[RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D)
Christopher Warfel
cwarfel at entech-engineering.com
Tue Sep 15 16:20:13 EDT 2015
How many basements, utility rooms etc. have conductors that fail the=20
ground mounted solar array test? I hope the live parts is what is=20
protected and not the conductors themselves.
On 9/10/2015 7:32 PM, William Miller wrote:
> Ray:
>
> I apologize but I thought this discussion was off-line.
>
> Mike Holy and everyone but apparently our local AHJ agree: wire=20
> guarding is required.
>
> William
>
>
>
> On Sep 10, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com=20
> <mailto:ray at solarray.com>> wrote:
>
>> I'm confused again. Do we need to guard ground mount arrays or not? =20
>> I thought it was clear that we did need to guard the array wiring.
>>
>> R.Ray Walters
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>> Solar Design Engineer
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 9/9/2015 6:46 PM, William Miller wrote:
>>>
>>> Bill:
>>>
>>> How right you are. I spoke with Mike Stoker of the County of San=20
>>> Luis Obispo today and he told me that both you and Mike Holt are=20
>>> saying that guards are not required on readily accessible wiring. I=20
>>> sent him your recent email to me on the subject. He may be in=20
>>> touch. If you want to write him, his email is mstoker at co.slo.ca.us=20
>>> <mailto:mstoker at co.slo.ca.us>.
>>>
>>> I looked on Mike Holt=E2=80=99s site and did not see anything from Mike=
=20
>>> about wire guarding. I wrote to Mike and asked him directly. I=20
>>> will let you know what I learn.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> <mime-attachment.jpg>
>>> Lic 773985
>>> millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20
>>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of=20
>>> *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net <mailto:billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, September 05, 2015 2:21 PM
>>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D)
>>>
>>> William,
>>>
>>> You can always quote me to an AHJ, as long as I actually said it or=20
>>> wrote it.
>>>
>>> I have been accused of saying all kinds of things that I never=20
>>> said=E2=80=94people just misunderstood what I said and =E2=80=9Cquoted=
=E2=80=9D me incorrectly.
>>>
>>> All the best=E2=80=94and stay safe. Always tragic to hear of=20
>>> electrocutions=E2=80=94most are so preventable as this one clearly was.=
=20
>>> Never, ever assume that a circuit is off. I know you warned against=20
>>> inductive sensors, but they should still be used as one of several=20
>>> methods to detect voltage. I just watched a video about a guy who=20
>>> thought he was testing a 480V circuit when it was really a 12kV=20
>>> circuit. The fireball caught him on fire and burned him to death.=20
>>> The meter was the problem. An inductive sensor would have saved his=20
>>> life. There is no single method for safety.
>>>
>>> Bill.
>>>
>>> *From:*RE-wrenches=20
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of=20
>>> *William Miller
>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:37 PM
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20
>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D)
>>>
>>> Bill:
>>>
>>> I apologize that I assumed incorrectly. Thank you for your=20
>>> assessment. May I quote you to our AHJ?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> Gradient Cap_mini
>>> Lic 773985
>>> millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20
>>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of=20
>>> *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net <mailto:billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:59 PM
>>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D)
>>>
>>> William,
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99m shocked and offended (a tiny bit) that you would prejudice =
>>> yourself to not agree with me ;-).
>>>
>>> First of all I have been heavily involved in the revising of the=20
>>> language in 690.31(A) to make it clear that we cannot walk up and=20
>>> touch cables operating at 600V. The term guarded is a defined term:
>>>
>>> *Guarded. *Covered, shielded, fenced, enclosed, or otherwise
>>>
>>> protected by means of suitable covers, casings, barriers,
>>>
>>> rails, screens, mats, or platforms to remove the likelihood
>>>
>>> of approach or contact by persons or objects to a point
>>>
>>> of danger.
>>>
>>> A fence actually does not prevent ready access (unless it does not=20
>>> have a gate), but the term guarded fixes that problem. The guarding=20
>>> means has to be approved by the AHJ, but many methods have been=20
>>> employed including mounting lattice work around the backside of=20
>>> fixed ground-mounted systems.
>>>
>>> Fences are best used for larger systems (over 50-100kW) whereas=20
>>> other methods=E2=80=94albeit labor intensive=E2=80=94are generally pref=
erred for=20
>>> smaller installations (under 100 kW)
>>>
>>> No intelligent person would disagree with this proper interpretation=20
>>> of the NEC=E2=80=94including you.
