark Westbrock| VP, Branch Manager | Employee Owner NABCEP™ Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP™ Certified Technical Sales Professional NM EE98J Licensed Electrician 510 S. Main St., Las Cruces, NM 88001 cell 575.640.2432 | office 575.524.2030 mw at PositiveEnergySolar.com www.PositiveEnergySolar.com >> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hello wrenches, >>> >>> We run into many scenarios where we are locating a critical load panel >>> adjacent to an existing service to make it easy to move the loads. I've >>> always taken it for granted (as have the electricians that we use) that we >>> can't do a splice in the main panel and extend the load wiring to the >>> critical load panel. Is there code violation for doing a splice in the >>> main panel and extending the leads to the critical panel? You would be >>> treating the service panel as a pass-trough/splice box for those critical >>> loads. >>> >>> It makes me wonder because of all of the prewired transfer switch >>> packages with wire whips already attached that seem to be designed to do >>> just that. >>> >>> Code references would be appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 9 14:45:51 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 11:45:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ray, I’m intrigued by this. We’ve always gone off NEC 300.3(B): (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4). I interpret this to mean that we need to run neutrals along with any branch circuits we are moving over. Best, August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 5:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel Hi Chris; Its the same as a switch leg for a light. The neutral stays at the light, only the hot is run down to the switch and back. Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), there is no provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP. This is cleaner and involves much less splicing. Fewer connections is usually better in my book. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote: I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral in another. Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 10 03:46:05 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 01:46:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9783e1eb-d4f3-6f16-6dcd-5712401dfd47@solarray.com> Hi August; I'm glad you brought this up. When I first saw only the hots being brought to the Critical Load Panel, I thought it was wrong too, but then I recalled that this is similar to a switch leg. Does 300.3 forbid switch legs too? the exception in 404.2(A) allows switch legs, but does it apply here? I don't have a definitive answer in regard to 300.3, other than to note it has numerous exceptions. 300.3(B)(4) may also apply, and further, over current device enclosures and J boxes are not specifically mentioned either. To be clear, I am not the originator of this idea; I just copied this method from Reliance and Generac's wiring of their UL listed circuit transfer switches. I have used it since 2003, and never had an AHJ have an objection. I've discussed it with AHJs and electricians that specialize in generators, and this is common when retrofitting a backup generator. Also in response to the person that posted about having trouble with the neutrals: we have no neutrals at all in the CLP, if done this way. All neutrals land on the main neutral buss in the main panel. The CLP only has hots to the breakers, and the "neutral" bar in the CLP is used only as the equipment ground for the enclosure by adding the green bonding screw. To be clear, I would not use this method on new construction where the branch circuits could be brought straight to the CLP. This is for *retrofit only*. I also would not do this if the CLP and main panel were connected with a nipple longer than 24". Further, I over size the nipple and use PVC to reduce any possible inductive heating issues. For very short nipples, I have to use RMC, but I would never use EMT. This method helps keep the space requirements down to comply with 312.8(2), and keeps the wiring cleaner, fewer splices, and less over all disturbance to existing wiring in the sometimes aging and crowded main load center. The trade off is possible inductive heating of a short nipple caused only by lower current 120 vac circuits (the 240 vac hots cancel each other's inductance). Again, I'm not the AHJ, and I'm not the originator of this method. I'm just doing my best to describe a method used in the backup generator world that I've found helpful. The NEC and our work essentially is a compromise of numerous competing safety concerns. The code describes many wiring methods; its up to us to optimize each situation for overall safety. Here's a screen shot from the Reliance manual: R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/9/2016 12:45 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Ray, > > I’m intrigued by this. We’ve always gone off NEC 300.3(B): > > (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of > > the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor > > and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors > > shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary > > gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or > > cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with > > 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4). > > I interpret this to mean that we need to run neutrals along with any > branch circuits we are moving over. > > Best, > > August > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On Behalf Of Ray > Walters > > Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 5:44 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel > > Hi Chris; > > Its the same as a switch leg for a light. The neutral stays at the > light, only the hot is run down to the switch and back. > > Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), > there is no provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP. > > This is cleaner and involves much less splicing. Fewer connections is > usually better in my book. > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the > neutrals. You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel > and the neutral in another. > > Chris Mason > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ > > Solar Design Engineer > > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: khlejeopibpcegmm.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 129951 bytes Desc: not available URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Sat Sep 10 12:38:32 2016 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 09:38:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly Message-ID: <20160910093832.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.03907e2502.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Sep 11 11:57:46 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 11:57:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly In-Reply-To: <20160910093832.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.03907e2502 .wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20160910093832.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.03907e2502.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <20160911155750.1E1A5101AD@che.dreamhost.com> The maximizers sound like the most likely explanation to me. That being said, one point in the diagnosis that I would still do is to Megger test the wiring while the wiring is in the conduit. If I understood correctly, the wiring was tested while out of the conduit. This can miss the problem since a wire can fault against the wall of a conduit and find nothing to fault to when out of the pipe. At this point, I'd bet on the Tigo Maximizers being the most likely culprit. At 12:38 PM 9/10/2016, you wrote: >Yes this is an interesting case, as are the debug suggestions given. >The wire pairs working out of metal conduit point strongly at either >ground faulting or inductive coupling. You seem to have eliminated >the obvious wiring issues like polarity and grounding. Since you >have a working system next door and you are already putting in the >hard work of swapping inverters and wires, it is worth trying to >swap the inverter from that working system with the non-working one. >This would either indict or eliminate the inverter as the culprit. > >It is worth noting that the TrinaSmart modules with Tigo Maximizers >are quite capable of being the source of the problem. They attempt >to do MPPT at the module level, and can conflict with the inverter's >attempts at MPPT. We have had problems with other inverter brands to >the extent that power production was impaired, although not as bad >as your complete shutdown. It was necessary to use the inverter >setup options to shut off MPPT. If Solectria allows this it is worth trying. >Also I have had problems with Tigo Maximizers on mismatched strings >shutting down one string completely to "maximize" others. You may be >seeing the effect of communication problems from the maximizer >wireless controller. Try disabling them if possible by shutting down >their controller with its secret software. >I'm guessing that plain dumb modules with a plain dumb inverter >would not be suffering this shutdown problem. Something in your >system is too smart for your own good. > >Don Barch >Energy Solar > >-------- Original Message -------- > > >-----Original Message----- >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >On >Behalf Of Matt Partymiller >Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 4:46 PM >To: >re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference in >Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly > >Wrenches, > >One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before where >the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection every few >seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the community. > >We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The array >is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is simple, all >four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the proximity of the >Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" LFMC before entering the >inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the side of the wall before >hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed communications wire was also in the >conduit but has since been removed and run separately. > >Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low voltage >error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup mode again. >Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter but we have the >exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, 274) indicate 0 >volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup is almost >instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds of run, 5 >seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the identical >system next door works fine. > >In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four homerun >wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested fine so he >connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The technician >verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new homeruns back >through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He had the same error >as before. > >He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the string >fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With string one in >conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but not both) the >inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but string one outside >of conduit, the inverter does not operate. > >I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so I >went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every >module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns have >been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack the >technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely grateful >if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. > >Thanks, > >Matt > > > > >Matthew Partymiller >Solar Energy Solutions LLC >(877) 312-7456 >matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Sep 12 17:16:58 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 21:16:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW6848 inverter leaf blower problem load Message-ID: <4ebe205bac1f41808ebdb6d132c5f8b3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hello Wrenches, I Installed a 4 x XW+6848 system with 4,000 Ah UnigyII AGM battery bank in the spring. New building site, cycle charging with generator presently until next year for PV installation. Construction crew of ~15 has been running flawlessly off this system for 6 months with every kind of power tool. 3 buildings serviced from a centralized power shed. Homeowner adds a Black & Decker BV6000 leaf blower and problems arise. The blower starts fine, but most of the LED lights in the facility will flash on and off twice when the blower starts up. Not a flicker, but an off/on cycle about 1s each. This behavior extends to other buildings that might be 500' away. Works fine when running the generator in charge mode (therefore gen powering loads directly). Testing this same leaf blower on my own single XW6048 system, with LED lights, and cannot replicate the issue. Even a small 2kW mod sine inverter in my service truck runs it fine. I will put a call into Schneider but am not holding breath for help there. Any ideas? Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Sep 12 20:07:37 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 19:07:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW6848 inverter leaf blower problem load In-Reply-To: <4ebe205bac1f41808ebdb6d132c5f8b3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <4ebe205bac1f41808ebdb6d132c5f8b3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: The XW should be limited to 3 inverters. I've been there twice. I think the issue has to do with four of those inverter transformers in parallel creating a large Inductive load that gets owned by the inductive load of the reef blower. I guess you could add prescribed AC capacitor to the reef blower and the issue goes away. LEDs lights are likely large series strings of direct AC coupled voltage drop loads and any gap gets displayed. Thank you, Maverick > On Sep 12, 2016, at 4:16 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I Installed a 4 x XW+6848 system with 4,000 Ah UnigyII AGM battery bank in the spring. New building site, cycle charging with generator presently until next year for PV installation. > > Construction crew of ~15 has been running flawlessly off this system for 6 months with every kind of power tool. 3 buildings serviced from a centralized power shed. > > Homeowner adds a Black & Decker BV6000 leaf blower and problems arise. The blower starts fine, but most of the LED lights in the facility will flash on and off twice when the blower starts up. Not a flicker, but an off/on cycle about 1s each. This behavior extends to other buildings that might be 500' away. Works fine when running the generator in charge mode (therefore gen powering loads directly). > > Testing this same leaf blower on my own single XW6048 system, with LED lights, and cannot replicate the issue. Even a small 2kW mod sine inverter in my service truck runs it fine. > > I will put a call into Schneider but am not holding breath for help there. > > Any ideas? > > Kevin > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 13 11:40:06 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 10:40:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Restarting Enphase Inverters? Message-ID: <018f01d20dd5$1b4b4ac0$51e1e040$@sbcglobal.net> For those of you installing Enphase, is there a way for us to remotely restart or reset our customers' inverters? If so can you walk us through the steps? Thanks Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS 66502 785/539-1956 Office 785/564-2583 Cell wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Sep 13 13:44:20 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 10:44:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel In-Reply-To: <9783e1eb-d4f3-6f16-6dcd-5712401dfd47@solarray.com> References: <9783e1eb-d4f3-6f16-6dcd-5712401dfd47@solarray.com> Message-ID: <40bdc2d713ab7e70ab18daf31849d5c2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ray, I get your take on this. Certainly reviewing what manufacturers are recommending helps. Generac has a pre-wired transfer switch backup panel, but it is hard to tell from the literature what they are recommending we do with neutrals: http://www.generac.com/all-products/transfer-switches/home-backup It seems clear to me that 300.3(B) requires all conductors of the same circuit to be routed together if run in metallic raceway. Perhaps the exception in 300.3(B)(3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods would allow neutrals to stay back if you run your conductors in nonmetallic raceway or sheathing. NEC 210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits stipulates more requirements relating to grouping conductors. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Saturday, September 10, 2016 12:46 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel Hi August; I'm glad you brought this up. When I first saw only the hots being brought to the Critical Load Panel, I thought it was wrong too, but then I recalled that this is similar to a switch leg. Does 300.3 forbid switch legs too? the exception in 404.2(A) allows switch legs, but does it apply here? I don't have a definitive answer in regard to 300.3, other than to note it has numerous exceptions. 300.3(B)(4) may also apply, and further, over current device enclosures and J boxes are not specifically mentioned either. To be clear, I am not the originator of this idea; I just copied this method from Reliance and Generac's wiring of their UL listed circuit transfer switches. I have used it since 2003, and never had an AHJ have an objection. I've discussed it with AHJs and electricians that specialize in generators, and this is common when retrofitting a backup generator. Also in response to the person that posted about having trouble with the neutrals: we have no neutrals at all in the CLP, if done this way. All neutrals land on the main neutral buss in the main panel. The CLP only has hots to the breakers, and the "neutral" bar in the CLP is used only as the equipment ground for the enclosure by adding the green bonding screw. To be clear, I would not use this method on new construction where the branch circuits could be brought straight to the CLP. This is for *retrofit only*. I also would not do this if the CLP and main panel were connected with a nipple longer than 24". Further, I over size the nipple and use PVC to reduce any possible inductive heating issues. For very short nipples, I have to use RMC, but I would never use EMT. This method helps keep the space requirements down to comply with 312.8(2), and keeps the wiring cleaner, fewer splices, and less over all disturbance to existing wiring in the sometimes aging and crowded main load center. The trade off is possible inductive heating of a short nipple caused only by lower current 120 vac circuits (the 240 vac hots cancel each other's inductance). Again, I'm not the AHJ, and I'm not the originator of this method. I'm just doing my best to describe a method used in the backup generator world that I've found helpful. The NEC and our work essentially is a compromise of numerous competing safety concerns. The code describes many wiring methods; its up to us to optimize each situation for overall safety. Here's a screen shot from the Reliance manual: R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/9/2016 12:45 PM, August Goers wrote: Ray, I’m intrigued by this. We’ve always gone off NEC 300.3(B): (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4). I interpret this to mean that we need to run neutrals along with any branch circuits we are moving over. Best, August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 5:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel Hi Chris; Its the same as a switch leg for a light. The neutral stays at the light, only the hot is run down to the switch and back. Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), there is no provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP. This is cleaner and involves much less splicing. Fewer connections is usually better in my book. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote: I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral in another. Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 129951 bytes Desc: not available URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Sep 13 13:45:16 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 17:45:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW6848 inverter leaf blower problem load In-Reply-To: References: <4ebe205bac1f41808ebdb6d132c5f8b3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: I also have several quad XW stacks out there so am familiar with the challenges. As it happens, two of the inverters at this time are offline and breakers open, I should have specified that. So the system is actually working as a dual XW presently. During testing the master inverter was online and the slave in standby. As for battery cables, I have 2 pairs of 4/0, twisted, each feeding two inverters through a PDP. Customer reports they have a second leaf blower of another brand that works fine. I have suggested just replacing the problematic unit with one we know works, as chasing this down could eat up a lot of time. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: September-12-16 5:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW6848 inverter leaf blower problem load The XW should be limited to 3 inverters. I've been there twice. I think the issue has to do with four of those inverter transformers in parallel creating a large Inductive load that gets owned by the inductive load of the reef blower. I guess you could add prescribed AC capacitor to the reef blower and the issue goes away. LEDs lights are likely large series strings of direct AC coupled voltage drop loads and any gap gets displayed. Thank you, Maverick On Sep 12, 2016, at 4:16 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I Installed a 4 x XW+6848 system with 4,000 Ah UnigyII AGM battery bank in the spring. New building site, cycle charging with generator presently until next year for PV installation. Construction crew of ~15 has been running flawlessly off this system for 6 months with every kind of power tool. 3 buildings serviced from a centralized power shed. Homeowner adds a Black & Decker BV6000 leaf blower and problems arise. The blower starts fine, but most of the LED lights in the facility will flash on and off twice when the blower starts up. Not a flicker, but an off/on cycle about 1s each. This behavior extends to other buildings that might be 500' away. Works fine when running the generator in charge mode (therefore gen powering loads directly). Testing this same leaf blower on my own single XW6048 system, with LED lights, and cannot replicate the issue. Even a small 2kW mod sine inverter in my service truck runs it fine. I will put a call into Schneider but am not holding breath for help there. Any ideas? Kevin _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Sep 13 17:24:41 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 17:24:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 337 Message-ID: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, My old Fluke 337 is working intermittently, and it needs to be replaced. (An intermittently working meter seems like a deadly thing to keep around). It looks like the 337 was replaced by a 337A (now discontinued) which in turn was replaced by a Fluke 376. I am still able to find a 337 to buy. Is there any reason to get the 376 instead? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Sep 13 18:27:22 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:27:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 337 In-Reply-To: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <049C7819-71AD-48AD-90EE-7A06F79286A9@starlightsolar.com> Hey Drake, I’ve been using a 334 for many years. I recently looked at the 381 because of the wireless removable display. There have been many situations where the wire I’m clamped onto puts the display in a position that I can’t easily read it. Having a wireless display would be SO handy. Reading frequency through the jaw would also be handy. Larry On Sep 13, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, My old Fluke 337 is working intermittently, and it needs to be replaced. (An intermittently working meter seems like a deadly thing to keep around). It looks like the 337 was replaced by a 337A (now discontinued) which in turn was replaced by a Fluke 376. I am still able to find a 337 to buy. Is there any reason to get the 376 instead? Thanks, Drake <>Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 21:23:17 2016 From: rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 19:23:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters Message-ID: Esteemed wrenches, I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? Rebecca Lundberg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 20:06:09 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 17:06:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 337 In-Reply-To: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi Drake, You might look at the fluke connect series. Pretty interesting what they can do. Jay Peltz Power Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 13, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Drake wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > My old Fluke 337 is working intermittently, and it needs to be replaced. (An intermittently working meter seems like a deadly thing to keep around). > > It looks like the 337 was replaced by a 337A (now discontinued) which in turn was replaced by a Fluke 376. I am still able to find a 337 to buy. Is there any reason to get the 376 instead? > > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 14 00:01:16 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 22:01:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 337 In-Reply-To: References: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <919ee9a4-4613-f132-b045-8166c5f4b7ab@solarray.com> HI Drake; My old Fluke clamp on died last year, and some good Wrench here turned me on to the Seaward solar power clamp. It does everything the Fluke did, and offers some amazing power analysis too. It can do real time power readings that even account for power factor. It can break out THD into the separate harmonics, its got CAT III rating at 1000 v. Downside is it can be clunky to navigate, but its doing so much that some complications would be expected. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/13/2016 6:06 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Drake, > > You might look at the fluke connect series. Pretty interesting what > they can do. > > Jay > Peltz Power > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Drake > > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> My old Fluke 337 is working intermittently, and it needs to be >> replaced. (An intermittently working meter seems like a deadly thing >> to keep around). >> >> It looks like the 337 was replaced by a 337A (now discontinued) which >> in turn was replaced by a Fluke 376. I am still able to find a 337 to >> buy. Is there any reason to get the 376 instead? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> /Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> /http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Avast logo >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 21:44:13 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 18:44:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: > > Esteemed wrenches, > > I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. > > Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: > - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? > > - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? > > I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? > > Rebecca Lundberg > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 10:54:33 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 07:54:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D25D88F-D513-403C-B4ED-40A92E3D3436@gmail.com> Hi mike, question. Are you saying the corrosion has been the source of the failures? Is this wire connection or actually inside the micro? Jay Peltz power > On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Mike Nelson wrote: > > I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: >> >> Esteemed wrenches, >> >> I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. >> >> Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: >> - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? >> >> - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? >> >> I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? >> >> Rebecca Lundberg >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 11:35:45 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 08:35:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <4D25D88F-D513-403C-B4ED-40A92E3D3436@gmail.com> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> <4D25D88F-D513-403C-B4ED-40A92E3D3436@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2B0C13E6-3F24-4DAF-90F4-ED7B43F8A2F2@gmail.com> Inside the micros, stainless steel through bolt and aluminum case don't work well together and allow corrosion into the interior of the circuitry, right past the conformal coating. I've also seen them short circuit and blacken the back of the PV module directly above them, sounds like a firecracker exploding. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 14, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi mike, > > question. > Are you saying the corrosion has been the source of the failures? > Is this wire connection or actually inside the micro? > > Jay > Peltz power > >> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Mike Nelson wrote: >> >> I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: >>> >>> Esteemed wrenches, >>> >>> I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. >>> >>> Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: >>> - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? >>> >>> - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? >>> >>> I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? >>> >>> Rebecca Lundberg >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 12:32:36 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 06:32:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt issues. Jerry On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: > I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most > of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The > newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have > learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick > with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the > installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet > tried solar edge. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg > wrote: > > Esteemed wrenches, > > I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader > perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, > tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. > > Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated > issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: > - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go > back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting > better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent > years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you > also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models > holding up better? > > - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and > though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' > the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with > Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it > appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working > -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais > Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of > micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the > viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) > of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they > would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our > experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says > 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually > manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company > says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a > very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers > are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the > inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there > is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send > us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so > either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a > very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or > two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from > our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share > here? > > I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these > micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced > us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or > not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? > > Rebecca Lundberg > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Sep 14 13:04:24 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:04:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Colleagues: We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the cases swell up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them open to see what's inside because they need to go back to manufacturer. William > On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Mike > I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt issues. > Jerry > > >> On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: >> I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: >>> >>> Esteemed wrenches, >>> >>> I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. >>> >>> Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: >>> - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? >>> >>> - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? >>> >>> I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? >>> >>> Rebecca Lundberg >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 13:14:13 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 07:14:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up Jerry On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" wrote: > Colleagues: > > We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the cases swell > up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them open to see what's > inside because they need to go back to manufacturer. > > William > > On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Mike > I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had > the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with > 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt > issues. > Jerry > > On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: > >> I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install >> most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. >> The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have >> learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick >> with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the >> installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet >> tried solar edge. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg >> wrote: >> >> Esteemed wrenches, >> >> I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader >> perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, >> tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. >> >> Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated >> issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: >> - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go >> back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting >> better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent >> years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you >> also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models >> holding up better? >> >> - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and >> though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' >> the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with >> Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it >> appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working >> -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais >> Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of >> micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the >> viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) >> of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they >> would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our >> experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says >> 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually >> manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company >> says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a >> very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers >> are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the >> inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there >> is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send >> us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so >> either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a >> very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or >> two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from >> our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share >> here? >> >> I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these >> micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced >> us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or >> not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? >> >> Rebecca Lundberg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 13:21:54 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:21:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1CC4FFD3-5A85-4C13-8730-7F599268F4CC@gmail.com> I will look back and see if I have any pictures of excessively damaged microinverters. Like the others, we had to send them all back for dissection. The Enphase engineering team that I handled my cases and actually came out to do on site assessments told me the problems were due to corrosion intrusion. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Mike > I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt issues. > Jerry > > >> On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: >> I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: >>> >>> Esteemed wrenches, >>> >>> I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. >>> >>> Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: >>> - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? >>> >>> - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? >>> >>> I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? >>> >>> Rebecca Lundberg >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Sep 14 14:58:18 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 12:58:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> You guys should really cut one of those swelled up ones and share the photos with us :) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up > Jerry > > >> On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" wrote: >> Colleagues: >> >> We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the cases swell up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them open to see what's inside because they need to go back to manufacturer. >> >> William >> >>> On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>> Mike >>> I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt issues. >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: >>>> I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. >>>> >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. >>>>> >>>>> Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: >>>>> - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? >>>>> >>>>> - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? >>>>> >>>>> Rebecca Lundberg >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bzp at brick.net Wed Sep 14 15:24:53 2016 From: bzp at brick.net (frank -bz products) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 14:24:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> Re 190's. Not much to learn from dissecting a swollen 190. Most of the time the swelling is caused by electrolytic capacitors that have failed. Some very high current capacitors actually have brackets to bolt them down to minimize swelling. Frank BZP. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net On 9/14/2016 1:58 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > You guys should really cut one of those swelled up ones and share the > photos with us :) > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up >> Jerry >> >> >> On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" > > wrote: >> >> Colleagues: >> >> We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the >> cases swell up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them >> open to see what's inside because they need to go back to >> manufacturer. >> >> William >> >> On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer >> > wrote: >> >>> Mike >>> I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we >>> have had the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and >>> very few issues with 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage >>> as l have seen very little salt issues. >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. >>> We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion >>> has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are >>> holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over >>> the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly >>> stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or >>> really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them >>> occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Esteemed wrenches, >>>> >>>> I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a >>>> broader perspective on the current market performance and >>>> as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), >>>> from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. >>>> >>>> Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We >>>> have had repeated issues with several different brands on >>>> our systems in Minnesota: >>>> - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to >>>> repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new >>>> replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope >>>> they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, >>>> but we're happy they at least provide a predictable >>>> stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand >>>> of product? Are the newer models holding up better? >>>> >>>> - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try >>>> (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to >>>> take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS >>>> micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with >>>> Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of >>>> them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so >>>> the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from >>>> redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter >>>> Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of >>>> micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't >>>> research the viability of the product or company or >>>> warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter >>>> OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would >>>> provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, >>>> but our experience has been far from that. When something >>>> goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' >>>> because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter >>>> (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not >>>> our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a >>>> very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so >>>> both manufacturers are backing away from any >>>> responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar >>>> is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there >>>> is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe >>>> they will send us a new component that needs several hours >>>> of work to re-install, so either the installer does the >>>> warranty work for free or the customer has a very >>>> unexpected expense to get their system back up and running >>>> a year or two after it was installed; we think both >>>> scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective >>>> :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? >>>> >>>> I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. >>>> Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the >>>> Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on >>>> residential applications whether we want to or not -- is >>>> that pretty much what all of you are doing too? >>>> >>>> Rebecca Lundberg >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Sep 15 09:46:24 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 09:46:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> Message-ID: <20160915134628.DC35310A80@che.dreamhost.com> Is it the consensus that Enphase 215 inverters on are the most reliable micro inverters (even though the tech support may be lacking these days)? Someone on this list mentioned that the SMA micros had a rocky time of it. What were the problems with these? Do the SMA micro inverters taper charge when AC coupled with Sunny Islands? Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 03:24 PM 9/14/2016, you wrote: >Re 190's. > >Not much to learn from dissecting a swollen 190. Most of the time >the swelling is caused by electrolytic capacitors that have failed. >Some very high current capacitors actually have brackets to bolt >them down to minimize swelling. > >Frank BZP. > >BZ Products INC. >8801 Gravois Rd. >St.Louis MO 63123 USA >314-644-2490 >www.bz-products.netOn 9/14/2016 1:58 PM, >Benn Kilburn wrote: >>You guys should really cut one of those swelled up ones and share >>the photos with us :) >> >>Benn Kilburn >>SkyFire Energy Inc. >>780-906-7807 >> >>On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Jerry Shafer >><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up >>>Jerry >>> >>>On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" >>><william at millersolar.com> wrote: >>>Colleagues: >>> >>>We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the cases >>>swell up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them open to >>>see what's inside because they need to go back to manufacturer. >>> >>>William >>> >>>On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer >>><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>Mike >>>>I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we >>>>have had the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and >>>>very few issues with 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as >>>>l have seen very little salt issues. >>>>Jerry >>>> >>>>On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" >>>><mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We >>>>install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has >>>>played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much >>>>better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA >>>>makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes >>>>micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation >>>>particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. >>>> >>>>Michael D Nelson >>>>MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>707-684-0064 mobile >>>>707-884-1862 office >>>>www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg >>>><rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Esteemed wrenches, >>>>> >>>>>I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a >>>>>broader perspective on the current market performance and as a >>>>>secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar >>>>>micro-inverter manufacturers. >>>>> >>>>>Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had >>>>>repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: >>>>>- 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to >>>>>repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new >>>>>replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they >>>>>will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're >>>>>happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also >>>>>having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer >>>>>models holding up better? >>>>> >>>>>- We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) >>>>>and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and >>>>>be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% >>>>>replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a >>>>>problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal >>>>>to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action >>>>>it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais >>>>>Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of >>>>>micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research >>>>>the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or >>>>>lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a >>>>>tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, >>>>>service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from >>>>>that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product >>>>>that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the >>>>>micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says >>>>>'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used >>>>>in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so >>>>>both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A >>>>>25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but >>>>>if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent >>>>>warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component >>>>>that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the >>>>>installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a >>>>>very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running >>>>>a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios >>>>>are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of >>>>>you have experiences you can share here? >>>>> >>>>>I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on >>>>>these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown >>>>>rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential >>>>>applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much >>>>>what all of you are doing too? >>>>> >>>>>Rebecca Lundberg >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>>List Address: >>>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>>List-Archive: >>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>>List Address: >>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>>List Address: >>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > >---------- > >Avast logo > > >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >www.avast.com > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 11:01:44 2016 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:01:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <20160915134628.DC35310A80@che.dreamhost.com> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> <20160915134628.DC35310A80@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: My SMA micro-inverters have been rock solid for a couple of years. They do not taper off and do not communicate with the Sunny Island. The only issue I've had is that it seems that an internet connection is needed for the monitoring to work, even for the local monitoring. If there is no monitoring ie: power outage for the neighborhood DSL, then there is no direct way to see if they are working or not. Indirectly when off grid, my Trimetric is the best source of information on charge or discharge. A separate kWh would of course provide more accurate info on their status. I believe that these have been discontinued now though. Brad AEE Solar On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Drake wrote: > Is it the consensus that Enphase 215 inverters on are the most reliable > micro inverters (even though the tech support may be lacking these days)? > > Someone on this list mentioned that the SMA micros had a rocky time of it. > What were the problems with these? > > Do the SMA micro inverters taper charge when AC coupled with Sunny Islands? > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > At 03:24 PM 9/14/2016, you wrote: > > Re 190's. > > Not much to learn from dissecting a swollen 190. Most of the time the > swelling is caused by electrolytic capacitors that have failed. Some very > high current capacitors actually have brackets to bolt them down to > minimize swelling. > > Frank BZP. > > BZ Products INC. > 8801 Gravois Rd. > St.Louis MO 63123 USA314-644-2490www.bz-products.net > > On 9/14/2016 1:58 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > You guys should really cut one of those swelled up ones and share the > photos with us :) > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up > Jerry > > On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" > wrote: > Colleagues: > > We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the cases swell > up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them open to see what's > inside because they need to go back to manufacturer. > > William > > On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Mike > I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had > the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with > 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt > issues. > Jerry > > On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" < mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most > of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The > newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have > learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick > with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the > installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet > tried solar edge. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg < rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com> > wrote: > > Esteemed wrenches, > > I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader > perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, > tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. > > Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated > issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: > - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go > back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting > better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent > years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you > also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models > holding up better? > > - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and > though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' > the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with > Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it > appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working > -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais > Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of > micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the > viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) > of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they > would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our > experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says > 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually > manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company > says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a > very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers > are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the > inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there > is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send > us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so > either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a > very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or > two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from > our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share > here? > > I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these > micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced > us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or > not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? > > Rebecca Lundberg > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Sep 15 11:38:29 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:38:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> Message-ID: <7d5686ec906da250dbd4c9b024ea3737@mail.gmail.com> Here’s a pic of an M210: [image: burned enphase m210.jpg] I guess a picture is worth a thousand words. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frank -bz products *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2016 12:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters Re 190's. Not much to learn from dissecting a swollen 190. Most of the time the swelling is caused by electrolytic capacitors that have failed. Some very high current capacitors actually have brackets to bolt them down to minimize swelling. Frank BZP. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net On 9/14/2016 1:58 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: You guys should really cut one of those swelled up ones and share the photos with us :) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up Jerry On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" wrote: Colleagues: We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the cases swell up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them open to see what's inside because they need to go back to manufacturer. William On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Mike I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt issues. Jerry On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? Rebecca Lundberg _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 53049 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Sep 15 15:50:22 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:50:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B36916E-D737-4340-8766-9197A4461336@skyfireenergy.com> A couple of wrenches have suggested the Generac SMM (link in email below) but a call to generac resulted in them saying they only test it with their own generators and cannot say if it will work properly and will not offer support if connected with generators other than Generac. Have any of you used this SMM with success with gens other than Generac? And to answer a few other suggestions ...the reason we need something like this is the layout of all the electrical equipment. At the end of the driveway is the pole with the transformer and meter/splitter combo. 15' away is the shed housing the generator and ATS. Then there is the underground feed to the house which if trenched would be about 350' to the house where the main panelboard is located along with the 2 SolarEdge inverters and the PV system. So we cannot reasonably interconnect btwn the ATS and the meter, hence the need for a way to shut down the inverters when the generator is running. The SMM that was suggested sounds great, but I don't want our client to be a guinea pig to see if it will work properly with a non-Generac generator. Thanks, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Sep 8, 2016, at 6:45 PM, Matthew Sherald wrote: > > Generac offers a Smart Management Module. > > http://gens.lccdn.com/GeneracCorporate/media/Library/content/all-products/transfer-switches/residential-transfer-switches/0L1500-B-SMM-Module.pdf > > I used one of these at a grid-tie job where the customer was simultaneously having a Generac unit installed. The Generac installer turned me on to the device and it seemed to do the trick. It was a similar situation where the PV and GT inverter were at an outbuilding far removed from the main panel at the house. > > >> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> Wrenches, >> We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. >> >> The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the feeders to the house are underground. >> Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the house electrical panelboard. >> >> We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a manual reset. >> >> What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Benn Kilburn >> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >> 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 >> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >> >> >> WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 17:23:55 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:23:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back-up generator/inverter shut-down relay In-Reply-To: <9B36916E-D737-4340-8766-9197A4461336@skyfireenergy.com> References: <9B36916E-D737-4340-8766-9197A4461336@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Ask the client if he is willing tho try the $120 experiment. If it doesn't work, I'll give you $60 for the SMM. On Sep 15, 2016 15:50, "Benn Kilburn" wrote: > A couple of wrenches have suggested the Generac SMM (link in email below) > but a call to generac resulted in them saying they only test it with their > own generators and cannot say if it will work properly and will not offer > support if connected with generators other than Generac. > > Have any of you used this SMM with success with gens other than Generac? > > And to answer a few other suggestions ...the reason we need something like > this is the layout of all the electrical equipment. > At the end of the driveway is the pole with the transformer and > meter/splitter combo. > 15' away is the shed housing the generator and ATS. Then there is the > underground feed to the house which if trenched would be about 350' to the > house where the main panelboard is located along with the 2 SolarEdge > inverters and the PV system. > So we cannot reasonably interconnect btwn the ATS and the meter, hence the > need for a way to shut down the inverters when the generator is running. > > The SMM that was suggested sounds great, but I don't want our client to be > a guinea pig to see if it will work properly with a non-Generac generator. > > Thanks, > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 8, 2016, at 6:45 PM, Matthew Sherald wrote: > > Generac offers a Smart Management Module. > > http://gens.lccdn.com/GeneracCorporate/media/Library/content/all-products/ > transfer-switches/residential-transfer-switches/0L1500-B-SMM-Module.pdf > > I used one of these at a grid-tie job where the customer was > simultaneously having a Generac unit installed. The Generac installer > turned me on to the device and it seemed to do the trick. It was a similar > situation where the PV and GT inverter were at an outbuilding far removed > from the main panel at the house. > > > On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> We are installing 2 SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverters in a grid-tied system >> that has a 15kw back-up generator on an auto transfer switch. >> >> The generator is located in a shed about 300' or more away and the >> feeders to the house are underground. >> Inverters are located in the house basement mechanial room along with the >> house electrical panelboard. >> >> We are looking for relay options to shut down the inverters when there is >> a power interruption, before the generator kicks in. This could be a >> manual reset. >> >> What are some options you have seen/used for something like this? >> >> Thanks, >> >> *Benn Kilburn * >> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >> 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 >> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >> [image: email] [image: facebook] >> [image: twitter] >> [image: linkedin] >> >> >> >> [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] >> >> *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 15 12:04:56 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:04:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> <20160915134628.DC35310A80@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <003601d20f6a$f352b700$d9f82500$@sbcglobal.net> Brad, which has been discontinued, the SMA 240’s or Trimetric? While we don’t have a large collection of Enphase systems, after they are installed when needed to think of them at all, we have a consensus among owners of satisfaction especially in terms of monitoring and troubleshooting that goes with microinverters. I’m learning new features on Enphase’s website constantly. For what string inverter can you see a continuous graph of DC volts and input current, AC output volts and current, as well as frequency and internal temp of the inverters at the module level? At this point we may have slightly over 1% failure rate on systems that are up to six years in the field. Keep in mind that while there is talk of capacitors failing, SMA 240’s also uses a row of paralleled caps. And I sense an uptick in installer support. There is one area where string inverters have an advantage and that is the ability to place a lightening arrester between the module(s) and the inverter, making micros more vulnerable in that regard. Bill Dorsett From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bradley Bassett Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 10:02 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters My SMA micro-inverters have been rock solid for a couple of years. They do not taper off and do not communicate with the Sunny Island. The only issue I've had is that it seems that an internet connection is needed for the monitoring to work, even for the local monitoring. If there is no monitoring ie: power outage for the neighborhood DSL, then there is no direct way to see if they are working or not. Indirectly when off grid, my Trimetric is the best source of information on charge or discharge. A separate kWh would of course provide more accurate info on their status. I believe that these have been discontinued now though. Brad AEE Solar On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Drake wrote: Is it the consensus that Enphase 215 inverters on are the most reliable micro inverters (even though the tech support may be lacking these days)? Someone on this list mentioned that the SMA micros had a rocky time of it. What were the problems with these? Do the SMA micro inverters taper charge when AC coupled with Sunny Islands? Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 03:24 PM 9/14/2016, you wrote: Re 190's. Not much to learn from dissecting a swollen 190. Most of the time the swelling is caused by electrolytic capacitors that have failed. Some very high current capacitors actually have brackets to bolt them down to minimize swelling. Frank BZP. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net On 9/14/2016 1:58 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: You guys should really cut one of those swelled up ones and share the photos with us :) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up Jerry On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" wrote: Colleagues: We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the cases swell up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them open to see what's inside because they need to go back to manufacturer. William On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Mike I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt issues. Jerry On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" < mdelectricsolar at gmail.com > wrote: I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg < rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com > wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? Rebecca Lundberg _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 15 12:09:42 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:09:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <7d5686ec906da250dbd4c9b024ea3737@mail.gmail.com> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> <7d5686ec906da250dbd4c9b024ea3737@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003b01d20f6b$925e0c00$b71a2400$@sbcglobal.net> It makes you wonder about Enphase’s decision to drop the powder coating on their current 215’s. 250’s I don’t know. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 10:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters Here’s a pic of an M210: burned enphase m210.jpg I guess a picture is worth a thousand words. August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frank -bz products Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 12:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters Re 190's. Not much to learn from dissecting a swollen 190. Most of the time the swelling is caused by electrolytic capacitors that have failed. Some very high current capacitors actually have brackets to bolt them down to minimize swelling. Frank BZP. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net On 9/14/2016 1:58 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: You guys should really cut one of those swelled up ones and share the photos with us :) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up Jerry On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" wrote: Colleagues: We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the cases swell up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them open to see what's inside because they need to go back to manufacturer. William On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Mike I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt issues. Jerry On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" wrote: I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: Esteemed wrenches, I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models holding up better? - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share here? I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? Rebecca Lundberg _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 53049 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Sep 15 19:11:19 2016 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:11:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd monitor readout Trace 4024 Message-ID: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> Has anyone seen this kind of readout on a Trace 4024 inverter. Unit is functioning but access to the menu is unavailable and I’m wondering if it’s a monitor failure or something else. I did a factory reset but got the same thing. Ron Young -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: temp IMG_4847.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 108278 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Sep 15 19:39:44 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:39:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd monitor readout Trace 4024 In-Reply-To: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> References: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <75B20D8E-7DB6-424E-81EF-2D720EC97E7C@sindelarsolar.com> Long shot, Ron, but did you shut down the DC supply? That requires reprogramming the unit, but is a "harder" reboot. Allan > On Sep 15, 2016, at 5:11 PM, RM You wrote: > > Has anyone seen this kind of readout on a Trace 4024 inverter. Unit is functioning but access to the menu is unavailable and I’m wondering if it’s a monitor failure or something else. I did a factory reset but got the same thing. > > > > Ron Young > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 19:56:58 2016 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:56:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <003601d20f6a$f352b700$d9f82500$@sbcglobal.net> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> <20160915134628.DC35310A80@che.dreamhost.com> <003601d20f6a$f352b700$d9f82500$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: The SMA SB240 microinverter is discontinued. Brad On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 9:04 AM, William Dorsett wrote: > Brad, which has been discontinued, the SMA 240’s or Trimetric? While we > don’t have a large collection of Enphase systems, after they are installed > when needed to think of them at all, we have a consensus among owners of > satisfaction especially in terms of monitoring and troubleshooting that > goes with microinverters. > > > > I’m learning new features on Enphase’s website constantly. For what string > inverter can you see a continuous graph of DC volts and input current, AC > output volts and current, as well as frequency and internal temp of the > inverters at the module level? At this point we may have slightly over 1% > failure rate on systems that are up to six years in the field. Keep in mind > that while there is talk of capacitors failing, SMA 240’s also uses a row > of paralleled caps. > > > > And I sense an uptick in installer support. > > > > There is one area where string inverters have an advantage and that is the > ability to place a lightening arrester between the module(s) and the > inverter, making micros more vulnerable in that regard. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Bradley Bassett > *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2016 10:02 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters > > > > My SMA micro-inverters have been rock solid for a couple of years. They do > not taper off and do not communicate with the Sunny Island. The only issue > I've had is that it seems that an internet connection is needed for the > monitoring to work, even for the local monitoring. If there is no > monitoring ie: power outage for the neighborhood DSL, then there is no > direct way to see if they are working or not. Indirectly when off grid, my > Trimetric is the best source of information on charge or discharge. A > separate kWh would of course provide more accurate info on their status. > > I believe that these have been discontinued now though. > > > > Brad > > AEE Solar > > > > On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Drake redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > > Is it the consensus that Enphase 215 inverters on are the most reliable > micro inverters (even though the tech support may be lacking these days)? > > Someone on this list mentioned that the SMA micros had a rocky time of it. > What were the problems with these? > > Do the SMA micro inverters taper charge when AC coupled with Sunny Islands? > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar > PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328>*http://athens-electric.com/ > > At 03:24 PM 9/14/2016, you wrote: > > > Re 190's. > > Not much to learn from dissecting a swollen 190. Most of the time the > swelling is caused by electrolytic capacitors that have failed. Some very > high current capacitors actually have brackets to bolt them down to > minimize swelling. > > Frank BZP. > > BZ Products INC. > > 8801 Gravois Rd. > > St.Louis MO 63123 USA > > 314-644-2490 > > www.bz-products.net > > On 9/14/2016 1:58 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > You guys should really cut one of those swelled up ones and share the > photos with us :) > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > > The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up > Jerry > > On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" > wrote: > > Colleagues: > > We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the cases swell > up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut them open to see what's > inside because they need to go back to manufacturer. > > William > > On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > > Mike > > I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in Hawaii, we have had > the 190's fail but not to environmental conditions and very few issues with > 215's. Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very little salt > issues. > > Jerry > > On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" < mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. We install most > of our systems near the ocean so corrosion has played a big factor. The > newer micro inverters are holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have > learned over the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly stick > with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested or really fit the > installation particulars, so I still use them occasionally. I haven't yet > tried solar edge. > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg < rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Esteemed wrenches, > > I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give us a broader > perspective on the current market performance and as a secondary concern, > tech support (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter manufacturers. > > Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? We have had repeated > issues with several different brands on our systems in Minnesota: > > - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have had to repeatedly go > back to sites to replace units. The new replacement ones seem to be lasting > better (we sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in recent > years, but we're happy they at least provide a predictable stipend. Are you > also having to replace a lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models > holding up better? > > - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try (tenKsolar) and > though the micro-inverters were supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' > the ones with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and the ones with > Lead Solar micro-inverters have a problem where if one of them fails it > appears to send a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops working > -- in action it's far from redundant. When we purchased the tenKsolar Rais > Inverter Bus (RIB) the spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of > micro-inverter they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the > viability of the product or company or warranty stipend (or lack there-of) > of the micro-inverter OEM. We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they > would provide warranty replacements, service, and tech support, but our > experience has been far from that. When something goes wrong tenK says > 'it's not our product that's failing' because they don't actually > manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the micro-inverter company > says 'it's not our product' because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a > very unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so both manufacturers > are backing away from any responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the > inverter busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes wrong there > is no support and no apparent warranty at all except maybe they will send > us a new component that needs several hours of work to re-install, so > either the installer does the warranty work for free or the customer has a > very unexpected expense to get their system back up and running a year or > two after it was installed; we think both scenarios are unacceptable (from > our installer perspective :-), do any of you have experiences you can share > here? > > I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an anomaly. Based on these > micro-inverter experiences we feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced > us to use dc optimizers on residential applications whether we want to or > not -- is that pretty much what all of you are doing too? > > Rebecca Lundberg > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > > > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ------------------------------ > > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Thu Sep 15 20:05:14 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:05:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd monitor readout Trace 4024 In-Reply-To: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> References: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> Message-ID: HA! Looks like a scrambled brain. I can relate As Allan said, shut off the main DC breaker (should be a 250A) and wait for a minute of two to turn it back on. That may or may not work, but if it does you will have to reset any custom programming, such as the battery charging setpoints. Those inverters did not have non-volatile memory. Oh, and be aware that many of these systems had the charge controller output connected on the inverter side of the big breaker, so when you shut off the breaker it would disconnect the battery, but not the charge controllers, from the inverter. If that is the setup, but sure to switch off the charge controllers also Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *RM You *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2016 4:11 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Odd monitor readout Trace 4024 Has anyone seen this kind of readout on a Trace 4024 inverter. Unit is functioning but access to the menu is unavailable and I’m wondering if it’s a monitor failure or something else. I did a factory reset but got the same thing. Ron Young -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 108278 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 20:09:11 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:09:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd monitor readout Trace 4024 In-Reply-To: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> References: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <14B4E818-6BB8-4A8C-BD30-2E10E86F1214@gmail.com> Is this a remote display or the built in one? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 15, 2016, at 4:11 PM, RM You wrote: > > Has anyone seen this kind of readout on a Trace 4024 inverter. Unit is functioning but access to the menu is unavailable and I’m wondering if it’s a monitor failure or something else. I did a factory reset but got the same thing. > > > > Ron Young > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 15 20:06:51 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:06:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd monitor readout Trace 4024 In-Reply-To: References: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <35713e58a17053faa59184f6f3b65bec@mail.gmail.com> Did you press the reset button? Or, turn it off and back on (via main DC and AC breakers) William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Brian Teitelbaum *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2016 5:05 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Odd monitor readout Trace 4024 HA! Looks like a scrambled brain. I can relate As Allan said, shut off the main DC breaker (should be a 250A) and wait for a minute of two to turn it back on. That may or may not work, but if it does you will have to reset any custom programming, such as the battery charging setpoints. Those inverters did not have non-volatile memory. Oh, and be aware that many of these systems had the charge controller output connected on the inverter side of the big breaker, so when you shut off the breaker it would disconnect the battery, but not the charge controllers, from the inverter. If that is the setup, but sure to switch off the charge controllers also Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *RM You *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2016 4:11 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Odd monitor readout Trace 4024 Has anyone seen this kind of readout on a Trace 4024 inverter. Unit is functioning but access to the menu is unavailable and I’m wondering if it’s a monitor failure or something else. I did a factory reset but got the same thing. Ron Young -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 108278 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Sep 15 22:25:14 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 19:25:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd monitor readout Trace 4024 In-Reply-To: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> References: <3BE1E2A7-95B3-42A8-84EF-995D5C925D07@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <457dbe8a-7bfd-07cf-da28-a0e667a90b02@psln.com> we ran it through a few hundred of our NSA codes and it translates into:"Obama wins a third term". I've solved this problem by disconnecting the cable to the remote monitor, waiting a minute and plugging it back in. Bill On 9/15/2016 4:11 PM, RM You wrote: > Has anyone seen this kind of readout on a Trace 4024 inverter. Unit is > functioning but access to the menu is unavailable and I’m wondering if > it’s a monitor failure or something else. I did a factory reset but > got the same thing. > > > Ron Young > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 108278 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Sep 16 09:40:48 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:40:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters In-Reply-To: <003b01d20f6b$925e0c00$b71a2400$@sbcglobal.net> References: <14517AAD-1D89-4630-8758-9F9D522AD4D1@gmail.com> <769083D4-7EC8-4393-8555-1AB63AE7967C@skyfireenergy.com> <0adb21e6-106e-8798-4b52-31845488ca5e@brick.net> <7d5686ec906da250dbd4c9b024ea3737@mail.gmail.com> <003b01d20f6b$925e0c00$b71a2400$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <815d43d8-171e-1bf2-18bd-a2dd794dcd9f@entech-engineering.com> I do know that powder coating is essential in protecting switchgear in or near a marine environment. We provided pictures of dc disconnects with and without to SolarPro. Those that did not have it, had to be replaced within one year. The equipment was 600 yards from the ocean. We have been only installing Enphase in this environment when our customers are not opting for battery systems. So far in two years no failures for four residential systems. Chris On 9/15/2016 12:09 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > > It makes you wonder about Enphase’s decision to drop the powder > coating on their current 215’s. 250’s I don’t know. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2016 10:38 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters > > Here’s a pic of an M210: > > burned enphase m210.jpg > > I guess a picture is worth a thousand words. > > August > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *frank -bz products > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2016 12:25 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] micro-inverters > > Re 190's. > > Not much to learn from dissecting a swollen 190. Most of the time the > swelling is caused by electrolytic capacitors that have failed. Some > very high current capacitors actually have brackets to bolt them down > to minimize swelling. > > Frank BZP. > > BZ Products INC. > 8801 Gravois Rd. > St.Louis MO 63123 USA > 314-644-2490 > www.bz-products.net > > On 9/14/2016 1:58 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > You guys should really cut one of those swelled up ones and share > the photos with us :) > > > Benn Kilburn > > SkyFire Energy Inc. > > 780-906-7807 > > > On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Jerry Shafer > > wrote: > > The 190's had component issues which case them to balloon up > Jerry > > On Sep 14, 2016 10:11 AM, "William Miller" > > wrote: > > Colleagues: > > We have M190s fail in beach installations. Some have had the > cases swell up like there is a tumor inside. I haven't cut > them open to see what's inside because they need to go back to > manufacturer. > > William > > > On Sep 14, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Jerry Shafer > > > wrote: > > Mike > I also work near the ocean, its all around me here in > Hawaii, we have had the 190's fail but not to > environmental conditions and very few issues with 215's. > Do you have any pics of the damage as l have seen very > little salt issues. > Jerry > > On Sep 13, 2016 9:11 PM, "Mike Nelson" > > wrote: > > I've had so many Enphase failures it's kind of ridiculous. > We install most of our systems near the ocean so corrosion > has played a big factor. The newer micro inverters are > holding a much better, 215 and 250's. I have learned over > the years that SMA makes the best product, and I mostly > stick with them. Sometimes micro inverters are requested > or really fit the installation particulars, so I still use > them occasionally. I haven't yet tried solar edge. > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Rebecca Lundberg > > wrote: > > Esteemed wrenches, > > I'm hoping the experience of this list can help give > us a broader perspective on the current market > performance and as a secondary concern, tech support > (or lack thereof), from solar micro-inverter > manufacturers. > > Are others having much trouble with micro-inverters? > We have had repeated issues with several different > brands on our systems in Minnesota: > - 8 Enphase systems with mostly M210 and M215, have > had to repeatedly go back to sites to replace units. > The new replacement ones seem to be lasting better (we > sure hope they will). Enphase is harder to contact in > recent years, but we're happy they at least provide a > predictable stipend. Are you also having to replace a > lot of this brand of product? Are the newer models > holding up better? > > - We gave a new inverter busbar design concept a try > (tenKsolar) and though the micro-inverters were > supposed to take turns and be 'redundant,' the ones > with APS micro-inverters needed 100% replacement and > the ones with Lead Solar micro-inverters have a > problem where if one of them fails it appears to send > a signal to all the rest so the entire busbar stops > working -- in action it's far from redundant. When we > purchased the tenKsolar Rais Inverter Bus (RIB) the > spec sheet didn't tell us what brand of micro-inverter > they would use as the OEM so we couldn't research the > viability of the product or company or warranty > stipend (or lack there-of) of the micro-inverter OEM. > We assumed it was a tenKsolar product and they would > provide warranty replacements, service, and tech > support, but our experience has been far from that. > When something goes wrong tenK says 'it's not our > product that's failing' because they don't actually > manufacture the micro-inverter (it's an OEM), the > micro-inverter company says 'it's not our product' > because tenKsolar has it wired and used in a very > unique manner specific to the tenKsolar product, so > both manufacturers are backing away from any > responsibility. A 25-year warranty on the inverter > busbar is a great concept but if/when something goes > wrong there is no support and no apparent warranty at > all except maybe they will send us a new component > that needs several hours of work to re-install, so > either the installer does the warranty work for free > or the customer has a very unexpected expense to get > their system back up and running a year or two after > it was installed; we think both scenarios are > unacceptable (from our installer perspective :-), do > any of you have experiences you can share here? > > I'm wondering if the climate in MN makes us an > anomaly. Based on these micro-inverter experiences we > feel like the Rapid Shutdown rule has forced us to use > dc optimizers on residential applications whether we > want to or not -- is that pretty much what all of you > are doing too? > > Rebecca Lundberg > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Avast logo > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 53049 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Sep 19 11:16:00 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 08:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: RE: home trackers Message-ID: <1474298160.913521446@email.finestplanet.com> wrenches, i did some follow-up with array technology regarding the sales and service of home scale trackers. the good news is these services are still available (see the forwarded message below). todd mount shasta energy services ************************************ On Monday, September 19, 2016 7:16am, "Michael Reed" said: Todd, Please dispel this rumor in the Wrenches Group if it exists there. Array Tech took on some Utility Scale investors so we could expend into International Markets. We’ve done over 6 GW in the Utility Arena. Ron spun off Residential and created Wattsun Solar Trackers LLC and it is now based in Ron’s “stomping grounds” in NJ. He brought in a lifelong friend - Jeff Gruelich – and his son Kyle to reinvigorate Wattsun. I’m now in the Utility Group and doing a lot of quote coordination. Contact info for Wattsun: Greulich Jeff 973-476-1256 jgreulich at arraytechinc.com Greulich Kyle 973-647-7751 kgreulich at arraytechinc.com Take care! Michael Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Sep 19 13:57:57 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 11:57:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: RE: home trackers In-Reply-To: <1474298160.913521446@email.finestplanet.com> References: <1474298160.913521446@email.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <418772c5-0b71-dbff-9f46-59f706eda686@sindelarsolar.com> Well, it wasn't a rumor... I was given this information as well by=20 Michael. My post was about support and parts for existing residential=20 trackers. I spoke this morning with Kyle Greulich: replacement=20 controllers are available through them. It's now a plc-based unit with=20 its own sensor, and uses a 24V DC supply. The set is expensive; I won't=20 say the dealer price on this forum, but the retail (if someone sought a=20 set for their own non-Wattsun use, for example) is $999. Access is still through www.arraytechinc.com; select residential from=20 the menu. There will be a www.wattsun.com website yet to come. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 9/19/2016 9:16 AM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > wrenches, > > i did some follow-up with array technology regarding the sales and=20 > service of home scale trackers. the good news is these services are=20 > still available (see the forwarded message below). > > todd > > mount shasta energy services > > ************************************ > > > > On Monday, September 19, 2016 7:16am, "Michael Reed"=20 > said: > > Todd, > > Please dispel this rumor in the Wrenches Group if it exists there. > > Array Tech took on some Utility Scale investors so we could expend=20 > into International Markets. We=E2=80=99ve done over 6 GW in the Utilit= y Arena. > > Ron spun off Residential and created Wattsun Solar Trackers LLC and it=20 > is now based in Ron=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cstomping grounds=E2=80=9D in NJ. = He brought in a=20 > lifelong friend - Jeff Gruelich =E2=80=93 and his son Kyle to reinvigora= te=20 > Wattsun. > > I=E2=80=99m now in the Utility Group and doing a lot of quote coordinatio= n. > > Contact info for Wattsun: > > Greulich > > =09 > > Jeff > > =09 > > =09 > > 973-476-1256 > > =09 > > =09 > > jgreulich at arraytechinc.com > > Greulich > > =09 > > Kyle > > =09 > > =09 > > 973-647-7751 > > =09 > > =09 > > kgreulich at arraytechinc.com > > Take care! > > Michael > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Sep 19 18:35:38 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 17:35:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the appliance company supplied. Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably Whirlpool)? Thanks tons, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Sep 19 18:39:58 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 16:39:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years. As soon as I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe. The good old DR inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years back in the 90s. I for the most part quit selling them though, as even though most equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature failures. I would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the extra harmonic distortion. Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably would be better going to something older form Craig's list with no AC connection at all. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in > the last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 > powered by a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an off-grid home, i > recommended that they get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this > was the unit that the appliance company supplied. > > Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the > circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? > > Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true > (preferably Whirlpool)? > > Thanks tons, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Sep 19 18:46:07 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 17:46:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Ray, This is a circa 2002 inverter. I may just tell them to go to a pilot light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know). Kris On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years. As soon as > I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe. The good old DR > inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years > back in the 90s. I for the most part quit selling them though, as even > though most equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature > failures. I would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the > extra harmonic distortion. Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably > would be better going to something older form Craig's list with no AC > connection at all. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the > last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by > a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they > get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the > appliance company supplied. > > Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the > circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? > > Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably > Whirlpool)? > > Thanks tons, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Sep 19 19:25:32 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 17:25:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86491b69-647d-f631-37be-3b5b0e08c4a2@sindelarsolar.com> Kristopher, Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is likely to last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's almost certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues. If range replacement remains the only option, talk with Peerless-Premier (www.premierrange.com). As of my last contact with them a few years ago, they still make unadvertised models with circuit boards that were designed for original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven. Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Thanks Ray, > > This is a circa 2002 inverter. I may just tell them to go to a pilot > light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know). > > Kris > > On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years. As > soon as I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe. > The good old DR inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on > one for several years back in the 90s. I for the most part quit > selling them though, as even though most equipment worked on the > mod sine, we started noticing premature failures. I would > attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the extra > harmonic distortion. Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they > probably would be better going to something older form Craig's > list with no AC connection at all. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven >> in the last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model >> WFG515S0EW0 powered by a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an >> off-grid home, i recommended that they get an LP stove with no >> oven glow bar and this was the unit that the appliance company >> supplied. >> >> Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the >> circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? >> >> Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true >> (preferably Whirlpool)? >> >> Thanks tons, >> Kris >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email > address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update > participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, > WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Mon Sep 19 19:43:26 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 16:43:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: <86491b69-647d-f631-37be-3b5b0e08c4a2@sindelarsolar.com> References: <86491b69-647d-f631-37be-3b5b0e08c4a2@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <799ddf2e3cd3709bd09936d107a96679@mail.gmail.com> Solid advice from both Ray and Allan. Switching to a sine-wave inverter will solve the controller issue, but not the 300W glow bar draining the batteries. Switching to a Peerless-Premier would solve that problem, or use an old Wedgewood range like I do. My 6-burner/two oven gas Wedgewood from the early 40’s works great, and will likely last for centuries, but it does take 4 gorillas to move the damn thing. It must weigh 600 lbs, although I’ve never weighed it. Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 4:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven Kristopher, Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is likely to last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's almost certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues. If range replacement remains the only option, talk with Peerless-Premier ( www.premierrange.com). As of my last contact with them a few years ago, they still make unadvertised models with circuit boards that were designed for original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven. Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar. Allan *Allan Sindelar* *allan at sindelarsolar.com* NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Thanks Ray, This is a circa 2002 inverter. I may just tell them to go to a pilot light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know). Kris On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters <*ray at solarray.com* > wrote: Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years. As soon as I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe. The good old DR inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years back in the 90s. I for the most part quit selling them though, as even though most equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature failures. I would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the extra harmonic distortion. Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably would be better going to something older form Craig's list with no AC connection at all. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer *303 505-8760* <303%20505-8760> On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Hi Wrenches, I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the appliance company supplied. Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably Whirlpool)? Thanks tons, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 *www.legacysolar.com* *715-653-4295* <715-653-4295> NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 *www.legacysolar.com* 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 22:13:37 2016 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 22:13:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Message-ID: <011501d212e4$9980e350$cc82a9f0$@com> Wrenches, I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our local volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour them around my off grid neighborhood so that we can review various PV, micro-hydro, different inverters and battery systems, various back-up generators - diesel, LP gas, tractor PTO as well as standard gasoline generators. Then we will visit a 7 year old 5kW net-metered PV system on a 75 year old home (no battery back-up). . I'm sure that there will be questions about Tesla Power Wall battery packs as Green Mountain Power is selling and leasing these in Vermont. I have no experience with Lithium Ion batteries at this point and I could use some advice for the fire fighters. . Would you be more, less, or equally concerned entering a home with back-up Li batteries vs AGM's vs Standard LA's? . There are some 500kW and larger solar farms going in locally recently. Anything that fire fighters need to know about these fenced in power generators? Say, vs utility sub-stations that they may be familiar with? Thoughts on pulling utility meters to disconnect power from homes that have a fire on the premises? Arc flash back is a real issue and these volunteer squads are not going to have full flashback protection. What are the odds of serious injury of pulling a meter to disable utility electricity to a home on fire? Many times there is no other way to quickly disconnect a home from utility power. As a side note, Vermont does not require licensed electricians for residential work and only a couple of municipalities require inspections. It can be a little scary, but always interesting. Are there any good You Tube videos on fire fighter safety and homes with solar electric systems that you recommend? Thanks for your time, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Sep 19 23:09:18 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 20:09:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: <799ddf2e3cd3709bd09936d107a96679@mail.gmail.com> References: <86491b69-647d-f631-37be-3b5b0e08c4a2@sindelarsolar.com> <799ddf2e3cd3709bd09936d107a96679@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I just installed a system for some folks that found this range with no glow bar. The oven light and the spark ignition each take 2, 9 volt batteries so zero outside electric power source. http://uniqueoffgrid.com/product/unique-elite-30-off-grid-propane-range/ Those Canadians.... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/19/2016 4:43 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > > Solid advice from both Ray and Allan. > > Switching to a sine-wave inverter will solve the controller issue, but > not the 300W glow bar draining the batteries. Switching to a > Peerless-Premier would solve that problem, or use an old Wedgewood > range like I do. My 6-burner/two oven gas Wedgewood from the early > 40’s works great, and will likely last for centuries, but it does take > 4 gorillas to move the damn thing. It must weigh 600 lbs, although > I’ve never weighed it. > > Brian > > AEE Solar > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Allan Sindelar > *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 4:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven > > Kristopher, > Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is > likely to last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's > almost certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues. > If range replacement remains the only option, talk with > Peerless-Premier (www.premierrange.com ). > As of my last contact with them a few years ago, they still make > unadvertised models with circuit boards that were designed for > original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the > oven. Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with > sealed burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > _allan at sindelarsolar.com_ > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Thanks Ray, > > This is a circa 2002 inverter. I may just tell them to go to a > pilot light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know). > > Kris > > On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters <_ray at solarray.com_ > > wrote: > > Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years. As > soon as I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe. > The good old DR inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on > one for several years back in the 90s. I for the most part quit > selling them though, as even though most equipment worked on the > mod sine, we started noticing premature failures. I would > attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the extra > harmonic distortion. Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they > probably would be better going to something older form Craig's > list with no AC connection at all. > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > _303 505-8760_ > > On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their > oven in the last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool > Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is > an off-grid home, i recommended that they get an LP stove with > no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the appliance > company supplied. > > Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of > the circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? > > Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true > (preferably Whirlpool)? > > Thanks tons, > > Kris > > > -- > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > _www.legacysolar.com_ > _715-653-4295_ > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:_RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org_ > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > _http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org_ > > > > List-Archive:_http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html_ > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > _www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm_ > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > _www.members.re-wrenches.org_ > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance List Address: _RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org_ > Change listserver email > address & settings: > _http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org_ > List-Archive: > _http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html_ > List rules & etiquette: _www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm_ > Check out or update > participant bios: _www.members.re-wrenches.org_ > > > -- > > Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 _www.legacysolar.com_ > 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV > Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:_RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org_ > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > _http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org_ > > > > List-Archive:_http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html_ > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > _www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm_ > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > _www.members.re-wrenches.org_ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Rausch gas stove (2sml).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 988932 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Sep 19 23:02:10 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 23:02:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class In-Reply-To: <011501d212e4$9980e350$cc82a9f0$@com> References: <011501d212e4$9980e350$cc82a9f0$@com> Message-ID: <20160920030222.1BCC110075@che.dreamhost.com> Hi Dave, I have given this type of class to the Southern VT Fire Academy for the past couple of years, combining classroom powepoint and example labels, racking and modules with field trips to several PV installations in the Rutland area. I have been told that fire departments do not pull utility meters, they call GMP and a utility worker responds and handles that. Don't forget to cover SHW and other solar based obstacles and gizmos they may be exposed to on a rooftop-no one else is exposing them to these systems either. Also, lithium batteries are more common in motor vehicles today, and they probably already have some training in that regard. Good luck! Glenn Burt -----Original Message----- From: "Dave Palumbo" Sent: ‎9/‎19/‎2016 22:13 To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Wrenches, I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our local volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour them around my off grid neighborhood so that we can review various PV, micro-hydro, different inverters and battery systems, various back-up generators - diesel, LP gas, tractor PTO as well as standard gasoline generators. Then we will visit a 7 year old 5kW net-metered PV system on a 75 year old home (no battery back-up). . I'm sure that there will be questions about Tesla Power Wall battery packs as Green Mountain Power is selling and leasing these in Vermont. I have no experience with Lithium Ion batteries at this point and I could use some advice for the fire fighters. . Would you be more, less, or equally concerned entering a home with back-up Li batteries vs AGM's vs Standard LA's? . There are some 500kW and larger solar farms going in locally recently. Anything that fire fighters need to know about these fenced in power generators? Say, vs utility sub-stations that they may be familiar with? Thoughts on pulling utility meters to disconnect power from homes that have a fire on the premises? Arc flash back is a real issue and these volunteer squads are not going to have full flashback protection. What are the odds of serious injury of pulling a meter to disable utility electricity to a home on fire? Many times there is no other way to quickly disconnect a home from utility power. As a side note, Vermont does not require licensed electricians for residential work and only a couple of municipalities require inspections. It can be a little scary, but always interesting. Are there any good You Tube videos on fire fighter safety and homes with solar electric systems that you recommend? Thanks for your time, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Sep 20 09:10:02 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 06:10:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Message-ID: <20160920061002.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.2b07d77900.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Sep 20 09:55:13 2016 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 07:55:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <951482E593F845B6B9388DBF635B8DB3@OasisChris> Peerless Premier (www.premierrange.com) has offered battery-ignition ranges now for about two years -- no AC power required. They need an 8-pack of double A cells, and can also be match-lit if you don't want to fool with the batteries. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com _____ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 9:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven I just installed a system for some folks that found this range with no glow bar. The oven light and the spark ignition each take 2, 9 volt batteries so zero outside electric power source. http://uniqueoffgrid.com/product/unique-elite-30-off-grid-propane-range/ Those Canadians.... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/19/2016 4:43 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: Solid advice from both Ray and Allan. Switching to a sine-wave inverter will solve the controller issue, but not the 300W glow bar draining the batteries. Switching to a Peerless-Premier would solve that problem, or use an old Wedgewood range like I do. My 6-burner/two oven gas Wedgewood from the early 40's works great, and will likely last for centuries, but it does take 4 gorillas to move the damn thing. It must weigh 600 lbs, although I've never weighed it. Brian AEE Solar From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 4:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven Kristopher, Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is likely to last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's almost certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues. If range replacement remains the only option, talk with Peerless-Premier (www.premierrange.com). As of my last contact with them a few years ago, they still make unadvertised models with circuit boards that were designed for original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven. Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Thanks Ray, This is a circa 2002 inverter. I may just tell them to go to a pilot light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know). Kris On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters < ray at solarray.com> wrote: Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years. As soon as I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe. The good old DR inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years back in the 90s. I for the most part quit selling them though, as even though most equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature failures. I would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the extra harmonic distortion. Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably would be better going to something older form Craig's list with no AC connection at all. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Hi Wrenches, I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the appliance company supplied. Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably Whirlpool)? Thanks tons, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 10:25:18 2016 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:25:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class In-Reply-To: <20160920061002.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.2b07d77900.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20160920061002.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.2b07d77900.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <002a01d2134a$d0511c90$70f355b0$@com> Thanks Dan, Thanks for these good points and good ideas. Of course safety of the responders/helpers is #1, thanks for the reminder. I have not heard about spraying foam on the array to disable. What are the specifics on this? What kind of foam? Are your local fire fighters equipped to spray this when needed? Also, I had not thought that there would be lethal voltage from a PV array at night. Are you talking about small amounts of moonlight and starlight generating enough power to kill someone who cuts into those wires? Another question for the group. On an off-grid home, or barn, powered by an inverter I would assume that if fire fighters (wearing protective gloves) have cut into the homes AC wiring that the inverter power will be disabled assuming shorted wires. I know the old Trace SW's and the OutBack inverters shut off quickly in cases of shorted output wiring. Do all stand alone inverters shut down quickly in cases of shorted output? At this point the fire fighter would need to be concerned with the battery bank, any DC voltages in the structure, and of course whatever other power source may be connected to the structure - fossil fueled generator, PV array, wind turbine, hydro turbine. I recommend that the emergency responders send one person to sweep around the perimeter of the building(s) looking for any potential power generators. This person should have enough training/experience to disable these alternate generators by shutting off the fuel sources and or throwing disconnect switches as required. Dave Palumbo Independent Power LLC Hyde Park, VT From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Hey Dave, I'm a retired level 2 Fire Fighter and EMT. I've been invited to address several EMS departments and State Electrical Classes about Solar / Off Grid emergencies. All departments are required to re certify annually in subjects like CPR and Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT), so I try to build on that training. Basically, I like the strategy 'Identify the threat, protect yourself and the public'.. In that order. HAZMAT training (Including downed power lines, crashed trailer trucks and some industrial emergencies ), teaches to identify the threat and cordon off the area based on the threat identified. i.e. don't compromise FF safety if it's not absolutely necessary. Yes, there are times when a FF needs to conduct a hasty search, but the focus is on life safety, not property. Yes, EMS can still knock down a structure fire and overhaul, but there are situations where the best approach is to just keep everyone away and call in the pros.. The trick is knowing the difference. As we all know, the old 'Axe thru the battery cable' can be a recipe for disaster. If the battery is under load and gassing (an most likely the FF won't know because they're using SCBA), cutting the wire could set off an explosion. Similarly, I got to sit in on a conversation between a Prof. of Alternative Energy Vehicles at MIT and a Formula One Electric Racing Team.. Apparently many of the newer battery designs can ignite or explode if not handled properly.. and it sounds like once some of them go, there is no stopping them.. Again, Identify and if it's beyond their training, run. As for neutralizing an array, as you know the industry suggests covering the array with an opaque covering.. Looks good on paper, but could be a PIA.. I like to advise shooting the array with heavy foam from the ground to temporarily disable the array.. Even at night, although they don't make power, they can still have a lethal VOC.. Again, call in the pros. I think your point about the industry going thru so many changes over the years is an under statement. I've seen systems installed in the 80's that are safe, well designed and still performing perfectly. I've also seen systems installed more recently I wouldn't want my cat near.. There's been so many DIY systems and Uncle Larry installs, there's no telling what's going on.. More times than not, the home owner knows what's what.. Rule #1 in HAZMAT, 'If you see a truck driver running away from a crash.. keep up with them'. Hope this helps. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class From: "Dave Palumbo" < palumbo131m at gmail.com> Date: Mon, September 19, 2016 10:13 pm To: "'RE-wrenches'" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Wrenches, I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our local volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour them around my off grid neighborhood so that we can review various PV, micro-hydro, different inverters and battery systems, various back-up generators - diesel, LP gas, tractor PTO as well as standard gasoline generators. Then we will visit a 7 year old 5kW net-metered PV system on a 75 year old home (no battery back-up). · I'm sure that there will be questions about Tesla Power Wall battery packs as Green Mountain Power is selling and leasing these in Vermont. I have no experience with Lithium Ion batteries at this point and I could use some advice for the fire fighters. · Would you be more, less, or equally concerned entering a home with back-up Li batteries vs AGM's vs Standard LA's? · There are some 500kW and larger solar farms going in locally recently. Anything that fire fighters need to know about these fenced in power generators? Say, vs utility sub-stations that they may be familiar with? Thoughts on pulling utility meters to disconnect power from homes that have a fire on the premises? Arc flash back is a real issue and these volunteer squads are not going to have full flashback protection. What are the odds of serious injury of pulling a meter to disable utility electricity to a home on fire? Many times there is no other way to quickly disconnect a home from utility power. As a side note, Vermont does not require licensed electricians for residential work and only a couple of municipalities require inspections. It can be a little scary, but always interesting. Are there any good You Tube videos on fire fighter safety and homes with solar electric systems that you recommend? Thanks for your time, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Sep 20 11:31:12 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:31:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: <86491b69-647d-f631-37be-3b5b0e08c4a2@sindelarsolar.com> References: <86491b69-647d-f631-37be-3b5b0e08c4a2@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <20160920153201.0CDFC10253@che.dreamhost.com> We are looking for a schematic for the DR series inverter. Does anyone have one they could send me? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 07:25 PM 9/19/2016, you wrote: >Kristopher, >Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is >likely to last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. >It's almost certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues. >If range replacement remains the only option, talk with >Peerless-Premier >(www.premierrange.com). As of my last >contact with them a few years ago, they still make unadvertised >models with circuit boards that were designed for original Trace >mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven. Our family >home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed burners) >with electric igniters and no glow bar. >Allan > >Allan Sindelar >allan at sindelarsolar.com >NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >505 780-2738 cell > > >On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >>Thanks Ray, >> >>This is a circa 2002 inverter. I may just tell them to go to a >>pilot light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know). >> >>Kris >> >>On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters >><ray at solarray.com> wrote: >>Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years. As >>soon as I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I >>cringe. The good old DR inverters worked great, I even ran my own >>shop on one for several years back in the 90s. I for the most part >>quit selling them though, as even though most equipment worked on >>the mod sine, we started noticing premature failures. I would >>attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the extra >>harmonic distortion. Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they >>probably would be better going to something older form Craig's list >>with no AC connection at all. >> >>R.Ray Walters >> >>CTO, Solarray, Inc >> >>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> >>Licensed Master Electrician >> >>Solar Design Engineer >> >>303 505-8760 >>On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >>>Hi Wrenches, >>> >>>I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven >>>in the last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model >>>WFG515S0EW0 powered by a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an >>>off-grid home, i recommended that they get an LP stove with no >>>oven glow bar and this was the unit that the appliance company supplied. >>> >>>Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the >>>circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? >>> >>>Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true >>>(preferably Whirlpool)? >>> >>>Thanks tons, >>>Kris >>> >>>-- >>>Shine On! >>> >>>Kris Schmid >>>Legacy Solar, LLC >>>864 Clam Falls Trail >>>Frederic, WI 54837 >>>www.legacysolar.com >>>715-653-4295 >>>NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>>Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>>BSEE >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>> >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>_______________________________________________ List sponsored by >>Redwood Alliance List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>-- >>Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail >>Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com >>715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin >>Master Electrician BSEE >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Sep 20 11:48:35 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:48:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: <951482E593F845B6B9388DBF635B8DB3@OasisChris> References: <951482E593F845B6B9388DBF635B8DB3@OasisChris> Message-ID: Thanks all. I have a Peerless Premier LP stove in my own house, but i am grid tied so i was not sure how they behave with dirtier waves. Good to know that they are so bulletproof. I am guessing that the appliance shop will not be happy with going outside of their usual brands, but that seems to be the direction you are all suggesting. I will make my strong recommendation and see how it flies. Thanks, Kris On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Chris Daum wrote: > Peerless Premier (www.premierrange.com) has offered battery-ignition > ranges now for about two years -- no AC power required. They need an > 8-pack of double A cells, and can also be match-lit if you don't want to > fool with the batteries. > > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-0830 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *frenergy > *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 9:09 PM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven > > I just installed a system for some folks that found this range with no > glow bar. The oven light and the spark ignition each take 2, 9 volt > batteries so zero outside electric power source. > > http://uniqueoffgrid.com/product/unique-elite-30-off-grid-propane-range/ > > Those Canadians.... > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 9/19/2016 4:43 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > > Solid advice from both Ray and Allan. > > > > Switching to a sine-wave inverter will solve the controller issue, but not > the 300W glow bar draining the batteries. Switching to a Peerless-Premier > would solve that problem, or use an old Wedgewood range like I do. My > 6-burner/two oven gas Wedgewood from the early 40’s works great, and will > likely last for centuries, but it does take 4 gorillas to move the damn > thing. It must weigh 600 lbs, although I’ve never weighed it. > > > > Brian > > AEE Solar > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar > *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 4:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven > > > > Kristopher, > Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is likely > to last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's almost > certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues. > If range replacement remains the only option, talk with Peerless-Premier ( > www.premierrange.com). As of my last contact with them a few years ago, > they still make unadvertised models with circuit boards that were designed > for original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven. > Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed > burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > *allan at sindelarsolar.com* > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Thanks Ray, > > This is a circa 2002 inverter. I may just tell them to go to a pilot > light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know). > > Kris > > > > On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters <*ray at solarray.com* > > wrote: > > Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years. As soon as > I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe. The good old DR > inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years > back in the 90s. I for the most part quit selling them though, as even > though most equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature > failures. I would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the > extra harmonic distortion. Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably > would be better going to something older form Craig's list with no AC > connection at all. > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > *303 505-8760* <303%20505-8760> > > On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the > last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by > a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they > get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the > appliance company supplied. > > Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the > circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? > > Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably > Whirlpool)? > > Thanks tons, > > Kris > > > -- > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > *www.legacysolar.com* > *715-653-4295* <715-653-4295> > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > > List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > Change listserver email address & > settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > Check out or update > participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > -- > > Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI > 54837 *www.legacysolar.com* 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > > List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Sep 20 12:17:12 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:17:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: <20160920153201.0CDFC10253@che.dreamhost.com> References: <86491b69-647d-f631-37be-3b5b0e08c4a2@sindelarsolar.com> <20160920153201.0CDFC10253@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <63ed801f-b712-ad35-2661-b77aa7894670@sindelarsolar.com> Drake, As far as I know these were never made available outside of Trace/Xantrex. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 9/20/2016 9:31 AM, Drake wrote: > We are looking for a schematic for the DR series inverter. Does anyone > have one they could send me? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Tue Sep 20 12:43:37 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:43:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50bc41a9-5dc4-0a25-9f69-c8b644eff600@charter.net> Hi Kris, Where did you source your DR control boards? Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 9/19/2016 5:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in > the last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 > powered by a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an off-grid home, i > recommended that they get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this > was the unit that the appliance company supplied. > > Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the > circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? > > Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true > (preferably Whirlpool)? > > Thanks tons, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Sep 20 10:48:58 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:48:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class In-Reply-To: <002a01d2134a$d0511c90$70f355b0$@com> References: <20160920061002.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.2b07d77900.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <002a01d2134a$d0511c90$70f355b0$@com> Message-ID: <20160920144912.77E6010724@che.dreamhost.com> I suggest you review the testing UL did regarding firefighting and PV, specifically their tests involving the use of foam, before jumping on that bandwagon... -----Original Message----- From: "Dave Palumbo" Sent: ‎9/‎20/‎2016 10:25 To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Thanks Dan, Thanks for these good points and good ideas. Of course safety of the responders/helpers is #1, thanks for the reminder. I have not heard about spraying foam on the array to disable. What are the specifics on this? What kind of foam? Are your local fire fighters equipped to spray this when needed? Also, I had not thought that there would be lethal voltage from a PV array at night. Are you talking about small amounts of moonlight and starlight generating enough power to kill someone who cuts into those wires? Another question for the group. On an off-grid home, or barn, powered by an inverter I would assume that if fire fighters (wearing protective gloves) have cut into the homes AC wiring that the inverter power will be disabled assuming shorted wires. I know the old Trace SW's and the OutBack inverters shut off quickly in cases of shorted output wiring. Do all stand alone inverters shut down quickly in cases of shorted output? At this point the fire fighter would need to be concerned with the battery bank, any DC voltages in the structure, and of course whatever other power source may be connected to the structure - fossil fueled generator, PV array, wind turbine, hydro turbine. I recommend that the emergency responders send one person to sweep around the perimeter of the building(s) looking for any potential power generators. This person should have enough training/experience to disable these alternate generators by shutting off the fuel sources and or throwing disconnect switches as required. Dave Palumbo Independent Power LLC Hyde Park, VT From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Hey Dave, I'm a retired level 2 Fire Fighter and EMT. I've been invited to address several EMS departments and State Electrical Classes about Solar / Off Grid emergencies. All departments are required to re certify annually in subjects like CPR and Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT), so I try to build on that training. Basically, I like the strategy 'Identify the threat, protect yourself and the public'.. In that order. HAZMAT training (Including downed power lines, crashed trailer trucks and some industrial emergencies ), teaches to identify the threat and cordon off the area based on the threat identified. i.e. don't compromise FF safety if it's not absolutely necessary. Yes, there are times when a FF needs to conduct a hasty search, but the focus is on life safety, not property. Yes, EMS can still knock down a structure fire and overhaul, but there are situations where the best approach is to just keep everyone away and call in the pros.. The trick is knowing the difference. As we all know, the old 'Axe thru the battery cable' can be a recipe for disaster. If the battery is under load and gassing (an most likely the FF won't know because they're using SCBA), cutting the wire could set off an explosion. Similarly, I got to sit in on a conversation between a Prof. of Alternative Energy Vehicles at MIT and a Formula One Electric Racing Team.. Apparently many of the newer battery designs can ignite or explode if not handled properly.. and it sounds like once some of them go, there is no stopping them.. Again, Identify and if it's beyond their training, run. As for neutralizing an array, as you know the industry suggests covering the array with an opaque covering.. Looks good on paper, but could be a PIA.. I like to advise shooting the array with heavy foam from the ground to temporarily disable the array.. Even at night, although they don't make power, they can still have a lethal VOC.. Again, call in the pros. I think your point about the industry going thru so many changes over the years is an under statement. I've seen systems installed in the 80's that are safe, well designed and still performing perfectly. I've also seen systems installed more recently I wouldn't want my cat near.. There's been so many DIY systems and Uncle Larry installs, there's no telling what's going on.. More times than not, the home owner knows what's what.. Rule #1 in HAZMAT, 'If you see a truck driver running away from a crash.. keep up with them'. Hope this helps. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class From: "Dave Palumbo" < palumbo131m at gmail.com> Date: Mon, September 19, 2016 10:13 pm To: "'RE-wrenches'" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Wrenches, I will be presenting a class on "Solar Home Fire Fighter Safety" to our local volunteer fire department this coming weekend. I will tour them around my off grid neighborhood so that we can review various PV, micro-hydro, different inverters and battery systems, various back-up generators - diesel, LP gas, tractor PTO as well as standard gasoline generators. Then we will visit a 7 year old 5kW net-metered PV system on a 75 year old home (no battery back-up). · I'm sure that there will be questions about Tesla Power Wall battery packs as Green Mountain Power is selling and leasing these in Vermont. I have no experience with Lithium Ion batteries at this point and I could use some advice for the fire fighters. · Would you be more, less, or equally concerned entering a home with back-up Li batteries vs AGM's vs Standard LA's? · There are some 500kW and larger solar farms going in locally recently. Anything that fire fighters need to know about these fenced in power generators? Say, vs utility sub-stations that they may be familiar with? Thoughts on pulling utility meters to disconnect power from homes that have a fire on the premises? Arc flash back is a real issue and these volunteer squads are not going to have full flashback protection. What are the odds of serious injury of pulling a meter to disable utility electricity to a home on fire? Many times there is no other way to quickly disconnect a home from utility power. As a side note, Vermont does not require licensed electricians for residential work and only a couple of municipalities require inspections. It can be a little scary, but always interesting. Are there any good You Tube videos on fire fighter safety and homes with solar electric systems that you recommend? Thanks for your time, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Sep 20 12:56:08 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:56:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: <50bc41a9-5dc4-0a25-9f69-c8b644eff600@charter.net> References: <50bc41a9-5dc4-0a25-9f69-c8b644eff600@charter.net> Message-ID: Bill, It's the stove control board that fried. Sorry if that was unclear. Kris On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: > Hi Kris, > > Where did you source your DR control boards? > > Thanks, > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094 > > On 9/19/2016 5:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the > last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by > a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they > get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the > appliance company supplied. > > Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the > circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? > > Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably > Whirlpool)? > > Thanks tons, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Sep 20 13:11:36 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 17:11:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven In-Reply-To: <20160920153201.0CDFC10253@che.dreamhost.com> References: <86491b69-647d-f631-37be-3b5b0e08c4a2@sindelarsolar.com> <20160920153201.0CDFC10253@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <862584267a8f4e68ba020885ac06cb73@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> I have a copy of the official service and diagnostics manual for DR series. It's a 1.5" thick binder full of fold out legal pages, addendums, etc. Not the easiest thing to scan. Is there something particular you are looking for? Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: September-20-16 8:31 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven We are looking for a schematic for the DR series inverter. Does anyone have one they could send me? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 07:25 PM 9/19/2016, you wrote: Kristopher, Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is likely to last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's almost certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues. If range replacement remains the only option, talk with Peerless-Premier (www.premierrange.com). As of my last contact with them a few years ago, they still make unadvertised models with circuit boards that were designed for original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven. Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Thanks Ray, This is a circa 2002 inverter. I may just tell them to go to a pilot light stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know). Kris On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years. As soon as I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe. The good old DR inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years back in the 90s. I for the most part quit selling them though, as even though most equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature failures. I would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the extra harmonic distortion. Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably would be better going to something older form Craig's list with no AC connection at all. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Hi Wrenches, I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the last few months. The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by a Xantrex DR1512. Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the appliance company supplied. Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the circuitry with the modified sine wave output)? Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably Whirlpool)? Thanks tons, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ [Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cpicard at solarcity.com Tue Sep 20 13:27:54 2016 From: cpicard at solarcity.com (Charles Picard) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 17:27:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Message-ID: Hi Dave, These are some great questions you're asking, and you've prompted some interesting responses. I've been partnered up with a career firefighter for the past 2yrs teaching this subject, and have a few thoughts for you: Review the NFPA's recommended best practices for interactions with PV, you can find that free training here https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=352901 The training is based on this research: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_67iyt57PAhWDTSYKHd57DREQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ul.com%2Fglobal%2Fdocuments%2Fofferings%2Findustries%2Fbuildingmaterials%2Ffireservice%2FPV-FF_SafetyFinalReport.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEHXYPQ5_R0p-_QDW8fRvEYFx1xUg&sig2=W0zmY8dwh3D2EXk1XucXMA That will get you headed in the right direction. As my colleague says, you can still "Put the wet stuff on the red stuff" but you need to understand the rules you're playing by. This study does address how arrays may be de-energized, you'll notice that foam does not work and should not be used. You'll likely find the level of understanding on Li-Ion technology is woefully lacking, even amongst PV industry professionals. If you're going to tackle the subject, I recommend doing a little research on the types of construction and chemistries used. Too often folks lead their presentations with exploding hoverboards or stories about the FAA ban. In reality these are apples to oranges comparisons. For the Powerwall specifically, they have published an Emergency Response Guide that is publically available. They have also released results of a burn-test study that is very informative. There are a few YouTube videos floating around as well. Captain Matt Paiss has some publicly available, and recently collaborated with the IAFF and IREC to create some online training content that looks very good. Feel free to contact me directly with any questions. Charles Picard Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity ----------------------------------------------------------------------- t: 518.380.6628 m: 508.965.0144 RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click here to view our complete list of license numbers by state. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Sep 20 13:40:39 2016 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (peter.parrish at calsolareng.com) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:40:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Warranty Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0LqSzX-1bHRzi1Q0n-00e3Y8@mrelay.perfora.net> I am trying to recall exactly to what sellers and installers were obligated under the CSI. And was this tied to the rebates for PV modules (which no longer exist)? - A “3-R” warranty on the first ten years for the PV modules  and then a voluntary additional 15-25 year-warrantee (pro-rated), depending on manu. - A R&R warrantee on the inverters for the first 5 years, and then upped to ten years R&R at some point in time (when?) - A warranty of 10 years on workmanship - I further remember that the labor associated with the replacement/repair or PV modules and inverters was a burden borne by the installer, but in most cases there was a cost reimbursement schedule from the manu. All comments are welcome, and I would especially like to be able to cite chapter and verse in the CSI/CPUC documents. Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Sep 20 14:14:49 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?schematics_=28was_Re=3A__Issue_with_DR151?= =?utf-8?q?2_and_oven=29?= In-Reply-To: <862584267a8f4e68ba020885ac06cb73@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <86491b69-647d-f631-37be-3b5b0e08c4a2@sindelarsolar.com> <20160920153201.0CDFC10253@che.dreamhost.com> <862584267a8f4e68ba020885ac06cb73@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <1474395289.934820310@email.finestplanet.com> while we are seeking schematics, id love one for the array technology tracker's control circuit. im pretty good with a soldering iron and could probably bench repair these for my old customers... probably doable w/o the schematic, but much easier with. thanks, todd mount shasta energy services On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 10:11am, "Kevin Pegg" said: I have a copy of the official service and diagnostics manual for DR series. It's a 1.5" thick binder full of fold out legal pages, addendums, etc. Not the easiest thing to scan. Is there something particular you are looking for? Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: September-20-16 8:31 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven We are looking for a schematic for the DR series inverter. Does anyone have one they could send me? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 [ http://athens-electric.com/ ]( http://athens-electric.com/ ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Sep 20 14:25:08 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:25:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Message-ID: <20160920112508.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.045ec2891d.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cpicard at solarcity.com Wed Sep 21 09:39:29 2016 From: cpicard at solarcity.com (Charles Picard) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 13:39:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Message-ID: Hi Dan, I'll try to stop short of playing armchair firefighter here, and stick to what legitimate data is available. I follow most of the prominent Firefighter trade rags, and while there is some good technical content, there are also a fair amount of opinion pieces. The UL study linked earlier is typically the basis for any credible guidance on tactics or strategies, largely because there has been very little research done in the U.S.. In section 9 of that document you'll find the analysis of the de-energizing experiments conducted. These quotes stand out to me: 1. "It was the consensus of those witnessing this experiment that this Class A foam was generally ineffective in blocking what little illumination the sun was providing that day." 2. "The application of ordinary Class A foam with a compressed air foam system did not prove to be effective or reliable in blocking sun to an array of PV modules." (Note: VT is likely to have much steeper roofs than used in these tests.) 3. "...firefighting foam should not be relied upon to block light." - Section 14 You bring up a great point about the rank-and-file firefighter needing something quick and effective. Foam may be quick, but we would never say with confidence it is safe and effective. (How does an "average Fire Fighter" confirm that hypothetical 20Vdc?) I'd also ask that we start first by examining the need...Why would the firefighters need to de-energize the array during active fireground operations? Are those scenarios both plausible and likely? As a practical matter, de-energizing the array itself is going to be most important post-incident. This is admittedly a gap in coverage in this country. "Board-up", or salvage companies may not be trained to make these systems 100% safe, so each Fire Department is left to seek out a local PV professional to offer guidance. Another document that may serve as a blueprint for developing standard procedures is here: http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/research-reports/for-emergency-responders/fireground-operations/fire-fighter-safety-and-response-for-solar-power-systems The bibliography is quite extensive. Happy Reading! Charles Picard Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity ----------------------------------------------------------------------- t: 518.380.6628 m: 508.965.0144 RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click here to view our complete list of license numbers by state. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 10:37:22 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 08:37:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class In-Reply-To: <20160920112508.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.045ec2891d.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20160920112508.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.045ec2891d.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: I and others recently finished working with IREC on developing an online basic solar training program for firefighters. It's live online on the IAFF website and is free. I'm in a remote location now with only satellite email and don't have the link but it's something like iaff/pv safety. I also offer a NABCEP registered CEU train the trainer class for pv installers contact me off list. I will try to address some topics brought up in this thread as this horrible internet service permits.....and can do so in detail when I'm back in civilization next week. On Sep 20, 2016 11:25 AM, wrote: > Hey Charles, would you direct me to your reference "you’ll notice that > foam does not work and should not be used."? I've found reference in this > and other articles that states roughly 'like tarps, foam can not be relied > upon to completely reduce array voltage to zero', but no where can I find > the statement that states for the average Fire Fighter, a heavy foam is not > a fast, safe and effective method of reducing array voltage in a PV array > in an emergency situation - using equipment readily available. IMHO 20VDC > is much preferable to 480VDC. > > Thank You. db > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class > From: Charles Picard > Date: Tue, September 20, 2016 1:27 pm > To: "palumbo131m at gmail.com" > Cc: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" > > > Hi Dave, > > These are some great questions you’re asking, and you’ve prompted some > interesting responses. I’ve been partnered up with a career firefighter for > the past 2yrs teaching this subject, and have a few thoughts for you: > > Review the NFPA’s recommended best practices for interactions with PV, you > can find that free training here https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/ > catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=352901 > > The training is based on this research: https://www.google.com/url?sa= > t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_ > 67iyt57PAhWDTSYKHd57DREQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ul.com% > 2Fglobal%2Fdocuments%2Fofferings%2Findustries%2Fbuildingmaterials% > 2Ffireservice%2FPV-FF_SafetyFinalReport.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEHXYPQ5_R0p-_ > QDW8fRvEYFx1xUg&sig2=W0zmY8dwh3D2EXk1XucXMA > > That will get you headed in the right direction. As my colleague says, you > can still “Put the wet stuff on the red stuff” but you need to understand > the rules you’re playing by. This study does address how arrays may be > de-energized, you’ll notice that foam does not work and should not be used. > > You’ll likely find the level of understanding on Li-Ion technology is > woefully lacking, even amongst PV industry professionals. If you’re going > to tackle the subject, I recommend doing a little research on the types of > construction and chemistries used. Too often folks lead their presentations > with exploding hoverboards or stories about the FAA ban. In reality these > are apples to oranges comparisons. For the Powerwall specifically, they > have published an Emergency Response Guide that is publically available. > They have also released results of a burn-test study that is very > informative. > > There are a few YouTube videos floating around as well. Captain Matt Paiss > has some publicly available, and recently collaborated with the IAFF and > IREC to create some online training content that looks very good. > > Feel free to contact me directly with any questions. > > > *Charles Picard* > Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > t: 518.380.6628 > m: 508.965.0144 > > RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click here > to view our > complete list of license numbers by state. > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 11:55:34 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 09:55:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi charles, all.....yes, foam is both not opaque enough and slides off. Blue tarps / thin tarps are not either....only thick or canvas works....and what if the wind blows it off during the response? I recommend the irec / iaff Web class highly, it uses all the new UL data and It covers nozzles patterns vs distance and voltage. Big takeaway on that.....Ok to put water on pv from even 10 feet away, but do NOT direct water at electrical enclosures, inverters etc On Sep 21, 2016 6:39 AM, "Charles Picard" wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > > I’ll try to stop short of playing armchair firefighter here, and stick to > what legitimate data is available. I follow most of the prominent > Firefighter trade rags, and while there is some good technical content, > there are also a fair amount of opinion pieces. > > > > The UL study linked earlier is typically the basis for any credible > guidance on tactics or strategies, largely because there has been very > little research done in the U.S.. In section 9 of that document you’ll find > the analysis of the de-energizing experiments conducted. These quotes > stand out to me: > > > > 1. “It was the consensus of those witnessing this experiment that > this Class A foam was generally ineffective in blocking what little > illumination the sun was providing that day.” > > 2. “The application of ordinary Class A foam with a compressed air > foam system did not prove to be effective or reliable in blocking sun to an > array of PV modules.” (Note: VT is likely to have much steeper roofs than > used in these tests.) > > 3. “…firefighting foam should not be relied upon to block light.” – > Section 14 > > > > You bring up a great point about the rank-and-file firefighter needing > something quick and effective. Foam may be quick, but we would never say > with confidence it is safe and effective. (How does an “average Fire > Fighter” confirm that hypothetical 20Vdc?) I’d also ask that we start first > by examining the need…Why would the firefighters need to de-energize the > array during active fireground operations? Are those scenarios both > plausible and likely? > > > > As a practical matter, de-energizing the array itself is going to be most > important post-incident. This is admittedly a gap in coverage in this > country. “Board-up”, or salvage companies may not be trained to make these > systems 100% safe, so each Fire Department is left to seek out a local PV > professional to offer guidance. > > > > Another document that may serve as a blueprint for developing standard > procedures is here: http://www.nfpa.org/news-and- > research/fire-statistics-and-reports/research-reports/for- > emergency-responders/fireground-operations/fire- > fighter-safety-and-response-for-solar-power-systems > > The bibliography is quite extensive. > > > > Happy Reading! > > > > > > *Charles Picard* > Sr. Compliance Engineer | SolarCity > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > t: 518.380.6628 > m: 508.965.0144 > > RI A-004714 REPC-119, CA CSLB 888104, MA HIC 168572/EL-1136MR. Click here > to view our > complete list of license numbers by state. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed Sep 21 13:40:13 2016 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 10:40:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class In-Reply-To: References: <20160920112508.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.045ec2891d.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <248342.79643.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 15:57:30 2016 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 15:57:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol and MC4 crimper Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I wanted to ask you about Helios and MC4 crimpers. I bought a set of theAmpenol H4 crimp teeth and loactor for my Reinstag crimper some time back, to handle the Amphenol H4 connectors They work well but require changing the locator for femal and male crimps and they are expensive. I see this tool is out there. CRIMP TOOL 2.5MM-6MM, HELIOS 4, PV-670508-000 094-00007 It seems a less expensive solution and simpler than the Reinstag set. Any experience with this? What are your thoughts. With Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (cell) 513.766.6025 (office) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Sep 21 21:19:41 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 01:19:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol and MC4 crimper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1dd5fcabdaa04d0cbbeed5ffabb5552f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> I purchased a Helios H4TC0001 crimper, as recommended by Kyocera and have to report it as junk. After wrecking several H4 crimps I went back to using the German-Made Multi-Contact tool used for MC4 connectors and it appears to do a fine job on the H4 crimps. Just difficult to have everything lined up, and to stay lined up. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: September-21-16 12:58 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol and MC4 crimper Hello Wrenches, I wanted to ask you about Helios and MC4 crimpers. I bought a set of theAmpenol H4 crimp teeth and loactor for my Reinstag crimper some time back, to handle the Amphenol H4 connectors They work well but require changing the locator for femal and male crimps and they are expensive. I see this tool is out there. [https://www.aeeexpress.com/crsdocroot/content/images/products/large/31135d29b45b4df100694d590bae695e.png] [https://www.aeeexpress.com/crsdocroot/content/images/products/large/31135d29b45b4df100694d590bae695e.png] CRIMP TOOL 2.5MM-6MM, HELIOS 4, PV-670508-000 094-00007 It seems a less expensive solution and simpler than the Reinstag set. Any experience with this? What are your thoughts. With Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (cell) 513.766.6025 (office) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Sep 22 10:28:54 2016 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 09:28:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol and MC4 crimper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carl, I have owned that exact tool for 8 years or so. It has worked flawlessly for me on I would guess around 600 crimps. Kris On Sep 21, 2016 2:57 PM, "Carl Adams" wrote: Hello Wrenches, I wanted to ask you about Helios and MC4 crimpers. I bought a set of theAmpenol H4 crimp teeth and loactor for my Reinstag crimper some time back, to handle the Amphenol H4 connectors They work well but require changing the locator for femal and male crimps and they are expensive. I see this tool is out there. CRIMP TOOL 2.5MM-6MM, HELIOS 4, PV-670508-000 094-00007 It seems a less expensive solution and simpler than the Reinstag set. Any experience with this? What are your thoughts. With Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (cell) 513.766.6025 (office) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 09:37:39 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 07:37:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol and MC4 crimper In-Reply-To: <1dd5fcabdaa04d0cbbeed5ffabb5552f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <1dd5fcabdaa04d0cbbeed5ffabb5552f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <2508CBFA-FE36-4390-8527-ECB5AA0C34D4@gmail.com> I would suggest talking to the folks at PV cables. They know about crimpers! jay peltz power > On Sep 21, 2016, at 7:19 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > I purchased a Helios H4TC0001 crimper, as recommended by Kyocera and have to report it as junk. After wrecking several H4 crimps I went back to using the German-Made Multi-Contact tool used for MC4 connectors and it appears to do a fine job on the H4 crimps. Just difficult to have everything lined up, and to stay lined up. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams > Sent: September-21-16 12:58 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol and MC4 crimper > > Hello Wrenches, > > I wanted to ask you about Helios and MC4 crimpers. I bought a set of theAmpenol H4 crimp teeth and loactor for my Reinstag crimper some time back, to handle the Amphenol H4 connectors They work well but require changing the locator for femal and male crimps and they are expensive. I see this tool is out there. > > > CRIMP TOOL 2.5MM-6MM, HELIOS 4, PV-670508-000 > 094-00007 > > It seems a less expensive solution and simpler than the Reinstag set. Any experience with this? What are your thoughts. > > With Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (cell) > 513.766.6025 (office) > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 10:51:08 2016 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 08:51:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol and MC4 crimper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8FA4DDF5-422F-4254-9ED4-3D0A0A4C36CA@gmail.com> HI Carl, I used that tool for a couple of years, and found it fine. I did eventually switch to a Rennsteig crimper for H4 connectors but only because I found a great deal on eBay. I wouldn’t have any qualms about using the Amphenol-branded tool. It definitely doesn’t have the quality of the Rennsteig tool but it crimped fine and seemed like it would have decent life for the money. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™ Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com > On Sep 21, 2016, at 1:57 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I wanted to ask you about Helios and MC4 crimpers. I bought a set of theAmpenol H4 crimp teeth and loactor for my Reinstag crimper some time back, to handle the Amphenol H4 connectors They work well but require changing the locator for femal and male crimps and they are expensive. I see this tool is out there. > > It seems a less expensive solution and simpler than the Reinstag set. Any experience with this? What are your thoughts. > > With Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (cell) > 513.766.6025 (office) > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Sep 22 13:37:50 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 10:37:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters safety class Message-ID: <20160922103750.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.faf18c15dd.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Sep 22 20:18:00 2016 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 17:18:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 337 In-Reply-To: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <75265519-4F70-4E47-AFF2-5B17047605AE@solareagle.com> Hi Drake, you might want to check the leads. I had an intermittently working Fluke where the leads looked perfectly good but they were the problem. Ron > On Sep 13, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Drake wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > My old Fluke 337 is working intermittently, and it needs to be replaced. (An intermittently working meter seems like a deadly thing to keep around). > > It looks like the 337 was replaced by a 337A (now discontinued) which in turn was replaced by a Fluke 376. I am still able to find a 337 to buy. Is there any reason to get the 376 instead? > > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > <>Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Sep 22 20:31:08 2016 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 17:31:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless AGS for Magnum? Message-ID: <84A6AFDF-492C-4DED-955C-1F3062ADD395@solareagle.com> Hi Wrenches, I have a customer with a compromised underground wire from the Magnum AGS to his generator 150’ away. It quit working after 4 years. He’s wondering if there is another option to digging up the cable such as a wireless device. I’m thinking that the problem is the negative continuity between batteries which couldn’t be solved with a wireless device. Any suggestions appreciated! Ron Young earthRight Solar From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Sep 22 20:46:53 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 18:46:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 337 In-Reply-To: <75265519-4F70-4E47-AFF2-5B17047605AE@solareagle.com> References: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> <75265519-4F70-4E47-AFF2-5B17047605AE@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Ya know what....i'll echo Ron's comment. Check the leads. I was also questioning an intermittent working Fluke...switched out the leads with one that was working fine and found that one of the leads was the problem. FWIW, I found the loose connection was where the wire went into the moulded section of the plug that plugs into the Fluke. ​Benn​ On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:18 PM, RM You wrote: > Hi Drake, you might want to check the leads. I had an intermittently > working Fluke where the leads looked perfectly good but they were the > problem. > > Ron > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Drake > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > My old Fluke 337 is working intermittently, and it needs to be replaced. > (An intermittently working meter seems like a deadly thing to keep around). > > It looks like the 337 was replaced by a 337A (now discontinued) which in > turn was replaced by a Fluke 376. I am still able to find a 337 to buy. Is > there any reason to get the 376 instead? > > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 21:48:01 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 19:48:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless AGS for Magnum? In-Reply-To: <84A6AFDF-492C-4DED-955C-1F3062ADD395@solareagle.com> References: <84A6AFDF-492C-4DED-955C-1F3062ADD395@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Hi Ron, Is this a 2 wire start? Is it an AGS-N or AGS-S? Tough to do if it's non-networked. If it is networked you can use the AGS to drive the coil of a wireless relay. On Sep 22, 2016 6:31 PM, "RM You" wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > I have a customer with a compromised underground wire from the Magnum AGS > to his generator 150’ away. It quit working after 4 years. He’s wondering > if there is another option to digging up the cable such as a wireless > device. I’m thinking that the problem is the negative continuity between > batteries which couldn’t be solved with a wireless device. Any suggestions > appreciated! > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Sep 23 00:15:35 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 04:15:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless AGS for Magnum? In-Reply-To: <84A6AFDF-492C-4DED-955C-1F3062ADD395@solareagle.com> References: <84A6AFDF-492C-4DED-955C-1F3062ADD395@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <9557dc28db344f51aca8cf45f840ae0c@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Ron, Wireless AGS extension can be done with wireless radio modems. Short range kit will cost about $500 US for the hardware. I've used these before. http://www.bb-elec.com/Products/Wireless-Cellular/Zlinx-Wireless-Modems-and-I-O/Zlinx-Industrial-Grade-Wireless-Radio-Modems.aspx Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of RM You Sent: September-22-16 5:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless AGS for Magnum? Hi Wrenches, I have a customer with a compromised underground wire from the Magnum AGS to his generator 150’ away. It quit working after 4 years. He’s wondering if there is another option to digging up the cable such as a wireless device. I’m thinking that the problem is the negative continuity between batteries which couldn’t be solved with a wireless device. Any suggestions appreciated! Ron Young earthRight Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From tump at swnl.net Fri Sep 23 07:39:30 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 07:39:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 337 In-Reply-To: References: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> <75265519-4F70-4E47-AFF2-5B17047605AE@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <76563FDB-193F-42C1-99DD-C9F79AA09ABD@swnl.net> AS a matter of course we always replace leads in our meters once a year and send them in for calibration ~ every 3-4 years. Fluke is VERY good at there service and I would suggest that perhaps the cost is 1/2 as much as a new one. We will send the old ones in and replace it w/ a new one. Sometimes we need more then 1 clamp on. Check the DC amp rating on your exisiting meter & the new one, seems like some of them are only rated for 400A. > On Sep 22, 2016, at 8:46 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Ya know what....i'll echo Ron's comment. Check the leads. I was also questioning an intermittent working Fluke...switched out the leads with one that was working fine and found that one of the leads was the problem. > > FWIW, I found the loose connection was where the wire went into the moulded section of the plug that plugs into the Fluke. > > ​Benn​ > > > > On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:18 PM, RM You > wrote: > Hi Drake, you might want to check the leads. I had an intermittently working Fluke where the leads looked perfectly good but they were the problem. > > Ron > >> On Sep 13, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Drake > wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> My old Fluke 337 is working intermittently, and it needs to be replaced. (An intermittently working meter seems like a deadly thing to keep around). >> >> It looks like the 337 was replaced by a 337A (now discontinued) which in turn was replaced by a Fluke 376. I am still able to find a 337 to buy. Is there any reason to get the 376 instead? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> <>Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KBenyo at huntelec.com Fri Sep 23 11:40:15 2016 From: KBenyo at huntelec.com (Kelley Benyo) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 15:40:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sharp ND-208U1F module replacement Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches, I have a customer who needs a replacement Sharp ND-208U1F module. Does anyone happen to have one or know where I might fine one? Thank you, KELLEY BENYO | kbenyo at huntelec.com SOLAR DESIGN | HUNT ELECTRIC CORPORATION NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLATION PROFESSIONAL(tm) NABCEP CERTIFIED PV TECHNICAL SALES PROFESSIONAL(tm) 7900 Chicago Avenue S | Bloomington, MN 55420 * Main 651-646-2911 | * Direct 651-643-6651 * Cell 612-751-5173 | * Fax 651-643-6575 " Website NEWS * FACEBOOK * LINKEDIN * GOOGLE+ ________________________________ *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE*: This email is for the use of the intended recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this email or the information it contains without the author's prior written permission. The information contained in this communication may be confidential and may be subject to the attorney-client privilege. If you do not wish to receive similar electronic messages from us in the future then please respond to the sender to this effect. We cannot accept liability for the content, views or opinions expressed in this e-mail. We cannot accept liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeysolar at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 14:38:21 2016 From: honeysolar at gmail.com (Thomas Honey) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 14:38:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback PS1 enclosures In-Reply-To: <0C2E16CB-F09E-4119-9A63-FA794376E0C3@gmail.com> References: <9d7fdb9251109663d04fcd193f255e86@mail.gmail.com> <95311678274a74a3c3b50be7622df23e@mail.gmail.com> <0C2E16CB-F09E-4119-9A63-FA794376E0C3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, I have a completely operational PS1 with a PS1 battery box. Recently, I had a customer sell their home, but they had me remove the PV first. I replaced all three circuit card in the GVFX3648 inverter. Any interest? Thomas Honey Honey Electric Solar, Inc. Liberty, NC 27298 (336) 263-7246 info at honeyelectricsolar.com *Installing & Providing Solar Services, since 1994.* On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 7:43 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > Anybody have any PS1 enclosures lying around they’d like to get rid of? > > Please let me know > > thanks > > jay > > Please respond off list > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 21:20:05 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 15:20:05 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N. Las Vegas Message-ID: Looking for some solar contractors in the N. Las Vegas are to help me out. Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Sep 24 10:57:26 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 10:57:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 337 In-Reply-To: <76563FDB-193F-42C1-99DD-C9F79AA09ABD@swnl.net> References: <20160913212446.ABFFE109D2@che.dreamhost.com> <75265519-4F70-4E47-AFF2-5B17047605AE@solareagle.com> <76563FDB-193F-42C1-99DD-C9F79AA09ABD@swnl.net> Message-ID: <20160924145736.8D5C2103B8@che.dreamhost.com> I was on the phone to Fluke, preparing to send in my old meter and get an updated model for another $300, $100 off the retail price. I got suspicious of the leads while on the phone, and cancelled the RMA. Replacing the leads with another pair solved the problem. Continuity testing the old leads showed no clear results. The meter has worked flawlessly with the other leads. I think the advice or replacing the leads yearly is good. The ironic part is that I always short the leads together for a continuity beep before making any test. This did not alert me to the emerging problem. Thanks, Drake At 07:39 AM 9/23/2016, you wrote: >AS a matter of course we always replace leads in >our meters once a year and send them in for >calibration ~ every 3-4 years. Fluke is VERY >good at there service and I would suggest that >perhaps the cost is 1/2 as much as a new one. We >will send the old ones in and replace it w/ a >new one. Sometimes we need more then 1 clamp on. >Check the DC amp rating on your exisiting meter >& the new one, seems like some of them are only rated for 400A. >>On Sep 22, 2016, at 8:46 PM, Benn Kilburn >><benn at skyfireenergy.com> wrote: >> >>Ya know what....i'll echo Ron's comment. Check >>the leads. I was also questioning an >>intermittent working Fluke...switched out the >>leads with one that was working fine and found >>that one of the leads was the problem. >> >>FWIW, I found the loose connection was where >>the wire went into the moulded section of the plug that plugs into the Fluke. >> >>​Benn​ >> >> >> >>On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:18 PM, RM You >><solareagle at solareagle.com> wrote: >>Hi Drake, you might want to check the leads. I >>had an intermittently working Fluke where the >>leads looked perfectly good but they were the problem. >> >>Ron >> >>>On Sep 13, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Drake >>><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >>>wrote: >>> >>>Hello Wrenches, >>> >>>My old Fluke 337 is working intermittently, >>>and it needs to be replaced. (An >>>intermittently working meter seems like a deadly thing to keep around). >>> >>>It looks like the 337 was replaced by a 337A >>>(now discontinued) which in turn was replaced >>>by a Fluke 376. I am still able to find a 337 >>>to buy. Is there any reason to get the 376 instead? >>> >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>Drake >>> >>> >>>Drake Chamberlin >>>Athens Electric LLC >>>OH License 44810 >>>CO License 3773 >>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>740-448-7328 >>>http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>---------- >>> >>>Avast logo >>> >>> >>> >>>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>www.avast.com >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >>Tump at swnl.net >>www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 22:19:08 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 22:19:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless AGS for Magnum? In-Reply-To: <84A6AFDF-492C-4DED-955C-1F3062ADD395@solareagle.com> References: <84A6AFDF-492C-4DED-955C-1F3062ADD395@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Ron, I have used a 12v adapter plugged into the 120 AC from the generator to the low voltage dc connection on the Magnum AGS unit to take care of the negative continuity problem. Then a wireless connection of the two wire start should work. On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:31 PM, RM You wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > I have a customer with a compromised underground wire from the Magnum AGS > to his generator 150’ away. It quit working after 4 years. He’s wondering > if there is another option to digging up the cable such as a wireless > device. I’m thinking that the problem is the negative continuity between > batteries which couldn’t be solved with a wireless device. Any suggestions > appreciated! > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Sep 26 01:03:22 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 22:03:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real info for voltage In-Reply-To: References: <84A6AFDF-492C-4DED-955C-1F3062ADD395@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <9b40e5ce-84e7-0f0e-a05e-0963867b4f47@psln.com> Wrenches, I have a customer that is reading voltage with a non-RMS meter in the following scenario: 4000 watt Onan RV generator (older) at ~5500 foot elevation...its output is connected to the "AC in leg 1" of an OB VFX3648 using (customer installed, I came on this job after-the-fact) 10 gauge running about 75'. Genny fires up, feeds AC IN in VFX, sends about 1.7 KW to the batts, while also running moderate loads in house /another/ 75' away, again through 10 gauge. She is complaining about the voltage reading ~95 volts at times in the house. Voltage at genny is still around 120 (I am told) I suggest up sizing wire to 6 gauge, which they do but voltage is still in the 105 V range in the house, same scenario. As the batts come up to charge and input tapers, voltage also comes up some. Shouldn't the voltages be read with an RMS type meter to be accurate? She thinks the inverter is not working right though I've tried to explain to her that in standby the inverter is not inverting, its just passing genny power through, unchanged other than the load its pulling to charge the batts. Other insights to voltage drop in this case other than an RMS meter? Does it matter if the last loads are seeing just 105 volts? Thanks, Bill -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Sep 26 01:15:08 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 23:15:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real info for voltage In-Reply-To: <9b40e5ce-84e7-0f0e-a05e-0963867b4f47@psln.com> References: <84A6AFDF-492C-4DED-955C-1F3062ADD395@solareagle.com> <9b40e5ce-84e7-0f0e-a05e-0963867b4f47@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill, A true RMS meter shouldn't be necessary with a gennie in most cases, as the gennie is a rotating source, so the waveform is naturally true sine, or close. The true-RMS meter is more important with mod-square inverters, as cheap DMMs estimate RMS voltage as a proportion to peak voltage, and a mod-square inverter won't create the 164V waveform peak voltage necessary to read 117V by direct conversion. There's an exception here, though, that may be in play. What's your elevation? Drawing off of one AC output leg on that Onan will give you at most 2000 watts, and that's reduced by (rule of thumb here) 3.5% per 1000 feet above sea level. So if you're pulling 1.7 KW on that leg, whether or not the other house is also drawing, you may be overloading the Onan enough to pull down the voltage waveform peak voltage. First, yes, try measuring with a true-RMS meter, as a process-of-elimination troubleshooting initial step. Then try reducing the VFX3648's input current and observing how the voltage changes. Third, add a PSX240 or equivalent to allow both gennie legs to feed the inverter. I haven't run voltage drop calcs in making these recommendations, but I don't think that the #10 wire is the source of the troubles. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 9/25/2016 11:03 PM, frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > I have a customer that is reading voltage with a non-RMS > meter in the following scenario: 4000 watt Onan RV generator (older) > at ~5500 foot elevation...its output is connected to the "AC in leg 1" > of an OB VFX3648 using (customer installed, I came on this job > after-the-fact) 10 gauge running about 75'. Genny fires up, feeds AC > IN in VFX, sends about 1.7 KW to the batts, while also running > moderate loads in house /another/ 75' away, again through 10 gauge. > > She is complaining about the voltage reading ~95 volts at > times in the house. Voltage at genny is still around 120 (I am told) > I suggest up sizing wire to 6 gauge, which they do but voltage is > still in the 105 V range in the house, same scenario. As the batts > come up to charge and input tapers, voltage also comes up some. > Shouldn't the voltages be read with an RMS type meter to be accurate? > She thinks the inverter is not working right though I've tried to > explain to her that in standby the inverter is not inverting, its just > passing genny power through, unchanged other than the load its pulling > to charge the batts. > > Other insights to voltage drop in this case other than an > RMS meter? Does it matter if the last loads are seeing just 105 volts? > > Thanks, > Bill > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Sep 26 20:41:09 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:41:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DIN Rail connector source Message-ID: <37e6860224b34301bdf97f3c96ba1b43@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: I have been building a number of custom control and monitoring cabinets lately for some of our more complicated installations. I like using DIN rail components-- relays, connectors, fuse holders, etc. I have been buying these parts from Grainger, Newark, Digi-key, etc. From these suppliers there are a dizzying array of parts available, so much so that it is difficult to discern what will fit my needs. Also not all of them are of good quality. I am wondering if any of you have a found a single-source supplier you prefer for DIN rail components that you might recommend? Hopefully ne from which I can choose the parts I need without wading through 50 catalog pages. Also, is there a brand or style of connector block any of you favor? Most of my applications are low current. Thank you in advance for any input. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Sep 26 23:12:23 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 22:12:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DIN Rail connector source In-Reply-To: <37e6860224b34301bdf97f3c96ba1b43@mail.gmail.com> References: <37e6860224b34301bdf97f3c96ba1b43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I use a lot of Phoenix Contact din stuff from Mouser.com. You can get different width din bus bars with fixed bridges to make distribution blocks, from 26 to 2 AWG. Schneider makes a lot of products as well. Like RFP2AJD power relays for gen start and other controls. I also really like Omron products i.e. G2R-1-S-DC12S relays & appropriate din socket. Plus, solid state relays, power supplies and 'billions' of other din stuff. I think you will like mouser.com. Thank you, Maverick > On Sep 26, 2016, at 7:41 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I have been building a number of custom control and monitoring cabinets lately for some of our more complicated installations. I like using DIN rail components-- relays, connectors, fuse holders, etc. I have been buying these parts from Grainger, Newark, Digi-key, etc. From these suppliers there are a dizzying array of parts available, so much so that it is difficult to discern what will fit my needs. Also not all of them are of good quality. > > I am wondering if any of you have a found a single-source supplier you prefer for DIN rail components that you might recommend? Hopefully ne from which I can choose the parts I need without wading through 50 catalog pages. > > Also, is there a brand or style of connector block any of you favor? Most of my applications are low current. > > Thank you in advance for any input. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Sep 27 08:04:24 2016 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 07:04:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DIN Rail connector source In-Reply-To: <37e6860224b34301bdf97f3c96ba1b43@mail.gmail.com> References: <37e6860224b34301bdf97f3c96ba1b43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Automation Direction. Good prices. Reasonably quality parts. Free 2 day shipping. On 9/26/2016 7:41 PM, William Miller wrote: > Colleagues: > > > > I have been building a number of custom control and monitoring cabinets > lately for some of our more complicated installations. I like using DIN > rail components-- relays, connectors, fuse holders, etc. I have been > buying these parts from Grainger, Newark, Digi-key, etc. From these > suppliers there are a dizzying array of parts available, so much so that > it is difficult to discern what will fit my needs. Also not all of them > are of good quality. > > > > I am wondering if any of you have a found a single-source supplier you > prefer for DIN rail components that you might recommend? Hopefully ne > from which I can choose the parts I need without wading through 50 > catalog pages. > > > > Also, is there a brand or style of connector block any of you favor? > Most of my applications are low current. > > > > Thank you in advance for any input. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From Garrison at solarserviceinc.com Tue Sep 27 11:00:03 2016 From: Garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 15:00:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Awning Mount Racking Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Can any of you recommend a racking system for an awning mount? Hoping for a 45° tilt. In the past we were using Schletter for these, but stopped working with them about a year ago after they became unresponsive. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Garrison Riegel PV Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KBenyo at huntelec.com Tue Sep 27 12:52:00 2016 From: KBenyo at huntelec.com (Kelley Benyo) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 16:52:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sharp ND-208U1F module replacement Message-ID: Wrenches, Please contact me off list if you have any ideas. Thanks, KELLEY BENYO | kbenyo at huntelec.com SOLAR DESIGN | HUNT ELECTRIC CORPORATION NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLATION PROFESSIONAL(tm) NABCEP CERTIFIED PV TECHNICAL SALES PROFESSIONAL(tm) 7900 Chicago Avenue S | Bloomington, MN 55420 * Main 651-646-2911 | * Direct 651-643-6651 * Cell 612-751-5173 | * Fax 651-643-6575 " Website NEWS * FACEBOOK * LINKEDIN * GOOGLE+ From: Kelley Benyo Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 10:40 AM To: 're-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org' Subject: Sharp ND-208U1F module replacement Esteemed Wrenches, I have a customer who needs a replacement Sharp ND-208U1F module. Does anyone happen to have one or know where I might fine one? Thank you, KELLEY BENYO | kbenyo at huntelec.com SOLAR DESIGN | HUNT ELECTRIC CORPORATION NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLATION PROFESSIONAL(tm) NABCEP CERTIFIED PV TECHNICAL SALES PROFESSIONAL(tm) 7900 Chicago Avenue S | Bloomington, MN 55420 * Main 651-646-2911 | * Direct 651-643-6651 * Cell 612-751-5173 | * Fax 651-643-6575 " Website NEWS * FACEBOOK * LINKEDIN * GOOGLE+ ________________________________ *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE*: This email is for the use of the intended recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this email or the information it contains without the author's prior written permission. The information contained in this communication may be confidential and may be subject to the attorney-client privilege. If you do not wish to receive similar electronic messages from us in the future then please respond to the sender to this effect. We cannot accept liability for the content, views or opinions expressed in this e-mail. We cannot accept liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 13:46:37 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 12:46:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DIN Rail connector source In-Reply-To: References: <37e6860224b34301bdf97f3c96ba1b43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9DAD7559-9255-4852-9DA5-72B7750FE591@gmail.com> I like Digi-key due to the fact that they are based out of a small town in far northern MN. They chose to base in a very economically depressed region and have been a great part of that community for many many many years. Their site can be kinky but they get all my business even my business for the electrical maintenance program I teach. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 26, 2016, at 10:12 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > I use a lot of Phoenix Contact din stuff from Mouser.com. You can get different width din bus bars with fixed bridges to make distribution blocks, from 26 to 2 AWG. > > Schneider makes a lot of products as well. Like RFP2AJD power relays for gen start and other controls. > > I also really like Omron products > i.e. G2R-1-S-DC12S relays & appropriate din socket. > > Plus, solid state relays, power supplies and 'billions' of other din stuff. > > I think you will like mouser.com. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > >> On Sep 26, 2016, at 7:41 PM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Colleagues: >> >> I have been building a number of custom control and monitoring cabinets lately for some of our more complicated installations. I like using DIN rail components-- relays, connectors, fuse holders, etc. I have been buying these parts from Grainger, Newark, Digi-key, etc. From these suppliers there are a dizzying array of parts available, so much so that it is difficult to discern what will fit my needs. Also not all of them are of good quality. >> >> I am wondering if any of you have a found a single-source supplier you prefer for DIN rail components that you might recommend? Hopefully ne from which I can choose the parts I need without wading through 50 catalog pages. >> >> Also, is there a brand or style of connector block any of you favor? Most of my applications are low current. >> >> Thank you in advance for any input. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Sep 27 14:39:33 2016 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 12:39:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] gen-start module for the older SW5548+ In-Reply-To: <20160920061002.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.2b07d77900.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Dear people: I have a fellow with an older Xantrex inverter (SW5548+), and am trying to find him the GSM (generator start module) for it. Does any one have one they can part with, or know where I can get one? Please contact me off list if you do. Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Tue Sep 27 15:31:18 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 12:31:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] gen-start module for the older SW5548+ In-Reply-To: References: <20160920061002.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.2b07d77900.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, If you can’t find one of the original GSM units, you can use a standalone GSM like the Atkinson GSCM or the Magnum non-networked AGS. Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Daum *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:40 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] gen-start module for the older SW5548+ Dear people: I have a fellow with an older Xantrex inverter (SW5548+), and am trying to find him the GSM (generator start module) for it. Does any one have one they can part with, or know where I can get one? Please contact me off list if you do. Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corey at joule-energy.com Tue Sep 27 16:50:48 2016 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 15:50:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct Burial PV Wire? Message-ID: Umm, is PV Wire rated for direct burial? I have seen several manufacturer spec sheets that suggest this is the case, but I haven't heard of anyone ever actually doing this. Project Information: 1.6 MW single axis tracker (35) 40 kW string inverters Trenching from row ends to inverter wall, trench lengths will vary between 15-100 feet. -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Sep 27 17:11:14 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 15:11:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct Burial PV Wire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is direct burial rated, as per the Canadian Electrical Code, Table 19. *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 2:50 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > Umm, is PV Wire rated for direct burial? I have seen several manufacturer > spec sheets that suggest this is the case, but I haven't heard of anyone > ever actually doing this. > > Project Information: > 1.6 MW single axis tracker > (35) 40 kW string inverters > Trenching from row ends to inverter wall, trench lengths will vary between > 15-100 feet. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 18:46:48 2016 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 18:46:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct burial PV wire? Message-ID: <2C21417F-E51B-42DB-85CB-6D716987742F@gmail.com> I would recommend using Teck 90 cable for direct burial. It is armored and coated and rated for just about anything. You can get it in a variety of wire gauges and numbers of conductors. It makes trench installations fast and easy. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Solar Gain, LLC Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From dana at ecotechenergy.com Tue Sep 27 19:29:50 2016 From: dana at ecotechenergy.com (Dana Brandt) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 16:29:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a 480VAC panelboard that can be mounted flush to a 10 degree pitched roof as opposed to vertically? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Sep 27 19:49:36 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 16:49:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed Mitsubishi In-Reply-To: References: <20160920061002.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.2b07d77900.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <0b84acf1-e7dd-aafa-1cdd-bf25212f9197@psln.com> Wrenches, At a couple 7-10 year old installs (both are top-of-pole) of Mitsu 170's I've spotted several "bubbled" backsheets. At one install the output is 40% less than it should be (accounting for age, dust, sun angle, etc). They are all small, biggest being 3/16" X 5/8", some just bubbled, a couple have actually caused the backsheet to split open a little. Its uncertain whether I can see any discoloration through the glass side and the backsheets are black so its impossible to tell if it "burned" through from it darkening the backsheet from a bad solder joint or whatever. These are not impact dings, they are all the same shape, they are 6 to 12 feet off the ground. One example pic attached. I called Mitsubishi in San Diego (Jim) and he said he has NEVER seen anything like this, plus does not have any 170's to replace these. Any body else seen anything like this? and/or have any 170's. I might consider buying someone's dusty 170's because the installs are top-of pole and the 225's they're considering for replacement (even though "free" ala warranty) would be a significant/major hassle to make fit. May need 4 PVs, I need to go back and thoroughly check array. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kusel PV backsheet, Mitsu (3).JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 608581 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solar1online at charter.net Wed Sep 28 07:57:45 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 06:57:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DIN Rail connector source In-Reply-To: <37e6860224b34301bdf97f3c96ba1b43@mail.gmail.com> References: <37e6860224b34301bdf97f3c96ba1b43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <156636fe-6331-ea79-8e91-610bae13239c@charter.net> William, You might determine the source eGauge uses for their DIN rail accessory components. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 9/26/2016 7:41 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I have been building a number of custom control and monitoring > cabinets lately for some of our more complicated installations. I like > using DIN rail components-- relays, connectors, fuse holders, etc. I > have been buying these parts from Grainger, Newark, Digi-key, etc. > From these suppliers there are a dizzying array of parts available, so > much so that it is difficult to discern what will fit my needs. Also > not all of them are of good quality. > > I am wondering if any of you have a found a single-source supplier you > prefer for DIN rail components that you might recommend? Hopefully ne > from which I can choose the parts I need without wading through 50 > catalog pages. > > Also, is there a brand or style of connector block any of you favor? > Most of my applications are low current. > > Thank you in advance for any input. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 09:32:39 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 07:32:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct Burial PV Wire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: PV wire co marked USE-2 is direct burial. jay peltz power > On Sep 27, 2016, at 2:50 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Umm, is PV Wire rated for direct burial? I have seen several manufacturer spec sheets that suggest this is the case, but I haven't heard of anyone ever actually doing this. > > Project Information: > 1.6 MW single axis tracker > (35) 40 kW string inverters > Trenching from row ends to inverter wall, trench lengths will vary between 15-100 feet. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From habitek83 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 28 12:06:32 2016 From: habitek83 at yahoo.com (Tom DeBates) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 16:06:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Awning mount racking References: <949054853.2247444.1475078792965.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <949054853.2247444.1475078792965@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Garrison,  We build our own. Build some A-frames using some standard aluminum forms, bolt them to the wall, add some lateral bracing, add some standard rails........ Tom DeBates Habi-Tek Message: 4 Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 15:00:03 +0000 From: Garrison Riegel To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches]  Awning Mount Racking Message-ID:         Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hello Wrenches, Can any of you recommend a racking system for an awning mount?  Hoping for a 45? tilt.  In the past we were using Schletter for these, but stopped working with them about a year ago after they became unresponsive. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Garrison Riegel PV Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Wed Sep 28 15:28:58 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 15:28:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Resolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wanted to send a quick email and thank everyone for their suggestions and help. Dan at Exeltech ultimately spent some time on the phone with me and his technical acumen was much appreciated - albeit not completely understood. We tried just about every solution suggested without any luck. The only solution that was successful (beyond wires in free air) was running a second set of conduit from the roof to inverter and grouping the positives in one conduit and negatives in the other conduit (a string in each conduit resulted in same inverter failure mode as before). Dan's explanation: 'This now has all the symptoms of a resonance condition in the inverter front end .. which points to a design characteristic in the inverter... ...[The solution] hasn't eliminated the source of the issue .. but has simply prevented the circumstances that trigger it from being present. You'll want to get back to the inverter manufacturer and suggest to their engineers look for an unwanted resonance / oscillation condition at the DC input. Despite your having turned off the MPPT function in the inverter, and the condition still existed .. this hasn't eliminated the inverter as the culprit. For example, there is still the consideration of the ramp rate, which in of itself limits the slope on the power increase.' I have installed a lot of Solectria 3800s without seeing this before, including identical systems. It sounds like just an unfortunate circumstance that hopefully we will never encounter again. Thanks again, Matt On Wed, September 7, 2016 11:33 pm, Matthew Sirum wrote: > Greetings Matt, > > > I like the troubleshooting thoughts others have given. If all else > leaves you with the issue persisting I would also consider checking for > current on the grounding system and on bonded conductive materials/items > on the property. It may be helpful to see if there is any current on the > Equipment Grounding Conductors, Grounding Electrode > Conductor(s), metallic conduits & raceways, PV mounting system, and > etc. If the inverter in this system has an AC Neutral connection intended > only for instrumentation and L1 & L2 voltage reference it would be > interesting to measure the actual current on it. It is good you have a > similar system installed next door, you may need to compare test > measurements and readings. If you run out of tests and troubleshooting > ideas it may be helpful to open (turn off) all the circuits in the > house/on the service and see how the PV system performs while being the > only item connected to the service. > > The "smart" modules/optimizers may be making system troubleshooting > more challenging. I wonder what Trina & Tigo has/can offer(ed) to assist > with troubleshooting?... and if there is an approved/safe megger > (insulation resistance) test for these modules? This is an > interesting case. I'll be continuing to follow the thread. I hope we can > all learn something from this. > > Best regards, > > > ----MATT > > > Matthew Sirum > P.O. Box 1227 > Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA > phone: +1.413.773.0611 > email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com > > > Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:45:32 -0400 > From: "Matt Partymiller" > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Stumper - Homerun Interference > in Conduit/Inverter Turning Off/On Rapidly > > Wrenches, > > > One of our systems is having an issue I have not encountered before > where the inverter switches between nighttime mode and interconnection > every few seconds. I am hoping for some technical wisdom from the > community. > > We have an array of 20 TrinaSmart modules in two strings of 10. The > array is connected to a Solectria 3.8 kW inverter. The conduit run is > simple, all four homerun wires (#10 PVwire) in 1" EMT down to the > proximity of the Solectria inverter where the conduit switches to 1" LFMC > before entering the inverter. The run is about 20', straight down the > side of the wall before hitting the inverter. A 600V jacketed > communications wire was also in the conduit but has since been removed and > run separately. > > Our inverter is starting up, running for a few seconds, giving a low > voltage error, briefly showing nighttime mode, then going into startup mode > again. Solectria was gracious enough to send us a new inverter but we > have the exact same issue. They tell us their error codes (266, 274) > indicate 0 volts. The transition between low voltage error and startup is > almost instant. Basically we have 20 seconds of start up, 5 seconds of > run, 5 seconds of error then repeat. This is not a grid problem, the > identical system next door works fine. > > In the process of troubleshooting, our technician pulled all four homerun > wires out of our conduit and meggered them. They all tested fine so he > connected to the inverter. The inverter worked fine. The technician > verified grounding of the array and conduit, pulled new homeruns back > through the conduit, and reconnected to the inverter. He had the same > error as before. > > He connected each string separately to the inverter by removing the > string fuses. Either string will operate fine independently. With string > one in conduit and either homerun of string two in conduit (but not both) > the inverter operates fine. With string two in conduit but string one > outside of conduit, the inverter does not operate. > > I was certain the error had something to do with homerun roof wiring so I > went out with the technician and removed and checked pretty much every > module. Everything appears fine, all connections solid, all homeruns have > been remade at least once at this point. Now I am stumped and lack the > technical knowledge to diagnose the problem. I would be extremely > grateful if an esteemed wrench can provide technical support/advice. > > Thanks, > > > Matt > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From corey at joule-energy.com Wed Sep 28 19:32:18 2016 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 18:32:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Megawatt System - Combiner Output Wiring Message-ID: We're in the process of designing our first >1MW system. It will include inverter output combiner panels (potential aggregate current >700A) located approx 100' from the system disconnects. Since we have never previously dealt with wires this big (2 sets of paralleled 500 mcm?) we are thinking that direct burial (aluminum) conductors might be a good option - any suggestions? What wiring method do others use for this type of *large ampacity* AC circuit? UF? USE? USE-2? Other?.. -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Sep 28 17:13:33 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 17:13:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d219cd$2c84b390$858e1ab0$@icloud.com> Boxes, etc, if allowed to mounted other than horizontal, are specifically listed as mountable to a certain angle. If it’s not listed to 10 degrees, then no. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Brandt Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 7:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a 480VAC panelboard that can be mounted flush to a 10 degree pitched roof as opposed to vertically? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Sep 28 17:15:37 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 17:15:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000d01d219cd$76607a30$63216e90$@icloud.com> Correction: I meant “other than vertical” in last email, not horizontal. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Brandt Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 7:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a 480VAC panelboard that can be mounted flush to a 10 degree pitched roof as opposed to vertically? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Wed Sep 28 22:51:38 2016 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 19:51:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct Burial PV Wire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <957b5c39-7c4e-828e-63a6-a5364d011af6@berkeleysolar.com> Corey, Generally, when choosing a larger system with multiple string inverters, the preferred architecture is to have the string inverters distributed - located at the ends of each row, and running AC lines back to a central AC combining location. This minimizes the length of the high voltage DC wiring to the short jump from the array to inverter and it allows short circuit/OCP for the runs back to the AC combiner to be provided by standard AC rated equipment. This also allows the wire runs to be standard building wire in plastic conduit. Did you consider this and choose the "inverter wall" for some particular reason? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems On 9/27/2016 1:50 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > Umm, is PV Wire rated for direct burial? I have seen several > manufacturer spec sheets that suggest this is the case, but I haven't > heard of anyone ever actually doing this. > > Project Information: > 1.6 MW single axis tracker > (35) 40 kW string inverters > Trenching from row ends to inverter wall, trench lengths will vary > between 15-100 feet. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 07:30:11 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 06:30:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Megawatt System - Combiner Output Wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6072DA32-EFFA-4E3F-939A-86ACA550A40F@gmail.com> The Last large system I worked on we used direct burial alum 750s. We had a large crew out that day to help with that wire pull, it was 1000'. Eventually the backhoe that dug the trench was used to help pull the wires (slowly!). I guess I'd do it that way again but I don't have lots of experience with large systems like others might. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 28, 2016, at 6:32 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > We're in the process of designing our first >1MW system. It will include inverter output combiner panels (potential aggregate current >700A) located approx 100' from the system disconnects. > > Since we have never previously dealt with wires this big (2 sets of paralleled 500 mcm?) we are thinking that direct burial (aluminum) conductors might be a good option - any suggestions? What wiring method do others use for this type of large ampacity AC circuit? UF? USE? USE-2? Other?.. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at ecotechenergy.com Thu Sep 29 15:55:57 2016 From: dana at ecotechenergy.com (Dana Brandt) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 12:55:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope In-Reply-To: <000d01d219cd$76607a30$63216e90$@icloud.com> References: <000d01d219cd$76607a30$63216e90$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Kirk. I understand that if a panel isn't list for other than vertical mounting we can't lay it down. I was hoping a wrench may know of a panel that *is* listed for other than vertical mounting. Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Correction: I meant “other than vertical” in last email, not horizontal. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dana Brandt > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 7:30 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Does anyone know of a 480VAC panelboard that can be mounted flush to a 10 > degree pitched roof as opposed to vertically? > > > > Thanks, > > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 16:11:43 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 16:11:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Specify NEMA12. On Sep 27, 2016 19:30, "Dana Brandt" wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Does anyone know of a 480VAC panelboard that can be mounted flush to a 10 > degree pitched roof as opposed to vertically? > > Thanks, > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 16:13:19 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 10:13:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope Message-ID: WrenchesMounting a panel on a roof may not be approvable do to access conditions, work space, flat and level surface in front of the panel. Just a thought. We have only mounted upright and a electrical engineer l spoke to has not heard that request before either.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Dana Brandt Date: 9/29/16 9:55 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope Thanks, Kirk. I understand that if a panel isn't list for other than vertical mounting we can't lay it down. I was hoping a wrench may know of a panel that is listed for other than vertical mounting. Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: Correction: I meant “other than vertical” in last email, not horizontal. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Brandt Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 7:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a 480VAC panelboard that can be mounted flush to a 10 degree pitched roof as opposed to vertically?  Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20160627_134001_resized.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 861432 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ryan at renewableassociates.com Thu Sep 29 16:28:51 2016 From: ryan at renewableassociates.com (Ryan Mayfield) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 13:28:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00da01d21a90$179a80e0$46cf82a0$@renewableassociates.com> Bentek has a product listed on their site that may fit the bill, although there isn’t much in the way of documentation: http://www.bentek.com/solar-products/disconnect-systems/ac-powerbuss/ Ryan From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 1:12 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope Specify NEMA12. On Sep 27, 2016 19:30, "Dana Brandt" > wrote: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a 480VAC panelboard that can be mounted flush to a 10 degree pitched roof as opposed to vertically? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stc.jason at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 16:38:34 2016 From: stc.jason at gmail.com (Jason Fisher (STC)) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 16:38:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope In-Reply-To: <00da01d21a90$179a80e0$46cf82a0$@renewableassociates.com> References: <00da01d21a90$179a80e0$46cf82a0$@renewableassociates.com> Message-ID: I saw some interesting new AC combiners from SolarBOS at SPI. Might want to check with them depending on exactly what you are using this equipment for. Jason Fisher On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 4:28 PM, Ryan Mayfield wrote: > Bentek has a product listed on their site that may fit the bill, although > there isn’t much in the way of documentation: http://www.bentek.com/solar- > products/disconnect-systems/ac-powerbuss/ > > > > Ryan > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Thursday, September 29, 2016 1:12 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope > > > > Specify NEMA12. > > > > On Sep 27, 2016 19:30, "Dana Brandt" wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Does anyone know of a 480VAC panelboard that can be mounted flush to a 10 > degree pitched roof as opposed to vertically? > > > > Thanks, > > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Jason Fisher 434-409-8173 stc.jason at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 16:58:33 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 13:58:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope In-Reply-To: References: <00da01d21a90$179a80e0$46cf82a0$@renewableassociates.com> Message-ID: Dana.....we have used the Eaton Cutler Hammer custom enclosures from their Lincoln Flex Center.... They will make you any NEMA rated enclosure you like.....with a variety of box materials. We have used them to make us some 4X AC load centers....Expensive and takes a few weeks but works well. We order them from our local Platt Electric supply house. Any of the Cutler Hammer distributors should be able to order them for you. You can do a search on Google and you will find all the info you need. Good luck! Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Sep 29, 2016 1:38 PM, "Jason Fisher (STC)" wrote: I saw some interesting new AC combiners from SolarBOS at SPI. Might want to check with them depending on exactly what you are using this equipment for. Jason Fisher On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 4:28 PM, Ryan Mayfield wrote: > Bentek has a product listed on their site that may fit the bill, although > there isn’t much in the way of documentation: > http://www.bentek.com/solar-products/disconnect-systems/ac-powerbuss/ > > > > Ryan > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Thursday, September 29, 2016 1:12 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sub Panel Mounted on Roof Slope > > > > Specify NEMA12. > > > > On Sep 27, 2016 19:30, "Dana Brandt" wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Does anyone know of a 480VAC panelboard that can be mounted flush to a 10 > degree pitched roof as opposed to vertically? > > > > Thanks, > > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Jason Fisher 434-409-8173 stc.jason at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Sep 29 23:53:31 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 20:53:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backsheet failure In-Reply-To: References: <00da01d21a90$179a80e0$46cf82a0$@renewableassociates.com> Message-ID: Hey folks, At 2 top-of-pole ~10 year old installations (each installation has 2 X 12 PVs) with Mitsubishi MF-PV170EB3 PVs I have found now several ( ~7) backsheets that have bubbled and a couple have actually ruptured. The bubbles are only about 3/8" x 3/4" in size, average. Through the glass, I can see a little browning on some of them. At one installation I took Voc, Vmpp, Impp of each string and voltages were very close but Impp on one string was .5 amp different string to string at same installation. I have contacted Mitsubishi and Jim says he has never seen this before, thus my inquiry to this list. I just happen to have the ONLY 7, Mitsu PVs that have ever done this? Despite this, he has sent me the warranty claim form. Check out the pic. This inspection was requested because output of these two systems seems about 30% low after accounting for age, dust, sun angle,temp, etc. If there are any other cases like this that may be out there, I'd appreciate knowing about it. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kusel PV backsheet, Mitsu (3).JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 608581 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Mon Oct 3 22:20:45 2016 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 22:20:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clipping of microinverter output Message-ID: <003601d21de5$eaaa20a0$bffe61e0$@net> Recently I've been concerned about power clipping of micro inverters and the design ratio of PV STC array size to inverter. If I have a 300W module going into a 250W micro inverter, there will be times when the potential power output is clipped because the micro inverter can't handle all the power. I'm thinking cold day with 1000W/m2 irradiance. It is typical nowadays to have an STC array size to inverter ratio of 1.2. Have you seen any analysis on how much energy is clipped, vs how much energy output is increased by operating at a better efficiency spot on the micro inverter? This assumes that the micro inverter performs better when more fully loaded. Additionally over time the crystalline silicon module will degrade slightly as well, reducing the amount of power clipping. I welcome your thoughts. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Phone: 413 883-3144 Spirit Solar www.SpiritSolar.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 22:32:25 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 16:32:25 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clipping of microinverter output In-Reply-To: <003601d21de5$eaaa20a0$bffe61e0$@net> References: <003601d21de5$eaaa20a0$bffe61e0$@net> Message-ID: Over driving inverters is nothing new, l have seen shops with the old sma2500 push them to 3500 dc and still keep them under max voc and sure there will be some mid day clipping but the AM and PM increase are where the meat is. For the loss in cream off the top at mid day you get a bunch more power thtought the day. On Oct 3, 2016 4:20 PM, "Mike Kocsmiersky" wrote: > Recently I’ve been concerned about power clipping of micro inverters and > the design ratio of PV STC array size to inverter. If I have a 300W module > going into a 250W micro inverter, there will be times when the potential > power output is clipped because the micro inverter can’t handle all the > power. I’m thinking cold day with 1000W/m2 irradiance. It is typical > nowadays to have an STC array size to inverter ratio of 1.2. Have you seen > any analysis on how much energy is clipped, vs how much energy output is > increased by operating at a better efficiency spot on the micro inverter? > This assumes that the micro inverter performs better when more fully loaded. > > Additionally over time the crystalline silicon module will degrade > slightly as well, reducing the amount of power clipping. > > > > I welcome your thoughts. > > > > > > Mike Kocsmiersky > > Principal > > Phone: 413 883-3144 > > *Spirit Solar* > > www.SpiritSolar.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 4 08:08:51 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 08:08:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clipping of microinverter output In-Reply-To: <003601d21de5$eaaa20a0$bffe61e0$@net> References: <003601d21de5$eaaa20a0$bffe61e0$@net> Message-ID: This has been addressed several times on the list (check the archives). But the best source on this still in my opinion is Enphase's Module Right-Sizing white paper. There are regional variations that make a big difference. It's not so much about the inverter efficiency. It's about how much extra energy is produced at lower irradiance levels compared to lost energy from clipping. Look at the efficiency curve for the M250. It's flat. Efficiency really doesn't matter. http://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov/equipment/inverter_tests/summaries/Enphase%20Energy%20M250-72_2LL-S2X_240Vac.pdf And with PV prices creeping down to seemingly impossible low prices, it's really becoming less of a factor. 20% more module price may only result in 5% more system price, reducing any disincentive to oversize. Jason On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > Recently I’ve been concerned about power clipping of micro inverters and > the design ratio of PV STC array size to inverter. If I have a 300W module > going into a 250W micro inverter, there will be times when the potential > power output is clipped because the micro inverter can’t handle all the > power. I’m thinking cold day with 1000W/m2 irradiance. It is typical > nowadays to have an STC array size to inverter ratio of 1.2. Have you seen > any analysis on how much energy is clipped, vs how much energy output is > increased by operating at a better efficiency spot on the micro inverter? > This assumes that the micro inverter performs better when more fully loaded. > > Additionally over time the crystalline silicon module will degrade > slightly as well, reducing the amount of power clipping. > > > > I welcome your thoughts. > > > > > > Mike Kocsmiersky > > Principal > > Phone: 413 883-3144 > > *Spirit Solar* > > www.SpiritSolar.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Tue Oct 4 08:30:05 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 08:30:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clipping of microinverter output In-Reply-To: <003601d21de5$eaaa20a0$bffe61e0$@net> References: <003601d21de5$eaaa20a0$bffe61e0$@net> Message-ID: Mike, Have you read the Enphase white paper on module to inverter size? It goes into good detail on why they do it. http://www2.enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_White_Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > Recently I’ve been concerned about power clipping of micro inverters and > the design ratio of PV STC array size to inverter. If I have a 300W module > going into a 250W micro inverter, there will be times when the potential > power output is clipped because the micro inverter can’t handle all the > power. I’m thinking cold day with 1000W/m2 irradiance. It is typical > nowadays to have an STC array size to inverter ratio of 1.2. Have you seen > any analysis on how much energy is clipped, vs how much energy output is > increased by operating at a better efficiency spot on the micro inverter? > This assumes that the micro inverter performs better when more fully loaded. > > Additionally over time the crystalline silicon module will degrade > slightly as well, reducing the amount of power clipping. > > > > I welcome your thoughts. > > > > > > Mike Kocsmiersky > > Principal > > Phone: 413 883-3144 > > *Spirit Solar* > > www.SpiritSolar.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cpickard at aladdinsolar.com Tue Oct 4 12:17:43 2016 From: cpickard at aladdinsolar.com (cpickard aladdinsolar.com) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 11:17:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clipping of microinverter output In-Reply-To: References: <003601d21de5$eaaa20a0$bffe61e0$@net> Message-ID: <1812477235.2208.1475597863085@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> We find it can be very difficult (time consuming) to explain this to some customers. So we try to keep possibility of clipping to a minimum, maybe with obvious clipping occurring a few days a year. If module tilt or orientation is less than ideal, clipping is more rare and we might be more aggressive on the DC/AC ratio. This approach is not driven so much by the science but by the desire to avoid never-ending discussions with certain customer types. --Charlie Pickard TruNorth Solar > On October 4, 2016 at 7:30 AM Will White wrote: > > Mike, > > Have you read the Enphase white paper on module to inverter size? It goes into good detail on why they do it. > > http://www2.enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_White_Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf > > Thanks, > Will > > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org mailto:will at solarenergy.org > w: http://www.solarenergy.org/ > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > > > > > > Recently I’ve been concerned about power clipping of micro inverters and the design ratio of PV STC array size to inverter. If I have a 300W module going into a 250W micro inverter, there will be times when the potential power output is clipped because the micro inverter can’t handle all the power. I’m thinking cold day with 1000W/m2 irradiance. It is typical nowadays to have an STC array size to inverter ratio of 1.2. Have you seen any analysis on how much energy is clipped, vs how much energy output is increased by operating at a better efficiency spot on the micro inverter? This assumes that the micro inverter performs better when more fully loaded. > > > > Additionally over time the crystalline silicon module will degrade slightly as well, reducing the amount of power clipping. > > > > > > > > I welcome your thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Kocsmiersky > > > > Principal > > > > Phone: 413 883-3144 > > > > Spirit Solarhttp://www.SpiritSolar.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org mailto:will at solarenergy.org > w: http://www.solarenergy.org/ > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 4 15:23:58 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 15:23:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clipping of microinverter output In-Reply-To: <1812477235.2208.1475597863085@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> References: <003601d21de5$eaaa20a0$bffe61e0$@net> <1812477235.2208.1475597863085@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> Message-ID: Amen to that. It doesn't make sense to spend inordinate time agonizing over the right ratio, and consumers are skeptical anyway. Unless it's way under or over 1.0 it isn't going to make a huge difference. I did a sensitivity analysis on this when PV cost twice as much, and I found it still wasn't worth spending too much time on each site analysis. I just shoot for a ratio of 1.1 south and 1.2 east or west here where it's hot. In cooler climates 0.9 - 1.0 might make better sense, but I haven't done any cold weather work. ​Jason​ On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 12:17 PM, cpickard aladdinsolar.com < cpickard at aladdinsolar.com> wrote: > We find it can be very difficult (time consuming) to explain this to some > customers. So we try to keep possibility of clipping to a minimum, maybe > with obvious clipping occurring a few days a year. If module tilt or > orientation is less than ideal, clipping is more rare and we might be more > aggressive on the DC/AC ratio. This approach is not driven so much by the > science but by the desire to avoid never-ending discussions with certain > customer types. > > --Charlie Pickard > > TruNorth Solar > > > On October 4, 2016 at 7:30 AM Will White wrote: > > Mike, > > Have you read the Enphase white paper on module to inverter size? It goes > into good detail on why they do it. > > http://www2.enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_White_ > Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf > > Thanks, > Will > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Mike Kocsmiersky > wrote: > > Recently I’ve been concerned about power clipping of micro inverters and > the design ratio of PV STC array size to inverter. If I have a 300W module > going into a 250W micro inverter, there will be times when the potential > power output is clipped because the micro inverter can’t handle all the > power. I’m thinking cold day with 1000W/m2 irradiance. It is typical > nowadays to have an STC array size to inverter ratio of 1.2. Have you seen > any analysis on how much energy is clipped, vs how much energy output is > increased by operating at a better efficiency spot on the micro inverter? > This assumes that the micro inverter performs better when more fully loaded. > > Additionally over time the crystalline silicon module will degrade > slightly as well, reducing the amount of power clipping. > > > > I welcome your thoughts. > > > > > > Mike Kocsmiersky > > Principal > > Phone: 413 883-3144 > > *Spirit Solar* > > www.SpiritSolar.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Wed Oct 5 19:15:20 2016 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 18:15:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deep well submersible pump query Message-ID: <1e57578d-0cce-9f20-b69f-4180c9973531@aprsworld.com> Wrenches, I have a project that needs a deep well submersible pump. I want to find a pump that will be compatible with an off grid system, probably using a single or two in parallel Magnum MS4024PAE or MS4048PAE inverters. I usually using Grundfos SQ pumps for these applications. The soft starting SQ work wonderfully with the inverters with no brownouts during startup. But, in this case, the well is too deep for the SQ pumps. Well company is specifying 2HP, 4" diameter. Well is likely ending up 600ft deep, probably 400 to 500' deep pump, and needing to supply 10 GPM when running. Customer and I are most familiar with a standard pressure tank type system with pump turning on at low pressure and off at high pressure. Well driller, in an effort to provide system with a soft start, are encouraging a constant pressure system. I am not thrilled with the thought of the pump starting up constantly for somebody to brush their teeth or wash their. Or am I mis-understanding how constant pressure systems? Any recommendations for a 2 HP pump system that will have minimal starting surge (ie run happily on inverter power)? My brief searching shows I can do a capacitor start system (three wire, with control box on the surface) and do somewhat better than across the line starting. Or I can do a 3 phase pump and then manufacturer / pump specific VFD on the surface ... at the penalty of huge $ cost and high idle power on the VFD control (65 watts in the case of a Franklin drive!). Or I can use an off-the-shelf 3 phase pump, and an off the shelf line reactor and VFD combination. Thanks, -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From ray at solarray.com Wed Oct 5 19:46:01 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 17:46:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deep well submersible pump query In-Reply-To: <1e57578d-0cce-9f20-b69f-4180c9973531@aprsworld.com> References: <1e57578d-0cce-9f20-b69f-4180c9973531@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: <4b292df9-2dee-18f8-efa4-762f4aad6d5c@solarray.com> Constant pressure pumps are a much better set up. The Grundfos SQE is a great example. Your well driller is right on target. However, expecting 10 gpm from a 600 ft deep well off grid is overkill. I would compromise on that flow rate. 5 gpm will be plenty of water in most cases, outside of watering the garden. Once you have a system with constant 50 psi output, you will never want to go back to the old down to 30psi, up to 50 psi pressure variation. Also, you can save money and space by using a smaller pressure tank, if at all. The Franklin drives work as well, but they are also constant pressure. I didn't notice the high idle current on the VFD, we might have had that only turn on via a pressure switch. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/5/2016 5:15 PM, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > Wrenches, > > I have a project that needs a deep well submersible pump. I want to > find a pump that will be compatible with an off grid system, probably > using a single or two in parallel Magnum MS4024PAE or MS4048PAE > inverters. I usually using Grundfos SQ pumps for these applications. > The soft starting SQ work wonderfully with the inverters with no > brownouts during startup. > > But, in this case, the well is too deep for the SQ pumps. Well company > is specifying 2HP, 4" diameter. Well is likely ending up 600ft deep, > probably 400 to 500' deep pump, and needing to supply 10 GPM when > running. > > Customer and I are most familiar with a standard pressure tank type > system with pump turning on at low pressure and off at high pressure. > Well driller, in an effort to provide system with a soft start, are > encouraging a constant pressure system. I am not thrilled with the > thought of the pump starting up constantly for somebody to brush their > teeth or wash their. Or am I mis-understanding how constant pressure > systems? > > Any recommendations for a 2 HP pump system that will have minimal > starting surge (ie run happily on inverter power)? My brief searching > shows I can do a capacitor start system (three wire, with control box > on the surface) and do somewhat better than across the line starting. > Or I can do a 3 phase pump and then manufacturer / pump specific VFD > on the surface ... at the penalty of huge $ cost and high idle power > on the VFD control (65 watts in the case of a Franklin drive!). Or I > can use an off-the-shelf 3 phase pump, and an off the shelf line > reactor and VFD combination. > > Thanks, > > From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 10:26:34 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 08:26:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Phone Service Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I know we've discussed this recently, but yesterday I literally could not figure out out how to even get on phone hold for customer support with Enphase on their support number (877)797-4743. It kept saying that I needed to contact my local installer or referred me to the website and would hang up on me. Anyone have a good way to contact them as an installer? Its either a poorly constructed phone tree or it really isn't a tech support number. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Thu Oct 6 10:33:58 2016 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 14:33:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Phone Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's the number we use. You have to have your ID number and the site ID number as well. We've had fairly quick responses last couple of times. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mac Lewis Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2016 10:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Phone Service Hi Wrenches, I know we've discussed this recently, but yesterday I literally could not figure out out how to even get on phone hold for customer support with Enphase on their support number (877)797-4743. It kept saying that I needed to contact my local installer or referred me to the website and would hang up on me. Anyone have a good way to contact them as an installer? Its either a poorly constructed phone tree or it really isn't a tech support number. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 13:02:06 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 10:02:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hi voltage DC relays In-Reply-To: <4b292df9-2dee-18f8-efa4-762f4aad6d5c@solarray.com> References: <1e57578d-0cce-9f20-b69f-4180c9973531@aprsworld.com> <4b292df9-2dee-18f8-efa4-762f4aad6d5c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <42106113-3EA6-4B8F-B2A4-ACE4DE1C7AB9@gmail.com> Hi All, I”m looking for a DPDT relay. 150vdc 10 amps Coil voltage is flexible, 12vdc-230v/50hz. Any suggestions? thanks jay Peltz Power From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 13:36:34 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 07:36:34 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hi voltage DC relays In-Reply-To: References: <1e57578d-0cce-9f20-b69f-4180c9973531@aprsworld.com> <4b292df9-2dee-18f8-efa4-762f4aad6d5c@solarray.com> <42106113-3EA6-4B8F-B2A4-ACE4DE1C7AB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay We use contactors rated for either 600 vdc or 1000 vdc 12 volt coil no draw on or off rated for 250 amps or more. I am out of the office today but can get you info tomorrow if it someone doesnt get it for you first. Jerry On Oct 6, 2016 7:31 AM, "jay" wrote: Hi All, I”m looking for a DPDT relay. 150vdc 10 amps Coil voltage is flexible, 12vdc-230v/50hz. Any suggestions? thanks jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bzp at brick.net Thu Oct 6 13:37:53 2016 From: bzp at brick.net (frank -bz products) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 12:37:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hi voltage DC relays In-Reply-To: <42106113-3EA6-4B8F-B2A4-ACE4DE1C7AB9@gmail.com> References: <1e57578d-0cce-9f20-b69f-4180c9973531@aprsworld.com> <4b292df9-2dee-18f8-efa4-762f4aad6d5c@solarray.com> <42106113-3EA6-4B8F-B2A4-ACE4DE1C7AB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86135e3e-39f9-0c59-5dd4-812d1ce19920@brick.net> Try Mouser or Digi Key. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net On 10/6/2016 12:02 PM, jay wrote: > Hi All, > > I”m looking for a DPDT relay. > > 150vdc > 10 amps > > Coil voltage is flexible, 12vdc-230v/50hz. > > Any suggestions? > > thanks > > jay > > Peltz Power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corey at joule-energy.com Thu Oct 6 18:22:49 2016 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 17:22:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition Message-ID: We're looking for a way to transition from #6 PV wire to #8/#10 PV wire wye-harnesses. Unfortunately Multi-Contact doesn't seem to manufacture a #6-compatible MC4 connector. Has anyone else had to deal with this? or has any creative solutions? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Oct 6 19:23:22 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 17:23:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Could you use one of those insulated Ilsco terminal blocks (sorry, don't have a part number handy) to transition the #6 to short length of #8/10 then put your #8/10 connector on the short piece? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Oct 6, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > We're looking for a way to transition from #6 PV wire to #8/#10 PV wire wye-harnesses. Unfortunately Multi-Contact doesn't seem to manufacture a #6-compatible MC4 connector. Has anyone else had to deal with this? or has any creative solutions? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From august at luminalt.com Thu Oct 6 19:28:25 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 16:28:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My gut is that MC4 can’t handle the kind of current that you need for #6 wire. Why such large PV wire? August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Corey Shalanski *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2016 3:23 PM *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition We're looking for a way to transition from #6 PV wire to #8/#10 PV wire wye-harnesses. Unfortunately Multi-Contact doesn't seem to manufacture a #6-compatible MC4 connector. Has anyone else had to deal with this? or has any creative solutions? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Oct 6 19:30:03 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 16:30:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69cd34a88b7d184b19d13ecd1ce43185@mail.gmail.com> Corey: How about using a combiner? William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Corey Shalanski *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2016 3:23 PM *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition We're looking for a way to transition from #6 PV wire to #8/#10 PV wire wye-harnesses. Unfortunately Multi-Contact doesn't seem to manufacture a #6-compatible MC4 connector. Has anyone else had to deal with this? or has any creative solutions? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 19:52:46 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 19:52:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fused combiner in reverse. On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > We're looking for a way to transition from #6 PV wire to #8/#10 PV wire > wye-harnesses. Unfortunately Multi-Contact doesn't seem to manufacture a > #6-compatible MC4 connector. Has anyone else had to deal with this? or has > any creative solutions? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Oct 6 20:10:55 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 18:10:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a898319-e63b-882e-6638-00c17a831879@sindelarsolar.com> Corey, The Ilsco would work, but they're quite expensive and aren't likely rated for exposure to weather. While I don't have a solution, Brian or staff at PV Cables may if anyone does. 707 923-3000, www.pv-cables.com Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 10/6/2016 5:23 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Could you use one of those insulated Ilsco terminal blocks (sorry, don't have a part number handy) to transition the #6 to short length of #8/10 then put your #8/10 connector on the short piece? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > >> On Oct 6, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >> We're looking for a way to transition from #6 PV wire to #8/#10 PV wire wye-harnesses. Unfortunately Multi-Contact doesn't seem to manufacture a #6-compatible MC4 connector. Has anyone else had to deal with this? or has any creative solutions? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Joule Energy >> New Orleans, LA >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 07:24:29 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 07:24:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition In-Reply-To: <7a898319-e63b-882e-6638-00c17a831879@sindelarsolar.com> References: <7a898319-e63b-882e-6638-00c17a831879@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Waterproof enclosure, cable glands, DIN rail, DIN terminals, jumpers. Fuse if applicable. Build to suit your needs. On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Corey, > The Ilsco would work, but they're quite expensive and aren't likely rated > for exposure to weather. > While I don't have a solution, Brian or staff at PV Cables may if anyone > does. 707 923-3000, www.pv-cables.com > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 10/6/2016 5:23 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Could you use one of those insulated Ilsco terminal blocks (sorry, don't have a part number handy) to transition the #6 to short length of #8/10 then put your #8/10 connector on the short piece? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > > On Oct 6, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > We're looking for a way to transition from #6 PV wire to #8/#10 PV wire wye-harnesses. Unfortunately Multi-Contact doesn't seem to manufacture a #6-compatible MC4 connector. Has anyone else had to deal with this? or has any creative solutions? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Oct 7 07:24:24 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 07:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] #6 PV Wire Transition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <283435ebc84e2b8a18a9e7299cc67e04.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> This is what I would use, Corey. http://www.elecdirect.com/lug-compression-connectors/insulated-power-connectors/insulated-powerbar-4-14sol-single-sided-entry-3-conductors-clear?gclid=CIaN4KHKyM8CFURbhgodTlwGxA Daryl > We're looking for a way to transition from #6 PV wire to #8/#10 PV wire > wye-harnesses. Unfortunately Multi-Contact doesn't seem to manufacture a > #6-compatible MC4 connector. Has anyone else had to deal with this? or has > any creative solutions? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From william at millersolar.com Fri Oct 7 02:30:57 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 23:30:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stat-Power LCD Display Message-ID: <1343673c910992151a110f32e76617c7@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have 3 Stat Power 1800 watt inverters for our service trucks and 2 of them have broken displays. I can’t turn the inverters on without the display. Does anyone out there have a display they want to part with? Or, can these be repaired? Please contact me off-line, and thanks in advance. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Oct 7 12:46:02 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 12:46:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hi voltage DC relays In-Reply-To: <42106113-3EA6-4B8F-B2A4-ACE4DE1C7AB9@gmail.com> References: <1e57578d-0cce-9f20-b69f-4180c9973531@aprsworld.com> <4b292df9-2dee-18f8-efa4-762f4aad6d5c@solarray.com> <42106113-3EA6-4B8F-B2A4-ACE4DE1C7AB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301d220ba$4ae12280$e0a36780$@burt@glbcc.com> http://www.gigavac.com/node/9419 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2016 1:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] hi voltage DC relays Hi All, I”m looking for a DPDT relay. 150vdc 10 amps Coil voltage is flexible, 12vdc-230v/50hz. Any suggestions? thanks jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From solarsisterj at yahoo.com Sat Oct 8 03:38:00 2016 From: solarsisterj at yahoo.com (solarsisterj) Date: RANDOM_Sat, 8 Oct 2016 10:38:00 +0300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: some more nice stuff Message-ID: <000022f3f2c2$11c2ac0c$c13d0054$@yahoo.com> Hello! I've found a great place with a lot of cool stuff that may interest you, please take a look Yours truly, solarsisterj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 18:52:26 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 15:52:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] pozi drive In-Reply-To: <57f7db83.c151620a.8c57f.c99fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <1e57578d-0cce-9f20-b69f-4180c9973531@aprsworld.com> <4b292df9-2dee-18f8-efa4-762f4aad6d5c@solarray.com> <42106113-3EA6-4B8F-B2A4-ACE4DE1C7AB9@gmail.com> <57f7db83.c151620a.8c57f.c99fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: HI All, In looking at the CBI breaker cut sheets, they specify a Pozidrive combi head tip. I know what I Pozi drive tip is and thats what I use, but I can’t find out anything on the combi head tip. I know that there is a square(robinson)/straight combi head out there. Anybody know and if there is such a tip, where to get one? thanks jay Peltz Power From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sun Oct 9 21:27:55 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (maverick at mavericksolar.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 20:27:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] pozi drive In-Reply-To: References: <1e57578d-0cce-9f20-b69f-4180c9973531@aprsworld.com> <4b292df9-2dee-18f8-efa4-762f4aad6d5c@solarray.com> <42106113-3EA6-4B8F-B2A4-ACE4DE1C7AB9@gmail.com> <57f7db83.c151620a.8c57f.c99fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Klein makes one and I got it at HomeDepot. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 9, 2016, at 5:52 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > In looking at the CBI breaker cut sheets, they specify a Pozidrive combi head tip. > > I know what I Pozi drive tip is and thats what I use, but I can’t find out anything on the combi head tip. > > I know that there is a square(robinson)/straight combi head out there. > > Anybody know and if there is such a tip, where to get one? > > thanks > > jay > > Peltz Power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 10 17:55:16 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 14:55:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner Message-ID: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? Thanks in advance, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 18:39:57 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 18:39:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 > remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into > charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main > breaker and onto a large battery bank. > > > > I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers > on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is > an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through > the GSLC cabinets. > > > > I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers > with studs on the back. > > > > Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 10 19:40:46 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:40:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris: Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We always use the GSLC cabinets. I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block other components. See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a good scenario. We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent with the design. We run all AC leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front. I think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location. Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create better, safer and more efficient installations. Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished” looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but one example of one of our installs. And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase. Please, let’s keep it professional. Sincerely, William Miller Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? Thanks in advance, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 49296 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18154 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 20:20:34 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 17:20:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I”ll chime in here. Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL. What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them. Allows for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers. With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated. jay peltz power > On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Chris: > > Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We always use the GSLC cabinets. I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block other components. See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a good scenario. > > We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent with the design. We run all AC leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front. I think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location. > > Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create better, safer and more efficient installations. > > Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished” looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but one example of one of our installs. > > And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase. Please, let’s keep it professional. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > > Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC > > > > Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Chris Mason > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner > > The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller > wrote: >> Friends: >> >> I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. >> >> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. >> >> I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. >> >> Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 22:40:14 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:40:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted. Jerry On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" wrote: > I”ll chime in here. > > Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. > However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together > something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be > UL. > > What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This allows > much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the > terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the > breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs > facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them. Allows > for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the > plate/breakers. With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know > they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs > are insulated. > > jay > peltz power > > > On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Chris: > > > Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We always use the > GSLC cabinets. I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the > cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block > other components. See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked > to work in. Not a good scenario. > > > We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the > problems inherent with the design. We run all AC leads to adjacent load > centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our > goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front. I > think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make > connections in a hard to reach location. > > > Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create > better, safer and more efficient installations. > > > Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished” > looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean > as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but one example of one of our > installs. > > > And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase. Please, > let’s keep it professional. > > > Sincerely, > > > William Miller > > > > > Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC > > > > > Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner > > > The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer > will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function > in. > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 > remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into > charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main > breaker and onto a large battery bank. > > > I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers > on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is > an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through > the GSLC cabinets. > > > I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers > with studs on the back. > > > Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? > > > Thanks in advance, > > > William Miller > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Oct 10 23:10:56 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 21:10:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jerry, I don't think that QOs or QOUs would work. I believe that all are rated=20 only to 50V DC, unless that longtime dual rating has recently changed.=20 As the Radian is only available in 48V, any DC conductors would exceed=20 this. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 10/10/2016 8:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc=20 > rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted. > Jerry > > > On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" > wrote: > > I=E2=80=9Dll chime in here. > > Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. > However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put > together something that would work with Airpax breakers together, > but it wouldn=E2=80=99t be UL. > > What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This > allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less > stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to > the back of the breakers then you can and I=E2=80=99ve seen outback d= o it, > install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver > or allen key on them. Allows for installation and removal of wire > without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers. With > thimbles of course. And I can=E2=80=99t find them but I know they make > them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are > insulated. > > jay > peltz power > > >> On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller >> > wrote: >> >> Chris: >> >> Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We >> always use the GSLC cabinets. I just don=E2=80=99t like the design >> concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that >> are difficult to access and block other components. See photo >> below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a >> good scenario. >> >> We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that >> minimizes the problems inherent with the design. We run all AC >> leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC >> breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to completely eliminate >> all breakers from the removable dead-front. I think it is pretty >> self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in >> a hard to reach location. >> >> Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to >> create better, safer and more efficient installations. >> >> Also, I don=E2=80=99t need someone to instruct me on how to make a >> =E2=80=9Cfinished=E2=80=9D looking install. If you are familiar with= my work you >> know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but >> one example of one of our installs. >> >> And lastly, =E2=80=9Csuck it up=E2=80=9D is not a very complimentary= phrase.=20 >> Please, let=E2=80=99s keep it professional. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC >> >> >> >> Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ]*On Behalf >> Of*Chris Mason >> *Sent:*Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM >> *To:*RE-wrenches > > >> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner >> >> The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the >> customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect >> world we function in. >> >> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller >> > wrote: >>> Friends: >>> >>> I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs >>> from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP >>> circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough >>> breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large >>> battery bank. >>> >>> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install >>> DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing >>> away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see >>> no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. >>> >>> I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel >>> mounted breakers with studs on the back. >>> >>> Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenc= hes.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer=E2=84=A2 >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli= st.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wapalco at rockisland.com Mon Oct 10 23:25:58 2016 From: wapalco at rockisland.com (Jason Lerner) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 20:25:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64FF576B-0766-4C79-8BB7-5762863764D4@rockisland.com> Hello William, How about using an Outback Flexware 500/1000 AC circuit breaker box with DC rated DIN rail mounted breakers? The Main breaker might need to live in the GSLC though….. Best, Jason Lerner Waldron Power and Light Co. > On Oct 10, 2016, at 2:55 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. > > I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. > > I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. > > Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? > > Thanks in advance, > > William Miller > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 10 23:29:20 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 21:29:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This thread actually brings up issues I've struggled with for years too. QOs are really not good for over 50 v. The panel mount QOUs are=20 really expensive and special order. I believe they're only good to 125=20 vdc, so that not much help with higher voltage arrays. There are much better breakers available for DC now. The problem is=20 mounting them. Panel mount DC breakers are a PITA to wire blind, but that's how most=20 enclosures like Outback's work. This isn't just an installers whining=20 either, I have a repair call right now from a loose rear breaker=20 connection from another installer. It charred the wire for 6" and=20 melted the breaker. Midnite usually saves the day on stuff like this, but their Mini and=20 Quad boxes are too small for wire over #6, and I just can't recommend=20 the MNDC 15, because again, its just to tight and hard to access the=20 breaker rear connections. Their Mini DC box is decent, and mounts the=20 post style breakers sideways for better access. I use it for many more=20 custom things. I also use their MNPV 6 combiner as an indoor DC load=20 center. I don't like the plastic front, but its the right size and can=20 mount most DIN rail breakers. I still dream of a DC box the size of the MNPV 6 or QO 6 circuit load=20 center that mounted DIN rail on the front with a metal cover plate, and=20 mounted the panel mount breakers on the sides. Seems like a simple=20 enough concept, but no one will build it. I would use it for DC distribution, but primarily as WIlliam's need: a=20 recombiner for in and out for several Charge controllers. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/10/2016 8:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc=20 > rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted. > Jerry > > > On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" > wrote: > > I=E2=80=9Dll chime in here. > > Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. > However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put > together something that would work with Airpax breakers together, > but it wouldn=E2=80=99t be UL. > > What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This > allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less > stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to > the back of the breakers then you can and I=E2=80=99ve seen outback d= o it, > install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver > or allen key on them. Allows for installation and removal of wire > without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers. With > thimbles of course. And I can=E2=80=99t find them but I know they make > them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are > insulated. > > jay > peltz power > > >> On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller >> > wrote: >> >> Chris: >> >> Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We >> always use the GSLC cabinets. I just don=E2=80=99t like the design >> concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that >> are difficult to access and block other components. See photo >> below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a >> good scenario. >> >> We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that >> minimizes the problems inherent with the design. We run all AC >> leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC >> breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to completely eliminate >> all breakers from the removable dead-front. I think it is pretty >> self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in >> a hard to reach location. >> >> Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to >> create better, safer and more efficient installations. >> >> Also, I don=E2=80=99t need someone to instruct me on how to make a >> =E2=80=9Cfinished=E2=80=9D looking install. If you are familiar with= my work you >> know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but >> one example of one of our installs. >> >> And lastly, =E2=80=9Csuck it up=E2=80=9D is not a very complimentary= phrase.=20 >> Please, let=E2=80=99s keep it professional. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC >> >> >> >> Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ]*On Behalf >> Of*Chris Mason >> *Sent:*Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM >> *To:*RE-wrenches > > >> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner >> >> The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the >> customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect >> world we function in. >> >> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller >> > wrote: >>> Friends: >>> >>> I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs >>> from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP >>> circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough >>> breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large >>> battery bank. >>> >>> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install >>> DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing >>> away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see >>> no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. >>> >>> I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel >>> mounted breakers with studs on the back. >>> >>> Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenc= hes.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer=E2=84=A2 >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli= st.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 23:31:09 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 22:31:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter to our package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted. > Jerry > > >> On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" wrote: >> I”ll chime in here. >> >> Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. >> However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL. >> >> What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them. Allows for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers. With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated. >> >> jay >> peltz power >> >> >>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> >>> Chris: >>> >>> Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We always use the GSLC cabinets. I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block other components. See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a good scenario. >>> >>> We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent with the design. We run all AC leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front. I think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location. >>> >>> Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create better, safer and more efficient installations. >>> >>> Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished” looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but one example of one of our installs. >>> >>> And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase. Please, let’s keep it professional. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC >>> >>> >>> >>> Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. >>> >>> >>> >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason >>> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner >>> >>> The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. >>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller wrote: >>>> Friends: >>>> >>>> I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. >>>> >>>> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. >>>> >>>> I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. >>>> >>>> Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance, >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lic 773985 >>>> millersolar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Mason >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>> >>> www.cometsolar.com >>> 264.235.5670 >>> 869.662.5670 >>> Skype: netconcepts >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 11 01:31:07 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 22:31:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44b1f9542d2696e741d0fab8a9987dbd@mail.gmail.com> Jay: I wouldn’t go so far as to say the GSLC is a piece of junk. It does have some flaws, however, particularly the breaker wiring. I informed Outback of the shortcomings soon after it came out but no improvements have been made. We work around the breaker problem with a few procedures: 1. We remove all AC breakers. We install off-the-shelf QO panels immediately adjacent to the GSLC and install all AC breakers in two or three panels: Grid fed (if applicable), generator fed and inverter fed. We handle bypass switching with a custom interlock in the inverter fed panel. I just this weekend finished a jig for a router that will make precise slots in aluminum plate to make sliding interlocks. See photo below (hope they come through). 2. The added benefit is if you want to add an AC breaker, you do not have to provide a jumper for each pole. 3. We use the minimum quantity of DC Breakers in the GSLC. If we can move combiners indoors and near the charge controllers, and have 6 circuits or less, we label the PV breakers as CC input disconnects. If we have more than 6 circuits, we add a 60 or 80 amp breaker to the comb and label it as a disconnect. We drill out the screw holes in the covers so they can be removed without a tool to access the breakers. 4. We clamp the dead-front in a bench vise with the studs facing up and prewire the breakers with extra wire. We can then slip the dead-front in place without having to work behind it. See photo below: And yes, neither QO nor QOU breakers are suitable for 48 volt applications. While they are factory rated for 125VDC, they are UL rated to only 45 BDC, if my memory is correct. I am starting to believe the MNDC15 might actually be a slick choice. At first I thought the form factor was awkward, but in CADing the design, I see three FM charge controllers will fit right above it. We always use 6 or 8 inch gutters in our equipment rooms. We can come out of the gutter with one or two 3” EMT nipples into the MNDC15, and then out of the top of the MNDC15 with two 1” EMT nipples into each of three charge controllers. We can run straight out of the MNDC15 into the battery bus bars. The MNDC will hold the PV shunt as well. I can prewire the breakers with long pigtails and land them in the CCs above or the busses within. With external DC and AC panels, the only breakers in the GSLC are the inverter breakers. Makes for a much easier to wire installation. And it makes better sense to separate the AC and DC breakers. If I give it a go, I will report back on my results. Thanks to everyone for the input. William PS: Our last two GSLCs came with some problems: The shunt supports a long, heavy bus bar. One box had been dropped and the shock broke the plastic base of the shunt. Both units were missing the A and B bus bars and one was missing the hardware package. Outback totally dropped the ball on replacements. I did ferret out the manufacturer’s contact information and they came through with flying colors, sending me replacement parts immediately. I was told this is not an uncommon problem of late. Moral of the story: unbox your GSLCs and inventory the parts before you head to the job. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *jay *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 5:21 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner I”ll chime in here. Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL. What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them. Allows for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers. With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated. jay peltz power On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller wrote: Chris: Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We always use the GSLC cabinets. I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block other components. See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a good scenario. We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent with the design. We run all AC leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front. I think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location. Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create better, safer and more efficient installations. Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished” looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but one example of one of our installs. And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase. Please, let’s keep it professional. Sincerely, William Miller *Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC* *Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..* Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? Thanks in advance, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45638 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17601 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 11 00:52:41 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 21:52:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: <64FF576B-0766-4C79-8BB7-5762863764D4@rockisland.com> References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> <64FF576B-0766-4C79-8BB7-5762863764D4@rockisland.com> Message-ID: Jason: I thought of this but I can find no DIN rail mounted breakers that perform a GFDI function and are rated for 60 or 80 amps continuous. Do you know of any? Midnite has a 63 amp unit, but this won’t work for FM80 controllers, and if it is not rated for continuous duty, it won’t work for an FM60 either. We have used an Outback Flexware 1000 DC Cabinets for recombiners. They have the same issue with back wiring but there is more room William PS: I was on the island a couple of weeks ago. Sorry I did not run into you. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Lerner *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 8:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner Hello William, How about using an Outback Flexware 500/1000 AC circuit breaker box with DC rated DIN rail mounted breakers? The Main breaker might need to live in the GSLC though….. Best, Jason Lerner Waldron Power and Light Co. On Oct 10, 2016, at 2:55 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? Thanks in advance, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From abe at solforce.com Tue Oct 11 14:35:18 2016 From: abe at solforce.com (Abe Powell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 11:35:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Connector Issue Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, It has come to our attention that enphase is shipping micro-inverters labeled "LL-2" (MC4 CONNECTOR) that actually come with Amphenol Connectors. We have received a number of boxes like this. Enphase says the connectors are compatible MC4 to Amphenol We can't find a document showing that this is a UL Listed connection. Can anyone confirm that a MC4 to Amphenol connection is UL Listed? Best regards, Abe ----------------------------- John Abraham Powell CEO - Solforce E. abe at solforce.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:20:43 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:20:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Connector Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2BC02448-8468-44D8-9754-B989BC2E47C6@gmail.com> They are not compatible nor UL listed. I can dig up the official MC paper if you need Jay Peltz power. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 11, 2016, at 11:35 AM, Abe Powell wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > It has come to our attention that enphase is shipping micro-inverters labeled "LL-2" (MC4 CONNECTOR) that actually come with Amphenol Connectors. We have received a number of boxes like this. > > Enphase says the connectors are compatible MC4 to Amphenol > > We can't find a document showing that this is a UL Listed connection. > > Can anyone confirm that a MC4 to Amphenol connection is UL Listed? > > Best regards, > > Abe > ----------------------------- > John Abraham Powell > CEO - Solforce > E. abe at solforce.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 11 17:07:14 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:07:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Message-ID: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> Friends: We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC. If anyone is interested, direct your browser to: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone out there. I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my trade secrets. Sincerely, William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:58:02 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 17:58:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds In-Reply-To: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I forwarded your page to the Outback engineering team responsible for the Radian, hopefully your detailed analysis will give them some food for thought. I tend to agree with you, I would always use an external AC panel. On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 5:07 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to > illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC. If anyone is > interested, direct your browser to: > > > > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html > > > > I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to > someone out there. I always try to give back to the industry by sharing > some of my trade secrets. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Oct 11 23:55:19 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 21:55:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds In-Reply-To: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <067e4378-3f7c-8446-bb89-ab61522d7581@solarray.com> Nice work William, thanks for posting all this info. That issue with mounting the Mate 3 is just ridiculous, I totally agree they need to make an adapter to interface with regular boxes. They can sell it separately. In the 90s it was understood we had to fab our own solutions, but at this point in solar history, we really should have better off the shelf solutions for standard projects. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/11/2016 3:07 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page > to illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC. If anyone is > interested, direct your browser to: > > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html > > I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to > someone out there. I always try to give back to the industry by > sharing some of my trade secrets. > > Sincerely, > > William > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Oct 12 09:35:41 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:35:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20161012133553.13F8210BAF@che.dreamhost.com> DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for many commercial and industrial applications. The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the cost of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box. The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reason to require anything other than standard code requirements. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote: >My students we just today complaining about the >access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The >lug idea with separators might be a fix. It >definitely needs to be done differently. In >class We added another inverter to our package >and trying to install another 175A breaker was a >pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there >already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible. > >Jesse Dahl > >NABCEP PV Installation Professional >IBEW Local 292 - Electrician >Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer ><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: > >>You might want to look at the square D QO >>breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted. >>Jerry >> >>On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" >><jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote: >>I”ll chime in here. >> >>Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. >>However it is UL listed for the job. And while >>you could put together something that would >>work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL. >> >>What I do is to swap out all the wires to >>Arctic ultra flex. This allows much better >>movement of the wires with significantly less >>stress on the terminals. And if you want to >>not attach wires to the back of the breakers >>then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, >>install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can >>use a screwdriver or allen key on them. Allows >>for installation and removal of wire without >>removal of the breaker or the >>plate/breakers. With thimbles of course. And I >>can’t find them but I know they make them, >>shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated. >> >>jay >>peltz power >> >> >>>On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller >>><william at millersolar.com> wrote: >>> >>>Chris: >>> >>> >>>Thank you for the reply. I think you >>>misunderstand me. We always use the GSLC >>>cabinets. I just don’t like the design >>>concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and >>>DC breakers that are difficult to access and >>>block other components. See photo below of a >>>prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a good scenario. >>> >>> >>>We have created an installation standard using >>>the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent >>>with the design. We run all AC leads to >>>adjacent load centers and we try to minimize >>>the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our >>>goal to completely eliminate all breakers from >>>the removable dead-front. I think it is >>>pretty self-explanatory why one would not >>>prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location. >>> >>> >>>Our goal is to constantly improve our >>>installation procedures to create better, >>>safer and more efficient installations. >>> >>> >>>Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on >>>how to make a “finished” looking install. >>>If you are familiar with my work you know it >>>is as clean as it gets. Review my web >>>site. Below is but one example of one of our installs. >>> >>> >>>And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very >>>complimentary phrase. Please, let’s keep it professional. >>> >>> >>>Sincerely, >>> >>> >>>William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. >>> >>> >>> >>>Lic 773985 >>>millersolar.com >>>805-438-5600 >>> >>> >>>From: RE-wrenches >>>[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason >>>Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM >>>To: RE-wrenches >>><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner >>> >>> >>>The GSLC gives the system a nice finished >>>appearance that the customer will understand. >>>Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. >>> >>> >>>On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William >>>Miller <william at millersolar.com> wrote: >>>>Friends: >>>> >>>> >>>>I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to >>>>accept the outputs from 3 remote PV >>>>Combiners, send those outputs through GFP >>>>circuit breakers, into charge controllers, >>>>back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, >>>>through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. >>>> >>>> >>>>I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I >>>>refuse to install DC breakers on their >>>>dead-front because wiring to studs facing >>>>away from the front is an inferior >>>>design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV >>>>circuits through the GSLC cabinets. >>>> >>>> >>>>I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, >>>>these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. >>>> >>>> >>>>Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? >>>> >>>> >>>>Thanks in advance, >>>> >>>> >>>>William Miller >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Lic 773985 >>>>millersolar.com >>>>805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>>List Address: >>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Chris Mason >>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>>Solar Design Engineer >>>Generac Generators Industrial technician >>> >>> >>>www.cometsolar.com >>>264.235.5670 >>>869.662.5670 >>>Skype: netconcepts >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Oct 12 13:15:12 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 17:15:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds In-Reply-To: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18850eddd61646e0b0f4a07117c543f7@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Thank you very much for sharing this. Reinforces my avoidance of the Outback Radian line. Given there are other products on the market that perform the same functions, with the added bonus of wiring cabinet design that is actually safe and easy to work on without many hrs of re-design work, I don't see any advantages to this product line. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: October-11-16 2:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Friends: We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC. If anyone is interested, direct your browser to: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone out there. I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my trade secrets. Sincerely, William [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1559 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Oct 12 13:36:49 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:36:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds In-Reply-To: <18850eddd61646e0b0f4a07117c543f7@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> <18850eddd61646e0b0f4a07117c543f7@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: Kevin: I am curious, what brand would you prefer over the Radian that has wiring cabinet design that is “safe and easy to work on”? I hope everyone understands I generally like the GSLC and the Radian line. The Radian BOS available is superior to that of most other brands, the Sunny Island line, for example, which has no BOS at all. With some intelligent design and a few tips and tricks, the Radian can make a very nice install. William PS: I am increasingly excited to try the Midnite MNDC15. Although it has the same problem with back-wired breakers, it allows one to move all PV disconnects to a point adjacent to the charge controllers. This removes the last breaker froth GSLC other than the inverter breakers. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg *Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:15 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Thank you very much for sharing this. Reinforces my avoidance of the Outback Radian line. Given there are other products on the market that perform the same functions, with the added bonus of wiring cabinet design that is actually safe and easy to work on without many hrs of re-design work, I don't see any advantages to this product line. Kevin *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* October-11-16 2:07 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Friends: We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC. If anyone is interested, direct your browser to: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone out there. I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my trade secrets. Sincerely, William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1300 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Oct 12 14:36:51 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 11:36:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: <20161012133553.13F8210BAF@che.dreamhost.com> References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> <20161012133553.13F8210BAF@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake: Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet: 1. In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all you got, and it was grossly inadequate. Off-the-shelf load centers were the only choice for the AC side. AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but it could be done. 2. Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of inverters (the PS series). I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this design and it was genius. 3. Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been discussing. There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our discussion drives more of that. I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative. They are cheap and readily available. Generally two load centers are required, one for generator fed and one for inverter fed. GTBB systems might call for a third panel: utility fed. Bypass is the only issue that calls for considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center installations. Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock methods. Where we need to interlock more than two breakers we fab our own slides. Sure, they are not “listed” but they are a simple mechanical device and I am comfortable using them. There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized inverter equipment with standard electrical components. For example, connecting standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because the FX KOs are so far from the mounting surface. This is the part of the work that I enjoy immensely. We really want to make installations that are reliable, efficient to install and look good. I have a friend in the entertainment industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing installation are more reliable…” True words. Thanks for you input. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for many commercial and industrial applications. The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the cost of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box. The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reason to require anything other than standard code requirements. Drake Chamberlin *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote: My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter to our package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted. Jerry On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" wrote: I†ll chime in here. Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL. What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them. Allows for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers. With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated. jay peltz power On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller wrote: Chris: Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We always use the GSLC cabinets. I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block other components. See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a good scenario. We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent with the design. We run all AC leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front. I think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location. Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create better, safer and more efficient installations. Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished†looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but one example of one of our installs. And lastly, “suck it up†is not a very complimentary phrase. Please, let’s keep it professional. Sincerely, William Miller Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? Thanks in advance, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 15:30:57 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 12:30:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds In-Reply-To: References: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> <18850eddd61646e0b0f4a07117c543f7@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <7A98A974-DC12-4399-A938-904E236663D2@gmail.com> HI William, The SI does indeed have a BOS. Made by midnite solar which worked with SMA to produce it. Jay Peltz Power > On Oct 12, 2016, at 10:36 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Kevin: > > I am curious, what brand would you prefer over the Radian that has wiring cabinet design that is “safe and easy to work on”? > > I hope everyone understands I generally like the GSLC and the Radian line. The Radian BOS available is superior to that of most other brands, the Sunny Island line, for example, which has no BOS at all. With some intelligent design and a few tips and tricks, the Radian can make a very nice install. > > William > > PS: I am increasingly excited to try the Midnite MNDC15. Although it has the same problem with back-wired breakers, it allows one to move all PV disconnects to a point adjacent to the charge controllers. This removes the last breaker froth GSLC other than the inverter breakers. > > Wm > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:15 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds > > Thank you very much for sharing this. Reinforces my avoidance of the Outback Radian line. Given there are other products on the market that perform the same functions, with the added bonus of wiring cabinet design that is actually safe and easy to work on without many hrs of re-design work, I don't see any advantages to this product line. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: October-11-16 2:07 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds > > Friends: > > We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC. If anyone is interested, direct your browser to: > > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html > > I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone out there. I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my trade secrets. > > Sincerely, > > William > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 16:06:45 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 16:06:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> <20161012133553.13F8210BAF@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <524620FD-6D00-4C9C-B2DC-B1A2E5790E2E@gmail.com> I think the designer was Robin Gudgel for the BOS gear Bob Gudgel is the genius behind the MX and Classic and other electronics but my memory could be incorrect From my point of view they both qualify as geniuses ! Bob Ellison > On Oct 12, 2016, at 2:36 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Drake: > > Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet: > > 1. In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all you got, and it was grossly inadequate. Off-the-shelf load centers were the only choice for the AC side. AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but it could be done. > 2. Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of inverters (the PS series). I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this design and it was genius. > 3. Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been discussing. There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our discussion drives more of that. > > I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative. They are cheap and readily available. Generally two load centers are required, one for generator fed and one for inverter fed. GTBB systems might call for a third panel: utility fed. Bypass is the only issue that calls for considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center installations. Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock methods. Where we need to interlock more than two breakers we fab our own slides. Sure, they are not “listed” but they are a simple mechanical device and I am comfortable using them. > > There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized inverter equipment with standard electrical components. For example, connecting standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because the FX KOs are so far from the mounting surface. This is the part of the work that I enjoy immensely. We really want to make installations that are reliable, efficient to install and look good. I have a friend in the entertainment industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing installation are more reliable…” True words. > > Thanks for you input. > > William > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner > > DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for many commercial and industrial applications. > > The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the cost of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box. > > The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reason to require anything other than standard code requirements. > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote: > > My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter to our package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > > You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted. > Jerry > > On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" wrote: > I†ll chime in here. > > Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. > However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL. > > What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them. Allows for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers. With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated. > > jay > peltz power > > > > On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Chris: > > > Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We always use the GSLC cabinets. I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block other components. See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a good scenario. > > > We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent with the design. We run all AC leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front. I think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location. > > > Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create better, safer and more efficient installations. > > > Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished†looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but one example of one of our installs. > > > And lastly, “suck it up†is not a very complimentary phrase. Please, let’s keep it professional. > > > Sincerely, > > > William Miller > > > > > Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC > > > > > Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM > To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner > > > The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > > I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. > > > I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets. > > > I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. > > > Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? > > > Thanks in advance, > > > William Miller > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 17:51:04 2016 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 15:51:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In search of an awesome PV shade structure Message-ID: Good afternoon wrenches! Does anyone know of a custom fabricator who might be able to manufacture a shade structure that meets the following criteria for a project in NJ? - fully protects anything underneath from the elements, preferably with some type of weatherproof membrane under the array - incorporates a gutter (or similar) to address runoff and snow sloughing - can support ~40kW of PV in a footprint approximating a square, with columns at the 4 corners - aesthetically pleasing Thanks in advance! - Andrew "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Oct 12 18:44:10 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 18:44:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> <20161012133553.13F8210BAF@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20161012224502.BB1181061F@che.dreamhost.com> Right, the old Trace DC cabinets were bloody knuckle boxes for sure. Things have come a long way since those days, and still have a ways to go. At 02:36 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote: >Drake: > >Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet: > >1.   In the good old days of the SW >inverter, the DC cabinet was all you got, and it >was grossly inadequate. Off-the-shelf load >centers were the only choice for the AC >side. AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but it could be done. >2.   Prior to having an approved inverter, >Outback manufactured a brilliant system of BOS >that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series >of inverters (the PS series). I believe BoB >Gudgel is responsible for this design and it was genius. >3.   Even with improved BOS, there are the >shortcomings we have been discussing. There is >always room for improvement and I am hoping our discussion drives more of that. > >I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the >superior alternative. They are cheap and >readily available. Generally two load centers >are required, one for generator fed and one for >inverter fed. GTBB systems might call for a >third panel: utility fed. Bypass is the only >issue that calls for considerations out of the >ordinary for standard load center >installations. Most panel manufacturers >provide limited interlock methods. Where we >need to interlock more than two breakers we fab >our own slides. Sure, they are not >“listed” but they are a simple mechanical >device and I am comfortable using them. > >There are some challenges to overcome when >integrating specialized inverter equipment with >standard electrical components. For example, >connecting standard load centers to an FX >inverter is problematic because the FX KOs are >so far from the mounting surface. This is the >part of the work that I enjoy immensely. We >really want to make installations that are >reliable, efficient to install and look >good. I have a friend in the entertainment >industry that once said, “aesthetically >pleasing installation are more reliable ” True words. > > >Thanks for you input. > >William > > >Gradient Cap_mini > >Lic 773985 >millersolar.com >805-438-5600 > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM >To: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner > >DC breaker systems should be designed similar to >AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for >many commercial and industrial applications. > >The explanation for the fact that these don't >exist has to do with the cost of designing and >listing the equipment. There is no technical >reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more >difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box. > >The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should >certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the >power has been inverted to AC, there is no >reason to require anything other than standard code requirements. > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote: > >My students we just today complaining about the >access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The >lug idea with separators might be a fix. It >definitely needs to be done differently. In >class We added another inverter to our package >and trying to install another 175A breaker was a >pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there >already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible. > >Jesse Dahl > >NABCEP PV Installation Professional >IBEW Local 292 - Electrician >Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer ><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com > wrote: > > >You might want to look at the square D QO >breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted. >Jerry > >On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" ><jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote: >I†ll chime in here.< >Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. >However it is UL listed for the job. And while >you could put together something that would work >with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL. > >What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic >ultra flex. This allows much better movement >of the wires with significantly less stress on >the terminals.  And if you want to not attach >wires to the back of the breakers then you can >and I’ve seen outback do it,it, install lay >in lugs facing outwards so you can use a >screwdriver or allen key on them. Allows for >installation and removal of wire without removal >of the breaker or the plate/breakers. With >thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but >I know they make them, shielields that fit >between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated. >jay >peltz power > > > >On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller ><william at millersolar.com > wrote: >Chris: > >Thank you for the reply. I think you >misunderstand me. We always use the GSLC >cabinets. I just don’t like the design >conceptept that clutters the cabinet with AC and >DC breakers that are difficult to access and >block other components. See photo below of a >prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a good scenario. > >We have created an installation standard using >the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent >with the design. We run all AC leads to >adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the >DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to >completely eliminate all breakers from the >removable dead-front. I think it is pretty >self-explanatory why one would not prefer to >make connections in a hard to reach location. > >Our goal is to constantly improve our >installation procedures to create better, safer >and more efficient installations. > >Also, I don’t need someone to instructuct me >on how to make a “finished†looking ing >install. If you are familiar with my work you >know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web >site. Below is but one example of one of our installs. > >And lastly, “suck it up†is nos not a very >complimentary phrase. Please, let’s ks keep it professional. > >Sincerely, > >William Miller > > >Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC > > >Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. > > >Lic 773985 >millersolar.com >805-438-5600 > >From: RE-wrenches [ >mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason >Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM >To: RE-wrenches >< re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner > >The GSLC gives the system a nice finished >appearance that the customer will understand. >Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. > >On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller ><william at millersolar.com > wrote: > >Friends: > >I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to >accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, >send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, >into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, >into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank. > >I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I >refuse to install DC breakers on their >dead-front because wiring to studs facing away >from the front is an inferior >design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV >circuits through the GSLC cabinets. > >I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these >use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back. > >Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? > >Thanks in advance, > >William Miller > > > >Lic 773985 >millersolar.com >805-438-5600 > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >-- >Chris Mason >NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >Solar Design Engineer >Generac Generators Industrial technician > >www.cometsolar.com >264.235.5670 >869.662.5670 >Skype: netconcepts >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > >Avast logo > > >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >www.avast.com > > >Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" >Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" >Content-ID: >X-Attachment-Id: 53cec85809fc3170_0.1 > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20f86209.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Oct 12 18:51:14 2016 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 18:51:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: <20161012224502.BB1181061F@che.dreamhost.com> References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> <20161012133553.13F8210BAF@che.dreamhost.com> <20161012224502.BB1181061F@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <5b4f708a-2d2d-da2d-7bf7-3a129f42857a@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 19:33:07 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 13:33:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner In-Reply-To: <5b4f708a-2d2d-da2d-7bf7-3a129f42857a@four-winds-energy.com> References: <75bc3cc576c578c9a8eabbfab276a4a1@mail.gmail.com> <20161012133553.13F8210BAF@che.dreamhost.com> <20161012224502.BB1181061F@che.dreamhost.com> <5b4f708a-2d2d-da2d-7bf7-3a129f42857a@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: I spoke to midnite and they said they got a gfi 100 amp, l dont recall if it was din tail or bolt on Jerry On Oct 12, 2016 12:53 PM, "Roy Butler" wrote: > Drake, > > That's funny, William and I were having that discussion earlier today > about those old DC enclosures. > There was no need to sign your work because you left plenty of DNA behind > for identification...... > > Roy Butler > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > On 10/12/2016 6:44 PM, Drake wrote: > > Right, the old Trace DC cabinets were bloody knuckle boxes for sure. > Things have come a long way since those days, and still have a ways to go. > > > At 02:36 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote: > > Drake: >  > Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet: >  > 1.   In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all > you got, and it was grossly inadequate. Off-the-shelf load centers were > the only choice for the AC side. AC bypassing was a relatively new > concept but it could be done. > 2.   Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a > brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of > inverters (the PS series). I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this > design and it was genius. > 3.   Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been > discussing. There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our > discussion drives more of that. >  > I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative. > They are cheap and readily available. Generally two load centers are > required, one for generator fed and one for inverter fed. GTBB systems > might call for a third panel: utility fed. Bypass is the only issue that > calls for considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center > installations. Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock > methods. Where we need to interlock more than two breakers we fab our own > slides. Sure, they are not “listed†but they are a simple mechanical > device and I am comfortable using them. >  > There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized > inverter equipment with standard electrical components. For example, > connecting standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because > the FX KOs are so far from the mounting surface. This is the part of the > work that I enjoy immensely. We really want to make installations that > are reliable, efficient to install and look good. I have a friend in the > entertainment industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing > installation are more reliable…† True words. > >  > Thanks for you input. >  > William >  >  > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 >  > *From:* RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner >  > DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker > systems that are used for many commercial and industrial applications. > > The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the > cost of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason > that a DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the > shelf AC box. > > The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap > on breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reason > to require anything other than standard code requirements. > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote: > > My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the > panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It > definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter > to our package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We > have a few other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is > basically inaccessible. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > > You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated > and voltage rated and are panel mounted. > Jerry > > On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" wrote: > I†ll chime in here.< > Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. > However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together > something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t > be UL. > > What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This allows > much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the > terminals.  And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the > breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it,it, install lay in > lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them. > Allows for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker > or the plate/breakers. With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them > but I know they make them, shielields that fit between each breaker so the > lay in lugs are insulated. > jay > peltz power > > > > On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller > wrote: > Chris: >  > Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We always use > the GSLC cabinets. I just don’t like the design conceptept that > clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access > and block other components. See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we > were asked to work in. Not a good scenario. >  > We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the > problems inherent with the design. We run all AC leads to adjacent load > centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our > goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front. > I think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make > connections in a hard to reach location. >  > Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create > better, safer and more efficient installations. >  > Also, I don’t need someone to instructuct me on how to make a > “finished†looking ing install. If you are familiar with my work you > know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but one > example of one of our installs. >  > And lastly, “suck it up†is nos not a very complimentary phrase. > Please, let’s ks keep it professional. >  > Sincerely, >  > William Miller >  > > Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC >  > > Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC.. >  > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 >  > From: RE-wrenches [ > mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On Behalf Of Chris Mason > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM > To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner >  > The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer > will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function > in. >  > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: >  > I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 > remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into > charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main > breaker and onto a large battery bank. >  > I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers > on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is > an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through > the GSLC cabinets. >  > I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers > with studs on the back. >  > Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner? >  > Thanks in advance, >  > William Miller >  >  > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 >  > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > >  >  > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician >  > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > >  > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > >  > > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > >  > Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image003.jpg" > Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image003.jpg" > Content-ID: > > X-Attachment-Id: 53cec85809fc3170_0.1 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gpgridtie at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 20:27:33 2016 From: gpgridtie at gmail.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 17:27:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In search of an awesome PV shade structure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrew, Check with Vince at Energy Design in Eugene, OR. He has a product called Rain Frame. I saw one of the installs and it was very nice. http://www.solarenergydesign.com/rainframe/ Best Regards, Bob Maynard On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Good afternoon wrenches! Does anyone know of a custom fabricator who > might be able to manufacture a shade structure that meets the following > criteria for a project in NJ? > > - fully protects anything underneath from the elements, preferably > with some type of weatherproof membrane under the array > - incorporates a gutter (or similar) to address runoff and snow > sloughing > - can support ~40kW of PV in a footprint approximating a square, with > columns at the 4 corners > - aesthetically pleasing > > > Thanks in advance! > > > - Andrew > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Oct 12 20:28:33 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:28:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds In-Reply-To: References: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> <18850eddd61646e0b0f4a07117c543f7@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: I am a big fan of the Schneider XW system, and the XW Power Distribution Panel. Full disclosure - I helped design it. The original design was this tiny cramped thing and all of us in the design advisory team said 'make it big'. We generally go with external bypass assemblies for configurations more than 2 inverters, using a more conventional manual transfer switch. SMA deployments, when coupled with the Multi-Cluster enclosure and some sheet metal trays works quite well. I've not yet used Midnite's solution for SMA inverter installs. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: October-12-16 10:37 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Kevin: I am curious, what brand would you prefer over the Radian that has wiring cabinet design that is “safe and easy to work on”? I hope everyone understands I generally like the GSLC and the Radian line. The Radian BOS available is superior to that of most other brands, the Sunny Island line, for example, which has no BOS at all. With some intelligent design and a few tips and tricks, the Radian can make a very nice install. William PS: I am increasingly excited to try the Midnite MNDC15. Although it has the same problem with back-wired breakers, it allows one to move all PV disconnects to a point adjacent to the charge controllers. This removes the last breaker froth GSLC other than the inverter breakers. Wm [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:15 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Thank you very much for sharing this. Reinforces my avoidance of the Outback Radian line. Given there are other products on the market that perform the same functions, with the added bonus of wiring cabinet design that is actually safe and easy to work on without many hrs of re-design work, I don't see any advantages to this product line. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: October-11-16 2:07 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Friends: We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC. If anyone is interested, direct your browser to: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone out there. I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my trade secrets. Sincerely, William [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1559 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1456 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 20:34:13 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 17:34:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds In-Reply-To: References: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> <18850eddd61646e0b0f4a07117c543f7@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: HI Kevin, Many thanks. The PDP is the best box out there. Easy to work in. Will handle 4 CC, 3 inverters. And as many have requested it uses large Airpax breakers for the DC and QOU for the AC. One question on that, what was the thinking about having to put the comm cable in the shielded trays? No one else does that? Thanks jay peltz power > On Oct 12, 2016, at 5:28 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > I am a big fan of the Schneider XW system, and the XW Power Distribution Panel. Full disclosure - I helped design it. The original design was this tiny cramped thing and all of us in the design advisory team said 'make it big'. We generally go with external bypass assemblies for configurations more than 2 inverters, using a more conventional manual transfer switch. > > SMA deployments, when coupled with the Multi-Cluster enclosure and some sheet metal trays works quite well. I've not yet used Midnite's solution for SMA inverter installs. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: October-12-16 10:37 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds > > Kevin: > > I am curious, what brand would you prefer over the Radian that has wiring cabinet design that is “safe and easy to work on”? > > I hope everyone understands I generally like the GSLC and the Radian line. The Radian BOS available is superior to that of most other brands, the Sunny Island line, for example, which has no BOS at all. With some intelligent design and a few tips and tricks, the Radian can make a very nice install. > > William > > PS: I am increasingly excited to try the Midnite MNDC15. Although it has the same problem with back-wired breakers, it allows one to move all PV disconnects to a point adjacent to the charge controllers. This removes the last breaker froth GSLC other than the inverter breakers. > > Wm > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:15 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds > > Thank you very much for sharing this. Reinforces my avoidance of the Outback Radian line. Given there are other products on the market that perform the same functions, with the added bonus of wiring cabinet design that is actually safe and easy to work on without many hrs of re-design work, I don't see any advantages to this product line. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: October-11-16 2:07 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds > > Friends: > > We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC. If anyone is interested, direct your browser to: > > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html > > I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone out there. I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my trade secrets. > > Sincerely, > > William > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:29:06 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:29:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. Message-ID: Top o' the morning! Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas where to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from seem to have them. We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Oct 13 12:38:35 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 12:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39354136bad37d5e72099d387853fb85.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every little bit helps. Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. (860)828-6007 Daryl > Top o' the morning! > Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 > batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas > where > to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from > seem to have them. > We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate > results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing > electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? > > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Oct 13 13:25:13 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:25:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds In-Reply-To: References: <548a251225080bbd424ce6020d1d24d0@mail.gmail.com> <18850eddd61646e0b0f4a07117c543f7@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <9b4073db94034af6a9ad6d41a008b0b5@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Thanks. I don't know exactly the reasons for the comm cable shielding, as that happened after my main involvement. I do know during initial product testing with the earliest firmware there was challenges with keeping Xanbus communication network stable in the noisy RF environments inverters live in. Subsequent firmware updates improved that dramatically. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: October-12-16 5:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds HI Kevin, Many thanks. The PDP is the best box out there. Easy to work in. Will handle 4 CC, 3 inverters. And as many have requested it uses large Airpax breakers for the DC and QOU for the AC. One question on that, what was the thinking about having to put the comm cable in the shielded trays? No one else does that? Thanks jay peltz power On Oct 12, 2016, at 5:28 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: I am a big fan of the Schneider XW system, and the XW Power Distribution Panel. Full disclosure - I helped design it. The original design was this tiny cramped thing and all of us in the design advisory team said 'make it big'. We generally go with external bypass assemblies for configurations more than 2 inverters, using a more conventional manual transfer switch. SMA deployments, when coupled with the Multi-Cluster enclosure and some sheet metal trays works quite well. I've not yet used Midnite's solution for SMA inverter installs. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: October-12-16 10:37 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Kevin: I am curious, what brand would you prefer over the Radian that has wiring cabinet design that is “safe and easy to work on”? I hope everyone understands I generally like the GSLC and the Radian line. The Radian BOS available is superior to that of most other brands, the Sunny Island line, for example, which has no BOS at all. With some intelligent design and a few tips and tricks, the Radian can make a very nice install. William PS: I am increasingly excited to try the Midnite MNDC15. Although it has the same problem with back-wired breakers, it allows one to move all PV disconnects to a point adjacent to the charge controllers. This removes the last breaker froth GSLC other than the inverter breakers. Wm Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:15 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Thank you very much for sharing this. Reinforces my avoidance of the Outback Radian line. Given there are other products on the market that perform the same functions, with the added bonus of wiring cabinet design that is actually safe and easy to work on without many hrs of re-design work, I don't see any advantages to this product line. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: October-11-16 2:07 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds Friends: We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC. If anyone is interested, direct your browser to: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone out there. I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my trade secrets. Sincerely, William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwks at cybermesa.com Thu Oct 13 14:00:50 2016 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (solarwks at cybermesa.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 12:00:50 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1347.65.100.127.154.1476381650.squirrel@webmail.cybermesa.com> Kirpal, my clients tell me they work to approximately double the battery watering interval time. I buy them direct from Watermiser. Carl Hansen&Sun Elect. On Thu, October 13, 2016 10:29 am, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Top o' the morning! > Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 > batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas > where > to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from > seem to have them. > We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate > results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing > electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? > > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 13:02:13 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:02:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. In-Reply-To: <39354136bad37d5e72099d387853fb85.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <39354136bad37d5e72099d387853fb85.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <8A32B05D-2B14-4080-81ED-B7C7FA99A80B@gmail.com> while we are on the subject of recombining caps has anyone used the following. http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf Jay peltz power > On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:38 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down > on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every > little bit helps. > Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. (860)828-6007 > > Daryl > > > > >> Top o' the morning! >> Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 >> batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas >> where >> to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from >> seem to have them. >> We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate >> results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing >> electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? >> >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darren at self.org Thu Oct 13 18:20:02 2016 From: darren at self.org (Darren Anderson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 22:20:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for hurricane resistant solar arrays? Message-ID: In light of Hurricane Matthew and the loss of some of our PV systems on South Coast of Haiti (despite being designed for 120 - 150mph winds), I’d be interested to hear of any strategies being used for making hurricane-resistant solar arrays. The maximum wind speed that most commercially available racking systems seem to provide is 130 – 150mph, but in many cases it seems the racking survives okay anyway while the glass is blown right out of the module frames. Are there any modules rated for higher than 2400 Pascals of wind loading (which seems to be the norm)? I recall seeing a Mitsubishi module a few years back that had an additional frame member running across the back of the module. Would that provide extra wind load protection? Would using small solar modules with less surface area be a useful strategy? (We typically use standard 60-cell modules.) Can some sort of wind break or shield be designed into the frame to take the wind load off the solar modules themselves? (Many of our systems are on tilt-frames on flat concrete roofs so that back of the array is exposed.) Any thoughts/advice/experience in this area would be much appreciated. Thanks. _______________________ Darren Anderson | Project Manager Solar Electric Light Fund | www.SELF.org mobile: +1-778-887-8291 head office: +1-202-234-7265 skype: darren.anderson.self ENERGY IS A HUMAN RIGHTTM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 13 18:33:11 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:33:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. In-Reply-To: <8A32B05D-2B14-4080-81ED-B7C7FA99A80B@gmail.com> References: <39354136bad37d5e72099d387853fb85.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <8A32B05D-2B14-4080-81ED-B7C7FA99A80B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <052AB66E-B73B-4C4E-8778-008B5C4805CA@starlightsolar.com> Battery Wrenches, The problem with recombination style caps is they require using a low absorb voltage, about 2.35 to 2.4 Vpc. I am a big fan of aggressive charge voltage for many flooded battery types. Doing so produces more evolution of gasses. These and other caps can be overwhelmed by this. In addition, the caps should be removed for equalization charges. Water Miser caps are not recombination caps, they use condensing beads to trap moisture and drip back into the cell. We have sold many hundreds of Water Miser caps and some customers report up to 5 months between watering. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 13, 2016, at 11:02 AM, jay wrote: while we are on the subject of recombining caps has anyone used the following. http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf Jay peltz power > On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:38 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down > on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every > little bit helps. > Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. (860)828-6007 > > Daryl > > > > >> Top o' the morning! >> Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 >> batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas >> where >> to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from >> seem to have them. >> We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate >> results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing >> electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? >> >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Oct 13 18:41:56 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 18:41:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. In-Reply-To: <052AB66E-B73B-4C4E-8778-008B5C4805CA@starlightsolar.com> References: <39354136bad37d5e72099d387853fb85.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <8A32B05D-2B14-4080-81ED-B7C7FA99A80B@gmail.com> <052AB66E-B73B-4C4E-8778-008B5C4805CA@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Kirpal, You state that the Rolls 5000 series come standard with recombiner caps. Just installed a set of 4ks25p yesterday and the caps haven't changed that I noticed. I've been using the Hydro caps for about 15 years now and all my clients including the ones we use here at our office/shop only require water every 6 months. We reinstall the original caps during EQ. I am looking to try out the Rolls caps one of these days though. Christopher Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Battery Wrenches, > > The problem with recombination style caps is they require using a low > absorb voltage, about 2.35 to 2.4 Vpc. I am a big fan of aggressive charge > voltage for many flooded battery types. Doing so produces more evolution of > gasses. These and other caps can be overwhelmed by this. In addition, the > caps should be removed for equalization charges. > > Water Miser caps are not recombination caps, they use condensing beads to > trap moisture and drip back into the cell. We have sold many hundreds of > Water Miser caps and some customers report up to 5 months between watering. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Oct 13, 2016, at 11:02 AM, jay wrote: > > while we are on the subject of recombining caps has anyone used the > following. > > http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf > > Jay > > peltz power > > On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:38 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down > on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every > little bit helps. > Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. > (860)828-6007 > > Daryl > > > > > Top o' the morning! > Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 > batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas > where > to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from > seem to have them. > We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate > results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing > electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? > > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu Oct 13 18:43:30 2016 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 15:43:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. In-Reply-To: <052AB66E-B73B-4C4E-8778-008B5C4805CA@starlightsolar.com> References: <39354136bad37d5e72099d387853fb85.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <8A32B05D-2B14-4080-81ED-B7C7FA99A80B@gmail.com> <052AB66E-B73B-4C4E-8778-008B5C4805CA@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches... Recombination Caps typically use a palladium plate or balls to help the recombination process... The Hydrogen and Oxygen in gas for pass by the palladium. The Hydrogen and Oxygen attaches to the palladium and it rejoins the gasses into a liquid form. The problem with this process is it can build up quite a bit of heat. The nice thing about the water-miser caps is it's made up of many palladium marbles, instead of a disk. There are some recombination caps that when you are charging at higher voltage, or EQ'ing they will heat up tremendously and will melt to the tops of the batteries. This forces you to remove the caps during heavy charging, or equalizing as melting caps are not a good thing, and whats the point of having these if you can't have them on the battery? This is why we switched to the water-misers, they don't get as hot and are made of materials that can absorb a bit more heat and you don't have to remove them when charging. If you need help finding these, let me know off list and I'll work with a distributor near you to get them. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Battery Wrenches, > > The problem with recombination style caps is they require using a low > absorb voltage, about 2.35 to 2.4 Vpc. I am a big fan of aggressive charge > voltage for many flooded battery types. Doing so produces more evolution of > gasses. These and other caps can be overwhelmed by this. In addition, the > caps should be removed for equalization charges. > > Water Miser caps are not recombination caps, they use condensing beads to > trap moisture and drip back into the cell. We have sold many hundreds of > Water Miser caps and some customers report up to 5 months between watering. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Oct 13, 2016, at 11:02 AM, jay wrote: > > while we are on the subject of recombining caps has anyone used the > following. > > http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf > > Jay > > peltz power > > On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:38 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down > on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every > little bit helps. > Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. > (860)828-6007 > > Daryl > > > > > Top o' the morning! > Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 > batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas > where > to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from > seem to have them. > We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate > results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing > electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? > > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 13 19:08:37 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:08:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. In-Reply-To: References: <39354136bad37d5e72099d387853fb85.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <8A32B05D-2B14-4080-81ED-B7C7FA99A80B@gmail.com> <052AB66E-B73B-4C4E-8778-008B5C4805CA@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <5B1049E5-E0C4-49E9-BEC8-D7734928C3D3@starlightsolar.com> Steve, Water Miser caps use plastic beads to condense moisture. No recombination takes place. No exothermic process thus no heat is generated. Larry On Oct 13, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: Wrenches... Recombination Caps typically use a palladium plate or balls to help the recombination process... The Hydrogen and Oxygen in gas for pass by the palladium. The Hydrogen and Oxygen attaches to the palladium and it rejoins the gasses into a liquid form. The problem with this process is it can build up quite a bit of heat. The nice thing about the water-miser caps is it's made up of many palladium marbles, instead of a disk. There are some recombination caps that when you are charging at higher voltage, or EQ'ing they will heat up tremendously and will melt to the tops of the batteries. This forces you to remove the caps during heavy charging, or equalizing as melting caps are not a good thing, and whats the point of having these if you can't have them on the battery? This is why we switched to the water-misers, they don't get as hot and are made of materials that can absorb a bit more heat and you don't have to remove them when charging. If you need help finding these, let me know off list and I'll work with a distributor near you to get them. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Battery Wrenches, The problem with recombination style caps is they require using a low absorb voltage, about 2.35 to 2.4 Vpc. I am a big fan of aggressive charge voltage for many flooded battery types. Doing so produces more evolution of gasses. These and other caps can be overwhelmed by this. In addition, the caps should be removed for equalization charges. Water Miser caps are not recombination caps, they use condensing beads to trap moisture and drip back into the cell. We have sold many hundreds of Water Miser caps and some customers report up to 5 months between watering. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 13, 2016, at 11:02 AM, jay wrote: while we are on the subject of recombining caps has anyone used the following. http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf Jay peltz power > On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:38 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down > on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every > little bit helps. > Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. (860)828-6007 > > Daryl > > > > >> Top o' the morning! >> Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 >> batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas >> where >> to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from >> seem to have them. >> We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate >> results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing >> electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? >> >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From steve at surrette.com Thu Oct 13 19:17:20 2016 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:17:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. In-Reply-To: References: <39354136bad37d5e72099d387853fb85.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <8A32B05D-2B14-4080-81ED-B7C7FA99A80B@gmail.com> <052AB66E-B73B-4C4E-8778-008B5C4805CA@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Correction... Watermiser caps are plastic balls, not palladium balls... I've never cut one open, maybe something I should do someday. Thanks Larry! Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: > Wrenches... > > Recombination Caps typically use a palladium plate or balls to help the > recombination process... The Hydrogen and Oxygen in gas for pass by > the palladium. The Hydrogen and Oxygen attaches to the palladium and it > rejoins the gasses into a liquid form. > > The problem with this process is it can build up quite a bit of heat. The > nice thing about the water-miser caps is it's made up of many palladium > marbles, instead of a disk. There are some recombination caps that when > you are charging at higher voltage, or EQ'ing they will heat up > tremendously and will melt to the tops of the batteries. This forces you to > remove the caps during heavy charging, or equalizing as melting caps are > not a good thing, and whats the point of having these if you can't have > them on the battery? > > This is why we switched to the water-misers, they don't get as hot and are > made of materials that can absorb a bit more heat and you don't have to > remove them when charging. > > If you need help finding these, let me know off list and I'll work with a > distributor near you to get them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > <#m_4941117508433283721_UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < > larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > >> Battery Wrenches, >> >> The problem with recombination style caps is they require using a low >> absorb voltage, about 2.35 to 2.4 Vpc. I am a big fan of aggressive charge >> voltage for many flooded battery types. Doing so produces more evolution of >> gasses. These and other caps can be overwhelmed by this. In addition, the >> caps should be removed for equalization charges. >> >> Water Miser caps are not recombination caps, they use condensing beads to >> trap moisture and drip back into the cell. We have sold many hundreds of >> Water Miser caps and some customers report up to 5 months between watering. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 13, 2016, at 11:02 AM, jay wrote: >> >> while we are on the subject of recombining caps has anyone used the >> following. >> >> http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf >> >> Jay >> >> peltz power >> >> On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:38 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: >> >> We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down >> on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every >> little bit helps. >> Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. >> (860)828-6007 >> >> Daryl >> >> >> >> >> Top o' the morning! >> Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 >> batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas >> where >> to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from >> seem to have them. >> We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate >> results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing >> electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? >> >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 13 19:37:18 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:37:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls Surrette Re-combiner caps. In-Reply-To: References: <39354136bad37d5e72099d387853fb85.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <8A32B05D-2B14-4080-81ED-B7C7FA99A80B@gmail.com> <052AB66E-B73B-4C4E-8778-008B5C4805CA@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: One other advantage, recombination caps wear out. We have had Water Miser caps returned (during upgrade to AGM’s) that are over 10 years old. By washing in baking soda and water, thoroughly rinsing, they continue working. Should last decades. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 13, 2016, at 5:17 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: Correction... Watermiser caps are plastic balls, not palladium balls... I've never cut one open, maybe something I should do someday. Thanks Larry! Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <> <> <> <> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Steve Higgins > wrote: Wrenches... Recombination Caps typically use a palladium plate or balls to help the recombination process... The Hydrogen and Oxygen in gas for pass by the palladium. The Hydrogen and Oxygen attaches to the palladium and it rejoins the gasses into a liquid form. The problem with this process is it can build up quite a bit of heat. The nice thing about the water-miser caps is it's made up of many palladium marbles, instead of a disk. There are some recombination caps that when you are charging at higher voltage, or EQ'ing they will heat up tremendously and will melt to the tops of the batteries. This forces you to remove the caps during heavy charging, or equalizing as melting caps are not a good thing, and whats the point of having these if you can't have them on the battery? This is why we switched to the water-misers, they don't get as hot and are made of materials that can absorb a bit more heat and you don't have to remove them when charging. If you need help finding these, let me know off list and I'll work with a distributor near you to get them. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <> <> <> <> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: Battery Wrenches, The problem with recombination style caps is they require using a low absorb voltage, about 2.35 to 2.4 Vpc. I am a big fan of aggressive charge voltage for many flooded battery types. Doing so produces more evolution of gasses. These and other caps can be overwhelmed by this. In addition, the caps should be removed for equalization charges. Water Miser caps are not recombination caps, they use condensing beads to trap moisture and drip back into the cell. We have sold many hundreds of Water Miser caps and some customers report up to 5 months between watering. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 13, 2016, at 11:02 AM, jay > wrote: while we are on the subject of recombining caps has anyone used the following. http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/Battery-Recombination-Plug.pdf Jay peltz power > On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:38 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > We supply them to all our clients in the Bahamas and they do help cut down > on watering to various degrees. In hot climates with a lot of sun every > little bit helps. > Call Roy at RAE Storage Battery to see if he can get you some. (860)828-6007 > > Daryl > > > > >> Top o' the morning! >> Has anyone used the Rolls Surrette recombiner caps for their series 4000 >> batteries? They come standard on the series 5000 batteries Any ideas >> where >> to source them? None of our battery suppliers we get Rolls batteries from >> seem to have them. >> We have used water miser caps in the past, they seem to have only moderate >> results....some customers seem to think they help with minimizing >> electrolyte loss and some thinking they dont help at all.....Any thoughts? >> >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 06:51:52 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 06:51:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for hurricane resistant solar arrays? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All our installations are in the Caribbean. The glass blow out (or suck out which is more likely) doesn't surprise me, that is the design limitation. It doesn't matter how tough the rail is if the modules blow out. Tilt installations are bad for hurricane zones. I keep out flat roof installations to a lower tilt than is recommended for this reason. I also favour parapets around the roof to protect them, so if you have some blocks and masons around, let them add two rows of blocks to the roof line. I suspect smaller modules are stronger, so 180W modules would be better than 300W. CanadianSolar have a line of 300~W modules with a bar across the back, but it will only help with blow not suck as it is not attached to the backing. I've looked at fitting a crossbar into the frame attached to the backing with 5200 or similar, but the question is, how are you going to test, you have killed the warranty, and is it worth it? This is a tough place to install solar. On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Darren Anderson wrote: > In light of Hurricane Matthew and the loss of some of our PV systems on > South Coast of Haiti (despite being designed for 120 - 150mph winds), I’d > be interested to hear of any strategies being used for making > hurricane-resistant solar arrays. The maximum wind speed that most > commercially available racking systems seem to provide is 130 – 150mph, but > in many cases it seems the racking survives okay anyway while the glass is > blown right out of the module frames. > > Are there any modules rated for higher than 2400 Pascals of wind loading > (which seems to be the norm)? I recall seeing a Mitsubishi module a few > years back that had an additional frame member running across the back of > the module. Would that provide extra wind load protection? > > Would using small solar modules with less surface area be a useful > strategy? (We typically use standard 60-cell modules.) > > Can some sort of wind break or shield be designed into the frame to take > the wind load off the solar modules themselves? (Many of our systems are on > tilt-frames on flat concrete roofs so that back of the array is exposed.) > > Any thoughts/advice/experience in this area would be much appreciated. > Thanks. > _______________________ > > *Darren Anderson *| Project Manager > > *Solar Electric Light Fund *| www.SELF.org > > mobile: +1-778-887-8291 > > head office: +1-202-234-7265 > > skype: darren.anderson.self > > > > *ENERGY IS A HUMAN RIGHTTM* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Oct 14 11:01:17 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 09:01:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for hurricane resistant solar arrays? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is are a couple bare bones suggestion...tweak as needed... I would avoid permanently closing in the back of the array in any way as it will increase heat build up and reduce efficiency. Have some pre cut materials, ready to go, stashed on the roof that could be attached in short time only when needed. If the glass is being "sucked out" the front of the frame and the racks and mod frames themselves are proving to be strong then maybe adjust your rack mounting strategy so the number of mods in a row is reduced so that, when hurricanes are forecasted, you can clamp down to the frame or rack (or otherwise attach) a length (or two) of 2" angle aluminum/steel or other suitable material across the front of the mods. The strength of the material would determine how many mods wide it could span. Line the back of the "hurricane bar" with carpet or other suitable material so not to scratch the glass. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Oct 13, 2016, at 4:20 PM, Darren Anderson wrote: > > In light of Hurricane Matthew and the loss of some of our PV systems on South Coast of Haiti (despite being designed for 120 - 150mph winds), I’d be interested to hear of any strategies being used for making hurricane-resistant solar arrays. The maximum wind speed that most commercially available racking systems seem to provide is 130 – 150mph, but in many cases it seems the racking survives okay anyway while the glass is blown right out of the module frames. > > Are there any modules rated for higher than 2400 Pascals of wind loading (which seems to be the norm)? I recall seeing a Mitsubishi module a few years back that had an additional frame member running across the back of the module. Would that provide extra wind load protection? > > Would using small solar modules with less surface area be a useful strategy? (We typically use standard 60-cell modules.) > > Can some sort of wind break or shield be designed into the frame to take the wind load off the solar modules themselves? (Many of our systems are on tilt-frames on flat concrete roofs so that back of the array is exposed.) > > Any thoughts/advice/experience in this area would be much appreciated. Thanks. > _______________________ > Darren Anderson | Project Manager > Solar Electric Light Fund | www.SELF.org > mobile: +1-778-887-8291 > head office: +1-202-234-7265 > skype: darren.anderson.self > > ENERGY IS A HUMAN RIGHTTM > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Oct 14 09:55:43 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 07:55:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries Message-ID: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> Good Morning All, I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 11:42:40 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 11:42:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery systems Message-ID: I'm curious to see if anyone is finding Lithium battery systems available that will be suitable for an Outback Radian based system. Let me know what is out there please. -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Fri Oct 14 12:14:00 2016 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:14:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> Message-ID: Hi Dana Two thoughts... how many days of autonomy are they quoting? If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the past 100 years? Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300] E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email - You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don't lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off... It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries Good Morning All, I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5987 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 12:38:45 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 10:38:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check with Iron Edison in Denver about their LiFePo batteries. The BMS is built in. They support Radian. https://ironedison.com/48-volt-lithium-battery-for-solar Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > I'm curious to see if anyone is finding Lithium battery systems available > that will be suitable for an Outback Radian based system. Let me know what > is out there please. > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 13:56:32 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 11:56:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> Message-ID: Tom, Dana -- I'm quite happy with the nickel iron battery bank that runs my office. But you as the installer have to deal with the odd charge / discharge curves and program the equipment to work with that. Just like any other battery technology that is not lead-acid. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: > Hi Dana > > > > Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting? > > > > If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the > past 100 years? > > > > Kind regards > > > > *Tom Duffy* > > *Senior Solar Design Engineer* > > [image: Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300] > > *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * > > ***Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: **tom at solar-biz.com > Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!*** > > *Main Number: **888-826-0939 <888-826-0939>* > > *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 <507-836-5588%20X%20122>* > > *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772 <888-503-6772>* > > *International: **575-539-2111 X 122 <575-539-2111%20X%20122>* > > *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (e-mail first)* > > > > NOTICE: *Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, > and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the > end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.