>>>
>>> Bill.
>>>
>>> *From:*RE-wrenches=20
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of=20
>>> *William Miller
>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:09 PM
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20
>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D)
>>>
>>> Ray:
>>>
>>> 1.Why no fence? Aesthetics. Also costs may be a wash by the time=20
>>> you mobilize a fencing contractor.
>>>
>>> 2.I=E2=80=99d apply the same requirements to a fence as one would to an=
=20
>>> uncovered swimming pool. There are the same consequences if a child=20
>>> ends up in the wrong place.
>>>
>>> 3.Why bother?
>>>
>>> We figure the expense will decrease as we figure better design and=20
>>> implementation. Hasn=E2=80=99t yet.
>>>
>>> We care about safety. I figure we, as an industry, will kill a=20
>>> child by electrocution someday=E2=80=94it is a matter of probability. =
I=20
>>> hope it won=E2=80=99t be on one of our jobs.
>>>
>>> We hope, in some small way, we influence the industry to improve.
>>>
>>> 4.The industry has not developed solutions because there is no=20
>>> demand. There is no demand because AHJs don=E2=80=99t enforce the code.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the compliment. We have several new designs not yet=20
>>> featured on the web site. Check back next time this comes up.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> PS: I am curious what Bill Brooks take on this is, but I don=E2=80=99t =
think=20
>>> I will agree with his interpretation.
>>>
>>> W
>>>
>>> Gradient Cap_mini
>>> Lic 773985
>>> millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20
>>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of=20
>>> *Ray Walters
>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 11:37 AM
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D)
>>>
>>> WilIiam;
>>>
>>> checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean,=20
>>> but also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised=20
>>> manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame=20
>>> systems.
>>> My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading=20
>>> issues on the south?
>>> If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft?
>>>
>>> R.Ray Walters
>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>> 303 505-8760
>>>
>>> On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote:
>>>
>>> Gary:
>>>
>>> I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily
>>> accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31:
>>>
>>> /Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum/
>>>
>>> /system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in/
>>>
>>> /readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be/
>>>
>>> /guarded or installed in a raceway./
>>>
>>> I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind,
>>> but this is the question I think you are asking. The
>>> interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be
>>> able to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder,
>>> opening a locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily
>>> accessible is defined thusly:
>>>
>>> /Capable of being /
>>>
>>> /reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections/
>>>
>>> /without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite/
>>>
>>> /to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove/
>>>
>>> /obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth./
>>>
>>> Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a
>>> fence, the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim
>>> product or fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a
>>> fair amount of effort towards this. See link
>>> <http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/Wire_sh=
ielding/_Wire%20Shielding_history.html>.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> Gradient Cap_mini
>>> Lic 773985
>>> millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> *From:*RE-wrenches
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf
>>> Of *gary easton
>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D)
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a
>>> ground array?
>>>
>>> On Friday, September 4, 2015, <billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words =E2=80=9Clive
>>> parts=E2=80=9D. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it =
is
>>> actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV
>>> system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are
>>> being removed from 690.
>>>
>>> This is a complete non-issue.
>>>
>>> Bill.
>>>
>>> *From:*RE-wrenches
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches=
.org');>]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM
>>> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org');>
>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How is everyone handling 690.7 (D)
>>>
>>> *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family
>>> dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and
>>> photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not
>>> be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are
>>> you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from
>>> touching live conductors PV wires)?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your thoughts
>>>
>>> --=20
>>>
>>> Yours in Solardarity,
>>>
>>> =20
>>>
>>> Craig Gerald Buttke
>>>
>>> =20
>>>
>>> M:(715) 630-1227
>>>
>>> O:(715) 630-6451
>>>
>>> F:(715) 952-4501
>>>
>>> =20
>>>
>>> North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC
>>>
>>> 1626C W Pearl Street
>>>
>>> Stevens Point, WI 54481
>>>
>>> =20
>>>
>>> www.northwindre.com <http://www.northwindre.com>
>>>
>>> =20
>>>
>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional=E2=84=A2
>>>
>>> NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional=E2=84=A2
>>>
>>> State of WI: Master Electrician
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
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--=20
Christopher Warfel, President
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978
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