* > > *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for > the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and > privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dana > *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries > > > > Good Morning All, > > > > I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have > installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any > experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & > was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 > AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. > > > > Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there > something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**" * > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5987 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 14:03:48 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 12:03:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> Message-ID: Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have a specific webpage on their site that says this? All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical issues for the installer to overcome. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: > Hi Dana > > > > Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting? > > > > If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the > past 100 years? > > > > Kind regards > > > > *Tom Duffy* > > *Senior Solar Design Engineer* > > [image: Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300] > > *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * > > ***Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: **tom at solar-biz.com > Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!*** > > *Main Number: **888-826-0939 <888-826-0939>* > > *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 <507-836-5588%20X%20122>* > > *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772 <888-503-6772>* > > *International: **575-539-2111 X 122 <575-539-2111%20X%20122>* > > *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (e-mail first)* > > > > NOTICE: *Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, > and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the > end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.* > > *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for > the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and > privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dana > *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries > > > > Good Morning All, > > > > I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have > installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any > experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & > was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 > AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. > > > > Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there > something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**" * > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5987 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Oct 14 15:09:12 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 13:09:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery systems References: <5DD960FE-363F-48B7-9523-AA6142C0195F@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <18892195-61D0-4F23-9218-76CF8F7D97BC@starlightsolar.com> Hi Chris, I am in our 3rd year of designing and selling Lithium Iron Manganese Phosphate (LFMP) battery systems for our mobile, boat and off grid customers. There is no mystery to using Lithium Iron type batteries with most modern inverter/chargers, although some manufacturers disagree. Our LFMP batteries work with any charger that has programmable absorb and float voltage and has adjustable absorb timers down to 5 minutes. Temperature compensation is not used. At my Montana home, I have a the Outback GS8048 for powering my shop building, home office and to backup loads in the house. I have looked at many other batteries being marketed but none of the EMS systems or designs have the features and protection that I deem necessary. Too much to write about here but buyer do your research. A customer will not be happy if their battery often shuts down. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 14, 2016, at 9:42 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: I'm curious to see if anyone is finding Lithium battery systems available that will be suitable for an Outback Radian based system. Let me know what is out there please. -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Oct 14 17:36:10 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 15:36:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> Message-ID: <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said “magical” as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say this. __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have a specific webpage on their site that says this? All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical issues for the installer to overcome. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: Hi Dana Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting? If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the past 100 years? Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300 E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries Good Morning All, I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4382 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Oct 14 17:55:46 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 15:55:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) In-Reply-To: <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> Message-ID: <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> Dana (and I'm curious if others agree), I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were=20 expensive and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years these=20 two have reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear - my=20 fundamental design approach has changed. I now design around 2-3 days of=20 storage with a larger array, as long as there's a backup generator in=20 the system. I size to at least 100% of the projected winter average=20 daily load. The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days=20 between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping them=20 happier and giving them as much or more life, even with more and deeper=20 cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the=20 customer spends less. You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is it=20 the same in Idaho where you live now? Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 10/14/2016 3:36 PM, Dana wrote: > > I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of=20 > storage and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To=20 > clarify - I said =E2=80=9Cmagical=E2=80=9D as in wondering if there was s= omething=20 > special, I-E did not say this. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136** > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz=20 > > > *O*- 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003** > > *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988_**_" _* > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison=20 > Batteries > > Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you=20 > have a specific webpage on their site that says this? > > All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad=20 > technical issues for the installer to overcome. > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor=E2=84=A2 for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers=E2=84=A2 > 970.672.4342 > > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy > wrote: > > Hi Dana > > Two thoughts=E2=80=A6 how many days of autonomy are they quoting? > > If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for=20 > the past 100 years? > > Kind regards > > *Tom Duffy* > > *Senior Solar Design Engineer* > > Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300 > > *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * > > */**Please note my new email =E2=80=93 You will now be able to find me at= :=20 > /**tom at solar-biz.com /Please update your=20 > records so we don=E2=80=99t lose touch!**/* > > *Main Number: **888-826-0939 * > > *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 * > > *Direct Toll Free:**888-503-6772 * > > *International: **575-539-2111 X 122 * > > *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (/e-mail first/)* > > ** > > NOTICE: /Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity,=20 > gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the=20 > light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off=E2=80=A6 It should ha= ve=20 > been solar./ > > *Confidentiality Notice*:This message including any attachments is for=20 > the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential=20 > and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure=20 > or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,=20 > please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. > > ** > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > ] *On Behalf Of *Dana > *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries > > Good Morning All, > > I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I=20 > have installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have=20 > any experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron=20 > Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a=20 > 760 to 900 AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper=20 > typically than a FLA. > > Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is=20 > there something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz=20 > > > *O*- 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140=20 > c *- *208.721.7003 > > *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988_**_" _* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:=20 > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht= ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 4382 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 18:32:46 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:32:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) In-Reply-To: <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allen, I use the 2-3 day autonomy design approach as well unless there are unusual circumstances. Here in western Colorado this design approach has worked very well. I have been met with some resistance with folks that are used to the large 4-5 battery string designs that were common around here. Regarding battery longevity, I think the thing that we struggle with is making sure the batteries stay cool enough in the summer & warm enough in the winter. I haven't found an approach that works perfect. It seems to me like chronic undercharging is a bigger problem than higher currents introduced by modern array designs. Thanks On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Dana (and I'm curious if others agree), > I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were expensive > and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years these two have > reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear - my fundamental design > approach has changed. I now design around 2-3 days of storage with a larger > array, as long as there's a backup generator in the system. I size to at > least 100% of the projected winter average daily load. > > The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days > between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping them > happier and giving them as much or more life, even with more and deeper > cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the > customer spends less. > > You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is it the > same in Idaho where you live now? > Allan > > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 10/14/2016 3:36 PM, Dana wrote: > > I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage > and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said > “magical” as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say > this. > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**" * > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison > Batteries > > > > Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have > a specific webpage on their site that says this? > > All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical > issues for the installer to overcome. > > > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: > > Hi Dana > > > > Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting? > > > > If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the > past 100 years? > > > > Kind regards > > > > *Tom Duffy* > > *Senior Solar Design Engineer* > > [image: Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300] > > *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * > > ***Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: **tom at solar-biz.com > Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!*** > > *Main Number: **888-826-0939 <888-826-0939>* > > *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 <507-836-5588%20X%20122>* > > *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772 <888-503-6772>* > > *International: **575-539-2111 X 122 <575-539-2111%20X%20122>* > > *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (e-mail first)* > > > > NOTICE: *Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, > and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the > end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.* > > *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for > the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and > privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dana > *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries > > > > Good Morning All, > > > > I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have > installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any > experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & > was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 > AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. > > > > Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there > something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**" * > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 4382 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Oct 14 18:17:24 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:17:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) In-Reply-To: <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <002601d22668$bdc3dd70$394b9850$@com> This client is on Kauai, her cloudy winter storms average 4-5 days. She has a generator [Honda] not an auto start, that several folks have tried to integrate as auto start with no success. Battery maintenance is a challenge for her, as could be expected with a pile of T-105 style batteries, etc. I can hear folks saying "well maybe she should not be off grid." She does not have another living option & I feel just requires a minor upgrade & correction to a poor original install. I suggested a set of HUP Solar Ones & the freight was huge to the islands. __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 3:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) Dana (and I'm curious if others agree), I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were expensive and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years these two have reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear - my fundamental design approach has changed. I now design around 2-3 days of storage with a larger array, as long as there's a backup generator in the system. I size to at least 100% of the projected winter average daily load. The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping them happier and giving them as much or more life, even with more and deeper cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the customer spends less. You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is it the same in Idaho where you live now? Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 10/14/2016 3:36 PM, Dana wrote: I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said "magical" as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say this. __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have a specific webpage on their site that says this? All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical issues for the installer to overcome. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified InstructorT for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education ProvidersT 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: Hi Dana Two thoughts. how many days of autonomy are they quoting? If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the past 100 years? Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300 E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email - You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don't lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off. It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries Good Morning All, I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4382 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Oct 14 17:58:15 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 15:58:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] KAUAI CHARITY CASE In-Reply-To: References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> Message-ID: <001801d22666$119c2090$34d461b0$@com> Thanks Jay I have not used I-E batteries & This is the direct result of my Kauai charity case client online shopping. She was sold an undersized/over promised system: 50% of req’d PV & basically one days storage of T-105 style batteries. She has burned up 2 sets of batteries and has had several of installers try to steer her to total replacement with a variety of systems. She has an Outback VFX3624 dual inverter system, no problems there & ½ the PV she needs. The equipment originally installed in a mini shed a ways from the house that could have been installed under a high covered porch on the ocean side of her house. Her health is an issue, she lives free in a house that was a gift [she got to build it], & there is no utility available. She is not able to afford me to fly there [ I just moved to ID & have started my new house here additionally] & I have to say she has run into a # of opportunistic installers that think she is easy pickings. She needs 1200 watts of additional PV & 760-900 AHR @ 24 VDC of LOW TO NO MAINTENANCE long life battery & moving the power equipment to under a covered porch. Anyone with integrity free to assist? Please contact me off line for a discussion. Thanks __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 9:32 AM To: dana at solarwork.com Orzel Subject: offsite Hi Dana, I can go into great detail about all the negatives on NiFe batteries. But if this is a charity case, I don’t know how you can even think about them. First off, while yes you can take them down quite deep w/o damage, but then you also don’t have much storage either. So I don’t agree with the logic, I feel its based on trying to sell a smaller than useful battery requiring more generator run time. 400 amp hr at 24v nife is $7700 plus shipping. 800 amp hr L-16’s are $2200? really good ones with 2500 cycles to 50% are $3200 I sure don’t recommend them. Let me know if you want more info. jay Begin forwarded message: From: "Dana" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries Date: October 14, 2016 at 6:55:43 AM PDT To: "'RE-wrenches'" Reply-To: RE-wrenches Good Morning All, I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 19:25:53 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 17:25:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> Message-ID: I usually shoot for no more than 2-3 days autonomy time, no matter what type of battery bank. Every off-grid home system requires a backup generator anyway. The only things magical in a positive way IMO about NiFe is that they don't sulfate and therefore have a long life, can be stored for long periods of time without charging, and that you can add more battery bank capacity years down the road if needed. I'm very happy with mine, but there was a learning curve and reprogramming of chargers and controllers to NiFe's odd charge/discharge curve. They are very different animals than lead-acid. I am also glad I used my home office as the guinea pig for NiFe (1.5 years now) before even trying to recommend them to a client....they are not for off-grid newbies (but at least the newbies wouldn't actually ruin them unless they don't keep the electrolyte level up). Let those folks burn through a set of golf cart batteries or a set of L-16s, and then let's talk NiFe....after they observe and understand what's really going on with their energy usage and energy input for awhile. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Dana wrote: > I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage > and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said > “magical” as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say > this. > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**" * > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison > Batteries > > > > Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have > a specific webpage on their site that says this? > > All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical > issues for the installer to overcome. > > > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: > > Hi Dana > > > > Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting? > > > > If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the > past 100 years? > > > > Kind regards > > > > *Tom Duffy* > > *Senior Solar Design Engineer* > > [image: Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300] > > *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * > > ***Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: **tom at solar-biz.com > Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!*** > > *Main Number: **888-826-0939 <888-826-0939>* > > *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 <507-836-5588%20X%20122>* > > *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772 <888-503-6772>* > > *International: **575-539-2111 X 122 <575-539-2111%20X%20122>* > > *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (e-mail first)* > > > > NOTICE: *Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, > and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the > end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.* > > *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for > the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and > privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dana > *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries > > > > Good Morning All, > > > > I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have > installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any > experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & > was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 > AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. > > > > Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there > something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**" * > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4382 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 19:54:41 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 17:54:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] KAUAI CHARITY CASE In-Reply-To: <001801d22666$119c2090$34d461b0$@com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <001801d22666$119c2090$34d461b0$@com> Message-ID: FLAs. Sounds like a bad candidate for NiFe. NiFe does give you the extra DOD down to 80%, but can the inverter handle the surge loads at such a low battery voltage? I have that issue with my 12vdc office system; I can really only go down to 50% DOD until the fridge surge kicks the magnum inverter offline at night from LVD. Fine during daytime of course. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Dana wrote: > Thanks Jay I have not used I-E batteries & This is the direct result of my > Kauai charity case client online shopping. > > > > She was sold an undersized/over promised system: 50% of req’d PV & > basically one days storage of T-105 style batteries. She has burned up 2 > sets of batteries and has had several of installers try to steer her to > total replacement with a variety of systems. > > > > She has an Outback VFX3624 dual inverter system, no problems there & ½ > the PV she needs. The equipment originally installed in a mini shed a ways > from the house that could have been installed under a high covered porch on > the ocean side of her house. > > > > Her health is an issue, she lives free in a house that was a gift [she got > to build it], & there is no utility available. > > She is not able to afford me to fly there [ I just moved to ID & have > started my new house here additionally] & I have to say she has run into > a # of opportunistic installers that think she is easy pickings. > > > > She needs 1200 watts of additional PV & 760-900 AHR @ 24 VDC of LOW TO NO > MAINTENANCE long life battery & moving the power equipment to under a > covered porch. > > > > Anyone with integrity free to assist? > > > > Please contact me off line for a discussion. Thanks > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**" * > > > > *From:* jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 9:32 AM > *To:* dana at solarwork.com Orzel > *Subject:* offsite > > > > > > Hi Dana, > > > > I can go into great detail about all the negatives on NiFe batteries. > > But if this is a charity case, I don’t know how you can even think about > them. > > > > First off, while yes you can take them down quite deep w/o damage, but > then you also don’t have much storage either. > > So I don’t agree with the logic, I feel its based on trying to sell a > smaller than useful battery requiring more generator run time. > > > > 400 amp hr at 24v nife is $7700 plus shipping. > > > > 800 amp hr L-16’s are $2200? > > really good ones with 2500 cycles to 50% are $3200 > > > > I sure don’t recommend them. > > Let me know if you want more info. > > > > jay > > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > *From: *"Dana" > > *Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries* > > *Date: *October 14, 2016 at 6:55:43 AM PDT > > *To: *"'RE-wrenches'" > > *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches > > > > Good Morning All, > > > > I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have > installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any > experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & > was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 > AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. > > > > Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there > something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**" * > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 20:26:51 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 20:26:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol h4 vs MC4 Message-ID: <55F1F7DF-3C5D-48DB-BD40-055F1B02993C@gmail.com> I have a bunch of panels here to put in with an Amphenol H4 connector Seems like I remember some issues connecting some of the other connectors to the MC 4's Do these hook up with the MC 4's without any issues or do I need to find some of the H4 connectors to use ? Thanks, Bob Ellison From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 11:02:01 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 09:02:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) In-Reply-To: <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: My design philosophy these days matches yours 100%, Allen. Because of cheap PV, and FLA batteries still stuck in the 1910s. It was a different story (not too many years ago!) when a good deal on PV was $5 a watt....... Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Dana (and I'm curious if others agree), > I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were expensive > and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years these two have > reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear - my fundamental design > approach has changed. I now design around 2-3 days of storage with a larger > array, as long as there's a backup generator in the system. I size to at > least 100% of the projected winter average daily load. > > The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days > between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping them > happier and giving them as much or more life, even with more and deeper > cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the > customer spends less. > > You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is it the > same in Idaho where you live now? > Allan > > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Oct 15 13:26:26 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 12:26:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) In-Reply-To: <002601d22668$bdc3dd70$394b9850$@com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> <002601d22668$bdc3dd70$394b9850$@com> Message-ID: <37E0DAD3-859D-4C11-ADA2-B36520A14A66@mavericksolar.com> Is that Honda an electric start? If so, what model it it? As for batteries, I suggest Concorde AGM PVX-9150HT for 915Ah or Fullriver DC1150-2 for 1150Ah. Both are great choices and very rugged. Concorde & FR both may already have them stocked there. > On Oct 14, 2016, at 5:17 PM, Dana wrote: > > This client is on Kauai, her cloudy winter storms average 4-5 days. She has a generator [Honda] not an auto start, that several folks have tried to integrate as auto start with no success. Battery maintenance is a challenge for her, as could be expected with a pile of T-105 style batteries, etc. > I can hear folks saying “well maybe she should not be off grid.” > She does not have another living option & I feel just requires a minor upgrade & correction to a poor original install. > I suggested a set of HUP Solar Ones & the freight was huge to the islands. > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 3:56 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) > > Dana (and I'm curious if others agree), > I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were expensive and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years these two have reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear - my fundamental design approach has changed. I now design around 2-3 days of storage with a larger array, as long as there's a backup generator in the system. I size to at least 100% of the projected winter average daily load. > > The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping them happier and giving them as much or more life, even with more and deeper cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the customer spends less. > > You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is it the same in Idaho where you live now? > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 10/14/2016 3:36 PM, Dana wrote: >> I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said “magical” as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say this. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> Dana Orzel >> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >> dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz >> O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Dan Fink >> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries >> >> Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have a specific webpage on their site that says this? >> All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical issues for the installer to overcome. >> >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy > wrote: >> Hi Dana >> >> Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting? >> >> If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the past 100 years? >> >> Kind regards >> >> Tom Duffy >> Senior Solar Design Engineer >> >> E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com >> **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.com Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!** >> Main Number: 888-826-0939 >> Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 >> Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 >> International: 575-539-2111 X 122 >> SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) >> >> NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. >> Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Dana >> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM >> To: 'RE-wrenches' > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries >> >> Good Morning All, >> >> I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. >> >> Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> Dana Orzel >> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >> dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz >> O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Oct 15 16:27:03 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:27:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) In-Reply-To: References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <9e3443cf-bb42-0ddf-a63a-403a147b044d@solarray.com> I agree, 2 to 3 days works pretty well, but I double check that we are within the recommended minimum and max charge rates for the battery. I found, as Alan mentioned, that many old school designs did not meet the minimum charge rates, and resulted in sulfated batteries. Like wise I've come across some recent systems by the new crop of solar installers, that had grossly undersized batteries. They were constantly being over charged, and also couldn't supply enough current to operate the inverter at rated power. Aren't those cute? 100 AH just isn't enough battery for a 4 kW inverter, though. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/15/2016 9:02 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > My design philosophy these days matches yours 100%, Allen. Because of > cheap PV, and FLA batteries still stuck in the 1910s. It was a > different story (not too many years ago!) when a good deal on PV was > $5 a watt....... > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Allan Sindelar > > wrote: > > Dana (and I'm curious if others agree), > I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were > expensive and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years > these two have reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear > - my fundamental design approach has changed. I now design around > 2-3 days of storage with a larger array, as long as there's a > backup generator in the system. I size to at least 100% of the > projected winter average daily load. > > The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy > days between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus > keeping them happier and giving them as much or more life, even > with more and deeper cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the > hotter charge rate. And the customer spends less. > > You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. > Is it the same in Idaho where you live now? > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nndodolklllmibma.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 240710 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 11:27:20 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 08:27:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol h4 vs MC4 In-Reply-To: <55F1F7DF-3C5D-48DB-BD40-055F1B02993C@gmail.com> References: <55F1F7DF-3C5D-48DB-BD40-055F1B02993C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bob Both UL and the NEC say you have to follow OEM instructions. MC says no to any connection except to another MC. Amphenol H4 uses same crimper as MC4. Contact Bryan at PV CABLES 707-923-3000 Jay Peltz power. > On Oct 14, 2016, at 5:26 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > > I have a bunch of panels here to put in with an Amphenol H4 connector > Seems like I remember some issues connecting some of the other connectors to the MC 4's > > Do these hook up with the MC 4's without any issues or do I need to find some of the H4 connectors to use ? > > Thanks, > Bob Ellison > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From frenergy at psln.com Sat Oct 15 22:17:49 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 19:17:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol h4 vs MC4 In-Reply-To: References: <55F1F7DF-3C5D-48DB-BD40-055F1B02993C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, That may be the same crimper but its not the same dies. Bryan has advised me and I concur that the MC4 die does work perfectly with the UTX connectors though. I wish they'd stop coming out out with new connectors. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 10/15/2016 8:27 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Bob > > Both UL and the NEC say you have to follow OEM instructions. > MC says no to any connection except to another MC. > > Amphenol H4 uses same crimper as MC4. > > Contact Bryan at PV CABLES > 707-923-3000 > > Jay > Peltz power. > > >> On Oct 14, 2016, at 5:26 PM, RE Ellison wrote: >> >> I have a bunch of panels here to put in with an Amphenol H4 connector >> Seems like I remember some issues connecting some of the other connectors to the MC 4's >> >> Do these hook up with the MC 4's without any issues or do I need to find some of the H4 connectors to use ? >> >> Thanks, >> Bob Ellison >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- From dana at solarwork.com Sat Oct 15 18:03:39 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 16:03:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) In-Reply-To: <37E0DAD3-859D-4C11-ADA2-B36520A14A66@mavericksolar.com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> <002601d22668$bdc3dd70$394b9850$@com> <37E0DAD3-859D-4C11-ADA2-B36520A14A66@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <002d01d2272f$fcde29d0$f69a7d70$@com> Yes Maverick, the Honda is an electric start & someone sold & tried to install an aftermarket start kit, several folks have worked on it and all to no avail. Thanks on the battery suggestions I was about to call my Full River rep on Monday. __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2016 11:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) Is that Honda an electric start? If so, what model it it? As for batteries, I suggest Concorde AGM PVX-9150HT for 915Ah or Fullriver DC1150-2 for 1150Ah. Both are great choices and very rugged. Concorde & FR both may already have them stocked there. On Oct 14, 2016, at 5:17 PM, Dana wrote: This client is on Kauai, her cloudy winter storms average 4-5 days. She has a generator [Honda] not an auto start, that several folks have tried to integrate as auto start with no success. Battery maintenance is a challenge for her, as could be expected with a pile of T-105 style batteries, etc. I can hear folks saying “well maybe she should not be off grid.” She does not have another living option & I feel just requires a minor upgrade & correction to a poor original install. I suggested a set of HUP Solar Ones & the freight was huge to the islands. __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 3:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) Dana (and I'm curious if others agree), I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were expensive and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years these two have reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear - my fundamental design approach has changed. I now design around 2-3 days of storage with a larger array, as long as there's a backup generator in the system. I size to at least 100% of the projected winter average daily load. The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping them happier and giving them as much or more life, even with more and deeper cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the customer spends less. You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is it the same in Idaho where you live now? Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 10/14/2016 3:36 PM, Dana wrote: I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said “magical” as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say this. __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have a specific webpage on their site that says this? All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical issues for the installer to overcome. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy < Tom at solar-biz.com> wrote: Hi Dana Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting? If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the past 100 years? Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com **Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: tom at solar-biz.comPlease update your records so we don’t lose touch!** Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries Good Morning All, I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA. Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 09:17:12 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 07:17:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) In-Reply-To: <002d01d2272f$fcde29d0$f69a7d70$@com> References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> <002601d22668$bdc3dd70$394b9850$@com> <37E0DAD3-859D-4C11-ADA2-B36520A14A66@mavericksolar.com> <002d01d2272f$fcde29d0$f69a7d70$@com> Message-ID: Dana; I just inherited a client with a Honda EB6500 that was retrofitted with electric start by the previous owner of the property. So, it can be done. It's basically an EM6500 now...without the socket for the remote start cable plug. My task - add a Magnum AGS. Will have to wire in our own socket and make a cable. Wish me luck! Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Dana wrote: > Yes Maverick, the Honda is an electric start & someone sold & tried to > install an aftermarket start kit, several folks have worked on it and all > to no avail. > > *Thanks on *the battery suggestions I was about to call my Full River rep > on Monday*.* > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.biz > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140 c *- *208.721.7003 > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**" * > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Maverick Brown > *Sent:* Saturday, October 15, 2016 11:26 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt > hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) > > > > Is that Honda an electric start? If so, what model it it? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 10:22:40 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 07:22:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol h4 vs MC4 In-Reply-To: References: <55F1F7DF-3C5D-48DB-BD40-055F1B02993C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill Indeed. Thanks for correcting that. It's the h4 version that uses the MC3 crimper dies. I can't seem to keep that one straight. The h4 is a heck of a pin though. Real weight to it. Jay Peltz power. > On Oct 15, 2016, at 7:17 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Jay, > > That may be the same crimper but its not the same dies. Bryan has advised me and I concur that the MC4 die does work perfectly with the UTX connectors though. I wish they'd stop coming out out with new connectors. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > >> On 10/15/2016 8:27 AM, Jay wrote: >> Hi Bob >> >> Both UL and the NEC say you have to follow OEM instructions. >> MC says no to any connection except to another MC. >> >> Amphenol H4 uses same crimper as MC4. >> >> Contact Bryan at PV CABLES >> 707-923-3000 >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> >>> On Oct 14, 2016, at 5:26 PM, RE Ellison wrote: >>> >>> I have a bunch of panels here to put in with an Amphenol H4 connector >>> Seems like I remember some issues connecting some of the other connectors to the MC 4's >>> >>> Do these hook up with the MC 4's without any issues or do I need to find some of the H4 connectors to use ? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Bob Ellison >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Oct 17 09:37:39 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 09:37:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries) In-Reply-To: References: <000901d22622$a8338d20$f89aa760$@com> <000c01d22662$fb2d82c0$f1888840$@com> <59756d07-bc0c-f238-29e8-5b55af6eb631@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <20161017133742.E6C4A10466@che.dreamhost.com> Right. Besides that, batteries have a shelf life. A few years down the line, the client will need to replace the bank. A $10K reinvestment after a few years could erase any cost effectiveness of an off grid system. In many cases they could pay the extra money and hook up to the power line now. At 11:02 AM 10/15/2016, you wrote: >My design philosophy these days matches yours >100%, Allen. Because of cheap PV, and FLA >batteries still stuck in the 1910s. It was a >different story (not too many years ago!) when a >good deal on PV was $5 a watt....... > >Dan Fink >Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >~ PV Installation Professional >~ Small Wind Installer >Executive Director, Buckville Energy >NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >970.672.4342 > > > >On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Allan Sindelar ><allan at sindelarsolar.com> wrote: >Dana (and I'm curious if others agree), >I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back >with modules were expensive and batteries were >relatively cheap. As in recent years these two >have reversed - modules are cheap and batteries >are dear - my fundamental design approach has >changed. I now design around 2-3 days of storage >with a larger array, as long as there's a backup >generator in the system. I size to at least 100% >of the projected winter average daily load. > >The batteries recharge more quickly, including >on partly cloudy days between storms. They spend >more of their time full, thus keeping them >happier and giving them as much or more life, >even with more and deeper cycling. FLAs are >easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the customer spends less. > >You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny >winter climate. Is it the same in Idaho where you live now? >Allan > > >Allan Sindelar >allan at sindelarsolar.com >NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >505 780-2738 cell > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Oct 17 19:49:03 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 17:49:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Wondering if any of you have ever done anything similar to installing on a vertical wall using a horizontal shared rail racking system, array being about 32.8m (110') wide and 26.3m (86') tall The rails obviously have to be exactly perpendicular the entire length so we are taking extra care that the first row (top row) is true and using template spacers for each row down. Only problem is that the top of the building is a concrete parapet and anything but level. Wondering if anyone has any good tips for getting that top row level/square and keeping the rest of the rails perfectly perpendicular? (keeping in mind the length...32.8m (110') Much Thanks, *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Mon Oct 17 20:32:20 2016 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 19:32:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54cca6d4-9a44-430d-aa68-3eb6ab8e8fc3@charter.net> Ben, There are a multitude of laser levels (in a multitude of forms) available to do what I think you are trying to do. The 110 feet might be an issue but if you are consistent you can probably plot the location for halfway and then repeat the process for the second half. Perhaps there is already a level that accommodates the 110 foot range in one effort? Best wishes, let us know what you decided and how it turned out. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 10/17/2016 6:49 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > Wondering if any of you have ever done anything similar to installing > on a vertical wall using a horizontal shared rail racking system, > array being about 32.8m (110') wide and 26.3m (86') tall > > The rails obviously have to be exactly perpendicular the entire length > so we are taking extra care that the first row (top row) is true and > using template spacers for each row down. Only problem is that the > top of the building is a concrete parapet and anything but level. > > Wondering if anyone has any good tips for getting that top row > level/square and keeping the rest of the rails perfectly > perpendicular? (keeping in mind the length...32.8m (110') > > Much Thanks, > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > email facebook > twitter > linkedin > > > > SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal > > *_WE HAVE MOVED!_ Please note our new address above.* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Mon Oct 17 22:54:56 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 21:54:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A Message-ID: <39dcc5b4-881b-e155-8abc-2c41701cbc93@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Oct 17 23:10:10 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 21:10:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails In-Reply-To: <54cca6d4-9a44-430d-aa68-3eb6ab8e8fc3@charter.net> References: <54cca6d4-9a44-430d-aa68-3eb6ab8e8fc3@charter.net> Message-ID: Hey Bill, I've spoken with a couple distributers of quality lasers (Leica, for example) and explained the details and they agree the width and location we are working at poise the real challenges here. The laser beams get a fair bit more difficult to see in the daylight (fortunately for this case the days are getting shorter quicker around here). I agree that some use of a laser will probably work for us, I just thought i'd throw this out there to see if anyone on this list has tackled something similar and see if they have any insights to share. Thanks, *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Bill Loesch wrote: > Ben, > > There are a multitude of laser levels (in a multitude of forms) available > to do what I think you are trying to do. > > The 110 feet might be an issue but if you are consistent you can probably > plot the location for halfway and then repeat the process for the second > half. Perhaps there is already a level that accommodates the 110 foot range > in one effort? Best wishes, let us know what you decided and how it turned > out. > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094 > > On 10/17/2016 6:49 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > Wondering if any of you have ever done anything similar to installing on a > vertical wall using a horizontal shared rail racking system, array being > about 32.8m (110') wide and 26.3m (86') tall > > The rails obviously have to be exactly perpendicular the entire length so > we are taking extra care that the first row (top row) is true and using > template spacers for each row down. Only problem is that the top of the > building is a concrete parapet and anything but level. > > Wondering if anyone has any good tips for getting that top row > level/square and keeping the rest of the rails perfectly perpendicular? > (keeping in mind the length...32.8m (110') > > Much Thanks, > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Oct 17 22:16:35 2016 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Solar work) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 20:16:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AB2E84C-0303-42CB-B105-FDCC74F30A62@solarwork.com> I have taken adjustable ground mount racks & flipped them upside down. They work great as long as you got something safe to bolt securely to like unistrut or through like concrete. Dana Orzel 2087217003 Great Solarworks Inc - NABCEP#051112-136 E-dana at solarwork.com c-2087217003 "Responsible Technology for Responsible People since 1988" On Oct 17, 2016, at 5:49 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Hello Wrenches, Wondering if any of you have ever done anything similar to installing on a vertical wall using a horizontal shared rail racking system, array being about 32.8m (110') wide and 26.3m (86') tall The rails obviously have to be exactly perpendicular the entire length so we are taking extra care that the first row (top row) is true and using template spacers for each row down. Only problem is that the top of the building is a concrete parapet and anything but level. Wondering if anyone has any good tips for getting that top row level/square and keeping the rest of the rails perfectly perpendicular? (keeping in mind the length...32.8m (110') Much Thanks, Benn Kilburn CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Oct 18 06:41:48 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 06:41:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails In-Reply-To: <1AB2E84C-0303-42CB-B105-FDCC74F30A62@solarwork.com> References: <1AB2E84C-0303-42CB-B105-FDCC74F30A62@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hey Benn, Just curious as to who's rail you're using that is rated for such a steep angle? Christopher On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:16 PM, Dana Solar work wrote: > I have taken adjustable > ground mount racks & flipped them upside down. They work great as long as > you got something safe to bolt securely to like unistrut or through like > concrete. > > Dana Orzel 2087217003 > Great Solarworks Inc - NABCEP#051112-136 > E-dana at solarwork.com c-2087217003 > "Responsible Technology for Responsible People since 1988" > > On Oct 17, 2016, at 5:49 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > Wondering if any of you have ever done anything similar to installing on a > vertical wall using a horizontal shared rail racking system, array being > about 32.8m (110') wide and 26.3m (86') tall > > The rails obviously have to be exactly perpendicular the entire length so > we are taking extra care that the first row (top row) is true and using > template spacers for each row down. Only problem is that the top of the > building is a concrete parapet and anything but level. > > Wondering if anyone has any good tips for getting that top row > level/square and keeping the rest of the rails perfectly perpendicular? > (keeping in mind the length...32.8m (110') > > Much Thanks, > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Oct 18 07:41:12 2016 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 05:41:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails In-Reply-To: References: <1AB2E84C-0303-42CB-B105-FDCC74F30A62@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <7718085A-E360-40B8-BD32-44238C55DF01@skyfireenergy.com> Chris, It's s Kinetic rail and they have given the go-ahead. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Oct 18, 2016, at 4:41 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Hey Benn, > Just curious as to who's rail you're using that is rated for such a steep angle? > > Christopher > >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:16 PM, Dana Solar work wrote: >> I have taken adjustable >> ground mount racks & flipped them upside down. They work great as long as you got something safe to bolt securely to like unistrut or through like concrete. >> >> Dana Orzel 2087217003 >> Great Solarworks Inc - NABCEP#051112-136 >> E-dana at solarwork.com c-2087217003 >> "Responsible Technology for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> On Oct 17, 2016, at 5:49 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> Wondering if any of you have ever done anything similar to installing on a vertical wall using a horizontal shared rail racking system, array being about 32.8m (110') wide and 26.3m (86') tall >> >> The rails obviously have to be exactly perpendicular the entire length so we are taking extra care that the first row (top row) is true and using template spacers for each row down. Only problem is that the top of the building is a concrete parapet and anything but level. >> >> Wondering if anyone has any good tips for getting that top row level/square and keeping the rest of the rails perfectly perpendicular? (keeping in mind the length...32.8m (110') >> >> Much Thanks, >> Benn Kilburn >> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >> 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 >> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >> >> >> WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 08:01:44 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 08:01:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use a laser plumb, sit it on the ground over your marks and loft the marks to the top. It will be very accurate. On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > Wondering if any of you have ever done anything similar to installing on a > vertical wall using a horizontal shared rail racking system, array being > about 32.8m (110') wide and 26.3m (86') tall > > The rails obviously have to be exactly perpendicular the entire length so > we are taking extra care that the first row (top row) is true and using > template spacers for each row down. Only problem is that the top of the > building is a concrete parapet and anything but level. > > Wondering if anyone has any good tips for getting that top row > level/square and keeping the rest of the rails perfectly perpendicular? > (keeping in mind the length...32.8m (110') > > Much Thanks, > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Oct 18 09:29:41 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:29:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A In-Reply-To: <39dcc5b4-881b-e155-8abc-2c41701cbc93@IcarusSolarServices.c om> References: <39dcc5b4-881b-e155-8abc-2c41701cbc93@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <20161018133026.9B5C010696@che.dreamhost.com> It looks like way too much power to AC couple with a 4KW Radian. Be sure to talk to an Outback engineer in great detail before using the GSLC175AC-120/240. At 10:54 PM 10/17/2016, you wrote: >Esteemed Wrenches: > >Anyone have experience setting up AC coupling >with SolarEdge and the Outback Radian? > >I have a client with a SolarEdge SE10000A-US >inverter, equipped with 31 SunPower X21-345 >modules (10.7kWp) and associated SolarEdge P400 >DC optimizers. The DC optimizers are arranged >into two strings of series connected optimizers: #1 = 16; #2 = 15. > >The client wants to add a limited battery backup >solution, and a 4kW inverter will serve the >needs of the requisite protected loads panel. > >I am considering using the Outback Radian >GS4048A inverter in conjunction with the GSLC175-AC-120/240 AC-Coupling Center. > >I want to make a slight change to the PRI >programming on the SolarEdge inverter, and add >another relay contact to the Radian, to >accommodate a 4kW Outback inverter AC coupled to a 10kW SolarEdge inverter. > >This is my first AC coupling project with these >systems. The analysis below is based solely on >review of available documents on the Outback and SolarEdge web sites. > >Any help or guidance will be greatly appreciated. > >Regards, > >Gary Willett >Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC > >References: >(1) Outback Application Note "AC Coupling >OutBack Power Radian Inverters with SolarEdge N. American Inverters" >http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/technotes/ac_coupling_tech_note.pdf > >(2) Outback Application Note "Adding the battery >back-up power option to existing grid-tied PV/solar systems" >http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/flexcoupled/app_note_acc_new.pdf > >(3) SolarEdge Application Note "SolarEdge Inverters, Power Control Options" >http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/application_note_power_control_configuration.pdf > >REF (2); Page 9 of 14 - Outback's AC Coupling Guideline Number Two: >The OutBack inverter power rating should be >1.25% of the GT inverter power rating. This >guideline ensures that the GT inverter does not >overwhelm the charging circuitry in the OutBack >inverter if the load demand goes to zero and all >available GT inverter power is flowing to the OutBack inverter. > >With the 4kW GS4048A inverter, the PV power >rating is therefore limited to 3.2kW. This is >30% of the nameplate rating of the PV array (3.2/10.7). > >REF (3); Page 4 of 5 - SolarEdge/OutBack Radian Wiring Diagram: >On the male connector that fits into the PRI >connector on the SolarEdge PCB, two wires are >connected from the OutBack GSLC load center 12V relay (OBR-16-DIN). > >When activated, a normally open contact (NO) of >the Outback OBR-16-DIN 12V relay supplies +5V >from "pin 8" to "pin 6" of the SolarEdge >inverter's "Power Reduction Interface (PRI) port". > >REF (1); Page 3 of 5 - SolarEdge Setup / Programming: >Per the App Note, when the Radian wants to shut >down the SolarEdge, the OBR-16-DIN 12V relay is >activated and a "1" is applied to bit 1 of the >PRI. This takes the SolarEdge output power, in a >gradual manner, from 100% to 0%. > >"DEFAULT" SolarEdge Programming >0000 <100,1,00,Y> ----meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active >0001 <0,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > >For my project, when the grid is down, the >SolarEdge inverter must be limited to 30% power. >I want to use the second NO/NC contact on the >OBR-16-DIN 12V relay to accomplish this. Not yet >sure exactly how to accomplish this in the >Radian programming, but here's how I want it to function: >(a) when the grid is down, the second OBR >contact, connected to bit 2 of the PRI, is >activated and a "1" is applied to bit 2. This >takes the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 100% to 30%. > >(b) when the Radian wants to shut down the >SolarEdge, a "1" is applied to bit 1. This takes >the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 30% to 0%. > >"PROPOSED" SolarEdge Programming >0000 <100,1,00,Y> ----meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active >0001 <0,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active >0010 <30,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 30% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active >0011 <0,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > >Is this doable? > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Oct 18 10:23:23 2016 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:23:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A In-Reply-To: <39dcc5b4-881b-e155-8abc-2c41701cbc93@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <39dcc5b4-881b-e155-8abc-2c41701cbc93@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <893D41E1-B97A-479D-A966-7404C37154AB@mavericksolar.com> How many kWh are you shooting for? > On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:54 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches: > > Anyone have experience setting up AC coupling with SolarEdge and the Outback Radian? > > I have a client with a SolarEdge SE10000A-US inverter, equipped with 31 SunPower X21-345 modules (10.7kWp) and associated SolarEdge P400 DC optimizers. The DC optimizers are arranged into two strings of series connected optimizers: #1 = 16; #2 = 15. > > The client wants to add a limited battery backup solution, and a 4kW inverter will serve the needs of the requisite protected loads panel. > > I am considering using the Outback Radian GS4048A inverter in conjunction with the GSLC175-AC-120/240 AC-Coupling Center. > > I want to make a slight change to the PRI programming on the SolarEdge inverter, and add another relay contact to the Radian, to accommodate a 4kW Outback inverter AC coupled to a 10kW SolarEdge inverter. > > This is my first AC coupling project with these systems. The analysis below is based solely on review of available documents on the Outback and SolarEdge web sites. > > Any help or guidance will be greatly appreciated. > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC > > References: > (1) Outback Application Note "AC Coupling OutBack Power Radian Inverters with SolarEdge N. American Inverters" > http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/technotes/ac_coupling_tech_note.pdf > > (2) Outback Application Note "Adding the battery back-up power option to existing grid-tied PV/solar systems" > http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/flexcoupled/app_note_acc_new.pdf > > (3) SolarEdge Application Note "SolarEdge Inverters, Power Control Options" > http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/application_note_power_control_configuration.pdf > REF (2); Page 9 of 14 - Outback's AC Coupling Guideline Number Two: > The OutBack inverter power rating should be 1.25% of the GT inverter power rating. This guideline ensures that the GT inverter does not overwhelm the charging circuitry in the OutBack inverter if the load demand goes to zero and all available GT inverter power is flowing to the OutBack inverter. > > With the 4kW GS4048A inverter, the PV power rating is therefore limited to 3.2kW. This is 30% of the nameplate rating of the PV array (3.2/10.7). > REF (3); Page 4 of 5 - SolarEdge/OutBack Radian Wiring Diagram: > On the male connector that fits into the PRI connector on the SolarEdge PCB, two wires are connected from the OutBack GSLC load center 12V relay (OBR-16-DIN). > When activated, a normally open contact (NO) of the Outback OBR-16-DIN 12V relay supplies +5V from "pin 8" to "pin 6" of the SolarEdge inverter's "Power Reduction Interface (PRI) port". > REF (1); Page 3 of 5 - SolarEdge Setup / Programming: > Per the App Note, when the Radian wants to shut down the SolarEdge, the OBR-16-DIN 12V relay is activated and a "1" is applied to bit 1 of the PRI. This takes the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 100% to 0%. > "DEFAULT" SolarEdge Programming > 0000 <100,1,00,Y> ----meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > 0001 <0,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > For my project, when the grid is down, the SolarEdge inverter must be limited to 30% power. I want to use the second NO/NC contact on the OBR-16-DIN 12V relay to accomplish this. Not yet sure exactly how to accomplish this in the Radian programming, but here's how I want it to function: > (a) when the grid is down, the second OBR contact, connected to bit 2 of the PRI, is activated and a "1" is applied to bit 2. This takes the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 100% to 30%. > > (b) when the Radian wants to shut down the SolarEdge, a "1" is applied to bit 1. This takes the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 30% to 0%. > "PROPOSED" SolarEdge Programming > 0000 <100,1,00,Y> ----meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > 0001 <0,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > 0010 <30,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 30% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > 0011 <0,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > Is this doable? > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cpickard at aladdinsolar.com Tue Oct 18 12:42:01 2016 From: cpickard at aladdinsolar.com (cpickard aladdinsolar.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:42:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <162217592.16036.1476808921868@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> Yes, laser level does the trick. Also--don't forget to consider expansion/contraction of a single rail dimension. In Minnesota we would break that long length into two or even three separate mounting sections with an inch or two gap between. Don't forget, the building structure will also experience some expansion/contraction which will not necessarily be in sync with the rail changes. Over time, expansion/contraction could loosen attachment points. --Charlie Pickard TruNorth Solar, Aladdin Solar > On October 18, 2016 at 7:01 AM Chris Mason wrote: > > I use a laser plumb, sit it on the ground over your marks and loft the marks to the top. It will be very accurate. > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > Wondering if any of you have ever done anything similar to installing on a vertical wall using a horizontal shared rail racking system, array being about 32.8m (110') wide and 26.3m (86') tall > > > > The rails obviously have to be exactly perpendicular the entire length so we are taking extra care that the first row (top row) is true and using template spacers for each row down. Only problem is that the top of the building is a concrete parapet and anything but level. > > > > Wondering if anyone has any good tips for getting that top row level/square and keeping the rest of the rails perfectly perpendicular? (keeping in mind the length...32.8m (110') > > > > Much Thanks, > > > > > > > > Benn Kilburn > > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > > 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 > > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com http://www.skyfireenergy.com/ > > [email] mailto:benn at skyfireenergy.com [facebook] https://www.facebook.com/SkyFireEnergy [twitter] https://twitter.com/SkyFireEnergy [linkedin] https://www.linkedin.com/company/283735?trk=tyah&trkInfo=tarId%3A1408655033432%2Ctas%3Askyfire%2Cidx%3A2-2-5 > > > > > > > > [SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > > > WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com http://www.cometenergysystems.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Oct 18 14:39:40 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 14:39:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161018184023.16F9E10329@che.dreamhost.com> Depending on your access, something as simple as a water level could work. Garden hoses with clear sections of tubing at each end would transfer the line a good distance. -----Original Message----- From: "Benn Kilburn" Sent: ‎10/‎17/‎2016 19:49 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical wall, shared rails Hello Wrenches, Wondering if any of you have ever done anything similar to installing on a vertical wall using a horizontal shared rail racking system, array being about 32.8m (110') wide and 26.3m (86') tall The rails obviously have to be exactly perpendicular the entire length so we are taking extra care that the first row (top row) is true and using template spacers for each row down. Only problem is that the top of the building is a concrete parapet and anything but level. Wondering if anyone has any good tips for getting that top row level/square and keeping the rest of the rails perfectly perpendicular? (keeping in mind the length...32.8m (110') Much Thanks, *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 – 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] *WE HAVE MOVED! Please note our new address above.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Tue Oct 18 23:30:48 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 22:30:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A In-Reply-To: <893D41E1-B97A-479D-A966-7404C37154AB@mavericksolar.com> References: <39dcc5b4-881b-e155-8abc-2c41701cbc93@IcarusSolarServices.com> <893D41E1-B97A-479D-A966-7404C37154AB@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <2322ad15-9dce-3c55-5cb9-fe927ba6b1f4@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 00:17:56 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 22:17:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A In-Reply-To: <2322ad15-9dce-3c55-5cb9-fe927ba6b1f4@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <39dcc5b4-881b-e155-8abc-2c41701cbc93@IcarusSolarServices.com> <893D41E1-B97A-479D-A966-7404C37154AB@mavericksolar.com> <2322ad15-9dce-3c55-5cb9-fe927ba6b1f4@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Hi Gary, These Solar Edge inverters can use radio ripple control to change power output. Its a simple control strategy that allows control of the power output presumably from a grid-operator. You would need to enable the RRCR. Here is a paper about that http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/power-reduction-control-application-note.pdf You can use 5 VDC signals to perform the power control. Below I pasted a graph of how the inputs work from page 3 of that document : [image: Inline image 1] I believe Chris Mason suggested using an Arduino board to control these 4 inputs very easily, and that would be a nice option. For your needs, I think you can get away with two relays and a robust 5 VDC power supply. You could drive the 1st relay coil with grid voltage. Under normal conditions, you'd apply 5VDC to pin 3 (L4) through the relay (NC contact). Upon loss of grid, pin 3 goes to 0VDC, pin 5(L2) to 5VDC. To drop to 0% power, you may want to trigger based on battery voltage or the blackout relay on the Outback. I can't recall if there is a way to trigger a relay based on SOC with the radian, but that would be a good option too. I'd be curious to hear what you come up with, so please let us know. Good luck On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > Maverick: > > Thanks for responding. You've been very helpful in the past with my > battery based solution questions. > > Daily load demand from the Protected Loads Panel is about 10kWh. > > With 5 average daily peak sun hours, and 75% charging efficiency, the > battery bank will receive about 13kWh of solar charging per day. The > battery bank will be sized for 2 days of autonomy to 80% DoD (2 or 3 > strings of 200RE batteries). A 6kW generator, which will be manually > controlled, will provide charging assistance if the solar charging alone is > not sufficient. > > The 10kW (ac) SE inverter and associated 10.7kWp PV array, using the > "Power Reduction Control" function, would be limited to about 3.5kW (ac). > > Sizing the inverter and battery bank is not my issue - cranking back the > output power of the SE grid-tied inverter is what I need help on. > > The "standard" Outback GSLC solution uses one "Power Reduction Control" > relay (100% to 0%). I want to use two Outback activated relays, and the SE > inverter's "Power Reduction Control" function to: > > (1) reduce the SE inverter power from 100% to 30% when the grid is down > (relay #1) > > (2) reduce the SE inverter power from 30% to 0% when the Radian wants to > totally shut down the SE inverter (relay #2) > > If this two-relay solution is possible, I do not have to kluge up a way to > disconnect 70% of the PV array when the grid is down to keep the > SE10000A-US inverter from overloading the 4kW Radian inverter and its > battery bank. > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC > On 10/18/16 9:23 AM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > How many kWh are you shooting for? > > > > On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:54 PM, Gary Willett > wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches: > > Anyone have experience setting up AC coupling with SolarEdge and the > Outback Radian? > > I have a client with a SolarEdge SE10000A-US inverter, equipped with 31 > SunPower X21-345 modules (10.7kWp) and associated SolarEdge P400 DC > optimizers. The DC optimizers are arranged into two strings of series > connected optimizers: #1 = 16; #2 = 15. > > The client wants to add a limited battery backup solution, and a 4kW > inverter will serve the needs of the requisite protected loads panel. > > I am considering using the Outback Radian GS4048A inverter in conjunction > with the GSLC175-AC-120/240 AC-Coupling Center. > > I want to make a slight change to the PRI programming on the SolarEdge > inverter, and add another relay contact to the Radian, to accommodate a 4kW > Outback inverter AC coupled to a 10kW SolarEdge inverter. > > This is my first AC coupling project with these systems. The analysis > below is based solely on review of available documents on the Outback and > SolarEdge web sites. > > Any help or guidance will be greatly appreciated. > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > Icarus Engineering / Solar Services LLC > > *References*: > > (1) *Outback Application Note "**AC Coupling OutBack Power Radian > Inverters with SolarEdge N. American Inverters**"* > http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/technotes/ > ac_coupling_tech_note.pdf > > (2) *Outback Application Note "**Adding the battery back-up power option > to existing grid-tied PV/solar systems"* > http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/ > flexcoupled/app_note_acc_new.pdf > > (3) *SolarEdge Application Note **"SolarEdge Inverters, Power Control > Options"* > http://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/application_note_power_ > control_configuration.pdf > > *REF (2); Page 9 of 14 - Outback's AC Coupling Guideline Number Two*: > > The OutBack inverter power rating should be 1.25% of the GT inverter power > rating. This guideline ensures that the GT inverter does not overwhelm the > charging circuitry in the OutBack inverter if the load demand goes to zero > and all available GT inverter power is flowing to the OutBack inverter. > > With the 4kW GS4048A inverter, the PV power rating is therefore limited to > 3.2kW. This is 30% of the nameplate rating of the PV array (3.2/10.7). > > *REF (3); Page 4 of 5** - **SolarEdge/OutBack Radian Wiring Diagram*: > > On the male connector that fits into the PRI connector on the SolarEdge > PCB, two wires are connected from the OutBack GSLC load center 12V relay > (OBR-16-DIN). > > When activated, a normally open contact (NO) of the Outback OBR-16-DIN 12V > relay supplies +5V from "pin 8" to "pin 6" of the SolarEdge inverter's > "Power Reduction Interface (PRI) port". > > *REF (1); Page 3 of 5** - **SolarEdge Setup / Programming*: > > Per the App Note, when the Radian wants to shut down the SolarEdge, the > OBR-16-DIN 12V relay is activated and a "1" is applied to bit 1 of the PRI. > This takes the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 100% to 0%. > > *"DEFAULT" SolarEdge Programming* > 0000 <100,1,00,Y> ----meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is > active > 0001 <0,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > > For my project, when the grid is down, the SolarEdge inverter must be > limited to 30% power. I want to use the second NO/NC contact on the > OBR-16-DIN 12V relay to accomplish this. Not yet sure exactly how to > accomplish this in the Radian programming, but here's how I want it to > function: > > (a) when the grid is down, the second OBR contact, connected to bit 2 of > the PRI, is activated and a "1" is applied to bit 2. This takes the > SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 100% to 30%. > > (b) when the Radian wants to shut down the SolarEdge, a "1" is applied to > bit 1. This takes the SolarEdge output power, in a gradual manner, from 30% > to 0%. > > *"PROPOSED" SolarEdge Programming* > 0000 <100,1,00,Y> ----meaning = 100% power, 1.00 power factor, point is > active > 0001 <0,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > 0010 <30,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 30% power, 1.00 power factor, point is > active > 0011 <0,1.00,Y> ----meaning = 0% power, 1.00 power factor, point is active > > Is this doable? > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 35179 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ntrei at 1scom.net Wed Oct 19 11:02:21 2016 From: ntrei at 1scom.net (North Texas Renewable Energy) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 10:02:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol h4 vs MC4 In-Reply-To: References: <55F1F7DF-3C5D-48DB-BD40-055F1B02993C@gmail.com> Message-ID: The only measurable difference is the cross sectional diameter of the O-rings. The result is that one M-C4 to Amphenol connection is loose and the other is very tight. I don't recall which )-ring is smaller but the loose fit could allow moisture in. Jim Duncan North Texas Renewable Energy [retired] >>>> On Oct 14, 2016, at 5:26 PM, RE Ellison wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a bunch of panels here to put in with an Amphenol H4 connector >>>> Seems like I remember some issues connecting some of the other connectors to the MC 4's >>>> >>>> Do these hook up with the MC 4's without any issues or do I need to find some of the H4 connectors to use ? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bob Ellison >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From matthewsirum at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 15:29:51 2016 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:29:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG MonoX NeON LG305N1C-B3 Modules Needed Message-ID: Greetings All, I am in search of LG MonoX NeON LG305N1C-B3 PV modules. I need a few extra modules for a current project in the US. Please email me off list if you know of where I may find some in stock. Thank you. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com From truscitti at taitem.com Wed Oct 19 15:30:44 2016 From: truscitti at taitem.com (Tom Ruscitti) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:30:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Solar Edge SE10000A-US With Outback Radian GS4048A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f45504e-d4f2-a624-746b-1146015b3436@taitem.com> I checked into the PRI strategy a few months back. An Outback applications engineer responded that while they were collaborating with SolarEdge at one time on the method, they don't recommend it any longer and were going to pull the tech note. The response also questioned whether SolarEdge still supports that. I'm not sure if that was referring to hardware capability or was code for "may not warranty systems doing that." I see the SolarEdge tech note is 4 years old as well. Might be worth checking into. - Tom Tom Ruscitti Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Mobile: (607) 220-7022 www.taitem.com From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 21:39:42 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 21:39:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bifacial Panels Message-ID: Wrenchers, A customer is interested in a bifacial panel for a solar canopy at the entrance of their business. They had looked into Lumos and Supreme. Some time ago I had looked into Prism. Right now I'm considering Sunpreme only because they have panels up to 370 Watts. Honestly though, I've never worked with any of these. Anyone have any feedback? Any obvious pros and cons (anything from ease of install, to aesthetics, to durability)? Thanks for any thoughts. Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 19:13:49 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 17:13:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback inverter fan connectors Message-ID: Hi All, I”ve got some spare fans that are OB inverter replacements. I’m looking for the correct connector. I think its the Molex Mini-fit Jr. 4.20mm. Can anyone confirm this? thanks jay From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 25 02:41:39 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 23:41:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate 3 and Hub: Questions and warnings Message-ID: Friends: I recently managed to blow up a Hub 10.3. We are using Beldon 600 Volt rated Cat-5 cable and it is a bear to make up on RJ45 connectors. It seems I managed to short at least two of the leads. Apparently there is no overcurrent protection in these hubs. I saw a rather sizable spark generated inside the Hub when I plugged the defective lead in. Now we have Ethernet cable testers in all of the rigs and we test each cable before connecting. Outback, if you are listening, this should not be. The circuitry should have protection. This little boo-boo cost me over $250.00. Bad design! I also recently managed to damage a Mate3. I am not quite sure how it happened, but I suspect I reversed a hub lead with a router lead in the back of the Mate3. The symptoms were: worked fine except would not connect to the internet. No traffic lights on the router. The Hub leads do carry power, so the possibility exists that swapping the leads could cause harm. I asked a technician at Outback if swapping leads would cause this problem. I was told in no uncertain terms, “Yes.” “No.” “I don’t know.” Does anyone else on this list have any experience with this problem? If indeed the easily-accomplished swapping of leads into adjacent connectors in a hard-to-reach area of this controller will cause its demise, this seems like bad engineering. We will be strain-relieving these cables in such a manner as to make it impossible to swap them. While I am on the subject, we continue to have problems with the Mate3 dropping data. Unlike Enphase, that buffers data and can store it until connectivity is restored, the Mate3 just loses an hour of data here and an hour of data there. Anyone else experience this? Outback, can you improve on this? We have had less problems with our Optics systems going off-line. It happens, but less frequently. This used to happen so often we devised relays that are remotely operated using a Control-by-Web system to reboot the Mates when they locked up. I am interested in anyone’s experience in this particular area as well. We had sourced 600 volt rated Cat5e to run alongside high voltage leads. I confess ignorance in that until a few weeks ago, I did not realize that the garden-variety Cat5e is rated for 300 volts. This is suitable for colocation with the voltages usually found in off-grid systems. It may not be adequate for string systems that exceed the 300 volts. Anyway, that’s what I have been learning the hard way lately. I hope someone can learn from my mistakes. If anyone has anything to add, I am always looking for extra input. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Tue Oct 25 19:53:34 2016 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:53:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace T220 Message-ID: <91F36C51-0999-4DBF-9EDA-ACD456A2F65D@solareagle.com> Hi Wrenches, looking for help from someone who remembers the old T220 Autotransformer from Trace. I have a used one and it came with built in 15a fuses which seem small. I’m wondering if the size of the transformer actually changed with the T240 subsequent version or if the 25a breakers in the T240 were just considered a more acceptable design component for the time. Bottom line is would it be advisable to change out the built in 15a for a higher rating to use this as a balancing transformer on 240v output from a generator. Ron From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Oct 26 00:32:26 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 22:32:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace T220 In-Reply-To: <91F36C51-0999-4DBF-9EDA-ACD456A2F65D@solareagle.com> References: <91F36C51-0999-4DBF-9EDA-ACD456A2F65D@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Ron, Shooting from memory here... the T220 was rated at 2800 watts max, as compared to the later T240, which is rated at 3900 watts continuous. At 240 VAC 2800W is just a bit over 10A. Given that use as a balancing autotransformer for a generator is continuous duty, this capacity rating is most likely due to how much heat it can tolerate. Given this the 15A fusing seems quite appropriate and I wouldn't change it. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 10/25/2016 5:53 PM, RM You wrote: > Hi Wrenches, looking for help from someone who remembers the old T220 Autotransformer from Trace. I have a used one and it came with built in 15a fuses which seem small. I’m wondering if the size of the transformer actually changed with the T240 subsequent version or if the 25a breakers in the T240 were just considered a more acceptable design component for the time. Bottom line is would it be advisable to change out the built in 15a for a higher rating to use this as a balancing transformer on 240v output from a generator. > > Ron > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Oct 27 02:40:29 2016 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 23:40:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace T220 In-Reply-To: References: <91F36C51-0999-4DBF-9EDA-ACD456A2F65D@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <3BE73F74-474E-4740-982C-5FFA03F4FA93@solareagle.com> Great memory Allan! Thanks. Ron > On Oct 25, 2016, at 9:32 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Ron, > Shooting from memory here... the T220 was rated at 2800 watts max, as compared to the later T240, which is rated at 3900 watts continuous. At 240 VAC 2800W is just a bit over 10A. Given that use as a balancing autotransformer for a generator is continuous duty, this capacity rating is most likely due to how much heat it can tolerate. Given this the 15A fusing seems quite appropriate and I wouldn't change it. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 10/25/2016 5:53 PM, RM You wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, looking for help from someone who remembers the old T220 Autotransformer from Trace. I have a used one and it came with built in 15a fuses which seem small. I’m wondering if the size of the transformer actually changed with the T240 subsequent version or if the 25a breakers in the T240 were just considered a more acceptable design component for the time. Bottom line is would it be advisable to change out the built in 15a for a higher rating to use this as a balancing transformer on 240v output from a generator. >> >> Ron >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Fri Oct 28 06:28:09 2016 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 06:28:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for wrench in Teaneck NJ Message-ID: A have a family friend interested in going solar in 2017. Please contact me offlist if you serve northern NJ or have a recommendation. Thanks -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext. 115 http://www.buildingenergyvt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Oct 28 10:28:05 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 10:28:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question about the Tax Credit Message-ID: Hi Folks, I known most of us are not tax consultants, but I'm hoping someone has run into the issue before. I've been hunting around for an answer to a question a client has about utilizing the 30% *residential* solar tax credit, but have been unsuccessful at finding an answer, and was hoping that someone could either give a stab at it or direct me to someone who may know the answer. Here's the question: If someone installs a system on the home in tax year 2016, but is unable to utilize the credit due to not enough or no tax liability for tax year 2016, I know they can roll the credit forward for 1 year (in other words they can spread the credit over 1 succeeding year past the tax year they first claim the credit for. What I'm not clear on is whether an individual needs to claim the tax credit starting in the year the system was commissioned, or if they can wait 1 or more tax years to claim the credit and then roll it forward the additional year from that date. So, someone installs and commissions a solar system on their home in November 2016 - can they choose to start taking the tax credit in tax year 2018 or 2019? I've read through lots of online resources both from the IRS and solar related resources, but have not found an answer to this question, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Oct 28 15:13:50 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 13:13:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TIny House Pump Message-ID: <53fbef12-0599-9906-0b81-6efe6a116b4b@solarray.com> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: We have a tiny house project, and need to supply the pressure pump. My go to pump has been the Grundfos MQ series of constant pressure pumps. They have no start up surge, and don't require an external pressure switch or pressure tank. For small part time cabins, we've used the Shurflo or Aquatec diapraghm pumps. In this case, I fee that the Grundfos is overkill at 10 GPM, and that the RV pumps won't last very long in full time use. Any other choices out there I should be looking at? I'm thinking 3 GPM max will be fine, but I would like something more reliable. The pump would be preferred to be 120 vac, but I might consider a 24 vdc unit if it otherwise fits the bill. As always, thanks in advance for all your comments and suggestions. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 16:06:48 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 14:06:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TIny House Pump In-Reply-To: <53fbef12-0599-9906-0b81-6efe6a116b4b@solarray.com> References: <53fbef12-0599-9906-0b81-6efe6a116b4b@solarray.com> Message-ID: <8C0A1ACD-027C-4391-B722-BDB9CA68AA45@gmail.com> You could look at the rotary vane pump ( dankoff for example). They come in 24v, quiet, require extremely good filtration, much smaller than the MQ but you’ll need a small pressure tank. jay peltz power > On Oct 28, 2016, at 1:13 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > We have a tiny house project, and need to supply the pressure pump. My go to pump has been the Grundfos MQ series of constant pressure pumps. They have no start up surge, and don't require an external pressure switch or pressure tank. For small part time cabins, we've used the Shurflo or Aquatec diapraghm pumps. > In this case, I fee that the Grundfos is overkill at 10 GPM, and that the RV pumps won't last very long in full time use. Any other choices out there I should be looking at? > I'm thinking 3 GPM max will be fine, but I would like something more reliable. The pump would be preferred to be 120 vac, but I might consider a 24 vdc unit if it otherwise fits the bill. > > As always, thanks in advance for all your comments and suggestions. > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Fri Oct 28 17:29:52 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 15:29:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TIny House Pump In-Reply-To: <8C0A1ACD-027C-4391-B722-BDB9CA68AA45@gmail.com> References: <53fbef12-0599-9906-0b81-6efe6a116b4b@solarray.com> <8C0A1ACD-027C-4391-B722-BDB9CA68AA45@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I've definitely used the Dankoff Flolight before. I've seen them last over 15 years. Cost is higher than the Grundfos though. I'm dreaming of something in the $200 - $300 range. Basically a really beefed up Shurflo, or dumbed down Grundfos MQ. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/28/2016 2:06 PM, jay wrote: > You could look at the rotary vane pump ( dankoff for example). They come in 24v, quiet, require extremely good filtration, much smaller than the MQ but you’ll need a small pressure tank. > > jay > > peltz power >> On Oct 28, 2016, at 1:13 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: >> >> We have a tiny house project, and need to supply the pressure pump. My go to pump has been the Grundfos MQ series of constant pressure pumps. They have no start up surge, and don't require an external pressure switch or pressure tank. For small part time cabins, we've used the Shurflo or Aquatec diapraghm pumps. >> In this case, I fee that the Grundfos is overkill at 10 GPM, and that the RV pumps won't last very long in full time use. Any other choices out there I should be looking at? >> I'm thinking 3 GPM max will be fine, but I would like something more reliable. The pump would be preferred to be 120 vac, but I might consider a 24 vdc unit if it otherwise fits the bill. >> >> As always, thanks in advance for all your comments and suggestions. >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 13:03:03 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 13:03:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TIny House Pump In-Reply-To: <53fbef12-0599-9906-0b81-6efe6a116b4b@solarray.com> References: <53fbef12-0599-9906-0b81-6efe6a116b4b@solarray.com> Message-ID: Boats have small pressure switched potable water pumps running on DC. The pumps from manufacturers like Jabsco last for a long time and can be rebuilt. https://www.amazon.com/Jabsco-31620-0092-Marine-Pressure-Outlets/dp/B000O8B4CG/ref=sr_1_10?s=boating-water-sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1477760477&sr=1-10 On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > We have a tiny house project, and need to supply the pressure pump. My go > to pump has been the Grundfos MQ series of constant pressure pumps. They > have no start up surge, and don't require an external pressure switch or > pressure tank. For small part time cabins, we've used the Shurflo or > Aquatec diapraghm pumps. > In this case, I fee that the Grundfos is overkill at 10 GPM, and that the > RV pumps won't last very long in full time use. Any other choices out > there I should be looking at? > I'm thinking 3 GPM max will be fine, but I would like something more > reliable. The pump would be preferred to be 120 vac, but I might consider > a 24 vdc unit if it otherwise fits the bill. > > As always, thanks in advance for all your comments and suggestions. > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 14:50:35 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 12:50:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TIny House Pump In-Reply-To: <53fbef12-0599-9906-0b81-6efe6a116b4b@solarray.com> References: <53fbef12-0599-9906-0b81-6efe6a116b4b@solarray.com> Message-ID: I have had very few reliability issues with the Shurflo 2088 series, and have a dozen of them in the field for clients in 12V, 24V and 120VAC. My house is full-time, as is my guest cabin, both have 2, one 12V for house pressure and one 120VAC underground for filling the cisterns from springs. The diaphragm pump head is easy to rebuild or replace, as is the pressure switch. I've only had to do that once at my house, after 15 years of service. I recommend the heat sink version at 12V, that can be a failure point if run time is extended. Other failure point - lightning with the underground spring pumps. ALWAYS use a pressure tank, even if it's just the little Shurflo one, otherwise they surge and pulse, which will reduce motor lifetime drastically. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: > > We have a tiny house project, and need to supply the pressure pump. My go > to pump has been the Grundfos MQ series of constant pressure pumps. They > have no start up surge, and don't require an external pressure switch or > pressure tank. For small part time cabins, we've used the Shurflo or > Aquatec diapraghm pumps. > In this case, I fee that the Grundfos is overkill at 10 GPM, and that the > RV pumps won't last very long in full time use. Any other choices out > there I should be looking at? > I'm thinking 3 GPM max will be fine, but I would like something more > reliable. The pump would be preferred to be 120 vac, but I might consider > a 24 vdc unit if it otherwise fits the bill. > > As always, thanks in advance for all your comments and suggestions. > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 20:50:30 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 20:50:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit in a slab Message-ID: Wrenches, I have a project where the DC run is going through the wall system of the house, down through the slab, out the building underground and into another building. My preference would be to run PVC in the slab and then stub out of it with a metal 90. I'm unclear if that is allowed. Is conduit in the slab considered to be inside the house and therefore should be metal? Thanks for any thoughts. Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Oct 30 02:12:06 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 00:12:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit in a slab In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00fbff4d-6c57-cbea-c87a-d4a909ef226b@sindelarsolar.com> Adam, Over time earth can be corrosive to metal, which is why good practice here is to use PVC below grade and transition to EMT once the conduit is exposed above grade. I suspect that concrete would have similar effects. In New Mexico, state Code requires Schedule 80 if PVC is used above grade, I suspect primarily because of the intensity of our high-elevation sun, so by that logic you'd use a Sch. 80 90 sweep to exit the slab, then transition. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 10/29/2016 6:50 PM, AE Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > I have a project where the DC run is going through the wall system of > the house, down through the slab, out the building underground and > into another building. My preference would be to run PVC in the slab > and then stub out of it with a metal 90. > I'm unclear if that is allowed. Is conduit in the slab considered to > be inside the house and therefore should be metal? Thanks for any > thoughts. > Adam > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 07:25:14 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 07:25:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit in a slab In-Reply-To: <00fbff4d-6c57-cbea-c87a-d4a909ef226b@sindelarsolar.com> References: <00fbff4d-6c57-cbea-c87a-d4a909ef226b@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks Allan, I agree the PVC is better for corrosion, but if I sweep up with PVC I will be running DC in PVC inside the house for however many inches it takes to convert to EMT...which is a part I'm not sure about. On Sunday, October 30, 2016, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Adam, > Over time earth can be corrosive to metal, which is why good practice here > is to use PVC below grade and transition to EMT once the conduit is exposed > above grade. I suspect that concrete would have similar effects. In New > Mexico, state Code requires Schedule 80 if PVC is used above grade, I > suspect primarily because of the intensity of our high-elevation sun, so by > that logic you'd use a Sch. 80 90 sweep to exit the slab, then transition. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > On 10/29/2016 6:50 PM, AE Solar wrote: > > Wrenches, > I have a project where the DC run is going through the wall system of the > house, down through the slab, out the building underground and into another > building. My preference would be to run PVC in the slab and then stub out > of it with a metal 90. > I'm unclear if that is allowed. Is conduit in the slab considered to be > inside the house and therefore should be metal? Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Sun Oct 30 19:10:31 2016 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 16:10:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TIny House Pump (Dan Fink) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80E908E0-5ED6-4731-B615-02B7ABE0C5D2@mac.com> I agree with Dan that the Shurflo is a viable approach. I have used them many times when either budget or silty water made Flowlight Booster Pump out of the question. I would add a bit more advice to get the best results: 1. Pressure tank, absolutely and it can’t be too big. Shurlo plastic tank is tiny. For same $ you can get a larger steel one. Install a pressure gauge. Be SURE to set the air pre-charge according to instructions after observing pump pressure range. 2. Standard AC pressure switch can be used, and it will last forever. 3. For the OUTLET pipe from the Shurflo, use 1/2 or 3/4” braided vinyl tube, from any hardware store - with barb fittings. Use about a 7 foot length, rolled up if necessary. It will damp the pulsations very effectively. Pump will last longer, and there won’t be noise through the pipes. I use flex on the intake too, to make installation and service easy. No need to make it long for damping. Windy Dankoff / founder, retired Dankoff Solar Pumps, Consultant & Co-author, Solar Water Pumping (Taylor & Francis) for 2017 publication > On Oct 30, 2016, at 11:00 AM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: TIny House Pump (Dan Fink) > 2. Conduit in a slab (AE Solar) > 3. Re: Conduit in a slab (Allan Sindelar) > 4. Re: Conduit in a slab (AE Solar) > > From: Dan Fink > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TIny House Pump > Date: October 29, 2016 at 11:50:35 AM PDT > To: RE-wrenches > > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at jordansolar.net Sun Oct 30 19:22:34 2016 From: travis at jordansolar.net (Travis Jordan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 17:22:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit in a slab Message-ID: I think NEC article 230.6 might answer your question? I copied it part of it below if that helps... Later, Travis Jordan 230.6 Conductors Considered Outside the Building. Conductors shall be considered outside of a building or other structure under any of the following conditions: (1) Where installed under not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete beneath a building or other structure (2) Where installed within a building or other structure in a raceway that is encased in concrete or brick not less than 50 mm (2 in.) thick -- *Travis Jordan* travis at jordansolar.net *877-215-8431, Ext. 104* *Cell: 406-274-1230* *Jordan Solar* *jordansolar.net* [image: Jordan Solar Logo] Solar PV Installer # 031409-69 MT EL License # ELE-EJ-LIC-9886 WA EL License# TRAVIJE901PK ID EL Masters # 010810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Oct 31 11:24:51 2016 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 08:24:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TIny House Pump (Dan Fink) In-Reply-To: <80E908E0-5ED6-4731-B615-02B7ABE0C5D2@mac.com> References: <80E908E0-5ED6-4731-B615-02B7ABE0C5D2@mac.com> Message-ID: <557558E4-C018-41EA-B14C-3286D49A8356@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Windy and all Great to see you chime in here Windy -it's been many years! I have a customer off grid in the Caribbean with a 230V 50 hz Radian. Is there any equivalent to the Flowlight Booster Pump for 50hz? Any Positive Displacement pressurizing pumps for 50hz? Thanks! Jeff Clearwater Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 30, 2016, at 4:10 PM, Windy Dankoff wrote: > > I agree with Dan that the Shurflo is a viable approach. I have used them many times when either budget or silty water made Flowlight Booster Pump out of the question. I would add a bit more advice to get the best results: > > 1. Pressure tank, absolutely and it can’t be too big. Shurlo plastic tank is tiny. For same $ you can get a larger steel one. Install a pressure gauge. Be SURE to set the air pre-charge according to instructions after observing pump pressure range. > 2. Standard AC pressure switch can be used, and it will last forever. > 3. For the OUTLET pipe from the Shurflo, use 1/2 or 3/4” braided vinyl tube, from any hardware store - with barb fittings. Use about a 7 foot length, rolled up if necessary. It will damp the pulsations very effectively. Pump will last longer, and there won’t be noise through the pipes. I use flex on the intake too, to make installation and service easy. No need to make it long for damping. > > Windy Dankoff / founder, retired Dankoff Solar Pumps, Consultant & > Co-author, Solar Water Pumping (Taylor & Francis) for 2017 publication > > > >> On Oct 30, 2016, at 11:00 AM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: TIny House Pump (Dan Fink) >> 2. Conduit in a slab (AE Solar) >> 3. Re: Conduit in a slab (Allan Sindelar) >> 4. Re: Conduit in a slab (AE Solar) >> >> From: Dan Fink >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TIny House Pump >> Date: October 29, 2016 at 11:50:35 AM PDT >> To: RE-wrenches >> Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Oct 31 13:41:08 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:41:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit in a slab In-Reply-To: References: <00fbff4d-6c57-cbea-c87a-d4a909ef226b@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <0c2785477ea00783afe9369d5df181d0@mail.gmail.com> We run PVC underground but typically transition to RMC starting at the 90 bend underground, up out of the ground, and to a box or conduit body where we then transition to EMT. August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *AE Solar *Sent:* Sunday, October 30, 2016 4:25 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit in a slab Thanks Allan, I agree the PVC is better for corrosion, but if I sweep up with PVC I will be running DC in PVC inside the house for however many inches it takes to convert to EMT...which is a part I'm not sure about. On Sunday, October 30, 2016, Allan Sindelar wrote: Adam, Over time earth can be corrosive to metal, which is why good practice here is to use PVC below grade and transition to EMT once the conduit is exposed above grade. I suspect that concrete would have similar effects. In New Mexico, state Code requires Schedule 80 if PVC is used above grade, I suspect primarily because of the intensity of our high-elevation sun, so by that logic you'd use a Sch. 80 90 sweep to exit the slab, then transition. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 10/29/2016 6:50 PM, AE Solar wrote: Wrenches, I have a project where the DC run is going through the wall system of the house, down through the slab, out the building underground and into another building. My preference would be to run PVC in the slab and then stub out of it with a metal 90. I'm unclear if that is allowed. Is conduit in the slab considered to be inside the house and therefore should be metal? Thanks for any thoughts. Adam _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Mon Oct 31 18:34:25 2016 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:34:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? Message-ID: <20161031153425.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.12a73ed435.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> I realize this is potentially a stupid question, and one that is long overdue, but here goes: Why in 690(B) are we setting a minimum threshold on OCPD when we're protecting against over current? Shouldn't we be setting a maximum threshold...as is done in pretty much all other cases? The way I see it, we should take the array/inverter max output AC current and multiply by 125% to set our min ampacity on wire, and then calc down to find the breaker trade size that lands between the max AC output current and max AC output current times 125%. That way, we avoid nuisance tripping but achieve the max overcurrent protection possible. By following 690(B) we're actually decreasing OCP: Literally, 690(B) is stating that we can have a breaker 100x over the circuit rating, so long as it's not under the circuit rating times 1.25. To me this seems antilogical. Mr. Brooks? 690.9(B) Overcurrent Device Ratings. Overcurrent device ratings shall be not less than 125 percent of the maximum currents calculated in 690.8(A). 455.7(B)...The overcurrent protection determined from this section shall not exceed 125 percent of the phase converter nameplate single-phase input amperes. 450.4(A)...Such overcurrent device shall be rated or set at not more than 125 percent of the rated full-load input current of the autotransformer. 450.5(A)(2) Overcurrent Protection. An overcurrent sensing device shall be provided that will cause the main switch or commontrip overcurrent protection referred to in 450.5(A)(1) to open if the load on the autotransformer reaches or exceeds 125 percent of its continuous current per-phase or neutral rating. 450.5(B)(2)(b) Ampere Rating. The overcurrent protection shall be rated or set at a current not exceeding 125 percent of the autotransformer continuous per-phase current rating or 42 percent of the continuous-current rating of any seriesconnected devices in the autotransformer neutral connection. Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530) 559-5023 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 31 20:41:14 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:41:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? In-Reply-To: <20161031153425.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.12a73ed435.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> References: <20161031153425.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.12a73ed435.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <035301d233d8$a773c3a0$f65b4ae0$@sbcglobal.net> Eric, Your reasoning sounds logical, but it is missing the point. Transformers have to be protected by overcurrent devices, similar to wire. Inverters are current limited devices so they only have to be able to withstand a certain size circuit breaker. The current from the inverter is considered continuous so most circuit breakers are designed to operate at 80% of their rating continuously (therefore the requirement to multiply inverter output current by 125%). Does that make any more sense? Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering 3949 Joslin Lane Vacaville, CA 95688 707-332-0761 (office and mobile) bill at brooksolar.com (email) www.brooksolar.com (web) From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com Sent: Monday, October 31, 2016 3:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? I realize this is potentially a stupid question, and one that is long overdue, but here goes: Why in 690(B) are we setting a minimum threshold on OCPD when we're protecting against over current? Shouldn't we be setting a maximum threshold...as is done in pretty much all other cases? The way I see it, we should take the array/inverter max output AC current and multiply by 125% to set our min ampacity on wire, and then calc down to find the breaker trade size that lands between the max AC output current and max AC output current times 125%. That way, we avoid nuisance tripping but achieve the max overcurrent protection possible. By following 690(B) we're actually decreasing OCP: Literally, 690(B) is stating that we can have a breaker 100x over the circuit rating, so long as it's not under the circuit rating times 1.25. To me this seems antilogical. Mr. Brooks? 690.9(B) Overcurrent Device Ratings. Overcurrent device ratings shall be not less than 125 percent of the maximum currents calculated in 690.8(A). 455.7(B)...The overcurrent protection determined from this section shall not exceed 125 percent of the phase converter nameplate single-phase input amperes. 450.4(A)...Such overcurrent device shall be rated or set at not more than 125 percent of the rated full-load input current of the autotransformer. 450.5(A)(2) Overcurrent Protection. An overcurrent sensing device shall be provided that will cause the main switch or commontrip overcurrent protection referred to in 450.5(A)(1) to open if the load on the autotransformer reaches or exceeds 125 percent of its continuous current per-phase or neutral rating. 450.5(B)(2)(b) Ampere Rating. The overcurrent protection shall be rated or set at a current not exceeding 125 percent of the autotransformer continuous per-phase current rating or 42 percent of the continuous-current rating of any seriesconnected devices in the autotransformer neutral connection. Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530) 559-5023 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Tue Nov 1 14:01:03 2016 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 11:01:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? In-Reply-To: <035301d233d8$a773c3a0$f65b4ae0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20161101110103.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.cbc56b02fd.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Bill, OK. I think I get it. We're protecting against nuisance tripping due to heat build up over time at breaker terminals resulting from continuous loads/sources of current. I understand that you mean an inverter, as a continuous power source, needs to be "allowed" greater flexibility (125%) of current constraint in order to function when you mention having to "withstand" a certain size breaker. However, we're still missing the actual "overcurrent" protection part, no? Obviously there's Article 240. But that's still not setting a max OCPD size, right?...unless I am missing something. I won't blame you if you decide you have more important things to attend than educating me on the nuances of the NEC. I'm still learning and I do greatly appreciate your insight! Eric --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Date: 10/31/16 5:41 pm To: "'RE-wrenches'" Eric, Your reasoning sounds logical, but it is missing the point. Transformers have to be protected by overcurrent devices, similar to wire. Inverters are current limited devices so they only have to be able to withstand a certain size circuit breaker. The current from the inverter is considered continuous so most circuit breakers are designed to operate at 80% of their rating continuously (therefore the requirement to multiply inverter output current by 125%). Does that make any more sense? Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering 3949 Joslin Lane Vacaville, CA 95688 707-332-0761 (office and mobile) bill at brooksolar.com (email) www.brooksolar.com (web) From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com Sent: Monday, October 31, 2016 3:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? I realize this is potentially a stupid question, and one that is long overdue, but here goes: Why in 690(B) are we setting a minimum threshold on OCPD when we're protecting against over current? Shouldn't we be setting a maximum threshold...as is done in pretty much all other cases? The way I see it, we should take the array/inverter max output AC current and multiply by 125% to set our min ampacity on wire, and then calc down to find the breaker trade size that lands between the max AC output current and max AC output current times 125%. That way, we avoid nuisance tripping but achieve the max overcurrent protection possible. By following 690(B) we're actually decreasing OCP: Literally, 690(B) is stating that we can have a breaker 100x over the circuit rating, so long as it's not under the circuit rating times 1.25. To me this seems antilogical. Mr. Brooks? 690.9(B) Overcurrent Device Ratings. Overcurrent device ratings shall be not less than 125 percent of the maximum currents calculated in 690.8(A). 455.7(B)...The overcurrent protection determined from this section shall not exceed 125 percent of the phase converter nameplate single-phase input amperes. 450.4(A)...Such overcurrent device shall be rated or set at not more than 125 percent of the rated full-load input current of the autotransformer. 450.5(A)(2) Overcurrent Protection. An overcurrent sensing device shall be provided that will cause the main switch or commontrip overcurrent protection referred to in 450.5(A)(1) to open if the load on the autotransformer reaches or exceeds 125 percent of its continuous current per-phase or neutral rating. 450.5(B)(2)(b) Ampere Rating. The overcurrent protection shall be rated or set at a current not exceeding 125 percent of the autotransformer continuous per-phase current rating or 42 percent of the continuous-current rating of any seriesconnected devices in the autotransformer neutral connection. Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530) 559-5023 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Tue Nov 1 15:21:37 2016 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 12:21:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? In-Reply-To: <20161101110103.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.cbc56b02fd.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <20161101122137.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.2c77d55907.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Bill et al., I received a call from Dan and he cleared things up for me. I have a better understanding of what's happening here in this section of the code. Again, thanks for taking the time to spread some knowledge. I really do appreciate you responding to my green inquiry. Still learning, always learning, Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? From: eric at harvesthesun.com Date: 11/1/16 11:01 am To: "RE-wrenches" Bill, OK. I think I get it. We're protecting against nuisance tripping due to heat build up over time at breaker terminals resulting from continuous loads/sources of current. I understand that you mean an inverter, as a continuous power source, needs to be "allowed" greater flexibility (125%) of current constraint in order to function when you mention having to "withstand" a certain size breaker. However, we're still missing the actual "overcurrent" protection part, no? Obviously there's Article 240. But that's still not setting a max OCPD size, right?...unless I am missing something. I won't blame you if you decide you have more important things to attend than educating me on the nuances of the NEC. I'm still learning and I do greatly appreciate your insight! Eric --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Date: 10/31/16 5:41 pm To: "'RE-wrenches'" Eric, Your reasoning sounds logical, but it is missing the point. Transformers have to be protected by overcurrent devices, similar to wire. Inverters are current limited devices so they only have to be able to withstand a certain size circuit breaker. The current from the inverter is considered continuous so most circuit breakers are designed to operate at 80% of their rating continuously (therefore the requirement to multiply inverter output current by 125%). Does that make any more sense? Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering 3949 Joslin Lane Vacaville, CA 95688 707-332-0761 (office and mobile) bill at brooksolar.com (email) www.brooksolar.com (web) From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com Sent: Monday, October 31, 2016 3:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? I realize this is potentially a stupid question, and one that is long overdue, but here goes: Why in 690(B) are we setting a minimum threshold on OCPD when we're protecting against over current? Shouldn't we be setting a maximum threshold...as is done in pretty much all other cases? The way I see it, we should take the array/inverter max output AC current and multiply by 125% to set our min ampacity on wire, and then calc down to find the breaker trade size that lands between the max AC output current and max AC output current times 125%. That way, we avoid nuisance tripping but achieve the max overcurrent protection possible. By following 690(B) we're actually decreasing OCP: Literally, 690(B) is stating that we can have a breaker 100x over the circuit rating, so long as it's not under the circuit rating times 1.25. To me this seems antilogical. Mr. Brooks? 690.9(B) Overcurrent Device Ratings. Overcurrent device ratings shall be not less than 125 percent of the maximum currents calculated in 690.8(A). 455.7(B)...The overcurrent protection determined from this section shall not exceed 125 percent of the phase converter nameplate single-phase input amperes. 450.4(A)...Such overcurrent device shall be rated or set at not more than 125 percent of the rated full-load input current of the autotransformer. 450.5(A)(2) Overcurrent Protection. An overcurrent sensing device shall be provided that will cause the main switch or commontrip overcurrent protection referred to in 450.5(A)(1) to open if the load on the autotransformer reaches or exceeds 125 percent of its continuous current per-phase or neutral rating. 450.5(B)(2)(b) Ampere Rating. The overcurrent protection shall be rated or set at a current not exceeding 125 percent of the autotransformer continuous per-phase current rating or 42 percent of the continuous-current rating of any seriesconnected devices in the autotransformer neutral connection. Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530) 559-5023 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 1 15:52:49 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 12:52:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? In-Reply-To: <20161101110103.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.cbc56b02fd.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> References: <035301d233d8$a773c3a0$f65b4ae0$@sbcglobal.net> <20161101110103.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.cbc56b02fd.mailapi@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <040301d23479$87722e60$96568b20$@sbcglobal.net> Eric, No worries on the education side. I’ve been educating for nearly 30 years in this field. I’m learning new stuff every day so I expect others to have the same commitment to learning. I’m glad to see that you do. One personal frustration with the listing label on inverters is that they did away with the “maximum overcurrent device” rating on the inverter (there is a maximum circuit breaker rating for inverters). This rating, often buried in the specifications of the installation instructions of the inverter, is the breaker that the inverter was tested with. An inverter with a one-amp continuous output current can be connected to a 20-A circuit breaker (if it has that rating). In fact you can connect up to 16 of those inverters on one 20-A breaker—we call that a microinverter branch circuit (not a code title). Similarly, we can take four 40-amp inverters and connect them in parallel on a 200-A breaker as long as the inverter has a 200-amp maximum overcurrent device rating. The safety standard tests for the maximum short circuit current that a specified circuit breaker can present to an inverter to see if the bonding path in the inverter can withstand the inrush and trip the breaker without causing a fire. That’s all the safety standard cares about. If you run a circuit breaker that is connected to an inverter at more than 80% of its rating, that’s just stupid because you knew how much current it could generate in the first place—it is defined in the ratings. If you run a circuit breaker connected to a transformer at more than 80% of its rating continuously, you not only violate the listing of the circuit breaker, you also violate the listing of the transformer. The only way to fix the transformer issue is to lower the load on the transformer. The inverter and the transformer have circuit breakers for very different reasons. The circuit breaker connected to an inverter output circuit is really only there to protect against a fault in the inverter or a fault in the conductor. It does not need to deal with “overcurrent” since the inverter has a defined output current. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 11:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? Bill, OK. I think I get it. We're protecting against nuisance tripping due to heat build up over time at breaker terminals resulting from continuous loads/sources of current. I understand that you mean an inverter, as a continuous power source, needs to be "allowed" greater flexibility (125%) of current constraint in order to function when you mention having to "withstand" a certain size breaker. However, we're still missing the actual "overcurrent" protection part, no? Obviously there's Article 240. But that's still not setting a max OCPD size, right?...unless I am missing something. I won't blame you if you decide you have more important things to attend than educating me on the nuances of the NEC. I'm still learning and I do greatly appreciate your insight! Eric --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Date: 10/31/16 5:41 pm To: "'RE-wrenches'" > Eric, Your reasoning sounds logical, but it is missing the point. Transformers have to be protected by overcurrent devices, similar to wire. Inverters are current limited devices so they only have to be able to withstand a certain size circuit breaker. The current from the inverter is considered continuous so most circuit breakers are designed to operate at 80% of their rating continuously (therefore the requirement to multiply inverter output current by 125%). Does that make any more sense? Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering 3949 Joslin Lane Vacaville, CA 95688 707-332-0761 (office and mobile) bill at brooksolar.com (email) www.brooksolar.com (web) From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com Sent: Monday, October 31, 2016 3:34 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection? I realize this is potentially a stupid question, and one that is long overdue, but here goes: Why in 690(B) are we setting a minimum threshold on OCPD when we're protecting against over current? Shouldn't we be setting a maximum threshold...as is done in pretty much all other cases? The way I see it, we should take the array/inverter max output AC current and multiply by 125% to set our min ampacity on wire, and then calc down to find the breaker trade size that lands between the max AC output current and max AC output current times 125%. That way, we avoid nuisance tripping but achieve the max overcurrent protection possible. By following 690(B) we're actually decreasing OCP: Literally, 690(B) is stating that we can have a breaker 100x over the circuit rating, so long as it's not under the circuit rating times 1.25. To me this seems antilogical. Mr. Brooks? 690.9(B) Overcurrent Device Ratings. Overcurrent device ratings shall be not less than 125 percent of the maximum currents calculated in 690.8(A). 455.7(B)...The overcurrent protection determined from this section shall not exceed 125 percent of the phase converter nameplate single-phase input amperes. 450.4(A)...Such overcurrent device shall be rated or set at not more than 125 percent of the rated full-load input current of the autotransformer. 450.5(A)(2) Overcurrent Protection. An overcurrent sensing device shall be provided that will cause the main switch or commontrip overcurrent protection referred to in 450.5(A)(1) to open if the load on the autotransformer reaches or exceeds 125 percent of its continuous current per-phase or neutral rating. 450.5(B)(2)(b) Ampere Rating. The overcurrent protection shall be rated or set at a current not exceeding 125 percent of the autotransformer continuous per-phase current rating or 42 percent of the continuous-current rating of any seriesconnected devices in the autotransformer neutral connection. Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530) 559-5023 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 10:09:10 2016 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 08:09:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Intermittent charge 4024 Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I recently assessed a 22 year old Trace 4024. During bulk charge mode, I noticed that the charge would go from about 18A down to 5-6A every 15-20 seconds, and then repeat the cycle. I observed this for about 5 minutes relatively consistently I also noticed the body of the 4024 was very hot, and I couldn't feel a fan moving air through it. I put a fan on it and blew air over the body of the inverter, trying to direct it through the machine. While I did that, I never observed it drop out again over about 5 minutes, so I'm assuming that there is an internal cooling fan that has gone out. It's been quite a while since I opened one of these up. Does anyone know what's involved in replacing a cooling fan on one of these? Is it worth it on a 22 year old inverter? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 10:57:59 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 07:57:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Intermittent charge 4024 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <475C631C-F50E-4FB3-B8CE-9724AD3304F2@gmail.com> Hi Mac No don't recommend replacing internal fans But I have installed external 120v muffin fans on the ends. Seal up the vents around the ends so it pulls air through. Hook the fans to the genny input. Quick and works well Jay > On Nov 3, 2016, at 7:09 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I recently assessed a 22 year old Trace 4024. During bulk charge mode, I noticed that the charge would go from about 18A down to 5-6A every 15-20 seconds, and then repeat the cycle. I observed this for about 5 minutes relatively consistently I also noticed the body of the 4024 was very hot, and I couldn't feel a fan moving air through it. > > I put a fan on it and blew air over the body of the inverter, trying to direct it through the machine. While I did that, I never observed it drop out again over about 5 minutes, so I'm assuming that there is an internal cooling fan that has gone out. > > It's been quite a while since I opened one of these up. Does anyone know what's involved in replacing a cooling fan on one of these? Is it worth it on a 22 year old inverter? > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 11:12:29 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 08:12:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW grid connect question Message-ID: <067B2291-1CEA-48F6-95A7-5F8480A88C4D@gmail.com> Hi all I've got a friend of a friend who is having trouble with his XW 5548 selling to the grid It appears that it'll sell up to around 2.2k, and that's it. There is 4 kw hydro going into a XW high voltage controller. Yes it has all correct dump and safety components so nothing is blowing up. My friend has 3 other exact same systems all,working fine. Setpoints are all set correctly and have been double triple checked and are the same as the others. I guess my question is if the grid voltage was high enough that the inverter was bumping up against max AC voltage, will the inverter regulate watts to stay at that voltage or shut off like a normal GT inverter? Or could there be another reason/s? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From bob at midnitesolar.com Thu Nov 3 14:27:58 2016 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:27:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Intermittent charge 4024 In-Reply-To: <475C631C-F50E-4FB3-B8CE-9724AD3304F2@gmail.com> References: <475C631C-F50E-4FB3-B8CE-9724AD3304F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <185b84df-8105-dee1-4719-f729ce1f0429@midnitesolar.com> You can replace the internal SW fans (if the fans themselves are the problem.) BUT the replacement fans must draw approximately the same current as the original fans because they are powered by a current source rather than voltage source. i.e. If you use a fan that draws less than the fan current, the voltage could rise too high. Some 12V fans don't have a problem running at say, 20+ volts DC BTW so might not be that big of a deal. boB On 11/3/2016 7:57 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Mac > > No don't recommend replacing internal fans > > But I have installed external 120v muffin fans on the ends. > Seal up the vents around the ends so it pulls air through. > Hook the fans to the genny input. > Quick and works well > > Jay > > On Nov 3, 2016, at 7:09 AM, Mac Lewis > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I recently assessed a 22 year old Trace 4024. During bulk charge >> mode, I noticed that the charge would go from about 18A down to 5-6A >> every 15-20 seconds, and then repeat the cycle. I observed this for >> about 5 minutes relatively consistently I also noticed the body of >> the 4024 was very hot, and I couldn't feel a fan moving air through it. >> >> I put a fan on it and blew air over the body of the inverter, trying >> to direct it through the machine. While I did that, I never observed >> it drop out again over about 5 minutes, so I'm assuming that there is >> an internal cooling fan that has gone out. >> >> It's been quite a while since I opened one of these up. Does anyone >> know what's involved in replacing a cooling fan on one of these? Is >> it worth it on a 22 year old inverter? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 07:24:04 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 06:24:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart Message-ID: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> All, We have a MATE3 on campus that resets each time you press a button to leave the main screen. For example, we will press the "charger" button followed by pressing the "graph" button, at this point the screen will stall. The other buttons won't work at this point and the MATE will shut off and restart. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Fri Nov 4 08:52:10 2016 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:52:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart In-Reply-To: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> References: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Probably needs the firmware update. In the meantime I would suggest unplugging the ethernet cable and plugging it back in that might help. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Solar Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 7:24:04 AM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart All, We have a MATE3 on campus that resets each time you press a button to leave the main screen. For example, we will press the "charger" button followed by pressing the "graph" button, at this point the screen will stall. The other buttons won't work at this point and the MATE will shut off and restart. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Nov 4 10:15:34 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 10:15:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Intermittent charge 4024 In-Reply-To: <185b84df-8105-dee1-4719-f729ce1f0429@midnitesolar.com> References: <475C631C-F50E-4FB3-B8CE-9724AD3304F2@gmail.com> <185b84df-8105-dee1-4719-f729ce1f0429@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <20161104141539.8123A11032@che.dreamhost.com> I know an electronics technician who has repaired a couple of Trace inverters for us for a very reasonable fee. Contact me off the list for his contact info. At 02:27 PM 11/3/2016, you wrote: >You can replace the internal SW fans (if the fans themselves are the problem.) > >BUT the replacement fans must draw approximately the same current as the >original fans because they are powered by a current source rather than voltage >source. i.e. If you use a fan that draws less >than the fan current, the voltage >could rise too high. Some 12V fans don't have a problem running at say, >20+ volts DC BTW so might not be that big of a deal. > >boB > > >On 11/3/2016 7:57 AM, Jay wrote: >>Hi Mac >> >>No don't recommend replacing internal fans >> >>But I have installed external 120v muffin fans on the ends. >>Seal up the vents around the ends so it pulls air through. >>Hook the fans to the genny input. >>Quick and works well >> >>Jay >> >>On Nov 3, 2016, at 7:09 AM, Mac Lewis >><maclewis1 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>Hello Wrenches, >>> >>>I recently assessed a 22 year old Trace >>>4024. During bulk charge mode, I noticed that >>>the charge would go from about 18A down to >>>5-6A every 15-20 seconds, and then repeat the >>>cycle. I observed this for about 5 minutes >>>relatively consistently I also noticed the >>>body of the 4024 was very hot, and I couldn't >>>feel a fan moving air through it. >>> >>>I put a fan on it and blew air over the body >>>of the inverter, trying to direct it through >>>the machine. While I did that, I never >>>observed it drop out again over about 5 >>>minutes, so I'm assuming that there is an >>>internal cooling fan that has gone out. >>> >>>It's been quite a while since I opened one of >>>these up. Does anyone know what's involved in >>>replacing a cooling fan on one of these? Is >>>it worth it on a 22 year old inverter? >>> >>>Thanks in advance >>> >>>-- >>> >>> >>> >>>Mac Lewis >>> >>>"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 11:50:49 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 08:50:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart In-Reply-To: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> References: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <244C9ECA-A779-4089-994C-B8AA77C03A37@gmail.com> Call OB for a new one. I’ve had a few go back for this reason. Once the start that, they don’t get better. Jay Peltz power > On Nov 4, 2016, at 4:24 AM, Solar wrote: > > All, > > We have a MATE3 on campus that resets each time you press a button to leave the main screen. For example, we will press the "charger" button followed by pressing the "graph" button, at this point the screen will stall. The other buttons won't work at this point and the MATE will shut off and restart. > > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Fri Nov 4 13:55:49 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:55:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart In-Reply-To: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> References: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jesse: You may have an intermittent Ethernet connection. Pressure on a button may move the Mate3 chassis in a subtle amount, but enough to disturb the connections to the device. I suggest you try a temporary, factory made or known good Ethernet cable. You might want to be very careful that you don't accidentally plug the hub cable into the internet port. I believe it is possible that you could damage the internet port by doing so. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 4:24 AM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart All, We have a MATE3 on campus that resets each time you press a button to leave the main screen. For example, we will press the "charger" button followed by pressing the "graph" button, at this point the screen will stall. The other buttons won't work at this point and the MATE will shut off and restart. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Nov 4 14:08:01 2016 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:08:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart In-Reply-To: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> References: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ebde725fb804aedb3c0e9a1ca52c89c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Mr. Dahl I believe a Firmware update will be required. Down load the latest Firmware from the OutBack Website onto an otherwise empty SD card. Insert the SD card in the Mate3 then power it up. If you press and hold the UP button it will force an update. After the update is complete it might be a good idea to clear the Internal Data Logs. Press Lock Enter the password 141 select Settings then System Scroll down to Clear Internal Data Log Then choose yes. This should get you up and running. If it does not help email me directly for further assistance. Take Care sir Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 4:24 AM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart All, We have a MATE3 on campus that resets each time you press a button to leave the main screen. For example, we will press the "charger" button followed by pressing the "graph" button, at this point the screen will stall. The other buttons won't work at this point and the MATE will shut off and restart. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dahlsolar at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 16:43:08 2016 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:43:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart In-Reply-To: <2ebde725fb804aedb3c0e9a1ca52c89c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <1D68395B-08A3-4BE3-AC04-8727E941E86B@gmail.com> <2ebde725fb804aedb3c0e9a1ca52c89c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: I will have the students perform the update next week. This MATE has been in service for 3 years and this is the first time we've had problems. Thanks! Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 4, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Lones Tuss wrote: > > Hello Mr. Dahl > I believe a Firmware update will be required. Down load the latest Firmware from the OutBack Website onto an otherwise empty SD card. Insert the SD card in the Mate3 then power it up. > > If you press and hold the UP button it will force an update. > After the update is complete it might be a good idea to clear the Internal Data Logs. > Press Lock > Enter the password 141 > select Settings then System > Scroll down to > Clear Internal Data Log > Then choose yes. > This should get you up and running. > If it does not help email me directly for further assistance. > > > > Take Care sir > > Lones Tuss > Applications Engineer > OutBack Power Technologies > 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 > 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell > www.outbackpower.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 4:24 AM > To: Wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] MATE3 restart > > All, > > We have a MATE3 on campus that resets each time you press a button to leave the main screen. For example, we will press the "charger" button followed by pressing the "graph" button, at this point the screen will stall. The other buttons won't work at this point and the MATE will shut off and restart. > > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 20:57:19 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 15:57:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.8 Message-ID: Wrenches We are getting some questions from PRMD some questions relating to 690.8 here is what we have 3 modules, 260 watts at 9 amps ISC each module is a single string which goes into a MNPV6 disco/combiner/disconnect combined to a 30 amp breaker, it is being replaced with a 40 amp per 690.8(A) 1 leaves there and goes to a 32 amp disconnect in our device. here is where it gets interesting 690.8 (A) requires the 40 amp breaker but reading down to 690.8 (B) 1 we need to up-size to 50 amps (no 45 amp is non available) We also have added the 63 amp GFI in the disco we have also moved up from # 10 wire to # 8 wire as a result All this seams over kill for three modules, there are 2 exceptions but PRMD do not feel they are relative. Is the Midnite solar disco considered an assembly with the bus bars inside if we install the breakers Any ideas would be helpful Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Nov 10 09:48:04 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:48:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161110144812.ABA28101E7@che.dreamhost.com> When using acronyms,please use entire phrase at least once, such as "Permit and Resource Management Department (PRMD)." Those of us who don't live in Sonoma County (or even California) might not know what it means. This one readily showed up with an Internet search. Some of the acronyms used on the list aren't so easy to find. Thank you, Drake At 08:57 PM 11/9/2016, you wrote: >Wrenches >We are getting some questions from PRMD some >questions relating to 690.8 here is what we have >3 modules, 260 watts at 9 amps ISC each module is a single string which >goes into a MNPV6 disco/combiner/disconnect >combined to a 30 amp breaker, it is being >replaced with a 40 amp per 690.8(A) 1 >leaves there and goes to a 32 amp disconnect in our device. >here is where it gets interesting >690.8 (A) requires the 40 amp breaker but reading down to 690.8 (B) 1 we >need to up-size to 50 amps (no 45 amp is non available) >We also have added the 63 amp GFI in the disco >we have also moved up from # 10 wire to # 8 wire as a result >All this seams over kill for three modules, >there are 2 exceptions but PRMD do >not feel they are relative. >Is the Midnite solar disco considered an >assembly with the bus bars inside if we install the breakers >Any ideas would be helpful >Jerry > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ray at solarray.com Thu Nov 10 11:31:35 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:31:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76631354-b30b-ad0b-5032-2b916508c827@solarray.com> The exception under 690.8(B)(1) definitely applies. All of Midnite' breakers and boxes are rated for 100% continuous operation. I believe, this does not apply to their touch safe fuse assemblies, however. Also FYI, you should be able to use the 90 deg C rating for complying with 110.14 (C) at least for the terminals in Midnite's combiner. (This is according to my conversations with Midnite) Also, it seems that you might be exceeding the max fuse rating of the modules. You might want to check that. Why not have each series string on its own 15 amp breaker? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/9/2016 6:57 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > We are getting some questions from PRMD some questions relating to > 690.8 here is what we have > 3 modules, 260 watts at 9 amps ISC each module is a single string which > goes into a MNPV6 disco/combiner/disconnect > combined to a 30 amp breaker, it is being replaced with a 40 amp per > 690.8(A) 1 > leaves there and goes to a 32 amp disconnect in our device. > here is where it gets interesting > 690.8 (A) requires the 40 amp breaker but reading down to 690.8 (B) 1 we > need to up-size to 50 amps (no 45 amp is non available) > We also have added the 63 amp GFI in the disco > we have also moved up from # 10 wire to # 8 wire as a result > All this seams over kill for three modules, there are 2 exceptions but > PRMD do > not feel they are relative. > Is the Midnite solar disco considered an assembly with the bus bars > inside if we install the breakers > Any ideas would be helpful > Jerry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 12:46:17 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 07:46:17 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To be clear to all we are protecting each string coming into the combiner box with a DC rated 15 amp breaker On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > We are getting some questions from PRMD some questions relating to 690.8 > here is what we have > 3 modules, 260 watts at 9 amps ISC each module is a single string which > goes into a MNPV6 disco/combiner/disconnect > combined to a 30 amp breaker, it is being replaced with a 40 amp per > 690.8(A) 1 > leaves there and goes to a 32 amp disconnect in our device. > here is where it gets interesting > 690.8 (A) requires the 40 amp breaker but reading down to 690.8 (B) 1 we > need to up-size to 50 amps (no 45 amp is non available) > We also have added the 63 amp GFI in the disco > we have also moved up from # 10 wire to # 8 wire as a result > All this seams over kill for three modules, there are 2 exceptions but > PRMD do > not feel they are relative. > Is the Midnite solar disco considered an assembly with the bus bars inside > if we install the breakers > Any ideas would be helpful > Jerry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Nov 10 13:14:05 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 13:14:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault Message-ID: Hi All, Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc faulting: -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the inverter. -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located (indoors) -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator transfer switch -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly. -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, sometimes less. -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by two different people. -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) -We have replaced all home runs. -We have replaced both inverters. -Arc faults are still happening. -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? Thanks for your help, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Nov 10 13:18:10 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 13:18:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is at least one company (nameless at this point, but not SMA) that has been providing replacements for swapping out faulty arc fault detectors in their inverters. Could it be possible you have a bad detector? Daryl > Hi All, > > Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc > faulting: > > -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. > -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the > inverter. > -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located > (indoors) > -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. > -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. > -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator > transfer switch > -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed > in April, but the generator fires up weekly. > > -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one > at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. > -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, > sometimes less. > > -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by > two different people. > -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) > -We have replaced all home runs. > -We have replaced both inverters. > -Arc faults are still happening. > -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. > > I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? > Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? > > Thanks for your help, > Dave > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Nov 10 13:37:14 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 13:37:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Daryl, That is what I thought at first. Very rare, but I suppose not impossible that I would have two inverters with bad arc fault detectors. But since we are still getting arc faults after replacing the inverters, I am thinking that it must be something else. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:18 PM, wrote: > There is at least one company (nameless at this point, but not SMA) that > has been providing replacements for swapping out faulty arc fault > detectors in their inverters. Could it be possible you have a bad > detector? > > Daryl > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc > > faulting: > > > > -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. > > -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the > > inverter. > > -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located > > (indoors) > > -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. > > -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. > > -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator > > transfer switch > > -There has been only one power outage there since the system was > installed > > in April, but the generator fires up weekly. > > > > -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one > > at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. > > -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, > > sometimes less. > > > > -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by > > two different people. > > -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) > > -We have replaced all home runs. > > -We have replaced both inverters. > > -Arc faults are still happening. > > -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. > > > > I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? > > Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? > > > > Thanks for your help, > > Dave > > > > *--* > > > > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > > *Project Engineer* > > > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > > www.taitem.com > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Thu Nov 10 13:37:37 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 13:37:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7866371505cff36cfa01f82f0f2cde33.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Dave, We have seen false arc-faults on numerous SMA installs. I have at least two where we have spent longer troubleshooting than installing the array (basically removed and re-installed all components). SMA is very little help and ultimately encourages us to deactivate the arc-fault feature, against code requirements. In one instance we were able to talk SMA into upgrading a -22 unit to their new -US unit. That hasn't been installed long but no issues yet. Our arrays with older Tigo optimizers and newer SMAs are entirely hopeless. Tigo has just advised us to use -22 SMAs only. If the arc fault is intermittent don't be afraid to conclude the problem is the inverter, not your install. Good luck. Matt On Thu, November 10, 2016 1:14 pm, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > > Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc > faulting: > > > -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. > -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the > inverter. -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are > located (indoors) > -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. > -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. > -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator > transfer switch -There has been only one power outage there since the > system was installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly. > > -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one > at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. -The events > have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, sometimes less. > > -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by > two different people. -We have replaced the underground wires (and they > looked just fine) -We have replaced all home runs. > -We have replaced both inverters. > -Arc faults are still happening. > -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. > > > I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? > Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? > > > Thanks for your help, > Dave > > > *--* > > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From william at millersolar.com Thu Nov 10 14:34:55 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:34:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost Message-ID: Colleagues: I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. Thank you in advance for any input. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Nov 10 16:20:43 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:20:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161110212051.59477108CD@che.dreamhost.com> Is your array on a large metal roof, or is it where intense radio signals could be getting picked up by your racking? Either of these conditions could potentially be your problem. At 01:37 PM 11/10/2016, you wrote: >Daryl, >That is what I thought at first. Very rare, but >I suppose not impossible that I >would have two inverters with bad arc fault detectors. But since we are still >getting arc faults after replacing the >inverters, I am thinking that it must be >something else. > >Cheers, >Dave > > >-- > >Dave Tedeyan >Project Engineer > >Taitem Engineering, PC >109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >www.taitem.com > >On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:18 PM, ><penobscotsolar at midmaine.com> wrote: >There is at least one company (nameless at this point, but not SMA) that >has been providing replacements for swapping out faulty arc fault >detectors in their inverters. Could it be possible you have a bad >detector? > >Daryl > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc > > faulting: > > > > -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. > > -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the > > inverter. > > -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located > > (indoors) > > -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. > > -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. > > -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator > > transfer switch > > -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed > > in April, but the generator fires up weekly. > > > > -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one > > at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. > > -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, > > sometimes less. > > > > -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by > > two different people. > > -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) > > -We have replaced all home runs. > > -We have replaced both inverters. > > -Arc faults are still happening. > > -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. > > > > I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? > > Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? > > > > Thanks for your help, > > Dave > > > > *--* > > > > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > > *Project Engineer* > > > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > > www.taitem.com > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bzp at brick.net Thu Nov 10 16:32:29 2016 From: bzp at brick.net (frank -bz products) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 15:32:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: <20161110212051.59477108CD@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20161110212051.59477108CD@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <9a137490-ee44-a1b8-1c04-e53cf221571c@brick.net> I have found that single point grounding in large complex systems can solve a lot strange problems. Just a thought. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net On 11/10/2016 3:20 PM, Drake wrote: > Is your array on a large metal roof, or is it where intense radio > signals could be getting picked up by your racking? Either of these > conditions could potentially be your problem. > > At 01:37 PM 11/10/2016, you wrote: >> Daryl, >> That is what I thought at first. Very rare, but I suppose not >> impossible that I >> would have two inverters with bad arc fault detectors. But since we >> are still >> getting arc faults after replacing the inverters, I am thinking that >> it must be >> something else. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> *-- >> >> Dave Tedeyan** >> Project Engineer >> * >> *Taitem Engineering, PC >> *109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> www.taitem.com >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:18 PM, > > wrote: >> >> There is at least one company (nameless at this point, but not >> SMA) that >> has been providing replacements for swapping out faulty arc fault >> detectors in their inverters. Could it be possible you have a bad >> detector? >> >> Daryl >> >> >> >> > Hi All, >> > >> > Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters >> keep arc >> > faulting: >> > >> > -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. >> > -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the >> > inverter. >> > -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are >> located >> > (indoors) >> > -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. >> > -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. >> > -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the >> generator >> > transfer switch >> > -There has been only one power outage there since the system >> was installed >> > in April, but the generator fires up weekly. >> > >> > -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. >> Sometimes only one >> > at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. >> > -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes >> more, >> > sometimes less. >> > >> > -We have already checked every single connection in the system >> twice, by >> > two different people. >> > -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) >> > -We have replaced all home runs. >> > -We have replaced both inverters. >> > -Arc faults are still happening. >> > -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. >> > >> > I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? >> > Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? >> > >> > Thanks for your help, >> > Dave >> > >> > *--* >> > >> > >> > *Dave Tedeyan* >> > *Project Engineer* >> > >> > *Taitem Engineering, PC* >> > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> > www.taitem.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Nov 10 21:25:44 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 19:25:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: > Colleagues: > > I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge > controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got > upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. > > About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without > power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was > restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. > > A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over > the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would > only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. > > I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that > the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so > that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 > was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other > settings were also found with very random values. > > This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least > must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified > as to how this could have happened. > > I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I > have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has > experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my > knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share > any findings with the group. > > Thank you in advance for any input. > > William Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dan at Foxfire-Energy.com Thu Nov 10 21:45:47 2016 From: Dan at Foxfire-Energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 21:45:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kind of sounds like the ever elusive yellow spotted random button pusher.. Or, one of my customers kids (he says), pulled all the CAT5 cables off the hub and didn't put them back in the right order (master and slave got transposed). or it might've been that pesky Russian cyber espionage unit.. trying to hack into the electoral voting system.. again. Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com > On Nov 10, 2016, at 2:34 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. > > About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. > > A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. > > I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. > > This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. > > I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. > > Thank you in advance for any input. > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 21:51:15 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:51:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave. We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue. Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the problem and it can be either AC or DC. Jerry On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc > faulting: > > -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. > -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the > inverter. > -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located > (indoors) > -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. > -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. > -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator > transfer switch > -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed > in April, but the generator fires up weekly. > > -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one > at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. > -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, > sometimes less. > > -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by > two different people. > -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) > -We have replaced all home runs. > -We have replaced both inverters. > -Arc faults are still happening. > -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. > > I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? > Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? > > Thanks for your help, > Dave > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Nov 11 07:32:23 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 07:32:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby. As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point are in the same area. There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is connected to, including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming from the array to the inverters. The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding electrode system. Jerry, The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to check firmware. As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned, although there may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for heating, but they say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also the generator... Thanks for your recommendations. -Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Dave. > We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when they > are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, last > I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn off > the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if you > do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system > with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that > brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have > had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue. > Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and > as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the > problem and it can be either AC or DC. > Jerry > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc >> faulting: >> >> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. >> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the >> inverter. >> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located >> (indoors) >> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. >> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. >> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator >> transfer switch >> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was >> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly. >> >> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one >> at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. >> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, >> sometimes less. >> >> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by >> two different people. >> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) >> -We have replaced all home runs. >> -We have replaced both inverters. >> -Arc faults are still happening. >> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. >> >> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? >> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? >> >> Thanks for your help, >> Dave >> >> *--* >> >> >> *Dave Tedeyan* >> *Project Engineer* >> >> *Taitem Engineering, PC* >> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> www.taitem.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Nov 11 08:24:05 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 08:24:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dane, It was a few years ago, but I believe we had an arc fault with the same type of array setup (although I'm wondering now if they were -12s - I'm pretty sure they were -22s). After checking everything twice, we ran 1 string at a time and still got the arc fault. After badgering tech support for too long, they had us run a couple of perfunctory tests and finally agreed to replace them. Problems gone. I believe this is an undocumented hardware out firmware problem with some of these. I assume you've been dealing with sma on this, just thought I'd mention this... Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Nov 11, 2016 7:33 AM, "Dave Tedeyan" wrote: > This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby. > > As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point > are in the same area. > There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is > connected to, > including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming > from the array to the inverters. > The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding > electrode system. > > Jerry, > The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to > check firmware. > As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned, > although there > may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for > heating, but they > say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also > the generator... > > Thanks for your recommendations. > -Dave > > > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Dave. >> We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when >> they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, >> last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn >> off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if >> you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system >> with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that >> brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have >> had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue. >> Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and >> as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the >> problem and it can be either AC or DC. >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc >>> faulting: >>> >>> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. >>> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the >>> inverter. >>> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located >>> (indoors) >>> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. >>> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. >>> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the >>> generator transfer switch >>> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was >>> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly. >>> >>> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only >>> one at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. >>> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, >>> sometimes less. >>> >>> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by >>> two different people. >>> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) >>> -We have replaced all home runs. >>> -We have replaced both inverters. >>> -Arc faults are still happening. >>> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. >>> >>> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? >>> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? >>> >>> Thanks for your help, >>> Dave >>> >>> *--* >>> >>> >>> *Dave Tedeyan* >>> *Project Engineer* >>> >>> *Taitem Engineering, PC* >>> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >>> www.taitem.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Nov 11 08:25:02 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 08:25:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, I meant "Dave"... Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Nov 11, 2016 7:33 AM, "Dave Tedeyan" wrote: > This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby. > > As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point > are in the same area. > There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is > connected to, > including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming > from the array to the inverters. > The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding > electrode system. > > Jerry, > The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to > check firmware. > As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned, > although there > may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for > heating, but they > say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also > the generator... > > Thanks for your recommendations. > -Dave > > > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Dave. >> We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when >> they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, >> last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn >> off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if >> you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system >> with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that >> brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have >> had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue. >> Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and >> as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the >> problem and it can be either AC or DC. >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc >>> faulting: >>> >>> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. >>> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the >>> inverter. >>> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located >>> (indoors) >>> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. >>> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. >>> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the >>> generator transfer switch >>> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was >>> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly. >>> >>> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only >>> one at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. >>> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, >>> sometimes less. >>> >>> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by >>> two different people. >>> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) >>> -We have replaced all home runs. >>> -We have replaced both inverters. >>> -Arc faults are still happening. >>> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. >>> >>> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? >>> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? >>> >>> Thanks for your help, >>> Dave >>> >>> *--* >>> >>> >>> *Dave Tedeyan* >>> *Project Engineer* >>> >>> *Taitem Engineering, PC* >>> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >>> www.taitem.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Nov 11 10:15:11 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:15:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161111151520.E774F10CA5@che.dreamhost.com> Electrical noise coming in from the utility side can also cause an arc fault code. At 07:32 AM 11/11/2016, you wrote: >This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby. > >As for grounding, The array and the shed with >the interconnection point are in the same area. >There are a couple ground rods there, which >everything on the AC side is connected to, >including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is >just a #10 ground coming from the array to the inverters. >The house is a couple hundred feet away and has >its own grounding electrode system. > >Jerry, >The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), >but it is a good idea to check firmware. >As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types >of things you mentioned, although there >may be a well pump. They also do have a large >water storage tank for heating, but they >say that they have not needed to use it yet this >year. Then there is also the generator... > >Thanks for your recommendations. >-Dave > > > >-- > >Dave Tedeyan >Project Engineer > >Taitem Engineering, PC >109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >www.taitem.com > >On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer ><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: >Dave. >We have many TL-22 in the field and they will >detect faults even when they are normal >contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is >the latest, last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it >may have a patch in there, you can turn off the >feature for testing only and see if you melt >something down but if you do please be on site >as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC >system with contacts, welders, compressors, >anything that has a dry contacts that brakes >under load, this is another place I would look. >Every time we have had a code out it was real >weather from something normal or a wire issue. >Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field >from the 3's to the 24's and as much as I dread >getting a call with this issue I can usually >find the problem and it can be either AC or DC. >Jerry > >On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan ><dtedeyan at taitem.com> wrote: >Hi All, > >Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a >couple inverters keep arc faulting: > >-There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. >-3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the inverter. >-Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the >inverters are located (indoors) >-Simple grid connected system, no batteries. >-There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. >-We interconnect by using piercing taps on the >line side of the generator transfer switch >-There has been only one power outage there >since the system was installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly. > >-The arc faults have been happening on both >inverters. Sometimes only one at a time, >sometimes both will go within a day of each other. >-The events have been approximately one a month, >but sometimes more, sometimes less. > >-We have already checked every single connection >in the system twice, by two different people. >-We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) >-We have replaced all home runs. >-We have replaced both inverters. >-Arc faults are still happening. >-Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. > >I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? >Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? > >Thanks for your help, >Dave > >-- > >Dave Tedeyan >Project Engineer > >Taitem Engineering, PC >109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >www.taitem.com > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Nov 10 23:26:00 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:26:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> Ray: I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the password. It does look like some serious glitch. William > On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Colleagues: >> >> I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. >> >> About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. >> >> A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. >> >> I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. >> >> This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. >> >> I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. >> >> Thank you in advance for any input. >> >> William Miller >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Nov 11 11:45:46 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:45:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> References: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <50113c6f-0e9a-b28e-5dc1-7670e35864ee@solarray.com> I think the other poster's idea that the cables could have been switched is possible. It could explain the Master getting switched. I'm certainly not saying a complete internal glitch wasn't it either. We've all seen our share of those as well. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/10/2016 9:26 PM, William Miller wrote: > Ray: > > I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the > password. It does look like some serious glitch. > > William > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > >> It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram >> stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> Colleagues: >>> >>> I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge >>> controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got >>> upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. >>> >>> About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without >>> power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was >>> restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. >>> >>> A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me >>> over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The >>> system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. >>> >>> I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that >>> the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much >>> so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, >>> inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any >>> system. Other settings were also found with very random values. >>> >>> This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at >>> least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely >>> mystified as to how this could have happened. >>> >>> I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I >>> have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else >>> has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my >>> knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share >>> any findings with the group. >>> >>> Thank you in advance for any input. >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce.g at ruralinzone.net Fri Nov 11 19:57:50 2016 From: bruce.g at ruralinzone.net (Bruce Geddes) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 13:57:50 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> References: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <009101d23c7f$d31caa30$7955fe90$@ruralinzone.net> Hi William, I have had a similar experience here in New Zealand on a FP2 fitted with VFXR3024E inverters. Factory wired with a Mate3. Ran ok for around 2 months then random errors with “FX Firmware incompatible” then “FX Firmware OK” until eventually the slave inverter shut down with a message on the mate of FXRBL which means Boot Load, going back to very basic bootup mode. It could only be corrected by doing a firmware upgrade which would not work via the Mate and Hub, had to plug Mate directly into inverter. Reloaded system config from SD card file and all ok. Now, after around 2 weeks, Mate display went blank except for border graphics. Supplier, suspecting a possibly faulty mate has sent a replacement and, when trying to load system configuration the file which I resaved on leaving last time has been scrambled. Still waiting for a resolution but I suspect it is something to do with the VFXR’s or possibly the Mate. Software bug or something. Solution might be to replace VFXR’s with VFX’s but we will have to see what Outback come back with. Meantime I have a very irate customer with ½ of the system operating (Master inverter only). System is nearly 3 hours travel one way so popping over to reset it when it is likely to randomly shut down again is not an option! Still waiting to hear from Outback if they will cover this with warranty. Bruce Geddes Freedom Energy Ltd From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Friday, 11 November 2016 5:26 p.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost Ray: I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the password. It does look like some serious glitch. William On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. Thank you in advance for any input. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6201 / Virus Database: 4656/13091 - Release Date: 09/26/16 Internal Virus Database is out of date. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Sat Nov 12 08:08:53 2016 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 13:08:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> References: , <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Very strange that all the programming is scrambled. Recently we had a FXR system which had been working fine for nearly six months come up with an incompatibility error with the slave inverter even though the firmware was the most recent and the same for both inverters. After several failed attempts to re-upgrade the inverter firmware, we took a shot at upgrading the Mate 3 firmware which did work. We then again tried the inverters and it worked. System is now working again (for now) and the programming is all still valid. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost Ray: I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the password. It does look like some serious glitch. William On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. Thank you in advance for any input. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Nov 12 11:32:59 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 09:32:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: References: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <318b85b5-cf05-a141-e50b-059ebb872562@solarray.com> I second uprading all firmware on all devices. I had a recent FXR install that was dropping one of the inverters (and its leg) whenever the system tried to sell. Latest firmware cured the issues. The industry is moving from us being electricians to becoming computer techs. Retirement looks better each day. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/12/2016 6:08 AM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > > Very strange that all the programming is scrambled. > > > Recently we had a FXR system which had been working fine for nearly > six months come up with an incompatibility error with the slave > inverter even though the firmware was the most recent and the same for > both inverters. After several failed attempts to re-upgrade the > inverter firmware, we took a shot at upgrading the Mate 3 firmware > which did work. We then again tried the inverters and it worked. > System is now working again (for now) and the programming is all still > valid. > > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you > are not the intended recipient and have received this message in > error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me > immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer > system. Thank you. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of William Miller > *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost > Ray: > > I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the > password. It does look like some serious glitch. > > William > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > >> It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram >> stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> Colleagues: >>> >>> I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge >>> controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got >>> upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. >>> >>> About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without >>> power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was >>> restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. >>> >>> A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me >>> over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The >>> system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. >>> >>> I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that >>> the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much >>> so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, >>> inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any >>> system. Other settings were also found with very random values. >>> >>> This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at >>> least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely >>> mystified as to how this could have happened. >>> >>> I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I >>> have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else >>> has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my >>> knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share >>> any findings with the group. >>> >>> Thank you in advance for any input. >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Nov 11 23:03:14 2016 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:03:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> References: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <019201d23c99$b4579ff0$1d06dfd0$@solarwindworks.com> Hi William, We have had a very similar experience with the Mate3, prior to their new programming guidelines that are now being shipped with the Mate3, when all we had was the 180 page manual. What went wrong if my memory serves here is we did go through the menu programming our needs for the system, then went into the Wizard to do a save. Not a good idea as this dumped all our programming, including the stacking setting, allowing the slave to parallel the Master, oops. Not good with the client looking on as the house goes dark and red lights are flashing. Luckily the back fed Master shut down without smoke coming out. The rest of the menu was scrambled too. Always going to Save Config now, as the final word and programming in the latest revision too. Don’t know if this helps, hope so. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 8:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost Ray: I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the password. It does look like some serious glitch. William On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. Thank you in advance for any input. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Nov 12 12:17:11 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 09:17:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: <318b85b5-cf05-a141-e50b-059ebb872562@solarray.com> References: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> <318b85b5-cf05-a141-e50b-059ebb872562@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray: Upgrading firmware on inverters and Mates requires either a board swap for inverters or a trip to the factory for a standard Mate. Only the Mate3 can be field upgraded. Then, if you have mixed inverter firmware, there can be unintended consequences. For example, we upgraded a fourth inverter because of a failure. We were told to make it the master. When we did, the gen would disconnect after 20 minutes. We changed it back to a slave and problem resolved. In our society, the price for added features is added frustration. William > On Nov 12, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I second uprading all firmware on all devices. I had a recent FXR install that was dropping one of the inverters (and its leg) whenever the system tried to sell. Latest firmware cured the issues. > The industry is moving from us being electricians to becoming computer techs. Retirement looks better each day. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 11/12/2016 6:08 AM, Wayne Irwin wrote: >> Very strange that all the programming is scrambled. >> >> Recently we had a FXR system which had been working fine for nearly six months come up with an incompatibility error with the slave inverter even though the firmware was the most recent and the same for both inverters. After several failed attempts to re-upgrade the inverter firmware, we took a shot at upgrading the Mate 3 firmware which did work. We then again tried the inverters and it worked. System is now working again (for now) and the programming is all still valid. >> >> >> >> Wayne Irwin, >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> http://PureEnergySolar.com >> http://SolarChargingStation.net >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller >> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:26 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost >> >> Ray: >> >> I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the password. It does look like some serious glitch. >> >> William >> >> On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >>> It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: >>>> Colleagues: >>>> >>>> I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. >>>> >>>> About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. >>>> >>>> A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. >>>> >>>> I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. >>>> >>>> This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. >>>> >>>> I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. >>>> >>>> Thank you in advance for any input. >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Sat Nov 12 16:42:45 2016 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 21:42:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: References: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> <318b85b5-cf05-a141-e50b-059ebb872562@solarray.com>, Message-ID: When they work the new programming options/features are really cool and if I may be so bold (or nerdy) to say Fun. However, when they don't work and instead shut down the system...@&$! Absolutely Frustrating. Somehow I feel we are the constant guinea pigs. I hope the firmware update glitches are remedied soon. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 12:17:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost Ray: Upgrading firmware on inverters and Mates requires either a board swap for inverters or a trip to the factory for a standard Mate. Only the Mate3 can be field upgraded. Then, if you have mixed inverter firmware, there can be unintended consequences. For example, we upgraded a fourth inverter because of a failure. We were told to make it the master. When we did, the gen would disconnect after 20 minutes. We changed it back to a slave and problem resolved. In our society, the price for added features is added frustration. William On Nov 12, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Ray Walters > wrote: I second uprading all firmware on all devices. I had a recent FXR install that was dropping one of the inverters (and its leg) whenever the system tried to sell. Latest firmware cured the issues. The industry is moving from us being electricians to becoming computer techs. Retirement looks better each day. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/12/2016 6:08 AM, Wayne Irwin wrote: Very strange that all the programming is scrambled. Recently we had a FXR system which had been working fine for nearly six months come up with an incompatibility error with the slave inverter even though the firmware was the most recent and the same for both inverters. After several failed attempts to re-upgrade the inverter firmware, we took a shot at upgrading the Mate 3 firmware which did work. We then again tried the inverters and it worked. System is now working again (for now) and the programming is all still valid. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost Ray: I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the password. It does look like some serious glitch. William On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. Thank you in advance for any input. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Sun Nov 13 20:36:32 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:36:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: <20161111151520.E774F10CA5@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20161111151520.E774F10CA5@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Howie, Yes, we have actually already replaced both inverters on site and the issues are still happening. At this point I doubt that we could have gotten 4 units with faulty arc fault sensors... Drake, I am beginning to think that it may be some noise from the utility. Would you know of a way to test for this? eGague unit maybe? Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > Electrical noise coming in from the utility side can also cause an arc > fault code. > > At 07:32 AM 11/11/2016, you wrote: > > This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby. > > As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point > are in the same area. > There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is > connected to, > including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming > from the array to the inverters. > The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding > electrode system. > > Jerry, > The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to > check firmware. > As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned, > although there > may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for > heating, but they > say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also > the generator... > > Thanks for your recommendations. > -Dave > > > > > > *-- Dave Tedeyan* > Project Engineer > > > *Taitem Engineering, PC *109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > Dave. > We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when they > are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, last > I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn off > the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if you > do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system > with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that > brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have > had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue. > Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and > as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the > problem and it can be either AC or DC. > Jerry > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc > faulting: > > -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. > -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the > inverter. > -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located > (indoors) > -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. > -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. > -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator > transfer switch > -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed > in April, but the generator fires up weekly. > > -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one > at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. > -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, > sometimes less. > > -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by > two different people. > -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) > -We have replaced all home runs. > -We have replaced both inverters. > -Arc faults are still happening. > -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. > > I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? > Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? > > Thanks for your help, > Dave > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan > Project Engineer > > Taitem Engineering, PC > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > > www.taitem.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 13 23:54:40 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:54:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: <20161111151520.E774F10CA5@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Dave: E-gauge will not test for line noise. You need a power quality monitor. The cheapest one and the only one I have used is the Fluke VR1710. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan *Sent:* Sunday, November 13, 2016 5:37 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault Howie, Yes, we have actually already replaced both inverters on site and the issues are still happening. At this point I doubt that we could have gotten 4 units with faulty arc fault sensors... Drake, I am beginning to think that it may be some noise from the utility. Would you know of a way to test for this? eGague unit maybe? Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: Electrical noise coming in from the utility side can also cause an arc fault code. At 07:32 AM 11/11/2016, you wrote: This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby. As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point are in the same area. There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is connected to, including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming from the array to the inverters. The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding electrode system. Jerry, The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to check firmware. As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned, although there may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for heating, but they say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also the generator... Thanks for your recommendations. -Dave *--Dave Tedeyan* Project Engineer *Taitem Engineering, PC*109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Dave. We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue. Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the problem and it can be either AC or DC. Jerry On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc faulting: -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the inverter. -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located (indoors) -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator transfer switch -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly. -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, sometimes less. -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by two different people. -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) -We have replaced all home runs. -We have replaced both inverters. -Arc faults are still happening. -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? Thanks for your help, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan Project Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 05:15:11 2016 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:15:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost Message-ID: Greetings All, I discovered an issue with a grid-tied 5 OutBack Radian GS8048A system 3 days ago (Friday). I went to the client's site late in the day and found the system had experienced an issue about 9 hours earlier. The system had not "sold" any energy to the grid all day and the MATE3 system display/controller home screen looked very strange. Only some of the keys on the MATE3 were functioning and their associated screens also looked strange. The Event History of the MATE3 logged an "Inverter Firmware Revisions are Different" and "Inverter Firmware Revisions are the same" earlier that morning. The 2 Events were logged about 3 minutes apart from each other. I took digital pictures of all the MATE3 screens that were effected and of the Event History log. I opened all of the AC circuits to/from the inverters, opened all of the DC circuits to the inverters, and disconnected the Hub network cable and Ethernet cable from the rear of the MATE3 and also removed the SD card. After about 10 minutes I reconnected the network and ethernet cables, reinstalled the SD card, and restarted the system. The system started up just fine, but the Sun had already set for the day so it was not "selling" any energy. All of the MATE3 screens now looked normal. I was surprised to find the 2 firmware related Events had disappeared from the Events History log. I checked the firmware versions for all of the OutBack components in this system and all are the latest versions. The system settings looked to be unaffected. I called OutBack Tech Support to discuss and troubleshoot further. I was told it was a known issue related to out of date firmware. I double checked all of the installed firmware versions and the OutBack tech agreed they are all up to date. After the tech put me "on hold" and spoke with others at OutBack he told me this issue can be caused by the Events History not completely erasing old Events even though the Events History only has 128 lines which write over once they reach 128 logged Events. This system has a persistent "IN AC Freq Too High" error issue that populates the Event History hundreds of time each day, so this MATE3 is a likely candidate for this issue. Even though the MATE3 uses flash memory its memory seems to act somewhat like a hard disk drive that needs to be defragmented. The tech had me erase/delate the Events History log. I was told that if it happens again I should unplug the network cable from the MATE3 to reset it and erase/delete the Events History log. After this I reviewed some of the settings and configuration items with the tech still on the phone to see if any had been effected. We did find one unexplained issue; "existing configuration" and "new configuration" in the Configuration menu were the same. Meaning they both showed the same default settings/values. Although the actual settings and values viewed in other menus showed they were actually set as I had last programed them. He opened a case for further review at OutBack and I have emailed them my pictures and notes. Also of note; This system is connected to OutBack's OpticsRE and I have it set to send me email notifications for Events on the system. Between the time the issue occurred and when I reset the system OpticsRE emailed me many messages with the Event "Configuration changes are made locally via MATE3/AXS PORT". No one was working on the system or using the MATE3, so this seems strange. All I can think is that the system was still seeing whatever normally triggers the "IN AC Freq Too High" errors, but they were being logged as "Configuration changes are made locally via MATE3/AXS PORT" during this period of time when the system/MATE3 was experiencing this issue. I have also put this in my notes for OutBack. I have attached 2 pictures; 1 of what the MATE3 home screen looked like and 1 of what the Event History looked like. There were also a number of other screens effected. I am happy to share my other pictures if anyone would like to see them. Please feel free to contact me. I am interested to hear if these MATE3 screens look like what others in this thread have seen. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Event History Log.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 490677 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Home Screen.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 476940 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 05:40:53 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:40:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: <20161111151520.E774F10CA5@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: You can use a Fluke 435 series, it will reveal any harmonics and record the energy levels for each harmonic. It has a scope feature. You can rent one pretty cheaply and record 24 hours of data. I can send you a sample report from mine if you want. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 9:36 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Howie, > Yes, we have actually already replaced both inverters on site and the > issues are still happening. At this point I doubt that we could have > gotten 4 units with faulty arc fault sensors... > > Drake, > I am beginning to think that it may be some noise from the utility. > Would you know of a way to test for this? eGague unit maybe? > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Drake redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> Electrical noise coming in from the utility side can also cause an arc >> fault code. >> >> At 07:32 AM 11/11/2016, you wrote: >> >> This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers >> nearby. >> >> As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point >> are in the same area. >> There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is >> connected to, >> including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming >> from the array to the inverters. >> The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding >> electrode system. >> >> Jerry, >> The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to >> check firmware. >> As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned, >> although there >> may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for >> heating, but they >> say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also >> the generator... >> >> Thanks for your recommendations. >> -Dave >> >> >> >> >> >> *-- Dave Tedeyan* >> Project Engineer >> >> >> *Taitem Engineering, PC *109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> www.taitem.com >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer > > wrote: >> Dave. >> We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when >> they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, >> last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn >> off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if >> you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system >> with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that >> brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have >> had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue. >> Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and >> as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the >> problem and it can be either AC or DC. >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc >> faulting: >> >> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. >> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the >> inverter. >> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located >> (indoors) >> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. >> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. >> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator >> transfer switch >> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was >> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly. >> >> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one >> at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. >> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, >> sometimes less. >> >> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by >> two different people. >> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) >> -We have replaced all home runs. >> -We have replaced both inverters. >> -Arc faults are still happening. >> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. >> >> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? >> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? >> >> Thanks for your help, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> Project Engineer >> >> Taitem Engineering, PC >> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> >> www.taitem.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> [image: Avast logo] >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 06:07:34 2016 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:07:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault Message-ID: Greetings Dave, Have you considered possibly installing a hybrid type transient voltage surge suppressor (TVSS), to include filters to remove high frequency EMI/RFI? Or possible a straight line filter device? If this nuisance arc fault issue is still occurring and it may be related to an AC issue you may be able to get some technical help and advice from an engineer at one of the TVSS manufacturers such as Total Protection Solutions, Richmond, VA 800.647.1911 or Surge Suppression Incorporated, Destin, FL 888.987.8877. I would also recommend reaching out for an application engineer in the SPD division at Eaton. Eaton Technical Resource Center 800.809.2772. SSI also has a very experienced field troubleshooting technician they send all around the country to help contractors with difficult electrical issues... Of course that would probably cost $1000-$2000 per day. I avoid using piercing taps and connectors. I prefer to use service entrance tap boxes, insulated multi port connectors, or line side rated power distribution blocks. I cannot help but wonder if there may be an actual arc event occurring at one or more of the piercing taps which is somehow picked up by the DC AFCI. In commissioning this system it would be a good idea to use a non-contact IR thermometer and/or thermal imaging camera/scope to check the piercing taps for excessive heating while the conductors are energized and carrying peak currents. I hope you are successful in resolving this issue soon. I will continue to follow the thread. Hopefully we can all learn something from this. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Nov 14 11:53:11 2016 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:53:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: References: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> <318b85b5-cf05-a141-e50b-059ebb872562@solarray.com> Message-ID: <325374c483944a40999054feb08849de@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello All The legacy Mate(2) and legacy FX inverters did require the units to be sent to OutBack to be updated. The Mate3 and the FXRA inverters can all be updated in the field. The newest revisions of software are available on the OutBack website. http://outbackpower.com/catalogs-collaterals/category/td-firmware-updates Down load the new firmware on an SD Card insert it into the Mate3 Press the Lock Button enter 141 as the password. Select Firmware Update Then choose the device you wish to update. When updating the inverters it is advised to put the system in Bypass as the inverters will shut down when an update is performed. Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 9:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost Ray: Upgrading firmware on inverters and Mates requires either a board swap for inverters or a trip to the factory for a standard Mate. Only the Mate3 can be field upgraded. Then, if you have mixed inverter firmware, there can be unintended consequences. For example, we upgraded a fourth inverter because of a failure. We were told to make it the master. When we did, the gen would disconnect after 20 minutes. We changed it back to a slave and problem resolved. In our society, the price for added features is added frustration. William On Nov 12, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Ray Walters > wrote: I second uprading all firmware on all devices. I had a recent FXR install that was dropping one of the inverters (and its leg) whenever the system tried to sell. Latest firmware cured the issues. The industry is moving from us being electricians to becoming computer techs. Retirement looks better each day. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/12/2016 6:08 AM, Wayne Irwin wrote: Very strange that all the programming is scrambled. Recently we had a FXR system which had been working fine for nearly six months come up with an incompatibility error with the slave inverter even though the firmware was the most recent and the same for both inverters. After several failed attempts to re-upgrade the inverter firmware, we took a shot at upgrading the Mate 3 firmware which did work. We then again tried the inverters and it worked. System is now working again (for now) and the programming is all still valid. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost Ray: I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the password. It does look like some serious glitch. William On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. Thank you in advance for any input. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Nov 14 12:34:17 2016 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 12:34:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ring Connectors Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, I'm doing an upgrade to an Outback VFX series off-grid system with the flexware boxes. What type/brand of ring connectors and crimpers do you all use for the DC breakers with the post terminals? Thanks, Will -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Nov 14 12:56:52 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 10:56:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ring Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will, 1/4" ring by whatever size wire you choose. Del City is a good source - www.delcity.net. #153145 is 1/4"/#10AWG; #254145 is same for #8 and #255145 for #6. Standard indent crimper for non-insulated terminals, not the automotive type. Mine is a Klein. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 11/14/2016 10:34 AM, Will White wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > > I'm doing an upgrade to an Outback VFX series off-grid system with the > flexware boxes. What type/brand of ring connectors and crimpers do > you all use for the DC breakers with the post terminals? > > Thanks, > Will > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Nov 14 15:24:24 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 15:24:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ring Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161114202433.9716710A7A@che.dreamhost.com> Panduit ring tongue terminals and a Panduit full cycle ratcheting crimp tool. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: "Will White" Sent: ‎11/‎14/‎2016 12:34 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ring Connectors Hey Wrenches, I'm doing an upgrade to an Outback VFX series off-grid system with the flexware boxes. What type/brand of ring connectors and crimpers do you all use for the DC breakers with the post terminals? Thanks, Will -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Nov 14 16:16:42 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 14:16:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ring Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's the lug you would use for the inverter and batteries https://www.delcity.net/store/Straight-Tinned-Copper-Lugs/p_810763.h_796015.t_1 It doesn't say here, but on the bag I got, it specifically is listed for fine strand cables too. I have 3 crimpers that I use: one like Allan's for the large cable (2/0 and 4/0) , then a smaller, easier to handle one for #2 to #8. For #10 and smaller, I use a Klein crimper with the indenter. Image result for klein crimper I've had failures and repaired other people's problems with the hex crimpers. In all cases, I recommend a crimper that has a *V* on one side and an indenting pin that pushes into the V. I've taken apart factory cables from Outback, Trace, Midnite, etc, and they all use the V crimper style, not the hex type. https://www.delcity.net/store/Heavy!Duty-Terminal-Crimping-Tool/p_10379.h_45483.t_1 https://www.delcity.net/store/Heavy!Duty-Hammer-Cable-Crimper/p_10383.h_54606.t_1 https://www.delcity.net/store/V!Crimp-Heavy!Duty-Crimping-Tool/p_800107.h_800109.t_1 All of these make good professional crimps. I've tried several other crimpers that did not work as well. Hex crimps can rip through heat shrink, while some ratcheting oval crimpers let the wire pull out after, etc..... With the indent, it will always hold the wire, even with different types of wire and different lugs. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/14/2016 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Will, > 1/4" ring by whatever size wire you choose. Del City is a good source > - www.delcity.net. #153145 is 1/4"/#10AWG; #254145 is same for #8 and > #255145 for #6. > Standard indent crimper for non-insulated terminals, not the > automotive type. Mine is a Klein. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > On 11/14/2016 10:34 AM, Will White wrote: >> Hey Wrenches, >> >> I'm doing an upgrade to an Outback VFX series off-grid system with >> the flexware boxes. What type/brand of ring connectors and crimpers >> do you all use for the DC breakers with the post terminals? >> >> Thanks, >> Will >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: membjnjkofobkgem.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5034 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Nov 14 16:27:33 2016 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:27:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ring Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1479158853.58344712@email.finestplanet.com> this might be unnecessary/ old school, but after i crimp i solder too (oxidation happens). todd On Monday, November 14, 2016 1:16pm, "Ray Walters" said: Here's the lug you would use for the inverter and batteries [ https://www.delcity.net/store/Straight-Tinned-Copper-Lugs/p_810763.h_796015.t_1 ]( https://www.delcity.net/store/Straight-Tinned-Copper-Lugs/p_810763.h_796015.t_1 ) It doesn't say here, but on the bag I got, it specifically is listed for fine strand cables too. I have 3 crimpers that I use: one like Allan's for the large cable (2/0 and 4/0) , then a smaller, easier to handle one for #2 to #8. For #10 and smaller, I use a Klein crimper with the indenter. I've had failures and repaired other people's problems with the hex crimpers. In all cases, I recommend a crimper that has a V on one side and an indenting pin that pushes into the V. I've taken apart factory cables from Outback, Trace, Midnite, etc, and they all use the V crimper style, not the hex type. [ https://www.delcity.net/store/Heavy!Duty-Terminal-Crimping-Tool/p_10379.h_45483.t_1 ]( https://www.delcity.net/store/Heavy!Duty-Terminal-Crimping-Tool/p_10379.h_45483.t_1 ) [ https://www.delcity.net/store/Heavy!Duty-Hammer-Cable-Crimper/p_10383.h_54606.t_1 ]( https://www.delcity.net/store/Heavy!Duty-Hammer-Cable-Crimper/p_10383.h_54606.t_1 ) [ https://www.delcity.net/store/V!Crimp-Heavy!Duty-Crimping-Tool/p_800107.h_800109.t_1 ]( https://www.delcity.net/store/V!Crimp-Heavy!Duty-Crimping-Tool/p_800107.h_800109.t_1 ) All of these make good professional crimps. I've tried several other crimpers that did not work as well. Hex crimps can rip through heat shrink, while some ratcheting oval crimpers let the wire pull out after, etc..... With the indent, it will always hold the wire, even with different types of wire and different lugs. R.Ray WaltersCTO, Solarray, IncNabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master ElectricianSolar Design Engineer303 505-8760 On 11/14/2016 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:Will, 1/4" ring by whatever size wire you choose. Del City is a good source - [ www.delcity.net ]( http://www.delcity.net ). #153145 is 1/4"/#10AWG; #254145 is same for #8 and #255145 for #6. Standard indent crimper for non-insulated terminals, not the automotive type. Mine is a Klein. Allan Allan Sindelar [ allan at sindelarsolar.com ]( mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com ) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 11/14/2016 10:34 AM, Will White wrote: Hey Wrenches, I'm doing an upgrade to an Outback VFX series off-grid system with the flexware boxes. What type/brand of ring connectors and crimpers do you all use for the DC breakers with the post terminals? Thanks, Will _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )Change listserver email address & settings:[ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org )List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html )List rules & etiquette:[ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm )Check out or update participant bios:[ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )Change listserver email address & settings:[ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org )List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html )List rules & etiquette:[ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm )Check out or update participant bios:[ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Nov 14 17:03:48 2016 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 12:03:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Advanced Energy MM 5 inverter Message-ID: <013f01d23ec2$fb0c23a0$f1246ae0$@com> Hola Wrenches, I'm in search of a spec sheet and manual for a 2002 vintage Advanced Energy Multi-Mode 5 kW inverter. Looked on-line to no avail. Please send to me off-line if you have these docs. Mahalo, marco provision_highres_solar_logo2 with C-26351 Marco Mangelsdorf, President 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile www.provision-solar.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5935 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Mon Nov 14 17:38:10 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 14:38:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Advanced Energy MM 5 inverter In-Reply-To: <013f01d23ec2$fb0c23a0$f1246ae0$@com> References: <013f01d23ec2$fb0c23a0$f1246ae0$@com> Message-ID: <1f7aa6833f9cfa9245d116c516222a32@mail.gmail.com> Hola Marco, Advanced Energy was purchased by Beacon Power way back when, so you might contact them to see if they have a manual. If you Google “Beacon Power M5 inverter” you can find a spec sheet, but I didn’t see the manual anywhere. Brian Brian Teitelbaum Applications Engineer AEE Solar, Inc. Redway, CA Tel: (805) 242-7856 Toll Free 1-800-777-6609 ext 7856 bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf *Sent:* Monday, November 14, 2016 2:04 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Advanced Energy MM 5 inverter Hola Wrenches, I’m in search of a spec sheet and manual for a 2002 vintage Advanced Energy Multi-Mode 5 kW inverter. Looked on-line to no avail. Please send to me off-line if you have these docs. Mahalo, marco [image: provision_highres_solar_logo2 with C-26351] Marco Mangelsdorf, President 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile www.provision-solar.com ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5935 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 6766 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Nov 14 18:12:19 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 18:12:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost In-Reply-To: <325374c483944a40999054feb08849de@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <8C0B335F-C113-4BCB-B1DB-B27D6D7BD8F6@millersolar.com> <318b85b5-cf05-a141-e50b-059ebb872562@solarray.com> <325374c483944a40999054feb08849de@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: Lones, Ok, so my question is if we save the original user settings to one SD card and then format a separate SD card with the new firmware and install. Once the new firmware is installed can we put the original SD card in and upload all of our user settings. Or do we have to manually input all the settings? Also do you have a spreadsheet of the installer settings we can download as is found at the end of the Owners manual just in case we need to manually put the settings back in for recording purposes? Thanks, Christopher On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Lones Tuss wrote: > Hello All > > The legacy Mate(2) and legacy FX inverters did require the units to be > sent to OutBack to be updated. > > The Mate3 and the FXRA inverters can all be updated in the field. > > The newest revisions of software are available on the OutBack website. > > http://outbackpower.com/catalogs-collaterals/category/td-firmware-updates > > > > Down load the new firmware on an SD Card insert it into the Mate3 > > Press the Lock Button enter 141 as the password. > > Select Firmware Update > > Then choose the device you wish to update. > > > > When updating the inverters it is advised to put the system in Bypass as > the inverters will shut down when an update is performed. > > > > > > Lones Tuss > > Applications Engineer > > OutBack Power Technologies > > 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 > > 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell > > www.outbackpower.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Saturday, November 12, 2016 9:17 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback > Programming Ghost > > > > Ray: > > > > Upgrading firmware on inverters and Mates requires either a board swap for > inverters or a trip to the factory for a standard Mate. Only the Mate3 can > be field upgraded. > > > > Then, if you have mixed inverter firmware, there can be unintended > consequences. For example, we upgraded a fourth inverter because of a > failure. We were told to make it the master. When we did, the gen would > disconnect after 20 minutes. We changed it back to a slave and problem > resolved. > > > > In our society, the price for added features is added frustration. > > > > William > > > On Nov 12, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I second uprading all firmware on all devices. I had a recent FXR install > that was dropping one of the inverters (and its leg) whenever the system > tried to sell. Latest firmware cured the issues. > The industry is moving from us being electricians to becoming computer > techs. Retirement looks better each day. > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/12/2016 6:08 AM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > > Very strange that all the programming is scrambled. > > > > Recently we had a FXR system which had been working fine for nearly six > months come up with an incompatibility error with the slave inverter even > though the firmware was the most recent and the same for both inverters. > After several failed attempts to re-upgrade the inverter firmware, we took > a shot at upgrading the Mate 3 firmware which did work. We then again tried > the inverters and it worked. System is now working again (for now) and the > programming is all still valid. > > > > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of William Miller > > *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost > > > > Ray: > > > > I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the > password. It does look like some serious glitch. > > > > William > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff > themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > > > I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge > controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got > upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. > > > > About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. > A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not > hear about the situation for several days. > > > > A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the > telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run > if the inverter output breakers were all off. > > > > I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the > system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even > the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a > Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also > found with very random values. > > > > This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least > must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to > how this could have happened. > > > > I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have > not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has > experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on > this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with > the group. > > > > Thank you in advance for any input. > > > > William Miller > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 01:00:40 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 20:00:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault Message-ID: DaveDid you make your MC Cables, are there any jumpers used, l have seen crimped terminals cause faults and over time will overheat and fail open. Just a thought.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Matthew Sirum Date: 11/14/16 1:07 AM (GMT-10:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault Greetings Dave, Have you considered possibly installing a hybrid type transient voltage surge suppressor (TVSS), to include filters to remove high frequency EMI/RFI?  Or possible a straight line filter device?  If this nuisance arc fault issue is still occurring and it may be related to an AC issue you may be able to get some technical help and advice from an engineer at one of the TVSS manufacturers such as Total Protection Solutions, Richmond, VA 800.647.1911 or Surge Suppression Incorporated, Destin, FL 888.987.8877.  I would also recommend reaching out for an application engineer in the SPD division at Eaton. Eaton Technical Resource Center 800.809.2772.  SSI also has a very experienced field troubleshooting technician they send all around the country to help contractors with difficult electrical issues... Of course that would probably cost $1000-$2000 per day. I avoid using piercing taps and connectors.  I prefer to use service entrance tap boxes, insulated multi port connectors, or line side rated power distribution blocks.  I cannot help but wonder if there may be an actual arc event occurring at one or more of the piercing taps which is somehow picked up by the DC AFCI.  In commissioning this system it would be a good idea to use a non-contact IR thermometer and/or thermal imaging camera/scope to check the piercing taps for excessive heating while the conductors are energized and carrying peak currents. I hope you are successful in resolving this issue soon.  I will continue to follow the thread.  Hopefully we can all learn something from this. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227  USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Nov 15 10:40:48 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 07:40:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, It is particularly interesting that you have two inverters with intermittent arc faults. I’ve been following this thread, and agree that looking for noise on the AC side makes sense. Definitely update firmware too! That said, I thought I’d share a recent arc-fault story to this list. We had a very persistent arc fault occur about a year ago. We replaced the inverter, checked all DC-side wiring over and over, and could not find anything. The arc fault intermittently persisted. The client had a big fountain pump so we thought maybe that was the culprit. After a couple of months of troubleshooting we disabled arc fault detection and everything ran fine for about a year or so. Then, the client called us up and decided to expand his system. We added a few panels to the roof and rewired all the DC strings. During this process one of our installers found a melted MC4 connector: https://goo.gl/photos/SR2ApXmoPcRcLZQu8 So, it turns out that we had a real arc fault after all! We had checked the MC4 connections over a year ago and did not find this connector assembly issue – apparently the terminal wasn’t fully seated into the connector. In all fairness, it would not be easy to see whether the connector was seated properly if the arcing wasn’t bad enough to show signs of wear. We are giving our crews regular safety talks and training on all sorts of splices and proper MC4 assembly methods to avoid arc-faults and loose connection issues. It takes a lot of persistence. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:14 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault Hi All, Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc faulting: -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the inverter. -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located (indoors) -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator transfer switch -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly. -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, sometimes less. -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by two different people. -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) -We have replaced all home runs. -We have replaced both inverters. -Arc faults are still happening. -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? Thanks for your help, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 21:27:28 2016 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 18:27:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Advanced Energy MM 5 inverter In-Reply-To: <1f7aa6833f9cfa9245d116c516222a32@mail.gmail.com> References: <013f01d23ec2$fb0c23a0$f1246ae0$@com> <1f7aa6833f9cfa9245d116c516222a32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Here's the manual. Maybe it's good that I have not started to purge the 28k files in my data folder. Brad On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > Hola Marco, > > > > Advanced Energy was purchased by Beacon Power way back when, so you might > contact them to see if they have a manual. If you Google “Beacon Power M5 > inverter” you can find a spec sheet, but I didn’t see the manual anywhere. > > > > Brian > > > > > > Brian Teitelbaum > > Applications Engineer > > AEE Solar, Inc. > > Redway, CA > > Tel: (805) 242-7856 > > Toll Free 1-800-777-6609 ext 7856 > > bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com > > www.aeesolar.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf > *Sent:* Monday, November 14, 2016 2:04 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Advanced Energy MM 5 inverter > > > > Hola Wrenches, > > > > I’m in search of a spec sheet and manual for a 2002 vintage Advanced > Energy Multi-Mode 5 kW inverter. > > > > Looked on-line to no avail. > > > > Please send to me off-line if you have these docs. > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > > > [image: provision_highres_solar_logo2 with C-26351] > > Marco Mangelsdorf, President > 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 > Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 > (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile > www.provision-solar.com > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 6766 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5935 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: M5 Installation Manual 2801167 RevG.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1826232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Wed Nov 16 06:05:42 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 04:05:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ring Connectors Message-ID: <20161116040542.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.a95f722330.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Nov 16 16:40:15 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:40:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Satcon Inverter Service Message-ID: Anyone know who does Satcon inverter repair service in Florida? Our local University’s 2MW field is acting up. ​Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanestephenj at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 17:00:39 2016 From: kanestephenj at gmail.com (Stephen K) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:00:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Satcon Inverter Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, We support a number of Satcons here in the Denver area and utilize paid for technical support via SIC (http://www.sicusallc.com/) which is a reconstituted group of folks who formerly worked at Satcon. Bill Holmes (408.456.6779 and 905.630.7918) is one our main go-to techs for parts and troubleshooting assistance. Hope that helps. *Stephen Kane* *Co-Owner | Commercial Service and O&M * *NABCEP Certified in Solar PV Installation* *303.447.0300 x308* *stephen.kane at namastesolar.com* 4571 Broadway Street | Boulder, Colorado 80304 3330 Larimer Street, Suite 1A | Denver, Colorado 80205 On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Anyone know who does Satcon inverter repair service in Florida? Our local > University’s 2MW field is acting up. > > ​Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group​ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 21:13:58 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:13:58 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Satcon Inverter Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason They are pretty easy and the new satcon can help out and has parts, l fix them all the time, with tech support it might be something you could do. Jerry Jerry On Nov 16, 2016 11:40 AM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Anyone know who does Satcon inverter repair service in Florida? Our local > University’s 2MW field is acting up. > > ​Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group​ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Nov 17 02:21:25 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:21:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmware was Outback Programming Ghost Message-ID: <29bffa11ed5e1b86d9887caacefeedf0@mail.gmail.com> Lones: Thank you for the reply outlining the firmware update functionality of the various devices. Unfortunately I think you missed the more important point: Outback inverters with Mate3 monitors and possibly Optics systems are experiencing programming glitches that are shutting systems down. By my count, four installers have reported similar problems on this forum in response to my query. It is one thing if an Optics system disconnects on a regular basis, or there are consistent gaps in data reporting, both of which is happening, but it is a much bigger issue that these systems are shutting down. This violates the core performance mission of a battery inverter system. When I experienced this recent failure, I was actually in your facility for a training. I requested tech support and Jorge, I believe the head of Tech Support, came in the training room and I showed him the problem. This is not a few charge parameters adjusting up or down a few points, this is inverters 1, 2 and 3 all becoming 1/2 Phase masters. This shut off power to my customer and requires a drive to the site to repair. I am disappointed no one at Outback has contacted me about this serious problem. My confidence in the Outback Radian/Mate3/Optics systems is shaken. I just received a contract for a 16K Radian system and I can’t place the order until I get some idea of how this will be resolved. Please review the Wrenches posts on the subject. Please also contact Jorge and see what he knows or can figure out about this issue. There is a large group of us here waiting to learn what will be done about this problem. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lones Tuss *Sent:* Monday, November 14, 2016 8:53 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost Hello All The legacy Mate(2) and legacy FX inverters did require the units to be sent to OutBack to be updated. The Mate3 and the FXRA inverters can all be updated in the field. The newest revisions of software are available on the OutBack website. http://outbackpower.com/catalogs-collaterals/category/td-firmware-updates Down load the new firmware on an SD Card insert it into the Mate3 Press the Lock Button enter 141 as the password. Select Firmware Update Then choose the device you wish to update. When updating the inverters it is advised to put the system in Bypass as the inverters will shut down when an update is performed. Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Saturday, November 12, 2016 9:17 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Firmware, Firmware, Firmaware was Outback Programming Ghost Ray: Upgrading firmware on inverters and Mates requires either a board swap for inverters or a trip to the factory for a standard Mate. Only the Mate3 can be field upgraded. Then, if you have mixed inverter firmware, there can be unintended consequences. For example, we upgraded a fourth inverter because of a failure. We were told to make it the master. When we did, the gen would disconnect after 20 minutes. We changed it back to a slave and problem resolved. In our society, the price for added features is added frustration. William On Nov 12, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote: I second uprading all firmware on all devices. I had a recent FXR install that was dropping one of the inverters (and its leg) whenever the system tried to sell. Latest firmware cured the issues. The industry is moving from us being electricians to becoming computer techs. Retirement looks better each day. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/12/2016 6:08 AM, Wayne Irwin wrote: Very strange that all the programming is scrambled. Recently we had a FXR system which had been working fine for nearly six months come up with an incompatibility error with the slave inverter even though the firmware was the most recent and the same for both inverters. After several failed attempts to re-upgrade the inverter firmware, we took a shot at upgrading the Mate 3 firmware which did work. We then again tried the inverters and it worked. System is now working again (for now) and the programming is all still valid. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ------------------------------ *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost Ray: I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the password. It does look like some serious glitch. William On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters wrote: It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff themselves. Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers. The system has been on line for about 6 years. It got upgraded about 7 months ago with 2 Mate3s. About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power. A maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored. I did not hear about the situation for several days. A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the telephone to see if we could restart the system. The system would only run if the inverter output breakers were all off. I examined the system via Optics. I was very surprised to see that the system programming was absolutely scrambled. This was so much so that even the stacking settings were wrong. For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, which we all know will crash any system. Other settings were also found with very random values. This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must have been right prior to the outage. I am completely mystified as to how this could have happened. I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously. I have not heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this or anything similar. I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group. Thank you in advance for any input. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Nov 17 14:10:40 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:10:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update Message-ID: Friends: Here is what I have learned so far: 1. Not everyone at Outback was aware that we had almost certainly eliminated user meddling as a possible cause. I assured them again that the equipment is behind a locked door. Because they did not know this they were not aware that the system apparently reprogrammed itself. They now know this. I apologize for insinuating Outback was not taking this seriously, they just did not communicate internally. 2. Everyone I have spoken with at Outback is concerned and acting in a positive, professional manner to get this sorted out. 3. I can't say anything for certain regarding the cause. The net result is that the inverter programming was scrambled, but I won't hazard a guess as to how this happened. In case anyone misunderstands, I am a fan of the Outback equipment line and of the people that work at Outback. I just have concerns about the software. As equipment becomes more software intensive and more connected, even the best hardware can be rendered inoperative by software problems. Several of you have contacted me off-line asking to be kept updated. I will continue to do so. It is most efficient for me to do so on-line. If the information is not of interest to most of you I can easily take this off-line. I trust Michael can give me guidance on that point. William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Thu Nov 17 14:44:31 2016 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:44:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, This is a learning experience for all of us. I for one really appreciate you posting the information here. Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:11 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update Friends: Here is what I have learned so far: 1. Not everyone at Outback was aware that we had almost certainly eliminated user meddling as a possible cause. I assured them again that the equipment is behind a locked door. Because they did not know this they were not aware that the system apparently reprogrammed itself. They now know this. I apologize for insinuating Outback was not taking this seriously, they just did not communicate internally. 2. Everyone I have spoken with at Outback is concerned and acting in a positive, professional manner to get this sorted out. 3. I can't say anything for certain regarding the cause. The net result is that the inverter programming was scrambled, but I won't hazard a guess as to how this happened. In case anyone misunderstands, I am a fan of the Outback equipment line and of the people that work at Outback. I just have concerns about the software. As equipment becomes more software intensive and more connected, even the best hardware can be rendered inoperative by software problems. Several of you have contacted me off-line asking to be kept updated. I will continue to do so. It is most efficient for me to do so on-line. If the information is not of interest to most of you I can easily take this off-line. I trust Michael can give me guidance on that point. William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Nov 17 15:06:22 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:06:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Agreed. Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Nov 17, 2016 2:45 PM, "Brian Teitelbaum" wrote: > William, > > > > This is a learning experience for all of us. I for one really appreciate > you posting the information here. > > > > Brian > > AEE Solar > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:11 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update > > > > Friends: > > > > Here is what I have learned so far: > > > > 1. Not everyone at Outback was aware that we had almost certainly > eliminated user meddling as a possible cause. I assured them again that > the equipment is behind a locked door. Because they did not know this they > were not aware that the system apparently reprogrammed itself. They now > know this. I apologize for insinuating Outback was not taking this > seriously, they just did not communicate internally. > > > > 2. Everyone I have spoken with at Outback is concerned and acting in a > positive, professional manner to get this sorted out. > > > > 3. I can't say anything for certain regarding the cause. The net result > is that the inverter programming was scrambled, but I won't hazard a guess > as to how this happened. > > > > In case anyone misunderstands, I am a fan of the Outback equipment line > and of the people that work at Outback. I just have concerns about the > software. As equipment becomes more software intensive and more connected, > even the best hardware can be rendered inoperative by software problems. > > > > Several of you have contacted me off-line asking to be kept updated. I > will continue to do so. It is most efficient for me to do so on-line. If > the information is not of interest to most of you I can easily take this > off-line. I trust Michael can give me guidance on that point. > > > > William > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:03:43 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 12:03:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William and others who have had this kind of issue, Is it yet confirmed if all of these systems are connected via OPticsRE ? Thx Jay Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 17, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > > William, > > This is a learning experience for all of us. I for one really appreciate you posting the information here. > > Brian > AEE Solar > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:11 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update > > Friends: > > Here is what I have learned so far: > > 1. Not everyone at Outback was aware that we had almost certainly eliminated user meddling as a possible cause. I assured them again that the equipment is behind a locked door. Because they did not know this they were not aware that the system apparently reprogrammed itself. They now know this. I apologize for insinuating Outback was not taking this seriously, they just did not communicate internally. > > 2. Everyone I have spoken with at Outback is concerned and acting in a positive, professional manner to get this sorted out. > > 3. I can't say anything for certain regarding the cause. The net result is that the inverter programming was scrambled, but I won't hazard a guess as to how this happened. > > In case anyone misunderstands, I am a fan of the Outback equipment line and of the people that work at Outback. I just have concerns about the software. As equipment becomes more software intensive and more connected, even the best hardware can be rendered inoperative by software problems. > > Several of you have contacted me off-line asking to be kept updated. I will continue to do so. It is most efficient for me to do so on-line. If the information is not of interest to most of you I can easily take this off-line. I trust Michael can give me guidance on that point. > > William > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Nov 17 16:27:54 2016 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:27:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445251.58497.qm@smtp120.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> As most of you know, I'm zealous about stopping off-topic posting. But this is a subject of interest to numerous members, I have no doubt. Definitely not off-topic. William Miller wrote at 11:10 AM 11/17/2016: >Several of you have contacted me off-line asking to be kept updated. I will continue to do so. It is most efficient for me to do so on-line. If the information is not of interest to most of you I can easily take this off-line. I trust Michael can give me guidance on that point. From truscitti at taitem.com Fri Nov 18 11:40:48 2016 From: truscitti at taitem.com (Tom Ruscitti) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 11:40:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FNDC calibration Message-ID: Just a heads up about a recurring issue we've had with FNDC calibration. The issue is not about the software voltage calibration of inverters and charge controllers, or the correct point to measure. It's about FNDC calibration. We check FNDC reported voltage vs. actual during commissioning. When we measure voltage at the bus where the FNDC twisted pairs are landed, the FNDC disagrees. We've had this with 4 or 5 units now, including the warranty replacement just received for a previous project. The new one also reads about 0.5V high. Over time we've checked against 3 different voltmeters, so while we don't have a calibration standard I don't think our measurements are the issue. I'm hoping not to be humbled by an obvious measurement error. We calibrate the CC and inverter voltages to actual, so this ends up in a disagreement with the FNDC, which can't be field calibrated. It's confusing for monitoring and for training off-grid customers on how to monitor their state of charge using voltages as well as calculated SOC. Functionally, I believe the AGS uses FNDC voltage rather than inverter; if so it also affects voltage based auto gen starts as well unless the settings are tweaked to compensate for the error. Are others seeing this as well? - Tom -- Tom Ruscitti Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Mobile: (607) 220-7022 www.taitem.com From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Nov 18 13:40:05 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 13:40:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you all for your suggestions, support and shared experiences. I have no resolution at the moment, but will plan to update everyone with what I find out. Moving forward, I am planning to look into noise on the AC side, as well as continue to look for patterns in terms of days, time, and conditions for the faults. I know that the inverters have fairly recent firmware (2.62.30R) but SMA is soon to push new firmware to their -22 inverters. I already have the update and can install it next time I am there. It will be interesting to see if new firmware will have any effect. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:40 AM, August Goers wrote: > Dave, > > > > It is particularly interesting that you have two inverters with > intermittent arc faults. I’ve been following this thread, and agree that > looking for noise on the AC side makes sense. Definitely update firmware > too! > > > > That said, I thought I’d share a recent arc-fault story to this list. We > had a very persistent arc fault occur about a year ago. We replaced the > inverter, checked all DC-side wiring over and over, and could not find > anything. The arc fault intermittently persisted. The client had a big > fountain pump so we thought maybe that was the culprit. After a couple of > months of troubleshooting we disabled arc fault detection and everything > ran fine for about a year or so. Then, the client called us up and decided > to expand his system. We added a few panels to the roof and rewired all the > DC strings. During this process one of our installers found a melted MC4 > connector: > > > > https://goo.gl/photos/SR2ApXmoPcRcLZQu8 > > > > So, it turns out that we had a real arc fault after all! We had checked > the MC4 connections over a year ago and did not find this connector > assembly issue – apparently the terminal wasn’t fully seated into the > connector. In all fairness, it would not be easy to see whether the > connector was seated properly if the arcing wasn’t bad enough to show signs > of wear. We are giving our crews regular safety talks and training on all > sorts of splices and proper MC4 assembly methods to avoid arc-faults and > loose connection issues. It takes a lot of persistence. > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan > *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:14 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault > > > > Hi All, > > > > Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc > faulting: > > > > -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded. > > -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the > inverter. > > -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located > (indoors) > > -Simple grid connected system, no batteries. > > -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed. > > -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator > transfer switch > > -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed > in April, but the generator fires up weekly. > > > > -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one > at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. > > -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, > sometimes less. > > > > -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by > two different people. > > -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine) > > -We have replaced all home runs. > > -We have replaced both inverters. > > -Arc faults are still happening. > > -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week. > > > > I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator? > > Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar? > > > > Thanks for your help, > > Dave > > > > *--* > > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > > *Project Engineer* > > > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > > www.taitem.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From truscitti at taitem.com Fri Nov 18 14:07:53 2016 From: truscitti at taitem.com (Tom Ruscitti) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 14:07:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FNDC calibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just an update that Outback has responded very quickly on the FNDC issue. Will post any new info here when we figure it out. - Tom From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Nov 22 11:21:34 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 11:21:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools Message-ID: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> Hello, Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Nov 23 02:01:32 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:01:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Versatile remote monitoring component Message-ID: Wrenches, I support the PV for several Access Point sites for a local wireless internet provider, a nonprofit that serves rural and remote areas around Santa Fe. Through working with them I learned of a product that others here may find useful at remote sites. It's a Web Based Remote Monitor and Control System. Info is at https://www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=TPDINMONITORWEB&eq=&Tp=&o1=0. >From the web page: The PowerSENS is a versatile tool which enables the equipment designer and installer to remotely monitor his equipment and site. The unit can be accessed via the network (web and SNMP) to remotely monitor up to 4 voltages (up to 80V DC), 4 currents (up to 16A), 2 temperatures and control power to various equipment using 4 on-board relays. The system has built-in surge protection to prevent damage from electrical surges. Runs on 12-48V DC. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Nov 24 14:59:32 2016 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 19:59:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Versatile remote monitoring component In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9657489fff4f423da32a02bd01c220e0@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Related, this is a similar type of product for remote telecom sites, we have used dozens of these for many interesting configurations. The relays on this unit allow for a lot of options from rebooting devices to starting generator. http://www.remotemonitoringsystems.ca/ Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: November-22-16 11:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Versatile remote monitoring component Wrenches, I support the PV for several Access Point sites for a local wireless internet provider, a nonprofit that serves rural and remote areas around Santa Fe. Through working with them I learned of a product that others here may find useful at remote sites. It's a Web Based Remote Monitor and Control System. Info is at https://www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=TPDINMONITORWEB&eq=&Tp=&o1=0. From the web page: The PowerSENS is a versatile tool which enables the equipment designer and installer to remotely monitor his equipment and site. The unit can be accessed via the network (web and SNMP) to remotely monitor up to 4 voltages (up to 80V DC), 4 currents (up to 16A), 2 temperatures and control power to various equipment using 4 on-board relays. The system has built-in surge protection to prevent damage from electrical surges. Runs on 12-48V DC. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Nov 25 20:27:42 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 18:27:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Grid neutral In-Reply-To: <007201d24680$26f6ea80$74e4bf80$@net> References: <007201d24680$26f6ea80$74e4bf80$@net> Message-ID: Wrenches, Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing design=20 support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper, rare in=20 these parts. He claims that utility current is carried in part through=20 the ground and in part through a neutral conductor, and such a "utility=20 neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I pushed back (see below).=20 Now I just wonder what Wrenches more knowledgeable than I am will say. Thank you, Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** -------- Forwarded Message -------- Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700 Allan Happy thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here. All wet sorry. If you look at the power lines you will see two or three=20 wires at top of pole and the one smaller one a little ways down the=20 pole. This is the power station neutral. The hots bidirectional is an explanation that helps people understand=20 current but is not totally clear. Even if you use that visualization in order for the electrons on the hot=20 to oscillate they heed a path to oscillate into and out of That is the =E2=80=9Cneutral=E2=80=9D. Bottom line is from the power station and in your home you have at least=20 one hot and one neutral. You can actually use the hot to light up a lite bulb by connecting the=20 other side of the lite bulb to the earth. This one way you can get electrocuted. I touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the current went thru me and=20 into the earth=E2=80=A6not much fun. This has been openly publicly discussed and one of the electrical=20 association advised the power companies to increase the size of the=20 neutral to solve many issues, such as cows giving less milk and problems=20 with electric current in homes. The power companies even openly discuss=20 this. In *remote rural areas* of Australia, I have seen electricity=20 distribution using SWER (Single-Wire Earth Return); just one wire is fed=20 to the property at a high voltage, with the current returning via the=20 ground. At the property, a transformer turns the high voltage into=20 normal residential voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC in Australia vs=20 2x115V in some other countries). But this SWER system is inefficient,=20 and the supply voltage is poorly regulated; it is a rare exception - it=20 is only done because of the high cost of delivering two wires in remote=20 areas. In *metropolitan areas*, you will typically see 4 wires passing down the=20 street. This consists of three phases of "Active", plus a "Neutral". You=20 could /imagine/ the Active carrying current "from" the power grid, and=20 the Neutral carrying the current "back to" the power grid (even though=20 the current flow is symmetrical). There is lots of info online if you wish to learn more about this. Take care, Robert *From:*Allan Sindelar [mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com] *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM Robert, I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility employee, so I may be=20 all wet here, and if so please dry me off with a straight-up=20 explanation. But this whole argument seems specious to me, as it=20 addresses a "grid neutral". My reasoning is this - there is no such animal as a "grid neutral" in=20 utility lines, so how is this issue even relevant? The "hots" are=20 bidirectional; only when the utility power is stepped down at the=20 transformer at the home is a reference neutral created. To say that the=20 current "cannot all go back thru the neutral since it is not large=20 enough BY DESIGN" seems to me an absurd concept since there is no=20 neutral in utility power distribution. Am I missing something? Allan On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote: Allan Here is the info I said I would send: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DaJOB2FIqUiQ_. Listen about 20 minutes at least. All current that goes =E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D on the two residential or t= hree commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral AND thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru the neutral since it is not large enough BY DESIGN. So=E2=80=A6. That means we really do= n=E2=80=99t have a clean ground anymore. Thank you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk Sat Nov 26 04:57:37 2016 From: hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk (Hugh Piggott) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 09:57:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid neutral In-Reply-To: References: <007201d24680$26f6ea80$74e4bf80$@net> Message-ID: hi Allan, One fact that might be useful to consider is that a three phase supply has 3 hot/live/active wires and one neutral. The 3 currents returning to the neutral actually cancel each other out (due to phase differences) and in a perfectly balanced load situation there is no need for a neutral, but where a number of diverse circuits are connected there will be some imbalance, so you need a wire there, but it need not be as heavy as the 3 “hot" ones. cheers Hugh Hugh Piggott Scoraig Wind Electric Dundonnell Ross shire IV23 2RE, UK +44 77 1315 7600 hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk www.scoraigwind.co.uk > On 26 Nov 2016, at 01:27, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing design support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper, rare in these parts. He claims that utility current is carried in part through the ground and in part through a neutral conductor, and such a "utility neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I pushed back (see below). Now I just wonder what Wrenches more knowledgeable than I am will say. > Thank you, > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700 > > Allan > Happy thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here. > > All wet sorry. If you look at the power lines you will see two or three wires at top of pole and the one smaller one a little ways down the pole. This is the power station neutral. > > The hots bidirectional is an explanation that helps people understand current but is not totally clear. > Even if you use that visualization in order for the electrons on the hot to oscillate they heed a path to oscillate into and out of > That is the “neutral”. > > Bottom line is from the power station and in your home you have at least one hot and one neutral. > You can actually use the hot to light up a lite bulb by connecting the other side of the lite bulb to the earth. > This one way you can get electrocuted. > I touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the current went thru me and into the earth…not much fun. > > This has been openly publicly discussed and one of the electrical association advised the power companies to increase the size of the neutral to solve many issues, such as cows giving less milk and problems with electric current in homes. The power companies even openly discuss this. > > In remote rural areas of Australia, I have seen electricity distribution using SWER (Single-Wire Earth Return); just one wire is fed to the property at a high voltage, with the current returning via the ground. At the property, a transformer turns the high voltage into normal residential voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC in Australia vs 2x115V in some other countries). But this SWER system is inefficient, and the supply voltage is poorly regulated; it is a rare exception - it is only done because of the high cost of delivering two wires in remote areas. > > In metropolitan areas, you will typically see 4 wires passing down the street. This consists of three phases of "Active", plus a "Neutral". You could imagine the Active carrying current "from" the power grid, and the Neutral carrying the current "back to" the power grid (even though the current flow is symmetrical). > > There is lots of info online if you wish to learn more about this. > Take care, Robert > > From: Allan Sindelar [mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com ] > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM > > Robert, > I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility employee, so I may be all wet here, and if so please dry me off with a straight-up explanation. But this whole argument seems specious to me, as it addresses a "grid neutral". > > My reasoning is this - there is no such animal as a "grid neutral" in utility lines, so how is this issue even relevant? The "hots" are bidirectional; only when the utility power is stepped down at the transformer at the home is a reference neutral created. To say that the current "cannot all go back thru the neutral since it is not large enough BY DESIGN" seems to me an absurd concept since there is no neutral in utility power distribution. > > Am I missing something? > Allan > > On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote: > Allan > Here is the info I said I would send: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ . Listen about 20 minutes at least. > > All current that goes “out” on the two residential or three commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral > AND thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru the neutral since it is not large enough BY DESIGN. So…. That means we really don’t have a clean ground anymore. > > Thank you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with you. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Nov 26 10:32:54 2016 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:32:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Grid neutral In-Reply-To: References: <007201d24680$26f6ea80$74e4bf80$@net> Message-ID: <13c3abbf-f378-cf6e-2295-9fe4f05fb51c@berkeleysolar.com> Allen, Back when people used to read books to learn, at least you had to spend=20 several hours studying something, then you could be 50% an expert. Now=20 with the interwebs, watch only at least the first 20 minutes of a=20 YouTube video and you can have an unshakeable conviction in a new belief=20 as truth. If you are off grid, what do yo care about the structure of the utility=20 anyway. None of use use "grid" power directly, but always through some=20 form of power transformation. There is no "flow" of current from the home all the way back to the=20 power plant, only the impression of electromotive force. The electron=20 lighting my lamp now moves only several hundred feet back toward the=20 power plant before after one half of one sixtieth of a second, it flows=20 back away from the power plant, a perpetual prisoner of the copper wire=20 near my home. The grid is not what it was when Tesla first balanced all the loads in a=20 3-phase system so no current flowed in the neutral. Massive distortion=20 caused by solid state electronic equipment now makes the job of=20 balancing the neutral complex in ways I don't even understand. I would=20 imagine that up-sizing the neutral can only help, but I might be prone=20 to using a impact driver to tighten a 24 gauge wire into a cheap plastic=20 terminal block. Still, it does make sense to me to make the neutral in a small off-grid=20 power system sized equivalent to the phase conductors to protect against=20 the loss of all countervailing forces that would otherwise reduce the=20 current in the neutral. Mark On 11/25/2016 5:27 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing=20 > design support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper,=20 > rare in these parts. He claims that utility current is carried in part=20 > through the ground and in part through a neutral conductor, and such a=20 > "utility neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I pushed back=20 > (see below). Now I just wonder what Wrenches more knowledgeable than I=20 > am will say. > Thank you, > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700 > > > Allan > > Happy thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here. > > All wet sorry. If you look at the power lines you will see two or=20 > three wires at top of pole and the one smaller one a little ways down=20 > the pole. This is the power station neutral. > > The hots bidirectional is an explanation that helps people understand=20 > current but is not totally clear. > > Even if you use that visualization in order for the electrons on the=20 > hot to oscillate they heed a path to oscillate into and out of > > That is the =E2=80=9Cneutral=E2=80=9D. > > Bottom line is from the power station and in your home you have at=20 > least one hot and one neutral. > > You can actually use the hot to light up a lite bulb by connecting the=20 > other side of the lite bulb to the earth. > > This one way you can get electrocuted. > > I touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the current went thru me=20 > and into the earth=E2=80=A6not much fun. > > This has been openly publicly discussed and one of the electrical=20 > association advised the power companies to increase the size of the=20 > neutral to solve many issues, such as cows giving less milk and=20 > problems with electric current in homes. The power companies even=20 > openly discuss this. > > In *remote rural areas* of Australia, I have seen electricity=20 > distribution using SWER (Single-Wire Earth Return); just one wire is=20 > fed to the property at a high voltage, with the current returning via=20 > the ground. At the property, a transformer turns the high voltage=20 > into normal residential voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC in=20 > Australia vs 2x115V in some other countries). But this SWER system is=20 > inefficient, and the supply voltage is poorly regulated; it is a rare=20 > exception - it is only done because of the high cost of delivering two=20 > wires in remote areas. > > In *metropolitan areas*, you will typically see 4 wires passing down=20 > the street. This consists of three phases of "Active", plus a=20 > "Neutral". You could /imagine/ the Active carrying current "from" the=20 > power grid, and the Neutral carrying the current "back to" the power=20 > grid (even though the current flow is symmetrical). > > There is lots of info online if you wish to learn more about this. > > Take care, Robert > > *From:*Allan Sindelar [mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM > > Robert, > I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility employee, so I may be=20 > all wet here, and if so please dry me off with a straight-up=20 > explanation. But this whole argument seems specious to me, as it=20 > addresses a "grid neutral". > > My reasoning is this - there is no such animal as a "grid neutral" in=20 > utility lines, so how is this issue even relevant? The "hots" are=20 > bidirectional; only when the utility power is stepped down at the=20 > transformer at the home is a reference neutral created. To say that=20 > the current "cannot all go back thru the neutral since it is not large=20 > enough BY DESIGN" seems to me an absurd concept since there is no=20 > neutral in utility power distribution. > > Am I missing something? > Allan > > On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote: > > Allan > > Here is the info I said I would send: > _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DaJOB2FIqUiQ_. Listen about 20 > minutes at least. > > All current that goes =E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D on the two residential or= three > commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral > > AND thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru the neutral since > it is not large enough BY DESIGN. So=E2=80=A6. That means we really = don=E2=80=99t > have a clean ground anymore. > > Thank you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with you. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Nov 26 11:11:34 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 11:11:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. > Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to > various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 25^th Anniversary 1991-2016/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Nov 26 11:25:20 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 11:25:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Grid neutral In-Reply-To: References: <007201d24680$26f6ea80$74e4bf80$@net> Message-ID: <20161126162520.25BD3108F0@che.dreamhost.com> A 120/240 V split phase system is supplied by a center tapped 240 V transformer. The center tap is grounded, deriving the neutral. Unbalanced current from the two hot phase conductors return back through the neutral. At 08:27 PM 11/25/2016, you wrote: >Wrenches, >Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I >have been providing design support to a client >for a large off grid system; a prepper, rare in >these parts. He claims that utility current is >carried in part through the ground and in part >through a neutral conductor, and such a "utility >neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I >pushed back (see below). Now I just wonder what >Wrenches more knowledgeable than I am will say. >Thank you, >Allan > >Allan Sindelar >allan at sindelarsolar.com >NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >505 780-2738 cell > >-------- Forwarded Message -------- >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700 > >Allan >Happy thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here. > >All wet sorry. If you look at the power lines >you will see two or three wires at top of pole >and the one smaller one a little ways down the >pole. This is the power station neutral. > >The hots bidirectional is an explanation that >helps people understand current but is not totally clear. >Even if you use that visualization in order for >the electrons on the hot to oscillate they heed >a path to oscillate into and out of >That is the “neutral”. > >Bottom line is from the power station and in >your home you have at least one hot and one neutral. >You can actually use the hot to light up a lite >bulb by connecting the other side of the lite bulb to the earth. >This one way you can get electrocuted. >I touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the >current went thru me and into the earth not much fun. > >This has been openly publicly discussed and one >of the electrical association advised the power >companies to increase the size of the neutral to >solve many issues, such as cows giving less milk >and problems with electric current in homes. The >power companies even openly discuss this. > >In remote rural areas of Australia, I have seen >electricity distribution using SWER (Single-Wire >Earth Return); just one wire is fed to the >property at a high voltage, with the current >returning via the ground. At the property, a >transformer turns the high voltage into normal >residential voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC >in Australia vs 2x115V in some other countries). >But this SWER system is inefficient, and the >supply voltage is poorly regulated; it is a rare >exception - it is only done because of the high >cost of delivering two wires in remote areas. > >In metropolitan areas, you will typically see 4 >wires passing down the street. This consists of >three phases of "Active", plus a "Neutral". You >could imagine the Active carrying current "from" >the power grid, and the Neutral carrying the >current "back to" the power grid (even though the current flow is symmetrical). > >There is lots of info online if you wish to learn more about this. >Take care, Robert > >From: Allan Sindelar >[mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com] >Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM > >Robert, >I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility >employee, so I may be all wet here, and if so >please dry me off with a straight-up >explanation. But this whole argument seems >specious to me, as it addresses a "grid neutral". > >My reasoning is this - there is no such animal >as a "grid neutral" in utility lines, so how is >this issue even relevant? The "hots" are >bidirectional; only when the utility power is >stepped down at the transformer at the home is a >reference neutral created. To say that the >current "cannot all go back thru the neutral >since it is not large enough BY DESIGN" seems to >me an absurd concept since there is no neutral in utility power distribution. > >Am I missing something? >Allan > >On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote: >Allan >Here is the info I said I would send: >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ. >Listen about 20 minutes at least. > >All current that goes “out” on the two >residential or three commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral >AND thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru >the neutral since it is not large enough BY >DESIGN. So . That means we really don’t have a clean ground anymore. > >Thank you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with you. > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun Nov 27 10:17:47 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 09:17:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app for a cordless drill? It's not like we'd be using it hands-free anyway. You can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand and adjusting at the same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad mismatch. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 11:50:44 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 09:50:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the app was good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, behind password) for installing racking lags, another set more delicately for mounting equipment, etc, but watched one of their videos and the torque is not calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a range of 1-4, and the app lets you do a 2-1/2 for example. The actual torque is up to you to figure out.....so you still need calibrated hand torque wrenches. Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super expensive)....and I'm not sure I like the idea of adding complicated electronics to a really simple, reliable tool. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett wrote: > Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app for > a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it hands-free anyway. You can > imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand and adjusting at the > same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad mismatch. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > > > Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh > > > > On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst > other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds > and torques using a smart phone app. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Nov 27 21:40:29 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 19:40:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Grid neutral In-Reply-To: <13c3abbf-f378-cf6e-2295-9fe4f05fb51c@berkeleysolar.com> References: <007201d24680$26f6ea80$74e4bf80$@net> <13c3abbf-f378-cf6e-2295-9fe4f05fb51c@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Mark and all, Thank you for some very useful replies. You confirmed my understanding. You know how a customer can be so sure of (usually) himself... Mark, I don't care that much about the structure of the utility. But it's this customer's understanding of utility structure that got me the consulting job for a system that would allow him to disconnect from it. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 11/26/2016 8:32 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Allen, > > Back when people used to read books to learn, at least you had to > spend several hours studying something, then you could be 50% an > expert. Now with the interwebs, watch only at least the first 20 > minutes of a YouTube video and you can have an unshakeable conviction > in a new belief as truth. > > If you are off grid, what do yo care about the structure of the > utility anyway. None of use use "grid" power directly, but always > through some form of power transformation. > > Mark > On 11/25/2016 5:27 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> Wrenches, >> Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing >> design support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper, >> rare in these parts. He claims that utility current is carried in >> part through the ground and in part through a neutral conductor, and >> such a "utility neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I >> pushed back (see below). Now I just wonder what Wrenches more >> knowledgeable than I am will say. >> Thank you, >> Allan >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> ** >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Mon Nov 28 07:30:59 2016 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 07:30:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: How can you torque a lag into wood? On Sunday, November 27, 2016, Dan Fink wrote: > I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the app was > good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, behind password) > for installing racking lags, another set more delicately for mounting > equipment, etc, but watched one of their videos and the torque is not > calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a range of 1-4, and the app lets you do a > 2-1/2 for example. The actual torque is up to you to figure out.....so you > still need calibrated hand torque wrenches. > Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super expensive)....and > I'm not sure I like the idea of adding complicated electronics to a really > simple, reliable tool. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett > wrote: > >> Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app >> for a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it hands-free anyway. You >> can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand and adjusting at >> the same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad mismatch. >> >> >> >> Bill Dorsett >> >> Manhattan, KS >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] >> *On Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel >> *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools >> >> >> >> Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh >> >> >> >> On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst >> other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds >> and torques using a smart phone app. >> >> >> >> *Kirk Herander* >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * >> >> *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* >> >> *www.vermontsolarnow.com * >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant >> >> VT RE Incentive Program Partner >> >> 802.863.1202 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 28 07:56:38 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 07:56:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Seems like an unnecessary gimmick to me. That said, I switched to Milwaukee M12 for light tasks and M18 for heavy use and I’m very happy. They even make combo M12/M18 multi-charger. The M12 are super light and the M18 are very good. They also have a better selection for oddball tools. Perhaps the best feature is that I’ve been buying knock-off batteries online for cut rate prices with excellent results. On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello, > > Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst > other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds > and torques using a smart phone app. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 08:41:37 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 09:41:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Grid neutral In-Reply-To: References: <007201d24680$26f6ea80$74e4bf80$@net> <13c3abbf-f378-cf6e-2295-9fe4f05fb51c@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Power stations use ground return. when we constructed power stations in my electrical years, we dug extensive trenches filled with copper conductors to provide the widest earthing system. In a three phase system, only the differential current returns to the power station. That means that there is little current going back. However, the neutral you see on the pole does not go back to the power station, it returns to the transformer. On Nov 27, 2016 22:40, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > Mark and all, > Thank you for some very useful replies. You confirmed my understanding. > You know how a customer can be so sure of (usually) himself... > > Mark, I don't care that much about the structure of the utility. But it's > this customer's understanding of utility structure that got me the > consulting job for a system that would allow him to disconnect from it. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 11/26/2016 8:32 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Allen, > > Back when people used to read books to learn, at least you had to spend > several hours studying something, then you could be 50% an expert. Now with > the interwebs, watch only at least the first 20 minutes of a YouTube video > and you can have an unshakeable conviction in a new belief as truth. > > If you are off grid, what do yo care about the structure of the utility > anyway. None of use use "grid" power directly, but always through some form > of power transformation. > Mark > > > On 11/25/2016 5:27 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing design > support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper, rare in these > parts. He claims that utility current is carried in part through the ground > and in part through a neutral conductor, and such a "utility neutral" is > deliberately undersized. At first I pushed back (see below). Now I just > wonder what Wrenches more knowledgeable than I am will say. > Thank you, > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Nov 28 09:59:52 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 06:59:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <52e25faaa310be880381332535d6f0f9@mail.gmail.com> I was at Home Depot a week or so ago and a sales rep was pointing me to DeWalts new 60v system! http://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/shop-by-cordless-platform/60v-120v Luckily, it is backwards compatible with the 20v stuff. Our crews are still using the DeWalt 18v system but sooner or later we’ll need to change over. August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2016 8:12 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. *Kirk Herander* *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* *www.vermontsolarnow.com * dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 28 11:27:51 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 11:27:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <52e25faaa310be880381332535d6f0f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <52e25faaa310be880381332535d6f0f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah, the Flexvolt system even has 120V tools. Unless you have some serious cutting or boring tasks, I can’t imagine needing these in my line of work. I’ve found the Milwaukee 12V series is surprisingly good for many tasks and super lightweight (nice on a roof). They even make a capable 12V hammer drill, which is hard to find. Jason On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 9:59 AM, August Goers wrote: > I was at Home Depot a week or so ago and a sales rep was pointing me to > DeWalts new 60v system! > > > > http://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/shop-by- > cordless-platform/60v-120v > > > > Luckily, it is backwards compatible with the 20v stuff. Our crews are > still using the DeWalt 18v system but sooner or later we’ll need to change > over. > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2016 8:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > > > Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh > > > > On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst > other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds > and torques using a smart phone app. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, President > > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Mon Nov 28 12:38:43 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 12:38:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> As I understand it, there are 4 buttons on the drill, each can be programmed to one of 10 torque levels through the app. And yes the torque levels are 1 – 10, not torque values. For example, tighten an L-foot to a scrap piece of rail at each torque increment, measuring after with a torque wrench, til you have the values of each increment. Then program the drill buttons to your most often spec’ed torques, and you’re done. Just press one of the four buttons on the drill to get the required torque. The values are set in the drill even with battery removed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiX8HPqXitQ Here’s one of the videos of how the app works. Anyway I need a new M18 driver, so I just ordered one. I will see about practicality in our trade. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the app was good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, behind password) for installing racking lags, another set more delicately for mounting equipment, etc, but watched one of their videos and the torque is not calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a range of 1-4, and the app lets you do a 2-1/2 for example. The actual torque is up to you to figure out.....so you still need calibrated hand torque wrenches. Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super expensive)....and I'm not sure I like the idea of adding complicated electronics to a really simple, reliable tool. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett wrote: Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app for a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it hands-free anyway. You can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand and adjusting at the same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad mismatch. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Mon Nov 28 17:10:24 2016 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:10:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is this ok, Michael? In-Reply-To: References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> Message-ID: FYI, everyone, as someone who looked to Jeff Randall for many, many years for high quality racking and custom battery boxes, I am happy to see he has reincarnated his old business, and named it Solar Rackworks. Here's a link to his new site. I am not an employee nor related in any way, just a happy customer for many years.... http://www.solarrackworks.com/ Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Penobscot Solar Design From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 28 17:15:50 2016 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:15:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Satcon Inverter Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So far I have received excellent support from Jay at SIC. It looks like the owner has a replacement board that I am going to replace with SIC’s telephone support. Hopefully it is compatible, because replacement boards are NOT cheap apparently. Stephen, thanks for the lead on this support option. ​Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Stephen K wrote: > Jason, > > We support a number of Satcons here in the Denver area and utilize paid > for technical support via SIC (http://www.sicusallc.com/) which is a > reconstituted group of folks who formerly worked at Satcon. > Bill Holmes (408.456.6779 and 905.630.7918) is one our main go-to techs > for parts and troubleshooting assistance. > > Hope that helps. > > *Stephen Kane* > > *Co-Owner | Commercial Service and O&M * > > *NABCEP Certified in Solar PV Installation* > > *303.447.0300 x308 <303.447.0300%20x308>* > > *stephen.kane at namastesolar.com* > > 4571 Broadway Street | Boulder, Colorado 80304 > > 3330 Larimer Street, Suite 1A | Denver, Colorado 80205 > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Jason Szumlanski floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Anyone know who does Satcon inverter repair service in Florida? Our local >> University’s 2MW field is acting up. >> >> ​Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group​ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Nov 28 20:58:54 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 20:58:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <000301d249e4$251770b0$6f465210$@burt@glbcc.com> Most battery powered ‘torque’ settings change as the batteries are depleted. Do they say that this is not so for this model? -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:39 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools As I understand it, there are 4 buttons on the drill, each can be programmed to one of 10 torque levels through the app. And yes the torque levels are 1 – 10, not torque values. For example, tighten an L-foot to a scrap piece of rail at each torque increment, measuring after with a torque wrench, til you have the values of each increment. Then program the drill buttons to your most often spec’ed torques, and you’re done. Just press one of the four buttons on the drill to get the required torque. The values are set in the drill even with battery removed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiX8HPqXitQ Here’s one of the videos of how the app works. Anyway I need a new M18 driver, so I just ordered one. I will see about practicality in our trade. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the app was good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, behind password) for installing racking lags, another set more delicately for mounting equipment, etc, but watched one of their videos and the torque is not calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a range of 1-4, and the app lets you do a 2-1/2 for example. The actual torque is up to you to figure out.....so you still need calibrated hand torque wrenches. Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super expensive)....and I'm not sure I like the idea of adding complicated electronics to a really simple, reliable tool. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett wrote: Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app for a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it hands-free anyway. You can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand and adjusting at the same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad mismatch. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Nov 29 12:23:30 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:23:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: I believe that the reason they don't list actual torque values for drill settings is that they can vary quite a bit depending on the SOC of the battery, temperature, drill age, etc. If its a critical torque application, I would not depend on the drill settings, but instead do a final tightening with a calibrated torque wrench. BTW, I have several of the M18 tools (not the programmable) and they've been pretty good. Except the time in Haiti that I had to take the drill apart to clean the dust out of the switch..... Its all electronic now, no simple switches these days. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/28/2016 10:38 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > As I understand it, there are 4 buttons on the drill, each can be > programmed to one of 10 torque levels through the app. And yes the > torque levels are 1 – 10, not torque values. For example, tighten an > L-foot to a scrap piece of rail at each torque increment, measuring > after with a torque wrench, til you have the values of each increment. > Then program the drill buttons to your most often spec’ed torques, and > you’re done. Just press one of the four buttons on the drill to get > the required torque. The values are set in the drill even with battery > removed. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiX8HPqXitQ > > Here’s one of the videos of how the app works. Anyway I need a new M18 > driver, so I just ordered one. I will see about practicality in our trade. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:51 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the app > was good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, behind > password) for installing racking lags, another set more delicately for > mounting equipment, etc, but watched one of their videos and the > torque is not calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a range of 1-4, and the > app lets you do a 2-1/2 for example. The actual torque is up to you to > figure out.....so you still need calibrated hand torque wrenches. > > Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super > expensive)....and I'm not sure I like the idea of adding complicated > electronics to a really simple, reliable tool. > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett > > wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app > for a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it hands-free > anyway. You can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand > and adjusting at the same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad > mismatch. > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh > > On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. > Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to > various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 25^th Anniversary 1991-2016/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Nov 29 12:32:52 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:32:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <"000301d249e4$251770b0$6f465210$@burt"@glbcc.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> <"000301d249e4$251770b0$6f465210$@burt"@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <00c301d24a66$9df849a0$d9e8dce0$@icloud.com> M18 lithium batteries deliver full power until they are almost fully discharged. I doubt it’s an issue. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 8:59 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools Most battery powered ‘torque’ settings change as the batteries are depleted. Do they say that this is not so for this model? -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:39 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools As I understand it, there are 4 buttons on the drill, each can be programmed to one of 10 torque levels through the app. And yes the torque levels are 1 – 10, not torque values. For example, tighten an L-foot to a scrap piece of rail at each torque increment, measuring after with a torque wrench, til you have the values of each increment. Then program the drill buttons to your most often spec’ed torques, and you’re done. Just press one of the four buttons on the drill to get the required torque. The values are set in the drill even with battery removed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiX8HPqXitQ Here’s one of the videos of how the app works. Anyway I need a new M18 driver, so I just ordered one. I will see about practicality in our trade. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the app was good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, behind password) for installing racking lags, another set more delicately for mounting equipment, etc, but watched one of their videos and the torque is not calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a range of 1-4, and the app lets you do a 2-1/2 for example. The actual torque is up to you to figure out.....so you still need calibrated hand torque wrenches. Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super expensive)....and I'm not sure I like the idea of adding complicated electronics to a really simple, reliable tool. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett wrote: Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app for a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it hands-free anyway. You can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand and adjusting at the same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad mismatch. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Nov 29 13:13:41 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:13:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <00c301d24a66$9df849a0$d9e8dce0$@icloud.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> <"000301d249e4$251770b0$6f465210$@burt"@glbcc.com> <00c301d24a66$9df849a0$d9e8dce0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <6556e518-ccf7-8fda-7122-c38ec854a8ee@solarray.com> I own the M18, and the power varies noticeably with discharge, and also with higher amp hour packs. My drill screams with a 5 AH pack! I agree its less of a drop with discharge than with lead acid or NiiCad, but its still enough to make torque settings inaccurate. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/29/2016 10:32 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > M18 lithium batteries deliver full power until they are almost fully > discharged. I doubt it’s an issue. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Monday, November 28, 2016 8:59 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > Most battery powered ‘torque’ settings change as the batteries are > depleted. > > Do they say that this is not so for this model? > > -Glenn > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf > Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Monday, November 28, 2016 12:39 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > As I understand it, there are 4 buttons on the drill, each can be > programmed to one of 10 torque levels through the app. And yes the > torque levels are 1 – 10, not torque values. For example, tighten an > L-foot to a scrap piece of rail at each torque increment, measuring > after with a torque wrench, til you have the values of each increment. > Then program the drill buttons to your most often spec’ed torques, and > you’re done. Just press one of the four buttons on the drill to get > the required torque. The values are set in the drill even with battery > removed. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiX8HPqXitQ > > Here’s one of the videos of how the app works. Anyway I need a new M18 > driver, so I just ordered one. I will see about practicality in our trade. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:51 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the app > was good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, behind > password) for installing racking lags, another set more delicately for > mounting equipment, etc, but watched one of their videos and the > torque is not calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a range of 1-4, and the > app lets you do a 2-1/2 for example. The actual torque is up to you to > figure out.....so you still need calibrated hand torque wrenches. > > Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super > expensive)....and I'm not sure I like the idea of adding complicated > electronics to a really simple, reliable tool. > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett > > wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app > for a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it hands-free > anyway. You can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand > and adjusting at the same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad > mismatch. > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh > > On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. > Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to > various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 25^th Anniversary 1991-2016/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Nov 29 16:01:36 2016 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 16:01:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <6556e518-ccf7-8fda-7122-c38ec854a8ee@solarray.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> <"000301d249e4$251770b0$6f465210$@burt"@glbcc.com> <00c301d24a66$9df849a0$d9e8dce0$@icloud.com> <6556e518-ccf7-8fda-7122-c38ec854a8ee@solarray.com> Message-ID: <004501d24a83$c69dfea0$53d9fbe0$@icloud.com> My strategy is to have several spares in a multi-bay charger, and change out when the battery reads 50% (2 bars). Subjective, I know, but we are talking in-lbs when tightening rack hardware, not ft-lbs. Anyway, I'll report back to the list once I get my programmable M18's and try it out. And I'm curious, how many of us actually use a torque wrench on the job with any regularity, be it rack or electrical connections? I have never seen an everyday electrician use one, even on serious industrial work in a tightly controlled jobsite. Every lug, connector, fastener has a recommended torque. I think we all have seen the damage heat causes as the result of a loose connection. The last commercial system I did, a third party was hired to audit the PV work. It was on the checklist to spot check torques. I have been spot-checking torque ever since. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 1:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools I own the M18, and the power varies noticeably with discharge, and also with higher amp hour packs. My drill screams with a 5 AH pack! I agree its less of a drop with discharge than with lead acid or NiiCad, but its still enough to make torque settings inaccurate. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/29/2016 10:32 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: M18 lithium batteries deliver full power until they are almost fully discharged. I doubt it's an issue. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 8:59 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools Most battery powered 'torque' settings change as the batteries are depleted. Do they say that this is not so for this model? -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:39 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools As I understand it, there are 4 buttons on the drill, each can be programmed to one of 10 torque levels through the app. And yes the torque levels are 1 - 10, not torque values. For example, tighten an L-foot to a scrap piece of rail at each torque increment, measuring after with a torque wrench, til you have the values of each increment. Then program the drill buttons to your most often spec'ed torques, and you're done. Just press one of the four buttons on the drill to get the required torque. The values are set in the drill even with battery removed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiX8HPqXitQ Here's one of the videos of how the app works. Anyway I need a new M18 driver, so I just ordered one. I will see about practicality in our trade. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the app was good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, behind password) for installing racking lags, another set more delicately for mounting equipment, etc, but watched one of their videos and the torque is not calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a range of 1-4, and the app lets you do a 2-1/2 for example. The actual torque is up to you to figure out.....so you still need calibrated hand torque wrenches. Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super expensive)....and I'm not sure I like the idea of adding complicated electronics to a really simple, reliable tool. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified InstructorT for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education ProvidersT 970.672.4342 On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett wrote: Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app for a cordless drill? It's not like we'd be using it hands-free anyway. You can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand and adjusting at the same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad mismatch. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds and torques using a smart phone app. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 22:14:45 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 22:14:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips Message-ID: Wrenchers, I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breaker Box that has a compatible retaining clip. The QO retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be compatible with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! Thanks Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 01:31:53 2016 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 01:31:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips Message-ID: Greetings Adam, Here are a couple/few thoughts which may be helpful. Not knowing the specific circumstance(s) or goal(s) these may or may not be appropriate or useful. Use the 4-8 circuit load center you mentioned with the appropriate circuit breaker and retainer clip and do not twist out the unneeded spaces in the dead front or fill them with the appropriate blanks. Clearly label the load center accordingly and be sure to mark if no other circuits should be installed in it etc. Main Circuit Breaker Disconnect / Circuit Breaker Disconnect: Usually not too difficult to source 60A, 100A, or 125A 120/240VAC double pole main CB disconnects. Install the appropriate 60A CB you need. Confirm the design of specific item you are looking at or ordering meets the retained/fastened in place circuit breaker requirement. Some designed for the HVACR trade for example may not have the ability to retain/fasten the circuit breaker in place. Also; be sure item has the appropriate isolated or bonded Neutral terminal to meet your needs, as well as the equipment grounding lug/terminal. Disconnect may be designed for use as service equipment and these may be separate part numbers and/or disconnect may be field convertible. If acceptable for the project, use a suitable fused disconnect switch with the required 60A fuses. Wire line and load sides of switch accordingly for the circumstances at hand and to meet code and be sure to label clearly identifying purpose and the hazards of the switch as installed. Comment above regarding Neutral and EGC terminals apply here as well. May need to order separately. An appropriately rated panel mount double pole circuit breaker installed in a small panel mount type enclosure may be an option as well to meet your requirement. This may be a good option especially if you need a solution which will take up as little space as possible. MidNite Solar may have an appropriate enclosure/box. The appropriate double pole circuit breaker may need to be researched with CBI-electric North America or Safe Circuits, Inc. in Pennsylvania. I have dealt with this issue in various circumstances before, such as needing to install backfed circuit breakers. I do not recall the specific brands and part numbers used, but the major US market manufacturers should have a solution to meet your needs. Hopefully your local electrical supply company can come up with a solution for you, but if still in need I suggest calling Schneider/Square D, Eaton/Cutler-Hammer, or Siemens etc. Third party retainers may also be available which could work with a load center and circuit breaker you may already have, but be aware your local AHJ may not allow a retainer which is not listed/recognized for use with the load center and circuit breaker. Also; we need to remember that in the case of backfeeding a circuit breaker we must make certain it is rated for backfeed, not marked "Line" and "Load". I hope that I understood your question correctly and that some of these thoughts may be helpful. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com ------ Original Message Below ------ [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips AE Solar autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 19:14:45 PST 2016 Wrenchers, I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breaker Box that has a compatible retaining clip. The QO retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be compatible with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! Thanks Adam From august at luminalt.com Wed Nov 30 10:39:39 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 07:39:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a093797982069154d0b315a96cb3b6a@mail.gmail.com> Hi Adam – Can you elaborate a bit on what you are trying to accomplish and perhaps give a description of the single line setup? August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *AE Solar *Sent:* Tuesday, November 29, 2016 7:15 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips Wrenchers, I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breaker Box that has a compatible retaining clip. The QO retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be compatible with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! Thanks Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Nov 30 10:45:23 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:45:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161130154530.7C91F1052A@che.dreamhost.com> Siemens has main breaker retainers. The retainers for QO seem work on some boxes and not others. It doesn't work on 6 space boxes I've purchased, but does work on the 8. At 10:14 PM 11/29/2016, you wrote: >Wrenchers, > >I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breaker Box >that has a compatible retaining clip. The QO >retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be >compatible with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! > >Thanks > >Adam >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 11:12:29 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 11:12:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips In-Reply-To: <20161130154530.7C91F1052A@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20161130154530.7C91F1052A@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Sorry I should have elaborated more from the beginning. I am using the panel as a service disconnect for a lineside connection (can’t use a fused/bladed disco because of space constraints). Originally I bought a QO 70A panel, but soon realized that the Square D retention clip (PK2MB) is only compatible with their larger panels. So I bought a larger panel (100A 8 Circuit) and then received some feedback that having the open spaces (even if labeled that “Do Not Add Loads”) could raise a flag with an inspector. So then I was back on the hunt for a dedicated 2 Pole 60A or 70A panel with a compatible retention clip for a 30A breaker. Eaton’s retention options only start in the 60A range (the smaller breakers don’t have the hole in them to put the bolt through). Square D said they don’t have an option for their 70A panel. There aren’t any good Siemans distributors near me but I wasn’t finding an option via google for them either. I talked with another Wrencher on the phone and received this feedback which I’m just going to cut and paste to include it in this thread: “The NEC doesn’t require a hold down clamp for the circuit breaker unless it can be backfed from a multi-mode or stand-alone inverter (690.10(E)). The language implies that a hold-down is therefore not required elsewhere. Most modern breakers (def. QO’s) are not marked “line” and “load” so no problem there (also in same code section). Even when it was a requirement for all PV outputs, John Wiles had argued that taking off the panel cover, which required a tool, served as the hold-down, and this was generally accepted.” So taken that advice I’m back to using the QO 70A panel but without a retention clip (or calling the lid the "retention clip"). For what its worth I have passed inspections prior using the retaining clip from a generator interlock kit (QOCGK2C) on a QO 100A panel, but felt like there must be a better option out there.... Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > Siemens has main breaker retainers. The retainers for QO seem work on some > boxes and not others. It doesn't work on 6 space boxes I've purchased, but > does work on the 8. > > At 10:14 PM 11/29/2016, you wrote: > > Wrenchers, > > I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breaker Box that has a compatible > retaining clip. The QO retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be compatible > with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! > > Thanks > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Nov 30 13:05:55 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 11:05:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <004501d24a83$c69dfea0$53d9fbe0$@icloud.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> <"000301d249e4$251770b0$6f465210$@burt"@glbcc.com> <00c301d24a66$9df849a0$d9e8dce0$@icloud.com> <6556e518-ccf7-8fda-7122-c38ec854a8ee@solarray.com> <004501d24a83$c69dfea0$53d9fbe0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <80f574d5-4c48-2293-82ab-a7727b6585f8@solarray.com> I get the torque wrench out occasionally to check, especially if using some new hardware with different specs. However on a daily basis, I generally do it by feel. I have come across an amazing number of over and under torqued connections over the years, though, so it really is an issue for all of us to watch out for. Even though I'm not toting a torque wrench up on the roof, I still hand tighten the final half turn on all connections, to make sure they are right. I don't run a big crew anymore, but I could see the advantage in having pre-programmed settings for the new people. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/29/2016 2:01 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > My strategy is to have several spares in a multi-bay charger, and > change out when the battery reads 50% (2 bars). Subjective, I know, > but we are talking in-lbs when tightening rack hardware, not ft-lbs. > Anyway, I’ll report back to the list once I get my programmable M18’s > and try it out. > > And I’m curious, how many of us actually use a torque wrench on the > job with any regularity, be it rack or electrical connections? I have > never seen an everyday electrician use one, even on serious industrial > work in a tightly controlled jobsite. Every lug, connector, fastener > has a recommended torque. I think we all have seen the damage heat > causes as the result of a loose connection. > > The last commercial system I did, a third party was hired to audit the > PV work. It was on the checklist to spot check torques. I have been > spot-checking torque ever since. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 29, 2016 1:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > I own the M18, and the power varies noticeably with discharge, and > also with higher amp hour packs. My drill screams with a 5 AH pack! > I agree its less of a drop with discharge than with lead acid or > NiiCad, but its still enough to make torque settings inaccurate. > > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/29/2016 10:32 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > M18 lithium batteries deliver full power until they are almost > fully discharged. I doubt it’s an issue. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Monday, November 28, 2016 8:59 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > Most battery powered ‘torque’ settings change as the batteries are > depleted. > > Do they say that this is not so for this model? > > -Glenn > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On > Behalf Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Monday, November 28, 2016 12:39 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > As I understand it, there are 4 buttons on the drill, each can be > programmed to one of 10 torque levels through the app. And yes the > torque levels are 1 – 10, not torque values. For example, tighten > an L-foot to a scrap piece of rail at each torque increment, > measuring after with a torque wrench, til you have the values of > each increment. Then program the drill buttons to your most often > spec’ed torques, and you’re done. Just press one of the four > buttons on the drill to get the required torque. The values are > set in the drill even with battery removed. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiX8HPqXitQ > > Here’s one of the videos of how the app works. Anyway I need a new > M18 driver, so I just ordered one. I will see about practicality > in our trade. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:51 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the > app was good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, > behind password) for installing racking lags, another set more > delicately for mounting equipment, etc, but watched one of their > videos and the torque is not calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a > range of 1-4, and the app lets you do a 2-1/2 for example. The > actual torque is up to you to figure out.....so you still need > calibrated hand torque wrenches. > > Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super > expensive)....and I'm not sure I like the idea of adding > complicated electronics to a really simple, reliable tool. > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett > > wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone > app for a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it > hands-free anyway. You can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling > with one hand and adjusting at the same time with the smart phone? > Sounds like a bad mismatch. > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh > > On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks > interesting. Amongst other things, you can custom program the > cordless drill to various speeds and torques using a smart > phone app. > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 25^th Anniversary 1991-2016/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Nov 30 13:25:56 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 13:25:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips In-Reply-To: References: <20161130154530.7C91F1052A@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20161130182635.5E12210461@che.dreamhost.com> Also be aware that you must meet or exceed the AIR/AIC of the existing service, which may be tough to do with a simple branch breaker used as an new PV service equipment. Refer to NEC 110.9 and 110.10. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: "AE Solar" Sent: ‎11/‎30/‎2016 11:12 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips Sorry I should have elaborated more from the beginning. I am using the panel as a service disconnect for a lineside connection (can’t use a fused/bladed disco because of space constraints). Originally I bought a QO 70A panel, but soon realized that the Square D retention clip (PK2MB) is only compatible with their larger panels. So I bought a larger panel (100A 8 Circuit) and then received some feedback that having the open spaces (even if labeled that “Do Not Add Loads”) could raise a flag with an inspector. So then I was back on the hunt for a dedicated 2 Pole 60A or 70A panel with a compatible retention clip for a 30A breaker. Eaton’s retention options only start in the 60A range (the smaller breakers don’t have the hole in them to put the bolt through). Square D said they don’t have an option for their 70A panel. There aren’t any good Siemans distributors near me but I wasn’t finding an option via google for them either. I talked with another Wrencher on the phone and received this feedback which I’m just going to cut and paste to include it in this thread: “The NEC doesn’t require a hold down clamp for the circuit breaker unless it can be backfed from a multi-mode or stand-alone inverter (690.10(E)). The language implies that a hold-down is therefore not required elsewhere. Most modern breakers (def. QO’s) are not marked “line” and “load” so no problem there (also in same code section). Even when it was a requirement for all PV outputs, John Wiles had argued that taking off the panel cover, which required a tool, served as the hold-down, and this was generally accepted.” So taken that advice I’m back to using the QO 70A panel but without a retention clip (or calling the lid the "retention clip"). For what its worth I have passed inspections prior using the retaining clip from a generator interlock kit (QOCGK2C) on a QO 100A panel, but felt like there must be a better option out there.... Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > Siemens has main breaker retainers. The retainers for QO seem work on some > boxes and not others. It doesn't work on 6 space boxes I've purchased, but > does work on the 8. > > At 10:14 PM 11/29/2016, you wrote: > > Wrenchers, > > I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breaker Box that has a compatible > retaining clip. The QO retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be compatible > with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! > > Thanks > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Nov 30 13:28:34 2016 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 13:28:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <80f574d5-4c48-2293-82ab-a7727b6585f8@solarray.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> <"000301d249e4$251770b0$6f465210$@burt"@glbcc.com> <00c301d24a66$9df849a0$d9e8dce0$@icloud.com> <6556e518-ccf7-8fda-7122-c38ec854a8ee@solarray.com> <004501d24a83$c69dfea0$53d9fbe0$@icloud.com> <80f574d5-4c48-2293-82ab-a7727b6585f8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20161130182913.BA8141046E@che.dreamhost.com> For fasteners that are used often and in volume, you can buy pre-set torque tools that make compliance and repetitive securing a no-brainer. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: "Ray Walters" Sent: ‎11/‎30/‎2016 13:05 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools I get the torque wrench out occasionally to check, especially if using some new hardware with different specs. However on a daily basis, I generally do it by feel. I have come across an amazing number of over and under torqued connections over the years, though, so it really is an issue for all of us to watch out for. Even though I'm not toting a torque wrench up on the roof, I still hand tighten the final half turn on all connections, to make sure they are right. I don't run a big crew anymore, but I could see the advantage in having pre-programmed settings for the new people. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/29/2016 2:01 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > My strategy is to have several spares in a multi-bay charger, and > change out when the battery reads 50% (2 bars). Subjective, I know, > but we are talking in-lbs when tightening rack hardware, not ft-lbs. > Anyway, I’ll report back to the list once I get my programmable M18’s > and try it out. > > And I’m curious, how many of us actually use a torque wrench on the > job with any regularity, be it rack or electrical connections? I have > never seen an everyday electrician use one, even on serious industrial > work in a tightly controlled jobsite. Every lug, connector, fastener > has a recommended torque. I think we all have seen the damage heat > causes as the result of a loose connection. > > The last commercial system I did, a third party was hired to audit the > PV work. It was on the checklist to spot check torques. I have been > spot-checking torque ever since. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 29, 2016 1:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > I own the M18, and the power varies noticeably with discharge, and > also with higher amp hour packs. My drill screams with a 5 AH pack! > I agree its less of a drop with discharge than with lead acid or > NiiCad, but its still enough to make torque settings inaccurate. > > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/29/2016 10:32 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > M18 lithium batteries deliver full power until they are almost > fully discharged. I doubt it’s an issue. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Monday, November 28, 2016 8:59 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > Most battery powered ‘torque’ settings change as the batteries are > depleted. > > Do they say that this is not so for this model? > > -Glenn > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On > Behalf Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Monday, November 28, 2016 12:39 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > As I understand it, there are 4 buttons on the drill, each can be > programmed to one of 10 torque levels through the app. And yes the > torque levels are 1 – 10, not torque values. For example, tighten > an L-foot to a scrap piece of rail at each torque increment, > measuring after with a torque wrench, til you have the values of > each increment. Then program the drill buttons to your most often > spec’ed torques, and you’re done. Just press one of the four > buttons on the drill to get the required torque. The values are > set in the drill even with battery removed. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiX8HPqXitQ > > Here’s one of the videos of how the app works. Anyway I need a new > M18 driver, so I just ordered one. I will see about practicality > in our trade. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:51 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the > app was good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, > behind password) for installing racking lags, another set more > delicately for mounting equipment, etc, but watched one of their > videos and the torque is not calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a > range of 1-4, and the app lets you do a 2-1/2 for example. The > actual torque is up to you to figure out.....so you still need > calibrated hand torque wrenches. > > Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super > expensive)....and I'm not sure I like the idea of adding > complicated electronics to a really simple, reliable tool. > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett > > wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone > app for a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it > hands-free anyway. You can imagine being up on a ladder, drilling > with one hand and adjusting at the same time with the smart phone? > Sounds like a bad mismatch. > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh > > On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks > interesting. Amongst other things, you can custom program the > cordless drill to various speeds and torques using a smart > phone app. > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 25^th Anniversary 1991-2016/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Nov 30 13:57:22 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 13:57:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips In-Reply-To: References: <20161130154530.7C91F1052A@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20161130185729.8D6BC103D3@che.dreamhost.com> Can you come out of the line side tap to the lugs, and connect the solar to the breaker terminals? This way a retainer clip is not required. At 11:12 AM 11/30/2016, you wrote: >Sorry I should have elaborated more from the beginning. > > > >I am using the panel as a service disconnect for >a lineside connection (can’t use a >fused/bladed disco because of space >constraints). Originally I bought a QO 70A >panel, but soon realized that the Square D >retention clip (PK2MB) is only compatible with >their larger panels. So I bought a larger panel >(100A 8 Circuit) and then received some feedback >that having the open spaces (even if labeled >that “Do Not Add Loads”) could raise a flag >with an inspector. So then I was back on the >hunt for a dedicated 2 Pole 60A or 70A panel >with a compatible retention clip for a 30A >breaker. Eaton’s retention options only start >in the 60A range (the smaller breakers don’t >have the hole in them to put the bolt through). >Square D said they don’t have an option for >their 70A panel. There aren’t any good Siemans >distributors near me but I wasn’t finding an >option via google for them either. > > > >I talked with another Wrencher on the phone and >received this feedback which I’m just going to >cut and paste to include it in this thread: > > >“The NEC doesn’t require a hold down clamp >for the circuit breaker unless it can be backfed >from a multi-mode or stand-alone inverter (690.10(E)). > >The language implies that a hold-down is >therefore not required elsewhere. Most modern >breakers (def. QO’s) are not marked “line” >and “load” so no problem there (also in same code section). > > > >Even when it was a requirement for all PV >outputs, John Wiles had argued that taking off >the panel cover, which required a tool, served >as the hold-down, and this was generally accepted.” > > > >So taken that advice I’m back to using the QO >70A panel but without a retention clip (or >calling the lid the "retention clip"). > > > >For what its worth I have passed inspections >prior using the retaining clip from a generator >interlock kit (QOCGK2C) on a QO 100A panel, but >felt like there must be a better option out there.... > >Adam Katzman >Autonomous Energies >PO Box 1245 >Kingston, NY 12402 >www.autonomousenergies.com >(518) 567-1468 > > >On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Siemens has main breaker retainers. The >retainers for QO seem work on some boxes and not >others. It doesn't work on 6 space boxes I've >purchased, but does work on the 8. > >At 10:14 PM 11/29/2016, you wrote: > >>Wrenchers, >> >>I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breaker Box >>that hashas a compatible retaining clip. The QO >>retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be >>compatible with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! >> >>Thanks >> >>Adam >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >---------- > >Avast logo > > > >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >www.avast.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 14:11:06 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 14:11:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips In-Reply-To: <20161130185729.8D6BC103D3@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20161130154530.7C91F1052A@che.dreamhost.com> <20161130185729.8D6BC103D3@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I'm also just now realizing that if I were to rate my wire from the tap/main panel to my 70A disconnect I would want #6awg wire and the QO breakers only go to #8. Drake if I went from the tap right into the lugs, it would leave those lugs hot and exposed. Is that my only option though? Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Drake wrote: > Can you come out of the line side tap to the lugs, and connect the solar > to the breaker terminals? This way a retainer clip is not required. > > At 11:12 AM 11/30/2016, you wrote: > > Sorry I should have elaborated more from the beginning. > >  > > I am using the panel as a service disconnect for a lineside connection > (can’t use a fused/bladed disco because of space constraints). Originally > I bought a QO 70A panel, but soon realized that the Square D retention clip > (PK2MB) is only compatible with their larger panels. So I bought a larger > panel (100A 8 Circuit) and then received some feedback that having the open > spaces (even if labeled that “Do Not Add Loads†) could raise a flag > with an inspector. So then I was back on the hunt for a dedicated 2 Pole > 60A or 70A panel with a compatible retention clip for a 30A breaker. > Eaton’s retention options only start in the 60A range (the smaller > breakers don’t have the hole in them to put the bolt through). Square D > said they don’t have an option for their 70A panel. There aren’t any > good Siemans distributors near me but I wasn’t finding an option via > google for them either. > >  > > I talked with another Wrencher on the phone and received this feedback > which I’m just going to cut and paste to include it in this thread: > > > “The NEC doesn’t require a hold down clamp for the circuit breaker > unless it can be backfed from a multi-mode or stand-alone inverter > (690.10(E)). > > The language implies that a hold-down is therefore not required elsewhere. > Most modern breakers (def. QO’s) are not marked “line†and “load†> so no problem there (also in same code section). > >  > > Even when it was a requirement for all PV outputs, John Wiles had argued > that taking off the panel cover, which required a tool, served as the > hold-down, and this was generally accepted.†> >  > > So taken that advice I’m back to using the QO 70A panel but without a > retention clip (or calling the lid the "retention clip"). > >  > > For what its worth I have passed inspections prior using the retaining > clip from a generator interlock kit (QOCGK2C) on a QO 100A panel, but felt > like there must be a better option out there.... > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin@ > redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > Siemens has main breaker retainers. The retainers for QO seem work on some > boxes and not others. It doesn't work on 6 space boxes I've purchased, but > does work on the 8. > > At 10:14 PM 11/29/2016, you wrote: > > Wrenchers, > > I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breaker Box that hashas a compatible > retaining clip. The QO retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be compatible > with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! > > Thanks > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 14:16:02 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:16:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <004501d24a83$c69dfea0$53d9fbe0$@icloud.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> <000301d249e4$251770b0$6f465210$@burt@glbcc.com> <00c301d24a66$9df849a0$d9e8dce0$@icloud.com> <6556e518-ccf7-8fda-7122-c38ec854a8ee@solarray.com> <004501d24a83$c69dfea0$53d9fbe0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: I absolutely use a torque wrench on big electrical equipment, when tightening 2/0 to 500MCM terminals. I carry an electronic 3/8 torque wrench in the truck for that. When I do generators and large switchgear I regard it as essential to get the correct torque settings and use them. I use a set of three Filo torque screwdriver handles covering 1.5 to 4.5 Nm with two sets of drivers, use them for all inverter connections. I'll generally use the torque screwdriver to check a new panel, go over all the breaker terminals once we have finished. On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > My strategy is to have several spares in a multi-bay charger, and change > out when the battery reads 50% (2 bars). Subjective, I know, but we are > talking in-lbs when tightening rack hardware, not ft-lbs. Anyway, I’ll > report back to the list once I get my programmable M18’s and try it out. > > > > And I’m curious, how many of us actually use a torque wrench on the job > with any regularity, be it rack or electrical connections? I have never > seen an everyday electrician use one, even on serious industrial work in a > tightly controlled jobsite. Every lug, connector, fastener has a > recommended torque. I think we all have seen the damage heat causes as the > result of a loose connection. > > The last commercial system I did, a third party was hired to audit the PV > work. It was on the checklist to spot check torques. I have been > spot-checking torque ever since. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 29, 2016 1:14 PM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > > > I own the M18, and the power varies noticeably with discharge, and also > with higher amp hour packs. My drill screams with a 5 AH pack! I agree > its less of a drop with discharge than with lead acid or NiiCad, but its > still enough to make torque settings inaccurate. > > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> > > On 11/29/2016 10:32 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > M18 lithium batteries deliver full power until they are almost fully > discharged. I doubt it’s an issue. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Monday, November 28, 2016 8:59 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > > > Most battery powered ‘torque’ settings change as the batteries are > depleted. > > Do they say that this is not so for this model? > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Monday, November 28, 2016 12:39 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > > > As I understand it, there are 4 buttons on the drill, each can be > programmed to one of 10 torque levels through the app. And yes the torque > levels are 1 – 10, not torque values. For example, tighten an L-foot to a > scrap piece of rail at each torque increment, measuring after with a torque > wrench, til you have the values of each increment. Then program the drill > buttons to your most often spec’ed torques, and you’re done. Just press one > of the four buttons on the drill to get the required torque. The values are > set in the drill even with battery removed. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiX8HPqXitQ > > Here’s one of the videos of how the app works. Anyway I need a new M18 > driver, so I just ordered one. I will see about practicality in our trade. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Sunday, November 27, 2016 11:51 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > > > I thought the idea of being to preset torque RPM settings from the app was > good, my reasoning being have one impact set (by the boss, behind password) > for installing racking lags, another set more delicately for mounting > equipment, etc, but watched one of their videos and the torque is not > calibrated to in-lbs, it's like a range of 1-4, and the app lets you do a > 2-1/2 for example. The actual torque is up to you to figure out.....so you > still need calibrated hand torque wrenches. > > Not enough to make me switch brands (that would be super expensive)....and > I'm not sure I like the idea of adding complicated electronics to a really > simple, reliable tool. > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17 AM, William Dorsett > wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance but what would be the purpose of a smart phone app for > a cordless drill? It’s not like we’d be using it hands-free anyway. You can > imagine being up on a ladder, drilling with one hand and adjusting at the > same time with the smart phone? Sounds like a bad mismatch. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools > > > > Don't tell me this, I just bought Dewalt tools. ahhh > > > > On 11/22/2016 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone out there invested in these tools yet? Looks interesting. Amongst > other things, you can custom program the cordless drill to various speeds > and torques using a smart phone app. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Nov 30 20:13:22 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips In-Reply-To: References: <20161130154530.7C91F1052A@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <7b9fe9d22701d660ce965bc24a02e582@mail.gmail.com> Hi Adam, Most load center panels list backfed breaker requirements on the inside of the cover or inside the can. Some panels do no require breaker hold down kits at all, even when backfeeding as a main breaker. As you mention below, utility-interactive inverter breakers don’t need to be fastened – check out 2014 NEC 705.12(D)(4) and (5): I’m still not fully understanding what you’re trying to accomplish. If you need overcurrent protection for your supply side connection then you can use a fused disconnect or a backfed breaker with numerous different configurations to your inverter(s). I believe it is okay to run your utility side conductors to the panel lugs if need be, but in my opinion that is not ideal for servicing. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *AE Solar *Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2016 8:12 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips Sorry I should have elaborated more from the beginning. I am using the panel as a service disconnect for a lineside connection (can’t use a fused/bladed disco because of space constraints). Originally I bought a QO 70A panel, but soon realized that the Square D retention clip (PK2MB) is only compatible with their larger panels. So I bought a larger panel (100A 8 Circuit) and then received some feedback that having the open spaces (even if labeled that “Do Not Add Loads”) could raise a flag with an inspector. So then I was back on the hunt for a dedicated 2 Pole 60A or 70A panel with a compatible retention clip for a 30A breaker. Eaton’s retention options only start in the 60A range (the smaller breakers don’t have the hole in them to put the bolt through). Square D said they don’t have an option for their 70A panel. There aren’t any good Siemans distributors near me but I wasn’t finding an option via google for them either. I talked with another Wrencher on the phone and received this feedback which I’m just going to cut and paste to include it in this thread: “The NEC doesn’t require a hold down clamp for the circuit breaker unless it can be backfed from a multi-mode or stand-alone inverter (690.10(E)). The language implies that a hold-down is therefore not required elsewhere. Most modern breakers (def. QO’s) are not marked “line” and “load” so no problem there (also in same code section). Even when it was a requirement for all PV outputs, John Wiles had argued that taking off the panel cover, which required a tool, served as the hold-down, and this was generally accepted.” So taken that advice I’m back to using the QO 70A panel but without a retention clip (or calling the lid the "retention clip"). For what its worth I have passed inspections prior using the retaining clip from a generator interlock kit (QOCGK2C) on a QO 100A panel, but felt like there must be a better option out there.... Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: Siemens has main breaker retainers. The retainers for QO seem work on some boxes and not others. It doesn't work on 6 space boxes I've purchased, but does work on the 8. At 10:14 PM 11/29/2016, you wrote: Wrenchers, I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breaker Box that has a compatible retaining clip. The QO retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be compatible with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! Thanks Adam _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 51191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Nov 30 21:00:18 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 21:00:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips In-Reply-To: References: <20161130154530.7C91F1052A@che.dreamhost.com> <20161130185729.8D6BC103D3@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20161201020025.52DEC1087E@che.dreamhost.com> Hi Adam, It ok for the main lugs to be hot. There will always be a hot wire in the box somewhere. The main lugs are a very safe place to land it. Even with main breakers, the lugs feeding the breakers are always hot. This is a lot safer than having an "always hot" wire going to a breaker that could conceivably come loose even with a retainer. Best, Drake At 02:11 PM 11/30/2016, you wrote: >I'm also just now realizing that if I were to >rate my wire from the tap/main panel to my 70A >disconnect I would want #6awg wire and the QO breakers only go to #8. > >Drake if I went from the tap right into the >lugs, it would leave those lugs hot and exposed. >Is that my only option though? > >Adam Katzman >Autonomous Energies >PO Box 1245 >Kingston, NY 12402 >www.autonomousenergies.com >(518) 567-1468 > > >On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Can you come out of the line side tap to the >lugs, and connect the solar to the breaker >terminals? This way a retainer clip is not required. > >At 11:12 AM 11/30/2016, you wrote: > >>Sorry I should have elaborated more from the beginning. >> >> >> >>I am using the panel as a service disconnect >>for a lineside connection (can’t use a >>fused/bladed disco because of space >>conconstraints). Originally I bought a QO 70A >>panel, but soon realized that the Square D >>retention clip (PK2MB) is only compatible with >>their larger panels. So I bought a larger panel >>(100A 8 Circuit) and then received some >>feedback that having the open spaces (even if >>labeled that “Do N Not Add Loads†) could >>raise a flag with an inspector. So then I was >>back on the hunt for a dedicated 2 Pole 60A or >>70A panel with a compatible retention clip for >>a 30A breaker. Eaton’s retention options >>only start rt in the 60A range (the smaller >>breakers don’t have the hole in them to to >>put the bolt through). Square D said they >>don’t have an option fo for their 70A panel. >>There aren’t any good Siemans distributors >>near me be but I wasn’t t finding an option via google for them either. >> >> >> >>I talked with another Wrencher on the phone and >>received this feedback which I’m just going >>to cut and paste to include it it in this thread: >> >> >>“The NEC doesn’t require a hold hold down >>clamp for the circuit breaker unless it can be >>backfed from a multi-mode or stand-alone inverter (690.10(E)). >> >>The language implies that a hold-down is >>therefore not required elsewhere. Most modern >>breakers (def. QO’s) are not ot marked >>“line†¬ and “load†so no problem >>there (also in in same code section). >> >> >> >>Even when it was a requirement for all PV >>outputs, John Wiles had argued that taking off >>the panel cover, which required a tool, served >>as the hold-down, and this was generally accepted.†>> >> >> >>So taken that advice I’m back to using the >>QO 70A panel but without a retention clip (or >>calling the lid the "retention clip"). >> >> >> >>For what its worth I have passed inspections >>prior using the retaining clip from a generator >>interlock kit (QOCGK2C) on a QO 100A panel, but >>felt like there must be a better option out there.... >> >>Adam Katzman >>Autonomous Energies >>PO Box 1245 >>Kingston, NY 12402 >>www.autonomousenergies.com >>(518) 567-1468 >> >> >>On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Drake >>< >>drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>Siemens has main breaker retainers. The >>retainers for QO seem work on some boxes and >>not others. It doesn't work on 6 space boxes >>I've purchased, but does work on the 8. >> >>At 10:14 PM 11/29/2016, you wrote: >> >>>Wrenchers, >>>I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole >>>Breakeaker Box that hashas a compatible >>>retaining clip. The QO retaining clip >>>(PK2MBCP) seems to only be compatible with >>>their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? Thanks! >>>Thanks >>>Adam >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >---------- > >Avast logo > > > > >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >www.avast.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >---------- > >Avast logo > > > >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >www.avast.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 22:00:54 2016 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 22:00:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retaining Clips In-Reply-To: <20161201020025.52DEC1087E@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20161130154530.7C91F1052A@che.dreamhost.com> <20161130185729.8D6BC103D3@che.dreamhost.com> <20161201020025.52DEC1087E@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: OK thanks August. 2014 NEC 705.12(D) (5) is the answer I was looking for. I wasn't aware that I didn't need the retention clip. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks everyone. On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:00 PM, Drake wrote: > Hi Adam, > > It ok for the main lugs to be hot. There will always be a hot wire in the > box somewhere. The main lugs are a very safe place to land it. Even with > main breakers, the lugs feeding the breakers are always hot. > > This is a lot safer than having an "always hot" wire going to a breaker > that could conceivably come loose even with a retainer. > > Best, > > Drake > > > At 02:11 PM 11/30/2016, you wrote: > > I'm also just now realizing that if I were to rate my wire from the > tap/main panel to my 70A disconnect I would want #6awg wire and the QO > breakers only go to #8. > > Drake if I went from the tap right into the lugs, it would leave those > lugs hot and exposed. Is that my only option though? > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Drake < drake.chamberlin@ > redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > Can you come out of the line side tap to the lugs, and connect the solar > to the breaker terminals? This way a retainer clip is not required. > > At 11:12 AM 11/30/2016, you wrote: > > Sorry I should have elaborated more from the beginning. > >  > > I am using the panel as a service disconnect for a lineside connection > (can’t use a fused/bladed disco because of space conconstraints). > Originally I bought a QO 70A panel, but soon realized that the Square D > retention clip (PK2MB) is only compatible with their larger panels. So I > bought a larger panel (100A 8 Circuit) and then received some feedback that > having the open spaces (even if labeled that “Do N Not Add Loads†) > could raise a flag with an inspector. So then I was back on the hunt for a > dedicated 2 Pole 60A or 70A panel with a compatible retention clip for a > 30A breaker. Eaton’s retention options only start rt in the 60A range > (the smaller breakers don’t have the hole in them to to put the bolt > through). Square D said they don’t have an option fo for their 70A > panel. There aren’t any good Siemans distributors near me be but I > wasn’t t finding an option via google for them either. > >  > > I talked with another Wrencher on the phone and received this feedback > which I’m just going to cut and paste to include it it in this thread: > > > “The NEC doesn’t require a hold hold down clamp for the circuit > breaker unless it can be backfed from a multi-mode or stand-alone inverter > (690.10(E)). > > The language implies that a hold-down is therefore not required elsewhere. > Most modern breakers (def. QO’s) are not ot marked “line†¬ and > “load†so no problem there (also in in same code section). > >  > > Even when it was a requirement for all PV outputs, John Wiles had argued > that taking off the panel cover, which required a tool, served as the > hold-down, and this was generally accepted.†> >  > > So taken that advice I’m back to using the QO 70A panel but without a > retention clip (or calling the lid the "retention clip"). > >  > > For what its worth I have passed inspections prior using the retaining > clip from a generator interlock kit (QOCGK2C) on a QO 100A panel, but > felt like there must be a better option out there.... > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin@ > redwoodalliance.org> wrote: Siemens has main breaker retainers. The > retainers for QO seem work on some boxes and not others. It doesn't work on > 6 space boxes I've purchased, but does work on the 8. > > At 10:14 PM 11/29/2016, you wrote: > > Wrenchers, > I’m trying to find a 60A 2 Pole Breakeaker Box that hashas a > compatible retaining clip. The QO retaining clip (PK2MBCP) seems to only be > compatible with their 4-8 circuit load centers. What are my options? > Thanks! Thanks > Adam _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ > options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > >  > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 14:03:51 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 11:03:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW 4548 selling problem References: <5dde27db-6292-bca5-2b70-12f2e8496253@asis.com> Message-ID: Hi all I've got a buddy who has the following problem. Every parameter has been triple checked. He has been in contact with highers up at tech support. AC grid voltage is 122/123v Anybody have any suggestions or similar problems or answers. Thanks Jay > > Post the question to the wrenches; > Having trouble trying to get a XW4548 to sell sell more than 2.2KW It can run 4KW in loads with the grid off direct from the array with the grid off but will only sell 2.2KW Anyone had a similar issue? From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 30 22:15:36 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 21:15:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools In-Reply-To: <20161130182913.BA8141046E@che.dreamhost.com> References: <005c01d244dc$7ecca380$7c65ea80$@icloud.com> <006701d248c1$75e38a20$61aa9e60$@sbcglobal.net> <000a01d2499e$449a29a0$cdce7ce0$@icloud.com> <"000301d249e4$251770b0$6f465210$@burt"@glbcc.com> <00c301d24a66$9df849a0$d9e8dce0$@icloud.com> <6556e518-ccf7-8fda-7122-c38ec854a8ee@solarray.com> <004501d24a83$c69dfea0$53d9fbe0$@icloud.com> <80f574d5-4c48-2293-82ab-a7727b6585f8@solarray.com> <20161130182913.BA8141046E@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <005801d24b81$303a7ed0$90af7c70$@sbcglobal.net> Glenn, these pre-set wrenches are still pretty pricey. Are there some you’d recommend? Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools For fasteners that are used often and in volume, you can buy pre-set torque tools that make compliance and repetitive securing a no-brainer. Glenn _____ From: Ray Walters Sent: ‎11/‎30/‎2016 13:05 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee M18 one key tools I get the torque wrench out occasionally to check, especially if using some new hardware with different specs. However on a daily basis, I generally do it by feel. I have come across an amazing number of over and under torqued connections over the years, though, so it really is an issue for all of us to watch out for. Even though I'm not toting a torque wrench up on the roof, I still hand tighten the final half turn on all connections, to make sure they are right. I don't run a big crew anymore, but I could see the advantage in having pre-programmed settings for the new people. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/29/2016 2:01 PM, Kirk Herander [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Dec 1 05:57:54 2016 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 10:57:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW 4548 selling problem Message-ID: <20161201105754.18342.qmail@entech-engineering.com> Hi Jay, What is the setting for sell amps? For how long can it run loads in off grid? Chris


------- Original Message ------- On 11/30/2016 7:03 PM Jay wrote:
Hi all

I've got a buddy who has the following problem.

Every parameter has been triple checked.
He has been in contact with highers up at tech support.
AC grid voltage is 122/123v

Anybody have any suggestions or similar problems or answers.

Thanks
Jay


>
> Post the question to the wrenches;
> Having trouble trying to get a XW4548 to sell sell more than 2.2KW It can run 4KW in loads with the grid off direct from the array with the grid off but will only sell 2.2KW Anyone had a similar issue?
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Christopher Warfel, ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807, 401-466-8978 (v)(f) From ptalmage at yahoo.com Sat Dec 3 19:25:48 2016 From: ptalmage at yahoo.com (Peter Talmage) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 00:25:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whole house energy moniters References: <300485351.5289313.1480811148822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <300485351.5289313.1480811148822@mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have experience with whole house energy monitors that work with interfaced PV arrays. It seems most just deal with the array output as a load .  Thanks.  Peter Talmage -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 03:42:01 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 22:42:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whole house energy moniters In-Reply-To: <300485351.5289313.1480811148822@mail.yahoo.com> References: <300485351.5289313.1480811148822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <300485351.5289313.1480811148822@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Peter is this system CT based, can you turn around the CT's as when in most cases installation says to install directional and for solar they get installed backwards instead. Jerry On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Peter Talmage wrote: > Does anyone have experience with whole house energy monitors that work > with interfaced PV arrays. It seems most just deal with the array output as > a load . > > Thanks. Peter Talmage > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 5 09:01:01 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 08:01:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whole house energy moniters In-Reply-To: References: <300485351.5289313.1480811148822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <300485351.5289313.1480811148822@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <020e01d24f00$03c54560$0b4fd020$@sbcglobal.net> There is a new one mentioned in SolarPro, from a company called CURB http://energycurb.com/) . CURB gives CT’s for eighteen different circuits so over time you can understand how each load is performing. One of our families had a broken pump shaft so it never registered that there was more water in the pressure tank, so it ran for weeks. The site mentions that they will be able to predict appliance failure from historical data. And it can monitor overall PV generation. It looks very promising though from the reviews it may not yet allow a download of historical data. It would be great if in addition to logging data, it would allow active management of interlocking relays to control demand charges. There is another product called Energy Sentry (http://energysentry.com/ ) , that allows you to prioritize your large loads so they aren’t allowed to all come on at the same time. As more utilities add Time of Use and demand charges this will be a really valuable piece of hardware. For installers this will become just another value added service. These two companies should merge. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 2:42 AM To: Peter Talmage; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Whole house energy moniters Peter is this system CT based, can you turn around the CT's as when in most cases installation says to install directional and for solar they get installed backwards instead. Jerry On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Peter Talmage wrote: Does anyone have experience with whole house energy monitors that work with interfaced PV arrays. It seems most just deal with the array output as a load . Thanks. Peter Talmage _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philboutelle at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 11:43:01 2016 From: philboutelle at gmail.com (Philip Boutelle) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 08:43:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whole house energy moniters In-Reply-To: <020e01d24f00$03c54560$0b4fd020$@sbcglobal.net> References: <300485351.5289313.1480811148822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <300485351.5289313.1480811148822@mail.yahoo.com> <020e01d24f00$03c54560$0b4fd020$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: This product by Sense is similar to CURB (or eGauge , or other multiple-CT devices), but you install a single set of CTs on the main feeds (plus on on the solar if you have it). The device then 'learns the electronic signature' of the loads in the house to disaggregate what is being used. I haven't tried one yet. https://sense.com/ I have previously installed a beta device from Verdegris, which does the same thing (single CT set) but is geared for commercial customers, whereas Sense is residential. http://verdigris.co/ -Phil -- *Phil Boutelle,* *PE, CEM* | Energy Engineer philboutelle at gmail.com | M (831) 359-5268 <%28831%29%20359-5268> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:01 AM, William Dorsett wrote: > There is a new one mentioned in SolarPro, from a company called CURB > http://energycurb.com/) . CURB gives CT’s for eighteen different circuits > so over time you can understand how each load is performing. One of our > families had a broken pump shaft so it never registered that there was more > water in the pressure tank, so it ran for weeks. The site mentions that > they will be able to predict appliance failure from historical data. And it > can monitor overall PV generation. It looks very promising though from the > reviews it may not yet allow a download of historical data. It would be > great if in addition to logging data, it would allow active management of > interlocking relays to control demand charges. There is another product > called Energy Sentry (http://energysentry.com/ ) , that allows you to > prioritize your large loads so they aren’t allowed to all come on at the > same time. As more utilities add Time of Use and demand charges this will > be a really valuable piece of hardware. For installers this will become > just another value added service. These two companies should merge. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Sunday, December 04, 2016 2:42 AM > *To:* Peter Talmage; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Whole house energy moniters > > > > Peter > > is this system CT based, can you turn around the CT's as when in most > cases installation says to install directional and for solar they get > installed backwards instead. > Jerry > > > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Peter Talmage wrote: > > Does anyone have experience with whole house energy monitors that work > with interfaced PV arrays. It seems most just deal with the array output as > a load . > > > > Thanks. Peter Talmage > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 20:04:29 2016 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:04:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whole house energy moniters In-Reply-To: References: <300485351.5289313.1480811148822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <300485351.5289313.1480811148822@mail.yahoo.com> <020e01d24f00$03c54560$0b4fd020$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Whisker Labs just announced a product that monitors individual loads / sources through digital disaggregation (like Sense) but using a sensor that adheres to the main panel, eliminating the need to remove the deadfront to attached CTs. Pretty crazy. Connectivity is through the existing network. Other CT-based options beyond what's been mentioned include neurio (existing network), the Locus LGate 101e (cellular or existing network), TED (existing network), and the Enphase Envoy-S (which can monitor non-enphase systems and is cellular). There's another product just now coming to the US from Australia called CarbonTrack (cellular). Whole home + PV energy monitoring (CTs), zigbee / z-wave 2-way communications with smarthome devices, communicates with energy storage... basically an energy-focused smarthome hub. Lots going on in this space! - Andrew "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Philip Boutelle wrote: > This product by Sense is similar to CURB (or eGauge > , or other multiple-CT devices), but you install > a single set of CTs on the main feeds (plus on on the solar if you have > it). The device then 'learns the electronic signature' of the loads in the > house to disaggregate what is being used. I haven't tried one yet. > https://sense.com/ > > I have previously installed a beta device from Verdegris, which does the > same thing (single CT set) but is geared for commercial customers, whereas > Sense is residential. > http://verdigris.co/ > > -Phil > > > -- > > *Phil Boutelle,* *PE, CEM* | Energy Engineer > philboutelle at gmail.com | M (831) 359-5268 <%28831%29%20359-5268> > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:01 AM, William Dorsett > wrote: > >> There is a new one mentioned in SolarPro, from a company called CURB >> http://energycurb.com/) . CURB gives CT’s for eighteen different >> circuits so over time you can understand how each load is performing. One >> of our families had a broken pump shaft so it never registered that there >> was more water in the pressure tank, so it ran for weeks. The site mentions >> that they will be able to predict appliance failure from historical data. >> And it can monitor overall PV generation. It looks very promising though >> from the reviews it may not yet allow a download of historical data. It >> would be great if in addition to logging data, it would allow active >> management of interlocking relays to control demand charges. There is >> another product called Energy Sentry (http://energysentry.com/ ) , that >> allows you to prioritize your large loads so they aren’t allowed to all >> come on at the same time. As more utilities add Time of Use and demand >> charges this will be a really valuable piece of hardware. For installers >> this will become just another value added service. These two companies >> should merge. >> >> >> >> Bill Dorsett >> >> Manhattan, KS >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer >> *Sent:* Sunday, December 04, 2016 2:42 AM >> *To:* Peter Talmage; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Whole house energy moniters >> >> >> >> Peter >> >> is this system CT based, can you turn around the CT's as when in most >> cases installation says to install directional and for solar they get >> installed backwards instead. >> Jerry >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Peter Talmage wrote: >> >> Does anyone have experience with whole house energy monitors that work >> with interfaced PV arrays. It seems most just deal with the array output as >> a load . >> >> >> >> Thanks. Peter Talmage >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Dec 7 12:26:28 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 12:26:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Peak Shavine Message-ID: <20161207172644.629E910841@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, A client who we have specified a Sunny Boy-Sunny Island system for wants to know if the system can be set for use in these applications: * Time of Use Metering * Peak Shaving Is it possible to set a SI system to export power only at certain times of the day? * Can a SI sell from batteries? Does the SI system have a generator support feature? If it does, it would seem that it could be set so that If more amps than desired were being drawn from the grid, the batteries could kick in and shave the peak load. Does the Radian do all this? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 9 20:30:32 2016 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:30:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tax credits on expanded arrays? Message-ID: <00b301d25285$3208c810$961a5830$@sbcglobal.net> We have a number of people who were trying to be grandfathered in our old net metering rates by installing systems with a few modules before our hyper-conservative legislature decided to reduce payments for excess generation to the cost of fuel (coal here) and then to double-down by adding the threat of solar tariff. Some of these grandfathered families now want to expand their systems. Under IRS rules, you can only take a 10% tax credit of the cost to improve efficiency of your home one time in your lifetime. Does the same "once in a lifetime" rule apply to the cost of expanding your PV system? Thanks for your thoughts. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS 66502 785/539-1956 Office 785/564-2583 Cell wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 11:39:46 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:39:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches; I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose it could be blown. Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern soft-start one. Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you prefer? Thanks; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 11:53:46 2016 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 11:53:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump large enough for the distance? Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ? Just a thought, Bob Ellison > On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches; > > I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. > > It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose it could be blown. > > Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern soft-start one. > > Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you prefer? > > Thanks; > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 12:11:09 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:11:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> References: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might be a quick and dirty solution. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump > large enough for the distance? > Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / bad > connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ? > > Just a thought, > Bob Ellison > > On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches; > > I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble > with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is > below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. > > It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has > always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation > is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor > would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose > it could be blown. > > Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive > for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, > modern soft-start one. > > Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive > units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you > prefer? > > Thanks; > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 12:34:33 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:34:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: References: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> Message-ID: <558C41F1-C3E6-436D-8A89-079FD3CB4305@gmail.com> What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75? VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start” controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just electrical, may may be resisting start up. Michael > On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might be a quick and dirty solution. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison > wrote: > Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump large enough for the distance? > Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ? > > Just a thought, > Bob Ellison > > On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink > wrote: > >> Esteemed Wrenches; >> >> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. >> >> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose it could be blown. >> >> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern soft-start one. >> >> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you prefer? >> >> Thanks; >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 12:39:30 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: <558C41F1-C3E6-436D-8A89-079FD3CB4305@gmail.com> References: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> <558C41F1-C3E6-436D-8A89-079FD3CB4305@gmail.com> Message-ID: Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in the ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x L-16) and not much abuse. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: > What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75? > > VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start” > controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for > a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just > electrical, may may be resisting start up. > > Michael > > On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks > like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the > usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an > option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might > be a quick and dirty solution. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > >> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump >> large enough for the distance? >> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / >> bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ? >> >> Just a thought, >> Bob Ellison >> >> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >> Esteemed Wrenches; >> >> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble >> with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is >> below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. >> >> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has >> always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation >> is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor >> would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose >> it could be blown. >> >> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive >> for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, >> modern soft-start one. >> >> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive >> units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you >> prefer? >> >> Thanks; >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Dec 10 12:39:44 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 12:39:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: References: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20161210173938.18B34108E7@che.dreamhost.com> The usual wire I see running to most pumps is #10 UF cable. A 450 foot run might create too much voltage drop. Maybe a buck boost transformer would help. Drake At 12:11 PM 12/10/2016, you wrote: >Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, >and the wire size looks like "the usual" for up >here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and >the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. >Running stouter wire might be an option to >consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just >hoping VSD might be a quick and dirty solution. > >Dan Fink >Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >~ PV Installation Professional >~ Small Wind Installer >Executive Director, Buckville Energy >NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >970.672.4342 > > > >On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison ><reellison at gmail.com> wrote: >Don't know about the variable speed but are the >wires feeding the pump large enough for the distance? >Sounds like it might be voltage starved because >of a high resistance / bad connection or a long >wire run and the need for a larger wire ? > >Just a thought, >Bob Ellison > >On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink ><danbob88 at gmail.com> wrote: > >>Esteemed Wrenches; >> >>I have a client in a very remote mountain >>location who is having trouble with his >>inverter starting his well pump when battery >>state of charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. >> >>It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, >>horsepower, or well depth. It has always given >>him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and >>the situation is better, but not ideal yet. I >>don't think adding a hard start capacitor would >>help as there should be one inside the pump >>itself, though I suppose it could be blown. >> >>Because of the distance and the rough road, it >>would be super expensive for a well company to >>come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern soft-start one. >> >>Has anyone here had any experience with >>retrofitting variable speed drive units to an >>unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you prefer? >> >>Thanks; >> >>Dan Fink >>Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>IREC Certified Instructor™ for: --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 13:06:28 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:06:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: <20161210173938.18B34108E7@che.dreamhost.com> References: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> <20161210173938.18B34108E7@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <1E0A6AC8-BF1F-4DDF-B002-48C1C93F81D4@gmail.com> Dan, Have you measured start up current? > On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Drake wrote: > > The usual wire I see running to most pumps is #10 UF cable. A 450 foot run might create too much voltage drop. Maybe a buck boost transformer would help. > > Drake > > At 12:11 PM 12/10/2016, you wrote: >> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might be a quick and dirty solution. >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >>  >> >> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison > wrote: >> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump large enough for the distance? >> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ? >> >> Just a thought, >> Bob Ellison >> >> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink > wrote: >> >>> Esteemed Wrenches; >>> >>> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. >>> >>> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose it could be blown. >>> >>> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern soft-start one. >>> >>> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you prefer? >>> >>> Thanks; >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Dec 10 17:02:40 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 15:02:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: <1E0A6AC8-BF1F-4DDF-B002-48C1C93F81D4@gmail.com> References: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> <20161210173938.18B34108E7@che.dreamhost.com> <1E0A6AC8-BF1F-4DDF-B002-48C1C93F81D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9ae797b7-2685-c39c-f1b9-ea1fcedc7d50@sindelarsolar.com> Dan, I have never had to work with a two-wire pump, so I'm on shaky ground here, but I refer back to what I learned years ago from Windy. The third wire in a three-wire pump carries the starting surge from the capacitor. A two-wire pump lacks this, and thus gets its entire surge-under-load from the AC source. This will be intrinsically difficult for an inverter, as compared to grid. So Shasta's surge question below is relevant. I'd determine both instantaneous surge and voltage drop; it may be that the combination - of battery voltage leading to reduced AC from the Magnum, voltage drop on the wires, and simply using the Magnum - will keep it always problematic. Years ago, when Dankoff Solar Products was in its prime as a distributor, Phil U did a load capacity test on various inverters of the time, including the Magnum MS4024. It had remarkably strong surge capacity, but did this by allowing a much greater voltage drop - down to around 80 VAC, if I recall, on a 120 VAC inverter. You may be dealing with a structural issue, for which upgrading the pump may be the best solution. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 12/10/2016 11:06 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: > Dan, > Have you measured start up current? > >> On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Drake >> > > wrote: >> >> The usual wire I see running to most pumps is #10 UF cable. A 450 >> foot run might create too much voltage drop. Maybe a buck boost >> transformer would help. >> >> Drake >> >> At 12:11 PM 12/10/2016, you wrote: >>> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size >>> looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 >>> feet and the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter >>> wire might be an option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. >>> I'm just hoping VSD might be a quick and dirty solution. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>>  >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison >> > wrote: >>> >>> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding >>> the pump large enough for the distance? >>> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high >>> resistance / bad connection or a long wire run and the need for >>> a larger wire ? >>> >>> Just a thought, >>> Bob Ellison >>> >>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Esteemed Wrenches; >>>> >>>> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is >>>> having trouble with his inverter starting his well pump >>>> when battery state of charge is below 75%. 24v system, >>>> Magnum inverter. >>>> >>>> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well >>>> depth. It has always given him trouble, that's why he >>>> upgraded to 24v, and the situation is better, but not ideal >>>> yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor would help >>>> as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I >>>> suppose it could be blown. >>>> >>>> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be >>>> super expensive for a well company to come up there, pull >>>> the old pump and set a new, modern soft-start one. >>>> >>>> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting >>>> variable speed drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what >>>> models have you tried and what do you prefer? >>>> >>>> Thanks; >>>> >>>> Dan Fink >>>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>>> IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Avast logo >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Dec 10 17:43:38 2016 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 17:43:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are Rolls or  East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be going bad. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in the ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x L-16) and not much abuse. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for:  ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342   On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote: What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75? VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start” controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just electrical,  may may be resisting start up.  Michael On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink wrote: Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might be a quick and dirty solution. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be IREC Certified Instructor™ for:  ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342   On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison wrote: Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump large enough for the distance? Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ? Just a thought, Bob Ellison On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink wrote: Esteemed Wrenches; I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter.  It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose it could be blown. Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern soft-start one. Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you prefer? Thanks;  Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for:  ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [17] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [22] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] Links: ------ [1] mailto:mjmorningstar at gmail.com [2] mailto:danbob88 at gmail.com [3] mailto:reellison at gmail.com [4] mailto:danbob88 at gmail.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [15] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [23] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 18:55:36 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 16:55:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: <9ae797b7-2685-c39c-f1b9-ea1fcedc7d50@sindelarsolar.com> References: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> <20161210173938.18B34108E7@che.dreamhost.com> <1E0A6AC8-BF1F-4DDF-B002-48C1C93F81D4@gmail.com> <9ae797b7-2685-c39c-f1b9-ea1fcedc7d50@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan - my understanding is that with a 2-wire pump, the start capacitor is integrated into the pump housing, underwater. I've never dealt with a 2-wire pump either....my experience has been with start capacitors in 3-wire pumps being located conveniently above ground in the pump control enclosure. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Dan, > I have never had to work with a two-wire pump, so I'm on shaky ground > here, but I refer back to what I learned years ago from Windy. The third > wire in a three-wire pump carries the starting surge from the capacitor. A > two-wire pump lacks this, and thus gets its entire surge-under-load from > the AC source. This will be intrinsically difficult for an inverter, as > compared to grid. So Shasta's surge question below is relevant. I'd > determine both instantaneous surge and voltage drop; it may be that the > combination - of battery voltage leading to reduced AC from the Magnum, > voltage drop on the wires, and simply using the Magnum - will keep it > always problematic. > > Years ago, when Dankoff Solar Products was in its prime as a distributor, > Phil U did a load capacity test on various inverters of the time, including > the Magnum MS4024. It had remarkably strong surge capacity, but did this by > allowing a much greater voltage drop - down to around 80 VAC, if I recall, > on a 120 VAC inverter. > > You may be dealing with a structural issue, for which upgrading the pump > may be the best solution. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 20:22:48 2016 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 17:22:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: References: <195BF1C3-5886-4D1C-9122-C7ADA2C90174@gmail.com> <20161210173938.18B34108E7@che.dreamhost.com> <1E0A6AC8-BF1F-4DDF-B002-48C1C93F81D4@gmail.com> <9ae797b7-2685-c39c-f1b9-ea1fcedc7d50@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <31F8E31E-5B70-4DEA-924E-4507F4E711E3@gmail.com> Some two-wire pumps have integral start capacitors and others, Franklin and Gould comes to mind, do not. I’d be looking at start up current duration. If by chance the pump motor is without a capacitor and the current remains high for more than a second or two, it’s most likely structural as Allan has suggested. Unfortunately this thing will probable need pulling. Michael > On Dec 10, 2016, at 3:55 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Allan - my understanding is that with a 2-wire pump, the start capacitor is integrated into the pump housing, underwater. I've never dealt with a 2-wire pump either....my experience has been with start capacitors in 3-wire pumps being located conveniently above ground in the pump control enclosure. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > Dan, > I have never had to work with a two-wire pump, so I'm on shaky ground here, but I refer back to what I learned years ago from Windy. The third wire in a three-wire pump carries the starting surge from the capacitor. A two-wire pump lacks this, and thus gets its entire surge-under-load from the AC source. This will be intrinsically difficult for an inverter, as compared to grid. So Shasta's surge question below is relevant. I'd determine both instantaneous surge and voltage drop; it may be that the combination - of battery voltage leading to reduced AC from the Magnum, voltage drop on the wires, and simply using the Magnum - will keep it always problematic. > > Years ago, when Dankoff Solar Products was in its prime as a distributor, Phil U did a load capacity test on various inverters of the time, including the Magnum MS4024. It had remarkably strong surge capacity, but did this by allowing a much greater voltage drop - down to around 80 VAC, if I recall, on a 120 VAC inverter. > > You may be dealing with a structural issue, for which upgrading the pump may be the best solution. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Dec 11 03:39:40 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:39:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Dan; If this just problem just started, I'm with Drake, you could have a=20 premature cell failure. I also agree with Allan, 2 wire pumps are=20 certainly problematic on inverters. Many well service folks don't even=20 install them because they don't last near as long as 3 wire pumps, so=20 your customer may end up needing to replace the pump soon anyway. We've used the Franklin Sub Drive with a 1.5 Hp Pump that would start on=20 an SW 4024, but not on an Outback VFX3524. Worked well, no call backs. =20 I'm not sure if they will work with a 2 wire pump though. Before you take that long trip, have the customer check individual=20 battery voltages while the pump is running. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 12/10/2016 3:43 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are=20 > Rolls or East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be going=20 > bad. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? > > > Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's > in the ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it > (8 x L-16) and not much abuse. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor=E2=84=A2 for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers=E2=84=A2 > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku > > wrote: > > What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75? > > VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase =E2=80= =9Csoft > start=E2=80=9D controllers for pumps and motors designed for that > application, but not for a two wire fed submersible pump. The > pump, for mechanical reasons, not just electrical, may may be > resisting start up. > > Michael > > On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink > wrote: > > Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the > wire size looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, > it's only about 100 feet and the usual well depth around > here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an option to > consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping > VSD might be a quick and dirty solution. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch > Institute be > IREC Certified Instructor=E2=84=A2 for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers=E2=84=A2 > 970.672.4342 > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison > > wrote: > > Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires > feeding the pump large enough for the distance? > Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a > high resistance / bad connection or a long wire run > and the need for a larger wire ? > > Just a thought, > Bob Ellison > > On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink > > wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches; > > I have a client in a very remote mountain location > who is having trouble with his inverter starting > his well pump when battery state of charge is > below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. > > It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, > horsepower, or well depth. It has always given him > trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the > situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't > think adding a hard start capacitor would help as > there should be one inside the pump itself, though > I suppose it could be blown. > > Because of the distance and the rough road, it > would be super expensive for a well company to > come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, > modern soft-start one. > > Has anyone here had any experience with > retrofitting variable speed drive units to an > unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried > and what do you prefer? > > Thanks; > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, > Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor=E2=84=A2 for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers=E2= =84=A2 > 970.672.4342 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-= re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wren= ches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-w= renches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches= .org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenc= hes.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org= /maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.= org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mai= llist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 11:40:36 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 09:40:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the advice, everyone! The problem has been ongoing since the system was first installed, it didn't just crop up. I have checked the battery bank (8x L-16) under load with a thermal imager and voltmeter and refractometer, no issues with cell voltage, SG or bad connections. I'll be looking into the Franklin Sub Drive and will report back as far as 2-wire. Everything here seems to me to be pointing towards an antiquated 2-wire well pump with the internal hard start cap possibly blown, or the rotor sticky with sediment. It'll be a hard sell to get a new well pump set....but when we started talking auto gen start for a boost, an old honda 6500kw (that runs the well pump fine) that doesn't have a remote start port for the Magnum AGS (Honda piggyback wiring harness nightmare I'd have to homebrew), I went into "won't touch that with a 10-foot pole" mode....and the local Honda shop said I'd be nuts to attempt it. Thanks again, all -- I'll report back. The system is no longer accessible, this'll be a springtime project. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hey Dan; > > If this just problem just started, I'm with Drake, you could have a > premature cell failure. I also agree with Allan, 2 wire pumps are > certainly problematic on inverters. Many well service folks don't even > install them because they don't last near as long as 3 wire pumps, so your > customer may end up needing to replace the pump soon anyway. > We've used the Franklin Sub Drive with a 1.5 Hp Pump that would start on > an SW 4024, but not on an Outback VFX3524. Worked well, no call backs. > I'm not sure if they will work with a 2 wire pump though. > Before you take that long trip, have the customer check individual battery > voltages while the pump is running. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> > > On 12/10/2016 3:43 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are > Rolls or East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be going bad. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > > Cc: > > Sent: > Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? > > > Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in the > ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x L-16) and > not much abuse. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku > wrote: > >> What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75? >> >> VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start” >> controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for >> a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just >> electrical, may may be resisting start up. >> >> Michael >> >> On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks >> like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the >> usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an >> option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might >> be a quick and dirty solution. >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison wrote: >> >>> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump >>> large enough for the distance? >>> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / >>> bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ? >>> >>> Just a thought, >>> Bob Ellison >>> >>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> >>> Esteemed Wrenches; >>> >>> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble >>> with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is >>> below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. >>> >>> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It >>> has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the >>> situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start >>> capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though >>> I suppose it could be blown. >>> >>> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive >>> for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, >>> modern soft-start one. >>> >>> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed >>> drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what >>> do you prefer? >>> >>> Thanks; >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 12:17:51 2016 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 10:17:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 3-wire only for the Franklin MonoDrive. Darn! The Gould version works with with 2-wire...but only at 240vac. Oh well, after my client chokes down the well company bill next spring, I'll have a lovely, scenic 4WD trip up the mountain, do 30 minutes worth of wiring, be the hero, and never have to hassle with the problem again. Thanks again, all. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 9:40 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > Thanks for the advice, everyone! The problem has been ongoing since the > system was first installed, it didn't just crop up. I have checked the > battery bank (8x L-16) under load with a thermal imager and voltmeter and > refractometer, no issues with cell voltage, SG or bad connections. I'll be > looking into the Franklin Sub Drive and will report back as far as 2-wire. > > Everything here seems to me to be pointing towards an antiquated 2-wire > well pump with the internal hard start cap possibly blown, or the rotor > sticky with sediment. It'll be a hard sell to get a new well pump > set....but when we started talking auto gen start for a boost, an old honda > 6500kw (that runs the well pump fine) that doesn't have a remote start port > for the Magnum AGS (Honda piggyback wiring harness nightmare I'd have to > homebrew), I went into "won't touch that with a 10-foot pole" mode....and > the local Honda shop said I'd be nuts to attempt it. > > Thanks again, all -- I'll report back. The system is no longer accessible, > this'll be a springtime project. > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > >> Hey Dan; >> >> If this just problem just started, I'm with Drake, you could have a >> premature cell failure. I also agree with Allan, 2 wire pumps are >> certainly problematic on inverters. Many well service folks don't even >> install them because they don't last near as long as 3 wire pumps, so your >> customer may end up needing to replace the pump soon anyway. >> We've used the Franklin Sub Drive with a 1.5 Hp Pump that would start on >> an SW 4024, but not on an Outback VFX3524. Worked well, no call backs. >> I'm not sure if they will work with a 2 wire pump though. >> Before you take that long trip, have the customer check individual >> battery voltages while the pump is running. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> >> >> On 12/10/2016 3:43 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are >> Rolls or East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be going bad. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> "RE-wrenches" >> >> >> To: >> "RE-wrenches" >> >> Cc: >> >> Sent: >> Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700 >> Subject: >> Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? >> >> >> Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in the >> ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x L-16) and >> not much abuse. >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku >> wrote: >> >>> What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75? >>> >>> VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start” >>> controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for >>> a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just >>> electrical, may may be resisting start up. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks >>> like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the >>> usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an >>> option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might >>> be a quick and dirty solution. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison wrote: >>> >>>> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump >>>> large enough for the distance? >>>> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / >>>> bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ? >>>> >>>> Just a thought, >>>> Bob Ellison >>>> >>>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >>>> >>>> Esteemed Wrenches; >>>> >>>> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having >>>> trouble with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of >>>> charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. >>>> >>>> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It >>>> has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the >>>> situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start >>>> capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though >>>> I suppose it could be blown. >>>> >>>> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive >>>> for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, >>>> modern soft-start one. >>>> >>>> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed >>>> drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what >>>> do you prefer? >>>> >>>> Thanks; >>>> >>>> Dan Fink >>>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>>> 970.672.4342 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Sun Dec 11 17:40:27 2016 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 17:40:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Variable Speed old AC Pumps Message-ID: <2316B9D9-22C0-4487-A9AB-58E7A1D1FB8C@ecs-solar.com> You might try a capacitor for an old AC pump but I do not ever suggest making it variable speed as AC pumps have a locked rotor amps start that is sometimes much greater than the LRA listed especially as they get older and AC pumps normally will not start without full power AND ONLY AFTER THEY ARE STARTED CAN THE SPEED BE VARIABLE AS THEY VARY DOWN IN VOLTAGE BUT THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA . TRUE NEW MODERN AC VARIABLE SPEED PUMPS CHANGE AC TO DC POWER AND THEN VARY THE SPEED UP AND DOWN . THE SOLAR WOLF F Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 14:15:52 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 14:15:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan, I have had 3 customers with similar issues with the well pump. All three were Magnum 4024's. In all cases I switched to dual Outback VFX's or a Radian and upgraded two of them to 48V but one is still 24V with 2 FX's and that one still had a problem when hooked up with with one Outback and a transformer. Problems went away with two inverters. The magnum just doesn't do well with high load situations. I only use the Magnum when it is a small hp pump or soft start and low additional house loads. I also saw this problem with a dual VFX running 120 VAC only., the 2nd inverter kicking on for battery charging or when big loads hit. Saw this work very nicely with the 2nd inverter instantly kicking on when needed. But when one of his inverters needed a new control board, I programmed the slave L1 to be master to keep him going til I got the control board on the old Master,, and we saw the same problem with the well pump with serious voltage sag and even overload shutdown. We then knew that second inverter was definitely needed. The fact that the pump works fine on the generator is a big clue. I have also had locked rotor problems. One time, on a grid tie with backup, the pump totally locked up. Since we had the grid, I decided to hook it up directly to the grid, even bipassing the input relay in the inverter and the transformer. The pump started and lots of sand came out with the drain water. Too bad some of this had already gone into the hot water heater tank. I hooked up a direct drain hose to outside and ran the pump for at least 15 minutes before it started to clear. Ran for several hours to be sure the well was cleaned out. All the things us solar guys get involved with. John Blittersdorf now with Rob Stubbins Solar On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > 3-wire only for the Franklin MonoDrive. Darn! The Gould version works with > with 2-wire...but only at 240vac. Oh well, after my client chokes down the > well company bill next spring, I'll have a lovely, scenic 4WD trip up the > mountain, do 30 minutes worth of wiring, be the hero, and never have to > hassle with the problem again. > Thanks again, all. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 9:40 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > >> Thanks for the advice, everyone! The problem has been ongoing since the >> system was first installed, it didn't just crop up. I have checked the >> battery bank (8x L-16) under load with a thermal imager and voltmeter and >> refractometer, no issues with cell voltage, SG or bad connections. I'll be >> looking into the Franklin Sub Drive and will report back as far as 2-wire. >> >> Everything here seems to me to be pointing towards an antiquated 2-wire >> well pump with the internal hard start cap possibly blown, or the rotor >> sticky with sediment. It'll be a hard sell to get a new well pump >> set....but when we started talking auto gen start for a boost, an old honda >> 6500kw (that runs the well pump fine) that doesn't have a remote start port >> for the Magnum AGS (Honda piggyback wiring harness nightmare I'd have to >> homebrew), I went into "won't touch that with a 10-foot pole" mode....and >> the local Honda shop said I'd be nuts to attempt it. >> >> Thanks again, all -- I'll report back. The system is no longer >> accessible, this'll be a springtime project. >> >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >>> Hey Dan; >>> >>> If this just problem just started, I'm with Drake, you could have a >>> premature cell failure. I also agree with Allan, 2 wire pumps are >>> certainly problematic on inverters. Many well service folks don't even >>> install them because they don't last near as long as 3 wire pumps, so your >>> customer may end up needing to replace the pump soon anyway. >>> We've used the Franklin Sub Drive with a 1.5 Hp Pump that would start on >>> an SW 4024, but not on an Outback VFX3524. Worked well, no call backs. >>> I'm not sure if they will work with a 2 wire pump though. >>> Before you take that long trip, have the customer check individual >>> battery voltages while the pump is running. >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> >>> >>> On 12/10/2016 3:43 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>> >>> Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are >>> Rolls or East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be going bad. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> "RE-wrenches" >>> >>> >>> To: >>> "RE-wrenches" >>> >>> Cc: >>> >>> Sent: >>> Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700 >>> Subject: >>> Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? >>> >>> >>> Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in the >>> ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x L-16) and >>> not much abuse. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku >>> wrote: >>> >>>> What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75? >>>> >>>> VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start” >>>> controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for >>>> a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just >>>> electrical, may may be resisting start up. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size >>>> looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet >>>> and the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might >>>> be an option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD >>>> might be a quick and dirty solution. >>>> >>>> Dan Fink >>>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be >>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>>> 970.672.4342 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump >>>>> large enough for the distance? >>>>> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / >>>>> bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ? >>>>> >>>>> Just a thought, >>>>> Bob Ellison >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed Wrenches; >>>>> >>>>> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having >>>>> trouble with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of >>>>> charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. >>>>> >>>>> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It >>>>> has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the >>>>> situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start >>>>> capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though >>>>> I suppose it could be blown. >>>>> >>>>> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super >>>>> expensive for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a >>>>> new, modern soft-start one. >>>>> >>>>> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed >>>>> drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what >>>>> do you prefer? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks; >>>>> >>>>> Dan Fink >>>>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>>>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>>>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>>>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>>>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>>>> 970.672.4342 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Tue Dec 13 15:39:27 2016 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 13:39:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Dan! A 2-wire pump does not have a built-in capacitor. It has NO capacitor. Starting any single-phase induction motor is like a one legged bicyclist. Without a start winding and capacitor (and a device to switch it out), it’s a LAME one-legged bicyclist. Only marketed for those who must have the cheapest option (on grid power). Now, you CAN use Franklin MonoDrive with a 3-wire single-phase pump, but that is (in my understanding) far inferior to a true variable-speed drive combined with a 3-phase pump. I imagine the only reason they make a single-phase version is to retrofit existing 1-ph 3-wire pumps, and that’s fine … BUT if replacing the WHOLE pump, why not do it right and go 3-phase. A 3-ph motor requires no special starting circuit, so it’s much simpler and in general, it’s cheaper than a 1-ph cap-start motor! Also, I expect the electronics for V speed would be cheaper. So ... I strongly suggest you get a quote on the Franklin 3-ph SubDrive system. It will draw a gentle starting rise of maybe 2X … not really a surge at all. It can work in either soft-start full-speed mode, to work like any conventional pressure pump, or as a “constant pressure” pump. The latter will rack up many hours running at reduced speed which is also reduced pumping efficiency. It’s intended for using with tiny pressure tanks, but not so energy-efficient. I’d recommend keeping the full-size normal p tank, and using full-speed mode. Incidentally, 3-ph variable speed drive is at the heart of solar pump controllers made for conventional pumps. And those items are for non-battery systems! They are only made for 3-ph motors. Nobody makes one for 1-ph. even though there would be high demand. Above 2HP, all AC subs are 3ph. Solar controllers are handling them PV-direct approaching 100 kW now! I’ve been researching this whole topic for my book (Solar Water Pumping, Taylor & Francis for 2017) and I think it’s the best advice for your customer. Any of you other guys have experience with VS 3-ph and constant pressure pumps? Please tell me what you end up recommending, and how it works out! RE John B’s previous comment: "All the things us solar guys get involved with ...” All I can say is: Somebody’s got to do it. Windy or in my case: Somebody’s got to write about it! http://www.windydankoff.com From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 13 20:39:08 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:39:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect Message-ID: <15c6d70b0430f0747fe754378b3aa1f2@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am taking a poll to see if any of you have noticed the change in the SMA 40 series DC disconnect as compared to earlier series inverters and how it may be affecting your installations. The DC disconnect is no longer in the lower, connection box area, but in the electronics area. This means it will not de-energize the DC connections. Certain jurisdictions will not allow us to install this unit without an external disconnect. The service manual addresses the subject. The Remote Shutdown Box unit may provide a means to de-energize PV sources, but in a webinar today SMA claims it does not meet code, possibly in regards to lock-out capability. It actually looked viable to me, but that is not based on any research. Soon all or most building mounted PV arrays will require Rapid Shutdown. This will add hundreds of dollars to the cost of an install, but safety is safety. What may sting is adding $400-500 of RS equipment to a carport or ground mount where it may not otherwise be required. SMA has concurred that the issue bears further discussion and I should hear back from them soon. In the meantime, I thought it might be useful to all parties to see how much impact this change in design is having to other installers. Thanks in advance for any input. I will report back on what I learn. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 13 21:00:54 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:00:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate3 programming issues Message-ID: Friends: I apologize for not reporting in sooner. As most of you remember, we have seen a few Outback systems with Mate3 controllers experience apparent self-reprogramming. I experienced it and several others reported on it. Many have requested updates, on-line and off. I have discussed this at length with a couple Outback employees. We have reached no definite conclusions but we do have a theory: About 2 weeks prior to this failure, I had a Mate3 fail. There are two in this system and of course the more important of the two failed. I swapped the less critical Mate3 for the failed unit. We stored the configuration of the failed unit onto the SD card and applied that programming to the replacement unit. We spot checked a few settings and assumed the programming was good. It is possible that corruption occurred during this process. The system ran fine for about 2 weeks and then failed. The failure mode was that 4 of the 8 inverters became Masters. The site is, of course, a long ways from my shop. On my last visit I copied the data from the card I thought was pertinent, but I find that to be conclusive, I need the data from the other SD card. Once I retrieve that data, I can hopefully prove or disprove this theory. I will keep you posted. There are a couple of Outback employees that are taking this seriously, and I am most grateful to them. In reading between the lines, it appears to me that they don’t have a lot of support from management to pursue problems like this. It was never said directly, so I apologize if I misunderstood. However, if this problem is causing more than one or two of us consternation and inconvenience, we need to be vocal with Outback wo they can dedicate resources. I don’t fault Outback, we all have to set priorities. As consumers, we need to request higher priorities to issues if they are causing serious problems. There is also other issues: “partially disconnected” systems, gaps in the data and connection reliability issues.. The partial issue cropped up recently. There is a new firmware that supposedly deals with these issues. Check It out. I was told that since Optics was a free service, there was limited responsibility from Outback for reliability. I can’t agree with this point. We spent a lot of money on communications infrastructure and pay monthly for internet to use this service. I think Outback released the Optics system a wee bit prematurely. The pace of firmware upgrades confirms this. I respect Outback people and the product line, but I think expectations might have been more realistic if Optics had been deemed a “beta” release when it first came out. The value and promise of the system is obvious and I will hang in there with Outback and help any way I can to make the product better. One way I can help is remain optimistic that these problems will be solved. More soon. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Dec 14 10:20:44 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:20:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment for rapid shutdown NEC 690.12 In-Reply-To: <15c6d70b0430f0747fe754378b3aa1f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <15c6d70b0430f0747fe754378b3aa1f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98494caba1cef4316a511646e518446f@mail.gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, We are adopting the 2014 NEC in just a few weeks and will be installing NEC 690.12 rapid shutdown compliant systems for all permits pulled on or after Jan 1 2017. I thought I’d take a quick poll to see what equipment you are all planning on using to comply with rapid shutdown for your residential systems. Some of you are operating in states where you’ve been rapid shutdown for the last couple of years so you might have valuable insight as well. We have historically had the best reliability results with string inverters and have tried to continue to use them. However, multiple forces are drawing us towards microinverter systems (or AC modules) and optimized systems like SolarEdge. For one, our sales reps and designers prefer the design freedom that these types of systems offer. The module level monitoring is also a big plus. Secondly, we are installing a lot of SunPower Equinox AC module systems and the install times are smokin’ fast. Lastly, these systems are rapid shutdown compliant with little or no additional effort. I really like SMA inverters but their rapid shutdown solution seems clunky, especially when paired with their new US-40 series inverters which have three trackers. The rapid shutdown box only has two separate tracker capability so we would need to install two rapid shutdown boxes to make use of the three trackers. Other string inverter options like Fronius might be a little easier to design around. So, for now we are offering SunPower’s Equinox AC system and SolarEdge for an alternative. I like many aspects of Enphase’s microinverter system but still feel gun-shy because of all the failures we’ve had. Maybe their newer generation products have solved their reliability problems. What are you all using? Best, August Luminalt San Francisco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Wed Dec 14 10:51:09 2016 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 10:51:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment for rapid shutdown NEC 690.12 In-Reply-To: <98494caba1cef4316a511646e518446f@mail.gmail.com> References: <15c6d70b0430f0747fe754378b3aa1f2@mail.gmail.com> <98494caba1cef4316a511646e518446f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: August, Great question. Canadian Solar makes a module with SolarEdge optimizers integral. Trina offers a similar product with Tigos integral. I think both products would allow the string architecture you like while incorporating rapid shutdown. I have found these solutions to be less expensive than microinverters for systems over 4 kW though not necessarily less expensive than standard modules, strings inverters, and rapid disconnect enclosures. We have been trying to specify these module-integral products. Curious to hear how others are proceeding. Matt On Wed, December 14, 2016 10:20 am, August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > > > > We are adopting the 2014 NEC in just a few weeks and will be installing > NEC > 690.12 rapid shutdown compliant systems for all permits pulled on or after > Jan 1 2017. I thought I’d take a quick poll to see what equipment you > are all planning on using to comply with rapid shutdown for your > residential systems. Some of you are operating in states where you’ve been > rapid shutdown for the last couple of years so you might have valuable > insight as well. > > > > We have historically had the best reliability results with string > inverters and have tried to continue to use them. However, multiple forces > are drawing us towards microinverter systems (or AC modules) and optimized > systems like SolarEdge. For one, our sales reps and designers prefer the > design freedom that these types of systems offer. The module level > monitoring is also a big plus. Secondly, we are installing a lot of > SunPower Equinox AC module systems and the install times are smokin’ > fast. Lastly, these systems are rapid shutdown compliant with little or no > additional effort. > > > > I really like SMA inverters but their rapid shutdown solution seems > clunky, especially when paired with their new US-40 series inverters which > have three trackers. The rapid shutdown box only has two separate tracker > capability so we would need to install two rapid shutdown boxes to make > use of the three trackers. Other string inverter options like Fronius > might be a little easier to design around. > > > > So, for now we are offering SunPower’s Equinox AC system and SolarEdge > for an alternative. I like many aspects of Enphase’s microinverter system > but still feel gun-shy because of all the failures we’ve had. Maybe their > newer generation products have solved their reliability problems. > > > > What are you all using? > > > > > Best, > > > > > August > > > Luminalt > > > San Francisco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 14 10:39:56 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:39:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect In-Reply-To: <15c6d70b0430f0747fe754378b3aa1f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <15c6d70b0430f0747fe754378b3aa1f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004301d25620$5360f110$fa22d330$@sbcglobal.net> William, I’m not sure you meant to imply this, but carports and groundmounts do not need any RS equipment unless you were to bring the dc conductors into a building, which would not be smart. The 2017 NEC allows connectors to be used as isolation devices for equipment as long as the circuit current is below 30 amps, which it always is on individual strings. I realize California will not be on the 2017 for 3 years, but it will make installations cheaper, not more expensive. Electronics are destined to become a bigger part of PV arrays in the future—and not just because of rapid shutdown requirements. It just makes sense in building applications for many reasons. The keys will be cost and reliability. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect Friends: I am taking a poll to see if any of you have noticed the change in the SMA 40 series DC disconnect as compared to earlier series inverters and how it may be affecting your installations. The DC disconnect is no longer in the lower, connection box area, but in the electronics area. This means it will not de-energize the DC connections. Certain jurisdictions will not allow us to install this unit without an external disconnect. The service manual addresses the subject. The Remote Shutdown Box unit may provide a means to de-energize PV sources, but in a webinar today SMA claims it does not meet code, possibly in regards to lock-out capability. It actually looked viable to me, but that is not based on any research. Soon all or most building mounted PV arrays will require Rapid Shutdown. This will add hundreds of dollars to the cost of an install, but safety is safety. What may sting is adding $400-500 of RS equipment to a carport or ground mount where it may not otherwise be required. SMA has concurred that the issue bears further discussion and I should hear back from them soon. In the meantime, I thought it might be useful to all parties to see how much impact this change in design is having to other installers. Thanks in advance for any input. I will report back on what I learn. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Dec 14 13:44:30 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 10:44:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 40 series DC disconnect Message-ID: Bill: That is exactly my point. Carports and ground-mounts do not need RS, but any system requires safe means to disconnect DC. So how do you accomplish this with the 40 series? Sure, using the DC connector is one way to disconnect the DC input to the 40 series electronics. However, the service manual cautions against this. Below is the verbatim text from the manual. >From SMA Document SB30-77-1SP-US-40-AT-PU-SG-xx-11 Service Manual: • If an external DC disconnecting switch is available, open the external DC disconnecting switch. • If there is no external DC disconnecting switch, cover the PV modules with opaque material (e.g. foil). • Ensure that there is no voltage on the DC conductors of the PV array. • Wait five minutes before working on the inverter. • Leave the *DC-in *connecting terminal plate plugged into the Connection Unit and only touch it on the black enclosure. I was told that the term ‘foil’ is a poor translation from German, and likely means a tarp. In any event, this verbiage is quite unfortunate as it precludes using the connector as a disconnect. I wonder if there is some criteria on what kind of connectors can be used as a disconnecting means and which cannot. I am sure it has something to do with ‘touch-safe’ requirements. The DC connector in the 40 series may not meet this criteria. The external leads could possibly come free of the connector body as they are just insert-connected. I would be very reticent to send out a technician to work on one of these without some serious consideration of the implications. SMA seems like they are interested in this conundrum and I am withholding judgement pending receiving a response from them. I just thought it very curious that they moved the location of the disconnect in the DC power flow scheme. Seems to me like a fundamental change that flew under the radar. See below for a rendering of the change in DC power flow: Formerly: PV------àIntegrated Disconnect----àchassis separation 40 Series: PV ----àchassis separation------àIntegrated Disconnect William PS: I remember wasting an entire afternoon in a conference room in San Diego arguing with Fronius about the same concept. They too insisted that to service the IG series inverter one had to just tarp the modules. Let us please put that myth to rest once and for all: Tarping modules is not viable. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net *Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:40 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect William, I’m not sure you meant to imply this, but carports and ground mounts do not need any RS equipment unless you were to bring the dc conductors into a building, which would not be smart. The 2017 NEC allows connectors to be used as isolation devices for equipment as long as the circuit current is below 30 amps, which it always is on individual strings. I realize California will not be on the 2017 for 3 years, but it will make installations cheaper, not more expensive. Electronics are destined to become a bigger part of PV arrays in the future—and not just because of rapid shutdown requirements. It just makes sense in building applications for many reasons. The keys will be cost and reliability. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:39 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect Friends: I am taking a poll to see if any of you have noticed the change in the SMA 40 series DC disconnect as compared to earlier series inverters and how it may be affecting your installations. The DC disconnect is no longer in the lower, connection box area, but in the electronics area. This means it will not de-energize the DC connections. Certain jurisdictions will not allow us to install this unit without an external disconnect. The service manual addresses the subject. The Remote Shutdown Box unit may provide a means to de-energize PV sources, but in a webinar today SMA claims it does not meet code, possibly in regards to lock-out capability. It actually looked viable to me, but that is not based on any research. Soon all or most building mounted PV arrays will require Rapid Shutdown. This will add hundreds of dollars to the cost of an install, but safety is safety. What may sting is adding $400-500 of RS equipment to a carport or ground mount where it may not otherwise be required. SMA has concurred that the issue bears further discussion and I should hear back from them soon. In the meantime, I thought it might be useful to all parties to see how much impact this change in design is having to other installers. Thanks in advance for any input. I will report back on what I learn. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 12:10:24 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 09:10:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment for rapid shutdown NEC 690.12 In-Reply-To: References: <15c6d70b0430f0747fe754378b3aa1f2@mail.gmail.com> <98494caba1cef4316a511646e518446f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Matt, How does UL deal with fixing this? I seem to remember that on AC modules ( not sure what you call a SE/integrated module) that you had to replace the inverter/module as a unit. Hopefully thats no longer the case. jay peltz power > On Dec 14, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > > August, > > Great question. > > Canadian Solar makes a module with SolarEdge optimizers integral. Trina > offers a similar product with Tigos integral. I think both products would > allow the string architecture you like while incorporating rapid shutdown. > I have found these solutions to be less expensive than microinverters for > systems over 4 kW though not necessarily less expensive than standard > modules, strings inverters, and rapid disconnect enclosures. We have been > trying to specify these module-integral products. > > Curious to hear how others are proceeding. > > Matt > > > > From solarworks at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 15:17:49 2016 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:17:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sma -40 monitoring and tech support Message-ID: Friends! We have been installing the SMA-40 inverters lately. We like the physical layout of the inverters. They have built in wifi capabilities. On paper this sounds good. In practice this part of the inverters have been working like crap. We have multiple sites that are experiencing on going connectivity issues even with excellent wifi signals. We have upgraded to the latest firmware 3 times in the last 3 weeks for inverters manufactured in late October. Clearly they see they have issues, due to the frequency of firmware updates. Even the latest firmware is proving useless. Anyone else having trouble with these inverters? We feel like we are their experimentation lab and doing their R&D on our dime. Their tech support is minimum an hour wait on hold. We have spent more time trying to resolve the communications issues than the actual installation of the whole solar system took, not just the inverters. In fact I am typing this email as I am on hold. Any one else having issues with this part of the inverters? Advice on how to deal with SMA or resolve the issues with out resorting to their useless tech support? Thanks! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Dec 14 15:23:32 2016 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:23:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sma -40 monitoring and tech support References: Message-ID: <7C0CD16930B147E7BB21CD67F3290CA0@PeterPC> Kirpal So glad to see you are not sugar coating it. New tech always means new challenges. There is always Fr-----. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirpal Khalsa To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 3:17 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] sma -40 monitoring and tech support Friends! We have been installing the SMA-40 inverters lately. We like the physical layout of the inverters. They have built in wifi capabilities. On paper this sounds good. In practice this part of the inverters have been working like crap. We have multiple sites that are experiencing on going connectivity issues even with excellent wifi signals. We have upgraded to the latest firmware 3 times in the last 3 weeks for inverters manufactured in late October. Clearly they see they have issues, due to the frequency of firmware updates. Even the latest firmware is proving useless. Anyone else having trouble with these inverters? We feel like we are their experimentation lab and doing their R&D on our dime. Their tech support is minimum an hour wait on hold. We have spent more time trying to resolve the communications issues than the actual installation of the whole solar system took, not just the inverters. In fact I am typing this email as I am on hold. Any one else having issues with this part of the inverters? Advice on how to deal with SMA or resolve the issues with out resorting to their useless tech support? Thanks! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Dec 14 16:37:53 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:37:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lua Message-ID: <73670c2dbd4ce050855edc2ebc18d1a1@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I need to write some scripts in Lua for a Control-By-Web X600 controller. I am wondering if anyone out there might be willing to answer an occasional question, off-line. I would be extremely grateful. Please contact me off-line. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windsine at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 17:19:55 2016 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 16:19:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello William, Its very frustrating to deal with this sort of thing. I have been running a Mate3 with Optics and I have to say, Its gotten a lot better than it was in the beginning! (however, there are still a few bugs, specifically with 3.015.003. I have been running 3.015.001 and its been mostly solid (with the exception of small one or two hour windows of data that go missing. This doesnt always happen, but every once in a while it does. When I ran 3.015.000 (If I recall) That is when I had exactly what you described: Upon plugging in (to reboot) Mate3, it would remove stacking parameters and make multiple inverters Master. Ive seen it happen on my home system. Upgrading to 3.015.001 seems to have fixed that issue for me. If you have your doubts about what firmware you should be running, I would check out the Outback user forum, members seem pretty fast to make a stink about new bugs and issues found. Good luck RoyR Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:00 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I apologize for not reporting in sooner. As most of you remember, we have > seen a few Outback systems with Mate3 controllers experience apparent > self-reprogramming. I experienced it and several others reported on it. > Many have requested updates, on-line and off. > > > > I have discussed this at length with a couple Outback employees. We have > reached no definite conclusions but we do have a theory: About 2 weeks > prior to this failure, I had a Mate3 fail. There are two in this system > and of course the more important of the two failed. > > > > I swapped the less critical Mate3 for the failed unit. We stored the > configuration of the failed unit onto the SD card and applied that > programming to the replacement unit. We spot checked a few settings and > assumed the programming was good. It is possible that corruption occurred > during this process. The system ran fine for about 2 weeks and then > failed. The failure mode was that 4 of the 8 inverters became Masters. > > > > The site is, of course, a long ways from my shop. On my last visit I > copied the data from the card I thought was pertinent, but I find that to > be conclusive, I need the data from the other SD card. Once I retrieve > that data, I can hopefully prove or disprove this theory. I will keep you > posted. > > > > There are a couple of Outback employees that are taking this seriously, > and I am most grateful to them. In reading between the lines, it appears > to me that they don’t have a lot of support from management to pursue > problems like this. It was never said directly, so I apologize if I > misunderstood. However, if this problem is causing more than one or two of > us consternation and inconvenience, we need to be vocal with Outback wo > they can dedicate resources. I don’t fault Outback, we all have to set > priorities. As consumers, we need to request higher priorities to issues > if they are causing serious problems. > > > > There is also other issues: “partially disconnected” systems, gaps in the > data and connection reliability issues.. The partial issue cropped up > recently. There is a new firmware that supposedly deals with these > issues. Check It out. > > > > I was told that since Optics was a free service, there was limited > responsibility from Outback for reliability. I can’t agree with this > point. We spent a lot of money on communications infrastructure and pay > monthly for internet to use this service. I think Outback released the > Optics system a wee bit prematurely. The pace of firmware upgrades > confirms this. I respect Outback people and the product line, but I think > expectations might have been more realistic if Optics had been deemed a > “beta” release when it first came out. The value and promise of the system > is obvious and I will hang in there with Outback and help any way I can to > make the product better. One way I can help is remain optimistic that > these problems will be solved. > > > > More soon. > > > > William > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Wed Dec 14 17:25:14 2016 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:25:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? // Franklin products In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D1799C3-0E41-47EE-AB07-D94EB1708F5B@mac.com> Dan, I stand corrected on my advice. This Franklin document describes a MonoDrive 2W model. 2W stands for 2-wire pump! I didn’t know it existed. http://franklinwater.com/media/116400/225417101_m1560_sd_manual_05-13_web.pdf Nevertheless, I would expect inferior results and would not use it to retrofit an old 2-wire pump if it may be on its last legs. However, it IS what you are asking for, to replacing the pump! It’s up to you to determine if it’s the BEST option in the short and long run. I would run this by a very knowlegable Franklin distributor, as well as your local driller. Keep Shining // Windy > On Dec 13, 2016, at 1:39 PM, Windy Dankoff wrote: > > Hey Dan! > > A 2-wire pump does not have a built-in capacitor. It has NO capacitor. Starting any single-phase induction motor is like a one legged bicyclist. Without a start winding and capacitor (and a device to switch it out), it’s a LAME one-legged bicyclist. Only marketed for those who must have the cheapest option (on grid power). > > Now, you CAN use Franklin MonoDrive with a 3-wire single-phase pump, but that is (in my understanding) far inferior to a true variable-speed drive combined with a 3-phase pump. I imagine the only reason they make a single-phase version is to retrofit existing 1-ph 3-wire pumps, and that’s fine … BUT if replacing the WHOLE pump, why not do it right and go 3-phase. A 3-ph motor requires no special starting circuit, so it’s much simpler and in general, it’s cheaper than a 1-ph cap-start motor! Also, I expect the electronics for V speed would be cheaper. So ... > > I strongly suggest you get a quote on the Franklin 3-ph SubDrive system. It will draw a gentle starting rise of maybe 2X … not really a surge at all. It can work in either soft-start full-speed mode, to work like any conventional pressure pump, or as a “constant pressure” pump. The latter will rack up many hours running at reduced speed which is also reduced pumping efficiency. It’s intended for using with tiny pressure tanks, but not so energy-efficient. I’d recommend keeping the full-size normal p tank, and using full-speed mode. > > Incidentally, 3-ph variable speed drive is at the heart of solar pump controllers made for conventional pumps. And those items are for non-battery systems! They are only made for 3-ph motors. Nobody makes one for 1-ph. even though there would be high demand. Above 2HP, all AC subs are 3ph. Solar controllers are handling them PV-direct approaching 100 kW now! > > I’ve been researching this whole topic for my book (Solar Water Pumping, Taylor & Francis for 2017) and I think it’s the best advice for your customer. Any of you other guys have experience with VS 3-ph and constant pressure pumps? > > Please tell me what you end up recommending, and how it works out! > > RE John B’s previous comment: "All the things us solar guys get involved with ...” All I can say is: > > Somebody’s got to do it. > > Windy > > or in my case: Somebody’s got to write about it! http://www.windydankoff.com > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 20:09:31 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 17:09:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94C5408B-1EA2-451E-B4B4-2F384B69A106@gmail.com> Hi Roy and others, A very worrisome situation. I’m wondering if anyone who’s had this problem has not been using OpticsRE. IE is the problem somehow related to RE? Thanks jay peltz power > On Dec 14, 2016, at 2:19 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > > Hello William, Its very frustrating to deal with this sort of thing. I have been running a Mate3 with Optics and I have to say, Its gotten a lot better than it was in the beginning! (however, there are still a few bugs, specifically with 3.015.003. > > I have been running 3.015.001 and its been mostly solid (with the exception of small one or two hour windows of data that go missing. This doesnt always happen, but every once in a while it does. > > When I ran 3.015.000 (If I recall) That is when I had exactly what you described: Upon plugging in (to reboot) Mate3, it would remove stacking parameters and make multiple inverters Master. Ive seen it happen on my home system. Upgrading to 3.015.001 seems to have fixed that issue for me. > > If you have your doubts about what firmware you should be running, I would check out the Outback user forum, members seem pretty fast to make a stink about new bugs and issues found. > > Good luck > > RoyR > > > > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > > > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:00 PM, William Miller > wrote: > Friends: > > > I apologize for not reporting in sooner. As most of you remember, we have seen a few Outback systems with Mate3 controllers experience apparent self-reprogramming. I experienced it and several others reported on it. Many have requested updates, on-line and off. > > > I have discussed this at length with a couple Outback employees. We have reached no definite conclusions but we do have a theory: About 2 weeks prior to this failure, I had a Mate3 fail. There are two in this system and of course the more important of the two failed. > > > I swapped the less critical Mate3 for the failed unit. We stored the configuration of the failed unit onto the SD card and applied that programming to the replacement unit. We spot checked a few settings and assumed the programming was good. It is possible that corruption occurred during this process. The system ran fine for about 2 weeks and then failed. The failure mode was that 4 of the 8 inverters became Masters. > > > The site is, of course, a long ways from my shop. On my last visit I copied the data from the card I thought was pertinent, but I find that to be conclusive, I need the data from the other SD card. Once I retrieve that data, I can hopefully prove or disprove this theory. I will keep you posted. > > > There are a couple of Outback employees that are taking this seriously, and I am most grateful to them. In reading between the lines, it appears to me that they don’t have a lot of support from management to pursue problems like this. It was never said directly, so I apologize if I misunderstood. However, if this problem is causing more than one or two of us consternation and inconvenience, we need to be vocal with Outback wo they can dedicate resources. I don’t fault Outback, we all have to set priorities. As consumers, we need to request higher priorities to issues if they are causing serious problems. > > > There is also other issues: “partially disconnected” systems, gaps in the data and connection reliability issues.. The partial issue cropped up recently. There is a new firmware that supposedly deals with these issues. Check It out. > > > I was told that since Optics was a free service, there was limited responsibility from Outback for reliability. I can’t agree with this point. We spent a lot of money on communications infrastructure and pay monthly for internet to use this service. I think Outback released the Optics system a wee bit prematurely. The pace of firmware upgrades confirms this. I respect Outback people and the product line, but I think expectations might have been more realistic if Optics had been deemed a “beta” release when it first came out. The value and promise of the system is obvious and I will hang in there with Outback and help any way I can to make the product better. One way I can help is remain optimistic that these problems will be solved. > > > More soon. > > > William > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Dec 15 07:53:19 2016 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 07:53:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sma -40 monitoring and tech support In-Reply-To: <7C0CD16930B147E7BB21CD67F3290CA0@PeterPC> References: <7C0CD16930B147E7BB21CD67F3290CA0@PeterPC> Message-ID: I have spent hours on the phone with tech support about this issue. I was a little fuzzy on the reason for all the communications issues, but it might have been something about there being a windows system update that was causing it. They have been working on new firmware for the -40's and the -22's to fix it. On the -40's some inverters screen will lock up entirely needing a trip out to site to install new firmware. Some others will just not update the graphs correctly. On the -22's, I am seeing many sites where the inverter (or one of the inverters on site) will not update the graphs at all, even though on the main page it will show the current power. I was told that they would push the new beta firmware (2.02.12 for the -40's and 2.65.03 for the -22's) onto the sites that I was having issues with. This was about a month ago, and it still has not happened... They also said that the new -40 firmware was going to be pushed globally, but that still has not happened either. At least SMA knows of the issue and it is on their end, not the customers end. Unfortunately that does not look particularly good for us installers, but there is not a whole lot you can do about it, other than visit each site and manually update the firmware. I have not yet done this, so I cannot verify whether it is actually fixing the problem or not. It would be nice if SMA (and other manufacturers) would publish a list of known issues like this somewhere on their website so that we can check it before we all waste hours on the phone with tech support and on site tracking down issues that simply cannot be fixed by us. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Peter Giroux wrote: > Kirpal > > So glad to see you are not sugar coating it. New tech always means new > challenges. There is always Fr-----. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Kirpal Khalsa > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 3:17 PM > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] sma -40 monitoring and tech support > > Friends! > We have been installing the SMA-40 inverters lately. We like the physical > layout of the inverters. They have built in wifi capabilities. On paper > this sounds good. In practice this part of the inverters have been working > like crap. We have multiple sites that are experiencing on going > connectivity issues even with excellent wifi signals. > We have upgraded to the latest firmware 3 times in the last 3 weeks for > inverters manufactured in late October. Clearly they see they have issues, > due to the frequency of firmware updates. Even the latest firmware is > proving useless. Anyone else having trouble with these inverters? We feel > like we are their experimentation lab and doing their R&D on our dime. > Their tech support is minimum an hour wait on hold. We have spent more > time trying to resolve the communications issues than the actual > installation of the whole solar system took, not just the inverters. In > fact I am typing this email as I am on hold. > Any one else having issues with this part of the inverters? Advice on how > to deal with SMA or resolve the issues with out resorting to their useless > tech support? > Thanks! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 <(541)%20299-0402> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Dec 15 09:15:46 2016 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:15:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wifi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am looking for comments on the viability of the Wi-Fi option of the new SB -40 inverters. I noticed some concern here about the poor performance of this option and am trying to decide whether to use it in the case of a long distance between the inverters and the router. I can place a repeater between the inverters and as well as purchase the external antenna option from SMA for the inverters, but would like to have an idea ahead of buying and installing the 2 antennas if this is likely to work. I do have the option of running an Ethernet cable, but it is a long (500' +) and difficult pull. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Thu Dec 15 12:05:08 2016 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:05:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? // Franklin products In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6145C8CA-4186-4A8D-8759-61D89BBD6D2C@mac.com> Dan, Something else I want to add - since your customer has difficult access for a service truck, consider if it’s feasible to pull and replace the pump by hand. I had a 1/2 HP AC pump on almost 200 feet of 1” PVC drop pipe. It took all strong hands on deck (two decks, if you count down in the pit and above, ground level). With 4 people, we pulled it by hand, grunting for sure. PVC schedule 80 can be flexed enough to pull it as one long tube. Putting new pump in is much easier - air in pipe is lighter than water. I don’ know how deep yours is set, but if it’s a 2-wire, it can’t be much deeper than that. Windy > I stand corrected on my advice. This Franklin document describes a MonoDrive 2W model. 2W stands for 2-wire pump! I didn’t know it existed. > > http://franklinwater.com/media/116400/225417101_m1560_sd_manual_05-13_web.pdf > > Nevertheless, I would expect inferior results and would not use it to retrofit an old 2-wire pump if it may be on its last legs. However, it IS what you are asking for, the alternative to replacing the pump! It’s up to you to determine if it’s the BEST option in the short and long run. > > I would run this by a very knowlegable Franklin distributor, as well as your local driller. > > Keep Shining // Windy > From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 12:08:43 2016 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 12:08:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems Message-ID: <017201d256f5$e41b0d00$ac512700$@com> Wrenchers, I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need multiple inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited to no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile is not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if all of the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants things to run as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice system. . Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have no experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter type) had one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked OK but it seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up some space. More technical stuff to deal with. . How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more inverter wattage? . With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a Radian system vs a Flexware 1000 system? . Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a 48VDC inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box? . The regular OB VFXR3648's have lower continuous power and surge ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB VFR3648's @ 7,200VA continuous vs Radian @ 8,000VA; 10.8kVA surge on the 2 VFX's together vs 12kVA on the Radian; also 90ADC vs 115ADC battery charging respectively. Thanks for your time, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Dec 15 13:35:55 2016 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:35:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems In-Reply-To: <017201d256f5$e41b0d00$ac512700$@com> References: <017201d256f5$e41b0d00$ac512700$@com> Message-ID: Dave, In the RV business, load controllers are very common. Intellitec makes a simple, low cost load shedding unit. It may have an application for your grid system. See http://www.intellitec.com/assets/pdf/1453-intellitec-pdf-template-53-00714-000.pdf On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Wrenchers, I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need multiple inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited to no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile is not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if all of the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants things to run as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice system. · Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have no experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter type) had one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked OK but it seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up some space. More technical stuff to deal with. · How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more inverter wattage? · With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a Radian system vs a Flexware 1000 system? · Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a 48VDC inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box? · The regular OB VFXR3648's have lower continuous power and surge ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB VFR3648's @ 7,200VA continuous vs Radian @ 8,000VA; 10.8kVA surge on the 2 VFX's together vs 12kVA on the Radian; also 90ADC vs 115ADC battery charging respectively. Thanks for your time, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2016-12-15 at 11.17.36 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 106546 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Dec 15 13:25:57 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:25:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? // Franklin products In-Reply-To: <6145C8CA-4186-4A8D-8759-61D89BBD6D2C@mac.com> References: <6145C8CA-4186-4A8D-8759-61D89BBD6D2C@mac.com> Message-ID: <7F36E60F-FDD5-40F1-A325-0A3E09421758@millersolar.com> Windy: We have used a quad (four wheeled off-road utility vehicle) to pull pumps. We set up an empty wire spool as a roller right above the well head and attach the pull rope to the quad. Extra hands manage the poly pipe. Less muscle strain this way. William Miller > On Dec 15, 2016, at 9:05 AM, Windy Dankoff wrote: > > Dan, > > Something else I want to add - since your customer has difficult access for a service truck, consider if it’s feasible to pull and replace the pump by hand. I had a 1/2 HP AC pump on almost 200 feet of 1” PVC drop pipe. It took all strong hands on deck (two decks, if you count down in the pit and above, ground level). With 4 people, we pulled it by hand, grunting for sure. PVC schedule 80 can be flexed enough to pull it as one long tube. > > Putting new pump in is much easier - air in pipe is lighter than water. > > I don’ know how deep yours is set, but if it’s a 2-wire, it can’t be much deeper than that. > > Windy > >> I stand corrected on my advice. This Franklin document describes a MonoDrive 2W model. 2W stands for 2-wire pump! I didn’t know it existed. >> >> http://franklinwater.com/media/116400/225417101_m1560_sd_manual_05-13_web.pdf >> >> Nevertheless, I would expect inferior results and would not use it to retrofit an old 2-wire pump if it may be on its last legs. However, it IS what you are asking for, the alternative to replacing the pump! It’s up to you to determine if it’s the BEST option in the short and long run. >> >> I would run this by a very knowlegable Franklin distributor, as well as your local driller. >> >> Keep Shining // Windy > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Thu Dec 15 14:17:32 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:17:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems In-Reply-To: References: <017201d256f5$e41b0d00$ac512700$@com> Message-ID: <91c04e177eba7a9437cb993a0472b4a0@mail.gmail.com> Dave: Here are the differences between the Outback Radian and FX inverters that I think are pertinent to your situation: 1. The Radian has generator support. Don’t confuse this with generator start. Gen support allows the inverter to sync to and aid the generator in providing power to loads. The new FX inverter is the FXR and I am not sure it has this capability. It is worth checking into. Avoid an inverter without this function. 2. The Radian provides more power per hub-port than does the FX series. The Radian can provide 8 kw per hub port while the FX maxes out at 3.6 kW per port. This may not seem important but it can be. If you have a Flexnet DC unit it occupies on port, therefore you are limited to 32 Kw (3.6 * 9 ports). With Radian, you are allowed up to 72 Kw (8*9 ports). And if you reach these maximums, there are no ports for charge controllers. I wish Outback would put some resources into eliminating this bottleneck (and allow more than one Mate, please). 3. I am not fond of the X240 transformer system. I have seen too many instances of tripped breakers. The power save scheme is awkward when using FX inverters, and if you ask three Outback employees about setting this function you will get three answers. 4. Outback supposedly has a white paper on stacking more than two Radians, but I can’t seem to find it. Lones, do you have access to this? 5. You are correct in looking at battery charging ratings. With a big system comes big batteries. You want to be able to charge them in an appropriate length of time. I always hesitate to try and comingle equipment from too many different manufacturers. Battery inverter systems are finicky enough as they are. This may preclude load management. Consider how you would implement this: it would mean contactors, maybe an additional sub-panel, wiring, etc. Sounds problematic to me. Wiring a Radian system is different than wiring a Flexware system. I find the Radian easier now that I have learned a few tricks: 1. Remove all AC breakers from the GSLC cabinets. Instead use two outboard load centers: one for generator fed and one for inverter fed. To provide bypass, run the generator power to the inverter fed panel and provide breaker interlocks. For smaller systems use a factory provided interlock. For larger systems, we custom build breaker interlocks. Contact me off-line for more information. 2. Remove all of the PV breakers from the GSLC. You can use a Midnite DIN rail or panel mount breaker cabinet or even an Outback combiner to mount din rail mount your PV and charge controller breakers. I hope this helps. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Wrenchers, I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need multiple inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited to no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile is not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if all of the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants things to run as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice system. · Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have no experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter type) had one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked OK but it seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up some space. More technical stuff to deal with. · How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more inverter wattage? · With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a Radian system vs a Flexware 1000 system? · Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a 48VDC inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box? · The regular OB VFXR3648's have lower continuous power and surge ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB VFR3648's @ 7,200VA continuous vs Radian @ 8,000VA; 10.8kVA surge on the 2 VFX's together vs 12kVA on the Radian; also 90ADC vs 115ADC battery charging respectively. Thanks for your time, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Dec 15 14:39:06 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:39:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wi-Fi Message-ID: <00b1e78e603e037c44e4ee7b43e09410@mail.gmail.com> Howie: I have not tried the Wi-Fi capabilities, so I cannot comment on that aspect. What is relevant, however, is the news I received from a reliable source that the 40 series inverter will be the last residential inverter manufactured by SMA that will have an on-board display. As evidence of this, look in the manual for a 40 series or even a 22 series inverter- there is no description at all of the display functions. Odd and disappointing. SMA should have a representative on this list. It may still be Steve Jefferson, who is a stand-up guy. SMA, what say you about these communications and display questions? Wrenches, if you think having an on-board display is important, voice your opinion. If the Wi-Fi is problematic, this is not a good direction. A lot of my clients are elderly and they are not as adept at computer or device based operations. A display is essential in my opinion. SMA, please don’t kill the display. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:16 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wifi I am looking for comments on the viability of the Wi-Fi option of the new SB -40 inverters. I noticed some concern here about the poor performance of this option and am trying to decide whether to use it in the case of a long distance between the inverters and the router. I can place a repeater between the inverters and as well as purchase the external antenna option from SMA for the inverters, but would like to have an idea ahead of buying and installing the 2 antennas if this is likely to work. I do have the option of running an Ethernet cable, but it is a long (500' +) and difficult pull. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 15 16:09:25 2016 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:09:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 40 series DC disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d25717$85735c40$905a14c0$@sbcglobal.net> William, I was also surprised to see SMA go down this road (ala Fronius IG). I can’t speak to why they did this. I’m installing my first 40 series right now. I have never supported covering the array as a viable method of removing voltage. It is far safer to unplug the strings on the roof if you want to remove voltage. Not sure why they did not suggest unplugging instead of tarping. Either way, many jurisdictions will require an external dc disconnect with this new configuration—what a waste. If SMA were smart, they would put connectors in their dc connection box to be compliant with the 2017 NEC which would solve their problem. It means a design change. They must be expecting this product to be connected to a rapid shutdown switch box—that’s the only thing that makes sense. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 40 series DC disconnect Bill: That is exactly my point. Carports and ground-mounts do not need RS, but any system requires safe means to disconnect DC. So how do you accomplish this with the 40 series? Sure, using the DC connector is one way to disconnect the DC input to the 40 series electronics. However, the service manual cautions against this. Below is the verbatim text from the manual. >From SMA Document SB30-77-1SP-US-40-AT-PU-SG-xx-11 Service Manual: • If an external DC disconnecting switch is available, open the external DC disconnecting switch. • If there is no external DC disconnecting switch, cover the PV modules with opaque material (e.g. foil). • Ensure that there is no voltage on the DC conductors of the PV array. • Wait five minutes before working on the inverter. • Leave the DC-in connecting terminal plate plugged into the Connection Unit and only touch it on the black enclosure. I was told that the term ‘foil’ is a poor translation from German, and likely means a tarp. In any event, this verbiage is quite unfortunate as it precludes using the connector as a disconnect. I wonder if there is some criteria on what kind of connectors can be used as a disconnecting means and which cannot. I am sure it has something to do with ‘touch-safe’ requirements. The DC connector in the 40 series may not meet this criteria. The external leads could possibly come free of the connector body as they are just insert-connected. I would be very reticent to send out a technician to work on one of these without some serious consideration of the implications. SMA seems like they are interested in this conundrum and I am withholding judgement pending receiving a response from them. I just thought it very curious that they moved the location of the disconnect in the DC power flow scheme. Seems to me like a fundamental change that flew under the radar. See below for a rendering of the change in DC power flow: Formerly: PV-------->Integrated Disconnect------>chassis separation 40 Series: PV ------>chassis separation-------->Integrated Disconnect William PS: I remember wasting an entire afternoon in a conference room in San Diego arguing with Fronius about the same concept. They too insisted that to service the IG series inverter one had to just tarp the modules. Let us please put that myth to rest once and for all: Tarping modules is not viable. Wm Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:40 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect William, I’m not sure you meant to imply this, but carports and ground mounts do not need any RS equipment unless you were to bring the dc conductors into a building, which would not be smart. The 2017 NEC allows connectors to be used as isolation devices for equipment as long as the circuit current is below 30 amps, which it always is on individual strings. I realize California will not be on the 2017 for 3 years, but it will make installations cheaper, not more expensive. Electronics are destined to become a bigger part of PV arrays in the future—and not just because of rapid shutdown requirements. It just makes sense in building applications for many reasons. The keys will be cost and reliability. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:39 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect Friends: I am taking a poll to see if any of you have noticed the change in the SMA 40 series DC disconnect as compared to earlier series inverters and how it may be affecting your installations. The DC disconnect is no longer in the lower, connection box area, but in the electronics area. This means it will not de-energize the DC connections. Certain jurisdictions will not allow us to install this unit without an external disconnect. The service manual addresses the subject. The Remote Shutdown Box unit may provide a means to de-energize PV sources, but in a webinar today SMA claims it does not meet code, possibly in regards to lock-out capability. It actually looked viable to me, but that is not based on any research. Soon all or most building mounted PV arrays will require Rapid Shutdown. This will add hundreds of dollars to the cost of an install, but safety is safety. What may sting is adding $400-500 of RS equipment to a carport or ground mount where it may not otherwise be required. SMA has concurred that the issue bears further discussion and I should hear back from them soon. In the meantime, I thought it might be useful to all parties to see how much impact this change in design is having to other installers. Thanks in advance for any input. I will report back on what I learn. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 18:44:50 2016 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:44:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems In-Reply-To: <91c04e177eba7a9437cb993a0472b4a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <017201d256f5$e41b0d00$ac512700$@com> <91c04e177eba7a9437cb993a0472b4a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <020a01d2572d$3ab8f370$b02ada50$@com> Very helpful William! Thank you. I will work with the client to get the load profile to a point where one 8kW Radian will meet all the household needs, but it is more likely that 2 Radians will be needed. Is it possible/practical to parallel a Radian GS8048 with a GS4048? If so, can the GS4048 be upgraded to 8k in the future? I will reach out to you, off wrench list, for more info on your Radian GSLC cabinet methods. Dave Palumbo From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems Dave: Here are the differences between the Outback Radian and FX inverters that I think are pertinent to your situation: 1. The Radian has generator support. Don’t confuse this with generator start. Gen support allows the inverter to sync to and aid the generator in providing power to loads. The new FX inverter is the FXR and I am not sure it has this capability. It is worth checking into. Avoid an inverter without this function. 2. The Radian provides more power per hub-port than does the FX series. The Radian can provide 8 kw per hub port while the FX maxes out at 3.6 kW per port. This may not seem important but it can be. If you have a Flexnet DC unit it occupies on port, therefore you are limited to 32 Kw (3.6 * 9 ports). With Radian, you are allowed up to 72 Kw (8*9 ports). And if you reach these maximums, there are no ports for charge controllers. I wish Outback would put some resources into eliminating this bottleneck (and allow more than one Mate, please). 3. I am not fond of the X240 transformer system. I have seen too many instances of tripped breakers. The power save scheme is awkward when using FX inverters, and if you ask three Outback employees about setting this function you will get three answers. 4. Outback supposedly has a white paper on stacking more than two Radians, but I can’t seem to find it. Lones, do you have access to this? 5. You are correct in looking at battery charging ratings. With a big system comes big batteries. You want to be able to charge them in an appropriate length of time. I always hesitate to try and comingle equipment from too many different manufacturers. Battery inverter systems are finicky enough as they are. This may preclude load management. Consider how you would implement this: it would mean contactors, maybe an additional sub-panel, wiring, etc. Sounds problematic to me. Wiring a Radian system is different than wiring a Flexware system. I find the Radian easier now that I have learned a few tricks: 1. Remove all AC breakers from the GSLC cabinets. Instead use two outboard load centers: one for generator fed and one for inverter fed. To provide bypass, run the generator power to the inverter fed panel and provide breaker interlocks. For smaller systems use a factory provided interlock. For larger systems, we custom build breaker interlocks. Contact me off-line for more information. 2. Remove all of the PV breakers from the GSLC. You can use a Midnite DIN rail or panel mount breaker cabinet or even an Outback combiner to mount din rail mount your PV and charge controller breakers. I hope this helps. William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Wrenchers, I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need multiple inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited to no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile is not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if all of the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants things to run as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice system. · Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have no experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter type) had one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked OK but it seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up some space. More technical stuff to deal with. · How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more inverter wattage? · With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a Radian system vs a Flexware 1000 system? · Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a 48VDC inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box? · The regular OB VFXR3648's have lower continuous power and surge ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB VFR3648's @ 7,200VA continuous vs Radian @ 8,000VA; 10.8kVA surge on the 2 VFX's together vs 12kVA on the Radian; also 90ADC vs 115ADC battery charging respectively. Thanks for your time, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Dec 15 18:47:28 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:47:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems In-Reply-To: <020a01d2572d$3ab8f370$b02ada50$@com> References: <017201d256f5$e41b0d00$ac512700$@com> <91c04e177eba7a9437cb993a0472b4a0@mail.gmail.com> <020a01d2572d$3ab8f370$b02ada50$@com> Message-ID: <103644cca205bfad3d5fc9fa44fe8d2c@mail.gmail.com> Dave: The official answer is that, no, you cannot upgrade a 4 kW to an 8 kW. There was a hint that there was a non-supported way to do this, but I would not want to attempt this until after the unit was out of warranty. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Palumbo *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 3:45 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems Very helpful William! Thank you. I will work with the client to get the load profile to a point where one 8kW Radian will meet all the household needs, but it is more likely that 2 Radians will be needed. Is it possible/practical to parallel a Radian GS8048 with a GS4048? If so, can the GS4048 be upgraded to 8k in the future? I will reach out to you, off wrench list, for more info on your Radian GSLC cabinet methods. Dave Palumbo *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 2:18 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems Dave: Here are the differences between the Outback Radian and FX inverters that I think are pertinent to your situation: 1. The Radian has generator support. Don’t confuse this with generator start. Gen support allows the inverter to sync to and aid the generator in providing power to loads. The new FX inverter is the FXR and I am not sure it has this capability. It is worth checking into. Avoid an inverter without this function. 2. The Radian provides more power per hub-port than does the FX series. The Radian can provide 8 kw per hub port while the FX maxes out at 3.6 kW per port. This may not seem important but it can be. If you have a Flexnet DC unit it occupies on port, therefore you are limited to 32 Kw (3.6 * 9 ports). With Radian, you are allowed up to 72 Kw (8*9 ports). And if you reach these maximums, there are no ports for charge controllers. I wish Outback would put some resources into eliminating this bottleneck (and allow more than one Mate, please). 3. I am not fond of the X240 transformer system. I have seen too many instances of tripped breakers. The power save scheme is awkward when using FX inverters, and if you ask three Outback employees about setting this function you will get three answers. 4. Outback supposedly has a white paper on stacking more than two Radians, but I can’t seem to find it. Lones, do you have access to this? 5. You are correct in looking at battery charging ratings. With a big system comes big batteries. You want to be able to charge them in an appropriate length of time. I always hesitate to try and comingle equipment from too many different manufacturers. Battery inverter systems are finicky enough as they are. This may preclude load management. Consider how you would implement this: it would mean contactors, maybe an additional sub-panel, wiring, etc. Sounds problematic to me. Wiring a Radian system is different than wiring a Flexware system. I find the Radian easier now that I have learned a few tricks: 1. Remove all AC breakers from the GSLC cabinets. Instead use two outboard load centers: one for generator fed and one for inverter fed. To provide bypass, run the generator power to the inverter fed panel and provide breaker interlocks. For smaller systems use a factory provided interlock. For larger systems, we custom build breaker interlocks. Contact me off-line for more information. 2. Remove all of the PV breakers from the GSLC. You can use a Midnite DIN rail or panel mount breaker cabinet or even an Outback combiner to mount din rail mount your PV and charge controller breakers. I hope this helps. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Wrenchers, I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need multiple inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited to no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile is not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if all of the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants things to run as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice system. · Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have no experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter type) had one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked OK but it seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up some space. More technical stuff to deal with. · How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more inverter wattage? · With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a Radian system vs a Flexware 1000 system? · Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a 48VDC inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box? · The regular OB VFXR3648's have lower continuous power and surge ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB VFR3648's @ 7,200VA continuous vs Radian @ 8,000VA; 10.8kVA surge on the 2 VFX's together vs 12kVA on the Radian; also 90ADC vs 115ADC battery charging respectively. Thanks for your time, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 10:40:18 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 11:40:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wi-Fi In-Reply-To: <00b1e78e603e037c44e4ee7b43e09410@mail.gmail.com> References: <00b1e78e603e037c44e4ee7b43e09410@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In the Caribbean, the SMA displays all turn yellow and become opaque. I use the bluetooth feature for programming them. I won't miss the useless displays. On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 3:39 PM, William Miller wrote: > Howie: > > > > I have not tried the Wi-Fi capabilities, so I cannot comment on that > aspect. What is relevant, however, is the news I received from a reliable > source that the 40 series inverter will be the last residential inverter > manufactured by SMA that will have an on-board display. As evidence of > this, look in the manual for a 40 series or even a 22 series inverter- > there is no description at all of the display functions. Odd and > disappointing. > > > > SMA should have a representative on this list. It may still be Steve > Jefferson, who is a stand-up guy. SMA, what say you about these > communications and display questions? > > > > Wrenches, if you think having an on-board display is important, voice your > opinion. If the Wi-Fi is problematic, this is not a good direction. A lot > of my clients are elderly and they are not as adept at computer or device > based operations. A display is essential in my opinion. SMA, please don’t > kill the display. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson > *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:16 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wifi > > > > I am looking for comments on the viability of the Wi-Fi option of the new > SB -40 inverters. I noticed some concern here about the poor performance of > this option and am trying to decide whether to use it in the case of a long > distance between the inverters and the router. > > I can place a repeater between the inverters and as well as purchase the > external antenna option from SMA for the inverters, but would like to have > an idea ahead of buying and installing the 2 antennas if this is likely to > work. I do have the option of running an Ethernet cable, but it is a long > (500' +) and difficult pull. Any comments or suggestions would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 <(802)%20272-0004> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Dec 16 13:24:01 2016 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 11:24:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Carbon Foam AGM Deep Cycle Batteries Message-ID: <20161216112401.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.2d21d82e1a.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Dec 16 17:25:02 2016 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 22:25:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems In-Reply-To: <91c04e177eba7a9437cb993a0472b4a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <017201d256f5$e41b0d00$ac512700$@com> <91c04e177eba7a9437cb993a0472b4a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <08dee94f4e834ea9a0b189188e1258db@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Radian stacking and power save levels are in the Radian Programming Manual Starting page 36 http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Make_the_Power/radian_8048a_4048a/gs_8048a_4048a_operator.pdf The GS8048A can be stacked with a GS4048A inverter for a 12Kw system. Lones Tuss Applications Engineer OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell www.outbackpower.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems Dave: Here are the differences between the Outback Radian and FX inverters that I think are pertinent to your situation: 1. The Radian has generator support. Don’t confuse this with generator start. Gen support allows the inverter to sync to and aid the generator in providing power to loads. The new FX inverter is the FXR and I am not sure it has this capability. It is worth checking into. Avoid an inverter without this function. 2. The Radian provides more power per hub-port than does the FX series. The Radian can provide 8 kw per hub port while the FX maxes out at 3.6 kW per port. This may not seem important but it can be. If you have a Flexnet DC unit it occupies on port, therefore you are limited to 32 Kw (3.6 * 9 ports). With Radian, you are allowed up to 72 Kw (8*9 ports). And if you reach these maximums, there are no ports for charge controllers. I wish Outback would put some resources into eliminating this bottleneck (and allow more than one Mate, please). 3. I am not fond of the X240 transformer system. I have seen too many instances of tripped breakers. The power save scheme is awkward when using FX inverters, and if you ask three Outback employees about setting this function you will get three answers. 4. Outback supposedly has a white paper on stacking more than two Radians, but I can’t seem to find it. Lones, do you have access to this? 5. You are correct in looking at battery charging ratings. With a big system comes big batteries. You want to be able to charge them in an appropriate length of time. I always hesitate to try and comingle equipment from too many different manufacturers. Battery inverter systems are finicky enough as they are. This may preclude load management. Consider how you would implement this: it would mean contactors, maybe an additional sub-panel, wiring, etc. Sounds problematic to me. Wiring a Radian system is different than wiring a Flexware system. I find the Radian easier now that I have learned a few tricks: 1. Remove all AC breakers from the GSLC cabinets. Instead use two outboard load centers: one for generator fed and one for inverter fed. To provide bypass, run the generator power to the inverter fed panel and provide breaker interlocks. For smaller systems use a factory provided interlock. For larger systems, we custom build breaker interlocks. Contact me off-line for more information. 2. Remove all of the PV breakers from the GSLC. You can use a Midnite DIN rail or panel mount breaker cabinet or even an Outback combiner to mount din rail mount your PV and charge controller breakers. I hope this helps. William Miller [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo > wrote: Wrenchers, I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need multiple inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited to no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile is not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if all of the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants things to run as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice system. • Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have no experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter type) had one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked OK but it seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up some space. More technical stuff to deal with. • How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more inverter wattage? • With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a Radian system vs a Flexware 1000 system? • Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a 48VDC inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box? • The regular OB VFXR3648's have lower continuous power and surge ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB VFR3648's @ 7,200VA continuous vs Radian @ 8,000VA; 10.8kVA surge on the 2 VFX's together vs 12kVA on the Radian; also 90ADC vs 115ADC battery charging respectively. Thanks for your time, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Fri Dec 16 21:31:35 2016 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:31:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 40 series DC disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <000001d25717$85735c40$905a14c0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: 2014 NEC 690.18 is now removed in NEC 2017? Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract PV Technical Inspector Roof & Ground Mounted Solar PV Systems Licensed Contractor & Consultant - Since 2004 BBB Accredited Business Email: mail at herzfeld.org UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG Martin Herzfeld is a registed NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider On Dec 15, 2016 1:09 PM, wrote: William, I was also surprised to see SMA go down this road (ala Fronius IG). I can’t speak to why they did this. I’m installing my first 40 series right now. I have never supported covering the array as a viable method of removing voltage. It is far safer to unplug the strings on the roof if you want to remove voltage. Not sure why they did not suggest unplugging instead of tarping. Either way, many jurisdictions will require an external dc disconnect with this new configuration—what a waste. If SMA were smart, they would put connectors in their dc connection box to be compliant with the 2017 NEC which would solve their problem. It means a design change. They must be expecting this product to be connected to a rapid shutdown switch box—that’s the only thing that makes sense. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:45 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 40 series DC disconnect Bill: That is exactly my point. Carports and ground-mounts do not need RS, but any system requires safe means to disconnect DC. So how do you accomplish this with the 40 series? Sure, using the DC connector is one way to disconnect the DC input to the 40 series electronics. However, the service manual cautions against this. Below is the verbatim text from the manual. >From SMA Document SB30-77-1SP-US-40-AT-PU-SG-xx-11 Service Manual: • If an external DC disconnecting switch is available, open the external DC disconnecting switch. • If there is no external DC disconnecting switch, cover the PV modules with opaque material (e.g. foil). • Ensure that there is no voltage on the DC conductors of the PV array. • Wait five minutes before working on the inverter. • Leave the *DC-in *connecting terminal plate plugged into the Connection Unit and only touch it on the black enclosure. I was told that the term ‘foil’ is a poor translation from German, and likely means a tarp. In any event, this verbiage is quite unfortunate as it precludes using the connector as a disconnect. I wonder if there is some criteria on what kind of connectors can be used as a disconnecting means and which cannot. I am sure it has something to do with ‘touch-safe’ requirements. The DC connector in the 40 series may not meet this criteria. The external leads could possibly come free of the connector body as they are just insert-connected. I would be very reticent to send out a technician to work on one of these without some serious consideration of the implications. SMA seems like they are interested in this conundrum and I am withholding judgement pending receiving a response from them. I just thought it very curious that they moved the location of the disconnect in the DC power flow scheme. Seems to me like a fundamental change that flew under the radar. See below for a rendering of the change in DC power flow: Formerly: PV------àIntegrated Disconnect----àchassis separation 40 Series: PV ----àchassis separation------àIntegrated Disconnect William PS: I remember wasting an entire afternoon in a conference room in San Diego arguing with Fronius about the same concept. They too insisted that to service the IG series inverter one had to just tarp the modules. Let us please put that myth to rest once and for all: Tarping modules is not viable. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net *Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:40 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect William, I’m not sure you meant to imply this, but carports and ground mounts do not need any RS equipment unless you were to bring the dc conductors into a building, which would not be smart. The 2017 NEC allows connectors to be used as isolation devices for equipment as long as the circuit current is below 30 amps, which it always is on individual strings. I realize California will not be on the 2017 for 3 years, but it will make installations cheaper, not more expensive. Electronics are destined to become a bigger part of PV arrays in the future—and not just because of rapid shutdown requirements. It just makes sense in building applications for many reasons. The keys will be cost and reliability. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:39 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect Friends: I am taking a poll to see if any of you have noticed the change in the SMA 40 series DC disconnect as compared to earlier series inverters and how it may be affecting your installations. The DC disconnect is no longer in the lower, connection box area, but in the electronics area. This means it will not de-energize the DC connections. Certain jurisdictions will not allow us to install this unit without an external disconnect. The service manual addresses the subject. The Remote Shutdown Box unit may provide a means to de-energize PV sources, but in a webinar today SMA claims it does not meet code, possibly in regards to lock-out capability. It actually looked viable to me, but that is not based on any research. Soon all or most building mounted PV arrays will require Rapid Shutdown. This will add hundreds of dollars to the cost of an install, but safety is safety. What may sting is adding $400-500 of RS equipment to a carport or ground mount where it may not otherwise be required. SMA has concurred that the issue bears further discussion and I should hear back from them soon. In the meantime, I thought it might be useful to all parties to see how much impact this change in design is having to other installers. Thanks in advance for any input. I will report back on what I learn. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 11:33:15 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 06:33:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wi-Fi Message-ID: HowieI here in Hawaii, we are slow to approve new inverters and it takes a very long time to get through permits so l can't say much about the SMA -40 Inverter. Regarding wifi vs hard line, maybe for one unit it would be easy but we just installed 27 of the SMA 24K -22 at one location and hard wire is the only solution with all the updates and programming we need to do. I do feel a display would be a help as " in front of the inverter trouble shooting" is better, there is talk about phone apps but just more crap to have to look at in the bright light when a built in basic display would be a better solution.On the topic of hard to read display lenses, use headlight lense cleaner, makes a big difference.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Mason Date: 12/16/16 5:40 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wi-Fi In the Caribbean, the SMA displays all turn yellow and become opaque. I use the bluetooth feature for programming them.I won't miss the useless displays. On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 3:39 PM, William Miller wrote: Howie: I have not tried the Wi-Fi capabilities, so I cannot comment on that aspect.  What is relevant, however, is the news I received from a reliable source that the 40 series inverter will be the last residential inverter manufactured by SMA that will have an on-board display.  As evidence of this, look in the manual for a 40 series or even a 22 series inverter-  there is no description at all of the display functions.  Odd and disappointing.   SMA should have a representative on this list.  It may still be Steve Jefferson, who is a stand-up guy. SMA, what say you about these communications and display questions? Wrenches, if you think having an on-board display is important, voice your opinion.  If the Wi-Fi is problematic, this is not a good direction.  A lot of my clients are elderly and they are not as adept at computer or device based operations. A display is essential in my opinion.  SMA, please don’t kill the display. William Miller   Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:16 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wifi I am looking for comments on the viability of the Wi-Fi option of the new SB -40 inverters. I noticed some concern here about the poor performance of this option and am trying to decide whether to use it in the case of a long distance between the inverters and the router.I can place a repeater between the inverters and as well as purchase the external antenna option from SMA for the inverters, but would like to have an idea ahead of buying and installing the 2 antennas if this is likely to work. I do have the option of running an Ethernet cable, but it is a long (500' +) and difficult pull. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.Thanks,Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris MasonNABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™Solar Design EngineerGenerac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com264.235.5670869.662.5670Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 20:41:59 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 20:41:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 lock-up Message-ID: I have had several instances of the Mate 3 locking up where I cannot program anything and the main screen is abbreviated with only one bar. The first time this happened I had been given a command with 2 buttons to push to unlock it from an Outback technician and it worked. Now it has happened again and it is a weekend and I don't remember the keystrokes. Anybody out there know what they are? This system is a gen set and inverter only. No solar. Either the generator is not starting or the mate 3 is not starting it or something is going on with the VFXR inverter and the mate. It worked fine for about 8 months and worked OK on Dec 8 where it started the generator with the 2 hour start...the only info I could recover... no events survived the total power loss of dead generator battery and main 48 v bank down to 7 volts. One other very puzzling thing is that the batteries went so low.. No DC loads other than the inverter and Mate 3. Could the Mate 3 and the control board on the inverter draw down 8 golf cart batteries from low battery cut off to 8 volts in one week? This is the 2nd time I have had to jump start this system back to life and it doesn't look good to the customer who ran an identical system with an old Trace 2524 for years with no problems til the Trace died of old age. John Blittersdorf Rob Stubbins Solar > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 21:26:19 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 18:26:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 lock-up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F185AE3-77F6-42E2-9844-5202172C3108@gmail.com> Hi john I'd like to know that trick, but just unplug the cat 5 cable and reconnect. That'll work. I've not had any issues with the ags not working as planned with mate 3. But dead generator battery makes me think genny didn't start, system shut down at LBCO. But a week to take it that low, I'd suspect a weak battery in the 48v. Jay Peltz power. > On Dec 18, 2016, at 5:41 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > I have had several instances of the Mate 3 locking up where I cannot program anything and the main screen is abbreviated with only one bar. The first time this happened I had been given a command with 2 buttons to push to unlock it from an Outback technician and it worked. > > Now it has happened again and it is a weekend and I don't remember the keystrokes. > Anybody out there know what they are? > > This system is a gen set and inverter only. No solar. Either the generator is not starting or the mate 3 is not starting it or something is going on with the VFXR inverter and the mate. It worked fine for about 8 months and worked OK on Dec 8 where it started the generator with the 2 hour start...the only info I could recover... no events survived the total power loss of dead generator battery and main 48 v bank down to 7 volts. One other very puzzling thing is that the batteries went so low.. No DC loads other than the inverter and Mate 3. Could the Mate 3 and the control board on the inverter draw down 8 golf cart batteries from low battery cut off to 8 volts in one week? This is the 2nd time I have had to jump start this system back to life and it doesn't look good to the customer who ran an identical system with an old Trace 2524 for years with no problems til the Trace died of old age. > > John Blittersdorf > Rob Stubbins Solar > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 09:49:57 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:49:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 lock-up In-Reply-To: <4F185AE3-77F6-42E2-9844-5202172C3108@gmail.com> References: <4F185AE3-77F6-42E2-9844-5202172C3108@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Glad to know you have had good luck with the mate 3. I am depending on it and OpticsRE to monitor some remote sites. The mountaintop transmitter site has worked flawlessly but the main problem is keeping the internet connection up there that is transmitted from another mountaintop site. At a second home remote site I saw a generator fail an exercise run on Sat and called the caretaker Sunday when the system was going down. It went off line at 9 pm yesterday but it is sunny this morning and everything came back on at 8 am but the caretaker will have to chain up and drive the 2 mile mountain road to manually reset the Eco-Gen. It might have been the last -9 degree night with 45 mile and hour winds. I was able to contact Outback this morning and the magic button is the UP button. Push and hold. That will release the lock button to work, then go to settings, system, then do clear internal datalog. There have been some issues with it not overwriting when memory runs out and it locks up. Also he said to go back to firmware version 3.011 or older.. I will once again ask the customer to consider adding solar as it would recover the inverter which would charge the generator battery and at least prevent battery abuse. It is great to watch the sun heal most of the ills. John Blittersdorf Rob Stubbins Solar On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi john > > I'd like to know that trick, but just unplug the cat 5 cable and > reconnect. > That'll work. > I've not had any issues with the ags not working as planned with mate 3. > > But dead generator battery makes me think genny didn't start, system shut > down at LBCO. > > But a week to take it that low, I'd suspect a weak battery in the 48v. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > On Dec 18, 2016, at 5:41 PM, John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > > I have had several instances of the Mate 3 locking up where I cannot > program anything and the main screen is abbreviated with only one bar. The > first time this happened I had been given a command with 2 buttons to push > to unlock it from an Outback technician and it worked. > > Now it has happened again and it is a weekend and I don't remember the > keystrokes. > Anybody out there know what they are? > > This system is a gen set and inverter only. No solar. Either the > generator is not starting or the mate 3 is not starting it or something is > going on with the VFXR inverter and the mate. It worked fine for about 8 > months and worked OK on Dec 8 where it started the generator with the 2 > hour start...the only info I could recover... no events survived the total > power loss of dead generator battery and main 48 v bank down to 7 volts. > One other very puzzling thing is that the batteries went so low.. No DC > loads other than the inverter and Mate 3. Could the Mate 3 and the control > board on the inverter draw down 8 golf cart batteries from low battery cut > off to 8 volts in one week? This is the 2nd time I have had to jump start > this system back to life and it doesn't look good to the customer who ran > an identical system with an old Trace 2524 for years with no problems til > the Trace died of old age. > > John Blittersdorf > Rob Stubbins Solar > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Dec 19 10:57:41 2016 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 10:57:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 lock-up In-Reply-To: References: <4F185AE3-77F6-42E2-9844-5202172C3108@gmail.com> Message-ID: John, What kind of environment are the batteries in? Given that we have been experiencing some extreme cold as you know will kill a battery quickly. Christopher On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:49 AM, John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Jay, > Glad to know you have had good luck with the mate 3. I am depending on > it and OpticsRE to monitor some remote sites. The mountaintop transmitter > site has worked flawlessly but the main problem is keeping the internet > connection up there that is transmitted from another mountaintop site. At > a second home remote site I saw a generator fail an exercise run on Sat and > called the caretaker Sunday when the system was going down. It went off > line at 9 pm yesterday but it is sunny this morning and everything came > back on at 8 am but the caretaker will have to chain up and drive the 2 > mile mountain road to manually reset the Eco-Gen. It might have been the > last -9 degree night with 45 mile and hour winds. > > I was able to contact Outback this morning and the magic button is the > UP button. Push and hold. That will release the lock button to work, then > go to settings, system, then do clear internal datalog. There have been > some issues with it not overwriting when memory runs out and it locks up. > Also he said to go back to firmware version 3.011 or older.. I will once > again ask the customer to consider adding solar as it would recover the > inverter which would charge the generator battery and at least prevent > battery abuse. It is great to watch the sun heal most of the ills. > > John Blittersdorf > Rob Stubbins Solar > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Jay wrote: > >> Hi john >> >> I'd like to know that trick, but just unplug the cat 5 cable and >> reconnect. >> That'll work. >> I've not had any issues with the ags not working as planned with mate 3. >> >> But dead generator battery makes me think genny didn't start, system shut >> down at LBCO. >> >> But a week to take it that low, I'd suspect a weak battery in the 48v. >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> >> On Dec 18, 2016, at 5:41 PM, John Blittersdorf < >> john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I have had several instances of the Mate 3 locking up where I cannot >> program anything and the main screen is abbreviated with only one bar. The >> first time this happened I had been given a command with 2 buttons to push >> to unlock it from an Outback technician and it worked. >> >> Now it has happened again and it is a weekend and I don't remember the >> keystrokes. >> Anybody out there know what they are? >> >> This system is a gen set and inverter only. No solar. Either the >> generator is not starting or the mate 3 is not starting it or something is >> going on with the VFXR inverter and the mate. It worked fine for about 8 >> months and worked OK on Dec 8 where it started the generator with the 2 >> hour start...the only info I could recover... no events survived the total >> power loss of dead generator battery and main 48 v bank down to 7 volts. >> One other very puzzling thing is that the batteries went so low.. No DC >> loads other than the inverter and Mate 3. Could the Mate 3 and the control >> board on the inverter draw down 8 golf cart batteries from low battery cut >> off to 8 volts in one week? This is the 2nd time I have had to jump start >> this system back to life and it doesn't look good to the customer who ran >> an identical system with an old Trace 2524 for years with no problems til >> the Trace died of old age. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> Rob Stubbins Solar >> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Mon Dec 19 11:24:37 2016 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 11:24:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wi-Fi In-Reply-To: <00b1e78e603e037c44e4ee7b43e09410@mail.gmail.com> References: <00b1e78e603e037c44e4ee7b43e09410@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, I would ditto your comment about customers who are not adept at computer/network/web being left out by a decision to remove the built-in display. Wireless and networked systems always add a layer of complexity to the installation and commissioning of a system. Setting this stuff up is tedious and I'd argue that it provides limited value to the owner. Less emphasis on WIFI connectivity and more emphasis on a useful built-in display would be my wish for not only SMA, but all inverter manufacturers. As an installer I greatly appreciate having a display that conveys information helpful to understanding the operation of the system. SMA dropped the ball by not providing a User Manual with their 40 series. Try troubleshooting an error without the User Manual. Having all the info in hand and on a screen in front of you makes life in the field a lot easier. You definitely don't want to have to call SMA - that sucks up a lot of time. I have a couple of customers with Xantrex SW series inverters. These older inverters have a built-in display with buttons that allow the installer or owner to check system information and to program variables. I sure like visiting these jobs and I've found that over-the-phone troubleshooting with customers is pretty smooth. Anyway, I'd trade all the web connectivity and wifi capability for a similar built-in display on today's inverters. -Matt On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:39 PM, William Miller wrote: > Howie: > > > > I have not tried the Wi-Fi capabilities, so I cannot comment on that > aspect. What is relevant, however, is the news I received from a reliable > source that the 40 series inverter will be the last residential inverter > manufactured by SMA that will have an on-board display. As evidence of > this, look in the manual for a 40 series or even a 22 series inverter- > there is no description at all of the display functions. Odd and > disappointing. > > > > SMA should have a representative on this list. It may still be Steve > Jefferson, who is a stand-up guy. SMA, what say you about these > communications and display questions? > > > > Wrenches, if you think having an on-board display is important, voice your > opinion. If the Wi-Fi is problematic, this is not a good direction. A lot > of my clients are elderly and they are not as adept at computer or device > based operations. A display is essential in my opinion. SMA, please don’t > kill the display. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson > *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:16 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wifi > > > > I am looking for comments on the viability of the Wi-Fi option of the new > SB -40 inverters. I noticed some concern here about the poor performance of > this option and am trying to decide whether to use it in the case of a long > distance between the inverters and the router. > > I can place a repeater between the inverters and as well as purchase the > external antenna option from SMA for the inverters, but would like to have > an idea ahead of buying and installing the 2 antennas if this is likely to > work. I do have the option of running an Ethernet cable, but it is a long > (500' +) and difficult pull. Any comments or suggestions would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 <(802)%20272-0004> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 13:56:59 2016 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 13:56:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 lock-up In-Reply-To: References: <4F185AE3-77F6-42E2-9844-5202172C3108@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris, They are in a heated basement so the cold isn't an issue. I'm heading back over there this afternoon to replace the mate 3 and see if the batteries have crashed again. This is the 2nd time they have been drained dead so I'm sure that they aren't in the best of health. I will remember to get a current reading from the batteries today. John On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > John, > What kind of environment are the batteries in? Given that we have been > experiencing some extreme cold as you know will kill a battery quickly. > > Christopher > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:49 AM, John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Jay, >> Glad to know you have had good luck with the mate 3. I am depending on >> it and OpticsRE to monitor some remote sites. The mountaintop transmitter >> site has worked flawlessly but the main problem is keeping the internet >> connection up there that is transmitted from another mountaintop site. At >> a second home remote site I saw a generator fail an exercise run on Sat and >> called the caretaker Sunday when the system was going down. It went off >> line at 9 pm yesterday but it is sunny this morning and everything came >> back on at 8 am but the caretaker will have to chain up and drive the 2 >> mile mountain road to manually reset the Eco-Gen. It might have been the >> last -9 degree night with 45 mile and hour winds. >> >> I was able to contact Outback this morning and the magic button is the >> UP button. Push and hold. That will release the lock button to work, then >> go to settings, system, then do clear internal datalog. There have been >> some issues with it not overwriting when memory runs out and it locks up. >> Also he said to go back to firmware version 3.011 or older.. I will once >> again ask the customer to consider adding solar as it would recover the >> inverter which would charge the generator battery and at least prevent >> battery abuse. It is great to watch the sun heal most of the ills. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> Rob Stubbins Solar >> >> On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi john >>> >>> I'd like to know that trick, but just unplug the cat 5 cable and >>> reconnect. >>> That'll work. >>> I've not had any issues with the ags not working as planned with mate 3. >>> >>> But dead generator battery makes me think genny didn't start, system >>> shut down at LBCO. >>> >>> But a week to take it that low, I'd suspect a weak battery in the 48v. >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> On Dec 18, 2016, at 5:41 PM, John Blittersdorf < >>> john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I have had several instances of the Mate 3 locking up where I cannot >>> program anything and the main screen is abbreviated with only one bar. The >>> first time this happened I had been given a command with 2 buttons to push >>> to unlock it from an Outback technician and it worked. >>> >>> Now it has happened again and it is a weekend and I don't remember the >>> keystrokes. >>> Anybody out there know what they are? >>> >>> This system is a gen set and inverter only. No solar. Either the >>> generator is not starting or the mate 3 is not starting it or something is >>> going on with the VFXR inverter and the mate. It worked fine for about 8 >>> months and worked OK on Dec 8 where it started the generator with the 2 >>> hour start...the only info I could recover... no events survived the total >>> power loss of dead generator battery and main 48 v bank down to 7 volts. >>> One other very puzzling thing is that the batteries went so low.. No DC >>> loads other than the inverter and Mate 3. Could the Mate 3 and the control >>> board on the inverter draw down 8 golf cart batteries from low battery cut >>> off to 8 volts in one week? This is the 2nd time I have had to jump start >>> this system back to life and it doesn't look good to the customer who ran >>> an identical system with an old Trace 2524 for years with no problems til >>> the Trace died of old age. >>> >>> John Blittersdorf >>> Rob Stubbins Solar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <(585)%20229-2083> or Cell 585-748-1870 > <(585)%20748-1870> * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 11:09:09 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 08:09:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 lock-up In-Reply-To: References: <4F185AE3-77F6-42E2-9844-5202172C3108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2758BDC0-BDB7-4006-B584-B2B73C550A6C@gmail.com> Hi john Thanks for that tip Interesting quandary. New revs seem to work better, more stable for RE. But yea they screwed up on the internal memory clear. Can you clear that via RE? Jay Peltz power. > On Dec 19, 2016, at 7:57 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > John, > What kind of environment are the batteries in? Given that we have been experiencing some extreme cold as you know will kill a battery quickly. > > Christopher > >> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:49 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: >> Jay, >> Glad to know you have had good luck with the mate 3. I am depending on it and OpticsRE to monitor some remote sites. The mountaintop transmitter site has worked flawlessly but the main problem is keeping the internet connection up there that is transmitted from another mountaintop site. At a second home remote site I saw a generator fail an exercise run on Sat and called the caretaker Sunday when the system was going down. It went off line at 9 pm yesterday but it is sunny this morning and everything came back on at 8 am but the caretaker will have to chain up and drive the 2 mile mountain road to manually reset the Eco-Gen. It might have been the last -9 degree night with 45 mile and hour winds. >> >> I was able to contact Outback this morning and the magic button is the UP button. Push and hold. That will release the lock button to work, then go to settings, system, then do clear internal datalog. There have been some issues with it not overwriting when memory runs out and it locks up. Also he said to go back to firmware version 3.011 or older.. I will once again ask the customer to consider adding solar as it would recover the inverter which would charge the generator battery and at least prevent battery abuse. It is great to watch the sun heal most of the ills. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> Rob Stubbins Solar >> >>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Jay wrote: >>> Hi john >>> >>> I'd like to know that trick, but just unplug the cat 5 cable and reconnect. >>> That'll work. >>> I've not had any issues with the ags not working as planned with mate 3. >>> >>> But dead generator battery makes me think genny didn't start, system shut down at LBCO. >>> >>> But a week to take it that low, I'd suspect a weak battery in the 48v. >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 18, 2016, at 5:41 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: >>>> >>>> I have had several instances of the Mate 3 locking up where I cannot program anything and the main screen is abbreviated with only one bar. The first time this happened I had been given a command with 2 buttons to push to unlock it from an Outback technician and it worked. >>>> >>>> Now it has happened again and it is a weekend and I don't remember the keystrokes. >>>> Anybody out there know what they are? >>>> >>>> This system is a gen set and inverter only. No solar. Either the generator is not starting or the mate 3 is not starting it or something is going on with the VFXR inverter and the mate. It worked fine for about 8 months and worked OK on Dec 8 where it started the generator with the 2 hour start...the only info I could recover... no events survived the total power loss of dead generator battery and main 48 v bank down to 7 volts. One other very puzzling thing is that the batteries went so low.. No DC loads other than the inverter and Mate 3. Could the Mate 3 and the control board on the inverter draw down 8 golf cart batteries from low battery cut off to 8 volts in one week? This is the 2nd time I have had to jump start this system back to life and it doesn't look good to the customer who ran an identical system with an old Trace 2524 for years with no problems til the Trace died of old age. >>>> >>>> John Blittersdorf >>>> Rob Stubbins Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Dec 20 00:23:42 2016 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 21:23:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wi-Fi In-Reply-To: References: <00b1e78e603e037c44e4ee7b43e09410@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <54087fdd-7265-2130-16c6-86b57dc31348@psln.com> I'll throw in a vote for keeping the display on the SMA inverters with a similar level of info provided by the -22's and the -40's. It's right there, reliable, simple though adequate info for both monitoring and troubleshooting, it would be a great loss. Not everybody wants to be "connected". I'll try Jerry's idea of the headlight restoration polish for the yellowing display. Also keep them out of the sun and the clarity stays much longer. I've been experimenting with a small piece of UVA/UVB glass secured to the front of the display window with outdoor rated 3M 2-sided tape, I'll report back in a decade! For the manual I guess the best option is to goto: http://files.sma.de/dl/27676/SB30-77-1SP-US-40-BA-en-11.pdf and print the user manual for these inverters and add it to the binder in the truck. Yes, its 68 pages but could save a trip out and many of the pages need not be printed (warnings, etc). Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 12/19/2016 8:24 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: > William, > > I would ditto your comment about customers who are not adept at > computer/network/web being left out by a decision to remove the > built-in display. Wireless and networked systems always add a layer > of complexity to the installation and commissioning of a system. > Setting this stuff up is tedious and I'd argue that it provides > limited value to the owner. > > Less emphasis on WIFI connectivity and more emphasis on a useful > built-in display would be my wish for not only SMA, but all inverter > manufacturers. As an installer I greatly appreciate having a display > that conveys information helpful to understanding the operation of the > system. > > SMA dropped the ball by not providing a User Manual with their 40 > series. Try troubleshooting an error without the User Manual. Having > all the info in hand and on a screen in front of you makes life in the > field a lot easier. You definitely don't want to have to call SMA - > that sucks up a lot of time. > > I have a couple of customers with Xantrex SW series inverters. These > older inverters have a built-in display with buttons that allow the > installer or owner to check system information and to program > variables. I sure like visiting these jobs and I've found that > over-the-phone troubleshooting with customers is pretty smooth. > Anyway, I'd trade all the web connectivity and wifi capability for a > similar built-in display on today's inverters. > > -Matt > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:39 PM, William Miller > > wrote: > > Howie: > > I have not tried the Wi-Fi capabilities, so I cannot comment on > that aspect. What is relevant, however, is the news I received > from a reliable source that the 40 series inverter will be the > last residential inverter manufactured by SMA that will have an > on-board display. As evidence of this, look in the manual for a > 40 series or even a 22 series inverter- there is no description > at all of the display functions. Odd and disappointing. > > SMA should have a representative on this list. It may still be > Steve Jefferson, who is a stand-up guy. SMA, what say you about > these communications and display questions? > > Wrenches, if you think having an on-board display is important, > voice your opinion. If the Wi-Fi is problematic, this is not a > good direction. A lot of my clients are elderly and they are not > as adept at computer or device based operations. A display is > essential in my opinion. SMA, please don’t kill the display. > > William Miller > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Howie Michaelson > *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:16 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wifi > > I am looking for comments on the viability of the Wi-Fi option of > the new SB -40 inverters. I noticed some concern here about the > poor performance of this option and am trying to decide whether to > use it in the case of a long distance between the inverters and > the router. > > I can place a repeater between the inverters and as well as > purchase the external antenna option from SMA for the inverters, > but would like to have an idea ahead of buying and installing the > 2 antennas if this is likely to work. I do have the option of > running an Ethernet cable, but it is a long (500' +) and difficult > pull. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From corey at joule-energy.com Wed Dec 28 12:37:34 2016 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2016 11:37:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC in Same Trench? Message-ID: For some upcoming utility-scale projects our design team is wondering about placing direct-bury AC and DC circuits in the same trench. - Firstly, is this even *Code*-permissible? - Secondly, are there any common sense reasons (induced voltage/signal interference/etc) for not doing this? Thanks, Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 14:58:06 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2016 15:58:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC in Same Trench? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No problem with same trench, the requirements are that they are not in the same raceway. On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > For some upcoming utility-scale projects our design team is wondering > about placing direct-bury AC and DC circuits in the same trench. > - Firstly, is this even *Code*-permissible? > - Secondly, are there any common sense reasons (induced voltage/signal > interference/etc) for not doing this? > > Thanks, > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Dec 28 17:00:00 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2016 15:00:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC in Same Trench? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, you didn't specify, but AC and DC are specifically allowed in the same raceway per 300.3(C)(1). Only If the DC circuits are PV source or output circuits, then 690.31(B) prevails, which says they can't share a raceway. But again, as Chris mentions, this restriction does not apply to direct burial. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 12/28/2016 12:58 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > No problem with same trench, the requirements are that they are not in > the same raceway. > > On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Corey Shalanski > > wrote: > > For some upcoming utility-scale projects our design team is > wondering about placing direct-bury AC and DC circuits in the same > trench. > - Firstly, is this even /Code/-permissible? > - Secondly, are there any common sense reasons (induced > voltage/signal interference/etc) for not doing this? > > Thanks, > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 19:17:52 2016 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2016 14:17:52 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC in Same Trench? Message-ID: WrenchesAs a matter of practice, we always use conduite, never direct burial, always copper too, we have had AC and DC in the same trench but with space seperating the conduits and have had no issues with noise or JHA. As a safety issue we would not risk direct burial of high voltage DC regardless. Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Ray Walters Date: 12/28/16 12:00 PM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC in Same Trench? Also, you didn't specify, but AC and DC are specifically allowed in the same raceway per 300.3(C)(1).  Only If the DC circuits are PV source or output circuits, then 690.31(B) prevails, which says they can't share a raceway.  But again, as Chris mentions, this restriction does not apply to direct burial.  R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 12/28/2016 12:58 PM, Chris Mason wrote: No problem with same trench, the requirements are that they are not in the same raceway. On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: For some upcoming utility-scale projects our design team is wondering about placing direct-bury AC and DC circuits in the same trench. - Firstly, is this even Code-permissible? - Secondly, are there any common sense reasons (induced voltage/signal interference/etc) for not doing this? Thanks, Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 20:33:34 2016 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2016 17:33:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wi-Fi In-Reply-To: <00b1e78e603e037c44e4ee7b43e09410@mail.gmail.com> References: <00b1e78e603e037c44e4ee7b43e09410@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I fully agree that some sort of display/interface is crucial to making our lives easier. We do many remote applications, as well as just having horrible internet service in our area and many installations have no---> internet, cell service, WiFi, etc.. it would be a shame to limit ourselves.. Joe Nelson On Dec 15, 2016 13:22, "William Miller" wrote: > Howie: > > > > I have not tried the Wi-Fi capabilities, so I cannot comment on that > aspect. What is relevant, however, is the news I received from a reliable > source that the 40 series inverter will be the last residential inverter > manufactured by SMA that will have an on-board display. As evidence of > this, look in the manual for a 40 series or even a 22 series inverter- > there is no description at all of the display functions. Odd and > disappointing. > > > > SMA should have a representative on this list. It may still be Steve > Jefferson, who is a stand-up guy. SMA, what say you about these > communications and display questions? > > > > Wrenches, if you think having an on-board display is important, voice your > opinion. If the Wi-Fi is problematic, this is not a good direction. A lot > of my clients are elderly and they are not as adept at computer or device > based operations. A display is essential in my opinion. SMA, please don’t > kill the display. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson > *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:16 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wifi > > > > I am looking for comments on the viability of the Wi-Fi option of the new > SB -40 inverters. I noticed some concern here about the poor performance of > this option and am trying to decide whether to use it in the case of a long > distance between the inverters and the router. > > I can place a repeater between the inverters and as well as purchase the > external antenna option from SMA for the inverters, but would like to have > an idea ahead of buying and installing the 2 antennas if this is likely to > work. I do have the option of running an Ethernet cable, but it is a long > (500' +) and difficult pull. Any comments or suggestions would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Sun Catcher > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > 802-272-0004 <(802)%20272-0004> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Dec 29 14:27:16 2016 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 09:27:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware Message-ID: Wrenches, I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120 to 240 as well as the diesel genset. After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various buildings checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc… Surprisingly although not great workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder confirmed that there was no setting I was missing. I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing them but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce the error. The inverter is following the frequency of the genset as it winds down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer inside the inverter has happened. During the cool down period everything is fine. This happens as the genset is actual shutting off and spinning down to a stop. They say this a firmware issue and that it will take months to push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went belly up on the low frequency voltage, there is concern about possible unseen damage to her new water pump, and I wasted countless hours of my own time attempting to make the situation right. All of this due to a firmware that was released with a fatal flaw and can not be changed for months. I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use them over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My “beta” test went will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so I figured it was a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned stick with Outback and SMA. So I have 2 questions for the list. 1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it regardless of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 2 years ago when it first came out. The setup is very similar except that it is 48V and has a very old firmware. I went out to this old site to confirm all is well and it is fine. 2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help? I tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago, but her phone number no longer works. 3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around they could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions. Any input is greatly appreciated! Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 440 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Dec 29 15:35:07 2016 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 13:35:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5cf78367-6723-1d06-30c1-19acbe65edef@solarray.com> I've seen similar weirdness with many systems of various brands. The=20 issue seems to be having the generator shutting down while still under=20 load, with as you noted, the frequency and voltage dropping, and the=20 inverter not transferring quick enough. Basically I suggest to my customers having similar problems to: A) First, wait for the charge rate to come down, then B) shut down any other large loads, (ie wait for the water pump to=20 finish pumping) then C) manually switch the generator Breaker off, which allows a cleaner,=20 quicker transfer. Some generators have a cool down period after being signaled to shut=20 off, which solves the problem, too. Having auto control just shut down=20 the generator hard under load is always going to be rough. I wouldn't=20 blame it all on Schneider, although it sounds like in your case the=20 Conext is extending the low frequency time period, and making it even worse. A relay might fix the problem too: first have the relay transfer the=20 loads, and then send the signal to shut down the generator after. Besides the firmware issue, I think you're noticing this problem more,=20 because of all the new arc fault junk in the house. IMHO, arc fault=20 shouldn't even be required on off grid systems with less than 70 amps=20 capacity. Unless they've recently changed the UL testing, arc fault=20 breakers need a min of 70 amp to even work properly. Of course they're=20 annoyingly easy to trip when the frequency and voltage get weird, so off=20 grid all those arc fault breakers are Not going to trip when they=20 should, but Will trip when they shouldn't. More waste of time and money=20 off grid. Again, just my opinion. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 12/29/2016 12:27 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > Wrenches, > > I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC=20 > Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to=20 > be a straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW=20 > setup. The actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house=20 > wiring from 120 to 240 as well as the diesel genset. > > After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week=20 > later she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is=20 > shutting down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the=20 > compressor on her fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45=20 > minute drive out and started my search. This is a site with 3=20 > buildings on 3 acres. I double checked all my wiring at the inverter,=20 > then moved onto the various buildings checking for redundant neutral=20 > to grounds, proper bonding, etc=E2=80=A6 Surprisingly although not great = > workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I decided to=20 > give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at=20 > this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was=20 > unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder=20 > confirmed that there was no setting I was missing. > > I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have=20 > continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing=20 > them but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce=20 > the error. The inverter is following the frequency of the genset as it=20 > winds down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer inside the=20 > inverter has happened. During the cool down period everything is fine.=20 > This happens as the genset is actual shutting off and spinning down to=20 > a stop. They say this a firmware issue and that it will take months to=20 > push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the meantime I have a pissed=20 > off client, her oven went belly up on the low frequency voltage, there=20 > is concern about possible unseen damage to her new water pump, and I=20 > wasted countless hours of my own time attempting to make the=20 > situation right. All of this due to a firmware that was released with=20 > a fatal flaw and can not be changed for months. > > I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use=20 > them over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My=20 > =E2=80=9Cbeta=E2=80=9D test went will with a early version I installed 2 = years ago so=20 > I figured it was a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned=20 > stick with Outback and SMA. > > So I have 2 questions for the list. > > 1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it=20 > regardless of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about=20 > 2 years ago when it first came out. The setup is very similar except=20 > that it is 48V and has a very old firmware. I went out to this old=20 > site to confirm all is well and it is fine. > > 2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help?=20 > I tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago,=20 > but her phone number no longer works. > > 3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around=20 > they could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions. > > Any input is greatly appreciated! > > Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me. > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 15:03:11 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 12:03:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C990BDE-4B7B-4033-A967-379E86D58B2F@gmail.com> Hi Lou, I might suggest a relay that switches with the signal for ags start/stop. It'll disconnect the AC from the genset with a lot shorter delay. Jay Peltz power. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 29, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120 to 240 as well as the diesel genset. > > After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various buildings checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc… Surprisingly although not great workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder confirmed that there was no setting I was missing. > > I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing them but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce the error. The inverter is following the frequency of the genset as it winds down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer inside the inverter has happened. During the cool down period everything is fine. This happens as the genset is actual shutting off and spinning down to a stop. They say this a firmware issue and that it will take months to push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went belly up on the low frequency voltage, there is concern about possible unseen damage to her new water pump, and I wasted countless hours of my own time attempting to make the situation right. All of this due to a firmware that was released with a fatal flaw and can not be changed for months. > > I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use them over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My “beta” test went will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so I figured it was a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned stick with Outback and SMA. > > So I have 2 questions for the list. > > 1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it regardless of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 2 years ago when it first came out. The setup is very similar except that it is 48V and has a very old firmware. I went out to this old site to confirm all is well and it is fine. > > 2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help? I tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago, but her phone number no longer works. > > 3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around they could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions. > > Any input is greatly appreciated! > > Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me. > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Dec 29 15:59:27 2016 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 12:59:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lou: I am sorry to hear about your situation. Too often the installer is stuck in the middle between equipment that does not perform as it should and the customers that experience the problems. I have a system with similar problems, although it is an Outback system. The facility is an off-grid state highway maintenance station. The loads are large, the PV small and therefore requires two generator run time per day. The load profile shows peak loads in mornings and evenings. We figured the best way to accommodate this profile was to have two must-run periods per day. The Outback equipment does not support two must-run cycles per day. The generator runs were achieved by using an external time clock set for two closures per day. The problem is the generator shuts down without the system knowing. If the system knew about the shutdown, it would disconnect first and stop generator second. If your inverter is starting and stopping the generator, it should disconnect first. If it is not doing so, the logic is faulty. This may be what the firmware fails to do. If so, this is a very basic flaw in the firmware. This concept is quite old and should have been incorporated in the system without second thought. In our case, the generator shutdown generates a lot of error codes due to decaying voltage and frequency. We minimized the errors by shortening the transfer delay. If this parameter exists in the Conext system, it may be called something different from the term Outback uses, so you will have to determine for yourself if this adjustment exists. If you find it, set it to transfer at a high threshold (nearer 120/240 at 60 hertz) and as quickly as possible. This may not be possible, but see if you can adjust your way out of this problem. Good luck. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lou Russo *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2016 11:27 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware Wrenches, I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120 to 240 as well as the diesel genset. After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various buildings checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc… Surprisingly although not great workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder confirmed that there was no setting I was missing. I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing them but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce the error. The inverter is following the frequency of the genset as it winds down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer inside the inverter has happened. During the cool down period everything is fine. This happens as the genset is actual shutting off and spinning down to a stop. They say this a firmware issue and that it will take months to push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went belly up on the low frequency voltage, there is concern about possible unseen damage to her new water pump, and I wasted countless hours of my own time attempting to make the situation right. All of this due to a firmware that was released with a fatal flaw and can not be changed for months. I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use them over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My “beta” test went will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so I figured it was a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned stick with Outback and SMA. So I have 2 questions for the list. 1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it regardless of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 2 years ago when it first came out. The setup is very similar except that it is 48V and has a very old firmware. I went out to this old site to confirm all is well and it is fine. 2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help? I tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago, but her phone number no longer works. 3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around they could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions. Any input is greatly appreciated! Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 440 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Dec 29 17:34:17 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 17:34:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44AC0123-30FA-450C-8042-58F2752E1D31@swnl.net> Firmware version? What is the generator low voltage set point set to? If it is a good quality get set this should be set ~110-112 VAC that way when the gen set is unloading/shutting off, the inverter will switch at that voltage from gen set to inverter. you also have a Hz set point for the genset to latch/unlatch that apparently it is not disconnecting. 55hz. 80 VAC for AC2, I believe is the default. > On Dec 29, 2016, at 2:27 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120 to 240 as well as the diesel genset. > > After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various buildings checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc… Surprisingly although not great workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder confirmed that there was no setting I was missing. > > I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing them but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce the error. The inverter is following the frequency of the genset as it winds down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer inside the inverter has happened. During the cool down period everything is fine. This happens as the genset is actual shutting off and spinning down to a stop. They say this a firmware issue and that it will take months to push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went belly up on the low frequency voltage, there is concern about possible unseen damage to her new water pump, and I wasted countless hours of my own time attempting to make the situation right. All of this due to a firmware that was released with a fatal flaw and can not be changed for months. > > I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use them over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My “beta” test went will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so I figured it was a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned stick with Outback and SMA. > > So I have 2 questions for the list. > > 1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it regardless of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 2 years ago when it first came out. The setup is very similar except that it is 48V and has a very old firmware. I went out to this old site to confirm all is well and it is fine. > > 2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help? I tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago, but her phone number no longer works. > > 3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around they could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions. > > Any input is greatly appreciated! > > Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me. > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 440 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 17:40:03 2016 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 17:40:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding/bonding question for 200A main breaker service disconnect Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Is anyone familiar with the type of main disconnect shown in this picture? I need to figure out if the GEC is bonded to the box or not. A supply side connection has been made in the box, and the only grounding for the PV system is via the green EGC on the new terminal strip. I am inspecting this as a third party, and did not perform the installation. I cannot tell if the GEC (the bare copper) is bonded to the box via the (apparently) isolated terminal where the neutral and main panel EGC (the bare aluminum) are landed. The green wire on the grounding terminal at the bottom left is the EGC running to the supply-side connected PV system AC fused disconnect, but the PV system will not actually be grounded (um, *at all*) unless the GEC is bonded to the box through that black plastic neutral block, which appears to be isolated with cardboard. There is no other connection to physical earth except the bare copper GEC. Checked with the meter and got continuity from the green to bare wire, but that could be because the bare aluminum EGC is touching the box in multiple places. It may be that the GEC is bonded via a back-mounted screw to the box, but I just can't tell what's going on with this design or what is supposed to be happening. That tab to the right of the bare copper GEC does not actually touch the terminal above it as you can see from the second picture, unless it is a connection in the plastic. [image: Inline image 1]. [image: Inline image 3] Thanks for any insight! Rebekah -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2016-12-29 at 5.27.40 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 628444 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3660.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 550661 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Dec 29 18:00:28 2016 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 16:00:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware In-Reply-To: <5cf78367-6723-1d06-30c1-19acbe65edef@solarray.com> References: <5cf78367-6723-1d06-30c1-19acbe65edef@solarray.com> Message-ID: <76078a60-da5a-4ec3-ac54-5fbcc0712a6a@sindelarsolar.com> Lou, I would add that this problem could be solved by removing any auto gen=20 start function and controlling the generator manually. Then the default=20 start/stop procedure is user-controlled: check monitor/start=20 gennie/check operation; when done, turn off charging at SCP/cool=20 down/shut off gennie. Voila! no low-hertz glitches. I have long=20 discouraged auto-start in residential off grid systems, recommending=20 instead user involvement and manual operation of the gennie. I have installed several SW Conext systems, so far without a single=20 issue after commissioning. I applaud Schneider's efforts to turn the=20 wreckage that they paid Xantrex way too much for into a decent product=20 line with good support. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* ** On 12/29/2016 1:35 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > I've seen similar weirdness with many systems of various brands. The=20 > issue seems to be having the generator shutting down while still under=20 > load, with as you noted, the frequency and voltage dropping, and the=20 > inverter not transferring quick enough. > Basically I suggest to my customers having similar problems to: > A) First, wait for the charge rate to come down, then > B) shut down any other large loads, (ie wait for the water pump to=20 > finish pumping) then > C) manually switch the generator Breaker off, which allows a cleaner,=20 > quicker transfer. > > Some generators have a cool down period after being signaled to shut=20 > off, which solves the problem, too. Having auto control just shut=20 > down the generator hard under load is always going to be rough. I=20 > wouldn't blame it all on Schneider, although it sounds like in your=20 > case the Conext is extending the low frequency time period, and making=20 > it even worse. > A relay might fix the problem too: first have the relay transfer the=20 > loads, and then send the signal to shut down the generator after. > > Besides the firmware issue, I think you're noticing this problem more,=20 > because of all the new arc fault junk in the house. IMHO, arc fault=20 > shouldn't even be required on off grid systems with less than 70 amps=20 > capacity. Unless they've recently changed the UL testing, arc fault=20 > breakers need a min of 70 amp to even work properly. Of course=20 > they're annoyingly easy to trip when the frequency and voltage get=20 > weird, so off grid all those arc fault breakers are Not going to trip=20 > when they should, but Will trip when they shouldn't. More waste of=20 > time and money off grid. Again, just my opinion. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 12/29/2016 12:27 PM, Lou Russo wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC=20 >> Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was=20 >> to be a straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW=20 >> setup. The actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house=20 >> wiring from 120 to 240 as well as the diesel genset. >> >> After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week=20 >> later she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is=20 >> shutting down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the=20 >> compressor on her fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45=20 >> minute drive out and started my search. This is a site with 3=20 >> buildings on 3 acres. I double checked all my wiring at the inverter,=20 >> then moved onto the various buildings checking for redundant neutral=20 >> to grounds, proper bonding, etc=E2=80=A6 Surprisingly although not great= =20 >> workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I decided to=20 >> give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at=20 >> this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was=20 >> unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder=20 >> confirmed that there was no setting I was missing. >> >> I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have=20 >> continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing=20 >> them but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can=20 >> reproduce the error. The inverter is following the frequency of the=20 >> genset as it winds down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer=20 >> inside the inverter has happened. During the cool down period=20 >> everything is fine. This happens as the genset is actual shutting off=20 >> and spinning down to a stop. They say this a firmware issue and that=20 >> it will take months to push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the=20 >> meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went belly up on the=20 >> low frequency voltage, there is concern about possible unseen damage=20 >> to her new water pump, and I wasted countless hours of my own time=20 >> attempting to make the situation right. All of this due to a firmware=20 >> that was released with a fatal flaw and can not be changed for months. >> >> I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use=20 >> them over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My=20 >> =E2=80=9Cbeta=E2=80=9D test went will with a early version I installed 2= years ago so=20 >> I figured it was a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned=20 >> stick with Outback and SMA. >> >> So I have 2 questions for the list. >> >> 1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it=20 >> regardless of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw=20 >> about 2 years ago when it first came out. The setup is very similar=20 >> except that it is 48V and has a very old firmware. I went out to this=20 >> old site to confirm all is well and it is fine. >> >> 2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of=20 >> help? I tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years=20 >> ago, but her phone number no longer works. >> >> 3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying=20 >> around they could point me to? The website does not seem to have old=20 >> versions. >> >> Any input is greatly appreciated! >> >> Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me. >> >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 440 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Dec 29 18:31:01 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 15:31:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding/bonding question for 200A main breaker service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rebekah, If in doubt, it won’t hurt to run a bonding jumper from the neutral block to the new ground bar. Check out NEC 250.92 if you haven’t already. That neutral block you show in your picture clearly has an insulating gasket behind it and it is really hard to tell if the screw is intended to ground it to the can or not. We have to do a bonkers amount of grounding here in San Francisco so have become very familiar with all the little ins and outs of grounding (at least how San Francisco wants it). I like the Soares Book of Grounding as a visual backup to the NEC: https://www.amazon.com/Soares-Book-Grounding-Bonding-2014-NEC/dp/1890659657 Cheers, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2016 2:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Grounding/bonding question for 200A main breaker service disconnect Hi Wrenches, Is anyone familiar with the type of main disconnect shown in this picture? I need to figure out if the GEC is bonded to the box or not. A supply side connection has been made in the box, and the only grounding for the PV system is via the green EGC on the new terminal strip. I am inspecting this as a third party, and did not perform the installation. I cannot tell if the GEC (the bare copper) is bonded to the box via the (apparently) isolated terminal where the neutral and main panel EGC (the bare aluminum) are landed. The green wire on the grounding terminal at the bottom left is the EGC running to the supply-side connected PV system AC fused disconnect, but the PV system will not actually be grounded (um, *at all*) unless the GEC is bonded to the box through that black plastic neutral block, which appears to be isolated with cardboard. There is no other connection to physical earth except the bare copper GEC. Checked with the meter and got continuity from the green to bare wire, but that could be because the bare aluminum EGC is touching the box in multiple places. It may be that the GEC is bonded via a back-mounted screw to the box, but I just can't tell what's going on with this design or what is supposed to be happening. That tab to the right of the bare copper GEC does not actually touch the terminal above it as you can see from the second picture, unless it is a connection in the plastic. [image: Inline image 1]. [image: Inline image 3] Thanks for any insight! Rebekah -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24691 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 300388 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Dec 29 19:43:31 2016 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 14:43:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware In-Reply-To: References: <5cf78367-6723-1d06-30c1-19acbe65edef@solarray.com> <76078a60-da5a-4ec3-ac54-5fbcc0712a6a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks to all for the input and suggestions, it is much appreciated. Just to be clear about the situation, the inverter has already made the AC transfer, which goes smoothly. The AC IN light is off. At this point the generator is unloaded and there is no battery charging happening. The inverter is carrying the loads. From what Schnieder tells me is that the software is telling the inverter to follow the Hertz of the generator until it's below 40 Hertz. I do believe that manual start is best as it keeps the user in tune with system. It is what I do at my own home. Unfortunately most clients want the autostart and don't want to think about it. This is typically not deal breaker for me and I will push a client only so far on it. In this particular situation the system is 500 ft away from the home. So the autostart is mandatory. And Allan do you happen to know what the firmware version of the inverters and AGS units are that you recently installed? Oh and by the way I have come to find out that Sandra no longer works there. Thanks again for all the help On Dec 29, 2016 1:01 PM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: Lou, I would add that this problem could be solved by removing any auto gen start function and controlling the generator manually. Then the default start/stop procedure is user-controlled: check monitor/start gennie/check operation; when done, turn off charging at SCP/cool down/shut off gennie. Voila! no low-hertz glitches. I have long discouraged auto-start in residential off grid systems, recommending instead user involvement and manual operation of the gennie. I have installed several SW Conext systems, so far without a single issue after commissioning. I applaud Schneider's efforts to turn the wreckage that they paid Xantrex way too much for into a decent product line with good support. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell* On 12/29/2016 1:35 PM, Ray Walters wrote: I've seen similar weirdness with many systems of various brands. The issue seems to be having the generator shutting down while still under load, with as you noted, the frequency and voltage dropping, and the inverter not transferring quick enough. Basically I suggest to my customers having similar problems to: A) First, wait for the charge rate to come down, then B) shut down any other large loads, (ie wait for the water pump to finish pumping) then C) manually switch the generator Breaker off, which allows a cleaner, quicker transfer. Some generators have a cool down period after being signaled to shut off, which solves the problem, too. Having auto control just shut down the generator hard under load is always going to be rough. I wouldn't blame it all on Schneider, although it sounds like in your case the Conext is extending the low frequency time period, and making it even worse. A relay might fix the problem too: first have the relay transfer the loads, and then send the signal to shut down the generator after. Besides the firmware issue, I think you're noticing this problem more, because of all the new arc fault junk in the house. IMHO, arc fault shouldn't even be required on off grid systems with less than 70 amps capacity. Unless they've recently changed the UL testing, arc fault breakers need a min of 70 amp to even work properly. Of course they're annoyingly easy to trip when the frequency and voltage get weird, so off grid all those arc fault breakers are Not going to trip when they should, but Will trip when they shouldn't. More waste of time and money off grid. Again, just my opinion. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760> On 12/29/2016 12:27 PM, Lou Russo wrote: Wrenches, I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120 to 240 as well as the diesel genset. After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various buildings checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc… Surprisingly although not great workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder confirmed that there was no setting I was missing. I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing them but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce the error. The inverter is following the frequency of the genset as it winds down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer inside the inverter has happened. During the cool down period everything is fine. This happens as the genset is actual shutting off and spinning down to a stop. They say this a firmware issue and that it will take months to push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went belly up on the low frequency voltage, there is concern about possible unseen damage to her new water pump, and I wasted countless hours of my own time attempting to make the situation right. All of this due to a firmware that was released with a fatal flaw and can not be changed for months. I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use them over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My “beta” test went will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so I figured it was a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned stick with Outback and SMA. So I have 2 questions for the list. 1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it regardless of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 2 years ago when it first came out. The setup is very similar except that it is 48V and has a very old firmware. I went out to this old site to confirm all is well and it is fine. 2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help? I tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago, but her phone number no longer works. 3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around they could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions. Any input is greatly appreciated! Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 440 345 6762 <(440)%20345-6762> Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Dec 29 19:45:13 2016 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 16:45:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding/bonding question for 200A main breaker service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Incidentally, it looks like someone doubled up on the neutrals to the neutral lugs/terminals. Those lugs may not be listed for multiple conductors, but it may be worth checking if you are indeed inspecting this system. We use a c-taps (and sometimes h-taps for copper to aluminum) to fix up grounding when terminals have limited spaces. https://www.burndy.com/solutions/compression-terminals/copper-taps August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2016 2:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Grounding/bonding question for 200A main breaker service disconnect Hi Wrenches, Is anyone familiar with the type of main disconnect shown in this picture? I need to figure out if the GEC is bonded to the box or not. A supply side connection has been made in the box, and the only grounding for the PV system is via the green EGC on the new terminal strip. I am inspecting this as a third party, and did not perform the installation. I cannot tell if the GEC (the bare copper) is bonded to the box via the (apparently) isolated terminal where the neutral and main panel EGC (the bare aluminum) are landed. The green wire on the grounding terminal at the bottom left is the EGC running to the supply-side connected PV system AC fused disconnect, but the PV system will not actually be grounded (um, *at all*) unless the GEC is bonded to the box through that black plastic neutral block, which appears to be isolated with cardboard. There is no other connection to physical earth except the bare copper GEC. Checked with the meter and got continuity from the green to bare wire, but that could be because the bare aluminum EGC is touching the box in multiple places. It may be that the GEC is bonded via a back-mounted screw to the box, but I just can't tell what's going on with this design or what is supposed to be happening. That tab to the right of the bare copper GEC does not actually touch the terminal above it as you can see from the second picture, unless it is a connection in the plastic. [image: Inline image 1]. [image: Inline image 3] Thanks for any insight! Rebekah -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24691 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 300388 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 19:15:51 2016 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 16:15:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding/bonding question for 200A main breaker service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like there is a bonding screw just below where the bare equipment grounding conductor lands? That bonds that grounding lugs set to the panel enclosure. You can always do a continuity test from point to point to determine if they are bonded. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Dec 29, 2016, at 3:31 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Rebekah, > > If in doubt, it won’t hurt to run a bonding jumper from the neutral block to the new ground bar. Check out NEC 250.92 if you haven’t already. > > That neutral block you show in your picture clearly has an insulating gasket behind it and it is really hard to tell if the screw is intended to ground it to the can or not. > > We have to do a bonkers amount of grounding here in San Francisco so have become very familiar with all the little ins and outs of grounding (at least how San Francisco wants it). I like the Soares Book of Grounding as a visual backup to the NEC: > > https://www.amazon.com/Soares-Book-Grounding-Bonding-2014-NEC/dp/1890659657 > > Cheers, > > August > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Rebekah Hren > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 2:40 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding/bonding question for 200A main breaker service disconnect > > Hi Wrenches, > Is anyone familiar with the type of main disconnect shown in this picture? I need to figure out if the GEC is bonded to the box or not. A supply side connection has been made in the box, and the only grounding for the PV system is via the green EGC on the new terminal strip. I am inspecting this as a third party, and did not perform the installation. > > I cannot tell if the GEC (the bare copper) is bonded to the box via the (apparently) isolated terminal where the neutral and main panel EGC (the bare aluminum) are landed. > > The green wire on the grounding terminal at the bottom left is the EGC running to the supply-side connected PV system AC fused disconnect, but the PV system will not actually be grounded (um, at all) unless the GEC is bonded to the box through that black plastic neutral block, which appears to be isolated with cardboard. There is no other connection to physical earth except the bare copper GEC. > > Checked with the meter and got continuity from the green to bare wire, but that could be because the bare aluminum EGC is touching the box in multiple places. > > It may be that the GEC is bonded via a back-mounted screw to the box, but I just can't tell what's going on with this design or what is supposed to be happening. That tab to the right of the bare copper GEC does not actually touch the terminal above it as you can see from the second picture, unless it is a connection in the plastic. > > . > > > > Thanks for any insight! > > > > Rebekah > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 20:31:55 2016 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 20:31:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding/bonding question for 200A main breaker service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks August, yeah I noticed that double lug, but that's from an existing service (well like 40 years old) and just got reinspected by the AHJ so I thought I wouldn't rock that boat. I definitely agree they should add a bonding jumper to the new terminal strip, regardless of wears with that insulated block it will be a good addition! Thanks, happy new year! On Dec 29, 2016 7:45 PM, "August Goers" wrote: Incidentally, it looks like someone doubled up on the neutrals to the neutral lugs/terminals. Those lugs may not be listed for multiple conductors, but it may be worth checking if you are indeed inspecting this system. We use a c-taps (and sometimes h-taps for copper to aluminum) to fix up grounding when terminals have limited spaces. https://www.burndy.com/solutions/compression-terminals/copper-taps August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2016 2:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Grounding/bonding question for 200A main breaker service disconnect Hi Wrenches, Is anyone familiar with the type of main disconnect shown in this picture? I need to figure out if the GEC is bonded to the box or not. A supply side connection has been made in the box, and the only grounding for the PV system is via the green EGC on the new terminal strip. I am inspecting this as a third party, and did not perform the installation. I cannot tell if the GEC (the bare copper) is bonded to the box via the (apparently) isolated terminal where the neutral and main panel EGC (the bare aluminum) are landed. The green wire on the grounding terminal at the bottom left is the EGC running to the supply-side connected PV system AC fused disconnect, but the PV system will not actually be grounded (um, *at all*) unless the GEC is bonded to the box through that black plastic neutral block, which appears to be isolated with cardboard. There is no other connection to physical earth except the bare copper GEC. Checked with the meter and got continuity from the green to bare wire, but that could be because the bare aluminum EGC is touching the box in multiple places. It may be that the GEC is bonded via a back-mounted screw to the box, but I just can't tell what's going on with this design or what is supposed to be happening. That tab to the right of the bare copper GEC does not actually touch the terminal above it as you can see from the second picture, unless it is a connection in the plastic. [image: Inline image 1]. [image: Inline image 3] Thanks for any insight! Rebekah -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24691 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 300388 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk Fri Dec 30 04:13:25 2016 From: hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk (Hugh Piggott) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 09:13:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware In-Reply-To: References: <5cf78367-6723-1d06-30c1-19acbe65edef@solarray.com> <76078a60-da5a-4ec3-ac54-5fbcc0712a6a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <3F7CA2F4-CC1A-40D0-8D80-1CB7B15B21A3@scoraigwind.co.uk> hi Lou, I don’t wish to contradict this version of events but if true then it will make the inverter unsuitable for most generators. Here is another scenario I have seen a few times that looks similar but can be fixed. The inverter charges the battery etc. and decides to turn off the generator. It disconnects. It may or may not have its own “cool down” time for the generator. It then tells the generator to stop. At this point the generator control circuit may decide to run a further cool down period. Meantime incoming AC voltage is still visible to the inverter. The inverter may then decide that it is obliged to connect to this running generator. After any chosen “warm up period” it may go ahead and synch with the running generator and start to draw power just before and during the point where fuel is shut off and it dies. This causes power quality problems and errors in some inverters. Maybe better firmware could fix this. Victron inverters are designed to disconnect on a falling voltage every time, and they do so gracefully. With SMA inverters and Outbacks it’s better avoided. The best fix for this is to make sure that the generator does not have its own cool down period. If you can access and edit this parameter in the generator this is best. Another fix is to set a longer warmup time in the inverter software but this can cause issues where the generator is being started to meet a high load. In the case of an SMA inverter you can get a fix to it using “genman mode”. I just wonder if you have witnessed the process and checked whether the generator’s own built-in cool down period could be the cause. cheers Hugh > On 30 Dec 2016, at 00:43, Lou Russo wrote: > > Thanks to all for the input and suggestions, it is much appreciated. Just to be clear about the situation, the inverter has already made the AC transfer, which goes smoothly. The AC IN light is off. At this point the generator is unloaded and there is no battery charging happening. The inverter is carrying the loads. From what Schnieder tells me is that the software is telling the inverter to follow the Hertz of the generator until it's below 40 Hertz. > > I do believe that manual start is best as it keeps the user in tune with system. It is what I do at my own home. Unfortunately most clients want the autostart and don't want to think about it. This is typically not deal breaker for me and I will push a client only so far on it. In this particular situation the system is 500 ft away from the home. So the autostart is mandatory. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 09:14:48 2016 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (Dave Palumbo) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 09:14:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6 Message-ID: <012b01d262a7$1516ec50$3f44c4f0$@com> Wrenches, I have a 6 kW Generac EcoGen (1,300 hrs on it) with a new problem. . After swapping in a new battery the other day the generator now starts and runs when its start switch is positioned to Auto. . The OutBack inverter w Mate2 is not calling for an auto start. . Even when the EcoGen is disconnected from the off grid house it still starts and runs every time the start switch is set to Auto. How do I clear this problem and get this gen back to normal? Thanks and Happy New Year, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Fri Dec 30 18:46:17 2016 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 17:46:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6 In-Reply-To: <012b01d262a7$1516ec50$3f44c4f0$@com> References: <012b01d262a7$1516ec50$3f44c4f0$@com> Message-ID: <579b0c3c-85ed-108c-f254-a49053eb0d09@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dana at solarwork.com Fri Dec 30 19:27:42 2016 From: Dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 17:27:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6 In-Reply-To: <012b01d262a7$1516ec50$3f44c4f0$@com> References: <012b01d262a7$1516ec50$3f44c4f0$@com> Message-ID: <002b01d262fc$b43af8d0$1cb0ea70$@com> Thia could be rodent related I suggest a continuity test. I have seen this many times on gens out in sheds. We have had to run the 2 wire gen start in MC several times on older installs with heavy rodent populations ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel - Great Solar Works, Inc - C - 208.721.7003 NABCEP # 051112-136 : Idaho PV Licence # 028374 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Palumbo Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 7:15 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6 Wrenches, I have a 6 kW Generac EcoGen (1,300 hrs on it) with a new problem. . After swapping in a new battery the other day the generator now starts and runs when its start switch is positioned to Auto. . The OutBack inverter w Mate2 is not calling for an auto start. . Even when the EcoGen is disconnected from the off grid house it still starts and runs every time the start switch is set to Auto. How do I clear this problem and get this gen back to normal? Thanks and Happy New Year, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dan at Foxfire-Energy.com Fri Dec 30 20:32:43 2016 From: Dan at Foxfire-Energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 20:32:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6 In-Reply-To: <012b01d262a7$1516ec50$3f44c4f0$@com> References: <012b01d262a7$1516ec50$3f44c4f0$@com> Message-ID: <54FD62A8-6EFF-4096-8E96-4CB1B7861D75@Foxfire-Energy.com> I'm thinking if this Oopsie just started since the battery swap, it's most likely a connection issue.. maybe a wire got tweaked and shorts that start circuit somehow Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com > On Dec 30, 2016, at 9:14 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I have a 6 kW Generac EcoGen (1,300 hrs on it) with a new problem. > · After swapping in a new battery the other day the generator now starts and runs when its start switch is positioned to Auto. > · The OutBack inverter w Mate2 is not calling for an auto start. > · Even when the EcoGen is disconnected from the off grid house it still starts and runs every time the start switch is set to Auto. > > How do I clear this problem and get this gen back to normal? > > Thanks and Happy New Year, > Dave > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > 802-888-4917 home > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 11:44:59 2016 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 12:44:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6 In-Reply-To: <012b01d262a7$1516ec50$3f44c4f0$@com> References: <012b01d262a7$1516ec50$3f44c4f0$@com> Message-ID: Does it ruin for 20 mins then stop? Exercise. On Dec 30, 2016 10:14, "Dave Palumbo" wrote: > Wrenches, > > > > I have a 6 kW Generac EcoGen (1,300 hrs on it) with a new problem. > > · After swapping in a new battery the other day the generator > now starts and runs when its start switch is positioned to Auto. > > · The OutBack inverter w Mate2 is not calling for an auto start. > > · Even when the EcoGen is disconnected from the off grid house it > still starts and runs every time the start switch is set to Auto. > > > > How do I clear this problem and get this gen back to normal? > > > > Thanks and Happy New Year, > > Dave > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 <(802)%20371-8678> cell > > 802-888-4917 <(802)%20888-4917> home > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 12:39:32 2016 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 09:39:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware In-Reply-To: <3F7CA2F4-CC1A-40D0-8D80-1CB7B15B21A3@scoraigwind.co.uk> References: <5cf78367-6723-1d06-30c1-19acbe65edef@solarray.com> <76078a60-da5a-4ec3-ac54-5fbcc0712a6a@sindelarsolar.com> <3F7CA2F4-CC1A-40D0-8D80-1CB7B15B21A3@scoraigwind.co.uk> Message-ID: HI Hugh, Interesting problem your describe which I've not seen before. I’m curious about your comments on Outback. I’ve found them to be quite programable in regards to disconnecting from a generator. You can set voltage and cycles. Default comes in at 60 cycles which is 1 second and way too long. Setting it down to around 10 cycles works with every generator I’ve tried, and from my measurements the inverter seems to be switching on cycles, not voltage. But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying? But I know in the old days before inverters got so programable ( or poorly programed in the case of the new SW) that out here on the west coast we installed a contactor which was controlled via either AGS or manual remote start. It shuts the AC off in a hard way yes, and you sure might get a light flicker but you don’t get the voltage/Hz sag being a problem here. And I’m not sure but seems to me that some of the older generators used to come with an internal contactor that did this? But none that I’m seeing now do. Maybe others can comment on that. And finally I’m curious about how important the cool down period is. How I set my generator run times, by the time its told to shut down its not running all that hard, which shouldn’t be a problem. But again, I’ll defer to the genny experts here. Happy new year jay > On Dec 30, 2016, at 1:13 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote: > > hi Lou, > > I don’t wish to contradict this version of events but if true then it will make the inverter unsuitable for most generators. Here is another scenario I have seen a few times that looks similar but can be fixed. > > The inverter charges the battery etc. and decides to turn off the generator. It disconnects. It may or may not have its own “cool down” time for the generator. It then tells the generator to stop. At this point the generator control circuit may decide to run a further cool down period. Meantime incoming AC voltage is still visible to the inverter. The inverter may then decide that it is obliged to connect to this running generator. After any chosen “warm up period” it may go ahead and synch with the running generator and start to draw power just before and during the point where fuel is shut off and it dies. This causes power quality problems and errors in some inverters. Maybe better firmware could fix this. Victron inverters are designed to disconnect on a falling voltage every time, and they do so gracefully. With SMA inverters and Outbacks it’s better avoided. > > The best fix for this is to make sure that the generator does not have its own cool down period. If you can access and edit this parameter in the generator this is best. Another fix is to set a longer warmup time in the inverter software but this can cause issues where the generator is being started to meet a high load. In the case of an SMA inverter you can get a fix to it using “genman mode”. > > I just wonder if you have witnessed the process and checked whether the generator’s own built-in cool down period could be the cause. > > cheers > Hugh > >> On 30 Dec 2016, at 00:43, Lou Russo > wrote: >> >> Thanks to all for the input and suggestions, it is much appreciated. Just to be clear about the situation, the inverter has already made the AC transfer, which goes smoothly. The AC IN light is off. At this point the generator is unloaded and there is no battery charging happening. The inverter is carrying the loads. From what Schnieder tells me is that the software is telling the inverter to follow the Hertz of the generator until it's below 40 Hertz. >> >> I do believe that manual start is best as it keeps the user in tune with system. It is what I do at my own home. Unfortunately most clients want the autostart and don't want to think about it. This is typically not deal breaker for me and I will push a client only so far on it. In this particular situation the system is 500 ft away from the home. So the autostart is mandatory. >> >> > > _________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Sat Dec 31 17:46:12 2016 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 17:46:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware In-Reply-To: References: <5cf78367-6723-1d06-30c1-19acbe65edef@solarray.com> <76078a60-da5a-4ec3-ac54-5fbcc0712a6a@sindelarsolar.com> <3F7CA2F4-CC1A-40D0-8D80-1CB7B15B21A3@scoraigwind.co.uk> Message-ID: <33DE5429-1A6B-489E-8143-FFEBED556523@swnl.net> Jay I too find this firmware issue questionable. there IS settings on this AGS & Inverter for disconnect using voltage AND or hz. Again voltage 110/55Hz is what I will usually start out with.These additional settings; cool down time and spin down time, I set to the lowest setting possible. This being said….. I would not be a bit surprised that some bonehead code writer had NO idea what Hz was when and IF he set this to 40 Hz. Happy new year to all! TUMP > On Dec 31, 2016, at 12:39 PM, jay wrote: > > HI Hugh, > > Interesting problem your describe which I've not seen before. > > I’m curious about your comments on Outback. > I’ve found them to be quite programable in regards to disconnecting from a generator. > You can set voltage and cycles. Default comes in at 60 cycles which is 1 second and way too long. > Setting it down to around 10 cycles works with every generator I’ve tried, and from my measurements the inverter seems to be switching on cycles, not voltage. > But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying? > > But I know in the old days before inverters got so programable ( or poorly programed in the case of the new SW) that out here on the west coast we installed a contactor which was controlled via either AGS or manual remote start. It shuts the AC off in a hard way yes, and you sure might get a light flicker but you don’t get the voltage/Hz sag being a problem here. > > And I’m not sure but seems to me that some of the older generators used to come with an internal contactor that did this? > But none that I’m seeing now do. > Maybe others can comment on that. > > And finally I’m curious about how important the cool down period is. > How I set my generator run times, by the time its told to shut down its not running all that hard, which shouldn’t be a problem. > But again, I’ll defer to the genny experts here. > > Happy new year > > jay > > > > > > > >> On Dec 30, 2016, at 1:13 AM, Hugh Piggott > wrote: >> >> hi Lou, >> >> I don’t wish to contradict this version of events but if true then it will make the inverter unsuitable for most generators. Here is another scenario I have seen a few times that looks similar but can be fixed. >> >> The inverter charges the battery etc. and decides to turn off the generator. It disconnects. It may or may not have its own “cool down” time for the generator. It then tells the generator to stop. At this point the generator control circuit may decide to run a further cool down period. Meantime incoming AC voltage is still visible to the inverter. The inverter may then decide that it is obliged to connect to this running generator. After any chosen “warm up period” it may go ahead and synch with the running generator and start to draw power just before and during the point where fuel is shut off and it dies. This causes power quality problems and errors in some inverters. Maybe better firmware could fix this. Victron inverters are designed to disconnect on a falling voltage every time, and they do so gracefully. With SMA inverters and Outbacks it’s better avoided. >> >> The best fix for this is to make sure that the generator does not have its own cool down period. If you can access and edit this parameter in the generator this is best. Another fix is to set a longer warmup time in the inverter software but this can cause issues where the generator is being started to meet a high load. In the case of an SMA inverter you can get a fix to it using “genman mode”. >> >> I just wonder if you have witnessed the process and checked whether the generator’s own built-in cool down period could be the cause. >> >> cheers >> Hugh >> >>> On 30 Dec 2016, at 00:43, Lou Russo > wrote: >>> >>> Thanks to all for the input and suggestions, it is much appreciated. Just to be clear about the situation, the inverter has already made the AC transfer, which goes smoothly. The AC IN light is off. At this point the generator is unloaded and there is no battery charging happening. The inverter is carrying the loads. From what Schnieder tells me is that the software is telling the inverter to follow the Hertz of the generator until it's below 40 Hertz. >>> >>> I do believe that manual start is best as it keeps the user in tune with system. It is what I do at my own home. Unfortunately most clients want the autostart and don't want to think about it. This is typically not deal breaker for me and I will push a client only so far on it. In this particular situation the system is 500 ft away from the home. So the autostart is mandatory. >>> >>> >> >> _________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 19:22:04 2016 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 19:22:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6 Message-ID: Greetings Dave, Which Generac controller is on this 6kW EcoGen? Some of the Generac controller instructions I have seen state that once the controller control panel fuse is removed and/or the connections to the starting battery are disconnected the exercise programming will need to be re-entered. If you have not already done so, you may want to check the controller programing and specifically the exercise feature programming. I'm wondering if this may be causing the issue you are observing. Date and time may need to be set for the controller as well. I believe the EcoGen models may come from the factory ready for 2-wire start, so hopefully the start feature programing does not need to be re-entered as well. The appropriate Generac controller instructions for the controller model you are working with should provide the password and lead you through the necessary steps. I also like the suggestions of checking the 2-wire start circuit conductors. I would remove these 2 wires from their connections at the generator and see if the issue persists. Best of luck. Let us know how this issue works out. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com ---- Original Message Bellow ---- [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6 Dave Palumbo palumbo131m at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 06:14:48 PST 2016 Wrenches, I have a 6 kW Generac EcoGen (1,300 hrs on it) with a new problem. . After swapping in a new battery the other day the generator now starts and runs when its start switch is positioned to Auto. . The OutBack inverter w Mate2 is not calling for an auto start. . Even when the EcoGen is disconnected from the off grid house it still starts and runs every time the start switch is set to Auto. How do I clear this problem and get this gen back to normal? Thanks and Happy New Year, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home